What if…the Archadian Empire (Final Fantasy XII) invaded Hyrule?

What If the Archadian Empire invaded Hyrule

Would Link and company be able to defend their home turf?
Would Hyrule have anything to counter the Air Fleets?
How long would the invasion take?
What other issues would arise?

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59 Comments on "What if…the Archadian Empire (Final Fantasy XII) invaded Hyrule?"

  1. Scenario February 12, 2009 at 8:25 am -      #1

    Air fleets, huh? Well there are the Rito and Ganondorf’s army has plenty of flying enemies. I doubt they could do much against a ship, though.

  2. Tim February 12, 2009 at 11:11 am -      #2

    Yes! Thanks for putting this up admin. I think that the Archadians would probably conquer most of Hyrule quite quickly(although not the parts where the Gorons,or Ganondorf and his armies live). But that eventually Link and possibly a few others(maybe even Ganondorf) would start to retake the territory back from them in the way that he(Link) usually does with the villians in Zelda games.

  3. Cpt Olimar February 12, 2009 at 4:01 pm -      #3

    Hey Tim, my bro is playing FF12, and I’ve seen him play some of it, but what exactly is the tech that the Arcadian army has at their disposal?

  4. Naki February 12, 2009 at 5:29 pm -      #4

    They have Magic, Musket like guns, Swords, Spears, bows etc.. Their ships however are extremely powerful. Well it would be tough. But i would give it to the empire just by sheer numbers..

  5. =[BF]=JimmieRox February 12, 2009 at 5:39 pm -      #5

    Death will fall on Hyrule and Link will die, don’t even argue, just accept!

  6. Scenario February 12, 2009 at 9:26 pm -      #6

    I think if they got serious, the races of Hyrule(+Ganondorf’s army) could dominate the Archadian Empire’s ground forces. The Air Fleet would be significantly harder, unless a Biggoron plucks them from the sky.

    Imagine a Goron. Now imagine that Goron 50 times bigger, tossing other Gorons at ships, on fire. Throw in a few dragons (Valoo, Vovolgia and Argarok being the only ones I can name right now) and Wizzrobes teleporting small strike forces inside ships and you have a credible threat. Said strike forces will consist of Gerudo thieves and Sheikah ninja, or a death squad of Darknuts, Stalfos, or Redeads.

    Hyrule would put up one hell of a fight.

  7. L-W February 12, 2009 at 10:28 pm -      #7

    The Archadian Imperial military is a fairly standard affair, employing vast quantities of armoured swordsman, Hoplites, archers, magicians, summoners, gunpowder based projectiles and artillery, trained Dogs (Used in a variety of combat roles) and a near finite amount of combat Droids and A.I. operated war machines.

    Their commanders, the Archadian Judges, are the self-proclaimed guardians of law and order in the Archadian Empire. They are also the elite guards of House Solidor and some of the best soldiers in existence. Just one of them requiring inordinate amounts of damage and firepower to incapacitate.

    But it all pales in comparison to the might of the their air superiority. The Archadian Air fleet is not something to be trifled with; and for all the power present in Hyrule, there is nothing that can compete with the Sky Fortress Bahamut, their ultimate airship.

    finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Sky_Fortress_Bahamut

    Coupled with their ability to artificially replicate Manufacted Nethicite, small handful of which can generate nuclear scale explosions, makes them to be a formidable occupying force.

    – – –

    Heck, with Venat supporting the Archadians, the outcome of this occupation could be quite successful.

  8. Cpt Olimar February 12, 2009 at 10:46 pm -      #8

    Hmm, I think this scenario actually is a relatively close one, at least compared to some others. Link donning fierce deity is going to be tough to put down. But no matter how strong he is, he cant be everywhere at once, while archadia easily has the numbers to be everywhere in the hyrule area. Interesting match-up. I’ll give archadia the edge. Especially at the beginning. If they can somehow kill link, its all over, otherwise… hmm who knows! More people need to comment!

  9. L-W February 13, 2009 at 1:07 am -      #9

    Let us not forget that Archadia are the occupying forces. Even if Link was proving to be a threat (As Olimar mentioned, he can only be in one area at a time), occupying Military forces as strict as the Archadian military have ‘measures’ to deal with resistance and subversion amongst the local populations.

    Decimation, mass-execution, trade blockades, starvation, round-ups, concentration camps, imprisonment, extortion, slavery or even genocide are not beyond the means of the Archadians. If Link keeps fighting, he may find that even if the occupying forces abandon Hyrule, he would be the only one left alive. Whilst all around him lie vast fields of corpses, mass graves, empty concentration camps (Maybe a few half starved beggars here and there on the verge of death), entire villages razed to the ground and the Earth salted so that it would remain barren and forever infertile.

  10. Cpt Olimar February 13, 2009 at 1:25 pm -      #10

    definitely agreed. The more I think about it, the more opportunity Archadia has. The Various zelda bosses can only hold up for so long. Even if Link never dies, L-W made a good point about the rest of hyrule dying. Although I’m sure that after Hyrule’s destruction, Archadia will just leave instead of staying to get owned by Link, assuming he is still alive. I am going to just shout out some numbers and say that archadia has a 90% chance of being able to completely annihilate Hyrule and leave with respectable cansualities. They have to screw up to not win this, which isn’t completely out of the question.

    One a side note, how strong are the judges. It’s pretty difficult to get actual strength from an RPG for obvious reasons but my bro owned the one judge who attack the refuge camps with like one quickening and a few hits. I dont know if he was overleveled or whatever, but could link defeat them?

  11. The Chosen One February 13, 2009 at 4:51 pm -      #11

    Link would probally be sent on some quest by someone powerful to find some artifact to vanquish the enemies.

  12. Tim February 13, 2009 at 5:41 pm -      #12

    @ Cpt Olimar: it does sound like your brother was overleveled when he fought that judge. They(the judges) are all strong fighters but I don’t see them proving to be a huge problem to Link considering what he can do and indeed has done.

    I don’t think all of Hyrule would be destroyed or even neccesserely conquered by Archadia, people like the Gorons would be able to resist the invasion and would provide refuge for they’re hylian allies. Plus, as Scenario put it the peoples of Hyrule could put up an amazing fight if they got serious, espiecially if the good forces teamed up with the bad forces.

    Finally, L-W I don’t think the Archadian Empire are quite as nasty as you make them out to be, as powerful yes, but not as nasty.

  13. =[BF]=JimmieRox February 13, 2009 at 5:43 pm -      #13

    Link will die, he will be found and killed. He will be, there is no doubt about it. Anybody or anything the invaders see as a credible threat will be hunted down and killed. Even if they ignore the midget, once he stirs the nest the hornets will descend!

  14. L-W February 13, 2009 at 8:53 pm -      #14

    “Finally, L-W I don’t think the Archadian Empire are quite as nasty as you make them out to be, as powerful yes, but not as nasty.”

    Nastiness has nothing to do with it, so I suggest you find an alternate modifier.

    Are we still talking about the same Archadian Empire who upon refusal of entry, destroyed an ancient and sacred monastery and bombed the outlying and defenseless refugee populations? Or were willing to destroy a major and heavily populated Capital City to prevent an enemy fleet from capturing it? How about turning a city into a zombie infested swamp where no living soul can ever hope to exist? Or gave the local populations the offer of “absolute surrender” or “absolute destruction”?

    Both the Judges and the Archadian Imperial family (House Solidor son Vayne Carudas Solidor) can prove to be very aggressive players if their dominance is continually threatened, as with any Empire (Anyone with even the most basic grasp of military history would know this to be true) they will use exponential degrees of force to subjugate local populations and discourage insurgent activity.

    If, IF, they are forced to retreat from their occupied position, they would use their extensive fleet to perform a scorched earth policy, denying the Hyrulians the chance to return to their former homes even if liberated.

    As for the statement by – =[BF]=JimmieRox in the above, I couldn’t have said it better myself. Occupying forces always seek to identify the most likely candidates for dissent and insurgency and would no doubt target Link for arrest, capture or outright execution immediatly. I would hate to be at his trial if the Archadians ever do capture him alive.

  15. oscar February 13, 2009 at 9:48 pm -      #15

    Link would use the giants mask and destroy those faggots wit help of dragons biggoron and minions of ganon

  16. =[BF]=JimmieRox February 14, 2009 at 10:41 am -      #16

    Yes, of course they would be able to destroy them, they only have numbers and technology on their side. Those Air Fleets would easily be destroyed by the shock wave caused when Link claps his tiny little elven hands. It’s not like the Bahamut’s mist cannon would have any effect on anything at all!

    *Mashes sarcasm button*

  17. Tim February 14, 2009 at 1:25 pm -      #17

    @ =[BF]=JimmieRox: You seem to think Link is short, this makes me assume you havent played many Zelda games. Sure as a child Link is small but if you play him as an adult he is is around six feet tall and if you consider someone who is six foot to be short then you must be a giant.

    P.S. Link is a Hylian not an elf.

  18. Tim February 14, 2009 at 1:49 pm -      #18

    @ L-W: Ok your right about them being bad but there is no way they would catch Link so easily.

    Also you still haven’t mentioned how they would defeat the gorons or any of the other peoples in Hyrule other than the Hylians themselves, and you keep saying that Archadia have already occupied Hyrule when this is about the invasion. You still havent proven that they would win. I’m not sure they would, not with the help of Ganondorf and his forces anyway.

    P.S. Something tells me you dislike the The Legend of Zelda series as I don’t think iv’e ever seen you take it’s side or even make a good comment about it.

  19. Cpt Olimar February 14, 2009 at 6:15 pm -      #19

    Tim my friend, L-W actually likes Zelda game, or so he has said in other threads. Don’t go jumping on the assumption boat just yet. Gorons are typically unequipped tribal groups who probably look a lot stronger than they reallyare. Sure, they will roll down from a superior defensive position as an inital advantage, but we are talking about people with swords, the few large specimen of gorons will prove to be difficult, however.

    Ganon’s army is an entirely different story. This will be archadia’s biggest problem (Once again, Link cannot stop an entire invasion as he cannot be in multiple areas at one time, so he is the 2nd biggest threat)

    I am going to say that archadia SHOULD be able to win this battle, but there is always a chance that they could screw it up, or ganon could pull some clever trick from his sleeve (how are those bosses created anyways….)

  20. The Chosen One February 14, 2009 at 8:50 pm -      #20

    Final Fantasy is at the disadvantage because they are from a terrible game.
    ECK Final Fantasy.

  21. L-W February 14, 2009 at 9:43 pm -      #21

    Ah, another classic Timfail.

    “Ok your right about them being bad but there is no way they would catch Link so easily.”

    They don’t have to look for him, they just have to wait for him. No doubt Link, desperate to prove his courage, would walk into an ambush eventually. What do you think the Gestapo were responsible for, or the NKVD for that matter? How do you propose occupying forces in history have ever hunted vigilantes?

    “Also you still haven’t mentioned how they would defeat the gorons or any of the other peoples in Hyrule other than the Hylians themselves”

    Why haven’t I mentioned it? Because I don’t have to. Why should the Archadians have to subvert every primitive tribe, especially when a decent blast from a Leviathan Mist cannon would do wonders to quash indigenous tribes and carpet bomb them from the history books. They are only after the Hyrulians, read the scenario again.

    “and you keep saying that Archadia have already occupied Hyrule when this is about the invasion”

    What do you think an invasion is? Are they doing it for fun? Are they committing themselves to a large scale Imperial war because they lost a bet with Rabanastre?

    The clue is in the title. It’s an Imperial invasion, they wish to subvert local populations, maintain control over vital resources and absorb Hyrule into the Archadian Empire. This requires a full blown military occupation until the transferal of an independent power as a client state is complete.

    “Something tells me you dislike the The Legend of Zelda series as I don’t think iv’e ever seen you take it’s side or even make a good comment about it.”

    Is jumping to baseless assumptions all you’re ever good for?

  22. Scenario February 14, 2009 at 10:09 pm -      #22

    Archadia’s largest problems will likely be:
    1. Active opposition from a seemingly endless army that leaves no remains when defeated, consists of giant monsters, some of which fly, and are skilled in weapons, magic, and the building of giant fortresses.
    2. A lone elf that seems to be cutting his way through their forces and is somehow getting inside their ships.
    3. A race of rock creatures that are immune to swords and fire who live in a volcano that is too hot to enter and is continuously erupting.
    4. Guerrilla tactics from a race that keeps retreating into the sea.
    5. Portals to another dimension opening up and releasing a second dark army every night.
    6. People taking refuge in innumerable ancient temples that are scattered randomly around the landscape.

    You are fighting Hyrule on it’s turf, and if these people get serious they will fight back.

  23. Jon February 15, 2009 at 1:58 am -      #23

    When the going gets tough FFXII characters can cast Reverse on themselves and get healed by the enemies attacks.lol.

    Organize those gambits Archadia!
    My suggestions (in no particular priority):
    Cast Ally: Protect, Bubble, Shell, Faith, Bravery, Float, Regen, Haste, Arise/Raise and Esuna.
    Target Ally Target Enemy: Attack, Blind, Poison, Petrify, Scathe, Disease, Slow, Silence, Confusion, Berserk, and Doom.
    Target Enemy Goron: Any non-fire offensive magicks. (especially water)
    Target Enemy Zora: Fire, Thunder, Blizzard (insta-kills lol)
    Target Enemy (Evil): Holy
    Target Enemy Undead: Holy, Cure, Raise.
    Target Enemy Flying: Any projectile weapon, magick, or Telekenesis.

    Or just utterly bombard all resistance with your war machines and magicks of mass destruction (while locking down magic users with fun nethicite).

    Hyrule and Link better be praying for some deus ex machina…..

  24. Tim February 15, 2009 at 8:30 am -      #24

    Sorry for making assumptions L-W, it just did seem to me that you didn’t like the Zelda series that much.

    However, regarding the other things I said I am not as wrong as you and Cpt Olimar are making me out to be.

    “They don’t have to look for him, they just have to wait for him. No doubt Link, desperate to prove his courage, would walk into an ambush eventually. What do you think the Gestapo were responsible for, or the NKVD for that matter? How do you propose occupying forces in history have ever hunted vigilantes?”

    I know they would set up ambushes for Link but do you really think they can catch him all that easily? It’s not like they are after some random resistance leader, Link’s skills and power would be good enough to beat the best they can throw at him and escape.

    “Why haven’t I mentioned it? Because I don’t have to. Why should the Archadians have to subvert every primitive tribe, especially when a decent blast from a Leviathan Mist cannon would do wonders to quash indigenous tribes and carpet bomb them from the history books. They are only after the Hyrulians, read the scenario again. ”

    Gorons, Zoras and the other races in Hyrule ARE Hyrulians, anyone who lives in Hyrule is a Hyrulian. You are getting Hyrulians mixed up with Hylians(the humans who live there that have pointy ears), and the Hylians are not the only people living in Hyrule. The Archadians would have to fight all of them and that would be harder to do then just firing a Mist cannon.
    Gorons are actually one of the more advanced people in Hyrule, they are: master smiths able to create powerful weapons, tools and explosives, and have advanced mining equipment including magnetic technology, lifts and other similarily technologically advanced things.

    While I’m on this subject, Cpt Olimar you said:

    “Gorons are typically unequipped tribal groups who probably look a lot stronger than they reallyare. Sure, they will roll down from a superior defensive position as an inital advantage, but we are talking about people with swords”

    Gorons don’t need to be equipped with with weapons they are super strong and can simply pummel thier opponents with thier fists. They are also incredibly resistant to damage so swords, guns and other similar weapons will have very little effect. They can also continue rolling indefinetly and could just continually smash the Achadian troops out of the way by rolling into them again and again.

    Now back to L-W: I know what an invasion is, what I mean is that when you invade a country you have to fight for it, you don’t immedietly have complete control over it. Hyrule would fight back and the invasion might fail before they can begin to occupy large areas of territory in Hyrule.

    (Whoa, I’ve just realised that’s the longest post i’ve ever written!)

  25. L-W February 15, 2009 at 9:42 am -      #25

    Mor of the blather I’ve come to expect from you Tim.

    “I know they would set up ambushes for Link but do you really think they can catch him all that easily? It’s not like they are after some random resistance leader, Link’s skills and power would be good enough to beat the best they can throw at him and escape.”

    No one is in infallible and even the best lose eventually. But even if Link refused to cooperate, guess who is going to suffer? The Archadians and their finite source of manpower, magical summons, droids and airships?

    Or the civilians of Hyrule, rounded up, forced to sign written statements and executed publicly in nationwide demonstrations? Apparently you didn’t get the previous implication so I’ll repeat it AGAIN. If Link refuses to cooperate and resists the Archadian occupation (He can’t be everywhere at once), the Empire is going to make people suffer on his behalf. Friends, family, random elements or even those caught speaking to him are going to be captured, tortured, trialled and forced to make public statements regarding the immorality of the resistance. Finally they’ll be publicly executed as a show of deterrence.

    That’s what occupying armies do when dealing with rogue elements. If they cannot capture the wanted vigilantes themselves, they punish the people. Effectively swaying the resolve of the vigilante in question towards guilt and to further deter the native occupants from assisting the resistance in any way shape or form.

    Take a look at your history before making further comments upon Imperial actions.

    “The Archadians would have to fight all of them and that would be harder to do then just firing a Mist cannon.”

    Your ignorance is outstanding on most occasions, but now it is just extraordinary to say the least. A Mist cannon is a ship mounted or stationary magical ordinance delivery artillery platform powered by manufacted Nethicite, a single blast of which can destroy whole Cities and unleash explosions so great that they permanently alter the geography of an entire landscape for time immemorial. Preventing even life itself from returning to the damaged areas.

    They are the equivalent of the Archadian weapon of mass destruction, unleashing unholy quantities of magic with each shot so powerful that they render the ground it touches into a Zombie infested Mist swamp where only the most vile of beasts can withstand to survive. Whoever you are, Hylian, Goron or Zora, a Mist Cannon fired at even the lowest of calibers is going to ruin your day.

    And this is once again an instance of you failing to understand even the basic principles of warfare. You never have to fight the total sum of the enemy, just the vital areas so that any further resistance would be futile at best. The Archadians, being masters of Imperial expansionism, would recognize and base the actions of their invasion from this fact.

    So any invasion of Hyrule could be completed quite easily without having to even land troops to dispel the Gorons, just taking vital and strategic areas would be enough to scatter them quickly and without casualty. The Mist Cannons though would be incredibly useful in carpet bombing them back to hell at great ranges.

    But once again I have to ask you this question. Why would the Archadians have to attack the Gorons when:
    A) They primarily seek to control population areas suited for their habitation (I.e. Not Mountains)?
    B) The Gorons are not a direct threat to the invasion unless they actively started to engage areas of of Archadian control?

    “Now back to L-W: I know what an invasion is, what I mean is that when you invade a country you have to fight for it, you don’t immedietly have complete control over it. Hyrule would fight back and the invasion might fail before they can begin to occupy large areas of territory in Hyrule.”

    /facepalm.

    The entire sentence in the above is full of fail, starting with:

    1) When you invade a country you IMMEDIATELY start to occupy it; by placating local population centers, garrisoning local troops, disbanding Government authority, performing raids and inquiries, trials, localizing key areas of resistance, searching for weapons cache’s and most importantly fortifying your position in case forward lines are compromised. That’s what an occupation is, and the moment they step foot off their barges, even if they are still fighting elsewhere in some distant part of Hyrule, captured areas are under military occupation.

    What? Do you wait until the war is completely over to start the occupation? Do you allow civilians the time to arm, flee or perform guerrilla raids? Do you fail to capture the local Government authorities and allow them the opportunity to escape and continue to oppose you openly? Do you give members of the Military or local Police forces the opportunity to escape, rearm and join their comrades or to subvert authority? How about failing to fortify your position and allow your enemies to waltz back in and re-fortify their former defensive positions? Or resuscitating the agricultural and industrial base so that the civilians don’t starve to death whilst your still fighting a war?

    Please don’t tell me you intend to be placed in a position of authority.

    Jesus Christ almighty, I thought this point was pretty simple to understand? Then why have I just had to repeat it to you? Again!

    2) The land of Hyrule isn’t that large, no greater in size than the whole of Ivalice, which Archadia was literally two steps away from conquering if the war with Rozzaria had not been stalled by a plot contrivance. The fact is that the Archadian Empire is an incredibly large and populous system of protectorate former client Governments and populations marshaled under a single uniting banner of law, order and civilization. It is far too much of an organized system of rule to simply wander blindly into the organically run world of Hyrule.

    And once again, they don’t have to take total control over the entire landmass to assure dominance, just the key areas to deprive a tactical advantage to any opposing forces. For example, they don’t need the Mountains, the mountains would be inhospitable to the average Archadian (Human) Imperial servant and therefore meaningless to occupy or contest control over. It would be a waste.

    They need towns, villages and Cities. They need population centers, agriculture and industry to start their subversion of local territories and Government. They have no need to contest control of the Mountains (Especially since they have Aerial superiority), therefore the only reason they have to engage the Gorons are if the Gorons decided they would start rolling down the Mountains and attack defensive positions.

    If so, a good bombing run from the Leviathan fleet would send those Gorons rolling back to where they came from, wishing they never set foot from their caves.

    – – –

    Try and gain even the slightest grasp of what an invasion entails before discussing or even attempting (And failing) to rebut my posts in future.

  26. Scenario February 15, 2009 at 12:29 pm -      #26

    You’re right, Link can’t be everywhere at once. He can, however, be in four places at once. Any executions will likely be foiled by at least one Link, who will teleport in, slaughter any Archadian soldiers, and help citizenry escape to nearby temples.

    The Gorons, being prideful, will almost certainly attack. They’ll go into full on war production mode, outfitting themselves with metal implants and armor like that one from Twilight Princess. Then there are the Biggorons, some of which are as tall as mountains.

  27. x on February 15, 2009 at 2:32 pm -      #27

    Scenario are you a idiot? Link dies along with every thing else in Hyrule happy now? or do you want to go cry?cuz if you want to know what happins read what
    L-W wrote if you can’t read then i feel sorry for you.

  28. EnigmaJ February 15, 2009 at 2:34 pm -      #28

    like L-W said, when they see the effects of one mist shot, they be like “oh shit!” and run back to thier caves. it would be suicide

  29. =[BF]=JimmieRox February 15, 2009 at 3:54 pm -      #29

    I have never played a Zelda game, the main reason is that the only Nintendo product I ever owned was a Gameboy Advance SP I got for Christmas one year and a couple of games (Max Payne, Crash Bandicoot 2 and the Lord of the Rings: The Third Age).

  30. Cpt Olimar February 15, 2009 at 3:58 pm -      #30

    Hmm, I wonder if Link might pull a “majora’s Mask” on the archadians and keep going back in time while continuing to destroy more and more stuff. According to how Link went back in time in MM, some things are “saved” while travelling back. I wonder this kind of “Time-guerilla” tactics might accomplish.

    And Jon, just so you know… Link’s mirror shield would reflect all the negatiive attack back on their party, so that would be very bad for them lol.

    So…. Archadia will have a successful invasion. The only question left is, against incomparable odds, can Link lift the invasion singlehandedly?

  31. =[BF]=JimmieRox February 15, 2009 at 4:04 pm -      #31

    Argh, didn’t mean to do that! Wasn’t finished!

    Anyway, the Archadians could use their fighter wings as ground attack and chew up the Gorons.

  32. Tim February 15, 2009 at 4:58 pm -      #32

    @ Cpt Olimar: that time guerilla tactics idea is genius and the Achadians really have no way to counter it. Link could even go back to before the invasion and begin to assasinate Achadian leaders before they could attack. With thier leaders dead the empire would begin to crumble into disorder and chaos and be at threat from outside attacks and rebellion within it’s existing empire.

    L-W, I don’t think you understand what I meant for several of the things I said before but I can’t be bothered to explain them to you as I don’t think there is ever any point in trying to persuade you against what you have chosen to win a fight. I may change my opinion about this if you can prove that you don’t need to insult me or other people when proving our arguments wrong. I don’t mind being proven wrong but I don’t like being insulted, several times i’ve wanted to insult you back but I realised that I don’t need to stoop to that level to get my point across. Now I expect you will just insult me on what I have just said and in a way I hope you do as that will prove my point that you can’t prove someone wrong without insulting them.

  33. Scenario February 15, 2009 at 6:05 pm -      #33

    “Scenario are you a idiot? Link dies along with every thing else in Hyrule happy now? or do you want to go cry?cuz if you want to know what happins read what
    L-W wrote if you can’t read then i feel sorry for you.”

    Hey now, no need to flame. Let’s all fight each other in a civilized manner. But alright, let’s say Link dies. Ganondorf takes the opportunity to steal his Triforce. Then, he takes Zelda’s and ascends to near godhood. He uses his new divine power to wipe the Archadian empire out of existence and take over Hyrule. Then the gods flood it and Windwaker happens.

    End result: Invasion successful. Occupation, not so much.

  34. EnigmaJ February 15, 2009 at 6:14 pm -      #34

    Theres not much for LW to say. You havent attempted to dipute what he last said.

  35. L-W February 15, 2009 at 7:22 pm -      #35

    “L-W, I don’t think you understand what I meant for several of the things I said before but I can’t be bothered to explain them to you as I don’t think there is ever any point in trying to persuade you against what you have chosen to win a fight.”

    As I told you previously I select a stance based on the most logical conclusion I can fathom based on the information I garner from all parties prior to posting:

    My current stance being that the Archadian Empire is too large and too organized a magically inclined military system with absolute Aerial supremacy, and whilst individual ‘hero’ characters are certainly powerful opponents (But in my opinion nothing that full blown military envoy cannot repel) they are too few in number and are in such a strategically defunct disposition that their attempts at reprisal will be seen as guerrilla raids against well fortified positions.

    – – –

    But if you’re convictions are so strong Tim, you have to argue for the sake of them. I can and will listen to logical coherence, but nothing you’ve said so far would leave me inclined to think so, and the ‘brilliant’ points that I’ve so bluntly and callously overlooked must be so steeped in subtlety that even a man so versed in linguistics such as myself would overlook thinking that there was a total absence of subtext.

    *Sarcasm*

    But I intend to call your bluff on this matter, put up or shut up.

  36. L-W February 15, 2009 at 7:37 pm -      #36

    “The Gorons, being prideful, will almost certainly attack. They’ll go into full on war production mode, outfitting themselves with metal implants and armor like that one from Twilight Princess. Then there are the Biggorons, some of which are as tall as mountains.”

    An assault against well-defended, heavily entrenched, artillery supported, magic wielding garrisons with total uncontested Air Supremacy and a vast fleet of Cruisers, Carriers, Dreadnoughts, Bombers and mobile Fortress ships…

    They have a word for that. Suicide.

  37. Cpt Olimar February 15, 2009 at 11:54 pm -      #37

    Definitely agreed L-W, as a universe, Zelda’s only hope would be if Link was able to get his wish granted. but in this case, both sides have magic to their disposal, so the effect of it here would be even less predictable then in Halo vs Zelda.

    Hyrule’s only hope is for the teleporting back in time thing that Link did in Majora’s Mask. And even that may not be enough.

  38. L-W February 16, 2009 at 12:19 am -      #38

    Would it not be a horrible irony if the Triforce wish that was destined to bring peace and prosperity to Hyrule was in fact the cause of the direct intervention of Archadia, who introduce law, order and true civility to the Hylians; placating evil where Link has failed on so many occasions.

    What a kick in the nuts that would be.

  39. Space marine February 16, 2009 at 1:26 am -      #39

    Um, Yes. Hyrule is doomed if It is occupied.

  40. Tim February 16, 2009 at 5:19 am -      #40

    I didn’t ever say the points were brilliant L-W but thankyou for not insulting me during that last post directed towards me. I don’t even mind if you start insulting me again now as I just wanted you to prove you could talk to me without also insulting me.

    What I meant by you not understanding me about things was mostly that the invasion by Achadia would be known by those in Hyrule a while before it happens and they would be able to marshall there armies together to try and repel the invasion as it happens. This would mean the Arcadians would have to fight hyrules armies before they could properly begin the occupation. I have thought of how Hyrule could win this battle now as well.

    In the battle or battles the Archadians airships would be their greatest strength against Hyrule however the smaller, fighter type airships could be attacked by Hyrules flying monsters and the larger airsips would be harder to beat, but Hyrule could use it’s people capable of teleportation to get groups of elite troops inside the airships and sabotage them from within. The Archadian soldiers on the ground would probably be evenly matched with several of Hyrules troop types(Hylian soldiers, Zora soldiers outside the water, etc) but would be easily beaten by some of the others(Gorons, Darknuts, etc) and this is why I think Hyrule would stand a chance of stopping the invasion before the Achadians can properly begin their occupation.

    P.S. You still haven’t countered Cpt Olimar’s “time guerilla” idea.

  41. L-W February 16, 2009 at 10:10 am -      #41

    Why should I counter his arguments? Unlike some of the stuff I’ve seen here posted by others, it’s actually quite plausible and somewhat feasible in some cases. If it wasn’t hindered by the fact that the magical prowess of the Archadians often nullify the effects of opposing magical forces, and that killing the House of Solidor would be a futile gesture, it’s actually a solid plan.

    You could stand to learn a thing or two from Olimar, Tim. Unlike you he has proven his worth and merit when discussing and presenting issues of debate.

    – – –

    The major problems I see with this plan of yours are:

    1) Archadian numbers and total air supremacy grant them absolute logistical control over Hyrule, meaning they can land their entire armies and maintain reserves within the north hemisphere…

    (Archadia would have little to no interest in the southern regions)

    …Without little interference. Whether or not they attain total surprise is of little consequence, the fact that they achieve total supremacy is what determines this outcome. Their ability to travel anywhere unhindered grants them the option to lay a single unifying siege without concerning themselves over beachheads, choke points or even encampments. North Hyrule itself is just one big uncontested landing zone ripe for the taking.

    2) The Hylian Army (Who the Archadians would focus their initial and only efforts upon) as seen in “Occarina of Time” and “Twilight Princess” do not strike me as impressive by any comparison. Whilst composed of professional soldiers and Knights, they are too few to prove too much resistance to even single arm of the Archadian military.

    Even if the Hylian Army bolstered their ranks with Militia and extensive recruitment from local communities, the professional troops of the Archadian Empire (Whose numbers are far greater in scale) continue to employ summoned Beasts and Combat Droids without the expense of their personnel.

    In fact, even if the entire populous of Hylia marshaled their total strength, the sheer technological scale offered by Archadia simply overwhelms them by leaps and bounds. How would the average Hylian defensive fortification hope to contend with an artificially intelligent Rook combat Droid, bomber aircraft traveling in excess of Mach 1, or a ship mounted artillery cannon capable of turning Cities to dust? The armies of Hyrule would fall without a single drop of Archadian blood being spilled.

    3) The Archadian fighter platform, the Draklor CB56 Remora and CB58 Valfarre combat platforms are sentry mounted light fighter and bomber craft. They are not only capable of breaking the sound barrier at their greatest speeds, but have a multitude of air to ground and air to air weapons that provide total coverage even during the midst of heated combat maneuvers against equally resilient craft.

    Not only are they armed to the teeth, but they employ a Mist based barrier overshield that can withstand anything but the most violent of impacts and exchanges.

    How do you propose that even the most hardy of Avian beasts oppose these fighters in direct combat? The best analogy I can claim is an Albatross dueling an F-22.

    4) It would make sense that Hyrulian infiltrators could teleport themselves onboard Archadian vessels…

    …If it wasn’t for the fact that:

    a) Teleportation is limited to only a few areas that are specifically presented within Zelda as being capable of allowing for such methods transportation.
    b) Archadia overcame the issue of infiltrators using teleportation to board vessels by using Manufacted Nethicite powered Octuria Mist shielding, thus ‘blocking’ the passage of any attempts to subjugate the ship and her crew through magical constructs involving the manipulation of said space and time. Essentially nullifying the effects of teleportation.

    In fact it is common for fleets to employ vast numbers of Troops in boarding actions before even contending with the barrage consuming shielding of opposing vessels.

    5) As I mentioned previously you think of war and the subsequent strategy of which in far too simplistic terms. Asymmetrical thought is apparently not your ally. Whilst the Archadians have the advantage in numbers, they also confer to an immediate technological and logistical advantage that pays dividends when fighting such an archaic enemy.

    After all, would you send a modern Battalion of Marines against a hundred armed Militia in open combat? Even though the Marines have a definite advantage, we both know that an air strike would do an even greater job without the cost of casualties. In the same zeal, do you send a lightly armed infantry squad to defeat a Tank, or instead call an Apache to annihilate it from afar with specialized munitions?

    Likewise, the immediate advantages of the Archadian military allow them to determine where and how they wish to strike their opponents and at what strength. Do they soften up their defensive lines with Artillery, or do they overwhelm them with combat Droids and clean up the survivors? Do they magically summon a gargantuan Dragon-like beast to repel any Goron incursion, or simply destroy their mountain homes with repeated blasts from their ship mounted Mist Cannons?

    That’s why I have so much faith in the Archadian Military here, only a fool could fail to successfully lead the Empire to an opening victory.

  42. Cpt Olimar February 16, 2009 at 3:15 pm -      #42

    “Would it not be a horrible irony if the Triforce wish that was destined to bring peace and prosperity to Hyrule was in fact the cause of the direct intervention of Archadia, who introduce law, order and true civility to the Hylians; placating evil where Link has failed on so many occasions.

    What a kick in the nuts that would be.”

    LOL, that is nice irony. I laughed when i read that, especially considering how corrupt the “order” is in archadia, considering the judges at least (I haven’t played the game through so my knowledge is severly limited)

    Indeed, magic vs magic is usually so impossible to determine. Would the final fantasy time altering spells have any effect on Link’s use of the ocarina? Considering it is in Hyrule, I would be more inclined to say that it would still work, however majora’s mask takes place in Termina X_X so…….

    Unless anything especially odd occurs, I give this to Archadia. Although weird things always happen in Hyrule.

  43. Tim February 17, 2009 at 1:15 pm -      #43

    I think I may finally have to accept defeat here L-W, as Cpt Olimar said: “Unless anything especially odd occurs” I think Archadia should win this. However it would make a good Zelda game if Link went off on a quest to find allies for Hyrule and a way to free it from Archadian control through some means we don’t know about. Maybe he could even team up with the Final Fantasy XII protagonists and help them too.

  44. Spartan G44 February 22, 2009 at 8:58 pm -      #44

    Depends, If Gannodorf teams with Hyrule. If so Hyrule Might Stand a Chance.

  45. Battra Boy March 17, 2009 at 2:22 pm -      #45

    Hyrule would get ROFLSTOMPED. :P

  46. Cpt Olimar September 7, 2009 at 8:34 pm -      #46

    Yea, I saw the ending to FFXII with the Bahamut… jeez that battle looked like Star Wars a bit (no don’t go nerd on me ut’s just a broad comparison). This is really screwed up. The going back in time thing would still be a good plan IF the procedure worked (i.e. archadia magic didn’t interfere) since it’s practically impossible to fight back when someone keeps going back in time on you.

    Although… the number of times it would take for Link to go back in Time and successfully defeat the empire to a point of retreat would be so much that the chance of him dying, even to normal soldiers would be high. Normally on this site we take the highest probable situations and ignore low chance things like:
    a) Link trips and gets stabbed
    b) Link accidentally cuts himself
    ect.
    but when he has to do THIS much fighting, much of it against highly skilled warriors… he probably won’t make it. Although if he did manage to do it, it would easily be his most impressive thing he has ever done.

    On a side note, I do think Link is capable of defeating the final boss in the game, as well as any non god thing (what are they called again? Venat?) in that entire game but it’s a moot point if he cannot operate his time travel as he did in majora’s mask…

    So I give this to archadia… for at least ensuring Hyrule’s destruction and annihilation of a majority of it’s population. And at most taking it over and incorporating it into the empire until Balthier and Co. can end the war.

  47. noobs April 4, 2010 at 11:01 pm -      #47

    chatue romania + magic armor + great fariys sorwd = pwnage

  48. OriginalA April 5, 2010 at 12:50 am -      #48

    The Archadian people enjoy a technilogical advantage that surpasses Hyrule by decades. They had an air fleet when Hyrule has just recently mastered the steam engine. Hyrule doesn’t even have guns, although they have understood the property of gun powder for some time. Despite that there is only a single case of a man portable, gun powder based, bazooka type weapon see in Twilight Princess.

    One man, Link, can only do so much against an amry, and it won’t ever be enough with Link’s limited abilities. Hyrule requires an army of its own to fully counter these invaders.

    Ganon’s army varies in strength depending on the time, but even still never has it fought against the sheer quantity of magic users. Ganon’s army is usually felled by a single or a handfull of powerful magic users and here they are against an army of magic users who also have a technological advantage. They alone won’t suffice.

    Arcadia has air superiority. That’s never an easy thing to fight against.

    But Hyrule does have a trump card. Throughout its history, there were two wars that Hyrule nearly lost. The first is the second reigh of Ganon. At this point Ganon and his forces stormed the land. Hyrule’s army was smashed, and the people had no defense against the invading force. The result was the Goddesses themselves flooding the entire world but protecting the people of Hyrule. The second war is the Interloper War of TP’s Backstory. The Interlopers’ magic completely overwhelmed the Hyrulian forces and they nearly had the Triforce within their grasp. Unfortuantely for them the Goddesses order four Light Spirits down from the heavens to stem their advance, and the Goddesses themselves punted the Interlopers into the Twilight Realm.

    I think it’s pretty clear that the Goddesses just won’t allow an invading force to successfully conquer Hyrule. Of course that might get filed under outside help as it is litterally Divine Intervention, but since this is a What If instead of a VS then shouldn’t it be considered? Even without the Goddesses though, the Light Spirits, who are pretty powerful in their own right, are active gaurdians of the land of Hyrule so they should be considered as part of their force.

  49. Death2545 May 29, 2010 at 7:12 am -      #49

    I believe that Archadia could beat Hyrule and take over with just there air ships alone.
    They have 12 fleets each fleet is made of 7-14 Light Cruiser Class ships 4-7 Cruiser Class ships a couple 100 Fighter class ships which can easily engage in combat with ground units from the air cuz they hover and have turrets a Heavy Carrier Class ship such as the Alexander a Dreadnought Class ship such as the popular Leviathan and finally the sole Sky Fortress Class ship the Bahamut so in all Hyrule would have to destroy 84-168 Light Cruisers 48-84 Cruisers 12 Heavy Carriers and or Deadnought ships plus 1 Sky Fortress and its Mist cannon which that can destroy entire ships in one shot and over a 1000 fighters.
    NOTE: in FF12 it says no where and in no way is seen the mist cannon destroying whole cities that was the affect of Deifacted Nethicite which all Deifacted Nethicite is no longer useable and only eats magic the Manufacted Nethicite that the mist cannon uses is no where near as powerful.
    Anyways point being if the Archadian Empire Launched a full scale attack on Hyrule they could win and wipe out everything without ever touching the ground if they did use ground troops it would make sense they would use rooks capable of magic melee and ranged combat A.I war Machines meant for Anti Personnel use Archadia would crush Hyrule to bits and if the high rule godesses did intervine do you not think the fallen god Venat would just float around doing nothing? even a fallen god has the power of a god. even tho its 3 to 1 i really doubt Venat would be easy to beat in anyway what so ever.

  50. Negative Zero November 5, 2010 at 9:28 pm -      #50

    Well seeing as how the current incarnation of Hyrule is the Twilight Princess version then they would get….
    Link
    Zelda
    Ganondorf
    Midna
    Zant
    Light Spirits
    The omnipotent Golden Godesses
    Darbus
    The rest of the Gorons
    The Occa and their Sky Canons
    The bosses from that game

    Whats stopping Ganondorf, Zant, the Light Spirits, and the Goddesses from wiping them out right at the start?

  51. Negative Zero November 5, 2010 at 10:22 pm -      #51

    The Archadians lose due to divine wrath basically.

  52. Negative Zero November 8, 2010 at 7:49 pm -      #52

    I find it very amusing that almost nobody stopped to think “Hey ya know what? Hyrule has the omnipotent Golden Goddesses, Light Spirits, Six Sages, Zant , and the immortal King of Evil Ganondorf. How could Hyrule lose exactly?” Instead this debate was nothing more than “Hyrule is screwed! These guys are from teh Final Fantasy and they gots airships!”….well woopie shit, they are just mortals though.

  53. Zazax November 8, 2010 at 8:14 pm -      #53

    “they are just mortals though.”
    Depending on which version of Archadia we go with they might get Venat, although I doubt he can match the Goddesses himself. And if the Goddesses interfere, the entire Occuria might step in, although I have no idea how they’d match with LoZ’s gods.

  54. Negative Zero November 8, 2010 at 8:18 pm -      #54

    @Zazax
    Given that then Hyrule wins hands down. But this is a what if not a battle so no award is needed. I hope my Legend of Zelda vs Final Fantasy match gets posted soon.

  55. OriginalA November 8, 2010 at 8:37 pm -      #55

    “Well seeing as how the current incarnation of Hyrule is the Twilight Princess version then they would get….”

    Except, you know, it isn’t. Current Hyrule is from Spirit Tracks, which is on a completely differant continent as the original Hyrule (OoT’s Hyrule was flooded. TP’s Hyrule is a few miles away from OoT’s, and ST and TP are on differant timelines).

  56. Negative Zero November 8, 2010 at 8:49 pm -      #56

    “Current Hyrule is from Spirit Tracks,”

    Thats NEW Hyrule. Different name, different country.

    “TP’s Hyrule is a few miles away from OoT’s,”

    I don’t ever recall that being mentioned ANYWHERE. I don’t know where you got that. I suppose every time they move Hyrule they just so happen to move it to a place that has a Lost Woods, Death Mountain, Lake Hylia, and Gerudo Desert?

    “and ST and TP are on differant timelines).”

    Only if you believe in the split timeline theory, which I don’t.

  57. OriginalA November 8, 2010 at 10:02 pm -      #57

    1) The Kingdom of Hyrule is NEVER named New Hyrule in Spirit Tracks. Not once. Not in the game nor in the supplemental material. It is only on one of the two wiki sites for the Zelda series is it refered to as “New Hyrule” and that is only to differantiate it from the Hyrule that was lost in the great flood. In-universe wise it is Hyrule. More over, it even has direct lineage from the same ruling familiy. It is the same monarcy. The only differance is the location of the main capital city and territorial boarders. Trust me, you will find many instances of the same thing in the real world and you would be hard pressed to argue that it is new country just because it changed significantly.

    2) TP’s Hyrule Caslte and Castle Town are no longer in the same place in respect to Zora’s Domain, nor Death Mountain, nor the Temple of Time (which previously was inside of Castle Town during OoT; during WW Hyrule Castle was rebuilt on top of the Temple of Time). Additionally, not all incarnations of Hyrule has a Death Mountain, Lost Woods, Lake Hylia, and Gerudo Desert.

    Hyrule as of LoZ/AoL had neither Lake Hylia nor Gerudo Desert. Additionally AoL had two completely differant deserts too boot, and an entirely new island as well.
    Hyrule as of LttP did not have the Gerudo Desert, but instead had Desert of Mystery.
    OoT’s Hyrule was the first to include all four of these locations, and, in fact, was the first to have the Gerudo Desert.
    FS had Death Mountain only… not even Hyrule Castle.
    FSA had Death Mountain and yet another differant desert, called the Desert of Doubt.
    Minish Cap was missing the Lost Woods, Death Mountain, and the Gerudo Desert, so I suppost that wasn’t Hyrule either, hmm???

    Understand two things here. A) Hyrule Castle moves around a lot. B) Noted landmarks are not always the same ones seen previously. Zora’s Domain for instance moves from south of Hyrule Castle in OoT to untomost north of all other landmarks in TP. There is even a town in TP called “Old Kakariko Village”… I wonder what that might be referencing?

    3) Word of God says the Split Timeline is canon, so your sitting in your own little fanon bubble on that point.

  58. Negative Zero November 9, 2010 at 9:08 pm -      #58

    “2) TP’s Hyrule Caslte and Castle Town are no longer in the same place in respect to Zora’s Domain, nor Death Mountain, nor the Temple of Time (which previously was inside of Castle Town during OoT; during WW Hyrule Castle was rebuilt on top of the Temple of Time). Additionally, not all incarnations of Hyrule has a Death Mountain, Lost Woods, Lake Hylia, and Gerudo Desert.”

    If they kept everything the way it was in OoT when making TP then Hyrule would be very VERY small when compared to what Gamecube hardware can do. Just because they switched locations around doesn’t mean it is a different Hyrule. In fact the Gamecube version of TP had the locations of OoT in the same general areas.

    “Hyrule as of LoZ/AoL had neither Lake Hylia nor Gerudo Desert. Additionally AoL had two completely differant deserts too boot, and an entirely new island as well.
    Hyrule as of LttP did not have the Gerudo Desert, but instead had Desert of Mystery.
    OoT’s Hyrule was the first to include all four of these locations, and, in fact, was the first to have the Gerudo Desert.
    FS had Death Mountain only… not even Hyrule Castle.
    FSA had Death Mountain and yet another differant desert, called the Desert of Doubt.
    Minish Cap was missing the Lost Woods, Death Mountain, and the Gerudo Desert, so I suppost that wasn’t Hyrule either, hmm???”

    Have you ever thought the developers just wanted to be creative and add some new locations to Hyrule? Your implying that if Hyrule is missing even the most insignificant place then it just HAS to be a different Hyrule.

    “Understand two things here. A) Hyrule Castle moves around a lot. B) Noted landmarks are not always the same ones seen previously. Zora’s Domain for instance moves from south of Hyrule Castle in OoT to untomost north of all other landmarks in TP. There is even a town in TP called “Old Kakariko Village”… I wonder what that might be referencing?”

    All of this can be explained by developers simply putting the locations wherever the hell they want. The LoZ series spans thousands of years. Do you really expect places like Turtle Rock or Castle Town to stay rooted in one place or last that long in one place? As for “Old Kakariko” that is also mentioned in a wiki, the same place where you discredited ST as being in New Hyrule. Also Old Kakariko could just be as its name implies, a very Old place where an older Kakariko Village was (mabey Skyword Sword will elaborate on this).

    “3) Word of God says the Split Timeline is canon, so your sitting in your own little fanon bubble on that point.”

    So Koji Kondo is God now? Whodathunkit? Heres the thing, I think he just wants to make an already overcomplicated timeline even MORE complicated. He should really just stick to making the songs for the LoZ games. He isn’t the big man on campus at Nintendo, Miyamoto is.

  59. OriginalA November 9, 2010 at 10:04 pm -      #59

    On the timeline:

    From an interview in 02 about WW’s placement in the timeline:
    “Q: Where does The Wind Waker fit into the overall Zelda series timeline?

    Aonuma: You can think of this game as taking place over a hundred years after Ocarina of Time. You can tell this from the opening story, and there are references to things from Ocarina located throughout the game as well.

    Miyamoto: Well, wait, which point does the hundred years start from?

    Aonuma: From the end.

    Miyamoto: No, I mean, as a child or as a…

    Aonuma: Oh, right, let me elaborate on that. Ocarina of Time basically has two endings of sorts; one has Link as a child and the other has him as an adult. This game, The Wind Waker, takes place a hundred years after the adult Link defeats Ganon at the end of Ocarina.

    Miyamoto: This is pretty confusing for us, too. (laughs) So be careful.”

    From an interview in 07 about TP’s placement in the timeline:

    “–When does Twilight Princess take place?

    Aonuma: In the world of Ocarina of Time, a hundred and something years later.

    –And the Wind Waker?

    Aonuma: The Wind Waker is parallel. In Ocarina of Time, Link flew seven years in time, he beat Ganon and went back to being a kid, remember? Twilight Princess
    takes place in the world of Ocarina of Time, a hundred and something years after the peace returned to kid Link’s time. In the last scene of Ocarina of Time, kids Link and Zelda have a little talk, and as a consequence of that talk, their relationship with Ganon takes a whole new direction. In the middle of this game [Twilight Princess], there’s a scene showing Ganon’s execution. It was decided that Ganon be executed because he’d do something outrageous if they left him be. That scene takes place several years after Ocarina of Time. Ganon was sent to another world and now he wants to obtain the power…”

    Finally, on Eiji Aomuma:

    He was the assistant director of OoT, Head director of MM and WW, and is now the head supervisor of the franchise after that. All that means is that this guy has had involved with every single Zelda title for the last 12 years, and has had direct control of the franchise for the past 6 years. … and you think he doesn’t know what he is talking about. How cute.

    Either that or your are ignorant of Tropes.
    tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WordOfGod

    From the whole first half of you arguement:
    “Do you really expect places like Turtle Rock or Castle Town to stay rooted in one place or last that long in one place?”

    Ironic, since it was YOUR arguement that OoT and TP’s Hyrule Caslte was exactly the same and hadn’t moved an inch. How can you possibly expect me to take you seriously when I point out how rediculous it is for Hyrule Castle to be static over the course of the entire franchise and then you come back in the very next post and dare claim that that was my claim when it clearly was not.

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