Retribution Class Battleship Vs Super Star Destroyer

Retribution Class Battleship (Warhammer 40K) Vs Super Star Destroyer (Star Wars)

Fantastic fight we have on our hands here. I confess to not knowing as much about the Warhammer vessel as I do about the Super Star Destroyer. So, I’ll leave it up to those can speak intelligently on this matter.

Which craft would win?

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378 Comments on "Retribution Class Battleship Vs Super Star Destroyer"

  1. Marine Trooper January 8, 2011 at 8:32 pm -      #201

    this is a good match here and i love both SW and WH.

  2. FisherKing April 16, 2011 at 2:42 pm -      #202

    Considering that all Battleships are Longer than 5km, and even though the retribution class battleship isn’t listed in Battlefleet koronus, I’m more than willing to bet that the Retribution class battleship is equal to or longer than 5km in length. A Super Star Destroyer is, according to the New Essential Guide to Vehicles and Vessels, an astonishing 12,800 meters long more than double the size of the retribution class Battleship.

    I still feel that the Retribution can take this fight. Depending on it’s set up It should be able to hammer the SSD with it’s macrobatteries before using a few lance strikes to strike critical components on the SSD, while maintaining it’s Void Shields.

  3. Locutus April 25, 2011 at 12:26 pm -      #203

    “I’m more than willing to bet that the Retribution class battleship is equal to or longer than 5km in length”

    Battleships are much longer than 5 km. Cruisers are stated to be 5 km long while Grand Cruisers are over 7 km. Battleships are probably between 8-10 km long.

    Dictator-class Cruiser
    Dimensions: 5.1 km long, 0.8 km abeam at fins approx.
    Mass: 29 megatonnes approx.
    Crew: 85,000 crew, 15,000 pilots and support personnel, approx.”
    - Rogue Trader: Battlefleet Koronus, Pg. 24

    Avenger-class Grand Cruiser
    Dimensions: 7.5 km long, 1.8 km abeam at fins approx.
    Mass: 40 megatonnes approx.
    Crew: 141,000 crew, approx.
    - Rogue Trader: Battlefleet Koronus, Pg. 20

  4. farfromit July 18, 2011 at 12:27 pm -      #204

    Rogue Trader: Battlefleet Koronus lol

    Have you noticed how they are trying to single handedly retcon 40k firepower? Very, insistant and even consistant on kilotn-megaton range weaponr for 40K.

    Though besides the 610 gigaton statment, every instance of stated firepower in 40K seems to be gigajoules, terajoules, terrawatts, pettawatts, and kilotons These words are repeated throughut BFG, Rouge trader+ rouge trader related books.

    The feats in BFG are suggestive of gigatons.. while rouge traders are kilotn to megaton.

  5. chuckforest July 24, 2011 at 1:22 am -      #205

    RAMMING SPEED!1!

  6. farfromit August 11, 2011 at 8:26 pm -      #206

    “RAMMING SPEED!1!” = gigatons of kinetic energy (given 30 minutes acceleration*multi-megatonne mass)  

  7. ZomB September 4, 2011 at 2:44 am -      #207

    “400,000 terajoules, or just under 10 gigatons.”

    Okay, I think L-W is wrong here, I came up with just under 100 Megatons… nowhere near 10 Gigatons.  It’ll take me some time to figure out the exact effect that has on the rest of the calculations in that post.

    In the meantime, can someone make sure I wasn’t wrong? Also I didn’t look through the whole thread to see if someone has already debunked L-W’s numbers instead skimming over it stopping to read only the calcs I noticed. So if someone did, oops.

  8. Deus Ex Machina September 4, 2011 at 3:10 am -      #208

    @farfromit I have no idea why you have a hard on for low-end calcs…and Rogue Trader is the lowest of the low (for certain things) like mass, acceleration, etc…

    As we have the seconds to accelerate from 0 to .25c, .75c combat speeds etc. 

    And it depends on the actual ship as most ships in 40k are massively different.

    @ZomB what? 

  9. ZomB September 4, 2011 at 3:13 am -      #209

    @Deus Ex Machina

    I was pointing out a flaw I found in L-W’s calcs at the beginning of this debate.

  10. Deus Ex Machina September 4, 2011 at 3:31 am -      #210

    Sounds good.

  11. farfromit September 11, 2011 at 6:19 am -      #211

    @DeusExMachina
    I dont, i just like to use official statistics, unless they havnt been consistantly shown to be wrong by other sources… for example there are highend feats for accelerations such as seconds to reach sizeible fractions of light speed… but its also said in many sources that it can takje days/weeks to move to planets within a system… i believe it was even mentioned in space marine the game….

    The use of mass reduction and/or very light very strong sci fi materials resulting in multi-megaton ships does not sound unreasonable to me.

    And on firepower i don not take low end, as the official figures are consitantly kilotons (except for the 610 gigaton missiles), and i belive the firepower of ship to ship weapons to be consistantly in the gigatons (which i do not consider to be ‘low end’)

  12. farfromit September 11, 2011 at 6:25 am -      #212

    “Have you noticed how they are trying to single handedly retcon 40k firepower? Very, insistant and even consistant on kilotn-megaton range weaponr for 40K.
    Though besides the 610 gigaton statment, every instance of stated firepower in 40K seems to be gigajoules, terajoules, terrawatts, pettawatts, and kilotons These words are repeated throughut BFG, Rouge trader+ rouge trader related books. ”

    On my earlier post, this what not to display my opinion on what the firepower of 40k ships is, but rather what the official figures tend to be, of which i posted due to having only recently discovered how consistant/insistant rouge trader is on the low end figures.

  13. itcheyness October 9, 2011 at 3:42 pm -      #213

    If it comes down to boarding I am pretty sure the SSD takes it, Spacetroopers will tear through anything short of Space Marines in boarding operations and the majority of the Retribution’s defenders are just press-ganged civilians with no training and crap weapons.

    In an actual space engagement though I am not sure who wins.

  14. Deus Ex Machina October 9, 2011 at 4:17 pm -      #214

    @itcheyness thats where your wrong, the Retribution has (high end) millions of crew members, low end 10′s of thousands, these have some crazy weapons, as well as the ships insides can rearrange themselves to help the defenders, add in their weapos are way more effective than Stormtroopers, as well as competence and you have a mean boarding team.

    Unfortunately the Space situation is debatable as there are so many calcs for both sides, in fact if we used hid wanktastically low-end for 40k ships and the actual movie levels of firepower shown the battle would be more interesting.

  15. itcheyness October 9, 2011 at 4:40 pm -      #215

    When have imperial vessels ever rearranged their insides?

    Also what do you mean by crazy weapons?

    The only weapons the main crew has that I have ever heard (I could be wrong though) comes from a short story in Let the Galaxy Burn

    “It was bad enough to be caught up in a titanic duel between warships but now the enemy was coming to strike at them face to face, all the time with the prospect of being crushed like an insect by the pulverising contest going on outside. Isiah rapidly passed out weapons from an arms locker: blades, shock mauls, stubby autopistols and chunky shotguns.” P.349

    I know that vessels also carry a security troop complements in carapace armor, but I don’t think it would be able to deal with Spacetroopers.

  16. Deus Ex Machina October 9, 2011 at 4:57 pm -      #216

    Rearranging= Not extreme rearrangement, here you go. Also on what weapons the crew will have depends on who controls the ship, but they are almost certainly in possession of rare wepaons like executioner rounds on something like a Retribution.

    “Automated defence turrets emerged from the battle-barge’s decks and autocannons began to scream, shredding the armour of several Word Bearers, misting the air with blood. More Dreadclaws struck home, filling the air with acrid black smoke as they cut through the hull plating of the battle-barge to disgorge their Coteries upon the enemy. Within moments, the silence of the lower deck corridors had erupted into roars and screams of pain, the deafening whine of autocannons and the deeper thump of bolters, as well as the painful grind of chainaxe and sword carving bone and armour. Word Bearers bellowed prayers and passages from their holy scripture. Khalaxis snarled as his enhanced hearing picked up the shouts of White Consuls sergeants as they barked their orders. From the deck floor rose thick armoured barriers, angled shields of dense ceramite, adamantium and rockcrete designed to aid in repelling boarding actions. Through the smoke, Kol Badar saw armoured figures in white power armour taking up positions behind these barricades, dropping down behind them and hefting bolters up, bring them to bear on the invaders. In a microsecond he had noted their number and position, and as he hacked the head from the shoulders of another hapless Chapter serf, he registered an enemy Devastator squad moving up to join the defence, hauling their servo-balanced heavy weapons. Their sergeant ducked down behind a barricade and pointed in Khalaxis’ direction as the last of the Chapter serfs were cut down, and the four heavy bolter-toting Space Marines accompanying him set their feet wide, bringing their immense weapons to bear.

    Waves of bolter fire struck the advancing Terminators, and though few of his warriors fell to the unrelenting swathe of fire, it was slowing their progress. The enemy fell back before them, taking cover behind barricades that rose from the corridor floor. As the Word Bearers advanced, the barriers retracted, denying the XVII Legion their cover. Kol Badar cared not. The thick ceramite and adamantium plating of the Anointed’s Terminator armour could withstand easily as much incoming fire as the barricades themselves.”
    Pgs.51-56 Dark Creed

    Crazy weapons I mean plasma weapons, executioner rounds (and other exotic ammunition) alien weapons, etc.

    They will tear right through Stormtroopers armor even with crappy shotguns.

  17. itcheyness October 9, 2011 at 5:49 pm -      #217

    I notice that that is a battlebarge, do you have anything for an Imperial Naval vessel? I am only asking because battlebarges are usually more advanced than Imperial Navy vessels. There was also no mention of anything like that in Soul Hunter when the Night Lords were storming an Avenger Class Grand Cruiser.

    I am not sure what class of vessel my excerpt took place on, but it was called the Retribution and it killed a Repulsive Class Grand cruiser pretty easily so whatever it was it was pretty big.

  18. itcheyness October 9, 2011 at 7:07 pm -      #218

    Also do you have a quote for the possibly millions of crewmen for a Retribution?

    According to Soul Hunter an Avenger class has 25000 with a majority of them being slaves so a Retribution class would have to be a lot bigger to house that many people.

  19. Deus Ex Machina October 9, 2011 at 7:42 pm -      #219

    Again it is Author’s Fiat, however here you go.

    I can’t really quote it but on Pg.146 of the 5th Edition Rulebook it says the ship the Emperor’s Faithful was carrying 5,000,000 guardsmen and 200,000 men of the Navy.

    Also, Retributions aren’t all that different from Battle Barges, with the main difference being Barges are made to carry fighters and deploy marines, Retributions are made for blastin shit.

  20. Gluttonous-Behemoth October 9, 2011 at 7:48 pm -      #220

    Imagine if Imperial scouts found our world, and that we were just a lost colony; then the first thing we see is an Imperial Warship.

    Bricks would be shat.

  21. Deus Ex Machina October 9, 2011 at 7:52 pm -      #221

    We wouldn’t need to acquire any new house building materials I agree….

  22. itcheyness October 9, 2011 at 8:08 pm -      #222

    It’s actually on page 127.

    It is also specifically called a troopship in the text, not a battleship.

    Troopships IRL are usually converted Ocean Liners and the like, not battleships.

  23. Deus Ex Machina October 9, 2011 at 8:15 pm -      #223

    I have the PDF version and didn’t say it was a battleship, I was mostly pointing out that ships in 40k carry millions of troops, and I am way too lazy at the moment to go find examples of ships with massive numbers so we’ll just stick with the ens of thousands number and keep everyone happy.

    (however if you aren’t feeling lazy look in the Battlefleet Gothic books and look at the pictures of the rows of men as fa as the eye can see.)

  24. Deus Ex Machina October 9, 2011 at 8:19 pm -      #224

    homeofcadaver.deviantart.com/art/40K-Demotivational-261972212?q=sort%3Atime%20warhammer%2040k&qo=35

  25. Gluttonous-Behemoth October 9, 2011 at 8:19 pm -      #225

    Even better:

    Imagine several of those Troop Carriers Landing around the Town of Forks, Washington.

  26. Deus Ex Machina October 9, 2011 at 8:26 pm -      #226

    @GB reminds me of a fan-fic I read…

  27. Gluttonous-Behemoth October 9, 2011 at 8:45 pm -      #227

    The report of Kubrik Cheknov? Because if it is, its a hilarious Parody of what would happen.

  28. Deus Ex Machina October 9, 2011 at 8:48 pm -      #228

    @GB might be it, I read a couple out of boredom.

    O the fight if we use max calcs for both sides then the Retribution wins, with minumum calcs….well that is yet to be seem.

  29. Gluttonous-Behemoth October 9, 2011 at 8:49 pm -      #229

    I think L-W’s contributions in the early comments is more than enough evidence for a win.

  30. Deus Ex Machina October 9, 2011 at 8:58 pm -      #230

    Yeah they do tend to drop jaws, and think that that isn’t even the maximum wank we could get.

  31. Commander Cross October 9, 2011 at 9:00 pm -      #231

    @G.B

    Wonder what might ensure if both Hogwarts(and its fellow mystic schools) and C.H.B wound up getting drafted by the Imperium, then? :pale:

    Next thing you know, they’d look for the Department 19 dudes(Blacklight) next, and Department 19 was written by a guy named Will Hill.

  32. Gluttonous-Behemoth October 9, 2011 at 9:07 pm -      #232

    @Cross

    Sad truth is that if the Black Ships were to come to those respective worlds (assuming they arent deemed witches and purged) the vast majority of them would be sent to Terra to be Sacrificed at the Astronomican. Of those that remained, many would die during the soul-binding process, and the rest would be absorbed into the Telepathicae, Navis, or Sanctioned Psyker Corps.

    Only the most powerful would really find anything great in their service to the Emperor except eventual death in a horrible fashion or daemonic possession.

  33. Commander Cross October 9, 2011 at 9:12 pm -      #233

    @G.B

    *gulp*

    And if the other sorts of IoM ships were to find them, instead? :sad:

  34. Gluttonous-Behemoth October 9, 2011 at 9:23 pm -      #234

    Kind of depends on exactly how zealous the Ship Commander is but…

    Imperial Navy: Lance Strike from orbit obliterates the Major wizarding schools and centers in holy flame. Imperial Guard forces stationed on board disgorge and claim the Planet in the name of the Imperium.

    Adeptus Mechanicus: See above, but send down Skitarii and Titan Legios to kill what the bombardment missed, then start to turn the planet’s resources to good use in their forges.

    Space Marine Chapter fleet…See options A and B, and add in drop pod shock attacks and LOTS of spent Bolter casings.

    Rogue Trader Vessel: Probably goes down, steals some valuable artifacts, then Sells the location of the world to the forces in options A, B, or C.

    Es no bueno por los Ninos.

  35. Commander Cross October 9, 2011 at 9:29 pm -      #235

    @G.B

    So if its guys along the lines of the Black Templars or other Space Marine Chapters particularly unforgiving on the matter in general, that’s just bad news to deal with, all around, right? :shock:

    Know any ‘merciful’ cases that wouldn’t go to inflict cruel mercy but still recruit enough of the residents from each school, then?
    Sounds like a chilling what-if to think about, there.

    Meantime, as for this fight, we using general warship variants for both sides, or are we using customizably known cases?

  36. Deus Ex Machina October 9, 2011 at 9:32 pm -      #236

    @CC some rogue Inquistors might let them slide, Rogue Traders, and anyone Chaos.

  37. Gluttonous-Behemoth October 9, 2011 at 9:36 pm -      #237

    @Cross

    Like I said, it all depends on how Zealous and Trigger Happy the Commander in question is. Space Wolves or Salamanders for example, they might just be courteous enough to NOT Put a Nova Cannon round through the planet. The Black Templars howevah…

  38. Commander Cross October 9, 2011 at 9:36 pm -      #238

    @D.E.M

    If the Rogue Traders are loyal to the Imperium, i think i’ll take the Rogue Traders’ idea, then. *gulps*

    In any case, are we using ‘Regular’ Super Star Destroyers here, or are we using one of those customizable variants(the Executioner, for instance) or even an Eclipse Super Star Destroyer?

  39. Commander Cross October 9, 2011 at 9:39 pm -      #239

    @G.B

    Where the Space Wolves or Salamanders might be considerate to recruit people from those schools in particular, the Black Templars would not take chances, and compared to if the Gene-stealers got to the planet first, they’d unleash a loose case of Mercy-killing, right?

    As for the starships on both sides in the fight?

  40. Gluttonous-Behemoth October 9, 2011 at 9:45 pm -      #240

    @Cross

    I’d go for standard template unless otherwise specified.

    It is rare (possibly unheard of) for a Chapter to recruit from anywhere but their Chapter’s homeworld. And remember, these are Imperials, even if they are a little more amiable, they will still put a bolter round through your skull at the lightest whiff of heresy.

    Hm, Be a Host for a Genestealer, or be flayed by a Xenophobic Megahuman…Is there an option that doesn’t include horrible death? No? Well, can I at least get a few rounds of Amasec first?

  41. Commander Cross October 9, 2011 at 9:49 pm -      #241

    @G.B

    Well that solves a few things.
    If we went with E. Super Star Destroyers, instead?

    And that’s still rather morbid a prospect to consider, albeit less bad among the ones involving the Imperium’s forces finding this place, right?

    I am not sure if there’s a more positive 3rd option, let alone 4th option, available, here. :sad:

  42. Deus Ex Machina October 9, 2011 at 9:51 pm -      #242

    @GB well they do recruit from many worlds actually, usually Feral Worlds or Hive Worlds, but it isn’t unheard of to get some from other worlds.

  43. Gluttonous-Behemoth October 9, 2011 at 9:55 pm -      #243

    Oh.

    Can you imagine a Kroot Elite dressed in robes and a wizard’s hat prancing about a battlefield screaming gibberish and causing Troops to catch fire and explode and Tanks turn into flocks of pigeons?

  44. Xeno Dimentio October 9, 2011 at 9:59 pm -      #244

    Wait i would like to ask before i get involed, is this Executor-class super star destroyer or Eclipse-class? it matters.

  45. Deus Ex Machina October 9, 2011 at 10:01 pm -      #245

    @Xeno it’s Executor.

  46. Commander Cross October 9, 2011 at 10:02 pm -      #246

    @D.E.M

    So recruitment from some of the more combat-worthy of the Potter-world’s residents isn’t entirely out of the question?

    @Xeno Dimentio

    If its Executer-class or Eclipse-Class, what would happen on the odds of the IoM ship in the fight, for each one?

  47. Xeno Dimentio October 9, 2011 at 10:06 pm -      #247

    Ok its executor. I ask because the Eclipse class has a superlaser similar to the death star.

  48. Gluttonous-Behemoth October 9, 2011 at 10:06 pm -      #248

    Claso de Eclipse es muuuuy grande, and has an equally grande weapon roughly equivalent to one of the nine constituent beams of the Death Star’s superlaser.

    And now that I think of it, some CHB’ers wouldn’t make half bad Rune Priests if they weren’t already too old for Geneseed modification.

  49. Deus Ex Machina October 9, 2011 at 10:08 pm -      #249

    @CC correct.

    @XD and GB funny enough is with the high calcs the Retribution can casually put out more firepower than the Eclipses superlaser.

  50. Gluttonous-Behemoth October 9, 2011 at 10:10 pm -      #250

    @Deus

    Welp, glad I’m an Imperial team guy all the way.

  51. Xeno Dimentio October 9, 2011 at 10:11 pm -      #251

    @G.B.
    Funny that they both can be considered imperial lol.

  52. Commander Cross October 9, 2011 at 10:12 pm -      #252

    @G.B

    E. Super Star Destroyers are even less joketacular than ‘Regular’ cases are.

    Well if it helps, i wonder, if Space Marines would recruit from females, if Lacy could somehow survive from the process and wind up being one of those cases, unless you feel that given the standard ‘gender-based’ cases for some funny reason or another, Mitchell of the Aphy cabin(one of the very rare SONS she actually has!) is somewhat better-suited, and even then he has to survive the process first, right?
    That said, for the sake of averting mental meltdowns, are other cases from the other gods(like Hekate’s creations, for instance!) more viable to recruit?

  53. Deus Ex Machina October 9, 2011 at 10:17 pm -      #253

    Unfortunately females can’t become Space Marines due to certain implants, however the can become Sisters of Battle.

    And lol for Imperial win ;)

  54. Xeno Dimentio October 9, 2011 at 10:20 pm -      #254

    lol is that pic of the ssd from Star warss EAW FOC loll that games awesome

  55. Deus Ex Machina October 9, 2011 at 10:22 pm -      #255

    @XD yeah it is, I agree the game is amazing, especially for its mods.

  56. Gluttonous-Behemoth October 9, 2011 at 10:24 pm -      #256

    @Cross

    If Hesphaetus has any kids: Iron Hands or Salamanders.

    Poseidon: Miiight fit in with the Space Wolves

    Athena/Ares: Ultramarines, Imperial Fists, Flesh Tearers, Space Wolves.

    Hermes: Raven Guard.

    Hekate/Aphrodite/Dionysus: I suppose whatever Chapter doesn’t shoot them first and has a use for them.

    And if the Females still get rejected by the geneseed, there might be open slots in the Sororitas.

  57. Commander Cross October 9, 2011 at 10:24 pm -      #257

    @D.E.M

    Wouldn’t they need to worry about non-corrupted Grey Knights being mis-managed to kill S.o.Bs, though?(due to Matt Ward?)
    For that matter, what ‘sects’ of the SoBs would do rather…female/female-esque acts, for that matter? :sweat:

    This is very Imperial, the match, i mean.

  58. Commander Cross October 9, 2011 at 10:27 pm -      #258

    @G.B

    I wonder how much of a Psyker Ratio do B.Rs actually possess?(I know its lower than that of Grey Knights, but still…)

    That was a pun-worthy note of the match.

  59. Gluttonous-Behemoth October 9, 2011 at 10:28 pm -      #259

    @Cross

    Sisters Repentia. Just, Sisters Repentia.

    *Curls into Fetal position while rocking back and forth*

  60. Deus Ex Machina October 9, 2011 at 10:29 pm -      #260

    @CC HERESY Grey Knights cannot be corrupted! And only very rare cases of S.O.B. being turned, there are some Convents that might be into “femalesque acts” but usually they frown upon this.

  61. Xeno Dimentio October 9, 2011 at 10:30 pm -      #261

    G.B. could you join Cross and I on The Harry vs Dimentio thread? I feel it should be a collaborative project for all the Knights of Rammstein lol. Were just coming up with ideas there.

  62. Gluttonous-Behemoth October 9, 2011 at 10:31 pm -      #262

    Yeah, in the rough ten thousand years since their inception not a single Grey Knight has fallen. Grey Knight Chaplain=Priest times Eighty Thousand.

  63. Commander Cross October 10, 2011 at 12:12 am -      #263

    @D.E.M and G.B

    Know that i never accused a Grey Knight of being corrupted, i simply suspect them to be capable of being deceived, albeit that would be difficult if you bar the cases where Ward has them tricked into doing rather…dumb decisions, that is.

    That said, i wonder how jarring would Aphy and Hekate girls + Sisters Repentia actually be, to be honest. :?

    So what does the ‘Regular’ Super Star Destroyer have, in way of professional fighting forces?

  64. Commander Cross October 10, 2011 at 1:43 am -      #264

    @G.B

    Let me guess, we get ‘standard’ officers for both sides as far as ranking is concerned in this match, right?

    Meantime, are the Imperial Fists guys the ones who specialize in Siege Warfare(and whom the Black Templars got their Medieval-esque tendencies from, except in B.Ts case, its ad nauseum?)

  65. Gluttonous-Behemoth October 10, 2011 at 12:00 pm -      #265

    @Cross

    The Sister’s Repentia carry Eight foot long Chainswords as their standard armament. You do the math.

  66. Gluttonous-Behemoth October 10, 2011 at 12:01 pm -      #266

    Actually, Rogal Dorn was a Fortification specialist, while his Brother Peturabo was all about siege. The Imperial Fists built the fortifications of the Imperial Palace during the Horus Heresy, and the Iron Warriors were the ones who broke through them.

  67. Commander Cross October 10, 2011 at 10:30 pm -      #267

    @G.B

    So jarring, that even if we don’t get to take the female/female cases regarding Repentia’s convents, the weaponry being carried alone would be so jarring, everyone’s eyes would go wide in shock, right? :shock:

    Exactly how do i keep getting the Imperial Fists and the Iron Warriors mixed up as to which Space Marines from which Primarch does what?
    Is it due to the case of Irony when the Fists besieged the Iron Warriors after Dorn got a vision from the Emperor to go after Perturabo on his own?

  68. michamus September 25, 2012 at 11:13 am -      #268

    By “SSD” I’m assuming you referring to an Executor-class Star Dreadnaught. If this is the case, then the Warhammer 40k Retribution-class star ship wouldn’t stand a chance.

    Hell, the Retribution-class couldn’t even hold up to an EVE Titan, let alone an Imperial ECSD.

  69. Edohiguma October 28, 2012 at 7:47 pm -      #269

    Michamus, what do you base this on? The hype coming from Lucas? Being a rabid fanboy of a badly designed universe that is really just a rip off of one of the greatest movies ever?

    The Star Wars ships are generally of a really awful design. Let me correct that: vehicle design in Star Wars is generally piss poor.

    Star Destroyers, for example, have an awfully exposed bridge with little to no protection. All it took the Rebels to take out the Executor at Endor was one fighter blowing up their shield domes (which were also extremely exposed) and another fighter, an A Wing, spiraling out of control and straight into the bridge that didn’t even have blast shields on the gigantic windows. Great design, if you want to die. Want a really good ship design for space combat? Check the re-imagined BSG. That design makes actual sense.

    And what’s the GE’s answer to those things blowing up all the time? Make them even bigger. With even more mass, thus becoming even less maneuverable.

    Or take the entire TIE series of fighters/bombers. It’s just as awful. The pilots fly birds that are basically gigantic blinders, violating every single rule for fighter design and dogfights. The pilots have such a limited view that I’m actually surprised they can hit something at all, which most likely only happening to add artificial drama to this entire Kurosawa rip-off.

    As for the Death Star… It’s one of the most illogical things ever designed. It’s a waste of resources. So it can blow up a planet. Yeah, smart, waste even more resources. Instead of building more ships, which would actually be useful, Palpy builds those gigantic balls in space. Seems he was lacking something.

    Don’t really want to get into the ground combat, but hell, why not. The ATAT is probably the most ridiculous vehicle ever conceived. It’s huge and slow. IG would tear the Imperial Army to shreds. The entire Galactic Empire, heck, the entire Star Wars universe doesn’t even have proper tanks, just ridiculous walkers. Most ground equipment was specifically designed for games that take place on the ground.

    Not even going into the tactics and strategies we see employed throughout the movies and EU. Star Wars military is cannon fodder for a handful of hero characters, that’s why nobody ever bothered developing it decently and we’re stuck with nonsensical stuff. It’s all about the overrated Jedi, who have proved to be complete idiots in the whole Geonosis affair.

  70. GuardianAngel1911 July 9, 2013 at 9:16 pm -      #270

    Saw this fight existed, and after the discussion with ships and all in IoM vs GE thought maybe it should be revived anew in order to put it to rest. Anyone want to debate this?

  71. Aelfinn July 9, 2013 at 10:04 pm -      #271

    L-W, for all that I feel I fight his legacy, made some pretty devastating calcs at the beginning of this match. I can check and make sure they’re legit and all, but if they hold true, it would probably spell the end for the SSD.
    -
    It hearkens back to what I said in IoM vs GE: The IoM can fight the better battle, but the GE fights the better war.

  72. GuardianAngel1911 July 9, 2013 at 10:12 pm -      #272

    @Aelfinn
    I just wanted to revive it since that match was ended, I don’t remember if we calced the firepower of the SSD there or not. I feel like we did….but I don’t know.

  73. Aelfinn July 10, 2013 at 10:14 pm -      #273

    “Conservative figures point to the Battleship firing “two hundred foot” torpedoes, which would be sixty meters long. Assuming that the diameter is 1/4 to 1/5 of the length, the torpedo would yield a diameter of around fifteen meters. To be further conservative, assume a density equal to water (yeah, I’m being ultra conservative here.) The mass of the torpedo in question would be between 6,800 and 10,600 tons.
    Thus the kinetic energy of a torpedo is about 12,400,000,000 petajoules (Staggering really) with a momentum (Measured by calculating the speed and weight of the torpedo) between 6.6e16 kg*m/s and 1.05e17 kg*m/s.
    Giving a single Torpedo a staggering yield of 2963 teratons (Or 2.9 petatons – Wow).”
    -
    This is wrong. Completely. I used his unsupported speed of 20,000 km/s and calculated the mass of it based off steel (using his estimates of shape), and I found a kinetic energy equivalent to about 2.5 teratons. Those momentum calcs he has? They have the object moving faster than the speed of light.
    -
    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steel
    -
    In addition to THIS! His estimate of the dimensions of the torpedo were completely wrong. The diameter of a torpedo is nowhere close to 1/4 or 1/5 the length. This shows that modern torpedoes are generally in the range of 1/10 to 1/12 the length.
    -
    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_torpedoes
    -
    So, I’m going to re-calc, using the shape of a cylinder (which would honestly be an over-estimation), the mid-range density of steel, and the new relationship.
    -
    I got a mass of 14083366.38 kilograms.
    At 20,000 km/s, they have a kinetic energy of 673.2 Gigatons. MUCH lower than initially calculated. And while that’s not the highest end, it did make favorable assumptions.
    -
    ” 400,000 terajoules, or just under 10 gigatons.”
    -
    ZomB already pointed out how this was less than 100 megatons, so this is wrong.
    -
    Based on his specifications, the Nova Cannon calc is around the 20 Petaton area, so this is correct. His specifications seem to hold up to scrutiny of ballistic weapons, though it is possible one could make an argument against his 90% speed of light figure depending on what “close to the speed of light” is.

  74. Neon Lord July 10, 2013 at 10:20 pm -      #274

    “The most common form of torpedo is over 60 metres long and contains both a powerful warhead and a short-lived plasma reactor similar to, but less stable than, those used in starships and Titans. Each torpedo is built to accelerate quickly from its launching tube into the void, hurtling in a straight line towards the enemy. While many torpedoes are fired to deter enemy movement and thus may never strike, each individual weapon can do significant damage to a voidship, and thus are feared by many captains.
    -
    Guided by a crude and murderous machine spirit and the calculations of a ship’s Master of Ordnance, a torpedo uses basic augury techniques scanning for the heat from plasma drives, target silhouette, electronic output, and even an enemy ship’s mass to locate enemy vessels. Once the machine spirit acquires its target, powerful manoeuvring thrusters to adjust course to intercept. Upon impact, the forward momentum drives the torpedo’s body deep into the vessel’s structure before the warhead and plasma reactor both detonate, inflicting damage far greater”
    -
    pg. 6 RT: Battlefleet Koronus.
    -
    The key thing is that torpedoes are 60m long, and can be Plasma, Boarding, Melta, Virus and Vortex. A Virus torpedo to the bridge can remove the command of the SSD
    -
    “Nova Cannons are a classification of exceptionally powerful weaponry that can only be mounted upon capital ships. Mounted below the heavily armoured prows of Imperial Navy cruisers and battleships, Nova Cannons have few equals in terms of their range or destructive power. While variation exists, a typical Nova Cannon consists of an array of potent gravimetric impellers designed to accelerate a projectile to a fraction of the speed of light. These projectiles vary more than the nature of the cannons themselves, ranging from sophisticated plasma warheads which burn with the ferocity of a small star for a fraction of a second, to implosive devices which exert destructive gravitational forces upon all those caught within several thousand kilometres of the detonation. In any case, a well-used Nova Cannon is a terrifying thing to face, as much a psychological tool as a weapon. The weapons however are often ill-favoured by the Imperial Navy, with most captains preferring to utilise the more traditional torpedoes. Those few who favour the weapon understand that it is difficult to use and often rendered useless at close ranges.”
    -
    pg. 15 RT: Battlefleet Koronus.
    -
    All of the above info might change some of the calcs abit.
    -
    However, according to the Torpedo section on this page, torpedoes for Battleships are 300m long. The guy who made the page is usually pretty exact with his info, so somewhere in the sources at the bottom I would assume it states that they are that big.
    warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Imperial_Navy#Torpedoes

  75. Neon Lord July 10, 2013 at 10:25 pm -      #275

    “Based on his specifications, the Nova Cannon calc is around the 20 Petaton area, so this is correct. His specifications seem to hold up to scrutiny of ballistic weapons, though it is possible one could make an argument against his 90% speed of light figure depending on what “close to the speed of light” is.”
    -
    I would redo the calcs with 30%-50% speed since the newer source says a fraction of the speed of light.
    -
    Just a thing to note, the calcs merely caculate the kinetic impact energy, and don’t include the actual energy released by a warhead’s detonation.

  76. Aelfinn July 10, 2013 at 10:35 pm -      #276

    ” Upon impact, the forward momentum drives the torpedo’s body deep into the vessel’s structure before the warhead and plasma reactor both detonate, inflicting damage far greater””
    -
    This may be able to be interpreted that the explosive yield of the torpedo is greater than the kinetic energy yield of it, which would put it into a low teraton weapon.
    -
    “However, according to the Torpedo section on this page, torpedoes for Battleships are 300m long. ”
    -
    It is a wiki, though, and considering you have direct quotes, I am more inclined to go with them.
    =
    The main point of my post was to show that the firepower discrepancy between these two ships was not as far apart as indicated with L-W’s calcs. The Nova Cannon remains a one-hit kill, as far as I am aware, but the “broadside” weapons, as they were, are far closer. If ICS is counted (which I hope it never is), the SSD may even have a firepower advantage. However, if using in-canon events, the two are comparable in many ways. The Retribution may have a firepower advantage with the in-canon events, though.

  77. Sauroposeidon July 10, 2013 at 10:41 pm -      #277

    I’m going to lean towards the SSD in this match.There’s so many variants and some, like the Eclipse, pack super lasers. Most importantly, their fighter compliments are just all around better. Tie Droids are vicious things and if they’re on board this SSD they’ll chew the other battleship up.
    -
    The Nova Cannon is simply too unpredictable to be a deciding factor even if this ship is bringing one to the fight.
    -
    These are both technically battle carriers, yes? Then the fight will be decided with their on board craft. Long before either of them fire at each other their launched craft will engage each other. In general, I have a fairly low opinion of IoM space superiority fighters.. but if they can launch in large enough numbers then the match might be theirs. Star Destroyers, like all large vessels, have poor screening against smaller attack craft.
    -
    On the other hand, if the SSD’s support craft can keep the IoM fighters at bay then the SSD pretty much controls this match.
    -
    It’s faster, incredible well armed, and has ion cannons for shutting down the enemy vessel. An enemy who’s only significant weapon of any danger has less range or fire power than the rough equivalent that can be put on a SSD, and is far less reliable. We know super lasers can be effectively used with out cause for concern against other capital ships. We also know Nova Cannons are a huge gamble… It seems clear to me who wins in a slug fest, not that this is clearly determined by a slug fest.

  78. Aelfinn July 10, 2013 at 10:41 pm -      #278

    “Just a thing to note, the calcs merely caculate the kinetic impact energy, and don’t include the actual energy released by a warhead’s detonation.”
    -
    Correct, so these are low-end in their own way.
    -
    “I would redo the calcs with 30%-50% speed since the newer source says a fraction of the speed of light.”
    -
    Using a cylinder again (an over-estimation, but relatively close), 50m diameter, 150m length, a density of steel equal to 7900 kg/m^3, and 30% the speed of light, I find the kinetic energy to be 2.2 Petatons. Higher than anything I’ve seen or heard of in SW, and as far as I am aware, it remains the one-hit kill.

  79. Aelfinn July 10, 2013 at 10:54 pm -      #279

    “An enemy who’s only significant weapon of any danger has less range or fire power”
    -
    I wouldn’t say that. Not at all. What I meant by a possible firepower advantage for the SSD was the sheer volume of its shots. The highest in-canon event even indicating Gigaton yields for a turbolaser mentions “gigatons”, which can only be shown to mean 2 gigatons, or thereabouts. This same source indicates that the recoil was enough to, without bracings, “tear the ship in half”. Now, this was on a normal ISD, but you see my point. The average torpedo on the Retribution is 300 times more powerful than a Turbolaser in this relatively high-end showing.
    -
    Honestly, I don’t see the fighters doing much. Considering a TIE fighter in A New Hope hit R2-D2 and didn’t destroy him, it doesn’t make sense for their weapons to be even in the kiloton range, unless you want to make the claim that R2 can survive nukes.

  80. Sauroposeidon July 10, 2013 at 11:07 pm -      #280

    I was compared a super laser to a nova cannon, since SSD’s are big enough to mount them, and two were built with them.
    -
    R2D2′s instance involves plot armor. Their fighters got tore up by TIE Fighter lasers. R2D2 surviving makes as much sense as storm troopers having the accuracy of a baby monkey.

  81. GuardianAngel1911 July 10, 2013 at 11:07 pm -      #281

    to be fair R2 was severely damaged, he’s also a droid designed specifically for help with navigation and repairs on fighters and made with durasteel the same stuff as the fighters those lasers are designed against. So arguably they are designed so they won’t be utterly vaporized.
    -
    have we ever calced Star Wars Ion Cannon damage?

  82. Aelfinn July 10, 2013 at 11:26 pm -      #282

    But even if the Fighters were putting out hundreds of kilotons (which boggles my mind), it would take approximately 10,000 shots to equal one turbolaser from the instance I spoke of. Let alone the 1,000,000 shots it would take to equal the Turbolaser from the ICS. It’s literally like bows and arrows being used against a tank, except less effective. They simply won’t hurt the Retribution in any noticeable way.
    -
    The use of a Nova Cannon or Superlaser, I must say, is dependent on the maneuverability of the ship using it, considering they’re both difficult to line up. In this, I feel the Retribution has an advantage, with it’s smaller size.
    -
    “have we ever calced Star Wars Ion Cannon damage?”
    -
    I do not believe so.

  83. Sauroposeidon July 10, 2013 at 11:34 pm -      #283

    To my knowledge, fighter lasers aren’t used to do more than strike weak points. The missiles and bombs are used to cause crippling damage to a target. Although I know TIE Droid fighters are apparently accurate enough to pick apart a SSD on their own with out bomber support. I don’t see why they couldn’t chew up a Retribution like so many ants upon some unfortunate piece of prey. There are usually obvious weak points on a ship. The first being the engines. Those are always huge and obvious and easy to hit and not something that is easy to put proper defense around due to their usually huge surface area needed for farting fire or glow dust or whatever an individual ship from some scifi uses.
    -
    My understanding for a super laser is that the target only needs to be in the forward arc of the firing vessel. The vessel does not need to angle its entire body like it were the barrel of a gun (or the stock of one in the Nova Cannon’s case).

  84. GuardianAngel1911 July 10, 2013 at 11:37 pm -      #284

    “I do not believe so.”
    -
    ah, anyone want to…take a crack at that? Because an SSD has 250 Heavy Ion cannons. Which…would be a lot of firepower I would think.
    -
    interestingly it also has 40 tractor beams…which could prove useful for pinning down the Retribution class.
    -
    full weapons loadout on the SSD is
    250 Ion Cannons
    2000 turbolasers in groups of 8
    2000 heavy turbolasers in groups of 8
    250 concussion missile tubes with 30 missiles each (total of 7500 missiles)
    500 point-defense lasers.
    so…lot of firepower. And assuming it’s fully loaded it will have 1000 or so tie ships (depending on fighter/defender/bomber what have you their all slightly different sizes.)

  85. GuardianAngel1911 July 10, 2013 at 11:39 pm -      #285

    granted I believe that loadout is assuming it doesn’t have the continent busting superlaser….

  86. Glutinous-Bicarbonate July 10, 2013 at 11:48 pm -      #286

    We see in ESB that Ion Cannons jack up ships even with their shields, since there was no prior bombardment to compromise the deflectors’ integrity.
    -
    Additionally, a passage says that Tyranid bioships have weapons that function on a similar principle, sending massive electric current through a ship to fry the electronics and kill crew. Would that lend more evidence to a IoM battleship being vulnerable to Ion hits?

  87. Glutinous-Bicarbonate July 10, 2013 at 11:50 pm -      #287

    From GE vs Tyranids
    -
    Rarest of all Kraken is the Hellblaster. This beast’s sole objective is to contact with the hull or shields of an enemy ship and discharge a massive burst of electrostatic energy. Powerful bolts arc through the hull of the prey, overloading its power systems as the raw electricity claws, crackles and spits its way across the vessel’s hull. Even if the Hellblaster is finally killed by the prey’s armament, it will have wrecked the target beyond repair.”
    -
    Tyanid Codex 5th ed, pg. 14
    -
    This indicates high level discharges, such as are generated by ion weapons, could have a high probability of downing shields and wrecking components.

  88. mack006 July 11, 2013 at 12:10 am -      #288

    As much as I hate to say this but the SSD wins. It is fairly obvious as it is larger, armed to the teeth, sleeker so it is a smaller target to hit from the side and more advanced.
    -
    The only way the Retribution can win is by hitting the SSD with it’s Nova Cannon from a extremely far distance without missing.
    -
    Oh the truth hurts so much…

  89. Aelfinn July 11, 2013 at 12:12 am -      #289

    ” I don’t see why they couldn’t chew up a Retribution like so many ants upon some unfortunate piece of prey.”
    -
    Shields/overall durability? Apparently Retributions can take hits from Nova Cannons (although if Nova Lord could provide durability feats, that’d be most helpful).
    -
    The Krakens you mentioned, G-B, first got past the shields to deliver the energy, as IIRC a relatively slow-moving object can get past Void Shields.
    -
    I don’t know exactly what an Ion Cannon would do to a Retribution Class ship, but I would imagine that they’d run into the shields first (considering 40k shields and SW shields work differently). If they don’t contact the shields, I can’t imagine any one shot completely disabling the Retribution, considering it takes planet-mounted ion cannons to completely disable a ship. Disable a section maybe, but it would take repeated shots to put it down.
    =
    Another thing I should mention is that the SSD has a major flaw in how exposed its bridge is. A single A-wing crashed into it and took it out, which sent it careening into the Death Star.

  90. Glutinous-Bicarbonate July 11, 2013 at 12:17 am -      #290

    The quote says contact the hull OR shields. That implies it can short out the shields themselves.

  91. GuardianAngel1911 July 11, 2013 at 12:23 am -      #291

    @Mack
    well the Empire arms all their capital ships to the teeth, their not meant for just being capital ships their meant to work with or without a compliment of frigates and fighters which is why the ships are so fast actually…their basically giant multirole air..spacecraft…emphasis on giant.
    -
    @Aelfinn
    were the shields down or not when the A-wing crashed? I don’t remember?
    Also it should be noted that that fighter had to have had more plot shielding than Batman to avoid all the turrets and other anti fighter defenses to get to the bride….I mean…4000 turbolasers alone…plus thousands of fighters.

  92. itcheyness July 11, 2013 at 12:35 am -      #292

    @GA
    The shields had just fallen and they were in the process of increasing fire to shield the bridge when the A-wing hit.

  93. GuardianAngel1911 July 11, 2013 at 12:43 am -      #293

    also fun fact Tie Defenders and Hunters are equipped with smaller Ion Cannons.
    -
    looking to see if I can find anything on Ion Cannon damage though.
    -
    @Itcheyness
    Ah okay thought so

  94. GuardianAngel1911 July 11, 2013 at 1:59 am -      #294

    found this quote about Ion Cannons but not sure what kind of fire power it would be.
    “Moonshadow was coming up and turning to port, its port-side batteries firing against Direption’s aft shields. Red and blue laser and ion cannon fire pumped terajoules of energy into the shields, but somehow they stayed up.” [ "X-Wing: Isard's Revenge" p.111 ]
    all I can find so far

  95. OberHeresy July 11, 2013 at 3:29 am -      #295

    Couldn’t the Retribution just turn this into a boarding game? Ram the ship, and send endless waves of IG/SM until they take the ship? It definitely has the mass, and the troop strength.

  96. Slayer July 11, 2013 at 4:33 am -      #296

    “Apparently Retributions can take hits from Nova Cannons (although if Nova Lord could provide durability feats, that’d be most helpful).”
    -
    Well IoM ships can fire continent busting salvoes and tank said salvoes for extended periods of time for what it’s worth
    -
    Both ships should be comparable in stats from what I know
    -
    ““Moonshadow was coming up and turning to port, its port-side batteries firing against Direption’s aft shields. Red and blue laser and ion cannon fire pumped terajoules of energy into the shields, but somehow they stayed up.””
    -
    So anywhere from multi-block to town+ level for ion cannons. Sounds legit. Likely won’t one shot the Retribution though
    -
    “A single A-wing crashed into it and took it out, which sent it careening into the Death Star.”
    -
    To be fair? The Rebel Fleet opened all fire on the SSD, which was why Ackbar said “open all fire on the SSD” or something like that in ROTJ
    -
    Although the Millenium Falcon could park on an ISD so…..

  97. Neon Lord July 11, 2013 at 7:12 am -      #297

    “My understanding for a super laser is that the target only needs to be in the forward arc of the firing vessel. The vessel does not need to angle its entire body like it were the barrel of a gun (or the stock of one in the Nova Cannon’s case).”
    -
    It was mentioned somewhere early in the match that it’s a Executor SSD, and not one with super lasers.
    -
    “This indicates high level discharges, such as are generated by ion weapons, could have a high probability of downing shields and wrecking components.”
    -
    The whole purpose of that bio-ship is to ram into another ship and discharge all of its energy into it. I don’t think an Ion Cannon would discharge all of a large ship’s energy directly in one go.
    -
    The Retribution
    -Does not have a Nova Cannon (going by in-game armamnet)
    -Is not manoeuverable by 40k standards
    -Has four separate Void Shields
    -Lots of big gun batteries (emphasis on lots)
    -Lance turrets along its top
    -Prow torpedo tubes
    -Plenty of close-defence turrets designed to shoot down incoming torpedoes and attack craft
    -Lacks large-scale attack craft launch bays (although it can still launch small numbers of them, including bombers designed for anti-starship roles)
    -Should not mind ramming and mass boarding the SSD as its prow is tough enough to do so.
    -
    The Retribution is a ship focused around large broadsides and not much else. Conveniently enough, Macrocannon info is stupidly vague, with “kilo-tonnes ordnance” being the closest description to some sort of value.
    -
    “Shields/overall durability? Apparently Retributions can take hits from Nova Cannons (although if Neon Lord could provide durability feats, that’d be most helpful).”
    -
    There is actually only a single paragraph of information on a Retribution-class battleship which merely details historic glories. The torpedo info I provided mainly refers to Cruisers, and there is a small table of in-game stats which provides extremely vague information that can barely be used. In other words, there are no feats whatsoever (as far as I know) for a Retribution-class battleship (and for 90% of Imperial ships for that matter).
    -
    Some info on Macrocannons:
    Engines and reactors of a warship occupy a third of its mass; gun decks usually constitute three quarters of what remains. Even individual macroweapons are giant, housesized affairs covered with gantries, cranes, power lines and pipes with a crew hundreds strong. Lance turrets are even bigger—the size of a city block with a crew numbering in the thousands. Macroweapons of all kinds are hugely labour-intensive to run as few automated systems can be relied upon in battle. Laser, melta and plasma weapons are typically fed from generator stacks inside the gunrooms and multi-tonne reaction cells hoisted up from a magazine below. The random power surges on these decks mean crewmembers often must wear protective suits to avoid getting burned. Much of the crews’ time is occupied reconnecting or replacing components or wrestling sparking power lines back into place with insulated gaff-hooks. Projectile-firing macrocannons require much larger crews to handle and load their enormous shells into the waiting breaches. Macrocannon crews also have to contend with sitting on top of a magazine full of enough munitions to level a city. Many captains still prefer the reliability of macrocannons despite the medieval toil they inflict on the crew.
    -
    I’ll try and post up whatever information may be useful as needed, but there is really not much that can be posted. GW never went deeply into their spaceship fluff.

  98. GuardianAngel1911 July 11, 2013 at 11:45 am -      #298

    how do void shields work, I…I don’t think I remember discussing this in IoM vs GE.

  99. Glutinous-Bicarbonate July 11, 2013 at 2:40 pm -      #299

    Well it’s kinda hard to explain.
    -
    Voids can be built for anything from personal human sized shields (at least pre-heresy) for important people, to Titans, to of course Starships.
    -
    On Titans and ships, voids are placed in sections, overlapping layers of fields. So it’s possible to overload one section, but have the remainder up. Usually when one section falls, power is taken from the rest to bring it back up. Given time, the Voids will recharge (Knights and personal voids lack the power capabilities to do this though).
    -
    When dust and particles contact voids, there’s an effect called “shield noise” which is a pitchy whine caused by something or another. This is mostly relevant to titans, as it can give away one’s position to others if visibility is obscured by a storm.
    -
    As far as it seems, slow moving and otherwise “low” energy objects can pass through voids, while lasers and other attacks are absorbed. Titan CC weapons act below this threshold, as do some torpedoes and almost all Tyranid weapons.

  100. GuardianAngel1911 July 11, 2013 at 2:43 pm -      #300

    so it would be the equivalent of Star Wars Ray Shields, which absorb lasers and energy weapon attacks?

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