What if…An Executor-class Star Dreadnought arrived in UNSC controlled space?

Executor-class Star Dreadnought arrived in UNSC controlled space

So the full question is:
What if…A fully crewed and equipped Executor-class Star Dreadnought arrived in UNSC controlled space prior to the fall of Reach, with no means of returning home?

How would they react to encountering such a primitive tribe of humans?
What would be the reaction of the UNSC?
Would the SSD Admiral even reveal his presence to the UNSC?
Would UNSC diplomats attempt to negotiate a pact, or draw them into the Covenant-Human war?
If so, how well would the Covenant Empire fare against a fully armed and equipped Executor-class Star Dreadnought?
Or, would they just bugger off to another part of the galaxy and ignore everyone all together?

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251 Comments on "What if…An Executor-class Star Dreadnought arrived in UNSC controlled space?"

  1. the_man_with The_Answers May 19, 2009 at 6:39 pm -      #101

    Sorry that meant to read

    But I hardly think an armour less cloneis better than an armour less SPARTAN.

    Cant blame that one on my computer, lol.

  2. ociee117 May 22, 2009 at 11:05 pm -      #102

    Mac guns would slowly rip the ship apart (not to mention a A- wing to the bridge destroyed it) do not underestimate the unsc.

  3. the_man_with The_Answers May 23, 2009 at 8:12 pm -      #103

    Why would they fight? They are both humans. Now that the Emporer isn’t controlling, I see a window for a new, peaceful Empire.

  4. sangheli_special_ops_elite June 5, 2009 at 12:09 am -      #104

    Why would they fight? They are both humans. Now that the Emporer isn’t controlling, I see a window for a new, peaceful Empire

    wait? if the emperor palpatian and darth vader are dead who is controlling the empire? Who is leading the clones? wait….? where are the clones anyway?

  5. the_man_with The_Answers June 6, 2009 at 9:39 pm -      #105

    to answer that

    DV and the emporer arn’t there
    the highest in command on the ship
    on the ship

  6. L-W July 7, 2009 at 7:31 am -      #106

    “Mac guns would slowly rip the ship apart (not to mention a A- wing to the bridge destroyed it) do not underestimate the unsc.”

    Do you feel like proving that? Or are you happy wallowing in your ignorance?

  7. Gus July 13, 2009 at 12:58 am -      #107

    Personally, I think anything in the form of a missle would pass through the SSD’s shields. It happen in Empire At War. The Rebel corvettes missles passed through the Empire ships shields. Also, if the SSD ran into a Covenant Long-Range patrol the SSD would draw first blood. The Covenant, however would just send a fleet to engage the SSD. The SSD wouldn’t stand a chance against an entire Covenant fleet (superior numbers…duh). It would be cool to see Master Chief, or a Spartan fighting with Stormtroopers!

  8. L-W July 13, 2009 at 2:13 am -      #108

    1) “Personally, I think anything in the form of a missle would pass through the SSD’s shields.”

    Even though ray shielding is reliably proven to block missiles, meteors, star fighters and even entire starships impacting at high speeds.

    2) “It happen in Empire At War. The Rebel corvettes missles passed through the Empire ships shields.”

    I’ve also played F-15 Strike Eagle II, and in that game, an F-15 can take a half-dozen direct hits from SAM’s before it goes down (in reality, one proximity hit will kill it easily). Can we agree that it’s silly to use computer gameplay as a basis for technological assessments?

    3) “Also, if the SSD ran into a Covenant Long-Range patrol the SSD would draw first blood.”

    Your understanding of inter-species diplomacy is astounding, especially when the Empire belongs to a galaxy of over twenty million sentient species, whilst the Covenant have violently opposed, warred with and absorbed the handful of races they’ve encountered.

    4) “The Covenant, however would just send a fleet to engage the SSD. The SSD wouldn’t stand a chance against an entire Covenant fleet (superior numbers…duh). It would be cool to see Master Chief, or a Spartan fighting with Stormtroopers!”

    Numbers really don’t count for much when just one of the five thousand independently operated guns that line the hull of the Star Destroyer can fry even an Assault Carrier with just one shot.

    Look over the mathematics to see why you are wrong. Even the light turbolasers designed for accurate point shooting are capable of hundreds of megatons worth of damage, which would be devastating when you considering how effective low megaton nuclear warheads are against Covenant shields. Medium turbolasers are rated at two hundred gigatons, whilst the heavier turrets are capable of launching continent busting salvos in the teraton range; with each turret capable of firing one bolt per second on average at a range of millions of kilometers, even the largest Covenant fleet ever assembled in the history of existence would last only a few seconds against a Super Star Destroyer.

    This of course doesn’t take into account superior Imperial shielding (rated at 3.8 × 10E26 W), propulsion systems and point defence weaponry.

  9. The_man_with The_Answers August 4, 2009 at 1:42 pm -      #109

    Hey has anyone figured out how powerful Onyx is? If no one else does I will.

  10. Megaraptor18 August 4, 2009 at 1:49 pm -      #110

    That warship is strong enough to destroy every thing in that universe

  11. Sam the heretic August 8, 2009 at 7:46 am -      #111

    Man…hulk lands in the Warp…

  12. Frieza August 11, 2009 at 1:14 am -      #112

    I have already knocked down the ICS wank-a-tons and other stuff in Halo vs Star Wars. Not only that I see once again that L-W is using *shudder* Halopedia data!
    To all who read Halopedia to get data on Halo ships: NEVER TRUST ANYTHING FROM THAT SITE! They pull numbers out of their asses left and right at that sight.
    The Nova is easily an Exaton warhead that would one shot even an SSD.

    I have the damn quote to prove it.

    Page 245 Halo: Ghost of Onyx.

    A heartbeat later Vice Admiral Whitcomb’s ploy of slipping
    the UNSC prototype Nova bomb into Covenant supplies had fi-
    nally paid off: a star ignited between Joyous Exultation and its
    Every ship not protected on the dark side of the planet boiled
    and vaporized in an instant.
    The atmosphere of the planet wavered as helical spirals of
    luminescent particles lit both north and south poles, making cur-
    tains of blue and green ripple over the globe. As the thermonu-
    clear pressure wave spread and butted against the thermosphere,
    it heated the air orange, compressed it, until it touched the
    ground and scorched a quarter of the world.
    The tiny nearby moon Malhiem cracked and shattered into a
    billion rocky fragments and clouds of dust.
    The overpressure force subsided, and three-hundred-
    kilometer-per-hour winds swept over Joyous Exultation, obliter-
    ating cities and whipping tidal waves over coastlines.
    The Covenant Schism–the shattering of its client races for a thousand years, and the genesis of their end–had truly began. End quote.

    And now to shoot down those stupid ICS wank-a-tons.

    Page one of Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith.

    The gnats are drive-glows of starfighters. The shining
    hairlines are light-scatter from turbolaser bolts powerful
    enough to VAPORIZE A SMALL TOWN. The planetoids are cap-
    ital ships. End quote.

    Here is how the Star Wars canon works: Lucas and the movies>the movie novels>EU books>SW games>ICS etc. ICS may be canon but it is so low in the canon layers that it is overruled by higher sources. In the Hatt Gambit they even show that a BDZ is not the over wanked thing we all hear about.
    I can get the book out later and quote it. But an SSD taking on every ship in the Covenant fleet? It maybe worth a few dozen CCS Battlecruisers if it can get within firing range of ships with a 9+ light second range with the Plasma Torpedos.
    And even then in what system will this ship appear? Reach system or Sol?
    It would take decades for that ship to scout out safe Hyperspace routes that don’t have mass shadows just waiting to pull it out of Hyperdpace and rip it apart.
    If the ship is at the battle of Reach I would expect Covenant losses to at most double to 500 ships out of the 750 that attacked it.

    And all that stuff about millions of kilometers weapons ranges better shields and stuff is just non-canon/lowest end canon ICS shit. Using nothing but the highest canon sources the movies we know that turbolaser don’t have an effetive range of more then 7000 kilometers will an Energy Projector can be used at least 100,000 kilometers away from the target. And an SSD with better shields? I doubt that it has 900 wank-a-ton shields as is being said since we never see anything like 200 GT explosions on screen. The Covenant can just fly in around out of range using pin-point Slipspace jumps if that ship gets to close.
    A small Covenant fleet of 36 ships is more then enough to to wipe an SSD from the face of the Galaxy. If you don’t believe me look at what I have posted about Imperial ships in Halo vs Star Wars. I have shot down every damn ICS quote there.

  13. Frieza August 11, 2009 at 1:29 am -      #113

    And here is Wookieepedia on Hyperdrive Navigation.

    Because of the danger of mass shadows (not to mention
    interdicting pirates), hyperspace course had to be plotted
    with great caution. Very few beings other then power Jedi
    could react while traveling at many times the speed of light,
    and in any case conventional sensors and communicators
    could not receive information faster than lightspeed.
    Even subspace sensors, which operated along an alternate
    dimension and propogate faster than light, could not keep up
    with the vast speeds of hyperspace travel. Thus, precise
    advanvce knowledge of the celestial bodies along the way was necessary in the form of navigational computers.
    These devices, also known as nav comps or navicomputers by spacers, contained detailed star charts and the ability to make astronavigational calculations quickly from one point to another before a jump was taken.

    Imperial Super Star Destoyer=Slug. Even if the UNSC gave them data now that I think about it they would still have to check for mass shadows since the UNSC never had a reason to do that. The reason for that is in Slipstreamspace nothing can harm you–you can pass through planets, stars etc. and there would be no effect on you or the really space object. All that thing would do is do a tiny bit more damage to the vast Covenant Navy if it is in the Reach system.

  14. Frieza August 11, 2009 at 2:06 am -      #114

    I just read another of L-W’s post on how he calc the NOVA blast radius, I ask: HOW!
    We don’t know a thing about how close that moon was, how far above the planet the bomb was but considering the effects and the fact that it is a magic Sci-fi nuke of doom I think it should do will. Or are you once again using, *shudder* Halopedia.
    The Vice Admiral said a “a bomb like that would crack their home world in two”, I am not one to take this stuff at face value but then he is a Vice Admiral that seems to have been working on the NOVA project since he is the one to call in the Spartans to help him…and then we have what I have quoted.
    Look at the effects that I have quoted and I don’t think that even if we go with the non-canon/lowest canon of all, ICS, that an SSD could take that bomb without losing shields at least.

  15. Frieza August 13, 2009 at 4:33 am -      #115

    Here is the quotes from The Hutt Gambit.

    Han tensed, but made himself stay calm. He could tell Greelanx was
    really tempted. “Sir, what are your orders?” he asked. “Perhaps we
    can think of something that will benefit us both, and yet leave you
    free of any charge of wrongdoing.”
    Greelanx laughed bitterly, a short, bitten-off laugh. “Hardly, young
    My orders are to enter the Hutt system, execute order Base Delta Zero
    upon the Smuggler’s Moon, Nar Shaddaa, and then blockade Nal Hutta and
    complete military presence on their worlds. The Moff doesn’t want to
    cripple the Hutts too badly, but he wants Nar Shaddaa reduced to
    Han swallowed, his mouth dry. Base Delta Zero was an order that called
    for the decimation of a world–all life, all vessels, all systems–even droids were to be CAPTURED or destroyed. His worse nightmare come
    ture. End part one of quote.

    And this is from later in the book.

    The worst problem, as far as Fel was concerned, was implementing order
    Base Delta Zero on Nar Shaddaa.
    Fel knew that last wasn’t Greelanx’s fault. The Sector Moff had issued
    that order. But in the admiral’s place, Fel would have at least tried
    to get Sam Shild to modify that instruction. The Emperor’s directive
    had been to shut down the smuggling operations out of Nar Shaddaa and other smuggler nests, especially the gunrunners. The directive hadn’t
    included anything about razing the entire moon. Fel had had
    considerable combat experience, and he knew that sentients of most
    species would fight like cornered Corellian vrelts when it came to
    protecting their homes and families.
    There were millions of sentients on Nar Shaddaa, many of whom were only
    peripherally involved with the smuggling business. Elderly sentients,
    children…Soontir Fel grimaced.
    This would be his first Imperial-ordered massacre. He’d been lucky to
    avoid such an order for this long, the wya things were going.
    Fel would carry out his orders, but he wasn’t ha[[y about them. He
    knew images of the flaming buildings would haunt him, as he gave each
    order to fire. And afterward…they’d have to SEND DOWN SHUTTLES
    AND GROUND TROOPS TO MOP UP, and he, Fe, being a conscientious
    commander, would have to oversee that operation.
    Visions of smoking rubble strewn with blackened corpses filled his
    mind, and Fel took a deep breath. End quote.

    Now the small fleet that was going to carry out this BDZ was a few Dreadnoughts, Bulk Cruisers and light scout cruisers.

    And now the end to 1 ISD doing a Covenant like glassing from SW: Death Star.

    True, you could still pump out some pretty nast low-power
    beams–and the definition of low here was still BIGGER THAN WHAT A STAR
    DESTROYER COULD MANAGE, even letting all the hardware spit at once–but
    it would be a duster instead of a buster. You could scorch a city or two,
    boil away a large lake or prehaps even a small sea, but that was about it.

    End Quote.

    SO I really don’t see what an oversized slug of a target that is easily out ranged by Covenant ships is going to do. On it being out range we have the movies showing all fighting within 7000km down to a few hundredkm.
    So how is this a threat to a Covenant fleet that can just fly around millions of kilometers away and fire off plasma torpedos at half of c until it blows?
    This thing will be stuck in one system, it has a far shorter weapons range then a Covenant or UNSC and could over all go toe to toe with a few dozen CCS Battlecruisers if the Ship Masters were stupid enough to get within its greatly limited range.

    Chalk this up as a Halo victory in the end since this thing would be stuck in one system for decades until it can use smaller Hyperspace capable ships to find a safe route out of system.

  16. Frieza August 13, 2009 at 4:49 am -      #116

    And here is a quote on a Covenant glassing using plasma torpedos.

    Page 8 The Fall of Reach

    Three dozen Covenant ships–big ones, destroyers and
    cruisers–winked into view in the system. They were sleek,
    looking more like sharks than starcraft. Their lateral lines
    brightened with plasma–then discharged and rained fire
    down upon Jericho VII.
    The Chief watched for an hour and didn’t move a muscle.
    The planet’s lakes, rivers, and oceans vaporized. By to-
    morrow, the atmosphere would boil away, too. Fields and
    forest were glassy smooth and glowing red-hot in patches.
    Where there had once been paradise, only hell remained. End quote.

    Just a small battlegroup would have enough firepower to destroy an SSD once we remove the ICS which is the lowest of all SW canon.
    I really just can’t see this as a threat against anything even from the UNSC; since even the UNSC engage from more then 10,000km away from Covenant fleets.

  17. Frieza August 23, 2009 at 6:39 am -      #117

    Now since we know that the SSD is either sitting around for a few decades or going to get blown up during the Battle of Reach can we get a picture of it being destroyed by the 1065+ ships around High Charity for the victroy plaque? I think that would be perfect.

  18. omega-88 August 23, 2009 at 1:39 pm -      #118

    shut up frieza the empire wins. the empire BLOW!!!! up the coventants.

  19. Cpt Olimar August 23, 2009 at 4:18 pm -      #119

    the SDD decides to have fun and solos the entire UNSC and Covenant army. After destroying their primitive enemies, the SDD figures out a way to get back to the SW galaxy.

  20. Frieza August 24, 2009 at 1:44 am -      #120

    Why is it when I post canon from both sides you all just conveniently miss or forget what I post?

    On size of the Covenant Supercarrier here are the most likely sizes:
    7.7 kilometers or 11.7 kilometers.

  21. Space marine August 24, 2009 at 3:15 am -      #121

    Frieza, The only reason we ignore you is because you are wrong. I disproved your crap novel canon.

    Can you say conjecture?

  22. Black Hand August 24, 2009 at 5:39 am -      #122

    I can think of 3 reasons.

    First you refuse to use certain incarnations of star wars despite the fact that all other Star Wars related debate use them. Even when members of this site prefer the opposing universe over Star Wars they still allow all incarnations.

    Secondly you tend to jump into debates only to create many many long posts (im counting 5 in a row here) and treat it as Proof rather than facts to be discussed. While not exactly among the greatest of evil things to do it gives people the impression of fanboyism.

    And finaly you have a tendency to give overly optimistic results to your chosen side. For example based on the scale comparison of High Charity, The Keyship and various Covenant Capital ships on Halopedia we see that the Keyship itself is 14 km in height and more than twice the length of any covenant ship. Making even 7.7 ambitious.

    Don’t bother replying, i wont reply in turn

  23. Didact August 24, 2009 at 8:25 am -      #123

    “the SDD decides to have fun and solos the entire UNSC and Covenant army. After destroying their primitive enemies, the SDD figures out a way to get back to the SW galaxy.”

    And if the SDD meets the forerunner dreadnaught,the dreadnaught would rip it and leaves nothing than dust.

  24. Didact August 24, 2009 at 8:27 am -      #124

    “the SDD decides to have fun and solos the entire UNSC and Covenant army. After destroying their primitive enemies, the SDD figures out a way to get back to the SW galaxy.”

    And if the SDD meets the forerunner dreadnaught,the dreadnaught would rip it and leaves nothing than dust.

    The dreadnaught would throw it back to their galaxy because the SDD can’t go into hyperspace(pffff losers)

  25. Didact August 24, 2009 at 8:46 am -      #125

    “Why is it when I post canon from both sides you all just conveniently miss or forget what I post?”

    The truth hurts the star wars fans,that’s why.

  26. lamefellow August 24, 2009 at 9:56 am -      #126

    Here we go again…..

    The Executor: starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Executor

    Your quotes prove nothing about the nova bombs actual yield. We don’t even know the density of the moon nor it’s make up. It’s possible to blow a moon with 30 gigatons. All we know is that it is tiny.

    Your quote from Revenge of the Sith: Just shows that a single turbolaser shot can vaporise a small town. The perfect BDZ’s would be turning the whole planet to slag but that also depends on a lot of factors. Sometimes it just doesn’t happen.

    Tractor beams on the SSD would cause havoc on a majority of convy ships due to its mass.

    Your issue with cannon: It’s the same as Halo. Just because a convy banshee doesn’t dent a tree in game doesn’t mean it’s the same in the actual Halo universe. It’s the same with Star Wars. They are considered cannon unless Lucas wants to change parts of the story, then cannon is revoked where applicable.

    The admiral might just make himself a warlord, taking over the UNSC military. And there would be no fall of Reach. Just the massacre of Reach.

  27. Prime Chaos August 24, 2009 at 10:03 am -      #127

    Admin! Frieza’s spamming another post with stupidity! Please make him stop.

  28. lamefellow August 24, 2009 at 10:07 am -      #128

    Lol….I spelled canon wrongly. Woops..

    Btw if Halopedia can’t be used. A lot of fluff used to defend Halo is made out of speculations and flowery descriptions.

    I.E. “We don’t know a thing about how close that moon was, how far above the planet the bomb was but considering the effects and the fact that it is a magic Sci-fi nuke of doom I think it should do will.”

    All we know is that it blew a tiny moon to bits. So we can conclude we no nothing worth debating about. Because in Star Wars, a turbolaser can vaporise a small town. And a small town is a few kms in radius after all. So that means it can vapourise a convy ship since a convy ship is not as large as a small town. =/

    See how ridiculous the logic flow gets?

  29. Didact August 24, 2009 at 10:29 am -      #129


    Did you read first strike?Admiral withcomb said that a nova bomb would crack a planet in two.

    A small town has no shields,a coveant ship has.You are the one with ridiculous statements,comparing a starship with a small town.

    “Btw if Halopedia can’t be used. A lot of fluff used to defend Halo is made out of speculations and flowery descriptions. ”

    No our facts are from games and novels(terminals,ghosts of onyx,halo 2,….)

    “Your issue with cannon: It’s the same as Halo. Just because a convy banshee doesn’t dent a tree in game doesn’t mean it’s the same in the actual Halo universe. It’s the same with Star Wars. They are considered cannon unless Lucas wants to change parts of the story, then cannon is revoked where applicable. ”

    Game mechanics aren’t canon.While the star wars novels are fan fiction and became cannon,written by fans.That’s not in case with halo,bungie has the halo story bible and everything of halo is stored inside the bible.
    I’ve also heard that a star destroyer could destroy the surface of a planet in a hour,that’s not possible because an executor alone takes hourssss to do that.

  30. matapiojo August 24, 2009 at 11:45 am -      #130

    @Frieza / Didact

    Tempting as it might be, I don’t think I need to tear you guys a new hole in this debate as well. I left you sore enough on SW Vs Halo.

    Bottom line, you have given no “facts” on either debate. You fellas are grossly optimistic with the number (or lack of) facts known about your glorified Dreadnought.

    Let it go already.

  31. Pondering Fool August 24, 2009 at 11:59 am -      #131

    “Tempting as it might be, I don’t think I need to tear you guys a new hole in this debate as well. I left you sore enough on SW Vs Halo.

    Alas, this is the only other universe-like topic with “Halo vs Star Wars ” theme. Every time I go to Halo vs Star Wars thread, i get “HTTP 500 Internal Server”
    So unfortunate…….I so want to see the newest post! Sad to say I wont be able to see Mata’s newest post…….

    - pondering fool

  32. Black Hand August 24, 2009 at 12:15 pm -      #132


    aye im having the same issue. I really wonder why this is so.

    And It seems this has become their new playground after said stomping in the SW vs halo thread

  33. lamefellow August 24, 2009 at 9:03 pm -      #133

    “A small town has no shields,a coveant ship has.You are the one with ridiculous statements,comparing a starship with a small town.”

    You misread me again…It was example of how your statements are likewise in essence ridiculous which you seem to agree here. Btw convie shields aren’t that powerful to begin with.

    “Did you read first strike?Admiral withcomb said that a nova bomb would crack a planet in two.”

    The titanic was claimed to be unsinkable and it sank like a rock. It’s more likely a metaphor or highly dependent on the planets make up. Same reason why BDZ doesn’t make a planet slag all the time. An example to help, compare a planet made out of gas or an earth like one. One would show more destruction when fired into.

    “I’ve also heard that a star destroyer could destroy the surface of a planet in a hour,that’s not possible because an executor alone takes hourssss to do that..”

    Here it talks about melting the entire crust not just the upper layer in my opinion due to the yields it’s turbolasers are capable of. Lots of difference.

    This thread is suppose to be on a executor coming into UNSC space, so I’ll stop here.

  34. Frieza August 25, 2009 at 12:57 am -      #134

    I have shot down TL yields there well with the quote from SW: DS.
    And melting the entire crust? I thought Wong’s site said it was only the upper 3 meters of the crust.
    So what hath the EU spawn now? I mean why would they waste power slaging the entire crust when they (correct me if I’m wrong) wanted to save energy in ANH by not firing on the escape pod?
    So now could someone quote where an ISD of the Imperial era did a BDZ like this? That is another thing I find annoying is I see all these claims and the only thing I see cite as a source is ICS and Wookiepedia but nothing else.
    But here are some more (possible non-canon like the partly N canon ICS) canon sources that go against the non-canon version of the BDZ:

    And then that quote I gave in no way mention another type of BDZ that has the entire crust being melted. We know that Han is a former Imperial Officer and he didn’t think about the crust being melted down, no we get capturing or destroy droids and the buring buildings on Nar Shadda that would have Imperial troops running around on the surface. That capture part is hard when your slaging everyting ya’ know.

    And another quote from The Hutt Gambit, page 315.

    Dovlis looked around, feeling desperate. Without en-
    gines, he could’t escape. The SMUGGLER SHIPS WERE TOO

    The sumgglers only had a hundred or so ships, only a few with heavy weapons to attack this Dreadnought with one with will the rest of the fleet was fighting a force of ships that were really holos.
    Now why should a Captain of a warship fear such small ships that throw around a few kilotons to low megatons from lasers and midMT torpeods when the hull should take gigatons by ICS standards.
    And then of course they did take down part of the shield pretty quick before this part. How much more must I quote to shoot down the wank-a-tons for good?
    And on that small town part there is more at that site I linked to, though I haven’t had time to look around more then the TL Firepower section and the one on BDZ.

    Post your damn link again and then quote me the part that says “even though Joseph Staten, the writing Director for Bungie Studios wrote the book Contact Harvest all of them are just fan fiction even though we approved them (not including TFoR, because it was rush, done in about 9 weeks).” Quote me the part that tells YOU that Halo books are non-canon, I know you don’t have anything but go ahead.

    And to post 133 by @ lamefellow: why would the UNSC bomb a gas giant?
    And of course it would depend on the planet’s make up, but then this bomb was meant to level the playing field in space and not really to be used on planets.
    Until we know the distance between the moon and the ship the bomb was on we can’t really do anything… But then why would a huge Supercarrier be floating around within a few kilometers of a small moon so that 30 gig nuke could blow it up? I mean no matter how close a 30 gig nuke was it would never do that sort of damage to the planet from space.

    And lets look at that quote from SW:DS again: how large a lake is it talking about?
    I don’t doubt that it can destroy a city but what are we talking about here?
    Something like the Great Lakes. or a far smaller lake say a few km across and a few hundred feet deep?

    And another thing I just thought of: if they had these wank-a-tons that they can fire so fast then why didn’t they blow away most of that asteroid belt in TESB?

  35. Didact August 25, 2009 at 7:33 am -      #135

    @pondering fool

    Me to with that problem.


    I was going to prove you wrong until ,that stupid http 500 came.Saying that a gravity well would stop slipspace,and about that star forge,kwa,blalblablab….

  36. Didact August 25, 2009 at 7:48 am -      #136

    If you would compare an unshielded executor with an unshielded forerunner dreadnaught.

    I doubt that an unshielded exucutor would survive an attack of 4 mac guns and hundreds of longswords fighters.


    No whitcomb was talking about the covenant homeworld and their planets are rocks like earth.

    That nova bomb was detonated between the moon and the planet.

    hALO NOVELS ARE CANON,everything is from the halo story bible.

    and about the star wars canon,this information is from wookiepedia:

    G (George Lucas) canon is absolute canon. This category includes the six films, some of the deleted scenes from the films, the novelizations of the films, the radio dramas based on the films, the film scripts, and any material found in any other source (published or not) that comes directly from George Lucas himself. G CANON OUTRANKS AND OVERRIDES ALL OTHER FORMS OF CANON WHEN THERE IS A CONTRADICTION.

    T[1] canon refers to the canon level comprising only the two television shows: Star Wars: The Clone Wars and the Star Wars live-action TV series.

    C (continuity) canon refers to the main body of EU work, and is the next most authoritative level of canon. All material published under the Star Wars label but not falling into either G, S, or N is C canon, and is considered authoritative as long as not contradicted by G canon. Games are a special case as generally only the stories would be “C-canon” while things like stats and gameplay are “N-canon”. If the video game has several possible ends or if the player can choose the gender or the species of the main character, only one of each is considered C-canon. C-canon elements have been known to appear in the movies, thus making them G-canon. (This includes: the name “Coruscant”, swoop bikes, Aayla Secura, YT-2400 freighters or Action VI Transports.)

    S (secondary) canon refers to older, less accurate, or less coherent EU works, which would not ordinarily fit in the main continuity of G and C canon. Unless referenced by a G or C-level source, the story itself is considered non-continuity, but the non-contradicting elements are still a canon part of the Star Wars universe. For example, this includes The Star Wars Holiday Special, the Marvel comics, or the popular online roleplaying game Star Wars Galaxies and certain elements of a few N-canon stories.

    N continuity material is also known as “non-canon” or “non-continuity” material. What-if stories (such as those published under the Infinities label), game stats, and anything else that is directly contradicted by higher canon and cannot at all fit into continuity is placed into this category. “N-canon” is the only level that is not at all considered


  37. lamefellow August 25, 2009 at 8:04 am -      #137

    Errr… Freiza, there’s no Star Destroyer at the battle of Nar Shaddaa. That was an old dreadnought. Very different a dreadnought from a SD, let alone an SSD. Read properly.

    That website you used didn’t show any calculations. Go read L-W post and see the calculations something which you lack to show. Besides, they did it on Jabiim in the darkhorse comic. Also, wookiepedia and ICS are suppose to be reliable.

    “These books would represent the most thorough research ever done on these vehicles and would receive Lucasfilm’s formal imprimatur as canon. These volumes would henceforth be sent out to licensees as reference guides and would become useful manuals for Industrial Light & Magic, where some of the artwork influenced details in Episodes I and II.”
    ―Star Wars Insider 68, page 36

    You and Didact obviously don’t get the part about small towns and gas planet analogy. Nvm..made my point. You’re also assuming a 30 gig nuke can’t do much.

  38. Didact August 25, 2009 at 8:40 am -      #138

    “Tempting as it might be, I don’t think I need to tear you guys a new hole in this debate as well. I left you sore enough on SW Vs Halo.

    Bottom line, you have given no “facts” on either debate. You fellas are grossly optimistic with the number (or lack of) facts known about your glorified Dreadnought.”

    So you say we give no facts?We are the ones who give quotes from novels, we provide quotes from games.You have given nothing . I think you all are dreaming.

    Want to hear the facts about Dreadnaught from the terminals? Okay, I’ll give some.

    “Either by initiating their self-destruct sequences, or by opening unrestricted ruptures into [slipstream space]. ”

    “I throw away all the rules of acceptable conduct during battle; near the ruptures I throw away all the accepted ideas of how the natural world is supposed to behave. I toss around [37,654 tonne] dreadnoughts like they were fighters; dimly aware of the former crews being crushed to liquescence.

    For now all my concentration is focused on inertial control and navigation. Targeting isn’t even a consideration – I will be engaging my enemy at arm’s length. ”

    “05-032 abandoned the tactic of using derelict ships as cover after [72:S] – It seems that 52 core vessels lost to the ruptured fuel cells of derelict ships was lesson enough. Add another 508 lost to collision, point fire, structural failure due to inertial manipulation, and [slipstream space] induced discoherence and I now outnumber Mendicant [6:1].”

    “Unknown; The High Prophet of Truth’s flag ship is heavily armed (seeing as it was able to smash through an entire Sangheili Fleet by itself); Forerunner ship’s had the capability to cause stellar collapse”

    And about the apex fleet,we don’t know the true size of it.It will maybe revealed in the halo encyclopedia.But regret said this:

    “Regret: The war with the Humans will require a great deal many more machines than we can currently muster.”

    So the apex fleet may be larger than the entire covenant armada together but there is no proof,we will have to wait until the halo encycloped

  39. omega-88 August 25, 2009 at 10:42 am -      #139

    I venture that The forunners are weaker than the Galactic Empire. The Empire has more men and their tech is better than the forunners and forunners have little superwapons the rings and everything the DA. deatstar goes to the 8 rings and destroyes the Rings. ahahahha forunners are not smart FORUNNERS ARE THE LOSSER !!!!!!!!!!

  40. Pondering Fool August 25, 2009 at 10:45 am -      #140


    Mmmhhh i think this is the divide in the whole “Halo vs Star Wars” thread.

    The Halo fans believe that the books are ultimate canon and bring forth their arguments from there. The Star Wars fans say that the Halo fans are just making alot of conjucture and ignoring the stats of the Halo Games

    The Star Wars fans believe that the EU is the same level of Canon as the Movies, but mostly the Halo Trio disagree. They believe EU is non-canon or low-level canon compared to the Movies so all the Star Wars fans’ claims are discounted.

    All-powerful Admin, creator of the Great BankGambling, may you please use your judgement and tell each side what is true Canon? This argument has been going to long, and is really starting to tick your pondering fool off.

    - the humble and always,
    pondering fool

    As I’ve always maintained from my personal perspective (not saying it’s right) – I’ve always gone back to the origin of the first appearance of the character/story. For Halo, that would be video games and for Star Wars, it would be the movies that would be the media source of origin. Perhaps in the future for all these debates, the timeframe of each character/universe needs to be stated, otherwise, by default it falls to the current state of the franchise. Does this help? – Admin

  41. Cpt Olimar August 25, 2009 at 10:53 am -      #141

    “Several thousand frigates versus 19km worth of turbolasers, point defense cannons, missile tubes a full compliment of TIE fighters and a shield rated at 3.8 × 10E26 W; which is the equivelant output of a small star. There are more guns attached to this vessel than there are ships in the entirety of the human fleet.”

    Why is this so hard to understand… Read the number on the shielding and weep. If halo even tries to attack this ship it will be all for nothing.

    “Did you read first strike?Admiral withcomb said that a nova bomb would crack a planet in two.”

    it’s called exageration, you think a bomb between 30-200 gigs can crack a planet in two? Really? Then I guess you don’t understand much about the scope of this fight at all.

  42. Matapiojo August 25, 2009 at 11:10 am -      #142

    “I have shot down TL yields there well with the quote from SW: DS”

    No you have not. The numbers are readily available in numerous SW media. Your quote means nothing.

    “I was going to prove you wrong until ,that stupid http 500 came.Saying that a gravity well would stop slipspace,and about that star forge,kwa,blalblablab….”

    How convenient….

    “If you would compare an unshielded executor with an unshielded forerunner dreadnaught.

    I doubt that an unshielded exucutor would survive an attack of 4 mac guns and hundreds of longswords fighters.”

    Based on what? How would you compare these damage output claims against bare Allusteel? Show me your figures.

    “hALO NOVELS ARE CANON,everything is from the halo story bible.

    and about the star wars canon,this information is from wookiepedia:”

    Back to this? You run to this shelter far quicker than most debaters oposing SW.

    EU is canon. Get over it.

    “Want to hear the facts about Dreadnaught from the terminals? Okay, I’ll give some.”

    Explain the relevance of those. They mean nothing without an argument to substantiate them.

    Numbers mean very little when a single Heavy Turbolaser (out of the 2,000 the executor has) can decimate the weak Covenant shields as well as crack the hull clean to the oposite side.

    So far you have yet to show me anything that withstands a shot fired at light speeds with a yield of 22 gigatons.

    2,000 Heavy Turbolaser shots (nevermind the 2,000 Standard Turbolasers with 180ish megatons yield or the Proton Torpedo launchers) x 22 gt = 44,000 gigatons that may come to bare on a single target.

    Note that a single Heavy Turbolaser shot has enough kinetic yield to cause multiple extinction-events on a planet the size of earth:

    “The impact energy released during the geologic ages of each extinction event is at least 10 million megatons of TNT equivalent yield per geologic age. Lucas believes that this could represent a minimum impact energy required to cause a global-scale mass extinction.” – Michael Lucas

    These are numbers. Figures. Exact math.

    You give me hyperbole with your nova-bomb conjecture. I give you figures that show a single shot capable of killing a planet. Nevermind the remaining 1,999 shots.

    You guys like to quote a lot, but those quotes give no facts. Those quotes give jump-points for your outlandish conjectural arguments. Where is the quote that says this:
    “I saw the planet split in two from the Nova Bomb explosion”, or…

    “The Forerunner Dreadnought jumped out of slipspace and fired a single blast into the sun. In mere moments, the star went supernova. Decimating all life on the galaxy”.

    …well. There is none.

  43. Matapiojo August 25, 2009 at 11:20 am -      #143

    “Did you read first strike?Admiral withcomb said that a nova bomb would crack a planet in two.”

    Conjecture – con·jec·ture
    a : inference from defective or presumptive evidence b : a conclusion deduced by surmise or guesswork c : a proposition (as in mathematics) before it has been proved or disproved

    Hyperbole – hy·per·bo·le
    a: extravagant exaggeration (as “mile-high ice-cream cones”)

    Speculation – spec·u·la·tion
    a: conjectural consideration of a matter
    I felt I needed to provide these definitions for the benefit of others. Hopefully this will help dim the repetitious nature of debaters whom resort to these elements as points to launch arguments.

  44. Pondering Fool August 25, 2009 at 11:46 am -      #144

    @ Admin

    Thanks mate for the response. So, could you (as you are the great Admin),
    post what is Canon before a match? Or at least, give some guidelines, so
    people aren’t calling each other heretic for using this canon or that.
    Thanks mate, and love BankGambling!!!!!

    - pondering fool

  45. Megaraptor18 August 26, 2009 at 1:50 am -      #145

    How the Hell did the Star Wars vs Halo debate get on this thread. Ok I understand if it got on this thread

    What If…The Halo and Star Wars Universes Collided?

    But not this one is dumbest place to fight this battle.

    If you get a “HTTP 500 Internal Server” do what most people do, WAIT for the thread to be fixed. Fighting the Star Wars vs Halo thread here is pure dumbness.

    Someone was dumb enough to say Halo victory on this thread. It’s a WHAT IF thread not a VS or a Universe battle thread. In a what if thread there are no winners. All you folk return to the Star Wars vs Halo thread and continue this debate in there ok.

    Maybe you folks can made BankGambling History by making the Star Wars vs Halo thread reach a thousand comments

    Now lets go back to that thread and make history.

  46. Megaraptor18 August 26, 2009 at 1:52 am -      #146

    Damn I’m in a sore mood right now

  47. Pondering Fool August 27, 2009 at 10:38 am -      #147


    Mate, completely understand what you are saying. Can’t wait to see your latest arguments on the Universe: Halo vs Star Wars. Pray Star Wars actually gets to keep the BankGambling Award this time.

    - pondering fool

  48. Frieza August 28, 2009 at 5:09 pm -      #148

    Will we wait for that error to go away I will just clear up the problems I have with Halopedia vs Wookiepedia.

    1. Halopedia pull numbers out of thin air, but the other then that the site is ok.

    2. Halopedia is edited by 9 year olds from hell.

    1. t Wookiepedia everything is right most of the time.

    2. They don’t create numbers out of thin air when ever they want to.

  49. Prime Chaos August 28, 2009 at 5:16 pm -      #149


    Wow. That so biased.

  50. Didact August 28, 2009 at 5:51 pm -      #150

    I agree with frieza.

    Halopedia compares game mechanics with fiction.

    Like saying

    “The colony ship-turned-warship UNSC Spirit of Fire’s MAC cannon is revealed to be unable to penetrate a Citadel’s shield in Halo Wars in one hit. This might be the result of a weaker, earlier version of the Cannon, or that the Shield is simply very powerful. It is likely though that the Spirit of Fire, being a colony ship refitted for battle, had a weaker MAC gun. ”

    GAME MECHANICS!!!!!!!!

  51. Frieza August 29, 2009 at 3:46 pm -      #151

    To Prime Chaos: bias? How, Halopedia is one of the worst sites when it comes to numbers and pulls them out of thin air.
    Like Didact said: “GAME MECHANICS!!!!!!!!!”.
    Other then that really the site is fine but even when they take the numbers from the books they get them wrong.

    Wookiepedia I can trust not to do that.

    Now I just that damn http 500 error was gone.

  52. swifterdeath August 29, 2009 at 4:35 pm -      #152

    “Wookiepedia I can trust not to do that. ”


  53. Didact August 29, 2009 at 5:32 pm -      #153

    “I venture that The forunners are weaker than the Galactic Empire. The Empire has more men and their tech is better than the forunners and forunners have little superwapons the rings and everything the DA. deatstar goes to the 8 rings and destroyes the Rings. ahahahha forunners are not smart FORUNNERS ARE THE LOSSER !!!!!!!!!!”

    I have proven that the forerunner technology is way better than everything in star wars.Give me some proofs,but you haven’t any.

  54. Frieza August 30, 2009 at 2:05 am -      #154

    To post 152 by swifterdeath: because that site is not run by 9 year olds from hell.
    I have found the info I get from there to be spot on when I check it against one of my books or a game.

  55. Didact August 30, 2009 at 12:36 pm -      #155

    Not to mention that the star wars fans have lied alot,like saying the kwa have an alternate universe,blablablablab,…..

    Warsies are crazy

  56. Inarto August 30, 2009 at 2:21 pm -      #156

    @Didact The forunners are not part of this scenario so it wouldnt matter if their technology was more powerful than the empires.
    Wiki’s are slow to update with certain information, just because they dont have it does not mean the info is false. It could be from one the multiple ultimate guide’s of starwars lore. Other than that do you have any example of warsies making false claims? I find it funny that your claiming that star wars fans keep making things up. Have you seen some of the stuff Halo fans posted in other threads? Also I believe it was you who tried to spin the examples of damage from the plasma rifle to make it seem superior to the E-11.

  57. Frieza August 30, 2009 at 11:01 pm -      #157

    Will it would be nice if L-W could cite something more often then he does now.

    On wikis being slow to update: that doesn’t stop Halopedia from pulling numbers out of thin air, such as :” tens of thousands of ships around High Charity”. I mean for crying out loud, they give the 1065+ ships number on the same damn page.
    And the plasma rifle is more powerful then the E-11.
    I can’t find my copy of ANH but I have the feeling that it was only Han’s blaster blowing holes out of the space port walls.
    I’ll see if I can find the clip on Youtube.

  58. Didact August 31, 2009 at 7:45 am -      #158

    “@Didact The forunners are not part of this scenario so it wouldnt matter if their technology was more powerful than the empires.”

    Omega 88 started first with comparing at post 139

    “Wiki’s are slow to update with certain information, just because they dont have it does not mean the info is false. It could be from one the multiple ultimate guide’s of starwars lore.”


    “Other than that do you have any example of warsies making false claims? I find it funny that your claiming that star wars fans keep making things up.”

    Yes,another exemple:”the executor could turn earth in a molten slag in 5 minutes”
    I have read on wookiepedia that it takes hours.

    “Have you seen some of the stuff Halo fans posted in other threads?”

    No,i haven’t

    “Also I believe it was you who tried to spin the examples of damage from the plasma rifle to make it seem superior to the E-11.”

    No i wasn’t,but i also agreed that the plasma rifle was better

  59. Matapiojo August 31, 2009 at 8:48 am -      #159

    “Like Didact said: “GAME MECHANICS!!!!!!!!!”.”

    You what is interesting?

    You are quick to retreat to this excuse, yet your favorite counter arguments to SW is the ghastly movie events. In case you are unable to follow, game mechanics = “movie magic”.

    Meh. Its not like this hypocritical display of your is new to us.

    “I have proven that the forerunner technology is way better than everything in star wars.Give me some proofs,but you haven’t any.”

    Buddy, you have not. Repeating this statement over and over will not make it true.

  60. L-W August 31, 2009 at 10:11 am -      #160

    Lot’s of weak science (pseudo-science really) around here, shame really, but not a surprise. On the subject of human MAC weapons:

    1) The physics of a collision are dependent upon the velocity change. The velocity change of the ship mounted MAC cannons upon hitting Covenant cruisers was much smaller than the velocity change of the The Empire Strikes Back bridge tower asteroid. The The Empire Strikes Back bridge tower asteroid was stopped cold, which means that the bridge tower’s superstructure was able to generate enough reaction force to deal with 100% of its momentum. The MAC rounds which tore clean through Covenant cruisers, on the other hand, were not stopped cold (in fact, they lost very little of their speed during the collision), which means that the Covenant ships’ hulls and shields could not generate enough reaction force to deal with 100% of their momentum. The battle of Sigma Octanus succinctly demonstrated that when struck by even lone MAC shells, Covenant vessels will spin wildly out of control, careening into one another and causing catastrophic fleet wide damage. Damage that could have been averted if the Covenant could somehow generate sufficient thrust as to resist 1.8 billion newtons of force against the starboard side, or simply apply 45 G’s of acceleration from the port and ventral emergency thrusters (with such rampant centralization, do the Covenant even posses emergency thrusters?).

    In any case, given nickel-iron composition and roughly 7000 kg/m cubed density, this asteroid would have roughly 1.25 million tons mass, therefore its momentum would be 1.25E+12 kg m/s and its kinetic energy would be 6.25E14 J (roughly 150 kilotons). We might leap to the conclusion that a Star Destroyer’s shields must be limited to 150 kilotons for any weapon regardless of whether it possesses mass or not (assuming its bridge shields were, in fact, up at the time despite the holo-transmission which normally requires shields to be lowered), but this conclusion is over simplistic and wrong. Knowing what we know about collision physics, we know that the shields must apply enough reaction force to reduce the asteroid’s velocity to zero before impact. From another scene in Return Of The Jedi where a stricken fighter explodes against an ISD bridge tower’s shields, they appear to be less than 10 meters away from the hull. This would give them less than 0.02 seconds to stop the asteroid, and the reaction force would be at least 6.25E13 N (note that we are ignoring the fact that no shield interaction was visible in the asteroid impact, so we are humoring the common belief that the shields were up). This defines the physical stress applied to the shield generator’s mounts, and stress causes structural failure.

    The ISD’s bridge superstructure was damaged, but not destroyed by the impact. If it was completely destroyed, then why was its captain still standing seconds later recoiling from the presumably secondary effects of the impact? Just watch the scene again, a 70 meter diameter asteroid impacts the unshielded hull of the bridge tower, did you see the asteroid plunging deep into the ISD’s bridge tower, or did you see it completely pulverize on impact? I saw a one million ton (plus) nickel-iron asteroid impact with more than four times the kinetic energy of a single ship mounted MAC round and still fail to destroy the unshielded hull of an ISD. Equal to the MAC damage sustained by the Forerunner Dreadnought.

    Better still, the lateral orbit of the ISD remained unchanged despite striking such an obviously pivotal section of the overall mass (think of using the longest point of the wrench handle), suggesting that emergency thrusters managed to compensate for the sudden sideways acceleration of the unshielded ISD’s mass with far greater efficiency than that of an unshielded Covenant vessel.

    2) During the battle of Yavin, Admiral Griff brought his fleet out of hyperspace too close to Vader’s flagship, the Executor, which had secretly been waiting for the Rebels at this precise spot, and the ships collided. Griff was killed and the three Star Destroyers that collided with the Executor were destroyed by the impact; the Executor lost its shields but suffered no major structural damage.


    What we have to remember about high speed physical impacts against shields is that the projectile subjects the target to severe structural stresses, usually resulting in penetration. If it fails to penetrate, it pulverizes and/or vapourizes at the point of contact due to internal stresses and work-heating, thus producing a large cloud of high-temperature material at the target surface. This cloud heats the target surface through convection and radiation.

    For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction, so there must be a counter-balancing force for that energy shield. A shield must be coupled to something, and in this case, it would obviously be the shield generator. Therefore, there is a force being applied to the shield generator on the ship. But the shield generator cannot move relative to the ship or it would be torn loose from its moorings, so its mounting brackets must each apply a rightward force in order to hold the shield generator in place. These four reaction forces, in turn, push the entire ship, so the net result is to stop the impactor while accelerating the ship.

    What if the shield generator’s projected bubble is easily strong enough to decelerate the three ISD’s to zero at least a kilometer before the moment of impact, but what if the brackets aren’t strong enough to hold the generator in place? Guess what: the shield generator will be torn from its moorings, and the ISD’s would slam into the ship. This is where momentum can rule over energy; a low-momentum, high-energy weapon such as a laser might not be as dangerous to a shielded vessel as a high-momentum, low-energy physical impactor. In this scenario, the potential points of failure are the shield generator itself, the points where it is mounted to the vessel, and the structure of the vessel itself. In other words, the mounting brackets, bolts, welds, shield generator internal mechanisms, shield generator forcefield strength, and all other connecting bits are parts of a chain through which reaction forces must go in order to make the end-to-end connection between the ship and the impactor.

    As you can see, even if it was possible to build a deflector shield generator of virtually infinite strength, the overall effectiveness of the system would still be limited by good old-fashioned structural limits. In this case, the Executor IMMEDIATELY halts three 20 million ton (low end estimates by the WEG standards), durasteel, doonium and neutronium lined warships at point blank range with the strength of her dorsal shields alone, causing them to detonate on contact. Whilst the shields are reduced by the impact at a distance of a kilometer from the hull, the mechanical structure of Executor remains unchanged, the moorings securely held in place with no major decoupling.

    She essentially took three giant bullets traveling at relativistic velocities resulting in a total conservative kinetic energy impact of around 500 petatons (not counting the possibility of a catastrophic Hypermatter breech, which can result in anything from planet shattering detonations to an inert gas leak), an impact that would literally tear away the surface of most planets with ease. Either the hull moorings are just incredibly strong (which I don’t doubt, since a careening Executor drove a hole clean through the surface of the second Death Star), or as a result of basic Newtonian forces the Executor has an amazingly powerful emergency thrust acceleration system with a highly accurate response time (enough to respond to three heavily armed and armoured warships breaking at relativistic velocities). Which would require a vessel of that size to accelerate to 6.328125e+15 km/s, apply 12 octillion newtons of counter force to the ventral surface or kick 2 million G’s of acceleration per square centimeter of the ventral surface. Either it has an amazingly powerful hull, or one of the strongest relative acceleration systems in the entire Star Wars verse.

    Even if we ignore the engines and look only at the structure of the ship itself, it would have to be enormously strong in order to simply survive this rate of acceleration. Let’s take its cross-sectional area at the thickest point to be roughly 5.5 million m squared. If the ship is 10% solid, this would mean there is roughly 550,000 m squared of metal which has to withstand a total of more than 1E18 newtons of force, nearly 7000 times the yield stress of structural steel (for an MPa of 13,020,000). In fact, even if it were a solid block of metal, it would still have to be made out of a material which is 700 times stronger than structural steel in order to survive the acceleration without permanent deformation to the hull itself. Any weaker and the Executor would crumple into a tennis ball at the moment it accelerates just from the power of her own engines alone.

    We also know that the Executor can survive the gravity of a planet even when it’s powered down, because an Executor-class ship was buried for years under a mountain range on Coruscant. However, the stresses imposed on its frame from its high sublight acceleration would be much higher than the stresses imposed by the weight of a mountain range, so the ship’s ability to survive its own engine output is still its most impressive attribute (particularly during hard turns such as the one in the Battle of Endor, which would impose bending moments on the ship’s frame). It must be constructed out of impossibly strong materials or it must incorporate some sort of forcefields in order to hold it together. Not such a leap when the shield of an Executor is described as having the output of a medium-sized star

    Based on these figures, the momentum of a MAC round (which is the main damaging component of the weapon itself, sans her mass) is nothing more than a mere gnat fart against the shielded hull of an Executor-class and a minor inconvenience against an unshielded hull.

    3) If based on Earth like dimensions, properties, including the scale and orientation of our nearest natural satellite (which wouldn’t surprise me since you have less than a novice understanding of basic scientific principles), a NOVA bomb would have to generate hundreds of exatons of energy on a linear scaling level, by either:

    A) Somehow subvert the laws of physics with magic (but Deuterium isn’t magical, in fact the abilities of sub-atomic Deuterium fusion is very well understood within the realms of actual science). Which would be the “wank” that you so gloriously refer to.

    B) Calculating the potential output of such a reaction. By estimating that 1Kg of Deuterium produces over 167,360 terajoules of energy (a generous estimate since UNSC fusion is far from the point of utilizing Anti-Deuterium and that a UNSC Frigate working at 60% efficiency was capable of supplying “gigawatts” of power), they would have to use a fusion core with a mass of at least five billion tons. Assuming that the cores use a super-dense containment system similar to depleted Uranium (which has a density of about 19,100 kg per cubic meter), a likely possibility since Deuterium can be stored in massive quantities without reacting violently, the core itself would have dimensions of 261,666 cubic kilometers, or a 9000km * 9000km * 9000km cube.

    Even if we assumed the “hundredfold” comment to indicate a density far greater than depleted Uranium you would still have an unbelievably huge bomb (unless you have the audacity to claim that the UNSC is capable of manufacturing neutronium dense materials – which would have been noted by the creatures operating on the bomb itself) which would require an unbelievably fucking huge storage bay on an even larger Carrier to contain. God knows how the Lithium is supposed to act as a tamper.

    Unless that is the exact variables involves are far, far less than Earth like dimensions, making all claims to credibility utter bullshit. Pretty much just like the time you claimed that:

    C) The Death Star used a miniature sun to power her main cannon, when the process itself would require a regular star to pump out over three million times the energy as our own star despite being 0.001% the size. They must have some extremely powerful inertial compensators to stop the crew from being crushed by the sheer tonnage of their own mass then.

    D) The Covenant use “magic” fusion to make more energy than there actually exists on their vessels, despite the fact that they clearly use Tritium fusion in a process that is limited by many lower end events in the Halo canon. I have to read more into this Covenant magic.

    E) A 100 gigatons of energy quickly pumped into a small area on an Earth-like planet would generate no debris, no plasma, no visible ejecta, no corona, massive levels of steam ejecta (many of those detonations are alone the coast), would burn out in seconds and would glow a comparatively chilly 1500k, with a neat red glow. OK for glassing, terrible for mass gigaton orbital bombardments.

    4) There is a whole lot of false information floating around about the Incredible Cross-Sections books. By including technical information and peeling back the skin of vehicles and ships, exposing their innards, the books practically force the reader to take in the sort of information that makes the scientific-minded fans (such as myself) really excited. Most Star Wars fans, of the sort who aren’t inclined to scientific analysis, have the books because they describe and illustrate the ships and vehicles of the movies; they don’t really question the numbers and other technical information in the books, but at the same time don’t really think about them either. The loud anti-science fans, however, find themselves for some reason challenged by the numbers included in the books. Consequently, they insist on attempting to discredit the books, their authors (the inimitable Dr Curtis Saxton, also author of the esteemed Star Wars Technical Commentaries, the preeminent source of Star Wars technical analysis, co-authored two of the cross-section books and is the target of constant attacks), and the information contained in the books.

    Really, what this objection boils down to is a sense of scale. You and I, growing up on a little rocky planet in the armpit of the galaxy, have no idea what it really means to be able to destroy a planet or cross the galaxy in a matter of days (even our largest nuclear reactors or experimental fission systems fail to compete with their starfighter engines). We have no way of viscerally grasping the scale of the capabilities of a civilization that treats an entire galaxy like a planet.

  61. L-W August 31, 2009 at 10:18 am -      #161

    Also Frieza, I would suggest that if you intend to cite a website, use one in which the author understands the FIRST principal of thermodynamics.

    Here Anderson decides to attempt to tackle an EU-based claim of a Base Delta Zero (BDZ). A BDZ consists of the destruction of a planet’s surface, which will be demonstrated clearly by the following paper. Anderson misinterprets and misrepresents the evidence, however, in an effort to cast doubt on some of the firepower claims of the EU. Anderson’s analysis of what happened on Dankayo is severely flawed for one primary reason, and a small host of less important ones: he treats the incident as though it were an upper-limit for ISD firepower, when in fact it should be treated as a lower one. Thus, Mr. Anderson’s refusal to allow for higher firepower figures is inexplicable.

    1) Since according to EU sources, even small settlements include large theatre shields, it is clear that any planet with a sizeable military force will also include planetary shields. Mr. Anderson goes on to completely misinterpret a quote from the short story, A World to Conquer: “Base Delta Zero is the Imperial code order to destroy all population centres and resources, including industry, natural resources and cities. All other Imperial codes are subject to change, as you well know, but this code is always the same to prevent any confusion when the order is given. Base Delta Zero is rarely issued.” The problem with Mr. Anderson’s interpretation of the quote is self-evident.

    Anderson takes an unambiguous quote and then butchers it by twisting its dialogue and changing the meaning of what was said. As the first quote indicated, a BDZ involves the destruction of “all population centers and resources, including industry, natural resources and cities.” Anderson somehow takes the “all population centers and resources” to indicate that “presumably [only] major ones.” Clearly this is an outright misrepresentation of official evidence.

    Moreover, Anderson picks and chooses what he wishes to hear from sources in order to arrive at his flawed conclusion. The Imperial Sourcebook clearly states that “The Imperial Star Destroyer has enough firepower to reduce a civilized world to slag,” meaning that an Imperator class Star Destroyer has enough firepower to melt a civilized world. This is an unambiguous quote.

    2) It is clear that “civilized world” means the entire planet. This is the consistent meaning of the phrase from the remainder of the EU, in which “world” always means an entire planet, and not a portion of that planet. The term “civilized,” thus is merely meant to differentiate this world from an uninhabitable one.

    Anderson then goes on to further misrepresent the “Base Delta Zero” presented in the Star Wars Adventure Journal as being “more modest” than the slagging of a planet, but in fact it is not. The Base Delta Zero does require the slagging of an entire planet, in order to destroy “all population centers and resources,” including natural resources. The definition of a natural resource is quite easy to come by. The dictionary defines it as “Resources occurring in nature that can be used to create wealth. Examples include oil, coal, water, and land.” The destruction of the natural resources would thus require at least: the combustion of all coal and oil, the evaporation or contamination of all water, and the destruction of land. By far the easiest way of doing this is to simply melt the entire planet, especially since it must be done from orbit by a Star Destroyer. The government includes everything from drinking water to metal to stone to lumber to fish in its definition of a “natural resource,” indicating that a natural resource is merely something that occurs naturally that is desirable. In fact, this is a very familiar economic definition for a natural resource. A resource must be finite and desirable. To be natural, it must merely occur without prompting by man. Thus, any habitable planet is a natural resource in its own right. The only way to prevent it from having natural resources is to make it completely uninhabitable.

    3) Specter of the Past and Vision of the Future reveal numerous planets involved in BDZ operations. Caamas was completely destroyed in such a manner by an unknown fleet of unknown composition. What is known is that no transmissions made it off the planet, and that no one survived. The same was true of the planet Emberlene, which appeared in the same books. It, too, was completely destroyed, but a mercenary force was enough to do the job, indicating that civilian ships in a reasonable quantity have enough firepower to perform such a feat. Bothawui was targeted for such destruction by just three ISD’s. The operation was unsuccessful, but revealed that three ISD’s have enough firepower to completely destroy a heavily populated world without leaving a single survivor, and without allowing any communications. Needless to say, this indicates a spectacularly high firepower for each of the ships involved in the operation.

    4) But he has failed to point out any real inconsistencies, nor has he been able to refute that such an operation is possible. It is clear that three ships can completely destroy an inhabited world, complete with oceans and cities, without leaving a single survivor, quickly enough to avoid detection. Moreover, the multitude of EU sources for the BDZ, and the explicit statements regarding its requirements in ICS, as well as the firepower figures for transport ships from the prequel era, preclude Anderson’s interpretation that such an attack is not possible. Whether or not Anderson likes it or even agrees with it, it is clear that a BDZ is a part of the official Star Wars Universe.

    Anderson’s numerous red-herrings about the ICS notwithstanding, it is self-evident that his analysis is flawed.

  62. Pondering Fool August 31, 2009 at 2:08 pm -      #162

    “Will it would be nice if L-W could cite something more often then he does now.”

    I believe Post 160 and 161 answered that nicely…….

    - pondering fool

  63. L-W August 31, 2009 at 2:40 pm -      #163

    On the subject of petaton level impacts, the more conservative estimates for ISD mass is one hundred times less than the 35 billion tons present in the Executor-class Star Destroyer. Based on this figure we can estimate that a lone ISD has a mass of 350 million tons, thus irrevocably altering the potential kinetic energy of a projectile exiting hyperspace.

    Assuming that each of these vessels exits at a comparatively snails pace speed of 0.5c (after exiting at tens of millions of time the speed of light), one ISD would impact against the shields with a kinetic energy of 852 petatons, totaling at 2,556 petatons.

    The Executor’s shielding defenses were one of its most formidable features. The ship was considered virtually unassailable in the years between the battles of Yavin and Hoth. During the Battle of Endor, Admiral Ackbar realised that the mighty flagship could be defeated if his Calamarian cruisers subjected the shields to an especially concerted barrage, resulting in shield failure and exposure of sensitive structures (eg. bridge and scanner globes) to pinpoint starfighter strafing.

    In the present literature there are only a few quantitative indications of the Executor’s precise shield strength. We know that a deliberate and concentrated bombardment by somewhere between half a dozen and two dozen Mon Calamari cruisers caused shield failure within a matter of ten minutes. Unfortunately we can’t quantify the shield capacity directly because we don’t yet know the maximum output of Mon Calamari warships’ guns. To total yield of Ackbar’s barrage was probably the equivalent of a continual bombardment by a comparable number of Imperial star destroyers over the same time period.

    This upper limit on the shield capacity is complemented by a lower limit provided by the comics, which chronicle an accident in which Admiral Griff’s three destroyers or light cruisers (of at least one mile length) collided with the particle shields at presumably relativistic speeds (during reentry from hyperspace). The three impactors were annihilated, and Executor was unscathed but suffered serious temporary shield loss, requiring it to delay its mission.

    The image of this incident carries interesting hints about the dynamics of particle shields. The fireballs from the collided ships were flattened along a smooth surface that stands several hundred metres above Executor’s dorsal cortex. This presumably is the depth into the field at which the velocities of the fastest debris particles were damped to zero velocity relative to Executor. It may be representative of an equipotential surface corresponding to the kinetic energy or momentum density of the impactors.

    Now, let us consider an equivalent nuclear blast (again, speaking from a structural perspective). A nuclear blast doesn’t react in a manner similar to a physical impact, for example a multi-megaton Shiva nuclear warhead will cause far less damage against a shielded Covenant cruiser than a 64 kiloton MAC round due to the scaling laws of proximity nuclear blasts. The first, and most obvious example of wasted energy is the random release of energy in all directions. A simple geometric observation leads to the conclusion that a minimum of 50% of the energy will be wasted by radiating away uselessly into space, away from the target vessel. This energy will strike the target ship in several forms. The energetic gamma rays from the detonation will strike the defensive shields directly, but they will also tend to superheat the casing, which is composed of several hundred kilograms of matter. This superheated matter, as well as energetic charged particles from the reaction itself, will strike the defensive shields at high velocities. The superheated matter will also emit large amounts of so-called “thermal radiation” (low-frequency electromagnetic radiation caused by the high temperatures), which will strike the shields and create a brilliant, blinding flash. In other words, the reaction would be far too dispersed to actively effect the shields.

    If we state the overall KE of the physical impact is 100 petatons (an easily rounded and lower end figure for the impact), we can determine the scaling laws necessary for a nuclear explosion to damage to shields of the Executor. Since the momentum of a massless particle is U/c, this means that its energy yield would have to be greater than 9.7e+29 joules, or 233 exatons. In short, you would need to hit an Executor with a 233 exaton warhead in order to cause the same physical impact damage we saw in the physical impact incident (assuming its shields are up, otherwise the sheer energy transfer would overwhelm the ship’s armour regardless of the physical impact).

    In short, they would need to perform a series of close range NOVA warhead blasts to even lower the shields of the Executor, an event so unlikely it defies belief unto itself.

  64. L-W August 31, 2009 at 3:07 pm -      #164

    Marvel in fear as the Covenant dump only a few terajoules of energy into the ground.


    Oooooh! Just look at all that dull red and quickly cooling sand!

  65. Matapiojo August 31, 2009 at 3:26 pm -      #165

    inb4 “L-W tells only lies” posts.

  66. L-W August 31, 2009 at 4:04 pm -      #166

    Too true Mata, too true.

  67. L-W August 31, 2009 at 5:53 pm -      #167

    As for the Forerunner Dreadnought, I’ve never seen such an inappropriate abuse of no limits fallacy in my life.

    During the events of Halo 3, we witness the Dreadnought coming under attack from four Frigates, who use their comparatively weaker MAC rounds (approximately 18 km/s according to the official Halo 2 publication “conversations from the universe”) to generate just around 100 kilotons of KE, approximately the same amount of damage sustained by the ISD bridge tower.

    How did we take this one minuscule low level event and extrapolate it to surviving literal swarms of multiple hundred gigaton/teraton particle beams, multiple hundred megaton missiles and gigaton level torpedoes being fired at the equivalent rate of several thousand broadside cannons per second?

  68. Frieza September 1, 2009 at 2:41 am -      #168

    I don’t have much time right now, but here is a little something I think should make it clear that UNSC ships are made out of something besides plain old titanium 50.


    If the link isn’t working, its Halo Wars cutscene 14 “One Less Star In The Universe”.

  69. L-W September 1, 2009 at 6:58 am -      #169

    Titanium-A, an extremely dense allotrope of titanium-50. Whilst undoubtedly stronger, UNSC vessels are described as remaining vulnerable to sub-kiloton missiles and are thus cut to shreds by Covenant weapons.

    And whilst undoubtedly tough little bastards (the Pillar of Autumn carved a three mile trench on impact), anything more than typical kinetic weapons technology has a very nasty habit of cutting through their armour plating like a lightsaber through butter. I would suspect that even a lowly point defence laser would cut a Marathon-class Cruiser in half, never mind the heavier extinction level turrets lining the hull of an SSD.

    As for this cutscene, all it proves is that:

    A) Heavily plated UNSC vessels can loop around an artificial star only several kilometers in diameter and with less than 0.004% of the total luminosity of an actual star. Considering that it remains in a stable orbit WITHIN an artificial planet by a mere 6,000 kilometers and that the resulting supernova engulfs an area far smaller, it is pretty clear that the UNSC vessel in question is not being bombarded by impossible levels of stellar radiation.

    B) They have no luminosity filter, compensation or even an armoured panel mounted on the forward observation pods to counter the brightness of the star itself, which is just really fucking retarded. The fact that their AI suggests that they should merely sit there and “close their eyes” just demonstrates a staggering lack of competence on behalf of the engineers.

    Great, so next time they get into a scrap, the bridge crew can sit with their eyes closed as sheer megatons of energy are exchanged back and forth, I’m sure they’ll get a lot done.

    P.S. What was the deal with those twelve Elites deactivating their camouflage, only to charge a defended position with pikes? I swear, the more and more I read from the Halo canon, the less Elite they appear (the first three novels are rife with acts of sheer stupidity on behalf of these so called “tactical geniuses”).

  70. L-W September 1, 2009 at 7:36 am -      #170

    Here’s a link to an awesome video.


    That’s an original VHS work print of 6,585,000,000,000,000,000,000 tons of rock, granite, magma, silicate, oceans and atmosphere being detonated like a cheap hand grenade; generating more than three million times the energy as our Sun in a 24 hour period.

  71. L-W September 1, 2009 at 10:46 am -      #171

    The Covenant cannot match the firepower advantage of the Empire in space, in fact their yields drop dramatically compared to bombardment yields. The UNSC uses megaton nukes successfully against Covenant ships in GoO, where as their shields are able to withstand several bolts of their own plasma weapons (in “First Strike” a Covenant Cruiser is described as being split open by a single cannon burst from the Ascendant Justice).

    I guess you could argue something was wrong with the shields, but the argument that the Covenant shields dropped in power by an about six orders of magnitude is just wrong. Even if you argue that the ships that were destroyed had no shields, of the four surviving Covenant destroyers, two of them are stated to have extremely stressed shields from the surprise attack, though it’s possible the other two had stressed shields, since the two destroyers sacrificed themselves to save the other two from only four damaged UNSC ships, which would’ve been an utter defeat otherwise.

    Covenant pinch fusion reactors are only given an output of 512 terrawatts in “First Strike”. Sure, the station is said to be capable of colliding with a small moon, but the speed, size and density aren’t stated, nor are the amounts of fusion reactors in the 30 kilometer long structure (given that each reactor is stated to be the size of a dropship, it is possible for the station to house thousands).

    Although this presents and interesting disparity between Imperial and Covenant technology. As I stated elsewhere, in order to match the shield reactor output of an outdated, twenty year old Troop Transport vessel less than ten times the size of an Imperial Star Destroyer, they would require the use of 136,718,750 seperate generators.

    Each of these generators is described as being as large as a Pelican dropship, by calculating the volume of a dropship we can determine that each reactor would occupy a volume of 7,167.5 meters cubed, to equal the power generation of the Acclamator the Covenant would have to occupy over 979,931,641 cubic kilometers of space with their generators. More than 300,000 times the volume of Unyielding Hierophant.

    Where are they putting these things?

  72. L-W September 1, 2009 at 12:28 pm -      #172

    One thing I’ve always found funny in the vehemently anti-warsie crowd is the self-inflicted blindness employed in debates, most notably regarding the ICS.

    The most notable claim is that hundreds of gigatons are far too high for a single turbolaser bolt, thus they’ll revert to calling it “overinflated EU wank” and “non-canon wank-a-ton”. Yet ironically enough George Lucas shot these claims down in 1977 when he introduced the world to the Death Star, the ultimate form of wank-a-ton firepower never before seen, even in the Warhammer 40K universe.

    Even the most overly optimistic firepower figures from the ICS pale in comparison by a trillion magnitudes of order in comparison to the Death Star superlaser, yet oddly enough those who claim that the firepower figures are pure “wank” are often the same individuals who make ridiculous excuses about the Death Star.

  73. Frieza September 1, 2009 at 5:03 pm -      #173

    Your calling me blind? The SW:DS novel shows the DS used a trick, so get over it, its canon and even explains that weird ring.
    So where are you guys storing your millions of tons of Hypermatter? (I know. Rich coming from the guy whose side has magic fusion and ships that are lighter then air. I mean should T50 really only be 100,000 tons for a ship made out of it?)
    So you have all this magic yields where? Off screen when where never see them?
    I mean you used the shown ingame yields of the weapons for Halo and just ingore all the Kt-MT yields we see in the movies which overrule ICS being G canon.
    That is a double standard if I ever saw one.
    You just take what you want and ingore everything else for both sides. Like you keep using those stupid 30km for MAC rounds. 2+2 does not = fish (cookie to the person who guess what cartoon that came from), I mean lets seem: UNSC ships engage Covenant ships at ranges of over 10,000km, and it takes seconds, not minutes.
    Also Didact, if you have Halo Wars could you check the manual and canfirme that MAC guns have been retcon to “c-fractional”.
    Assuming 3000km per second which would fit, and using low end MAC rounds of 160 tons you get about 172MT.

    So lets see, 36 Covenant ships glass a planet down to at least 3km (please refer to page 100 of First Strike which retcons TFoR 300 meters and 80MT nuke part to 3000km as being the setup on Reach and it not being enough to save them from a glassing) and Wong’s site, which you keep bring up only claims the upper 3 meters of the crust are melted in one hour.
    Sorry, at highest levels the Covenant have far more wank then any ISD.

    Also you idiot, that ship has no armor as far as we know, its a refitted colony ship meant for ground support operations.
    Also please point out the huge mistakes they made in the novels, please.
    GoO retcons this easily with.
    I use to believe in this over-wank of SW, but not any more.

    And once more: SW:DS novel is canon>you.

  74. L-W September 1, 2009 at 6:31 pm -      #174

    1) Calm down baby, you’re going to blow a gasket if you keep this up. I also suggest you write in legible sentences, thus far everything you’ve written has been an utter mess.

    I bet it never occured to you that the actual quote only said that part of the planet got pushed into hyperspace, so there’s still a portion of matter in realspacee that didn’t disappear and it would pretty much mass-scatter as has already been calculated. Either way the energy required to push an Earth sized planet into hyperspace (you’ve taken relative velocities from a tenth of lightspeed to tens of millions of times) would more than make up for it (at least going by the more likely results, if one wanted to stay conservative the hyperspace bit would still be higher by a few OOM, but then you’d still keep the original calculation only slightly increased, but the calculation doesnt take into account for the total energy, only the sustained energy to get into/stay into hyperspace), which would no doubt be far higher.

    The fun part is that, like we’ve already discussed, there’s far more ways we can interpret the quotes that fit with what we already know, than to interpret it like the trolls want to (IE use it to ignore conservation laws, the way things like that operate in SW, and the general canon/official statements to that effect). Hell we even know from Traviss’ writing that jumps TO hyperspace involve at least going to .5c (more energy than going via the obvious direction of DET) that alone is going to require a tremendous bit of energy unto itself.

    What you fail to realize so spectacularly (this is funniest part of your argument) is that the total energy required to knock 6,585,000,000,000,000,000,000 tons of matter at speeds of 0.5c is dozens of times greater than just blasting the planet itself with the appropriate level of energy required to drastically overcome the gravitational binding energy of a planet.

    Like I said, some people make up any excuse to shun the power of the Death Star, but only Frieza could be retarded enough as to inadvertently state the Death Star superlaser is dozens of times more powerful than originally postulated. It doesn’t matter whether I claim the Death Star mechanism uses a DET mechanism or FTL “shunting”, you’re the one stupid enough to shoot himself in the foot.

    2) As I’ve stated before (as has canon sources – The Death Star novel supports me on this), Hypermatter is a tachyonic state of matter that accelerates to “infinite speed”. It is canonically stated to subvert all laws of momentum, conversion and thermodynamics and does not suffer the constraints of baryonic matter such as the element Deuterium, which is used exclusively by both the Covenant and UNSC.

    This is not “magic” per say, just an accepted purely theoretical violation of the laws of physics. Apparently this failed to sink in the first time (no surprise there), but the inclusion of Hypermatter as a fictional element is an accepted concession that Imperial vessels are far more powerful than the mere physical constraints of fusion or baryonic matter annihilation.

    This is completely consistent with other aspects of Imperial powerplant performance. The Death Star 2 is more than 3.2 billion times as large as a single Star Destroyer. If hyperjump energy requirements are proportional to the size of the vessel (the most likely situation) then a DS2 hyperjump probably requires ~5E30 joules. Some morons might undoubtedly claim that these numbers are far too large (which only indicates the massive discrepancy between their sense of scale and our own), but these scales of energy are completely consistent with other incidents as well, such as the first Death Star’s circumnavigation of Yavin. During the last 5 minutes of the battle, the Death Star was averaging 670 km/sec. Its diameter was roughly 160km (ref. Star Wars Visual Dictionary), and if we assume similar density to a CCS-Cruiser, then the first Death Star’s mass was roughly 1E18 kg. The kinetic energy associated with a velocity of 670 km/sec is 2.2E29 joules. Therefore, we can plainly see that stellar-level energy outputs are required to perform the simple act of moving the Death Star, never mind the acts of performing hyperspace jumps and obliterating planets.

    Hypermatter is observed in the films to provide sufficient energy as to destroy planets or shift massive battle stations at relativistic velocities, what you fail to understand is that nay baryonic power source would be larger than the Death Star itself, making your objections ridiculous at best.

    3) Of course we witness KT-MT yields in the films, we also witness gigaton level blasts in the Asteroid field of both AOTC and TESB and the yottaton level output of the Death Star in ANH and the teraton level blast of the second Death Star against a Mon Cal Cruiser in ROTJ.

    A Star Destroyer used its light trench-mounted guns to vaporize 40 metre wide asteroids in TESB with 1/15-second bursts, resulting in a lower limit of 22,500 TW for light turbolaser output. Note that this only applies to light turbolasers. If the ratio of light to heavy turbolaser output is proportional to the size difference, then heavy turbolasers must therefore output roughly 2.8 million TW. Some Federation cultists claim that the asteroids in TESB were actually disintegrated rather than vaporized, but they apparently did not notice that the “debris” (small coalesced blobs of superheated liquid that were metastable and in the process of vaporization) evaporated into invisible gas within a fraction of a second, while solid visibly glowing debris would have continued to be visible for at least 10 seconds as it cooled.

    A Star Destroyer hit the Millenium Falcon with a blast that knocked it off its axis in such a manner that if the originating weapon were a laser, the lower limit for its power level would be over 215,000 TW. This figure is based on the fact that turbolasers fire massless particle.

    You’re inconsistent leaps between accepting EU as canon and the disparaging it in the next sentence will however always remain amusing. Straighten up kid, your argument is going ioin every direction but the right one.

    4) Actually, there are dozens of separate sources on MAC velocities, from 30km/s to 18km/s for ship mounted MAC ordinance and 0.04c to 0.4c for the heavier Super MAC orbital platforms. If you have sources to cite then I’ll happily pay attention.

    Also, you most likely did not realize this, but at distances of 10,000km the UNSC vessel in question is going to be traveling at velocities relative to the direction of the MAC round in question. Shall we say it together?


    As for the statement on “c-fractional” velocities, can I name you as the winner of the most ambiguous statement of the year award?

    5) Where shall we start on this statement?

    A) This is a totally useless statement in every way shape and form. Penetrating down to damage/destroy the facility does not necessarily mean blasting kilometers-wide craters in it with the energy of a nuclear blast. Given that we have instances of the Covenant employing laser fine weapons to penetrate multiple layers of titanium, comparing the damage of fine lance like energy weapons to operate in a manner similar to a blast is absolutely pointless.

    You don’t even know how scaling laws work, do you? You honestly think that a nuclear weapon which is twice as powerful will create a blast equal to laser beam? Do you understand that blast effects follow non-linear scaling laws? Or that the volume and area of a sphere grow at the cube and square of its radius, respectively? I see that we can add simple geometry to the list of things you don’t understand.

    B) I pointed this out to you earlier, how are you too stupid to not understand it? The quote states quite specifically that it took a day to boil off the atmosphere of the planet.

    First, how does Master Chief know what’s occurring on the other side of the planet, much less be able to witness this occurring everywhere on the surface. Is he seeing massive steam clouds erupting? Such clouds would be obscuring things (like the surface of the planet) to render visibility to near zero.

    Second, and more important, why the hell does the planet’s atmosphere “boil off” after the fact? Accordingly a typical earth like planet’s atmosphere masses around 5e18 kg. For the atmosphere to “boil away”, the mass of the atmosphere must achieve at a minimum escape velocity (which for an earth like planet is around 11-12 km/s), resulting in between 6e26 and 7e26 joules, minimum – higher speeds result in correspondingly greater energies.

    The the oceans of the planet (whether or not this includes other bodies of water is unknown, but conservatively assumed to do so.) mass 1.4e21 kilograms. According to here, water has a latent heat of vaporization of 2.5e6 joules per kilogram. This means that at least 3.5e27 joules are required to vaporize the oceans of an Earth like planet, at an absolute minimum.

    The problem, when comparing the two figures, is obvious. If the Covenant ships had totally vaporized all the bodies of water on the planet, then the atmosphere would also have started bleeding away. Further, if it took only an hour, why did the atmosphere “boil away” the next day (suggesting hours have past, if not a half a day or even a full 24 hours)? Once bombardment stopped, the planet would be LOSING energy, not gaining it (it would be radiating away into space, and “cooling”.) And third, this is inconsistent with the bombardment we see in the Cole Protocol (it would take at least millions, if not tens of millions. of low megaton range blasts to render the planet uninhabitable. Vaporizing the oceans or burning away the atmosphere would require several orders of magnitude MORE energy, either in increased power (unlikely – why not use higher power shots in ship-to-ship engagement) or in increased shots.

    This is a MAJOR problem with your statement, and it tends to suggest that either a non-DET mechanism was involved (otherwise known as a “trick” in your simplistic lingo), or It took much longer than an hour to achieve. Given the evidence, I tend to suggest the latter, since there is no definite proof that he actually witnessed the planet’s oceans totally vaporized in one hour.

    There is also the issue of there being no radiative energy greater than 6000k from the atmosphere (in other words, the planet should have been glowing like star for several hours during the bombardment) and that we have no information on the dimensions, standard atmosphere, the water content, the silicate content (this is the most important) and total sum of water on the planet. Once again you’ve taken another one of your pathetic assumptions and placed several orders of magnitude on a bombardment that several gigatons of energy would suffice in producing.

    Why am I not surprised?

    6) No armour as we know of, what a telling statement; and yet this is all based on the assumption that the absorption of stellar radiation at distances equatable or greater to the orbit of Venus around the sun (fucking impressive, I know) is a mean feat for a spaceship.

    Which it is not.

    - – -

    As always Frieza, improve the English and the basic comprehension of standard scientific principles (such as thermodynamics).

  75. Frieza September 2, 2009 at 1:07 am -      #175

    Ok, to start off I never said the DS was powered by a mini-star. Please feel free to point to the post where I said “the DS is powered by a small star!”
    Maybe you could try not to stick words in my mouth?

    Also notice I said “most” of the planet was shifted into Hyperspace.
    And by chance, is this stuff that tells you how fast you have to go to enter Hyperspace older then SW:DS? Maybe, ya’ now, it was RETCON? Which would mean I have not shot myself in the feet at all. Alsp, look at the output of the PROTOTYPE reactor the DS was using again, it tells us that it was far less then what you claim to shift most of the planet into Hyperspace. So unless you work for Mr. Lucas and he has allowed you to chose which parts of the EU are right and wrong then that book has retconned many things.

    And sorry there, but I didn’t have much time and had to rush that post.


    A. On the ISD bridge tower: after the start of TESB we see the probe droid hit the planet, then we go to Luke who sees what could be the same asteroid hitting.
    Now we know that the bridge tower took the hit and appears too disappear (watch the left side of the tower, it just disappears), now if we assume it sheered the tower off it didn’t last long after that.
    Then we go to Vader’s flagship, the holo of the Captain is there. Now sure you could say he just decided to stand there and continued to report.
    But that makes no sense since before when those ISDs veer away from each other so they don’t hit officers and others are thrown around.
    Now we have the following things that fit the facts:

    1. We are seeing the Captain as the asteroid hit the ship.

    2. He was somewhere else on the ship, and something happen like say another asteroid hit that caused the reactor to blow etc.

    Still imperssive, but considering their shields should take thousands of asteroids of many sizes this really seems to put an upper limit of far less then say the 256 TT (correct?) low-end shields you came up with there (and no, I do not mean you pulled them out of thin air like that Kwa universe). So, mid-tripple digit GT shields at best.
    Not only that but if they had so much firepower at hand why not just wipe out the entire asteroid belt?

    B. So mind telling me how a 30-200GT nuke is going to do that to a planet from orbit? Now why don’t we just stop and think here: an Exaton range nuke is far beyond anything else that the UNSC has, but they did it and the effects on the planet prove it.
    I’d put my money on ONI using some Forerunner tech and covering it up as being human tech or something. The fact is you can’t get around this, the damage was down, and no amount of even Terknobabble could have done that with a nuke.

    C. From what I hear on the MAC gun, it has been retcon in Halo Wars to “c-fractional” and the lightest MAC rounds are now 120 tons.
    Now, assuming 3000 km per second that gives us a low end of about 129 MT.

    And on them shooting from 10,000 km+ away, you do know that if the ship was at that time moving near the speed of the round, then the AI, which they were running low on in the war would have to fire it instead of a human…or are you going to say normal people have the reaction speed to fire the round.
    Not only that we have the battle between a UNSC frigate and a small Jackal ship around page 100 of TFoR.

    Covenant ship arrives 3000km off the ship’s bow, UNSC ship continues on toward planet zooming by the enemy ship. Captain orders them to turn off main engines and turn about to bring the MAC cannon to bare with a heavy round.
    Now we know the UNSC ship must be more then 10,000km away, so it would seem. But let us assume will it is firing, moving backwards from 10,000km away.
    It took a few seconds for the round to hit which would be about right for what I have calc, which means that the ship MAC, if we use the heavyy round which is 600 tons we get about 645 MT to take out the ship’s shields and crumple the bow a bit.

    Impressive campared to the ISD. Oh, and then we have the fact the Captain felt firing the SHIVA Warheads at that distance was dangerous to his ship.

    D. You didn’t get, did you? We NEVER see these magic (just answering this really quick, I said magic yields, not that Hypermatter was magic) YIELDS from TL on screen. Considering how damn fast they fire low MT of around 15-30 MT for the 12 HTL on a ISD is really ok when they fire so damn fast.
    I mean damn, you got how much from the HTL in one minute there at say 20MT?
    12=240MT per volley, one volley every 2 secs for just over one minute should be about 6.4 Gigatons unless I screwed up there.
    Considering there is no way they could carry the millions of tons of Hypermatter needed for the true wank-a-tons, this is really ok and can go up against the higher-low end Covenant weapons yields.

    And I really find it hard to believe I am such an idiot because I used the TFoR glassing again.
    God man, anyone with a brain knows that planet should have been glowing like a star.
    Really, I was just pointing out how silly it is for the really high end yields we never see.

    E. Yeah, considering what Blaster and Laser bolts do on the ground with the exploding stuff I would expect huge, scaled up versions to show the same effects.
    Also just so you know Plasma Torpedos do explode like that and they are the MAIN WEAPONS on most of the Covenant ships except for the Battleship which has 12 Energy Projectors.

    F. Will I don’t now what you saw there when the SoF did that sling-shot around the sun, but it looked to me like they where at most a kilometer from the surface and at one point even APPEAR TO TOUCH THE SURFACE OF THE STAR.
    But I’ll watch it again later since it was late when I watched it.

  76. Frieza September 2, 2009 at 1:14 am -      #176

    Just want to make that last bit on the TFoR glassing more clear.

    And I really find it hard to believe you think I am such an idiot because I used the TFoR glassing again.
    God man, anyone with a brain that the planet should have been glowing like a star.

    Also, watch that DS2 beam hitting the Mon Cal Cruiser again, that is no Teraton level explsion since it was barely larger then the 1200 meter long cruiser.

    Now the PoA was TT range when it blew.

  77. Frieza September 2, 2009 at 4:04 am -      #177

    I hate to go farther into the TFoR glassing, but must I point out that all showings of Covenant ships glassing a planet end with “nothing left but a broken globe of glass”, from H:FS.
    I ‘m sorry, but a several Gigatons blows up oceans, and boils away the atmosphere when?
    I need to read the CP glassing again, but when the Covenant glass a world they leave nothing behind, no oceans, no atmosphere unless there is some sort of Forerunner relic (Harvest, Reach, Earth etc).

    And on that, do BDZs give off 6000k like you say a Covenant glassing should? How can your blasters have “massless particles” if they have recoil? You blame me for all this and yet turn around with massless particles=gun with recoil.
    Also there were never any GT range events in the HOTH ASTEROID BELT, AoTC I remember thank you very much.

    Yeah, your just going to dig a deeper and deeper hole for your self like the 900km DS2 claim (watch the movie again, opeing crawl states it is twice the size of the DS1 which gives us an upper limit of 320km).

    PS. Well thank you very much, I’ll take my award for the c-fractional bit and use a MAC gun to shoot it at an ISD. I know it can be taken in more then one way cupcake, so don’t go into the semantics with me.
    Fact is that we have an upper limit of 30,000 km per second for ship MACs using the the 80 million KPH from the Captain of the frigate which gives us 50 GT MAC guns for ships high end.

  78. Space marine September 2, 2009 at 5:01 am -      #178

    “that is no Teraton level explsion since it was barely larger then the 1200 meter long cruiser. ”

    Explosions do not travel the same way in space like they do on Earth. The Death star lazer could have just been toned down because you wouldn’t need planet busting power to destroy a cruiser, Or just have gone straight through it and the cruiser detonated. And planet busting power needs an unimaginable amount of power to do.

  79. Frieza September 2, 2009 at 5:36 am -      #179

    Yes, I know that the SL was most likely tonned down.

    On the SL going through the ship I still find that odd that the entire beam seemed to be asorb by the ship and didn’t just punch through it.

    But fact is we should still have seen something more, impressive for that to be TT range.

  80. lamefellow September 2, 2009 at 6:04 am -      #180

    @ Frieza

    2. He was somewhere else on the ship, and something happen like say another asteroid hit that caused the reactor to blow etc.

    I’m guessing he is in the secondary bridge. Just because we see the captain lose his balance a little does not mean the reactor blew. For all you know the communications of the SD was just damaged. I think in the book no SDs were reported lost nonetheless.

    Not only that but if they had so much firepower at hand why not just wipe out the entire asteroid belt?

    This is ridiculous notion. It is a waste of time and equally not a simple task even with immense firepower. You’ll have to contend with rocks traveling at various speeds and trajectories.

  81. L-W September 2, 2009 at 8:14 am -      #181

    1) A miniature Star that would still require an output three million times greater than our own Sun despite being less than one kilometer across. This is clearly either a case of hyperbole on behalf of the author (such as the supposed planet cracking ability of the NOVA bomb) to suggest the presence of a high powered energy source (a Star to many lay people appears as the ultimate source of power) or the Empire is capable of compressing matter beyond the state of even Neutronium, which would also mean that they not only posses superior construction materials but also some seriously powerful inertial compensator that could rival any known Dyson Sphere in order to prevent the crew from being crushed by their own mass.

    You cannot have your Cake and eat it Frieza. Either they are using a Hypermatter chamber as every source of canon suggests (the ICS has a pretty detailed depiction of the interior) or they are using stellar annihilation to artificially simulate a reaction millions of times greater than the available mass.

    The fact will always remain though, we witnessed the Death Star blowing up the planet Alderaan, regardless of the mechanism we saw it disappear into tiny bite sized chunks with terrible violence. You cannot deny it happened.

    2) I know this is a really difficult concept for you to understand Frieza, I know it is, but listen carefully.

    If we’re comparing the DET mechanism, the superlaser would have to pump enough energy into the surface of the planet as to cause each and every atom to annihilate itself at speeds equatable to 0.04c. Try to imagine seizing the entire planet Earth and hurling it like a football at 6 million metres per second, or try to imagine how much power the Sun generates in eight thousand years, and you’ll have some idea of how much energy it takes to blow apart a planet the way Alderaan was destroyed via the DET mechanism.

    If you use the Hyperspace mechanism, not only do you have to accelerate the mass of the planet to at least 0.5c (canon statement from the Order 66: A Republic Commando Novel), but you would have to blast each and every ton through a breech in Hyperspace. The hyperdrive of a Star Destroyer consumes as much energy in a single hyperjump as many planetary civilizations will consume in their entire lifetimes (ref. Star Wars Technical Journal), which by either 20th century Earth or Coruscant estimates, is still an unbelievably great amount of energy to accomplish. So to blast even a quarter of the planet via hyperspace still consumes far more energy than via a DET mechanism.

    This is not me claiming to work for Lucas (what an absurd fucking statement by the way), this is just the use of good old fashioned common sense (and obeying the laws of energy conservation) and saying you either get a choice between a lower power DET shot that annihilates the planet with an overloading energy, or a Hyperspace nudge that consumes nearly a dozen times more energy as result.

    As I said before the Death Star occupies a critically important position in the Star Wars canon. It establishes three crucial pieces of information about the Empire:

    A) Industrial capability: the fact that both Death Stars were secretly constructed proves that the Empire has superior industrial capacity.

    B) Power generation: the superlaser’s incredible power requirements prove that the Empire has superior power generation technology.

    C) Firepower: the awesome destructive capability of the superlaser proves that the Empire has superior weapons technology.

    The Death Star establishes a benchmark for Imperial technology and resources, and this benchmark is so high that idiotic Haloites such as our friend here will quite literally do or say anything to refute it. Typical responses to any Death Star-related discussion is to claim that the Death Star was not as powerful as claimed, or that the Death Star is a freakish anomaly, millenia ahead of all our other technology. Both claims are ludicrous to the point of being idiotic; the Death Star’s power is irrefutably established in canon by the destruction of Alderaan, and it is idiotic to believe that the power generation or weapons technology of an ISD would be millenia behind a Death Star constructed by the same civilization.

    3) The impact Luke was referring to had little to do with the Asteroid impact later in the film, stop grasping at straws you little Weasel.

    4) We see none of the bridge tower sheer away, we see none of it pulverize on impact and we see no sign of any kind that the bridge tower is taken apart or penetrated (which by token of conservation – would generate a far brighter blast radius just from the contact speed generated by metal upon metal with a massive debris cloud as a result – friction 101 you dolt). Instead we see the bridge tower getting hit by a million ton (presumably nickel-iron) asteroid and as a result the impact pulverizes the asteroid as a million ton cloud.

    This is just another case of you failing to understand basic conservation of momentum – again.

    5) Now you’re pulling complete nonsense out of your arse to cover your weak arguments.

    A) We see the Captain mere seconds after the impact, recoiling seconds after the asteroid impact itself. Nothing suggests a possible time lapse and if the bridge tower was really sheared apart as a result, the Captain would be doing far less than recoiling in horror, he would vaporized by the sudden depressurization. I guess we can add basic science to the list of things you have no clue about.

    B) This one is even funnier than the last, creating the false assumption that the Captain would leave the bridge tower to participate in a holo-net conference that traditionally takes place from the communications hub of the ship, the bridge tower. What makes more sense, the Captain leaving the bridge tower to be by himself so he can look nice for Vader, or taking the conference from the helm of his own ship as depicted in every other scene in the other films.

    Only in your pathetic little world would it be conceivable for a Captain to leave his own bridge to take a collect call from the Admiral (your pathetic appeals are still quite humorous though).

    6) Again, you’re pulling more false pretenses from your arse simply because you don’t have a fucking clue. Or even an argument for that matter.

    I can buy the NOVA blast being a sub-Exaton event (mid petaton easily), but without the variables present on the planet itself we have little to no idea as to how the blast actually interacted with the planet, the composition, the orbit or even the range of the moon in question. You took a vague statement based on planet destructibility and created an even larger set of even vaguer statements.

    Is this how weak-kneed your argument has become sir?

    7) Now you’re just making numbers up again, stop being so pathetic and address a point directly please. If you can, that is. Nothing in any of the sources you cited (I read though those books again for your pleasure) suggested the ranges you’ve stated. Although considering the existence of many lighter UNSC cruisers are threatened by sub-kiloton HE missiles, can you blame them for being frightened of their own multi-megaton nukes?

    Even. More. Ambiguity.

    8) Oh, this is grand. Another dimwit who, upon reading the word “megaton,” thinks it means “unit of nuclear explosion.”

    Considering there is only instance of HTL fire in the entire original trilogy against heavy Mon Cal Cruisers (in which we witness entire vessels vaporize – not just explode), you’re point remains pretty unfounded. The chase of the Millennium Falcon, the battle of Hoth, the Asteroid field are all scenes in which the bracketing of lighter vessels was necessary and HTL would have been impossible to use.

    Like I said, that’s not a proof, you little dog turd. You’re stringing unsupported claims together into a vacuous paragraph with no argument whatsoever: that’s not proof; it’s more akin to slugshit, just like the vomitous, quivering mass which was once your brain.

    Now either address the Asteroid vaporization scene in both the AOTC and TESB depictions or just keep quiet and accept the fact that the ICS is official canon.

    9) You are still supporting an unfounded claim here, nothing more, nothing less. Likewise I could claim that 80 megatons is the maximum yield that the bunker can sustain, and that any higher and the area surrounding it would be utterly incapable of supporting her inhabitants, thus the Covenant weapons present a lower limit of only a few hundred megatons.

    But I’m not a vacuous moron with the stilted belief that the weapons involved in plasma bombardment are not interchangeable, which is a complete crock since we have a dozen instances of torpedo impacts, plasma rain, lances, energy projection and bombardments described as waterfalls of energy. Saying that the Covenant is limited to one type is a clear fallacy.

    10) The ICS points out that a Clonetrooper rifle can blast out half meter wide crater in ferrocrete and that their kinetic impact takes apart droids, superbattledroids and destroyer droids, a concussive blast killed a stormtrooper standing near a blast impact, can blast grapefruit sized chunks from ferrocrete and space station inner walls to the point that blaster vaporization fills the room with vaporized metal clouds and can routinely penetrate stormtrooper armor, which itself can survive a super strong alloy javelin hurled at it by an mechanical droid imparting enough KE to send it flying back several feet. Heck off that analysis that ferrocrete is halfway between concrete and steel in durability, that means the clonetrooper rifle possesses enough firepower per shot equivalent to four and a half pounds of TNT.

    Although then again, how many times have you seen blaster bolts completely vaporize kilometer wide rocks with the force of twenty billion tons of TNT? You’re understanding of scaling laws is just ridiculous.

    11) Yet again you’re feeble brain still cannot quite grasp this situation, so I’ll repeat it to you in simple terms.

    The artificial star is housed within the interior of a dyson sphere, providing the necessary heat and light for the surface of a rich and diverse biosphere on the interior surface area. Based on scaling laws, the artificial sun would have to posses the luminosity equal to 0.004% of our own star, even a sudden change in the gradient by even 0.001% would be sufficient as to render the interior habitat a barren wasteland.

    No trees, no rich fertile forests, no water. Barren. Imagine the Earth if she was just a few hundred thousand kilometers closer to the Sun.

    Even at an orbital loop of one kilometer from the surface, the total stellar luminosity that she is being exposed to would be no greater than a vessel orbiting Venus, also judging from the sub-oribtal ejecta being drawn into the collapsing star, the gravitational pull is once again far, far weaker for a star at such proximity. There is no way for any form of titanium to survive at such ranges to a star, therefore the star is operating millions of orders below even a small stellar event.

  82. L-W September 2, 2009 at 9:08 am -      #182

    1) Of course the Covenant are glassing planets (where did I contest this? You dolt), but they are clearly not doing it with the levels of firepower you describe in such a short time frame. It is possible to glass a planet with gigatons of energy, it’s just going to take slightly longer as a result.

    Gee whiz, how can you not grasp this concept? The fact is that the Jericho VII glassing does not correspond with an hour long exaton event based on the evidence given by Master Chief, who would have witnessed vast plumes of vapour in the first few seconds, clouds of plasma orbital ejecta, which would then be washed away by a distinct bright white-violet glow far brighter than our Sun; instead of smooth fields of glowing red matter.

    You would think it would be worth mentioning.

    2) We have no visual reference on a BDZ other than it slags the crust, which could still be accomplished at a relatively cool 1500K-3500K mark. The fact is, I sincerely doubt you even understand the principles of what vitrification is designed to accomplish and the varying principles between turning a planet to slag and turning a planet to glass.

    Do you even understand the relevance of a 6000K luminosity?

    3) No massless bolts? Then how do you explain the fact that:

    A) Turbolaser bolts do not appear to be affected by gravity, as demonstrated when multiple shots were fired in low orbit over Tatooine (so low that Luke Skywalker was able to see the battle through his binoculars). Given the relatively low propagation velocity, we should have been able to detect gravitational effects. The same is true of ground and airspeeder blasters.

    B) Turbolaser bolts have a distinct shape and contour, with internal variations in luminosity. Each bolt contains a bright “pulse” in its head that is similar to the pulses that were seen moving down the Death Star superlaser tributary beams, as well as the main beam.

    C) Quotes from the ICS that state the composition of a turbolaser is a massless bolt created by a phase pulse.

    Pardon me but you haven’t shown anything to explain your side of the argument. You see most arguments have to deal with a hypothesis and an explanation, of which you gave none. For example, you never have guessed as to whether the reaction of massless particles fired from a helitical containment field wouldn’t generate momentum in the barrel of the weapon itself. You instead state that it must be impossible without providing reason.

    The fact is that you haven’t offered anything to contradict or even prove it wrong, which is pretty typical coming from you as a debater.

    5) Do some research moron:

    Death Star I diameter: 160 km (complete cross-sections)
    Death Star II diameter: 900 km (complete locations, the Star Wars databank, complete cross-sections, BTM)

    6) The Mon Cal Cruiser is stated to have shield equal to an ISD (actually, the entire Mon Calamari fleet specialized in the use of multiple interior shield generators), which is easily in the teraton/petaton range (just as I proved on the other Star Wars debate) at least.

    In fact I was being highly generous when I stated it was a TT event, considering the superlaser in question had to kick the shields aside first and crack open the chewy center of the Cruiser with a single vaporizing burst which took less than a second, it is clearly far more powerful.

    Or are you another one of these idiots who believes that explosions react in the same manner even in the vacuum of space.

    7) Of course the detonation of the Pillar of Autumns vast Deuterium fusion stockpile was a teraton level event (although novel detonations have demonstrated the explosions of overloaded reactors to be far less). But this a 1170 meter vessel designed for extended tours in deep space during the midst of a war, where else do you propose they keep their fuel?

    Their tanks are going to be chock full of dense liquid Deuterium, given that the reactor is overloaded and given nearly ten minutes to condense into a mass of explosive fuel, the event should have been no less than spectacular.

    But why do fusion reactors explode? This brain bug is virtually universal to all science fiction. Whether it’s Star Wars, Star Trek, Halo, or Aliens, the consistent message is that reactors are bombs in disguise. Damage them, and you’ll get an enormous multi-megaton explosion.

    But why would this happen? Does anyone stop to ask why fusion reactors should be so volatile? It is extremely difficult to maintain a fusion reaction, and it requires an enormous input of energy to do so. In fact, thermonuclear weapons must use a nuclear fission bomb in order to cause the fusion reaction! The Sun must use enormous pressure (from gravity) to compress plasma to many times the density of lead! Why would these conditions intensify on their own if the reactor is damaged, when the biggest engineering hurdle to nuclear fusion is achieving them in the first place?

    This brain bug is incredibly pervasive; ships in sci-fi always explode when severely damaged. To be honest, I’m at something of a loss to know why. There is certainly no parallel in real life; naval vessels very rarely explode. The infamous HMS Hood is the only example that springs to mind; most warships sink from taking in water, but they don’t explode. The same is true for nuclear vessels; even a nuclear submarine which suffers an absolutely devastating catastrophe (such as a torpedo going off inside the tube) doesn’t explode like a nuclear bomb; it just sinks.

    - – -

    “Well thank you very much, I’ll take my award for the c-fractional bit and use a MAC gun to shoot it at an ISD. I know it can be taken in more then one way cupcake, so don’t go into the semantics with me.”

    The puny MAC round pulverizes harmlessly against the ray shields of the of the Star Destroyer, the on-board computer barely vocalizes a minor percentage drop in shield integrity. Before the UNSC vessel has time to re-orient for another salvo, the Imperial vessel returns fire from just one of her hundreds of point defence lasers, cutting the UNSC Cruiser in half. Megatons of energy leave her lone turret, burning though the Vessels armour, splitting open their hull. When the superheated gas comes in contact with the atmosphere inside the ship, plastic, flesh, and metal catch fire and roil throughout the interiors, leaving the ship to tumble aimlessly until it eventually combusts into shards of superheated metals.

    The Captain of the ISD barely notices the death of thousands of desperate souls as he discusses his vacation plans with his second in command.

    The Galactic Empire in relation to the UNSC is what a speeding semi-truck on the interstate is to a small woodland creature. Barely enough to shake the driver out of his stupor and warrant a ‘Did I just hit something?’ remark. To place them on a pantheon even near a galactic superpower is just a joke.

  83. L-W September 2, 2009 at 9:27 am -      #183

    As I stated on other threads, even the Acclamator, a small twenty year old pre-Imperial troop transport vessel designed for territorial assaults, is according to official literature sufficient to give a Covenant Cruiser more than twice her own size a good beating on a near equal level. I’m even willing to bet that with the obvious tactical advantage of hyperspace, a single Acclamator could give an entire Covenant squadron a good licking.

    The Imperial Star Destroyer on the other hand is dedicated medium warship more than ten times the size of an Acclamator and over four thousand times the power generation capacity. Her strengths against even a Covenant fleet are unquestionable. The fact that the Empire is touting tens of thousands of these things is without a doubt a major feat unto itself.

  84. L-W September 2, 2009 at 10:57 am -      #184

    There are only three events in Halo canon that truly struck me as being indicative of Covenant firepower:

    During Halo: First Strike, an asteroid three kilometers in diameter is struck by a Covenant energy beam, which according to the text took several seconds to bore a hole through the main structure and shatter the remainder, leaving behind several hundred tonnes of visibly ejected globules (Presumably a combination of molten iron).

    The passage says the asteroid was shattered through “uneven internal heating”, ie thermal expansion. If the beam had just punched straight through it wouldn’t have fractured through “uneven internal heating”, it would have exploded due to shock. We don’t get a beam punching through, shocking the surrounding rock and causing it to fracture. We know the asteroid wasn’t shocked, so the beam can’t have cut through the rock faster than the speed of sound in iron. This puts a burn time of 0.6s as the absolute minimum. 0.6s of contact with a 500 gigaton beam should have delivered 250 gigatons into the rock. More than enough to completely vapourise it with a surplus of excess energy to spare.

    We get a beam striking the asteroid, its surface being “heated to orange, yellow, and then white,”, note that it takes a noticable amount of time to change through the colours, the asteroid spraying molten debris long enough for its rotation to change, the beam cutting through a “wide arc” of the asteroid, and then emerging from the other side. There are five visibly distinct phases there, orange, yellow, white, rotating, and finally exploded.

    Let’s do that in more detail. We know the asteroid was white hot in patches. This gives a temperature of 6500K. From this we can work out the average KE per mole, and by extension, the momentum of ejected gasses. In a best case scenario, this works out at 2500kgm/s per kilogram. The moment of inertia of the asteroid is 10^17kgm^2. The average moment generated by a kilogram of ejecta will be 1,875,000kgm^2/s (well, actually it’ll be less than that, because it’s not all concentrated into a tangential jet, but that’s just another thing that makes this calc rather conservative), meaning 5.3*10^10kg needs to be ejected in this fashion per radian/sec of momentum change. That’s half the total mass of the asteroid. Let’s assume a single degree per second of rotation due to the ejected mass. That’s visible, but practically crawling around, it being six times slower than the second hand on a watch. Still need to eject 10^9kg of material. Let’s assume a 5m wide area. Given that the beam is supposed to be “laser fine”, this again is very conservative. This would require vapourising down to a depth of 2 km. Problem: The average speed of the ejecta was only 3km/s. With an absolute lower limit of 0.4s to burn down to a depth of 2km, it would still have taken another 0.66s for the last of it to escape, meaning a contact time of 1.07s is a very conservative lower limit. Oh, look, you’ve just dumped over 500 gigatons into a rock that only takes 33 GT to shatter. The gunner was Cortana. An AI who was described as using plasma beams “like a scalpel”. “Like a scalpel” implies very fine control, ie that she turned off the beam the moment it penetrated with very little waste.

    The asteroid was the size of the firing ship, and had a much higher moment of inertia. If the plasma did have significant momentum, we’d see ships firing it be pushed around. Quite noticeably. The impulse required to duplicate the asteroid-spinning is enough to make a ship of that size recoil at 800m/s (assuming only 90% empty space, and a density of iron, which given how unfeasably spacious Covenant ships are is something of an underestimate). We don’t see Covenant ships firing plasma beams being pushed around or put into spins by the recoil, even when they’re firing off axis, so they don’t have enough recoil to matter.

    Quite handily, this actually puts a 16.5GT/s upper limit on the firepower of that beam, with an excess of 27 megatons to shatter the asteroid itself.

    - – -

    Let’s not forget that this was a Cortana enhanced beam designed for optimum efficiency (according to her, the Covenant were neglecting the optimize the brute firepower of their plasma cannons to any degree), as earlier in the novel the Ascendant Justice is surrounded by four Covenant cruisers, two of which she detonates from a lancing strike from the laser like plasma weapons similar to the energy projector, which shares properties similar to the beam used to cut through the asteroid.

    Earlier it is demonstrated that the Ascendant Justice was resistant to several plasma torpedoes, and was reduced to only 67% of her shield capacity before Cortana took control and began to steer the ship towards Threshold, when another cluster of torpedoes fired from the pursuing covenant dropped the shields, gutting parts of the hull.

    Using the Acclamator as an example, just one of her outdated turbolasers (powered by a generation system four thousand times less powerful than modern Imperial warships) would generate sufficient energy with one of her medium sized beams to cut through the shields and hull of a Covenant ship with ease. A full salvo from twelve of these guns would just be overkill.

    - – -

    There is on particularly telling example of Covenant shield strength in Ghosts of Onyx:

    “On either side of the moon, seven tiny suns flashed into existence, ballooned, and enveloped the Covenant battle groups.

    The collective nuclear fireballs cooled to yellow and then dull red. Even with vacuum-enhanced loads, nuclear warheads in space did not persist a fraction as long as aerial or ground bursts.

    The destructive clouds thinned to translucency and a glittering
    haze of cooling metal formed an expanding halo around the planetoid.

    Inside this silver confetti, however, larger shimmering patches resolved: the energy shields of four surviving Covenant destroyers.”

    Ghost of Onyx Pages 329 and 330

    Four Covenant ships survived out of a fleet of fourteen which included Cruisers and a Carrier.

    The yield of the mines?

    “In the last fifteen minutes the Dusk had seeded the space on the dark side of the moon of Onyx with fourteen nuclear mines – thirty-megaton yield with vacuum-enhanced loads.”

    Ghost of Onyx page 326

    What makes it worse is the the ships where damaged by the initial battle and Redirected Plasma torpedoes.

  85. L-W September 2, 2009 at 11:02 am -      #185

    Here’s an interesting quote from First Strike:

    “There was no useful data there, so she filtered them out.
    The Covenant warships’ weapons warmed to a dull red.
    Cortana remained calm. After considerable study of the Covenant
    plasma weapons system, she now understood why they
    glowed before discharge. The stored plasma was always hot and
    ready to fire, but the Covenant used an inefficient method to collect
    and direct the chaotic plasma into a controllable trajectory.
    They selected the charged plasma atoms with the proper trajectory
    necessary to hit a target and shunted them into a magnetic
    bubble. The bubble was then discharged; subsequent pulse charges
    herded the plasma on target.
    For an advanced race, the Covenant’s weapons relied on crude
    brute force calculations and were terribly slow and wasteful.
    She booted the new system she had devised to control the
    plasma. It used EM pulses a priori to align the stochastic motions
    of the plasma atoms, herding their trajectories and eleven
    degrees of electronic freedom into a laser-fine collimated beam
    within a microsecond.”

    The system described here is basically a tank full of plasma with a hole in one side to let it out, and some powerful magnetic field-tech to aim it. There’s no active plasma pumping mechanism, it is merely allowed to escape the weapon. It’s basically a hose with no flow control mechanism. The only way to control the power of a shot is just to fire/charge the weapon for different amounts of time.

  86. L-W September 2, 2009 at 11:43 am -      #186

    Interesting point on Covenant hull strength, The Fall of Reach (page 297) states that unshielded Covenant ships “dissolve” when caught in the detonation of four HAVOK nuclear mines, suggesting total vaporization of the vessel itself. Individually these mines are in the 30 megaton range, placing their total output at 120 megatons (depending on the distance of the detonations from the vessels – since the strength of the nuke dissipates greatly over even small distances in a vacuum).

    Now, let us consider an equivalent turbolaser blast (again, speaking from a structural perspective). We know that turbolaser bolts do not arc measurably downward in gravity even over distances where it should be obvious (eg- the ground battle at Hoth, the space battles in low orbit over Endor and Tatooine), so they appear to be massless (and the SW2ICS provides official confirmation of this interpretation). Moreover, we know (from the TESB asteroid vapourization scene) that a long turbolaser bolt takes roughly 2 frames at 24 fps (0.08 seconds) to impart its energy to the target. Since the time duration is 0.08 seconds instead of 0.02 seconds, it needs 4 times as much momentum as the asteroid (ie- 5E12 kg·m/s) in order to subject the bridge tower to the same stresses. Therefore, since the momentum of a massless particle is U/c, this means that its energy yield would have to be 1.5E21 J, or 350 gigatons. In short, you would need to hit an already-damaged ISD’s bridge tower with a 350 gigaton laser or turbolaser blast in order to cause the same physical impact damage we saw in TESB.

  87. L-W September 2, 2009 at 12:35 pm -      #187

    We should also take into account the relative engagement speeds of each faction in question from relevant sources:

    In The Fall of Reach, it was stated that the Gettysburg would take one hour to get within weapons range of a target 80 million kilometers away. We can assume weapons range is negligible next to 80 million kilometers (Super MAC rounds were ineffective past 100,000 km), so that gives them an acceleration of roughly 12 km/s^2.

    By comparison, the Covenant:
    In First Strike, Admiral Stanforth orders a collision course with a disabled Covenant ship 10,000 km away to avoid incoming plasma torpedoes. At flank speed (maximum speed), they cover the distance in 18 seconds, giving the ship an acceleration of over 60 km/s^2.

    This is pretty consistent with most canon sources suggesting that even small Covenant vessels are faster than the more nimble Frigates of the UNSC.

    The Empire:
    X-wing starfighters easily traversed a 400,000km distance in less than five minutes before the Battle of Yavin, suggesting accelerative capabilities on the order of at least 17km/s^2 (1700 G’s). In the novel it suggests that the X-Wings were cruising at low speeds in an effort to creep on the Death Star (despite the urgency of the attack).

    According to the Star Wars Complete Cross Sections series, the maximum acceleration of a starfighter can be anywhere between 3500-5000 G’s, suggesting that T-65 X-wing starfighters can exceed 50 km/s^2. According to various sources the TIE/ln starfighter is just fast, if not faster than the X-Wing.

    The DS1, easily the slowest vessel in the fleet, circumnavigated partway around the 200,000km diameter gas giant Yavin in 5 minutes. This means that the Death Star could cover ~200,000km in 5 minutes, for an average velocity of 670 km/s (2.4 million km/h). Perhaps more impressive is the fact that it obviously accelerated by a large amount during this interval.

    The Battle of Endor demonstrated the accelerative capabilities of Star Destroyers. The Star Destroyer group was clearly seen on the Endor shield-generator bunker’s tactical display, heading toward the Rebel fleet at a velocity of at least 60 km/s. It decelerated to near-zero velocity relative to the Rebel fleet, in roughly 2 seconds. This means that their decelerative capability (which is equal to or less than their forward accelerative capability) is at least 30 km/s^2. This means that a Star Destroyer has at least 30 times the acceleration of the Death Star.

    We also saw something of the accelerative capabilities of the Executor in this battle, since it rapidly turned downwards and accelerated toward DS2, covering hundreds of kilometres (perhaps thousands) in seconds. Some have claimed that its downward motion was entirely due to the Death Star’s gravity, but such an immense gravity field (hundreds or thousands of G’s) should have killed all of the inhabitants of DS2. It would have torn the atmosphere from the Endor sanctuary moon.

  88. Frieza September 2, 2009 at 3:33 pm -      #188

    Ok, sorry about the sun bit, but somethings just seem more impressive late at night, you know?

    1. Once again I never claimed the DS used a mini-star(JUST TO MAKE SURE YOU DON”T MISS THAT: I NEVER CLAIMED THE DS USED A MINI-STAR).
    I never said it was freakish anomaly thousands of years ahead of other Imperial tech etc., so stop sticking words in my mouth.

    2. *Head to desk* I was using it to show that if it was the same asteroid that the probe droid arrived in and that we are just seeing it from Luke’s POV then we could be seeing the samething on Vader’s showing the Captain as the asteroid hit.

    3. I didn’t say the asteroid exposed the bridge to vaccum by sheering through it you dolt! Sheered off as in the asteroid knocked the bridge tower off, and no matter how you look at it there is no bridge still attached to the tower.
    The fact is the bridge tower was GONE, poof, disappeared. Once again watch the left side of the tower and you will see that part just disappear, its doesn’t even appear to be knocked off looking at that part, but I am assuming it was.

    4. So have you ever consider the fact that SW:DS may have retconned the amount of energy to enter Hyperspace and how fast you have to move to enter HS?
    The book gave us the power of the prototype reactor used for the DS1 and even tells us damage that a normal ISD is not capable of (you know, can’t vap a small sea, maybe it has to do with the lack of 40,000 tons of HM to burn every second).

    5. READ THE OPEING CRAWL AGAIN YOU DOLT, IT SAID THE DS2 WAS TWICE THE SIZE OF THE FIRST DS WHICH, BEING G CANON OVERRULES YOUR SOURCES WHICH CLAIM 900KM DS2. You can’t claim a DS2 larger then 320km (smaller then the 348 km HC) because the movie tells us how large it is.

    And also I’ll drop the massless particles bit, and once again the TFoR glassing since you don’t get my point on that.
    And your going have to explain to me how any of the calcs you’ve done about TA are right even using T50 since their ships are in canon still lighter then air.

  89. Pondering Fool September 2, 2009 at 5:12 pm -      #189

    So i guess this had become the new Halo vs StarWars Universe thread. Love the arguments, and can’t wait for the original thread to be fixed. Also, nice job L-W, love the dedication you put in your work.

    - pondering fool

  90. L-W September 2, 2009 at 6:54 pm -      #190

    1) Actually, you did claim that the Death Star was thousands of times more advanced than concurrent Imperial technology, and the moment that the original “Halo Vs Star Wars” thread is fixed, I’ll be repeating said quote for good measure.

    2) Not in the least, the asteroid in question was as large as the bridge tower of the ISD in question, which unto itself was at least 70-90 meters in diameter. The fact remains, it was at least a million ton asteroid, easily. Thus the impact would have resulted in a multiple hundred kiloton transfer of energy unto the most exposed segment of the hull. Not only that, but the droid impact would be in no way, shape or form, comparable to an asteroid impact that could easily generate over 13 megatons of energy, thus vaporizing a decently sized portion of the environment as a result.

    3) You have the audacity to call me a dolt when it is you who fails to recognize what friction actually looks like.

    If the bridge tower has been knocked clean off, the resultant reaction would have resulted in millions of tons of metal contacting at velocities of at least 1km/s, the sheer level of friction alone (never mind the fact that you’ve knocked off half of the electronics throughout the ship, thus exposing the surrounding environment to literal petawatts of power as a result – imagine a lightening storm in space) would have been far more visible than the pulverization of the asteroid in question, generating miniature flash fires brighter than a kiloton level explosion. The reason that we don’t see the tower in question is due to the fact that a million tons of rock have just pulverized against the hull, which has an obvious tendency to disperse violently when contacting against a metal more than seven thousand times the mechanical strength of titanium.

    Kind of obvious really.

    Watch again bub, the tower was not sheered off, it was not penetrated, it was not vaporized or detonated, it remained intact long enough for a sufficient period of time in order to allow the Captain to recoil in horror (over a format that allows for instantaneous communication across a galaxy) from a presumably secondary explosion caused by the impact itself.

    Still, considering that the ISD remained in axis without so much as a single degree of rotation (despite being impacted at her weakest axis) suggests that both the hull and the emergency thrusters altered the course with equivalent velocity of at least 1 km/s.

    4) Considering the prototype reactor in question barely managed to drill a hole to the center of a prison planet after three consecutive shots, it is clear that said reactor was once again incapable of achieving the results of the Alderaan detonation seen in the first feature film.

    Either way, the ICS disagrees with you, vastly. Considering the ICS novels were written in concert with the prequel trilogy under the direct influence of Lucasfilm.ltd (Dr. Curtis Saxton worked hand in hand with Leeland Chee himself).

    This whole notion is simply false, as anyone who has read and understood Dr Saxton’s website realizes. The argument is in any case irrelevant to whether or not the ICS are canon and part of the continuity now: Lucasfilm has gone over and checked them for continuity, as explained just beneath.

    There is a subtle twist that can be given to this argument accusing someone of hypocrisy in accepting the ICS but not accepting, for instance, the numbers in “Odds”. The potential responses are as follows: first of all, Dr Saxton’s numbers are based on rigorous analysis of the movies and EU, while many other author statements are chronically inconsistent and follow only from a misinterpretation of selected text and ignoring contradictions; second, even if Dr Saxton’s numbers are completely made-up (they’re not), they still somehow manage to maintain consistency with the scope and scale of a galactic civilization, while most EU numbers are glaringly inconsistent; third, attacks on the EU take on the Star Wars history are generally launched not at the canonicity of the document but at the inconsistency it contains.

    Finally, it’s possible to point out that, by this definition of fanon, every single EU author is guilty of inserting fanon material — i.e., material made up and not in the movies – into the franchise. According to Leland Chee, it’s still considered canon unless it irreconcilably contradicts established or higher canon. In other words, the ICS remains high canon regardless of your bitching and moaning.

    5) Read the opening scroll again, fool.

    Luke Skywalker has returned to
    his home planet of Tatooine in
    an attempt to rescue his
    friend Han Solo from the
    clutches of the vile gangster
    Jabba the Hutt.

    Little does Luke know that the
    GALACTIC EMPIRE has secretly
    begun construction on a new
    armored space station even
    more powerful than the first
    dreaded Death Star.

    When completed, this ultimate
    weapon will spell certain doom
    for the small band of rebels
    struggling to restore freedom
    to the galaxy…

    I took that straight from my 1997 VHS, 2001 DVD and 2006 re-release DVD copy. Nothing there mentions the scale of the second Death Star being twice the size of the original, whilst there are many other sources that support the 900km scale of the second station.

    Look here if you need more proof:


    Like I said, so many people are so intimidated by the sheer scale of construction of the Death Star that they’ll make up any old lie to deflect it. In this case, Frieza has convinced himself (quite effectively) that the ROTJ opening scroll has been changed from “more powerful than the first dreaded Death Star” to “twice the size”.

    6) Ah, the good old “feign moral superiority by claiming the futility of a further argument with an inferior opponent” debating tactic, it works every time.

    I guess it has nothing to do with the fact that I’ve poked your mass based particle claim full of holes (care to refute that?), your teraton glassing claims so full of puncture wounds that it returned crashing to Earth in a spectacular fireball or why there is no canon source that states that titanium-50 (atomic weight 50.867g·mol−1) is lighter than air (atomic weight 15.9994g·mol−1). But seriously, it must be your moral superciliousness that prevents you from applying your hilarious brand of science.

  91. Megaraptor18 September 2, 2009 at 8:54 pm -      #191

    “So i guess this had become the new Halo vs StarWars Universe thread. Love the arguments, and can’t wait for the original thread to be fixed. ”

    It’s seems that way I also hope that the thread will be fixed soon

  92. L-W September 2, 2009 at 9:35 pm -      #192

    “Not only that but if they had so much firepower at hand why not just wipe out the entire asteroid belt?”

    I overlooked this initially, but it’s pretty telling as to how much attention Frieza was paying to the film in question.

    Darth Vader was looking for his son, which is the sole reason he refrained from bombing Hoth from orbit, decided to bracket the Millennium Falcon with flak rounds and opted to send his fleet into the asteroid field despite the objections of his Captains (who would have no obvious desire to find Luke intact).

    Now, do you really think Vader would have had much success capturing his son intact if he started blasting every asteroid willy-nilly, instead of obliterating those that posed the greatest danger to the vessels? How do you propose he join with Luke as Father and Son whilst sifting through the vaporized chunks of asteroid debris?

  93. lamefellow September 2, 2009 at 11:55 pm -      #193


    I’m sorry, but I think I’m going to disagree with your last point before Freiza use it as another means to spam a long post. I think Darth Vader would be able to sense Luke’s presence by which at that time was gone since he left for Dagobah. (Haven’t read the novel for this one, so it could say otherwise).

    Nonetheless it’s still ridiculously time consuming to blast every boulder to oblivion. Moreover it looks like Vader was trying to capture the Falcon perhaps because of Leia. Capturing her is way better than making her a martyr for the Rebellion.

  94. Frieza September 3, 2009 at 4:43 am -      #194

    Ok, I know what your talking about with the thousands of years behind bit, but that wasn’t what I meant in the way you take. I meant as in terms of firepower since it can’t carry enough Hyper Matter so in comparison it is thousands of years behind in firepower.
    Oh, and you forgot to mention those three DS shots were not full power blast against the prison world.

    1. This is page 245 of the TESB novel.

    DARTH Vader looked like like a great silent god as he stood on the
    main control deck of his mammoth Star Destroyer.
    He was staring through the large rectangular window above
    the deck at the raging field of asteroids that was pelting his ship
    as it glided through space. Hundreds of rocks streaked past the
    windows. Some collided with one another and exploded in bri-
    liant displays of vivid light.
    As Vader watched, one of his SMALLER SHIPS DISINTEGRATED UN-
    he turned to look at a series of twenty holographic images. These
    twenty holograms re-created in three dimensions the features of
    twenty Imperial battleship commanders. The image of the com-
    mander whose ship had been OBLITERATED was fading rapidly,
    almost as quickly as the glowing particles of his EXPLODED SHIP
    were being flung into oblivion. End quote.

    And a quick link: www.st-v-sw.net/STSWbta.html

    Where did the tower run off to L-W?

    2. Sorry, I got the RoTJ novel and the movie mix up there. Here is the quote from the RoTJ prologue.

    The Death Star was
    the Empire’s armored battle station, nearly twice as big as its pre-
    decessor, which Rebel forces had destroyed so many years be-
    fore–nearly twice as big, but more than twice as powerful. Yet
    it was only half complete. End quote.

    DS1 is 160km, DS 2 can not be more then 320km. Assuming it is slightly less then twice as big as this saids assume lower limit of 300km, more lilkely size of, say, 310km.

    3. I did’t drop the damn glassing bit because you turned it into swiss chesse.
    Here is how I have seen sci-fi work over the years: canon>sci.

    I dropped it because it is so out of line with other Covenant firepower normally.
    On the CP glassing: you have proven nothing since the outcome is the same EVERY time…nothing but an airless globe of broken glass.

    But high end Covenant firepower has 36 of their ships having far more firepower then 36 ISDs since one ISD, as per Wong’s site, (unless you have a counter to it) a BDZ is the upper 3 meters of the crust being slag. Page 100 of FS hints at Covenant ships glassing the planet down to 3+km.
    And on the massless particles bit I dropped that since you gave a good counter.
    It doesn’t matter how much you try to shot down the TFoR glassing, it is canon until retcon.

    4. Canon proof that TA/T-50 is lighter then air in the Halo universe. Page 197 TFoR.

    The EIGHT-THOUSAND-TON Iroquois slammed into the tiny
    Covenatn ship. End quote.

    What the hell? A UNSC Destroyer is twice the weight of a 4000 ton frigate and both should be millions of tons (Holy S**t! Halopedia didn’t make up the numbers!).
    Yeah, when ships are made out of Weberfoam that just throws the entire thing up in the air on what sort of damage it can take.
    (and just thought I’d put this out really quick: Weberfoam is from an Honorverse book which has super light ship(s) that are later retcon to be the correct weight).

    Oh, and just thought I’d do a bit of a re-write of TESB to show you how removing at least most of the asteroid field would have been damn cool and helped.

    “Lord Vader,” Admiral Pitt said,” may I suggest we move the fleet out of the field, turn the ships up-side down relative to the plane of the system so the asteroid field is above us and then wipe out every asteroid beyond 1,000 kilometers of the one the smuggler vessel is hiding on.”
    Vader gave the order without turning from the view port,” do it Admiral, I want that ship!”
    The massive fleet of Star Destroyers rose above the field and began to turn over relative to the orbital plane of the system so that the asteroids were “above” them.
    “All ships fire.”
    Thousands of green bolts erupted from the Imperial ships, vaporizing hundreds, even thousands of asteroids, and each shot could cause destruction on a planetary scale alone.
    In less then ten minutes they were done, most of the asteroid was gone, nothing left bit the area around the mammoth asteroid.
    The Imperial Star Destroyers moved to surround the last parts of the belt, circling like sarkas aas TIE fighters and bombers continued to pound the moon-size asteroid to force the Falcon to show itself. It would not matter now if the ship tryed to flee, it would have no cover to escape thedozens or hundreds of tractors beams that could be brought to bear.

    Damn: would’t that have been so cool? Also here is a hole I can pock in the rebels evac of Hoth: why could’t they spare an X-wing or two to wipe out the AT-ATs? I mean surely they had enough time between when the transports take off to wipe out the AT-ATs with their Lasers.

  95. Frieza September 3, 2009 at 5:01 am -      #195

    Oh, forget this about the droid impact bit: once again you do not get my point.
    We see the probe droid hit and leave the crater.
    We go to Luke who sees and metor hit and it may be we are stepping back a few seconds to see the probe droid hit again.

    My point is that we could be seeing the samething if here, not that the probe droid did as much damage, but that we could be seeing the Captain the asteroid hits.

  96. L-W September 7, 2009 at 2:46 pm -      #196

    One twenty four hour flight later and I’m feeling refreshed, anyway, back onto the blatant scientific absurdity that is Frieza (or as I like to call him, the Anti-Science).

    1) Of course it was a ridiculous statement, because regardless of technological advancement, no society can perform drastic century wide leaps in any form of technological development with little to no recourse in between.

    Suggesting that the Death Star represents a sudden thousand year leap beyond a Star Destroyer is the equivalent of stating that the implementation of an English Longbow could be followed by hypersonic gauss slugs in a matter of thirty years. Utterly ridiculous. This mentality just demonstrates a profound lack of knowledge on the basic mechanics of technological advancement on behalf of Frieza. The Death Star is an example of Imperial technology, not a stupendous leap forward from Imperial technology. There are strict limits to how far a new piece of technology can advance the state of the art, because of the inter-related nature of scientific and technological developments. Frankly, this should be obvious even to those with no experience in the field. It is not, as they say, “rocket science.” One does not climb a ladder from the first rung to the second rung, and then suddenly leap to the twentieth rung. One does not leap from learning his ABC’s to reciting Shakespeare. One does not jump from basic arithmetic to university-level calculus. And Leonardo Da Vinci wouldn’t have been able to build a 1999 Corvette no matter how smart he was, and no matter what insights he had. In fact, the combined resources of the entire planet Earth at that time would not have allowed him to build one 1999 Corvette, even if you gave him complete blueprints. There are so many supporting technologies required that the blueprints by themselves would have been utterly worthless.

    In conclusion, only people who know nothing about science and technology are capable of believing that technology can suddenly leap forward without any sort of support structure, intermediate developments, etc., regardless of how smart any individual researcher is. For example, given the supporting science and technology available at the time the atom bomb was invented, it was really only a matter of time. There was no crucial person who would have prevented the invention of the atom bomb if he had died early.

    2) I guess you also ignored the part in the TESB novelization that described a “steady rain” of asteroids, and that in “Anakin Skywalker: The Story of Darth Vader” stated that “turbolaser gunners blasted the largest rocks; those they missed impacted against the bow shields like multi-megaton compression bombs.”

    We can see from the film that the ships were taking impacts at the rate of at least one asteroid per second if not more, and we know from the above quote that the asteroids were striking with several megatons of energy each. Meaning that each vessel would have suffered the structural failure as a result of the momentum of each of these gigantic asteroids, in fact to generate megatons of energy the asteroid would have to move exceedingly fast (Several hundred kilometers per hour) or would have an equally stellar mass (over 200 meters in diameter).

    3) I’m also so generous, that I decided to circumvent your laziness and took screen shots of the impact in question due to your stellar misunderstanding of impact physics:

    [Editors note: Due to BankGambling's policy on posting multiple links, the following section will be posted later in a fragmented format. For the sake of clarity, try to retain the order of the argument in future rebuttals.]

    4) The Return of the Jedi novelization states that the second Death Star was “twice the size” of the first, but it is unclear whether this means twice the diameter, twice the area or twice the volume. It is also unclear whether the statement refers to the half-built condition of the station during the Battle of Endor, or the size that unfulfilled final construction would have been.

    On the other hand we have the official Star Wars Databank stating the station to be 900 km, a scale that is supported by the Star Wars: Complete Locations, an interview with Richard Edlund of Industrial Light & Magic, regarding the effects of Return of the Jedi. In this interview, on pp.7-8 he says:

    “The Death Star, I think, will be a lot more interesting than the one in the first Star Wars — mainly because it is under construction … Plus, it will be MUCH bigger. In Star Wars, it was really difficult to establish the scale. It was supposed to be miles in diameter, but with a full sphere it was hard to tell. The NEW one is SUPPOSED TO BE MORE like FIVE HUNDRED MILES in diameter, but since we’re not dealing with a sphere all the time, we’ll be able to establish landmarks and get a better sense of scale. ”

    The pull out section from the Complete Cross Sections book, Inside the Worlds, Behind the Magic CD-ROM and the Endor tactical display briefing scene, which puts the lower limit of the second Death Star at least 700km.

    As Vader would say “your EU powers are weak old man”.

    5) I didn’t just poke holes in your argument, I destroyed it. Let’s analyze that particular quote for my own amusement shall we (because watching your feeble knowledge of scientific discourse flounder about like a Fish out of water is highly amusing):

    “Three dozen Covenant ships—big ones, destroyers and cruisers—winked into view in the system. They were sleek, looking more like sharks than starcraft. Their lateral lines brightened with plasma—then discharged and rained fire down upon Jericho VII.

    The Chief watched for an hour and didn’t move a muscle.

    The planet’s lakes, rivers, and oceans vaporized. By tomorrow, the atmosphere would boil away, too.

    Fields and forests were glassy smooth and glowing red-hot in patches.”

    A) Vitrification is hardly a staggering process; in fact the majority of silicates in the crust of a planet begin to melt at a comparatively chilly 1500-2000K. Whereas your simple mind processes the event as being a solely teraton event, vitrification can easily occur with mid range megaton to low range gigaton weapons quite easily depending on the strategic displacement of their firepower. As long as the Covenant achieve a decent spray of plasma over any one surface area of the planet, total vitrification isn’t exactly impossible.

    B) Nothing is mentioned on the composition of the water, neither is the salinity or escape velocity is mentioned (those glassy fields should have been invisible under the dense clouds of vapour) in any manner worthy of accurate discourse.

    C) Notice that it mentions that “by tomorrow the atmosphere would boil away”. Why the hell does the planet’s atmosphere “boil off” after the fact? Accordingly a typical earth like planet’s atmosphere masses around 5e18 kg. For the atmosphere to “boil away”, the mass of the atmosphere must achieve at a minimum escape velocity (which for an earth like planet is around 11-12 km/s), resulting in between 6e26 and 7e26 joules, minimum – higher speeds result in correspondingly greater energies.

    The the oceans of the planet (whether or not this includes other bodies of water is unknown, but conservatively assumed to do so.) mass 1.4e21 kilograms. According to here, water has a latent heat of vaporization of 2.5e6 joules per kilogram. This means that at least 3.5e27 joules are required to vaporize the oceans of an Earth like planet, at an absolute minimum.

    The problem, when comparing the two figures, is obvious. If the Covenant ships had totally vaporized all the bodies of water on the planet, then the atmosphere would also have started bleeding away. Further, if it took only an hour, why did the atmosphere “boil away” the next day (suggesting hours have past, if not a half a day or even a full 24 hours)? Once bombardment stopped, the planet would be LOSING energy, not gaining it (it would be radiating away into space, and “cooling”.) And third, this is inconsistent with the bombardment we see in the Cole Protocol (it would take at least millions, if not tens of millions. of low megaton range blasts to render the planet uninhabitable. Vaporizing the oceans or burning away the atmosphere would require several orders of magnitude MORE energy, either in increased power (unlikely – why not use higher power shots in ship-to-ship engagement) or in increased shots.

    D) Why would the fields be glowing red after an hour of teraton or even high gigaton level bombardment? The sheer energy threshold alone of such a bombardment would dictate not only a high energy isothermal reaction (which goes without saying) but would glow in the white-violet sector of the spectrum, not as mere red hot patches.

    E) It is not possible for the Covenant ships to generate the power necessary for the demonstrated effects through fusion, or to transmit that energy through the use of plasma. So how do you get a low energy weapon to induce high energy effects in a target? The best way would be to catalyse a reaction in the target material that does most of the energy generation for you.

    As has been noted, the ‘plasma’ weapons that are being used aren’t plasma. A possible solution as I see it would work like this. Both factions have been described as using a form of fusion to generate power. The type of fusion used is not specified as far as I am aware. It could be hydrogen fusion, helium fusion, or something else entirely. This is where it gets weird; by modifying the constant that governs the strength of the electroweak force or the strong nuclear force it would be possible to allow much heavier elements and even molecules to undergo fusion. The modification of these forces isn’t even entirely outside the realm theoretical possibility. It’s been suggested that in different vacuum states, all the fundamental forces could have wildly different values. That the values are as they are today is generally rationalised through the use of the entropic principle. So the suggestion is that covenant fusion reactors operate using a different vacuum state than that which our section of the universe lies in, and is one that allows for the fusion of much heavier particles, with correspondingly higher energy outputs. It’s still not possible generate more energy from matter than e=mc^2 allows though. So how do you generate more energy than the mass of your ship contains?

    If their weapons are allowed to work on a similar principle to their fusion reactors, then they act as a catalyst and only supply a small amount of the total resultant energy. They change the strength of the strong nuclear force in the target area and allow for fusion of extremely heavy elements; at the same time they introduce enough energy to induce the chain reaction. This means that the relatively meagre power generation capabilities of the Covenant ships would still be able to induce the output of the massive amount of energy needed for the complete vaporisation of a planet’s oceans, just at a much, much slower rate than one hour (you’re looking at a 24 hour job at least). Ultimately this wouldn’t translate to an equal effectiveness against starship hulls or other denser materials other than silicates and water, but it would make a great planetary bombardment weapon as a result.

    6) I also note that you are still touting that Fall of Reach quote as a definitive output of Covenant plasma torpedo weapons, when we are more than aware of various other bombardment techniques that range from plasma rains, waterfalls to precise needle like beams capable of cutting starships in half.

    Like I said, I guess we can add basic geometry to the list of things you fail to understand.

    7) If the 4000 ton figure is true, not only does it indicate that the majority of a UNSC Frigate is hollow (otherwise battle-plate wouldn’t have an appreciative reactive mass upon contact with other resistive forces), but that Covenant hull materials are vastly weaker (indicated by the fact that they literally dissolve when engulfed in a hundred megaton blast) by an order of a thousand in comparison to Imperial warships.

    Let’s say the ship does weigh 4,000 tons well the above noted figures tell us the ship has a volume of about 2,020,984 cubic meters while 4,000 tons equals roughly 3,628,738 kilograms. Thus we have a volume of about 1.79 kilograms per cubic meter. Air has a mass of 1.204 Kilograms per cubic meter at about room temperature. Still not lighter than air bub and as a result, is incredibly weak.

    This also vastly diminishes the velocity of a MAC round as a result, since a 6E5 kg projectile moving at 30E3 m/s would have 18,000,000,000 kg*m/s of momentum. This would send a 4000 ton firing platform flying back at 4 km/s in the absence of a counterthrust mechanism. If its engines are capable of accelerating the platform to 4 km/s in the same time that it takes to accelerate the round then at least the vessel maintains a stable orbit. If we were to take the earlier postulated 30,000km/s figure, a UNSC vessel would have to counter with over 18,000,000,000,000 kg*m/s of momentum, putting her counter acceleration at a staggering 9000 km/s (making a UNSC vessel over one hundred times faster than a Covenant cruiser at flank speed). As a result 30km/s is a perfectly believable number for a higher end yield since it doesn’t raise major issues of recoil and is still adequate to hit big enemy warships which can’t exactly dance around like fireflies. See, it pays to have heavier vessels whereas weapon output is concerned, since recoil would have a nasty tendency of either pushing your ship far faster than she can handle or could likewise split it evenly along the keel. Even if we scale this up to the heavier Cruisers in the fleet (100,000+ tons) you’re still looking at counter acceleration greater than 180km/s as a result.

    This is another case of you wanting your cake and then eating it at the same time. With such light vessels, even low megaton range MAC rounds would be sufficient as to toss a 4000 ton frigate with ease and as a result the subsequent counter-thrust would be sufficient as to crush the entire structure into the shape of a cube at high velocities. The fact that we have yet to witness a UNSC acceleration capacity greater than 17km/s and entire human fleets being thrown around by the sheer inertia of their weapons, it clearly puts a final resounding nail in the coffin that is your supposed hundred megaton MAC yields.

    8) They were blasting a defensive perimeter in the asteroid field, but the issue is that once the mass of the asteroid increases the likelihood of the Millennium Falcon finding a safe nook or cranny to hide increases, thus causing you to evaporate your son accidentally.

    - – -

    “I think Darth Vader would be able to sense Luke’s presence by which at that time was gone since he left for Dagobah. (Haven’t read the novel for this one, so it could say otherwise).”

    Vader knew Luke as a son long before the events of Hoth, yet he was still reliant on scouts to search the cluttered debris field, even when Luke was literally within spitting distance of the nearest Star Destroyer (they attached themselves to the garbage chute) Vader still failed to sense his presence, throwing that theory out of the window.

  97. L-W September 7, 2009 at 2:52 pm -      #197

    3) I’m also so generous, that I decided to circumvent your laziness and took screen shots of the impact in question due to your stellar misunderstanding of impact physics:

    A) i139.photobucket.com/albums/q311/Lew88/vlcsnap-157270.png

    This is purely to gain an impression of both asteroid scale and impact speed, placing the 70 meter asteroid at a hefty velocity of 1km/s against an unshielded bow.

    B) i139.photobucket.com/albums/q311/Lew88/vlcsnap-158549.png

    This shot not only establishes scale, but demonstrates aptly that if the impact were to occur to the point that bridge was torn away or penetrated as a result, the devastation would have been no less than titanic. Zoom forward.

  98. L-W September 7, 2009 at 2:53 pm -      #198

    C) i139.photobucket.com/albums/q311/Lew88/vlcsnap-158370.png

    Not only is the asteroid shattered at the central hemisphere (on contact no less), but the ventral surface of the bridge tower that has yet to be masked by the detonation of a pulverized asteroid remains unchanged. If this was an instance of a compartmental breech (over a surface area of at least 100 meters), the entire bridge structure would have warped significantly as a result.

    Not only that, but any impact on such a scale would have forced the Star Destroyer into a starboard spin with a momentum of 1.0E12 kilogram-meter/second. Either way the starboard thrusters would have compensated as a result, but without a means of stopping the inertia by itself, the bridge tower would have either been flattened or sheered clean off by the compensation thrusters.

    D) i139.photobucket.com/albums/q311/Lew88/vlcsnap-158767.png

    The asteroid pulverizes of contact, indicated by a ten meter long shard of debris that has remained despite the explosion (most likely as a result of the sudden de-acceleration).

    E) i139.photobucket.com/albums/q311/Lew88/vlcsnap-158928.png

    Two frames later and the pulverized matter has ceased expansion, settling into a vicious cloud of debris that obscures the bridge tower. No explosive depressurization of air (assuming that the ship has a rating of one atmosphere, the release would have equated to around one billion newtons of force and would expand at over 200 meters per second), no titanic shards of metallic debris, no tilt, no continuous explosion and no contact reaction caused by millions of tons of metal causing friction at high speeds.

    There goes your ridiculous argument.

  99. Frieza September 11, 2009 at 12:04 am -      #199

    Then what the f**k happen to it L-W? That fact is it just disappears, I’ve been nice on this by saying it was knocked off intstead of vaporize. Everyone, watch TESB and you will notice that the bridge tower is gone.
    Also what does this “rain of asteroids” have to do with anything really? The fact that 256 low-end (as you say) shields can be taken down in even such a dense field and then the ship being destroyed as the book implies.

    And I have this question on ICS: WHERE are they storing trillions of tons of HM since at peck output they use up 40,000 tons EVERY SECOND.

    And also, without any proof you know talk about Covenant weapons causing a chain reaction when they glass a planet? Hahahaha, *snif*, how I love yur Trekkie way of debating. Sounds like how Trekkies claim the DS caused a chain reaction for so long.

    Also I love how you continue being so stupid when you already know what sort of fusion both UNSC and Covenant use.

    Will now that the other thread is back up we can continue there.

  100. Ryushi October 3, 2009 at 1:20 am -      #200

    Please check that part of the site, I have left some regards and a few very long comments, I would like to see what others think of my oppinion.

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