Goku Vs Itachi Uchiha

Goku (Dragonball Z) Vs Itachi Uchiha (Naruto)

Here is a match in which I’ll confess to not know much other than that Goku can go head to head with Superman, so that must mean something.

So, dear reader, who wins this fight?

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3,651 Comments on "Goku Vs Itachi Uchiha"

  1. The King of Games March 14, 2013 at 12:51 pm -      #3501

    Kakashi collasped because he couldn’t handle the pain delivered to him not because that what the genjutsu does. Goku can easily tank the damage done to Kakashi because that’s minor damage compared to what he’s taken. Unless it can some how be proven that itachi can dish any amount of damage equal to what can hurt End of Z Goku he’s not collasping.

  2. Mike March 14, 2013 at 1:24 pm -      #3502

    “-This is not so. If someone could shield against lightning, intangible lightning could still get through. Ki and chakra are compatible; this does not mean intangible chakra will be blocked by an effect that is only known to block tangible ki.”
    -but there is nothing special about this chakra, it is just chakra not doing physical damage. both are spiritual energies and both interact with each other. just because some is used in both series for physical attacks doesn’t negate what they are and that they are the same thing. unless it goes to another plane in the same reality it is subject to interact with other elemental compatabilities of the same pure form. it’s like arguing that air can be hardened to slice and also to be breathable, but if someone has a dense defense of air that blocks the blade it would not block the regular breathable air(ignoring the breathing in and all).
    -
    -
    “In other words, things will only physically interact if they can physically interact, which is something intangible things cannot do by definition. To argue otherwise is to argue against physics itself.”
    -nothing about it shows it is more intangible than any other spiritual chakra/ki in DBZ. in fact i cannot find any scans of the intangible chakra at all in this thread. first mention of it is here….
    ” Soulerous March 4, 2013 at 9:56 pm – #2741

    “will itachi slide past the ki? or will goku ki stop the uchiha cold?”
    -Since apparently Genjutsu makes use of a completely intangible type of chakra, a useful thing to know, then Itachi does indeed slide past the ki.”
    -and then talk of how since ki blocks intangible magic also, that it would block intangible chakra anyways.
    -
    -
    You even acknowledged it…
    ““So what were ignoring the Ki shield can block out passive energies feat I just posted?”
    -I didn’t see that before I posted, sorry. If that Energy Barrier stopped Buu from absorbing him, that means it stopped their ki from merging, ki that was not in the form of a physical blast. Good find.”
    -
    -
    So no proof that it is even intangible and proof that ki blocks it anyways if it was……..

  3. Soulerous March 14, 2013 at 3:00 pm -      #3503

    Kakashi collasped because he couldn’t handle the pain delivered to him not because that what the genjutsu does.
    -I’ve seen claims that Tsukuyomi can 1, make any scenario Itachi wants, 2, that it shows the target their worst fears, and 3, that it makes them relive their worst memories. Number 3 is obviously not the case, number 2 is unlikely but not impossible, and number 1 is extremely likely. Whichever one it be, it will still cause more pain than Goku has ever taken before, which means we have no guarantee that he won’t collapse just like Kakashi.
    ~
    Am I wrong on the amount of pain he has taken? If so, please provide evidence.
    ~
    but there is nothing special about this chakra, it is just chakra not doing physical damage. both are spiritual energies and both interact with each other.
    -You keep repeating yourself. I will repeat the fact that blocking something physical is not a feat for blocking something intangible, even if they are otherwise the same type of energy.
    ~
    it’s like arguing that air can be hardened to slice and also to be breathable, but if someone has a dense defense of air that blocks the blade it would not block the regular breathable air(ignoring the breathing in and all).
    -It is not remotely like that. In all cases, that air is physical. Again: Blocking something physical is not a feat for blocking something intangible, even if they are otherwise the same type of energy.
    ~
    nothing about it shows it is more intangible than any other spiritual chakra/ki in DBZ. in fact i cannot find any scans of the intangible chakra at all in this thread.
    -I’m not faulting you of course, but if you had brought this up sooner it could have saved a lot of time. Sadot06 said the spiritual energy used in Genjutsu is of a purely non-physical type, and I am inclined to believe him. He did not, however, post any proof that I am aware of either. So until someone does, Goku is immune and curbstomps Itachi. But if there is proof, then Goku will definitely be affected by it.
    ~
    You even acknowledged it…” -Remember, I was arguing in favor of this before I heard Genjutsu energy is immaterial. But no, in this instance, we were talking about the actual Energy Barrier, not Goku’s own life energy.

  4. The King of Games March 14, 2013 at 3:32 pm -      #3504

    @Soul
    Goku has spent 6 days training in 20-100x earth gravity. During about 3 days or so the machine bugged out and went from 50 straight to 100. He was forced to adjust to it.
    manga-access.com/manga/D/Dragon_Ball/chapter/192/10
    manga-access.com/manga/D/Dragon_Ball/chapter/192/11
    Piccolo messed Goku up good. Most people would have passed out by now.
    manga-access.com/manga/D/Dragon_Ball/chapter/193/10
    Can still fly and fight back.
    manga-access.com/manga/D/Dragon_Ball/chapter/236/7
    Every bone in his body is broken yet he’s still able to stay awake. Considering Vegeta just got done squeezing the crap out of him a while ago he’s pretty tough. I’ll fine more in a minute.

  5. The King of Games March 14, 2013 at 3:42 pm -      #3505

    @Soul
    manga-access.com/manga/D/Dragon_Ball/chapter/264/8
    manga-access.com/manga/D/Dragon_Ball/chapter/264/9
    Training at 50gs. It’s been a day since we lst saw Goku in space so this is about 4 days before he arrived on Namek.
    manga-access.com/manga/D/Dragon_Ball/chapter/270/4
    manga-access.com/manga/D/Dragon_Ball/chapter/270/5
    I have a few more scans so I guess I have to triple post which is a shame.

  6. The King of Games March 14, 2013 at 3:44 pm -      #3506

    manga-access.com/manga/D/Dragon_Ball/chapter/270/8
    manga-access.com/manga/D/Dragon_Ball/chapter/270/9
    Training complete and he can now handle up to 10x his own power without hurting himself.

  7. Soulerous March 15, 2013 at 1:40 am -      #3507

    Unless we know that having most of your bones broken is so incredibly painful that it’s worse than being stabbed many times a minute for 3 days straight, there is still no guarantee that Goku won’t collapse. I would personally place having most of your bones broken on par with being stabbed by a bunch of swords at once, but it’s not like we can quantify it.
    ~
    Training at many times Earth’s gravity is obviously not something that had Goku writhing in agony, and he didn’t have broken bones anywhere near as long as three days before getting medical help. They are not remotely comparable to Tsukuyomi.
    ~
    I think everyone else is bored of debating this match, though. Mission accomplished! But not really.

  8. Mike March 15, 2013 at 7:56 am -      #3508

    “I would personally place having most of your bones broken on par with being stabbed by a bunch of swords at once, but it’s not like we can quantify it.”
    -i have had both done to some degree. broken elbows and long nails in feet. in my opinion, the broken bones hurt more. for one, broken bones can also stab you on the inside too.
    -
    -
    Not that it’s an official ruling on the matter, but there is this site www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.257354-Poll-Which-hurts-more?page=2 which just takes votes from the members i’m guessing. 384 votes in total for 8 different kinds of damage and it seems what most think hurts the most(not labeling them 1-8 of worst to least). Blunt force (Impact, Bone) and Crushing. (Pressure) both have more than Puncture wounds. (Piercing, Stabbing) and Cuts. (Shallow, Deep). although i do have to say that anyone that didn’t vote for the two types of burns doesn’t know what they are talking about, i had second degree burns covering both my feat once and it was the only time i blacked out from pain in my life, about 2 seconds, found myself screaming and jumping in my living room when i was last in my kitchen; then proceeded to peel off my socks along with a nice layer of skin with them.

  9. sadot06 March 15, 2013 at 7:57 am -      #3509

    “I’m not faulting you of course, but if you had brought this up sooner it could have saved a lot of time. Sadot06 said the spiritual energy used in Genjutsu is of a purely non-physical type, and I am inclined to believe him. He did not, however, post any proof that I am aware of either. So until someone does, Goku is immune and curbstomps Itachi. But if there is proof, then Goku will definitely be affected by it.”

    We had a big discussion on this remember? I was providing links to show the explanation of the type of energy genjutsu uses. In the Nartuoverse chakra manipulation isn’t the same across the board. Yin vs Yang release. One is physical energy the other is imagination/spiritual energy, remember? You can’t feel it or see genjutsu, you can only observe the effect it has on the brain as shown in the example of the Kage summit when Danzo put Mifune in a genjutsu. Nobody sensed it and the Byakugan user could only see that Mifune’s brain wasn’t showing normal activity which alerted him to the fact that he was under genjutsu. There was no visible physical interaction between Danzo’s chakra and Mifune’s. There is no way we should be derailing this debate any more just because Mike and King of Games are wanking Goku’s feats. We already covered this in exhausting detail.

  10. Mike March 15, 2013 at 8:03 am -      #3510

    the thing is i do not see anything that proves your point in your posts sadot. not only that, naruto character’s flaw of not being able to feel/sense/see chakra is not something that goku is subject to. no one is wanking goku’s feats at all, in fact goku’s feats aren’t even what’s up for deliberation right now. itachi’s are.

  11. sadot06 March 15, 2013 at 8:12 am -      #3511

    Mike, once again, you clearly display your lack of knowledge when it comes to what you’re debating against. Congrats. Anyway, my post was directed to Soul.

  12. TheSorrow March 15, 2013 at 8:16 am -      #3512

    not only that, naruto character’s flaw of not being able to feel/sense/see chakra is not something that goku is subject to
    -
    Well that’s not entirely true, there are those who specialize in honing on Chakra (Sensor-types). And there have been cases where they don’t even appear to have that trait at all. (Them being the previous Hokages) Then you have the bloodlines with the eyes (Sharigan and Bayakugan) who can see the chakras being emitted from the body inheritantly. Itachi falls under the latter catergory.

  13. Mike March 15, 2013 at 8:21 am -      #3513

    “Mike, once again, you clearly display your lack of knowledge when it comes to what you’re debating against. Congrats. Anyway, my post was directed to Soul.”
    -my lack of knowledge if there is any in this case comes from you not giving it. kinda how a debate works.
    -doesn’t matter who it’s addressed to.
    -
    -
    @sorrow
    -still leaves goku being able to detect the chakra, which is one of the reasons they think it is intangible.

  14. TheSorrow March 15, 2013 at 8:24 am -      #3514

    -still leaves goku being able to detect the chakra
    -
    I know, I just wanted to bring the Chakra sensing abilities to your attention.

  15. Soulerous March 15, 2013 at 8:41 am -      #3515

    We had a big discussion on this remember? I was providing links to show the explanation of the type of energy genjutsu uses. In the Nartuoverse chakra manipulation isn’t the same across the board. Yin vs Yang release. One is physical energy the other is imagination/spiritual energy, remember?
    -Lawlz, yes, of course I remember. I don’t remember any links, though. As I said, I’m inclined to believe you because it all makes perfect sense to me. But if Mike wants proof that it’s intangible, no one has the right to say it doesn’t need to be proven.

  16. Soulerous March 15, 2013 at 8:43 am -      #3516

    That’s not to say it can’t be proven with logic alone, but I wouldn’t know that. I’m not the Naruto expert here.

  17. sadot06 March 15, 2013 at 9:22 am -      #3517

    @Soul

    manga.animea.net/naruto-chapter-510-page-11.html

  18. Soulerous March 15, 2013 at 9:26 am -      #3518

    Mental energy is obviously not physical.

  19. Dassadec March 15, 2013 at 10:13 am -      #3519

    Goku as a child tanked dozens of lightning bolts while riding his powerpole to Kamis lookout fairly easily since he still held on and these were hitting him every couple seconds too.
    Just wanted to throw that feat out there

  20. Soulerous March 15, 2013 at 10:52 am -      #3520

    He also tanked powerful lightning bolts while training with Mr. Popo. It’s a much better durability feat than it is for withstanding pain, though.

  21. Dr. Doctor March 15, 2013 at 12:00 pm -      #3521

    If I may add my two cents, durability can be “How much it takes to tear a character apart,” but it could also be “How much pain can one take before going down?”
    -
    In Kakashi’s case, he managed to take on the Tsukoyomi and stand for some time before going comatose. Do we know any other of his durability feats? What else can he take, so we can make an actual comparison?
    -
    In basic, I am trying to get a gauge on Kakashi’s limits, because so far he is the strongest we’ve seen Tsukoyomi take down (to my knowledge).
    -
    Argh, I wish I knew how to word this better.
    -
    Like, if Kakashi can tank lightning bolts no problem, but Tsukoyomi takes him down, then we’d have a better gauge on its ability to take Goku down.

  22. Dassadec March 15, 2013 at 12:10 pm -      #3522

    The m

  23. Dassadec March 15, 2013 at 12:12 pm -      #3523

    Stupid phone.
    Anyway Kakashi hasn’t shown anywhere near Goku durability I think the most he ever took was Tsukiyomi itself

  24. Mike March 15, 2013 at 12:12 pm -      #3524

    “manga.animea.net/naruto-chapter-510-page-11.html”
    -that doesn’t show the genjutsu is intangible, it says it’s effects. creating something with the imagination….illusions.
    -
    -
    “Mental energy is obviously not physical.”
    -yet both are chakra and both are spiritual just like ki. dbz ki is not split into two forms as far a i know, but it doesn’t mean that because naruto chakra is, that one of them bypasses dbz chakra. show some genjutsu bypassing defenses of some kind that is relevant, then we’ll talk, otherwise it’s still what it is described as; ki/chakra moving to the intended victim and messing with their chakra. hell, if it did not interact with goku’s chakra then it wouldn’t even work in the first place, HELL if it didn’t interact with naruto regular chakra, then it couldn’t be defeated by just raising their chakra level. the whole thing doesn’t make sense.

  25. Soulerous March 15, 2013 at 1:00 pm -      #3525

    If I may add my two cents, durability can be “How much it takes to tear a character apart,” but it could also be “How much pain can one take before going down?
    -I suppose the word could be used to refer to either one, but they are still blatantly different things. The ability to withstand physical force without being damaged has no bearing on someone’s pain tolerance. Since Goku hasn’t withstood pain similar to having his bones broken for 3 days straight condensed to a few moments ever before, we don’t know that he can.
    ~
    @Sadot06- Do I have that right? Or is there something you forgot to tell me?
    ~
    that doesn’t show the genjutsu is intangible, it says it’s effects. creating something with the imagination….illusions.
    -It has an effect, yes. That effect is Genjutsu, yes. Accomplished with mental energy, which is intangible. The spiritual energy of chakra; immaterial. Untouchable. In contrast with ki blasts, which are physical.
    ~
    yet both are chakra and both are spiritual just like ki. dbz ki is not split into two forms as far a i know
    -It is indeed split into two forms as far as we know, because ki blasts clearly have mass and substance. Normally life energy is intangible, but that wouldn’t make for very good attacks, would it? Imagine if you launched a fireball at someone and it passed right through them. And then they smacked you.
    ~
    but it doesn’t mean that because naruto chakra is, that one of them bypasses dbz chakra.
    -I have said this three times, and you still haven’t given a valid argument against it: A feat for blocking something physical is not a feat for blocking something intangible. The fact that ki and chakra are elementally compatible does not nullify the nature of intangibility.
    ~
    show some genjutsu bypassing defenses of some kind that is relevant
    -What, you mean bypassing something that would stop physical things? Like… their body? If it were physical it couldn’t enter their brain without traveling through their ears or some orifice.
    ~
    if it did not interact with goku’s chakra then it wouldn’t even work in the first place
    -Goku’s life energy is not a physical thing. That’s the ki blasts. Anyway, it works by controlling the target’s brain, not grabbing their ki.
    ~
    if it didn’t interact with naruto regular chakra, then it couldn’t be defeated by just raising their chakra level. the whole thing doesn’t make sense.
    -The chakra that flows in a Naruto character’s body is just as immaterial as any spirit energy. There is physical energy and there is spirit energy. Genjutsu uses spirit energy. So yes, it all makes perfect sense.
    ~
    @Sadot06- Again, please correct me if I have any Naruto facts wrong.

  26. Mike March 15, 2013 at 1:44 pm -      #3526

    “-It has an effect, yes. That effect is Genjutsu, yes. Accomplished with mental energy, which is intangible. The spiritual energy of chakra; immaterial. Untouchable. In contrast with ki blasts, which are physical.”
    -still nothing shown so far says this is so. mental energy is still chakra. just the ability to creat out of nothing as the scan said….as in illusions.
    -
    -
    “-I have said this three times, and you still haven’t given a valid argument against it: A feat for blocking something physical is not a feat for blocking something intangible. ”
    -and i have said this more than 3 times. you have not shown it is intangible. and you it is made up of the same thing ki is, thus interacting with it. besides, ki blocks dbz magic which is “intangible”, did you forget the discussion on this?
    -
    -
    “-What, you mean bypassing something that would stop physical things? Like… their body? If it were physical it couldn’t enter their brain without traveling through their ears or some orifice.”
    -you mean like ki blasts through meat?… either way both ki and chakra have shown “intagibility”, and are considered the same element to be able to interact besides that.
    -
    -
    “-Goku’s life energy is not a physical thing. That’s the ki blasts. Anyway, it works by controlling the target’s brain, not grabbing their ki.”
    -no, everything quoted/shown about it says it manipulates the ki/chakra flow in the brain, slightly different way to say it with completely different meanings. why do you think the whole subject of goku’s massive amount of ki being uncontrollable by itachi even came up? because itachi has to be able to manipulate it for it’s effects to work.
    -
    -
    “-The chakra that flows in a Naruto character’s body is just as immaterial as any spirit energy. There is physical energy and there is spirit energy. Genjutsu uses spirit energy. So yes, it all makes perfect sense.”
    -as any spiritual energy that is in the body, not physically interacting with the body? like dbz ki? lol. it doesn’t make sense, not one bit.

  27. Mike March 15, 2013 at 1:47 pm -      #3527

    i suppose i should also point out…
    -
    “What, you mean bypassing something that would stop physical things? Like… their body?”
    -how do you think the energy gets outside of their body(dbz)?

  28. Soulerous March 15, 2013 at 2:28 pm -      #3528

    still nothing shown so far says this is so. mental energy is still chakra. just the ability to creat out of nothing as the scan said….as in illusions.
    -Mental energy is still chakra, yes. But you are claiming it is physical. It is Yin, which means it is not. The scan tells us that there are two types of chakra: Yang, which is physical, and Yin, which is not. Mental/spiritual energy is intangible by default.
    ~
    and i have said this more than 3 times. you have not shown it is intangible.” -It is spiritual energy. Thus it is intangible by default.
    ~
    and you it is made up of the same thing ki is, thus interacting with it.” -That’s breaking the laws of physics. You can’t do that. It’s physical vs non-physical even with elemental compatibility.
    ~
    besides, ki blocks dbz magic which is “intangible”, did you forget the discussion on this?” -The only proof I ever saw for blocking magic was for the Ki Barrier technique.
    ~
    you mean like ki blasts through meat?” -It did not go through the meat, it enveloped it and continued onward. It also never hit Goku.
    ~
    either way both ki and chakra have shown “intagibility”, and are considered the same element to be able to interact besides that.
    -The difference is Goku has never deflected intangible ki with his body.
    ~
    no, everything quoted/shown about it says it manipulates the ki/chakra flow in the brain
    -This is your point. Run with it. The rest has been exhaustively explained.
    ~
    as any spiritual energy that is in the body, not physically interacting with the body? like dbz ki?
    -Yes, like Dragon Ball ki inside the body.
    ~
    how do you think the energy gets outside of their body(dbz)?” -They use their energy to create blasts. I am not saying it is physical when it’s inside their body; just the blasts are physical because they are proven to be. Do you understand this?

  29. Mike March 15, 2013 at 2:59 pm -      #3529

    “-Mental energy is still chakra, yes. But you are claiming it is physical.”
    -never said any such thing. i claimed that chakra is the same as what ki and chakra have shown to be, physical and spiritual in different ways and attacks. don’t put words in my mouth.
    -
    -
    “The scan tells us that there are two types of chakra: Yang, which is physical, and Yin, which is not. Mental/spiritual energy is intangible by default.”
    -intangible by default? no, even for regular chakra to escape their bodies and do anything it all has to be “intangible” by your definition, and then so is dbz ki.
    -
    -
    “It is spiritual energy. Thus it is intangible by default.”
    -you seem to think that “default” means whatever you want it to mean. their spiritual energy also makes physical interactions happen, and dbz ki is spiritual energy…..so by default it’s intangible right?…..you are making absolutely no sense and contradicting everything you say. just stop soulerous. stop and look at what you are saying and what is known of both elements.
    -
    -
    “That’s breaking the laws of physics. You can’t do that. It’s physical vs non-physical even with elemental compatibility.”
    -no it’s not. you only see it this way because of your preconceived notion that one is intangible. prove it is first THEN claim something like this.
    -
    -
    “-The only proof I ever saw for blocking magic was for the Ki Barrier technique.”
    -and……you think it’s not made up of ki?
    -
    -
    “It did not go through the meat, it enveloped it and continued onward. It also never hit Goku.”
    -hitting goku has nothing to do with it, the factor of interacting or not with something physical was already shown with the meat, again you make no sense.
    -as i pointed out before, if it was physical it would have splashed or penetrated it, instead it went through it. claiming it enveloped it and then continued onward is not supported in any way whatsoever by the scene.
    -
    -
    “The difference is Goku has never deflected intangible ki with his body.”
    -doesn’t need to, ki barriers showing they block intangible things already shows that ki blocks them, along with all the other ways i have shown you that if i take your definition of intangible, dbz ki fits it as well and thus would be able to interact and thus being more powerful/concentrated would block it.
    -
    -
    “-This is your point. Run with it. The rest has been exhaustively explained.”
    -actually it’s not my point. it’s quotes that itachi supporters have brought up. it uses itachi’s chakra to manipulate the intended victim’s chakra in their brain. nothing to do with anything i brought up at all. you guys countered yourselves.
    -
    -
    “-Yes, like Dragon Ball ki inside the body.”
    -you literally just admitted that the ki in the body is of the intangible sort. your whole point of genjutsu working because it’s intangible is rendered moot by this confession i hope you know.
    -
    -
    “They use their energy to create blasts. I am not saying it is physical when it’s inside their body; just the blasts are physical because they are proven to be. Do you understand this?”
    -yeah….and…? the ki doesnt change it’s elemental makeup to alter itself to interact physically, it just concentrates itself and has those effects; that and apparently they can have different effects based on what they want when they concentrate their ki(explode on contact, penetrate, “intangible”, deflect/shield…etc…).
    -
    -
    you literally haven’t proven anything, had past itachi supporters quotes counter you, and have even countered yourself by admitting elemental compatability on an intangible level. i really don’t know what to tell you. do you see what you have done?

  30. sadot06 March 15, 2013 at 3:20 pm -      #3530

    Soul, Mike doesn’t debate as much as he extends the debate by saying the same thing regardless of the evidence until the other side gives up.

  31. Mike March 15, 2013 at 3:22 pm -      #3531

    “Soul, Mike doesn’t debate as much as he extends the debate by saying the same thing regardless of the evidence until the other side gives up.”
    -or you could come back to reality and see that i just literally countered your entire point with your own points.

  32. Soulerous March 15, 2013 at 3:52 pm -      #3532

    Oh joy. You have successfully misinterpreted everything I have ever said on this matter. You don’t even know what I’m arguing. Let’s try this one more time.
    ~
    Spiritual energy is intangible. We know this, right? That is default, right? We know that spiritual energy is not physical? I hope we can agree on this.
    ~
    The ki in Goku’s body is not physical either. The same is true for the chakra in Itachi’s body. They are both spiritual energy.
    ~
    But when ki blasts are created, they are physical. They have mass and substance. They make contact with other physical things. They can propel people by causing the “equal and opposite reaction” idealized in Newton’s third law.
    ~
    Remember, these are just the ki blasts. Ki is normally intangible.
    ~
    Now we have Goku. Energy attacks have been fired at him. They have been known to ricochet off his body when normally they explode. Physical ki-based attacks are stopped by him.
    ~
    Now then, with all of that established, where is the proof that intangible attacks will also bounce off of him? That’s all I ever asked for. A clip, a scan, something showing that normal, intangible life energy cannot penetrate him.
    ~
    I could literally go through every point of mine you just “countered” and say: That’s not what I meant, that is not what I said, you misunderstand me, etc, etc. That would be a waste of time. I will give you one example, though. You said Genjutsu controls the chakra in the brain. I said this is your point, run with it. You replied: “actually it’s not my point. it’s quotes that itachi supporters have brought up.
    ~
    But what I meant was that you had a point and that you should argue with it. Not that you mentioned it first, or whatever you thought I meant. How can I argue with you if you don’t even argue against my argument to begin with?
    ~
    Regardless of that whole mess though, it is true that Itachi doesn’t have a feat of controlling as much ki as Goku has. So as I said, run with that.

  33. Soulerous March 15, 2013 at 3:59 pm -      #3533

    @Sadot06- “Soul, Mike doesn’t debate as much as he extends the debate by saying the same thing regardless of the evidence until the other side gives up.
    -I’d be tempted to call him a troll, but that is obviously not the case. He’s debating genuinely. He apparently just has a serious problem with correctly interpreting the meanings of others’ words.
    ~
    Anyway, the wiki says “genjutsu techniques manipulate the flow of chakra in the victim’s brain.” How do you explain this? I apologize again if you already posted scans for it, but some proof is needed that Genjutsu uses chakra to control the brain directly and not to do what the wiki says. It would go a long way.

  34. Mike March 15, 2013 at 4:27 pm -      #3534

    “Oh joy. You have successfully misinterpreted everything I have ever said on this matter. You don’t even know what I’m arguing. Let’s try this one more time.”
    -go right on ahead, if i’m wrong i’ll admit it.
    -
    -
    “Spiritual energy is intangible. We know this, right? That is default, right? We know that spiritual energy is not physical? I hope we can agree on this.”
    -no, only when proven to be. there is no default on anything fictional. but once again going by your logic, ki is intangible also.
    -
    -
    “But when ki blasts are created, they are physical. They have mass and substance.”
    -not always, just like some chakra moves. although i don’t remember any ki having any mass.
    -
    -
    ” They make contact with other physical things. ”
    -not always, just like the ki blast to the meat.
    -
    -
    ” They can propel people by causing the “equal and opposite reaction” idealized in Newton’s third law.”
    -yes, they are able to, just like examples of naruto chakra.
    -
    -
    “Remember, these are just the ki blasts. Ki is normally intangible.”
    -you are making the assumption that the ki changes it’s fundimental makeup instead of changing how it affects things around it. both naruto chakra and dbz ki show examples of this.
    -
    -
    “Now we have Goku. Energy attacks have been fired at him. They have been known to ricochet off his body when normally they explode. Physical ki-based attacks are stopped by him.”
    -once again running with your speculation to try and make a point off of unproven things.
    -
    -
    “Now then, with all of that established, where is the proof that intangible attacks will also bounce off of him?”
    -you said it yourself without me having to elaborate on the other reasons; the ki in his body is also “intangible”, and ki is known to block ki in the dbz universe.
    -
    -
    “That’s all I ever asked for. A clip, a scan, something showing that normal, intangible life energy cannot penetrate him.”
    -many have been shown, but you do not accept that ki is elementally compatable in a match where it’s deamed to be elementally compatable. again you run off of your own speculation being fact and claiming that other feats are not feats because of it.
    -
    -
    “I could literally go through every point of mine you just “countered” and say: That’s not what I meant, that is not what I said, you misunderstand me, etc, etc.”
    -apparenlty not; you just assume you are right to begin with and extrapolate from there.
    -
    -
    “But what I meant was that you had a point and that you should argue with it. Not that you mentioned it first, or whatever you thought I meant. How can I argue with you if you don’t even argue against my argument to begin with?”
    -you apparenlty didn’t understand the implications of what was said then…..the proof is already there, running with it is not neccesary.
    -
    -
    “Regardless of that whole mess though, it is true that Itachi doesn’t have a feat of controlling as much ki as Goku has. So as I said, run with that.”
    -again, it already has been “ran”. like i said before, almost nothing at all has been addressed properly much less countered in terms of what defenses goku has against genjutsu.
    -
    -
    “Anyway, the wiki says “genjutsu techniques manipulate the flow of chakra in the victim’s brain.” How do you explain this? I apologize again if you already posted scans for it, but some proof is needed that Genjutsu uses chakra to control the brain directly and not to do what the wiki says. It would go a long way.”
    -it is in the first 3 wikis i just looked up, and even accepted on this thread…. www.animevice.com/forums/general-discussion/1/can-genjutsu-work-on-people-who-dont-have-chakra/332434/ as just a non contested “this is how it works” thing. along with….
    “Shonen Jump: How did you develop the chakra power system in Naruto? Are you interested in East Indian mysticism?
    Masashi Kishimoto: I actually have no interest in East Indian mysticism. I needed a hook to tie in those points in the story when characters would use powers that were beyond normal human capabilities. The term is chakra, which is used as an explanation for readers to better understand the powers. Its similar to “the Force” in Star Wars, or chi (aka. – Ki) in “Dragon Ball”, or magic points in RPGs.”
    -
    -
    More later, gotta go. please get your arguments straightened out a little.

  35. sadot06 March 15, 2013 at 7:35 pm -      #3535

    “Anyway, the wiki says “genjutsu techniques manipulate the flow of chakra in the victim’s brain.” How do you explain this? I apologize again if you already posted scans for it, but some proof is needed that Genjutsu uses chakra to control the brain directly and not to do what the wiki says. It would go a long way.”
    ___________________________________
    “Genjutsu is created when a ninja extends their chakra flow through the cerebral nervous system of their opponent to control their mind, thereby affecting their five senses. Those with special abilities like the Uchiha clan’s Sharingan — which can cast generic genjutsu — or with high intelligence have an easier time executing and countering genjutsu, as attention to detail is key. Those under the influence of genjutsu will either appear to be unconscious or continue to move around under the pretence of the genjutsu. The latter is very effective in battle as a genjutsu user can make themselves appear to be somewhere else and attack the victim from behind or change the environment to make the victim see a flat plain where there is a steep cliff. Because genjutsu affects activity throughout the prosencephalon structure of the brain, humans, dogs and other species of mammal are therefore all affected by genjutsu”

    -That’s more from that wiki article, is that what you were looking for, or did you want an explanation of genjutsu from the manga?

    manga.animea.net/naruto-chapter-259-page-9.html

  36. The King of Games March 15, 2013 at 7:43 pm -      #3536

    Doesn’t that mean Goku isn’t effected because he isn’t a mammal but an alien?

  37. sadot06 March 15, 2013 at 7:48 pm -      #3537

    Saiyan physiology is nearly identical to human physiology in Dragon Ball.

  38. The King of Games March 15, 2013 at 8:01 pm -      #3538

    That doesn’t mean he’s a mammal though. He’s still an alien and there isn’t any proof his brain is structured the same way as a humans.

  39. sadot06 March 15, 2013 at 8:10 pm -      #3539

    Saying he’s an alien doesn’t mean anything. Based on everything we’ve seen, Saiyans are mammals. You’d need actual evidence to prove otherwise.

  40. The King of Games March 15, 2013 at 8:14 pm -      #3540

    Based on what they are mamamals? You kn ow how many alins can cross breed with humans and not be mammals.

  41. sadot06 March 15, 2013 at 8:24 pm -      #3541

    Saiyins didn’t cross breed with humans. They can turn into Apes for god’s sake. Unless you can provide evidence that Goku’s brain is structured like an insect, he isn’t immune to genjutsu by nature of his physiology. If you have no evidence, this discussion is over.

  42. PrimusxPilus March 15, 2013 at 8:27 pm -      #3542

    Those that state a positive claim MUST SUPPORT that claim. Just Saiyan

  43. The King of Games March 15, 2013 at 8:30 pm -      #3543

    The hell does turing into apes have to do with anything? I’m pointing out the fact that there is no proof his internal structure is like that of a human or mamamals in general. Considering Piccolo putting hole in his chest didn’t put him down I wouldn’t be surprised if his internal structure was different from a human’s. Anyway it’s not like he can be effected anyway seeing hoe Itachi has never controlled energy on Goku’s level and the genjutsu needs to effect the chakra in the victom’s body to work.

  44. Amm0vamp1r3 March 15, 2013 at 8:39 pm -      #3544

    So has to provide evidence here, TKoG or Sadot? Because I don’t know if his physiology was ever put into detail,if it was it was probably one short moment

  45. sadot06 March 15, 2013 at 8:42 pm -      #3545

    Piccolo putting a hole through his chest killed him. That’s why he was at King Kai’s. You know, the after life? And anyway, how would a durability feat prove you have a unique internal structure? Any who, no evidence for any of your claims. Bye now.

  46. The King of Games March 15, 2013 at 8:46 pm -      #3546

    manga-access.com/manga/D/Dragon_Ball/chapter/192
    A hole where his heart should be. He lived, he was in pain but he lived. I didn;t make any claims and pointed out the fact that he isn’t human and that because of that there isn;t a proof that they have the same internal structure. Also that still has nothing to do witht he fact that Itachi can’t put him under genjutsu because he can’t control Goku’s ki because it’s too high. Itachi would have to be able to control the ki in Goku’s brain and there isn;t any proof that says Itachi can control that level of ki.

  47. The King of Games March 15, 2013 at 8:49 pm -      #3547

    Actaully cross that manga scan I think those fucker flipped it.

  48. sadot06 March 15, 2013 at 8:49 pm -      #3548

    “manga-access.com/manga/D/Dragon_Ball/chapter/192
    A hole where his heart should be. He lived, he was in pain but he lived. I didn;t make any claims and pointed out the fact that he isn’t human and that because of that there isn;t a proof that they have the same internal structure. ”

    He missed his heart: manga-access.com/manga/D/Dragon_Ball/chapter/192/9

    Go away

  49. The King of Games March 15, 2013 at 8:51 pm -      #3549

    Like I said I think those fuckers flipped the pages anyway so there reversed. Not that it matters with the whole not be able to control Goku’ ki thing.

  50. sadot06 March 15, 2013 at 8:53 pm -      #3550

    “The ki in Goku’s body is not physical either. The same is true for the chakra in Itachi’s body. They are both spiritual energy.”

    __________________________–
    Soul, I found this on the DBZ wiki:
    Ki is also known as “latent energy” or “fighting power.” The term is the Japanese romanization of the Chinese term “Chi” (氣), which directly translates as “life force.” This force is a TANGIBLE energy inside every living person, with its major focus being in the center of the body. By drawing it out, an individual is able to manipulate it and use it for performances outside the body. Ki can be used for many different techniques. It is necessary to increase one’s ki to become strong, because there are physical limits to the strength of the body itself, in order to overcome that barrier.[1] Usually, the more concentrated the masses are, the more time the user requires to draw it out by powering up. When fighters gather ki, they are able to gain enhanced strength, speed, endurance, and can increase the power of their attacks to inflict greater damage to opponents. Normally, the more the ki is increased, the harder it is to control, so ki control is also important.[1]

  51. Motor314 March 15, 2013 at 10:47 pm -      #3551

    well i am certainly glad things have gotten under control :)
    -
    so the current debate is basically is goku’s invisible ki barrier made of intangible energy? and is itachi’s genjutsu intangible energy?
    -
    did i read that right?

  52. sadot06 March 15, 2013 at 11:00 pm -      #3552

    Not really. We know for a fact that genjutsu utilizes intangible energy, and my last post shows the ki inside Goku’s body is tangible. Mike is arguing that because of the compatibility of chakra and ki, intangible and tangible are the same thing. It’s complete nonsense and isn’t the real state of the debate. The latest question is about how genjutsu effects the brain.

  53. Motor314 March 15, 2013 at 11:04 pm -      #3553

    @sadot
    didn’t jiryia say narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/259/9
    genjutsu controls the chakra flowing through the cranial nerves? thus manipulating the 5 senses so the caster manipulates what the victim, tastes, feels, touches, etc.
    -
    or is this some other question on what genjutsu does?

  54. Amm0vamp1r3 March 15, 2013 at 11:04 pm -      #3554

    I don’t really think it is tangible,if it was tangible then why would you have to focus it to a point to get it to effect things?
    -

  55. Motor314 March 15, 2013 at 11:14 pm -      #3555

    @ammo
    If genjutsu was tangible it wouldn’t be able to get past naruto’s charka cloak, which is a shield around naruto’s body keeping everything dangerous away from it.
    -
    remember how naruto was terriyied of tsukonim in www.youtube.com/watch? v=H3C1C3dCd6s around 12:20
    -
    if it was tangible i doubt it could get past. furthermore, tangible energy can be blocked numerous ways, genjutsu goes through trees, rocks plants and well anything ot reach its targer.
    -
    that is why it is yin energy, the spiritual source going through objects to reach its true target

  56. Amm0vamp1r3 March 15, 2013 at 11:19 pm -      #3556

    I don’t know what you are talking about,Im talking about Sadots post not genjutsu.

  57. sadot06 March 15, 2013 at 11:30 pm -      #3557

    The energy isn’t doing anything sitting there. If you want to do something specific, you have to manipulate the energy to do that thing.

  58. Amm0vamp1r3 March 15, 2013 at 11:32 pm -      #3558

    Honestly I think my lack of knowledge around energy makes this convo pointless so im not about to waste time

  59. Soulerous March 16, 2013 at 6:11 am -      #3559

    @Mike- I would say your argument is completely ridiculous, but that’s assuming I actually do understand it, which I am skeptical of at this point. So correct me if I am wrong.
    ~
    You seem to be saying that Goku’s inner life energy would repel all other ki/chakra, both physical and non-physical, despite the fact that we don’t actually have a feat for it repelling said non-physical ki.
    ~
    Although, to be fair, you also seem to be claiming that since the Ki Barrier technique is obviously made up of ki, that Goku’s inner ki can block all the things it can, specifically the non-physical type of ki/chakra energy.
    ~
    If this is your argument, it is horrendously flawed to the point delirium. Why would anyone need that technique if it does exactly the same thing as the energy normally present within their body? Techniques obviously accomplish different things than what ki is capable of while inside their body. The feats a Ki Barrer have cannot be used for inner energy.
    ~
    You cannot claim that Goku’s latent power blocks all the same things as a Ki Barrier. You cannot claim it blocks non-physical ki when it hasn’t shown that property before. Look, magic can definitely get past the ki in Dragon Ball character’s bodies.
    ~
    @Everyone else- Goku is not an insect and possesses a brain capable of all the things a human brain is. Genjutsu would be able to affect his senses just fine.
    ~
    However, the scan (thank you, sadot06) tells us specifically: “Genjutsu is something that works on your opponent’s five senses. To control the chakra flowing through and linking their cranial nerves.
    ~
    That makes it clear to me that Genjutsu must affect the target’s chakra to work.

  60. Mike March 16, 2013 at 8:18 am -      #3560

    “Soul, I found this on the DBZ wiki:”
    -that’s a wiki, not proof. we also have a wiki saying that akira toriyama said ki is made of 3 parts, courage, mind and energy. we also have a db video from a while ago posted by your side trying to claim that what you just claimed with that wiki quote was in it. it wasn’t, in fact the only mention of ki in the episode was about how it was spiritual energy. quit using nonviable proof.
    -
    -
    @The King of Games
    -breeding with humans and getting normal offspring shows that saiyans are similar enough to humans. if their dna didn’t match up extremely closely, then they would not look like they do and or have chronic physical/mental problems which would eventually and maybe almost immediately kill them(in the womb even). but like you said, not that it matters really anyways.
    -
    -
    “Not really. We know for a fact that genjutsu utilizes intangible energy, and my last post shows the ki inside Goku’s body is tangible. ”
    -not in any way does your post show this nor does it even use a reliable source.
    -
    -
    “Mike is arguing that because of the compatibility of chakra and ki, intangible and tangible are the same thing.”
    -no i am not, never said that.
    -
    -
    “If genjutsu was tangible it wouldn’t be able to get past naruto’s charka cloak, which is a shield around naruto’s body keeping everything dangerous away from it.”
    -you’d have to show it blocks chakra.
    -
    -
    “remember how naruto was terriyied of tsukonim in www.youtube.com/watch? v=H3C1C3dCd6s around 12:20″
    -doesn’t bring up any video
    -
    -
    “if it was tangible i doubt it could get past. furthermore, tangible energy can be blocked numerous ways, genjutsu goes through trees, rocks plants and well anything ot reach its targer.”
    -or chunks of meat? lol
    -
    -
    “You seem to be saying that Goku’s inner life energy would repel all other ki/chakra, both physical and non-physical, despite the fact that we don’t actually have a feat for it repelling said non-physical ki.”
    -yes, but there is no feat needed. elemental compatabilities with the same defining property will interact. thus force vs force between itachi’s chakra and goku’s ki. i also will point out that the energy blasts are just concentrated ki from his body(which is intangible and spiritual) and made to do a specific purpose. mostly block other ki when used in defense.
    -
    -
    “Although, to be fair, you also seem to be claiming that since the Ki Barrier technique is obviously made up of ki, that Goku’s inner ki can block all the things it can, specifically the non-physical type of ki/chakra energy.”
    -they do take ki energy blasts to the body without ki barriers without harm. so it does block what you consider to be the physical part, but it is inherently, along with the energy blasts, intangible energy just repurposed or not to fit the need.
    -
    -
    “If this is your argument, it is horrendously flawed to the point delirium. Why would anyone need that technique if it does exactly the same thing as the energy normally present within their body?”
    -why use a riot shield if you are wearing bullet proof armor? same reason any other shield was ever invented. to have an extra layer of protection that you can concentrate to take more force in a specific area.
    -
    -
    “You cannot claim that Goku’s latent power blocks all the same things as a Ki Barrier.”
    -so far it has shown to. why would ki not block ki if it has shown to block ki just like the other ki?
    -
    -
    “You cannot claim it blocks non-physical ki when it hasn’t shown that property before.”
    -i can actually, because elemental compatabilities interact, that’s one of the main purposes of the rule(and logic). even with your own point of view of genjutsu being intangible by default because it’s spiritual, ki is said to be exactly the same thing in canon thus it is also intangible in your view. with this knowledge you should know that they will interact. especially when to work the chakra HAS to interact. if they don’t, the chakra doesn’t manipulate goku’s ki in his brain, if they do, we have two forces interacting and the aggressive force has to move/alter/manipulate the latent force. for which as shown before cannot be proven.

  61. Soulerous March 16, 2013 at 10:38 am -      #3561

    Oh dear Mike, you are ignoring the difference between interaction and shielding. You are repeatedly claiming that that Goku’s inner ki will repel, stop, or otherwise block other non-physical ki. Is that a property it possesses? No, it isn’t. It can block physical blasts either automatically or with concentration, I don’t know which. But it does not automatically block other energy. See for yourself. Goku puts some of his energy right into Frieza.
    ~
    There is a difference between being able to interact and outright repelling. See what I’m saying? If there were a technique for it, I’m sure it could block non-physical ki. But again, that would need a feat. Anyway, it may well be a moot point now, so I hope we can let this go either way.

  62. Mike March 16, 2013 at 11:16 am -      #3562

    “Oh dear Mike, you are ignoring the difference between interaction and shielding. You are repeatedly claiming that that Goku’s inner ki will repel, stop, or otherwise block other non-physical ki. Is that a property it possesses? No, it isn’t. It can block physical blasts either automatically or with concentration, I don’t know which. But it does not automatically block other energy. See for yourself. Goku puts some of his energy right into Frieza.”
    -wish you could have seen me facepalm your post.
    -first off, exact same elements interact with each other, and when one is far more than the other it cannot be moved by the other, thus effectively a shield stopping it.
    -second frieza was pretty much out of energy, and goku’s was far more….hint, see above.
    -
    -
    “There is a difference between being able to interact and outright repelling.”
    -not when one is so much more than the other that it cannot do anything to it because both are a kind of force and thus must have an equal or greater force to move it.
    -
    -
    You can let it go all you want, but you are completely wrong on this. both intangible ki/chakra, both will interact, one is so much more than the other, that it cannot be manipulated at all. = shield.

  63. sadot06 March 16, 2013 at 11:27 am -      #3563

    Silly Mike. Sourced Wikia’s do count

  64. Mike March 16, 2013 at 11:35 am -      #3564

    “Silly Mike. Sourced Wikia’s do count”
    -sourced, yet said in their own words. i can “source” you a dbz episode and tell you anything i want about how i percieved it. silly sadot06, doesn’t know what real proof is. i on the other hand pointed out what one of the “sourced” wiki’s said about what Akira Toriyama said and also cited a DB episode where they stated it as spiritual energy. learn from your mistakes please, don’t even need to acknowledge this if you don’t want, but please learn from it.

  65. Mike March 16, 2013 at 11:45 am -      #3565

    lol, i just looked up what that wiki cited and it’s a non official second hand party book compilation of the other non official db books. they cover everything from db-dbz-dbgt, to all of the movies to even the video games and gets some of it’s information from v-jump magazine which is also not official and even has power levels for vegeto and such…..good luck using wikis without checking the source cited.

  66. Soulerous March 16, 2013 at 1:01 pm -      #3566

    exact same elements interact with each other, and when one is far more than the other it cannot be moved by the other
    -Nope. That’s a physical property. It is called displacement. Intangible things don’t displace each other, they pass through each other. They are free from the rules of the physical world by definition. Thus, chakra need not “move” ki.
    ~
    You seem to not understand this, which brings me back to my original point: A feat for blocking something physical is not a feat for blocking something non-physical.
    ~
    So if you want to apply a physical property to something non-physical, you do need to provide proof that it actually works that way.
    ~
    But really, I digress. I’m not wrong on this at all, but I am tired of arguing about it. Goku should win at this point anyway. I have to break up with you, Mike. This is farewell.

  67. ka-tet19 March 16, 2013 at 1:15 pm -      #3567

    holy shit this thread is in the popular posts. what the hell happened?

  68. Mike March 16, 2013 at 2:51 pm -      #3568

    “-Nope. That’s a physical property. It is called displacement. Intangible things don’t displace each other, they pass through each other. They are free from the rules of the physical world by definition. Thus, chakra need not “move” ki.”
    -you just argued that genjutsu doesn’t work and you don’t even know it. if intangible things don’t interact with other intangible things of the same element, then itachi(and every other naruto character) cannot use his chakra to manipulate another’s chakra in their brain to cause illusions.
    -
    -
    “You seem to not understand this, which brings me back to my original point: A feat for blocking something physical is not a feat for blocking something non-physical.”
    -no it’s you who very very obviously doesn’t understand.
    -and you apparently also understand that i am not using a feat of blocking something physical to make my point and i never have.
    -
    -
    “But really, I digress. I’m not wrong on this at all, but I am tired of arguing about it. Goku should win at this point anyway. I have to break up with you, Mike. This is farewell.”
    -go ahead and leave, but be sure to learn from your major mistakes of countering yourself multiple times and claiming it’s me that doesn’t understand. I almost wonder if you noticed this and just stuck to your guns and are trying to walk away without admitting anything, but whatever.

  69. sadot06 March 16, 2013 at 2:59 pm -      #3569

    It’s all Canon remember Mike? Copyrights.

    But yeah Itachi still wins. But it doesn’t matter as this thread will remain in BankGambling purgatory.

  70. Amm0vamp1r3 March 16, 2013 at 3:02 pm -      #3570

    Honestly can we let this die either way? Naruto isn’t over and Itachi may get better feats who knows,And the DBZ movie isn’t out and we have made some leaps forward but nothing really “Great”

  71. Mike March 16, 2013 at 3:06 pm -      #3571

    “It’s all Canon remember Mike? Copyrights. ”
    -except the movies and the games aren’t which it uses, and the books are written not as storyline, just as the opinions of people that watched them and of opinions of people from another magazine that had opinions on them.
    -learn logic and what copyrights of what is considered part of the franchise means. you’re embarrassing your self.
    -
    -
    “But yeah Itachi still wins.”
    -oh are we just spouting off whatever we want now without having to prove anything? i’d say goku wins too, but i guess i can’t in this manner since i actually have proven he would win.
    -
    -
    “But it doesn’t matter as this thread will remain in BankGambling purgatory.”
    -doubt it.
    -
    -
    “Honestly can we let this die either way? Naruto isn’t over and Itachi may get better feats who knows,And the DBZ movie isn’t out and we have made some leaps forward but nothing really “Great”"
    -the only thing holding this thread back is the naruto fans arguing about the fundimentals of how naruto powers and dbz powers work and how they would interact. no new information is needed to figure that out and is in fact already precisely shown. itachi supporters just apparently don’t know how to comprehend it when it’s right in their faces and their own posts counter themselves. when you’re dead you don’t know it and everyone around you suffers……same thing when you are stupid.

  72. Motor314 March 16, 2013 at 4:23 pm -      #3572

    @ka-tet
    good to have you back :D
    -
    well we had to go over the following.

    -
    CIS rules
    Ki/chakra combatable of not
    does itachi eyes change color
    goku speedblitzing
    Can Itachi catch goku in genjutsu
    Can itachi hurt goku
    can amertersu hurt goku
    can genjutsu hold goku
    can goku break genjutsu
    does goku has a invisible ki barrier
    goku is invincible(no joke stupid segement)
    tsyukonimi/genjutsu what does it do?(asked 1,000 times)
    trolling on a large scale
    Itachi speed
    goku speed
    what type of energy is genjutsu
    more trolling
    goku being a merciless killer (no joking the kind lovable goku we know has been defined as a murderer
    Itachi not being a killer (the guy murders his entire clan and kills people and yet people think he won’t kill)
    and basically all this repeated about 3 times by now. so you basically haven’t missed much.

  73. Soulerous March 16, 2013 at 7:10 pm -      #3573

    No Mike, I did not contradict myself at all. Genjutsu doesn’t work by pushing against other chakra. It works by controlling it. It’s not my fault you don’t understand what immaterial means.
    ~
    @Sadot06- Bottom of post #3559. Goku should win with that fact. Right?

  74. The King of Games March 16, 2013 at 7:14 pm -      #3574

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7wT1meFv2I
    Apparently Super Saiyan God is just a red eyed and red hair Goku. Kind of lame when you think about the other transformations. Anyway I don’t see how Itachi can win when all Goku has to do is hit him once. I mean really this would play out like a tournament fight for Goku. That pretty much means he’s going to hit him first.

  75. Motor314 March 16, 2013 at 7:26 pm -      #3575

    @soul
    “@Everyone else- Goku is not an insect and possesses a brain capable of all the things a human brain is. Genjutsu would be able to affect his senses just fine.
    ~
    However, the scan (thank you, sadot06) tells us specifically: “Genjutsu is something that works on your opponent’s five senses. To control the chakra flowing through and linking their cranial nerves.”
    ~
    That makes it clear to me that Genjutsu must affect the target’s chakra to work.”
    “Bottom of post #3559. Goku should win with that fact. Right?”

    umm do you mean Itachi wins? because your point seems to be arguing for itachi, not goku. however since i wasn’t here, and i apologize for that. can you tell me the post number or just repeat the argument, so i can get a fresh idea of your point.
    -
    again apologies for being gone?

  76. The King of Games March 16, 2013 at 7:29 pm -      #3576

    Itachi can’t control the ki in Goku’s brain because he’s never controled that much power before. Not only that Goku can easily avoid anything Itachi tries to pull and strike him down. Goku would basically treat as a tournament match and strike first.

  77. Soulerous March 16, 2013 at 7:37 pm -      #3577

    @Motor314- If Genjutsu works by controlling the chakra in the target’s brain and Goku’s ki level is far above that which Itachi has ever been shown to control, then Goku’s ki should be too much for him to control. Quite simple and straightforward, and I see no way around it. Do you?
    ~
    The best thing a debater can do is argue for the facts, not the side they want to win. It looks pretty definitive to me, so I’ll stick with it unless it is proven wrong.

  78. Motor314 March 16, 2013 at 7:37 pm -      #3578

    @tkog
    i thought we went over this already.
    -
    itachi just needs to control the cranial nerves, thanks to this new information that Goku has a invisible ki barrier, which is the source of his great resileince and durability, its safe to say that the ki in the brain isn’t that much.
    -
    I calculated earlier that Itachi just needs to contol 1/1000 of goku’s ki. however this was prior to the ki barrier argument, goku has alot of energy in that barrier, taht is how he is able to resist alot of blasts.
    -
    so Itachi just needs to control less than 1/1000 of goku’s ki now. this is even more in itachi’s control.
    -
    so the argument that goku has to much energy for itachi to control is out of the window. its just not the case.
    -
    plus it has never been proven that simply having more ki/chakra can block a genjutsu, i mean if Itachi could control Killer B with 0 effort, and killer b and alot more chakra then itachi.
    -
    so you ahve to prove that simply having more chakra is more of a factor? the burden of proof is on you. i believe Sadot brought this up before.
    -
    so before you simply claim, “goku is to powerful” you have to prove Genjutsu won’t work on those who have more chakra than others.

  79. Motor314 March 16, 2013 at 7:38 pm -      #3579

    @soul
    dang it! i missed your comment i apologize. >_ =
    just look at my above post again apologises

  80. Motor314 March 16, 2013 at 7:39 pm -      #3580

    anyway good debating skils Soul :D

  81. The King of Games March 16, 2013 at 7:46 pm -      #3581

    @Motor314
    Killer Bee doesn’t have more chakra then Itachi at all. Second even if he did that was Edo Itachi who has unlimited chakra so he had a free pass. Clearly there is a limit to how much power one can contro otherwise He would tried to put Edo Nagato under and the Ichiha’s would be unstoppible in general.

  82. Motor314 March 16, 2013 at 7:58 pm -      #3582

    @tkog
    being edo doesn’t give Itachi ulimated chakra, so his possesion of killer B woudl’ve been the same as a human, btw, sasuke put killer b in a genjutsu as well. :D
    =
    plus Itachi could put people under a genjutsu that is why he is one of the most powerful people in naruto.
    -
    however people like nagato has the rinnegan,, which if you watch naruto. Rinnegan>sharingan.
    -
    thats why itachi can’t put nagato in a genjutsu, not to mention, a genjutsu would have no effect on edo nagato, he is dead a brain attack would be pointless, since kabuto was manipulating him.
    -
    Itachi also isn’t unstoppable becuase there are many ways to beat him in the narutoverse. i mean i doubt he would even be in the top 10, still one of the most powerful though :)
    -
    still since Itachi needs to control less than 1/1000 of goku’s ki, its no stretch that he can control goku.

  83. The King of Games March 16, 2013 at 8:03 pm -      #3583

    Edo Zombies do have unlimited chakra that’s what makes them so dangerous. If Madra wanted to be a true ass hole he would spam the fuck out of meteor and just call it a day but plot. 1/1000 of Goku’s ki is over 3000. It only takes about 300 to blow up a moon. Has Itachi ever controled someone that can blow up a moon? No he hasn’t so if he can’t do it someone that weak how could he do it to someone who is far above that. Your also assumming that energy is divided in the body which there isn’t any proof of in DBZ.

  84. Motor314 March 16, 2013 at 8:11 pm -      #3584

    @tkog
    the only thing we know from dbz about ki, is that it rests within the center of the body, and you have to channel it out to use attacks.
    -
    hold on yes i do have proof it is distrubuted evenly in the body. dbz based it ki can real life chi, i remember in the links posted it was even titled chi. Toriyama must’ve based his chi on real life chi, like it says in the death battle.
    -
    so it is evenly distributed.
    -
    plus even Toriyama said power levels are absurd and they were debumnked a long time ago.
    -
    plus edo zombies have unlimited chakra, meaning unlimited energy. its like a cheat code in a game to make your character have limitless stamina. it doesn’t make them have ulmited power.
    -
    plus it doesn’t matter Itachi doesn’t need to control all the power within a person, i have no idea how many times we have to say this. Itachi just needs to control the tiny amount that is in the cranial nerves which is less than 1/1000 of goku’s power. i wish i knew how much is dedicated to goku’s ki shield, that should reduce it drasically.
    -
    that is why Itachi can control goku.
    -
    primus described it better, i forgot how, but he did.
    -
    there is no proof that simply having more chakra will be to much to control
    -

  85. The King of Games March 16, 2013 at 8:18 pm -      #3585

    Ki shields do not drain Goku’s ki supply i have no idea where you getting this from. 1/1000 of his power is still more then anything Itachi has ever handle. You also seem to not understnad how power levels are useless. They aren’t even useless the scouters were because for the most part people only one because of power levels. The only useless part about powerlevels was that the good guys always had more then the bad guys thought they had. That was the useless part they were under estimating them because they saw a 5 when it was actually more then that.

  86. Soulerous March 17, 2013 at 6:02 am -      #3586

    Ah, I missed the part about 1/1000. First off though, it shouldn’t matter if the targeted person has more or less ki/chakra than Itachi. His limit is determined by the most he has been shown to control.
    Secondly, Goku’s “ki shield” is just our fan-name for the fact that the latent energy in Goku’s body somehow deflects ki blasts.
    Thirdly, if Itachi only has to control 1/1000 of someone’s chakra for Genjutsu to work, and because Goku has far more ki than anyone in Naruto is known to have, we can logically conclude that Goku’s 1/1000 is greater than that of anyone else Itachi has used Genjutsu on.
    ~
    In short, the chakra in Goku’s brain is too much for Itachi to manipulate because everyone else he’s targeted has had less chakra in their brains. This places his limit far below what is required.
    ~
    As always, that can change.

  87. Mike March 17, 2013 at 8:12 am -      #3587

    “No Mike, I did not contradict myself at all.”
    -many times actually.
    -
    -
    “Genjutsu doesn’t work by pushing against other chakra. It works by controlling it. It’s not my fault you don’t understand what immaterial means.”
    -i have not said pushing against it once, i have used the term force vs force, which is still covers what you just said.
    -i know exactly what immaterial means, apparently you don’t understand that two elements that are immaterial can interact, much less that for genjutsu to work at all they have to interact.
    -
    -
    “itachi just needs to control the cranial nerves, thanks to this new information that Goku has a invisible ki barrier, which is the source of his great resileince and durability, its safe to say that the ki in the brain isn’t that much.”
    -no one said that at all, there is no invisible ki barrier. it’s the level of ki in his body naturally that acts as a barrier because of how much more there is in there than the attack coming at him(basically so dense of energy that the same type of energy cannot penetrate).
    -
    -
    “I calculated earlier that Itachi just needs to contol 1/1000 of goku’s ki.”
    -didn’t i show that that calculation was just a bunch of bull? yep.
    -
    -
    “so Itachi just needs to control less than 1/1000 of goku’s ki now. this is even more in itachi’s control.”
    -how about i rehash it for you….
    -goku has 3,000,000 base power level minimum(middle of series).
    -200 blows up the moon
    -the estimate used was 2% of ki in brain
    -so enough for 15,000 separate moon bustings(this is not scalling, just using what we know so thus is low end).
    -2% of that is 300 moons
    -itachi would need to show he could manipulate enough chakra to blow up the moon 300 times.
    -your 1/1000 would be itachi needing to prove the same but for only 15 moons(based on the 3 million power level).
    -
    -
    “plus it has never been proven that simply having more ki/chakra can block a genjutsu, i mean if Itachi could control Killer B with 0 effort, and killer b and alot more chakra then itachi.”
    -? lol ? reversing the proof needed to warrant a NLF? not gonna happen.
    -
    -
    “so you ahve to prove that simply having more chakra is more of a factor? the burden of proof is on you. i believe Sadot brought this up before.”
    -……..wow……n….l….f
    -
    -
    “the only thing we know from dbz about ki, is that it rests within the center of the body, and you have to channel it out to use attacks.”
    -completely unproven. all we have from REAL sources is that it’s 3 parts(courage, energy and mind), and that it is spiritual energy.
    -what you have there, and what i have pointed out more than a few times, is a wiki(not usable in itself) that describes the real life version of what ki/chakra is. apparently the creators of both series have already said that they made their’s different from the real life ones.
    -
    -
    “plus even Toriyama said power levels are absurd and they were debumnked a long time ago.”
    -not in what we already know from them being used at what levels. 200 blows up a moon will always be 200 blows up a moon, and since that is a direct energy to attack ability(kamehameha), we know that any given power level after that can be divided into every 200=moon busting.

  88. Soulerous March 17, 2013 at 11:32 am -      #3588

    many times actually.” -You say yes, I say no. But I would know, because I’m the only one that actually knew what I was saying the whole time. You have a habit of misunderstanding things.
    ~
    And non-physical things can occupy the same space, which is why I said you don’t understand what immaterial means. They don’t block each other unless they have that property, and ki has displayed that property only for physical blasts. At least, that’s what I thought. I believe I was wrong about that.
    ~
    Here Frieza uses tiny little blasts on Goku, and they are not deflected. This one is a bit bigger, and it’s not deflected either. Here we see the mighty Frieza get hit by two energy attacks by Krillin and Gohan, which detonate upon impact. In the case of these and the clip of Goku sharing energy with Frieza I posted earlier, there is literally no way to prove the projected energy was greater or even close to what the targeted people had in their bodies. So your “too much to move” argument does not work with those.
    ~
    It is quite clear to me that Dragon Ball characters can only deflect physical ki when they concentrate on doing that. It doesn’t take much concentration perhaps, but it is certainly not an automatic property. I suppose that’s why they usually use their hands to block things.
    ~
    Anyway, you still don’t see the difference between interaction in the sense that it matters here, and displacement. Intangible things don’t displace each other, they only “interact” when they are applied to that purpose. Please tell me you understand that much?
    ~
    You have been called stubborn and a wanker multiple times by many people on multiple debating sites. I certainly will not think less of you for this, but you should know it isn’t for no reason. You should accept that there are some things that you are incorrect about. I accept this about myself.
    ~
    Yet of the two of us, I am the only one who has changed my support for the winning character as I learned more. I accept new facts and am open-minded. Remember, I was supporting you on various arguments before, and you were explaining things to me. It was fun debating with you, even if that isn’t as true of this last argument. I do hope this doesn’t put any animosity between us though, because even though I think I’m right and you think you’re right, it’s just a debate about fictional characters. We shouldn’t take it too seriously.
    ~
    Anyway, we finally have our winner. Hallelujah.

  89. The King of Games March 17, 2013 at 12:02 pm -      #3589

    What are we arguing about with ki exactly? You two seem to be having a whole different type of debate right.

  90. Soulerous March 17, 2013 at 12:09 pm -      #3590

    Oh, it’s just about Goku’s latent energy automatically deflecting Genjutsu. It should have ended already. Sorry for taking up so much space.

  91. The King of Games March 17, 2013 at 12:12 pm -      #3591

    Technically when you think about it is doing just because of the fact that it’s too much for Itachi to control. Anyway on another note in the new DBZ movie Tien and Piccolo get taken out by chopsticks.
    www.youtube.com/watch?v=0sCC2qh1Rfk
    Ki is fucking broken.

  92. Amm0vamp1r3 March 17, 2013 at 12:18 pm -      #3592

    Was Garlic jr canon? If so didn’t he use some form of mind control?

  93. Soulerous March 17, 2013 at 12:20 pm -      #3593

    We argued over it actually deflecting, but yeah, it is a moot point now.

  94. Mike March 17, 2013 at 12:25 pm -      #3594

    ““many times actually.” -You say yes, I say no. But I would know, because I’m the only one that actually knew what I was saying the whole time. You have a habit of misunderstanding things.”
    -actually you have absolutely no idea how wrong you are, i’ll explain in a moment(although i have already said this to you).
    -
    -
    “And non-physical things can occupy the same space, which is why I said you don’t understand what immaterial means.”
    -for genjutsu’s immaterial chakra to have any effect on another person’s chakra it has to interact with it, and has been said to do exactly this in the scan from earlier. that means it HAS to interact with other immaterial things to do what it does. immaterial things don’t have to interact as a point of fact, but this one absolutely does or else it could not do anything at all.
    -
    -
    “They don’t block each other unless they have that property, and ki has displayed that property only for physical blasts. At least, that’s what I thought. I believe I was wrong about that.”
    -so you still argue the point, and then admit you were wrong? and i’m the one that doesn’t understand things?????
    -
    -
    “Here Frieza uses tiny little blasts on Goku, and they are not deflected. This one is a bit bigger, and it’s not deflected either. ”
    -forgetting that whole force vs force thing are we? why would a lesser force block a higher force? it wouldn’t, hence 90% of DBZ.
    -
    -
    “Here we see the mighty Frieza get hit by two energy attacks by Krillin and Gohan, which detonate upon impact. In the case of these and the clip of Goku sharing energy with Frieza I posted earlier, there is literally no way to prove the projected energy was greater or even close to what the targeted people had in their bodies. ”
    -so by your logic gohan and krillin can use more energy than frieza in the frieza series and goku when beaten up has more power in his body at that spot than frieza can use to hurt him after fighting him and knowing what he can then take……no logic whatsoever there soulerous. hell, if you want, i’ll quote you the official canon power levels for that time period that shows that you are wrong.
    -
    -
    “So your “too much to move” argument does not work with those”
    -it absolutely does, have proved it before, and have just debunked your new points also.
    -
    -
    “It is quite clear to me that Dragon Ball characters can only deflect physical ki when they concentrate on doing that.”
    -then all the scenes where they just stand and take the blast mean nothing to you. which means you ignore evidence from the show and from me.
    -
    -
    ” I suppose that’s why they usually use their hands to block things.”
    -yeah sure, because why catch a foot ball when it will stop just as fine hitting your face instead…..
    -
    -
    “You have been called stubborn and a wanker multiple times by many people on multiple debating sites”
    -i have been called that by some people arguing for 2-4 different franchises on only this site, i have only made a handfull at most posts on 1 different debating site my entire life.
    -But, nice to know you attack my character with lies and all.
    -
    -
    “I certainly will not think less of you for this, but you should know it isn’t for no reason. You should accept that there are some things that you are incorrect about. I accept this about myself.”
    -the thing is though that i can definitively prove my point right with canon proof and disprove yours with the same. maybe you should stop trying to be so high and mighty and admit you ARE actually wrong since you ARE actually wrong.
    -
    -
    “Yet of the two of us, I am the only one who has changed my support for the winning character as I learned more.”
    -this means nothing other than i have not been swayed to the losing side by false claims and invalid proof(of both which have been used by itachi supporters). you on the other hand did listen to them for a while.
    -
    -
    “I accept new facts and am open-minded. Remember, I was supporting you on various arguments before, and you were explaining things to me. It was fun debating with you, even if that isn’t as true of this last argument. I do hope this doesn’t put any animosity between us though, because even though I think I’m right and you think you’re right, it’s just a debate about fictional characters. We shouldn’t take it too seriously.”
    -the only thing i take mildly seriously about this entire site is that others become able to see how they are wrong when shown the proof, it has been the major problem i have seen in every thread i have and have not been involved in and it does bother me some. probably something to do with my dislike for religion dismissing science so much.
    -
    -
    garlic jr. was not canon, the only movies to be canon are the bardok movie, the trunks movie and the new battle of gods movie.

  95. Amm0vamp1r3 March 17, 2013 at 12:28 pm -      #3595

    Yea I couldn’t remeber if Garlic jr was a movie or really early in the series,so yea moot

  96. sadot06 March 17, 2013 at 12:38 pm -      #3596

    @Sadot06- Bottom of post #3559. Goku should win with that fact. Right?

    I don’t think so actually. The 1/1000 is a loose guess by motor based on a measuring system that doesn’t really mean anything in its own universe much less another. Ki is supposed to be amassed in the center of the body in DBZ. There is no way Goku has a ton of power running through his cranial nerves as it would screw up his senses. Which is part one of genjutsu, Itachi putting his energy through the nerves already distorts the target’s senses. Then he manipulates the rest of the ki there, including his own. Also in Naruto merely having inferior chakra hasn’t been a barrier. Kureni put Itachi briefly in a genjutsu even though she’s faaarr weaker.

  97. Mike March 17, 2013 at 12:49 pm -      #3597

    ” Ki is supposed to be amassed in the center of the body in DBZ.”
    -this has been said again and again and no proof of this what so ever, in fact the only proof we have of ki, shows it is not so. it is 3 parts courage, energy and mind, and is spiritual energy. by this actual evidence(not baseless claims like yours) up to 1/3 of his ki could be in his head down to evenly spaced throughout his body.
    -
    -
    “There is no way Goku has a ton of power running through his cranial nerves as it would screw up his senses.”
    -pure speculation.
    -
    -
    “Which is part one of genjutsu, Itachi putting his energy through the nerves already distorts the target’s senses.”
    -manipulating it is what distorts the senses.
    -
    -
    “Also in Naruto merely having inferior chakra hasn’t been a barrier. Kureni put Itachi briefly in a genjutsu even though she’s faaarr weaker.”
    -yet by your guy’s own logic it only has to affect the chakra amount in the head…..make up your minds, lol. either way, force vs force prevents itachi from applying genjutsu since it is more force than he has ever seen to control.

  98. TheSorrow March 17, 2013 at 12:53 pm -      #3598

    The only way Garlic Jr. could be canon is if the movie took place before Raditz came to Earth.
    -
    The second one would have had to been during the year after Goku defeated Frieza and Vegeta was still training (which explains why both were not present at the time).

  99. Soulerous March 17, 2013 at 1:09 pm -      #3599

    @Mike- Holy smack, you have again shown utter oblivion to what I am saying.
    ~
    for genjutsu’s immaterial chakra to have any effect on another person’s chakra it has to interact with it” -Yeah, that doesn’t mean it forces other energy of the same kind out of the space it occupies. If that were so, it wouldn’t even be able to condense. The effects ki can be applied to accomplish are not based on physics.
    ~
    so you still argue the point, and then admit you were wrong?” -What? No, I said Goku’s ki doesn’t automatically block physical blasts like we both thought, not that I was wrong about it not displaying the property for only physical blasts. Please, look for context. It would really help you understand me.
    ~
    why would a lesser force block a higher force?” -You are claiming those tiny little blasts from Frieza were stronger than all the energy Goku had? There is no proof for that whatsoever.
    ~
    so by your logic gohan and krillin can use more energy than frieza in the frieza series
    -It is truly very difficult for me to imagine how you could misinterpret what I said so incredibly badly. No, by my logic, Gohan and Krillin can definitely not in any way use more power than Frieza. Frieza was hit by blasts from Krillin and Gohan vastly weaker than what he himself was capable of producing or blocking.
    ~
    And the point is, the comparatively weak blasts did not bounce off him. They were not blocked or repelled. They hit him and blew up. This means that ki does not naturally block physical ki, and it most definitely does not block intangible ki. It must be used to do these things.
    ~
    i have been called that by some people arguing for 2-4 different franchises on only this site, i have only made a handfull at most posts on 1 different debating site my entire life.
    -But, nice to know you attack my character with lies and all.

    -1, it was not a lie. I did not make it up. There is mention of you on Spacebattles and BankGamblingtopia in addition to this site. 2, I did not attack you with that information.
    ~
    I should have already dropped this, and now I will. I know my words and arguments are not clear to you, so there’s no sense in trying any further. Sorry for any ire I have invoked.
    ~
    @Sadot06- Mike’s answer for this is correct. Unless we have definitive proof that Goku has little ki in his brain, Genjutsu won’t affect him.

  100. Mike March 17, 2013 at 1:11 pm -      #3600

    all i have to say is you are just completely wrong soulerous. i have proved my point many times and in ways that are not even debatable but you continue to argue. i’ll just leave it at “goku wins” and let you think whatever you want, i’m not in the mood to argue pointlessly with anyone right now.

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