arrow4,501 Comments
  1. hellatus
    Mar 07 - 4:49 am

    Uhm
    Goku can destroy planets i think its pretty obvious he will win

    i rly wanna be in the side of itachi though but he loses

  2. Matapiojo
    Mar 07 - 10:24 am

    Im not so sure it is so cut-and-dry.

    Sure, Goku could blast itachi away in many nuber of ways, but that does not give him an instant win. Itachi has some incredible techniques on his side, some of which have apparently either no limits in power, or their true strength has yet to be revealed.

    His eye techniques are completely cripling.

    One of them (Tsukuyomi = God of the Moon – nneveldeclub.lapunk.hu/tarhely/nneveldeclub/kepek/tsukuyomi.jpg ) could even trap Goku in a paralel dimenssion of Itachi’s creation where time seems to be endless. He has trapped others there, torturing his victims for what seems to be hundreds of years while only a fw seconds pass in the “real” world.

    Another (Amaterasu = God of the Sun – img524.imageshack.us/img524/5627/16yw8.jpg ) is to cast a black flame that thoroughly burns any material and never misses its intended target.

    Finaly, there is a massive summoned being ( Susanoo = God of the Storm – images1.wikia.nocookie.net/naruto/images/thumb/b/b4/Sasun'ox.JPG/578px-Sasun'ox.JPG ) that shields Itachi from all attacks and has a sword capable of cutting through anything.

    Then theres the fact that he can create complex illusions that are capable of altering reality for the victim. Making Goku kill himself is not out of the question here.

    Like I said, Itachi has not displayed an ability to destroy planets, but he is far from defenseless. I trully believe he is capable of neutralizing Goku indefinitley, or even kill him.

  3. EnigmaJ
    Mar 07 - 8:18 pm

    I guess Itaci COULD hurt Goku, but chances are, Goku will kill kill kim before he gets a chance to do anything ( being faster then sound ofcourse )

  4. hellatus
    Mar 07 - 8:52 pm

    he is very fast and strong but the moment he makes a wrong move and gets hit by goku’s atk he is screwed

  5. cyborg pirate ninja jesus
    Mar 08 - 3:11 am

    instant transmission kamehameha,nuff sed

  6. Matapiojo
    Mar 08 - 10:27 am

    “instant transmission kamehameha,nuff sed”

    The nin from the Naruto universe have far more survival tricks up their sleeves than your average ninja from other universes. Itachi himself has shown an incredible ability of making copied of himself that detonate when killed.

    There is a very high probability that Goku attacks one said copy. Your simplistic comment was humorous, at best, but nowhere near accurate.

  7. EnigmaJ
    Mar 08 - 1:25 pm

    But, what would such a weak explosion do to Goku, who takes ki shots like nothing.

    Ki >>> Chakra

  8. EnigmaJ
    Mar 08 - 1:28 pm

    I ouldnt be suprirsed if some said “Ki is the same as Chakra” just because they are based off the same thing.

    But as we’ve seen Ki is alot more destructive. None of Itachis magic tricks are gonna save him from an explosion with the destructive range of a few cities. Or maybe a punch in the face from a guy whos trained in 10x gravity and beyond?

  9. Matapiojo
    Mar 09 - 8:24 am

    The point of the explossion was not to argue its lethal potency, it was to display an example of Itachi’s skill in deceit. The Ninja could dance circles around Goku for days.

    DBZ in its entirety is a display of mindless muscle. The world of the nin in Naruto is one full of subterfuge, deceit, and resourcefullness. I never claimed that itachi could 1-up Goku in power, but he IS capable of killing the dumb log of a Sayan.

    Like I said, with the aid of his Genjutsu, Itachi making Goku kill himself or any other member of his family/friends is not out of the question. Being trapped and tortured in an eternal Tsukuyomi is as good as blasting an opponent out of existence. What good is being as powerful as Goku is, if he can be lobotomized to being a bumbling idiot with a simple stare?

    Hell, Itachi’s Genjutsu is of such skill and calibre that his victims are still caught in their weaves even without the aid of the Sharingan.

    Goku can IT+attack all he wants, the fact is that he will never know where the true Itachi is unless the ninja wants him to.

  10. joe
    Mar 09 - 1:24 pm

    couldent goku just try to sense itachi’s energy to find the real itachi?

  11. Matapiojo
    Mar 09 - 1:34 pm

    “couldent goku just try to sense itachi’s energy to find the real itachi?”

    One – We go by EnigmaJ’s argument and have Chakra and Ki are incompatible and goku would not know how to read it, or;

    Two – Itachi uses the concealment techniques he knows to keep out of his “radar”. In a world of ninja, do you think that are no others that know these sort of tricks of locating others using their Chakra? Would there not be techniques to hide from those searchies?

    Itachi being one of the most powerful nin ever in Naruto, he has more than enough of such tricks up his sleeve.

  12. Marche
    Mar 09 - 3:00 pm

    im not a big DB fan,but the goku vs itachi fights ive read ends up in gokus favor,just hear me out.

    1) yes,goku is dumber than a rock,but when it comes to combat he is pretty smart

    2) goku can move faster than any of the ninja in naruto,unless he has clones before the match i think he would be taken out.

    now im looking around and does Tsukuyomi attack the mind of the mind?
    i would also like to know if any of his attacks can cause much harm to goku,besides the 3 you have listed.

  13. Matapiojo
    Mar 10 - 9:18 am

    Given Goku’s might, I dont think that anything Itachi has displayed in the series would be damaging to Goku aside from the items I have listed.

    Tsukuyomi – Yes, it attacks the mind. Itachi can make is so it could just be a meeting place, or an absolute brain-rape. It could go for a few moments, to eternity. This would absolutely rape Goku, and no amount of fortitude (nor willpower) could stop this from being so. In that world, Itachi is God.

    Amaterasu – This flame would burn through anything, no matter Goku’s strength. It is also one of the most accurate attacks ever created as it is a blame that bursts out of nowhere onto whatever Itachi might be staring at.

    Both of those abilities would be as instant as Goku’s IT. That advantage of his is moot.

    Susanoo – This is a summon. Out of the three, this is one that might be the “weakest”. Its true power has not been displayed yet, but it was said that it grants absolute protection and can cut through anything. It is an example of a total stalemate. Goku could bob and weave as much as he wants, but he couldnt harm Itachi while this summon is up. One hit from the sword, and it will be over for the Sayan.

    Aside from those three, nothing Itachi has would do much if anything at all. However, there is Itachi’s superb Genjutsu. His complex illusions can do just about anything.

    Itachi is also known very well for having his Bunshins up at most all times. He has been caught a few times “unawares” by other attackers, for them to find out that they just killed a Bunshin and are at the mercy of Itachi’s follow-up attack. Such is the way of this sneakiest of nin. Not only that, but his ability to create copies of himself is comparable to the IT’s speed.

    Contrary to most oponents that are thrown at Goku, Itachi would be one of the deadliest, yet the match would be far from being determined by brute strength.

  14. monokid
    Mar 16 - 8:13 am

    Itachi’s genjustu’s would have no effect on Goku because genjustu’s uses chakra in the victim’s body to create illusions, since Goku has no chakra he can not be affected by them.

  15. Matapiojo
    Mar 16 - 10:10 am

    That is parting from the concept that Chakra and Ki are not one and the same, something that is still HIGHLY arguable. I am currently bussy, but I will come back with my reference and proof that these two forces are indeed the same.

  16. ryan
    Mar 19 - 6:41 am

    well goku as so man transformations and super speed but itachi as the tukioymi mode to slow down time plus the sharingan is a match for goku

  17. unfortunategokufan
    Mar 23 - 12:05 pm

    ive been playing this out in my head having read all sides. even with itachis abilities being as quick as the instant transmission, the dbz universe transcends the living world. goku wouldnt just teleport out of the way, he could teleport to the otherworld, or to an entirely new planet, the second he sensed the move coming. this being so, he could even take itachi with him to a place he couldnt survive.

    he never would, given his pure-hearted nature, but if he really felt the world was threatened, he would do all he could. solar flare to rape itachis eyes, then IT for a quick poking of them (gokus humorous style), followed by an instant transmission into the atmosphere, and a kamehameha into the sun, while itachi is blind and crying his little black emo flames.

  18. marche
    Mar 23 - 3:19 pm

    actually goku needs to lock on to ki to teleport long distances.

  19. unfortunategokufan
    Mar 23 - 7:43 pm

    well, first, what universe will they be fighting in, narutos world or dbz world?

    if dbz, he knows ki of long distances, and can follow through with this.

    if in narutos world, hed lack long distance instant transmission, but could still dodge everything thrown at him when he sensed it coming. hes just too fast. even if itachis speed matched bullets, even raditz could probably dodge everything.

    and even if faster, a solar flare would be all he needed to land a finishing blow.

  20. demongrave
    Apr 07 - 6:41 am

    that plus what those on Itachi’s side forget that Itachi can’t use his eye abilities that much cause everytime he does he loses his vision and it drains alot of his power. So if he were misjudge Goku or Goku would simply dodge the attacks, cause there’s no doubt in my mind that Goku is way too fast for Itachi to keep up with. Anyway Itachi would have only about one shot with his eye abilities, if he screws that up then he’s done for. Also Goku could probably flick Itachi with his little finger and Itachi goes smashing into a mountain.

  21. allgood
    May 07 - 11:21 pm

    their is one thing tho itachi has mastered the genjutsu thro his whole body he traped naruto after just looking at his ring goku cant get away from it the second goku looks at him the battle is already done and itachi wins but demongrave is right itachi dose not have long he is beat near the end of his life and realy dosnt have the will to fight any more but if were talking prime vs prime itachi wins the second goku lays his eyes on itachi

  22. demongrave
    May 11 - 8:36 am

    I admit that Itachi’s genjutsu is powerful, and it causes extreme pain, but Goku can take tremendous amounts of pain without giving up and the only time he’s ever been really killed is when he was blown into dust. Givin Itachi’s power I highly doubt that he could do that to Goku. And if you try to mention that the genjutsu would destroy Goku’s mind well that’s not true either. Cause Goku may act like a fool, but he has an extremely strong will and won’t crack under Itachi’s genjutsu. So even if Itachi put Goku in his genjutsu Goku would hold out until Itachi can’t hold onto the illusion any more then Goku would flick Itachi into a mountain.

  23. Matapiojo
    May 11 - 10:21 am

    @demongrave

    How dense can you be?

    Genjutsu’s power is not in dealing pain, it is in altering reality according to the target’s perception. It is well within Itachi’s power to drive Goku mad. He could create such an elaborate illusion that Goku could fight to the point of exhaustion without any effort at all. Not only that, Goku might wake up to find he buthcered all his friends and family instead of the countless “bad guys” he thought he was killing while under the effects of the illusion.

    Itachi can crate such an elaborate lie that Goku could indeed commit suicide simply because he will beleive himself to be a danger to everyone else.

    The sky is the limit for Itachi’s technique. Strong will or not, Goku may never even know he IS trapped in a Genjutsu.

  24. demongrave
    May 12 - 8:16 am

    OK, I’ll give you that. But for the exhaustion thing Itachi would lose hold of the illusion before Goku tired. I mean Itachi could only hold the illusion on Kakashi for a few seconds before he prctically colapsed from exhaustion. Then Goku wouldn’t attack his family even if he thought they were enemies . Reason, because Goku can sense Ki and each person has a different Ki so even if they looked like his enemies he wouldn’t fight them because he would sense their different Kis. So that illusion is defeated.

    Next please.

    ((As a side note. Matapiojo, I’m enjoying this alot. You make this a more interesting debate than alot of others I’ve been in. You’re good.))

  25. Iruga
    Jun 28 - 12:58 pm

    Goku can use the Tien technique he use vs great ape vegeta and Itachi can’t see and after this technique it’s why goku win!!!

  26. hitman8
    Jul 03 - 5:35 pm

    goku can move faster than the speed of light in ss4. and a kemehemeha could just blow up what ever planet their on so goku for the win

  27. marche
    Jul 03 - 6:59 pm

    ss4 is non canon.
    not that it matters,in ssj1 he can move faster than naruto characters.

  28. What?
    Jul 10 - 4:14 pm

    It’s kind of funny how everyone is saying Goku can destroy planets so he can destroy Itachi. Has anyone realized Itachi can just block Goku’s explosions with Susano’o? Susano’o has the mirror of Yata (I think that is what it is called) which can block anything, so Goku’s explosions are pretty much rendered useless. Another point is that Itachi can burn through Goku’s Kamehameha thing with Amaterasu, or through Goku himself. I think people aren’t really using logic here, and they are SERIOUSLY underestimating Itachi. Yeah, Goku is fast, and super strong, but his intelligence and planning is far inferior to Itachi’s. As far as I can tell, Goku’s fighting style is pretty straightforward, and Itachi’s is the polar opposite. Itachi would probably just cast a genjutsu on Goku before the battle started anyway. Does anyone remember that technique Itachi used on Deidara? Deidara was about to blow himself up without even knowing it! I can see Goku doing the same. I’m not saying Goku isn’t strong or anything, he kicks major butt, but against Itachi, he just can’t compete. I understand most people are supporting Goku, but I have to say Itachi wins this fight. Itachi has too many awesome jutsu at his disposal.

    Goku= Brute
    Itachi= Genius

    P.S. We never really saw how strong Itachi really was in the first place, because he could defeat so many people with ease, and he wasn’t trying to win the fight with Sasuke. He could have had other techniques we never had the chance to see, so there.

  29. Marche
    Jul 10 - 7:32 pm

    Goku has better speed feats than itachi,he gets in the first hit before itachi can summon anything.

    People also seem to not be able to comprehend a No-lmits fallacy,it can’t reflect EVERY attack thrown at it.

    As for Amaterasu,hotter than the sun is a huge hyperbole,if it was really that hot it would have killed anybody in naruto who got hit,which people have survived so its not that powerful.
    Lastly,Goku isn’t as stupid when it comes to combat.
    Warp Kamehameha anyone?

  30. merc
    Aug 20 - 6:38 pm

    1. goku is faster than anyone and everyone in naruto combine hence he can run behind itachi faster than itachi brain nerves tell his body wat to do.
    2. goku’s IT is one of the best teletorations in anime etc… if goku was standing on one side of the universe he can teleport to the other side in a instant givin he has a lifeform to sense.
    3.we already know who is stronger so im not going there
    4.itachi amaterasu is good and is the only thing that can hurt goku but remenber goku is infinaly faster than itachis eyes can move and the sharingan cant track anyone going that faster plus goku could also but up a barrier i go believe he has the power to do that.
    5. itachis susanoo is way too overhyper because yes its good in naruto but it cant block anything including outside its verse it itachi got hit with a planet buster ki blast susanoo will not help him.
    6. itachi cant make shadow clones before a fight starts so if he did make a shadow clone goku will see him making one and how effective with them exploding in gokus face be if the only thing that will hurt goku is planet destroying attacks
    7. goku is dumber than a bag of brinks but his mind is more powerful than the naruto cast goku can read thoughts sense ur actions before u thinkabout them can move read minds telekentic thats like prof Xavier or jean grey right there.
    8. in naruto the writters arnt going to make itachi able to move planets or destroy a galaxy its not ment for that so goku is strong enough to take on all the tailed beast at once cant see anyone in naruto doing that.
    9. goku has faceed ppl who destorys cites to worlds to solor systems to galaxies to universes. he even beat someone who can destroy heaven and hell alike can anyone in naruto do that.
    10.im pretty sure itachi is smart and if goku raises his energy to shake the world and his power to be felt throughtout the entire universe…safe to say itachi wont even want to fight him

    i like naruto but dbz sereis will always be a classic and will be remember long after naruto endz

  31. ss
    Aug 21 - 11:44 am

    you guyes are depicting goku as ruthless enough to kill itachi in an instant, that is in correct, as shown in……every fight hes been in he give the opponent plenty of time to give up, itachi would take advantage of that and capture goku in an illusion that would seriously mess him up, giving itachi plenty of prep timw for the real fight.or he could transport him to another dimension and stab him like a million times while hes depowered, leaving seriously woulded if not dead(and before you say it didnt kill kakashi, he didnt want to kill kakashi)

  32. Asger
    Aug 21 - 11:59 am

    This is a fictional fight to the death SS. Morality is unimportant in these debates.

  33. AkumaTh
    Aug 21 - 12:10 pm

    @Asger: Sure it does. If they aren’t fighting like they supposed to, then they aren’t the guys fighting.

    And even though I dislike him, I have to go with Goku. He has survived a lot of tough situations so he could possibly survive the tortures Itachi and his eyes can do. Heroes do tend to have this “never give up” quality.

  34. Cpt Olimar
    Aug 21 - 1:17 pm

    if Vegeta was in Goku’s place here, I would give it to him in an instant, his ruthlessness and cunning (relative to his universe) with the uber OP-ness of DBZ would give him the tools to win imo. But Goku? Well, if the planet they were fighting on had no other “people” and Goku knew this (I’d say a neutral battlefield might alow this) he might just destroy it but… I think Vegeta would definitely win this Goku… meh I personally hope both these combatants die as do the shows they come from.

  35. Zeppher
    Aug 24 - 5:52 pm

    Are you crazy as MUCh as i watched DBZ when I was younger there is know way GOku can beat Itachi He is in a way different league I mean he could look at Goku using Amatarasu with that black fire which will countinue to burn Goku until he’s a crisp or use an illusion technique just to screw his mind up and if you all know Goku isn’t the smartest person ever he will lose this Itachi at his prime would end this with susano and that energy sword move plus he has sherigon which can predict /anticpate/ dodge/ copy attacks I can’t see how Itachi can lose this.

  36. Zeppher
    Aug 24 - 6:02 pm

    Goku is awesome but him beating itachi there is just no way he is too powerful Itachi will pwn him with mangeikyu and make him kill himself just like he almost like he did with deidara and therefore with that logic I nominate Itachi for BankGambling Award.

  37. Marche
    Aug 24 - 6:10 pm

    Goku would burn to a crisp if he just let himself burn.
    Goku tends to go into hand-to-hand,so i can see itachi go flying.

    Tsukuyomi is basically his only saving grace.

  38. cyborg pirate ninja jesus
    Aug 24 - 7:09 pm

    @ zeppher

    that was possibly the biggest load of jibberish i have ever seen EVER!!!!

  39. Belisaurius
    Aug 24 - 7:25 pm

    Itachi just needs goku to see him. First comes the minor genjutsu, something that throws off is coordination or eyesight. Perhapse something that makes the whole world seem to spin or maybe just make itachi seem to be 3 ft to the left of where he realy is. Something subtle and crippling at the same time. Then, goku makes eye contact, something innoccuous, perhapse because Itachi taunted him. Then, Tsukiyomi.

    “For the next 72 hours, you will kill everyone important to you.”

    Goku is going to wish for death after that.

  40. JR
    Aug 26 - 1:27 pm

    Sin lugar a dudas Itachi seria el ganador. Normalmente las peleas comienzan frente a frente, tiempo suficiente para que el Uchiha ejecutara sus técnicas mentales ante el débil de Goku, que con toda su fortaleza fisica no seria para nada rival pues no tendria tiempo de ejecutar su propias tecnicas, por ejemplo seria arrastrado a otra dimension totalmente controlada por Itachi, donde las tecnicas de Goku serian totalmente neutralizadas. Aun si Goku tuviera oportunidad o tiempo de ejecutar algo, el ojo Sharingan es capaz de adivinar y copiar las tecnicas de Goku al instante, aunado a que Itachi podria crear clones. Ganador por mucho Itachi. Y cualquier persona del clan Uchiha podria ganarle a Goku… Sasuke y ni se diga de Madara Uchiha.

  41. Zeppher
    Aug 26 - 9:26 pm

    Itachi is just to baddass to lose I mean that techinique with the energy sword it can cut through anything so losing is out of the question for goku Itachi too strong , just give it up Itachi wins

  42. DBZ FAN
    Sep 07 - 8:47 pm

    first off everyone is saying goku’s speed is faster than any character in the naruto show hahahah cmon now madara was stated to be faster than instant transmition and faster then light himself…but thats madara thats a different character (most badass anime character ever by the way)

    im almost positive if you threw these two guys in a arena first,,,,, the first time they ever see each other without not knowing what the other person can do itachi would easily win…i can almost see that happening cause …goku being the good hearted person he is ..isnt just gonna attack like a bad person THATS A FACT…he would have to say something to itachi and definetly stare at him…thus having itachi use genjutsu in an instant brain raping his mind hahah…not saying goku aint nothing but if he dont have the sharingan all attack are useless before the sharingan
    brute force dont win fights people, strength dont win fights… the smart fighters do…look at real life boxin(an example)… what attack can goku do before susanoo? what can he do to escape the genjutsu? amateratsu would burn his blonde hari off in a instant…its a logical fight if someone that really knows how to measure the skill of a character should know…and by the way im a DBZ fan all day everyday….but thats my pick… itachi in a couple of seconds once he casts his genjutsu on goku…about 3 episodes if he dont cast it hahahah
    like someone said up there

    GOKU=brute
    ITACHI=genious

  43. cyborg pirate ninja jesus
    Sep 23 - 2:04 am

    if it is a neutral battlefield i assume the place would have no people otherwise itachi could use them as shield

    and if there is no people whats stopping goku from blowing the shit out of the planet

  44. Richarde
    Oct 03 - 3:31 am

    dude Goku can read minds and the Ginyu force try to hurt him and they went right through him… I mean..

  45. Richarde
    Oct 03 - 3:32 am

    goku reads minds he already knows he’s gonna win that’s why he does all that stuff lol.. actually Itachi wouldn’t be dumb and would go get dragon balls though..

  46. Richarde
    Oct 03 - 3:34 am

    Itachi would beat krillin though :P LOL

  47. churrito
    Oct 23 - 3:30 am

    first of all u losers..no dumb ass naruto character eye technice can trap or seal goku, goku has everlasting energy compared to naruto characters..and thats including all the tailed beast monsters.. he would easlly brake out of any kind of demention or trans with his power by just blowing the sharingans users head off . this is a fact!!!! not only that goku travel back and fourth from heaven to hell..madara can just go anywhere on earth..how kooolll..j/k
    goku can easlly save all of the ninja countrys from war by turning super sayon 4 ape and blowing all the countrys ,and not only the hole intire ninja planet.. but its galaxy`s and space time and exsistence.. GOKU #1

  48. songoku 92
    Oct 30 - 11:11 pm

    ok im goin with goku on this alot of people say that itachi can do is little eye thing and there but think about this once goku finds out about this he can just power up just think when he powers up he makes explosions the same thing naruto did to escape itachis eye but once thats over goku can just use solar flare itachi wont know whats that blind then goku will know that he does not got to look at him he just uses his senses to fight him but then once itachis eyes go down he is a sitting duck goku kamehameha wave his face done or like i said he powers up escapes the eye than goes to the air and goes ssj3 itachi will just look at him dragon fist of kamehameha wave even is itachi clones him self goku can just hear him with the little less noise and he is sown or alot more goku can just do but goku can escape the eyes by alot of things powers up/transforms to ssj 1 2 3 4 or even make a clone by the speed he haves like he does to master roshi when he was a kid he cloned him self with just speed alone and he was just a kid now he is all grown up now thing

  49. VongolaUchiha10
    Dec 24 - 9:54 am

    well, i dont think so, because Shadow Clones are clones with the same Chakra splitted among them, so ecery clone has the same chakra as Itachi, and even if Goku Notices this, it would be a Genjutsu, in the first moment Itachi looks at Goku´s eyes the victory is for the Ninja, all beacause BRAIN>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>MUSCLES

  50. Whacko
    Jan 12 - 10:10 am

    Okay, Itachi wins. Goku is a powerhouse and can rip apart a lot of things, but the ninja easily win.

    Fight start:

    Goku looks at Itachi and thinks wow, this guy has a damn low ki level, he can’t possibly fight me? Then he’ll do all in his power to make Itachi give up. By that time Itachi has moved. If you look at one of his moving body parts, you’ll get caught in his illusions. Then, while goku is completely lost, Itachi unleashes his Mangekyo Sharingan by using Tsukyomi on Goku (keeps him locked in a seperate dimension inside the ninjas head, where Itachi can use any effect. Can’t kill in there though, most likely). In the real world, Itachi uses Amaterasu or Susanoo and ends it. No matter how tough you are, the black flames of Amaterasu will eventually burn through you, while the Susanoo can cut open anything and imprison souls and the like. Both will end Goku.

    As many others have stated by now, a genius will own a brute. Especially a genius with this kind of arsenal vs a brute with so little knowledge on tackling mental assault.

  51. EnigmaJ
    Jan 13 - 6:06 pm

    “Then, while goku is completely lost, Itachi unleashes his Mangekyo Sharingan by using Tsukyomi on Goku (keeps him locked in a seperate dimension inside the ninjas head, where Itachi can use any effect. Can’t kill in there though, most likely). In the real world, Itachi uses Amaterasu or Susanoo and ends it.”

    Itachi cannot do this. If Itachi uses Tsukyomi-

    1) He’ll come out of it exhausted.

    2) When Itachi uses Tsukoymi, it’s not a magical enchantment that paralyzes the enemy for several days. It actually only lasts about two seconds. Itachi would be able to “torture” Goku for days in that world, but he wouldn’t be able to do anything else while doing it. Especially considering using either jutsu alone wears him out, he’s not stacking them.

    Equally likely scenario: Goku flies up and nuke the area.

  52. Envoy
    Jan 13 - 6:12 pm

    Goku wins via planet busting!

    /thread

  53. EnigmaJ
    Jan 13 - 6:19 pm

    Not to mention, Goku is a DBZ’er. These are the same DBZ’ers who’s battles tend to encompass the entirety of a planet. These guys can travel from one side of the globe to the other fairly quickly ( hell, Goku is atleast 1000 times faster than sound ). Gotenks, who Goku is superior to, was able to travel around the Earth about eight times in a several moments ( and these were wide arcing circles ). Goku react to fighters just as fast as him all the time. They dodge Ki, an energy blast capable of crossing the entire diameter of the Earth in a about two seconds.

    If Itachi even moves his hand two inches, Goku will notice him, and nuke him.

  54. Whacko
    Jan 29 - 3:35 pm

    Wrong. Goku would never consider to smash such a weak opponent instantly, neither would he nuke the area as his first action, that is later on if the place is totally deserted. This place will be, but he’ll still wait.

    Now, as soon as Goku sees his opponents make a form of movement, he’ll get caught in an illusion. And then it’s just Tsukyomi-Amaterasu and it’s over. And Enigma, he would do it with no trouble.

    “1) He’ll come out of it exhausted.”

    At his introduction, he used three Mangekyo moves in one day. While he tired from it, he still jumped around with Kisame in the ninja manner just fine. The levels of exhaustion he’ll experience aren’t great enough to make him drop it when it guarantees him victory.

    “2) When Itachi uses Tsukoymi, it’s not a magical enchantment that paralyzes the enemy for several days. It actually only lasts about two seconds. Itachi would be able to “torture” Goku for days in that world, but he wouldn’t be able to do anything else while doing it. Especially considering using either jutsu alone wears him out, he’s not stacking them.”

    The point is not to shoot off Amaterasu while Goku is in Tsukyomi. But the mental shock of Tsukyomi will firmly lock down Goku for some time. Kakashi is a ninja, and hence has to deal with illusions every now and then, and he hit the ground after experiencing it. Goku will not fare well. And in Itachis fight with Sasuke, he used all three of his Mangekyo techniques with little trouble. Granted, he died from his disease, but he managed the techniques just fine, and he had the energy needed to keep up his Susanoo perfectly until the point of death, despite two attacks coming out before it. Itachi will have NO problem pulling it off.

    If Goku had just speedblitzed before Itachi could make any kind of movement, it would be different, but being Goku, he won’t.

  55. Belisaurius
    Jan 29 - 3:58 pm

    Itachi has Goku in one shot and Goku isn’t the kind of guy who blitzes his foes.

    I think that’s game, people.

  56. Whacko
    Jan 29 - 4:21 pm

    Nah, it’s safer to go illusion, Tsukyomi and then Amaterasu that trying to end it with a single strike. If Goku has his senses and ability to move in place when Amaterasu is charged, it’s a good chance he’ll get away, and Itachi cannot fire of forever. Paralyzing first seems smarter.

  57. Whacko
    Jan 29 - 4:35 pm

    “But as we’ve seen Ki is alot more destructive. None of Itachis magic tricks are gonna save him from an explosion with the destructive range of a few cities. Or maybe a punch in the face from a guy whos trained in 10x gravity and beyond?”

    I’d have to disagree, really. With the Bijuu’s hardest attacks, we see energy beams comparable to Ki blasts. And while DBZ chars just train and train to raise their Ki, they also do a single thing with their energy, and that is blowing shit up. I’ve never seen a guy in DBZ try to achieve something like a flame attacks.

    Nothing in Naruto has anything that approaches the power of Ki users, but the Bijuu, who are the closest, get similar effects. Those with less power actually try to manupulate their power, unlike guys from DBZ who just smash. Anyway, they are both internal energies that powers attacks, exists around them as well as in body (Spirit Bomb and Sage Mode both uses such energy), and have shown similar properties in the single occasion that they could be compared in power level. I say they’re rather equal.

    As for Gokus training, that was retarded. I laughed reading that. I mean, he goes in a ship, trains in 100x gravity for I month and his powers increase how much? A few hundred thousand times? LOL.

  58. Envoy
    Jan 29 - 5:58 pm

    “I mean, he goes in a ship, trains in 100x gravity for I month and his powers increase how much? A few hundred thousand times? LOL.”

    Yea, master roshi didnt blow up a moon and a castle, with power levels less than one thousand! LOL!

    But srsly though, can itachi’s genjutsus even work?
    You can shater illusions through drastic changes in chakra, if goku charges up then just about ANY illusion will be inefective.

    Amatseratsu is the only thing posible, but goku could just dodge it, its been done before, and susanoo dosent have a constant defennse, an instant kamehameha would do the trick.

  59. Whacko
    Jan 29 - 6:16 pm

    “Yea, master roshi didnt blow up a moon and a castle, with power levels less than one thousand! LOL!”

    What the hell are you talking about? Is that related to what I said at all?

    If someone doesn’t know why i’m lolling at it, it was his fight with Frieza. Before leaving Earth, Goku at max strength outclassed Vegeta, placing him around a power level of 30.000. Upon reaching Namek, after training with 100x gravity for a single month, he can easily reach 180.000. Then we have Frieza. He had a power level of 530.000. Then he had 3 transformations, each doubling that number, meaning he ended up on over 4.000.000. Later, he says he turns his power up to half of his full potential, increasing his power dramatically. Let’s say he is a 8.000.000 at this point. After this the goes to full power, placing him at 16.000.000. Goku beat him and wasn’t even tired afterwards. Quite an increase in a month, eh? This whole event is ridiculous.

    And yes, genjutsus work. Even if that dumbass Goku proves up to the task of breaking an illusion cast on him (which i seriously doubt) he’ll still have to deal with Tsukyomi. As soon as hit Itachi has full control, meaning any effort to break it is meaningless. Then, while locked, Amaterasu and he’s toast. Goku is chanceless.

  60. 9-tailed fox
    Jan 29 - 6:49 pm

    @Envoy
    “But srsly though, can itachi’s genjutsus even work?
    You can shater illusions through drastic changes in chakra, if goku charges up then just about ANY illusion will be inefective.”

    I guess Itachi should strike when Goku is charging up…Seeing how it takes an entire life time for people in DBZ to charge up. Just kidding about this but seriously it does take awhile for them to charge up.

  61. Envoy
    Jan 29 - 6:53 pm

    ” Even if that dumbass Goku proves up to the task of breaking an illusion cast on him (which i seriously doubt) ”
    Goku can do it accidentaly, he has that much ki. Shatering a genjustsu can be done just by goku hiting SS2.

    “he’ll still have to deal with Tsukyomi. ”
    Tsukyomi has been broken before, and Itachi is dying remember, also it seems to be just a suped up genjutsu. Its broken the same way as a normal one, but its just so hard to do so.

  62. Whacko
    Jan 30 - 4:03 am

    “Goku can do it accidentaly, he has that much ki. Shatering a genjustsu can be done just by goku hiting SS2.”

    Problem is, as soon as he’s caught, he sees what Itachi wants him to see. Depending on what that is, going Super Saiyan might not really be a natural thing. And even if he does it, so what? An illusiom might only be broken with great disturbance in ones chakra. Even if we say adding more power is the same as disturbing, a new illusion is all it takes to get him again. Then he would need to cancel it or go higher, and every movement Itachi make can send him back into the illusions. He’ll have no chance of getting away with an intellect like his. And the other steps are quickly executed.

    And Tsukyomi will work with no problem. The one time it was broken was by Sasuke, an extremely proficent Sharingan user. Goku hasn’t shown anything like it, nor has it been hinted at. So, after powering up (if he has the brains to in the middle of all the strabgeness he’ll experience) his Ki is stable on a ridiculously high level. Then, he gets caught and that’s it. After that Itachi has full control, and can easily deny Goku the chance to even try breaking it. Goku ends up as a tortured crying baby, and Amaterasu burns him to dust.

    Itachi wins.

  63. Darkbladex96
    Feb 09 - 6:08 pm

    hahahahahaha sounds like some serious naruto fans here. tsukyomi really thats what this fight rides that one move and amaterasu?

    “Problem is, as soon as he’s caught, he sees what Itachi wants him to see. Depending on what that is, going Super Saiyan might not really be a natural thing. And even if he does it, so what? An illusiom might only be broken with great disturbance in ones chakra. Even if we say adding more power is the same as disturbing, a new illusion is all it takes to get him again. Then he would need to cancel it or go higher, and every movement Itachi make can send him back into the illusions. He’ll have no chance of getting away with an intellect like his. And the other steps are quickly executed.”

    so wrong every character on DBZ can control their ki anyway they want, but all of them can raise the lvl lower it concetrate it in certian body parts, or outside of them. so the effort it takes to break a genjutsu is small on goku’s part unless u wanna say that it cant happen.
    You so underestamate Goku, he only needs to escape once. if he ever gets caught in it. after that itachi wont see anything because he’ll be dead.

    there are a few things that need to happen in order for goku to be caught in a genjutsu. itachi has to distract him long enough to get line of sight with goku’s eyes. most genjutsu itachi have require that u do something leaving you open to it like running in stupid or not paying attention or being hypnotized by his eyes or han signs..

    give me itachis stategy for keeping line of sight.

    “Goku ends up as a tortured crying baby, and Amaterasu burns him to dust.”

    Ummm……so this moves gonna turn a character whose lowest spectrum of durability allows him to be plowed thru a mountain by an attack than have said attack detonate the mountain and he gets up and keeps fighting, into dust?

    can u show Amaterasu incenerating a person to dust, incenerating a building or a mountain or country? it might burn his clothes but this moves has proven nothing burn burning infinitely. Susanoo can cut “anything” no limits……really? goku’s from a whole different universe so anything is pretty big definition.

    and isnt this a fight and they are both aware that they are fighting? why would goku be standing still to begin with, plus just because itachi would have a small ki signature doesnt mean goku would go easy on him. he’s used to powerful beings hiding thier energy, thats not reason enough for him to doubt anyone.

  64. Whacko
    Feb 09 - 6:33 pm

    “so wrong every character on DBZ can control their ki anyway they want, but all of them can raise the lvl lower it concetrate it in certian body parts, or outside of them. so the effort it takes to break a genjutsu is small on goku’s part unless u wanna say that it cant happen.”

    Goku is a moron. If he gets caught in an illusion, HE WON’T KNOW. But, all of a sudden, Krillin lies dead beside him and he panics. Now, at this point, just what will make Goku think “I am obviously in a situation requiring me to adjust my Ki level in order to break the illusion and win the day!” Well, any ideas? The thing is, he won’t. He will see what Itachi want him to, and Goku will not understand anything at all. Even if he did, Itachi needs a max of 5 seconds to perform the whole plan, so Goku is fucked.

    “You so underestamate Goku, he only needs to escape once. if he ever gets caught in it. after that itachi wont see anything because he’ll be dead.”

    He will get caught. Seeing one of Itachis movements is enough. And seeing it again ignites it again, and Goku will, as I said, not know what to do when half of Vegetas body falls down and the dying Saiyan tells Goku to bugger off. That, and Goku seldom kills, there’s no way he’ll kill a weakling like Itachi, who can’t even punch a mountain apart. Not to sau he couldn’t quickly disable the guy, though.

    “there are a few things that need to happen in order for goku to be caught in a genjutsu. itachi has to distract him long enough to get line of sight with goku’s eyes.”

    Goku needs to see a moving body part. Only Tsukyomi needs direct eye contact. That is also easy considering Goku likes to stare his opponents in the face all the friggin’ time.

    “Ummm……so this moves gonna turn a character whose lowest spectrum of durability allows him to be plowed thru a mountain by an attack than have said attack detonate the mountain and he gets up and keeps fighting, into dust?”

    It burns up anything seen until now, including even normal flames. And the eight-tailed beast got downed. So Goku has shown great resilence, but this type of fire is something new entirely. It’s safer to assume that the fire works than that Goku stands up to it. Even if the body is unharmed, it will quickly go down his throat and burn his lungs. Good luck surviving.

    “and isnt this a fight and they are both aware that they are fighting? why would goku be standing still to begin with, plus just because itachi would have a small ki signature doesnt mean goku would go easy on him. he’s used to powerful beings hiding thier energy, thats not reason enough for him to doubt anyone.”

    BankGambling rules say both get some essential info on their opponents, but not much. I guess like this:

    Itachis’s info:

    The opponent can blow up planets, punch holes in mountains and take virtually any blow. Little intellect, immense speed.

    Goku’s info:

    The opponent can hypnotize you, create clones and achive a lot of effects with hand seals. Genius level intellect and good speed, but nothing compared to your own.

    And Goku always go easy from the start unless he REALLY feels like killing the other guy.

  65. Envoy
    Feb 10 - 1:51 pm

    “And Tsukyomi will work with no problem. The one time it was broken was by Sasuke, an extremely proficent Sharingan user. Goku hasn’t shown anything like it, nor has it been hinted at. So, after powering up (if he has the brains to in the middle of all the strabgeness he’ll experience) his Ki is stable on a ridiculously high level. Then, he gets caught and that’s it. After that Itachi has full control, and can easily deny Goku the chance to even try breaking it. Goku ends up as a tortured crying baby, and Amaterasu burns him to dust.”

    1) when has tsukoyomi been stated to be unbreakable to a non-sharingan user, because to my knowledge, it hasnt, so its broken the same way, until you can prove its not.

    2) Since when did itachi have enough chakra to affect planet destroying beings, the closest naruto universe has to that is the 10 tailed beast, sauske cast a genjutsu on killer bee, and that didnt work. Why should it work on a guy who busts planets easily?

    “Goku is a moron. If he gets caught in an illusion, HE WON’T KNOW. But, all of a sudden, Krillin lies dead beside him and he panics. Now, at this point, just what will make Goku think “I am obviously in a situation requiring me to adjust my Ki level in order to break the illusion and win the day!” Well, any ideas? The thing is, he won’t. He will see what Itachi want him to, and Goku will not understand anything at all. Even if he did, Itachi needs a max of 5 seconds to perform the whole plan, so Goku is fucked.”
    So, itachi can control planet destroying amounts of energy, can he? Good to know, seeing how sauske, a better illusionist than itachi, failed at entraping the 8-tailed beast in an illusion.

    And seeing how the answer to everything in DBZ is
    “charge up and punch/kick/blast it” I think that would be goku’s first action.
    That, and the fact that the last time krillin died near goku this happened:
    www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZW20C-l4Vg

    Your argument is “tsukoyomi works on everything” when there is no proof to suport that, please give something from the manga that prokes tsukoyomi being unbrakeable by a non-uchiha, or non sharingan user.

  66. Darkbladex96
    Feb 11 - 12:13 pm

    @whacko

    you obiviously dont remember what happens whe something kill and innocent in goku’s face. frieza killed krillin=super sayian. cooler killed a bird while fighting and the power in gokus palm ressurected it. a friend dying in a genjutsu not itachi’s smartest choice. first time goku believes his friends are in danger the glove are off.

    “It burns up anything seen until now, including even normal flames. And the eight-tailed beast got downed. So Goku has shown great resilence, but this type of fire is something new entirely. It’s safer to assume that the fire works than that Goku stands up to it. Even if the body is unharmed, it will quickly go down his throat and burn his lungs. Good luck surviving.”

    that block of txt dodged the question so hard, the black flame hasnt even incenerated anything in its own anime or manga, killer bee was on fire for 2-3 mins but was fully intact. its been shown that itachi can direct the flame to a target, but he nevers showed the ability to move it down people throat and crap.

    and once goku escapes if it even possible to catch him, itachi will have no way of catching him again, not that it will matter because he’ll be dead before he can move again, unless you wanna argue that itachi is fast as goku.

  67. Whacko
    Feb 11 - 12:27 pm

    “1) when has tsukoyomi been stated to be unbreakable to a non-sharingan user, because to my knowledge, it hasnt, so its broken the same way, until you can prove its not.”

    It has not. However, it has worked on Kakashi. And Kakashi had the Sharingan. Yet, the second he was trapped he was absolutely helpless. In that dimension Itachi has full control over everything. Kakashi is also an individual that has Mangekyo, more experience with illusions than Goku and he also packs a brain.

    Also consider this. I have no definite proof that Tsukyomi will always work, only examples to use and try to argue from. But, there is nothing to suggest that increasing his power will make Goku break an illusion. The only thing that happens is a greater energy. The disturbance in the Ki is minimal at best, the difference is in the amount of power. And, with the control exerted by Itachi inside Tsukyomi, even getting the chance to try and increase that power isn’t granted.

    “2) Since when did itachi have enough chakra to affect planet destroying beings, the closest naruto universe has to that is the 10 tailed beast, sauske cast a genjutsu on killer bee, and that didnt work. Why should it work on a guy who busts planets easily?”

    Sasuke is not a very good illusionist, he exels at the other powers of Sharingan. He managed to resist Tsukyomi, but apart from this he has no feats. He radiates resilence to illusionary warfare, but he has nothing on Itachi at all when it comes to actually trap others.

    And you want to know why Killer Bee was unaffected? The 8 tailed beast. Since this beast is inside Bee, it can disturb his chakra any time he gets caught in an illusion, rendering illusions useless against him. Goku lacks this advantage.

    So, the Naruto universe has never hinted at more power = harder to trap in illusions. Powerful beings simply often find themselves to have certain advantages or special skills when it comes to taking illusions. There is nothing to suggest Goku is immune.

    “So, itachi can control planet destroying amounts of energy, can he? Good to know, seeing how sauske, a better illusionist than itachi, failed at entraping the 8-tailed beast in an illusion.”

    “And seeing how the answer to everything in DBZ is
    “charge up and punch/kick/blast it” I think that would be goku’s first action.”

    You really don’t see what I mean, do you? HE WON’T KNOW. Itachi might make himself look like a little girl crying for help, one of Gokus friends, a rock or something else. Goku will have no reason to go “POWAH!!!” unless Itachi wants him to.

    As for Krillin, it was an example. Also, that would cause Goku to do his speciality; stare the opponent in the face. After that he would Super Sayian some people to death, that’s true.

    “Your argument is “tsukoyomi works on everything” when there is no proof to suport that, please give something from the manga that prokes tsukoyomi being unbrakeable by a non-uchiha, or non sharingan user.”

    The argument is as valid as I can get it. I have no definite source to call upon, but there is nothing to suggest otherwise either. This is kind of like a gun. If you shoot a normal man or the strongest bastard there is, the difference is rather low.

    Your turn.

    Again, Sasuke has never shown skills equal to itachi’s. In his fight with Danzo it was even remarked that Sasuke’s mastery over illusions was ridiculously low compared to his older brother. The argument with the beast is the same (a partner inside to snap him out) and the argument with planet busters also stands.

  68. Whacko
    Feb 11 - 12:40 pm

    “you obiviously dont remember what happens whe something kill and innocent in goku’s face. frieza killed krillin=super sayian. cooler killed a bird while fighting and the power in gokus palm ressurected it. a friend dying in a genjutsu not itachi’s smartest choice. first time goku believes his friends are in danger the glove are off.”

    And you obviously don’t know that this was an example. You also forget that it would cause Goku to stare right in itachis’s face for a few secs, and you forget that even Frieza was forgiven.

    “that block of txt dodged the question so hard, the black flame hasnt even incenerated anything in its own anime or manga, killer bee was on fire for 2-3 mins but was fully intact. its been shown that itachi can direct the flame to a target, but he nevers showed the ability to move it down people throat and crap.”

    It has burned a wall to ash, engulfed the form of the eight tails and some other things. But Killer Bee survived because he was inside one of the arms, so he didn’t burn, the arm/tentacle did. Also, the flame will obviously get down the throat after a while. It will eventually cover the body, and at that the point it reaches the throat, it will begin burning downwards. That speaks for itself, as it can burn on anything, it will eventually spread there. Or itachi might aim at the mouth, of course.

    “and once goku escapes if it even possible to catch him, itachi will have no way of catching him again, not that it will matter because he’ll be dead before he can move again, unless you wanna argue that itachi is fast as goku.”

    Goku seldom kills, and Itachi is not evil enough to get the honor. Goku will likely not escape, and seeing one of Itachis movements is enough to get trapped. He will, however, not know WHY he is trapped, meaning that even if he escapes for all eternity, he will get caught again and again.

    Plus, with the multitude of clones Itachi uses, getting to the right one is tricky. Itachi might not be faster, but his speed is easily enough for this fight.

    “It burns up anything seen until now, including even normal flames. And the eight-tailed beast got downed. So Goku has shown great resilence, but this type of fire is something new entirely. It’s safer to assume that the fire works than that Goku stands up to it. Even if the body is unharmed, it will quickly go down his throat and burn his lungs. Good luck surviving.”

    that block of txt dodged the question so hard, the black flame hasnt even incenerated anything in its own anime or manga, killer bee was on fire for 2-3 mins but was fully intact. its been shown that itachi can direct the flame to a target, but he nevers showed the ability to move it down people throat and crap.

    and once goku escapes if it even possible to catch him, itachi will have no way of catching him again, not that it will matter because he’ll be dead before he can move again, unless you wanna argue that itachi is fast as goku.

  69. Darkbladex96
    Feb 11 - 1:13 pm

    frieza was forgiven, but insisted on fighting so goku did try to kill with the final blast.

    ok yo showed that it could incenerate a wall…….it needs more power than that. and i meant to say how the 8-tails wasnt incenerated. it would get down his throat after awhile, a while is too long.

    time to address this goku being to stupid to avoid stuff..Goku is book stupid; however, the man is a combat genuis able to master and decipher attacks after seeing them only once. he learned the after image from seeing roshi do it, same way he learned kamehameha, saw it once than did it(a move that tookroshi 10 yrs to master). whch would requre him to know of ki, and how to channel it. which he didnt. and yet he performed the move seconds after roshi. after seeing tsykiomi once goku may know everything about it. goku instintcually breaks down this shit multiple tsukoyomi is outta the question.

    “The argument is as valid as I can get it. I have no definite source to call upon, but there is nothing to suggest otherwise either. This is kind of like a gun. If you shoot a normal man or the strongest bastard there is, the difference is rather low.”

    no its not, its basically you saying the the same gun you shoot me with will kill goku because there’s nothing to prove otherwise.

    “Plus, with the multitude of clones Itachi uses, getting to the right one is tricky. Itachi might not be faster, but his speed is easily enough for this fight.”

    the more clones the bigger the kamehameha is gonna be. his speed is not enough, not by a long shot. does itachi have any speed feats suggesting that he can thru pure speed, appear in multiple places within miles of combat area moments between each other and with each new appearance causing sonic booms.

  70. Whacko
    Feb 11 - 1:38 pm

    “ok yo showed that it could incenerate a wall…….it needs more power than that. and i meant to say how the 8-tails wasnt incenerated. it would get down his throat after awhile, a while is too long.”

    The wall was the only thing I came up with from the top of my mind, but the flames of Amaterasu is stated to be able to burn through anything. No limits fallacy concerning other chars, but it does state that rather few things in the Narutoverse is able to stand up to it. So burn for a long enough time and Goku should be history. Or use the other suggestion to aim down his throat. And a while is not too long. Tsukyomi paralyze people who get effected, as it puts them under severe mental assault for at least 72 hours, possibly more. Goku is not going to merely jump back up.

    “time to address this goku being to stupid to avoid stuff..Goku is book stupid; however, the man is a combat genuis able to master and decipher attacks after seeing them only once. he learned the after image from seeing roshi do it, same way he learned kamehameha, saw it once than did it(a move that tookroshi 10 yrs to master). whch would requre him to know of ki, and how to channel it. which he didnt. and yet he performed the move seconds after roshi. after seeing tsykiomi once goku may know everything about it. goku instintcually breaks down this shit multiple tsukoyomi is outta the question.”

    A Kamehameha and Tsukyomi is different. In the case of Kamehameha, you can look at the pose and the words, do some guesswork and you got it. Hard, but not impossible. Tsukyomi has no pose and no words, and an effect that cannot be copied. Not to mention one is enough, several is an unneccesary strain on Itachi’s eyes.

    Goku will not know everything about Tsukyomi from seeing it, the Kamehameha example is not appliable to a Mangekyo technique. And saying Goku can break it by instinct is utter rubbish. People trained in dealing with illusions and fit for it fail epically, Goku has nothing that sets him above them in this regard.

    “no its not, its basically you saying the the same gun you shoot me with will kill goku because there’s nothing to prove otherwise.”

    Riiiight. Illusions have never been halted by the other guy being more powerful than you, to any degree. It is not hinted at, and Kurenai, being weaker than Itachi, still managed to catch the latter in an illusion. Itachi used his Sharingan to turn the situation around, but she still caught him. And the three freaks in the forest of death captured naruto’s party and Kabuto, all of whom were more powerful, an the group didn’t notice anything for a LONG time. There is little evidence supporting Goku here.

    “the more clones the bigger the kamehameha is gonna be. his speed is not enough, not by a long shot. does itachi have any speed feats suggesting that he can thru pure speed, appear in multiple places within miles of combat area moments between each other and with each new appearance causing sonic booms.”

    If Goku starts a Kamehameha he is so ridiculously exposed he’ll get sniped right away. And Itachi’s speed is enough. He cannot run circles around his opponent, but he needs only to move in order to catch Goku in an illusion. Also, remember the fight with Sasuke. Sasuke charged Kirin, an attack going from the sky to the ground in 1/1000 of a second. After the lighning bolt had already travelled a bit, Itachi reacted and brought up his defence. Goku needs his higher speed feats, and he just won’t use them before Itachi does something cruel.

  71. Darkbladex96
    Feb 11 - 2:34 pm

    moving away wont work he can control where kamehameha’s go or warp at the last possible moment.

    “A Kamehameha and Tsukyomi is different. In the case of Kamehameha, you can look at the pose and the words, do some guesswork and you got it. Hard, but not impossible. Tsukyomi has no pose and no words, and an effect that cannot be copied. Not to mention one is enough, several is an unneccesary strain on Itachi’s eyes.

    Goku will not know everything about Tsukyomi from seeing it, the Kamehameha example is not appliable to a Mangekyo technique. And saying Goku can break it by instinct is utter rubbish. People trained in dealing with illusions and fit for it fail epically, Goku has nothing that sets him above them in this regard.”

    kamehamaha is a complicated ki technique that took roshi yrs to master and krillin a few yrs. saying that it a pose a word and guessing is ignorance. your trying to belittle one of goku’s abilities that can put a major hole in itachi strengths, your trying to deny him his ability to learn from seeing, he learned solar flare like this, and learned multiple moves in relatively short times.

    saying that goku cant break out by instinct is rubbish. what youre trying to tell us is tht a man whose instinct allows him to be aware of energy signs, and changes across multiple galaxies and diminsions, from any source of power lvl from Broly, to a bird isnt gonna be aware of the changes in his own energy flow that are nessacery to trap him in a genjutsu. that is BS…all the way….

    and i never said that illusions dont work on people stronger than you…but be reasonable itachi cant wave and destroy a city neither can kurenai, comparing either on of them to being in each others jutsu is nowhere near enough proof to say that itachi can hold someone on the DBZ levelof power. how much charkra would he need to maintain his hold on goku? IDK but ill bet most people would agree that he has nowhere near enough.

    speed feats from the vegeta fight are more than enough. lets c itachi dodge an attack that comes in 0/1000 of a sec or an attack whose radius is easily larger than a city, or a barrage of thousands of little ki blasts with the power ot bust mountains. i doubt itachi could even dodge punches from goku.

    you seem to forget that those long drawn out kamehameha are usually finishers. goku has done the blast instantly, one handed, controlled its path, and sent someone into the sun, ill put money that a kamehameha is faster than any naruto attack, seeing as it was able to send cooler to the sun in a few seconds. besides goku has many geneic instant ki blasts to use.

    of course goku cant copy the Tsukyomi he only needs to understand it.
    and you wann talk about words and poses.

    off topic
    “no one can escape this Tsukyomi”
    “this Tsukyomi is unbreakable”
    “Tsukyomi!!!!”
    “once you are inside the Tsukyomi i control time and space.”

    i dont think itachi can think of a pain that goku cant endure.

  72. Whacko
    Feb 11 - 3:08 pm

    “moving away wont work he can control where kamehameha’s go or warp at the last possible moment.”

    That was not the point. When Goku uses full speed, Itachi cannot dodge. What he can do is bring up Susanoo and hope it’s hard enough. Moot point, as Goku will be down before he uses such speed.

    “kamehamaha is a complicated ki technique that took roshi yrs to master and krillin a few yrs. saying that it a pose a word and guessing is ignorance. your trying to belittle one of goku’s abilities that can put a major hole in itachi strengths, your trying to deny him his ability to learn from seeing, he learned solar flare like this, and learned multiple moves in relatively short times.”

    Goku cannot put a hole in Itachi’s strengths. Even if this observation ability you speak so highly of could just get the required info, that would not change the fact that he got hit by an attack that makes him suffer extreme physical and mental pain for a minimum of 72 hours. An attack he will get hit by and that he cannot resist. Unless you have a flaw in Tsukyomi to present, or an unknown feat of Goku to bring up this stands. Also take into consideration that a normal illusion will suffice as long as it makes Goku go “WTF?” long enough to get Amaterasu or Susanoo’s sword stuck down his throat.

    You must also realize that all the moves he learned were techniques that can be taught and that can be identified. Tsukyomi will lock you down and is nowhere near similar to those techniques.

    “saying that goku cant break out by instinct is rubbish. what youre trying to tell us is tht a man whose instinct allows him to be aware of energy signs, and changes across multiple galaxies and diminsions, from any source of power lvl from Broly, to a bird isnt gonna be aware of the changes in his own energy flow that are nessacery to trap him in a genjutsu. that is BS…all the way….”

    Now you are just making a fool out of yourself. Big time. His “instinct” is not what allows him to sense energy, natural aptitude for and training in the skill is what does it. Also, you overestimate the ability. He cannot sense people from galaxies away. When searching for New Namek he needed help to locate them, despite Namekians having solid Ki signatures and he knew what they were like. He also loses track of opponents stronger than himself all the time, in the middle of a fight. Itachi’s Ki signature is either normal human level or equal to his chakra, and neither level is anywhere near those of Goku’s regular opponents.

    And just how do any of this relate to resisting illusions and mental assault? Please, enlighten me, as I frankly don’t understand how the fuck these are comparable concepts. At all.

    “and i never said that illusions dont work on people stronger than you…but be reasonable itachi cant wave and destroy a city neither can kurenai, comparing either on of them to being in each others jutsu is nowhere near enough proof to say that itachi can hold someone on the DBZ levelof power. how much charkra would he need to maintain his hold on goku? IDK but ill bet most people would agree that he has nowhere near enough.”

    I already said that power levels haven’t been a hindrance before, but you need more convincing? What if I bring up that Goku usually locks away his own power when not fighting? He isn’t a planet buster when walking around in the street, he is a planet buster after releasing his power in battle. And he does not release this power on an opponent he deems as weak as Itachi. Meaning that itachi can freely catch him straight off the bat, and there’s not even high power to stop him.

    “speed feats from the vegeta fight are more than enough. lets c itachi dodge an attack that comes in 0/1000 of a sec or an attack whose radius is easily larger than a city, or a barrage of thousands of little ki blasts with the power ot bust mountains. i doubt itachi could even dodge punches from goku.”

    First. 0/1000 implies the speed of infinite. That is outside Goku’s power. I’m sure you meant “less than 1/1000″. I’m not going to argue on that, but I will tell you that Goku won’t use such speeds against such a weak opponent before the enemy has done something evil, while Itachi will kill or seriously maim without a second thought.

    “you seem to forget that those long drawn out kamehameha are usually finishers. goku has done the blast instantly, one handed, controlled its path, and sent someone into the sun, ill put money that a kamehameha is faster than any naruto attack, seeing as it was able to send cooler to the sun in a few seconds. besides goku has many geneic instant ki blasts to use. ”

    Whether or not his fast Ki blasts in Kamehameha posture are the real deal or not is moot. The thing is that Goku will not start out with speedblitzing or Ki blasts. He will stand and stare right in the eyes that will catch him, the same thing he does in all of his fights. Ki blasts will never be an issue.

    “i dont think itachi can think of a pain that goku cant endure.”

    Okay? What about having his nerves a thousand times more sensitive, then getting stabbed for 3 days while he is forced to personally kill his own loved ones inside that world? He will go down, HARD. Saying he is unfazed after that is just stupid.

    I might also add that Goku has all the power needed to take out Itachi. If he knew what Itachi could do and was willing to, he could just close his eyes as fight starts, fly up high and blow up the planet. But, being Goku, with his intellect and his personality, he won’t. It’s his stupidity, lacking experience with illusions and personality that gets him killed.

    Itachi wins, end of story.

  73. Cpt Olimar
    Feb 11 - 4:15 pm

    as much as I would love to call Goku an idiot with the next person, and as much as his personal character traits and speech would make on think he is an idiot, he is quite adaptable in combat and actually has one advantage that most other fighters don’t have.

    He rarely let’s pride get the best of him. This is one trait that almost every villain and tons of protagonists suffer from, but it is something that Goku does NOT. As a hero, he is quite humble actually, and in battle he is quite smart. If he knew some of the special abilities of his opponent, he wouldn’t allow pride to get to his head, he’s not like that. He only goes easy when he is absolutely certain, not on somebody who he is unfamiliar with.

    I don’t watch narutard show (and am ashamed that I even watched DBZ) what character foibles does Itachi suffer from? Arrogance, pride?

  74. Whacko
    Feb 11 - 4:19 pm

    Not at all, he suffer from very bad childhood experiences making him hate conflicts and an unhealthy amount of love for his little brother. He still kills like hell, and has no superiority complex or anything. In the end, It turned out he were never even a villain.

    He lacks faults that hinder him in combat.

  75. Darkbladex96
    Feb 11 - 4:21 pm

    no sir not end of story if you wanna ride da genjutsu so hard say….itachi makes goku kill his own friends and family inside this nightmare realm, so we then would have a crazed goku with no CIS stopping him.

    “I already said that power levels haven’t been a hindrance before, but you need more convincing? What if I bring up that Goku usually locks away his own power when not fighting? He isn’t a planet buster when walking around in the street, he is a planet buster after releasing his power in battle. And he does not release this power on an opponent he deems as weak as Itachi. Meaning that itachi can freely catch him straight off the bat, and there’s not even high power to stop him.”

    well you know good as i dont, they arent gonna be fight on the street, both parties are aware of each other and goku even gets to know that being hypnotized is possible lowering the chances of successful genjutsu even more.

    “Whether or not his fast Ki blasts in Kamehameha posture are the real deal or not is moot. The thing is that Goku will not start out with speedblitzing or Ki blasts. He will stand and stare right in the eyes that will catch him, the same thing he does in all of his fights. Ki blasts will never be an issue.”

    those are goku’s hey i really dont wanna fight moves which are more than enough to instantly incapacitate itachi. which isnt outta character.

    “Now you are just making a fool out of yourself. Big time. His “instinct” is not what allows him to sense energy, natural aptitude for and training in the skill is what does it. Also, you overestimate the ability. He cannot sense people from galaxies away. When searching for New Namek he needed help to locate them, despite Namekians having solid Ki signatures and he knew what they were like. He also loses track of opponents stronger than himself all the time, in the middle of a fight. Itachi’s Ki signature is either normal human level or equal to his chakra, and neither level is anywhere near those of Goku’s regular opponents.”

    really you think so? anything he could do to a degree without training is instinct to me. sure he refined it to the lvl it is today with training but it was always something he could do to a degree. needed a little help to sense a planet lightyears away, dont see how this weakness the ability because the fact is he did it, not to mention, the times he sensed power lvls in other world. and he loses track of opponents stronger then him mid fight……..doesnt apply here because itachi cant move that fast. and he can sense the power lvls of regular humans thats how he can track and IT to the non combat characters in DBZ. it may or may not reach that far but he can still sense within other dimensions, at at the least on a global scale.

    you obviously didnt see the how genjutsu affect a person energy flow and how goku is aware of his energy flow. wat im getting at is that. goku disrupting his own flow to break the genjutsu isnt gonna be very hard seeing as he’ll sense itachi’s energy screwing with his.

    yeah those moves goku learned were taught to him and identifed, itachi’s moves are identified what are trying to get at? that because itachi is the only one capable of using the moves that they are complicated? or to hard to understand? i highly doubt itachis moves are that much more complicated. what proof is there that susanoo can harm goku? can we say no limits…..how about Amaterasu harming goku…..no limits?
    and the flaw with the genjutsu is that it’ll exhaust itachi to a point he’s never been, trying to hold goku. after a few genjutsu against sasuke his eyes were bleeding, and his susanoo failed from exhaustion, not to mention the mans dying from an unknown ailment.

    menatl assualt is his only weapon, Amaterasu is a none factor its never shown the destructive capability necessary to even make goku flinch sure it burns forever so what? it’ll be like a flying on goku forever. goku’s finger is durable enough to parry multiple sword strikes from trunks, so susanoo might snap it sword like a twig trying to shove it down goku’s throat

    oh and both parties know stuff about each other.

    itachi cant win…no killing blow, not fast enough….not strong enough….and he lets his gaurd down once youv been caught. cant defend against most of goku’s attacks. and a successful genjutsu miht leave goku crazed.

  76. Envoy
    Feb 11 - 4:41 pm

    “It has not. However, it has worked on Kakashi. And Kakashi had the Sharingan. Yet, the second he was trapped he was absolutely helpless. In that dimension Itachi has full control over everything. Kakashi is also an individual that has Mangekyo, more experience with illusions than Goku and he also packs a brain.”

    So what, Kakashi, and the sharingan have never been stated to be a defense against illusions, though they are good at them, they are not protected against them.

    “Also consider this. I have no definite proof that Tsukyomi will always work, only examples to use and try to argue from. But, there is nothing to suggest that increasing his power will make Goku break an illusion. The only thing that happens is a greater energy. The disturbance in the Ki is minimal at best, the difference is in the amount of power. And, with the control exerted by Itachi inside Tsukyomi, even getting the chance to try and increase that power isn’t granted.”

    Well consider this, durring naruto’s training with jiriaya, naruto was told how to break illusions, this can be done so by creating huge changes in your chakra levels, by doing that the chakra the illusionist cast in your body is forced out and the illusion shatered. Naruto tried this once but itachi used enough chakra to over power naruto’s change.
    www.onemanga.com/Naruto/259/10/

    “Sasuke is not a very good illusionist, he exels at the other powers of Sharingan. He managed to resist Tsukyomi, but apart from this he has no feats.”
    Itachi cast tsukoyomi on sauske, sauske then broke it. Zetsu then, just read the page:
    www.onemanga.com/Naruto/388/15/

    “He radiates resilence to illusionary warfare, but he has nothing on Itachi at all when it comes to actually trap others.”
    So, did you make this up or are you gonna prove this? Because its total BS.

    “And you want to know why Killer Bee was unaffected? The 8 tailed beast. Since this beast is inside Bee, it can disturb his chakra any time he gets caught in an illusion, rendering illusions useless against him. Goku lacks this advantage.”

    Please dont tell me what I already know, I know that the ox(IDC what it is) has taken killer bee and juiced him up as an anti-genjutsu manuver.

    “So, the Naruto universe has never hinted at more power = harder to trap in illusions. Powerful beings simply often find themselves to have certain advantages or special skills when it comes to taking illusions. There is nothing to suggest Goku is immune.”
    What I dont know is how you’re going to say stronger people JUST HAPPEN to be immune to genjutsus. Where did this come from? Because every genjutsu was given a weakness, exploitable by everyone who knows it. In Goku’s case, he can exploit it inadvertently.

    “You really don’t see what I mean, do you? HE WON’T KNOW. Itachi might make himself look like a little girl crying for help, one of Gokus friends, a rock or something else. Goku will have no reason to go “POWAH!!!” unless Itachi wants him to.”
    True, but my point is that goku has SO MUCH energy that a slight change to him(power levels of 300-500) would be a HUGE change to Itachi(Fox cloak 0-4).

    “The argument is as valid as I can get it. I have no definite source to call upon, but there is nothing to suggest otherwise either. This is kind of like a gun. If you shoot a normal man or the strongest bastard there is, the difference is rather low.”
    FACTS
    1) Tsukoyomi is a genjutsu
    2) Genjutsu’s have an known weakness
    3) Tsukoyomi has been broken before

    You seem to be tossing about eye techniques easily, did you read the latest naruto? Itachi seldom uses thes techs and sauske does the complete opposite, look where he is now. So now Itachi, who is dying, and half blind, is going to use them multiple times after they are shatered.
    www.onemanga.com/Naruto/389/09/
    “Again, Sasuke has never shown skills equal to itachi’s. In his fight with Danzo it was even remarked that Sasuke’s mastery over illusions was ridiculously low compared to his older brother. The argument with the beast is the same (a partner inside to snap him out) and the argument with planet busters also stands.”

    Yeah, and now, (SPOILERALERTSPOILERALERTSPOILERALERT) Danzo is dead, how you ask, sauske’s genjutsu.(END SPOILER)

    I lay a card face down and end my turn, your draw.

  77. Envoy
    Feb 11 - 4:44 pm

    “Not at all, he suffer from very bad childhood experiences making him hate conflicts and an unhealthy amount of love for his little brother. He still kills like hell, and has no superiority complex or anything. In the end, It turned out he were never even a villain.

    He lacks faults that hinder him in combat.”

    Did you forget his near death status, and half blindness? Or do you just not know about Itachi?

  78. Whacko
    Feb 11 - 5:01 pm

    “no sir not end of story if you wanna ride da genjutsu so hard say….itachi makes goku kill his own friends and family inside this nightmare realm, so we then would have a crazed goku with no CIS stopping him.”

    I really don’t want to sound like an ass but are you retarded? In this instance Goku has his nerves more sensitive leading to greater pain, he is continally stabbed/cut/burned/whatever Itachi feels like while he finds himself mercilessly slaughtering his beloved one with his own hands, their blood soaking his body. The mental stress of going through that hell for 72 hours won’t make him go berserk, it will make him fall to the ground and start crying. You REALLY need a strong argument to deny that.

    “well you know good as i dont, they arent gonna be fight on the street, both parties are aware of each other and goku even gets to know that being hypnotized is possible lowering the chances of successful genjutsu even more.”

    Okay, what do you think is faster? Goku releasing his power back to normal or Itachi moving his pinky an inch? My money’s on Itachi. Even if Goku knows that illusions is possible, what will he do? He just ain’t the type of guy to mindlessly blow up everything in a radius of 10 KM, he only does that to strong guys in a very tough fight.. And, with Itachi’s clones, he can easily make Goku attack while approaching from another angle with his real body or another clone.

    “those are goku’s hey i really dont wanna fight moves which are more than enough to instantly incapacitate itachi. which isnt outta character.”

    It’s in character for Goku to blast a man that cannot even punch steel apart? Also, as I said, it won’t come down to these attacks.

    “really you think so? anything he could do to a degree without training is instinct to me.”

    You misunderstood. The ability comes from instinct (like moving a hand) but using it to the max is skill and practice (like learning how to do an effective punch). And the argument is that instinct alone cannot smash apart Tsukyomi, so this point is not worth talking about anymore.

    “sure he refined it to the lvl it is today with training but it was always something he could do to a degree. needed a little help to sense a planet lightyears away, dont see how this weakness the ability because the fact is he did it, not to mention, the times he sensed power lvls in other world. and he loses track of opponents stronger then him mid fight……..doesnt apply here because itachi cant move that fast. and he can sense the power lvls of regular humans thats how he can track and IT to the non combat characters in DBZ. it may or may not reach that far but he can still sense within other dimensions, at at the least on a global scale.”

    Itachi has a very low Ki, and as such is harder to track than a Ki monster. As he moves much faster than any normal human with his Ki level, tracking him is either comparable to Goku’s normal enemies or just kinda hard. Also, as illusions will be the main weapon, Goku will find himself having very little ability to sense where his opponent is. He gets tricked into believing nothings’s there, or that Itachi is somewhere else.

    “you obviously didnt see the how genjutsu affect a person energy flow and how goku is aware of his energy flow. wat im getting at is that. goku disrupting his own flow to break the genjutsu isnt gonna be very hard seeing as he’ll sense itachi’s energy screwing with his.”

    And? Ninja are aware of their chakra flow, they manipulate the stuff all the time, they need to sense it to use it. Still, a ninja cannot tell when he is trapped unless he notices something strange. Naruto found out when Itachi suddenly transformed into a bunch of birds. As long as Itachi doesn’t make a blatant error, Goku won’t know. Not to mention the steps in the illusion-tsukyomi-amaterasu plan is to be quickly executed, leaving little time to wonder why you suddenly got stuck in a puddle of pink goo you cannot escape.

    “yeah those moves goku learned were taught to him and identifed, itachi’s moves are identified what are trying to get at? that because itachi is the only one capable of using the moves that they are complicated? or to hard to understand?”

    Merely that the techniques Goku normally face is things you can see being used, release traceable energy, shows some signs as to how they work, etc. Tsukyomi captures you and leaves you wondering just what the fuck happened. Goku will learn that Itachi’s eyes are dangerous, but that will not help him escape.

    “what proof is there that susanoo can harm goku? can we say no limits…..how about Amaterasu harming goku…..no limits?
    and the flaw with the genjutsu is that it’ll exhaust itachi to a point he’s never been, trying to hold goku. after a few genjutsu against sasuke his eyes were bleeding, and his susanoo failed from exhaustion, not to mention the mans dying from an unknown ailment.”

    How Susanoo kills Goku? It can cut anything in the Narutoverse (no limits) and it seals away the soul of what it strikes.(not a fallacy) Amaterasu? Extra potent flames that cannot be exthinguished,(possibly a fallacy, but they have managed to burn anything up to now.) meaning that they will eventually kill him. And his insides have never shown the ability to handle fire.

    Also, about exhaustion, that only applies to Mangekyo techniques. Normal illusions aren’t really tiring to him at all. And in the battle with Sasuke, he used all three of his Mangekyo tech, tons of Amaterasu, tanked a lightning bolt that blew apart a building and was getting killed from disease. He still beat Sasuke and sealed Orochimaru. In that battle he din’t use his full abilities, even.

    So unless he needs three Mangekyo techniques or the fight takes half an hour, exhaustion/disease is of little issue. Especially considering a single Tsukyomi will render Goku’s fighting condition ruined.

    “menatl assualt is his only weapon, Amaterasu is a none factor its never shown the destructive capability necessary to even make goku flinch sure it burns forever so what? it’ll be like a flying on goku forever. goku’s finger is durable enough to parry multiple sword strikes from trunks, so susanoo might snap it sword like a twig trying to shove it down goku’s throat”

    Goku’s insides. And if it burns forever it will eventually kill him. An immortal fly hitting you with full power for eternity will kill you, despite needing LOTS of time. If Goku gets hit with Amaterasu he is dead. Even if he can resist the effect his insides will not, the water in his body will dissipate and kill him, and if he tries to eat or drink the flames will hinder it. And he will burn anything he touches. Nice future. But, it’s admittedly not important for the match.

    “oh and both parties know stuff about each other.”

    Limited information.

    “itachi cant win…no killing blow, not fast enough….not strong enough….and he lets his gaurd down once youv been caught. cant defend against most of goku’s attacks. and a successful genjutsu miht leave goku crazed.”

    Itachi never lets his guard down. Goku is more likely to do.

  79. Darkbladex96
    Feb 11 - 5:04 pm

    @Whacko

    you throw around no limits alot

  80. Whacko
    Feb 11 - 5:05 pm

    Okay, i’ll get back to this tomorrow. I need some sleep.

  81. Envoy
    Feb 11 - 5:11 pm

    “Okay, i’ll get back to this tomorrow. I need some sleep.”

    Its like 5:00 by me, where are you? Europe?

  82. Whacko
    Feb 11 - 5:12 pm

    Yeah, Europe. 23:05.

  83. Whacko
    Feb 11 - 5:51 pm

    Okay, bed time. But one last thing, can someone bring Mata over? It’s a lot to answer to, and I’ll be without internet for 2 or 3 starting the evening tomorrow. This debate will not be finished by then.

    Anyway, good night/day/morning/evening folks! *snore*

  84. Darkbladex96
    Feb 11 - 6:01 pm

    I really don’t want to sound like an ass but are you retarded? In this instance Goku has his nerves more sensitive leading to greater pain, he is continally stabbed/cut/burned/whatever Itachi feels like while he finds himself mercilessly slaughtering his beloved one with his own hands, their blood soaking his body. The mental stress of going through that hell for 72 hours won’t make him go berserk, it will make him fall to the ground and start crying. You REALLY need a strong argument to deny that.

    supersentive nerves and being stabbed for 72 hours is gonna be no worse than what hits him in the face regularly. if the genjutsu even holds up.

    “It’s in character for Goku to blast a man that cannot even punch steel apart? Also, as I said, it won’t come down to these attacks.”

    he wont be blasted apart just koed of injured slightly till he kept tryin to kill goku.

    “Also, about exhaustion, that only applies to Mangekyo techniques. Normal illusions aren’t really tiring to him at all. And in the battle with Sasuke, he used all three of his Mangekyo tech, tons of Amaterasu, tanked a lightning bolt that blew apart a building and was getting killed from disease. He still beat Sasuke and sealed Orochimaru. In that battle he din’t use his full abilities, even.”

    sasuke orochimaru and lightning are jokes compared to this. he cant take anything the opponent can dishout. he cant maintain the amount of chakra needed to keep goku in a genjutsu. trying to control goku is gonna exhaust him then and there.

    and your counting too much up to CIS if these attacks prove to be that dangerous goku will kill him. why would goku take attack after attack after attack which according to you can kill him, and not fight back? thats beyond goku’s CIS.
    im changing some stuff if itachi keepos doing thing to goku which are harming him then yes, he will blast him.

    you take goku’s humbleness for stupidity, sure he fights people on their lvl and doesnt kill if possible, but he’s never underestamating them. just being fair.

    this fight is in oblivion somewhere with nothin around em to be in the way, so why would goku have any power locked away, sure he would try not to fight him, and he wouldnt be super sayian or anything but at his base power lvl, which is still tremendous.

    “Merely that the techniques Goku normally face is things you can see being used, release traceable energy, shows some signs as to how they work, etc. Tsukyomi captures you and leaves you wondering just what the fuck happened. Goku will learn that Itachi’s eyes are dangerous, but that will not help him escape.”

    so goku’s not gonna notice the energy dispruting his own? so goku cant use his own energy to to disrupt it? is that what your trying to say.

    Okay, what do you think is faster? Goku releasing his power back to normal or Itachi moving his pinky an inch? My money’s on Itachi. Even if Goku knows that illusions is possible, what will he do? He just ain’t the type of guy to mindlessly blow up everything in a radius of 10 KM, he only does that to strong guys in a very tough fight.. And, with Itachi’s clones, he can easily make Goku attack while approaching from another angle with his real body or another clone.

    seeing as goku’s power is gonna be at normal lvls anyway, even if they werent id stiil say goku could do it faster. goku wont blast away he’d hit em large ki waves and clear out rows rows and rows of em, what does itachi do after he approaches from another angle.

    “And? Ninja are aware of their chakra flow, they manipulate the stuff all the time, they need to sense it to use it. Still, a ninja cannot tell when he is trapped unless he notices something strange. Naruto found out when Itachi suddenly transformed into a bunch of birds. As long as Itachi doesn’t make a blatant error, Goku won’t know. Not to mention the steps in the illusion-tsukyomi-amaterasu plan is to be quickly executed, leaving little time to wonder why you suddenly got stuck in a puddle of pink goo you cannot escape.”

    so your wagering that gokus sense of energy isnt better than naruto’s?

    “Itachi has a very low Ki, and as such is harder to track than a Ki monster. As he moves much faster than any normal human with his Ki level, tracking him is either comparable to Goku’s normal enemies or just kinda hard. Also, as illusions will be the main weapon, Goku will find himself having very little ability to sense where his opponent is. He gets tricked into believing nothings’s there, or that Itachi is somewhere else.”

    well the problem with that is how it would require goku to have some trouble tracking normal human ki lvls, and naruto characters just arent fast enough to trick his sense even though itachi in theory could, thats not gonna stop an omnidirectional ki blast when goku becomes confused.

    as stated before if Amaterasu could kill goku the time it would take to do so would make it not much of a win condition.

  85. C.A.W.
    Feb 11 - 7:50 pm

    First of all chakra and ki are not the same and do not funtion the same. Chakra is form by the mixing of spiritual engergy and physical energy and then flows through the body in a similar fashion as the cardiavasular system. Ki or chi, is just described as life energy in DBZ and never describes any form of energy mixture what so ever so we have to assume that Chakra and Ki are distinct from each other. This would make genjutsu of any form against Goku useless because Goku lacks chakra. By this arguement though Goku would not beable to sense Itachi for the same reasons, this would allow Itachi to the ability to hide and fight like a ninja should, not this open battlefield nonsense. Also Goku can only sense weak ki signatures easily if he is familiar with them such as with Bulma or Chi-chi.

    Another problem with the way Amaterasu and Susanoo are being use is that they are only being judged by Naruto standards, we have to remember that these techniques were only made for the Naruto world and never intended for use against anything else.

    Let us look at Amaterasu. First its strength; can burn anything, unavoidable so long as the target remains within Itachi’s focus, and are unextinguishable. Its two weaknesse are; extremely slow moving, if the target is quick enough they could remove what ever portion of themselves or clothing that caught fire and be safe, and this technique also places great strain upon the user, usually causing eye bleeds. Now while this is devastating to Goku should he get hit by it Goku is able to do things with Ki that ninja cannot. Unlike ninja, Goku is able to express his Ki as a physical manifestation around himself, similar in what jinchuriki do, and while Goku may not instantly jump to a state of Super Sayan it is not a stretch to assume that Goku would have some portion of his aura out coming into the fight, this would cause the flame to hit Goku’s aura which Goku could then dissipat causing the flames to land harmlessly around him. Also, Goku is capable of creating actual shield out of his ki, seen in his fight with Cell.

    Now lets look at Susanoo, it is desribe as providing a defense against attacks direted at the user and a means of attack that causes the victim to be afflicted with permanent drunkness by using an etheral blade that was considered unblockable by the ninja of the Naruto world. Now while Goku is not going to go for the planet buster moves , he has never been shown to actually destroy any planets directly, he still has ways around it. The mirror only blocks direct attacks against Itachi and once Goku realises that his attacks aren’t getting though he can start directing ki blasts at the area around Itachi which could either cause distraction, injury from shrapnel or cause injury from the concussive force behind the ki blasts. Now the sword is interesting as it does not actually physically attack a person but attack the spirit of the person which could be a problem for Goku because there is no way of knowing how much ki would act as a defense, but I doubt Goku would allow him be hit by a technique that he has no knowlege about.

    A note about the Mangekyou techniques that are in Itachi’s arsenal and how he uses them. All three a extremely draining techniques and while Itachi is able to use them consecutively is that he does have high levels of chakra each one by themselves take huge chunks out Itachi’s chakra level, put a great deal of strain upon Itachi’s body and cause increasing damage to his eyes with each use. These are not techniques he flings around at the drop of a hat, he only uses them against opponents that he know won’t be effected by any thing less than Itachi’s best or as a last resort. So the concept of either Itachi or Goku would start this fight with their strongest techniques goes counter to both their personalities and their capabilities. Neither of them are going to enter this fight assuming their opponent is a complete weakling, but their also not going to start of using their best abilities because they are both going to assume that it could be countered thus losing the element of surprise, so their both going to be testing each other long before either one unleashes a fight ending attack.

    Goku is not a complete moron, in many ways he is alot like Naruto. What both these character lack in traditional intelligence, both show tremendous ability to form battle field tactics, and show tremendous intelligence when it comes to combat and all things relating to it. Unlike Naruto, and many other characters, Goku is not afflicted by hubris, he knows his strengths and weaknesses, and has been shown to work with both in order to come out the victor of fights against opponents who were thought to be stronger.

  86. Envoy
    Feb 12 - 7:32 pm

    @Darkblade, Whacko, C.A.W.

    “First of all chakra and ki are not the same and do not funtion the same. Chakra is form by the mixing of spiritual engergy and physical energy and then flows through the body in a similar fashion as the cardiavasular system. Ki or chi, is just described as life energy in DBZ and never describes any form of energy mixture what so ever so we have to assume that Chakra and Ki are distinct from each other. This would make genjutsu of any form against Goku useless because Goku lacks chakra. By this arguement though Goku would not beable to sense Itachi for the same reasons, this would allow Itachi to the ability to hide and fight like a ninja should, not this open battlefield nonsense. Also Goku can only sense weak ki signatures easily if he is familiar with them such as with Bulma or Chi-chi.”
    I disagree:
    1) Both chakra and Ki are stated to be in ALL living beings.

    2) Both do “mystical” things, Goku has mind read, and naruto has everything else.

    3) Naruto’s sage mode has the same life sensing capabilities as goku normally does, albeit weaker than goku’s, it also gives naruto enhanced durability(sounds familiar?), and can be used with his jutsus.

    They should both have ki and/or chakra. I prefer that the two are the same with only diferent names.

    Amatseratsu has been stated to burn EVERYTHING for seven days, and has even been rumored to be the fires of hell, goku is not immune to fire, nor has he ever been(neither has any other saiyian), he could most likely outrun it, but if it catches him he WILL die.

    Susanoo is nearly the same, goku has a soul, so its souls stealing sword would work on goku no matter how durable he is physically, he dosent have soul defense. The miror of yata, his sheild has the ability to reflect anything back at its user, it has stated and shown “anything”, goku’s attacks are “something” they can be blocked.

    The problem is speed, as itachi’s attacks are not fast enough to catch goku, so he could just IT over to itachi and facepunch him, or outrun amatseratsu and do the same.

  87. cyborg pirate ninja jesus
    Feb 12 - 9:11 pm

    “Susanoo is nearly the same, goku has a soul, so its souls stealing sword would work on goku no matter how durable he is physically”

    gotta disagree there…..unless the sword only attacks the soul and doesnt have to do anything to the flesh(which im not sure of) it wont do anything.. goku did block a sword attack with his figers from another supersaiyan

  88. Envoy
    Feb 12 - 9:27 pm

    “gotta disagree there…..unless the sword only attacks the soul and doesnt have to do anything to the flesh(which im not sure of) it wont do anything.. goku did block a sword attack with his figers from another supersaiyan”

    The sword dosent have a physical form, it seals souls, it even sucked up orchimaru and his hydras into it, goku gets hit by it and he’s done, but he’s just to fast for that.

  89. cyborg pirate ninja jesus
    Feb 12 - 9:33 pm

    ahhh thanks for the clarification

  90. C.A.W.
    Feb 14 - 1:44 am

    Maybe functionally Ki and Chakra are the same but I think that they are different enough structurally that Goku’s sensing ability and Itachi’s Genjutsu would, at the very least be less effective. Even if caught in a genjutsu, assuming it worked, Goku is observant enough when in a battle, that he would notice something off, and concievably break it or find a way around it. There are several ways in which Goku can work around a genjutsu. Goku has the ability to sense people, since Itachi would be using chakra to form and maintain the technique so he would not be suppressing it, that rules out invisibility or desguise. Genjutsu that are used on Goku’s friends or families should be ruled out all together because that would count as outside help, this is a one v. one. Goku could also just power up, while this may or may not break an illusion itself the power up should effect Itachi enough that Itachi would break the genjutsu by destroying his concetation or feeding chakra into the technique, considering the effects alot of his power ups have on the surrounding area, I can see Itachi being affected. This also goes with Tsukiyomi as well because Goku’s fist instinct will be to power up which would force Itachi to break the technique himeself. The thing about Amaterasu is that it would be hitting his aura or ki sheild which can just be dispersed preventing the fire from actually hitting him.

  91. brandonr
    Feb 18 - 8:26 pm

    i might as well put in my two cents. Here’s what i think… Itachi has only three attacks that we’ve seen that could potentially do harm to Goku. The first of course is the tsukyunomi which would cripple Goku mentally, perhaps rendering him unconscious. (keep in mind this is assuming that Goku HAS chakra because chakra is necessary in the opponent for a genjutsu to work since genjutsu has to do with disrupting the opponents chakra.) Now if it does work goku will most likely pass out and power down from any super saiyan form to a normal form. Goku can’t resist tsukyunomi if he has chakra it’s stupid that people try and say he can he has shown no such feat to imply this and fighting against chakra based illusions is something he has never even conceived let alone prepared for. From here on Itachi has amaterasu and susanoo’s sword. Amaterasu is supposedly unable to be put out and can burn through anything… but if that were true wouldn’t the fire left at the uchiha hideout during sasuke’s battle with itachi burn through the planet? Amaterasu is powerful but overrated and against someone who can tank planet busting attacks i don’t believe it would burn through goku’s skin. Now, the sword that itachi’s susanoo wields is his best option. This i believe WILL be effective against goku, and it will seal him in another dimension. Goku might be able to escape from the dimension since weaker beings have breaken through dimensinoal barriers on the show before, but most likely he wouldn’t because he would also be in a genjutsu. THAT is the ONLY way itachi is winning this fight. IF goku has chakra, and IF goku decides to talk to itachi before the fight giving him time to use tsukyunomi, itachi will most likely win. However if goku knows of the technique beforehand or just decides to speedblitz itachi without a conversation, it is all over and goku will undoubtedly win. That’s all there is to this fight goku is to fast and too invulnerable for itachi to try anything other than the sealing technique (susanoos sword) and his mind rape technique (tsukyunomi).

  92. Envoy
    Feb 20 - 1:53 am

    @C.A.W.
    “Maybe functionally Ki and Chakra are the same but I think that they are different enough structurally that Goku’s sensing ability and Itachi’s Genjutsu would, at the very least be less effective.”
    Eh, thats your opinion, the definitions of ki and chakra are the same, thier uses are the only thing the makes them diferent.

    “Even if caught in a genjutsu, assuming it worked, Goku is observant enough when in a battle, that he would notice something off, and concievably break it or find a way around it.”
    This is where we agree,goku has enough energy to outdo the tailed beasts, his ki levels would need hardly any charging to cause a big enough change to shater any of itachi’s genjutsu.
    “There are several ways in which Goku can work around a genjutsu. Goku has the ability to sense people, since Itachi would be using chakra to form and maintain the technique so he would not be suppressing it, that rules out invisibility or desguise.”
    If we could all agree on ki-chakra. then itachi could NOT hide, ki is someone’s “life energy” as long as you’re alive you have it. Goku senses this stuff across the universe even when its faint.
    “Genjutsu that are used on Goku’s friends or families should be ruled out all together because that would count as outside help, this is a one v. one.”
    No one sugested this, but you’re right; The plan was that goku would be show the deaths of his freinds and family.
    “This also goes with Tsukiyomi as well because Goku’s fist instinct will be to power up which would force Itachi to break the technique himeself. The thing about Amaterasu is that it would be hitting his aura or ki sheild which can just be dispersed preventing the fire from actually hitting him.”
    I’ve never seen Goku actually use the ki sheild on his own, while fused yes, but not singularily, when did he do it by himself?

    @brandonr
    “Now if it does work goku will most likely pass out and power down from any super saiyan form to a normal form. Goku can’t resist tsukyunomi if he has chakra it’s stupid that people try and say he can he has shown no such feat to imply this and fighting against chakra based illusions is something he has never even conceived let alone prepared for.”
    If the illusion does work, then either chakra=ki or they have energies they shouldnt have. If it does work, almost any change in goku’s ki would shater the illusion. Ki levels are closely tied to emotion, if itachi shows goku anything that gets him worked up, he could instictivly move his power levels. Goku wouldnt notice the change in energy, but itachi would.

    “Amaterasu is supposedly unable to be put out and can burn through anything… but if that were true wouldn’t the fire left at the uchiha hideout during sasuke’s battle with itachi burn through the planet?”
    Amatseratsu burns for seven days before going out, read up buddy.

    “Amaterasu is powerful but overrated and against someone who can tank planet busting attacks i don’t believe it would burn through goku’s skin.”
    I’d like to se a source for goku, or any sayian being immune to fire. Gohan dodged dabura’s flames, lava threatened to kill goku on namek, ect. Amatseratsu would work, why? It is stated to be able to burn ANYTHING.

    “Now, the sword that itachi’s susanoo wields is his best option. This i believe WILL be effective against goku, and it will seal him in another dimension. Goku might be able to escape from the dimension since weaker beings have breaken through dimensinoal barriers on the show before, but most likely he wouldn’t because he would also be in a genjutsu. ”
    The sword absorbed the 8 heads of the hydra, even if goku dosent have chakra, he’s gonna get pulled in should this blade make contact. Too bad goku is WAAAAAY to fast for itachi.

  93. uchiha
    Feb 20 - 11:44 am

    have you guys heard when itachi says that only someone with the same eyes as he can beat him.

  94. uchiha
    Feb 20 - 11:58 am

    and also itachi is just one of the characters with the mangekyou sharingan have you forgot about madara uchiha madara is way stronger than itachi and theres no doubt that madara can destroy goku with?

  95. Nintendopwns
    Feb 20 - 12:11 pm

    “That is parting from the concept that Chakra and Ki are not one and the same, something that is still HIGHLY arguable. I am currently bussy, but I will come back with my reference and proof that these two forces are indeed the same.” They are no where near the same.Ki is physical energy.
    Chakra is spiritual energy.
    They have similar effects, But there power depends on the host.

  96. Envoy
    Feb 20 - 1:23 pm

    @uchiha
    You havent been reading then, have you?

    @nintendopwns
    I disagree, if you’re alive you have ki in DBZ universe. If you’re alive you have chakra in the naruto universe. They are BOTH tied to the users life, every creature, human or not(exept andriods, kinda) has this energy.

  97. uchiha
    Feb 20 - 1:43 pm

    well goku is poweful but theres no way he can beat itachi or madara

  98. Envoy
    Feb 20 - 1:48 pm

    “well goku is poweful but theres no way he can beat itachi or madara”
    why do you think that?

  99. Envoy
    Feb 22 - 3:31 pm

    Anyway, Itachi wins….all in favor!?

  100. Matapiojo
    Feb 22 - 3:45 pm

    “Anyway, Itachi wins….all in favor!?”

    /raises hand

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