The Royal Knights (Digimon) Vs Espada (Bleach)

The Royal Knights (Digimon) Vs Espada (Bleach)

I can honestly say that I don’t know much about The Royal Knights, so based on that limited information, I am leaning towards the Espada from Bleach.

Who wins?

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137 Comments on "The Royal Knights (Digimon) Vs Espada (Bleach)"

  1. EnigmaJ April 28, 2009 at 11:17 am -      #1

    Wow! o.o! Can’t believe you put this one up, thanks!

    Anyway, all I know as of the moment is that this would be pretty epic! Though Espada is somewhat outnumbered ( It’s 11 vs 13 if you count in Luppi and Neliel ), I think thier unique and powerful abilities should even this out.

    I don’t exactly have a good idea on the power level of most of the Espada members or some of the Royal Knights, so I hold off my vote until I watch some more episodes of both animes. But right now I feel as if some of the low-tier Knights ( such as Sleipmon and Crusadermon ) would fall fast, but the higher-tier ones ( such as UlVeedramon, Gallantmon, Omnimon ) would be able to hold off many of the Espada members. Its just speculation, but I think Alphamon wins this for the Royal Knights ( what can they do against the Alpha Inforce? ).

    I’ll be back when I have a better of idea of how this would play out.

  2. kano547 April 28, 2009 at 11:23 am -      #2

    just to clarify do you mean the espada or the soul society captains? your pic is kind of confusing and if yu need one of the espada theres a really good one if you wiki bleach vizored

    Sorry, I was just looking for a cool image to use. It’s the espada.

  3. EnigmaJ April 28, 2009 at 12:44 pm -      #3

    Actually scratch what I said. Both teams are an even, 11 vs 11, ( If you count in Luppy and Neliel, though they were replaced ). There are 13 Royal Knight members, but we’ve never seen two of them.

  4. kano547 April 28, 2009 at 1:06 pm -      #4

    well i dont know much about the knights i think the espada could win might be a hard fight but in the end its the vizoreds win especaily with ichigo on their team

  5. kano547 April 28, 2009 at 1:08 pm -      #5

    heres the pic en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bleach_-_The_Vizard.JPG

  6. x on April 29, 2009 at 10:32 pm -      #6

    My vote’s for the Espada.

  7. fight May 15, 2009 at 7:43 am -      #7

    the royal knights win this the one in the middle took out over 75000 bad guys in one simple shot ok soo yeah there pretty fing powerful plus each of the royal knights is a mega combination of other mega digimon so yeah fight goes to them there like the gods of there world so whoever dont know about them do some research and i didint mean they rule like gods or anything just ment there mega badass and at the top of the ladder for the whole digi world

  8. DaWolf June 6, 2009 at 9:27 pm -      #8

    The one in the middle’s name is omnimon and I DECLARE RIGHT NOW! if anyone thinks espada can beat the royal knights i have this to combat them 1. All of the royal knights are mega lvl digimon (the most powerful lvl 2. Every single one of them has at least one attack that can wipe out an entire city 3. They’re ****ing HUGE! (for proof whatch omnimon in action on digimon movie 1) 4. Omnimon ( I keep using him as an example because I LOVE! wargreymon who makes up half of him) if he choose to x digivolve has a move called All Delete that annihilates everything in the vicinity ( to see this watch Digimon X-Evolution. The royal knights win this hands don’t even think about coming up

  9. DaWolf June 6, 2009 at 9:28 pm -      #9

    BTW, wargreymon x ( the one on the left) isn’t a royal knight but he is an extreme beast

  10. OmegaGreymon July 1, 2009 at 3:57 pm -      #10

    Quite. WarGreymon X is definitely NOT a royal knight. He simply makes up half of Omnimon/Omegamon X.

    Erm.. Sorry, but I gotta go with the Knights for this one. All-Delete simply destroys anything within the immediate vicinity.

    Not to mention Gallantmon has plenty of long range moves that can be used from thousands of feet, if not an entire mile. Also, Supreme Cannon is a big explosion, literally. That’s all it is.

    Examon would most likely fall fast, but Alphamon’s “Digitalize of Soul” attack would simply kill. Also, Alpha Inforce, the ability to go back in time and block moves that Alphamon would normally not know about, Espada simply doesn’t have anything to match.

    Knights… Period.

  11. Skrunks July 1, 2009 at 5:17 pm -      #11

    Omnimon is the Chuck Norris of Digimon.

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9GJOWkLrg0

    Cheeseball writing aside, Omnimon pwns.

  12. DaWolf July 27, 2009 at 2:21 am -      #12

    It’s nice to hear from people who actually know their digimon. It’s a rediculously underrated show that I think has alot more to offer than pokemon

  13. TheSorrow July 27, 2009 at 2:30 am -      #13

    I find incredible that they can come up with all those names and still manage to put a “mon” at the end.

  14. Dante Chief July 30, 2009 at 7:00 pm -      #14

    I’m going with the Espada. They can block attacks with one hand, are very fast, and can defeat The Royal Knights without using thier full power or sword.

  15. DaWolf August 6, 2009 at 9:11 pm -      #15

    Ok appearently you didn’t read my last couple of posts. It would only take 2 or 3 of the royal knights to DESTROY all of espada bringing all of them into the fray is just severe overkill. I’ve read through the whole number 0-9 thing and i’m not too impressed. They’re good but the royal knights are on a whole different league. Can we get the transformers vs royal knights? (personally i still think they’d win)

  16. AkumaTh August 6, 2009 at 10:01 pm -      #16

    Here’s a list of the Espada’s: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hollow_(Bleach)#Arrancar

    All that power mentioned above from the Digimon can not hurt the Espada because you need spiritual energy to even touch them, which is why only high spirited people can hurt them or see them. Then again, that’s speculation.

    But the Digimon supporters seem to forget that to see a Hollow, or a Soul Reaper for that matter, you need to be either dead or have a very high spiritual pressure. Digimon are alive, and I’m pretty sure their spirits are not that high. Too boot, considering the fact Zommari can possess a part of the body with his eyes, he could make the Royal Knights attack each other.

    In short, how can you defeat someone you can’t even see? Espada’s for the win.

  17. DaWolf August 7, 2009 at 5:44 pm -      #17

    I will give you that, Digimon are more technological than spiritual but it does take alot of spirit (or something like it) energy to make a digimon evolve esp. to the mega level which all the royal knights are (I’m speculating the whole spirit energy to make them digivolve thing because the digi-destinds’ digimon evolve from it). Even if that’s not the case, lets keep it fair, invisibility is not an official power of them so let’s keep it a straight clean fight in which all competetors can see eachother. Besides that they would be quite skilled enough to take out Zommari before he could do sufficient damage. Knights all day

  18. AkumaTh August 8, 2009 at 10:00 pm -      #18

    Espada’s are known to move very fast, with Zommari being the fastest. I’ve seen the Royal Knights fight, they aren’t that fast.

    Too boot, compared to most animes, Digimon are quite fragile. An Espada lost an arm and was still able to fight at their best. I haven’t seen a Digimon lose a limb and still lived to see the next day. Then again, I only watch the Anime.

  19. DaWolf August 9, 2009 at 1:06 am -      #19

    The Royal Knights aren’t that fast?!?!? Are you kiding me!?!?!?!? Craniummon can attack so fast you can’t tell he moved (this video doesn’t show it but it does demonstrate his power www.youtube.com/watch?v=ur8d6LpiJiU) and that’s just one. Also, digimon are the most resilient beings i know of. They continuously take a licking and keep on ticking and it is rediculously hard to lick a digimon in the first place especially the knights

  20. AkumaTh August 9, 2009 at 2:04 pm -      #20

    You haven’t shown video proof of their speed, I can show Zommari’s entire fight with Byakuya, which showcases his speed, strength, abilities, and weaknesses.
    www.youtube.com/watch?v=pR5geFBxsTw (Part 1 of 3)

    The guy moves so fast he can create five clones! His abilities are also frikkin fast to the point that if you let your guard down for a milisecond, he got you. And the Shied given to Craniummon by King Drasil has been proven breakable. If three Digimon and a Human can break it, I’m sure at most 4 Espada Members can do the job as well.

    And honestly, from the animes only, I haven’t seen Digimon have any real test of abuse. A human, Dr. Akihiro Kurata, found an easy way to permanently delete Digimon, something I’ve seen no Digimon on the show survive after being hit. We’ve seen characters in Bleach survive loosing various amounts of blood, stabbed multiple times, hit with the enemy’s best attacks and in the case of Mayuri, whole parts of the body missing and still fight to their fullest and survive to live on.

    Too boot, Szayel Aporro, Espada #8, is pretty much immortal. To the point, only someone with the twisted science of Kurotsuchi Mayuri can pull off victory. www.youtube.com/watch?v=OR0iak2G208 : final moments of Aporro’s fight, which shows us his ability and also what it took to finally defeat him. See part 1 for his fight.

    I like Digimon, but considering what other animes have been through, I don’t like their chances 65% of the time. This is one of those 65% of the times.

  21. DaWolf August 9, 2009 at 4:53 pm -      #21

    That video didnot prove Zommari had skills. In fact it showcased more of byakuya’s skills b/c i saw part 2. And you’re right craniummon’s shield isn’t impenitrable but it would indeed take AT LEAST 4 espada to crack it and you can bet his brothers in arms won’t let him take on 4 espada at once. Now he’s just a low level knight probably around the rank of (in espada terms) 7. but he has the power of one at lvl 4 or 5. As you get higher in the ranks even number 0-2 espada wouldn’t be able to hold on against the onslaught of alphamon or omnimon (this may be a bit of an exaggeration but definitly if they were working together they’d defeat numbers 0-4).

  22. AkumaTh August 9, 2009 at 9:58 pm -      #22

    I said, it showed his speed, strength, abilities, and weaknesses. And as for skill, he did managed to survive against one of the 13 Court Squad Capts for three videos didn’t he? And honestly, you can’t say at least because if you do believe the spirit of the humans give Digimon their evolution, then the Espada’s lowest member has more then the average humans, which has been shown to give digimon evolutionary powers and without partners, how the Royal Knights obtained their power.

    And you still didn’t counter Zommari’s ability to take soverin of what one of his eyes can see. Anything outside the 81st Technique, he can take control of people, objects, and parts of them as long as he is still alive. He has enough eyes for each part of their body and Digimon have not shown a way to block said attack. Their shields and weapons will only provide protection once before it becomes his control. And he’s only the 7th.

    And I haven’t even mentioned the others yet outside Aporro.

  23. DaWolf August 10, 2009 at 10:23 pm -      #23

    As for countering Zommari’s take control of everything ability I believe i’ve proved the knights are fast enough to take him down before he get’s a chance to use it. I doubt they’d even let him get into his super-mode before they let loose a move thatdestroys him. As for the whole spirit energy thing, that only applies to the digi-destineds’ digimon as for everyone else they just gain the power naturally, most likely from defeating other digimon and absorbing their energy (ex: renamon). So if this is how all the royal knights got to their level do you really think that after all the battles they’ve won that the espada wouldn’t be just another chance for more power? Now let me give you a few things to counter

    Examon:Avalon’s Gate- Stabs Ambrosius into the enemy’s body, then releases all virus bullets into the enemy, destroying him/her/it from the inside

    Leopardmon:Sword of Annihilation- Extinction Wave (Field Crash’/Extinction): Creates a high charged destructive shock wave from his rapier which destroys everything in its path.

    Crusadermon:Spiral Masquerade/Spiral Slice- Speeds around his enemy, slicing them with the ribbons on his armor.

    UlforceVeedramon:Tensegrity Shield- Releases holy aura from his left V-Bracelet which becomes a barrier.

    And this is just one of each’s attacks. Imagine how much damage/defense those provide. I don’t believe espada has anything to counter these

  24. AkumaTh August 11, 2009 at 10:21 am -      #24

    Digimon Savers/Data Squad canon stated “Thomas discovers that Digimon respond to the “darkness” in humans, putting them at odds with monsters who seek to use humanity’s own vices to bolster their own power.” In short, their anger works like the DATS’s Digimon. So if you believe their Digimon digivolve with spirit, so do the Royal Knights. Too boot, only Digimon Tamers have the idea of Digimon absorbing data.

    Another thing, you didn’t show any evidence to back up your speed theory. The only video you showed was proof of Craniummon’s power, nothing more.

    Since you like to avoid countering moves, I’ll do my own.

    Examon: Avalon’s Gate Vs Zommari Leroux: Defensive Sphere – His release can also be used as a defensive maneuver, as its lower half can become a full sphere that covers his upper body, and was even capable of resisting a full scale attack from Byakuya’s Bankai which completely destroyed the large building they were fighting in, but this robs the use of all the current eyes on his body.

    Leopardmon: Extinction Wave Vs Barragan Luisenbarn: Time Dilation Field – As the Espada who represents “aging”, Barragan is able to dilate the time around him, thereby reducing the speed of any target that comes near him, making their efforts to attack useless as he has sufficient enough time to counter them. The ability also allows him to accelerate the age of whatever he touches, causing the appropriate damage that comes with aging. What’s worse, Baaragan can even use his time dilation field on Kido as he demonstrated when Hachigen encased him in a Kidō cage, which he somehow negated with the field, stating that aging even reaches Kidō, likely implying he accelerated the Kidō cage to the point where it would wear off or run out of sufficient energy.

    Crusadermon: Spiral Masquerade/Spiral Slice Vs Szayel Aporro Granz: Carbon-Copy – He can unleash a massive amount of black liquid from his body out of his back. When droplets of the liquid spraying from his body touch an opponent, a copy of them is created that uses their own individual abilities against them. Since he fires such a vast amount of the liquid upwards, it is nearly impossible for his opponents to dodge or evade the attack. As they are defeated, the clones break apart and multiply, adding to their numbers. He can disperse the clones at will, and they seem to have no free-will or thoughts of their own.

    UlforceVeedramon: Tensegrity Shield Vs Barragan Luisenbarn: Time Dilation Field (again).

    In short: Examon can’t pierce Zommari’s defense sphere (if Byakuya’s Bankai couldn’t do it, nothing can). Leopardmon’s Extinction Wave would be negated since Barragan can use his time freezing ability to make the attack reduced in power (as time passes by, the attack gets weaker and eventually stops). Crusadermon would leave himself open to Aporro’s ability using that move (which again hasn’t been proven to cut an Espada). And finally UlforceVeedramon shield would eventually go down over time as Barragan’s Time Dilation Field affects even barriers.

    And the kicker of all this is Barragan can do this ability without unleashing his Zanpakutō.

    So here’s a move I believe could end this all…

    Barragan Luisenbarn: Respira – Barragan unleashes a black, smoke-like miasma which radiates outward from him. The breath immediately ages and rots anything it comes into contact with. It can move fast enough to strike even Soifon while she was attempting to escape from it at full speed. The breath decays the skin on Soifon’s left arm until only shredded clothes and her arm’s skeleton are left behind. Even after escaping the attack, the deterioration continued until the afflicted area had been amputated. Another notable aspect of the ability is that Barragan can control its speed, as he purposefully released a slower Respira when chasing Ōmaeda. It is apparently even able to dissolve Kidō.

    Heck, considering Barragan Luisenbarn is in the top 4 with abilities like that, he could possibly beat the Royal Knights on his own.

    Man, I love the Bleach Wiki, it has all the data and information I need and is much more detailed for individuals then the Digimon Wiki.

    Sources:
    bleach.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page
    digimon.wikia.com/wiki/Digimon_Wiki

  25. EnigmaJ August 11, 2009 at 2:09 pm -      #25

    To tell you the truth, after watching all the bleach episodes and reading some of the manga, I’m leaning towards the Espada. But I still think the Knights have what it takes to win. I’ll have to do a bit of researching though.

    But nonetheless, AkumaTh, don’t underestimate the Royal Knights.

    The Royal Knights don’t have too many speed feats as far as I know, but there are a few.

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9YwPLbWBl0

    Throughout this video, we see Gallantmon’s durability as he is able to take shots from Beelzemon’s guns to to his armor without taking a scratch. As for the speed feat, Beelzemon starts blitzing his ass between 2:02 and 2:11. Then all of a sudden, at 2:19, as Beelzemon was about to run him over, Gallantmon vanished and even Beelzemon couldn’t figure out where he ran off too. At 2:29, we see Gallantmon attacking Beelzemon from the air, charging up one of his attacks. Notice how much damage it did to the surrounding area, between 2:40 and 2:45? And notice how much he spammed it throughout the rest of the video, before finishing off Beelzemon with a much more powerful move?

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=9q26xWjjUAs

    8:05 to 8:25

    Here, we see Craniamon knocking the kid down so fast that nobody in the group was able to see it. Gaomon even says so. He does it again at 8:34

    Keep in mind that UltraVeedramon is the fastest, so fast that he matches Merukimon in speed ( who was also able to leave afterimages )

    —-

    I have some ideas to counter your theories AkumaTh, but this is all I’ll post for now. I’ll have to quickly scim through some of the Digimon mangas before I get really started

  26. AkumaTh August 11, 2009 at 2:56 pm -      #26

    @EnigmaJ: Nice to see someone showing proof of his words.

    Ex 1: That’s the Tamers version, but I’ll allow it as example since only a few of the Royal Knights fought in Savers. I’m not sure that if it is speed or teleportation, but almost every Espada has displayed amazing speed even before releasing their Zanpakutō. And the attack seems pretty strong in Digimon sense, but since it is a projectile attack the Espada’s speed can neutralize that. And as I recall, Beelzemon survived that last attack.

    Ex 2: Wow, real proof of his speed. But by the looks of the fact, it seems his speedy punches are only good enough to knock back and down a human. On a Mega or an Espada, I doubt a punch like that would do much damage.

    Though I doubt there is any counter defense you can use against Barragan. His Time Barrier can freeze them long enough to unleash his Zanpakutō and that miasma attack of his is fast enough to catch the fastest Soul Reaper and even continues to do damage unless cut off from the rest of the body.

  27. DaWolf August 11, 2009 at 5:59 pm -      #27

    Thank you EnigmaJ, that’s the vid i was talking about when i said he could attack so fast you can’t tell he moved but i couldn’t find that video. And trust me AkumaTh If he wanted to Craniummon would’ve killed Davis he just didn’t want to because of a sense of honor. I highly doubt the time barrier thing has as much power as you say. I don’t believe it can stop a projectile attack if the projectile is energy. Plus that was just the tamer’s gallantmon, trust me when i say the knights’ gallantmon is much stronger

  28. AkumaTh August 11, 2009 at 7:32 pm -      #28

    @DaWolf: Though I still question how powerful his speed is because if he was truly as fast as his attack on Davis was, why didn’t he use it on the DATS when they were battling?

    And I got that line directly from the Bleach Wiki, same as you did with the Digi Wiki. Here’s a direct link to him.
    bleach.wikia.com/wiki/Barragan_Luisenbarn

  29. DaWolf August 12, 2009 at 3:35 pm -      #29

    In the battle with DATS he did display impressive strength and speed if you recall. He probably wasn’t able to mave as fast as he once did because there were 4 mega level digimon on him and attack was his major concern. As for Barragan you’ve miscalculated one thing, Digimon do not age. If one has an elderly appearance that is most likely because that look is unique to it’s species. So let’s picture this shall we: Leopardmon uses his extiction wave and it is blocked by Barragan’s Time barrier (I still don’t believe it has the power to stop energy but I’ll let it slide for now), then, assuming he will age and die, Barragan keeps the shield up as leopardmon comes in for a close range attack and as he realises it has no effect it is too late as leopardmon has struck his lance into his sternum and Barragan is dead.

    Now as for Zommari, you said his shield protected him from Byakuya’s attack that destroyed the building. As i’ve stated before,and this can be proven, all, if not most, of the knights have at least one attack that can destroy a city. Let’s take examon’s draconic impact for example: Soars high into the air, then crashes down like a meteorite, making shockwaves big enough to cover large areas. If he lands directly on Zommari I’m sure his shield is broken if he’s not dead and if he isn’t Avalon’s gate will definately put him away for good. And don’t try to say he can use the soniado to escape it because you can be sure the surface area of attack is way too great for that.

    UlforceVeedramon has several attacks that can contend with anything Barragan can throw at him. And look up the word tengresity, according to wikipedia, physically, anthing of that kind of structure is virtually indestructable.

    You dont believe Crusadermon has the speed to escape an attack like Szayel’s carbon copy? Watch this video www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIELnpXHm_s and pay special attention to the part from 1:10 to 1:17 and tell me the dude can’t outrun/outmanuver a move like that.

    And finally my friend I bring out the knight’s most powerful move, All-Delete from Omnimon. The only possible consieveble way of Espada avoiding that move (because believe me they cannot stop it) is if Barragan uses the dimensional rip thing to get as many espada out of there as possible. They’d better have something rediculously crazy to counter that because if they don’t it’s game over

  30. AkumaTh August 12, 2009 at 4:32 pm -      #30

    @DaWolf: Neither does Kidō, or various inanimate objects. Aging isn’t the problem, it’s simply how long can they live. Everything has an end point and once it runs out, it’s over. Digimon may not age, but they can die if not nurrished or simply if their data becomes out of date. Nothing is absolute from time.

    Destroying a city is not a good example of power. Buildings are not meant to handle attacks, they are only ment to shelter. That’s why buildings are easily destroyed in many animes by simply throwing a guy at one.

    A good way to test the power of an attack is against something with high defensive abilities. Byakuya’s attack looked for every nook and cranny and couldn’t get through. In a sense, Zommari’s shield is the same as Craniummon’s shield, who took pretty much all the DATS’s Mega’s attack and stood still until a certain point.

    According to the Digi Wiki, UlforceVeedramon only have three attacks.
    The Ray of Victory (Shining V Force): Fires a beam from the V-shaped crest on his chest.
    Ulforce Saber: Attacks using the saber that extends from his right V-Bracelet.
    Tensegrity Shield: Releases holy aura from his left V-Bracelet which becomes a barrier.
    Unless he has more attacks in the Manga, these don’t compare against Barragan.

    You showed me Crusadermon’s speed, I’ll show Szayel’s attack in action:
    www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGEvYkSEPHY
    3:10 is a good place to start. Dodging the attack is like dodging rain. And two of the victims are pretty fast too.

    And finally, All Delete, from Omnimon X: The most powerful “annihilation” attack in Digimon history; its name derives from the Digimon kana engraved upon the Grey Sword, which starts to emit lights of destruction upon the attack’s activation. He uses this attack at the end of Digital Monster X-Evolution, which reset his former master and the Digital World itself.

    If it can reset the digital world itself, how can it reset the real world? In short, this is the same as rebooting a computer. So this is definitly the end all for Digimon, but not for anything else, as his master got reseted, not destroyed.

  31. EnigmaJ August 12, 2009 at 7:45 pm -      #31

    -“That’s the Tamers version, but I’ll allow it as example since only a few of the Royal Knights fought in Savers.”

    Thats the thing. The Savers Royal Knights are not by any means the “official” or “current” Royal Knights. They just happen to be the most recent versions. In this case, the Royal Knights are somewhat similar to Megaman, Link, or Pokemon, who have had many different versions of themselves used in different games/mangas/animes etc. The rule on BankGambling is that you use the current versions of the characters fighting. This applies to most characters because most change and grow as a series goes on, and most canon sources only further this. However, in digimon, everytime the Royal Knights appear, its usually in a different anime/manga which are usually not related to each other chronologically. From what I’ve seen, when such an issue arises ( especially when little info is given on each seperate appearance ), composite characters are usually used. ( Meaning feats are taken from several different sources to form one character )

    -“I’m not sure that if it is speed or teleportation”

    You have to admit, even if it was teleportation, it would still be pretty useful ;). Thought I doubt it was. Its never been implied anywhere ( as far as I know ) that Gallantmon can teleport.

    -“almost every Espada has displayed amazing speed even before releasing their Zanpakutō.”

    Your right about that. But I don’t recall all Espada or other Arrancar necessarily gaining speed after releasing thier Zanpakuto. Correct me if I’m wrong.

    -“And the attack seems pretty strong in Digimon sense”

    0.0 The first time he used it ( while he was descending ), it appeared to do massive area damage. I know Cero’s are quite capable of doing that to, but I wouldn’t call it out when comparing it. Anyways, I rarely see Cero’s actually doing massive damage to the surroundings ( probably becaase it usually hits thier intended targets and when they do miss, its not emphasized ). Though I remember Grimmjow using some kind of super cero. That was pretty badass, and it would mess up the Knights real bad if it hits them. But if I recall, it wook mad long to charge and the only reason he had much of a chance of actually hitting Ichigo was because he was injured. Am I right?

    -“But by the looks of the fact, it seems his speedy punches are only good enough to knock back and down a human. On a Mega or an Espada, I doubt a punch like that would do much damage.”

    Your right about that, thought he really didn’t seem to be trying when he knocked Davis down. I can argue that on a Mega or a Arrancar, he’d try alot harder. But I guess you can also make the point that the harder he fights, the slower he seems to get. I don’t recall Craniamon going all that fast during any of his fights really ( thought I might have to rewatch them ). Though DaWolf brings up a good point.

    Though in my opinion, the real reason he appears so slow in his fights is because they are so huge. I believe, for the sake of making the fights seem drawn out and epic, speed is momentarily ignored. Speed rarely seems to be an issue in digimon (atleat in the anime), the one who wins usually seem to be the strongest/most powerful. Moot I guess.

    -“His Time Barrier can freeze them long enough to unleash his Zanpakutō and that miasma attack of his is fast enough to catch the fastest Soul Reaper and even continues to do damage unless cut off from the rest of the body.”

    I doubt any of the Knights are as fast as Soifon. If any could match her speed, it would be UlForceVeedramon ( Still reading up on him). I guess I shouldn’t go for trying to see who could outrun it.

    -“As for Barragan you’ve miscalculated one thing, Digimon do not age.”

    0.0 I’ve never really heard that before… hmm… I think I’ve seen some pretty old digimon among relatively young digimon of the same species before. I think it might depend on the species themselves. In a group, sometimes we’d a group of low-level digimon lead by a digimon that they eventually evolve into. But there are rare occasions where weak digimon are led by the same weak digimon, but old

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBGT036fTfE

    See 5:00 to see what I mean.

    -“Though I doubt there is any counter defense you can use against Barragan.”

    I’m already on to that. I’m onto something that I think the Royal Knights might have to counter that. But I need to look it over a bit so I know what I’m talking about. I should have it up by tomorrow.

  32. AkumaTh August 12, 2009 at 9:52 pm -      #32

    @EnigmaJ: I always forget that Digimon has different timelines for everything when stuff like this happens.

    Yeah, it would be useful. Shame he didn’t use it against D-Reaper (unless I forgotten).

    As for speed post Zanpakutō: Zommari (Man, do I like this guy or what?) used his speed afterward to escape Byakuya enough to get his rant out. Starrk moves so fast he can parry a close range killing blow. Grimmjow gains animalistic boosts of speed and agility. Jiruga retains his speed but gains extra arms. So I think it’s safe to say unless their released forms are mostrous, they retain their speed, but not 100% sure.

    Grimmjow’s Cero is more noticable in damage because he likes to do it point blank. Unless you’re referring to the one he used in his final battle on Ichigo in Aizen’s base. That’s called Gran Rey Cero. He mixes his blood into the Cero, so it could take the same length of time charging a regular Cero since his blood contains spirit energy. Then again, that could be speculation.

    Sometimes characters give up speed for power and vise versa while attacking.

    Oh yeah, one final thing about Barragan:
    Resurrección Special Ability: While in his Resurrección form, Barragan is able to age and deteriorate every object around him; even the very building he walks upon begins deteriorating from his mere presence. He is also protected from most close range and melee attacks as everything that comes within a specific range of him rapidly ages and disintegrates before making contact.

    DUDE! And I thought he was powerful before!

  33. DaWolf August 13, 2009 at 1:59 pm -      #33

    @ EnigmaJ: In that video i think that was a different species of digimon that just looks old.

    @ AkumaTh: Data does become out dated but essentially is not destroyed unless someone deletes it (ex: kurata’s machines). So, unless one of the espada is a computer whiz, they can’t completely destroy one of the knights. If defeated they would just be returned to digi-egg form and eventually return to knight status. As for the All-Delete, you can’t see the implications it would have on the real world? Imagine every computer’s hard drive being completely deleted and reset. All e-mails, pictures, IM’s, weapon plans, microsoft word documents, maybe even the internet, maybe even BankGambling! would be gone. And that’s just if (keyword “if”) the attack doesn’t phase organic beings. If it does then it would be just like re-writing human history, taking us back to the dark ages.

    I know all this seems a little far fetched but that’s how powerful technology has become in this modern world and the espada (correct me if i’m wrong) use techniques from the past.

    From what I’ve heard I change what i said, the espada wouldn’t be instanly destroyed, they might actually put up a good fight. But in the end I have to give this to the knights from their sheer raw power derived from a constantly changing world.

    (sounds like an essay dont it?)

  34. AkumaTh August 13, 2009 at 3:34 pm -      #34

    @DaWolf: Well, Szayel is a scientist and an inventor. If it’s to kill something I’m sure he can make something. And isn’t simply returning to their Digi-Egg form another form of defeat. Even the 4 Fiend of Series 1 (as I like to call them) aren’t shown in the second season despite becoming eggs. That means it takes time for them to return to their original state.

    Besides, Barragan’s effect deteriorate every object around him, like a virus wiping out memory. I’m sure he has the same effect on them as anything else he is close too.

    “If it does then it would be just like re-writing human history, taking us back to the dark ages. ” And the Espada care because..? I still go against the All-Delete because it can only take place where their surroundings are digital. If they did it on the internet, I can see that happening. In the real world, not really. Our data are within solid objects (computers). To even restart it, you must physically set it like that from within. It’s not like light can type up everything. And I haven’t seen Digimon hack computers from outside them.

    “I know all this seems a little far fetched but that’s how powerful technology has become in this modern world and the espada (correct me if i’m wrong) use techniques from the past.”
    This isn’t present Vs past, this is obvious Vs subtle. When the Digimon attack, you know it’s either one that is going to do damage or something that protects them. When certain members of the Espada do an attack, you have no clue.

    An example of one is which Zommari (again) used an attack on Byakuya. He dodged it expecting it to be a lazer or some projectile attack, but it turns out it was something that controls part of the body, or the entire thing if it hits the head.

    Another example will be Barragan’s Respira, which looks like some kind of poison gas but turns out to be something that can melt you to the bone!

    Power is nothing if your opponent can see it coming and avoid it.

  35. DaWolf August 13, 2009 at 8:04 pm -      #35

    Your opponent seeing it coming is not the same as being able to avoid an attack, which, whether you believe it or not, most of the espada won’t be able to do.

    Another thing you’re not considering is that every other attack that digimon have keep the same power in the real world as they do in the digital world, so why would All-Delete be any different? If it annihilates everything in the digital world why cant it annihilate everthing in the real world when all other attacks retain the same power in both worlds? I think the Espada don’t have anything to counter such a move so you’d rather avoid it alltogether.

  36. DaWolf August 13, 2009 at 8:12 pm -      #36

    Your opponent seeing it coming is not the same as them being able to avoid it which whether you believe it or not, most of the Espada cant do.

    Another thing you’re not considering is that other attacks that digimon have work the same in both worlds. So why would All-Delete be any different? If it annihilates everything in the digital world why would All-Delete be any different in the real world if every other attacks that digimon have work the same?

  37. AkumaTh August 13, 2009 at 10:11 pm -      #37

    Sonido is a technique used by Arrancar which allows them to move at extreme speeds, making it highly similar to the Hohō (or Flash Steps as they are called in the English Dub) that Shinigami use.

    Every Espada member knows this because it’s instinctive. And the major of them are masters of it. The others are unknown.. But if the weakest one is just an expert, it could be safe to assume the others are as well.

    And All Delete can not work because it effect data. Anything that affects Digimon as a status effect (like reseting) does not effect anything from the real world. An example would be Kokatorimon’s Stun Flame Shot/Frozen Fire Shot in Season 1. Worked on Digimon, not on the humans. So all Digimon have is destructive powers and defensive powers, nothing that can effect the Espada like their attacks can.

    And one more for Espada Speed Vs Royal Knight attack… Do you reall think this:
    www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPRdpHhZfmU
    Can not avoid an attack like this:

  38. EnigmaJ August 14, 2009 at 11:45 am -      #38

    @AkumaTh

    After doing a bit a reseach on the Knights, I’ve come across a few interesting tid bits of information about them, and which leaves my opinion of this fight unchanged. I’m still leaning towards the Espada at this point, but I feel the Knights have what it takes to win.

    Running low on time, so I’ll only counter one of your point ( a very crucial one )
    ———————————–

    “Barragan Luisenbarn: As the Espada who represents “aging”, Barragan is able to dilate the time around him, thereby reducing the speed of any target that comes near him, making their efforts to attack useless as he has sufficient enough time to counter them. The ability also allows him to accelerate the age of whatever he touches, causing the appropriate damage that comes with aging. What’s worse, Baaragan can even use his time dilation field on Kido as he demonstrated when Hachigen encased him in a Kidō cage, which he somehow negated with the field, stating that aging even reaches Kidō, likely implying he accelerated the Kidō cage to the point where it would wear off or run out of sufficient energy.”

    As I was looking up information on the Knights, this never left my mind. I have no doubt as to what implications it means for the them. His Time Dilation effects would certainly have negative affects on them. As we’ve seen, his power doesn’t necessarily effects things that age, but things that don’t exist indefinately. If his respira manages to hits the Knights, they would quickly begin “aging”. This could mean them weaking to the point they run out of energy, and become hollow shells unable to battle, or the point that they become digi-eggs. I find this funny because the Knights have the perfect warrior to combat him.

    UlforceVeedramon. He’s been brought up a couple of times in this debate, but I don’t think you guys truly understand yet how much of a factor he is. Lets start from the beginning. The top three Royal Knights are granted abilities that are known as the Inforce. These abilities grant them amazing power in battle. these Knights are Omnimon ( Wields the Omni Inforce ), Alphamon ( Leader of the Royal Knights, wields the Alpha Inforce ), and UlforceVeedramon ( Wields the Ulforce, aka Ultimate Force ). Omnimon and Alphamon will be explained later, but right now I’ll focus on UlforceVeedramon.

    “Most Digimon’s ‘Overwrite Sequences’, which allow them to act, deplete over their lifespan, but this Dragon Knight has the ability to use “UlForce”, a holy version of the Overwrite Sequence that allows him to regenerate faster than even direct deletion techniques can keep up with.” – Digimon Wikia

    Basically, the Ulforce can be thought of as a healing factor. Over the course of a digimon’s lifespan, thier Overwrite Sequences whcih allows them to act ( with emotion ) deplete over thier lifespan. This means that they slowly lose power and soon, they eventually reach thier physical limitations.

    www.onemanga.com/Digimon_Adventure_V-Tamer_01/34/15/
    www.onemanga.com/Digimon_Adventure_V-Tamer_01/34/15/

    The Ulforce, however, is a type of Holy Overwrite. Instead of deteriorating over time, you can think ot as constantly refreshing itself. Constantly healing the digimon in real time, “undo”ing any negative effect on the digimon.

    www.onemanga.com/Digimon_Adventure_V-Tamer_01/54/05/
    www.onemanga.com/Digimon_Adventure_V-Tamer_01/54/06/

    This litarally makes UlforceVeedramon immune to any damage, whatsoever. Even Barragan’s aging techniques would have no effect. Still have doubts? In this manga, there was a digimon known as Arkadimon, who has a technique known as the God Matrix. With this attack, he laucnhes beams which causes massive area damage. But here’s the kicker. It reduces everything it destroys to basic one and zeros. It literally deletes its target directly.

    www.onemanga.com/Digimon_Adventure_V-Tamer_01/53/12/
    www.onemanga.com/Digimon_Adventure_V-Tamer_01/53/13-14/
    www.onemanga.com/Digimon_Adventure_V-Tamer_01/53/15/

    With the power of the Ulforce, UlforceVeedramon was able to survive this this attack.

    www.onemanga.com/Digimon_Adventure_V-Tamer_01/54/13/
    www.onemanga.com/Digimon_Adventure_V-Tamer_01/54/14/
    www.onemanga.com/Digimon_Adventure_V-Tamer_01/54/15/
    www.onemanga.com/Digimon_Adventure_V-Tamer_01/54/16/

    Do you know what this means? Barragan’s technique will do nothing but tickle him. Since his data can literally rewrite itself faster than being directly deleted, it will be doing so faster than Barragan can age him. He will be “undo”ing any and all of Barragan’s attacks faster than it can even cause change. Barragan tries to cut him in half with Gran Caída? That won’t phase him either

    Barragan’s Time Dilation is not perfect either, however.

    1) He’s never shown to be able to stop time completely. Only slowing
    2) His control over time is limited to maybe a meter or more around him. All UlforceVeedramon has to do is stay out of range, as he has plenty of long range attacks.

    UlforceVeedramon has attacks to stay out of range of Barragan’s “age” shielding. Barragan won’t even be able to ignore or take his eyes of UlforceVeedramon either. None of the Espada have to ability to harm him. He will have to focus all of his attention on trying to try to slow him down with his Time Dilation.

    More for later ;)

  39. DaWolf August 14, 2009 at 12:27 pm -      #39

    Wow. I’m a considerable digi-expert and i never knew that. I am ashamed

  40. DaWolf August 14, 2009 at 12:36 pm -      #40

    But not to be outdone, I foud out what the Omega (omni) Inforce does:

    This ability lets Omnimon read what is to happen in the following moments during battle, effectively retaliating to any situation possible.

    Now I’m not sure but I believe the Alpha Inforce has a similar effect. Sorry to steal your thunder Enigma but when your honor is challenged your honor is challenged

  41. AkumaTh August 14, 2009 at 12:52 pm -      #41

    @EnigmaJ: Impressive research. This is what I get for not knowing about the Mangas.

    Though there are differences between barriers and attacks. We’ve seen this stop an attack, which pretty much happens and ends. But what happens against a barrier, which is constant. But then again, if his barrier slows down time, would it also slow down the effects of that? I also wonder if this is something he activates or something that works on it’s own…

    “None of the Espada have to ability to harm him.”
    Who needs to harm him, when he can be working for them. Zommari’s ability lets him control parts of the body (or all of it if it hits the head). Nothing for rewriting or destroying, but allows him to control a body. This is like mind control, which healing factors have no effect on.

    Zommari would be the most effective on UlforceVeedramon, who’s attack range is that of sight. While trying to avoid Barragan’s time distortion, he would leave himself open to Zommari’s Amor attack. If part of his body is controlled, he wouldn’t be able to cut it off because of Ulforce’s abilities (if it acts on it’s own). Too boot, if he hits the head Ultriforce would become a slave and attack his own allies.

    Unless you have examples of Ulforce breaking stuff like that…

    Another thing, if UlforceVeedramon has this ability, why was he having trouble in Savers when trying to separate the Digital World from crashing into the Real World?

  42. AkumaTh August 14, 2009 at 1:07 pm -      #42

    @DaWolf: Unless the manga shows any difference, it sounds like he can see a few moments in the future. Then that isn’t much use because every instant of Omnimon I’ve seen he still gets surprised.

    Another thing I want to add about Ulforce, does it work on aging? Because the time distortion field speeds up the aging process, not like his Respira which is the virus like damage.

  43. EnigmaJ August 14, 2009 at 10:31 pm -      #43

    -“Now I’m not sure but I believe the Alpha Inforce has a similar effect. Sorry to steal your thunder Enigma but when your honor is challenged your honor is challenged”

    The Alpha Inforce is a bit different. Depending on what I find, I might or might not bring the other Inforces into this debate.

    -“Though there are differences between barriers and attacks. We’ve seen this stop an attack, which pretty much happens and ends. But what happens against a barrier, which is constant. But then again, if his barrier slows down time, would it also slow down the effects of that?”

    I think you misunderstand the Ulforce. It doesn’t stop the attack. It just that it heals UlforceVeedramon fully at the instant the attack does damage. Imagine trying to take a house down one brick at a time, but a new brick respawns the instant you remove one. This is the Ultimate Force. As for the barrier, I’ve already mentioned it.

    1) He’s never shown to be able to stop time completely. Only slowing
    2) His control over time is limited to maybe a meter or more around him. All UlforceVeedramon has to do is stay out of range, as he has plenty of long range attacks.

    This is his barrier. This is why is why I said UlForceVeedramon will stay in the distance. Once he realizes that when he gets in close, his punches and slashes are slowed to the point that they don’t connect, he will stay at a distance. Barragan’s barrier slows down physical objects, but does it slow down energy? He’s never done so. Even if it can slow down energy, think about it. Ulforceveedramon’s long range attacks ( Ray of Victory ) is light based. Can Barragan slow down light to the point that he can react to it? Barragan is better off trying to stay on his feet and to keep moving. Even then, even if he could stay away from UlforceVeedramon, theres still the little problem that he can’t hurt him

    -“Who needs to harm him, when he can be working for them. Zommari’s ability lets him control parts of the body (or all of it if it hits the head). ”

    Zommari’s ability to control others is Kido based. Hence, it doesn’t target the brain directly or travel at the speed of thought. Because of its Kido properties, its possible to block it. Byakuya did this actually, blocking it using a Kido Barrier. See 4:27 – 4:36

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=TgZG_5RBwMQ&feature=related

    Because of this, I have no doubt that it can be blocked by UlforceVeedramon’s Tensegrity Shield. Remember?

    www.onemanga.com/Digimon_Adventure_V-Tamer_01/54/16/

    “Tensegrity Shield: Releases holy aura from his left V-Bracelet which becomes a barrier. ” – Digimon Wikia

    -“Another thing, if UlforceVeedramon has this ability, why was he having trouble in Savers when trying to separate the Digital World from crashing into the Real World?”

    If I remember correctly, the Knights were trying to hold up the digital world to prevent it from crashing back into the real world. This would require immense strength and PIS for this to actually happen. I don’t see what the Ulforce has to do with this o.O.

    -“Then that isn’t much use because every instant of Omnimon I’ve seen he still gets surprised.”

    Unlike Alphamon and UlforceVeedramon, Omnimon is not able to use his Inforce (Omega Inforce) in his basic state. He is only able to use it as
    Omnimon X, which he can use Slide Evolution to reach.

    -“Another thing I want to add about Ulforce, does it work on aging?”

    Theres no reason why not.

    This is what I said before: “Over the course of a digimon’s lifespan, thier Overwrite Sequences whcih allows them to act ( with emotion ) deplete over thier lifespan. This means that they slowly lose power and soon, they eventually reach thier physical limitations.”

    This is, for all intents and purposes, digimon “aging”. Digimon with more violent overwrites are more powerful during thier lifetimes, but they have shorter lifespan. Digimon with less violent overwrites live longer, but are not as powerful.
    UlforceVeedramon’s has a holy version of the overwrite, which constantly rewrites its 1’s and 0’s. This should leave his body in a constant state. Kindof like Wolverine, but better.

  44. AkumaTh August 15, 2009 at 1:24 am -      #44

    @EnigmaJ: The Ulforce did technically stop it from doing it’s function. And the example is exactly what I meant about that. If it was an attack, it will work like that. But if you slow down time but you yourself is able to continue moving in your speed, then it would be slowed down.

    The question is, when he finds out, would it be too late to escape? This is why the Espada is a threat in a fight, by the time you find out how their attack works it maybe too late. Kidō is a kind of energy as well. If it could age Kidō, it is possible for Kidō (or other energy based attacks) to slow down by the barrier.

    As for “Ray of Victory”, it is light based, not light. Remember Digimon has this whole Light/Darkness thing being spiritual, not literal. That’s why you can still see it coming. If it was truly light, it would be instantanious. Pretty much, Light in this case is Good.

    I’ll agree that UlforceVeedramon’s Tensegrity Shield could block it. But remember what I said earlier “by the time you find out how their attack works it maybe too late.” Unless he knew how Zommari’s attacked worked before the fight, he would be left open.

    As for the Savers moment: Well, if it required strenght to lift the rock. He, along with the rest of them, were running out of strength. Running out of strength should be similar to losing data, shouldn’t it? So using the Ulforce would refill his strength, right?

    Then again you could make the case that even if it did, the other Royal Knights couldn’t regain it and not even he alone can keep them seperate.

    And one more thing, is the Ulforce something he has to activate himself? Or is it something that acts on it’s own?

  45. EnigmaJ August 16, 2009 at 12:01 am -      #45

    -“But if you slow down time but you yourself is able to continue moving in your speed, then it would be slowed down.”

    Ahh, now I see. Your trying to say that Barragan’s time dilation could slow down the Ulforce. Thats actually a good point I haven’t considered.

    But I have two problems with.

    1) What your talking about is his barrier. Its his barrier that slows down projectiles and other incoming objects. He doesn’t seem to be able to control time far from his body. Imagine a small bubble around in which he has he is able to slow down and fast forward time. There are many situations in his fight against Barragan where if he could have controlled time a distance from his body, he would have done so.

    www.onemanga.com/Bleach/356/10/
    www.onemanga.com/Bleach/356/10/
    Soifon’s kick only slows when its very close to Barragan

    www.onemanga.com/Bleach/356/16/
    Barragan has to touch Soifon to age her bones

    www.onemanga.com/Bleach/360/07/
    Noitce how the rocks disintegrate when its a mere few inches from face. Note, this is even with his Bankai activated

    www.onemanga.com/Bleach/357/05/
    www.onemanga.com/Bleach/357/06/
    Here, we see alittle bit larger range to his aging abilities, but the result is the same. The objects around him age and die a specific range around him.

    www.onemanga.com/Bleach/360/18-19/
    And finally here. Soifon caught Barragan off gaurd and actually managed to fire off her shot. If he was able to slow down time at such a range, he would have done so, and dodging it would have been trivial. To save himself, he caused it to explode prematurely to lessen the extent of the explosion, nonetheless, he still took a direct hit.

    Also, this situation should be no problem for him either.
    www.onemanga.com/Bleach/369/18/
    www.onemanga.com/Bleach/369/19/

    It only makes sense that he has the attack “Respira” in the first place. If he could already control time at a distance, wouldn’t that make such an attack trivial?

    And like I was saying before, UlforceVeedramon would stay in the distance out of the the way of his Time Dilation Field once he realizes that it slows down time. Assuming Barragan could slow down his healing, once UlforceVeedramon leaves the field he’s instantly be back to good health.

    2) We are assuming the Ulforce is something that can be slowed down. God Matrix is an attack that “directly” deletes its target. Since the move directly deletes a large area ( larger than UlforceVeedramon ), if the attack were to work on him, he would have been deleted as a whole. His whole body would have been delete instantaneously at one point. For UlforceVeedramon to survive this, this can only mean one of two things.

    a) The Ulforce heals UlforceVeedramon at the exact instant the attack does damage. This is assuming healing shouldn’t be possible after he’s already dead. God Matrix would have deleted his whole body at the same time as it did the land. If he can’t heal after he’s already dead, the healing couldn’t have taken place even an instant after God Matrix hits. This suggests that even the healing would be immune to being slowed down, because in this scenario it wouldn’t take any time to occur.

    Even if were to accept this scenario and still say Barragan could slow down his healing. How much could even slow that healing by?

    www.onemanga.com/Bleach/369/17/

    This suggests a limit to the speed at which he could manipulate time. He would have to manipulate the time by alot to slow down near instantaneous healing to noticeable degree.

    2) UlforceVeedramon does not heal at the instant the attack takes place. Again, God Matrix deletes its target instantaneously. In this scenario, UlforceVeedramon has had to had healed after he was deleted. This suggests UlforceVeedramon can heal after he is deleted directly. Meaning, his body healed instantly after he’s gone, after he’s already been deleted. This suggests that even if Barragan slows down his healing, it woud be impossible for him to get rid of him permanently.

    -“Kidō is a kind of energy as well. If it could age Kidō, it is possible for Kidō (or other energy based attacks) to slow down by the barrier. ”

    Good point. I concede to your point.

    -“As for “Ray of Victory”, it is light based, not light. Remember Digimon has this whole Light/Darkness thing being spiritual, not literal. That’s why you can still see it coming. If it was truly light, it would be instantanious. Pretty much, Light in this case is Good.”

    Hmm, I understand what your trying to say here. Point conceded.

    “Then again you could make the case that even if it did, the other Royal Knights couldn’t regain it and not even he alone can keep them seperate.”

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=TEMjnMUaAOU&feature=related

    To a degree, using the last bit of his strenght Craniamon was able to hold up the digital world on his own. It only until King Drasil started attacking him at 3:30 when he started giving in to the stress. The remaining Knights then ran to his aid. At that point, they all seemed to be putting considerable effort into holding the worlds apart. At 4:06, we see them again. At that point, they’re all working together so it really shouldn’t have been as hard from when Craniamon was doing it by himself. But at, 4:18 we see Drasil attacking them again, weakening them once more.

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=I37RRZlWPto

    5:43 Craniamon still seemed to be holding taking most of the stress. At 5:47, we see the Gallantmon, Magnamon and UlforceVeedramon. They really didn’t seem to be having that much trouble at that point. ( But with all those lights reaching up into the air, you can argue that they were helping them too )

    -“And one more thing, is the Ulforce something he has to activate himself? Or is it something that acts on it’s own?”

    www.onemanga.com/Digimon_Adventure_V-Tamer_01/56/13/

    In this scene, Taichi wonders why UlforceVeedramon’s damage isn’t going away. Then, Gabu yells out that it isn’t working. This, atleast in my mind tells me that it it works on its own.

    Also, here MagnaAngemon says that the barrier uses the Ulforce to strengthen itself, suggesting that the barrier itself was able to draw power from the Ulforce.

    Also, the fact that the Ulforce is a Holy version of the Overwrite, which in its original state is not something digimon have control over, suggests it happens by itself.

    “This is why the Espada is a threat in a fight, by the time you find out how their attack works it maybe too late.”

    Getting tired. I’ll finish this off tomorrow, hopefully to counter other Espada, especially Zommori. Getting tired of mention UlforceVeedramon so much. In any case, I agree with you. In a straight up fight, with the Espada being bloodlusted, they could easily defeat the Knights quite easily. For example Zommari, he has to release his Zanpakto to use Amor: 1) Without using Ressurecion, he would be one of the lower end Espada, not much of a threat. 2) It takes a good amount of time for him to actually release his Zanpatuko, leaving himself wide-open. Like I said before, I actually think the Espada have a better chance of winning. But this fight could go anyway, depending on who matches up with who. If Barragan matches up against any of the other Knights, they’d fall quickly. If UlforceVeedramon matches up against any of the other Espada, other than Barragan or Zommari, there would nothing they could do against him.

    Zommari would definately be perfect to counter UlforceVeedramon. As a matter of fact, assuming he could hit them all, he could possibly take control of all the Knights and end the fight. But for him to attack UlforceVeeedramon, he would have to not be fighting anybody at the moment. There are 11 Royal Knights and 10 Espada, leaving one more Knight than the Espada. This means, chances are, he’d be too busy fighting someone else to worry about him.

    I’ll say who could probably fight him tomorrow. Sorry for the long posts, just how I am.

  46. AkumaTh August 16, 2009 at 12:52 am -      #46

    @EnigmaJ: Wow! You are frikkin awesome with getting facts! All I have is the Bleach Wiki and the anime.

    Everything you mentioned is an excellent point. But the only defense I can come up with is the ending of Chapter 369 is vague and Chapter 370 can possibly continue this fight. But until then, I have nothing for that defense.

    Thanks for clearing that up with the whole “work on it own or not” thing. It’s kind of like Deadpool’s only not as “graphic”.

    So let’s ignore that scene unless someone brings up something new in there to the table.

    Heh, UlforceVeedramon is to you what Zommari is to me.

    As for the numbers, Aporro’s abilities has been proven to create clones of his opponents. How effected I can’t confirm but he could double or triple the numbers if they don’t see what it is in time.

  47. DaWolf August 17, 2009 at 6:14 pm -      #47

    I was watching this video (www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOCKTeGrSjo) and I have one question, is the puppet thing the carbon copy you’re talking about? If it is then it’s just like Voo Doo and I highly doubt it would affect a knight considering a digimon’s anatomy is different from a human’s. You can counter this by saying digimon have to eat and therefor at least have stomachs but there’s no guarantee this ability would work on an inorganic being. Also, from what I saw, he doesn’t look that powerful. I know he pretty much pwnd Renji with one hand but I assure you the knights are a lot more powerful and he’d have a much more difficult time with them. As for the pheonix-like ability 1. I believe he said it only works when he’s in contact with someone and 2. If they can’t kill him Alphamon can probably send him to another dimension since most of his attacks call for interaction with another dimension

  48. AkumaTh August 17, 2009 at 6:26 pm -      #48

    @DaWolf: No, that’s a different attack all together. The attack I suggested is a few episodes before that.

    I had a video link above somewhere with the example, which is more of a spring of black liquid.

    That attack I didn’t bring up was because of the anatomy of Digimon. But then again, he did copy Mayuri’s fake organs so it could work on inanimate objects. Oh, it could be that each piece represent a specific code of the Digimon, and by breaking one he could destroy it completely. I wonder if Ulforce can work on itself…

  49. EnigmaJ August 17, 2009 at 9:17 pm -      #49

    Alright, I guess I’ll start with Apporo and then deal with Zommari later on in my post.

    From the way I see it, Aaroneiro, Apporo, and Zommari are not threats to the Royal Knights at all in thier non-released states. Its only when they use Ressurecion do things get interesting, albiet, the result will be different for some.

    Where do I start… Apporo has shown a quite a few abilities in the anime. Unfortunately, many of them were either location based ( he was only able to use them because Renji and Isida were in his palace ) or available to him only because he prepared for the battle earlier. Really, out of everything he’s shown thusfar, only a few of them will be usable in this battle.

    “Voodoo Doll: By grabbing an opponent with one of his “wings” and then spitting them out, one of the strands of his “wings” becomes engorged and bursts with purple liquid, creating a small doll that has the victim’s likeness.”

    Aporro has show the ability to create Voodoo dolls out of the an enemy by wrapping his tendrils around them.

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2habNM6jAw&NR=1 ( see 5:30 – 6:25 )

    But seriosly, I don’t see this being of that much use in this fight. For one thing, in most sources, the Royal Knights are huge. I wonder if the tendrils would even be able to wrap around them. If you want to use the normal Human sized versions, thats fine with me too though. The only reason Aporro was able to capture Renji and Ishida so easily was because they were already exhausted from be toyed with so much before and they were caught off gaurd. If you notice, at 5:14 Ishida and Renji may have been able to score direct hits on him, but two giant hollows stepped in the way. He’s not gonna have this kind of help in this battle. Such a trick wouldn’t work on anyone Captain level or any of the Royal Knights in fact.

    “Carbon-Copy: He can unleash a massive amount of black liquid from his body out of his back. When droplets of the liquid spraying from his body touch an opponent, a copy of them is created that uses their own individual abilities against them. Since he fires such a vast amount of the liquid upwards, it is nearly impossible for his opponents to dodge or evade the attack.”

    Ok, this is the one I really wanted to get to. Because this is the one that could potentially backfire on him. He has shown the ability to create copies of his enemies by raining down droplets of liquid on them. Apparently it is very difficult to avoid so I won’t argue that the Knights will be able to stay away from it for very long. The Knights have a counter for this guy to however. Examon. ( Lol, I hope your not expecting a special ability or something xD. )

    Examon has the perfect attack to counter Aporro’s Carbon-Copies. Let’s start off with explaining some of the Carbon-Copies flaws.

    “As they are defeated, the clones break apart and multiply, adding to their numbers. He can disperse the clones at will, and they seem to have no free-will or thoughts of their own.” – Bleach Wikia

    The Clones have no free-will and have little thoughts of thier own. Thier are very inefficient in this respect. The only time they ever really attack is when they are attacked back, and they do so with the same exact attack they are attack with. The only things these copies are good at is copying. Even when they are destroyed, as soon as they come back, they attack with the very move that destroyed them

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPsqZ3nGaCU

    4:16 – Both Renji’s attack with Zabimaru in the exact same way. After doing so, Renji mixes things up by extending his sword and attacking from above. This shows that the even though the clones copy thier attacks, its still not something that happens automatically and its possible to surprise them.

    4:39 – Both Ishidas are locked in fierce duel. Once again, the Copy is copying its enemy to the letter. So much infact, that none of Ishidas attacks are getting through. However, Ishida is apparently eventually able to get one arrow through that kills the copy

    Both these instance show us something else about the copies. Not only do they not share the original’s intelligence, they don’t share thier durability. In the first examply, the the Renji copy was destroyed by a simple strike from Zabimaru. Its hard to tell, but in the second example, it appears the Ishida copy was destroyed by maybe a few arrow shots. At 5:30, Aporro even explains that thats s strong as the clones get and really thier true strength is in numbers.

    Finally, last example.

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2habNM6jAw&feature=related

    In the beginning, the newly revived clones attempt to attack the originals with the attacks that destroyed them earlier. The important part is the fact that at 0:24, Renji uses Bankai. Then, at 0:38, the all of the clones copy him and attempt to use Bankai aswell. The resulting explosion causes the whole palace to collapse on them.

    Examon, has never appeared on screen or in the any of the mangas before. But we know some of his attacks by looking at the TCG.

    “Avalon’s Gate: Impales the enemy with Ambrosius and unloads its entire munitions payload in one cataclysmic strike.

    Pendragon’s Glory: Stages a laser bombardment with Ambrosius from the higher stratosphere.

    Dragonic Impact: Takes advantage of the friction-generated heat of rapid atmospheric re-entry and careens into its adversary in a catastrophic dive-bomb. ”

    Overpowered, I know =]. Now, with these three moves alone, we see a variety of overly powered attacks that could deal decent amount of damage to any Espada member. In my mind, Avalon’s Gate and Pendragin’s Glory are all Examon needs to quickly berid himself of Aporro. Unlike the other Espada members, he doesn’t seem to have a hierro and so likely have the lowest durability of all.

    But, this is what I really think seals Aporro’s fate. Because this fight is most likely not going to take place in his palace and he most likely will not have any prep time, he will most like use Resurrecion as soon as possible ( especially after he realizes he’s not strong enough in his non-released state ). At some point in the battle he will probably attempt to use his Carbon Copy ability against the Knights as you say. When he does this, Examon will try and fight back the copies and destroy them. As we see in earlier videos-

    ( 4:55 – 5:14 www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPsqZ3nGaCU)

    Just breaking enough one clone is enough to spawn atleast a dozen ( I count atleast 20 Ishida clones ). At this point, Examon will be facing Aporro along with atleast a dozen or more other copies of himself ( In all seriousness, against the Knights I don’t see why they don’t just run in and attack Aporro directly. Shouldn’t be that hard. ) All he has to do now is use Dragonic Impact. As he rises into the upper atmoshpere and out of it into outerspace, his carbon copies will follow. Once he starts his decent towards Aporro, one of two things will happen

    1) As Examon descends, the dozen or so clones will follow suit. In this scenario, Aporro will have to deal with not one, but 15 or so Examons descending violently towards his position. The area damage done by this attack would be massive. If the attack doesn’t kill. Aporro, Examon could just repeat the same process. Now Aporro will have atleast 100 Examons coming back down at him. This is just another example of using his Carbon Copy ability against him.

    2) The clones will, instead of decending towards the earth, will attempt to slam into Examon directly. In which case, they’d miss as Examon will be going down towards the Earth at high speeds. In this scenario, they would slam into each other ( as they’d be heading toward the wrong location ) and be converted back into liquid. By now, either two things. The goo would be unable to reform in the vacuum of space. Or the goo will reform. As with the first scenario, Aporro will now have to deal with about 100 Examons coming down towards him. Except, Examon now has more time to get out of the harms way and the clones are multiplying a ridiculously faster rate.

    However, in my mind, any of the Knights have the ability to kill Aporro as long as they’re careful and keep him on his feet. Examon just happens to be the most effective once.

    _____________________

    Zommari. Ok, this guy would be pretty damn overpowered in this scenario, if it were not for two things.

    1) He starts the battle in his non-released stated. It takes a few seconds for him to release his Zanpakto, leaing him wide open. In his non-released state, any of the Knights could take him easily.

    2) He cannot take control of inanimate objects and it appears to be able to be stopped by barriers.

    Really, the best way this could possibly go for the Knights is that they manage to kill him before he uses Resureccion ( which is definately a possibility ). If he does manage to do the release, the Knights as a whole could seriously be threatened. Before they realise what he could do, they’d lose something. Whether a Knight loses an arm, or the Knights lose a member is up to debate, but it could be bad. However, once they figure out what he can do, his powers can be countered.

    As I said earlier, his powers can be blocked by barriers. UlforceVeedramon is not the only Knight who can create barriers. Craniamon can aswell.

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Ll7KBwFRRE&feature=related ( See 6:28 – 6:45 )

    But whats also interesting is that Zommari cannot take control of inanimate objects. This means that Craniamon and Gallantmon should be able to block this effect with thier shields. Zommari has shown the ability to control other people’s limbs (Byakuya), people who are out cold (Rukia), and even Byakuya’s Bankai to a degree.

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=TgZG_5RBwMQ&feature=related ( At 1:40 we see he attempts to control the Bankai. At 1:54 we see that he was actually able to stop some of the petals, albeit not all of them. )

    However, Zommari is not able to control inanimate objects such as rocks, boulders, shields etc. How do I know this? Everything he’s controlled up to this point is under the direct control of his victims mind. ( Ex. Byakuya can control his arms and his Bankai directly, Rukia can control her body. )

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=DgZlo8wdpAE&feature=related ( 2:03 – 2:15 )

    Zommari explains that he could no longer control Byakya’s leg after he cut the nerves. This means Zommari’s ability can be blocked by the Knight’s shields.

    Craniamon would be the best to fight Zommari. He has the strength to take Zommari out before he uses Resureccion. Once he tries to activate it, he leaves himself wide -open to the a direct hit form the Duo-Solar Spear. With his shield and barrier, he could block Zommari’s Amor.

  50. AkumaTh August 17, 2009 at 10:29 pm -      #50

    Aporro Vs Examon: Interesting battle strategies. Though one thing is that the Royal Knights do not have prep time either. With this way of attacking, you expect them to see it coming. Like Renji and Ishida, his first instinct would be to attack. Being overpowered, anything he’ll do will either be blocked completely or hit him right back.

    Zommari Vs Craniamon: One thing you have to remember is that Barrier blocks against all the Ways of Destruction up to 89. If it 90 or above, it can go through it. I believe the Holy Shield from UlforceVeeedramon is equivalent to that, but Craniamon I’m not completely sure if it’s possible for the same results.

    And since lack of prep time is something you used against them, the lack of prep time would be devastating to the Royal Knights. They faced many powerful Digimon, but when it comes to Humans, the closest threat to them was Marcus and his father. The Espada’s initial form looks human, so they may be surprised of the strength and speed of them.

    Another thing is the Law of Anime you’re missing, “If there is a transformation sequence, it can’t be interrupted.” Byakuya, even as injured, still moved fast enough to catch up to Zommari. If it wasn’t anime, he would have seen the stance as “chop head here”.

    Ignoring the Digimon Movie where the Virus attacked Patamon before he had a chance, remember movies are an acception.

    And if we ignore that, the idea of Humans “Digivolving” would be bizarre to them. This is of course if you ignore that two of them were in Frontier. Savers never saw the Royal Knights and the Digivolving Humans together.

    The Digimon may have a chance, but the Espada has a better chance for being more ruthless and having subtlety with their attacks. Before the Royal Knights would know, they would have fallen right into their traps.

  51. OmegaGreymon August 18, 2009 at 1:28 am -      #51

    Now, this all being said, I’ve noticed one important factor. Digimon is NOT based off the manga/anime entirely. As said in many cases, the games as WELL as the official websites are worth just as much. The Digimon Channel, in Korean, shows many profiles of digimon we have not seen in any form of media, such as KitaKetsuomon(Gabumon’s Friendship Armor Form). Just bringing this out, because some of my examples that I used in the Pokemon vs. Digimon battle. Also, I sense a savers fanatic somewhere here. I agree with what Enigma said that the “newest form” does not apply here. And in all truth, Digital Monster X-Evolution would have newer forms of the knights, if it did count, thus negating this entire argument.

    I’m bringing in the Alpha Inforce, as I am too lazy to find a cunning way to do something and I’m just going to bring in Alphamon’s epicness in here.

    The Alpha Inforce gives him the ability to go back in time, see into the future, and redo attacks he didn’t know before. Though he can only go back in time up to a certain limit, which has not been disclosed in either the Digimon Channel profile or some sort of media, it’s much longer then a couple of minutes, more like half an hour or an hour. This pretty much makes him invincible. Not to mention the fact he can see much farther into the future than Omegamon. Alphamon would know these ‘traps’ before they could even get more than halfway executed.

    All this being said, it should also be mentioned All-Delete does NOT delete an entire world. Rather, it’s just an extremely powerful attack in synthesized form, and in data form it deletes just as quick as God Matrix. And though I have yet to read V-Tamer, which I should, I will bring up a digimon that counts as a royal knight as he is a subvariation of UlforceVeedramon. UlforceVeedramon Super Ultimate. Now right now I’m too tired to show all his abilities, but he is a super ultimate, which have a power level almost able to rival that of ZeedMillenniumon(currently the strongest digimon on record).

  52. DaWolf August 18, 2009 at 12:45 pm -      #52

    Leopardmon- Leopard mode images1.wikia.nocookie.net/digimon/images/thumb/1/12/Duftmon_Leopard_Mode_b.jpg/250px-Duftmon_Leopard_Mode_b.jpg.

    Nuff said.

    lol not really but it is something to consider because it’s on the scale of going into a super mode so as you said AkumaTh, it cannot be interrupted. And I’m sure he’s consierably powerful in this mode

  53. AkumaTh August 18, 2009 at 1:29 pm -      #53

    @OmegaGreymon: There’s a problem with also using the games as a base for a series primarly anime/manga driven. Game mechanics can change things to make what is seemingly week attacks powerful and vice versa. Avalon’s Gate sounds like a one hit kill situation but in a game it wouldn’t be bale to do so.

    With Anime/Manga, we can have a sort of accurate representation of their abilities.

    Alpha Inforce, unlike Ulforce, can be debated as a “Digital World Only” ability. To read said outcome, he would have to read the code of not only his opponent but also the area around him to analyse any and all possible outcomes. In the real world, there is nothing like that for the Alpha Inforce to pick up. And the “time traveling” ability is most likely kin to “Undo” that many other programs do. So it’s not time traveling, more like a do over.

    And about UlforceVeedramon Super Ultimate, I do not believe the Royal Knight of the same name does not have the ability to go Super Ultimate because only Zeromaru, the Veedramon who did become that, had the help of Taichi Yagami and his Digimental (Digi Egg). In other words, without the Egg he couldn’t transform. That’s why Magnamon is among the Royal Knight, he found an Egg and used it on himself. And outside that, UlforceVeedramon did not find nor recieved one of them.

    Now I find myself wondering if these Inforces three of the Royal Knights happen to possess are a Royal Knights thing, or a Digimon Partners thing…

  54. AkumaTh August 18, 2009 at 1:57 pm -      #54

    @DaWolf: It seems it offers him more speed and removes some strengths. Because his attacks sound a lot weaker then his base mode.

    digimon.wikia.com/wiki/Leopardmon

  55. OmegaGreymon August 18, 2009 at 5:39 pm -      #55

    I, unfortunately, have to bring out here that none of the royal knights are partners. Also, it should be noted any digimon has the capability to go Super Ultimate. It is a normal digivolution form just as much as perfect, ultimate, child, adult, etc. Digitama uses are only to speed up the process. As much as I hate to inform you, Digimentals/Digitama CANNOT be used without a D-Terminal, thus making it impossible for the Royal Knight version of Magnamon to have obtained the egg and use it on himself. One thing people seem to not understand is digimon have completely unlimited lines. They can go into armor forms via normal digivolution if the requirements are met.

    Also, it should be noted that the Inforces are NOT digital world only capabilities. Rather, they are special powers added to the digimon’s data by the overview computer of the digital world that monitors server progress. (Yggdrasil) And also, Alphamon calculating every possible solution then picking the most likely would mean any digimon of relatively high intelligence could do so, yet only Alphamon holds this power. Same thing goes for the Omega Inforce.

    As for time traveling being an ‘undo’ feature, that doesn’t seem likely as the specific way the time traveling works. Rather, he simply effects himself, the battlefield stays the same, which would explain why he doesn’t go too far back or otherwise he wouldn’t be near the battlefield. This also creates a temporary ‘cloning’ effect where the previous Alphamon attacks until the time matches up for the current Alphamon, thus making them one copy. But this is somewhat speculation on the second part, so I’ll stop there. However, it’s still fully true that it only effects himself and not the entire battle field, thus meaning it isn’t an undo feature as that would undo the most recent actions completed.

  56. AkumaTh August 18, 2009 at 7:22 pm -      #56

    Thing is, as I have seen the Alphamon and UlforceVeedramon being brought into this is based on Digimon D-Cyber, who are refered to as “Holy Knights”. Can we really confirm the Holy Knights are one and the same with the Royal Knights?

    I mean, we don’t put Agumon from Season 1 and Agumon from Savers as the same person, right?

  57. DaWolf August 19, 2009 at 5:50 am -      #57

    They may not be the same person but they are the same species. Although each digimon is unique there are some qualities that remain constant which also includes type (holy knight, exalted knight, the works) Now to clear up this Inforce thing, have you ever seen Next starring Nicolas Cage? I’m pretty sure that is accurate to the effects of the Alpha/Omega Inforces. If this is the case then the Espada are just what the guards were to Nick when he was captured

  58. AkumaTh August 19, 2009 at 10:09 am -      #58

    @DaWolf: Just because you’re the same species (more like race because they’re all Digimon) doesn’t mean they have the same attributes. If it was those Inforces would have been shown in the other series. Like Omnimon in the Digimon movies. Heck, in the Digimon Wiki for the Royal Knights, they list the other versions as seperate beings.

    digimon.wikia.com/wiki/Royal_Knights

    Though they do put the Holy Knights and the Royal Knights together. I’m still on the fence on that unless I see the manga refer to them as Royal Knights.

    Ignoring the “only works in the Digital World” defense I usually do, if it does work like his then it has to be something he activates. And after seeing said future, it changes. So he may see an outcome where they attack one way, but after avoiding it he maybe hit with a second way of attacking.

  59. DaWolf August 19, 2009 at 12:05 pm -      #59

    Ok look at this page, digimon.wikia.com/wiki/Omnimon. Now look at this page, digimon.wikia.com/wiki/Royal_Knights (If it doesnt automatically take you to the part with omnimon just scroll down to it). Now tell me, is there ANY difference between the two that you saw? As for the magnamon and magnamon x being two seperate beings, well it is a wikia so people are going to f things up and it won’t be resolved until someone fixes it. But think about it, with magnamopn X in the picture that would make 12 known knights, if you add the two missing ones that makes 14 when there’s supposed to be only 13 of them which would be very contradictory and the creators simply wouldn’t do it.

    Thank you for aknowledging that their abilities do work outside the digital world. And as for them being hit with a second attack, dude did you not hear what i said? Maybe you need an example (www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgoH1uzbnss) just skip to like 6:37 and ignore the stupid commentary. That is what you can do with your “second attack, and SHOVE IT UP YOUR ARSE WHILE YOU’RE AT IT! Sorry, adrenaline rush, I was watching cops when i typed this

  60. EnigmaJ August 19, 2009 at 12:49 pm -      #60

    -“If it 90 or above, it can go through it. I believe the Holy Shield from UlforceVeeedramon is equivalent to that, but Craniamon I’m not completely sure if it’s possible for the same results.”

    The shield was granted to him by King Drasil, master computer and god of the digital world. Its defense is absolute due to his aid. I would think the barrier could stop it. Whether or not you accept the barrier could stop it, theres still the problem Zommari’s attack will be stopped short by the shield itself. As I’ve already stated, he can’t take control of objects/parts not already under the direct control of someone else’s mind/body.

    Thought there is one thing I want to bring up. Lets rewatch the scene.

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=TgZG_5RBwMQ&feature=related

    At 4:35, the the Severing Void blocked the Amor. Byakuya goes to explain that the kido blocks all Ways of Destruction up to 89. So obviously, Amor must work on a level equivalent to 89 or less. However, nobody made any implication as to the exact level of Amor.

    Of course you can argue, Amor must have been atleast a high level because Byakuya had to use such a powerful level barrier. But lets look at the list of Kido seen in the anime so far.

    bleach.wikia.com/wiki/Kid%C5%8D#Kid.C5.8D_Types

    Every Way of Destruction up to 89 seen in the anime so far has to do with firing some type of blast of energy at the foe. Some type of projectile, usually energy, is thrown at the foe. However, the only Way of Destruction above 89, Black Coffin, is the only one that doesn’t follow that rule. It, unlike the rest, is an omni-directional attack so it makes sense that Severing Void wouldn’t block it. I can make the argument that Severing Void could block any spell up to 89, not because of the strength of the spells above 90 but because of the way they worked.

    Now lets look at the other defensive spells Byakuya could have used. The only other Barrier spell I see is the Arc Shield that Kira used. I can also make the argument that Byakuya didn’t need to use such a powerful spell to block Amor in the first, its just that his choices of Kido that generates the barrier he needed was limited. Plus, to further this, at 4:53, Bakuya explains that he was able to stop Amor dead in its tracks by using Six Rods Prison of Light, only a level 61 Kido Spell.

    My point is, theres no evidence to suggest that Amor is high level Kido and and that it was atleast 89.

    -“With this way of attacking, you expect them to see it coming. Like Renji and Ishida, his first instinct would be to attack. Being overpowered, anything he’ll do will either be blocked completely or hit him right back.”

    Yes, thats what I said. Examon would first attempt to attack the clones. The thing is, the more Examon does this, the more dangerous it gets for Aporro. He’ll eventually realize the clone’s flaws just as Renji did. He uses Avalon’s Gate, the clones use Avalon’s Gate. He uses Pendragon’s Glory, the clones uses Pendragon’s Glory. He rises into the air to use Dragonic Impact, the clones follow him. Yes, its possible Examon could be exhausted by the time he figures this out, but by that time, there could be hundreds of other Examons. Or should I say hundreds of small meteors heading towards Aporro.

    In all seriousness, in my mind all he has to do is use Pendragon’s Glory. In this case he’d be able to attack Aporro with Impunity.

    -“Alpha Inforce, unlike Ulforce, can be debated as a “Digital World Only” ability. And the “time traveling” ability is most likely kin to “Undo” that many other programs do. So it’s not time traveling, more like a do over.”

    Really, the idea that certain digimon abilities should not work in the real world is flawed. If a digimon can reverse time, its reverseing time. If a pokemon rips through space, its ripping through space. If it can see into the future, it can see into the future. Let me show you what I mean.

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVBmbEC_BR4&feature=related
    First set of Digidestines are fighting Apocalymon. They are literally owning him until he decides to use Total Anniliation at 5:36. He specifically says at 5:26 that he is going to take “both” worlds with him. This means that had his attack succeded, not would the digital world have been “deleted”, you can say the real world would have been “deleted” as well.

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-ezejB-66Q&feature=related
    4:28 – 5:40 Wendigomon catches the train in some type of warp and ends up teleporting every single person in the train to another location.
    www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_r8raM6vmY&feature=related
    In the beginning, we see where Wendigomon had teleported the group to.
    5:45 – We see Wendigomon has reversed time on the digi-destineds so that they grew younger. He also put them back into normal space.
    www.youtube.com/watch?v=KuNzCq7JWeQ&feature=related
    5:33 – We see him reversing time in the real world again, this time as Cherubimon.

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=LT7KTlTqBdI&feature=related
    6:55 – Omnimon teleports two of the Digidestines from the real world into his dimension.
    www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3dZKIydZF0&feature=related
    8:30 – Omnimon uses Supreme Cannon ( not sure if it is, but thats not the point ) to blast himself into the Real World, from the Internet.

    And my finaly example is from Data Squad. The whole reason King Drasil sent the Royal Knights into real world was to destroy it. And guess what? They were doing just that. Everyone of those Knights were having a pretty easy time “deleting” the real world.

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPyqUQlLNGI&feature=related
    Gallantmon destroys a small section of the city, leaving nothing ( emphasis on the nothing ) behind
    www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcLpKZA0Bws
    At 2:25, we see Leopardmon using Extinction Wave on the city, destroying a few buildings and literally erasing it from existence. At 3:15, the group mentions that the city is “dissapearing”

    Also, don’t think that this “spacial” warping is a Saver’s only ability.

    tinypic.com/usermedia.php?uo=z64vCmVRLZI303uYnI%2BmGw%3D%3D
    When the Tamer’s Dynasmon uses “Breath of Wyvern”, it is powerful enough to destroy the area and launch the Tamers to the moon. It is also mentioned later by some digimon that the attack caused some kind of Spacial Warp.
    tinypic.com/usermedia.php?uo=lt3hJv%2FbcSo64XrHi5SrJQ%3D%3D
    We see the same thing in Savers in the Real World I might add. The attack does massive area damage ( more so than we’ve ever seen in Bleach really ) and after that, deletes the buildings themselves.

    So really, the idea that digimon abilities only work when their world is composed of data is wrong. If Alphamon can see into the future, he can see into the future.

    -“Now I find myself wondering if these Inforces three of the Royal Knights happen to possess are a Royal Knights thing, or a Digimon Partners thing…”

    No

    Ultra Inforce – The Ultra Inforce is a holy version of the Overwrite sequence. All digimon have this, but it varies between species. As I’ve mentioned before, digimon with slow overwrites live longer but are less powerful. Digimon with more violent overwrites, generally have more stamina and more powerfula attacks, but have a lower life span. The Inforce has nothing to do with having a partner. The only other time we do see UlforceVeedramon, in Savers, we never saw any evidence that he didn’t have the Ulforce either.

    Alpha Inforce – The only time we’ve seen Alphamon so far is in X-Evolution, D-Cyber, and Chronicles. His only other appearance is in the card game. The only media he has a partner in would be D-Cyber, and he doesn’t even use the Alpha Inforce there. If I’m not mistaken, we get this info about him from the TCG and Chronocles. I’ve never read Chronicles so I can’t say.

    Omega Inforce – The only time Omnimon X appears is in D-Cyber and in Chronicles. In neither cases does he have a partner. He doesn’t use the Omni-Inforce in D-Cyber, but he does in Chronicles.

    The Inforces are not partner related. Its species related.

    -“Thing is, as I have seen the Alphamon and UlforceVeedramon being brought into this is based on Digimon D-Cyber, who are refered to as “Holy Knights”.”

    Its two different names for them. They are the same. Regardless of the source, all of the Knights are of the “Holy Knight” type in Japanese. So its no wonder they are sometimes referred to as the Holy Knights.

    The mangas/animes were originally made in Japan. Really, what your trying to do is take different references to the same team and disassociate them, because of the choices the dubbers/translators decided to take. In all sources, they are described at one of the thirteen digimon chosen to protect the digital world and spread its God’s ( Whether that be King Drasil or Lucemon ) justice.

    Not to mention, your wrong about the Inforces only being in D-Cyber. We see the UltraInforce in V-Tamer and we see the OmniInforce in Chronicles. In V-Tamer, they never even say the word “Knight”, referring them only as Holy Warriors.

    “I mean, we don’t put Agumon from Season 1 and Agumon from Savers as the same person, right?”

    No we wouldn’t because they are a different species, just with the same name. The one is Savers is larger than a common Agumon and wears the straps.

    Are all the Knights seen so far the same person? Nope. But are they the same species, with the same capabilities and attacks? Yes.

    “Just because you’re the same species (more like race because they’re all Digimon) doesn’t mean they have the same attributes.”

    Yes… yes it does. Do you know why Agumon can use Pepper Breath? Why, because he’s an Agumon of course.

    “If it was those Inforces would have been shown in the other series. Like Omnimon in the Digimon movies.”

    I’ve already mentioned that Omnimon does not have the Omega Inforce. Omnimon X does.

    “Heck, in the Digimon Wiki for the Royal Knights, they list the other versions as seperate beings.”

    Seperate persons? Yes? Different species with different capabilities? No.

    “Though they do put the Holy Knights and the Royal Knights together. I’m still on the fence on that unless I see the manga refer to them as Royal Knights.”

    So you sincerely beleive that the 13 Holy Knights are a different from the 13 Royal Knights?

    To elaborate on the point I just made and what I covered at the beginning of this whole debate-

    We’re using composite characters. Everytime we see the Royal Knights, it is a parralel world and they are different characters. The Royal Knights in D-Cyber do not share the same history with the ones from X-Evolution. The UlforceVeedramon seen in Data Squad is a different person from the one seen in V-Tamer. The Gallantmon in Tamers is different from the one in D-Cyber. Its obvious, theres no debating that.

    Your taking the obvious- the fact that they have different personas in different sources, and splitting them along a line ( Royal vs Holy ). They are referred to as Royal Knights in Tamers, Frontier, X-Evolution and Savers ( Funny how Toei Animation happened to translate all of these right? ) . They are referred to as Holy Knights in D-Cyber and Chronicles. They aren’t even referred to as Knights in V-Tamer. And yet the differences in character are just as obvious between X-Evolution and Savers, as they are between Frontier and D-Cyber.

    So it comes down to this

    1) None of these Royal Knights, or “Holy Knights” if you wish, are current version. Its as if your applying we should ignore feats where they refer to them as the 13 Holy Knights instead of the 13 Royal Knights because they are different teams.
    2) The Fight Scenario does not make any reference into which version of Knights to use.
    3) If a Digimon shows the ability to do something in a canon source, its fair game. If it was Peidmon vs Espada, we would use feats from everywhere Piedmon showed up. “Peidmon” refers to the species, not any specific character from any specific source. Its like saying we can’t use any feats from Next that he didn’t show in Digimon Adventure. Its still a Peidmon.

  61. DaWolf August 19, 2009 at 3:02 pm -      #61

    Boo-yah! I hit the jack-pot in my studies. AkumaTh you said All-Delete didn’t destroy Yggdrasil, it just reset him and the digital world, but look under omnimon’s profile in the X evolution part and it says he did destroy Yggdrasil and the digital world was reset by this. So reseting isn’t what All-Delete does it OBLITERATES and I finally have proof of this

  62. AkumaTh August 19, 2009 at 4:21 pm -      #62

    @DaWolf: Well, Omnimon from the movie cared for his trainers and was willing to protect them. The other Omnimon from the anime attacks even his former allies until Alphamon knocked some sense into him. Just because they have the same appearance doesn’t mean they have the same personality, traits, and such.

    I’m simply ignoring that defense to try to counter it. That example, every second he moved he continues to use his ability to his advantage. Too boot, Zommari’s move is pretty much naked until you get hit by it. If he were to use that ability, he wouldn’t notice Zommari’s attack, only noticing that his eye moved and nothing happened.

    @EnigmaJ: I was considering the barrier itself, since he used the shield more then the barrier to protect himself. As for that, the question I’m asking is that barrier strong enough to break through it? But your agument is sound and makes a lot of sense.

    As for the hundreds of meteors heading towards him, he “can disperse the clones at will” meaning if they were to be used against him, he can destroy them, possibly create even more clones but that speculation.

    First example (Apocalymon): His attack was an attack. Pretty much a big bomb. I could have seen him do so because it was a huge explosion able to wipe out worlds. It didn’t specifically target Data.

    Second example (Wendigomon/Cherubimon): Did you noticed the entire place had weird colors? This could be kin to Tamers where when they enter the real world, they have digital barriers which allowed them to exist in the real world. The weird colors represent that since nothing in our world can match those colors.

    Third Example (Omnimon): The first one had him still in the digital world, and too boot, this is similar to how the Digi Destined of the first season got into the Digital world in the first place. As for the second part, the internet is still digital so it could be treated like the digital world. Besides, it is data being made into an attack.

    Fourth Exaple (Royal Knights): Though by the time that is happening, the Digital world and the Human world was crashing into each other, meaning they were about to become one and wipe each other out. They were so close together that BanchoLeomon had to hold them apart to ensure they don’t hit each other. In sense, the Real world was becoming the Digital world, allowing them the ability to do so.

    Ultra Inforce: “We never saw any evidence that he didn’t have the Ulforce either.” But it still stands we didn’t see it as well. Unless one of us can prove he had or didn’t had the Ultra Inforce it is a factor that can not be added because there isn’t enough evidence that the Royal Knight version of the same Digimon has it as well.

    Alpha Inforce: I doubt the card game has that ability for balancing issues. And as for Chronocles, according to Wiki, is only 4 volumes long so far so the story is still young.

    Omega Inforce: Point proven there about it not being partner related.

    Thanks for clearing the Holy/Royal Knights bit. I thought it was weird that they referred to them like that.

    The Agumon/Agumon was the only defense of them being different I have of them not being the same because of outer appearances. Another example would be Guilmon from Tamers to the games. In Tamers (thanks to Takato) he could fly. With the logic of putting species together you would expect every Guilmon to fly. (Can’t wait to see you counter this since your Digi-Knowledge is better then mine)

    And honestly, yes I would treat them as different people. Because that ability was controlled by Sigma, not Piedmon. In V-Tamers, they were treated like Pokemon, so they may have been given said powers like Gillmon’s ability to fly thanks to Takato. Then again, I haven’t read that and only assume it to be similar to Tamers. Please correct me if I’m wrong.

  63. DaWolf August 19, 2009 at 4:49 pm -      #63

    I’m not talking about personallity, I’m talking about the virtual power scale that each species of digimon has. You can surely agree that the knight’s omnimon and digi-destined’s omnimon had aboutthe same power level. As for abilities, didn’t both use the trancendent sword and supreme cannon? Your attempt to say the royal knight’s omnimon doesn’t have the abilities that EVERY other mnimon has is really flawed

  64. AkumaTh August 19, 2009 at 7:12 pm -      #64

    @DaWolf: Digimon can be stronger and weaker against another, even when compared to each other. A bad Greymon was beating the good Greymon in the first season and they had the same moves.

    Too boot, compared to that 3D movie, the first Omnimon looked weaker in comparison.

  65. DaWolf August 20, 2009 at 1:39 pm -      #65

    Well the 3-D omnimon was the knight’s omnimon so it can at least be said that if all omnimon aren’t the same strength the the knight’s omnimon is the strongest and that is impressive considering what all other omimons can do.

  66. EnigmaJ August 20, 2009 at 5:43 pm -      #66

    -“As for the hundreds of meteors heading towards him, he “can disperse the clones at will” meaning if they were to be used against him, he can destroy them”

    Meh, he can still sniper his ass from the stratosphere with Avalon’s Gate.

    A-“Digimon can be stronger and weaker against another, even when compared to each other. A bad Greymon was beating the good Greymon in the first season and they had the same moves.”

    1) Both those Greymon had different personalities. Why? Because they were different Greymon. Normaly, a human’s personality is described by thier surroundings and experiences as well as thier genetics. So ofcourse, since those Greymon had lived different lives, they would behave differently.
    2) Both those Greymon had different strength levels. Why? Because they were different Greymon. A digimon’s strength level is defined how many other digimon they defeat in thier lifetime. Most digimon will fight other digimon endlessly so that they can go to the next level. So of course, theres a possibility of one Greymon being stronger.
    3) Could either one of those Greymon use an attack the other Greymon didn’t have? Is it possibile that one of those had a move the other Greymon hadn’t learned yet? Yes. Of course. When digimon evolve, they apparently seem to have a good idea of what thier capabilities are. But how they use those attacks is up to them and thus they learn to be a better at what they do.

    4) But could either one of those Greymon use an attack or an ability the other Greymon could never learn in his lifetime, no matter what he did. No. Both are Greymon. Both have the same upper limitations. If in Season 10 of the anime (hypothetical), they show us a Greymon punching a whole in dimensions with Nova Blast, does that mean Tai’s Greymon from Season 1 could as well? Nope. But what that does mean is that Tai’s Greymon had the capability to do so, but either never tried it or could not learn it under the circumstances. And do you know what else that would mean? Greymons could punch through dimensions with Nova Blast. It would be cannon, despite what anybody would have to say about it.

    B-“Another example would be Guilmon from Tamers to the games. In Tamers (thanks to Takato) he could fly. With the logic of putting species together you would expect every Guilmon to fly.”

    Now your mixing up naturally occuring abilities in Digimon with powerups they obtain from thier Tamers.

    Guilmon could only fly after Takato digi-modified him to do so. This logic entails abilities naturally obtained by the digimon, not those obtained from the actions of thier partners.

    I really don’t see why you brought this up. So no, other Guilmon shouldn’t be able to fly.

    Alright, so let’s compare previous points A and B for the Knight’s sake.

    -Your trying to argue that the Knight’s shouldn’t be able to use abilities that we don’t see multiple times across multiple sources.

    However, I’ve already mentioned that if one digimon species could do something, every other digimon of the same species should be able to do the same thing. We see Omnimon is able to teleport beings across dimensions in a digimon movie, but we never see this X-Evolution. Omnimon is able to blast his way through dimensions with Supreme Cannon in “Return of Diaboramon”, but we don’t see this in Chronicles. Why? Let’s apply my last four points.

    1) Do all of these Omnimon’s have different personalities? These are all different timelines of the digital world, so it makes sense that they would have led different lives and hence, have different personalities. Usually its the Omnimons who have had limited contact with humans who are the most “grouchy”.
    2) Do all of these Omnimon have different strength levels? You mention the one in X-Evolution seemed stronger. Yes. The Omnimon in X-Evolution was definately more experienced than Tai and Matt’s Omnimon since he had probably been jogressed ( fused =P ) for alot longer than thiers. Hell, the Omnimon in D-Cyber had been around for atleast 10,000 years. So are all Omnimons equal in srength to the next? No.
    3) Could one of these Omnimon used an attack another Omnimon didn’t have. Of course. The Omnimon in “Return of Diaboramon” busted his way out of the Internet ( another dimension ) only by using Supreme Cannon. The Omnimon in “The Battle of Adventures” teleported two of the digidestines into and out of the digital world using his own power. Could Omnimon in other series do that aswell? Not necessarily. They either may have had the capabilities, but didn’t do it based on the situation. Or they didn’t have it at all. In which case, that would have to do with thier training. The Omnimon in “Return of Diaboramon” only blasted his way out of the internet because they were trapped and had to find a way to escape. The Omnimon in “Battle of Adventures” may have picked up on the ability to summon people from other dimensions sometime during his life.

    4) But could either of those Omnimon use an attack or an ability the other Omnimon couldn’t use? No. Why? Because they’re Omnimon. Going from Point 3, did the Omnimon have abilities that other Omnimons didn’t use? Yes. But the abilities previously mentioned were used, not because of some outside influence. The Omnimon in “Return of Diaboramon” did not break his way from the Internet after Tai and Matt used thier digivices to amp up his power x20. The Omnimon in “The Battle of Adventures” did not learn to teleport people from other dimensions after he was enchanted by a magic wand. They did, simply because they could. They did it, because they were Omnimon. If given the right situation and know how, the Omnimon in X-Evolution and D-Cyber should be able to do so aswell. Do they already know how to do it? No. But can they learn it? Yes. Because we’ve seen other Omnimon do it.

    -Your trying to argue that some of the Knight’s abilities are partner only abilities.

    However, that is wrong. Digimon don’t learn random new attacks they shouldn’t learn because they have a partner. A partner is there to lead thier digimon during battle and to channel his emotion to all the digimon to digivolve. In Tamers, we see partners are able to modify the physical form of the digimon and thier abilities using digi-modification. We don’t see this anywhere else.

    I agree with your point about Super Ultimate UlforceVeedramon Super Mode ( unless Omega Greymon brings up something I haven’t thought of ). To go to that form, the Zero required aid from two outside sources: Taichi and the Digimental, neither of which are standard equipment. Unfortunately, this is the only partner related ability I’ve come across. Although you insist on suggesting certain Inforce abilties are partner related.

    AlphaInforce –
    “I doubt the card game has that ability for balancing issues.”

    Many digimon cards two text boxes. One pertain to the card game, giving the special ability of the card and what happens when you use it ( draw two cards etc. ). And another text box that doesn’t have anything to do with the game, but says something to describe the digimon. And yes, digimon cards are canon when pertaining to achievable forms and descriptions of the digimon themselves.

    “And as for Chronocles, according to Wiki, is only 4 volumes long so far so the story is still young”

    Erm no. Mangas done. Wasn’t really a manga, more of a short story given out with these toys. Old news.

    “But it still stands we didn’t see it as well.”

    I’ve already explained that the UltraInforce is a holy version of the overwrite. The type of overwrite a digimon have is species related. So it stands to say, the UltraInforce is species related. To further this, Zero obtained it as soon as he evolved into UlforceVeedramon. Taichi did not do anything in the manga to suggest he was the cause for Zero obtaining it.

    More importantly, its in his name. UlforceVeedramon = Ultimate/Ultra Force V-Dramon. I really don’t see how you can argue not all UlforceVeedramons have the UlForce when

    1) Its in the name
    2) We only ever saw UlforceVeedramon in three sources.
    a- In the manga where he irrefutably had it
    b- In the TCG, where it states this about him;”Its strong heart believes in the Future! Miraculous Ulforce!!”
    c- In the anime where he never showed any evidence of it, but nothing suggests he didn’t have it. We never even saw him fight or saw him got injured.

    Your trying to say that I don’t have proof he has the Ulforce when 2/3 he irrefutably has it and 1/3 he just doesn’t show it?

    I haven’t forgotten about your argument about the “digi-world” only abilities. I just have to get this out of the way first.

  67. EnigmaJ August 20, 2009 at 9:30 pm -      #67

    “Greymons could punch through dimensions with Nova Blast. It would be cannon, despite what anybody would have to say about it.”

    Lol, I was re-reading my post and I found this. This might have have confused you a bit. I meant to say-

    “IF Greymons could punch through dimensions…”

  68. AkumaTh August 21, 2009 at 12:09 am -      #68

    @EnigmaJ: You must have missed it when I said you proven your point about them not being partner related.

    But the thing I began to notice after seeing that new 3D Digimon movie is that compositions for Digimon just doesn’t work. This isn’t different timelines, these are parallel worlds. Each Digimon series has it own set of rules that they follow. Adventures has them being recycled and gain strength through battle. Tamers have them absorb data to do that. Frontiers have them search for Beast Spirits to become stronger as well. Savers have them feeding off human emoition to do so. That 3D Movie even have them able to survive kill shots that would normally kill a digimon and gain strength through their own emotions or from each other.

    We combine Link because the timeline (while confusing) is still the same. Everytime Ganon returns, a Link and a Zelda is reincarnated to complete the Triforce. The first Link and the most recent Link may have minor differences, they’re still essentially the same guy.

    When a guy like Sonic is on this site, no one brings up his escapades in AoStH, SatAM, Archie, Underground, or every other thing he’s been in. They are canon, just not the same canon as the Sonic being discussed (the games). Despite being the same guy, they each have major differences that seperate them from each other.

    In short: they maybe the same species, but they are not the same Digimon.

  69. DaWolf August 21, 2009 at 4:09 am -      #69

    @ AkumaTh: I’m sure it’s safe to say that each royal knight remains the same. If you think about it, all of those diffs you’ve noticed usually don’t apply to the knights because they weren’t featured in that season. In fac the only one of those I’d conside valid for the knights is the 3-D one and not because it makes them strong, it’s because they were featured so prominently in that one, plus, it’s the most recent.

  70. AkumaTh August 21, 2009 at 10:53 am -      #70

    @DaWolf: The X-Antibody Omnimon has in X-Evolution isn’t in anything else. If Craniamon recieved his Omni-Shield by King Drasil, but what about the card game? Why does King Yggdrasil look different in Savers and X-Evolution.

    They maybe the same species but how they work and how powerful they are depend on the series they’re in.

  71. EnigmaJ August 21, 2009 at 3:40 pm -      #71

    “The X-Antibody Omnimon has in X-Evolution isn’t in anything else. ”

    Actually it’s also seen in the manga Digimon Chronicles and Digimon D-Cyber.

    “If Craniamon recieved his Omni-Shield by King Drasil, but what about the card game?”

    The card game? Since when did the card games have a story-line? In any case, why is is so important to know this. Point is, if we see Craniamon has the Omni-Shield in the card game, it goes even more to show us its standard equipment.

    If we ever see Craniamon in another series and he doesn’t have the Omni-Shield. Then one can assume the weapon is not a part of his character.

    “Why does King Yggdrasil look different in Savers and X-Evolution. ”

    Because they are from parralel universes. Isn’t it obvious? But the concept behind the characters are still the same. In fact, the concept behind Yggdrasil is similar to ENIAC, which was explored in Season 1 and 2 and also in the games.

    images1.wikia.nocookie.net/digimon/images/1/1a/ENIAC.jpg

    Notice how similar ENIAC looks to Yggrasil from X-Evolution?

  72. AkumaTh August 21, 2009 at 4:25 pm -      #72

    Here’s an interesting side note: Did you know Yggdrasil is not just a Digimon exclusive? Yggdrasil is also a powerful computer in “Oh My Goddess!”. The name was based off LGX, an early Linux distribution developed by Yggdrasil Computing, Incorporated. Just found that out recently thanks to looking for Anime hackers.

    Now back to the topic:
    Omnimon has it in those mangas?

    Though I believe outside the game mentioning ENIAC was a dedicational nod to first general-purpose electronic computer with the same name. Kind of like saying “When the first Computer was made, the Digital World was made”. Because if it was as important as Yggdrasil was, then it would have been explored more in those seasons like it was in the game.

  73. EnigmaJ August 21, 2009 at 5:25 pm -      #73

    “This isn’t different timelines, these are parallel worlds.”

    Obviously

    ” Each Digimon series has it own set of rules that they follow.”

    The worlds have thier own set of rules ( and by that, I mostly mean history, landmasses etc. ). Not the digimon. Digimon are digimon.

    ” Adventures has them being recycled -”

    What? This is an aspect of all of the parallel worlds.

    Digimon are reverted into tiny bits of data after they die. One of two things can happen from this moment. Either-
    a) The data collects and forms a digi-egg which then travels to a designated location ( which depends on the series )
    b) The data is “loaded” or absorbed by another digimon. ( When this occurs, the victim digimon’s cycle of reincarnation stops completely and it is officially “dead” )

    “and gain strength through battle.”

    Digimon gain experience through the battles themselves. I’m assuming your talking about evolution. To evolve, digimon must have absorbed large amounts of data. This is why Renamon in Tamers always absorbed the data of the defeated ( she wanted to evolve ). This is the same with all series. Its just the most prominent in Season 3. If a digimon chooses not to “load” the data of the defeated, thats alright too. Digimon can also evolve by slowly absorbing data from thier environment.

    If your not talking about evolution, then what are you talking about? Digimon gain experience and become stronger by fighting in all series.

    “Tamers have them absorb data to do that”

    To gain strength? I think your still talking about evolution. I already explained. Digimon still become Digi-eggs in Tamers as long as thier data is not loaded and absorbing data is still an important part of evolving. However, like I said before, it’s just that we see digimon data being “loaded” alot more often in this season. But the same rules from Season 1 and 2 still apply. Hell, Guilmon and Terriermon rarely ever absorbed the fallen’s data (Because of thier Tamer’s “morals” ). Yet they still manage to digivolve. Why?

    “Savers have them feeding off human emoition to do so.”

    Wow.

    Emotions were ALWAYS an important part if evolving digimon. All of the rules I’ve mentioned so far also apply in savers. The rules I’ve mentioned before are not Season 1 and Season 2 only rules. They are rules that apply to digimon always.

    When a digimon allies themselves with a human, and that human becomes thier tamer, a new method of digivolution becomes available to them. Answering the question I left hanging before about Guilmon and Terriermon evolving, the digivices that the human has channels their emotional energy to allow digivolution. Hell, although Renamon ( the chosen digimon most known for “loading” data ) couldn’t evolve until Ruki let her know she cared about her.

    “Frontiers have them search for Beast Spirits to become stronger as well. ”

    Now your taking this from a totallly different concept. In Frontiers, unlike the other series werenn’t Tamers. They had to search for the spirits the AncientLegendary warriors left behind so they themselves could become digimon. They weren’t never really evolved, but were granted more powerful forms by a more powerful source. They eventually found their Beast Spirirts ( the ones the Ancient Legendary warriors left behind ). And Takya and Koji were given the power to Unity evolve by Orphanimon. The same doesn’t apply from the previous seasons because its not the same thing!

    But this doesn’t mean that the they don’t apply for other digimon. Other digimon in Frontier obviously didn’t have to “look for beast spirirts” to evolve.

    “That 3D Movie even have them able to survive kill shots that would normally kill a digimon-”

    Really?

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_iTWzCk0tA&feature=related
    7:25 – WarGreymon was knocked unconscious by that attack and his armor was destroyed.

    In the movie, Omnimon one shotted many of the weak pokemon he attacked. It was when it was megas vs megas when the battles took awhile a good amount of damage was dished out. Even, then I don’t remember any examples of durability that out shines anything we’ve seen before. Your going to have to give examples.

    And while were on this. What do you mean by “normal” digimon? I hope your not comparing a Mega vs Mega fight in X-Evolution to some Champion vs Rookie battle from the anime.

    “and gain strength through their own emotions or from each other.”

    Prove my point. Shows how emotions were always an important part of digivolution.

    ————————————————

    “When a guy like Sonic is on this site, no one brings up his escapades in AoStH, SatAM, Archie, Underground, or every other thing he’s been in. They are canon, just not the same canon as the Sonic being discussed (the games). Despite being the same guy, they each have major differences that seperate them from each other.”

    In this case, Sonic is similar to Marvel or DC. There are multiple canon continuities of the same series, but there is a “main one” that everyone looks to.. In Marvel, that is Universe 616. In DC, that is New Earth. In Sonic, that happens to be the games published by Sega. This way composition characters are not needed.

    And this is what seperates Digimon from Sonic. The Digimon universe are seperated among multiple universes scattered throughout the anime, manga and video games. There is no “main continuity” as with Marvel and DC. But there is something else.

    The other Sonic titles you mentioned are spin-offs, not published by Sega, of the original series. For digimon on the otherhand, Akiyoshi Hongo is “credited on all relevant media as the creator of the original concept and character designs for the anime and video game franchise.”

    He was also apart of the staff who produced every anime series, a few of the movies, and the V-Tamer’s manga. Bandai, who also own digimon, published the card game and a few of the video games. This is not similar at all to the Sonic titles you brought up, which were made by seperate entities. The Adventures of Sonic was created entirely by DiC entertainment. The only thing Sega would be credited for is the characters. Archie is published by, guess who, Archie Comics.

    “In short: they maybe the same species, but they are not the same Digimon.”

    As I’ve said before, digimon are digimon. Same basic idea. Parralel worlds do tend to have different mechanics and different inhabitants. But the species remain the same. Throughout all of the series, we see basic similarities between the same species. Agumon always seems to have pepper breath. WarGreymon has Nova Force and Dramon Killer. Every once an a while, another series show us a new ability ( and this is where composition steps in ) Omnimon and Gallantmon has shown similar capabilities throughtout all of thier appearances except fro a few extra powers they show in different areas. For you to assume that they can’t be composed just because the worlds the come from are parralel worlds is flawed. I’ve already shown you how static ideas such as digivolution and deletion are between the series.

    Now combine this with two different facts and you see what I mean.
    1) The person behind the original conecpt of digimon was in the staff who made all five seasons aswell as a few of the movies and mangas.
    2) Many digimon have subspecies. If any digimon requires a huge new trait that would make it different from the original species, it is made into a subspecies.

  74. AkumaTh August 21, 2009 at 7:54 pm -      #74

    @EnigmaJ: Akiyoshi Hongo is credited on all relevant media as the creator of the original concept and character designs for the anime and video game franchise, Digimon. However, nothing is known about Hongo as an individual. There is some possibilities that Akiyoshi Hongo could be a pseudonym for two persons: Aki Maita, the creator of the original Tamagotchi, and Takeichi Hongo, the principal officer of Tamagotchi for Bandai.
    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akiyoshi_Hongo

    Too boot, he’s credited for Original Concept and Character Design in them. Outside that, he only did the script for the Adventure Movie and TV. That means different writers and different directors made the series and he got credited for the idea of it and the designs of the Digimon. In short, he did nothing for the other series except invent the concept.

    These different canons are just like the different Sonic canons. Despite belonging to the same owners (Sega owns everything Sonic, even those TV series), their stories are vastly different from each other.

  75. DaWolf August 21, 2009 at 10:08 pm -      #75

    As long as the essential concept is the same then it doesn’t matter how different the stories, games, tv series, etc… are. Isn’t sonic still a speedy hedgehog in all his franchises? To compare, the Omega inforce is a part of and remains the same in all franchises.

  76. EnigmaJ August 21, 2009 at 11:17 pm -      #76

    “Too boot, he’s credited for Original Concept and Character Design in them. Outside that, he only did the script for the Adventure Movie and TV. That means different writers and different directors made the series and he got credited for the idea of it and the designs of the Digimon. In short, he did nothing for the other series except invent the concept.”

    Ehh, he was still part of the staff. And for all intents and purposes, he still owns Digimon.

    “These different canons are just like the different Sonic canons. ”

    No they are not. Sonic atleast has a main continuity. Digimon does not. In Digimon, all canon cources are relevant.

    “Despite belonging to the same owners (Sega owns everything Sonic, even those TV series)”

    They own the rights to them, but they didn’t make them. If they were to make thier own series that follow the same storyline of the games, then there would be no reason why it shouldn’t be used. Digimon however is owned by Bandai ( and Toei Animation ). Bandai released all of the video games and card games. They also produced all of the seasons from the digimon anime along with Toei Animation.

    “, their stories are vastly different from each other.”

    I fail to see any inconsistency so great, that compostion characters can’t be used. As I’ve stated before they are still digimon. Digimon are still digimon in all canon sources. Regardless of who directed or released the source, an Agumon from one is the same Agumon from another. As I mentioned in my last post, the basic ideas of digimon are still the same. The process of evolution, cycle of re-birth, and levels and forms of each individual digimon remain the same. Each series give us new digimon and maybe even new facts all together. But usually, there is no reason said facts can’t be applied to the previous data given unless it is intertwined that world’s history. Yes, the digital world has vastly different histories in different sources, but the inhabitants are still the digimon originally conceived by Akiyoshi Hongo.

    Really, I don’t even see why your arguing this when

    1) Bandai themselves create official character profiles on thier site. They TELL us Omnimon X has the Omega-Gain-Force. They TELL us Alphamon has the Alpha-Gain-Force. Considering they released/produced the card games, video games, and anime, they use sources from everywhere. This really isn’t something you can dispute. Its official.
    2) This is what mostly everyone accepts. I’ve seen people argue that the Digital world are parralel realities ( dur! o.O ) but I’ve never seen anyone in anyother Vs. match argue so fiercely that we can’t use composite characters. Whereever I go, whenever I see people debating with Omnimon, the Royal Knights, Susanoomon, WarGreymon, Lucemon and others, they pickout feats from everywhere. Even the DVR ( Japanese ) and DMA websites use feats from multiple universes. These aren’t official but they are accurate considering many fans refer to them daily and look out for errors. Hell, these same sites would never even consider looking to Dragonball GT ( non-cannon continuity ) for feats yet they casually pick our info from across the board.

    Problem is, your main argument is the difference in character. Clearly there would be a difference in character since its a different world. However, in digimon the info about the species itself is relevant across the board unless its non-cannon. I can see why someone would argue this if your not as ‘accustomed” to Digimon, but realize that different anime’s have thier own different rules about canon. For digimon, every card description, manga, and anime series are relevant for digimon profiles.

  77. AkumaTh August 21, 2009 at 11:30 pm -      #77

    The concept maybe the same, there are still things not included in the other series. Super Sonic being evil in Sonic the Comic (UK Sonic). The Medallions becoming Guitars in Underground. Power Rings giving power in SatAM and X. Siblings in Underground.

    While you may see them all being Sonic on the outside, there are many differences that keep one Sonic from another. The Inforces were only explored in a few of the series and aren’t even a factor in the others.

    Absorbing Data was only looked upon in Tamers. In Adventures they never said that and in Frontiers, they never showed it again. Too boot, Episode 8 of Frontiers had a In Training Digimon, with no outside battle experience or connection to emotion, Digivolve to Rookie level.

    Outside the fact they are all Digimon, there are no real connections from one canon to another. Power levels vary, elements exclusive to one but not the other, concepts only explored there and no where else.

    Digimon is like the Final Fantasy series, same concept but overal not possible to connect to one another (Outside sequels or based on Tactics).

  78. AkumaTh August 22, 2009 at 1:00 am -      #78

    EnigmaJ: He wasn’t part of the staff. He was credited only. It’s the same thing as crediting Yuji Naka in fanfictions.

    You know another series similar to Digimon? Final Fantasy. No main continuity yet they keep everything seperate. Somethings work similar, others do not. Look at the Moogles.

    Sega also produced the TV series and Comic books. They commissioned DiC to create Sonic Underground to help promote the Dreamcast and themselves promoted Sonic X in their remakes.

    The rebirth cycle was never explored or mentioned in Tamers. And it was redesigned to have the possibility of them not remembering their past in Savers. The Digimon themselves can transform into various other Digimon. Agumon can become Greymon, Centarumon, or Meramon. Heck, the guy who originally conceived them may not even exist.

    1) You mention these official character profiles on their site. The closest I’ve seen is this: www.digimon.channel.or.jp/
    And there are no profiles for Omegamon X.

    Mind giving us a link to these Offcial Profiles?

    2) Just because everyone excepts it doesn’t mean it’s true. People accepted the concept of the Earth being flat before one guy proved them wrong. And people tend to do so because outside the main Digimon, their abilities haven’t been fully explored. Omnimon only made like a few appearances and we only see him in action for real was in the 3D movie.

    The thing is relevants is not across the board. The problem is examples of them being the same or not are not very observant. In Frontiers, Togemon and the In-Training Digimon look much smaller then in Adventures. Savers, the Royal Knights look much bigger then in Frontiers. Heck, in Digimon World DS, Aruraumon only digivolves to Dorimon yet in Dawn/Dusk can do Woodmon or Weedmon, not Dorimon. And a Dorimon is in Dawn/Dusk.

  79. EnigmaJ August 22, 2009 at 12:28 pm -      #79

    “You know another series similar to Digimon? Final Fantasy. No main continuity yet they keep everything seperate. Somethings work similar, others do not. Look at the Moogles. ”

    I’m not a Final Fantasy expert, but apparently there IS a main series (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final_fantasy#Main_series), along with many side-games and spin-offs ( such as the Final Fantasy: The Spirirts Within ). The main series are still what everybody else debates with. Digimon doesn’t have one. There’s no comparison.

    “The rebirth cycle was never explored or mentioned in Tamers.”

    I don’t have the time right now, to find a better example. But I’ve already explained that the digimon do not come back if their data are loaded.

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=sK4S_-1ajig&feature=related

    6:50 – 7:25 shows that at the beginning of the series, the group obviously don’t understand the rebirth cycle. Terriormon’s tamer ( keep forgeting his name =P ) told him not to absorb Gorillamon’s data, showing that he understands that if he “loads” it, Gorillamon will disappear.

    Not to mention, the fact that Bandai have released games that include aspects from both Season 1 and 2, along with Season 3 shows that Bandai doesn’t seem to agree with you.

    1) Yep, thats the site. If you can actually understand Japanese, explore the site a bit. Here’s a link to their official dictionary.

    digimon.net/cat-digimon-dictionary/index.html

    Very useful if you understand Japanese. I don’t =P so I look for where other people have translated them.

    “Because he holds in battle the abilities of the ultimate power Alpha Inforce, which instantaneously regains past battles, Alphamon’s attacks are over in an instant, but in actuality the number of times an attack is sent out is unknown, and in theory, one can only see the final attack that brings down the enemy ”

    -Explanation of the Alpha Inforce from Bandai

    2)

    “In Frontiers, Togemon and the In-Training Digimon look much smaller then in Adventures. Savers, the Royal Knights look much bigger then in Frontiers.”

    The size of the digimon are irrelevant. Many different series have the digimon different sizes than previous ones. Hell, the Digimon Aventures movie showed an Agumon that was twice as large as the one from the its own anime.

    “Heck, in Digimon World DS, Aruraumon only digivolves to Dorimon yet in Dawn/Dusk can do Woodmon or Weedmon, not Dorimon. And a Dorimon is in Dawn/Dusk.”

    Game mechanics.

    You’ve yet to show me whats so icompatiable about the different digimon series.

  80. AkumaTh August 22, 2009 at 2:59 pm -      #80

    @EnigmaJ: I’m no Final Fantasy Expert either, but when they refer to the main games, they mean the ones with the Numbers. There are absolutly no connections with any of the Main Final Fantasy games outside minor similarities. See how different FF7 and FF8 are from each other with a simple youtube search.

    1) I used Babel fish to translate the pages. As I said before, there are no profile for Omegamon X. Too boot, there is no profile for Alphamon (Aruhuamon) as well.

    2) That is not game mechanics. Game mechanics would be how an attack would work or how a game is played. This is the Digivolving Stages you said they always keep together completely changed.

    And you also overlooked my Digivolving situation in Post 77 when I mentioned “Too boot, Episode 8 of Frontiers had a In Training Digimon, with no outside battle experience or connection to emotion, Digivolve to Rookie level. ” As he had no real reason to Digivolve and have no clue about the Legendary Warrior’s actions.

    While you say I haven’t show you, the same can be said that you haven’t shown me. Your reasons for it being connected to each other are just as weak (if not more so) as my examples of them being seperate.

    -The Digimon species does the same moves. The Final Fantasy Cast can learn the same magics.
    -The fact they released a game that has the same concepts of 1, 2, and 3 yet 4 and 5 completely abandons the absorbing, can be that the game is it’s own canon as well with the writers using elements of the first three seasons.
    -The fact you said the Official Profiles prove it yet the Official Profiles are missing a good number of them (one of which includes the Digimon-X) are not there.
    -Another thing about the official profiles is they mentioned “The year when it participated”. And if you look at the story translated, it talks about Crack Programs, which could possibly mean the official website has information on an entirely different canon. Read it for yourself here:

    66.196.80.202/babelfish/translate_url_content?.intl=us&lp=ja_en&trurl=http%3a%2f%2fdigimon.net%2fcat-digimon-world%2fpage-02.html

  81. DaWolf August 22, 2009 at 6:47 pm -      #81

    I think we’re getting a little off topic here. The OFFICIAL digimon wikia states that the inforces are an ability of the weilders so guess what, there an ability of the weilders. Unless you can come up with some proof that they were made up and are not actually an ability, AkumaTh, then the fact that no manga shows the ability clearly isn’t valid evidence because, to put it bluntly, THEY DON’T MAKE DIS **** UP!

  82. EnigmaJ August 22, 2009 at 7:01 pm -      #82

    Really, your theories in some ways make sense. Its not like I’m just shooting them down blindly, but there are reasons I can’t accept them.

    1) Your trying to compare the Digimon franchise to other anime series and video games ( such as Final Fantasy and Sega ). I have to admit, you did shoot down some of my previous arguments on copyright and who releases some specific media ( which would have ended things quickly ), but that doesn’t change the fact that there are different rules for different franchises. Your looking at other animes and comparing thier rules for Digimon, by saying since its THIS way for THIS we have to apply the same to Digimon. In Sonic and FF, its clear that theres a difference in character in different continuities. And its obvious that there’s a difference in character in Digimon among the same species in parralel worlds. I’ve already told you, thats to be expected since thier different realities. But that doesn’t change the fact that Bandai releases all of the material ( except for a few movies I think ). If the match said Dark Master’s Piedmon vs ???, then of course we wouldn’t use feats from the Alias. But if its just says Piedmon, for all intents and purposes, we have to take it as “a peidmon”. And, from looking at both sources, we get see what “a peidmon” can do. This is what works for Digimon. Thats how information is collected on each individual species.

    2) Mostly all the proof you’ve been bringing to this side-tracked argument are all the little inconsistencies you’ve found between the series. Most of these inconsistencies I’ve either shot down or has nothing to do with the digimon themselves. Its obvious that they lie in parralel worlds, but that has nothing to do with the species. The species are the same across all sources. You’ve denied this but the best you have done to substantiate it is by telling me that the worlds are “vastly differeny” in post 74. Which I again have to tell you, its expected as they were directed by different people and they are parralel worlds. The digimon are still digimon. However, Bandai still releases the material and like I’ve said before, they explain most of this crap for us. They explained the Omega and Alpha gain forces quite well in Digimon Chronicles actually and its posted on thier profiles, not only on thier site but in other fan-made profile sites. You continued by saying-

    “Outside the fact they are all Digimon, there are no real connections from one canon to another.”

    No real connection? Digimon? Digital World? Human World? The fact that digimon are deleted after they die. The fact that all digimon in all sources have the same levels ( Baby, In-Training, Rookie, Champion, Ultimate, Mega etc. ) In all sources there are main similarities that make them digimon. If they were to make a new Digmon season and make similar to pokemon in everyway, I’d understand what you are saying. This is infact what your saying. That the there’s no more comparison between the digimon in the different seasons than there are between digimon and pokemon.

    “Power levels vary-”

    I’ve said this many times now. It makes sense that power levels would vary since they ARE different individuals. Omnimon in X-Evolution was more powerful than the one in Adventures because he had much more experience. It still makes sense that the two Greymon that fought in Adventures had different power levels since they’ve probably haven’t been through the same amounts of fights. You’ve shot your own foot with this one really. The fact that there are digimon withint the same season with different power levels thros this out the window.

    “elements exclusive to one but not the other”

    Because its a different season. Of course exclusive elements would be brought up to fit the world’s history, geography, inhabitants and the main goal of the digi-destineds. As I’ve said before, there ARE inconsistencies; just not the kinds that you are implying. If its about the digimon, then it still applies to the species universally ( unless its based on something outside of natural abilities ). You’ve yet to show me why an Omnimon in Season 1 is different from an Omnimon in Season 3. All you’ve told me so far is that they maybe different sizes ( which I’ve shot down after I mentioned that we had an Agumon twice as large as Tai’s Agumon the the Digimon Movie, even though both are witihin the same Universe. ) and that thier world’s are different ( which I agree with you ). In fact, both Omnimon’s would know similar abilities( Supreme Cannon, Garuru Cannon, Transcendant Sword ) although ‘these are vastly different worlds.”

    “concepts only explored there and no where else. ”

    What are these concepts? These concepts apply only to the world itself. Are you talking about absorbtion of data in Season 3 again? Arkadimon absorbed many digimon’s data in V-tamers and Demon further absorbed his data afterwards. Not explored in other seasons much, but the fact that it appears ( especially in two different areas ) show us its possible. And, just because the re-birth wasn’t elaborated as much in Season 3, doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. Even if it did, I hardly think it would mean much to further your claims. Gulimon and Terriormon did evolve from digi-eggs after all.

    “The Inforces were only explored in a few of the series and aren’t even a factor in the others.’

    Bandai tells us they have them. Deal with it.

    “While you may see them all being Sonic on the outside, there are many differences that keep one Sonic from another.”

    Yes, because of the different timeline, we can’t assume so. You’ve yet to prove to me why Digimon are to Pokemon, as Digimon in Season 1 are to Season 3. In fact, I’ve just realized the a problem with your comparisons.

    In other series such as sonic, it makes sense that we wouldn’t take take data from different media. In Sonic, which have different timelines in different sources, it wouldn’t make sense to take a feat from what one Sonic did in another timeline to another timeline he didn’t do it in. Its like saying you defeated the Hulk with your massive strength in another dimension and taking that, and assuming your Class 100 in another universe. If its in the same timeline, but don’t count, then its straight up non-canon. This is the same reason we can’t take feats from the Dark Master and apply it to the Alias. But this reason your using doesn’t apply to the species as whole. Your arguing that although Bandai calls them Digimon in all sources, and the fact that similar species exist and new species are brought up all the time, an Agumon in Season 1 does not share any comparison to a Agumon in Season 3.

    “Too boot, Episode 8 of Frontiers had a In Training Digimon, with no outside battle experience or connection to emotion, Digivolve to Rookie level. ”

    We’ve already been through this. Digimon can evolve to higher levels by slowly absorbing data from thier environment. Its possible for lower level digimon to evolve this way because they don’t reuire as much information to retain thier form. The fact that it was an In-Training proves my point.

    “And it was redesigned to have the possibility of them not remembering their past in Savers.”

    The “possibility”? Oh, so its not definate. Give me a link to where it says Digimon always retain all of thier memories in a previous season and maybe you’d have a point. Even if you could, such a small inconsistency does nothing to prove anything.

    “The Digimon themselves can transform into various other Digimon. Agumon can become Greymon, Centarumon, or Meramon.”

    Its common knowledge that digimon have muliple possibly evolutions. These evolutions vary depending on the digimon’s situation and cirumstances. And many of these evolututions can only be obtained with special items, tamers etc. The fact that they add new digimon to this giant web proves nothing. It should actually be expected.

    “Just because everyone excepts it doesn’t mean it’s true. People accepted the concept of the Earth being flat before one guy proved them wrong.”

    Many people thought the Earth was flat because they lacked the scientific knowledge to think otherwise. In this case, people who debate digimon have access to the information. The inconsistencies you’ve brought up are nothing new.

    “Digimon is like the Final Fantasy series, same concept but overal not possible to connect to one another”

    My biggest problem. You keep saying this. Yet how simple does it get? Omnimon does this in Season 1, then this in Season 2, then this in the movie… so Omnimon could do all three of these. Not to mention, its not that black and white. 80% of all of the information on the digimon occurs throughout multiple sources meaning that there are similarities. Are you saying there’s no comparison between two Omnimon’s in any two sources?

    Your arguing two different things at the same time, both of which are flawed. That one, we shouldn’t connect them because the series don’t match. And two, we couldn’t connect them even if we wanted to because of all the inconsistencies.

    Not enough of the inconsistencies you’ve brought up even exist ( I’ve shot down most of them ) and none of these inconsistencies are great enough to prove your claims.

  83. EnigmaJ August 22, 2009 at 10:02 pm -      #83

    “. There are absolutly no connections with any of the Main Final Fantasy games outside minor similarities.”

    Hmm, your right. I found it interesting at first, because it did sound a bit like digimon. But then, I remembered that I already agreed with you. Dark Masters Piedmon is different from Alias Piedmon. But with digimon, its usually the species we’re debating though. And the species are universal.

    So its still different… unless of course you want to argue that Cloud and Sephiroth are a species now.

    “That is not game mechanics. Game mechanics would be how an attack would work or how a game is played. This is the Digivolving Stages you said they always keep together completely changed. ”

    When did I say this >.> I remember saying the levels remain the same, not the forms.

    And yes, it is Game Mechanics. In a Star Wars game, do you think they would allow you every single weapons from the whole franchise? Its the same thing. You can’t expect them to allow you every single evolution, especially if it isn’t relevant to the plot. But if they give you a new form, then it should be considered.

    As for the “Crack Programs”, it must have been described in the card game or some digimon game I haven’t heard of. But they do give information on their own sometimes, so it wouldn’t be a surprise if Bandai did make it up on thier own ( in which case, it would be canon =P )

    I’ll look into it more though. I’ll also look the Alphamon and Omnimon X you were saying wasn’t there. Though I’m know Bandai have made statements regarding the Inforces. I assumed they were on the profiles, but I have to find them again.
    ( Ugh, can’t beleive I’d make this mistake =P )

    “an entirely different canon”

    I find it quite funny that you are suggesting that the official Bandai website for Digimon is providing us info, not on Digimon, but on “Digimon.”

    In any case, I’ll keep this short for now. But I’ll leave you with two questions.

    1) Even if I can’t find information on Alphamon and Omnimon X, doesn’t the fact that there are actually Official Profiles tell you something? That maybe the digimon themselves are universal? Unless you want to suggest that its not Official or that it applies to only one of these “seperate canons” your talking about.

    2) For Final Fantasy, are composite characters used? Whats the “rule” there? I could have composites were used there. This wouldn’t exactly go to well for your case, would it?

    I’d like it if you address this post first. I was seriously pissed off when writing the post 82.

  84. AkumaTh August 22, 2009 at 11:53 pm -      #84

    @EnigmaJ: As you wish, I’ll address the first part first, but be warned some of the stuff you mentioned before I replied first. Now it has been edited to cut off certain parts.

    “unless of course you want to argue that Cloud and Sephiroth are a species now.” If I was anyone else, I would so make an emo joke here.

    Ah, I mistranslated “forms of each individual digimon remain the same.” But it still stands since it proves the creators can change what they want. What’s to say they don’t give Agumon a whole new set of attacks in the future?

    “But they do give information on their own sometimes, so it wouldn’t be a surprise if Bandai did make it up on thier own ( in which case, it would be canon =P )”
    And just like all the others, it’s own canon, like all the other forms of Digimon out there.

    1) Again, these Official profiles maybe exclusive to whatever storyline this “Crack Program” thing is. There is nothing mentioned of the previous seasons on that site and returns the original idea of the Guardians of the Digital World, the Digimon Sovereigns.

    2) No, they are not used from one main game to another. The species used have to be specified. As Moogles act differently in each series (and in some cases don’t exist outside dolls and fiction) and Chocobos are capable of more things in 7 then in others (Due to breeding).

    “You’ve yet to prove to me why Digimon are to Pokemon, as Digimon in Season 1 are to Season 3.”

    Pokemon: Originally released as a pair of interlinkable Game Boy role-playing video games.
    Digimon: being able to connect to fight other Digimon v-pets.
    Pokemon: train your Pokemon to defeat other Pokemon.
    Digimon: train your Digimon to defeat other Digimon.
    Pokemon: Has a card game.
    Digimon: Has a card game.

    Heck, I made a comic about it (it’s about how Digital Pokemon is): pokerandom.smackjeeves.com/comics/536367/im-going-pocket-al/

    I can have a feild day comparing how similar Pokemon is to Digimon.

    “Digimon can evolve to higher levels by slowly absorbing data from thier environment”~ One thing I noticed about it while looking it up. There’s no source about it. Where does it say that besides the two Wikipedia entries? Was it in the Manga? Did I miss an episode? The Card Game?

    “The “possibility”? Oh, so its not definate. Give me a link to where it says Digimon always retain all of thier memories in a previous season and maybe you’d have a point. Even if you could, such a small inconsistency does nothing to prove anything.”
    Season 1: Patamon becomes an egg. Then becomes a baby form. Then becomes the Rookie that remembers being a Patamon. Also Leomon and ogremon situation. While talking to Ogremon, he mentions that he’ll take a vacation and then fight Leomon again.
    Season 2: Wormmon becomes an egg at primary village. Remembers Ken even while in the egg. Other Digimon there (baby forms) remember Ken despite not being in the Digimon Emperor costume.
    Season 4: The Purified Legendary Warriors briefly returns and helps the other Legendary Warriors.
    Season 5: BanchoLeomon mentions that the Digimon returning may not remember their past. Plot device prevents it.
    I had links before but the internet shut down.

    The problem I have is that the reason I don’t except the idea of composition is because matches are sometimes not clarified just like here and not made with compositions. Sonic Vs Flash didn’t mention which Flash (so we used Wally). Sonic Vs Megaman didn’t specify which Megaman (so we used the one that was Pictured, X). Pikachu was in two matches on this site and one was made specific to be a Wild Pikachu (the other was against Thor so there was no chance of any Pikachu to win).

  85. DaWolf August 23, 2009 at 2:10 am -      #85

    @ AkumaTh: You’re right, there are several different versions of almost all of the characters featured on this site and maybe when admin reads this he’ll make some changes and this can be reconsiled (lol big word). But as for this match, its not like we’re talking about digimon in general, it would be a lot more complicated if it were like that. We are talking about a specific group of digimon whose only inconsistancy is its leadership. As for powers and abilities, I believe what we’ve gathered from the digimon wiki and all other franchises featuring the knights can be formed into one solid vision of them which, even though I think we got off this a while ago, includes the Inforces

  86. AkumaTh August 23, 2009 at 1:03 pm -      #86

    “As for powers and abilities, I believe what we’ve gathered from the digimon wiki and all other franchises featuring the knights can be formed into one solid vision of them which, even though I think we got off this a while ago, includes the Inforces”

    No it doesn’t. The Royal Knights appear in the movie Digital Monster X-Evolution, the anime Digimon Frontier and Digimon Data Squad, and the manhua D-Cyber.

    Alphamon in his few appearances didn’t show off this ability as a Royal Knight. Neither did UlforceVeedramon or Omnimon X did in their appearances. Infact, the only inforce being shown as a different UlforceVeedramon who was not identified as a Royal Knight of any name. His name may have said it, but it could be simply because the company didn’t want to change the name. People still refuse to call Tailmon Gatomon because of that.

  87. EnigmaJ August 23, 2009 at 1:13 pm -      #87

    “And just like all the others, it’s own canon, like all the other forms of Digimon out there.”

    Wow, your already convinced aren’t you? You find some information you haven’t found anywhere else and although you barely understand what they talking about, you still immediately tag it as its own canon. Already your saying, Bandai’s word has no more relevance than anything else we’ve seen thusfar.

    “1) Again, these Official profiles maybe exclusive to whatever storyline this “Crack Program” thing is. There is nothing mentioned of the previous seasons on that site and returns the original idea of the Guardians of the Digital World, the Digimon Sovereigns.”

    This is what I am talking about. Every other source you see, you suggest it it is a different “canon”. That storyline you saw was about Digimon Twin, apparently some new V-pet. See here-

    wikimon.net/Digimon_Twin

    In any case, it makes sense that they’d have info on this all over the site. Bandai doesn specialize in the toys. It makes sense that you’d see so much info on the toys, since that is what Bandai specializes in. But the profiles are still there.This explains it quite well-

    wikimon.net/Digimon_Dictionary

    In any case, you’ve mentioned it yourself. The Dictionary mentions the first time the Digimon makes an appearance in any source. For Omegamon, it says 2000, the year the Digimon movie came out.. For Agumon, it says 2006, the year Data Squad came out ( You may find that wierd, but the Agumon in Data Squad was a subspecies ). Not to mention the fact that there are profiles for digimon not even seen in these toys and the fact that they’re adding new profiles every week suggests they want to get profiles for every single species. This is official, universal profiling.

    “2) No, they are not used from one main game to another. The species used have to be specified. As Moogles act differently in each series (and in some cases don’t exist outside dolls and fiction) and Chocobos are capable of more things in 7 then in others (Due to breeding).”

    I was about to ask you why I’ve never seen people specify the games before. But then I did a little research and I realized just HOW different each game was from the previoius. Characters rarely ever cross games in Final Fantasy. Cloud and Sephiroth, for example, only appeared in Final Fantasy 7. You mentioned that the source had to be stated, but why is that? When composite characters aren’t even possible. I figured each Fantasy game was a different timeline, but WOW. There’s no comparison to Digimon at all here. None. The Moogles don’t even compare

    You act as if the Digimon themselves aren’t important, each different director randomly editting the species to thier leisure. The only difference your going to find is maybe one or two added moves and maybe a size difference. The Digimon species are the main focus of every Digimon sourc so why do you think they make so many subspecies of Digimon, when the main species doesn’t even appear in the source? Because a such a trait had to be added to the species, that would make it totally different.

    You’ve done well mentioning the small difference between the universes. But thats not the point. Universes are alittle different, but the digimon are universal. Before I mentioned the differences between Pokemon and Digimon. But you obviously didn’t understand what I was trying to say. Let me rephrase it. Your trying to say that Omnimon in X-Evolution is as different from Omnimon in Adventures and Agumon is as different from Pikachu.

    “But it still stands since it proves the creators can change what they want.-”

    “Change” whatever they want? More like “add” whatever they want to the Digimon Universe.

    “What’s to say they don’t give Agumon a whole new set of attacks in the future?”

    They could do that. I see now that your assuming that when a series ends, all of the information seen should remain static. Are you saying Bandai can’t give us new information about the digimon?

    In which case, let me ask you this. Other than the flood of information were getting from the cards, games, and anime about the individual species. How do you think Bandai should give us new information on previous digimon?

    “One thing I noticed about it while looking it up. There’s no source about it. Where does it say that besides the two Wikipedia entries? Was it in the Manga? Did I miss an episode? The Card Game?”

    Never seen it anywhere either. But it makes sense. How would a baby or an in-training digimon evolve otherwise? Why do digimon usually revert to thier rookie form after they are weakened?

    You gave me examples where digimon retained thier memory. I already knew that. But I’m asking you for a source, where someone who knows what he’s talking about ( Gennai, Digimon Soveriegn, etc ), explains that Digimon will always retain thier memory after they come back.

    @DaWolf

    You seem to have the right idea. I see why its impossible to Composite Peidmon when its specifically referring to the Alias, but not when its referring to the species. You won’t composite the Flash ( DC ), because all of the other Flashes are different characters ( black and white ) and there is a current Flash in a main continuity. You don’t composite Cloud because you can’t, since he only appears in one of the FF universes. You can’t composite the Moogles, because well, you can make an article full of all of the differences. You can’t combine Classic Megaman and Megaman Zero. I understand these scenarios, but not Digimon.

    AkumaTh, you’ve mentioned the differences between the parralel worlds, but you haven’t explained the differences in the species. Whats so incompatable about them?

  88. AkumaTh August 23, 2009 at 3:11 pm -      #88

    I’ll just target the points that could be done because as of right now, we don’t know if they would add them or not. Though I would add Chocobos and Summon Monsters are also present each series and Moogles only have a visual evolution while they still have many internal traits that still match.

    ““Change” whatever they want? More like “add” whatever they want to the Digimon Universe.””
    So you think removing what a Digimon can digivolve too as adding. Heck, in the games alone there’s various ways that are changed. Gatomon one game can be digivolved from a ToyAgumon.

    “In which case, let me ask you this. Other than the flood of information were getting from the cards, games, and anime about the individual species. How do you think Bandai should give us new information on previous digimon?”
    By continuing the story where the previous Digimon exist. I would have loved to see a Adventure 3 season. How the Dark Masters returned or something like that. I’m a fan of Etemon.

    “Never seen it anywhere either. But it makes sense. How would a baby or an in-training digimon evolve otherwise? Why do digimon usually revert to thier rookie form after they are weakened?”
    We haven’t seen other Digimon revert back to their rookie form outside the destined Digimon. And with Frontiers, it seemed that the ability to Digivolve is something they could control. They can slide evolution back and forth from one another. Entemon didn’t revert after being defeated, he got stronger.
    www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZ3u027vSl4

    Sadly, I can not because like other series, they never explained it as thoroughly as they do their main focus. Savers is the only one that even mentions about what happens after they hatch. For all we know, the writers probably never bothered with this and used it as an excuse to kill off a main Digimon but have him return later on. Heck, Savers probably just added that comment just to make Agumon’s return look more dramatic.

    There are two current Flashes in the Main Continuity. Thanks to the Events of Final Crisis, both Barry Allen and Wally West are back as the Flash (with Bart Allen back as Kid Flash). Later though, I heard Wally is going to adopt another name but that hasn’t been released yet. And I have mentioned various differences between them but you shot them down with explanations that had no real source.

    Pretty much, we have to blame the writers for not clarifying all these. They can make someone who was an embassador and wrote a book become someone who doesn’t know how to fuel a car! With different writers per series, there is always a different feel that isn’t explored because they don’t expand upon it. Digimon just gives us the satisfaction that they’re different canon.

  89. JoshMcFace August 23, 2009 at 4:25 pm -      #89

    Should I bother to suggest “the royal knights vs the dragon trio (pokemon)? Or are the knights too overpowered?

  90. AkumaTh August 23, 2009 at 5:32 pm -      #90

    @JoshMcFace: I recommend specifying which Royal Knights you want to use. I think Frontiers’ Royal Knights would be good since it’ll be 2 against 3.

  91. EnigmaJ August 23, 2009 at 6:25 pm -      #91

    @JoshMcFace

    Composite Knights should be able to battle the Dragon Trio. Alot of interesting points could be brought up. I second that suggestion.

    (Though, really, it would only be a battle between the Inforcers and Dragon Trio. The other Knights can’t handle straight up reality-warpers. Neither Dynasmon or Crusadermon could take any of the trio let alone have a 2 vs 3 in favor of the pokemon. )

    Alphamon, Omnimon X, UlforceVeedramon vs Giratina, Dialga, Palkia

    Best Choice.

    @AkumaTh

    “So you think removing what a Digimon can digivolve too as adding.”

    With this logic, Halo 2 is not canon to Halo 1 because they removed the assualt rifle. In your mind, its “removing” a form. In my mind, its not “including” it. Yet, in Halo 3, when they add new weapons, we count them as canon. Its the same thing. Heres the best part ( you listening =] ? ), just as Bungie can add new weapons to Halo, Bandai can give digimon new evolutionary forms.

    Your expecting them to keep every single evoltuion throughout every source in the game. Thats ridiculous. Evolution lines are one of the most flexible things in Digimon. I think your trying to make a comparison to Pokemon, where evolution lines are static.

    “And I have mentioned various differences between them but you shot them down with explanations that had no real source.”

    Various differences between the digimon? The only thing I remember shooting down without any real source is the scene where a digimon evolved without notice. Even if I can’t address it, I can wave it as a “mistake”. ( Unless this happened multiple times )

    Like I’ve said, you’ve mentioned various differences between the worlds, not the Digimon. What makes the species of Digimon in Season 1 different from the Digimon in Season 3. You’ve yet to address that.

    Well actually, you have, but I’ve shot them down ( with real sources =P ).

    1) You say that the Royal Knights were different sizes in different sources. I say even with the same “canon” ( Adventures ), we see two different sized Agumon

    2) You say, they “removed” an evolution form in a game. I say, they can’t possibly have every single evolution form in a game. Like I said before, its like doubting the the assault rifle is “canon” because they left it out in Halo 2. The producers of the game may leave out things like these because: 1- Its unnecessary for the game/plot 2- They may not have enough to put these things in the game.

    ————————————————

    Let me simplify this whole argument.

    You believe Digimon has seperate canons, am I right? Your somewhat right about this. Digimon, being a multiverse, has different canon continuities. I could name a few right now, Adventures, V-Tamer, Frontier, Savers, Tamers etc. These universes are “vastly” different as you’ve been trying to prove. They have different histories, inhabitants, rules etc. And event that happens in one, isn’t canon in another universe. By this I mean, the events that take place in one universe don’t necesarrily take place in another. You keep bringing up information to further this point, but it doesn’t substantiate your overall goal

    “In short: they maybe the same species, but they are not the same Digimon.”

    We all know that the universes are different, but the digimon are still digimon. They are all still the Digimon created by Bandai. Your arguing that Bandai’s Agumon is different from Bandai’s Agumon. That Bandai’s Omegamon is different from Bandai’s Omegamon.

    My evidence~

    1) Whether or not a digimon has a profile, the fact that Bandai has official Digimon profiles shows that the Digimon of the same name throughout all sources are the same.

    2) The fact that subspecies of Digimon even exist. Why would they have needed to use a subspecies of Agumon in Data Squad if its as irrelvant as you say?

    3) The similarity between Digimon bewtween sources. They almost always know the same attacking moves and have similar abilities. Sometimes they add a few new attacks ( rarely ) and sometimes a source give us a better idea of their stats ( speed, strength etc. )

    You’ve brough up multiple examples from other Franchises but none of them relate to Digimon at all. The Moogles and Choocabe are not the main focus on the Final Fantasy stories. They are as subject to change as the world’s themselves. Digimon, however, are not. Heck, it makes more sense to composite Omnimon than it does to composite Link. Composites are rarely even possible in Final Fantasy.
    ———————————————————————

    “In short: they maybe the same species, but they are not the same Digimon.”

    You’ve yet to prove why they aren’t the same digimon. Considering the fact that mostly everywhere I go, people have different ideas about digimon canon ( Wonderswan games, Movies, etc ), this is probably just your opinion.

    I have seen people doubt whether or not the WonderSwan games are canon to Adventures and whether or not Hurricane Touchdown is canon to 02. This “idea” of yours may very well be the same thing. Just a matter of opinion. So neither of us may be right.

    But, I’m going say this again =P. Most people don’t share this “opinion” of yours.

  92. AkumaTh August 23, 2009 at 9:11 pm -      #92

    @EnigmaJ: “With this logic, Halo 2 is not canon to Halo 1 because they removed the assualt rifle.”
    No, because the Halo universe is contained in it’s own canon. Also: “It is the older of the BR55 series rifles. It is most notable for its powerful three-round burst fire and accurate 2x scope, making it more efficient at farther ranges than the Assault Rifle.”
    Considering what you had to do in Halo 2, I believe this was the better choice. You want to use the most efficient tools when you do stuff.

    “Like I’ve said, you’ve mentioned various differences between the worlds, not the Digimon. What makes the species of Digimon in Season 1 different from the Digimon in Season 3. You’ve yet to address that.”
    Series 1: Once a battle is over, able to return to base Digimon, no problem.
    Series 2: Once a battle is over, unable to return to base Digimon. Must remove access energies to do so.
    Series 1: Capable of Digivolving in the real world.
    Series 2: Unable to Digivolve in the real world unless in a digital field or given something from the Soverines.
    Care to explain these?

    1) The Official Profile maybe just for this series that they’re pushing. There’s nothing there stating it’s for every Digimon series.

    2) To make money. It’s the same reason Nintendo continues to make more Pokemon. It’s the reason Final Fantasy 7 keeps getting Spinoffs.

    3) There are similarities within everything. Doesn’t mean they are exactly the same. I mentioned similarities for Pokemon to be Digital.

    “But, I’m going say this again =P. Most people don’t share this “opinion” of yours.”
    But this isn’t a popularity contest. This is a debate.

    Sadly, the only people who can tell us who’s right are the guys behind Digimon. The writers and directors themselves, not Bandai.

  93. EnigmaJ August 23, 2009 at 11:49 pm -      #93

    “It is the older of the BR55 series rifles. It is most notable for its powerful three-round burst fire and accurate 2x scope, making it more efficient at farther ranges than the Assault Rifle.”

    Ah, but your missing the point. They removed the assualt rifle from the universe itself. It didn’t exist in Halo 2. Therefore, its not the same universe.

    Not to mention the pistol doesn’t exist in the Halo 2 universe. They have magnums instead. And you know whatelse? They’ve mentioned alot more weapons in the books. Can’t possibly be the same universe.

    “Care to explain these?”

    All those points miss the point entirely. The points you’ve mentioned are definately discrepancies between the universes’ rules. ( How many times do I have to tell you that I understand the universes are different ? ). Let’s say we take Guilmon and place it in Season 1. Are you telling me, the only difference is not the digimon itself, but these universe based details? Are you telling me that the only thing that seperates a Season 1 Guilmon and a Season 2 Guilmon is the fact that it can’t evolve in the real world.

    Is this the best you can do to show me that its an entirely different concept?

    “1) The Official Profile maybe just for this series that they’re pushing. There’s nothing there stating it’s for every Digimon series.”

    Ahh, so now your speculating that these “Official” profiles on the official digimon website isn’t official for “Digimon” but for “Digimon” ? See how wierd that sounds? And what “series” are they pushing that I’ve never heard of? I already explained in a previous post that most of this information you see is for Digimon Twin L and R ( Liberation and Revolution ). This thing that that they are “pushing” is the newest V-Pet, which came out in 2007 ( Emphasis on the very old date. Yet they manage to come out with new profiles everyweek. I wonder… ).

    wikimon.net/Digimon_Twin

    Look at the list of pokemon here in Digimon Twin and tell me if you see over 200+ pokemon. There are digimon on that list that haven’t appeared on any V-Pet let alone, this “series” that they ae pushing. And “nothing there stating it’s for the series?” Why do you “speculate” they added the year they first ever made an appearance? They added the year 2000 next to Omegamon’s profile ( Year, Digimon the Movie was released ) and the year 2006 next to Agumon’s profile ( Data Squad subspecies ) just for the Lulz?

    “Millenniumon
    The ultimate combined Digimon with preponderant power, formed from a fusion of Machinedramon and Kimeramon, who both contain various bits of data from other Digimon. It’s said that defeating or capturing him is impossible to do, and the reason behind the fusion is still unknown. His special attack is “Time Unlimited”, which creates a strange dimension by compressing time, and seals the opponent within the subspace.”

    Milleniummon profile. Explains Milleniummon exactly as it was in WonderSwan, even describing the fusion that was required and some of his attacks. And does this look like V-Pet stats to you?

    “Shakkoumon
    Ankylomon and Angemon Jogress-Evolved into this Mutant type Digimon. He bears silvery white wings, and because he once descended down onto the ancient Digital World, many witnesses claim that he should also be classed as an Angel type Digimon. He can attack the enemy from all directions by spinning his neck and torso 360°. Those who first meet him are greeted with what they describe as a ‘fearful-looking face that never changes its expression’, but in actual fact he has a mild nature. With his “Nigimitama” attack, he strikes the enemy with his hips. His special attack is “Aramitama”, which irradiates a destructive red laser beam from his eyes, with a temperature of over 100,000 degrees.”

    Describes the fusion we saw in 02. And again, it even mentions the attacks we saw from it.

    “Dorumon
    A supposedly Beast type Digimon that bears an old interface on his forehead, and is assumed to be a former ‘Prototype Digimon’. Part of a combat race of Digimon whose original characteristics have arisen more strongly, his high battle instincts cause him to bite at anything he sees, often prompting more battles to occur. It’s said that his Digi-Core is carved with the battle data of a legendary “Dragon”, and that he bears the possibility of evolving into more powerful Digimon as he grows up. His special attack is “Metal Cannon”, which fires cannonballs from his mouth. By charging across the path and then stopping, he’s able to preform “Dash Metal”: an effective attack where he’ll also fire out cannonballs with a greater amount of accumulated power.”

    We saw most, if not all of this stuff in X-Evolution. When did we see any of this stuff in V-Pets?

    Really, I can go all day.

    These are profiles for the digimon in general. And look, Wikimon’s staff and thier normal visitors agree with me =)

    wikimon.net/Digimon_Web
    -“It is considered as the official website of the Digimon franchise in general.”

    I find this quite humorous actually. Your argument collapses if there ARE actually official digimon profiles xD ( which there are =P ). But let’s see whatelse you have to say.

    “2)To make money. It’s the same reason Nintendo continues to make more Pokemon. It’s the reason Final Fantasy 7 keeps getting Spinoffs.”

    Again, you miss the point. Nintendo makes new pokemon for thier new pokemon games (which they sell =P). The Final Fantasy spin-offs are whats being sold. You keep giving me examples from other franchises without realizing how different the situations are. Are the subspecies of Digimon being sold? No, its the series or games that they are in. A game isn’t going to make more money if it has a subspecies of digimon in it instead of the main one that was already come up with. It would make the same amount of money with the main species. And according to you, the person behind the game, can do whatever the heck he wants to the main species anyway. So with your logic, having subspecies would be pointless.

    “3) There are similarities within everything. Doesn’t mean they are exactly the same. I mentioned similarities for Pokemon to be Digital.”

    So we’re to assume they are dfiferent by default? I’ve mentioned to you these similarities, but where are the differences? Pokemon vs Digimon has more differences than similarities. Season 1 vs Season 3 has more similarities than differences. See the difference ( Pun Intended =O )? Whats the difference between Adventure’s Omnimon and X-Evolution Omnimon? Other than thier histories? Other than thier universe’s rules? Other than what was previously mentioned, only thing else that could really be different are the moves. And those can be combined =P

    I need to look up some Zelda. I bet you can find just these sortof discrapancies between the timelines =P. I mean, you have failed in bringing up similar franchises with the same situation. Maybe I should look myself.

    “Sadly, the only people who can tell us who’s right are the guys behind Digimon. The writers and directors themselves, not Bandai.”

    Bandai owns digimon as it started out as Virtual Pets ( which were produced by, guess who, Bandai ). End of story. They have the final word. Thats like saying the guy who wrote The Fall of Reach for Halo has the final word on Halo canon.

  94. DaWolf August 24, 2009 at 12:03 pm -      #94

    “Alphamon in his few appearances didn’t show off this ability as a Royal Knight”

    I think I know how to counter this. If you’ve ever seen the movie, near the end Alphamon say’s ” So this is how it must be” or something to that effect and sacrifices himself to defeat dexdourumon and give omegamon the power to defeat yggdrasil. Maybe, just maybe, one could argue he used the inforce to see that he had to sacrifice himself to give omegamon that power. EnigmaJ maybe you can find that video cuz I suck when it comes to looking for stuff like that : (

  95. AkumaTh August 24, 2009 at 12:44 pm -      #95

    “Ah, but your missing the point. They removed the assualt rifle from the universe itself. It didn’t exist in Halo 2. Therefore, its not the same universe.”
    You’re trying to compare scrapping out of date weapons with removing an evolutionary line with no real reason. Both Digimon that could have digivolve from one to the other are still there, but now their line is broken. With that same logic, we can say the Civil War never happened. Or the crusades.

    “All those points miss the point entirely. The points you’ve mentioned are definately discrepancies between the universes’ rules.”
    Why are the Digimon the same if the Universe is different then? That’s like saying the humans from Inuyasha is the same from Ramna 1/2 because the same person created it.

    “Why do you “speculate” they added the year they first ever made an appearance?”
    Because Digimon.net‘s IP Address is located in France while Bandai.co.jp is located in Japan? Thinking if it was really by Bandai, they would host their own website, since all they would really need is to buy a domain name and link it to where it is at in it’s own host.

    “Again, you miss the point. Nintendo makes new pokemon for thier new pokemon games (which they sell =P). The Final Fantasy spin-offs are whats being sold. You keep giving me examples from other franchises without realizing how different the situations are.”
    You said it youself: “Bandai does specialize in the toys.” More Digimon means more stuff to sell. The games and the anime is a side effect of this. The Anime is made to get interest in the new Digimon, which the new games just so happens to have along with your old favorites. You’re making it sound like Bandai actually cares for the series.

    “So we’re to assume they are dfiferent by default? I’ve mentioned to you these similarities, but where are the differences?”
    Do you think the Humans of Dragonball Z can be confused with the Humans of Gurren Lagann? Lot’s of similarities. Few differences.

    “I mean, you have failed in bringing up similar franchises with the same situation. Maybe I should look myself.”
    -There is an opposite effect where the people don’t believe DBGT is canon because they’re not by the same writers yet the anime does come after the events.
    -Gurren Lagann had a whole set of Parallel worlds not included in the discussion (mostly because it’s music videos).
    -Pokemon has the simular situation with Mystery Dungeon. While everything looks the same, some balancing issues were fixed while others were introduced. Despite the similarities, no one combines them, nor with the main canon.

    The only thing I can compare Digimon with are Movie reboots. Jason at his current state before his remake was unable to run, yet in the remake he now can. Also, no one ever brings up his ability to teleport from Part 8 and even the writers ignored what was established in 9 when they made X and Vs Freddy.

    “Bandai owns digimon as it started out as Virtual Pets ( which were produced by, guess who, Bandai ). End of story. They have the final word. Thats like saying the guy who wrote The Fall of Reach for Halo has the final word on Halo canon.”
    “Nylund is the author of three novels set in the Halo universe: Halo: The Fall of Reach, Halo: First Strike and Halo: Ghosts of Onyx. He is employed as a writer for Microsoft Game Studios.”
    Microsoft owns Halo. So yes, it would be the final word on the Halo Canon.

  96. EnigmaJ August 24, 2009 at 2:24 pm -      #96

    “You’re trying to compare scrapping out of date weapons with removing an evolutionary line with no real reason.”

    Scrapping out of date weapons? So did they remove the weapons from the universe? Or did they just not include it in the game? I’m using your logic remember. The Assault rifle didn’t appear in Halo 2 so from this, we can assume two things
    1) The assault rifle is not in the Halo 2 universe
    2) Halo 2 is its own canon

    “Why are the Digimon the same if the Universe is different then? That’s like saying the humans from Inuyasha is the same from Ramna 1/2 because the same person created it.”

    They are entirely different universes with entirely different concepts. See, how that works? Are you trying to compare the massive differences we see between Ranma and Inuyasha to the small differences between Tamers and AdventureS?

    Why are the Digimon the same? Exactly what I’m trying to prove. The fact that subspecies even exist, the fact that there are official profiles of the seperate species, and the lack of significant difference of species between sources.

    “Both Digimon that could have digivolve from one to the other are still there, but now their line is broken.”

    Like I said, they aren’t going to put in every single evolution form in a game just because it exists. Multiple lines exist for digimon. Hear that? Multiple lines. Just because they don’t include a line in a game doesn’t mean it wasn’t there.

    “Because Digimon.net’s IP Address is located in France while Bandai.co.jp is located in Japan?”

    First you argued they weren’t official profiles for every digimon. I shot that down. Now your arguing they the site isn’t Bandai’s? Your looking for everything you could possibly dispute aren’t you? Wow. The site’s IP is in France, don’t ask me why. But according to them, they moved it.

    Original link given on Wikimon and Wikipedia
    www.digimon.channel.or.jp/
    Translated by Babel Fish
    babelfish.yahoo.com/translate_url?doit=done&tt=url&intl=1&fr=bf-home&trurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.digimon.channel.or.jp%2F&lp=ja_en&btnTrUrl=Translate

    Like I said before. The fact alone that there are Official Profiles by Bandai really puts a damper on your claims.

    “More Digimon means more stuff to sell. The games and the anime is a side effect of this. The Anime is made to get interest in the new Digimon, which the new games just so happens to have along with your old favorites. You’re making it sound like Bandai actually cares for the series.”

    Thats not the point. The subspecies are new Digimon, yes. But its not the same thing as adding new digimon. I tell you the whole reason why there would be subspecies in the first place and you take as if I’m talking about new digimon in general.

    Why the hell did they have to use an Agumon subspecies in Data Squad? Your telling me, Data Squad made more money by the little known fact that it was a different type of Agumon?

    My point? According to you, they could change the original species ( Agumon ) as much as they choose to. Then with this logic, they could have used the original Agumon, added straps, give him all of the new abilities, and put it in Data Squad as a normal Agumon? But they didn’t, they created a new creature and classified it under Agumon as a different digimon.

    “Do you think the Humans of Dragonball Z can be confused with the Humans of Gurren Lagann? Lot’s of similarities. Few differences.”

    Different franchises, different concept all together. Digimon is Digimon. Why do you keep pointing out difference between seperate franchises all together when attempting to show me why Digimon is different from Digimon?

    “There is an opposite effect where the people don’t believe DBGT is canon ”

    It isn’t canon, so what’s your point?

    “Pokemon has the simular situation with Mystery Dungeon. While everything looks the same, some balancing issues were fixed while others were introduced.”

    Differences
    1) Main canon would be considered the the games/anime
    2) Even within the pokemon games, the normal RPGs are developed by Game Freak and the Mysery Dungeon was developed by Chunsoft instead of directly by Nintendo.
    3) They don’t have official pokemon profiles ;).

    “Despite the similarities, no one combines them, nor with the main canon.”

    But everybody combines Digimon. And theres evidence that the digimon are universal.

    “Microsoft owns Halo. So yes, it would be the final word on the Halo Canon.”

    Meh, point taken. I forgot Bungie was apart of Microsoft at the time. =P But can you find a similar quote about the Digimon animes/mangas?

  97. AkumaTh August 24, 2009 at 6:59 pm -      #97

    “I’m using your logic remember.”
    No you’re not. You’re trying to compare out of date weapons with evolutionary lines. The Assault Riffle didn’t appear in Halo 2 was because they didn’t use Assault Riffles. You probably saw them around in the ruins only broken.

    “They are entirely different universes with entirely different concepts.”
    Yet they still contain Humans, Demons, Curses, priestess, half-demons, even the designs of the characters and artistic styles are similar. Heck people believe Ranma Saotome is Inuyasha’s reincarnation. The creator never even stated if it’s canon or not, just like Digimon.

    “Like I said before. The fact alone that there are Official Profiles by Bandai really puts a damper on your claims.”
    No, because that original link as well was from France. The reason I brought the IP Locations up was because I began to wonder why they would add profiles yet not change the storyline to reflect what was currently release.

    “Your telling me, Data Squad made more money by the little known fact that it was a different type of Agumon?”
    You’ll be surprised what people would buy into. Tweak something old and market it as something new and people will fall for it. Heck, that’s how Digimon was made, being nothing more then Tamagotchi for boys.

    “It isn’t canon, so what’s your point?”
    Thing is, there’s no where that states that it isn’t Canon. The fans believe it is because the Manga doesn’t exist, yet Toei Animation still made the series and Toriyama did oversee its production and offer insights and ideas for the series. He never went out and said it wasn’t canon. You would think the guy who made the series would have said something.

    I also noticed you skipped my movie reboots part.

    I looked for any connection to Bandai outside source and found the following: Toei Animation is the only connection for the TV series as the writers who made them are employees for Toei. Bandai only published Digimon Chronicle for Mangas. Bandai did published all the games and even developed alot of them (though the more recent ones are based off the merger between Namco and Bandai). This is exactly like Sonic’s situation.

  98. EnigmaJ August 24, 2009 at 10:43 pm -      #98

    “I also noticed you skipped my movie reboots part.”

    Because I knew nothing about that movie and I was too lazy to look it up at that moment. I might look it up at a later time, but my point still lies with my evidence. None of this stuff matter because Official Profiles exist and because of the new information I’ve provided later on in my post.

    “No you’re not. You’re trying to compare out of date weapons with evolutionary lines.”

    No it wasn’t. According to Halopedia, the MA5B supplemented firearms such as the Battle Rifle that appeared in Halo. Not to mention you forgot to address the M6D pistol, which is clearly superior to the M6C Magnum which appeared later on. I’m showing you that the designers of a game have the right to add new things wherever they see fit ( if they are allowed to =P ) and not include things they deem unnecessary or to time costly. Could you please tell me that why evolution line that was left was so important to overall plot? Why it killed the game? Like I said, do you expect Bandai to include every single evolution line in every single game? Do you expect them to allow you to fuse Agumon and Gabumon into Omnimon every single game they appeared in?

    “Yet they still contain Humans, Demons, Curses, priestess, half-demons, even the designs of the characters and artistic styles are similar. Heck people believe Ranma Saotome is Inuyasha’s reincarnation. The creator never even stated if it’s canon or not, just like Digimon.”

    Humans, Demons etc. None of those things are very unique aspects to any work of fiction ( you see them everywhere =P ) It makes sense the artistic styles would be similar since the same person produced it. Were there any other similarities that would make it the same canon, other than the obvious things previously mentioned? I mean if thats it, then the conclusions made was obviously full blown speculation.

    “No, because that original link as well was from France.”

    The whole reason I gave you those links was to show you that they had previously moved it. In really don’t see why its such a problem that the IP originated from France, especially when Bandai is the world’s third largest producers of toys, Digimon is sold worldwide, and they have specific websites for the US, UK, Asia and several countries in Europe.

    “The reason I brought the IP Locations up was because I began to wonder why they would add profiles yet not change the storyline to reflect what was currently release.”

    Digimon Twin are the most recent V-Pets ( remember this is how Digimon began ) produced by Bandai. It makes sense that this would be all over thier “wall.” In any case, I’ve already shown you that Wikimon and Wikipedia states its the official Digimon website. And I’ve given you evidence that shows information from those profiles match a variety of sources.

    “Tweak something old and market it as something new and people will fall for it.”

    Your getting warmer, but your still off. According to you, they could have taken the original Agumon and made it identical to the new one ( which would have been a very drastic change from the original ). But that is not the case. They could have made a “different” Agumon using the previous one, but they didn’t. They made an entirely new subspecies for it, because as I’ve already explained, the changes that they made would have made it an “entirely new” digimon. There’s no way you can say that this made them more money, when the majority of people watching the Data Squad would not have even known it was a subspecies. Data Squad was made to attract an older audience than the previous series. The “newbies” would barely even know what an Agumon is. The “oldies” would watch Data Squad regardless ( and still many would be ignorant of the fact that its a subspecies ). This is especially so considering many people just watch the series ( they don’t go looking up this kind of stuff =P ).

    “Thing is, there’s no where that states that it isn’t Canon.”

    Ask almost any reader of Manga/Anime and they’d tell you that only things that happened in the original manga written by the original author apply. Meaning, movies, filler, and spin-offs such as GT are left out of the main continuity. Don’t get me wrong, if the OP says the match includes Ssj4 and othe GT material, then said material is used. Just like if Broly is used, we take material from the movie. Dragonball and Dragonball Z are both considered canon becase they both were originally mangas. Not to mention, DBZ fans notice a drastic drop in power by in GT. Ex: DBZ’ers were able to casually planet bust after the time they fought Frieza ( Cell even claimed he could destroy the Solar System ). Buu destroyed one of the four galaxies long in the past and he destroyed atleast half a dozen planets on screen. In GT, Baby tried his hardest and he wasn’t able to blow up a world. And the Z-Fighters had a hard time with them.

    This is applies to mangas such as One Piece, Bleach, Naruto, etc because they have a main continuity. Digimon doesn’t have one. References to the movies are made often in the anime, so they are considered canon. The mangas, games, and animes are not all part of the same continuity, so they are all canon.

    “I looked for any connection to Bandai outside source and found the following: Toei Animation is the only connection for the TV series as the writers who made them are employees for Toei. Bandai only published Digimon Chronicle for Mangas. Bandai did published all the games and even developed alot of them (though the more recent ones are based off the merger between Namco and Bandai).”

    First of all, where did you find that info? According to Wikipedia, the digimon series was produced by Bandai and Toei Animation.

    1) Its not like Sonic, because Sonic has a main continuity. The Games
    2) That only goes to show that they are different universes. In Digimon, all mangas, games, and the anime are canon because few interfere with each other’s storylines. Only a few movies would be considered non-canon. Different universes within the Digimon Multiverse. What I’m trying to show you is that the Digimon remain the same.

    ——————————————————-

    Calling timeout to say a few things.

    First, I have to make it known how much I hate the fact that you’ve taken this so horrendously off-topic. Rawr! >:( Had to get that off my chest.

    Second, I have to say after checking the “Digital Pokemon” thing you made and poking my nose here and there, I’ve discovered a few things about you. Apparently you’ve made dozens of sprites, mugens, and have done like 1k comics? Nice job

    @DaWolf

    I actually thought the same thing a while back. But sorry I won’t be able to address anything until I finish this.

    ————————————————————————–

    As you know, the Digimon universe is a Multiverse. Each of the different series are universes that take place in the multiverse. So I’m going to bring up another point I haven’t brought up yet. The Wonderswan games produced by Bandai.

    These games explain the story behind a myserious character, Ryo who was not only a main character in Tamers but made made a small cameo in Adventure 02.

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dQrwyuX39U

    The Wonderswan games were basically the adventures Ryo had facing off against Milleniummon ( who also appeared in the Video ). In the Wonderswan games Ryo intertravelled between Adventures and Tamers conveniently with the of ENIAC. This alone places Tamers and Adventures within the same “canon”.

    For a better explanation, see here ( See 5.5 ) ~
    digipedia.db-destiny.net/misc/faq.htm#1.6

    As for the rest? If you already used the link then you would know what ENIAC stated himself that there were multple Digital worlds within the Digimon Multiverse. And he himself created all of them.

    Heres another source ( A Brave Tamers walkthrough )~
    www.gamefaqs.com/portable/wscolor/file/580563/24297

    “Monodramon’s only task is to take Ryo to the ENIAC, the founder of all the Digital Worlds across the multiverse.”

    And another one =P ~
    syldra.net/yesterday/wonderswan/bravetamer2.html

    “ENIAC (Electronic Numerical Integrator And Computer, created in 1945 and unveiled in 1946) is the world’s first digital computer, whose creation spawned the creation of the Digital World. As the founding force, it is also the origin point of all the DW dimensions.”

    This along with my own previous points ( Official Profiles and the existence of subspecies, while the main species abilities remain relatively static has me convinced. )

  99. Dracosphinx August 24, 2009 at 11:56 pm -      #99

    wow… The most kickass characters have some of the gayest names don’t they?

  100. AkumaTh August 25, 2009 at 11:44 am -      #100

    “No it wasn’t. According to Halopedia, the MA5B supplemented firearms such as the Battle Rifle that appeared in Halo. ”

    MA5B – “The MA5B Assault Rifle uses M118 7.62x51mm Armor Piercing, Full Metal Jacket Rounds. These rounds are designed to pierce human-made armor and unfortunately, perform poorly against the superior technology of Covenant energy shielding.”
    BR55 – “It uses a new 9.5 x 40mm Experimental Round. The 7.62 x 51 mm NATO round is a rather high-powered round used on the MA5B and on modern-day marksman rifles and machine guns. The 7.62 mm already has a history of having too much recoil because of the round’s high power, which made it hard to fire in full-auto in assault rifles.”

    There is a reason to not keep it. Too boot, it’s still canon because “the weapon remained in solid infantry use in the background of the Halo Universe until the introduction of the MA5C.”

    They have a good reason to remove a weapon. Did Bandai had a reason?

    “None of those things are very unique aspects to any work of fiction ( you see them everywhere =P )”
    Weak. Can’t argue that right now but I’ll find something…

    “Digimon is sold worldwide, and they have specific websites for the US, UK, Asia and several countries in Europe.”
    So why would a a Japanese site be hosted on a France server, when their Japanese site is on a Japanese server and their France Site is on a European Server?

    Wiki’s can be edited freely without sources. Bandai hasn’t officially done so on their own site. And there are a lot of people online who could keep everything close to the source.

    “There’s no way you can say that this made them more money, when the majority of people watching the Data Squad would not have even known it was a subspecies.”
    There’s also no way you can say that this didn’t made them more money. Digiwiki was made by fans who probably followed everything as well. And if you change something the fanboys will attack unless you got a reason (Sub Species).

    Yeah, I really dislike GT so I even considered it non-canon. It made me hate the original DBZ too boot. But like Bandai, the creator of the series didn’t state it being canon or not. So who knows?

    I got the information from Wikipedia. When was the last time you checked?

    But the situation is like Sonic’s.

    Game(Toy) came out. Company goes to an animation studio to create a cartoon series about the product with no plot. Animation company created a plot. New product came out and they return to the animation company to create a new series to promote it. Instead of continuing the old series, they made an entirely new one with concepts of the old series but changing it so it would be different.

    And honestly, only the specific species interfered. We never seen a true connection. The Mangas and games have their own storylines and any connection with each other is simply added for fan service.

    ——————————————————-

    Yeah, I kind of hate that fact too. It makes it seems I’m giving up on proving the Espada can win and trying to change it up. But Digimon are the only ones who seem able to break the specific rule.

    And thanks. I got a great schedule to do all this.

    ————————————————————————–

    There are also contradictions within that explanation. In Ken’s flashbacks, there was no appearance of his face. In Tamers, he is refered to that by Takato’s two friends, who knowledge of the Digital World was limited. He was known as the Legendary Tamer because he was the only one who defeated Rika but disappeared a year ago. He’s also shown to have parents in the Tamer World, with only the speculation of them being brought there.

    Digimon Season 2 was aired originally on April 2, 2000 to March 25, 2001. The game related to the second season was released in 3rd August 2000, well after Ken’s backstory. Too boot, Digimon Medley, the game after, seem to have dropped all concepts and have the Tamers watching the events of Adventures and faced a Digimon they never seen until the Virus attacked. Too boot, the Digidestined in the games seemed more crueler then in the anime since they lied to Ryo.

    “It was decided that Ryo was to be included into Digimon Tamers because of his immense popularity at the time as the main character of many Digimon video games.” Meaning the animators wanted to include him as fan service for those who played the game and Bandai used that to try to link the two of them together. Heck, the anime has them meeting for the first time yet in the game he met Takato and Guilmon already.

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