Goku Vs Itachi Uchiha

Goku (Dragonball Z) Vs Itachi Uchiha (Naruto)

Here is a match in which I’ll confess to not know much other than that Goku can go head to head with Superman, so that must mean something.

So, dear reader, who wins this fight?

Related Posts:

SHARE THIS POST

  • Facebook
  • Twitter
  • Myspace
  • Google Buzz
  • Reddit
  • Stumnleupon
  • Delicious
  • Digg
  • Technorati
Author: admin View all posts by
1 41 42 43

4,296 Comments on "Goku Vs Itachi Uchiha"

  1. Marcel March 26, 2013 at 5:49 pm -      #4201

    @ Tarbel
    -
    Saiyans have resisted mind games in the past, as well. E.g. Vegeta giving Babidi the boot.

  2. Kitten Lord March 26, 2013 at 5:55 pm -      #4202

    @Tarbel

    “From what I get:
    Ki increases durability to ki attacks.”

    Ok but what are these ki attacks? punches and energy blasts right? thinks hitting the body in some form, something that can in some form hurt the body general. Theres no real compatability between an energy blast or ki assisted punch and a Genjutsu is there?

    Also, how do you know Goku has “more” ki?

    @Dassadec

    “its a preview just like a commercial”

    Oh right, I thought that was actually just someone pirating a part of the movie for us to see.

    @Marcel

    “Saiyans have resisted mind games in the past”

    OK I guess this is an actual Vegeta feat but its better than most defences for Goku concering mind powers so far, is there a source scan I can see for this?

  3. Max81 March 26, 2013 at 5:58 pm -      #4203

    @tarbel
    it has been proven that genjutsu will slip through Goku’s ki, because goku’s ki is like ninjutsu, like the Raikage’s lightning armor. Remember thats why we proved this.
    -
    @Marcel
    the problme with your argument, is that unlike gnejutsu, babidi was using a magic that isn’t guarenteed to work.
    -

  4. Marcel March 26, 2013 at 6:09 pm -      #4204

    “OK I guess this is an actual Vegeta feat but its better than most defences for Goku concering mind powers so far, is there a source scan I can see for this?”
    -
    Yes, I can post the movie tomorrow (I will be at school till around 10 pm tonight, and the internet connection is lousy, so videos are extremely difficult)
    -
    “the problme with your argument, is that unlike gnejutsu, babidi was using a magic that isn’t guarenteed to work.”
    -
    Pray tell, how wasn’t it guaranteed to work, Max? Srsly, I am dying to know, as Babidi’s magic had an effect on everyone he encountered.

  5. Marcel March 26, 2013 at 6:12 pm -      #4205

    “Ok but what are these ki attacks? punches and energy blasts right? thinks hitting the body in some form, something that can in some form hurt the body general. Theres no real compatability between an energy blast or ki assisted punch and a Genjutsu is there?”
    -
    Ki has been used to manipulate outside sources before, e.g. Goku using small-scale telekinesis and reading minds.

  6. Kitten Lord March 26, 2013 at 6:15 pm -      #4206

    Right but it seems “reading minds” is the only thing close to Genjitsu, I am curious if anyone in DBZ clearly breaks off mind attacks/mind read clearly bcause of passive ki or not, I guess thats what I am most interested in.

    I dont know if its comparable to Genjitsu but anything, whether its a magical attack from babidi or a ki attack, as long as its mind based we can start comparing them.

  7. Mike March 26, 2013 at 6:20 pm -      #4207

    “it has been proven that genjutsu will slip through Goku’s ki, because goku’s ki is like ninjutsu, like the Raikage’s lightning armor. Remember thats why we proved this.”
    - proven….” You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.” – Inigo Montoya
    -
    -
    Yeah, pretty much the same “look this is cool so it means i proved something” going on…..

  8. Dassadec March 26, 2013 at 6:21 pm -      #4208

    @tarbel
    it has been proven that genjutsu will slip through Goku’s ki, because goku’s ki is like ninjutsu, like the Raikage’s lightning armor. Remember thats why we proved this.
    -
    My only issue with that is Raikage=/=Goku levels of Ki. Not even close. Raikage would likely lose 1v1 to 23rd budokai Goku in terms or speed, power, and Ki.

  9. Marcel March 26, 2013 at 6:22 pm -      #4209

    @ Kitten
    -
    In a very small nutshell, Vegeta gets tired of playing second-fiddle to Goku and turns to Babidi to amp up his powers. Babidi complies, and Vegeta grows stronger. However, the downside is that Vegeta voluntarily placed himself under Babidi’s mind control to gain said powers. However, growing tired of Babidi interfering with Vegeta’s agenda, Vegate throws Babidi out of his head, meanwhile still retaining the powers that Babidi had given him.
    -
    That’s extremely condensed. If questions arise, you’ll forgive my painting with a narrow brush, I hope.

  10. Dassadec March 26, 2013 at 6:22 pm -      #4210

    The @ tarbel part wasn’t wooded to be there.

  11. Tarbel March 26, 2013 at 7:01 pm -      #4211

    Lightning Release Armor used by the Raikage is stated to wrap a layer of lightning chakra around the body.
    This is like the ki shield Goku exhibits when displaying his power to Trunks.
    But ki in general reacts to ki as shown when Goku deflected a blast of ki with just a flash of his ki from his body.
    This ki is not found only out side of Goku’s body, but is within him as well, and a massive amount of it.
    -
    Also, you can only use Raikage’s case if he is shown to be susceptible to genjutsu. Show me a scan.

  12. Max81 March 26, 2013 at 7:16 pm -      #4212

    @tarbel
    narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/588/8
    shows genjutsu affects the raikage.
    -

  13. Tarbel March 26, 2013 at 7:44 pm -      #4213

    Susceptible to genjutsu with his Lightning Release Armor up.

  14. sadot06 March 26, 2013 at 8:12 pm -      #4214

    “Lightning Release Armor used by the Raikage is stated to wrap a layer of lightning chakra around the body.
    This is like the ki shield Goku exhibits when displaying his power to Trunks.
    But ki in general reacts to ki as shown when Goku deflected a blast of ki with just a flash of his ki from his body.
    This ki is not found only out side of Goku’s body, but is within him as well, and a massive amount of it.
    -
    Also, you can only use Raikage’s case if he is shown to be susceptible to genjutsu. Show me a scan.”
    ___________________________________
    The scan did show that. You can see the energy surrounding his body.

    But yeah I remember this exact conversation with Soul. You’re assuming genjutsu works like ninjutsu and general ki blasts in dragon ball z, so you’re citing examples of Goku using physical ki to block physical ki. Genjutsu isn’t ninjutsu. Ninjutsu falls under the category Yang release, which is physical energy i.e. a Rasengan, Yin release is mental energy, governing imagination and creating form from nothing. Genjutsu falls under this category. Combining the two is Yin-Yang release, which is how Shadow style and Izanagi work.

    manga.animea.net/naruto-chapter-510-page-11.html

  15. Soulerous March 26, 2013 at 9:34 pm -      #4215

    The genjutsu thing. It extends non-physical chakra into the target’s brain, which then controls the chakra in their cranial nerves to produce various effects. It won’t be simply halted by Goku’s own ki, for the ki does not repel it, but it is not able to control more than it has. Right now there is no proof of how much ki is in Goku’s brain compared to the rest of his body, which means that Goku should be affected just fine.
    ~
    The current issue though, is not of genjutsu. It is how quickly Goku could complete an examination of his opponent, specifically how quickly he could analyze Itachi’s chakra. Is he’s going to do this before attacking, so it just needs to be fast enough for him to kill Itachi before he gets snared by genjutsu.
    ~
    Burdon of proof is on you, you have to prove ki is hard to control by something elemantally compatible with this move” -No, I really don’t. I don’t care if it’s hard or not. I don’t care if it’s the easiest thing in the history of the universe. The burden of proof is on you to prove that genjutsu can control more chakra than it has before, or in other words, to do something that it has not done. I understand now. You have no argument. And as long as you have no argument I will be happy to not argue with you.

  16. Mike March 26, 2013 at 9:41 pm -      #4216

    quick question that brings up a point i have asked before and have yet to have a response to counter it…..
    -
    -
    why is genjutsu even being talked about much less thought to be a move that would give itachi some sort of advantage if goku’s use of ki is unhindered and he still would have ki sense? basically you are blinding a man who can fight and see without using sight. good luck with that changing anything other than itachi’s false sense of security of goku being disabled.

  17. Soulerous March 26, 2013 at 10:35 pm -      #4217

    @Mike- “quick question that brings up a point i have asked before and have yet to have a response to counter it…..
    -I believe it was proven that while Goku would of course retain his sixth sense, any actions taken, including use of ki and movement of body, would be false and happen only in the illusion Itachi would be creating. I don’t recall what the proof for this was, but I’m pretty sure I saw it.

  18. Dassadec March 26, 2013 at 10:51 pm -      #4218

    I still need to dig up the time naruto used a Rasengan on thin air while inside a genjutsu( Itachis). He ran ahead about25ft and used it where he thought itachi was.

  19. Tarbel March 26, 2013 at 11:47 pm -      #4219

    “-I believe it was proven that while Goku would of course retain his sixth sense, any actions taken, including use of ki and movement of body, would be false and happen only in the illusion Itachi would be creating. I don’t recall what the proof for this was, but I’m pretty sure I saw it.”
    -
    Proof for this was that Naruto didn’t move while under that specific look at just a finger genjutsu. When he was broken out of it, Kakashi and Itachi were fighting it out and Naruto was still standing where he was before despite having ran to attack Itachi in the genjutsu.
    More proof is that the genjutsu controls the 5 senses of the body to create illusions.
    -
    -
    -
    “All parties involved in a battle are made aware of the opposition and a general idea of their capabilities. This means that no combatant is assumed to be at a passive demeanor past the merging point. That does not mean, however, that combatants are made aware of the opposition’s strengths, weaknesses, or past history.”
    -
    Goku wouldn’t require much ki sensing as he wouldn’t get any more info about Itachi’s abilities unless he or Itachi attacks.

  20. therealbs March 26, 2013 at 11:52 pm -      #4220

    @mike
    “why is genjutsu even being talked about much less thought to be a move that would give itachi some sort of advantage if goku’s use of ki is unhindered and he still would have ki sense? basically you are blinding a man who can fight and see without using sight. good luck with that changing anything other than itachi’s false sense of security of goku being disabled.”

    if goku is proven to be vulnerable to Genjutsu itachi wins this fight due to izanami and tsukoyomi in less than a second. goku would get time to analyze his opponent.

    @ dassadec managa chapters 258-260 it shows itachi’s genjutsu abilities nicely.

  21. Soulerous March 27, 2013 at 12:32 am -      #4221

    Proof for this was that Naruto…” -Good, thank you. And I also remember a scan where it was stated that the genjutsu caster controls the chakra in your head. Though I suppose that could have been literal, referring to the cranial nerves, that’s not how it struck me.
    ~
    Goku wouldn’t require much ki sensing as he wouldn’t get any more info about Itachi’s abilities unless he or Itachi attacks.
    -I’m thinking it would be quick as looking at him, I just don’t know of any proof for this. I’m still in the middle of watching Dragon Ball, not yet delved into Z.

  22. Mike March 27, 2013 at 8:01 am -      #4222

    “-I believe it was proven that while Goku would of course retain his sixth sense, any actions taken, including use of ki and movement of body, would be false and happen only in the illusion Itachi would be creating. I don’t recall what the proof for this was, but I’m pretty sure I saw it.”
    -that doesn’t even make sense.
    -
    -
    “I still need to dig up the time naruto used a Rasengan on thin air while inside a genjutsu( Itachis). He ran ahead about25ft and used it where he thought itachi was.”
    -this is what goku would be able to do except he would still know where itachi is.
    -
    -
    “if goku is proven to be vulnerable to Genjutsu itachi wins this fight due to izanami and tsukoyomi in less than a second.”
    -nothing about izanami would put goku down, and using tsukoyomi would leave goku in the same predicament as using a regular genjutsu. knowing exactly where itachi is and being able to use his ki to attack.
    -
    -
    “Proof for this was that Naruto didn’t move while under that specific look at just a finger genjutsu. When he was broken out of it, Kakashi and Itachi were fighting it out and Naruto was still standing where he was before despite having ran to attack Itachi in the genjutsu.
    More proof is that the genjutsu controls the 5 senses of the body to create illusions.”
    -again, that makes no sense. that’s only affecting naruto’s 5 senses to make him think it’s real, goku has a 6th sense that is just as good as a couple of the regulars. when goku goes to move, he will know he didn’t move via relation to things around him. he could actually just move himself solely with his ki, and does this all the time with flying anyways. using ki blasts/explosions would then be easy to use also. genjutsu will do nothing to hamper goku in any meaningful way.
    -
    -
    so once again, no counter to just using ki sense and his ki to take out itachi even if it was possible to put him into a genjutsu(for which has also not been proven……..).

  23. Kitten Lord March 27, 2013 at 8:57 am -      #4223

    Soulerous

    “The burden of proof is on you to prove that genjutsu can control more chakra than it has before”

    Wow you really dont get it, “prove Genjutsu can control more Chakra”, your premise being youve already proven (where?) that “amount” of Chakra is relevent…..or more importantly, amount of “ki”, I doubting ki and Chakra are even closely related concering actual moves and attacks, how they use Chakra in their techniques seems very different to the generally “physical” blows from DBZ.

    But I understand now, you want to push for the no limit fallacy of ki being some sort of difficult force for an unknown move/technique its never been compared to or gauged by.

    “so it just needs to be fast enough for him to kill Itachi before he gets snared by genjutsu.”

    And what chance does Goku have if all Itachi has to do is look at him/will the use of Genjutsu? Goku has to travel the distance between them and punch with enough force to kill itachi, while Itachi has to do what, lock eyes with Goku or something?

  24. Storm117 March 27, 2013 at 11:22 am -      #4224

    @soul
    here is a read-up
    -
    narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/259/9
    its is indeed litteraly, genjutsu controls the chakra in the cranial nerves.
    -
    so basically the question is how fast will goku know about Itachi’s chakra?
    -
    that answer is simple.
    -
    Goku has an ability known as Ki sense, it works much like the Scouters in Dbz. Goku does’nt even have to look at Itachi, he just can detect how much power his opponnet has, and the position the opponent is at.
    -
    www.dragonballencyclopedia.com/wiki/Ki_Sense
    -
    so basically both opponents will know how much power the other has at the start of the battle,
    -
    problem being one(itachi) just has to move his hand, or have his opponent look him the eye.
    the other will have to make the first move and attack without.
    1. letting Itachi move his hand
    2. without lookint Itachi in the eye.
    so yeah not much of a chance for Goku to kill Itachi off the bat.
    -
    no one can claim, as soon as the gun starts Goku blitzes itachi instantly. I mean he didn’t do that to Billz and he didn’t do that Ginyu force, androids, buu, kid buu, cell, uub, vegeta, nappa, or krillin,
    -
    not to mention it has been decided that the battle will take place in the Cell games arena, this creates a nice distance between the two opponents.
    -
    if it just in terms of who will act first its pretty obvious its Itachi, since he just needs to activate his sharingan or move his hand.

  25. Amm0vamp1r3 March 27, 2013 at 1:49 pm -      #4225

    Beating Rand al thor now lol,History has been made

  26. PrimusxPilus March 27, 2013 at 1:55 pm -      #4226

    @ammo
    And what’s the outcome? This pointless BS thread of a debate has gone NOWHERE. It’s not even “a lone holdout” deal. History made sure, but not the good kind. It’s a testament to the failure to debate and sway. This isn’t worth being up there but it is…. It is.

  27. Kitten Lord March 27, 2013 at 1:56 pm -      #4227

    @Storm117

    “if it just in terms of who will act first its pretty obvious its Itachi, since he just needs to activate his sharingan or move his hand.”


    I can see the sense in this based on last few pages.

    @Ammo

    “Beating Rand al thor now lol,History has been made”

    I dont get that feeling yet, probably because Ive only been here a while but why is it exciting when a trhead climbs the “popular posts”

  28. Amm0vamp1r3 March 27, 2013 at 2:01 pm -      #4228

    Oh no its not good history,but it is History,lets say it is a feat that will go down in infamy.
    -
    @Kitten
    -
    I think it only excites me because I have always wanted to see it change

  29. Kitten Lord March 27, 2013 at 2:11 pm -      #4229

    Oh right, why? :)

    Does it matter where it is on the popular posts ranking?

  30. Max81 March 27, 2013 at 2:15 pm -      #4230

    What is the debate waiting for?
    -
    i mean apparetnly i missed Genjutsu being proved effective since Soul said it is no longer an issue,
    -
    is it just waiting on everyone people agreeing to Storms post?
    -
    and then we vote and then hopefully it all ends.
    =
    if so i will be very happy.
    -
    if not then we have another 1,000 painful comments to go through

  31. Amm0vamp1r3 March 27, 2013 at 2:19 pm -      #4231

    @KittenLord
    -
    No it doesn’t matter where it is,I just wanted something new to be up there,especially if I am/was a big part of it
    -

  32. Doktor Doctor March 27, 2013 at 2:27 pm -      #4232

    Holy fucking shit, this surpassed Rand al’Thor vs Richard Rahl?!

  33. Amm0vamp1r3 March 27, 2013 at 2:29 pm -      #4233

    Yes with the same basic formula,Neither side wants to budge on their opinion

  34. sadot06 March 27, 2013 at 3:21 pm -      #4234

    It’s pretty amazing. Especially since it was a poorly chosen debate to begin with.

  35. Max81 March 27, 2013 at 3:25 pm -      #4235

    though you all have to admit, that once this is settles we all will have settled one of the biggest question in all of anime?
    -
    believe it or not this thing is realy bigger than Goku vs superman.
    -

  36. Kitten Lord March 27, 2013 at 3:28 pm -      #4236

    “that once this is settles ”

    If this settles :)

  37. Storm117 March 27, 2013 at 3:30 pm -      #4237

    I’ll be back in another month, this probably will still be debated then.
    -

  38. Soulerous March 27, 2013 at 9:21 pm -      #4238

    @Kitten Lord- “Wow you really dont get it
    ~
    It’s possible. I never assume I have a perfect knowledge of things. I do find myself to be generally adept at understanding what others are arguing, though. Good arguments can always sway me. Saying that controlling a tiny amount of chakra in someone’s brain and controlling a different amount are not different things because we don’t know if ki is easier or harder to manipulate is not a good argument.
    ~
    your premise being youve already proven (where?) that “amount” of Chakra is relevent
    -It is logic that proves the amount is relevant. The fact that one amount is more than what Itachi has controlled means that Itachi has not controlled that amount. Therefore he has not been proven capable of it. Therefore we don’t know that he can do it. Therefore he cannot do it in this fight. There’s also the fact that more ki is more difficult to control. How is that not proof that the amount is relevant? Are you saying that genjutsu takes no effort no matter what? The amount of chakra not mattering is what needs proof.
    ~
    Perhaps you are saying we need proof that ki is not significantly easier to control than chakra? We’d only need that if chakra were proven to have a certain difficulty. But there is no way to prove which energy is easier or harder to control. They both revert to base difficulty and rise from there, for there is no established base like there is with, for example, lifting weights. We know neither the “musculature” of the characters nor the base “weight” of the energy. I am done discussing this. You still have no argument.
    ~
    @Storm117- “Goku has an ability known as Ki sense, it works much like the Scouters in Dbz. Goku does’nt even have to look at Itachi, he just can detect how much power his opponnet has, and the position the opponent is at.
    -I know about it, I just don’t have proof of how fast it is.
    ~
    problem being one(itachi) just has to move his hand, or have his opponent look him the eye.”
    ~
    “if it just in terms of who will act first its pretty obvious its Itachi, since he just needs to activate his sharingan or move his hand.

    ~
    Both Goku and Itachi will be attacking almost instantly, and the “almost” comes from the fact that they won’t attack before they actually register their opponent. The difference is that Goku can process things at a faster rate. Saying Itachi can move his hand/activate his sharingan before Goku can move 15 yards and punch, or lift his own hand and loose an energy attack, is the problem here. I’d just like to know if Itachi is fast enough to take that action before Goku, because I’m fairly certain Goku is significantly faster.
    ~
    But if Itachi does catch him in genjutsu, he should be able to burn him away with Amaterasu. If he gets him in Tsukuyomi there is a chance Goku can still kill him before he collapses. Unless he follows it with more genjutsu right afterward.
    ~
    This is boring me now. I’ll leave it be. That is, I’ll try to leave it be.

  39. Mike March 27, 2013 at 9:30 pm -      #4239

    “-I know about it, I just don’t have proof of how fast it is.”
    -fast enough to effectively fight while moving at hypersonic speeds. if you go by that one link put up showing nanosecond reaction times, it is that fast then.
    -
    -
    “But if Itachi does catch him in genjutsu, he should be able to burn him away with Amaterasu. ”
    -since my response was completely ignored, i’ll say it again. goku having control of his ki + ki sense makes genjutsu completely useless. “if” itachi gets goku in a genjutsu, goku just blasts him and or moves around, or even just flies into itachi at mach 200+(or whatever). genjutsu is a completely useless technique when it doesn’t stop the opponent from being able to know where you are, move, or attack in many ways. especially when any attack will be lethal.

  40. Soulerous March 27, 2013 at 9:36 pm -      #4240

    since my response was completely ignored, i’ll say it again. goku having control of his ki + ki sense makes genjutsu completely useless.
    -Thing is though, you seem to be ignoring the fact that being in genjutsu means you can’t actually do the things you think you’re doing. How did you justify that again?

  41. Mike March 27, 2013 at 9:37 pm -      #4241

    it only affects the 5 senses, not the ki sense or the actual use of the ki. so goku would still know the real world through it, and be able to attack and move to the right spots because of it.

  42. Soulerous March 27, 2013 at 10:08 pm -      #4242

    I think it does affect the use of the ki. Maybe someone more knowledgeable than me can show you.

  43. Mike March 27, 2013 at 10:22 pm -      #4243

    the scan said only the 5 senses, hence why that time naruto used a chakra move while in genjutsu was brought up. nothing shown so far has shown it affects anyother senses or the use of the ki.

  44. Marcel March 28, 2013 at 1:53 am -      #4244

    Alright, I promised I would post this today, though it is late. Vegeta vs mind control:
    -
    www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ulihqwxtb-c
    -
    Vegeta +1

  45. Commander Cross March 28, 2013 at 1:59 am -      #4245

    @Senior Praetor Primus at #4226

    Had this fight been Post-NJO Luke Skywalker vs Goku, it would have been far more understandable if a thread like this could last this long.

    As it is, it doesn’t make sense, that’s like saying Ovan from the dot hack universe would auto-beat EoS Dresden because Ovan’s MAD has more AOE and Abilities that are confirmed.
    While part of me might like to think Ovan stands a chance against merely Post-Changes Dresden, even I wouldn’t be so nuts as to hope it gets posted.

  46. sadot06 March 28, 2013 at 4:11 am -      #4246

    “I think it does affect the use of the ki. Maybe someone more knowledgeable than me can show you.”

    ___________________________
    The claim about Naruto using a rasengan was mentioned, but no evidence was provided. Refer to the videos I showed you about Itachi’s genjutsu activation. Specifically his fight with Sasuke.

  47. Soulerous March 28, 2013 at 4:44 am -      #4247

    Refer to the videos I showed you about Itachi’s genjutsu activation. Specifically his fight with Sasuke.” -Augh…
    ~
    Would you just link the videos and times for Mike? As I said, I want to try and extricate myself from this debate. I only got into in the first place because it looked complicated.

  48. Mike March 28, 2013 at 8:22 am -      #4248

    “Refer to the videos I showed you about Itachi’s genjutsu activation. Specifically his fight with Sasuke.”
    -the only videos on the last 3 pages(including this one) that had the term activate/activation in the post or near it talking about it was in post 4120 and did not show anything about not using chakra or any 6th sense.
    -
    -
    the scan specifically said the 5 senses, so unless you have definitive evidence that it affects others or the ability to use chakra then your argument is a moot point.

  49. Kitten Lord March 28, 2013 at 9:00 am -      #4249

    @Soulerous

    -

    “There’s also the fact that more ki is more difficult to control. How is that not proof that the amount is relevant? Are you saying that genjutsu takes no effort no matter what? The amount of chakra not mattering is what needs proof.”

    “Sigh” and here lies the root of the problem, you keep saying ki is more difficult to control, but to what? The person controlling their own ki to create their own desired effect? And I am saying Genjutsu takes as much effort controlling “amount” as its universe suggests, I have yet to see that assertion that it has problem with more “Chakra” in a person being presented.

    You seem to think argueing that “more ki is too hard to control for Genjutsu” is logical but you dont seem to know if “more chakra” is the case, where does it say this? You keep handwaving away by saying “hes never done it” as if that proves Genjutsu would have a problem with Gokus ki, which literally has “never” even been compared to a non physical move like this it seems.

    “there is no way to prove which energy is easier or harder to control”

    Its not even necesserily about controlling personal energy, its about controlling through a special techinque someone else “through” their energy, theres no real precdent for “amount” of a resource even being relevent, and certainly only vague comments of “well Gokus universe can blow up moar!” to say Goku, for some reason has too much ki in his mind, you realise ki doesnt “passively” blow up “moar” right? It has to be channeled to fire those planet blasting things, so why would relaxed ki in the mind be of any relevence to how much Goku can bust?

    ” Saying Itachi can move his hand/activate his sharingan before Goku can move 15 yards and punch, or lift his own hand and loose an energy attack, is the problem here”

    No not really, Goku has to do a lot more, as per the fight against Bills 15 yards/punch being faster than Itachi just moving his hand would require you assuming Itachi is really slow.

  50. Soulerous March 28, 2013 at 2:51 pm -      #4250

    here lies the root of the problem, you keep saying ki is more difficult to control, but to what?
    -As I said, I don’t care how difficult it may or may not be. If someone hasn’t done it, they can’t do it.
    ~
    And I am saying Genjutsu takes as much effort controlling “amount” as its universe suggests, I have yet to see that assertion that it has problem with more “Chakra” in a person being presented.
    -You’re saying because genjutsu has only been shown to take a certain degree of effort that it would take the same amount of effort for anyone, no matter their power? That is called a No-Limits Fallacy. Had you forgotten?
    ~
    You keep handwaving away by saying “hes never done it” as if that proves Genjutsu would have a problem with Gokus ki, which literally has “never” even been compared to a non physical move like this it seems.
    -Goku’s ki doesn’t need to be compared to a move like this. This has nothing to do with that. I don’t need to prove that genjutsu has a problem with Goku’s ki. You need to prove that it can function on that amount of ki.
    ~
    theres no real precdent for “amount” of a resource even being relevent” -Of course there is. You seem to not know how BankGambling works. Controlling that amount of the resource in question is something that Itachi has not done. Thus he cannot.
    ~
    and certainly only vague comments of “well Gokus universe can blow up moar!” to say Goku, for some reason has too much ki in his mind, you realise ki doesnt “passively” blow up “moar” right?
    -Are you “spelling” out “moar” in order to “imply” something about “myself?” I don’t believe anyone besides you has written the word “moar” on this thread. Nor do I see how the time and place at which ki detonates objects has to do with genjutsu failing to manipulate a certain amount.
    ~
    It has to be channeled to fire those planet blasting things, so why would relaxed ki in the mind be of any relevence to how much Goku can bust?
    -I’m not going to start a different topic of debate with you at this time. I’m not debating how much ki Goku has in his body. I’m trying to explain to you that if Itachi’s genjutsu has not controlled an amount greater than what it has controlled, then it cannot.
    ~
    Do I know, even now, that I am wasting my time? Of course. I understand that completely. You will not cease to believe things that contradict how this site works, but I have a habit of trying to correct people. Sometimes I do so against my better judgement.

  51. Marcel March 28, 2013 at 2:58 pm -      #4251

    “No not really, Goku has to do a lot more, as per the fight against Bills 15 yards/punch being faster than Itachi just moving his hand would require you assuming Itachi is really slow.”
    -
    I think the problem, Kitten, is that you in turn are assuming Goku is really slow. So what if Itachi is faster than an average human? Perhaps (if conclusion can even be drawn in the series) Itachi is even a bullet timer. Let’s assume he is, just for a moment. If Itachi can react to and move out of the way of a bullet’s path, that still puts him far below Dragonball Goku’s level of speed (that’s his absolute baseline kid form). From only 15 meters Goku could very easily blitz Itachi before Itachi even has time to react.

  52. PrimusxPilus March 28, 2013 at 4:14 pm -      #4252

    @soul
    -
    As long as you understand you’re wasting your time. I see you’ve experienced “kitten logic” firsthand.

  53. Kitten Lord March 28, 2013 at 4:35 pm -      #4253

    @Soulerous

    “As I said, I don’t care how difficult it may or may not be. If someone hasn’t done it, they can’t do it.”

    Who are you to argue that? lol, if someone hasnt done it they cant…..theres a lot of things characters have not done, you dont even know if amount of ki is relevent to this technique or how they will interact. We know how Genjitsu works, e.g. its result being some sort of domination, but we dont know if ki has any relation to that or if its ever faced it before. Saying “well goku has a lot of ki, its bound to protect him!” doesnt cut it. Some characters have a lot of magic, that does not mean anyone with less “magical power” genrally cant use any magical ability or technique no matter how unique to harm or affect them.

    “degree of effort that it would take the same amount of effort for anyone, no matter their power?”

    Wrong, this is not a question of power. Its a question of resistance. Goku just does not have the feats to suggest he can resist a technique like this. How “powerful” someone is, is objective, someone can bust a planet but if theyve got no resistance to mind control, soul attacks or time manipulation how much they can blow up means little.


    “Goku’s ki doesn’t need to be compared to a move like this”

    lol why? You just complained about a no limit fallacy and now your suggesting Gokus ki doesnt have to be compared to an attack/technique before he can defend against it, does Goku having a lot of ki just automatically mean it can protect him against anything? No matter the technique? The logic/premise here is a no limit fallacy.

    “I’m not debating how much ki Goku has in his body”

    Then why do you keep bringing up “amounts” for how much Itachi could control? You dont have much idea about amounts and just then your telling me your not debating amounts but now you are, contradiction after contradiction.

    “I have a habit of trying to correct people. Sometimes I do so against my better judgement.”

    Tell me about it, you and me both apparently.

    @Marcel

    “I think the problem, Kitten, is that you in turn are assuming Goku is really slow”

    How? I have a source that shows Goku cant actually cover 15 or so meters as fast some people claim, or that he even would to be honest. Goku seems to have a thing about words before a fight, theres a gap between what Itachi has to do and what Goku has to do to win, Goku has to cover a lot more ground and make more movements/decisions than Itachi apprently has, whos action apparently concerins just moving a hand.

    @Primus

    “As long as you understand you’re wasting your time. I see you’ve experienced “kitten logic” firsthand.”

    Its better logic than the “jump into a thread, make a fallacious sentence then disapear without saying anything worth saying” logic :D

    Infact thats almost infringing on trolling.

  54. Max81 March 28, 2013 at 8:03 pm -      #4254

    @soul
    I think you missed my post.
    -
    What is the debate waiting for?
    -
    i mean apparetnly i missed Genjutsu being proved effective since Soul said it is no longer an issue,
    -
    is it just waiting on everyone people agreeing to Storms post?
    -
    and then we vote and then hopefully it all ends.
    =
    if so i will be very happy.
    -
    if not then we have another 1,000 painful comments to go through

  55. Soulerous March 28, 2013 at 9:50 pm -      #4255

    @PrimusxPilus- “As long as you understand you’re wasting your time. I see you’ve experienced “kitten logic” firsthand.
    -Next time this happens, feel free to remind me. I will say “You’re right, I wouldn’t want to waste posting space arguing over obvious concepts!”
    ~
    Can I help myself? Often not.
    ~
    @Max81- “I think you missed my post.” -I didn’t miss it. The argument between Kitten Lord and I spawned from him not knowing how these things work. I’ve been trying to explain. The real issue is if Goku could succeed in killing Itachi before the latter could act. Fast as he is, I believe he could.
    ~
    @Kitten Lord- “Who are you to argue that?
    -Someone who knows. You don’t, which is why you have clashed so often with good debaters for prolonged periods of time. Here, have a read:
    ~
    “Only the instances that can be proven regarding these No Limit elements will be considered for a final victory, while subsequent speculation on what the element in question may or may not be ultimately capable of may be ignored.” -BankGambling Debating Rules, 310.
    ~
    Wrong, this is not a question of power. Its a question of resistance. Goku just does not have the feats to suggest he can resist a technique like this.
    -Sorry, that’s wrong. In fact you have it backwards. This has nothing to do with Goku resisting genjutsu. This has to do with the fact that unless Itachi has controlled the equivalent of the great amount of ki that Goku supposedly has in his cranial nerves, he cannot do it. Because he doesn’t have the feats to back it up. Is this so incredibly difficult to comprehend?
    ~
    That’s all the argument ever was. Never was it suggested that Goku would resist genjutsu. Block it with a technique, sure. Resist it? No. Have too much ki for Itachi to control? Yes. Not counteract it through some ability of his own.
    ~
    someone can bust a planet but if theyve got no resistance to mind control
    -This has nothing to do with resistance to mind control.
    ~
    does Goku having a lot of ki just automatically mean it can protect him against anything? No matter the technique?
    -My word. The whole time I thought you understood this. Listen, Goku is not resisting genjutsu. That whole line of thinking has never been a part of this argument. Understand? There is no resisting going on. There is controlling of chakra. By Itachi. Itachi has controlled 5 chakra. He has not controlled 50.
    ~
    If he could control 50, Goku would then need to resist or fall pray to it. Since Itachi cannot control 50, Goku doesn’t need to resist it because it won’t work in the first place. I suggest you accept this one and only point I have been trying to explain, for it is the way things work. The sooner you acknowledge the rules, the better your BankGambling experience will be and the less others will be frustrated.

  56. Soulerous March 28, 2013 at 9:52 pm -      #4256

    “BankGambling Debating Rules, 310.” -Should be “#10.”

  57. Kitten Lord March 29, 2013 at 8:20 am -      #4257

    @Soulerous

    “so often with good debaters ”

    Must have missed it. I generally remember the ones who like to cling to fallacies or use undertermined values or their opinions on them as facts :)

    “Here, have a read:”

    I did, it does not change your case. Your debating for the “no limit” in this regard, hell you dont really know the limit or number to be honest at all, your just saying “ki is more” (how?) and “more” is “too much”, I am not talking about limits but what the limit your trying to argue for actually is or means.

    “Have too much ki for Itachi to control? Yes”

    Show me this, too much “ki” please. Again your using a debate of ignorance, you dont really know how much ki has in comparison to chakra, you dont know if “too much ki” even means anything. I made an analogy concerning water earlier which you seemed to ignore but its basically what your doing, your using the destructive potential of Gokus ki when he uses it for a purpose to argue its “too much” for itachi when its just still, and its small percentage is in Gokus head. I have asked time and time again for your evidence on Itachi struggling with “more” Chakra, as if the amount of the resource is in question at all but you just keep saying “its more than Itachi has controlled!” but you dont have much of a gauge for this from what I have seen.

    “This has nothing to do with resistance to mind control.”

    Dont try and handwave the point i was making, you know full well what your doing, your just using “lots of ki” for a fall in for resistance. Ill try a different tact, based on your logic, someone with more powerful mind powers, automatically has immunity to mind powers? Someone who has more powerful magic powers has immunity to anyones magic powers below their level? no….you can sort of argue similiar precedant for ki, even if you think Goku has more powerful ki than anyone Itachi has controlled the Chakra of, youve still not made the correlation between too much ki/chakra being the case any more than my two examples above in this text suggest.

    “There is controlling of chakra. By Itachi. Itachi has controlled 5 chakra. He has not controlled 50.”

    Your precedant being this “50″ is harder to control than the 5 right? But you dont really have much explanation why, just that 50 is a bigger number? or ergo, there is “larger” ki, again I dont think youve yet to grasp what I am saying.

    “Goku doesn’t need to resist it because it won’t work in the first place”

    Why wont it work? again youve not really exaplined this other than “but Goku has moar ki!”, youve not made muc hof a correlation between “more” and “not enough” for it to be too much for Itachi, not sure we know what “too much” is.

    “The sooner you acknowledge the rules, the better your BankGambling experience will be and the less others will be frustrated.”

    Yeah this has not been a discussion of rules, its been a discussion of logic that your not quite grasping. Ill leave a different morale sentence, the beter you or those “frustrated” individuals underestand basic logic, and realise fallacies are not arguments then people like yourself and those who get all upset especially in Goku debates thus far (probably where the more prevailent fanbase I have twisted the nerves of so far come from) the less youll incur my red pen, you realise i only come when I see bad logic, I am ont massively interested whether Itachi wins or not, but if he loses because enough DBZ fans said “moar ki is too much!” then thats not fair on the character or in other cases in some threads just because more DBZ fans claim something fanciful.

    ““BankGambling Debating Rules, 310.” -Should be “#10.””

    Maybe, a lot of those fallacies need to be higher up the list to be honest, the amount of times I feel like the thread is buried in them by people who try and claim their points are clever or their side is the most logical I cant count, Dassadec and Primus I am looking at you :D

  58. sadot06 March 29, 2013 at 8:34 am -      #4258

    “Sorry, that’s wrong. In fact you have it backwards. This has nothing to do with Goku resisting genjutsu. This has to do with the fact that unless Itachi has controlled the equivalent of the great amount of ki that Goku supposedly has in his cranial nerves, he cannot do it. Because he doesn’t have the feats to back it up. Is this so incredibly difficult to comprehend?”
    ___________________________________
    I think this is where you and the Goku side are wrong. Their side originally made this claim but they passed the burden of proof on to us, when it is in fact on them. You can’t say prove Itachi can control that much chakra/ki when there is A. No evidence Goku has a lot of chakra/ki in his brain, specifically his cranial nerves, and B. No given numerical value or amount of ki that Itachi needs to control.

  59. Kitten Lord March 29, 2013 at 8:35 am -      #4259

    Ok this is going in circles anyway, lets wrap this up in a couple of posts;

    I ask for the following for the premise that ki is going to be too high for Itachi;

    Number 1- the correlation between Chakra and Ki, before you say ki is just going to be too much, I want to see where the universe of Naruto says “enough” chakra is too much for Genjutsu to control. I still feel like the base resource for using their attacks is being used as a protection against almost anything. Not all techniques in fiction have to overule a specific amount of the resource that made them, even if your controlling part of someone elses resource, the power of the resource is irrelevent if it does not even act as some difficult to control barrier for that person. Hence why how intelligent someone is does not necesserily effect how hard it is for someone else to mind control you or how magically powerful someone is does not make them immune to various elements or other magic just because their use of magic is more impressive.

    Number 2- What is too much?

    What are the DBZers using as a gauge for how much more ki Goku has in his cranium? I dont think I have seen much evidence for ki being directed to the brain or thought processes, the only thing I can see a use for ki in that area is when they use it to detect eachothers ki as they fight. But how do you know this ki is more than Itachis chakra anyway? Soulerous seems ot be pretty consistent in the belief that Goku is “higher” than what Itachi has faced…..

  60. Mike March 29, 2013 at 9:43 am -      #4260

    well since no one is addressing my posts and or countering them i will just assume there is no counter to them and accept the itachi side’s concession.
    -
    -
    now on to the apparently pointless topics being discussed; might as well try and educate kitten as soulerous is attempting also.
    -
    -
    “I did, it does not change your case. Your debating for the “no limit” in this regard, hell you dont really know the limit or number to be honest at all, your just saying “ki is more” (how?) and “more” is “too much”, I am not talking about limits but what the limit your trying to argue for actually is or means.”
    -since mumbo jumbo techniques are not comparable we are using the destructive forces of each to gague the levels of the chakra/ki in each combatant. clearly goku has many orders of magnitude more than anyone in naruto. now since itachi could not have used a technique that controls/manipulates/alters another’s chakra/ki with the same amount in them as goku, you cannot say that he could control/manipulate/alter that much chakra/ki. think of it as itachi has the power to control another’s sight, by controlling each eye, and has shown to control someone with up to 8 eyes, controlling each before; when put up against someone with 1million eyes, you cannot say he could control all of the eyes and thus control their sight. hopefully narrowing it down to one of the five senses has helped get our point across better.
    -
    -
    “Show me this, too much “ki” please”
    -that has been shown many times now, you do not need another example.
    -
    -
    “Again your using a debate of ignorance, you dont really know how much ki has in comparison to chakra, you dont know if “too much ki” even means anything.”
    -how about i just turn this logic back at you……how do you know that too much ki doesn’t mean anything?
    -
    -
    “your using the destructive potential of Gokus ki when he uses it for a purpose to argue its “too much” for itachi when its just still, and its small percentage is in Gokus head.”
    -the destructive force of both ki and chakra are the only things we can compare between the two, if you know of another common variable between the two then by all means bring it up.
    -it’s a smaller percentage in naruto characters as well, mainly because of the logic of it being a smaller area. the thing is though that we have already shown in feats that dbz ki is spread throughout the body through the feat of the 100g training, and have shown it to be flowing from the anime/manga. so both franchises chakra flows through them and we know dbz’s is heavily concentrated at least somewhat evenly because it passively makes the entirety of the body more durable.
    -
    -
    ” I have asked time and time again for your evidence on Itachi struggling with “more” Chakra, as if the amount of the resource is in question at all but you just keep saying “its more than Itachi has controlled!” but you dont have much of a gauge for this from what I have seen.”
    -there is no need to show he cannot do more than what he has shown. if there is nothing showing he can do a certain amount, then all we can say for a fact is that he can control the amount in his best feat that is shown. speculation is all you have if no info is there other than feats for the amount of chakra he can control.
    -
    -
    ” Ill try a different tact, based on your logic, someone with more powerful mind powers, automatically has immunity to mind powers?”
    -i did not see that logic anywhere in his posts, but i do think i see where you misunderstood his logic.
    -it’s more like, someone with more mind power is automatically immune to someone with less mind power if the mind power relys on directly affecting the other’s mind power. especially if the greater amount of mind power guy has far more than anyone the lesser has ever affected before.
    -
    -
    “Your precedant being this “50″ is harder to control than the 5 right? But you dont really have much explanation why, just that 50 is a bigger number? or ergo, there is “larger” ki, again I dont think youve yet to grasp what I am saying. ”
    -itachi has controlled naruto guys(5)
    -goku is a dbz guy(50)
    -itachi has not had the chance in canon to see if he could control 50 yet, thus we cannot say that he can. unless some rule of how genjutsu works comes out showning power is not an issue at all, then itachi cannot be shown to affect more than he has shown to. non power based abilities do exist in fiction, i can think of two now that wouldn’t matter if thor’s hammer with odin force was being used against it, the hammer would not even affect it and would be gone(subtractive magic and balefire, from SoT and WoT).
    -
    -
    “Why wont it work? again youve not really exaplined this other than “but Goku has moar ki!”, youve not made muc hof a correlation between “more” and “not enough” for it to be too much for Itachi, not sure we know what “too much” is. ”
    -you are missing the point. he is saying in the quote you took from him that the actual reason that the genjutsu will not work in this case is not because of goku doing anything, but because of itachi not being able to. like itachi trying to lift a rock in goku’s hand, and goku not having to fight back by pushing down because the rock is too heavy for itachi to begin with.
    -
    -
    “(probably where the more prevailent fanbase I have twisted the nerves of so far come from)”
    -TBH….you haven’t really made on lick of sense or made one logical point for the most part in the two dbz related threads i’ve seen you in…..but, whatever, at least you are a newcomer still learning the fine points of debating.
    -
    -
    @sadot06
    -no you are completely wrong on that. claiming that itachi can do something on a scale of unknown proportions(either way) is a positive claim on your part. to ask the goku supporters to prove their point IS to ask us to tell you, you have no proof.

  61. Kitten Lord March 29, 2013 at 10:47 am -      #4261

    @Mike

    “since mumbo jumbo techniques are not comparable we are using the destructive forces of each to gague the levels of the chakra/ki in each combatant”

    I thought so, your basically doing what I said was daft before, Goku can bust planets which is more than anyone in Naruto has shown to do, therefore he is automatically somehow too much for this technique. Destructive feats are not the result of passive ki which is relevent since thats whats apparently being controlled here.

    “now since itachi could not have used a technique that controls/manipulates/alters another’s chakra/ki with the same amount in them as goku”

    Is there a source for this? its all well and good saying Itachi cant control more Chakra than hes shown if its a general fact more Chakra is actually more difficult to control but you cant say for sure if this is not the case. Your example concering eyes is a pretty weird analogy but if all 1 million eyes were controlled by the exact same nerves at once as the lesser number of eyes then the number is irrelevent.

    “how do you know that too much ki doesn’t mean anything?”

    I dont, but I dont need to. Burdon of proof is on the positive, e.g. that ki “does” mean something. If you want to play that game as I said, I am neutral, I dont care who wins, point being though Genutsu has an X effect, this effect happens unless its negated by something, if what someone thinks negates it doesnt actually negate anything then their wrong.

    “another common variable between the two then by all means bring it up.”

    You see I dont have to, as I said in one of the other threads. Just admitting you dont know is better than making a fallacy.

    “it passively makes the entirety of the body more durable.”

    Thats only one factor though, physical durability. We dont know how the actual ki works to something that doesnt bother with physical durability.

    “there is nothing showing he can do a certain amount”

    You dont really have a certain amount though tbh, your comparing apples and oranges with destructive power vs non destructive techniques. You need to prove the “amount” your citing as too much, is actually too much or can even be gauged in such a way, so far nobody has shown this to be true concering Chakra. For all I know, and apprently for all you know Chakra is irrelevent.

    “nless some rule of how genjutsu works comes out showning power is not an issue at all”

    Burdon of proof, you said power is an issue in this case, or speciifcally “power” in this case being “lots of ki”, youve not proven this though. This swings both ways.

    “like itachi trying to lift a rock in goku’s hand, and goku not having to fight back by pushing down because the rock is too heavy for itachi to begin with.”

    If it was a rock basic physics can be used to discuss it but its not, its a spiritual source being manipulated by a technique that supposedly dominates/influences spiritual sources, whether “more” spiritual force is too much is not as clear cut as whether more weight on a rock is too heavy.

    “non power based abilities do exist in fiction”

    Exactly, how do you know this is not the same thing? You dont, and your premise was that it “is” a power based move, how do you know this? what proof do you have? what comparisons can you make? none from where I am standing, other than “Goku can use his ki to lbow up moar shit!” which to me seems like a redundant comparison, I think this has been said by others before though but DBZ fans cant seem to understand that, they cant grasp that what a Dbzer can do when channeling his resource is different than what the ki is when its just passive.

    “logical point for the most part in the two dbz related threads i’ve seen you in”

    Youve not had a very good look then, you must have just been busy making your own numerous fallacies which I have numbered and called you out on in that thread and this if I remember. Of course DBZ is the most wanked fiction on the internet so its no wonder Gokus ki is being used as a hopeful sort of buffer from argument of ignorance rather than the fans actually concedeing to what they dont know or understand.

    “to ask the goku supporters to prove their point ”

    Is probably FAR too much to ask. Ive asked for two things above but I doubt nobody can really give a decent argument for number 1 or 2.

  62. sadot06 March 29, 2013 at 11:03 am -      #4262

    Mike, people ignore your posts because your presence in most debates are at best meaningless, at worse an annoying distraction. Why respond to somebody who’s just going to ignore evidence and make fallacious arguments?

  63. Tarbel March 29, 2013 at 11:30 am -      #4263

    @sadot06
    I find it better to actually prove someone’s post is fallacious before claiming so. ‘Course that is personal preference.

  64. Mike March 29, 2013 at 11:45 am -      #4264

    “I thought so, your basically doing what I said was daft before, Goku can bust planets which is more than anyone in Naruto has shown to do, therefore he is automatically somehow too much for this technique. Destructive feats are not the result of passive ki which is relevent since thats whats apparently being controlled here.”
    -you must have missed the point that the passive ki in his body is what we are using to gauge what the destructive feats are. 180 in master roshi is at least enough to blow up our moon. that right there tells us something to go off of when naruto is mountain busting at max, and when 3,000,000 is minimum flowing through goku, we know there would be more chakra having to be controlled than what itachi has shown to control before. there’s nothing complicated or daft about this. one has more than the other because one can do more than the other.
    -
    -
    “Is there a source for this?”
    -that’s for you to provide if you want to make the positive claim that it would work against goku, not us. since there is none yet, i said this.
    -
    -
    ” its all well and good saying Itachi cant control more Chakra than hes shown if its a general fact more Chakra is actually more difficult to control but you cant say for sure if this is not the case.”
    -i don’t have to say anything for sure, you have to prove it’s the way you say.
    -
    -
    “Your example concering eyes is a pretty weird analogy but if all 1 million eyes were controlled by the exact same nerves at once as the lesser number of eyes then the number is irrelevent. ”
    -no it is not, because my analogy has him controlling the eyes(amount of chakra), not your inserted energy source behind it. you obviously did not get the analogy.
    -
    -
    “I dont, but I dont need to. Burdon of proof is on the positive, e.g. that ki “does” mean something.”
    -you are completely turned around. if you cannot show one way or the other, then you have no basis to claim your viewpoint on the subject as a fact, thus no proof of itachi being able to do it.
    -
    -
    “If you want to play that game as I said, I am neutral, I dont care who wins, point being though Genutsu has an X effect, this effect happens unless its negated by something, if what someone thinks negates it doesnt actually negate anything then their wrong. ”
    -and you would have to show the workings of the genjutsu to show that X does not negate it.
    -
    -
    “You see I dont have to, as I said in one of the other threads. Just admitting you dont know is better than making a fallacy.”
    -you plainly don’t see that you are commiting the fallacy. i have no idea how to convince you other than to continue to give you analogies and such. if you have no way to gauge the differences between the two, then any claim whatsoever could be made by either side. you could say that naruto chakra that blows up a mountain is actually 1 billion times more potent than dbz ki that blows up solar systems, the thing is it would be completely speculation and not backed by anything. we on the other hand have taken the only known common factor and compared the two. the only evidence shown at all is what we have shown on this subject. you have absolutely no basis to make any claims much less demand we prove anything. all we have to do is ask you to prove your point, for which you haven’t.
    -
    -
    “Thats only one factor though, physical durability. We dont know how the actual ki works to something that doesnt bother with physical durability. ”
    -we have actually already gone over this with detail, either look back and read, or accept that it does.
    -
    -
    “You dont really have a certain amount though tbh, your comparing apples and oranges with destructive power vs non destructive techniques.”
    -no. we are taking common factors and applying them to multiple aspects of the characters.
    -goku has 50 ki because he blows up planets
    -itachi has 5 ki because he blows up mountains
    -so the amount able to be exerted in one way as a max fact is in goku’s favor
    -now take the fact that no naruto character has shown past 10, and we know that goku has more of that than anyone in naruto, so when itachi tries to use an ability that controls an amount of that force, we know he has never controlled that much before and cannot know if it will work.
    -
    -
    “You need to prove the “amount” your citing as too much, is actually too much or can even be gauged in such a way”
    -we only need to show it is more than he has done before and that has been established clearly through the showings of the only common factor that both can be compared with. like i said before, more information could change this, but until then, this is all we have to go on.
    -
    -
    “For all I know, and apprently for all you know Chakra is irrelevent.”
    -this right here shows you truly do not have any idea of what “proof” is. for you to make any claim that it will work, when we can show at least 1 reason why it won’t, you would need to prove that reason wrong.
    -
    -
    “Burdon of proof, you said power is an issue in this case, or speciifcally “power” in this case being “lots of ki”, youve not proven this though. This swings both ways.”
    -you just used the burden of proof argument in the same statement as “swings both ways”. how can you not realize that one side has to have the positive claim and has to prove their point, not the other? you seem to just completely not understand what burden of proof and or positive claim really means. i mean, you literally just contradicted yourself in your own words.
    -
    -
    “If it was a rock basic physics can be used to discuss it but its not, its a spiritual source being manipulated by a technique that supposedly dominates/influences spiritual sources, whether “more” spiritual force is too much is not as clear cut as whether more weight on a rock is too heavy. ”
    -ok, apparently do not know how to take analogies either; you just inserted another factor into it just like the last one i gave you…….this is going to make getting you to understand things very very difficult……
    -
    -
    “Exactly, how do you know this is not the same thing? You dont, and your premise was that it “is” a power based move, how do you know this? what proof do you have? what comparisons can you make?”
    -once again, things for YOU to show, to have your viewpoint on the subject be fact. just because things aren’t known, does not mean you are automatically right, it means you cannot prove your point. and your point not being proven means goku is not proven to be affected by genjutsu.
    -
    -
    “but DBZ fans cant seem to understand that, they cant grasp that what a Dbzer can do when channeling his resource is different than what the ki is when its just passive. ”
    -? you do realize that it’s just their spiritual energy concentrated when they attack right? the kamehameha is even a direct energy in the body to energy in an attack, same with vegita’s move(galik gun or final flash, can’t remember which).
    -
    -
    “Youve not had a very good look then, you must have just been busy making your own numerous fallacies which I have numbered and called you out on in that thread and this if I remember. Of course DBZ is the most wanked fiction on the internet so its no wonder Gokus ki is being used as a hopeful sort of buffer from argument of ignorance rather than the fans actually concedeing to what they dont know or understand. ”
    -i saw you in the dante vs goku and debated against you. you were alone and run out because of your “style” of debating. you literally ignore(although now i see just don’t comprehend) other’s arguments and points.
    -
    -
    “Mike, people ignore your posts because your presence in most debates are at best meaningless, at worse an annoying distraction. Why respond to somebody who’s just going to ignore evidence and make fallacious arguments?”
    -this is the first time i have had my posts ignored anywhere, and it’s sad that you guys did since it actually ends this debate.
    -meaningless and distraction? you do know that i was a/the major contributor to multiple awards being given out right? on the right and wrong side.
    -
    ” ignore evidence and make fallacious arguments”
    -and since we have shown it is your side that is doing that, should we then just ignore you? nope, we are better than that, we actually debate and try and convince you instead of troll and insult like your post right here did.

  65. Envoy March 29, 2013 at 11:59 am -      #4265

    “What is too much?”
    +
    The eternal dragons, who can resurect entire races, re-create planets, find super saiyan+ level characters too strong to affect.

  66. Kitten Lord March 29, 2013 at 12:27 pm -      #4266

    @Mike

    “passive ki in his body is what we are using to gauge what the destructive feats are”

    No the actual feat is what he does with the ki, not the passive ki. Technically the passive ki is not doing much at all, apart from allegedly boosting physical durability.

    “if you want to make the positive claim that it would work against goku,”

    Its also for you to prove the positive claim that Gokus ki is too much for Itachi, you dont have a source for this though. Still the old “Goku can bust more” argument I see above.


    “-i don’t have to say anything for sure”

    Basically a “nuh ah” from you? ofcourse you do, you cant make claims and not back them, then just handwave it as Goku can blow more things up, has nothing to do with it. At this rate you may as well be argueing Goku having cooler hair than Itachi if you want to pass irrelevancies off as a counter.

    “you are completely turned around. if you cannot show one way or the other, then you have no basis to claim your viewpoint on the subject as a fact, thus no proof of itachi being able to do it.”

    You didnt seem to counter anything here, if you want to claim ki being too much is even a factor prove it. Dont try some daft circular logic fallacy on me, it wont work.

    “we on the other hand have taken the only known common factor and compared the two”

    No all youve done in your heavy handed manner is grab an apple and an orange and said “their both fruit so now we can compare!” without going into specifics. Please stop trying puting forth fallacies instead of evidence.

    “either look back and read, or accept that it does.”

    Or you can show your evidence, rather than say “oh its been proven somewhere previoulsy…somewhere!” [lazy handwave] :)

    “, when we can show at least 1 reason why it won’t”

    Indeed, “when” being the key word here, I am still waiting for the “when”, youve yet to give a real reason.

    “you just inserted another factor into it”

    I improved upon your analogy by countering it with why your analogy is wrong or makes no sense considering the discussion.

    “your point not being proven means goku is not proven to be affected by genjutsu.”

    lol what? reconsider your form please, my point not being proven does not automatically make your funny premise correct.

    “the same statement as “swings both ways”. ”

    Re-read what I was replying to, your logic can swing both ways concering what you said but I pointed out the Burdon of proof as the answer to that part of the discussion, you owe at answer.

    “and debated against you”

    You called that debating? you realise listing fallacy after fallacy, everything from burdon of proof to poisoning the well is not debating, not true debating anyway right?

    Yeah your still hanging yourself by the rope of your own false premise, basically trying to shift burdon of proof and at the same time argueing in circles to try and proof your point.

  67. Mike March 29, 2013 at 12:36 pm -      #4267

    i really don’t know where to go from here kitten, you clearly do not understand what you are talking about and it has been explained in detail to you multiple times by multiple people. lost cause i guess.

  68. Kitten Lord March 29, 2013 at 2:55 pm -      #4268

    “i really don’t know where to go from here kitten”

    You agree to disagree or concede, you dont try and make a belittling comment/ad hominem. If you cant grasp my meaning dont try and argue it, it doesnt matter since it seems youve not managed to convince anyone Gokus going to just “no sell” this thing anyway. Ime sure the Itachi supporters who are more interested in debating this for a winner will keep up their end.

    And you wont listen to reason even if I am trying to help you figuire out a much clearer way of gauging the match either.

  69. The King of Games March 29, 2013 at 3:17 pm -      #4269

    Envoy brought up a good point. The Eternal Dragon and Puruga who have crazy levels of magic can’t effect at this point in the series anyone who is Freeza level. They can bring back planets and everyone on it back to life and yet they can’t even force Goku to come back to Earth if he doesn’t want to just because he is extremely powerful.

  70. sadot06 March 29, 2013 at 3:23 pm -      #4270

    @Envoy

    The Eternal Dragons aren’t allowed to exceed the limits of the Guardian. In Earth’s case Kami. That’s how their magic works.

  71. The King of Games March 29, 2013 at 3:34 pm -      #4271

    Dende is the new Guardian and Dende is more powerful then Kami because he was raised on Namek. That’s why it can grant 2 wishes instead of 1.

  72. Marcel March 29, 2013 at 3:45 pm -      #4272

    “How? I have a source that shows Goku cant actually cover 15 or so meters as fast some people claim”
    -
    No, you don’t. Your interpretation of the source was bogus.

  73. Kitten Lord March 29, 2013 at 3:57 pm -      #4273

    @Marvel

    “No, you don’t. Your interpretation of the source was bogus”

    The several sources were pretty clear. The interpretation couldnt have been any better to be fair, unless of course I was Akira himself who probably wouldnt have a different interpretation and would frown on your own :)

    @KoG

    “Envoy brought up a good point”

    Maybe but he didnt bring much context with it but perhaps this new angle will bring less fallacies with it. Lets hope so….

    So some context, evidence etc etc on the dragons? If what sadot is true then their capabilities are still clearly limited. A lot of wish granting things are.

  74. Marcel March 29, 2013 at 4:02 pm -      #4274

    “The several sources were pretty clear.”
    -
    About what, the fact that DBZ heavily abuses cinematic time so that the viewer can actually enjoy what he is watching?

  75. Kitten Lord March 29, 2013 at 4:11 pm -      #4275

    No, that DBZ is being horribly hyped by fan calculations and that when Akira himself sits down to write a storyboard and not a wild fan we get battle of the Gods and wooden chopstick fights, slower than fan assumed characters etc :)

    Nice reach though. A lot of things abuse cinematic time and make it obvious when doing so, this is not one of them, the scene looks no different than the other one that was posted.

    Of course as soon as anything that looks impressive is posted and people like you start using it ill handwave it away for some other ridiculous trope like “cinematic time” or anything else I can reach for if you think thats a good logical basis to discard how clear this scene is.

  76. Envoy March 29, 2013 at 4:33 pm -      #4276

    “In Earth’s case Kami. That’s how their magic works.”
    +
    I know that. Porunga could remake the earth and revive humanity, but could only grant Goku enough energy to reach SS.
    +
    Shenron couldn’t do anything to the androids because Dende couldn’t, however he could still revive the dead and the like.
    +
    Kami’s Shenron could revive every dead Namekian on Namek, which is everyone but Nail, he still couldn’t do anything to Mecha Frieza and his pops.
    =
    “That’s why it can grant 2 wishes instead of 1.”
    +
    3 instead of 1.

  77. Marcel March 29, 2013 at 5:07 pm -      #4277

    @ Kitten
    -
    Seeing as your speculations have been debunked and proven erroneous on many occasions by many people, I hardly feel like these arguments need to be dignified with a response. The problem is that you hold on to your assumptions like a dog with a bone, feeling that the story should line up with those assumptions. You have, in your time here, shown yourself to morph proof to suit your interpretation, rather than morph your interpretation to suit the proof.

  78. Kitten Lord March 29, 2013 at 5:17 pm -      #4278

    @Marcel

    “Seeing as your speculations have been debunked and proven erroneous on many occasions by many people”

    Yes lovely claim, I can handwave this by saying the exact same thing, seeing as your/their speculations have been been thoughraly debunkded and proven erronous on many occasions by me I hardly feel why I am having this discussion.

    “your assumptions like a dog with a bone”

    Sounds more like a DBZ fan group to me.

    “rather than morph your interpretation to suit the proof.”

    lol, pot calling the kettle black. You see Goku travel 10-15 meters a second in current incarnation or DBZers being launched around by someone wielding wooden chopsticks then add assumptions/extrapolations to the extent of slitting your wrists with occams razor just so they line up somehow, without any real implications to tradiational fan wank, often from not nearly specific enough scans from the manga which come with their own fan extrapolations and funny interpretations to begin with.

    If Akira himself said Goku could be killed by methods below “planet busting” or other fan wank I wouldnt be surprised if the DBZ fans would still ignore him and bring up some daft reason for him to be wrong for his own fiction, just like they will do with this source.

    I cant wait till a canon source pops up in the movie that shows something impressive like a decent speed feat so that the fans automatically forget about “cinematic time” :)

  79. Alucard March 29, 2013 at 5:19 pm -      #4279

    In my opinion to call everone here a DBZ fan because they believe something,isn’t a wise thing because some people here don’t even like it they just know what they are talking about

  80. Soulerous March 29, 2013 at 5:53 pm -      #4280

    @Sadot06- “I think this is where you and the Goku side are wrong. Their side originally made this claim but they passed the burden of proof on to us, when it is in fact on them. You can’t say prove Itachi can control that much chakra/ki when there is A. No evidence Goku has a lot of chakra/ki in his brain, specifically his cranial nerves, and B. No given numerical value or amount of ki that Itachi needs to control.
    ~
    This is not where we are wrong, in fact. All I’ve been explaining to Kitten Lord is the simple, indisputable fact that characters don’t get to control an amount of something greater than what we know they can control. Kitten Lord is evidently adverse to learning. It isn’t actually part of the debate. I know we would have to prove that Goku has that amount of ki in his cranial nerves. That is not what I am doing. Read further, if you will.
    ~
    @Kitten Lord- Lest ye forget:
    Post #4113- “I feel like its being used as a “amount” or “value” to suggest a lot of ki can be a burdon the same way a lot of weight cannot be lifted by a character.
    ~
    Exactly that. One cannot control more energy, of whatever kind, than they have been shown to control. That would be the No-Limits Fallacy. It does not currently apply, however.
    ~
    Post #4119- “so the nlf policy is no longer in effect?” -The policy is always in effect, it doesn’t apply here because it is not proven that Goku’s cranial nerves hold more ki than Itachi has the ability to control.
    ~
    Kitten Lord’s argument has been “Does itachi have a harder time contrlling those with more Chakra?” -Post #4117. “I ask again, does Itachi clearly struggle trying to control something with more Chakra than something else?” -Post #4127. “Soulerous is under the impression somehow ki “could” be too much for him to control, his premise being that high amounts of ki can stop Genjitsu, we need some evidence for this.” -Post #4131. “My argument is your questionable logic on destructive force =/= resistance to specifc moves, or too much power to control” -Post #4139.
    ~
    He’s been arguing that Itachi can control more than we know he can. And I’ve explained: “The ability to control four is not equal to the ability to control nine. It’s as simple as that.” -Post #4119. “On the contrary, the fallacious thing is claiming the technique can accomplish something it has not accomplished before.” -Post #4184.
    ~
    And still I’ve said the argument was irrelevant. “The current issue though, is not of genjutsu. It is how quickly Goku could complete an examination of his opponent, specifically how quickly he could analyze Itachi’s chakra. He’s going to do this before attacking, so it just needs to be fast enough for him to kill Itachi before he gets snared by genjutsu.” -Post #4215.
    ~
    So what is going on here? Kitten Lord has questioned a basic principle with ridiculous logic, I’ve wasted much too much time trying to get him to accept it because I didn’t want to leave him to debate with false information, and now we’re on to something else. For my part, I do apologize for taking up needless posting space. I had not known it would all be needless.
    ~
    @Mike- Here, this is some evidence that Itachi controls his enemy’s chakra when using genjutsu. When Deidara is revealed to be under genjutsu, he realizes that the “art” he tried to use on Itachi was actually on him.
    ~
    @Kitten Lord- I already showed you how Goku could move faster than the eye could see. And you see these little rocks? They aren’t just floating through the air for some reason. They’re flying because the plateau was shattered. You really want to claim that Goku and Frieza, who fought so fast they became invisible, suddenly agreed to fight in slow motion without telling each other?

  81. Sauroposeidon March 29, 2013 at 6:00 pm -      #4281

    “Sounds more like a DBZ fan group to me.”
    -
    Kitten, you’re still a newb here, so a bit of education to keep you from becoming a noob.
    -
    YOU HAVE NO FUCKING IDEA WHAT A DBZ FAN BOY IS.
    -
    Holy fucking God, dude, you have completely missed the arrival of the biggest fucking DBZ fans. Did you even SEE DReager’s posts? For fuck’s sake we are NOT DBZ fanboys. We just have had to deal with so many that we know more about it than we otherwise might. We’ve gone over what they can and can not do SO MANY TIMES with people claiming the most ludicrous shit that we’ve had to go out of our way to figure out what they’re actually capable.

  82. The King of Games March 29, 2013 at 6:00 pm -      #4282

    @Envoy
    Dende’s Dragon can only grant 2 wishes. It would’ve been able to grant 3 but if he didn’t that it wouldn’t be able to bring back multiple people from the dead. So he had to sacrifice the extra wish and multiple revivals for one person as long as death isn’t by natural causes, for multiple people revive.

  83. Kitten Lord March 29, 2013 at 7:59 pm -      #4283

    @Soulerous

    “He’s been arguing that Itachi can control more than we know he can”

    Wrong, against this is a waste of time, you dont understand the argument.

    “And I’ve explained”

    Thats not an explanation. Thats using an analogy that suits your premise, a false premise.

    “the fallacious thing is claiming the technique can accomplish something it has not accomplished before”

    No I am just claiming that the move does what its supposed to do, and that assuming something unrelated to this move, or only barely related is going to be “too much” just because you think this is logical doesnt make sense.

    Your argument basically still boils down to “Goku can planet bust, Itachis opponents cannot therefore Gokus ki is too much” without explaining the why and how. By your logic you may as well use anything to argue Itachis Genjutsu away, “too much” not even necesserily being related.

    “Kitten Lord has questioned a basic principle ”

    No I have just questioned fallacious logic, jumping to conclusions etc, false premise. Some fallacious logic that shouldnt really be argued.

    “For my part, I do apologize for taking up needless posting space”

    Accepted.

    “I already showed you how Goku could move faster than the eye could see”

    What are you even replying to here exactly? I was not even talking about that video…which may or may not even be canon….not all of the anime is, unlike the battle of the gods movie.

    @Sauroposeidon

    “Did you even SEE DReager’s posts?”

    Actually I think I have seen a few of them, Sorrow pointed them out to me in another thread. He was an obvious/blatant troll though, wheras some DBZ fans say ridiculous things and actually belive what their saying.

  84. Soulerous March 29, 2013 at 8:33 pm -      #4284

    DReager1 actually did believe what he was saying. He was sincere in his effort, even if he did troll in other ways.
    ~
    As for me not understanding the argument and mine being “Goku can planet bust, Itachis opponents cannot therefore Gokus ki is too much,” the actual truth is I said if the ki in Goku’s cranial nerves is greater than what Itachi has controlled then he cannot do it, and that was true, and you disagreed. I don’t appreciate my words being twisted or others being put in my mouth.
    ~
    What are you even replying to here exactly?” -To you saying “I have a source that shows Goku cant actually cover 15 or so meters as fast some people claim
    ~
    Your statement is obviously true, but it doesn’t matter in this situation.

  85. Kitten Lord March 29, 2013 at 8:41 pm -      #4285

    @Soulerous

    “I don’t appreciate my words being twisted or others being put in my mouth.”

    Dont lie, your whole basis on Goku having more ki, and whats more Goku having more in his cranium is based on saying he “busts” more, so what I said was technically true. I think your using too many arguments from ignorance, you dont know, even if I dont know how much Itachi can control assuming it matters you still cant claim Goku can protect himself either, both are positives, “gokus Ki is too much”, “Itachis technique is enough”, the difference is of course I want to know “why” its too much and why you think your way of gauging it is sensible.

    “Your statement is obviously true, but it doesn’t matter in this situation.”

    obviously, but why does it not matter. Surely unless Itachi has less than human speed/reactions, he should be able to “move” his hand slightly or w/e he needs to do before Goku covers more area and does more actions to win.

  86. Soulerous March 29, 2013 at 8:57 pm -      #4286

    Dont lie, your whole basis on Goku having more ki, and whats more Goku having more in his cranium is based on saying he “busts” more, so what I said was technically true.
    1) I am not a liar. Please do not call me that.
    2) I know what the fact that Goku has more ki is based on.
    3) You said I argued that Goku has too much ki because he can destroy planets. What I actually argued from the start was that more ki than what Itachi has controlled is too much ki for him to control.
    ~
    why does it not matter.” -Because Goku not being as fast as some think he is, keeping in mind that there are those who are convinced he’s faster than light, does not detract from the fact that he can cover 15 yards ridiculously fast.
    ~
    Aside from that, he could also lift his hand and loose a ki blast.

  87. Sauroposeidon March 29, 2013 at 9:09 pm -      #4287

    “Actually I think I have seen a few of them, Sorrow pointed them out to me in another thread. He was an obvious/blatant troll though, wheras some DBZ fans say ridiculous things and actually belive what their saying.”
    -
    No. He believed it. We tried, hard. The only thing he loves more than DBZ is Megaman, and he has no bones about making it clear that he thinks Bass is the best there ever was, is, or ever will be. We actually chased him off, although no intentionally, I’m not sorry to see him gone either. We’ve dealt with so much DBZ bullshit from him, you have no idea. Thanks to people like him, we know a hell of a lot more about DBZ than many of us, including myself, ever cared to know to begin with.

  88. Dark God of Chaos March 29, 2013 at 9:12 pm -      #4288

    “The only thing he loves more than DBZ is Megaman”
    -
    Train Heartnet (Black Cat) beat Goku on his blog. Make of that what you will

  89. Kitten Lord March 29, 2013 at 9:18 pm -      #4289

    @Soulerous

    “. What I actually argued from the start was that more ki than what Itachi has controlled is too much ki for him to control.”

    Ok if your not basing this on the “planet destroying” thing what are you basing it on, how do you know/gauge Goku having more ki assuming it matters?

    “fact that he can cover 15 yards ridiculously fast.”

    Sure compared to a human, not sure if fast enough before a guy can move his hand slightly or lock eyes though.

    “he could also lift his hand and loose a ki blast”

    He “could” is not =/= he would, I dont think thats Gokus style, also is this base Goku were argueing? Add the time it takes him to go through all his SS “tiers” up to SS3 as well to how long Itachi has if thats what people think Goku will do.

  90. Soulerous March 29, 2013 at 9:44 pm -      #4290

    Ok if your not basing this on the “planet destroying” thing what are you basing it on
    ~
    You said “Being a spiritual system ki as it is, cannot be suggested to just somehow stop or resist something without proof, I feel like its being used as a “amount” or “value” to suggest a lot of ki can be a burdon the same way a lot of weight cannot be lifted by a character.”
    ~
    I said: “One cannot control more energy, of whatever kind, than they have been shown to control. That would be the No-Limits Fallacy. It does not currently apply, however.”
    ~
    You proceeded to question my logic. I defended it.
    ~
    Train Heartnet (Black Cat) beat Goku on his blog. Make of that what you will
    -He makes sure Marvel’s The One Above All loses every match he’s in, no matter how weak the character.

  91. Envoy March 29, 2013 at 9:45 pm -      #4291

    @KoG
    +
    www.mangapanda.com/105-3119-10/dragon-ball/chapter-470.html

  92. Kitten Lord March 29, 2013 at 9:48 pm -      #4292

    @Soulerous

    “You proceeded to question my logic”

    So you generalised that energy, spiritual force or w/e, no matter the fiction and no matter the power or techinque had to be controlled as per amount vs amount or something like that?

    “He makes sure Marvel’s The One Above All loses every match he’s in, no matter how weak the character.”

    :) , isnt the One Above All technically just the writer/editor of the comic at the time?

  93. The King of Games March 29, 2013 at 9:51 pm -      #4293

    @Envoy
    www.mangapanda.com/105-3043-2/dragon-ball/chapter-394.html
    www.mangapanda.com/105-3043-10/dragon-ball/chapter-394.html
    So what you posted was either a translation error or a plot hole. Akira does tend to forget the things he puts into the manga from time to time.

  94. Envoy March 29, 2013 at 10:05 pm -      #4294

    “Add the time it takes him to go through all his SS “tiers” up to SS3 as well to how long Itachi has if thats what people think Goku will do.”
    +
    He can skip forms.
    +
    Next Page.
    www.mangapanda.com/105-3152-8/dragon-ball/chapter-503.html
    =
    “So what you posted was either a translation error or a plot hole.”
    +
    It happened nearly a decade afterwards, Dende probably just made it better.

  95. The King of Games March 29, 2013 at 10:13 pm -      #4295

    @Envoy
    If that’s true I have to question why he couldn’t bring Goku back to life if he made them on the same level as the Namekian Dragon.

  96. Soulerous March 29, 2013 at 10:26 pm -      #4296

    So you generalised that energy, spiritual force or w/e, no matter the fiction and no matter the power or techinque had to be controlled as per amount vs amount or something like that?
    -I made my argument very clear. Refer to post #4170 for further questions.
    ~
    isnt the One Above All technically just the writer/editor of the comic at the time?” -I really don’t think so, but all I know is he’s the equivalent of God, creator of all Marvel universes, and omnipotent.

1 41 42 43

Leave A Response

You must be logged in to post a comment.