Altaïr Ibn La-Ahad Vs Artemis Entreri vs Lucien Lachance vs Waylander the Slayer

Altair Ibn La-Ahad Vs Artemis Entreri Vs Lucien Lachance Vs Waylander the Slayer

Here’s an excellent idea suggested by TL.

Altaïr Ibn La-Ahad (Assassin’s Creed), Artemis Entreri (Forgotten Realms), Lucien Lachance (The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion) and Waylander the Slayer (David Gemmell’s Waylander) –

Instead of these elite assassins facing each other, instead they each have the same target: Gandalf the Grey.

In order to make it fair, we’ll place all the assassins into the Lord of the Rings realm. They are allowed to fight each other if they want to – but the goal is to finish assignment.

Who would win, and would they be the only assassin left standing?

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192 Comments on "Altaïr Ibn La-Ahad Vs Artemis Entreri vs Lucien Lachance vs Waylander the Slayer"

  1. AHEM June 27, 2009 at 2:05 pm -      #101

    For the reasons already stated by Matapiojo, I would say Artemis has the best chances of success here, either against Gandalf or the other assassins.

    Second most likely I would say is Lucien. Altair and the Waylander cannot use magic, putting them at a major disadvantage against Gandalf or Entreri. Lucien, however, is familiar with magic in his own setting and can use it to a limited extent.

    Lucien doesn’t quite have the acrobatic prowess of the others, but he is skilled at moving steathily and can even turn at least partially invisible. His weapon of choice would probably be the upgraded Blade of Woe, an enchanted blade that is one of the most powerful weapons that can be obtained in Oblivion.(Lucien gives it to the player after accepting a quest, to help with the completion.) In Oblivion, the amount of magic within an item is measured by the “charge” of it, which is slowly drained away every time the weapon is used. Items with a charge higher than 1600 are considered very powerful. The Blade of Woe’s charge is over 32,000, and each use of the Blade takes just over 1000 charge, so it could be used about 30 times before needing to be recharged.

    Upon contact with an enemy, even if it is just a glancing blow, the Blade of Woe causes several effects. It’s enchantment instantly degrades both the physical health and natural magical reserves of magic. On top of that, it magically causes supernatural fear and drains an opponent’s willpower and determination, making them very likely to simply run away before the Blade of Woe is swung again. The Blade of Woe also has the ability to damage ghosts and noncorporeal entities.

    That being said, I do not believe the Blade of Woe to be more deadly than Entreri’s vampiric dagger, if only for the fact that it is possible to survive being hit with the Blade.(Albeit getting a nasty injury.)

    Lucian also possesses the Black Hand robes, which magically fortify several assassin-related abilities, such as acrobatics, knife-fighting, and stealth movement. It wouldn’t be enough to push him way beyond the abilities of the others, but it would be a help, I think.

    Lucien’s other main assassination weapon would be poisoned apples. They are non-magical items(Gandalf and Entreri wouldn’t be able to sense them) that have been treated with a poison strong enough to kill the strongest characters. The poison activates a few seconds after consumption, from there the poison kills within a minute. And that’s assuming the victim is in top physical condition and has a mammoth load of endurance. The average citizen who eats one would probably be dead within 10-15 seconds.(This poison has also been known to bypass all resistences and immunities to poison, even magical ones.) Lucien’s strategy, I think, would be to somehow get Entreri to eat one of these and then apprenhend his magical gear after he’s dead. However, getting an assassin as experienced as Entreri to eat one of those would be quite a challenge, and he could possibly heal himself by stealing the lifeforce of the nearest target with his dagger.

    So, in conclusion, Entreri has got the best chances, but Lucien is a serious danger to everyone else in this contest.

  2. stormrider July 9, 2009 at 12:34 pm -      #102

    i know of all of these assassins and it would be a tight contest between all of them,. althought i think that waylander would triumph, just due to the fact that he has faced many demons and magickers and has been successful every time.

    there is also the fact that he is killed in hero in the shadows but is brought back to life by the priestess ustarte, however his heart is not restarted so he would in essence already be dead and could not be killed by gandalf or any of the other competitors

    he is also given the gift of quick healing by the monster kai so any wounds would not slow him down

    with regards to Lucien lachance we dont get a chance to see his fighting ability in oblivion so there is no real way to tell how good an assassin he is

  3. DeathIncarnate August 3, 2009 at 3:39 am -      #103

    I want a can of hash and some coffee…

  4. Steve September 2, 2009 at 2:05 am -      #104

    Ok, I didn’t read all the posts, so it this is a repeat idea, sorry. But Waylander, who has destroyed many powerful magic beings, would NOT take out Gandolf. Since he took out the kings son and almost ruined the kingdom, he has been a changed man. He would defend Gandolf and take out the other three, end of story. Remember, there is nothing alive that he can’t kill.

  5. AHEM September 16, 2009 at 9:04 pm -      #105

    Waylander is REALLY overrated, here.

    Seriously, he has no magic! None! Artemis has magic items, as well as a guantlet that allows him to interact and control it. Lucian is familiar with magic in his own universe and carries an extremely powerful magic dagger loaded with various nasty effects. Gandalf is a wizard, with more than enough magical power to crush any human one-on-one without some manner of matching, avoiding, or countering his wizardry.

    Maybe Waylander could beat Altair, but the other two are going to make short work of him if they meet, to say nothing of his minor(at best) chances of actually taking out Gandalf by anything except extreme luck mixed with surprise.

  6. Asger October 3, 2009 at 12:32 pm -      #106

    The inner Elder Scrolls fanboy in me wants to give this to Lucien but I know it would not be easy. He could stomp the shit out of Altair (Seriously why’s he up against these 3 fantasy assasins?) and possibly Waylander from what I hear.

    Artemis would be a problem however. If he was lucky he could get him to eat a poisoned apple,but he is most likely not as stupid as most of the locals in Cyrodiil. Lucien would be capable of bringing down Gandalf,but only through stealth and deception.

    He’s most likely a second placer.

  7. AHEM October 4, 2009 at 6:13 pm -      #107

    “The inner Elder Scrolls fanboy in me wants to give this to Lucien but I know it would not be easy. He could stomp the shit out of Altair (Seriously why’s he up against these 3 fantasy assasins?) and possibly Waylander from what I hear. ”

    I have to agree. Altair and Waylander are probably evenly matched, with Waylander maybe being a little ahead, Lucien would be above either of them, and Artemis should have the best chances out of the four.

  8. Jwlynas October 17, 2009 at 1:46 pm -      #108

    Waylander is outclassed because he has no magic?

    Oh, well, fair enough. I mean, he’s never killed magicians before, nor demons. Nor does he have magically induced regeneration and endurance, increased speed and strength.

    …Wait, I’m thinking of someone else. Waylander has killed mages before, often midspell, and he does have all those things. Silly me.

    I try to keep personal preferences out of these matchs. Which means I’ve had to nominate against Skilgannon the damned twice on this website, and Kharn numerous times.

    I fully believe Waylander can win this. He has the lifetime of experience on his side, what with being in his 80′s to 90′s and still well within the prime of his life. Due to his associations with magic users, and that one healer/cyclops, he’s enhanced beyond humanity. His birthright as one of the Rolynd means he reacts to atacks moments before they happen, and being faster than most men this makes a huge difference.

    His equipment, while mostly unmagical, is masterfully made. His Crossbow is a work of art, his various knives are perfectly balanced, his leather and chainmail has stopped well made swords, knives and demonic claws from getting near his flesh. He’s a damn fine assassin, and more than a match for lucien.

    Artemis I can only guess at from what people have said, but the other two are outclassed.

  9. Milo November 25, 2009 at 1:49 pm -      #109

    whoever might win, Dakeyras (Waylander) will be the 1 who survives… if not the best assassin (and he really IS a remarkable one), hes a survivalist par excellence
    Jwlynas: nice post :)

  10. AHEM November 25, 2009 at 7:50 pm -      #110

    “His equipment, while mostly unmagical, is masterfully made. His Crossbow is a work of art, his various knives are perfectly balanced, his leather and chainmail has stopped well made swords, knives and demonic claws from getting near his flesh. He’s a damn fine assassin, and more than a match for lucien.”

    If Waylander has some form of supernatural attributes, then I have to conclude he would beat Altair(who’s pretty much outmatched against either of them), but against two assassins that frequently utilize magic, I doubt it.

    Masterfully made gear is nice and all, but even the best materials are still whole orders of quality below what he’s going to have to deal with.

    Charon’s Claw, for example, wielded by Artemis. As Matapiojo said in the very first post on this thread, it has unnatural sharpness that would rend the hardest armor like paper. Artemis’ vampiric blade would be equally dangerous, able to deal death at the slightest nick to the skin.

    On the matter of Lucien, what is Waylander going to do when his opponent turns invisible and sneaks around to strike with a magical dagger that will sap Waylander’s willpower and health, destroy the magical enhancements that upgrade his physical abilities with its anti-magic enchantment, and inflict him with supernatural fear in a single glancing blow?

    There’s also the matter that a sneak master in Oblivion(which I’m pretty sure the Dark Brotherhood Speaker is) can peform a special stealth strike that bypasses all armor and physical defenses of a target and multiplies the damage of the penetrating strike by x6. I’d like to see unenchanted mail stop that.

  11. Milo November 26, 2009 at 10:10 am -      #111

    AHEM, as Jwlynas has already stated, Waylander is Rolynd – he can sense the danger. His reactions are not based only on hearing or sight. He knows somethings gonna happen and acts just before it does..
    He may not succeed in killing Gandalf.. but anyone who decides to go after him should be prepared to fail (and eventually die)

  12. AHEM November 26, 2009 at 1:28 pm -      #112

    “AHEM, as Jwlynas has already stated, Waylander is Rolynd – he can sense the danger. His reactions are not based only on hearing or sight. He knows somethings gonna happen and acts just before it does..”

    That doesn’t give much of an explanation of how he’s going to counter Artemis and Lucien when just parrying a blow from one of their blades is going to result in his own weapon on the floor in two pieces, and the slightest touch of which will deal crippling or fatal damage in an instant. It is also not certain that his sense as a Rolynd would be sufficient to detect the approach of an assassin who is magically shrouded from detection.

    “He may not succeed in killing Gandalf.. but anyone who decides to go after him should be prepared to fail (and eventually die)”

    Even assuming that Waylander would be able to best the other three, that wouldn’t be sufficient to win the match. Artemis is really the only one who really has the means to take down Gandalf without much difficulty; for the rest of them, attempts on the wizard(who is the only way any of them could win this) are likely going to come to naught.

  13. Jwlynas November 26, 2009 at 2:13 pm -      #113

    “That doesn’t give much of an explanation of how he’s going to counter Artemis and Lucien when just parrying a blow from one of their blades is going to result in his own weapon on the floor in two pieces, and the slightest touch of which will deal crippling or fatal damage in an instant”

    By dodging rather than parrying, or my hitting them from a distance with his ranged weaponry, which included various knives, crossbow bolts, hidden blades… That and his knife-fighting ability is legendary, to the point where World renowned gladiators (Angel/Old-Hard-To-Kill, for those who have read the second book) gave up rather than face him, so certain were they of death.

    Lucien is potentially powerful, but his skills were never seen, and seeing as those who killed him were hardly impressive fighters themselves its not much of a commendation to him as to his skills of detection. Especially since he knew he was being hunted, moved into the middle of nowhere and was supposedly feared within that order. He was still killed without the loss of a single foe.

    Artemis on the other hand seems far more suited to Waylander-killing. But as has been established elsewhere, Artemis and Waylander aren’t stupid, nor are they hunting each other. They are hunting the White Wizard, and teaming up, whatever the eventual outcome of that alliance, is the wisest course of action. Luciens equipment wuld be handled better by them than anyone else too…

    As to how well Waylander would fare against people he can’t see, its happened before. He hunted and snuck up on them whiole they were hiding and silent. He found them and gutted them before they knew what hit them.

  14. Milo November 26, 2009 at 3:18 pm -      #114

    as i said, he may not succeed in killing gandalf – thus fulfilling the contract… just read my second statement u quoted, and the question at the beginning (“who would win, and would they be the only assassin left standing??”)
    id say it just takes a bit (rather lot) more than a human being, no matter how skillful or/and well equipped, to take Waylander down

  15. midnite marauder November 26, 2009 at 4:53 pm -      #115

    Just to capitalize on what AHEM said Artemis’ blade Charon’s Claw also has the magical property of causing even minor scratches to fester unnaturaly bringing death due to infection. That means even the slightest breakage of skin and its all she wrote.

    Also Artemis is no longer actually “human” in the sense of the word ever since he used his vampiric dagger on a shade he has become part-shade gaining some of its abilities of which the only ones I know of are increased longevity and the ability to wield Charon’s Claw with much more skill now that the blade has an affinity towards him.

  16. ss November 26, 2009 at 6:51 pm -      #116

    im throwing my vote for artemis entreri

  17. lamefellow November 26, 2009 at 7:46 pm -      #117

    In regards to Artemis, isn’t it possible for Gandalf the Grey to use Artemis’ internal conflicts to throw the assassin off balance? As much as he is an adept in magic, Gandalf equally has a way with words. I think he could pick Artemis’ brains.

  18. ss November 26, 2009 at 8:18 pm -      #118

    i doubt he could pick his brain, he would be kind of busy trying magic, he might get of 1 spell, but that wont work, and i doubt he will have time for another

  19. Jwlynas November 27, 2009 at 12:01 pm -      #119

    Charons claw, effects emulated in the Talons of the Demon Dogs waylander has faced and killed (exact names forgotten). The weapons don’t decide this match, because Gandalf the grey is as vunerable as any human, though certainly wiser and more powerful.

    Feats wise both Artemis and Waylander have the same achievements. The difference is Waylander has managed it without hugely powerful magical weapons. He’s managed it with mundane items and sheer skill.

    My moneys on Waylander, as it always was.

  20. AHEM December 9, 2009 at 3:11 pm -      #120

    I must admit, some new information about Waylander has been brought to my attention that I wasn’t previously aware of. There isn’t much information on Gemmel’s series online, it seems.

    He would definitely stand better chances than Altair and could probably beat Lucien if he is really as extreme as it sounds, though I still think the Blade of Woe and invisibility could be a problem. In the end though, I’m still putting my money on Artemis, as he is the only one who has a genuine anti-magic artifact that would make dealing with Gandalf much easier.

  21. Jwlynas December 9, 2009 at 3:24 pm -      #121

    “In the end though, I’m still putting my money on Artemis, as he is the only one who has a genuine anti-magic artifact that would make dealing with Gandalf much easier.”

    …I have to give that much to Artemis. Waylander’s only anti- Magic thing is his total lack of a soul by the end of the series (long story), and his ability to put crossbow bolt through the head of someone from great distances. On the off-chance Gandalf knew he was coming, it wouldn’t be too fun for him.

    Now I want to know the results of Artemis verse Waylander :p

  22. Whacko December 31, 2009 at 9:48 pm -      #122

    Altair, he is bested in skill and general equipment, but the Apple of Eden will dominate.

  23. Jwlynas December 31, 2009 at 11:50 pm -      #123

    @Whacko – Gandalf and Lucien would be highly resistant to any sort of mind control and waylander has locked off parts of his mind that the most powerful mages of his world cannot break. Artemis likely has similar feats, psionics and mental assaults being rife in his world.

    That said, the guards that Gandalf may or may not have would be affected. care to lay out a plan for Altair that would let him use this mind control effectively?

  24. AHEM January 2, 2010 at 9:16 pm -      #124

    “Artemis likely has similar feats, psionics and mental assaults being rife in his world.”

    The gauntlet can sense, absorb, and redirect psionic powers as well as magic. Not only would mind control not be a problem, but he could probably turn it to his own ends against his competitors.

  25. Robert January 8, 2010 at 8:03 pm -      #125

    I give my vote to none other than Artemis Entreri.

    First is Altair. Sure he’s got some really good skills, such as his ability to hide in the crowds, but he’s being faced with beings of a completly higher levels. Gandalf the Grey, as all of you know, would sense the threat, since Altair is not used to hiding his intent from his targets because he has never had to deal with people of such power, and be killed in a instant.

    Lucien doens’t have much availible information, so i will refrain from saying he is incapable of killing Gandalf, but his chances are dim because of the danger Artemis and Waylander represent.

    Waylander may have some incredible sniping skills but as shown in the Lord of the Ring movies Gandalf has blocked arrows on multiple occasions with various shields. Waylander, having no real counter-magic, would be in real deep shit. If Waylander tried to kill the competition he might have succes on the “weaker” two but Artemis Entreri is one of the greatest blade masters of all time. He would engage Waylander in battle and even if Waylander could detect a close danger what says he can react to a perfect strike from Artemis Entreri on time. Even if he did block the fatal blow there are thousands more ready to come his way and all Artemis needs is one touch to kill him.

    Finally, Artemis, the greatest assassin in the Forgotten Realms. His ability to blend in the smallest shadows and his skills with his blade and dagger make him one dagerous foe. All he needs is to barely touch Gandalf’s skin with his dagger and he wins. Even if he misses his sneak attack he can beat Gandalf. Gandalf only way to beat Artimis head on is to cause something of great size fall on him. He can’t strike him with a blast because Artemis will absorb it, he can’t fight his with his staff since Artemis can easily get around his defenses in short order. If he tried to repediatly send bolts at him to stop him, Artemis would simply make a whole bunch of walls of ash around Gandalf and dispatch him in short order.

    In conclusion Artemis Entreri would win due to his skills with the blade and his magical weapons.

  26. Jwlynas January 10, 2010 at 1:08 pm -      #126

    “He would engage Waylander in battle and even if Waylander could detect a close danger what says he can react to a perfect strike from Artemis Entreri on time.”

    ..Except Waylander doesn’t work on rules like this. It would be akin to Porthos the pirate, indiana jones or Malcolm Reynolds when facing a potentially superior close combat fighter.

    Artemis would feel, unannounced and unwarned, a sharp knock to the head, and moments later he’d be dead, a black fletched bolt protruding from his eye.

    Waylander can feel attacks coming before they do, and he doesn’t play honourably , he’s seen too many die because of that to care.

    And sadly, that’d be the best chance of Gandalf’s death gone, unless other people are capable of using Artemis’ weapons?

  27. Blood Dancer January 10, 2010 at 1:36 pm -      #127

    ‘..Except Waylander doesn’t work on rules like this. It would be akin to Porthos the pirate, indiana jones or Malcolm Reynolds when facing a potentially superior close combat fighter.

    Artemis would feel, unannounced and unwarned, a sharp knock to the head, and moments later he’d be dead, a black fletched bolt protruding from his eye.

    Waylander can feel attacks coming before they do, and he doesn’t play honourably , he’s seen too many die because of that to care.’

    yep that’s waylander

  28. galorian March 18, 2010 at 1:53 pm -      #128

    4 things no one mentioned about artemis-
    charon’s claw has the power to create magical darkness that only its wielder can see through.
    The jeweled dagger has at one point penetrated admentine drow chain mail when hurled by a badly wounded and crippled halfling.
    Artemis is wearing additional “standard” magical items such asa magical belt hat and pair of boots, though their properties haven’t been detailed (possibly due to their enchantments being the standard fair for their type), save for the hat, which is said to possess moderate defensive enchantments.
    Lastly, his gaunglet was overloaded by supressing an artifact that was at the same time the lich’s phylactery, a tome of summoning that put out an endless supply of gargoyls and various other animated creations including golems, and the foci for the creation and maintnance of the tower in which it resided. i think it is safe to assume gandalf wont be throwing around that kind of power in a single burst.

  29. galorian March 18, 2010 at 1:58 pm -      #129

    almost forgot-
    artemis is well trained in deflecting endless (literaly) streams of ranged projectiles.

  30. Mercenary Drow March 24, 2010 at 3:43 pm -      #130

    Awwww shit, you better watch your back Gandalf because Artemis Entreri is going to put his dagger into it!

  31. Sam1991 March 26, 2010 at 5:14 pm -      #131

    Waylander all the way. He has dealt with demonic hounds with bites that are similar to Artemis’ dagger in that an open wound causes death, he never fights fair if he can help it, hes survived enounters with wolfmen, demon kings, generals, wizards, master swordsmen and fellow assassins, all just by his skill and cunning.

    I think the main point though is that he is almost always ‘outclassed’ and comes out on top. This time would be no different.

  32. Jwlynas March 26, 2010 at 5:34 pm -      #132

    Huzzah, yet another Gemmell fan joins the field. Welcome aboard Sam

  33. Blood Dancer March 26, 2010 at 6:37 pm -      #133

    “Huzzah, yet another Gemmell fan joins the field. Welcome aboard Sam”

    so that makes three of us now. Welcome Sam

  34. Sam1991 March 27, 2010 at 1:29 pm -      #134

    lol Ive lurking a while and Im surprised that theres not more of us.

  35. Jwlynas March 27, 2010 at 1:54 pm -      #135

    Oh there’s a few around, but they tend to be kinda quiet about it.

    Not us. Shout it to the rooftops boys

    “Never violate a woman, nor harm a child.
    Do not lie, cheat or steal.
    These things are for lesser men.
    Protect the weak against the evil strong.
    And never allow thoughts of gain to lead you into the pursuit of evil.
    Never back away from an enemy. Either fight or surrender.
    It is not enough to say “I will not be evil.” Evil must be fought wherever it is found.”

  36. Sam1991 March 27, 2010 at 2:21 pm -      #136

    well thats certainly passionate! :)

  37. Jwlynas March 27, 2010 at 3:10 pm -      #137

    From the Mouth of Druss the Legend and his mentor… Whose name I believe began with an S

  38. rafa June 22, 2010 at 1:08 pm -      #138

    Altair is the best he can beat anyone with his weapons and the apple of eden

  39. bobrobpete June 22, 2010 at 1:13 pm -      #139

    Altair is the best, he can beat anyone withw his weapons and the apple of eden

  40. Blood Dancer June 22, 2010 at 1:41 pm -      #140

    @Trolls who are the same people

    No just no. Read the whole debate and you’ll see why he won’t

  41. Kaiser Teken'duis July 1, 2010 at 4:57 am -      #141

    This is certainly a tight call. I agree with almost all posts here and each character is the best of the best in their respective realms. I don’t have knowledge of waylander but the arguments for him aren’t strong enough, maybe he has never lost because he hasn’t run into the others… So he’s out.
    Lucien certainly has advantages especially if his chameleon spell isn’t countered. still in Oblivion, a low level PC can best him easily, eluding that his melee ability is relatively poor. I think he’s only a master assassin because of the format of elder scrolls. So he’s out.
    As for others bagging Altair, I think his best shot would either be to use his ‘Hide in plain sight’ to assasinate and with no magical gear, being undetectable undetectable. If not, I think we are underestimating his parry – riposte skills. He can easily take out the best fighters in all the dark ages (apologise if I’m wrong, not the best history buff) without a scratch, so he is definitely a toe to toe master, even to the standards of the forgottem realms.
    Still, I think the best bet would be Entreri. He is physically and magically at least equal (that’s even being conservative) to the other characters. Entreri, however is without question the most intelligent of the assassins and would no doubt weave intrigue into the equation to devastating effect. He has survived situations using these skills before, such in ‘Streams of Silver’ and even escaped Menzoberranzan. As for killing Gandalf the Grey, I think other posts are talking him up a bit. In game terms, he is given awesome stats because he is a necessary character and isn’t supposed to die. In the books and movies he is always getting knocked around and portrayed as more wise than powerful. I’m not saying he’s weak, far from it, just not to the standard of the greatest assassins.
    Recap, Entreri wins because of his ability to assess EVERY CONTINGENCY (for those who remember the conversation with Dwahvel). I could easily see him coaxing a king into sending an army for some obscure political advantage that somehow helped himself.

  42. Sam1991 July 1, 2010 at 2:22 pm -      #142

    @jwlynas – Shadak was his name, or some variation of.

    Saying Waylander has never lost because he has never run into the others is no reason to say he would lose if he does. I could use that exact same argument to say that Entreri would lose because he has never faced off against Waylander.

    Lucien’s chameleon spell wouldn’t see him through either, as Waylander has thought and defeated foes who have used cloaks to render themselves invisible in the past, using nothing more than his sense of hearing. (And this foe was a demon well used to sneaking up on humans, and he was being extra careful because he knew Waylander was no slouch.)

    As for Altair’s parry/riposte the slayer wouldnt meet him blade to blade. He would just end his life from twenty paces using a blackend steel crossbow bolt. Even if Waylander did end up fighting toe to toe then hes no slouch in a fight either, probably being as up to scratch as Altair himself. Waylander has certainly fought in many sword battles, and even though he himself recongnies he is far from the best, he has never actually been defeated, even by superior duelists.

    Even Entreri would have problems. Waylander is no fool, often devising the simplest course to see through any problem. Even if he is lacking in intelligence he more than makes up for it in animal cunning. This is a man who has defeated two sorcerers and a military genius, not by devising an overly complicated plan, but by just attacking.

    He may be just a human with no magic to speak of, but that does not stop him being a juggernaught.

  43. jwlynas July 1, 2010 at 3:02 pm -      #143

    Furthering Waylanders cause (Because I live for the day that a Gemmell character other than Druss wins something), he is by no means an idiot. In the second book, despite being the most infamous assassin in the world he has managed to hide from his old life for ten years, and after being found by the purest chance he manages to avoid an arrow aimed for him, without warning, because of a single rustling of leaves from the would-be killer. And this is by the grave of his great love, when he was entirely overwhelmed with sadness.

    After this he did many great feats. Sneaking into castles single-handed, evading whole armies while walking across plain landscapes, defeating human-detecting demon, and generally being amazing at what he does, which is kill people who should be impossible to kill.

  44. Blood Dancer July 2, 2010 at 8:37 am -      #144

    “Because I live for the day that a Gemmell character other than Druss wins something”

    My dear english friend, I believe that my personal favourite does stand a chance against Drizzt….

  45. Kaiser Teken'duis July 6, 2010 at 5:53 am -      #145

    You have a point Sam, I just don’t have prior knowledge of waylander other than these posts. I think my point was that each character is the best assassin in their respective realm, so we can say that the slayer would hear them coming, or would just shoot them because he is the best at that in Gemmel’s books. I meant that I know waylander is an awesome assassin in the simplest forms (such as physique, stealth, detection and weapon skill) but so are the others.
    I never expected Lucien to live up to the others. Apart from (ahem) he sux, I did say IF his chameleon spell holds up. I would like to see how far waylander’s bolt buries itself into his skull.
    I am being generous with Altair I know, but still if a skilled PC can come out of battle wih templars and bosses unscathed, Altair definitely deserves more recognition than we have given him.
    So, does it come down to Waylander and Entreri? I think stealth no longer applies, they’re both too good.
    It may then be a matter of, If A happens, Entreri gains a new orifice, If B happens, Waylander is bested in toe to toe, or something like that.

  46. Anonymous August 14, 2010 at 12:00 am -      #146

    Altaïr. PERIOD.
    He has the element of surprise if, and ONLY IF, the other three kept Gandalf busy so Altaïr could sneak up behind him and assassinate him.

  47. Anonymous August 14, 2010 at 12:13 am -      #147

    P.S.
    Altaïr has the Apple of Eden.
    DOMINATED.

  48. Anonymous August 14, 2010 at 12:17 am -      #148

    Crap I forgot, The Apple of Eden only controls weak minds…
    Gandalf is too smart for it…

  49. Blood Dancer August 15, 2010 at 9:11 am -      #149

    @Anonymous

    Altair is nowhere near the league of Waylander and Artemis…Read the thread, fool.

  50. ://hack=infiniticomplex September 25, 2010 at 1:00 am -      #150

    I don’t know enough Artemis to tell you if he ever fought demons himself, but he dominated survival in the Underdark, not to mention surviving, even holding his own against Drizzt DoUrden. Drizzt beat demons and a demigod, Artemis took out a lich, and, through transitive property, if Drizzt=Artemis & Drizzt>Demigod, Artemis>Demigod.
    Not that he actually ever proves it himself, as far as I’m aware, but he does match the skill level necessary to beat said demigod. I don’t know if that can necessarily be applied, but it is sound logic;)

  51. Vespasian October 6, 2010 at 9:29 am -      #151

    Altair has the Apple, and so that gives him (in accordance to the AC world) ‘God’ like powers,

    This alone can make one Altair become 9 Altair’s
    and with the apple he can make Everyoen stay as still as stone while he kills each in turn (even if the assassins and Gandalf are immune to the apple, the phyiscal effects of it are still effective, evidence of this is Altair himselve,

    Altair all the way

  52. Vespasian October 6, 2010 at 11:07 am -      #152

    Type your message here…

  53. Vespasian October 6, 2010 at 11:08 am -      #153

    Er sorry i dunno what happend there :/

  54. Beowulf October 14, 2010 at 8:19 pm -      #154

    I reckon artemis would take out the other assasin’s. He’s to calculating not to, and he would know to take out the competition first. Gandalfs pretty strong but it would only take a nick or scratch from either of Artemis’s weapons, then Gandalf would be screwed

  55. Rahl-expert October 19, 2010 at 9:26 pm -      #155

    Well I know all the assasins except waylander (although he does sound pretty bad ass). I’m giving this to artemis cuz of the various things told. Lucien may have a chance simply cause his master sneak level (most likely) and poisoned apples. His dagger is pretty nice too. Artemis I’m afraid has no chance unless he stealh kills cuz he’s simply a human. Nowhere in any ac games does it say he ever used the apple for combat. Don’t kno much about waylander but I’d say he’s fairly outclassed by artemis, and maybe lucien (invisibilty+no sound when sneaking= mundanely undetectable stealth. In combat lucien is outlassed by any of the others. Artemis for the win.

  56. Rahl-expert October 20, 2010 at 5:53 pm -      #156

    Srry meant to say altair there

  57. Blood Dancer November 3, 2010 at 6:29 pm -      #157

    @Rahl-Expert

    They will not see Waylander coming. Waylander is what Altair wants to be when he grows old. Waylander is immortal, has a demon-banishing blade and some cloak that render’s him nigh undetectable. Only Artemis poses real threat to him.

    Here Waylander outsmarting his equal:

    “Cadoras watched as Waylander rode from the wagons, heading away to the north towards a range of low hills. The hunter lay flat on his belly, his chin in his hands; behind him, on the far side of the hill, his horse was tethered. He eased his way back from the hill-top, walked slowly to the steel-grey gelding and unbuckled the thick saddle roll, opening it out on the ground. Within the canvas wrapping was an
    assortment of weapons ranging from a dismantled crossbow to a set of ivory-handled throwing knives. Cadoras assembled the crossbow and selected ten bolts which he placed in a doeskin quiver at his belt.

    Then he carefully slid two throwing knives into each of his calf-length riding boots, and two more into sheaths at his side. His sword was strapped to his saddle, along with a Vagrian cavalry bow tipped with gold; the quiver for this hung on his saddle horn. Fully equipped, Cadoras returned the saddle roll to its
    place and buckled the straps. Then he took some dried meat from his saddlebags and sat back on the grass and stared at the sky, watching the gathering storm clouds drifting in from the east.

    It was time for the kill.

    There had been little joy in the hunting. He could have killed Waylander on a dozen occasions – but then it took two to play the game, and Waylander had refused to take part. At first this had irritated Cadoras, making him feel slightly as if his victim had held him in contempt. But as the days passed he had realised that Waylander simply did not care. And so Cadoras had not loosed the fatal shaft.

    He wanted to know why. He was filled with an urge to ride in to the wagons and sit opposite Waylander, to ask him…

    Cadoras had been a hunter for more than a decade and he knew the role better than any man alive. In the deadliest game of all he was a master – understanding every facet, every iron rule: the hunter stalked,
    the prey evaded or ran, or turned and fought back. But the prey never ignored.

    Why?

    Cadoras had expected Waylander to hunt him, had even set elaborate traps around his camp-site. Night after night he had hidden in trees, his bow slung, while his blankets lay by warm fires covering only rocks and branches.

    Today would end the burning questions. He would kill Waylander and go home.

    Home?

    High walls and soul-less rooms, and cold-eyed messengers with offers of gold for death. Like a tomb with windows.

    ‘Curse you, Waylander! Why did you make it so easy?’

    ‘It was the only defence.’ answered Waylander and Cadoras spun round as a sword of shining steel rested on his back. He froze and then relaxed, his right hand inching, towards the hidden knives in his boot. ‘Don’t be foolish,’ said Waylander. ‘I can open your throat before you blink.’”

  58. Rahl-expert November 6, 2010 at 8:01 pm -      #158

    Waylander is immortal? Then wtf is this thread about? Why are we even having this debate if waylander is immortal?

  59. Blood Dancer November 6, 2010 at 8:27 pm -      #159

    “Then wtf is this thread about?”

    About 4 master assassins trying to kill a very powerful (read demigod) wizard?

  60. Gator9991 November 9, 2010 at 9:41 pm -      #160

    altair for the assasination, entreri for last one standing that is if they can even defeat gandalf which is doubtful i geuss if he has no idea they are coming then they could beat him

  61. Blood Dancer November 12, 2010 at 11:49 am -      #161

    “altair for the assasination”

    For God’s sake, Altair’s skill pales in comparison to that of Waylander…

  62. Vespasian November 13, 2010 at 4:59 am -      #162

    ‘For God’s sake, Altair’s skill pales in comparison to that of Waylander…’

    Really? Because fo have just been doing some research on Waylander, and it seems it was thanks to most other people that his targets and other such people got killed tbh.
    The guy also was a retired Legion (i assume a solider?) not an assassin, Altair was Trained from the moment he could walk to be an assassin.
    From what i have read online about Waylander, Altair would have the guy before he could even blink.
    I have also read else where that the other guys can use magic, I dunno if Waylander has any magic but he seems to have a good amount of strength , and Altair (if it is the Altair in Bloodlines and after) he will have the POE

    But either way i am not betting on any of these guys getting Gandalf,

  63. Blood Dancer November 13, 2010 at 7:39 am -      #163

    “From what i have read online about Waylander,”

    You have to read the books in order to see who Waylander is. Altair deals with regular people whose field of vision is what they can see. Waylander deals with people with almost peak senses. He might not be the most skilled warrior in the Drenai Universe (that would be Skilgannon the Damned) or the most indomitable (the honour goes to Druss) but he is arguably the most efficient of Gemmell’s big damn heroes. I’ll provide more info on Waylander later on.

  64. Jwlynas November 13, 2010 at 8:29 am -      #164

    “The guy also was a retired Legion (i assume a solider?) not an assassin, Altair was Trained from the moment he could walk to be an assassin.”

    So, Altair is trained at unsuspected killing, while Waylander knows how to kill a man from the front?

    Except we’ve seen time and time again that Waylander has killed people who never knew he was there, and altair has been killing guards in their droves, at least in gameplay. So… your points null and void really.

    That said, Waylander isn’t immortal. he ages far slower than most, and he heals quickly, but he can die, just like any other man. It just takes more effort than the others (Artemis aside possibly)

  65. Rahl-expert November 13, 2010 at 10:07 am -      #165

    Oh ok, but does he have any defense against entreri’s soul-stealing dagger?

  66. Vespasian November 13, 2010 at 12:07 pm -      #166

    ‘Altair deals with regular people’

    You mean Someone like Al Mualim that had a piece of tech that can control humanity?

    I think though what needs clearing up is does Waylander have access to Magic?
    Because if so, it would be completely unfair to Altair if the other three were allowed that magic while Altair was not allowed the ‘magic’ he had from the age of 25+ ?
    And if that is allowed well then Altair gets the win, as the Apple will show him what will help him not only take down the other assassin’s (although tht apple will allow him to control them, which he can do as shown in Bloodlines) but also how to get Gandalf,

    So
    Does Altair have the Apple?
    Either way would Gandalf not know they where after him and dispatch them one at a time, cus he seems to know whats goign on all the time in teh LOTRs universe?

  67. IvanTIh November 13, 2010 at 12:10 pm -      #167

    Can’t we just use Construction Set to raise Lucien’s health and attack power. :D

  68. Jwlynas November 13, 2010 at 12:36 pm -      #168

    “You mean Someone like Al Mualim that had a piece of tech that can control humanity?”

    That, correct me if I’m wrong here, Altair was never shown using and resisted/was immune to its effects?

    That is one problem here, we have four assassins who deal with their targets in entirely different ways.

    From using pure skill (Altair) to pure skill mixed with a small amount of magic (Waylander), then to more magic and more use of pure skill (Artemis) to someone with yet even more magic (Lucien)

    So, what we need to figure out is who shows the most skill, how much use the various magics would be against Gandalf and what tactics each person would use.

  69. Cananatra November 13, 2010 at 12:40 pm -      #169

    Isnt the only magic waylander has access to that night cloak?
    (Not including the left over regen in him from kai)
    My money would be on waylander alright, but heisnt someone i’d seriously rate as relying on magic to get anything done.

  70. Vespasian November 13, 2010 at 5:26 pm -      #170

    Yes Altair HAS used the apple,

    In Bloodlines,

    He is resistent to the Mental affects, but he could still be affected physically, e.g when Al Mualin first reveals himself.

  71. Kaiser Tekenduis December 17, 2010 at 4:04 pm -      #171

    Here’s a good thinker…
    In Salvatore’s books, and other dnd resources, it refers to the weave and finding the right ‘paths’ to utilising magic (eg pcionicists being active during the time of troubles due to discovering new paths to use their powers). And also how wizards must study and intimately know the weave. So we could question what would happen if the assassins’ magics became unstable or unusable within a different realm. Certainly no mages themselves, the assassins mightnot be able to use their magic and/or items.
    Or do you think already crafted weapons that are finalised would not be affected since they don’t draw from or manipulate the weave?

  72. Blood Dancer December 21, 2010 at 9:52 am -      #172

    Firstly, the apple is not standard gear. So that’s out.

    “From what i have read online about Waylander, Altair would have the guy before he could even blink.”

    The irony of this statement is rather annoying.

    This was Waylander in his early forties:

    ““Cadoras watched as Waylander rode from the wagons, heading away to the north towards a range of low hills. The hunter lay flat on his belly, his chin in his hands; behind him, on the far side of the hill, his horse was tethered. He eased his way back from the hill-top, walked slowly to the steel-grey gelding and unbuckled the thick saddle roll, opening it out on the ground. Within the canvas wrapping was an
    assortment of weapons ranging from a dismantled crossbow to a set of ivory-handled throwing knives. Cadoras assembled the crossbow and selected ten bolts which he placed in a doeskin quiver at his belt.

    Then he carefully slid two throwing knives into each of his calf-length riding boots, and two more into sheaths at his side. His sword was strapped to his saddle, along with a Vagrian cavalry bow tipped with gold; the quiver for this hung on his saddle horn. Fully equipped, Cadoras returned the saddle roll to its
    place and buckled the straps. Then he took some dried meat from his saddlebags and sat back on the grass and stared at the sky, watching the gathering storm clouds drifting in from the east.

    It was time for the kill.

    There had been little joy in the hunting. He could have killed Waylander on a dozen occasions – but then it took two to play the game, and Waylander had refused to take part. At first this had irritated Cadoras, making him feel slightly as if his victim had held him in contempt. But as the days passed he had realised that Waylander simply did not care. And so Cadoras had not loosed the fatal shaft.

    He wanted to know why. He was filled with an urge to ride in to the wagons and sit opposite Waylander, to ask him…

    Cadoras had been a hunter for more than a decade and he knew the role better than any man alive. In the deadliest game of all he was a master – understanding every facet, every iron rule: the hunter stalked,
    the prey evaded or ran, or turned and fought back. But the prey never ignored.

    Why?

    Cadoras had expected Waylander to hunt him, had even set elaborate traps around his camp-site. Night after night he had hidden in trees, his bow slung, while his blankets lay by warm fires covering only rocks and branches.

    Today would end the burning questions. He would kill Waylander and go home.

    Home?

    High walls and soul-less rooms, and cold-eyed messengers with offers of gold for death. Like a tomb with windows.

    ‘Curse you, Waylander! Why did you make it so easy?’

    ‘It was the only defence.’ answered Waylander and Cadoras spun round as a sword of shining steel rested on his back. He froze and then relaxed, his right hand inching, towards the hidden knives in his boot. ‘Don’t be foolish,’ said Waylander. ‘I can open your throat before you blink.’”

    This is Waylander ten years later:

    “Kreeg crouched low in the bushes, his crossbow loaded. How easy, he thought, unable to suppress a smile.

    Find Waylander and kill him. He had to admit that the prospect of such a hunt had frightened him. After all, Waylander the Slayer was no mean opponent. When his family were slain by raiders, he roamed the land until he had hunted down every one of the killers. Waylander was a legend among the Guild, a capable swordsman, but a brilliant knife-fighter and a crossbowman without peer. More than this he was said to possess mystical abilities, always sensing when danger was near.

    Kreeg sighted the crossbow at the tall man’s back. Mystical abilities? Pah. In one heartbeat he would be dead.

    The man at the graveside picked up a clay bowl and moved towards the pool.

    Kreeg shifted his aim, but his intended victim crouched down, filling the bowl.

    Kreeg lowered his bow a fraction, slowly letting out his held breath. Waylander was side-on now, and a sure killing shot would have to be to the head. What was he doing with the water? Kreeg watched the tall man kneel by the roses, tipping the bowl and splashing the contents around the roots. He’ll go back to the grave, thought Kreeg. And once there I’ll take him.

    (…)

    ‘He’s very quiet,’ said Sheras, ‘but I wouldn’t like to see his bad side, if you take my meaning. Hard man. Cold eyes. He used to be almost friendly, but then his wife died – five … six years ago. Horse fell, rolled on her. There were two daughters, twins. Good-looking girls. One married a boy from the south and moved away. The other is still with him. Shy child. Too thin for my taste.’

    Goldin the tavern-keeper, a thin-faced refugee from the Gothir lands, also remembered him. ‘When the wife was killed he came here for a while and drank his sorrows away. He didn’t say much. One night he just collapsed and I left him lying outside the door. His daughters came and helped him home. They were
    around twelve then. The city elders were talking of removing them from his care. In the end he paid for places at the Priests’ School and they lived there for almost three years.’

    Kreeg was uplifted by Goldin’s tale. If the great Waylander had taken to drinking heavily then he was no longer to be feared. But his hopes evaporated as the tavern-keeper continued.

    ‘He’s never been popular. Keeps to himself too much,’ said Goldin. ‘But he killed a rogue bear last year, and that pleased people. The bear slaughtered a young farmer and his family. Dakeyras hunted it down. Amazing! He used a small crossbow. Taric saw it – the bear charged him and he just stood there, then,
    right at the last moment, as the bear reared up before him he put two bolts up through its open mouth and into the brain. Taric says he’s never seen the like. Cold as ice.’

    Kreeg found Taric, a slim blond hostler, working at the Earl’s stables.

    ‘We tracked the beast for three days,’ he said, sitting back on a bale of hay and drinking deeply from the leather-bound flask of brandy Kreeg offered him. ‘Never saw him break sweat – and he’s not a young man. And when the bear reared up he just levelled the bow and loosed. Incredible! There’s no fear in the
    man.’

    (…)

    Kreeg’s spirits had soared anew. This was what he had been hoping for. Hunting a man through a forest was chancy at best. Knowing his victim’s habits made the task slightly less hazardous, but to find there was one place the victim always visited… that was a gift from the gods. And a graveside at that.

    Waylander’s mind would be occupied, full of sorrow, perhaps, and fond memories.
    So it had proved. Kreeg, following Taric’s directions, had located the waterfall soon after dawn this morning, and found a hiding place which overlooked the headstone. Now all that was left was the killing shot. Kreeg’s gaze flickered to the ebony crossbow, still lying on the grass beside the grave.

    Ten thousand in gold!He licked his thin lips and carefully wiped his sweating palm on the leaf-green tunic he wore.

    The tall man walked back to the pool, collecting more water, then crossed to the furthest rose bushes,
    crouching once more by the roots. Kreeg switched his gaze to the headstone. Forty feet away. At that distance the barbed bolt would punch through Waylander’s back, ripping through the lungs and exiting through the chest. Even if he missed the heart his victim would die within minutes, choking on his own blood.

    Kreeg was anxious for the kill to be over and his eyes sought out the tall man.

    He was not in sight.

    Kreeg blinked. The clearing was empty.

    ‘You missed your chance,’ came a cold voice.

    Kreeg swung, trying to bring the crossbow to bear. He had one glimpse of his victim, arm raised, something shining in his hand. The arm swept down. It was as if a bolt of pure sunlight had exploded within Kreeg’s skull. There was no pain, no other sensation. He felt the crossbow slipping from his hands, and the world spinning.”

    The shiny object in Waylander’s hand was a knife.

    So while Kreeg was introduced in the beggining of the second book, Cadoras was widely acknowledged to be Waylander’s equal.

    “Cadoras was not a man to be taken lightly. His was a name spoken in whispers in the darkest alleyways of forbidden cities: Cadoras the Stalker, the Dream Ender. It was said that none could match him for cunning and few for cruelty, but Waylander dismissed the more wild stories, for he knew how legend could add colour to the whitest of deeds.

    For he, of all men, could understand Cadoras.

    Waylander the Slayer, the Soul Stealer, the Chaos Blade.

    Saga-poets sang dark songs about the wandering assassin, the stranger, the Waylander, choosing always to finish their tale-telling with Waylander’s exploits as the fires guttered low and the tavern dwellers prepared for a walk home in the dark. Waylander had sat unnoticed in more than one inn while
    they entertained the crowds with his infamy. They would begin their performances with stories of golden heroes, beautiful princesses, courageous tales of shadow-haunted castles and silver knights. But as the hours passed they introduced an edge of fear, a taste of terror, and men would walk out into darkened streets with fearful eyes which searched the shadows for Cadoras the Stalker, or for Waylander.

    How the poets would dance with glee when they heard that Cadoras had been paid to stalk the Slayer!”

    Plus it has been mentioned on another thread that while Altair’s marks only see as far as the eye allows it, Waylander’s tend to go beyond that.

    If Lucien or Altair so much as try to ambush him they will suffer similar fates to the above shown in the excerpts.

    Waylander’s reaction time:

    “As Waylander stepped from the cabin, a shadow flickered to his left and he dived forward as a sword blade whistled over his head. Hitting the ground on his shoulder, he rolled to his knees, his knife flashing through the air to take his attacker under the chin. The wounded man sank to his knees, tearing the blade loose, blood gushing from his throat as he toppled forward. Waylander swung round, scanning the trees, then rose and walked to the corpse. He had never seen the man before.”

    If Altair and Lucien so much as try to ambush the slayer their fates will not differ from Kreeg’s.

  73. Artemis13 December 29, 2010 at 3:38 pm -      #173

    Well… let me join this little discussion. I only hope You’ll be able to understand me.

    My personal choice in this battle is, no doubt about it, Artemis. His abilities are great and his unique equpment gives him many possibilities to fight against Gandalf and other assasins.
    I don’t know Waylander, but as I read previous posts, I suppose, that he’s the most dangerous of three others assasins. BTW: I can buy first two books with him, is it worth?

    Altair is number three. He’s got abilities, Apple of Eden and his Eagle Vision, wchich can help him with overcoming Lucien and guards. I think that he doesn’t have chance against Artemi or Waylander.

    I think, that Lucien can’t stand against other assasin’s and Gandalf. He isn’t very good fighter, nor have some special abilities with exception of invisibility. I think, but it’s my personal opinion, that he’s too weak.

    And that’s all. Hope to read some answers soon.

  74. Blood Dancer January 5, 2011 at 2:32 am -      #174

    @Artemis

    “I can buy first two books with him, is it worth?”

    They are worth every penny you spend. That is the way with all David Gemmell Works.

    And the apple is not standard equipment.

  75. Artemis13 January 6, 2011 at 4:40 pm -      #175

    Good knowing it. BTW: I bought them just yesterday.

    And even if Apple isn’t standart he still uses is in Bloodlines. Only once but still… And I think that giving it to him, wouldn’t overpowering him, would you agree?

    Oh, and I’m writing little story with few assasins, Artemis, Ezio, Rikimaru (Tenchu series), Kylar Stern, Waylander and Dubhe. And it’s all thanks to this thread, Well I still havo to read Waylander books first.

  76. Blood Dancer January 6, 2011 at 4:46 pm -      #176

    Read those books first. Waylander is part of Gemmel’s fighting trinity (the others are Druss the Legend and Skilgannon the Damned).

    for this match, I’m putting my money on either Artemis or Waylander. They are the most skilled by eons.

    As for the apple…nah… ALtair fans make him look as if he can’t wipe his ass without using it.

    Also, if it does go down between Artemis and Waylander, there’s still the fact that Gandalf is technically a demigod.

  77. Artemis13 January 10, 2011 at 10:37 am -      #177

    Yaa I know. This way or another killing Gandalf would be extremely dificult. Assasins should attack him silently, from behind/shadows/in sleep. In other way… well Artemis would stand chance in meele fight, more, he probably would kill Gandalf in this way without many problems (at least it’s my opinion). Waylander could shoot him with his crossbow. But still… if they had to stand in front of him, in day they would probably die, before know what happened.

  78. claric25 March 23, 2011 at 5:21 pm -      #178

    after reading the posts im gonna give it to Artemis but Waylander is no slouch and might kill Gandalf first

  79. Lezard Valeth March 23, 2011 at 5:38 pm -      #179

    Entreri gets my vote. While I am not too sure any of these assassins could kill Gandalf, I’d have to say Entreri comes the closest, along with Waylander. It’s difficult to debate who is the better between those two, at least for this particular mission.

  80. Blood Dancer April 11, 2011 at 12:48 pm -      #180

    This is Waylander telling his daughter just how good he is with the weapons he usually employs:

    “‘I thought you were the best,’ she chided.

    ‘Fathers always seem that way,’ he said drily. ‘But no. With bow or knife I am superb. With the sword? Only excellent.’”

    Feats on Waylander…where to start.

    Reaction Time:

    “As Waylander stepped from the cabin, a shadow flickered to his left and he dived forward as a sword blade whistled over his head. Hitting the ground on his shoulder, he rolled to his knees, his knife flashing through the air to take his attacker under the chin. The wounded man sank to his knees, tearing the blade loose, blood gushing from his throat as he toppled forward. Waylander swung round, scanning the trees, then rose and walked to the corpse. He had never seen the man before.”

    Here’s when we first see Waylander in action and close combat:

    “‘Take him!’ ordered Dectas and swords sang into the air as the five men attacked. Swiftly the newcomer swept his cloak over one shoulder and lifted his right arm. A black bolt tore into the chest of the nearest man, a second entered the belly of a burly warrior with upraised sword. The stranger dropped the small double crossbow and lightly leapt back. One of his attackers was dead and a second knelt clutching the bolt in his belly.

    The newcomer loosened the thong which held his cloak, allowing it to fall to the ground behind him.

    From twin sheaths he produced two black-bladed knives.

    ‘Fetch the horse!’ he ordered.

    The remaining two hesitated, glancing to Dectas for guidance. Black blades hissed through the air and both men dropped without a sound.

    Dectas was alone.”

    More close combat on Waylander during a siege:

    “Waylander heard a scrabbling noise behind him and swung round to see a hand grasp the ramparts as a Vagrian soldier pulled himself over the wall. Another followed … and another. Waylander cocked his bow and fired and the first soldier pitched backwards and rolled from the battlements. The second took a bolt through the shoulder, but ran on, screaming his hatred. The assassin dropped his bow and dragged his sword from its scabbard, blocking a downward cut; then he kicked out to catch the man in the groin.

    Yet more fighting.

    “A knife flashed past his head and he hit the ground on one shoulder and rolled. A dark shadow detached itself from the trees, moonlight shining from a curved sword. Waylander rolled to his feet and leapt, his right foot crashed into the man’s head and then – as the stranger staggered – Waylander spun on his heel, his right elbow exploding against the man’s ear. He fell without a sound. Waylander crept to the right.

    There in a shallow hollow lay Danyal, her dress ripped open, her legs spread. A man was kneeling over her as Waylander slid the rope from his shoulder and opened the noose.

    Moving forward silently he came up behind the man, slipping the noose over his head and jerking it tight.

    He fell back, scrabbling at the noose, but Waylander pulled him from his feet and dragged him across the hollow to a tall elm. Swiftly he hurled the rope over a branch some ten feet from the ground and hauled the struggling man to his feet. The attacker’s eyes were bulging and his face above the dark beard was purple.

    (…)

    At the boulder Waylander stirred, his eyes drifting open but his body heavy with deep sleep. Above him a man crouched, a wickedly curved blade in his hand.

    ‘Now you die,’ said the man and Waylander was powerless to stop him. But suddenly the man froze and his jaw dropped. Sleep fell from the assassin and his hand whipped out to punch his assailant from his feet. As he fell, Waylander saw that a long goose-feathered shaft had pierced the base of his skull.

    Rolling to his left, Waylander lunged upright with knives in his hands as a dark figure leapt at him, He blocked the downward sweep of the sword, catching it on the hilt-guard of his left-hand knife. Dropping his shoulder, he stabbed his attacker low in the groin; the man twisted as he fell, tearing the knife from Waylander’s hand.

    The clouds closed in once more and Waylander threw himself to the ground, rolled several yards and lay still

    (…)

    Butaso turned as the guard entered. ‘What do you want?’

    ‘The return of my gift,’ said Waylander. Butaso spun on his heel, a scream beginning in his throat –a scream cut off by six inches of shimmering steel hammering into his neck. His fingers scrambled for the blade, and his eyes widened in agony; then he fell to his knees, his gaze fixed on the tall figure standing impassively before him.

    The last thing he heard as his eyes closed was the clash of steel as his guards rushed into the tent.

    Waylander turned, his sword blocking a wild cut. Twisting his wrist, he sent his opponent’s blade flying through the air. The guard wrenched a knife from its scabbard, but died as Waylander’s sword lanced his ribs. More guards pushed forward, forcing the assassin back to the centre of the tent”

    And reaction time/reflexes:

    “He looked up and was about to ask Miriel to throw when she suddenly hurled the board high. The sunlight seared his eyes but he waited until the spinning board reached its highest point. Extending his arm he pressed the first bronze trigger. The bolt flashed through the air, hammering into the board, half splitting it. As it fell he released the second bolt. The board exploded into shards.”

    Well this is his ranged prowess:

    “The Nadir came in a rush and two went down instantly. Two more fell as Waylander swept up Durmast’s bow. Then they were on him and with a terrifying scream he leapt forward, his sword cleaving among them. The path was narrow and they could not circle him. The sword scythed among them and they backed away from his rage.

    Six were now dead.

    Waylander staggered back to his crossbow and loaded it, blood running freely now from a wound in his leg. He wiped the sweat from his eyes and listened.

    The faintest sound of cloth on rock came to him and he glanced up as a Nadir warrior leapt from the boulder with knife raised. Waylander threw himself back, his finger jerking on the bronze triggers of the crossbow. Both bolts hammered into the diving warrior, but as he landed on top of the assassin his knife buried itself in Waylander’s shoulder. Waylander pushed the corpse clear and rolled to his feet. The Nadir knife jutted from his flesh, but he left it where it was – to tear it loose would be to bleed to death.

    With difficulty he strung the crossbow.

    The sun was dropping in the sky and the shadows lengthened.

    The Nadir would wait for night…

    And Waylander could not stop them.

    The fingers of his left hand felt numb and he clenched them into a weak fist. Pain swept up and around the Nadir knife in his shoulder and Waylander swore. As best he could, he bound the wound in his thigh, but it continued to ooze blood.

    He felt cold and began to shiver. As he lifted his hand to wipe the sweat from his eyes a Nadir bowman leapt into view and an arrow flashed from his bow. Waylander lurched left and fired and the archer vanished from sight. As Waylander sank back against the wall of the path he glanced down and saw that the black-feathered shaft had struck him above the left hip and punched its way through the flesh and muscle. Gingerly he reached behind him. The point of the arrow had exited high under his ribs and with a
    groan he snapped the shaft.

    The Nadir charged …

    Two bolts punched home and the enemy dropped behind the rocks.”

    Another account on Waylander from the eyes of another.

    “‘He’s never been popular. Keeps to himself too much,’ said Goldin. ‘But he killed a rogue bear last year, and that pleased people. The bear slaughtered a young farmer and his family. Dakeyras hunted it down.

    Amazing! He used a small crossbow. Taric saw it – the bear charged him and he just stood there, then, right at the last moment, as the bear reared up before him he put two bolts up through its open mouth and into the brain. Taric says he’s never seen the like. Cold as ice.’”

  81. Legato May 24, 2011 at 4:57 am -      #181

    I’m aware this is an old thread now, but as I joined, purely to comment on this, I thought it prudent to get it out of the way. It seems like this has turned into a little bit of a “Who the hell is Waylander” thread, no? I think an important point to note, that hasn’t been pressed home yet, is the fact that (adding to to the whole “What’s up with this bloke with the crossbow” thing) Waylander is difficult to compare, due to the fact he isn’t just an assassin; He’s a murderer. Dakyras was a family man. He was not a trained assassin. He was just very, VERY bright, and Waylander was the alter ego that emerged after the death of his family (a quick FYI, when he gets sent to save them, it may be the best moment in a Gemmell novel). With the other 3, there is a sense of right and wrong. With Waylander, his conscience can’t be questioned about the thoughtless slaughter of his opponents, as he doesn’t have a conscience. This is just a thought, and I wonder how it plays out (if indeed, anyone ever comments). Oh, and Jwlynas? The Demon Dogs were (and I’m not certain, but pretty sure) the Kraloth. And more important than Druss’ code?
    “Nadir we,
    Youth born,
    Axe wielders,
    Blood letters,
    Victors still”.
    Tenaka would dick all four of them, then enslave Gandalf.

  82. Jwlynas May 24, 2011 at 8:22 am -      #182

    Welcome Aboard Legato

    Thank you for the Demon Dog name, that’s been nagging at me since I lost the book. However, the code you mentioned was the Nadir Code. Druss is, most emphatically, not Nadir.

    As to Waylanders personal Morals, its an interesting point, but none of the assassins have any issues with moral quandaries. Barring, possible Altair. He doesn’t seem the type to kill civilians, whereas the others will if its absolutely needed. Or possibly if it might be easier.

    Tenaka Khan? Aye, he’d destroy them, but he’s not a sneaky assassin type, he’s your typical swordmaster/wardancer type.

  83. Cananatra May 25, 2011 at 4:43 pm -      #183

    Waylanders morals seem to shift. If left alone for a while he’s mellow, if in danger he kills anything without hesitation. I’d have to give this to waylander myself.

    Also, on a totally unrelated note, I always thought Dace was a better fighter then skilgannon Jwlynas. Given equal weapons in a fight between the two i’d give it to dace, it’s just the swords of night and day tend to boost skilgannon.

  84. Blood Dancer May 26, 2011 at 12:35 pm -      #184

    “Given equal weapons in a fight between the two i’d give it to dace, it’s just the swords of night and day tend to boost skilgannon.”

    This dace person, is he from Dark Moon? Until I read about him, I’ll back Skilgannon (hell, i’d backk him against Superman)

    “It seems like this has turned into a little bit of a “Who the hell is Waylander” thread, no?”

    That is the problem with most threads featuring Gemmellian characters, they need extensive introduction. In this particular thread, it went that way because of the altair fans.

  85. Dualgunner May 27, 2011 at 2:13 am -      #185

    To say that the fault of the whole thing was because of Altair fans, I think you are overstepping that a little bit. While I can’t back up Altair, clearly outclassed in every possible way here, I will say that some points brought up about him are valid.

    We all know he is the Master Assassin of his realm and time period. Even though the Piece of Eden is not “standard equipment”, it is the only thing that would have given him any semblance of a chance in the first place.

    Without it, we’re even assuming that there is a crowd. Are we in the middle of a war, or are we in the woods? I doubt he could hide amongst NOBODY anyway. Even with his Eagle Vision, which is the vision of the gods, he wouldn’t really stand much of a chance against ANYONE here.

    You see, he is mortal. He CAN’T wipe his ass compared to these other guys without the Apple. Why? Because they are all godly. I haven’t read any Waylander or seen any instances of Artemis, but from what I have read, he is outclassed no matter how you look at it.

    In blades? Shot before the chance occurs. Throwing knives? Yeah right. Dodged, more than likely, then a retaliation “BAM” to Altair’s unprotected noggin.

    Even assuming he could get close to Gandalf for the kill, he would never be able to do it because why? Gandalf is a DEMIGOD.

    So yes, I am complaining a little that we have Altair here with nothing that could possibly aid him up to the other’s standards. I also know that it isn’t standard equipment and is not mentioned specifically in his inventory to say otherwise.

    I have no knowledge of Waylander or Lucien, like I said. I would LOVE to read the Gemmel series, though, it sounds like an awesome series. I am only here to say that we have an outmatched person in the midst.

    Before I forget Lucien, he doesn’t count for much going off of what we saw of him. Guy doesn’t take much to kill, and assuming he has the Blade of Woe, which isn’t even his, (he gives that to the player calling it a virgin blade. He never used it, it was never his) he still would have no more luck than Altair.

    That’s my two cents, though. Any idea where I should start reading the Gemmel series(es)?

  86. Blood Dancer May 27, 2011 at 12:42 pm -      #186

    This match is really between Waylander and Artemis. Lucien and Altair are just fodder. I know little about Lucien but I am not impressed. I have played Assassin’s Creed and Altair has nothing on Waylander or Artemis.

    This whole Waylander outclassing Altair thing has kind de-railed the match. It is about 4 assassins looking to kill Gandalf (a veritable demigod) and takes place in the Middle-Earth. I’d say put them in a wooded area but then again more of a disadvantage to Altair. The others – at least Waylander and Artemis – excell at any terrain and against either magic buffed or peak human (humanish) foes. Barring Al-Mualim (who had the power of the apple) Altair hardly goes against this type of enemies frequently, unless he does so in the PSP games which I have not played.

    You want to read gemmell’s books? Ok. here’s the full list of the drenai series:

    1- Knights of Dark Renown
    2- Morningstar
    3- Waylander
    4- Waylander II: In the Realm of The Wolf
    5- Waylander III: Hero in The Shadows
    6- The First Chronicles of Druss the Legend
    7- Legend of Deathwalker (Druss Novel)
    8- White Wolf (Skilgannon Novel)
    9- Legend (Druss Novel)
    10- The King Beyond the Gate
    11- Quest for Lost Heroes
    12- Winter Warriors
    13- The Swords of Night and Day. (Skilgannon Novel)

    You can start anywhere really seeing as the novels are mostly stand alone but I am doing it from the start even though White Wolf and The Swords of Night and Day were the first two I read.

  87. Cananatra May 27, 2011 at 12:53 pm -      #187

    “This dace person, is he from Dark Moon? Until I read about him, I’ll back Skilgannon (hell, i’d backk him against Superman)”

    Ye this is Dace from Dark Moon. You should read it, it’s good.

  88. Jwlynas April 15, 2013 at 2:29 pm -      #188

    We really need more matches like this.

  89. Cananatra April 15, 2013 at 2:36 pm -      #189

    So true

  90. Gavri November 5, 2013 at 6:45 am -      #190

    As soon as Artemis found out that others were going after his target, he would make sue that they wouldn’t steal his kill.
    I don’t know much about the Waylander, if he’s tough, Artemis will seek him out first for the fight. If he’s not, well…

    After that though I’m not sure if he could kill Gandalf. If his pride made him attack this mighty opponent fairly (like he does with Drizzt), then he doesn’t really stand a chance, but stealthily, I think he would kill the wizard (unfortunately).

  91. Cananatra November 5, 2013 at 8:55 am -      #191

    You don’t exactly offer many reasons why you believe that would come to pass Gavri.

  92. Gavri November 8, 2013 at 7:43 am -      #192

    All of these assassins excel in stealth.
    If Artemis had the element of surprise, then he could probably finish any of they others with a single blow.
    Once again, I’m not sure about the Waylander, but I know that Altair and Lachance have a level of honour, so are unlikely to make an attempt to kill another assassin.
    Artemis is more ruthless, and doesn’t have any rules. He would gladly slaughter rivals if it meant that he could have the pleasure of killing his target.
    If his pride clouded his judgement in the killing of these rivals and he challenged them head on, I would still tip Artemis as a better swordsman than them, and since I’ve heard that Waylander uses a crossbow, I doubt that Artemis, if given the choice, would fight him at a range.
    If Artemis caught Gandalf by surprise, then he could finish it swiftly.
    Gandalf is a great warrior, he has fought thousands of foul beings in his time, and has the quick thinking to find an advantage out of most situations, as he displays in the defeat of the balrog, and of the trolls in the hobbit.
    I assume he could find a way out of a frontal assault from Artemis through this quick thinking, as his defensive magic and combat abilities would hopefully be enough for him to come up with some way to escape, or win.

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