Goku Vs Itachi Uchiha

Goku (Dragonball Z) Vs Itachi Uchiha (Naruto)

Here is a match in which I’ll confess to not know much other than that Goku can go head to head with Superman, so that must mean something.

So, dear reader, who wins this fight?

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4,325 Comments on "Goku Vs Itachi Uchiha"

  1. Kitten Lord March 24, 2013 at 7:57 am -      #4101

    The, “will Goku charge itachi” argument is boring and clearly not going anywhere so lets say Goku does face itachi the same way he does Bills. Wheres the video of Goku turning into SS3, because I guess were assuming that even for Itachi Goku is, apparently going to SS3 so wheres the video for that? We have hm already SS3, but lets assume theres a few seconds added to the start of combat for this “brief moment to examine” and SS3 himself.

    If Goku is the same distance away from Bills as he is from Itachi in this fight, Itachi has about 3+ seconds, maybe longer give or take before Goku covers this distance and delivers a punch.

    It also seems Goku is arguably slow to react to unpredicted attacks like Bills flick for example, so if itachi somehow manages to avoid, dodge or use some other attack to stop him, Gokus folllow up may be too slow before Itachi uses his powers.

    I dont know how quickly Itachi can use his powers, and what Itachi generally likes to use considering the context of this battle.

  2. sadot06 March 24, 2013 at 10:49 am -      #4102

    “How will Goku examine?” -It’s pretty effortless. Instant Transmission, which requires the user to lock onto a ki signature, is performed by Goku rapidly. You can also see he and Cell moving faster than can be seen by the naked eye, so we know he processes things very fast.”
    _____________________________
    Instant Transmission actually is a relatively slow teleport technique compared to others in fiction. He tends to put his fingers to his head, pause, then vanish. If he can’t focus he can’t do it, like in the Buu saga when he couldn’t IT to escape Kidd Buu’s planet buster attack. And he isn’t using instant transmission in that scene with Cell. The blurry lines animation is used in Dragon Ball all the time. It’s pure movement speed, not teleporting.
    ______________________________
    “Also. Proof that ki exists throughout the body even when characters don’t have the aura they get when they power up. The relevant scene begins at 4:40.”
    _____________________________
    It was already established that Ki exists inside the body. The question was where. Powering up just increases the amount of ki you have access to. Technically we shouldn’t be able to see Ki, as Akira Toriyama explained in an interview, but he created the aura so people could see what was going on.

  3. Mike March 24, 2013 at 11:17 am -      #4103

    “Instant Transmission actually is a relatively slow teleport technique compared to others in fiction. He tends to put his fingers to his head, pause, then vanish. If he can’t focus he can’t do it, like in the Buu saga when he couldn’t IT to escape Kidd Buu’s planet buster attack. And he isn’t using instant transmission in that scene with Cell. The blurry lines animation is used in Dragon Ball all the time. It’s pure movement speed, not teleporting.”
    -he has shown to be able to do it during a kamehameha and without touching his head. the concentration to do it doesn’t seem like much, and it is fairly quick also.
    -
    -
    ” Technically we shouldn’t be able to see Ki, as Akira Toriyama explained in an interview, but he created the aura so people could see what was going on.”
    -I’d like to see that interview since akira apparently wrote their ki TO be visible and is acknowledged in many scenes including babidi’s light eating monster which ate the light coming from goku when he was supersaiyan.

  4. Soulerous March 24, 2013 at 7:08 pm -      #4104

    And he isn’t using instant transmission in that scene with Cell.” -The sound effect and visuals used are those used for Instant Transmission, which is why I thought of that scene. But I believe you’re right because it contradicts the manga; Cell didn’t know Instant Transmission. I don’t know any good examples, since I’m still watching Dragon Ball. Perhaps Mike can help us out.
    ~
    It was already established that Ki exists inside the body. The question was where.
    -Yes, and the answer is everywhere. The video shows the ki emanating from Goku. It is coming out from every surface of his body, so it exists in every part.
    ~
    @Mike- Toriyama: “Chi has been used in China since ancient times, but it’s supposed to be formless and invisible. However, in manga, in order to make it easier for any reader to grasp, it was necessary to give it a shape.” (S) Also, do you know of any good examples of how fast Goku can sense energy?

  5. sadot06 March 24, 2013 at 7:21 pm -      #4105

    @Soul

    The video shows Popo and Goku’s aura. We see aura’s throughout the show, and we know that ki exists elsewhere, specifically inside the brain. The issue was about distribution. The aura doesn’t show us anything. Like in Naruto when they show us what the Byakugan sees, and during the expalnation of the 8 gates, we get a detailed view and breakdown of a shinobi’s insides, what the chakra network looks like, where everything is, etc. Aura tells us nothing.

  6. Soulerous March 24, 2013 at 7:58 pm -      #4106

    I brought it up because we didn’t have proof that ki existed in any particular region of the body prior to the characters powering up. As you said, we knew it’s in there, but not where. I know the issue is distribution. I only said it was proof it existed throughout. I don’t think proof that it’s spread evenly exists at all.

  7. Soulerous March 24, 2013 at 8:16 pm -      #4107

    In short, it was an FYI.

  8. Max81 March 25, 2013 at 1:02 pm -      #4108

    “My reasoning is clear. Genjutsu isn’t about power and you haven’t proven how much ki Goku has in his cranial nerves, therefore you can’t say Goku has too much for him to control.”
    -
    Nice job Sadot, that is a very good argument.

  9. sadot06 March 25, 2013 at 2:03 pm -      #4109

    @Soul

    I don’t even think the video showed that. To demonstrate what Popo was doing, we were given a visual of their auras. It was a diagram of ki or anything.

  10. Kitten Lord March 25, 2013 at 2:17 pm -      #4110

    Seems “ki” as ambigious as it is, is being used as a no limit fallacy in regards to what it can resist and how it does it. Its basically whatever Goku is being faced with, the opposition simply say “well has the power dealt with that much ki before?” ignoring the fact ki is ambigious, hard to gauge in what it actually does in terms of protection to said attack. I mean it was even used to try and brunt force soul rape in the other thread, mind rape in this one.

    DBZ not actually having similiar attacks to compare in their universe doesnt mean ki can be used to shield against the power cosmic, asgardian magic, lantern rings and god knows what else when it comes up. All we know is it helps boost protection against punches, ki/energy beams and conventional weapons.

  11. Soulerous March 25, 2013 at 2:43 pm -      #4111

    To demonstrate what Popo was doing, we were given a visual of their auras.” -Which showed how ki exists in every part of the body because it emanated from every part. That’s all I said.
    ~
    @Kitten Lord- “Seems “ki” as ambigious as it is, is being used as a no limit fallacy in regards to what it can resist and how it does it.” -Not at all. I think you’re missing the point. It’s not shielding against anything.

  12. Kitten Lord March 25, 2013 at 2:47 pm -      #4112

    I think your missing the point, whether ki shields, protects or is being controlled you dont know how “much” of it is relevent to any discussion. Being a spiritual system ki as it is, cannot be suggested to just somehow stop or resist something without proof, I feel like its being used as a “amount” or “value” to suggest a lot of ki can be a burdon the same way a lot of weight cannot be lifted by a character.

    ki in general seems pretty vague at least when concering this discussion.

  13. Soulerous March 25, 2013 at 3:45 pm -      #4113

    I feel like its being used as a “amount” or “value” to suggest a lot of ki can be a burdon the same way a lot of weight cannot be lifted by a character.
    ~
    Exactly that. One cannot control more energy, of whatever kind, than they have been shown to control. That would be the No-Limits Fallacy. It does not currently apply, however.

  14. Kitten Lord March 25, 2013 at 3:57 pm -      #4114

    Well thats the fallacy then, your using ki as an actual physical manifested energy source. Someone said earlier Genjitsu has nothing to do with “amounts” of Chakra, if this is true then this is compatability right there.

    Your attributing things to Ki not attributed to it in its own universe. Saying Genjitsu can control any amount of “ki” is no more a no limits fallacy than saying someone can “lift” someone regardless of how much ki they have in them. My point being in this example ki has no more weight than equivalent pounds than ki may have proving difficult for a Genjitsu to control.

    Where does it end exactly? Silver Surfer cant transmute Goku because he has a lot of ki…magic cant effect Goku unless the wizard has proven to use the power to affect someone with equel ki? makes no sense to me for such a vague system of measurement, asuming it is one concering something like this.

  15. Max81 March 25, 2013 at 4:23 pm -      #4115

    @soul
    so the nlf policy is no longer in effect?
    -
    so that mean it ahs been confirmed that Itachi can place goku in a genjutsu?
    -
    or is there something else thats being debated that i missed?

  16. Dassadec March 25, 2013 at 4:40 pm -      #4116

    Where does it end exactly? Silver Surfer cant transmute Goku because he has a lot of ki…magic cant effect Goku unless the wizard has proven to use the power to affect someone with equel ki? makes no sense to me for such a vague system of measurement, asuming it is one concering something like this.
    -
    Ki and chakra have been established as elementally compatible. All of your examples would not have elemental compatibility with ki Or chakra so they would bypass any kind of Ki defenses Goku has. The definition of genjutsu is manipulating the target’s cranial nerve chakra with their own. Hence why it should apply here. Chakra=Ki

  17. Kitten Lord March 25, 2013 at 4:52 pm -      #4117

    But does it matter how much Chakra? you see argueing ki as being some “amount” that has to be superceded may be completly wrong, hence why I asked refering the amount of Chakra being important in the actual universe. Does itachi have a harder time contrlling those with more Chakra?

  18. Amm0vamp1r3 March 25, 2013 at 5:00 pm -      #4118

    I think its the fact the Both ki and Chakra aren’t 100% compatible thats why its being debated
    -
    Apparently in Naruto amount of Chakra doesn’t mean much from what I gather
    -
    While in DBZ the amount of KI does matter because low ki doesn’t do much to people with higher Ki
    -
    Thats where I think the majority of the problems of this thread stem from

  19. Soulerous March 25, 2013 at 5:29 pm -      #4119

    Well thats the fallacy then, your using ki as an actual physical manifested energy source. ” -Wrong.
    ~
    This has nothing to do with weight, and I am curious as to how you came to that conclusion. Any action takes energy. This is a fundamental law. It is not restricted to kinetics. In this case it is a matter of ability. The ability to control four is not equal to the ability to control nine. It’s as simple as that. This is principle, not physics.
    ~
    @Max81- “so the nlf policy is no longer in effect?” -The policy is always in effect, it doesn’t apply here because it is not proven that Goku’s cranial nerves hold more ki than Itachi has the ability to control.
    ~
    I had said earlier that ki is either evenly distributed or focused more in one area than another. It’s one or the other, and it’s not the other. But I had forgotten that it could be the other; there’s no proof that it is, but that doesn’t prove that it isn’t.
    ~
    Right now the matter is speed. Goku would not hesitate his attack; neither would Itachi. Both can detect chakra/ki. Both would, by necessity, examine their foe for a brief moment before attacking. Goku is faster and thus would win, but this is only true if his examination of Itachi, which includes sensing his ki, does not take too long compared to Itachi’s examination.
    ~
    So we just need to prove how easy and quick it is for Goku to sense the energy of others, as I understand it.

  20. Max81 March 25, 2013 at 7:04 pm -      #4120

    @soul
    so it is back to the will goku speed blitz and win the match?
    -
    i think i recal an argument that countered this.
    -
    Goku will have to move, and close the distance between him and Itachi.
    -
    Itachi just needs to activate the sharingan, if goku notices the change, and is currently examining itachi from the should up, like he appears to be doing in all his fights, he should notice the change.
    -
    there is always a possibility goku will notice the eye change.
    -
    but the bigger one, is that Itachi just needs to flick his hand. www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMUOgxuFOzU
    -
    and if goku reacts like he did to bills, www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=jYbzLuOC460 this should give Itachi more than enough time to point and capture him within a genjutsu.
    -
    i mean we have the odd occasion in which goku will look into Itachi’s eyes, then we have the rest of the times when Itachi can point and win.
    -
    its true that goku can speedblitz and k.o, itachi, but i doubt he can pull such a feat off all 100 of the scenarios. the sharingan activation probably happens at the beginning of the battle, because Itachi typically has it on all the time, and since he beginst he match without it, i am certain it will be the first thing Itachi will do is activate his Sharingin.

  21. Kitten Lord March 25, 2013 at 7:11 pm -      #4121

    @Soulerous

    “The ability to control four is not equal to the ability to control nine. It’s as simple as that”

    Where the hell are you even getting this from? You dont have any leg to stand on to try and use ki as some sort of “energy” comparable to real energy, and “any action takes energy” is based on what exactly? reality or fiction, ki or real potential energy? I think your making huge sweeping generalisations that are not actually refering to the actual point at hand.

    Principle is taking into account actual facts, not all forces and concepts in fiction work together, elemental compatability doesnt work if attacks in question even with different resources or similiar ones are completly different to eachother, genjitsu may manipulate Chakra which may be somewhat compatible with ki, but how their used may be completly different and “amount” of ki may not mean anything at all.

    “Goku is faster and thus would win,”

    Whats this based on? What feat of Goku are you comparing to a feat of Itachi’s? post numbers if you please.

  22. TheSorrow March 25, 2013 at 7:54 pm -      #4122

    Where the hell are you even getting this from?
    -
    We know for a fact that the 9-Tails is the strongest of the Tailed-Beasts, that’s where he is getting it from.

  23. Kitten Lord March 25, 2013 at 7:58 pm -      #4123

    Right so? That has no relation to what he just said. He is under the premise just because he thinks Goku can bust more, and therefore has more ki this somehow makes it harder for Goku to be controlled…..

    There is apprently no relation between amount of Chakra and control, and there sure as hell is nothing brought up so far that even makes a

    His argument in lamens terms seems to be under the illusion that Ki is some form of raging river that needs X amount of strength to control, whether it be with Chakra or w/e just because it can be used/channeled for powerful things, but in the same sense a river can be calm and easily manipulated by far less force than a river/water source can actually be capable of. Hence, ki may not be hard to control via Genjitsu at all, its being argued as some sort of difficult force to manipulate with something Goku does not face (mind attacks, or people commanding his ki) on a common basis, if at all.

    Ki is a resource that can be tapped by its user to do various powerful things, that does not make its actual amount or control hard for anyone manipulating it like Genjitisu is suggested to be.

  24. Kitten Lord March 25, 2013 at 8:00 pm -      #4124

    sorry, I meant to say


    *makes a comparison between what Goku has resisted and his Ki vs something that controls Chakra as a source.

  25. TheSorrow March 25, 2013 at 8:03 pm -      #4125

    So are you just going to ignore the fact that Itachi has not controlled anything as powerful as a Tailed Beast? How can you be so sure that the amount of Chakra or Ki someone has directly correlates to how difficult it can be to control them?
    -
    You use the words “ki may not be hard to control via Genjitsu at all”. Keywords being “may not”, you don’t have definitive proof.

  26. TheSorrow March 25, 2013 at 8:05 pm -      #4126

    *the amount of Chakra or Ki someone has does not directly correlate to how difficult it can be to control them?

  27. Kitten Lord March 25, 2013 at 8:07 pm -      #4127

    I think you missed the point, I was explaining you dont have definitie proof either. I am argueing false logic, not either side :)

    Hence why I am pointing out the falsehood of saying “well Goku has more ki than a tailed beast!” as somehow being able to protect him. I ask again, does Itachi clearly struggle trying to control something with more Chakra than something else? A simple citation could prove Itachi struggles with more Chakra. Then from there a comparison between ki and Chakra can then be made but its useles without how the ability works.

  28. Kitten Lord March 25, 2013 at 8:10 pm -      #4128

    The most sensible approach would be, has Goku ever been faced with a power like the Genjitsu before, if the answer is yes, and he resisted it then Itachi will have problems, if the answer is “no, but he has a lot of ki! more than a tailed beast has Chakra because we think he is more impressive!” then its a grasp at straws.

  29. Max81 March 25, 2013 at 8:11 pm -      #4129

    @kitten lord
    what are you debating? the debate between genjutsu vs Goku’s ki has been resolved, the answer was.
    -
    we don’t know how much ki is in his cranial nerves, so we can’t say that he has to much for Itachi to control.
    -
    but in any case
    -
    as soulerous said, whether Itachi or goku wins this fight, is who can strike first.
    -
    if goku does poor itachi is wiped off the face of the earth
    -
    if Itachi does, the saiyan suffers a defeat from another anime.
    -

  30. TheSorrow March 25, 2013 at 8:11 pm -      #4130

    But we aren’t the ones claiming it would work, we are only responding to those who would think it would.
    -
    Just saying Itachi could control Goku (who has more destructive power than any of the Tailed Beasts) with Genjutsu based solely on the fact that he never had difficulty using in the manga itself is a No Limits Fallacy.

  31. Kitten Lord March 25, 2013 at 8:14 pm -      #4131

    Soulerous is under the impression somehow ki “could” be too much for him to control, his premise being that high amounts of ki can stop Genjitsu, we need some evidence for this. Just sayinh “Goku is more destructive!”, is not evidence of him no selling this power.

    Also since when is destructive power =/= resistance to specified, non destructive moves? Your comparing apples to oranges. And no, a no limits fallacy would be claiming he could control anyone because he never had trouble controlling anyone in the manga, thats a no limits fallacy and that does not seem to be being made, the truth is Goku doesnt seem to have any real defence at least not properly argued anyway, nor has he faced this sort of thing.

  32. Kitten Lord March 25, 2013 at 8:16 pm -      #4132

    @Max

    “so we can’t say that he has to much for Itachi to control.”

    Then its apprently up in the air, not technically resolved.

    -

    “, is who can strike first.”

    I have not looked for it but to save time can you show me Itachis “speed” at performing this power?

  33. TheSorrow March 25, 2013 at 8:17 pm -      #4133

    if the answer is “no, but he has a lot of ki! more than a tailed beast has Chakra because we think he is more impressive!” then its a grasp at straws.
    -
    We know that the Tailed beasts are difficult to control because we have seen it in the manga itself. www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v60/c567/8.html

  34. Max81 March 25, 2013 at 8:18 pm -      #4134

    @the sorrow.
    -
    that claim has already been disproven. We don’t know how juch ki goku has in his cranial nerves, it has never been stated or shown in dbz.
    -
    so we can’t apply the NLF formula since we don’t know about how much ki, goku has thier. like soul said the last thing to debate is who will strike first

  35. TheSorrow March 25, 2013 at 8:20 pm -      #4135

    his premise being that high amounts of ki can stop Genjitsu, we need some evidence for this. Just sayinh “Goku is more destructive!”, is not evidence of him no selling this power.
    -
    So far we have established that Ki and Chakra are similar enough to be considered the same thing. We know that the more Ki or Chakra you put into an attack, the more destructive it will be. We also know that both can be used as a shield that would thwart attacks that would otherwise harm them.

  36. sadot06 March 25, 2013 at 8:28 pm -      #4136

    That’s flawed logic though. Genjutsu’s effectiveness has nothing to do with how much destructive power Goku can generate compared to a tailed beast. Your argument is based on the assumption that genjutsu requires that the target be overpowered, thus you conclude genjutsu can’t be used on a target that has more power than the caster. But this isn’t the case in Naruto. Kurenai has less chakra than Itachi by a considerable margin, but was able to put him in a genjutsu. Killer Bee is strong enough to control the 8 tails and is stronger than Itachi in base form, but Itachi still put him in a genjutsu. We’re assuming genjutsu works a certain way just because the phrasing of Jirayai was interpreted as genjutsu working by grabbing the opponents chakra and forcing it around. Itachi could simply be using his own chakra to alter the neural pathways, thus throwing off the chakra flow in the cranial nerves and causing sensory distortion.

  37. TheSorrow March 25, 2013 at 8:35 pm -      #4137

    I’m saying that the amount of Ki or Chakra something has directly correlates to how much power they can put into an attack. That’s an indisputable fact.
    -
    I also never said that just having more Chakra is enough to make Genjutsu null and void. I’m saying that at certain point it would be logical to assume they have too much for the caster to handle easily, if at all. As you recall, Kurenai started out being able to successfully use Genjustsu on Itachi, but eventually it ended up being reversed.
    -
    We have clear evidence that the Tailed Beasts are not something that can easily be controlled, even by someone adept at using the Genjutsu. Itachi has not shown this ability.

  38. Amm0vamp1r3 March 25, 2013 at 8:35 pm -      #4138

    The way I see this people are trying to convert Ki into Chakra by not vice verse like I said
    -
    Iin Naruto amount of Chakra doesn’t mean much from what I gather,if you got alot of chakra you bascially can just fire out more moves
    -
    While in DBZ the amount of KI does matter because low ki doesn’t do much to people with higher Ki,If your Ki amount is low you can’t put out much,If you can’t put out much you won’t effect people with more Ki
    -
    Thats why Humans wouldn’t be effective fighting Goku or someone around his level
    -
    So if Chakra doesn’t matter on the amount,and Ki does,where do we go from there if this argument is to still be had?

  39. Kitten Lord March 25, 2013 at 8:44 pm -      #4139

    @Sorrow

    “We have clear evidence that the Tailed Beasts are not something that can easily be controlled, even by someone adept at using the Genjutsu. Itachi has not shown this ability.”

    The tailed beasts may not be easily controlled but is it clear its because they have “more” Chakra? Or is it an actual feat/power attributed to the tailed beast, or perhaps its use of Chakra, you seem to be making hasty generlisation fallacies.

    “So far we have established that Ki and Chakra are similar enough to be considered the same thing. We know that the more Ki or Chakra you put into an attack, the more destructive it will be. We also know that both can be used as a shield that would thwart attacks that would otherwise harm them.”

    Whether thats true or not, I am not argueing. My argument is your questionable logic on destructive force =/= resistance to specifc moves, or too much power to control, its a hasty generlisation on very little information. We know ki can be used as a shield to protect againt punches, beams and the like, but elemental compatability imo stops there when you get into the more hax moves like mental manipulation.

    Sadot86 kind of said a lot of other things I agree with, protection for Goku is being used as a no limit fallacy, e.g. in this case its being assumed as long as he has more ki than another person he is somehow resistant to their powers no matter how unique, no matter how their techniques are used.

  40. Kitten Lord March 25, 2013 at 8:45 pm -      #4140

    @Ammo

    “So if Chakra doesn’t matter on the amount,and Ki does,where do we go from there if this argument is to still be had?”

    Ive not read the whole thread, but your point may suggest Chakra and ki are not as elementally compatible as assumed, saying “well their both spiritual esque martial arts power sources” is not enough to sort of wrap up all their diverse uses and rules imo.

  41. Amm0vamp1r3 March 25, 2013 at 8:50 pm -      #4141

    “Ive not read the whole thread, but your point may suggest Chakra and ki are not as elementally compatible as assumed, saying “well their both spiritual esque martial arts power sources” is not enough to sort of wrap up all their diverse uses and rules imo.”
    -
    They both represent life in there verses,difference being if you run out of chakra you die,I don’t think the same is for Ki
    -
    They both need training to be weaponized if I recall right,not everyone can do jutsus unless taught or special or something, same for DBZ
    -
    Chakra flows through the body kind of like veins if I remember right,Ki is just in the body like in the gut or something like that
    -
    But they aren’t completely the same,they have differences which are as important as similarities

  42. TheSorrow March 25, 2013 at 8:52 pm -      #4142

    The tailed beasts may not be easily controlled but is it clear its because they have “more” Chakra?
    -
    Well what else could it be? They are just a mass of coalesced Chakra coming from a far bigger mass of coalesced Chakra.
    -
    elemental compatability imo stops there when you get into the more hax moves like mental manipulation.
    -
    Umm no, it would stop if those “hax moves” were based off something other than Chakra, it is not.
    -
    e.g. in this case its being assumed as long as he has more ki than another person he is somehow resistant to their powers no matter how unique, no matter how their techniques are used.
    -
    No? Something like Obito’s MS or Kakashi’s would still work because it affects the fabric of space, which in turn affects Goku. If Itachi were to use something Amaterasu, it’s still for intents in purposes, an incredibly hot flame. Something like Genjutsu however is actively trying to control a portion of a person body and manipulate it, that’s what I am arguing right now.

  43. Kitten Lord March 25, 2013 at 8:59 pm -      #4143

    “Well what else could it be? They are just a mass of coalesced Chakra coming from a far bigger mass of coalesced Chakra.”

    I am not one to assume, not sure anyone is. Some suggestions could be stronger willpower if Gengitsu is a mental manipulation, maybe theres an unexplained reason, simply saying its because theres too much Chakra is a possible suggestion but not something you can just lay down as fact, even less so Ki being used in the same way.

    Is the tailed beast like an animal as its name applies? Maybe bestial creatures are not as suseptable?

    “Umm no, it would stop if those “hax moves” were based off something other than Chakra, it is not.”

    non sequitar, your premise is that as long as it comes from Chakra its compatible with any “ki” attack protection? Theres no logic in that, techniques from Chakra may not be resisted purely by higher reserves of energy but resistance or knowledge of said technique, possibly better knowledge. You seem to be argueing from your opinion, not fact.

    “Something like Genjutsu however is actively trying to control a portion of a person body and manipulate it, that’s what I am arguing right now.”

    But what are you argueing exactly? Ki=Chakra, therefore Tailed beast>Genjitsu, Goku more destructive than tailed beast so Goku’s ki>Beasts Chakra>Genjitsu?

    Sounds like a lot of circular logic, based off half truths and interpretations. And thats if, as said Chakra and Ki are so closely comparable.

  44. TheSorrow March 25, 2013 at 9:08 pm -      #4144

    Is the tailed beast like an animal as its name applies? Maybe bestial creatures are not as suseptable?
    -
    They have been shown to be every bit as intelligent as a human though.They can talk and can reason just like us.
    -
    Sounds like a lot of circular logic, based off half truths and interpretations. And thats if, as said Chakra and Ki are so closely comparable.
    -
    How does that make it circular logic? Just saying it is really doesn’t clarify your point

  45. Kitten Lord March 25, 2013 at 9:18 pm -      #4145

    “They have been shown to be every bit as intelligent as a human though.They can talk and can reason just like us.”

    If their very much like humans and just as reasonable then my other suggestion on them generally having a greater knowledge over techinques used by Chakra may be a sensible one. Again, suggestions are all you, or I can bring up, do you have a scan saying specifically the Nine tailed beast is not suspectable purely due to Chakra mass?

    “How does that make it circular logic? Just saying it is really doesn’t clarify your point”

    Well I thought I clarified by actually describing the circle in full. Your claiming those two things are elementally compatible, wheras Ammo points out some differences between them and the movesets and powers used by both series are also different.

    You claim that somehow destructive power =/= amount of Chakra/ki and how hard it is to manipulate said forces which has not really been argued for, merely stated, why is destructive capacity the only gauge especially when Genjitisu is not a “destructive” power per say? Has it been proven anyway destructive capacity is =/= amount of chakra/ki? some Chakra based moves are apprently not purely destructive yet are clearly powerful in their own right.. the whole relationship between the belief how much someone can bust using their energy as being equel to how much they are protected from is also not really argued specifically for anything similiar to these Chakra based powers, ki is generally a shield vs physical impact not as I said more subvert/special techinques, its like the no limits fallacy on Ki is to state it can somehow protect against any techinque, just because theres “moar” ki than there is chakra.

    Your argument is circular logic, and each segment if you will of the circle is a false premise or at least your interpretation/deduction not fact for some.

  46. TheSorrow March 25, 2013 at 9:27 pm -      #4146

    Again, suggestions are all you, or I can bring up, do you have a scan saying specifically the Nine tailed beast is not suspectable purely due to Chakra mass?
    -
    You just made several suggestions when I brought up the fact that the Tailed Beasts were difficult to control.

  47. Max81 March 25, 2013 at 9:32 pm -      #4147

    I am having trouble grasping what is currently being argued, can someone give me an example?

  48. TheSorrow March 25, 2013 at 9:33 pm -      #4148

    I don’t even care to know anymore. Ain’t nobody got time fo’ dat.

  49. Amm0vamp1r3 March 25, 2013 at 9:35 pm -      #4149

    “Ain’t nobody got time fo’ dat.”

  50. Kitten Lord March 25, 2013 at 9:35 pm -      #4150

    @Sorrow

    “when I brought up the fact that the Tailed Beasts were difficult to control.”

    You made the assertion why, which was that its likely becase they have too much Chakra, just because it probably goes in line with you saying somehow Goku having too much ki makes it impossible for him to control.

    @Max

    “I am having trouble grasping what is currently being argued, can someone give me an example?”

    A few things, one snippest being Destructive potential being the primary gauge for power/ki/chakra, e.g. how much earth, terrain, stone etc they can bust and whats more, the suggestion that his is also their “shield” vs any and all attacks of a chakra/ki nature regardless of their approach/technique.

    Also I asked earlier for a speed feat to see how fast Itachi can use Genjitsu, could I see that please, which number comment is it if its bene posted?

  51. sadot06 March 25, 2013 at 9:39 pm -      #4151

    “I’m saying that the amount of Ki or Chakra something has directly correlates to how much power they can put into an attack. That’s an indisputable fact.”
    -
    __________________________________
    An irrelevant one though.
    ______________________________________
    I also never said that just having more Chakra is enough to make Genjutsu null and void. I’m saying that at certain point it would be logical to assume they have too much for the caster to handle easily, if at all. As you recall, Kurenai started out being able to successfully use Genjustsu on Itachi, but eventually it ended up being reversed.
    ________________________________________
    But you are saying that. Again assuming genjutsu is about physically grabbing the opponents chakra with your own. Kurenai using it in the first place nullifies the notion that a weaker person can’t use it on a stronger person. Itachi reversed it because he’s better at genjutsu than she is. And he put genjutsu on Killer Bee who is stronger than him.
    -_______________________________________
    We have clear evidence that the Tailed Beasts are not something that can easily be controlled, even by someone adept at using the Genjutsu. Itachi has not shown this ability.”
    ______________________________________
    We have no evidence of this. We were told that to fully control a tailed beast requires a Mangekyo Sharingan. Itachi has two. His younger brother exerted control over the 9 tails even though he was weaker than Itachi at the time and didn’t even have a Mangekyo Sharingan. Itachi also is the best all around gejutsu user in the show. You’re assuming he can’t because he never attempted it, despite the overwhelming likelyhood that he could have when you take into account the power he’s displayed relative to those who showed control over the tailed beasts. That doesn’t seem logical.

  52. TheSorrow March 25, 2013 at 9:39 pm -      #4152

    Goku having too much ki makes it impossible for him to control.
    -
    Goku having too much ki for *Itachi to control. If he were on or near the same level I would have cause to reconsider though.

  53. TheSorrow March 25, 2013 at 9:42 pm -      #4153

    We have no evidence of this
    -
    I just showed it not but a few posts ago. www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v60/c567/8.html
    -
    His younger brother exerted control over the 9 tails even though he was weaker than Itachi at the time and didn’t even have a Mangekyo Sharingan.
    -
    Which again, as I have said, was when the Nine-Tails was imprisoned and not in his released form.

  54. Max81 March 25, 2013 at 9:43 pm -      #4154

    @everyone
    since it has been proven that genjutsu can work on goku, thanks to sadot’s argument, i motion we skip to the last part of this debate, who will strike first goku or itachi, so taht way we can resolve this thread, and we don’t surpass Rand vs Richard Rahl.
    -
    all in favor?
    -
    @kitten lord
    itachi uses genjutsu the moment he moves his hand. or if goku looks him in the eye. post 4095 are three instances of how this works. so it is a very fast jutsu. which in my opinion gives itachi an edge, but i will let the debate continue

  55. Amm0vamp1r3 March 25, 2013 at 9:43 pm -      #4155

    20 or so more comments,kind of proud I was apart of this to be honest

  56. Amm0vamp1r3 March 25, 2013 at 9:45 pm -      #4156

    “since it has been proven that genjutsu can work on goku”
    -
    Has it? Is Sorrow in agreement with this?

  57. Kitten Lord March 25, 2013 at 9:47 pm -      #4157

    @Max

    “itachi uses genjutsu the moment he moves his hand. or if goku looks him in the eye. post 4095 are three instances of how this works. so it is a very fast jutsu. which in my opinion gives itachi an edge, but i will let the debate continue”

    Based on the bills fight and comparing to what you said here Itachi wins in that case. I am yet to be convinced “more ki” is a definite way of blocking something like a genjitsu anyway, maybe if it was a more physical or energy attack what DBZ is used to, sure but not something unique like that.

  58. TheSorrow March 25, 2013 at 9:47 pm -      #4158

    I used to think the reverse, and was in fact one of the few people who debated for Itachi. Now I am doubtful.

  59. therealbs March 25, 2013 at 9:52 pm -      #4159

    I believe the discussion is around whether itachi could trap goku in a genjustu. the person with the largest amount odf chakra itachi trapped in an illusion was naruto and naruto has been stated to have a n enormous chakra level by kabuto, kakashi, even orochimaru. add the ninetails chakra and its not unreasonable to think that his energy level resembles an early dbz character. my reasoning for a level that high is because of the tailed beast bombs destruction and energy level. the attack looks like an energy wave. also four of the ninetails total energy put ot an atack that looked like dbz attack narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/295/6 note the manga says its an “energy beam”

    as strong and high as his chakra level was itachi easily put him in a genjustu. narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/366/5 pages 5-8

  60. sadot06 March 25, 2013 at 9:54 pm -      #4160

    I just showed it not but a few posts ago. www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v60/c567/8.html
    -________________________________________
    “How is that proof? Tobi isn’t using genjutsu on the tailed beasts. He’s using the outer path to control the Edo Jinchuriki, while fighting 3 people.”
    -________________________________________
    “Which again, as I have said, was when the Nine-Tails was imprisoned and not in his released form.”
    _________________________________________
    Sauske went inside Naruto’s mind and forced the 9 tails into his cage. That’s still a feat of manipulating the strongest tailed beast without a Mangekyo.

  61. Amm0vamp1r3 March 25, 2013 at 9:54 pm -      #4161

    “not unreasonable to think that his energy level resembles an early dbz character.”

  62. Dassadec March 25, 2013 at 10:00 pm -      #4162

    Sauske went inside Naruto’s mind and forced the 9 tails into his cage. That’s still a feat of manipulating the strongest tailed beast without a Mangekyo.
    -
    sasuke couldn’t replicate that feat against a trained junchuriki in Bee though. I doubt it would happen again

  63. Max81 March 25, 2013 at 10:02 pm -      #4163

    @sorrow
    the argument was, We don’t know how juch ki goku has in his cranial nerves, it has never been stated or shown in dbz.
    -
    so we can’t apply the NLF formula since we don’t know about how much ki goku has in his cranial nerves.
    -
    does that make sense?

  64. TheSorrow March 25, 2013 at 10:06 pm -      #4164

    So because you don’t know how much ki is in his nerves, you automatically assume Itachi could in fact assume control. Do you see the issue I have with that?

  65. Amm0vamp1r3 March 25, 2013 at 10:07 pm -      #4165

    So we can’t say Genjutsu will work? If we don’t know how much he has in his mind?
    -
    Or
    -
    Do we say it works for the same reason?

  66. Amm0vamp1r3 March 25, 2013 at 10:08 pm -      #4166

    “So because you don’t know how much ki is in his nerves, you automatically assume Itachi could in fact assume control. Do you see the issue I have with that?”
    -
    What I think

  67. Max81 March 25, 2013 at 10:35 pm -      #4167

    @sorrow and ammo,
    my bad that makes sense, it seems like every argument thrown out for itachi, always is defeated very quickly.
    -
    this debate is really going nowhere fast.

  68. TheSorrow March 25, 2013 at 10:40 pm -      #4168

    I stopped debating it for a few months, almost a year actually. Most everyone else did as well, then it got revived again, I don’t recall who necroed it though.

  69. Amm0vamp1r3 March 25, 2013 at 10:40 pm -      #4169

    It was going nowhere fast,it has reached a halt like 3,000 or so comments ago

  70. Soulerous March 25, 2013 at 10:46 pm -      #4170

    @Kitten Lord- Allow me to explain this to you. You are claiming, in essence, that controlling 2 ki is the same as controlling 10,000 ki. This is not a negative, it is a positive. You have to prove this to be the case, else the technique in question is not certain to work.
    ~
    On the other hand, I am claiming that controlling 10 ki and controlling 97 ki requires different levels of ability. This is a positive, something that I have to prove, only if this fictional energy known as ki is not subject to the Laws of Thought and Causality. These are terrifically basic laws mind you, and among other things, they testify that each thing is equal to itself and that something cannot simultaneously be both itself and that which it is not.
    ~
    Therefore, X, which causes the control of 14 ki, is different and distinct from Y, which causes the control of 83 ki. X does not equal Y, therefore X does not prove the existence of Y. The fact that Itachi has X does not mean that he has Y.
    ~
    Now tell me, are you saying that because ki is a fictional energy that could potentially function according to it’s own set of rules, that this law does not apply to it automatically? Is that your argument? If so, it is a false one. Here on BankGambling we use real-world physics, principles, and logic when discussing fictional topics. These things apply by default. They are automatic. They do not have to be proven to be present for it to be a fact that they are present. The only times when these laws are absent in fictional universes are when they are proven to be absent.
    ~
    In order for us to validly say that Itachi can control a greater amount of chakra than he has been shown to control, we would require proof that: 1, he has equal or greater control over chakra than someone who has controlled more than he has, or 2, that the amount of chakra/ki does not affect one’s ability to control it.
    ~
    I am going to go further and display to you the fact that it is indeed more difficult to control greater amounts of ki than it is lesser amounts. “Normally, the more you increase your ki, the harder it is to control, so ki control is also important.” –Akira Toriyama. (S)
    ~
    I cannot fathom how this was even questioned. Something so simple. Well, questions are fine, but I would advise someone who was so concerned with getting insulted to not ask in the form of “Where the hell are you even getting this from?”
    ~
    And arguing that genjutsu boasts no reliance on power whatsoever is to argue against Itachi, for it could thus not control something that does require power to control. Reading on the wiki tells me that chakra control requires training however, so I do find that argument quite interesting.
    ~
    I’m not the one who’s so far away when I feel the snakebite enter my veins. Never did I wanna be here again. And I don’t remember why I came.

  71. Max81 March 25, 2013 at 10:47 pm -      #4171

    @the sorrow
    that was motor, remember how he apologised?
    -
    but anyway. from the wikis, official handbooks and from the anime, we have writings saying that Goku’s ki is in the center of the body.
    -
    idk, problem is we don’t know how much ki goku has in his cranial nerves, for all we know it could be nothing, or it can be alot.
    -
    if we use that it is mostly in the center Itachi can place him in a genjutsu,
    -
    if it is evenly distrubuted, Itachi can place Goku in a genjutsu.
    -
    if Ki is centered in the brain, Itachi is fucked.
    -
    the first two however appear the most likely, i mean the ki running through Goku’s cranial nerves are no where’s near as much as tailed beast, and if Itachi can put down a tailed beast in gnejutsu, i see no reason why he can’t place Goku within a genjutsu.
    -
    I feel like Itachi really can win this, i mean we have all argued non-stop and put in so much effort, and have posted plenty of arguments.
    -
    I….. Don’t…. know….

  72. Soulerous March 25, 2013 at 11:11 pm -      #4172

    but anyway. from the wikis, official handbooks and from the anime, we have writings saying that Goku’s ki is in the center of the body.
    -Actually, the only thing that said that was the English anime, and it was mistranslated. The Japanese subs tell a whole different story, and the manga mentions it not at all.

  73. Storm117 March 25, 2013 at 11:15 pm -      #4173

    Hmm
    -
    well nothing has really happened since i left.
    -
    Genjutsu not working on Goku?
    -
    I thought this part was resolved?
    -
    well looks like the genjutsu thing got necroed and prolonged the conclusion.
    -
    though i have to admit this debate has come really far, so all of you don’t feel bad, this has indeed been amazing debate, and if ITachi wins this debate will definetly be a stunning victory, if Goku wins we can finnally have a nice argument that stops the Itachi fanboys online.
    -
    lol looking through the thread, how many arguments have been gone over it is hilarious.
    -
    well i would like to say i have an argument to prove that Itachi can put goku in a genjutsu but i am drawing a blank.
    -
    my last reserve or guess would be
    -
    Goku has x amount of ki in hsi cranial nerves.
    -
    we know that a tailed beast has 2x in its body(no one has ever claimed that goku’s ki in his cranial nerves is more than a tialed beast)
    -
    Itachi can place a tailed beast under a genjutsu, so Itachi can contorl 2x.
    -
    2x>x
    -
    so Itachi can control goku.
    -
    I mean to control a tailed beast you must control the tailed beast with every bit of its massive chakra, (this point was argued before)
    -
    you see tailed beasts traveling spirits, thats why they are identified as demons. spirits aren’t the same as humans thats why they are harder to control.
    -
    this is also why no basic ninja can control a tailed beast.
    -
    if a tialed beast simply had a body, Sakura could possibly control it. (sakura know genjutsu)
    -
    To control a tailed beast you must control it with all its entireity.
    -
    so let this argument stand. lol
    -
    @the sorrow, kitten lord, sadot, max, ammo, soul
    good to see you all :)

  74. sadot06 March 26, 2013 at 7:08 am -      #4174

    “sasuke couldn’t replicate that feat against a trained junchuriki in Bee though. I doubt it would happen again”

    Sasuke didn’t attempt the feat again. Big difference. He was also trying (and failing) not to get impaled. The fact that it happened originally proves my point. Bee is irrelevant.

  75. Kitten Lord March 26, 2013 at 7:33 am -      #4175

    @Soulerous

    “You are claiming, in essence, that controlling 2 ki is the same as controlling 10,000 ki.”

    Wrong, i am trying to explain to you that saying controlling 2 ki does not allow you to control 10k ki or a billion ki is not necessery true, you have not really explained away the gauge of ki and its difficulty to control in proportion to chakra in this move, you probably cant since Goku does not face anything like Genjitsu from what I have seen.

    “Here on BankGambling we use real-world physics, principles, and logic when discussing fictional topics.”

    Here on BankGambling people also like to extrapolate certain values and fictional concepts to their own argument. Your just claiming ki is some sort of resource that works in a way youve not proven. Spiritual energy is not discussed in physics and a huge amount of logic in DBZ is absent, but what is and is not absent makes no difference, youve yet to provide any reason to suggest ki would be hard for this move to control.

    -
    “am going to go further and display to you the fact that it is indeed more difficult to control greater amounts of ki than it is lesser amounts”

    Thats a given, thats personal ki and its use but how does that affect Chakra or more importantly, this techniques ability to control Chakra?

    Soulerous your whole premise is based on somehow attributing spiritual concepts such as ki and Chakra similiar ideas when the two are different in several ways mentioned by others but your ignoring techniques, Itachi uses a technique with his Chakra Goku has never faced with his ki, simply handwaving it away and saying “Itachi cannot possibly control this much ki with his technique” when youve yet to make the comparison between “amount” of ki and difficulty to control is fallacious.

    I made an analogy earlier based on water for what you are doing, using the destructive potential for ki to gauge how someone else with a techinque can control it is in my opinion absurd because as destructive a river, the sea or w/e can be when not being used it is calm and a child can cup liters of it. Ki appears to be similiar in many ways, your argueing it as some violent typhoon constantly in Gokus body that Itachi would have difficulty to control when ki is only destructive when channeled by its user which is the only time “control” really comes up concerning ki in the DBZ universe, personal control.

    @Max

    “and if Itachi can put down a tailed beast in gnejutsu, i see no reason why he can’t place Goku within a genjutsu.”

    I could have sworn some people are argueing Itachi cannot put a tailed beast in Genjutsu, has this happened?

  76. TheSorrow March 26, 2013 at 7:34 am -      #4176

    It really doesn’t Sadot, how does a representation of the Nine-Tails, one that even attempt to fight back against Sasuke, compare to the real deal? Where is the evidence to assume that Sasuke could actually suppress, let alone control it’s Chakra?

  77. Kitten Lord March 26, 2013 at 7:38 am -      #4177

    Aslo to add to that does a tailed beast have “cranial nerves”? Storm just said they were purely spiritual, e.g. Chakra incarnate, and that you have to in this case control its whole Chakra. If Itachi has controlled a whole body of Chakra then ki would have to be argued as some impossibly hard to hold/control force for Itachi not to be able to control the small amount in Gokus mind.

    Goku channels his ki through flight, speed, strength etc, but I dont recall much concerning his mind. Its reasonable to suggest in this battle, Goku will do what he often does, amp with his ki all his physical faculties like his speed, strength etc which would reduce ki in his mind if that concept is even comparable.

  78. Tarbel March 26, 2013 at 12:09 pm -      #4178

    Itachi has to control Goku’s cranial nerves by using chakra.
    Goku’s entire body has a vast amount of ki. Thus his cranial nerves has a large amount of ki.
    In DB, ki interacts with ki; ki blasts that can destroy mountains and more can/are casually deflected or blocked with the body due to ki interaction.
    In Naruto, chakra can interact with chakra, but can also bypass chakra; Rasengan hits a Chidori; genjutsu bypasses the chakra emanating from the body.
    With elemental compatibility in place, does ki block chakra, or does chakra bypass ki?
    -
    -
    Someone claims Itachi can use genjutsu to trick Goku, thus chakra can bypass ki and control the part of a body.
    Someone claims Goku’s ki can block the chakra.
    Burden of proof is on both claims, but as the genjutsu claim comes first, burden of proof is first on them.

  79. Doktor Doctor March 26, 2013 at 12:28 pm -      #4179

    Forty two goddamn pages. You people have a fetish for debating this xD
    -
    I stand with Tarbel still.

  80. Kitten Lord March 26, 2013 at 3:39 pm -      #4180

    @Tarbel

    “Goku, thus chakra can bypass ki and control the part of a body.”

    This is the illogical part that came before the other two claims, that ki has ot be bypassed or puts up any defence. This claim has to be proven, the question comes down to has Goku blocked or more importantly has any charactr in DBZ blocked anything like this techinque used by Itachi, or more has ki ever faced anything similiar? if the answer is no then it gets through, since theres no proven comparison or compatability between DBZ ki blasts and punches and something like Genjutsu.

  81. Tarbel March 26, 2013 at 3:46 pm -      #4181

    Burden of proof is on you to prove that chakra from genjutsu is different from normal chakra or ki.

  82. sadot06 March 26, 2013 at 3:53 pm -      #4182

    “Someone claims Itachi can use genjutsu to trick Goku, thus chakra can bypass ki and control the part of a body.
    Someone claims Goku’s ki can block the chakra.
    Burden of proof is on both claims, but as the genjutsu claim comes first, burden of proof is first on them.”

    _______________________________________
    It was already shown that Goku’s ki can’t block genjutsu. The counter claim was that Goku has too much ki in his cranial nerves to control. This hasn’t been proven by the Goku side, but then they told the Itachi side to prove Itachi could handle the unknown amount of ki in Goku’s cranial nerves by citing an example of Itachi using genjutsu on somebody with Goku’s level of energy. And here we are.

  83. sadot06 March 26, 2013 at 3:54 pm -      #4183

    “Burden of proof is on you to prove that chakra from genjutsu is different from normal chakra or ki.”

    Jesus, that was proven at least 20 pages ago

  84. Soulerous March 26, 2013 at 3:58 pm -      #4184

    @Kitten Lord- “Wrong, i am trying to explain to you that saying controlling 2 ki does not allow you to control 10k ki or a billion ki is not necessery true, you have not really explained away the gauge of ki and its difficulty to control in proportion to chakra in this move
    ~
    Lemme get this straight. I say you’re claiming they are the same. You say no, you’re claiming they are not necessarily different. I just explained how they are necessarily different. I just explained how they are definitely not the same. But wait: There is a way they could be the same.
    ~
    So, your problem is we don’t know how much effort it takes to control ki compared to how much it takes to control chakra? I agree, we do not know that. That was never an issue. For all we know, ki is a thousand times more difficult to control than chakra is. Or vice versa. Or perhaps Naruto characters have a harder time controlling a small amount of chakra than Dragon Ball characters have controlling an equal amount of ki. Or vice versa.
    ~
    All we do know is that the difficulty becomes greater with greater amounts. We know not the rate at which this happens, nor the starting point. It is not necessarily true that controlling 10,000 ki is more difficult than controlling 2 chakra?
    ~
    Rest assured, I am aware of the fact that everything has possibilities. It could be harder to control a cup of orange juice than it is 3 cups of whiskersauce. That’s always a possibility. But if someone has controlled only a cup of orange juice, they are simply not proven capable of controlling a greater amount of whiskersauce. Unless it’s proven, we still do not know that that they are equal, or that one is greater. All we know is they are different. All we know is that Itachi has not controlled one of them. They are different until proven otherwise. I explained this.
    ~
    youve yet to provide any reason to suggest ki would be hard for this move to control.
    -I’m afraid you are incorrect. The reason genjutsu can’t control this much ki is because it has not been shown to. Yet, it is possible it might have done that, right? By controlling a small amount of chakra, Itachi may have exhibited the ability to control a huge amount of ki, because ki might be much easier to control than chakra.
    ~
    It is a pointless point to point out. Again, I know there are possibilities. Everyone knows that. Our job is not to point out possibilities. It is to determine what we know, and we do not know that Itachi can do something he has not done. Thus, we cannot say he can do it.
    ~
    Itachi uses a technique with his Chakra Goku has never faced with his ki, simply handwaving it away and saying “Itachi cannot possibly control this much ki with his technique” when youve yet to make the comparison between “amount” of ki and difficulty to control is fallacious.
    ~
    On the contrary, the fallacious thing is claiming the technique can accomplish something it has not accomplished before. There is no fallacy in claiming Itachi’s genjutsu cannot control an amount of ki he has not controlled. He either can or cannot do it, and he can only do it if it is proven he can. The only way I would have to prove that Itachi cannot do this is if it were something we knew he could do.
    ~
    Sorry, I just don’t see where you’re coming from.
    ~
    Aslo to add to that does a tailed beast have “cranial nerves”?” -There’s no reason to think they don’t. I posted scans a few pages back showing how the nine-tails has an inner structure like mammals. It swallowed some people and has a stomach and gut made of meat. The only difference is the meat is composed of chakra, I guess.
    ~
    @Everyone- Is there something Kitten Lord is saying that I’m just not getting? Sorrow, do you see a point that I am oblivious to?

  85. Dassadec March 26, 2013 at 4:03 pm -      #4185

    @Everyone- Is there something Kitten Lord is saying that I’m just not getting? Sorrow, do you see a point that I am oblivious to?
    -
    Soul please refer to Goku vs Dante to see who you are dealing with. It may save you the headache here

  86. Kitten Lord March 26, 2013 at 4:18 pm -      #4186

    @Soulerous

    “Lemme get this straight”

    Why is it so hard? I just explained it. My point is you simply dont have enough information to compare whether ki is difficult for a Genjutsu to control or not, it has nothing to do with how hard it is for charactersi n their own universe to control their own ki, I am more interested in if Chakra definatly struggles controlling “more” Chakra but more importantly whether Ki has comparable statistics to Chakra in this regard.

    “I’m afraid you are incorrect. The reason genjutsu can’t control this much ki is because it has not been shown to. Yet, it is possible it might have done that, right? By controlling a small amount of chakra, Itachi may have exhibited the ability to control a huge amount of ki, because ki might be much easier to control than chakra.”

    You see the problem is, your using how hard it may be to control Chakra/ki by their owners, e.g. how hard it is to control ki for an attack or vice versa. That does not include how hard it may be for someone using this technique to control any amount of ki, it doesnt matter the point is ki having ot be controlled to fire blasts is not the same as being controlled to dominate someone, these are very different abilities here, I think a generalisation has been made.

    “There is no fallacy in claiming Itachi’s genjutsu cannot control an amount of ki he has not controlled.”

    “Sorry, I just don’t see where you’re coming from.”

    Clearly not, your making the assertion right there that Ki is somehow hard to control by something like a Genjutsu, you dont have a clue, its how feats work. Burdon of proof is on you, you have to prove ki is hard to control by something elemantally compatible with this move, since I know you probably cant, argueing back and forth that Itachi “has not controled X ki” is useless, you dont have a gauge on how much ki is comparable, not even sure if how much Chakra is important yet to be honest especially when the only gauge someone has to claim Goku has more “ki” than Itachi does Chakra is because he can blow more shit up….

    Does that make Genjitsu completly useless techinque because it doesnt blow anything up? It has nothing to do with busting anything.

    If we were discussing a regular mind control, your logic seems similiar to saying “Jim knows a lot about modern art, far more than anyone Itachi has ever controleld with Genjutsu, therefore prove Itachi can control someone like Jim”, point being that Jim knows a lot about art, Goku has a lot of ki apparently therefore your premise is that automatically, a “lot” of ki is somehow too much for Itachi, without really explaining why something is too much. So far the closest youve come to even trying to argue/explain that assertion is saying Goku has more ki because he can blow up more. As much as I have asked for it I dont have many specifics on Itachi (or anyone) implying too much Chakra was a case for him not being able to control someone.

    In lamens terms it seems thats your argument without specifics, Goku can bust/blow up more than anyone Itachi has controlled so he can resist it…..becuase he has “moar” ki…..

    I think the whole ki shield tihing is as I said being abused as a no limit fallacy, in truth its being hyped to protect Goku when in actuality, the only question thats important is whether or not Goku has resisted any mind powers of this nature. That could settle this, rather than using ambigious claims of ki/chakra comparisons.

  87. Kitten Lord March 26, 2013 at 4:20 pm -      #4187

    @Dassadec

    “Soul please refer to Goku vs Dante to see who you are dealing with. It may save you the headache here”

    Spoiling the well ftw! :) , Dassadec make an actual argument please do.

  88. Tarbel March 26, 2013 at 4:30 pm -      #4188

    @sadot06
    I think I just assumed it would work. I don’t remember it being proven although I wasn’t here the entire time.

  89. Kitten Lord March 26, 2013 at 4:34 pm -      #4189

    Just to re-iterate, someone claimed initially that a “lot” of ki is a factor and could stop/no sell Genjutsu, where is the logic/explanation behind this claim?

  90. Dassadec March 26, 2013 at 4:44 pm -      #4190

    I’ve tried over and over providing evidence in this thread and better than my opinion, links scans videos the works. All you have done in here and every other thread is downplay the opposition’s evidence and rarely if ever supply evidence for your own claims. And then demand physics be suspended to suit your case while using physics 4 posts later or previous to say ” bills doesn’t hit that hard because Goku was only flung back X meters.” You are a hypocritical stain on FP.

  91. Kitten Lord March 26, 2013 at 4:55 pm -      #4191

    I dont make my own claims, I try and find out why people are making nonsensical claims and sometimes use analogies or suggestions to try and see their opinion, or make them see mine. Dont pretend youve shown tons of evidence to suggest Goku is going to block him.

    And what are you talking about concering using physics? I am not using any form of physics, nor am I scolding anyone for using physics at the moment, I am argueing spiritual forces and elemental compatability, dont be ridiculous.

    If I am a hypnocritical stain, your a hypocritical stain and whats more a troll for only able to devolve into fallacies against a persons character when you struggle to argue your claims :)

  92. Dassadec March 26, 2013 at 5:21 pm -      #4192

    Not really my claims, as I still never changed my stance tht itachi would win this match. Even though I have been debating for the Goku side as well. There were good points raised for Goku and I contributed videos and scans to support said points as well as scans and clips for itachi, regarding his abilities.

  93. Max81 March 26, 2013 at 5:24 pm -      #4193

    @dassedec
    if you think Itachi can win, why do you think Genjutsu can work?
    -
    if we can prove that it can we can resolve this match.
    -
    so please if you see seomthing we aren’t seeing can you help us?

  94. Kitten Lord March 26, 2013 at 5:25 pm -      #4194

    So wheres the part about Gokus ki being a factor in being a problem for Itachis Genjutsu?

  95. Dassadec March 26, 2013 at 5:30 pm -      #4195

    Mikes claim

  96. Commander Cross March 26, 2013 at 5:30 pm -      #4196

    Itachi may be a dangerous foe, but while his Sharingan techniques may be a legit threat and the main reason he’s holding out for this long is due to how he knows how to use it*, he’s not exactly at Post-Endor Luke Skywalker’s levels for in case the plans of the Sharingan’s abilities go to hell in a hurry.
    If Itachi makes one severe mishap, its the end of him in here.

    1.) (Among other things like the New DBZ movie not being released!)

  97. Kitten Lord March 26, 2013 at 5:34 pm -      #4197

    Well the new movie may not be released but somehow we have some clips of it in here. Is that against embargo or something?

  98. therealbs March 26, 2013 at 5:36 pm -      #4198

    so the argument is now about whether itachi could control goku even thoufgh he has a massive amount of ki?
    If thats the case in naruto is it ever stated that a genjustu controls a targets chakra or merely disrupts it?

  99. Tarbel March 26, 2013 at 5:36 pm -      #4199

    @Kitten Lord
    From what I get:
    Ki increases durability to ki attacks.
    Chakra doesn’t exactly do that unless a technique is used.
    Ki interacts with ki.
    We (at least I) don’t know if chakra bypasses ki, so it should interact with ki when facing it.
    Goku’s body is filled with a much larger amount of ki than any Naruto character, and there would be a larger amount of ki in Goku’s nervous system than any known Naruto character.
    This ki should react with Itachi’s chakra and provide a resistance to control of Goku’s senses.

  100. Dassadec March 26, 2013 at 5:37 pm -      #4200

    There is no embargo on Japan dude , its a preview just like a commercial

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