Galactic Empire Vs The Tyranids

Galactic Empire Vs The Tyranids

Here is a match that would be great fun to watch. While I think the Empire could hold out for a ‘lil bit, in the end the Tyranids would ultimately overwhelm them in numbers and even with Vader wiping out many Tyranids, the Empire would most likely fall.

What say you?

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270 Comments on "Galactic Empire Vs The Tyranids"

  1. Locutus April 8, 2009 at 7:00 am -      #1

    Yea this is a win for the Tyranids. The Hive fleets have trillions of ships and countless ground forces that would swarm and consume everything in their path.

    I wonder what would happen if they consumed the biomatter of a force user..

  2. Matapiojo April 8, 2009 at 8:47 am -      #2

    The Tyranid have many, MANY Zoanthopes that could match and even surpass some force users in SW. Being as how the Empire has very little of those, I’d say Vader and Palpatine are no advantage at all.

    I think the swarm will absolutely consume the Empire after a massive and prolonged engagement.

  3. AlphaCommando April 8, 2009 at 1:46 pm -      #3

    NIDS! I hate nids, however I do agree that they would beat the Empire, just waaaaay too many of them, that and the whole hive fleets splintering and the whole speculation that these are just scout fleets.

    Realistically they are meant to be an enemy that even in 40K are unbeatable seeming. Now I speculate that the Empire would be able to beat the Imperium in many ways but not Nids.

  4. Thepocalypse April 8, 2009 at 2:16 pm -      #4

    The Empire has nothing, I repeat, nothing, on the Tyranids.

  5. Baron Somebody April 8, 2009 at 3:17 pm -      #5

    NOOO!!! Not the Empire I grew up with and love!!! They will be destroyed!!! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO (as Darth Vader said)…but they might be able to blow up a few planets controlled by them with the Death Star

  6. El Zilcho April 8, 2009 at 6:54 pm -      #6

    How would the Hive Fleets compare to the imperial navy?

  7. AlphaCommando April 8, 2009 at 8:42 pm -      #7

    Its irrelevant, this is saying all Nids versus the Empire, not just individual hive fleets (which I believe that Empire could possibly contain). That’s just too much crap for the Empire to handle…

  8. L-W April 8, 2009 at 9:14 pm -      #8

    “How would the Hive Fleets compare to the imperial navy?”

    In a direct engagement? They wouldn’t fare to well.

    But the Hive Fleet is just so large, just so numerous, that even the Galaxy spanning armies of the Empire would just be overwhelmed.

    The Tyranid codex describes the fleet as a snaking tendril composed of trillions upon trillions of ships, slowly drifting through the darkness of space in one direction (Time is not an issue to them). The Tyranid Hive Fleets witnessed in current 40K lore are just the tip of this creeping tendril, followed by trillions of reinforcements hungering for a Galaxy to devour.

    Just check out this Star map as a reference:

    www.joachim-adomeit.de/wh40k/spacemap/map.html

    Just imagine those Hive Fleets expanding for thousands of light years in the opposite direction, then you start to get the picture. Either way, the Tau Empire is going to need some severely potent plot armour in the upcoming war with Kraken and Behemoth.

  9. Locutus April 8, 2009 at 11:22 pm -      #9

    “How would the Hive Fleets compare to the imperial navy?”

    Here is a better pic showing the Hive Fleet’s size:

    img15.imageshack.us/img15/1167/tyranidsincursions.jpg

    They are really frakin massive. Just the tip of Hive Fleet Behemoth we see in this pic covers a big chunk of the Milky Way.

  10. L-W April 9, 2009 at 5:46 am -      #10

    Is it even possible for the Human mind to even fathom the amount of Tyranids that exist throughout the Galaxy?

  11. Matapiojo April 9, 2009 at 9:17 am -      #11

    “Is it even possible for the Human mind to even fathom the amount of Tyranids that exist throughout the Galaxy?”

    Not really, but the map should help closing the gap.

    In case others are wondering. Yes, those tendrils are larger than many planets put together, and yes, they are still not complete.

  12. marche April 9, 2009 at 9:29 am -      #12

    googolplex?
    googolplex to the 100th power?

  13. EnigmaJ April 9, 2009 at 10:09 am -      #13

    “In case others are wondering. Yes, those tendrils are larger than many planets put together, and yes, they are still not complete.”

    Woah! O.O !!!!

    Are you trying to say that those lines that indicate the Hive Fleets in Locutes’ map are to scale?

    I thought they were just meant to indicate thier location…

  14. EnigmaJ April 9, 2009 at 10:13 am -      #14

    Btw, thanks admin for posting this. I didnt think you went this far back for Battle Requests.

    I try to have about 70% recent requests (from the past month) and the remainder are from the “original” list that’s on the site.

  15. L-W April 9, 2009 at 10:15 am -      #15

    As we’re all aware the Tyranid Hive Fleets have just (“Just” being a relative term) completed their tour of duty in a neighboring Galaxy, consuming its entire Planetary mass and converting it to sweet, delicious Biomass. Trillions of Tyranids can spawn from the successful conversion of a single Planet, just imagine what the mass of an entire Galaxy could do to bolster their numbers.

    I think the more pressing question is, how many Tyranids actually exist in the entirety of existence?

    - – -

    Supposition and queries such as this is the reason I’m a Tyranid collector in the first place. Whilst the Imperium, Eldar, Necrons and Tau forces (Etc, etc) are steeped in historical, cultural and technological lore forged through eons of war; nothing can compare to the instinctual and guttural terror of an emotionless and purely Locust-like swarm slowly unfurling towards you with it’s tendril like claws grasping in hunger. Devouring countless worlds, countless species and despite your best efforts, you will be next.

    I used to think they were just lowly animals, until I discovered the reclamation pools and the fact that everything in their path, from leaf to stone, tree to car (Even the warriors themselves and the atmosphere itself), would be digested and returned to the Fleet as a consumable soup of biomass. This is when I came to realize how terrifying the Hive Mind truly was.

    The perfect organism.

  16. Space marine April 9, 2009 at 10:28 am -      #16

    “Is it even possible for the Human mind to even fathom the amount of Tyranids that exist throughout the Galaxy?”

    Lots?

  17. Matapiojo April 9, 2009 at 11:43 am -      #17

    “The perfect organism.”

    I agree.

    The only reason I didn’t jump on this army was because of the oposite end of the spectrum result from the awe-inspiring force. I was simply intimidated in forming such a massive army.

    I have seen tables filled with these monsters while I only bring a force that barely reaches 50-60 models. The swarm is trully intimidating in all possible ways.

  18. flyboy51 April 9, 2009 at 1:05 pm -      #18

    There’s always a way to beat everything. In the unthinkable amount of galaxies in the universe, im sure the Tyranids will run into a species/civilization that will defeat them.

  19. Matapiojo April 9, 2009 at 2:28 pm -      #19

    The Tyranid are defeated all the time, but this doesn’t mean that the swarm will not overrun everything in the end. A single race will not be able to deal with the hive.

    Its said that they are moving into this galaxy after consuming an adjacent one, but that does not mean that they have not already consumed others before that. As you could probably tell, it is impossible to determine the Tyranid numbers.

    It would take something along the lines of the Halos, or Stargate’s Ancient Dakara Temple/Superweapon, adjusted to specifically target the Tyranid to completely eliminate this threat.

    As that is astronomically unlikely, the hive is here to stay. Time IS on its side.

  20. Space marine April 9, 2009 at 7:21 pm -      #20

    I know that one race will survive the tyranid threat…

    Necrons of course, They have steered clear of all necron presence. The only race capable of beating the Nids are the necrons, All they will need are a few tombships and then destroy the tyranid fleets, But then again, You can’t tell a necron what to do.

    Or maybe If the void dragon awakens and somehow manages to make the tyranid fleet turn, This would cause minimal damage to other races and that would mean more life for the necrons to harvest…

    I think the Necrons are about to get a little more popular….

  21. L-W April 9, 2009 at 9:27 pm -      #21

    Necrons are the closest thing to an anti-Tyranid weapon in the Warhammer universe.

    They are nearly impossible to ingest, phase away when damaged, have no concept of fear or personal valor and posses firearms and weapons that strip away material on the sub-atomic level. The Hive Mind would lose countless scores of warriors to the Necrons, yet reap no quantifiable return in biomass in a prolonged engagement.

    The only hope for the Imperium, Tau and Eldar now (Orks don’ care for long as der is fightin’) is to shore up their defenses and pray that the arrival of the main Hive Fleets coincides with the awakening of the Necron Tomb Lords. In which case a war between the C’tan and the countless forces of the Hive Mind would majorly weaken both parties in a state of total war until they can no longer function individually as a major threat to the Galaxy.

  22. Matapiojo April 9, 2009 at 9:59 pm -      #22

    “I think the Necrons are about to get a little more popular….”

    They are set to get a new Codex sometime soon. The Necron rumor-mill is pumping as intended.

  23. Space marine April 10, 2009 at 12:20 am -      #23

    “They are nearly impossible to ingest”
    They are impossible to digest with the exception of the flayed ones draped skin and the pariahs.

  24. L-W April 10, 2009 at 2:38 am -      #24

    You may have been somewhat close to correct if you did not confuse the difference between digestion and ingestion.

    Ingestion is the consumption of a substance by an organism. In animals, it normally is accomplished by taking in the substance through the oral cavity. In the case of Necrons this is practically impossible due to the fact that all, if not most of the Necrodermis phases out entirely.

    Digestion is the mechanical and chemical breaking down of food into smaller components, to a form that can be absorbed. In the case of Tyranids, digestion of minerals and alloys is the primary function of the Ripper swarms, who are not deployed until the total subjugation of a Planet is complete.

  25. sangheli_spec April 10, 2009 at 3:05 am -      #25

    I could easily see tau and humans fighting together tau want universal peace the tau and ultra marines can hold nids off since tau are second best nid fighters because i use to play them and ultra marines have experince in nid fighting the eldar are too arregant to help anyone but themselves so they’ll be wipped out by chaos or nids unless they ask the humans for protection

  26. L-W April 10, 2009 at 9:47 am -      #26

    There’s no way that even the combined might of every “Allied” force present in 40K lore can hold off the entirety of the Hive fleet.

    Some serious Godlike interdiction is necessary for their survival, with even the prospect of a full-blown Necron awakening being too slim of a hope (Who would have thought that our survival would lie in the balance between a race of countless Alien Insects and Undead Robots?) for a definite Coup de grâce against the Hive Mind.

    As for the Tau, the battle of Tel’Oshi Sept proved that whilst adept at defeating the Tyranid scourge in naval engagements, the Tau are not fit or even remotely secure in fighting a battle of attrition. The single Tendril they encountered was sufficient to stretch their resources to breaking point and cost the lives of countless Fire Warriors, lives that such a small Empire cannot easily replace.

    As soon as the main body of Kraken and Behemoth arrives, there is nothing in the Tau or Imperial arsenal to oppose to such numbers. They will die without their plot armour present.

  27. AlphaCommando April 10, 2009 at 10:04 am -      #27

    That’s good and all but you have to remember that every faction of 40K even the Tau are actually very close minded and will only accept help if a more threatening object looms in the short-term, after this issue has been delt with they will immediately go back to each others throats.

    Eldar are too manipulative and care for nobody but themselves
    Tau are space commies who absorb other cultures, where they eventually extinguish that culture.
    Chaos…speaks for its self
    Orks: Like to shoot thing and have no concept of “cease fire”
    Imperium; its heresy to do anything friendly toward any non-pure human/super-bigots
    Nids; nice try even trying to talk to them\
    Necrons; same as above…

    All in all the races in their current form will not and cannot work together against a common enemy, small, temporary alliances maybe but nothing that would allow for a unified long-term defense against say; the Nids. Its done that way on purpose, in the 40K universe cooperation and peace are overrated.

    I place most of the blame on the Imperium’s stagnating nature and insane level of bigotry.

  28. flyboy51 April 10, 2009 at 5:15 pm -      #28

    If the humans were able to use something similar to the Dakara weapon, you’re right, that would almost instantly kill all tyranids in this galaxy, and eventually the wave of radiation would reach the adjacent galaxy and kill the rest.

    If the Imperium truly does have so many worlds and resources under its control, don’t you think they could research something similar to the Ancients’ weapon on Dakara?

    We should get more Stargate stuff on BankGambling.

    What about Ancients VS Tyranids? Or Goa’uld VS Orks? Or Asgard VS Eldars?

  29. L-W April 10, 2009 at 10:27 pm -      #29

    “If the Imperium truly does have so many worlds and resources under its control, don’t you think they could research something similar to the Ancients’ weapon on Dakara?”

    Because the energy required to generate such a burst would equal more than the sum of a single galaxy itself. You’re talking about a burst of near infinite mass, which is frankly beyond even the total output of the Universe itself.

    Even then, the energy burst can travel no faster than the speed of light (Less than half actually). Since the Hive Mind can alter the entire physiological makeup of the entire fleet within less than an hour, the wave would only have a limited success before every Tyranid is resistant to mass sterilization.

  30. That one dude April 11, 2009 at 12:21 am -      #30

    I think i got a match for the nids that they just might lose. I was recentely watching The Day The Earth Stood Still and there were these bugs that ate whatever was in their path and they multiplied like crazy.

    Heres a video with them devouring a stadium…

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=3b5uj5ECUM4

    So do you think they’d have a chance of beating the nids?

  31. Matapiojo April 11, 2009 at 8:28 am -      #31

    “We should get more Stargate stuff on BankGambling.”

    I’ve tried, brother. I think there are way too few of us SG fans here, though.

    “Because the energy required to generate such a burst would equal more than the sum of a single galaxy itself. You’re talking about a burst of near infinite mass, which is frankly beyond even the total output of the Universe itself.”

    L-W is right. The only reason the Dakara weapon worked was because of the way all Stargates in the galaxy were used.

    At the very best scenario, this sort of weapon in the hands of the Empire could provide a single planet (most likely Coruscant) with incredible defense. I cannot think of a system such as the linked Stargates existing in SW, but I am not the end-all-be-all of SW knowledge.

  32. L-W April 11, 2009 at 9:18 am -      #32

    The Kwa and their Infinity Gates could easily end the Tyranid threat with a minimum of resistance, too bad they deliberately destroyed their technology to prevent it falling in the hands of lesser beings.

    Without the Kwa, the Empire will fall.

  33. flyboy51 April 11, 2009 at 11:44 pm -      #33

    “I’ve tried, brother. I think there are way too few of us SG fans here, though.”

    But theres SOOOO many scenarios we can make from that. The tech on SG is probably more powerful than SW and ST…it would be more interesting. Ori, Asgard, Ancients, Wraith, Replicators….some very powerful weapons.

  34. Space marine April 12, 2009 at 3:02 am -      #34

    “You may have been somewhat close to correct if you did not confuse the difference between digestion and ingestion.”

    I didn’t, I just added something on is all….

  35. L-W April 12, 2009 at 7:45 am -      #35

    No you didn’t.

  36. Battra Boy April 12, 2009 at 9:09 am -      #36

    The Tyranids would just overwhelm the Empire.

  37. El Zilcho April 13, 2009 at 12:29 am -      #37

    There are only two races which stand a chance of beating the Tyranids. The first is the Necrons, for the reasons other people have posted. The second is a unified Ork empire. Why? Well because there are more Orks then human in the galaxy and each one is a fighting machine superior to a human soldier. Not only that, but they grow stronger from war, both individual (Orks increase in size and strength from fighting) and in numbers (Orks require war to left of spore which grow into new Orks). It just a shame they will never unify into one glorious WAAAGH!.

  38. Space marine April 13, 2009 at 1:18 am -      #38

    “No you didn’t.”
    Yes I did.

  39. L-W April 13, 2009 at 1:36 am -      #39

    From now on, I demand that everyone speaks in Orkish when referring to the Orks:

    ‘Dem Nid bugz thinks dey is tuff, but Orks is made by Brain Boyz for fightin’ an winnin’! Giv’ um a Choppa to da face, show dem Nid Boyz who da Boss, if not, Choppa them again!

    We’ve got our Gargantz an’ we’ve got our weapons. Wot ain’t we got? We ain’t got anyfing for target practice iz wot! So I’ll tell you wot we’re gonna do. We’re gonna give da Nid Boyz a taste of ‘ot metal death is wot. We’s gonna take Big Gork and Big Mork ‘ere an’ we’s gonna stomp Bugz!

  40. Skrunks April 13, 2009 at 3:35 am -      #40

    Ehh…. Orks would just feed the Tyranids. Such a massive biomass would be like harvest time.

  41. Thepocalypse April 13, 2009 at 5:46 am -      #41

    The Yuuzhan Vong could put up a fight. Not saying they’d win, but they’re pretty tough.

  42. The One Sin May 16, 2009 at 11:47 pm -      #42

    How about Orks vs The empire?

    Dem feddy boys is nutin’. Dem sith fink Their foce can beat WAAAAGH! Bah! Get yer choppas and dakka dakka boys, we is gonna show the feddy boys what us orks do best: Fightin an Winnin!

  43. Soviet June 5, 2009 at 10:40 pm -      #43

    I’m just wondering, how many ‘nids can Kharn take one at one time?

    I think he may be able to fight off a whole hive fleet by himself, for another ten thousand years until they decide to return.

  44. sangheli July 2, 2009 at 12:48 am -      #44

    Necrons and a united ork waaaaagh aren’t the only races that can beat the tyrannids. The forces of chaos could also stop the hive fleet…..maybe. If the hive fleet invaded the warp and the chaos gods took notice to this threat the nids would send waves and waves of nids only to learn that daemons can never truly die, only be sent back to their realms. Khorns gonna have more skulls for his collection.

  45. sangheli July 2, 2009 at 12:55 am -      #45

    The necrons aren’t the only race that can beat tyrannids. If the hive fleet invades the warp and the chaos gods realise the threat they pose they’ll call forth every daemon and traitor back the warp. Since the daemons and traitors can’t be killed only banished back to the warp the tyrannids can’t do any real damage.

  46. CJ4Short July 18, 2009 at 12:00 am -      #46

    I have a feeling that the Orks would have little trouble stopping the ‘nids. in both the 3rd and 4th edition rulebooks i have, it mentions the fact that “If the orks united, no force in the galaxy could stop them!” Now, as to whether this specific citation is directly related to the Tyranids specifically located within the confines of the galaxy, or if this is a blanket statement towards all Tyrinids, I do not know.
    I do know, however, that even The God Emperor Himself was unable to destroy a powerful Ork Warlord, and was wounded in the ensuing battle.

    Back on topic- The Empire would be overwhelmed by the Tyranids, if only for the fact that they have almost an infinite mass to throw at them- i,e, due to the Law of Conservation of Matter, any Nid that dies can have its biomss completely reabsorbed, and produced into another deadly creature. The hive fleets never truly “lose” their building materials in the standard meaning of the term. It may take time to regrow creatures, but unlike the Empire, they have no currency to worry about for building war machines, Nor do they have suply lines that can be severed. Food for thought.

  47. pg14 August 3, 2009 at 2:48 am -      #47

    The Tyranids would efin OWN the empire i mean if you think about it for every storm trooper there is a trillion hermagaunts a billion gaunts and a million genestealers, for every empirial sized star destroyer there would be… hmmm maby a trillion hive FLEETS.

    The empire doesn’t have the technology either i mean they have lazers so they are pretty much empirial gaurd which is even worse. even if there were a million death stars the only thing they would accomplish is destroy the scout hive fleets( 4 septilian) and that wouldnt really do much considering that tyranids would have 1000000000000 times what the empire killed left! i know this is mind boggleing so think of it this way the tyranids are infinite. Have you guys ever heard the phrase when 1 falls 2 take its place. well in this when 1 falls a hundred million take its place even though it isn’t even possible!!!! (by the way i play WH 40K and I play tyrannids. the tyranid strategy is to have meat sheilds from hermagaunts but that wouldnt be neccisary considering the hearmagaunts would be enough to kill every living thing in the empire galaxy!!!!!!

  48. pg14 August 3, 2009 at 1:10 pm -      #48

    Even if all the races teamed up (very unlikely) (Eldar are too manipulative and care for nobody but themselves.
Tau are space commies who absorb other cultures, where they eventually extinguish that culture.
Chaos…speaks for its self.
Orks Like to shoot things and have no concept of “cease fire”.
Imperium; its heresy to do anything friendly toward any non-pure human/super-bigots.
Nids; nice try even trying to talk to them.
Necrons; same as above…) It wouldn’t matter necrons might beat the shit out of like 9/10ths of the army while the other races will do pretty much just about nothing. In fact unlike many of you think the Imperium will do the least because they have the most planets to protect in which case their forces would be the thinnest on all planets.

  49. cow 64 August 3, 2009 at 8:55 pm -      #49

    tyrranyds will never die, for the hive mind exists out of space

  50. panzeracclamator November 9, 2009 at 10:27 pm -      #50

    ‘em bugboyz know day wantz ur de en ay so dey can be fightin’ an’ winnin’ lik uz
    seriously though, full nids vs all orks would be an utter curb stomp in favor of the nids. they get that nice ultra-regenerative DNA and trillions more hermagaunts from ork biomass
    i have know illusions about a bug vs empire matchup either. while a stormtrooper may be somewhat higher quality than his Iom equivalent, they’ll be so swamped with numbers they couldn’t win
    as an aside, can the nids consume non biological matter?

  51. Dr.D December 18, 2009 at 12:08 am -      #51

    uhhh.

    no arguments:{(

    I have grown up loving STAR WARS.

    I pledge vengence on the dispicable TTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS

  52. L-W January 24, 2010 at 3:01 am -      #52

    Upon reviewing the latest Tyranid codex, I wish to rescind my original nomination.

    It now seems that whilst the Tyranids utilize a biologically manifested form of warp travel that is comparable to that of the Imperium (which is still at a Snail’s pace in comparison to hyperdrive), they cannot warp into star systems. In fact detailed accounts of Tyranid invasions that state that upon encountering the gravitational masses given off by whole star systems, the hive fleet drops out of warp and proceeds towards the system at sublight speeds, a journey that could take MONTHS to YEARS.

    With such abysmal stellar accelerations, the Tyranid threat suddenly becomes a lot easier to curb; and due to the impotence of their warp presence against hyperwave, the holonet and hyperdrive transmissions and propulsion, the Imperial Navy isn’t going to suffer from the same limitations that were inflicted upon the Imperium of Man when their psychically sensitive technology was overwhelmed by warp shadows.

    Not to say that the Tyranids don’t have the advantage of numbers, but in lieu of the latest Codex it is easy to see that said threat is a manageable one for the tactically and strategically superior Galactic Empire.

  53. TheSorrow January 24, 2010 at 4:14 am -      #53

    So I’ve have been wondering. If the Orks got a hold of the fastest starship the Galactic Empire had to offer and they painted it red. What would happen?

  54. Sergey January 24, 2010 at 4:44 am -      #54

    The Galactic Empire wins, stop the wanking! Let’s see, the Imperium can hold its own even though it’s levels below the Galactic Empire. The only reason some people view ‘Nids as threats is because they are a threat to the IoM’s galaxy, which is quite funny because their galaxy is full of incompetents with one competent race not even awake yet.

    You see, Tyranid ships are slow, weak, and rather defenseless, whereas GE ships are fast, strong, and have many defenses, the Nids would be countered at every move to the point they can’t sneak Genestealers in, and as the GE fleet massacres the Tyranid hive fleet because it’s too slow, the Hive Mind attempts to move around towards the Unknown Regions… which I don’t want to talk about…

  55. Whacko January 24, 2010 at 5:40 am -      #55

    “The only reason some people view ‘Nids as threats is because they are a threat to the IoM’s galaxy, which is quite funny because their galaxy is full of incompetents with one competent race not even awake yet. ”

    Wow, you hate 40K? It’s rare to see the whole 40Kverse labeled as incompetent. Anyway, the Tyranids have a chance with pure numbers, but they will find it extremely hard once the tactical superiority of the GE sends a few thousand Star Destroyers into the Hive Fleets flank. Unless, of course, the Tyranids have Bio Battleships not yet encountered and Triple Alpha level Zoanthropes. Yay.

  56. shaun182 January 24, 2010 at 5:49 am -      #56

    i would imagine the GE would have th advantage in the beginning, being much faster and able to co-ordinate across the galaxy to stem the tyranid horde, but as more and more tyranids build up they will just overwhelm the GE forces, and move on onto each new world increasing their already huge numbers.

    a tyranid victory would most likely take hundreds of years, to complete but they would have victory in the end.

  57. SinZero January 24, 2010 at 6:04 am -      #57

    May I remind you that the Tyranids are adept at engineering their own bio-tech from existing one. Meaning if they get a hold of even a single ship with the hyperdrive through boarding actions, the imperials might just find out that suddenly every ship of the Hive fleets is blitzing in and out of hyperspace, thus negating the only advantage they have.

  58. shaun182 January 24, 2010 at 6:10 am -      #58

    i wonder since the warp travel is completely different, from the hyperspace travel used by SW is their anyway the GE will be able to detect tyranid vessels, until they
    re-enter real space, which will make countering the tyranid threat all that more difficult.

  59. L-W January 24, 2010 at 6:20 am -      #59

    1) “a tyranid victory would most likely take hundreds of years, to complete but they would have victory in the end.”

    New canon reveals that the Tyranids take months or years from dropping sublight, to attacking a planet. That’s months of sitting there letting the whole Imperial Fleet concentrate its force upon you with concentrated bomber and cruiser assaults.

    They die.

    The Imperium doesn’t have nearly the same strategic speed the Galactic Empire has; the Imperium’s warp-capable ships are restricted to something on the order of 1000 to 10000c. Even given months to move their fleet to counter a Tyranid assault, the Imperium won’t be able to get more than the local-sector defense fleet into position.

    At that, my impression is that the Tyranids aren’t nearly as much of a threat in space as they are on the ground; the Imperium usually wins the naval battles. What keeps the Tyranids alive and dangerous in 40k is a number of factors:

    -The shadow in the Warp makes it difficult to move fleets and send messages in the immediate vicinity of a Tyranid fleet.

    -The main Hive fleets are big, so big that even given the Imperium’s ton-for-ton space superiority, they don’t have the tonnage to beat them easily.

    -A dispersed Tyranid force can overwhelm local Imperial defense fleets piecemeal; if the Imperium concentrates its fleets too tightly it loses the planets it didn’t cover.

    -Even if the Imperium manages to take down most of a major Tyranid battlegroup, the splinter fleets will scatter all over the place and make trouble for years.

    Against the Galactic Empire, they’d be meat on the table, though. Their warp-jamming abilities wouldn’t do a lot of good against hyperspace travel or communication, and the navy could concentrate ships from almost anywhere to meet them in deep space, then drop truly massive levels of firepower on their heads…for months.

    2) “May I remind you that the Tyranids are adept at engineering their own bio-tech from existing one. Meaning if they get a hold of even a single ship with the hyperdrive through boarding actions, the imperials might just find out that suddenly every ship of the Hive fleets is blitzing in and out of hyperspace, thus negating the only advantage they have.”

    Logically, the negative is always assumed. The Tyranids cannot be assumed to have significantly faster FTL travel than they have been shown to possess without evidence for it. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

    Similarly, you must show that the Tyranids are capable of extracting information from individuals consumed by the Hive Fleets. Even if they do so, they lack the infrastructure necessary to construct, fuel, and maintain hypermatter reactors and hyperdrive. Hypermatter itself is an essential component to hyperdrive. However, Tyranid bioplasma reactors are not shown to be sufficiently close to hypermatter reactors in performance that the Tyranids would gain no net advantage from developing hypermatter technology. Still, the onus is on you to show that the hive fleets can brainsuck their unfortunate victims and develop hyperdrive so quickly.

    So please, explain to me why the Tyranids have yet to develop instant inertialess drives after encountering the Necron fleet at the Eastern fringe, or take your useless no-limits supposition and come back with some citation.

    What are you, a resident Borg wanker?

  60. L-W January 24, 2010 at 6:22 am -      #60

    “i wonder since the warp travel is completely different, from the hyperspace travel used by SW is their anyway the GE will be able to detect tyranid vessels, until they
    re-enter real space, which will make countering the tyranid threat all that more difficult.”

    Tyranids leave warp space months to years out of system, as long as you know what you’re looking for, they won’t be too difficult to detect.

  61. SinZero January 24, 2010 at 6:44 am -      #61

    “What are you, a resident Borg wanker?”
    Of course not, but then again this thread isn’t about the Borg.

    “So please, explain to me why the Tyranids have yet to develop instant inertialess drives after encountering the Necron fleet at the Eastern fringe, or take your useless no-limits supposition and come back with some citation.”
    Did they board the ship and beat the crew? Did they get the ship for themselves to analyze up close and personal? Knowing the Necrons, they only saw the ship being there one moment and disappearing the next. Providing they even engaged in battle, which I doubt, but who knows. I’m not familiar with the incident in question.

    I was referring to how the ‘nids engineered their own form of teleportation. You know the worms that live in the warp and act as live tunnels. Not quite the same thing, but the results are pretty similar. So just maybe after acquiring an operational hyperdrive and realizing that their own means of transportation are inferior, the Hive Mind might stall the invasion until something similar is made.

    Alas, this is only speculation and I’m not really an expert on them, I just respect what they’re capable of doing. What’s the latest codex?

  62. shaun182 January 24, 2010 at 6:52 am -      #62

    if it does take the months to years for them to get to their target in real space, after leaving the warp, then i must agree with the GE will be able to detect them, and muster a suitable force to counter them,

    the only way i could see the tyranids gaining a victory, is if absolutely overwhelming force of tyranids, emerge with numbers that years of constant bombardment form GE forces, does little to strip their overall numbers and the likelyhood of this happening is almost zero.

  63. L-W January 24, 2010 at 7:35 am -      #63

    1) “I was referring to how the ‘nids engineered their own form of teleportation. You know the worms that live in the warp and act as live tunnels. Not quite the same thing, but the results are pretty similar. So just maybe after acquiring an operational hyperdrive and realizing that their own means of transportation are inferior, the Hive Mind might stall the invasion until something similar is made.”

    “Maybe” isn’t a quantification, neither does it give license to abuse the no limits fallacy.

    This discussion follows logical discourse whenever possible, and logic dictates that the negative is always assumed; especially when you take into account that Tyranid FTL travel is psychically linked through their biology and has little to do with borrowed technologies or tachyonic matter (but rather uses gravity based propulsion mechanisms).

    2) “if it does take the months to years for them to get to their target in real space, after leaving the warp, then i must agree with the GE will be able to detect them, and muster a suitable force to counter them,”

    Considering it would take centuries for the main body of the Hive to reach the Galaxy, imagine how insanely large the Imperial military would be after centuries of rampant militarization.

    In the space of three decades they constructed 25,000 Imperial Star Destroyers, dozens of Dreadnought-class.command ships, two moon sized battle stations and a myriad of advanced superweapons and fleets from a starting navy of nearly three million vessels. Picture what a century of preparation would do for them.

  64. Sergey January 24, 2010 at 5:34 pm -      #64

    Thank you, there is little chance the Nids can move into the Galaxy without being blown out of the sky. And I don’t hate 40k, I like it. I have read 20+ Warhammer 40,000 novels.

  65. Jwlynas January 24, 2010 at 5:57 pm -      #65

    “The only reason some people view ‘Nids as threats is because they are a threat to the IoM’s galaxy, which is quite funny because their galaxy is full of incompetents with one competent race not even awake yet.”

    …That race still waking up? You mean the race that is waking up to find half of its troops utterly insane due to mysterious forces, and half of its higher leaders having wholly different plans to the original race ideas?

    OK…

    “You see, Tyranid ships are slow, weak, and rather defenseless”

    Wrong, wrong and… wrong.

    Tyranid ships are slow on an intergalactic scale, but in engagements they’re rather nippy, because they move organically rather than having to worry about things like variable momentum or potentially ripping themselves in half if they turn too quick.

    Defenseless… Again, not really. Quite aside from the ablative armour of untold numbers of floating mini-nids to take the vast brunt of the firepower heading their way, they also have incredibly thick armour plating, and the more important ships have hivemind powered shielding.

    Weak. I’m laugh at this one. As per, their smaller ships are, being close combat vessels almost exclusively, moving in close to opponents and latching on to deposit huge numbers of whatever the tyranids use as a boarding party onto the enemy vessels. However, they also have massive spore mines, the Zoanthropes psychic blasts focused from one source and a dizzying amount of cannon fodder. that absorbs most if not all attack.

    You’ll note that most armies that attack the tyranids in “naval” battles do it with a lot of prior warning as to where the nids’ll be, time to prepare and generally at least one or two captains who know exactly what the tactics against Nids are, and almost every one of those battles is used for the same thing. Delaying tactics, selling their lives dearly in front of the unstoppable horde. Orks are outnumbered, Space marine Chapter masters are outflanked and out manouvered, Imperial Guard fleets are wholly outdone in their mindless wars of attrition.

    The Galactic empire are good, but they’d have to come up with better tactics than “lookit, floating space bugs, shootem!”

    And all the while, the tiny pods filled with genestealer in stasis will be launched across the galaxy in infest every planet they come across, acting as beacons and as infiltraitors. Even if the Hive fleet is stopped, that will be far from the end of it.

  66. Sergey January 24, 2010 at 8:49 pm -      #66

    I LOVE how you give credit to the Tyranids to winning, but none to the GE. First off, GE ships are WAAAY better than IoM ships, and IoM ships kick Hive Fleet ass 8/10 of the time, Hive Fleets don’t pump out anymore than teratons, while normal ISD’s have 4.8-6.0 exaton shielding which is over 1,000 times more powerful than a Nova Cannon shot. They can simply fly towards the ship and prepare for ramming speed…

    No Tyrants, Brood Lords, or Zoanthrophes will save the Tyranids, because in the Star Wars universe the Warp is >VERYSHITTY

    Their smaller ships are close combat vessels? GOOD LUCK getting through EXATON SHIELDING. The Tyranids as well as most of 40k is fucked against the Galactic Empire.

  67. L-W January 25, 2010 at 12:10 am -      #67

    1) “Tyranid ships are slow on an intergalactic scale, but in engagements they’re rather nippy, because they move organically rather than having to worry about things like variable momentum or potentially ripping themselves in half if they turn too quick.”

    Uh, that’s not how momentum works.

    The Tyanid armada must obviously posses such abysmal inter-system acceleration (we’re talking about barely scratching the surface of escape velocity here) due to their very limited organic nature.

    First off, momentum effects EVERYTHING. The first thing you should know is that no mass traveling beneath the speed of light can violate the laws that dictate the conservation of momentum in a zero gravity vacuum environment; a Tyranid hive fleet is going to feel the pinch of momentum just as much as an IOM frigate, the only difference is that the frigate will have the advantage of fusion propellant and inertial compensation.

    Secondly, organic matter breaks, very easily. A Tyranid hive vessel is just as (if not more so) susceptible to breaking apart when performing high G maneuvers in space.

    At no time have we ever seen a shred of evidence that biological systems can realistically supplant wholly artificial technologies in applications such as large-scale power generation, armour, naval or aircraft propulsion, military weaponry, bridges and buildings, etc. In fact, all of those technologies were developed to replace biological systems. Biological systems are chemically reactive and structurally feeble in comparison to metals and ceramics, and both of these characteristics can spell doom for a starship. Furthermore, there are strict limits to how much this will ever change, because chemical reactivity is a prerequisite for life. Moreover, living cells requires a constant supply of nutrients, which means that all living cells must always be semi-permeable. Compare this to a massive, inert piece of metallic or ceramic/metal composite armour, and you can quickly see the problem for organics.

    Organic technology is good for medical applications (obviously, since we are organic) and bioweapons are certainly dangerous (although they’re also fraught with difficulties). However, the idea of organic space combat vehicles and high-powered propulsion and/or weapons systems is just silly. Even organic computers are a highly questionable idea in sci-fi, since we are already researching quantum computing today, and quantum computing operates on a smaller scale than organics can. Sci-fi writers and fans who tout the omnipotence of organic technology tend to identify areas in which it is superior, while ignoring all of the areas in which it is vastly inferior.

    2) “You’ll note that most armies that attack the tyranids in “naval” battles do it with a lot of prior warning as to where the nids’ll be, time to prepare and generally at least one or two captains who know exactly what the tactics against Nids are, and almost every one of those battles is used for the same thing. Delaying tactics, selling their lives dearly in front of the unstoppable horde. Orks are outnumbered, Space marine Chapter masters are outflanked and out manouvered, Imperial Guard fleets are wholly outdone in their mindless wars of attrition.”

    Which ignores the fact that the IOM navy is at least ten orders of magnitude more strategically and tactically limited than the Galactic Empire for the reasons that I listed. IOM naval technology falls to shit when they encounter hive fleets and the only actual counter to this is to somehow hit the Tyranid brain where it hurts or just simply mass fire where possible.

    This whole supposition ignores the major weaknesses of the feudal Imperium of Man, yet somehow manages to supplant them upon the Galactic Empire in the process.

  68. Sergey January 25, 2010 at 2:47 am -      #68

    So… you agree the GE wins?

  69. shaun182 January 25, 2010 at 3:08 am -      #69

    The GE is the most likely victor, but i could imagine the tyranids would by a pox on SW universe for centuries to come, the imperial fleet will continually have to put out tyranid brush fires so to speak.

    Since small elements of tyranid fleets might make planet fall, and if the empire cant destroy them on the ground, it will result in massive orbital bombardment which may leave the planet useless to the GE, whilst the lose of one planet is not a real problem, the numbers may build up over time.

    And we can only imagine what might happen if tyranids made into to coruscant perhaps in the form a gene-stealer cult .

  70. SinZero January 25, 2010 at 3:24 am -      #70

    I think I learned to do my homework before adding my ideas to the pond. Nice. So now I’m done and let’s see whether anything changes.

    “Similarly, you must show that the Tyranids are capable of extracting information from individuals consumed by the Hive Fleets.”
    You may now turn your attention to your very own Tyranid codex. It’s in page 6 on my pdf file, not sure where it would be on your hard copy, but let me quote:
    “Creeping Genestealers burst from their hiding places, destroying the command sections of the enemy whilst Lictors stalk the shadows, preying on the unwary and feasting on their brains with their feeder tendrils so they may transmit knowledge of the foe’s weaknesses to their ravenous kin.”

    Now from the context it’s clear that this is all happening while a planet is being assaulted and the battles are raging at full force. Obviously the priority of any participants at this stage is the immediate destruction of the foe, so the only information the Lictors are searching for would include the weak points in their defenses, possible ambushes and anything else that could be used to kill the enemy more quickly. I have no doubts that should the need arise, they might also search for other things in the brains of captured victims.

    “This discussion follows logical discourse whenever possible, and logic dictates that the negative is always assumed; especially when you take into account that Tyranid FTL travel is psychically linked through their biology and has little to do with borrowed technologies or tachyonic matter (but rather uses gravity based propulsion mechanisms).”

    Alright then. Mind explaining how the Yuuzhan Vong are traveling through hyperspace? Because if my memory serves, they despise technology as a whole and all of their toys are homegrown. So unless somehow they are capable of genetic feats above that of the Tyranids, I can’t see why the ‘nids couldn’t do the same. Of course, if I hear that the Vong are superior, I’ll be needing proof for that. So far I view them as similar organisms who have adapted to different circumstances and different enemies. One fights in a universe where Warp travel is the dominant form, while other cruises around in Hyperspace. Is there anything that separates their abilities to evolve?

    As a matter of fact I’m curious whether there is a chance to feast on a few Vongs while on their way to the GE? Wiki was rather cheap on the information, I only gathered that they come from a neighboring Galaxy and attacked the New Republic. Seeing how they somehow killed Chewbacca, I’m guessing it’s not that far in the future from our time period. There is also mentioned that they traveled to SW in some thousand years. Is it possible that both the Vong and Tyranids meet in the void between the stars? assuming the Hive fleets don’t just magically teleport in the SW universe. Now take note how I don’t know much about the EU, so perhaps I’ve misunderstood something and am building my theories on the wind. Feel free to correct any of my points.

    So to conclude I’ve presented everything that I could find on the subject. Giving the scant info on Tyranids, that may be pretty much all on this subject. If this is shot down, I’m giving it to GE. If not..the bugs may have their last say in this still.

  71. L-W January 25, 2010 at 4:09 am -      #71

    1) “Creeping Genestealers burst from their hiding places, destroying the command sections of the enemy whilst Lictors stalk the shadows, preying on the unwary and feasting on their brains with their feeder tendrils so they may transmit knowledge of the foe’s weaknesses to their ravenous kin.”

    Which tells us nothing about how Tyranid adaptation is supposed to generate a whole new method of superluminal travel sans the possibility of them manifesting some capacity to absorb genetic memory and/or retained information.

    2) “Now from the context it’s clear that this is all happening while a planet is being assaulted and the battles are raging at full force. Obviously the priority of any participants at this stage is the immediate destruction of the foe, so the only information the Lictors are searching for would include the weak points in their defenses, possible ambushes and anything else that could be used to kill the enemy more quickly. I have no doubts that should the need arise, they might also search for other things in the brains of captured victims.”

    It’s common knowledge that the Tyranid adapt to combat any new foe they encounter (although with a substantial trade-off as a result), but as I’ve stated, incredible claims require incredible evidence; which without you cannot make unsubstantiated claims.

    3) “Alright then. Mind explaining how the Yuuzhan Vong are traveling through hyperspace?”

    Micro black holes that cause the fabric of space ahead of a Vong vessel to contract and the space behind it to expand. The ship then rides this wave inside a region known as darkspace. Since the ship is not moving within this space, but carried along as the region itself moves, conventional relativistic effects such as time dilation do not apply in the way they would in the case of a ship moving at high velocity through flat spacetime.

    FTL on the outside, relative on the inside. The burden of proof is now on you to prove that the Tyranids can utilize a whole new strain of of superluminal travel without extensive industrialization of tachyonic matter WITHOUT breaching the no-limits fallacy rule.

    4) “As a matter of fact I’m curious whether there is a chance to feast on a few Vongs while on their way to the GE?”

    Learn forum rules.

    This is the Galactic Empire versus the Tyranids, no outside help, no assistance, only yourself and the guns in your holster.

  72. SinZero January 25, 2010 at 4:52 am -      #72

    “Which tells us nothing about how Tyranid adaptation is supposed to generate a whole new method of superluminal travel sans the possibility of them manifesting some capacity to absorb genetic memory and/or retained information.”

    The ability to ravage in the minds of their victims could come in handy in more than a few ways. For example to know the key targets which should be made a priority on a galactic scale, like Coruscant and the most important industrial sectors, or even knowledge on how the hyperdrive works if they mind probe an engineer. However all this knowledge is pretty useless if they will be severely outmatched in terms of speed all the time and get bombed before even reaching the objectives. The fact that they have no capabilities of harvesting/using the components necessary to create their own version of hyperdrives doesn’t help either.

    “FTL on the outside, relative on the inside. The burden of proof is now on you to prove that the Tyranids can utilize a whole new strain of of superluminal travel without extensive industrialization of tachyonic matter WITHOUT breaching the no-limits fallacy rule.”

    Then the Vong and Tyranids are obviously separated by more than a few years worth of evolution. Not only would they need to create and control said black holes, an ability they have never displayed, but also somehow keep themselves together the whole journey and survive in that darkspace region. It’s either that or somehow using the hyperdrives at Empire’s disposal, another thing they’ve never displayed of even being capable of doing.

    Alright then, it’s obvious that I can’t prove any feasible way of them evolving a whole new way of FTL travel superior to Warp drives while being engaged in active warfare with the Empire. Perhaps if they had a few thousand years, just maybe. But time is what they wouldn’t have.

    My vote goes to the GE in this one. Well done.

  73. Whacko January 25, 2010 at 6:14 am -      #73

    Ah, damn. I hate it when 40K gets busted due to sub par FTL travel. Anyway, the ‘nids are still beyond awesome, unlike the GE.

  74. Whacko January 25, 2010 at 6:18 am -      #74

    BTW, if we swap the depressingly slow ‘nids to rather fast necrons, would the undead robots win? They get 1 million World Engines and 53 x Grahams Number worth of Tomb Ships.

    Yay, necrons!

  75. L-W January 25, 2010 at 6:56 am -      #75

    “Ah, damn. I hate it when 40K gets busted due to sub par FTL travel. Anyway, the ‘nids are still beyond awesome, unlike the GE.”

    It all depends on whom you analyze.

    The Imperium, Tau, Chaos forces and especially the Tyranids usually lose due to their inferior strategic mobility. The Eldar are fast, but are limited to where they can travel to thanks to the strategic placement of webway tunnels.

    The Necrons? Forget it, they have inertialess drives. A Necron tombship could be initially on the opposite side of the Galaxy and turn up on your next door step in the next nanosecond and there would be no noticeable time dilation.

  76. Jwlynas January 25, 2010 at 7:26 am -      #76

    Surely there’s a point where speed is a disadvantage?

    The whole problem with star wars speeds is that the higher levels involve taking time to figure out co-ordinates and making sure the ship is aimed directly. They can’t turn while at their fastest, because they’ve no idea where they’ll end up, humans, droids, force users, none of them have reflexes fast enough to turn at the right time when they’re at Light speed or above.

    Exhibited wonderfully in any space battles seen in the canon movies, whereby Tie-fighters have massive turning circles even at their relatively sedate speeds, and in games such as X-Wing versus Tie-Fighter where they are again limited by the forces of physics when it comes to turning circles.

    Tyranids have the advantage of being organic, and therefore able to turn their whole bodies, rather than just the engines. See swallows in flight and tell me anything in star wars has that sort of air control, and then demonstrate proof.

    As for the shields, I understood that they, like most others, relied on something travelling over a certain speed before reacting. Otherwise releasing all the ships they can from the bowels of the star destroyers would be pointless, they’d all explode upon reaching said shields. Tyranid ships aren’t the speed of lasbolts (ads you so frequently point out) ans hsould have no problem moving past the shields.

    If I’m wrong about that, again, demonstrate it.

    The GE are at the same disadvantage as every other space-faring fleet. Tyranids are as close to infinite as can be known.

    This match isn’t the GE versus a hive fleet, or even a tendril. This is the entire Tyranid Hivemind coming crashing into the star wars universe and ignoring all but the Galactic Empire.

  77. L-W January 25, 2010 at 9:05 am -      #77

    1) “The whole problem with star wars speeds is that the higher levels involve taking time to figure out co-ordinates and making sure the ship is aimed directly. They can’t turn while at their fastest, because they’ve no idea where they’ll end up, humans, droids, force users, none of them have reflexes fast enough to turn at the right time when they’re at Light speed or above.”

    Depends.

    Heavy ECM jamming tends to limit how quickly a pilot can maneuver, so without navigational and fire control software they are indeed limited to their own reflexes which are limited to only several thousand G’s at a time (which is why Luke was forced to launch his torpedo compliment at the last second during Yavin). But in environments devoid of any countermeasures human reflexes can be supplanted by automated hardware and software, such as in “Destiny’s Way”, in which Han was pulling throttling combat maneuvers and dog fighting against Coralskippers at 600,000,000 miles per hour with the aid of his combat support systems.

    As for hyperdrive; navicomputers and FTL sensors map out sectors of space up to several dozen light years in each direction, granting them the ability to avoid collisions, alter course in mid-flight and come to a dead stop if necessary. How else would a vessel survive galactic travel if their hyperdrive is pushing one light year per second?

    2) “Tyranids have the advantage of being organic, and therefore able to turn their whole bodies, rather than just the engines. See swallows in flight and tell me anything in star wars has that sort of air control, and then demonstrate proof.”

    You do realize that most organic bodies can only tolerate 15 G’s of exposure at anyone time before their bones and internal organs collapse, right (which actually suits Tyranid lower end acceleration figures rather well)? Launch a Swallow at even 100 G’s and watch the poor thing implode. Whereas Humans in the Star Wars verse are seen pulling 2000, 20,000 and even 20,000,000 G accelerations and suffering no noticeable strain in the process thanks to their powerful propulsion systems and inertial compensator technology.

    To compound this, being able to turn in mid-flight on the fly does not negate momentum in a vacuum. A Tyranid war vessel turning on the dime at 10 G’s is still going to suffer the same problems as an artificial vessel turning on the dime at 1000 G’s; momentum and inertia. Turning your guns is useful, but is also equally useless if your prior momentum drives you in one direction out of control.

    3) “As for the shields, I understood that they, like most others, relied on something travelling over a certain speed before reacting.”

    None of the official literature suggests that speed is the pre-requisite for determining how a shield reacts since there is no general consensus as to how they even work. Ray shielding on the Invisible Hand seemed capable of preventing Obi-Wan and Anakin from escaping the projected field (in the novel, Obi-Wan describes contact with the Ray shield as having the effect of annihilating anything that passes through it); whilst the ICS describes that any troops or vehicles passing through shields need to be grounded or protected by heat sinks or face the risk of being fried (although this tends to be conditional to the plot).

    4) “Otherwise releasing all the ships they can from the bowels of the star destroyers would be pointless, they’d all explode upon reaching said shields.”

    Hanger bays have separate shielding systems that can be deactivated and reactivated separately from the main shield array, as demonstrated in TPM, AOTC, ROTS and numerous Clone Wars episodes (including the feature length film).

    4) “Tyranid ships aren’t the speed of lasbolts (ads you so frequently point out) ans hsould have no problem moving past the shields.”

    Unless the commander of a vessel has a death wish, I can’t see many engagements taking place at such ludicrously close engagements when Star Wars vessels have an advantage in acceleration and range. Considering how long it takes for them to cross stellar ranges, a Star Destroyer could sit in one place for months at a time and pummel the hive fleet from light minute ranges.

    5) “The GE are at the same disadvantage as every other space-faring fleet. Tyranids are as close to infinite as can be known.”

    Still doesn’t address my initial assessment.

    A) The Empire has vastly superior strategic and tactical mobility to the Imperium, by orders of magnitude. We’re talking about months for a sector fleet response from the Imperium to an hour at most from the Galactic Empire.

    B) The shadow in the Warp makes it difficult to move Imperium fleets and send messages in the immediate vicinity of a Tyranid fleet. The Galactic Empire doesn’t suffer this deficit, they can perform rapid and accurate inter-system jumps with some ease, whilst their communications are uninhibited and instantaneous across the galaxy. The holonet itself would be of an effective weapon against a Tyranid hive fleet than a thousand Retribution-class vessels.

    C) There is no reason to suspect that Tyranids would ever pass Imperial screening to get into positions of military authority on any large scale (although given the scope of the galaxy there might well be some local screw-up at some occasion). Even if this massive conspiracy was already in place before the Empire came into being (which probably stretches credibility by itself), there is no reason that the Imperial security agencies should not find it out. That is before magic/Force gobbledygook (aka Palpatine’s precognition, Prophets of the Dark Side, &c.) is taken into account.

    D) The Empire is by its definition a federal state, which has real-time communications across the galaxy as fairly standard (if expensive for a private citizen) measures. Federal agencies are coherent throughout, with orders going from the Coruscant hierarchy down to individual System Cells in Intelligence, for example, even if the agencies themselves compete between them. The Imperium is hampered by its worse communications and the dissociative nature of its agencies internally, as well as by the fact that it is essentially feudal rather than federal; planets are generally left alone as long as they pay their taxes and do not overtly worship Chaos/Genestealers/what have you, and the Inquisition at least seems more loosely/informally organized than the comparable Imperial agencies.

  78. Sapper007 January 25, 2010 at 9:51 am -      #78

    so what LW is saying….
    the Tyranids are tanks… and the galactic Empire is F-22 Raptors… with more guns…
    and no matter how hard the tank tries to chase the airplane… its just not going to catch it…

  79. Tim January 25, 2010 at 11:03 am -      #79

    It went from this:

    “Supposition and queries such as this is the reason I’m a Tyranid collector in the first place. Whilst the Imperium, Eldar, Necrons and Tau forces (Etc, etc) are steeped in historical, cultural and technological lore forged through eons of war; nothing can compare to the instinctual and guttural terror of an emotionless and purely Locust-like swarm slowly unfurling towards you with it’s tendril like claws grasping in hunger. Devouring countless worlds, countless species and despite your best efforts, you will be next.

    I used to think they were just lowly animals, until I discovered the reclamation pools and the fact that everything in their path, from leaf to stone, tree to car (Even the warriors themselves and the atmosphere itself), would be digested and returned to the Fleet as a consumable soup of biomass. This is when I came to realize how terrifying the Hive Mind truly was.

    The perfect organism.”

    to this:

    “At no time have we ever seen a shred of evidence that biological systems can realistically supplant wholly artificial technologies in applications such as large-scale power generation, armour, naval or aircraft propulsion, military weaponry, bridges and buildings, etc. In fact, all of those technologies were developed to replace biological systems. Biological systems are chemically reactive and structurally feeble in comparison to metals and ceramics, and both of these characteristics can spell doom for a starship. Furthermore, there are strict limits to how much this will ever change, because chemical reactivity is a prerequisite for life. Moreover, living cells requires a constant supply of nutrients, which means that all living cells must always be semi-permeable. Compare this to a massive, inert piece of metallic or ceramic/metal composite armour, and you can quickly see the problem for organics.

    Organic technology is good for medical applications (obviously, since we are organic) and bioweapons are certainly dangerous (although they’re also fraught with difficulties). However, the idea of organic space combat vehicles and high-powered propulsion and/or weapons systems is just silly. Even organic computers are a highly questionable idea in sci-fi, since we are already researching quantum computing today, and quantum computing operates on a smaller scale than organics can. Sci-fi writers and fans who tout the omnipotence of organic technology tend to identify areas in which it is superior, while ignoring all of the areas in which it is vastly inferior.”

    Lol at how times(and opinions) change.

  80. Jwlynas January 25, 2010 at 11:04 am -      #80

    I think its more that GE are the aforementioned F-22′s, and the Tyranids are kids on Bicycles.

    Damn the new book I say, at least before the Nid’s could catch up with people. Fish in a Barrel matches are no fun.

  81. Tim January 25, 2010 at 11:05 am -      #81

    By the way that’s not an insult to L-W I just find it humorous how things change on this website over time.

  82. Jwlynas January 25, 2010 at 11:21 am -      #82

    I’m pretty sure its the new codex thats brought on his change of heart. it used to be that we could rely on the tyranids to catch up with the GE, at which point monomolecular claws that stay that way indefinitely really screw up any plans of resistance.

    If ‘Nids can’t catch the damn empire, then theres not a whole lot they can do, and their biological weapons are incredibly hard to figure out a destructive level for. How does acid even react to Star Wars shielding? Can X-wings get through it without exploding? How do star destroyers unleash their fighters, can they choose areas of a shield to bring down, or do they have to leave themselves massively vunerable briefly? Do shields only react to things that don’t have a specific signature, allowing Empire stuff to penetrate but not rebel… Its all very perplexing, but its basically what screws us Tyranid fans over. if they can’t penetrate the shields, and can’t catch up with the empire, theres not a whole lot they can do.

  83. SinZero January 25, 2010 at 12:28 pm -      #83

    “I’m pretty sure its the new codex thats brought on his change of heart. it used to be that we could rely on the tyranids to catch up with the GE, at which point monomolecular claws that stay that way indefinitely really screw up any plans of resistance.”

    Doesn’t look like the case. To my knowledge it has always been like this with Tyranids using the same Warp travel for their needs, just like everyone else (excluding the Necrons and Eldar, perhaps Tau, but they’re still no faster). If it was any other way, then GW would kill off their business, as the ‘nids would have the advantage not only in numbers, but also in mobility. That’s pretty much devastating – Imperium, Tau, Eldar, even Orks, would get wiped out in 1-3 years without knowing what hit them.

    It’s a fun thought.. Tyranids with Hyperdrive. Good for them, funeral for pretty much everyone else.

  84. Jwlynas January 25, 2010 at 1:02 pm -      #84

    but that tagline of “sometimes it can take months, even years to make planetfall” really screws the speed up.

  85. Matapiojo January 25, 2010 at 2:21 pm -      #85

    To be honest, I don’t think the new speed info makes much difference in the end.

    The empire might be able to win 95 out of 100 encounters, but those 5 losses will be terrible. We are talking about an oponent that by known facts alone outnumber the GE 2.66 to 1 in every equivalent unit. We know this because the GE occupies about 3/4 of a galaxy, while the ‘Nids had at the very least enough numbers to overrun one galaxy, and were able to produce 1,000,000,000,000^ units per planet consummed.

    This is not counting however many other galaxies suffered the same fate before.

    We are talking about a gargantuan foe that can replenish it’s fallen numbers indefinitely, or regenerate as it may need. A foe that employs suicidal tactics freely since its fallen minions will just be returned to the fold as delicious biosoup to remake yet another unit.

    This is like saying that a few hundred dirtbikers with buckets could have stopped the south asian tsunami….

    This new tidbit might make the Tyranid advance 9 times slower than it would have before, but out of the two, it is the only self-sustaining organism. The GE would eventually run out of resources, but more importantly, out of places to fall back from the great devourer.

  86. Whacko January 25, 2010 at 3:18 pm -      #86

    “It all depends on whom you analyze.

    The Imperium, Tau, Chaos forces and especially the Tyranids usually lose due to their inferior strategic mobility. The Eldar are fast, but are limited to where they can travel to thanks to the strategic placement of webway tunnels.”

    Most of 40K can make up for little strategic and tactical manouvreability with pure mass or extreme power, at least against a very large amount of enemies, although some are impossible to counter that way.

    But it’s not very uncommon to see universes laughing at the average 40K speed, allowing them to totally dominate through speed. So speed is the most common clincher.

    “The Necrons? Forget it, they have inertialess drives. A Necron tombship could be initially on the opposite side of the Galaxy and turn up on your next door step in the next nanosecond and there would be no noticeable time dilation.”

    Kind of the point, they’d own. And an eventual return of the Void Dragon would be very satisfying to see. Technology going rampant is not nice.

    Necrons are the one saving grace in speed in most 40K related debates.

  87. Jwlynas January 25, 2010 at 3:35 pm -      #87

    Necrons, Eldar and Dark Eldar.

    Never count out the Dark Eldar. What they lack in numbers, they make up for in sheer speed and control over their surroundings.

    They are fast enough to beat out Space Marines in combat rather easily and have good enough weapons that no shield can effectively stop them. Their major strength is of course with that ever loved warp. they travel through it easier than any other race, single troops able to traverse it with ease, and mandrakes jumping in out enough to give Nightcrawler a fit.

    Speed wise, them and Necrons are both capable or beating out most any other race, and eldar are a close second.

    Tyranids are far from them, but Mata makes a good point. The entire Nid collective is in this match. Every last one. Theres Not a lot that can be done against those numbers.

  88. shaun182 January 25, 2010 at 3:42 pm -      #88

    the problem is the nids are so slow moving by the time, the bulk of there forces have arrived, the empire would have centuries, to manfacture an overwhelming number of ships and new weapons technology to handle them.

  89. Whacko January 25, 2010 at 3:43 pm -      #89

    “Speed wise, them and Necrons are both capable or beating out most any other race, and eldar are a close second.”

    The Dark Eldar might have extreme speed as far as 40K goes, but they don’t get as much of a boost against other universes compared to the rest of 40K. Unless we count the Webway, I cannot remember the Dark Eldar having any advantage at all in long travels, really, they are more tactical.

  90. Jwlynas January 25, 2010 at 3:48 pm -      #90

    But why would we not count the webway? The Dark eldar live inside it, and are far better at leaving and entering than the Eldar. They have portable webway gates for that very reason.

    And if we’re talking combat speeds, again they are the fastest in the whole series, Necron included.

  91. Whacko January 25, 2010 at 3:54 pm -      #91

    The Webway isn’t all over the place, it needs to have constructed gates. And while i’ve heard about portable one, even these can’t be everywhere at once. And they don’t match Inertialess Drives.

    Combat speeds are tactical, and at this point the Dark Eldar obviously wins.

    While we’re at it, do the Dark Eldar, or normal Eldar for that matter, have Battleships? The Eldar got the Craftworlds, but do they have anything around Retribution size?

  92. L-W January 25, 2010 at 7:39 pm -      #92

    I’ve always known that the Tyranids were slow as molasses in space, but the fifth Codex has really opened my eyes to just how slow they really are. For example:

    A) I once thought Tyranids warped into system, it turns out that even the most minor of gravitational fluxes can really fuck with their FTL drives, which means that they have to exit outside of the furthest point and proceed towards a target at ludicrously low speeds. Whilst doing so it seems that the only way they can sneak upon the Imperium is to either sabotage local sensor arrays or just hope that the Warp shadow that they generate will be enough to mask their approach until it’s finally too late.

    B) Entire Hive Fleets have been shown to starve to death. No joke, apparently the Imperium have started to find vessels totally absent of life, with the crew compliment digested by the vessel which in turn starved to death after either becoming lost or simply taking too long to get anywhere.

  93. Jwlynas January 25, 2010 at 8:11 pm -      #93

    The webway has specific gates for the larger vehicles of the Eldar. Dark eldar aren’t bound by that. they live there, they know it inside and out. Thats why they’re so damn hard to pin down.

    If you want precedent, look to the warpspiders of Eldar, who can come and go from the webway as they so choose.

    As to the Tyranids, that whole “they starve to death” thing annoyed the hell out of me… It basically takes what was once a truly scary lifeform and demotes them massively. Not enough to be harmless, but it is actually feasible to starve a whole tendril just by either holding them at a distance or evacuating planets ahead of time and exterminatusing them when the tyranids make landfall.

    Sure, its not a long term strategy, but… The tyranids don’t go that fast and haven’t decided that the abilty to evolve some sort of hibernation and cut down on the metabolism would be a good idea… Stupid.

  94. TheSorrow January 25, 2010 at 8:21 pm -      #94

    I know this off topic, but I wish there were more information on the Void Dragon. Unless someone can tell me something about it. It interests me because it seems to be one of the most powerful beings in Warhammer 40K.

  95. Jwlynas January 25, 2010 at 8:37 pm -      #95

    Void dragon?

    Largest of the C’tan star vampires, and arguably most powerful. Imprisonder within Mars by the emperor and currently being worshipped as the Omnissiah/Machine God by the Adeptus Mechanicus. Is asleep at the moment, but Abaddon seems to find his presense there amusing, which could suggest his new plan is to wake up said Star Vampire.

  96. TheSorrow January 25, 2010 at 8:44 pm -      #96

    That’s about as much information I got from it. What I want to know is more about it’s history, not the whole C’tan, but it specifically.

  97. Jwlynas January 25, 2010 at 8:46 pm -      #97

    wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Void_Dragon

    Theres nothing to know about it that isn’t there. Have fun.

  98. TheSorrow January 25, 2010 at 8:57 pm -      #98

    Yep, that was the place I looked. Very little is known about it before it was thought to be bound on Mars.

  99. Jwlynas January 25, 2010 at 9:02 pm -      #99

    Thats the way Games Workshop tends to operate. The Horus Heresy Books are a huge change of pace for them, actually giving info on primarchs, that era of time, even the emperor and some of our beloved Chaos characters (Kharn and Abaddon turn up alot, as does lucius. they rock hard)

    Generally they like to keep the fans guessing, so there are more ways that the fans can incorporate their own stories into the world.

    Its a good thing usually, but it would be great to actually get some answers. the fact that the first solid answers we get are to questions asked 10’000 years ago really… it should have been expected. Still, better than nothing.

  100. TheSorrow January 25, 2010 at 9:14 pm -      #100

    I have to say my two favorite races are the Orks and the C’tan. Orks are the comic relief and their amazing ability of ,”The red wunz go fastah.” is just hilarious. The C’tan are just awesome… nuff’ said.

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