Goku Vs Itachi Uchiha

Goku (Dragonball Z) Vs Itachi Uchiha (Naruto)

Here is a match in which I’ll confess to not know much other than that Goku can go head to head with Superman, so that must mean something.

So, dear reader, who wins this fight?

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3,814 Comments on "Goku Vs Itachi Uchiha"

  1. Amm0vamp1r3 March 17, 2013 at 1:11 pm -      #3601

    So genjutsu wont effect him……………so goku wins? wow that flipped on me

  2. Motor314 March 17, 2013 at 1:15 pm -      #3602

    @soul
    it has never been shown that simply placing have much more chakra will stop a genjutsu from being cast, in any case we don’t know how much ki goku has in his body. for all we know he could have less than a tailed beast.
    -
    I mean goku came from a planet, so goku is from a planets energy. the energy in a planet is finite. So its hard to say that goku has a planets worth of energy because he came from Planet vegeta, and since the planets energy is finite, goku is simply a normal being with a normal amount of ki in his body.
    -
    now listen, i have triedto make this argument before.
    -
    goku busting a planet is not due to launching planets worth of ki to busting a planet, its due to the amount of concentration not to mention phsycis .
    -
    for example freiza’s death ball, he creates a ball that is so heavy that it sinks to the bottom of the planet, and it combusts the planet from within due to a series of internal implosions.
    -
    the death ball itself is only moutian destruction level, www.youtube.com/watch?v=Afe2seRtQuY however when it sinks to the core of the planet it can certainly bust it.
    -
    the sam is true to with piccolo’s attack that he used to bust the moon, the blast is creates such a massive impact that shatters the moon instantly just like piccolo.
    -
    Goku has alot of ki and power that is indeed true, however he doesn’t have a planets worth of energy, (until super saiyan power ups, mainly due to the fact taht the power ups boost his ki what? 4000 fold?)
    -
    Goku going ssj3 drew so much energy into him that he nearly busted the planet itself.
    -
    but in any case, Goku has a finite limit of ki, we just know that he doesn’t have a planets worth of energy, because he can from a planet, since the planet has finite energy, him having more than a planet is illogical.
    -
    how much energy does goku have?
    -
    we don’t know, we just know that Itachi has to control less than 1/1000, that means itachi has to control less than 1/1000 of a planets energy.
    -
    itachi put killer B which had the enitre 8 tails chakra inside of him, which posseses 1/9 of a worlds energy, since the 10 tails created the world, it posseses about a worlds worth of energy, this is confirmed in later chapters.
    -
    if Itachi could control 1/9 of a worlds energy with ease, he can easily contain 1/1000 of a worlds energy(goku).
    -
    you see soul, Itachi can easily place goku in a genjutsu.
    -

  3. Mike March 17, 2013 at 1:19 pm -      #3603

    wow motor, you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about……i honestly don’t know where to start with that post….

  4. TheSorrow March 17, 2013 at 1:26 pm -      #3604

    Motor we have been over the planet-busting claim before, why you bother bringing up now is beyond my comprehension.

  5. Amm0vamp1r3 March 17, 2013 at 1:28 pm -      #3605

    @Mike start from the bottom,always the best way to go (by bottom I what you feel is least absurd)

  6. Soulerous March 17, 2013 at 1:32 pm -      #3606

    I’m sorry Motor, but that post is full of stuff we have gone over already. Summarized, the fact is Itachi hasn’t controlled anyone with as much ki as Goku, and thus he cannot.

  7. Dassadec March 17, 2013 at 1:32 pm -      #3607

    Goku has alot of ki and power that is indeed true, however he doesn’t have a planets worth of energy,
    -
    His saiyan saga Kamehameha that overpowered Vegeta’s Planetbusting Galick gun says otherwise…

  8. sadot06 March 17, 2013 at 2:44 pm -      #3608

    @Soul

    Mike’s response was full of crap.

    Ki is focused at the center of the body: www.dbz.tv/3/watch/dragonball-z-episode-192/

    Genjutsu does distort the senses by pouring one’s own chakra through the cranial nerves and then the caster controls the chakra. Me and you already covered this, but Mike hates facts. But how could Goku have this overwhelming amount of ki in his brain? As I showed above, it’s in the center of the body. You know how seizures are caused? A disruption in the electrical impulses. Cranial nerves don’t function properly if there is too much sensory activity. That’s part of genjutsu’s effectiveness. Goku wouldn’t be able to function properly if he walked around with that much ki just in the cranial nerves. Sending a surge would make it worse. You break genjutsu by totally stopping the chakra flow, which breaks the hold, then surging it through your body which wakes you up. Pouring ki into your cranial nerves, (assuming Goku even knows what those are) is just going to make it worse.

    He also ignored by point completely about superiority in strength being enough to block genjutsu. I cited the example of Kurenai, a leaf village ninja in Naruto being able to briefly put Itachi in a genjutsu, despite being vastly weaker.

  9. The King of Games March 17, 2013 at 2:59 pm -      #3609

    I’m satrating to wonder who has the worst fanbase animes or video games?

  10. Mike March 17, 2013 at 3:28 pm -      #3610

    @sadot06
    -that doesn’t say it’s in the center of your body, it says to “listen to the center of your body, then you can bring it out”. it very well could be a metaphor and doesn’t mean its concentrated there in the first place. that, and it’s a way to show you how to begin to use your ki taught by gohan who says he doesn’t know how to teach at all and it’s very obvious he doesn’t. like i said before, learn what’s viable information before you make claims.

  11. sadot06 March 17, 2013 at 3:35 pm -      #3611

    @Mike

    You’re grasping at straws. The video is obvious.

  12. The King of Games March 17, 2013 at 3:44 pm -      #3612

    If your trying to say all ki is in the center of the body then that means there isn’t any for Itachi to grab in the brain to control at all. If your trying to say there is a small amount for Itachi to control there is no way to prove that at all. Why would a body that handles ki not be able to handle any in the brain? Saiyan’s born with a natural gift of ki control.

  13. Envoy March 17, 2013 at 4:08 pm -      #3613

    “Ki is supposed to be amassed in the center of the body in DBZ. There is no way Goku has a ton of power running through his cranial nerves as it would screw up his senses.”
    +
    Where the hell is this stated?

  14. Soulerous March 17, 2013 at 4:22 pm -      #3614

    @Sadot06- “Mike’s response was full of crap.“-Well, that made me laugh.
    ~
    You know how seizures are caused? A disruption in the electrical impulses. Cranial nerves don’t function properly if there is too much sensory activity.
    -Sure, but let us not assume that ki would do that to anyone in Dragon Ball. It’s a natural part of all living things, after all.
    ~
    As I showed above, it’s in the center of the body.” -That’s only evidence though, not proof, and it is open to interpretation. It may be centered or based in the center/core of the body, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that’s where it all resides or even that it’s unevenly distributed. And our other evidence suggests that interpretation is indeed incorrect.
    ~
    It permeates the entire body, which is how the characters can become so strong and durable. It can be expelled from seemingly any part of them, and it covers the whole body when the characters power up and display their aura. When Goku gives energy to Frieza it is absorbed throughout his form. When Krillin and Gohan give their energy to Piccolo it is channeled from their entire bodies. What I saw in the video isn’t nearly so definitive, unless it’s something that happened past a handful of minutes, in which case you really should have specified time.
    ~
    Pouring ki into your cranial nerves, (assuming Goku even knows what those are) is just going to make it worse.” -Goku would not know how to disrupt the technique. And if he didn’t have ki throughout his body there’d be none for Genjutsu to control, isn’t that right?
    ~
    He also ignored by point completely about superiority in strength being enough to block genjutsu. I cited the example of Kurenai, a leaf village ninja in Naruto being able to briefly put Itachi in a genjutsu, despite being vastly weaker.
    -Did he ignore that? Well, Itachi can obviously use Genjutsu on someone more powerful than him. The problem is Goku has more ki than Itachi has been known to control.
    ~
    So yes, something definitive is needed to prove ki isn’t distributed throughout the body like everything else suggests it is.

  15. Envoy March 17, 2013 at 4:31 pm -      #3615

    Ah, I see. Its an anime only line.
    Good job, sadot.
    +
    www.mangapanda.com/105-3078-1/dragon-ball/chapter-429.html

  16. TheSorrow March 17, 2013 at 4:45 pm -      #3616

    Oh man this thread has gone back and forth between who would be more likely to win so many times in just a few weeks. Very rare to see that in a thread.

  17. The King of Games March 17, 2013 at 4:48 pm -      #3617

    It’s because both characters are from popular animes.

  18. Amm0vamp1r3 March 17, 2013 at 4:50 pm -      #3618

    and because there powers are on two different sides of the spectrum.

  19. The King of Games March 17, 2013 at 5:01 pm -      #3619

    That too. I mean Chakra and Ki are like 5% compatible when they are laid out and analyzed.

  20. sadot06 March 17, 2013 at 5:22 pm -      #3620

    @Sadot06- “Mike’s response was full of crap.“-Well, that made me laugh.
    ~
    You know how seizures are caused? A disruption in the electrical impulses. Cranial nerves don’t function properly if there is too much sensory activity.”
    -Sure, but let us not assume that ki would do that to anyone in Dragon Ball. It’s a natural part of all living things, after all.
    ___________________________
    Ki is energy, it doesn’t matter what it’s apart of. Energy isn’t supposed to be in large quantities when going through the cranial nerves, that’s a major part of genjutsu. Just because something is part of living things doesn’t mean it can’t do it harm, i.e. bacteria.
    ____________________________
    “As I showed above, it’s in the center of the body.” -That’s only evidence though, not proof, and it is open to interpretation. It may be centered or based in the center/core of the body, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that’s where it all resides or even that it’s unevenly distributed. And our other evidence suggests that interpretation is indeed incorrect.”

    “It permeates the entire body, which is how the characters can become so strong and durable. It can be expelled from seemingly any part of them, and it covers the whole body when the characters power up and display their aura. When Goku gives energy to Frieza it is absorbed throughout his form. When Krillin and Gohan give their energy to Piccolo it is channeled from their entire bodies. What I saw in the video isn’t nearly so definitive, unless it’s something that happened past a handful of minutes, in which case you really should have specified time.”

    __________________________
    That’s poor semantics. Evidence is proof. It’s fairly straightfoward and its canon. And the durability stuff you’re talking about is from focusing ki into a specific body part to increase its outward ability to withstand physical impact or create a force field that surrounds the body. Nothing about powering up parts of your brain.
    ~
    “Pouring ki into your cranial nerves, (assuming Goku even knows what those are) is just going to make it worse.” -Goku would not know how to disrupt the technique. And if he didn’t have ki throughout his body there’d be none for Genjutsu to control, isn’t that right?”
    __________________________
    Huh? What do you mean? He just needs the proper brain structure and some energy running through his cranial nerves.
    _______________-
    “He also ignored by point completely about superiority in strength being enough to block genjutsu. I cited the example of Kurenai, a leaf village ninja in Naruto being able to briefly put Itachi in a genjutsu, despite being vastly weaker.”
    -”Did he ignore that? Well, Itachi can obviously use Genjutsu on someone more powerful than him. The problem is Goku has more ki than Itachi has been known to control.”
    _____________________
    You’re missing the point, the other side hasn’t proven that A. genjutsu can’t be done if you’re weaker, since again Kuranai is way weaker than Itachi so by the logic being used her genjutsu should have not worked at all. B. Goku has too much chakra in his cranial nerves to control. The human brain has 12 cranial nerves. Itachi could manipulate 1 and it’d be enough to screw Goku up.
    _____________________
    “So yes, something definitive is needed to prove ki isn’t distributed throughout the body like everything else suggests it is.”

    _____________________
    Only speculation suggests it’s evenly distributed throughout the body.

  21. The King of Games March 17, 2013 at 5:31 pm -      #3621

    Aren’t you also speculating that only a little is distributed throughtout the body though?

  22. Amm0vamp1r3 March 17, 2013 at 5:32 pm -      #3622

    Yea it seems both sides are speculating with possibly the same amount of ground.

  23. sadot06 March 17, 2013 at 5:40 pm -      #3623

    “except the movies and the games aren’t which it uses, and the books are written not as storyline, just as the opinions of people that watched them and of opinions of people from another magazine that had opinions on them.” – Mike

    “This Daizenshuu, the 7th and final one, is a huge Dragon Ball encyclopedia. I think the staff who make these books always have a rough time of it, but this one looked even more hellish than usual. They really did a great job. I am ridiculously forgetful, so despite being the author there is lots of stuff even I do not know anymore. It was often quite a nuisance, and I think having this encyclopedia around when the series was still running would have really helped me out. Darn it all. Anyway, my thanks to the staff, and to all Dragon Ball fan.”
    — Akira Toriyama, Daizenshuu 7, 1996

  24. sadot06 March 17, 2013 at 5:41 pm -      #3624

    I’m saying based on the evidenced that most of the ki is amassed in the center.

  25. The King of Games March 17, 2013 at 5:48 pm -      #3625

    That maybe true but that isn’t enough proof to say there isn’t enough to be too much for Itachi to control.

  26. sadot06 March 17, 2013 at 5:55 pm -      #3626

    There isn’t proof that a difference in overall chakra level has any bearing on genjutsu. The evidence says that it isn’t enough to make you immune. Itachi only has to control a few nerves. There’s no proof that Goku has that much running through his cranial nerves anyway.

  27. The King of Games March 17, 2013 at 6:02 pm -      #3627

    Isn’t the proof the fact that genjutsu isn’t used on more powerful people at all? Kurenai didn’t catch Itachi in the genjutsu he reflected it without even trying.

  28. sadot06 March 17, 2013 at 6:12 pm -      #3628

    She did catch him. But he reversed it because he’s better at genjutsu than she is. Powerful people do get put under genjutsu. Are you saying it doesn’t work on them? Mifune, Naruto (has tailed beast), Killer Bee (has tailed beast), Orochumaru, Deidara, Danzo, Sasuke, the 4th Mizukagi (had tailed beast), the 3rd Hokage, etc.

  29. The King of Games March 17, 2013 at 6:23 pm -      #3629

    My understanding of Genjutsu is that it’s more about control then power which I get. Waht I’m saying is there must be a reason why it isn’t used far more often then it is if it’s so effected. I mean why would the First and Madra have to fight if genjutsu was an option? There is clearly some sort of limit of control otherwise I see no reason why the idea of fighting certain people would be terrifying when you have genjutsu. Again I don’t see why any of this matters when Goku wins with the first punch. There really isn’t a reason why he would get caught in genjutsu besides CIS which is removed so he can fight in the first place.

  30. sadot06 March 17, 2013 at 6:39 pm -      #3630

    We don’t know how the whole battle between the 1st and Madara went down. But we do know that the 1st knew Madara and the Uchia very well. The strategy is to not make eye contact. The only genjutsu in Naruto that does what you’re talking about is Shishui’s mind control, which is gone, and Izanami, which requires a charge up and 2 Mangekyko’s. Madara just used Susanoo and the 9 tails in the fight from what we saw. In Naruto the strongest genjutsu users have Sharingans. Unfortuntely there are only 4 left in the show that have them and one is technically a zombie. But fighting people with genjutsu is terrifying, that’s why they prep. Like the sound 4 ninja who used sound based genjutsu. She’s tough to fight, but with prep they knew to stay out of her range and take away her flute. I don’t see Goku winning with the 1st punch. Even getting tripped up by genjutsu for a few seconds is enough to end him. And with Edo Itachi that one punch isn’t doing much.

  31. The King of Games March 17, 2013 at 6:45 pm -      #3631

    If Goku could Recoome who is far more durible then Itachi with one punch what makes you think Itachi won’t go down? We aren’t using Edo Itachi so i don’t get why you even brought him up. There also isn’t a realistic scenario fro Goku to be caught in genjutsu without CIS. ALso it would a NLF to say you can be caught in genjutsu no matter how powerful they are. Even more so when it requires taking control of that person’s energy.

  32. sadot06 March 17, 2013 at 6:51 pm -      #3632

    The only reason we didn’t use Edo Itachi is because of fear of a stomp. There is no reason not to use him. There is no CIS whatsoever in a fighter in DBZ making eye contact with their opponent. The Goku supporters failed to prove that many pages back. It’s not a NLF. Goku isn’t a cosmic being, he has no mental blocks, and genjutsu isn’t about totally overpowering somebody. It’s exploiting an inherent weakness in mammal-like physiology.

  33. Amm0vamp1r3 March 17, 2013 at 6:56 pm -      #3633

    Been watchin just to fix a few things or ask some stuff
    -
    “we didn’t use Edo Itachi is because of fear of a stomp”
    -
    If we aren’t using him then what TKoG about the punch is true
    -
    “Goku isn’t a cosmic being, he has no mental blocks, and genjutsu isn’t about totally overpowering somebody. It’s exploiting an inherent weakness in mammal-like physiology”
    -
    We all know you don’t have to be cosmic to block it,It is about Controlling there energy right? And enherent weakness as in Fear,Pain and Sorrow which would be hard pressed to use against Goku as said before

  34. The King of Games March 17, 2013 at 7:05 pm -      #3634

    I already pointed out how it’s impossible to say Goku would make eye contact when you can’t even prove he’s made eye contact before. The CIS I was talking about was him standing to analyze Itachiw hich he wouldn’t need to do.

  35. sadot06 March 17, 2013 at 7:07 pm -      #3635

    -
    “we didn’t use Edo Itachi is because of fear of a stomp”
    -
    If we aren’t using him then what TKoG about the punch is true
    ________________________
    Didn’t say it wasn’t. I just pointed out that if we use Edo, which we could, his one punch thing is out the window. I know if Goku doesn’t punch a clone, a log, or Susanoo, then yeah, it’s over for Itachi.
    -
    “Goku isn’t a cosmic being, he has no mental blocks, and genjutsu isn’t about totally overpowering somebody. It’s exploiting an inherent weakness in mammal-like physiology”
    -
    We all know you don’t have to be cosmic to block it,It is about Controlling there energy right? And enherent weakness as in Fear,Pain and Sorrow which would be hard pressed to use against Goku as said before”

    ________________
    You mentioned cosmic being, but not mental blocks. Another big factor. Goku doesn’t fall under either category.

    It’s disrupting the victim’s senses with their own energy and then manipulating the energy in the cranial nerves to create illusions. That fear and sorrow stuff was brought up during the Tsukuyomi discussion and team Goku failed to prove any of it.

  36. The King of Games March 17, 2013 at 7:25 pm -      #3636

    Pointing out that using emotional tatics on Goku wouldn’t really work because as shown in DBZ all it would do is strengthen him not weaken him isn’t showing anything? The controlling the opponents energy is the part where we bump heads. There is no reason to believe there isn’t a limit to how much Itachi can control and it would be foolish to say that it doesn’t matter how much energy the opponent has he can control them. Also is there really a point in bringing up mental blocks when no one in Naruto has them and yet they seem to do just fine without them.

  37. sadot06 March 17, 2013 at 7:36 pm -      #3637

    Mental blocks are a line of defense that could, if they were present in DBZ, be used to make the argument that Goku could defend against genjutsu. That’s relevant. Saying because Naruto characters do “fine” (whatever that means) without them, thus they aren’t relevant makes zero sense. Genjutsu comes from that universe so there are defenses for the various types that are established. I’m sure there is a limit to the chakra Itachi can control. But there’s no satisfactory evidence that Goku has too much power in his cranial nerves to be manipulated.

  38. Amm0vamp1r3 March 17, 2013 at 7:39 pm -      #3638

    I don’t understand what happend
    -
    How much power is in the cranial nerve?
    -
    So people with out defense in Naruto are screwed just as much as Goku?

  39. sadot06 March 17, 2013 at 7:53 pm -      #3639

    That’s what’s been argued. To be as specific as I can, genjutsu targets the cranial nerves. There are 12 of them. Each controlling aspects of the senses. Even throwing off 1 or 2 can drastically mess up your day because one for instance effects your balance. The damage occurs by filling the cranial nerve (s) with your own energy and then manipulating the rest of the energy already there as well. Team Goku is arguing that there is so much power running through Goku’s cranial nerves that Itachi can’t do anything. My counter was that there is no proof Goku has that much energy in his cranial nerves, because A. that would screw up his senses, and B. the evidence I provided shows most of the Ki is in the body’s center. Itachi has not failed to put somebody in a genjutsu in Naruto, even if they had more overall chakra and possessed knowledge of genjutsu.

  40. The King of Games March 17, 2013 at 8:08 pm -      #3640

    Your making a claim that you can’t prove. Your trying to say there isn’t enough energy just because a lot of it is centered in the body when that doesn’t say how much is in every other part of the body.

  41. Soulerous March 17, 2013 at 8:50 pm -      #3641

    Let’s examine more closely the exact words used in Episode 192 of Dragonball Z. I’ll go ahead and bold the most relevant part.
    ~
    “I’ll do it slowly. That way you can watch me better. The first thing you have to do is make yourself completely calm. Then you listen. Listen to the center of your body until you start to feel a pull. Then… you just bring it out! There. You see?”
    ~
    Notice how Gohan doesn’t say you bring it out of your center. His words could definitely be up for interpretation. However, we do get an image to accompany his words. It shows a small shape, his ki, glowing in his stomach. A ball of ki then appears between his hands.
    ~
    Then at about 12:50 Gohan says “Feel the energy from your stomach and slowly bring it out.”
    ~
    Now, this could mean that all of a character’s ki is pooled at that spot in the stomach. It could mean only most of it is. Most likely it means it’s the nexus and the focus of ki varies.
    ~
    We know characters can draw it out and we know they can power up, which floods their body with energy. Powering up makes them more powerful (duh), and they can also hide their energy and suppress their full power, as seen in the fight between Goku and Frieza, presumably by focusing their ki back into their core. Wow, it makes perfect sense.
    ~
    So the questions from there would be: Would Goku start the fight at full power? Would he start at minimum power? Or would he start somewhere in-between?
    ~
    Oh, and ki doesn’t mess with peoples’ brains in Dragon Ball. Thoughts on any of this? It’s right before my bed time and I’m very sleepy, just so you know.

  42. sadot06 March 17, 2013 at 9:14 pm -      #3642

    @Soul

    Sounds like most of the ki starts where Gohan indicated based on your description of what the video shows. Also it was established that Goku is starting in base form. And what do you mean ki doesn’t mess with peoples’ brains in Dragon Ball? There really isn’t much of it attack wise, but then what about Ginyu’s conscious swap or telepathy? Dragon Ball doesn’t explain enough.

  43. sadot06 March 17, 2013 at 9:16 pm -      #3643

    “Your making a claim that you can’t prove. Your trying to say there isn’t enough energy just because a lot of it is centered in the body when that doesn’t say how much is in every other part of the body.”

    Goku functioning normally is proof that he doesn’t have that much energy concentrated in the cranial nerves at all times.

  44. The King of Games March 17, 2013 at 9:19 pm -      #3644

    You don’t even know what ki would do to that brain because it’s never talked about. There is also the fact that Saiyans are built tougher meaning for all we know he could handle the amount of energy in his body. Another note appearently Goku can use the Super Saiyan God power whenever he feels like just by remembering it.
    dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Dragon_Ball_Z:_Battle_of_Gods

  45. sadot06 March 17, 2013 at 9:43 pm -      #3645

    So much speculation. And rehashed at that. Goku’s brain fits the requirements for genjutsu. And let’s actually watch the movie before introducing it.

  46. The King of Games March 17, 2013 at 10:23 pm -      #3646

    Your speculating as well so it doesn’t really matter does it? The movie hardly effects this besides showing what Goku can really do at the End of Z. Which let’s face it doesn’t matter because the first punch ends this and Goku will make the first move.

  47. PrimusxPilus March 17, 2013 at 11:10 pm -      #3647

    The speculations and assumptions are astounding. Stating that Kakarot can’t have substantial ki because it’ll negatively affect his brain has no substantiation and is utterly ridiculous. For all the proclivity to call speculation on the Kakarot supporters, there is much hypocrisy on the Naruto side. Assumptions on how Saiyan physiology world, distribution of ki, and now “hur dur his own ki would affect him as chakra does so therefore let’s foist our assumptions on another fiction”. Please. Do better than this BankGambling

  48. Commander Cross March 17, 2013 at 11:21 pm -      #3648

    @Senior Praetor Primus

    Would you mind paying this thread a visit in here?

    I was hoping you could have a look at it.

    *Main issue returns*

    When is the movie going to be released?

  49. Envoy March 17, 2013 at 11:25 pm -      #3649

    “Let’s examine more closely the exact words used in Episode 192 of Dragonball Z. I’ll go ahead and bold the most relevant part.”
    +
    It isn’t in the manga so why bother?
    =
    “Goku functioning normally is proof that he doesn’t have that much energy concentrated in the cranial nerves at all times.”
    +
    Considering the fact that higher power levels grant better sight, then yes he most likely does have it in the brain.

  50. TheSorrow March 17, 2013 at 11:43 pm -      #3650

    Fun times all around.

  51. sadot06 March 18, 2013 at 12:48 am -      #3651

    *yawn*

    Anyway @Commander Cross the movie hits theaters in Japan on the 30th. I hear it may be available as an english sub a few days later.

  52. Soulerous March 18, 2013 at 8:07 am -      #3652

    It isn’t in the manga so why bother?
    -I really should have asked that to begin with.

  53. sadot06 March 18, 2013 at 11:21 am -      #3653

    “It isn’t in the manga so why bother?”
    -I really should have asked that to begin with.

    ____________
    Because it’s canon and doesn’t contradict anything previously established.

  54. Envoy March 18, 2013 at 11:24 am -      #3654

    “Because it’s canon and doesn’t contradict anything previously established.”
    +
    Other than dialoge in the manga of course.

  55. sadot06 March 18, 2013 at 11:27 am -      #3655

    Unless the dialog previously established where ki is located, I don’t care.

  56. Soulerous March 18, 2013 at 11:33 am -      #3656

    It’s debatable to some degree, but sources say if it isn’t in the manga, it is not canon. Here is a good explanation.
    ~
    However, I believe that Mike argued all of the anime (besides GT of course) is legally canon because it has the official rights. So he’s really on your side for this one.

  57. sadot06 March 18, 2013 at 11:45 am -      #3657

    “It’s debatable to some degree, but sources say if it isn’t in the manga, it is not canon. Here is a good explanation.
    ~
    However, I believe that Mike argued all of the anime (besides GT of course) is legally canon because it has the official rights. So he’s really on your side for this one.”

    ___________________
    Yeah I was doing some research to see what’s going on since it’s all over the place. Fan bases tend to go their own way if they don’t like something. Technically all officially released media is canon, even GT since Akira actually helped write it. But for the purpose of debates certain things are specified, and when they aren’t people tend to throw around “rules” that aren’t actually real to benefit them. I think as long as it doesn’t contradict something already established in the story, it’s canon.

  58. Soulerous March 18, 2013 at 12:07 pm -      #3658

    That stance on it is equally as valid as the other one, in my opinion. Since there is no official ruling, it should be entirely up to the battle scenario.

  59. Envoy March 18, 2013 at 1:44 pm -      #3659

    “Unless the dialog previously established where ki is located, I don’t care.”
    +
    You should, that fact that it was added in the anime means it is a contradiction. Gohan didn’t say that so how could you?
    =
    As a general rule, if it contradicts the manga(or original source) its not canon. I use that for anything that doesn’t have a set canon rule, BankGambling itself goes by original source anyway.

  60. sadot06 March 18, 2013 at 1:54 pm -      #3660

    A contradiction would mean it contradicts something already established. If Kid Buu killed Goku and Vegeta in the anime, and destroyed the universe, that would be a contradiction.

  61. Mike March 18, 2013 at 1:58 pm -      #3661

    “A contradiction would mean it contradicts something already established.”
    -a contradiction would mean it was actually clear enough to contradict the other information. it is not. your “center” does not mean in the middle of the body necessarily when dealing with oriental spiritual powers like chi and such.

  62. Envoy March 18, 2013 at 2:07 pm -      #3662

    “A contradiction would mean it contradicts something already established.”
    +
    We know what Gohan said in manga, the anime contradicts the source as it gives different dialoge.

  63. The King of Games March 18, 2013 at 3:45 pm -      #3663

    Akira disregards GT and calls it a side story it’s non-canon. Dragon Ball Online ignores every piece of filler in the anime and GT and DBO is canon so yeah. GT and filler is non-canon just based on this.

  64. Max81 March 18, 2013 at 10:52 pm -      #3664

    I am not so sure that there was any condradiction, it seemed like it expanded what Gohan was saying instead of contradicting.
    -
    It is simply anime creating a better explanation that the manga, since the manga had limited space.
    -
    now its true we can disregard it as non-cannon, but at the same time i don’t really see a reason to, nothing was really contradicted and it was simply explaining the reason behind it.
    -

  65. Max81 March 18, 2013 at 10:54 pm -      #3665

    @sorrow post 3616
    very true very true.

  66. Soulerous March 19, 2013 at 9:37 am -      #3666

    In the original source, ki is said to flow inside the body. There is no mention of it being in the stomach or center anywhere in the chapter.

  67. Max81 March 19, 2013 at 9:52 am -      #3667

    @soul
    i knew there was proof ki flew throughout the body, earlier people were saying that ki didn’t.
    -
    so ki flows throughout the body of the user.
    -
    so what does this mean?
    -
    and btw is the match over, or it is still being debated?

  68. Soulerous March 19, 2013 at 10:40 am -      #3668

    If ki is spread equally throughout the body of Dragon Ball characters it means that Itachi’s Genjutsu is too weak to affect Goku.
    ~
    Since everything other than an added part not written by Akira Toriyama implies that it is evenly spread, that’s what I believe. We go by original source around here. It still can/will be debated in all likelihood, however.

  69. sadot06 March 19, 2013 at 10:55 am -      #3669

    It’s a weak implication. It’s quite a leap to say that means ki is distributed evenly throughout the body. And that Itachi can’t control any of the ki centered in Goku’s cranial nerves. We don’t know how much is there and we don’t even have an accurate measurement of the amount of chakra Itachi can control compared to the amount in Goku’s cranial nerves because the measurement of power level in DBZ isn’t all that accurate and doesn’t translate to Naruto.

  70. Dassadec March 19, 2013 at 11:00 am -      #3670

    Power levels are accurate til the frieza fight the only time they aren’t is when the earth fighters are hiding their Ki.

  71. Motor314 March 19, 2013 at 11:16 am -      #3671

    i am currently formulating an argument for genjutsu to work, however i am very busy lately, so it will be a while till i finish it.
    -
    so good-bye BankGambling for a bit, i will be back, i want to see this fight through.
    -
    no matter who wins, i want to see it end.
    -
    in any case thank you all for debating with me for the past 2,000+ comments.

  72. PrimusxPilus March 19, 2013 at 11:39 am -      #3672

    @sadot
    You’ve struck me as a competent debater. That tarnished it.
    1) it’s MORE of a leap to suggest that it’s NOT evenly distributed. You are speculating to support your side.
    -
    2) seeking your “center” could be a mental concept since their taking about oriental philosophies here. My center could be my balance, focus, finding my sense of calm/peace/oneness with the universe, etc. context of EASTERN PHILOSOPHIES would support this line of reasoning over “hur center = tummy”
    -
    3)
    The logic of “well itachi should control Kakarot because” still hasn’t been proven. You argue cranial nerves because of your bias that in Naruto excess chakra messes with them so Kakarot couldn’t because he’d mess himself up. That’s extremely stupid to argue as it’s a different fiction. Kakarot would therefore kill himself going gold even to first level.
    +
    Please ignore motor’s bias/without a shred of proof calculations that Kakarot’s head only has 1/1000 of the ki. There is NO support for these claims.
    4)
    Your assumption that itachi SHOULD because lack of accuracy is grasping at straws. Accuracy up to the end of Frieza saga is there. Again look at WHAT THE NUMBERS REPRESENT. All dbz fighters are planet busting potentially (minus the really weak ones).
    -
    Example: itachi can bench/llift two Abrams. Cool. Kakarot’s ki is a dozen aircraft carriers with standard loadouts. At BASE.
    -
    I know you can say i’m bias and whatever but the fact of the matter is I’m not. I’m just looking logically and using Occam’s razor.this Naruto guy seems pretty hax though and you’ve taught me a lot about him so thank you for that

  73. sadot06 March 19, 2013 at 1:00 pm -      #3673

    “You’ve struck me as a competent debater. That tarnished it.”
    ________________
    Lead with an insult. Off to a great start.

    “1) it’s MORE of a leap to suggest that it’s NOT evenly distributed. You are speculating to support your side.”
    _______________________
    I’m not speculating. I’m pointing out the fact that there isn’t enough evidence to support that claim. And you just admitted that it is a leap to suggest ki is evenly distributed. Degree is irrelevant, as my point was that it’s a leap, with no solid evidence.
    -
    2) seeking your “center” could be a mental concept since their taking about oriental philosophies here. My center could be my balance, focus, finding my sense of calm/peace/oneness with the universe, etc. context of EASTERN PHILOSOPHIES would support this line of reasoning over “hur center = tummy”

    _____________________
    The scene was more than just the center statement as Soul explained in detail. But it’s in question because of the claim that anime isn’t canon in this debate if it expands on something the manga doesn’t include.
    -
    3)
    “The logic of “well itachi should control Kakarot because” still hasn’t been proven. You argue cranial nerves because of your bias that in Naruto excess chakra messes with them so Kakarot couldn’t because he’d mess himself up. That’s extremely stupid to argue as it’s a different fiction. Kakarot would therefore kill himself going gold even to first level.”
    ________________________
    The argument isn’t “Itachi should,” Genjutsu works like this, by doing this. So the question is can Goku stop it. I argue cranial nerves because that’s how genjutsu works, it has nothing to do with bias. It’s a fact with a manga scan to prove it. My argument about excess energy in the cranial nerve is based on the science of the brain, which is consistent throughout any universe that uses real life physiology. I said nothing about Goku killing himself, I said having that much power just in the cranial nerves is uneccessary and would mess with his senses. There is no way however to prove definitively how much energy exactly is running through his brain as a whole, much less the cranial nerves because Dragon Ball unfortunately isn’t very detailed in this regard.

    +
    “Please ignore motor’s bias/without a shred of proof calculations that Kakarot’s head only has 1/1000 of the ki. There is NO support for these claims.”

    __________________
    I ignored the entire exchange between motor and the goku supporters about this. There was no evidence on either side.

    4)
    Your assumption that itachi SHOULD because lack of accuracy is grasping at straws. Accuracy up to the end of Frieza saga is there. Again look at WHAT THE NUMBERS REPRESENT. All dbz fighters are planet busting potentially (minus the really weak ones).

    _________________________
    I didn’t make an assumption at all actually if you read my post. I pointed out that the accuracy of power levels just in the DBZ universe is up for debate and thus far it has not accurately been applied to measure Naruto characters because they utilize chakra differently. Plus the only true planet buster (generates enough force to vaporize a planet) we’ve seen is Kid Buu. It’s assumed that Goku 3 can do the same, even though he was technically weaker, and Gotenks 3, since he’s a bit stronger than Goku 3. But there is no canon feat for the others and pure destructive power isn’t everything, especially since that level requires a lot of concentration and gathering of energy. Arguing planet buster potential as a deterrent for a mental based attack doesn’t make a whole lot of sense.
    -
    “Example: itachi can bench/llift two Abrams. Cool. Kakarot’s ki is a dozen aircraft carriers with standard loadouts. At BASE.”
    _____________________________
    That’s pure physical strength, which isn’t relevant at all to this part of the discussion because it’s so easily measurable and doesn’t determine who wins a fight in any universe.

    -
    “I know you can say i’m bias and whatever but the fact of the matter is I’m not. I’m just looking logically and using Occam’s razor.this Naruto guy seems pretty hax though and you’ve taught me a lot about him so thank you for that”
    _____________________________
    I won’t call you biased, though you’re clearly on Goku’s side, but as I pointed out, you were really just making a lot of assumptions and partly misunderstanding my posts.

  74. PrimusxPilus March 19, 2013 at 1:32 pm -      #3674

    @sadot
    Not an insult. You’d know if I was intending that, ask the others. I really was just talking but apologies if it was misconstrued. The internet really is a terrible medium.
    Anyways the main point it’s just as speculation for Kakarot supporters as it is for itachi’s so by using context for the distribution/location it more than likely isn’t concentrated in the center of the torso.
    -
    Also the Abram/carrier was apparently an analogy of their spiritual strengths that I conveyed poorly. Again apologies.
    -
    I may have misconstrued things but at the end of the day neither side has proven genjutsu will/won’t work to my satisfaction. Naruto says it’s permanent the strength of the opponents ki/chakra level, Dbz calls NLF. DBZ says he’ll not be affected without proof of passive intangible shielding. Personally of a character hasn’t handled something to the degree of their BankGambling opponent then it’s fallacious to claim such. I really have no interest in the victor but I wanted to see something happen here. Thank you sadot

  75. PrimusxPilus March 19, 2013 at 1:34 pm -      #3675

    Naruto says permanent should be “Naruto says it’s independent”. I read that they can catch stronger opponents. I believe this is a classic case of finesse vs raw strength

  76. sadot06 March 19, 2013 at 1:44 pm -      #3676

    Hence why I think this thread will probably just die eventually. Ever breakthrough ends up getting overturned. If Dragon Ball went into more detail we could have a more solid debate. I didn’t like this match to begin with. I think it stank of the arrogance of DBZ wankers who want to crap on other universes. I’ve watched both Naruto and Dragon Ball though so I weighed in because I didn’t think it was so cut and dry and that Itachi actually could potentially win since Goku didn’t have feats that would indicate he could tank Itachi’s moveset. I thought people would just wait for the movie but every time it’s suggested somebody jumped in with a declaration for their side.

  77. Soulerous March 19, 2013 at 1:45 pm -      #3677

    I’m not speculating. I’m pointing out the fact that there isn’t enough evidence to support that claim.
    -There’s more to support it than there is the claim it isn’t evenly spread. It is shown to exist in the entirety of the body in the clip I showed of Goku giving Frieza energy, Gohan and Krillin channeling it into Piccolo, and the great myriad of times we see characters power up. It doesn’t show it really well, but here is Goku absorbing energy for the Spirit Bomb into his whole body, not just his center.
    ~
    The only thing suggesting ki resides mostly in the stomach was made up for the anime. We are repeatedly told ki exists in the body, even that it flows inside it, but the source material never implies it is focused in any one part of it. That’s why I believe it is not.

  78. sadot06 March 19, 2013 at 1:48 pm -      #3678

    LIke the passive intangible shielding thing. I proved that genjutsu is intangible energy, but the DBZ side claimed Goku’s shield could block it despite A. not proving he had a passive shield and B. not proving he could block intangible energy. Then it turned into Goku has too much chakra in his cranial nerves for Itachi to control and because of the aformentioned lack of detail in Dragon Ball, there is no concrete proof either way so we’re stuck. Again.

  79. sadot06 March 19, 2013 at 1:55 pm -      #3679

    “There’s more to support it than there is the claim it isn’t evenly spread. It is shown to exist in the entirety of the body in the clip I showed of Goku giving Frieza energy, Gohan and Krillin channeling it into Piccolo, and the great myriad of times we see characters power up. It doesn’t show it really well, but here is Goku absorbing energy for the Spirit Bomb into his whole body, not just his center.
    ~
    The only thing suggesting ki resides mostly in the stomach was made up for the anime. We are repeatedly told ki exists in the body, even that it flows inside it, but the source material never implies it is focused in any one part of it. That’s why I believe it is not.”

    We know you can send ki to specific parts of your body in order to strengthen the durability, but there is no solid evidence at all that suggests where ki primarily rests or how it’s divided up if you don’t count the anime scene, which is canon, but by the unwritten rules it doesn’t count, then there is no proof either way. There just isn’t. Goku’s spirit bomb isn’t an example of anything. He’s absorbing other people’s energy, we see his aura, and we see the spirit bomb in his hand. That isn’t proof.

  80. Max81 March 19, 2013 at 2:22 pm -      #3680

    www.angelfire.com/dbz/thesayianelite/information/ki.htm
    this seems to talk a little bit about ki. if you read it, it tends to send the example that Ki is equivalent to daosism medicine. just Akira Toriyama(the creator of the series) to the idea to max and said that using your bodily ki, you can do amaziong things.
    Since this is a japanese show with japanese culture this makes alot of sense.
    i also feel like this was mentioned somwhere else in the manga, dbz fans a little help.
    in any case if ki is based solely on real life ki, which can be defined as being able to circulate the body.
    i don’t know if this can add to the debate or not, but maybe this can help us research alittle bit on the nature of qi, and maybe see the true definition is for ki.
    I remember Mike bringing up a interview by Akira saying ki was focuses in several places, if he can link that again maybe we can get somewhere.
    but in any case i am not sure what else to add to the debate.
    I mean we have what primus says, Finese vs strength, which i have to admit is pretty cool and we also have the NLF argument.
    to find the limits of genjutsu and to see if goku is within those limits or not is the main point of this debate, there really is nothing else. as sadot says. we are at a stalemate.
    What goku fans need to do is find more proof about ki
    what itachi fans need to do is find more proof about ki
    if we don’t we will continue to argue pointless, if just one argument can come on top we can use that one to seal the deal for either itachi or goku.
    so lets find that argument!
    lol
    but in any case the last 2 cents i can add is to look up real life qi which toriyama based it on, and if we can find what that is, maybe just maybe we can find the solution to this argument.
    -

  81. Soulerous March 19, 2013 at 2:40 pm -      #3681

    I proved that genjutsu is intangible energy, but the DBZ side claimed Goku’s shield could block it despite A. not proving he had a passive shield and B. not proving he could block intangible energy.
    -Mike claimed that, and him and I argued about it for far too long. In the end, I found clips proving that not even physical ki is passively blocked, but that it must be a conscious effort.
    ~
    Then it turned into Goku has too much chakra in his cranial nerves for Itachi to control and because of the aformentioned lack of detail in Dragon Ball, there is no concrete proof either way so we’re stuck. Again.
    -It’s rather funny, really. The anime is supposedly legal canon, yet the manga would undoubtedly be a higher form of it and BankGambling is said to use the original source. I simply can’t find that statement in the official rules.
    ~
    As for whether or not Genjutsu would work, the logic says it must control the chakra in the target’s brain, and it can’t control more than we know it can or else we would be extrapolating. If Itachi has used the technique on someone of a given power, and Goku has much more power than that someone, the ki in Goku’s cranial nerves is much more than the chakra in the someone’s cranial nerves. Itachi can’t control that much.
    ~
    But… how are we supposed to know if Itachi has to control all the ki in the cranial nerves or just some of it? I can’t say which.
    ~
    Goku’s spirit bomb isn’t an example of anything.” -It’s an example of how the energy he absorbed resided in his entire body, not the center, before he channeled it into his hand so he could throw it.
    ~
    @Max81- Sadly, the philosophies of chi in real life can’t help us understand what it is in Dragon Ball any more than it already has.

  82. sadot06 March 19, 2013 at 2:41 pm -      #3682

    We’d need a canon explanation of ki as it applies to Dragon Ball. Ki in Dragon Ball isn’t the same as Ki in real life, the idea of it was inspired by the ancient Chinese philosophy. That article is conjecture and opinion mixed with a real life explanation for fiction that doesn’t follow it. It’s the same as trying to understand chakra in Naruto by saying it’s exactly like chakra in real life. And the link you were talking about that Mike showed was a frequently misquoted and misunderstood excerpt from a Toriyama interview when he says a part of ki is courage, energy, and being in one’s right mind.

  83. Max81 March 19, 2013 at 3:18 pm -      #3683

    lol its funny that the debate will end like this. with the general consensus being
    “Can goku be caught in genjutsu”
    it beats me.

    there is one argument i feel that may be helpful,
    -
    motor touched briefly on this one.
    -
    the ki barrier, it resides all around goku, with so much ki that it can tank planet busting attacks.
    so how much ki is in that barrier? and what exactly does that mean for goku?
    -
    Itachi’s genjutsu can easily slide past that portion of the ki, and attack the cranial nerves, but will the left over amount of ki be enough?
    -
    it seems like this debate is going soely on speculation.
    -
    idk

  84. Max81 March 19, 2013 at 3:19 pm -      #3684

    other than that, i feel like this match is stuck, with neither side wanting to budge.
    -
    and unless one suitable argument is found it will remain stuck.

  85. Mike March 19, 2013 at 7:52 pm -      #3685

    “-Mike claimed that, and him and I argued about it for far too long. In the end, I found clips proving that not even physical ki is passively blocked, but that it must be a conscious effort.”
    -every single time ki is blocked at all without using a ki barrier or another ki blast it is blocked with the passive ki in their bodies, either by hand or by just tanking it. this is shown probably a hundred times in the series. you are wrong.
    -
    -
    “-It’s rather funny, really. The anime is supposedly legal canon, yet the manga would undoubtedly be a higher form of it and BankGambling is said to use the original source. I simply can’t find that statement in the official rules.”
    -BankGambling doesn’t have a written rule about it. being a factual based site it follows the rules of the franchises, one of which is the canon policies.
    -
    -
    “We’d need a canon explanation of ki as it applies to Dragon Ball.”
    -well if we take all of the information into account(something most don’t) from the whole episode link that max provided(think it was max, the link that supposedly had the center of body quote that didn’t have it), and from the manga link just put up recently, and from the episode put up recently also…..it is a spiritual energy that flows through the body that if you concentrate enough you can find your center and be able to control it.
    -
    -
    “And the link you were talking about that Mike showed was a frequently misquoted and misunderstood excerpt from a Toriyama interview when he says a part of ki is courage, energy, and being in one’s right mind.”
    -lol, in case you forgot……i only used that “quote” if it really was one…BECAUSE that’s the SAME wiki that you guys claimed proved that ki was centered in the body. it was in fact only a few sentences after the center quote. it seems the logic of how wiki’s should not be used has yet to sink in on your part…..
    -
    -
    “the ki barrier, it resides all around goku, with so much ki that it can tank planet busting attacks.
    so how much ki is in that barrier? and what exactly does that mean for goku?”
    -it’s not a barrier, it is essentially him. he is saturated with so much ki that it is impenetrable and unmovable by other ki of itachi’s level. if other’s estimates are close(78 kg i think was said earlier), then goku weighs about 172lbs(which i think is pretty low, but whatever). having 3million power level at base form and 200 being able to bust the moon…..(if spread evenly)
    -that’s 17,441 in each pound; 87 moon busts
    -1,090 in each ounce; about 5 and a half moon busts
    -about 38 in each gram; about 1/5th of a moon bust

  86. Motor314 March 19, 2013 at 9:24 pm -      #3686

    @everyone

    right now we are debating what we agreed on a couple thousand comments ago.
    -
    we agreed that goku will have a chakra network so Itachi can use genjutsu. this was made clear by alot of people and we all agreed on it.
    -
    so basically genjutsu works on one of the 126 chakra points in the body, the chakra point is the station point of the cranial nerves.
    -
    so this is where we stand does Goku in that one chakra point have so much ki, that Itachi can’t control? or is it to much for Itachi?
    -

  87. Mike March 19, 2013 at 9:29 pm -      #3687

    “so this is where we stand does Goku in that one chakra point have so much ki, that Itachi can’t control? or is it to much for Itachi?”
    -that question has been answered in many ways and with many reasonings, and the answer is always goku has too much chakra.

  88. The King of Games March 19, 2013 at 10:23 pm -      #3688

    We never agreeded that Goku has a chakra network at all. We areeded that ki = chakra for some reason. That doesn’t mean he has a chakra netwrok so I don’t know where you got that idea.

  89. Max81 March 19, 2013 at 11:54 pm -      #3689

    you know that AHA! moment when you solve a puzzle. i definetly feel that i found said answer.
    -
    Motor was on to something when he brought up chakra points however he was very very wrong.
    -
    what motor didn’t say that i feel is very importnat for you all to know, is that the chakra points are like gates.
    -
    you grab the gate, and you control the flow.
    -
    the Gate is just an acess point naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Tenketsu this is how the hyguus disable the victims with their gentle fist to stop the flow of chakra.
    -
    Itachi grabs the gate, and the gate will control the flow.
    -
    so the gate itself AIDS Itachi in controlling Goku.
    -
    The Gate will allow Itachi to put in his visions and hallucionations to defeat the siayan warrior.
    this is also how Itachi is able to overpower stronger opponents such as killer B and Naruto.
    -
    I hope this helps.

  90. Dassadec March 20, 2013 at 12:10 am -      #3690

    But grabbing the gate to begin with is the issue that comes next

  91. PrimusxPilus March 20, 2013 at 1:21 am -      #3691

    Again with the attempts to foist Naruto shit onto DBZ characters….
    *golf clap*

  92. sadot06 March 20, 2013 at 10:25 am -      #3692

    The gate concept won’t work. It’s the same problem as trying to use power levels on Naruto characters. It’s one thing to determine that Ki is compatitable to chakra, but the design of the chakra network is exclusive to Naruto. It can’t be applied to DBZ. We don’t even know how the “ki network” works in DBZ, otherwise we wouldn’t be stuck. Despite Mike’s confidence, he’s presented zero proof from the manga to back any of it up. We don’t know how much Ki Goku has in any part of his body. We’re also overlooking the fact that genjutsu is finesse over power, but we first need to establish what’s in Goku’s cranial nerves with enough evidence. Right now there’s nothing concrete.

  93. Soulerous March 20, 2013 at 11:55 am -      #3693

    The knowledge from episode 192 tells us that ki is amassed in roughly the stomach region, meaning either that Goku has no ki in his cranial nerves for Itachi to control or that the amount is small enough for him to control.
    ~
    The knowledge given by the manga tells us that ki is evenly distributed throughout the body; it does not say it in those terms, but that conclusion features the fewest assumptions.
    ~
    Goku has a lot of ki in his brain or he has little to none. That’s a big difference. The correct conclusion depends on which definition of canon we are using.
    ~
    The only issue I see no answer to is that of Genjutsu requiring the control of all ki in the victim’s cranial nerves vs only part of it.
    ~
    Yes, I expect disagreements.

  94. Max81 March 20, 2013 at 1:52 pm -      #3694

    alright i think i got it this time.
    -
    What do we know so far?
    Goku has a ki barrier, that genjutsu can get past.
    -
    we also know that Ki=chakra(sorry about the stupid chakra network thing, dumb idea)
    -
    Mike you said that the ki barrier, is essentially goku’s ki, moving around him to enable him correct?
    -
    while if we take this as fact, which is a good opinion.
    -
    the ki barrier is a large portion of goku’s entire of ki. Which is used to repel powerful energy beams and attacks
    -
    this leaves a lesser amount circulating within the body.
    -
    So the remaining ki that should be flowing in the brian is minimal, thus being able to be under goku’s control.
    -
    this can only apply if the ki barrier really does circulate the body with a large portion of Ki, which according to Mike it is. I personally think he is correct on this one, becasue how else can goku blow off planet busting attacks without blinking.
    -
    so this should be used to provide a way for Itachi to control the saiyan warrior.
    -

  95. Soulerous March 20, 2013 at 1:57 pm -      #3695

    @Max81- What we were calling the “ki shield” is just the ability to deflect physical blasts with conscious effort. It’s not an invisible force field formed around the body.

  96. Max81 March 20, 2013 at 2:01 pm -      #3696

    @soul
    when was that stated? by the clips shown and by the way people were talking it was a force shield that is used to counter attacks without thinking, and it was just a shield.
    -
    like when gohan fought cell
    and when Freiza shot Goku in the face.
    and when Goku got shot by bulma in the beginning of the series

  97. Motor314 March 20, 2013 at 2:19 pm -      #3697

    @max
    good try, that might work, however i don’t know.
    -
    @everyone
    I can seem to come up with an argument, this debate is definetly caught between a rock and a hard place. Soul is right, if we use Gohan’s anime explanation we can assume that there is little ki in Goku’s head, thus good enough for Itachi to control, but if we use the manga’s explanation we are back to Finesse vs Strength.
    -
    so i can’t really see an end to this.
    -
    if we can prove that Itachi can put goku in a genjutus Itachi can win the battle, if we can’t prove it, Goku takes this in a “ROFLPWNWTFCURBSTOMP” to quote primus.
    -
    i hope we can use the anime’s explanation, becuase i don’t really see this debate ending if we don’t.

  98. GuardianAngel1911 Warden of Demonreach prison for Eldritch Abominations March 20, 2013 at 2:32 pm -      #3698

    just saying but Manga is the higher canon when anything contradicts so….Manga explanation is what it would be.

  99. Dassadec March 20, 2013 at 2:34 pm -      #3699

    @ max
    That’s because there are 2 different things the Ki barrier technique ( which forms a bubble to repel attacks) and their passive Ki aura which is what increase their durability based on how powerful they are. The latter of which is the Ki inside their bodies

  100. Mike March 20, 2013 at 4:35 pm -      #3700

    ” Despite Mike’s confidence, he’s presented zero proof from the manga to back any of it up. We don’t know how much Ki Goku has in any part of his body”
    -i presented arguments based on all of the proposed points from everyone’s side that was backed up with any evidence at all. your side’s 1/1000, the 2% of ki in brain, the evenly spread out ki in body. so get your story straight. besides the evenly spread out one is the only one that can be backed by all the media.
    -
    -
    “We’re also overlooking the fact that genjutsu is finesse over power, but we first need to establish what’s in Goku’s cranial nerves with enough evidence. Right now there’s nothing concrete.”
    -armed with a squirt gun, itachi is going to attempt to finesse the ocean a little to the left…..let’s see what happens….
    -
    -
    “The knowledge from episode 192 tells us that ki is amassed in roughly the stomach region, meaning either that Goku has no ki in his cranial nerves for Itachi to control or that the amount is small enough for him to control.”
    -no it does not tell us it is in the center of your body, it says you have to find your center to use it. “Don’t worry, every living person has it inside them, you just have to find it”; and “listen to the center of your body, then you start to feel a pull; then you just bring it out”. that doesn’t show it is located in the center of the body, that shows you listen to the “center” of your body. as i pointed out earlier along with primus, that is a common oriental explanation of the types of ki/chakra/chi things we are talking about. and it means nothing about the physical center of the body.
    -
    -
    “The knowledge given by the manga tells us that ki is evenly distributed throughout the body; it does not say it in those terms, but that conclusion features the fewest assumptions.”
    -flowing would meant as even as the volume area would be able to hold, not perfectly evenly spread out. still works out in goku’s favor.
    -
    -
    “Goku has a lot of ki in his brain or he has little to none. That’s a big difference. The correct conclusion depends on which definition of canon we are using.”
    -well he sure has enough to take planet busting punches to the face and come out fine. does it all the time.
    -
    -
    “What do we know so far?
    Goku has a ki barrier, that genjutsu can get past.”
    -no, don’t just claim we “know” genjutsu can get past. that has been shown false already.
    -
    -
    “Mike you said that the ki barrier, is essentially goku’s ki, moving around him to enable him correct?
    -
    while if we take this as fact, which is a good opinion.
    -
    the ki barrier is a large portion of goku’s entire of ki. Which is used to repel powerful energy beams and attacks
    -
    this leaves a lesser amount circulating within the body.”
    -you really don’t understand what anyone has said about this ki “barrier” yet. in lamens terms, just think of each cell in goku’s body as 1 ki. all the cells make up the barrier, including the inside of his body.
    -
    -
    “So the remaining ki that should be flowing in the brian is minimal, thus being able to be under goku’s control.
    -
    this can only apply if the ki barrier really does circulate the body with a large portion of Ki, which according to Mike it is. I personally think he is correct on this one, becasue how else can goku blow off planet busting attacks without blinking.
    -
    so this should be used to provide a way for Itachi to control the saiyan warrior.”
    -this doesn’t make any sense whatsoever or follow anything that i have said.
    -
    -
    “@Max81- What we were calling the “ki shield” is just the ability to deflect physical blasts with conscious effort. It’s not an invisible force field formed around the body.”
    -no conscious effort needed. did we forget the surprise sniper round to the cheek when goku was a child?
    -
    -
    ” Soul is right, if we use Gohan’s anime explanation we can assume that there is little ki in Goku’s head, thus good enough for Itachi to control, but if we use the manga’s explanation we are back to Finesse vs Strength.”
    -or if you actually take all explanations into account you get…..a spiritual energy that flows through the body that you have to find your center to be able to control…….the only way that all makes sense together is if we take the first two literally(spiritual and flowing) and the last part(center) as it is used in 99% of oriental explanations of powers like these. there is absolutely no reason to think it is centered in the physical body if you take anything at all other than the word center into account and then only if you take it out of context. basically, it is already proven to flow through the body and nothing contradicts that.
    -
    -
    “if we can prove that Itachi can put goku in a genjutus Itachi can win the battle, if we can’t prove it, Goku takes this in a “ROFLPWNWTFCURBSTOMP” to quote primus.”
    -forgetting the many ways goku still kills itachi even if he gets into a genjutsu?
    -
    -
    “i hope we can use the anime’s explanation, becuase i don’t really see this debate ending if we don’t.”
    -yes of course you would want to use only part of the explanation of something that you can then take out of context to suit your own needs.

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