Goku Vs Itachi Uchiha

Goku (Dragonball Z) Vs Itachi Uchiha (Naruto)

Here is a match in which I’ll confess to not know much other than that Goku can go head to head with Superman, so that must mean something.

So, dear reader, who wins this fight?

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2,790 Comments on "Goku Vs Itachi Uchiha"

  1. Mike March 3, 2013 at 9:26 pm -      #2601

    wth happened to my post?
    -
    -
    “-If Goku could learn how, I’m confident he could employ Genjutsu Dissipation. Otherwise, I don’t think power is an issue.”
    -power is deffinitelly an issue, otherwise you are commiting a NLF without showing it is not power related. and since we already know it is direct chakra vs chakra from canon naruto quotes, we know it is power related. hell, even getting out of it is directly power dependent.
    -
    -
    “-If you please, what is his 6th sense?”
    -ki sense. and it’s good enough to actively track people in high speed fights with along with pin point someone lightyears away to around something like 20′ or so(from when he used his ki sense to find the new namek planet and Instant transmitioned himself there right by the group of people).

  2. sadot06 March 3, 2013 at 9:27 pm -      #2602

    “sense an ability is about to be used by sensing itachi’s chakra changing/moving and dodging”
    -Goku can sense ki and is extremely fast. That’s a valid tactic, unless the Genjutsu takes effect faster than he can react, of course.
    ~
    “sensing an ability is about to be used by sensing itachi’s chakra changing/moving and putting up ki shield”
    -Same as above.”

    -That is not proof that Goku has combat precog, which is what Mike is implying.

  3. sadot06 March 3, 2013 at 9:30 pm -      #2603

    -power is deffinitelly an issue, otherwise you are commiting a NLF without showing it is not power related. and since we already know it is direct chakra vs chakra from canon naruto quotes, we know it is power related. hell, even getting out of it is directly power dependent.

    Stop misusing NLF. NLF is to prevent somebody from saying the killing curse kills whoever it touches, therefore Voldemort can kill Galactus.

  4. Mike March 3, 2013 at 9:31 pm -      #2604

    “-That is not proof that Goku has combat precog, which is what Mike is implying.”
    -how presumptuous. i am saying that goku will know that itachi is about to do something by the natrual precursors to the attack. like aim dodging, only that goku can sense when itachi is doing anything with his chakra.

  5. Amm0vamp1r3 March 3, 2013 at 9:31 pm -      #2605

    Also this
    -

  6. Mike March 3, 2013 at 9:34 pm -      #2606

    “Stop misusing NLF. NLF is to prevent somebody from saying the killing curse kills whoever it touches, therefore Voldemort can kill Galactus.”
    -no, NLF is claiming something that has not shown a limit can do whatever limit it wants. just like you are claiming that since no limit was stated for how much power itachi’s genjutsu can control, that he can control millions of times more power than he has ever seen before. it’s the perfect NLF example really.

  7. Mike March 3, 2013 at 9:37 pm -      #2607

    @ammo
    -you might have your videos messed up. 7:47 in that video is goku catching frieza’s energy ball with his hand, not a ki shield. unless you are trying to shown that the body is also a ki shield like i have showed. also, you posted the same video twice.

  8. sadot06 March 3, 2013 at 9:38 pm -      #2608

    “no, NLF is claiming something that has not shown a limit can do whatever limit it wants. just like you are claiming that since no limit was stated for how much power itachi’s genjutsu can control, that he can control millions of times more power than he has ever seen before. it’s the perfect NLF example really.”

    Yes. That example I gave is a NLF, which is proof you don’t what you’re talking about. And I never claimed that Itachi is controlling “millions of times more power than he”s ever seen before.” Or that there was no limit to genjutsu. You just lied.

  9. Amm0vamp1r3 March 3, 2013 at 9:41 pm -      #2609

    The first one was to show that even when he isn’t glowing gokus skin is tough,he held that ball back
    9
    -
    And the second one was Goku getting covered in lava or magma which ever one is the surface version. And he was fine

  10. Mike March 3, 2013 at 9:43 pm -      #2610

    “Yes. That example I gave is a NLF, which is proof you don’t what you’re talking about. And I never claimed that Itachi is controlling “millions of times more power than he”s ever seen before.” Or that there was no limit to genjutsu. You just lied.”
    -lol, your example didn’t go into enough detail to show it was an nlf, mine did. that’s the difference. and in fact you claiming that itachi’s genjutsu will control goku’s mind’s chakra then you have in fact claimed that itachi can control “millions of times more power than he’s ever seen before”. never said you said there was no limit, just that you were violating the nlf rule which implies that because there is no limit said, that it can do something far beyond what it has shown to do.
    -
    -
    You really should stop, you are not doing well in the reality/logic/truth game right now.

  11. sadot06 March 3, 2013 at 9:43 pm -      #2611

    And the video showed a couple things. Goku doesn’t have combat precog, and he doesn’t have a passive ki shield since his hands got burned at the 7:47 mark. His body isn’t a ki shield. His body through training and gathering ki can improve it’s physical strength, speed, and ability to withstand physical trauma. Actual ki shields, a technique that he must activate, have bee shown to stop physical energy projections. That isn’t proof that he can withstand a non physical attack to his mind, which is genjutsu.

  12. Soulerous March 3, 2013 at 9:46 pm -      #2612

    all of the hundred or so examples of an energy blast hitting them and them not blocking it and them not being hurt.
    -But what proof is there that this isn’t just durability? How do we know this means that all ki energy in general is stopped by Goku’s body?
    ~
    The best example is Frieza’s suprise death beam vs SS goku cleanly hitting Goku’s head, snapping goku’s neck back and goku is un harmed save for a small scuff I dont think the vid has been posted yet though it was brought up
    -That’s a good example, thank you, but there is a difference between being durable enough to tank a blast and having your own ki repel it outright, and this difference is not illustrated by these examples.
    ~
    power is deffinitelly an issue
    -Yes, thou art correct. I can’t remember what I was thinking, but that post was right around the time I actually read about Genjutsu on the wiki.
    ~
    ki sense” -Pfft, I should have known that. Of course ki sense.
    ~
    @sadot06- He used No-limits Fallacy correctly. He stated that claiming Genjutsu can control any amount of energy would be claiming it has no limits.

  13. sadot06 March 3, 2013 at 9:49 pm -      #2613

    Also Goku in that clip never fell in the lava or was covered by it. It touched his butt and he flew through the air above it yelling that his butt was on fire.

  14. Amm0vamp1r3 March 3, 2013 at 9:52 pm -      #2614

    Frieza threw the lava at him and he was fully covered,did it touch his skin I don’t know but he was covered
    -
    Also even though it touched his rear,his pants weren’t burned

  15. Amm0vamp1r3 March 3, 2013 at 9:53 pm -      #2615

    Also This not much but still his RT is great
    -

  16. The King of Games March 3, 2013 at 9:54 pm -      #2616

    That lava thing never happened in the manga it was just filler to make the fight longer. So yeah if your going to post clips double check with the manga to see if they actually happen or not.

  17. Dassadec March 3, 2013 at 9:54 pm -      #2617

    Goku doesn’t have combat precog,
    -
    Chronologically this is before the trunks scene and his training on planet Yardrat. He first displayed that kind of sense in the Trunks scene so him not displaying such earilier in the timeline makes perfect sense

  18. sadot06 March 3, 2013 at 9:55 pm -      #2618

    @sadot06- He used No-limits Fallacy correctly. He stated that claiming Genjutsu can control any amount of energy would be claiming it has no limits.

    He used it incorrectly because he calls NLF every time somebody points out the proper way to break a genjutsu in response to his baseless claim that Goku’s ki level makes him immune to genjutsu. It’s not claiming genjutsu has no limit, it’s pointing out that genjutsu is not about raw power.

  19. Amm0vamp1r3 March 3, 2013 at 9:55 pm -      #2619

    Last Video,1:00
    -
    Also Im not doing that double check the manga thing,Because that to long so I will just stop posting vids.

  20. The King of Games March 3, 2013 at 9:59 pm -      #2620

    Okay how about you if you feel the need to post a video ask if the scene plays the same in the manga. For some reason the anime is filled with gag scenes and filler during the fights. Then gain the filler does make some of the fights amazing like Goku vs Majin Vegeta. I mean the manga practically ignores that fight.

  21. sadot06 March 3, 2013 at 10:00 pm -      #2621

    “Chronologically this is before the trunks scene and his training on planet Yardrat. He first displayed that kind of sense in the Trunks scene so him not displaying such earilier in the timeline makes perfect sense”

    He doesn’t display combat precog. His “training” on Yardrat was learning Instant Transmission. He picked up on Trunks’ emotions and determined that he didn’t have killing intent and thus didn’t bother reacting to the initial attack.

  22. Amm0vamp1r3 March 3, 2013 at 10:02 pm -      #2622

    I just don’t want to be constantly bothering people with “hey was this in the manga” and then end up with like 15 vids and only like 3 of them matter
    -
    I don’t think the vids added anything any way more so that a visual for what has been claimed ya know

  23. Soulerous March 3, 2013 at 10:04 pm -      #2623

    Why the flipping flack are we talking about combat precognition? Seeing an attack coming by sensing the energy is not the same.

  24. The King of Games March 3, 2013 at 10:05 pm -      #2624

    Wouldn’t call the ki sense precor or at the very least a strong one. It’s like a really weak spider-sense. It’s let’s him know if he’s about to be attacked or not he just won’t know from where or what just that he will be attcked and what the intentions behind it is. So he would basically sense that Itachi will attack adn that it will be to kill, he just won’t know what the attack is.

  25. Mike March 3, 2013 at 10:31 pm -      #2625

    “He used it incorrectly because he calls NLF every time somebody points out the proper way to break a genjutsu in response to his baseless claim that Goku’s ki level makes him immune to genjutsu. It’s not claiming genjutsu has no limit, it’s pointing out that genjutsu is not about raw power.”
    -it’s not used incorrectly. you claiming he can put goku in a genjutsu when no limit to genjutus has been shown. as a matter of fact though a limit has been shown, it’s what he has done in the naruto series, and as another matter of fact it has already been shown to be power based. so you are wrong that i was incorrect to call you out on the NLF and you are incorrect in it not being power based.
    -
    -
    “Also Im not doing that double check the manga thing,Because that to long so I will just stop posting vids.”
    -all the anime is canon. the intelectual property rights were signed off on and no canon statement about them being not canon was said. people often like to assume canon is what only they want to accept but that is not true.
    -
    -
    “Why the flipping flack are we talking about combat precognition? Seeing an attack coming by sensing the energy is not the same.”
    -yes i agree and have said so. some don’t seem to understand that though.
    -
    -
    “-But what proof is there that this isn’t just durability? How do we know this means that all ki energy in general is stopped by Goku’s body?”
    -because the only thing that changes is his amount of ki and they use their physical body to deflect and swat away ki blasts when normally they detonate on contact or destroy physical objects.
    -
    -
    “-That’s a good example, thank you, but there is a difference between being durable enough to tank a blast and having your own ki repel it outright, and this difference is not illustrated by these examples.”
    -i don’t see where you even get this idea from. how if not for the ki does one’s body become for durable when it is the ki that is raised? even in the middle of fights, one thing that hurt them before, after powering up and having more ki in them, doesn’t hurt them afterwards. there’s a direct correlation of ki in body to durability. to say it is his physical form that becomes more durable while the ki becomes more present is to actually say that the ki is what makes him more durable.
    -
    maybe you can explain more on your position soulerous

  26. The King of Games March 3, 2013 at 10:38 pm -      #2626

    Okay Mike I like the DBZ anime and all but you can’t say all of the anime is canon. I mean we have filler that contradicts the manga and scenes that never happened in a fight. The biggest plot hole created by filler is that villains keep their bodies in the anime when in the mange they don’t. I mean by that logic GT would be canon which it isn’t. It contradicts the manga on some many levels it’s not even funny. It also helps the Akira disregarded it and that Dragon Ball Online which is canon ignore it’s existence entirely. Now I’m on your side with the whole Goku takes this thing, but I’m not going to let you call filler canon when it’s not.

  27. Mike March 3, 2013 at 10:43 pm -      #2627

    anything that contradicts is not canon of course but the anime is canon none the less. legally and all. the fact of the matter is that no canon statements are given other than most of the movies being “what ifs” leaving the trunks and bardok movie still canon. without an actual canon statement and without events happening in defferent/alternate universes and all happening in the same story line, that makes(to my dismay) even gt canon(ultil of course the new movie comes out which makes that timeline never happen). in all sense of official terms, the anime is canon.

  28. Mike March 3, 2013 at 10:44 pm -      #2628

    it’s all a manner of intelectual property rights, same continuum, and canon statements.

  29. Soulerous March 3, 2013 at 10:52 pm -      #2629

    they use their physical body to deflect and swat away ki blasts when normally they detonate on contact or destroy physical objects.
    -They normally detonate on contact. Excellent point.
    ~
    how if not for the ki does one’s body become for durable when it is the ki that is raised?
    -Sorry, when I said “there is a difference between being durable enough to tank a blast and having your own ki repel it outright” I was talking about the ki repelling other ki, not physical damage. Did you read my post, number 2578 on page 26? Please do. That outlines my stance pretty well. You should be able to draw what my conclusion is from that.

  30. The King of Games March 3, 2013 at 10:54 pm -      #2630

    Mike Gt isn’t canon it contradicts the entire manga and doesn’t fit into the timeline that Dragon Ball Online has. Dragon Ball Online is canon. Also Akira stated that GT is non canon so it’s pretty clear that GT didn’t happen. Bardock and Trunks’ movies are canon because they are telling events that happened. I was about to say that the new movies doesn;t change canon but just remmebered that it state that Super Saiyan God is the final transformationa dn that there is no SSJ4. I know GT was bad but they seem to try and drive it into our skulls that it never happened.
    Anyway Mike I still wouldn’t say all the anime is canon just the parts that don’t contradict the manga. So are you looking forward to Kai version of the Buu Saga because I am.

  31. Mike March 3, 2013 at 11:06 pm -      #2631

    “Ki is responsible for Goku’s power. It makes his flesh greater. It makes him faster, stronger, and more durable. It is because of ki that he can withstand other ki blasts. Isn’t that right?
    ~
    Yet we cannot assume that this works by stopping all other ki. First and foremost, we must assume that Goku withstands ki blasts simply by being durable. We know ki makes him durable, but to say it blocks all other ki is to add another affect that we have no evidence for. Being durable is enough.”
    -this is from your post on the last page you mentioned. and i believe i already made my points regarding it. so i do see where you come from but i do believe i have shown the durability to be from the ki not the physical form being more durable. i mean, their skin is not any harder or anything and i’m sure their innerds don’t magically stay afloat in their bodies(the ones not held by muscle and tendons and such) when in the extreme gravities they have trained in. even just the fluids in their eyes under that intense gravity would have made them blind if not for some force actively making it resilient to outside forces.
    -
    -
    “Mike Gt isn’t canon it contradicts the entire manga and doesn’t fit into the timeline that Dragon Ball Online has. Dragon Ball Online is canon.”
    -story line wise it does not contradict the manga. it follows after it, continuing the story. dragon ball online is another topic all together.
    -
    -
    “Also Akira stated that GT is non canon so it’s pretty clear that GT didn’t happen.”
    -he actually never said that. he only commented that he had and wants nothing to do with it.
    -
    -
    “Bardock and Trunks’ movies are canon because they are telling events that happened.”
    -everything “happened” once the story is told. this logic works for gt also.
    -
    -
    ” I was about to say that the new movies doesn;t change canon but just remmebered that it state that Super Saiyan God is the final transformationa dn that there is no SSJ4. I know GT was bad but they seem to try and drive it into our skulls that it never happened.”
    -what mainly discredits gt from being canon once the new movie comes out is the whole timeline of gt happening not happening though combined with the creator of the show being involved in one and not the other, making the one he is involved in canon.
    -
    -
    “Anyway Mike I still wouldn’t say all the anime is canon just the parts that don’t contradict the manga. So are you looking forward to Kai version of the Buu Saga because I am.”
    -the parts that don’t contradict are what i agree with, the filler though is still canon. it doesn’t contradict anything and is still licensed by akira toriyama to be there.
    -haven’t been watching the Kai version much. is that the one on saturday mornings currently? i perfered to watch the original uncut versions like when recoom flicks off goku.

  32. Soulerous March 3, 2013 at 11:23 pm -      #2632

    i do believe i have shown the durability to be from the ki not the physical form being more durable. i mean, their skin is not any harder or anything and i’m sure their innerds don’t magically stay afloat in their bodies(the ones not held by muscle and tendons and such) when in the extreme gravities they have trained in. even just the fluids in their eyes under that intense gravity would have made them blind if not for some force actively making it resilient to outside forces.
    -So you are saying that the ki doesn’t allow Goku to withstand blasts by actually strengthening his flesh, but rather by way of a shield in and around him? That’s all the explanation I asked for. Now, you say you’ve shown proof of this, so would you please point me toward it?

  33. The King of Games March 3, 2013 at 11:25 pm -      #2633

    @Mike
    The Kai on tv isn’t up to Buu Saga and won’t be for a while seeing how they haven’t finished. I think they’re only going to release it on DVD though. I’m not going to get into a debate about canon with you seeing how we have two different views on it.

  34. Mike March 3, 2013 at 11:33 pm -      #2634

    “-So you are saying that the ki doesn’t allow Goku to withstand blasts by actually strengthening his flesh, but rather by way of a shield in and around him? That’s all the explanation I asked for. Now, you say you’ve shown proof of this, so would you please point me toward it?”
    -well against the energy blasts the most recent example is the video just posted of him catching frieza’s energy ball and holding it back, and for a more physical example i’ll just mention all the times when a punch would throw them through mountains yet when they power up in the same fights, the punch to the face just moves their skin around. it shows the skin is still plyable but somehow able to take mountain/planet busting attacks. so that’s the physical body showing it deflects/blocks ki attacks, and the physical body showing it blocks immense physical attacks, all while still maintaining it’s normal plyability and while showing that outside forces such as gravity(from my last post) don’t affect even the parts that are kept intact by physical restraints(such as liquid or “floating” organs in the body.
    -
    -
    “I’m not going to get into a debate about canon with you seeing how we have two different views on it.”
    -that’s fine, in general i’m more of a mind to agree with your standpoint from my personal opinion of what i would want, but i just can’t get by how the legal agreements to make the shows while not having a canon policy makes them canon legally and logically.

  35. Soulerous March 4, 2013 at 12:02 am -      #2635

    Alright, so it is a ki field that protects Dragon Ball characters from physical harm as well as ki energy and allows them to swat away blasts that would ordinarily detonate on impact, which means this field blocks other ki energy, and there are no known instances of ki energy passing through this field without overpowering it, thus Genjutsu can do no better and will not affect Goku.
    ~
    So that’s it, then. Goku slays the ninja.

  36. sadot06 March 4, 2013 at 12:12 am -      #2636

    “Alright, so it is a ki field that protects Dragon Ball characters from physical harm as well as ki energy and allows them to swat away blasts that would ordinarily detonate on impact, which means this field blocks other ki energy, and there are no known instances of ki energy passing through this field without overpowering it, thus Genjutsu can do no better and will not affect Goku.
    ~
    So that’s it, then. Goku slays the ninja.”

    If any of that was proven, sure. Speculation isn’t proof. The only thing established is that some DBZ characters have the ability to summon a ki barrier that can deflect projectiles. There is no proof that Goku can protect is mind from non physical intrusion. If there was a barrier constantly around Goku protecting him from harm, there would actually be evidence of it. He got stuck with a needle for God’s sake. He got heart disease, but we’re supposed to swallow this pile that he’s practically immune from harm because of an invisible barrier? Bull.

  37. Soulerous March 4, 2013 at 12:26 am -      #2637

    He got stuck with a needle for God’s sake.
    -He got stuck by a needle? Goku? When was this?

  38. Dassadec March 4, 2013 at 12:29 am -      #2638

    He got stuck with a needle, While injured, being cajoled by Chi Chi and Ox king after the vegeta fight, Goku Just doesn’t like needles, he was a bit of a baby about it but he LET it happen

  39. TheSorrow March 4, 2013 at 12:29 am -      #2639

    He got heart disease, but we’re supposed to swallow this pile that he’s practically immune from harm because of an invisible barrier? Bull.
    -
    PIS, also how does a heart disease have anything to with resistance to ki-based attacks?

  40. sadot06 March 4, 2013 at 12:36 am -      #2640

    He didn’t let the needle stick him, he was terrified of it and if he had this shield of invulnerability that protects him from harm that’s being spouted the needle would have broke and he wouldn’t be able to die of a freaking virus.

    Also let this passive ki shield/anti-detonation nonsense die here:www.youtube.com/watch?v=YE1gYATx0lU

  41. sadot06 March 4, 2013 at 12:38 am -      #2641

    And you only get to call CIS if it impairs a character’s ability to complete the terms of the fight. PIS claims are arbitrary and irrelevant.

  42. Mike March 4, 2013 at 12:53 am -      #2642

    @sadot06
    -the fact that you use the needle argument shows what kind of a debater you really are. even as a kid sniper rounds wouldn’t penetrate him. that’s called pis when things like that happen.
    -
    -
    “If any of that was proven, sure. Speculation isn’t proof.”
    -no, speculation is not proof, but all the scans, videos and quotes from both series are what we used as proof.
    -
    -
    “There is no proof that Goku can protect is mind from non physical intrusion.”
    -ki is spiritual energy and physical energy, chakra is the same and considered elementally compatable in this fight anyways; goku’s body deflects and blocks chakra/ki all the time and nothing gets past it unless it is strong enough to hurt him, for which no one in naruto has enough chakra to do that.
    -
    -
    ” If there was a barrier constantly around Goku protecting him from harm, there would actually be evidence of it. ”
    -there is, 2 different kinds, and both have been shown in scans/videos. one an actual shield around his body and the other is his body being the embodiment of a ki shield anyways.
    -
    -
    Try and come to reality where all that you claim is not there has been shown many times.

  43. Soulerous March 4, 2013 at 12:57 am -      #2643

    So Goku got stuck with a needle. It seems sadot06 has defeated himself.
    ~
    Goku is durable enough to crack mountains, and yet he was pierced by a little needle. Thus, ki cannot increase the strength of his flesh. It must be this elusive field of ki that allows him to hit away energy blasts (which wouldn’t work if it were not repelled by other energy, as again, it detonates on impact), and destroy materials that can apparently pierce him when it is lowered.
    ~
    You can’t temporarily lower the physical durability of your skin, now can you? Ki makes him more durable. He was pierced by a needle. You can’t lower the durability of your flesh. He can withstand mountain-busting attacks easily, of both kinetic and ki energy, but it’s not because of his flesh.
    ~
    There’s no evidence of a ki field protecting Goku? Then, pray tell, what is protecting him?
    ~
    PIS, also how does a heart disease have anything to with resistance to ki-based attacks?
    -Excellent question. The answer is wrongness.

  44. Darthgrim March 4, 2013 at 1:54 am -      #2644

    Needle is anime only if I remember my shit correctly.
    -
    Hence non-canon.

  45. Soulerous March 4, 2013 at 2:29 am -      #2645

    You may be right, though Mike says the anime is canon insofar as it does not directly contradict the manga, which sounds right to me. It doesn’t really matter though, the needle would just be the frosting on the snowman.
    ~
    that’s called pis when things like that happen.
    -Could be, but Goku could have also lowered his ki shield despite being scared, though I haven’t actually seen the scene in question. I looked for it then clicked onto a related video about a nose surgery with worms, so I gagged and exited out.

  46. TheSorrow March 4, 2013 at 7:21 am -      #2646

    he wouldn’t be able to die of a freaking virus.
    -
    I don’t recall “immunity to all illnesses” being apart of the description for the ki-barrier. Are you forcibly trying to poke holes in it’s ability?
    -
    And you only get to call CIS if it impairs a character’s ability to complete the terms of the fight. PIS claims are arbitrary and irrelevant.
    -
    Since when was that a rule? We have a scene that actively contradicts Goku’s durability for comedic value, nothing more.

  47. sadot06 March 4, 2013 at 7:34 am -      #2647

    Except it can make his skin tougher, when he powers up. There are just limits. That’s what ki does. And I showed in the video of his fight with Vegeta that he doesn’t have a passive shield or the ability to predict attacks based on sensing ki. If Goku had a shield, energy attacks would hit the shield, not hit his skin, and they’d bounce off depending on potency even if you use the baseless claim that his body is the shield. Goku through training has increased his strength, speed, and durability. When one powers up, they use Ki to enhance all of those things. Like in Naruto when the Raikage uses his lightning to super charge his physical stats or when Lee or Gai use the 8 gates. Him been shown to not blow apart from damage unless it’s super strong, that’s PHYSICAL durability. Not psychic durability. Genjutsu is not a physical attack that will PHYSICALLY touch Goku or manifest with an attack that he can see, which is all we’ve seen him withstand. (Excluding the attacks he couldn’t) That’s why I asked how telepathy works in DBZ because there seems to be no defense for it and it doesn’t seem to be magic. But yeah, saying Goku can block genjutsu because its spiritual in nature, and spirit is chakra, and chakra=ki, and we’ve seen Goku block ki (physical manifestations) therefore he can’t be effected by genjutsu is not only poor logic, but it’s without any evidence.

  48. sadot06 March 4, 2013 at 7:40 am -      #2648

    “I don’t recall “immunity to all illnesses” being apart of the description for the ki-barrier. Are you forcibly trying to poke holes in it’s ability?”

    I was using it to poke holes in Soul’s claim that Goku has a constant barrier around himself to defend him from physical harm, ki and every manifestation of it. We can argue what a virus can be considered, but I’d rather focus on team Goku proving genjutsu doesn’t work without speculation based on ki wanking.

  49. Motor314 March 4, 2013 at 10:08 am -      #2649

    @everyone
    sorry i was to busy doing my hw to reply to this thread last night.
    -
    I thought the ki shile dwas already disprovn, because it is simply the ki within goku’s body making him strong? not a F^cking invisible shield that stops all ki from reaching him.
    -
    have you all lost your minds. there is no proof anything in the slightest exists.
    -
    want proof?
    -
    lets pick a fight ok?
    -
    lets say Kid buu vs goku.
    -
    www.youtube.com/watch?v=NbOYQbHUbAg
    -
    goku channels ki to parts of his body to bat aside buu’s attacks.
    -
    he isn’t just merely like oh whatever i am just going to use my imaginery sheild ot protect my ki. lol

    -
    Goku having a invisible ki shield is outrageous and is just fan speculation.
    -
    also even if it does exist which it doesn’t, since their is no evidence for it. Itachi fans can make the claim since genjutsu is a spiritual attack that his chakra teleports on top of goku’s brain and thus kills him.
    -
    this actually has more evidence and supporte, because genjutsu goes through trees and everything else.
    -
    bear in mind genjutsu is being used of yin chakra which is the spiritual eneergy of the person to attack and maniulate the enemies brain chakra.
    -
    no now you all get it?
    -
    a ki shield even if it does exist is useless

  50. Motor314 March 4, 2013 at 10:28 am -      #2650

    in any case sorry for losing my temper. I just thought that we were to be dealing with what we know, not fan speculation.
    -
    I want goku to beat itachi, but i only want him to lose with facts.
    -
    remember i am playing devils advocate arguing in ITachi’s favor. I want someone to prove to me that goku wins.

  51. Motor314 March 4, 2013 at 10:33 am -      #2651

    @soul post 2587
    I don’t flatter, I just acknowledge a good argument when i see it, and your argument was spot on perfect. :)

  52. Laharl March 4, 2013 at 10:58 am -      #2652

    Still not seeing why this didn’t stop on the first page.

  53. Envoy March 4, 2013 at 11:20 am -      #2653

    If Goku doesn’t have a Ki barrier, then what protects his clothing?

  54. The King of Games March 4, 2013 at 11:24 am -      #2654

    Envoy has a point. The main reason his clothes don’t get completely destroyed is because they are made to resist weak ki attacks and are then enhanced by his ki barrier.

  55. Max81 March 4, 2013 at 11:31 am -      #2655

    @laharl
    well for several reasons.
    -
    basically the debate began like all dbz debate.
    -
    1. goku wins because he can bust planets
    -
    this however was countered by what we all know as Goku won’t bust simply bust a planet for no reason. this argument was then followed by.
    -
    2. since CIS is off Goku will speedblitz and kill goku.
    -
    this was countered by goku anaylizing his opponent, since anaylizing doesn’t count as CIS that was debunked.
    -
    3. the next one was by milky, itachi is invincible and was a major troll.
    -
    all of his arguments were debunked.
    4. then came pages of mindless cussing.
    -
    5. after that came can genjutsu afftect goku.
    -
    this argument got lost by more trolling my milky and many other various debating.
    -
    6. itachi can match goku in speed
    -
    this was obviously debunked.
    -
    7. then we had pages of can goku bust a star system
    -
    why? i have no idea
    -
    8. Motor then came in and he and Ammo restarted the debate.
    -
    Seradon briefly opposed itachi winning, but gave in, and soon everyone at the time agreed itachi could win.
    -
    9. Tkog and dassedec came in and put up alot of valid points that made the debate more interesting. this took hundred of comments and about 4 pages
    -
    10. eventrually primus, guardian of tardis and soulerous came in and brought up even more valid points.
    -
    so basically that has been what has been happening for the past 2,652 comments.
    -
    point battling point. each arguing for their character.
    -
    goku supporters vs Itachi supporters.
    -
    the basic question still remain.
    1. can genjutsu affect goku to the point were goku will die or be unconcious.
    -
    this is the only question that needs to be answered.
    -
    if genjutsu does’nt affect goku, well itachi becomes a smear on his fist.
    -
    if it does ITachi can get a well deserved BankGambling award.
    -

  56. sadot06 March 4, 2013 at 11:39 am -      #2656

    Stop with the ridiculous ki barrier arguments until you prove he can block genjutsu. Clothes in DBZ get destroyed and ripped all the time. A ki barrier is a technique that blocks projectiles. Goku can increase his PHYSICAL durability by channeling ki to make him more resistant to punishment.

  57. sadot06 March 4, 2013 at 11:41 am -      #2657

    Here is an interesting argument that was brought up and wasn’t properly addressed due to lots of trolling and fan wanking. I think it was number 140

    “To your second, Naruto has inhuman quantities of chakra, which is analogious to ki (actually creating chakra involves mixing Ki with psychic energy.) yet this offers him no protection whatsoever against genjutsu.”

    “To your final, a genjutsu creates a disturbance in someone’s chakra which, in turn, causes a malfunction in the sensory cortex. The actual energy needed is miniscule, since the sensory cortex never carries a charge over a couple volts (the world would seem painfully bright and noisy, otherwise.) “

  58. Max81 March 4, 2013 at 11:52 am -      #2658

    though i have to admit this new evidence on Goku’s behalf is an interesting claim, but lets take a brief look at the evidence revolving around the ki barrier.
    -
    does it exist? yes. as they say it can stop ki attacks, and stops rocks from hurting him.
    -
    but what is it exactly?
    -
    water still makes it wet, and lava can melt it.
    -
    is it simply goku controlling his ki to block attacks or some self-aware shield that forms against danger?
    -
    its hard to guess.
    -
    still since the ki barrier is a faulty device, that blocks fire but not water.
    -
    also we don’t know exactly what genjutsu does.
    -
    motor is correct on the notion that it is yin energy. however does the chakra transmit directly to the brain, or does it travel?
    -
    genjutsu in the past has gotten past many mind blocks, like the sharingan, electric barrier shields of the riakagae, and otehr naruto devices.
    -
    the ki barrier servers to toward to ward off massive energy attacks, by the user amping up his energy in that area to counter the region.
    -
    like when freiza blasted goku with a death beam to the chin. the ki barrier toughened around the chin protecting goku from the blast.
    -
    the ki shield has been infallible www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_OT-ahaYbQ perhaps the funniest instance. of a small rock getting past it. also again water getting him.
    -
    its hard to make the cliam that the ki shield can block genjutsu simply because we know nothing about it, except that it has done things in the past and sometimes it hasn’t.
    -
    however since we don’t know how the ki barrier works and we don’t know how genjutsu relays to the brain. and we are basically making assumptions about both.
    -
    maybe the best course of action is to leave it alone, or bring this to the topia, where we can make a firmer account of what the ki barrier does and how genjutsu gets to the brain?
    -
    can we please do that?

  59. Soulerous March 4, 2013 at 2:27 pm -      #2659

    can we please do that?
    -I seriously doubt it.
    ~
    I thought the ki shile dwas already disprovn, because it is simply the ki within goku’s body making him strong? not a F^cking invisible shield that stops all ki from reaching him.
    -Not disproven, just lacking the evidence to support it being anything other than physical enhancement. Or rather, I was lacking it and so was not convinced. But Mike brings up some good points.
    ~
    So, first. When the smoke clears, we can see Goku with his clothes intact, no more damaged than they were before Frieza started blasting. Did Goku use the Ki barrier technique? No, he did not. Ki field, point.
    ~
    Second. Frieza fires numerous pink beams that explode when they make contact. Then at about 2:26:20, he fires the same beam again and manages to hit Goku. It causes no detonation. Ki field, point.
    ~
    This isn’t speculation so much as following known facts to their logical conclusion. We know ki makes Dragon Ball characters more powerful and allows them to survive great force. The only question is how, and there are two possibilities: It must either literally make their flesh stronger, or it must form a protective field of energy.
    ~
    If it strengthened their flesh, that pink beam attack would have still detonated when it hit Goku and left him unharmed after the explosion. But it didn’t. It was repelled, and he didn’t use the Energy Barrier technique. Also, Goku’s clothes were not destroyed by all those blasts Frieza threw at him. As much as I doubt the anime would allow a naked adult Goku to be shown, we can see clearly his shirt was still there. As a whole, his clothes were damaged relatively lightly. I’d say about as much as Goku was damaged, in fact. Yes, there’s a correlation there. Coincidence? I’m not so sure.
    ~
    And considering there are so many other examples of clothes not being disintegrated by blasts and ki energy attacks being repelled by skin instead of blowing up, I tend to think the ki field/shield is the only possible explanation. Were it not, what could possibly allow Goku to do this kind of thing?
    ~
    He is not making use of the Energy Shield technique, and yet his hands can stop that non-solid energy ball, which is still not exploding. There must be a field of energy around his body. That is the way in which ki increases physical durability, or at least one of the ways. It clearly blocks ki. There are a myriad of other examples of this. To deny it is folly. This ki field that obviously surrounds his body blocks ki, and unless there is a legitimate example of it not doing so, legitimate meaning occasions where Goku absorbs or draws in energy, a non-ki energy is used, or his ki field is simply struck by something more potent are excluded, then we have to assume this means invisible ki as well.
    ~
    itachi’s Genjutsu has never bypassed this kind of ki field (that I’m aware of; am I wrong?) before, and it won’t do so now. Goku slays the ninja.

  60. Storm117 March 4, 2013 at 2:36 pm -      #2660

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=XggF8MTwfu8&list=UUadE9ISujupY08KE785ORGQ&index=16
    or
    www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrjrynmOd7I
    -
    basically this is the entire debate in a nutshell.
    -
    one side aruging video 1 and one side arguing video 2.
    -

  61. Storm117 March 4, 2013 at 2:47 pm -      #2661

    Is anyone else thinking that this ki shield is the same reason why superman’s outfit never rips? i mean his outfit is just normal silk and yet it constanttly takes lazers, missles and everything else.
    -
    there is no technique, there is no mention, there is hinting at this so-called ki-barrier. it is fan-speculation to the highest accounts.
    -
    but in any case i believe solidly that it is irrelavent.
    -
    both motor and max have both pointed out that genjutsu incorates spiritaul energy, that is so tiny that it can slip past the shield, furthermore it could also just got hrough the shield becuase of it being a spiritual essense. King kia was able to slip past it using telepathy.
    -
    ki-shield is irrelavant, illogical, fan-speculation, and non-important to conversation.
    -
    all arguments about can simply be tailored to Goku creating a shield to protect himself from attacks.
    -
    honestly are we really using fan speculation to be the end of this debate?
    -
    if it was refrenced in the manga, anime or heck even GT i would probably buy into it, but its not, it is simply fan-speculation.
    -
    but in any case we have shown that it is irrelavant because if it was a barrier to resist all forms of energy, how does water get into it? how does King kia communicate, how in the world does goku breath? if this shield keeps everything out, goku would suffocate and die!
    -
    if air can get it, so can genjutsu.
    -

  62. Storm117 March 4, 2013 at 2:51 pm -      #2662

    @soul
    it has gotten passed lightning armor.
    -
    higher mind blocks like the sharingan, and has gone through every form of material, even genjutsu blocks. so it has gone through every type of chakra shield.
    -
    so yes the sharingan should go past the ki-barrier like all others.

  63. Dassadec March 4, 2013 at 3:02 pm -      #2663

    @ storm
    That was Amaterasu not a genjutsu passing lighting shield which is not the same at all.

  64. Envoy March 4, 2013 at 3:04 pm -      #2664

    “Is anyone else thinking that this ki shield is the same reason why superman’s outfit never rips? i mean his outfit is just normal silk and yet it constanttly takes lazers, missles and everything else.”
    +
    Superman has an energy field, normally the cape goes first he is still durable under it though.
    =
    “how does King kia communicate”
    +
    He’s never been said to use ki for it IIRC.
    =
    “it has gotten passed lightning armor.”
    +
    Which does what?
    =
    “how in the world does goku breath?”
    +
    WIth his lungs duh.

  65. TheSorrow March 4, 2013 at 3:08 pm -      #2665

    if air can get it, so can genjutsu.
    -
    Chakra and air do not share the same properties, I’ve been over this already.

  66. sadot06 March 4, 2013 at 3:16 pm -      #2666

    Soulerous that entire post is not only speculation, it’s bad speculation, and I thought you were better than this. You’re trying to essentially prove Goku has a passive ki shield, but the way you’re describing it you think he has Superman’s field of invulnerability. And you’re using his clothes as an example to prove its existence. REALLY? In the 2 clips you showed, he has a huge tear on his pants, his jacket is gone and his undershirt is ripped. All his visible skin is also scuffed. He ends the battle with NO SHIRT ON. Also in clip one, we see that he has in fact summoned an actual ki barrier because our vision of Frieza’s barrage isn’t obscured the second time and we see the blasts slamming against a BARRIER that begins several feet outside of Goku’s body. We know that Goku can increase the durability of parts of his body with ki, which explains away tanking the beam to the head as I already pointed out an actual example of a barrier within the same battle. Just Detonation is irrelevant as every ki attack doesn’t have to blow up. You’re using fan speculation. Regardless, that still doesn’t answer how his physical durability can block a non physical attack. Get a new argument. This one just got destroyed.

  67. Storm117 March 4, 2013 at 3:22 pm -      #2667

    @dassedec
    madara puts the raikage in a genjutsu, sorry for not being clear
    -
    @sorrow and envoy
    soul was stating the ki barrier keeps everything from entering, so if it does how is goku breath?
    -
    that was my point.
    -
    @sadot
    exactly! this is entirely fan specualtion.

    @everyone
    if we are going off the fan speculation about goku’s ki, we should just assume that genjutsu teleports to the mind.
    -
    which is a far more likely scenario, and actually fitting, because genjutsu seems to follow that exact pattern.

  68. Soulerous March 4, 2013 at 3:32 pm -      #2668

    there is no technique, there is no mention, there is hinting at this so-called ki-barrier. it is fan-speculation to the highest accounts.
    -Ki shield is just our name for it. You can’t call it fan speculation, it is proven. It is a fact that that Goku’s body stops ki energy.
    ~
    both motor and max have both pointed out that genjutsu incorates spiritaul energy, that is so tiny that it can slip past the shield, furthermore it could also just got hrough the shield becuase of it being a spiritual essense.
    -Those claims are currently what I see no proof for. It can’t get past Goku’s ki because it is a compatible energy and will thus be repelled. If it is a very small amount, it will just be repelled easier.
    ~
    King kia was able to slip past it using telepathy.
    -Yes, again, telepathy is not ki energy. At least, not until we have a reason to believe it is, and even then, King Kai was an ally who it makes sense for Goku to allow to speak with him.
    ~
    ki-shield is irrelavant, illogical, fan-speculation, and non-important to conversation.
    -No, Goku does have ki energy, and it does repel other ki energy. That is how it acts as a shield. It is not speculation at all, and it is entirely relevant since it renders Goku immune to the affects of Genjutsu.
    ~
    but in any case we have shown that it is irrelavant because if it was a barrier to resist all forms of energy, how does water get into it?
    -Ki energy, not water. Ki.
    ~
    At this point, I feel this is all extremely simple. Goku has ki and it acts as a shield because it repels, deflects, or otherwise blocks ki. This is not speculation at all. It is fact and it is inarguable. The only thing that can change this is an instance of known ki energy of low potency passing through Goku’s ki field without him purposefully absorbing it.
    ~
    Now let me ask this: Does the chakra of Naruto characters block other chakra like a barrier?

  69. Motor314 March 4, 2013 at 3:48 pm -      #2669

    @soul
    except every single claim you have claimed can simply be Goku deflecting the projectiles with his ki. it is utter speculation and ludricousy that the ki does it on its own.
    -
    everything is speculation. and it is very much certian that goku uses ki for telepathy, becuase he doesn’t have any pyshic powers.
    -
    everything we are doing right now is speculating, no facts, no evidence, its all interpetating.
    -
    does genjutsu do this? does the ki barrier do this? is telepathy created by ki like genjutsu is?
    -
    all these things have no manga/anime/author sources. no evidence in the slightests.
    -
    in any case naruto characters probably have the same thing, and since naruto characters can tank c4 exlposions point blank, we al can assume naruto characters can have ki barriers. the 4 tials form certainly does. and so does killer b.
    -
    genjutsu can go through naruto’s bijuu shielding, which can tank massive explosiions, it even kept a bijuu darma in its hands.
    -
    so if Genjutsu can slip through NAruto’s and Killer B’s chakra shield that can tank massive mountian busting attacks. genjutsu can slip past goku’s shield
    -
    can this finnaly end this debate? please.
    -

  70. Soulerous March 4, 2013 at 3:48 pm -      #2670

    @sadot06- It is apparent to me that you do not understand the argument to begin with, so let me try to explain it again. I’m not even speculating anymore. I’m not describing Superman’s field of invulnerability. Who cares about the physical durability part? It’s stronger flesh, it’s a shield, whatever. It doesn’t matter at all, because we already know he’s super durable. That was the speculation I was voicing, that was my thinking about the possibility of Goku’s ki stopping physical damage instead of just durable flesh doing it. But we need to separate normal damage from ki.
    ~
    The definitive part is that Goku has ki, life energy, in his body. And it stops other ki. I do not understand your obsession with the Ki Barrier, but it is truly irrelevant.
    ~
    Does everyone understand that? That simple fact? That the ki in Goku’s body stops other ki? That’s all I’m trying to say right now. I regret that it seemed so complicated in the beginning, but I just barely started learning about this.

  71. Motor314 March 4, 2013 at 3:58 pm -      #2671

    @soul
    if itachi’s genjutsu can slip past the tialed beast cloak which can litterally tank mountain blasts, why should it have any trouble slipping past goku’s ki

  72. Soulerous March 4, 2013 at 4:08 pm -      #2672

    can this finnaly end this debate? please.
    -Don’t be so eager. There’s nothing wrong with continuing this debate until it is finished.
    ~
    except every single claim you have claimed can simply be Goku deflecting the projectiles with his ki. it is utter speculation and ludricousy that the ki does it on its own.
    -Yes. He’s using his ki to block other ki. That is what happens. Thus, Genjutsu will not work because the chakra will be blocked.
    ~
    everything we are doing right now is speculating, no facts, no evidence, its all interpetating.
    -No, two of the videos I posted showed how Goku’s ki blocks other ki. The other one was regarding his clothes, and that was the speculation. That it protects his clothes.
    ~
    It baffles me that such a trivial piece of speculation would be targeted so much. Why bother? Protection from physical harm does nothing to protect from chakra invasion. It doesn’t matter if it’s his body or an invisible field, so why are we arguing about this at all? It is so very unproductive. This is why I value understanding so much. Learning to recognize the important arguments is something everyone should do, because it saves a lot of time and boosts productivity.
    ~
    so if Genjutsu can slip through NAruto’s and Killer B’s chakra shield that can tank massive mountian busting attacks. genjutsu can slip past goku’s shield
    -No! Good grief, man, I know you are smart, so please understand this. Goku’s ki blocks other ki, and that means chakra too. If Naruto has a shield that can tank mounatin-busting attacks, that’s all well and fine, but it has nothing to do with shields against ki/chakra energy, which is what Goku does have.
    ~
    Any more questions?

  73. sadot06 March 4, 2013 at 4:08 pm -      #2673

    You were speculating, and I called you out on it, and I’m not obsessing over ki barriers, that was YOU that kept injecting it into the debate. I merely pointed out the vast amount of flaws in your argument. Saying I don’t understand is just a way to dodge when you have nothing.

    Now on to your latest crock. We can’t separate normal damage from ki damage because the kind of damage you’re talking about isn’t unique. When ki is turned into a destructive projectile and hits Goku, it tears his clothes, scuffs him up, at worse, tears right through him. All “normal damage” during a dbz fight.

    Ki in Goku’s body doesn’t stop anything on its own. Goku can channel ki and create a barrier around his body to stop physical projectiles, and he can channel ki to increase his physical, strength, speed, and durability. This is what we know based on EVIDENCE. Now prove that any of that has anything to do with blocking genjutsu.

  74. sadot06 March 4, 2013 at 4:11 pm -      #2674

    “If Naruto has a shield that can tank mounatin-busting attacks, that’s all well and fine, but it has nothing to do with shields against ki/chakra energy, which is what Goku does have.”

    But Naruto’s using chakra to shield himself and the mountain busting attacks he’s talking about use chakra. You’re being inconsistent in your arguments.

  75. TheSorrow March 4, 2013 at 4:14 pm -      #2675

    Ki in Goku’s body doesn’t stop anything on its own.
    -
    I beg to differ: www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzN6H3XnS0k 0:44 onward.

  76. Motor314 March 4, 2013 at 4:15 pm -      #2676

    @soul
    for heavens sake, Itachi’s gnejutsu goes through F6cking genjutsu blocks, which is take a second to think about this one.
    -
    guess what it is?
    -
    chakra?
    -
    yes!
    -
    if ITachi’s can tear through those with ease why should, i am being serious why shouldn’t it go through gokus?
    -
    i mean this is just going crazy.
    -
    first goku has a invisible shield that protect him from everything in the universe. then since that doesn’t work, no ki is allows into his body since his ki is to strong.
    -
    i mean have you ever watched dbz?
    -
    Goku constantly cries, “lend me your energy!”
    -
    and ki=energy.
    -
    that energy sinks right through this invisible ki shield and into goku.
    -
    i don’t care if thier are different kinds of ki. genjutsu is a form of spirtual energy there for it can slip by.
    -
    of course i am being impatient, this is just silly to the point of injustice.
    -
    /facepalm

  77. Dr. Doctor March 4, 2013 at 4:21 pm -      #2677

    “Goku constantly cries, “lend me your energy!””
    …when using the Spirit Bomb attack. He doesn’t need anyone else’s energy for any of his other attacks, IIRC.

  78. sadot06 March 4, 2013 at 4:23 pm -      #2678

    Ki in Goku’s body doesn’t stop anything on its own.
    -
    I beg to differ: www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzN6H3XnS0k 0:44 onward.

    Wrong. So I think you misunderstood what I was saying. I was responding to soul who seemed to be implying that Goku’s Ki was sentient and protects him from harm automatically. All that clip does is validate what I said in context.

  79. Soulerous March 4, 2013 at 4:26 pm -      #2679

    You were speculating, and I called you out on it
    -You are absolutely right. I was speculating about the physical attributes of Goku’s ki field. I continue to lack understanding as to why this is so important to you however, as it has nothing to do with who wins the match. If I wasted time talking about it, I’m sorry. But I’m not the one wasting time on it now.
    ~
    I’m not obsessing over ki barriers, that was YOU that kept injecting it into the debate.
    -Almost every time I mentioned it was because you were arguing with it as an example, like when you said The only thing established is that some DBZ characters have the ability to summon a ki barrier that can deflect projectiles. There is no proof that Goku can protect is mind from non physical intrusion. If there was a barrier constantly around Goku protecting him from harm, there would actually be evidence of it.
    -And that was part of the whole argument about Goku’s ki forming, as you say, a sort of field of invulnerability, an argument that I certainly got into. And it was an interesting one. But it never had anything to do with blocking ki, and by the way, there is plenty to suggest Goku can protect his mind from non-physical intrusion, if that intrusion is based on ki or chakra.
    ~
    Now on to your latest crock. We can’t separate normal damage from ki damage because the kind of damage you’re talking about isn’t unique.
    -Crock? No, you misunderstand once again. When I said we should separate physical damage from ki, I was talking about the catalyst, not physical damage vs mental damage or something. As in, Goku’s body withstands blows from fists and blasts from energy projectiles while his ki actually stops the energy projectiles and allows him to push it or swat it away. it forms a barrier against ki, not any other physical thing.
    ~
    This is what we know based on EVIDENCE. Now prove that any of that has anything to do with blocking genjutsu.
    -Genjutsu functions with chakra, right? Goku can block chakra. See what I’m saying?

  80. sadot06 March 4, 2013 at 4:32 pm -      #2680

    The energy for the spirit is gathered from water, grass, animals, people, etc and put into a ball above him. It doesn’t go into his body.

  81. Dassadec March 4, 2013 at 4:33 pm -      #2681

    If there is an instance where a byakugan user with it activated gets caught in genjutsu it may lend credence to Goku not sensing / seeing Itachis chakra

  82. sadot06 March 4, 2013 at 4:35 pm -      #2682

    “Genjutsu functions with chakra, right? Goku can block chakra. See what I’m saying?”

    I see you’re making an association fallacy. That’s about it

  83. Soulerous March 4, 2013 at 4:38 pm -      #2683

    I see you’re making an association fallacy.
    -Would you please tell me what this association fallacy is? It would behoove me to know.

  84. Dassadec March 4, 2013 at 4:44 pm -      #2684

    That’s not an association fallacy because of elemental comparability

  85. Soulerous March 4, 2013 at 4:51 pm -      #2685

    Shhh, I want him to tell me.

  86. The King of Games March 4, 2013 at 4:54 pm -      #2686

    The Spirit Bomb does not gather energy from water. It gathers energy from living things becasue that’s what it uses life enery. Last I checked water isn;t a living thing. Also the Spirit Bomb can place the energy in his body in fact that’s how he originally was taught how to use it if you remember when he fought Vegeta. He later decided to keep the energy seperate from his body like in his fight with Freeza abd Kid Buu.

  87. sadot06 March 4, 2013 at 5:05 pm -      #2687

    Here is your argument.

    1. Goku is seen blocking an attack with a shield.
    2. The shield is made of ki, the attack was created using ki.

    Therefore, Goku can block anything with ki as its origin. Completely wrong.

    Let’s continue.

    Ninjutsu is the Naruto equivalent of using Ki blasts, to oversimplify since there are so many more ways to use ninjutsu than creating a projectile. When creating a ninjutsu, the two methods of manipulating chakra are referred to as shape transformation and nature transformation: Shape transformation deals with controlling the form, movement, and potency of chakra. Nature transformation usually deals with changing the physical properties of chakra into an element. It falls under the category of Yang Release, which is physical energy. Genjutsu is a completely different category. It falls under Yin Release which is the spiritual energy that governs imagination, and allows one to create form out of nothing. Thus the same defense against ninjutsu like a fire style or rasengan, physical attacks, that hit the body, can’t’ be applied to hypnosis and illusions.

  88. sadot06 March 4, 2013 at 5:07 pm -      #2688

    “The Spirit Bomb does not gather energy from water. It gathers energy from living things becasue that’s what it uses life enery. Last I checked water isn;t a living thing. Also the Spirit Bomb can place the energy in his body in fact that’s how he originally was taught how to use it if you remember when he fought Vegeta. He later decided to keep the energy seperate from his body like in his fight with Freeza abd Kid Buu.”

    Perhaps the energy coming from the water was the fish then

  89. ptaine March 4, 2013 at 5:13 pm -      #2689

    so you’re arguing that Ki and Chakra are not the same thing then?

  90. TheSorrow March 4, 2013 at 5:15 pm -      #2690

    He is arguing that the Ki Barrier falls under the classification of physical energy and not spiritual.

  91. ptaine March 4, 2013 at 5:22 pm -      #2691

    ”He is arguing that the Ki Barrier falls under the classification of physical energy and not spiritual.”
    .
    I’m not entirely sure I understand the distinction (well from what I was asking anyway). If the spiritual side and the physical side accomplish things using Chakra, and Ki and Chakra are equal, then there isn’t a difference unless Ki and Chakra are not equal.

  92. Soulerous March 4, 2013 at 5:28 pm -      #2692

    Yes. And I feel like any concerns with association fallacies should have been settled long before now. I’ve been arguing under the belief that they are completely compatible, because that’s what was said when I joined.

  93. TheSorrow March 4, 2013 at 5:31 pm -      #2693

    They are completely compatible.

  94. Motor314 March 4, 2013 at 5:33 pm -      #2694

    @ptaine
    what i think Sadot and sorrow is saying, is like how there are different kinds of ki, there are different kinds of chakra.
    -
    the ki that supresses other ki is a like a ninjutsu, like a charka cloak, a rasengan or a kamemhema.
    -
    mean while the genjutsu apllies a different kind of chakra the working like the ki that goku uses to read minds. a type of ki that slips through other’s ki shields.
    -
    i believe that is it.

  95. sadot06 March 4, 2013 at 5:49 pm -      #2695

    Understand that in both universes, their life force source isn’t manifested the same way every time just because the power source is the same or similar.

    In Naruto, a fire ball jutsu is very different from a clone jutsu, or Space-Time-Ninjutsu, despite them drawing from the same source and falling under the same broad category of physical energy manipulation.

    In DBZ, a kamehama does not function the same as a destructo disk, Guldo’s time freeze and paralysis, or Ginyu’s body swap. Same with the telepathy used throughout the series and Roshi’s hypnosis. Plus whatever Buu’s chocolate beam is. Then there is the magic element, which isn’t really explained, but it has to have a source. All these techniques are energy manipulation, but as you can see, they don’t all function the same just because of the source.

  96. ptaine March 4, 2013 at 5:51 pm -      #2696

    ”what i think Sadot and sorrow is saying, is like how there are different kinds of ki, there are different kinds of chakra”
    .
    Well therein lies a key part of the problem for me. I was under the impression the Ki was Ki, Chakra was Chakra and they were equal. What Sadot appeared to be arguing to me was applying Narutoverse rules to show how Chakra and Ki were different because there are different applications of Chakra.

  97. Alucard March 4, 2013 at 5:51 pm -      #2697

    Aren’t they all just manipulated Ki to make differne effects and shapes?

  98. Soulerous March 4, 2013 at 6:05 pm -      #2698

    The Kamehameha Wave is pure ki energy gathered and expelled from the hands. I was under the impression that all the other Dragon Ball energy attacks worked on the same principle, because I’ve seen no evidence that there are different types of ki. I thought it just takes different forms.
    ~
    Aren’t they all just manipulated Ki to make differne effects and shapes?
    -Yeah, what tells us otherwise?
    ~
    What Sadot appeared to be arguing to me was applying Narutoverse rules to show how Chakra and Ki were different because there are different applications of Chakra.
    -The best equivalent I can come up with is the Force. If a Jedi uses a force push and the foe blocks the Force itself, shouldn’t it work on a mind trick as well? Or is that a faulty example?

  99. sadot06 March 4, 2013 at 6:10 pm -      #2699

    “The best equivalent I can come up with is the Force. If a Jedi uses a force push and the foe blocks the Force itself, shouldn’t it work on a mind trick as well? Or is that a faulty example?”

    Pretty sure that wouldn’t work.

  100. sadot06 March 4, 2013 at 6:13 pm -      #2700

    And isn’t magic in the DBZ universe a different kind of ki? It’s energy manipulation, regardless of what you call it.

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