Retribution Class Battleship Vs Super Star Destroyer

Retribution Class Battleship (Warhammer 40K) Vs Super Star Destroyer (Star Wars)

Fantastic fight we have on our hands here. I confess to not knowing as much about the Warhammer vessel as I do about the Super Star Destroyer. So, I’ll leave it up to those can speak intelligently on this matter.

Which craft would win?

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378 Comments on "Retribution Class Battleship Vs Super Star Destroyer"

  1. wpago July 11, 2013 at 4:15 pm -      #301

    Ummm… Does the Retribtuion have anyone from chapter 666 on it. I ask because in the Grey Knight Codex it states that they get the strongest and swiftest of the Imperial Navy’s ships. Along with the finest navigators and Ship captians. If so, what are we looking at? A Grandmaster? A Brother Captian? Strike Squads? Purifers? or god forbid Paldins…

  2. GuardianAngel1911 July 11, 2013 at 4:30 pm -      #302

    It’s just a buck standard Retribution and a buck standard SSD no specific squads on them. If there are any Space Marines they would be just average ones. No special ones. If any ones, I don’t know how the ships are loaded normally.

  3. itcheyness July 11, 2013 at 5:29 pm -      #303

    Ramming and boarding the SSD would probably end badly for the Retribution, it would be shot up by the SSD on approach and when they boarded they would almost certainly be heavily outnumbered by the 280,000 military trained crew. (That’s not counting the possible 38,000 ground troops able to be carried)
    -
    I’m not sure how many crew members the Retribution would have, but it’s likely a majority of those would be press ganged civilians with little to no training who don’t even remotely want to be there…

  4. itcheyness July 11, 2013 at 5:36 pm -      #304

    Oh, and Retribution class ships don’t usually carry Space Marines…

  5. Aelfinn July 11, 2013 at 9:05 pm -      #305

    I must add some aspect of scale to this. If all of the SSD’s turbolasers are max strength (which I’ve said to be 2 Gigatons, if anyone wishes to debate this, that’s fine, but that’s what I’m working off of now), then they will deliver a yield of 8 Teratons onto the Retribution. That is approximately 13 times the pure kinetic energy of a single torpedo (Not counting the explosive yield afterwards). Such must be considered.

  6. GuardianAngel1911 July 11, 2013 at 9:19 pm -      #306

    @Aelfinn
    you mean eight teratons every time they all fire at once? damn that’s a fuckton of firepower….

  7. Murder July 11, 2013 at 9:22 pm -      #307

    Only way I see 40K taking this is if they get a lucky hit from their vortex torpedoes. Even a SSD will suffer from just one hit ripping a KM size chunk of their ship off.

    Getting those torpedoes through the rain of turbolasers would be a miracle though.

  8. Sauroposeidon July 11, 2013 at 9:27 pm -      #308

    The talk of ramming and its consequences seems premature. Talk of whether or not it could ever get that close should be discussed. Aren’t Empire ships ridiculously fast? I know standard Star Destroyers of various types are.. Do the Super SD’s keep that up?They don’t seem as heavily dedicated to propulsion as their smaller brothers but I know that doesn’t necessarily mean anything.

  9. Neon Lord July 11, 2013 at 9:33 pm -      #309

    “I must add some aspect of scale to this. If all of the SSD’s turbolasers are max strength (which I’ve said to be 2 Gigatons, if anyone wishes to debate this, that’s fine, but that’s what I’m working off of now), then they will deliver a yield of 8 Teratons onto the Retribution. That is approximately 13 times the pure kinetic energy of a single torpedo (Not counting the explosive yield afterwards). Such must be considered.”
    -
    I doubt all the Turbolasers are mounted on the one facing. At most half of that can be fired at once in a single broadside (unless they can all turn forwards and fire)

  10. GuardianAngel1911 July 11, 2013 at 9:33 pm -      #310

    @Sauro
    they have more engines than the standard Star Destroyer, and in Return of the Jedi the one that showed up decelerated just as easily as the smaller Star Destroyers, I’d guess that they likely have the same acceleration, but it might depend on the particular type of Super Star Destroyer there’s 34 variations of length armament and such.

  11. wpago July 11, 2013 at 9:37 pm -      #311

    The reason i asked is because it is published in the Codex Grey Knights they get the best of the best ships. Which are the the Retribtuion, most of which are seconded to the Grey Knights. Also Grey Knights just straight up telaport over. Even the Power Armor guys telaport.

    Next, in the Starwars universe arent weapon range with in line of sight? Where you can still see the enemy visualy? If so the the Retribtuion has range on it by far. In the latest Gaunts Ghost book it says they cant even see them because the enemy was so far away. They used the ships sytems to target them. Now these are servitors, Tech-priests, and ship serfs that could not see. The first two being heavly augmented. Litterally I see the the Retribtuion just sitting back shooting while the SSD is trying to figur out where the heck the shots are coming from.

  12. GuardianAngel1911 July 11, 2013 at 9:43 pm -      #312

    I remember an instance in the Vong War where a Star Destroyer (I think it was a Star Destroyer) blasted a Worldship from outside line of site, in order to fake the Galactic Alliance having a superweapon capable of attacking from across the galaxy. I don’t know how far it was though but far enough the Vong didn’t know a ship was shooting at them and not a weapon across the galaxy.

  13. Neon Lord July 11, 2013 at 9:45 pm -      #313

    “The reason i asked is because it is published in the Codex Grey Knights they get the best of the best ships. Which are the the Retribtuion, most of which are seconded to the Grey Knights. Also Grey Knights just straight up telaport over. Even the Power Armor guys telaport.

    Next, in the Starwars universe arent weapon range with in line of sight? Where you can still see the enemy visualy? If so the the Retribtuion has range on it by far. In the latest Gaunts Ghost book it says they cant even see them because the enemy was so far away. They used the ships sytems to target them. Now these are servitors, Tech-priests, and ship serfs that could not see. The first two being heavly augmented. Litterally I see the the Retribtuion just sitting back shooting while the SSD is trying to figur out where the heck the shots are coming from.”
    -
    Page number for Grey Knights getting specific access to ‘most’ Retribution class Battleships? I find this hard to believe.
    -
    I’m more inclined to believe that the SSD has more powerful sensors than the Retribution. The not being able to see thing may be simply because the ship is black against a black background. Most starship warfare should be done using sensors, as you can’t see anything out of viewports.

  14. GuardianAngel1911 July 11, 2013 at 9:51 pm -      #314

    seriously though…what type of SSD are we using because if it’s an Eclipse SSD then the Retribution is fucked up the ass, double the amount of turbolasers (meaning 8 teratons on either side and if all pointing 16….) plus a Superlaser (a continent busting one but still) and all that on top of 75 Ion Cannons
    (interesting fact it’s the Ion Cannons that have shorter range not the turbolasers, the SD’s in the movie wanted to capture the Falcon so they had to try and disable with Ion Cannons)

  15. Neon Lord July 11, 2013 at 9:55 pm -      #315

    It was mentioned early in the match that it was an Executor SSD

  16. Aelfinn July 11, 2013 at 9:59 pm -      #316

    I’m not entirely sure people are picking up what I’m putting down. All of the SSD’s turbolasers fired at the same time will amount to the same firepower from one-to-two salvos of torpedoes, based off of this image.
    -
    wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Torpedoes#.Ud9hEEG1HWs
    -
    Assuming three tubes on the other side as well means six torpedoes fired at a time (if the explosive yield is equal to the kinetic energy as indicated in the earlier quote) is equal to a full discharge by the entire SSD’s armament. Both the Lexicanum and the Wiki indicate that the torpedoes “are equally capable of causing extreme damage” in reference to a Retribution’s broadsides.
    -
    “http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Retribution_Class_Battleship#.Ud9h8UG1HWu”
    -
    This means that a full broadside has the same punch as those torpedoes (admittedly it may mean the same strength as a couple torpedoes), and is equal to the total turbolasers on the SSD.

  17. GuardianAngel1911 July 11, 2013 at 10:07 pm -      #317

    oh okay.
    Executor stats:
    Has an acceleration of 1,230 G’s
    13 engines to the standard SD’s 7
    class 2 Hyperdrive
    according to Star Wars Complete Locations has a power output for the shield of “Peak (shields): 3,8 × 1026 W” and the reactor has “Peak (reactor): >7,73 × 1026 W”
    plus the weapons load I mentioned on the previous page.

  18. Neon Lord July 11, 2013 at 10:27 pm -      #318

    “This means that a full broadside has the same punch as those torpedoes (admittedly it may mean the same strength as a couple torpedoes), and is equal to the total turbolasers on the SSD.”
    -
    One wiki must’ve copied off another for that statement, as I can’t find it anywhere. Going off-actual in-game stats, a broadside is a third more powerful than a torpedo salvo. Either way, I guess its putting out a massive amount of firepower, whilst designed to tank multiple such torpedo salvos and broadsides.

  19. wpago July 11, 2013 at 10:53 pm -      #319

    “Page number for Grey Knights getting specific access to ‘most’ Retribution class Battleships? I find this hard to believe.”

    Well, I am away from my codex at this time.
    The qoute goes like this (i will post offical qoute latter)

    It was noted the the Grey Knights would most heavly reliay upon the Imperial Navy. As such they have access to the Strongest and swiftest of the ships. They are steered by the best of captians and most powerful of navigators. they are even propelled by Mistike runs. Propelling them to unrivled speeds. Though this takes quite the toll on the machine spirt. As such, the ships spend just as much time in repair as they do on active duty. However, this is well worth the cost. As the Grey knights are able to respond quickly, most times with in hours, of a demonic incursion. Striking swiftly and secretly before the other imperial forces even start to mobilize.

    I will Post offical qoute sometime tonight when i have acess to my codex.

  20. itcheyness July 11, 2013 at 11:08 pm -      #320

    That says nothing about them having most of the Retribution class ships…

  21. wpago July 11, 2013 at 11:16 pm -      #321

    Itchyness

    No it dosent. However, it Retribution ships are usally commanded by highly compente captians and are some of the most powerful ships the IoM has acess to. (Emperor Class is more of a Carieer than anything) Thus falling into the Grey Knights hold.

  22. Neon Lord July 11, 2013 at 11:17 pm -      #322

    “That says nothing about them having most of the Retribution class ships…”
    -
    And that is exactly what I thought. Wpago, you can’t just say that since Grey Knights are able to commandeer any vessel, they automatically fill a Retribution to the brim with themselves. It is a standard Retribution-class Battleship, and Grey Knights are the complete opposite of standard.

  23. wpago July 11, 2013 at 11:21 pm -      #323

    @Neon Lord
    Never said commandeer, so much as the Imperial Navy has to build a new one since the Grey Knights added it to their Fleet. Meaning the Greyknights count them as part of their active fleet and not the Imperial Navy. Anyways, I have given up on the idea of Grey Knights as that would make this a complete stomp. Grey Knights telaporting over into the SSD they would slaughter their way through the whole ship. (Escpially if they have a Grand Master/Mordrick)

  24. itcheyness July 11, 2013 at 11:23 pm -      #324

    “However, it Retribution ships are usally commanded by highly compente captians and are some of the most powerful ships the IoM has acess to. (Emperor Class is more of a Carieer than anything) Thus falling into the Grey Knights hold.”
    -
    Nope.

  25. Neon Lord July 11, 2013 at 11:28 pm -      #325

    The Grey Knights have their own special fleet of Strike Cruisers, and don’t have any Retribution-class Battleships. The Grey Knight Codex quote provides no evidence otherwise.

  26. itcheyness July 11, 2013 at 11:28 pm -      #326

    “I have given up on the idea of Grey Knights as that would make this a complete stomp.”
    -
    Yep, that’s why you’re giving up, it has absolutely nothing to do with you not having any proof…

  27. Glutinous-Bicarbonate July 12, 2013 at 1:08 am -      #327

    Don’t shields need to be down for teleporters to work on other ships? I’m pretty sure it is like Trek and you can’t ‘port onto a shielded vessel?

  28. Aelfinn July 12, 2013 at 1:12 am -      #328

    God, another eaten post. Anyway, I don’t trust those shield specs GA. That’s the power output of the sun, and if you accept the 2 Gigaton figure for Turbolasers, then it would take 45 million shots per second to take them down, and that flies in the face of all canon in SW.

  29. GuardianAngel1911 July 12, 2013 at 1:16 am -      #329

    @Aelfinn
    talk to the book not me.

  30. Aelfinn July 12, 2013 at 1:22 am -      #330

    I’m not saying you’re wrong, just that the book’s canon shouldn’t be accepted. Shit, I’ve got a manual pretty much saying that a suicidal starfighter does more damage than a turbolaser, and that turbolasers have a range of like 100 km, but I wouldn’t want to use that because it doesn’t mesh well with the rest of canon. Neither does the ship having the output of the sun.

  31. OberHeresy July 12, 2013 at 1:32 am -      #331

    Are these turbolasers ever fired in the movie? If so, does the amount of damage they do match up to the amount this book claims they do?

  32. GuardianAngel1911 July 12, 2013 at 1:35 am -      #332

    well the reactor one is also in Revenge of the Sith: Incredible Cross-Sections on page fifteen so that one has two sources supporting it, the shield one only has the one though.
    -
    plus this is the same ship maker that made a reactor allowing the second Death Star to pop a planet every three minutes….

  33. OberHeresy July 12, 2013 at 1:37 am -      #333

    “Ramming and boarding the SSD would probably end badly for the Retribution, it would be shot up by the SSD on approach and when they boarded they would almost certainly be heavily outnumbered by the 280,000 military trained crew. (That’s not counting the possible 38,000 ground troops able to be carried)
    -
    I’m not sure how many crew members the Retribution would have, but it’s likely a majority of those would be press ganged civilians with little to no training who don’t even remotely want to be there…”
    -
    Evidently they can have millions. So…….what were you saying about them being “overwhelmed?”
    -
    Plus, you just add in the odd space marine group, and how ships in WH40K are quite often boarded, meaning they have gear on board to prevent such measures, like shotguns, lasguns, trained military people, ect…….

  34. OberHeresy July 12, 2013 at 1:39 am -      #334

    “well the reactor one is also in Revenge of the Sith: Incredible Cross-Sections on page fifteen so that one has two sources supporting it, the shield one only has the one though.”
    -
    And is this buck-standard?

  35. GuardianAngel1911 July 12, 2013 at 1:42 am -      #335

    well for an Executor class apparently. granted the ships have 4000 turbolasers total half being heavy turbolaser cannons and the other half being regular turbolasers. I don’t know what the power difference between them is but that’s still not all the weaponry.

  36. mack006 July 12, 2013 at 1:44 am -      #336

    I feel as if Aelfinn is being ignored here…
    -
    So the Retribution has MOAR firepower then the Executor but less guns. The SSD also has a wider diversity of weapons it seems and is equipped all over the ship instead of one area
    -
    The Executor has an advantage as they do underside battles as opposed to the Retribution. If the Executor flies above the Retribution then the Retribution won’t be able to use most of it’s weapons. If it did engaged in a broadside battle then the Retribution will find it harder to hit it with it’s torpedos because the Executor is so slim.

  37. Neon Lord July 12, 2013 at 2:04 am -      #337

    “Don’t shields need to be down for teleporters to work on other ships? I’m pretty sure it is like Trek and you can’t ‘port onto a shielded vessel?”
    -
    In 40k, you can teleport past shields and into a ship, seeing as you go through another dimension whilst doing so
    -
    “The Executor has an advantage as they do underside battles as opposed to the Retribution. If the Executor flies above the Retribution then the Retribution won’t be able to use most of it’s weapons. If it did engaged in a broadside battle then the Retribution will find it harder to hit it with it’s torpedos because the Executor is so slim.”
    -
    The Retribution has broadside weapons on each side, which are its primary armament. Torpedoes fire in the fore arc but aren’t meant to be used once it has come into broadside range. The Retribution also has Lance batteries all over the top, which are similar to a broadside in power but in more precise beams. The Lances can fire in all directions except down. The Retribution is basically designed to cruise past another ship and hammer it to hell with everything its got.

  38. itcheyness July 12, 2013 at 10:34 am -      #338

    “Evidently they can have millions. So…….what were you saying about them being “overwhelmed?”
    -
    Plus, you just add in the odd space marine group, and how ships in WH40K are quite often boarded, meaning they have gear on board to prevent such measures, like shotguns, lasguns, trained military people, ect…….”
    -
    Okay:
    1. I’d really like to see some proof about Retribution class battleships having crews running into the millions.
    2. There will be no Space Marines on a standard Retribution class battleship.
    3. I already posted the weapons that most of the crew would have earlier in the thread. It’s mostly shotguns and pistols…
    4. A majority of the crew won’t have any sort of military training, being press ganged civilians and all…

  39. OberHeresy July 12, 2013 at 11:31 am -      #339

    warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Imperial_Navy
    -
    “Imperial Battleships can have crews of anywhere between 25,000 to 3,000,000 men or more depending on the source consulted, including large numbers of Imperial Navy armsmen (marines in modern parlance) to defend against enemy boarding assaults.”
    -
    So…..yeah. They have a frickton of people, seeing as this is the biggest ship in the navy. Plus they also have at the least some trained armsmen, and at most Space Marines.

  40. Namer July 12, 2013 at 11:45 am -      #340

    Aren’t 40k Ships regularly under threat of being invaded by daemons. I’m pretty sure if a crew can handle those sometimes they could fight off mundane stormtroopers.
    -
    Sometimes.

  41. itcheyness July 12, 2013 at 1:08 pm -      #341

    So there are no hard numbers on what constitutes a normal crew size for Imperial Battleships? Oh, the joys of debating WH40K… Also, seriously, stop mentioning Space Marines, they aren’t going to be on board the ship.
    -
    “Aren’t 40k Ships regularly under threat of being invaded by daemons. I’m pretty sure if a crew can handle those sometimes they could fight off mundane stormtroopers.”
    -
    Oh, they would put up a fight against Stormtroopers no doubt, they’d have issues with these guys though.
    -
    starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Zero-G_assault_stormtrooper
    -
    To perform their missions, spacetroopers wore a two-meter tall set of Zero-G armor that interfaced with standard stormtrooper armor. The suit provided a hermetic seal against the vacuum of space and propulsion that allowed spacetroopers to move and fight in space for extended periods.
    -
    In addition, the suit allowed them to carry heavy firepower, turning each trooper into the equivalent of a light tank. Weapon systems included two shoulder mounted, magazine fed grenade launchers able to fire concussion, gas and stun projectiles; a right gauntlet blaster cannon; and a left gauntlet miniature proton torpedo launcher. Each gauntlet also included laser cutters to penetrate ship hulls.

    -
    Those guys are going to fuck things up…

  42. Aelfinn July 12, 2013 at 3:10 pm -      #342

    The slimness of the SSD is being overstated. While it certainly looks comparatively slim, that ship is 19 kilometers long.
    -
    images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090109113054/starwars/images/4/49/Executor_Imperator_comparison.jpg
    -
    Someone can hold a ruler up to that if they want, but that certainly looks like a multi-kilometer-high profile. With the Retribution having a length purportedly half that of the SSD according to L-W, the Retribution is fighting on a scale that should make the SSD a relatively “normal” target.

  43. Deus Ex Machina July 13, 2013 at 1:52 am -      #343

    So I see that the high-end calcs are being used by the Star Wars side, but we are using mid-end calcs for the 40k side? This doesn’t strike you as a bit off?

    Assuming we use the high-end calcs for the Retribution than the match plays out quite differently than some think. I will provide the source for my claims next to said claims, and if you want the specific quotation just ask. And yes, these are equal in validity to the low-end because of the canon policy, but if we are using high-end for one side we should be using high-end for the other.

    Firepower of singular heavy weapons like Lances are rated in the petatons, able to destroy continents with ease (many sources), and on one occasion said to be able to atomize continents as well (Nemesis). Other feats for the heavy guns include vaporizing oceans for heavy plasma cannons (Nemesis), or blasting through an area that is a minimum of several kilometers across all the way down to the mantle (Salvation’s Reach). The list goes on and on. And these are simply the feats, if we scale firepower of different ships to other races or what characters say the firepower jumps up orders of magnitude (Necrons in Nightbringer for example). However I’m not advocating this, as it can be pretty silly.

    Next up are shields. High-end shields can take salvo after salvo of the above mentioned weapons (anything involving fleet actions where a Retribution class or a vessel of similar tonnage is employed. I could find something if you would like, such as the fleet battles in Soul Hunter), have multiple layers (Battlefleet Gothic among others), and can replenish a layer within a minute (Soul Hunter), which means if you can’t kill the ship or take out the shields in that minute you have to contend with a fully shielded vessel again. And on vessels of this size you would have to breach multiple layers in the 60 seconds before the previously brought down layer is up again. And we have the Terminus Est taking multiple nova cannon shots and living, 2 in fact (Cadian Blood), though the Terminus Est is a Chaos vessel and not a Retribution, but their tonnage is similar and they are roughly the same size, so the discrepancy wouldn’t be anything major.

    Oh, and nova cannons scale up to being able to one shot planets (One of the Rogue Traders maybe, I can get the quote of you would like) (not mass scatter, but kill everything on them for the explosive variant, or swallow an area thousand of kilometers around the detonation for the singularity versions).

    Speed. High-end has them moving approximately .75c (Sabbat Martyr and Flight of the Eisenstein I believe) or faster (Know No Fear), with accelerations in the tens of thousands of gees (Nemesis,some of the Dawn of War novels, Know No Fear, and I’m sure I could dig up more). However a Retribution is not pulling any high speed turns, though I’m fairly sure the SSD isn’t either.

    Range. The absolute maximum range for a ship battle is said to be shooting from one side of a solar system to the next, this would imply massively FTL weapons (which is silly, but not unsupported) their weapons to be self guided (including lances, and while the non lance weapons being guided isn’t so silly, the lance part makes it silly). Ergo I tend to ignore that (from Deus Sanguinius) and go with the other high-end of millions of kilometers. This one has multiple showings of such ranges, and it makes sense. (Salvation’s Reach for one).

    Fighter complement. Imperial fighter craft have speeds and accelerations faster than the capital ships they launch from (anything with fighters), are capable of damaging capital ships in large numbers, as well as having enough energy generation to explode and create 80km explosions in space (One of the Gaunt’s Ghosts novels I think, I can check if requested to do so), meaning they can pump some serious firepower into their guns. At least in the megatons for the bomb payloads. They can also take hits from some of the lighter weapons on similar craft, including heavy lascannons and such. They are quite a bit superior to Imperial fighters, esp TIE Fighters.

    Crew. I varies quite a bit, from tens.of thousands to hundreds of thousands, however it is irrelevant as they aren’t going to try to board the SSD, and they aren’t getting boarded.

    I think that should do, anyways, to the actual fight… Well, what can I say, the Retribution shoots at the SSD until it dies? That is pretty much what will happen.

  44. Deus Ex Machina July 13, 2013 at 1:56 am -      #344

    Totally forgot, the shields with completely differently from novel to novel, sometimes they shunt energy into the Warp (Deliverance Lost), sometimes they act as antimatter screens (Know No Fear), etc. But they stop everything harmful that travels over a certain speed, for example a fighter matching speed with the ship can get through, where a barrage of shells will not.

  45. Neon Lord July 13, 2013 at 2:21 am -      #345

    Thanks for that Deus. I can only do so much without the novels, which you evidently have.
    -
    BFG rulebook simply states the Void Shields to be bubbles of energy btw, and allow torpedoes to get through (although there are defence turrets to shoot them down).

  46. Neon Lord July 13, 2013 at 2:36 am -      #346

    Extra info:
    -
    Fury Interceptors are said to be twice the size of an Thunderbolt Fighter (RT: Battlefleet Koronus)
    -
    “Slightly smaller than an assault boat, Starhawk-class bombers are slower and less armoured. Instead of troops, they carry a payload of plasma bombs, armour-piercing missiles, and (in some cases) torpedoes. The Calixis-pattern has forward racks for up to 10 large anti-ship missiles with powerful krak warheads, and mid-bays containing multiple bomb-firing cylinders. Starhawks launch volleys of missiles at precise targets on an enemy ship, then close and make “bombing runs” on the hull, pumping out flurries of plasma warheads. Crews of ten to fifteen man these weapons as well as less-potent armaments designed for defence against starfighters and incoming missiles. Like the Fury interceptor that often accompanies it, the Starhawk has cramped living quarters that allow these spacecraft to be used for extended assignments. Starhawk bombers are typically organised into squadrons of ten craft.” – RT: Battlefleet Koronus
    -
    They carry 10 anti-ship missiles in a forward rack, with rear bays containing 40 plasma bombs. They are armed with 1 twin-linked Lascannon, two twin-linked long-barrelled Multi-laser turrets, and two twin-linked Heavy Bolter Turrets.

  47. Sauroposeidon July 13, 2013 at 4:05 am -      #347

    I think the match is pretty solidly in favor of the SSD with the revelation that the Retribution-Class does not carry much in the way of fighters. Minimum load out is 144 support craft, with “thousands” as a potential option. There’s no way the Retribution’s own interceptor screen can stop that many from getting in to pick it apart.. and once they’re in, there’s virtually no stopping them. It’s all over. Even if the Executor wasn’t already packing superior fire power and shields and engines and FTL, this is the stake through the heart. The superior interceptors/bombers/ect craft will always, always, always win the match.

  48. Sauroposeidon July 13, 2013 at 4:20 am -      #348

    “So I see that the high-end calcs are being used by the Star Wars side, but we are using mid-end calcs for the 40k side? This doesn’t strike you as a bit off?”
    -
    Er, because if we go by the canon numbers then Star Wars weapons and shields stop making any sense at all, with shields apparently having the same power output of a fucking sun. So we go by what seems to be accurate, since SW has a history of being.. off.. while 40k is about as consistent as a saturday morning cartoon.. so. what? We go with the highest outliers? Why not the lowest? We dropped potential shield strength for the SSD rather significantly, apparently.
    -
    That’s why, though. In case you missed the point where Aelfinn said “this is total nonsense, we should go with this instead.”

  49. mack006 July 13, 2013 at 6:00 am -      #349

    Though the Retribution does not have much fighters it has better weapons so if the Retribution manages to hit the Executor with just one of its weapons then it might spell doom for the ship. It all ends up to who destroys who first with their advantages and how to overcome their disadvantages. The Retribution’s void shields should hold the fighters for sometime before it blows the Executor up to smithereens.

  50. Slayer July 13, 2013 at 7:04 am -      #350

    Deus has returned?
    -
    Welcome back man. Good to see some of our better posters still here

  51. mack006 July 13, 2013 at 8:33 am -      #351

    Lol this battle was also debated in Spacebattles as well
    forums.spacebattles.com/threads/retribution-class-battleship-vs-executor.121888/
    -
    Here is a good quote from a debater called Vowelless:
    -
    “My impression is that the Executor-class was, to a large extent, intended as a psychological weapon: because it was, at the time of the class’ creation, probably the largest true warship in the galaxy (not including battle stations like the Death Star), it was hoped that enemies would be intimidated into retreat or surrender, rather than actually trying to fight the damn thing. A little bit like some of the excessively large war machines built by the Russians, it was probably valued more for its psychological impact than for its actual combat abilities. On the same note, the Executor-class is one of the first vessels in its tonnage-range in the Starwars galaxy: it’s probably reasonable to assume that the Empire hasn’t got the construction of such large-scale vessels refined to a very fine art yet.
    -
    With this in mind, it’s probably reasonable to assume that the Executor-class, while formidable, is probably not quite as powerful as its sheer bulk would otherwise suggest.”
    -
    So the Executor was just used to scare the rebels into retreating. I mean it is more then twice the size of the Retribution yet it still struggles to defeat it. The REAL super star destroyer according to my view is the Eclipse class destroyer.

  52. Deus Ex Machina July 13, 2013 at 11:26 am -      #352

    @Neon Lord
    .
    Not a problem. Yeah the void shields tend to be pretty consistently round in nature, though their method of stopping incoming fire varies between sources.
    .
    @Sauroposeidon
    .
    “I think the match is pretty solidly in favor of the SSD with the revelation that the Retribution-Class does not carry much in the way of fighters. Minimum load out is 144 support craft, with “thousands” as a potential option. There’s no way the Retribution’s own interceptor screen can stop that many from getting in to pick it apart.. and once they’re in, there’s virtually no stopping them. It’s all over. ”
    .
    The fighters are going to be absolutely useless in this match. More so for the SSD, but still useless for the Retribution, unless they ram the bridge of the SSD. Hell, they won’t even be able to get through the Retributions point defense weapons with more than one or two ships anyway. Bear in mind the point defense consists of hundreds of turrets filling the Space around the ship with explosions. Literally the whole area of space a couple of kilometers from the ship. TIE Fighters could be destroyed if you breathed on them too hard, these matter guns will annihilate them.
    .
    “Er, because if we go by the canon numbers then Star Wars weapons and shields stop making any sense at all, with shields apparently having the same power output of a fucking sun. So we go by what seems to be accurate, since SW has a history of being.. off.. while 40k is about as consistent as a saturday morning cartoon.. so. what? We go with the highest outliers? Why not the lowest? We dropped potential shield strength for the SSD rather significantly, apparently.
    -
    That’s why, though. In case you missed the point where Aelfinn said “this is total nonsense, we should go with this instead.””
    .
    You realize that using all that theoretical power would leave them with no hypermatter to move the ship right? Or life support? If they pumped ask the energy into their guns, it has a good chance of destroying the ship itself. And taking that literally is kind me taking every author ever saying ships have stars in their generator rooms, or the energy of a thousand stars. It is ludicrous, but if we are accepting hyperbole then why not?
    .
    “It’s all over. Even if the Executor wasn’t already packing superior fire power ”
    .
    Um, it isn’t? My entire post was showing that that just isn’t the case. Sure it has more guns (as opposed to Battleship class ships having an unknown number of hundreds or thousands of guns) but the guns are far less powerful than the Retribution’s guns. You saw Orpheus’s calcs using ICS numbers right?
    .
    “shields”
    .
    Again, not quite.
    .
    “engines”
    .
    Nope.
    .
    “FTL”
    .
    Only if this wasn’t high-end Retribution. High-end speeds that aren’t arriving before you left is hundreds of thousands of light-years in a matter of hours (Adeptus Titanicus). Though, I believe the fastest Star Wars hyperdrive example is when Sidious

  53. Deus Ex Machina July 13, 2013 at 11:28 am -      #353

    Whoops, posted on accident…continuing.
    .
    Flies to pick up Anakin at Mustafar, though I don’t remember how it compares to the AT feat. I’m not sure why you bright up FTL though, it is irrelevant in this match.

  54. Deus Ex Machina July 13, 2013 at 11:29 am -      #354

    @Slayer thank you kind sir,I hope that it can keep me interested enough to stay.

  55. GuardianAngel1911 July 14, 2013 at 2:16 pm -      #355

    Dreadnaughts like the Executor had existed a while, not as big but the Executor was the latest in a long line of massive ships with enough firepower no one would want to fight it, they didn’t ignore function though they were making a warship that would back up what it was supposed to be able to do.
    -
    The Admirals thought more smaller ships were better for patrolling the galaxy but Palpatine started to put that money in the Death Star but they said they’d take the ships instead.
    -
    The Executor (the flagship of Vader) was the first made.

  56. GuardianAngel1911 July 14, 2013 at 2:47 pm -      #356

    Personally I consider World Devastator era peak, when they had the Devastators Galaxy Gun and Palpatine and his clones.
    But they also had the guy who designed the Death Stars and such during that time. Two years is a lot of time to rebuild and build period.

  57. GuardianAngel1911 July 14, 2013 at 2:49 pm -      #357

    wrong thread for that one.

  58. Sauroposeidon July 14, 2013 at 2:49 pm -      #358

    “The fighters are going to be absolutely useless in this match. More so for the SSD, but still useless for the Retribution, unless they ram the bridge of the SSD. Hell, they won’t even be able to get through the Retributions point defense weapons with more than one or two ships anyway. Bear in mind the point defense consists of hundreds of turrets filling the Space around the ship with explosions. Literally the whole area of space a couple of kilometers from the ship. TIE Fighters could be destroyed if you breathed on them too hard, these matter guns will annihilate them.”
    -
    Point defense weapons are almost useless. Big ships go down to attack craft all the time. I don’t know who taught you naval combat, but carriers play a very important role. The carrier always beats the battleship.
    -
    To give you an idea. The Yamato had 165 flak multi-barrel flak guns. This did not save it from our Avenger Bombers, which can’t even hit 300 miles per hour. Point Defenses DO NOT WORK.
    -
    Executors don’t only field TIE Fighters. They have a wide number of TIE craft available to them, including Avengers, Defenders, and the deadly Droid models.
    -
    If the SSD can get its support craft through the Retribution’s interceptors, the the Retribution will be picked apart. Sure there will be losses, but traditionally PDW’s are so useless as to almost not even be there. We can expect maybe 50 losses? MAYBE.
    -
    Only bombers, which have to fly straight at a set altitude, are really vulnerable to flak guns.
    -
    “You realize that using all that theoretical power would leave them with no hypermatter to move the ship right? Or life support? If they pumped ask the energy into their guns, it has a good chance of destroying the ship itself. And taking that literally is kind me taking every author ever saying ships have stars in their generator rooms, or the energy of a thousand stars. It is ludicrous, but if we are accepting hyperbole then why not?”
    -
    Because we’re not accepting hyperbole.. although Imperial Star Destroyers do use a sun. However, it’s obviously not all directed to shields. Which is why we aren’t using dumb shit like that. That’s just to explain the unfairness you feel is going on here. They’re just trying to find a way to “keep things real.”
    -
    “Um, it isn’t? My entire post was showing that that just isn’t the case. Sure it has more guns (as opposed to Battleship class ships having an unknown number of hundreds or thousands of guns) but the guns are far less powerful than the Retribution’s guns. You saw Orpheus’s calcs using ICS numbers right?”
    -
    No you kind of threw stuff out there.
    -
    I don’t read anything involving the ICS because apparently star destroyers might as well be fucking gurren lagann and shoot through planets. I’ve only read some of the more recent posts. Notably, Aelfinn’s.
    -
    It seems to me that the Executor is the superior ship. We already know Star Wars ships are WAAAAY faster than their IoM equivalents. Its also just armed with too many guns.
    -
    FTL is relevant if you want to put distance between yourself and your target. Namely if the SSD just wants to hop away a planet or two’s distance and then dump all of its bombers.
    -
    Considering SSD’s have apparently destroyed each other through dumping fighters/bombers on each other before, I think it’s safe to say that one could bring down the IoM ship with attack craft.
    -
    Your lack of faith in their ability does not change history. Does not change performance records.

  59. Aelfinn July 14, 2013 at 2:57 pm -      #359

    Considering TIE fighters are generally less durable and less powerful than the fighters in the IoM, and that they simply won’t put out enough damage to hurt the Retribution in any way, I don’t see them doing much. It’s like bi-planes attacking a modern-day battleship.

  60. GuardianAngel1911 July 14, 2013 at 3:01 pm -      #360

    actually it depends on what kinds of Tie Fighters are on the ship, later models which would be considered current Tie Fighter incarnations were modified to have shields and hyperdrives.

  61. Sauroposeidon July 14, 2013 at 4:13 pm -      #361

    There are anti-ship TIE’s, Aelfinn. Or they could just field TIE Phantoms which would be utterly undetectable and require aiming with the naked eye. And again, I distinctly recall reading TIE/D’s bringing down. I think it was a battle involving Pellaeon. Anyone able to find that instance?
    -
    Executor class starships can also use cloaking devices. Just thought I’d bring that up.

  62. Aelfinn July 14, 2013 at 4:20 pm -      #362

    “There are anti-ship TIE’s,”
    -
    That doesn’t mean they’d work well against this particular ship though. That’s like saying because a rifle was anti-tank in WW2, it can also work as an anti-tank rifle now.
    -
    “Or they could just field TIE Phantoms which would be utterly undetectable and require aiming with the naked eye.”
    -
    The Executor generally didn’t have them. At least, they would have been useful in the Battle of Endor.

  63. GuardianAngel1911 July 14, 2013 at 4:24 pm -      #363

    Okay question is this An Executor or The Executor. Because The Executor was an Executor that was called Executor because…thats what Vader called it and it was the first one.

  64. Sauroposeidon July 14, 2013 at 4:28 pm -      #364

    Unless this is THE Executor, then they are available. If it is that one particular Executor-class ship then no, it did not have them.
    -
    Considering attack craft are capable of bringing down capital class ships, and IoM and GE ships are roughly on par with each other, we can extrapolate that they are capable of bringing down IoM ships.
    -
    That’s just logic.

  65. Sauroposeidon July 14, 2013 at 4:31 pm -      #365

    isn’t* not is.. Sorry.

  66. Aelfinn July 14, 2013 at 4:39 pm -      #366

    ” IoM and GE ships are roughly on par with each other”
    -
    Not really. One torpedo salvo from effectively any IoM ship matches all of the Executor’s guns firing at once, and that’s mid-range for IoM and high-end for GE. Battleships for the IoM can take these torpedo salvos/broadsides for long periods of time. Furthermore, that’s not even getting into Deus Ex Machina’s statement, let alone any possible Nova Cannon for the Retribution, which ends this fight immediately.

  67. GuardianAngel1911 July 14, 2013 at 4:52 pm -      #367

    I did more research into those shield numbers I posted earlier, apparently an Executor class doesn’t have a single Shield Generator, it has close to a dozen spread throughout the ship working together and creating a stronger shield than would normally be possible.

  68. Sauroposeidon July 14, 2013 at 5:54 pm -      #368

    “Not really. One torpedo salvo from effectively any IoM ship matches all of the Executor’s guns firing at once, and that’s mid-range for IoM and high-end for GE.”
    -
    Wait a second…something seems fishy here..
    -
    The torpedos alone match the executor’s turbolasers’ DPS? This seems off, significantly, considering an Executor is worth something like 100 imperial star destroyers…
    -
    Maybe 1 torpedo salvo is equal to the guns firing once..I could believe that.. but as I recall it takes a loooong time for IoM ships to reload their weapons and fire again… and GE Turbo Lasers fire off like once every second or two.
    -
    images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120425033218/starwars/images/thumb/8/8f/WrathBDZ-EGTW.jpg/281px-WrathBDZ-EGTW.jpg
    -
    I think we’ve also concluded that the IoM ship gets no nova cannon. If it does, I would venture to say that this super star destroyer gets a super laser to even things up.
    -
    Beyond this, you go on like the Retribution out ranges the Executor.. but it doe snot. The Retribution relies on short range weapons to get the job done. Most Star Destroyers rely on their Ion Cannons, but the Executor does not, and if it did get in range to use them then the match also pretty much ends right there. Having a hundred or so Ion Cannons unloaded on a ship vulnerable to those sorts of attacks like the Retribution would instantly put it out of commission. Assuming it didn’t get shredded by the TIE’s already.. you can poop on them as much as you want, the fact that they get the job done does not get altered by this.

  69. GuardianAngel1911 July 14, 2013 at 5:57 pm -      #369

    how fast are the fighters the Retribution has?

  70. GuardianAngel1911 July 14, 2013 at 6:05 pm -      #370

    Also how fast would this kind of engine be since it’s what a Standard Tie Fighter has, not even the more advanced faster ones that are current just the original engine.
    “Like all ion engines, Sienar’s design used microparticle accelerators to excite ionized gas until it was moving at a substantial fraction of the speed of light, then blast it out of painstakingly calibrated rear vents. But the SIE-TIE was the most precisely manufactured propulsion system in galactic history: efficient, lightweight, and containing neither moving parts nor high-temperature components”
    I mean if I understand physics right wouldn’t the ship also be moving at a fraction of the speed of light due to the particles shooting out of them at said speed? And the more current and advanced models are even faster.

  71. Sauroposeidon July 14, 2013 at 6:07 pm -      #371

    Guardian, TIE acceleration is given on their respective wookieepedia pages. They are blindingly fast (although not great turners, it seems). It’s measured in G’s.

  72. GuardianAngel1911 July 14, 2013 at 6:14 pm -      #372

    @Sauro
    my bad, was reading through the Guide to Warfare and found that quote so thought I’d bring it up.
    -
    so 4,100 G’s for a standard TIE fighter,
    4,240 G or 21 MGLT/second for TIE interceptors
    4,220 G for Defenders.
    I…honestly don’t know how fast that is though.

  73. Aelfinn July 14, 2013 at 7:04 pm -      #373

    “Maybe 1 torpedo salvo is equal to the guns firing once.”
    -
    That’s what I said. 6 torpedoes from the retribution is equal (actually a smidge less) to 4000 turbolaser blasts from the SSD. Well, it’s equal to 3600 Turbolaser blasts, but you see my point.
    -
    “Beyond this, you go on like the Retribution out ranges the Executor.. but it doe snot. The Retribution relies on short range weapons to get the job done”
    -
    Actually, Deus Ex Machina mentions Imperial ships fighting at millions of kilometers, while I’ve got the New Essential Guide to Weapons and Technology putting on turbolasers a max range of 100 km and an optimum range of 15 km. Low-end, sure, but considering the strategy in Revenge of the Sith was “fly right next to them and use a broadside”, it makes sense there. Unless, of course, there are other showings…?

    “I mean if I understand physics right wouldn’t the ship also be moving at a fraction of the speed of light due to the particles shooting out of them at said speed?”
    -
    Well, we have ion engines now, and they don’t make stuff move very fast. While the particles are very fast, they also have a very, very low mass, which means the total push given to the object isn’t very high. This is fiction, but the highest speed remains unclear.
    -
    “so 4,100 G’s for a standard TIE fighter,
    4,240 G or 21 MGLT/second for TIE interceptors
    4,220 G for Defenders.
    I…honestly don’t know how fast that is though.”
    -
    That’s because G’s is a unit of acceleration: 9.8 m/s/s. Those numbers would demonstrate how quickly the fighters would pick up speed, but not the actual speed itself. Even so, I highly doubt those numbers, considering 10 G’s is enough to kill a person. The only explanation I can think of is that they accelerate very quickly (as in, fractions of a second) to their top speed. But I have no idea what that top speed is.

  74. GuardianAngel1911 July 14, 2013 at 7:18 pm -      #374

    just because we don’t have inertial dampners to stop the damage doesn’t mean Star Wars wouldn’t. We also don’t stick our Astronauts in ships with a vacuum in them with life support only in their suits. It’s likely the armored suit’s life support includes equipment to survive the high speeds.

  75. Sauroposeidon July 14, 2013 at 7:52 pm -      #375

    “but considering the strategy in Revenge of the Sith was “fly right next to them and use a broadsid”
    -
    Er, you know it was the Seperatists, not the Republic, who decided the range of that match, right? The Seps hyperspaced in on top of the fleet to catch them off guard. This also has the added benefit of the vulture droids being able to fight longer. Their star fighters use solid state fuel with a very limited flight time.
    -
    Using the battle of coruscant as a standard is a bad idea because of the intent of the seperatists.
    -
    Didn’t someone bring up that Executors strike from beyond visual range? Not sure how you do that in space but.. whatever..

  76. GuardianAngel1911 July 14, 2013 at 7:59 pm -      #376

    I mentioned the Vong War having an SD fire from outside of visual range of a Vong Worldship.

  77. Sauroposeidon July 14, 2013 at 8:15 pm -      #377

    Also, what level of missile weaponry are we allowing the ship? Because if we’re letting them field baradium missiles.. it’s over.

  78. Deus Ex Machina July 15, 2013 at 1:56 pm -      #378

    Great, my whole post was deleted… Let’s try again.
    .
    “Point defense weapons are almost useless. Big ships go down to attack craft all the time. I don’t know who taught you naval combat, but carriers play a very important role. The carrier always beats the battleship.
    -
    To give you an idea. The Yamato had 165 flak multi-barrel flak guns. This did not save it from our Avenger Bombers, which can’t even hit 300 miles per hour. Point Defenses DO NOT WORK.”
    .
    …WW2 battleships /= 40k Battleships. Just because point defense works one way somewhere does not mean it works that way everywhere. And battleships would blow the shift out of carriers within range. Your entire point is…. pointless.
    .
    “Executors don’t only field TIE Fighters. They have a wide number of TIE craft available to them, including Avengers, Defenders, and the deadly Droid models.
    -
    If the SSD can get its support craft through the Retribution’s interceptors, the the Retribution will be picked apart. Sure there will be losses, but traditionally PDW’s are so useless as to almost not even be there. We can expect maybe 50 losses? MAYBE.”
    .
    Look, unless you can prove that any of this can actually harm the battleship (or even get through the PD) you are just blowing hot air. Which doesn’t surprise me considering how you just like to argue against 40k.
    .
    “Because we’re not accepting hyperbole.. although Imperial Star Destroyers do use a sun. However, it’s obviously not all directed to shields. Which is why we aren’t using dumb shit like that. That’s just to explain the unfairness you feel is going on here. They’re just trying to find a way to “keep things real.””
    .
    I get that, though they don’t use actual stars in their ships.
    .
    “No you kind of threw stuff out there.”
    .
    If you are simply going to sit in here spouting “40k loses!11!1!” And not even try to have a good debate, or even read what other posters post, then why are you even in this thread? I very clearly outlined how the Retribution is superior to the SSD and will win.
    .
    “It seems to me that the Executor is the superior ship. We already know Star Wars ships are WAAAAY faster than their IoM equivalents. Its also just armed with too many guns.
    -
    FTL is relevant if you want to put distance between yourself and your target. Namely if the SSD just wants to hop away a planet or two’s distance and then dump all of its bombers.
    -
    Considering SSD’s have apparently destroyed each other through dumping fighters/bombers on each other before, I think it’s safe to say that one could bring down the IoM ship with attack craft.
    -
    Your lack of faith in their ability does not change history. Does not change performance records.”
    .
    It seems to me you need to learn how to debate properly instead of treating your opinions as fact.
    .
    So unless you stop spouting opinions and provide some evidence for your claims you aren’t going to make any progress. It is pretty clear that the Retribution wins.

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