Gundam Vs Star Trek

Gundam Vs Star Trek

Here is a match that would be extremely entertaining to watch. While I am not as familiar with the Gundam universe as I am with Star Trek, I know they both can pack a punch.

Who wins this galactic showdown?

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102 Comments on "Gundam Vs Star Trek"

  1. flyboy51 January 11, 2009 at 2:42 pm -      #1

    Star Trek. While i think Gundam is badass, Star Trek “packs a bigger punch” because of the huge story line and all the tech and weapons.

  2. The One Sin January 11, 2009 at 7:33 pm -      #2

    The gundam universe has this. I am going to assume all of the organizations from every series is united against the trekies.

    I’ll step aside for the moment and see how star trek feel they can compete.

  3. Dan January 11, 2009 at 8:21 pm -      #3

    Gundam would own Star Trek; they are more mobile, have more weapons and are generall more easy to control.

  4. Locutus January 11, 2009 at 11:41 pm -      #4

    Star Trek wins this. Gundam would have no chance in hell against the combined powers of the Borg, Dominion, Federation, Klingons, Roumlans, and the thousands of other advanced species in the Star Trek galaxy. On top of that, the tech of Star Trek completely surpasses Gundam’s tech and is much more devastating. The yield of a standard photon torpedo can reach into the hundreds of megatons.

    I would love to see the Gundam suits try to outmaneuver a volley of photon torpedoes travelling at low warp speeds.

  5. Rob (Expertimp) January 12, 2009 at 10:10 am -      #5

    I don’t watch Gundam. But could see one of those Gundam ships ripping apart a star trek vessel very easily with there hands.

  6. The One Sin January 12, 2009 at 7:31 pm -      #6

    You guys wanna talk about packing a bigger punch? Wing zero, the most powerful of the mobile suits seen on Gundam Wing, the weapon that inspired terror in Oz and space colony foces, the beam cannon, was the very definition of devastation, entire battalions of mobile suits and mobile dolls, entire space colonies were destroyed by a single shot from this weapon, star trek ships Will Not hold up. The zero system, designed to continuasly analyze battle data and statistics and feed them back to the pilot, the psychological effects were the removal of fear and emotional prohibitions felt by the pilot, the battle becomes a strategy game, the pilot will not hesitate to use whatever weapons his suit is equipped with, in Wing Zero’s case the infamous rifle I spoke of. Gundanium alloy, all the gundam’s armor plating is made up of this material, near immutable, neutral electric charge, and an incredibly high melting point. It is extremely effective, most who did not know what gundanium was thought the gundams were invincible. A mobile suit pair known as the Vayeate and Mercurious were built by oz using gundanium, Vayeate took a hit from Wing Zero’s beam cannon and was about sixty percent intact. This was the same weapon that literally vaporizes standard mobile suits and blew a space colony to pieces of debris, Gundanium can take a beating.

    Standard mobile suits and mobile dolls, Oz and space colony rebels have them to spare. While the Leo and Ares were primarily made for combat on earth, The leo would later be converted to space combat worthiness. But, however, Oz came up with two mobile suits, Taureus and Virgo, and gave them the mobile doll system. These were automated units capable of carrying out destruction of targets with more accuracy than most human pilots. The virgo was a larger, slower unit but carried a large beam cannon to compensate, though not as powerful as Wing Zero’s, virgos were dispatched in overwhelming numbers to terminate a target. Taurus mobile dolls were a lighter unit but didn’t quite have virgo level firepower, they could change form into a highly agile fighter form to quickly relocate when needed. At space fortress libra a modified doll control system was made combining it with a zero system, it was given an idividual named dorothy, one of the more influential members of the white fang. The system comprised of the system, a helmet worn by the user displaying the battle and allowed the user to control mobile doll forces by will alone. The last version of the Virgo were equip with electromagnetic shield generators created by three discs orbiting the unit, dorothy would have three virgos huddle and combine their shields and create a shielded firing platform capable of firing in any direction.

    Space fortress Libra, Oz’s last hope for space supremacy, taken over by rebels lead by former Oz ace pilot Zechs Marquis. At the center of the sinister installation is a beam weapon that easily dwarfed the feared beam cannon of wing Zero, once fired upon earth, it caused destruction that looked like god’s wrath in magnitude, Judging by what I saw, most countries would be wiped clean.

    Now I could easily go on and give more info on gundams from all the other series’, But I wanna know how star trek forces could go toe to toe with what I explained.

  7. flyboy51 January 12, 2009 at 9:53 pm -      #7

    Species 8472…virtually unbeatable. nuff said. And the borg could assimilate the gundams…that wouldnt be good for non-assimilated gundams…

  8. TL January 12, 2009 at 11:03 pm -      #8

    What about Q, the being with god-like powers?

  9. Locutus January 13, 2009 at 12:24 am -      #9

    Yea there are many godlike species in the Star Trek universe.

    How large are the factions in the Gundam universe? Do they spread across the galaxy?

  10. L-W January 13, 2009 at 2:18 am -      #10

    The Quantum would be enough to obliterate the entire Gundam universe and all of its denizens with a mere flick of the proverbial wrist. Q, having an affinity for the Federation, would probably annihilate every Gundam warrior for simply getting in his way of annoying Piccard.

    Star Trek wins this one on an account of supremely powerful inter-galactic deities.

  11. The One Sin January 13, 2009 at 4:50 pm -      #11

    Okay, I forgot about the quantum, Am I safe to assume that is the only trump card? At the time of my last post I was thinking tech vs tech. But me knowing the fact that the supernatural beats tech anytime, I might go with star trek if the quantum were involved in the fight, But in a war without them I would still say gundam. BTW the borg could not assimilate gundams, they need a pilot, they are not autonomous like transformers.

  12. Locutus January 13, 2009 at 6:21 pm -      #12

    “it caused destruction that looked like god’s wrath in magnitude, Judging by what I saw, most countries would be wiped clean.”

    Thats it? A fleet made up of 20 Romulan and Cardassian ships destroyed 30 percent of a planet’s crust in just the openning volley.

    The fact is, the Gundam universe just doesn’t have the numbers or tech to repel the amount of firepower Star Trek would bring in. The Borg alone could just swarm hundreds of thousands of cubes through Gundam space, assimilating everything they can. They even have the tech to travel back in time and try to assimilate or destroy Gundam’s Earth. Again, Star Trek has thousands of species with all types of incredible technology. With all that power and knowledge combined, Gundam is simply screwed.

  13. L-W January 13, 2009 at 7:45 pm -      #13

    Only one trump card is needed when said trump card is capable of utterly and entirely obliterating all opposition with only a mere notion in their direction.

    With Q’s almost “older brother” like affinity for the Federation and Star Trek denizens in general, I doubt that this fight would go on any longer than mere seconds if Gundam ever presented itself as a threat in any way shape or form.

  14. Matapiojo January 14, 2009 at 11:37 am -      #14

    I tend as a rule to never justify the reasons behind the elements in Anime storylines. There are of course a few exceptions, but Gundam is really not one of them.

    So parting from that rule of thumb, I will take the logical avenue and give this to the far richer universe of Star Trek.

  15. WTFMACHINE January 14, 2009 at 12:26 pm -      #15

    even admiral odama could PW3N gundum, Galactica i’m talking about.
    the borg alone would be enough to assimulate anything. the klingons would be ripping apart the gundoms arms and whos that guy from nemisis. ahh pretore shinzon. with his awsome ship the predator. and also Captain James T. Kirk all he has to do is poke any gundom and the machine would just fall apart.

  16. The One Sin January 14, 2009 at 8:50 pm -      #16

    Locutus:”Thats it? A fleet made up of 20 Romulan and Cardassian ships destroyed 30 percent of a planet’s crust in just the openning volley.”

    You failed to see my point. In your post a fleet fired upon a planet. One unit, one space installation carried that much firepower, capable of putting thermonuclear weapons to shame, one unit compared to a fleet warships. and with the mobile doll force defending and epyon at the lead. heavy losses would surely be suffered by star trek fleets. I still acknowledge that the quantum would decimate the gundam universe I just wanted to demonstrate the already underestimated abilities of the gundam universe.

    I mentioned A gundam known as epyon. I was too busy bragging on Wuing Zero to describe some of the others, Here is a web page describing it better than I can: “The Gundam Epyon. It is questionably the strongest of the Gundams built during the Wing series. It boasts an incredibly powerful generator system that directly feeds its beam sword, an strong heat rod, and features a second mode for flight that conserves energy use. Equipped with a variation of the Wing Zero’s cockpit system, it destroys all of the pilot’s fears to make him the ultimate warrior. The perfect weapon in every way but one, the Epyon has only one thing that could be called a flaw, it features no long range weapons.”

    This unit’s beam saber hacked straight through a space fortress, destroying it. Among ships from star trek it would move with the utmost agility destroying it the same way it destroyed countless mobile suits and a space fortress

    The most effective tool is as follows:The ZERO (Zoning & Emotional Range Omitted) System is a technology for interfacing the brain of the pilot with the mobile suit’s computer (comparable to the Universal Century’s biocomputer in the F91 Gundam). Only two known mobile suits were ever equipped with this system, the XXXG-00W0 Wing Gundam Zero and the OZ-13MS Gundam Epyon. The ZERO system decreases the pilot’s reaction times as there is no need for traditional visual interfaces. Furthermore, thanks to the advanced computations performed by the computer, the pilot can become aware of future outcomes and possible courses of action that can be taken to achieve total victory or total defeat. However, due to this direct brain interface, as the human brain cannot process the raw data, the system will cause the pilot to vividly “hallucinate” the possible paths that the pilot can take; as the pilot tries to figure out what is going on, the system can overload the brain with too many statistics and estimated values, causing temporary insanity. Examples of this include when Quatre Raberba Winner used the Wing Zero and went on a rampage throughout the colonies, and when Heero Yuy first used the Epyon in battle and went berserk, killing every soldier on both sides. However by the end of the series both Heero and Zechs “master” the ZERO system allowing them to properly use the data that the system gives them.

    Later during the White Fang conflict, Gundam pilot Heero Yuy and White Fang leader Zechs Merquise developed a modified version of the ZERO system that was derived from their respective Gundams. They were given to Gundam pilot Quatre Raberba Winner and White Fang supporter Dorothy Catalonia so that they could lead their respective forces with their maximum potential strategic abilities. Heero installed his into Quatre’s XXXG-01SR Gundam Sandrock (which Quatre would later remove) and Zechs developed his into a helmet for Dorothy to use to control and coordinate the movements of mobile dolls in combat from inside the battleship Libra.
    gundam.wikia.com/wiki/Zero_System

    That said I truly am saddened that the quantum will most likely be involved, because otherwise the gundams would achieve supremacy. And I have read about the borg and it seems that assimilation is not as easy as some made it out to be, especially since some escape assimilation or successfully resist it. If Picard can do it I’m fairly sure some of the gundam pilots can.

  17. L-W January 14, 2009 at 11:49 pm -      #17

    Saddened? Why do you take such a personal stance on everything to a degree that you’re practically offended by almost everyone and anything.

    The Quantum exist whether we like it or not, and their removal would not only be consistent with poor form (“That’s too powerful, you can’t have it!”) in the midst of a debate; but would also be equivalent to stripping Link of his magical attire, denying the Halo array to the forerunners or saying that Darth Vader should not have the force simply because it gives him too much of an advantage. That’s not we work here and you know it.

    Unless anyone can logically contest, I declare unto the admin that I nominate Star Trek on the basis of having a whole pantheon of actual Gods capable of annihilating, undoing, obliterating or even transforming any opposition with only a moment of thought, a blink of an eye, a flick of wrist, etc.

  18. admin January 15, 2009 at 1:08 am -      #18

    Nomination noted, this could be one of the most lopsided victories so far…

  19. Locutus January 15, 2009 at 7:50 am -      #19

    I think you don’t understand what my point is The One Sin. We are not just talking about a few powers in the Alpha or Delta Quadrents, we are talking about the combined strength of the entire Star Trek galaxy. Tell me, are there millions of these Gundams that can travel either at or faster than high warp/transwarp speeds and swarm through the Star Trek galaxy, overcoming the combined powers of countless advanced species? If not, then the damage caused by the Gundam galaxy would be probably be minimal at most before they were overwhelmed and crushed by the scientific and technological might of countless Star Trek species. I highly doubt it would need godlike beings to win this.

    “And I have read about the borg and it seems that assimilation is not as easy as some made it out to be, especially since some escape assimilation or successfully resist it. If Picard can do it I’m fairly sure some of the gundam pilots can. ”

    All it takes is one assimilated Gundam and its pilot for the Borg to possibly adapt and add the tech to their own power.
    You also forgot about their ability to time travel.

  20. The One Sin January 15, 2009 at 5:04 pm -      #20

    L-W:”Saddened? Why do you take such a personal stance on everything to a degree that you’re practically offended by almost everyone and anything.”

    It’s not that, I just really had my hopes up that I could win this, but I was happy to to bring gundam info to the table because we rarely talk about gundam. I was really only sad that I forgot about the quantum and the own they would bring. I just can’t resist the opportunity to really talk about my favorite anime since childhood. Gundam is to me what Warhammer 40k is to you, thats all. And for the record I’m not offended by everyone and everything, you are the only person that has offended me by insulting my intelligence, but I still respect you and your knowledge on these topics so its cool I guess.

    Locutus, Watch Gundam Wing, You will understand the power in the Gundam units.

    So I guess I lost this one too, but hey, my time will come.

  21. Matapiojo January 22, 2009 at 11:25 am -      #21

    “I feel mortified on the Gundams here….they are absolutely look like upstarts and tiresome gnats in the eyes of the Q”

    Gnats with big guns!

    *giggidy*

  22. joe January 25, 2009 at 5:33 pm -      #22

    Except for the devil Gundam which can bring dead soldiers back to life. It also has the power of self-evolution, Self -regeneration, and self-replication.

  23. The One Sin January 25, 2009 at 7:10 pm -      #23

    ‘The technology of the Enterprise is a light year away from the gundams…..example: Light Speed Travel(Gundams don’t have this)”

    Maybe so, but it only takes one gundam to destroy the enterprise, it could use that light speed travel to get out.

  24. The One Sin January 28, 2009 at 5:16 pm -      #24

    Capture? I said one gundam could destroy the enterprise, not capture it. most the leaders in the gundam are too reckless and suicidal to worry about capturing enemy tech, just look at operation meteor and the self detonation devices.

  25. The One Sin January 28, 2009 at 5:20 pm -      #25

    And I really do think that the borg would have the hassle of their lives assimilating gundams and their pilots, if Heero and Zechs can put up with the zero system what will the borg brainwashing do unless it has to do with cybernetics? and the gundam pilots are kinda like kamikaze pilots, some of them wouldn’t hesitate to self detonate and destroy everything around them causing the borg to miss out on another unit to assimilate.

  26. Locutus January 30, 2009 at 3:47 am -      #26

    As Diana said, the Borg could just assimilate everything else. While the the Borg are swarming through Gundam space with thousands of cubes, they will have thousands of other species backing them up with fleets of ships numbering in the millions. Game over.

  27. The One Sin January 30, 2009 at 1:13 pm -      #27

    Nobody has caught on yet, I realize that the gundam universe would lose but its not so cut and dry.

    Operation meteor, colony rebels were going to drop a colony onto earth, killing two billion people and then the gundams would go to earth and gain dominance, Milliardo peacecraft(Zechs) attempted to drop part of libra on earth to the same effect in a last ditch effort. That being their frame of mind, they will sacrifice it all to do all the damage they can to all the targets they can, and having a cockpit system that will show you the most destructive way to kill yourself either doesn’t hurt either.

    Have you ever heard of a scorched earth policy? It’s kind of the same idea.The gundam lose, but not without doing all they can to destroy all they can, including themselves to prevent assimilation.

    I know the Q could beat them with a thought and flick of the wrist, but will they? Will they sit back and enjoy the show until they get bored or suddenly think that they should help?

    Then again, I’ve been talking about the Gundam wing universe, not the other units from another series like the self evolving, self regenerating colony devil gundam.

    But, of course, the quantum, instant win because that is just how over the top startrek is. I would like to see star trek vs wh40k, or gundam vs something not so grossly overpowered.

  28. Locutus January 30, 2009 at 4:21 pm -      #28

    I understand what you’re saying. I still don’t think the Gundams would cause that much damage. Maybe on the scale of the Gundam universe it would be a lot, but not on the Star Trek scale. You think powers such as the Klingons, Romulans, Dominion, etc wouldn’t do what it took to win?
    The Q would probably just sit back and watch. They wouldn’t be needed to achieve a quick victory.

  29. The One Sin January 31, 2009 at 9:27 pm -      #29

    too pathetic? And I suppose you simply assume a clean sweep for star trek, right? And who said all of the gundam universe’s units and people will die? I said that if push came to shove they wouldn’t hesitate. I have been talking about the Gundam wing universe so far, but if I must I can describe the major contenders of a series like Mobile Fighter G Gundam or the others, and their ultimate weapon, the final evolution of the devil gundam, a colony within itself. A unit capable of producing it’s own army, assimilating other units and people(sound familiar?), evolving, and regenerating. If a unit can create weapons, resurrect the dead, and built it’s own mobile suit army, what need is there to destroy every thing when you can create more when you wish. Units like the devil gundam, god gundam, Wing zero, Epyon, Gp02A, death army, Qubeley, The O, Quin mantha, heavenly kings, and all the rest. Star trek would have an awful time without the quantum, thats all there is to it.

  30. CEP February 5, 2009 at 10:35 pm -      #30

    Well, I really like Gundam and, in terms of which one is a more fun, engrossing sci-fi universe, it’s a tough call. In terms of winning a war, however, it’s ridiculously to even compare them. It’s like comparing cavemen to modern militaries or even a flintlock-armed force.

    In Gundam they have to use rotation to generate gravity. That creates extreme problems in terms of manueverability. They don’t have faster-than-light travel so Star Trek forces can pop in, fire a few shots, pop back into warp. Which is actually their standard tactic from TOS. Plus weren’t energy shields like ‘OMG so scary and advanced!!!’ in Gundam?

    Hell, the whole plot device of why the mobile dolls from Gundam Wing were so terrifying was because they could respond faster than humans and had shields. Um, just about everything but tricycles have those in Star Trek. (And the tricycles probably can fly)

    Not to mention that Star Trek tech has inertial dampeners. They don’t have those in Gundam Wing. Even super soldiers like Heero Yuy would be paste at 50g. In Star Trek, they can shift speeds from 0 to several hundred times the speed of light in less than a minute. That’s millions of Gs. Each ‘warp factor’ is supposed to be the speed of light to the *power* of that number, not a multiple of that number.

    And range and devastation of weapons? Even original series talked about laying waste to the surface of a planet inside an hour. That’s one ship. So, from a military standpoint, Gundam is outclassed by the average shuttle-craft. The only advantage is in the Zero system from Gundam Wing. Worthless unless you have massed numbers using it. Too bad it drives nearly everyone insane who uses it.

    Also, with the numbers that just Starfleet can mass on it’s own? Just because the Zero system can predict the future doesn’t mean it can solve everything. Let’s just say that the Zero system can predict everything, and can predict it at faster than the speed of light. Okay, let’s say you have a bunch of pilots who can impossibly all use the future-reading system. It’s still useless. Because of the speed involved with Star Trek technology you would need (for all practical purposes) an infinite number of super-soldiers, in Gundams, all with the Zero system to match the crappiest warp-capable Star Trek ship. They just can’t move fast enough.

    Star Trek vessels also are used to targeting ships travel at near and faster than light speeds. And scorched earth, as a military strategy, is terrible if you only have one port of call (and I’m counting the whole solar system as a port of call). So, that’s out. So, as much as I like Gundam, in all reality, a half dozen long-range passenger shuttles are more than a match for everything the Gundam universe can throw down. You can’t kill what you can’t catch (they can just run away even if they have no weapon systems at all.)

    Gundam universe is just too far behind technologically. No FTL, no control over inertia, no chance. Any other concern is pointless. There’s not even any need for Q, other worlds, other races or even a fleet. A single warp-capable starship from TOS wins inside a day because there is no practical way for Gundams to hurt it.

    And to add insult to injury ST firepower is just irresistible to non-FTL technology. ST ships can dodge all day long and hit Gundams at will. That’s why they have the Prime Directive, exposure to their technology is enough to completely change a planet’s technological landscape, advancing it by hundreds or thousands of years (depending on how primitive it is). I mean, Gundam uses chemical propellants in some of the guns (in a number of the series). They still use hand-guns.

    I mean, you’re kidding me, right?

  31. Cpt Olimar February 6, 2009 at 12:28 am -      #31

    umm what would be the point of a flying tricycle (lol)
    I just thought that was funny.

  32. CEP February 6, 2009 at 7:34 am -      #32

    No, I’m fine, I was just struck by the silliness of comparing two so very different universes. The tricycle thing was supposed to just show how goofy ST’s level of tech can be, sometimes. So much of it is at the *far* end of fiction in terms of science-fiction. Gundam (for all that giant fighting robots would have trouble standing) is rooted in harder science. In Star Trek you have time travel, teleportation (transporter), recreation of people/places/events (holodeck) and have cross-species children (not to mention taking a baby from one species and sticking it in the womb of another, thanks for that DS9). They only thing they haven’t managed yet is ‘M-preg’ and thank God for that, I would *not* want to see Patrick Stewart being thrown a baby shower. (If you want to get weird, I guess you could say Data counts since he built a daughter named Lal for himself)

    Sometimes, Diana, when I type people think I’m getting mad, but I’m really just getting hyperactive.

  33. kano547 March 11, 2009 at 6:25 pm -      #33

    i love gundam but st would win by numbers alone

  34. chris September 9, 2009 at 11:12 pm -      #34

    Turn A and Turn X using moonlight butterfly at 100%.

  35. Mac March 13, 2010 at 5:24 am -      #35

    considering warp drive the only way for the gundams to defeat startrek is if they have warp drive installed on them otherwise i think it will be a one sided battle, and I love gundams but the Gundam Infinity justice or Legend ZGMF X666 have the best chance of destrying the enterprise since if he manage to surprise the enterprise even the shields of the enterprise will be useless….but only if they can ambush enterprise and Q no one can defeat him but i think he wont destroy the gundams(thats the fun in that) in fact he might even help them just to make the fight a bit more interesting like placing warp drives in Gundams :D

  36. tarlison March 13, 2010 at 7:00 am -      #36

    He still wont kill picard :D he might just let the warp drive equipped gundam to pound the enterprise just enough to annoy picard :)

  37. Chuck inglish December 30, 2010 at 1:26 am -      #37

    man I grew up watching gundam wing and G Gundam on toonami oh and star trek is for nerds so I’m going with Gundam…. “it’s a gundam”

  38. Sauroposeidon March 11, 2011 at 12:24 am -      #38

    Turn A Gundam cheats its way to victory..

    Or.

    Nu Gundam cheats its way to victory..

    Or.

    00 Gundam cheats its way to victory…

    Or.

    Insert random teenage pilot (probably a psychic) cheating their way to victory.

    As cool as the mecha are, that’s all what most of Gundam boils down to in the end. Despite that, it’ll never be as bad as the smear that is Voyager. That show alone costs Star Trek its win here all by itself.

  39. tartorus March 13, 2011 at 7:51 pm -      #39

    from what i have seen gundam is just a bunch of giant robot samurai star trek owns them

  40. Sauroposeidon April 28, 2011 at 2:54 pm -      #40

    @ Tartorus

    I haven’t really seen an argument for how Star Trek would win..

    Gundam 00 Quan[T] has FTL, since it teleports and for some reason also uses wormholes.

    Q probably isn’t going to trump the apparently unending power of Psycco frames, which do basically whatever the writer wants.

    I’m not sure how Trek ships are going to stop the Zeta Gundam, since it also does whatever it wants when the plot calls for it, going beyond anything the machine is actually capable of thanks to the never explained Bio-Sensor.

    ZZ comes with one too.

    So does the F91.

    There are multiple weapons in Gundam which wipe out targets that are over 5 kilometers in size with a single all consuming blast. Nothing in Trek that is used with any numbers seems capable of that. The one time I’ve seen a bombardment in trek it was taking out like maybe a city block with a single torpedo. These “Colony Killer” weapons are used on even mass produced units in Gundam.

    There’s also minovsky interference.. which cross over games imply AU Gundam tech is mostly shielded against, but the sensor range, weapon potency, ect of trek equipment will be much hampered, their shields and teleporters are going to be the most notably affected after that. They’ll be forced in to brutal, hard, close in fighting where half of their stuff is going to be acting out.

    The Borg aren’t going to assimilate a thing. They’ll get assimilated by the ELS, if the Devil Gundam doesn’t get to them first. These two factions alone are likely able to stop anything from leaving the Earth Sphere once it arrives. The more you fight either of them, the more dangerous they’re going to get. Losing even one ship immediately gives Gundam an even footing in every area Trek over comes them. Could you imagine what might happen when a Trek fleet shows up to provide reinforcements and to greet them are a few hundred shiny, silver Borg Cubes just sitting there, waiting? What if the ELS replicate the dues-ex-machina psycco frames in such numbers that they become less of a plot device and more of constant weapon employed in every engagement, all the time, with full power at the ready?

    Did I mention Pyscco Frames? That do whatever they want when the plot calls for it? There’s at least three mobile suits that I know of which are equipped with these.

    There’s also the Zero System, the Newtypes, the EXAM system, ALICE, the list goes on of things that will make the Trek ships not even know they’re about to get turned to cinders.

    There’s also the cloaking technology, ohhh the cloaking technology. Beyond just spritzing Minovsky Particles (or GN particles for that matter) willy nilly, Gundam has become rife with the cloaking tech over recent years. In the Gundam 00 anime they are able to cloak vast areas.

    Really it seems like Gundam’s been better than Trek in terms of fire power for a while, but now they’re catching up in almost every other area.

    And then there’s the fact that almost anyone who can be considered good will be siding with the Gundam universe thanks to Setsuna and the Gundam 00 Quan[T]’s Quantum Burst mode… which promotes understanding and leads in most cases to everyone putting their guns down. Psychopaths and the like of course are not really effected by this.. but you only really need to use it on Kirk once his shirt is ripped anyways and then he’ll stomp the rest of Trek in to the ground because he’s Kirk. The only downside to this is that it may very likely cause this to become a Gundam & Trek Heroes VS Gundam & Trek Villains.

    To say Gundam wins because they’re samurai looking robots is an awful argument. I don’t like how the Turn A Gundam looks but even I admit that the Moonlight Butterfly will stop almost everything in gundam in it’s tracks.. and will certainly stop any trek ship on the spot.

  41. lancer_AR April 28, 2011 at 5:44 pm -      #41

    scenario of fight

    *star trek fleet(s) show up near earth to destroy ALL of the gundams*
    *turn A gundam flys to the front of the gundam pack and activates moonlight butterfly*
    there are no survivors

  42. CIDE July 23, 2011 at 4:07 am -      #42

    Apparently in the episode “New Ground” of TNG they explore a treknobabble type of energy known as “Soliton”. It was sought after as a design into a new type of non-warp based FTL travel; to have ships right this energy rather than have the field envelop the vessels. It worked for a bit (according to data 400 times more effective than conventional warp drive) until the ship riding the wave blew up. After that the wave continued to grow larger and get more power.

    Long story short the planet 3 light years away–which was supposed to be the ending point of the ship that blew up– would be hit by this wave. In dialogue it’s stated that had the wave not been stoped with Treknobabble configured Torpedo the planet would be blown apart.

    They could reliably fire a faster than light burst of energy at a minimum distance of 3 light years to blow up planets.

    So much for the usefulness of the Death Star.

    www.st-minutiae.com/academy/literature329/210.txt

    Episode script found here. I couldn’t find a video for it.

  43. Commander Cross September 7, 2011 at 2:13 am -      #43

    The ELS of the Gundam 00 series vs the Borg of Star Trek would be an epic fight to consider, right there.

    In the meantime, doesn’t the Gundam forces have the Phoenix Gundam at full power on their side, or is that a Non-standard mobile suit in the way of non-standard weaponry/forces?

  44. OriginalA September 7, 2011 at 4:08 am -      #44

    How about Star Trek starts throwing Red Matter at them and the Gundams all die in a black hole.

  45. Commander Cross September 7, 2011 at 4:53 pm -      #45

    Do we have a confirmed link of a video as to how far the Red Matter bombs can reach?
    Given that fire-power-wise, this has the potential to inflict devastation upon a lot of mobile suits and fleets leaving little in the way of numbers, i wish to see the links to images of Red Matter bombs, if that’s alright. *salutes*

  46. Sauroposeidon September 7, 2011 at 5:11 pm -      #46

    The Gundam side has this in terms of fire power, agility, FTL, and numbers. Maybe if we removed the Devil Gundam from this match it wouldn’t be so one sided.. the fact that Domon even managed to defeat it is really just PIS.

  47. itcheyness September 7, 2011 at 5:25 pm -      #47

    Wait, Gundam has FTL?
     
    Since when?

  48. Sauroposeidon September 7, 2011 at 5:31 pm -      #48

    Since 00. Setsuna has FTL, and the technology gets spread out. The ELS also clearly have FTL, although why is beyond me, since they don’t need it and don’t employ it for short range trips.

  49. Sauroposeidon September 7, 2011 at 5:35 pm -      #49

    Let me clarify, the human FTL is in effect a worm hole as near as I can tell, which doesn’t technically make it FTL, but it is a superior form of travel over Star Trek’s method, due to the instantaneous nature of it.

  50. Commander Cross September 10, 2011 at 9:50 am -      #50

    @Lizard God
     
    This may help to even the odds on either side when the Mobile Suit fleets have to deal with their Neo-Athenian opponents, in this thread.
    And yes, i am comparing Star Trek to Athens(Minus the Mysogony, or however you spell that term that they had, back then!) on purpose because it makes sense.

  51. Sauroposeidon September 10, 2011 at 2:19 pm -      #51

    With all the Bullshit Tech Gundam has I don’t get how they can possibly lose.
     
    Superior weapons? Check
    Superior armor? Check
    Superior shields? Check
    Superior maneuverability? Check
    Superior FTL? Check
    All Gundam really lacks is that at sub-light speeds they take forever and a day to cross vast distances compared to Trek, except that because all combat will be brutal in fighting that doesn’t even matter. A trek ship could pass literally a whole fleet if it were traveling too fast and never notice due to their sensors never picking them up.
     
    Aaaand of course, again, Devil Gundam… which is pretty much the Borg with a giant gundam face slapped on. While that may be one of their greatest offensive assets, Trek’s never getting past their greatest defensive assets Gundam X bits, of which many obey the commands from the mass produced Gundam X itself. Each one equipped with a weapon that can stop colony drops. 
     
    Although, I know there’s an alternate universe Trek where everyone is evil, I wonder if the Federation in that universe has superior tech to the normal Trek universe.

  52. Galorian September 10, 2011 at 2:59 pm -      #52

    You guys do realize photon torpedoes are around 15 gigatons each (mid range calcs), homing, FTL capable and have a range of over 5 million km, right? Each Federation ship has hundreds of them and fires them in volleys.
     
    Minimum acceleration for Kirk era enterprise is over 1,800g.
     
    The Federation alone has around 8,600 battle capable ships, the Dominion has 15,000, the Romulans and the Klingons are each close to the feds in terms of ship numbers, and the Borg outnumber the lot of them combined.
     
    Species 8472 busts plantes on a regular basis with ease.
     
    And that’s only if the Q don’t simply snap their fingers and make the whole of Gundam turn into a bunch of butterflies…
     
    How the hell are a bunch of mechs going to take on all of that?

  53. Sauroposeidon September 10, 2011 at 3:18 pm -      #53

    “You guys do realize photon torpedoes are around 15 gigatons each (mid range calcs), homing, FTL capable and have a range of over 5 million km, right? Each Federation ship has hundreds of them and fires them in volleys.”
     
    They’ll have to be in range far less than that to even notice the Gundam ships. I also doubt standard torpedos are of that yield. I’ve seen bombardments done in trek before.
     

    The Federation alone has around 8,600 battle capable ships, the Dominion has 15,000, the Romulans and the Klingons are each close to the feds in terms of ship numbers, and the Borg outnumber the lot of them combined.”
     
    I don’t remember arguing that Trek had fewer numbers, I only remember arguing that the ELS and Devil Gundam are such an over powering force to contend with that the two on the same team is virtually unbeatable for any trek fleet.
     

    Species 8472 busts plantes on a regular basis with ease.”
     
    You had better hope the ELS never assimilates one of their ships.
     
    “And that’s only if the Q don’t simply snap their fingers and make the whole of Gundam turn into a bunch of butterflies…”
     
    Assuming Q can over power the collective will of the entire gundam multi-verse powering the Psycco-Frams to turn him in to a bunny rabbit.
     
    “How the hell are a bunch of mechs going to take on all of that?”
     
    Mainly with really big mega death rays. Assuming Trek ever even picks them up on sensors. They wouldn’t have to, really, they could just feed the Devil Gundam and ELS with their best tech and send them out to wreck havoc.
    Imagine a planet you can’t detect, can’t see, has superior FTL to wormhole to where ever it wants, and impressive FTL as well. Imagine when it gets near you your electronics all go haywire, and it instantly wins if it ever touches any of your ships. Imagine it can quantumize to not get hit when by all means it should have been hit, and that it has shields that tank stuff like the Libra’s main gun with out even flickering. Now imagine it can generate any and every gun in Gundam whenever it wants to fire at any angle it wants, and it has the tech to redirect attacks which have missed. Now imagine that even if it doesn’t shield or teleport to stop an attack from hurting it, that its armor is advanced to the point of being impervious to most energy weapons, virtually untouchable by conventional weaponry, can regenerate at a whim whenever it wants, and eats things like torpedos, assimilating them ON IMPACT and spitting them back out if it wants… and being able to replicate them now whenever it wants. What’s worse, any Trek tech it likes after instantly assimilating a ship and its crew it can make use of and employ against the trek fleets. Now imagine its able to enact the will of the entire gundam multi-verse whenever it wants through the use of special devices which simply does what they want. Don’t want to get hit by that attack? Ok, it splashes in to nothingness before it hits. Don’t want that big object to crash in to a planet? Ok, it gets pushed away back in to stable orbit. Then imagine that this same tech lets mind-rape psychics, hack in to mentally controlled devices instantly, and then use them against their owners. Is that all not enough? Ok, it has the tech to unleash nano-machine swarms which instantly shut down and destroy technology, and is able to cocoon itself from these attacks.
     
    This is what happens when you combine the ELS with the Devil Gundam and let them do what they want with Gundam Tech.
     
    Oh, did I mention that planet’s mass continuously grows? Devil Gundam alone managed to go from mobile suit sized to THE SIZE OF JAPAN, well, nearly that, in a very short period of time.
     
    www.mahq.net/mecha/gundam/g/jdg-00x-colony1.jpg
     
    This is why its over powered to have the Devil Gundam in this match, and why the ELS take this virtually on their own.
     
     

  54. Galorian September 10, 2011 at 4:09 pm -      #54

    @Sauroposeidon
    “They’ll have to be in range far less than that to even notice the Gundam ships. I also doubt standard torpedos are of that yield. I’ve seen bombardments done in trek before.”
     
    Starfleet sensors can detect people hiding inside an asteroid in the middle of a large asteroid field from 10 lightyears away with enough precision to identify their race, they can detect humongous mecha at 5 million km…
     
    And no, Minshovski radiation won’t screw up their sensors since SF sensors are FTL and do not operate using EM radiation, which is what Minshovski radiation messes up.
     
    The Photon torpedo yield was calculated from several instances of asteroid vaporization from TNG and Voyager, both of which were for standard issue torpedoes. They all came up at around 15 gigatons.
     
    “You had better hope the ELS never assimilates one of their ships”
     
    Species 8472 uses biological technology and their ships are biological, not mechanical in nature.
     
    “Assuming Q can over power the collective will of the entire gundam multi-verse powering the Psycco-Frams to turn him in to a bunny rabbit.”
     
    Literal omnipotence trumps collective willpower and psionics. The Q consider changing universal constants trivial…
     
    All the Devil Gundam and ELS stuff can be overcome with the handy combination of time travel and trial and error. Eventually they will find some way to overcome that thing, and they have all of eternity to try…

  55. Sauroposeidon September 10, 2011 at 4:33 pm -      #55

    “Starfleet sensors can detect people hiding inside an asteroid in the middle of a large asteroid field from 10 lightyears away with enough precision to identify their race, they can detect humongous mecha at 5 million km…”
     
    Except for GN Particles..
     
    “And no, Minshovski radiation won’t screw up their sensors since SF sensors are FTL and do not operate using EM radiation, which is what Minshovski radiation messes up.”
     
    You’ll have to get specific if you want me to think the all encompassing effects of minovsky particles won’t stop their sensors.
     
    “The Photon torpedo yield was calculated from several instances of asteroid vaporization from TNG and Voyager, both of which were for standard issue torpedoes. They all came up at around 15 gigatons.”
     
    Yes, Voyager is definitely a great canon source to get information on because the varying capabilities of the borg definitely show a constant, continuous, set in stone universe where shit doesn’t get thrown out of whack for plot’s sake, right?
     
    “Species 8472 uses biological technology and their ships are biological, not mechanical in nature.”
     
    ELS absorb biological material too. As does Devil Gundam
     
    “Literal omnipotence trumps collective willpower and psionics. The Q consider changing universal constants trivial…”
     
    Bio-Computers and Psycco-Frames do basically whatever their users want when the shit hits the fan. Q strikes me as triggering the shit hits the fan response.
     
    “All the Devil Gundam and ELS stuff can be overcome with the handy combination of time travel and trial and error. Eventually they will find some way to overcome that thing, and they have all of eternity to try…”
     
    They won’t ever know its coming, thanks to the multitude of jamming techniques from Gundam. Sensors can’t even pick up Gundanium, and cameras can’t even detect the Deathscythe when its cloaked. There is complete visual cloaking as well. To put it simply, if the ELS have gundam tech and don’t want to be found, they won’t be. The best you can try is to look for interference. Not that it’ll matter since communications jamming is heavy in Gundam too.
     
    They can literally just insta-teleport from ship to ship more or less instantly and win.

  56. Sauroposeidon September 10, 2011 at 5:25 pm -      #56

    Did I mention the Satellite Cannons and Buster Rifles? That blow up colonies? The kind that, when only a portion of one hit Sydney, it left a crater more than 300 kilometers in size? It turned the entire area in to a gulf. It struck with something like 60 gigatons. When war becomes too much of a pain they just start lobbing colonies at each other. They also turn them in to gigantic cannons that completely vaporize entire fleets… although they do have nukes with enough fire power to completely vaporize (and I do mean literally) entire fleets. When Gundam stops playing by their no WMD’s rules they get really, really nasty with each other.
     
    So then..
    Sat Cannons
    Buster Rifles
    Atomic Bazookas
    three mobile suit scale weapons, right there, which can wipe entire Trek fleets that show up to fight. What’s worse is with newtypes they don’t even have to see you or find you on sensors. They couple precog with sensing the minds of others and then strike with their weapons. They know where you’ll be and fire. This allows them to strike Fed ships even at FTL, and strike them from beyond the cloaking barrier of minovsky/GN interference.
     
    So if you can’t detect someone, and they have weapons which actually do strike in the gigaton range.. the hell are you going to do to stop them?

  57. Mike September 10, 2011 at 7:05 pm -      #57

    “Except for GN Particles..”
    -if you are going to claim these cannot be “sensored” you’ll have to show some amazing properties of them, since ST has shown to be able to detect anything from physical, to forces/energy, to reality/time warping things.
     
     
    “Yes, Voyager is definitely a great canon source to get information on because the varying capabilities of the borg definitely show a constant, continuous, set in stone universe where shit doesn’t get thrown out of whack for plot’s sake, right?”
    -no matter how much it sucked(and it did), it doesn’t negate the fact that it is a canon show.
     
    “ELS absorb biological material too. As does Devil Gundam”
    -can’t absorb what you can’t catch, or what blows you up.
     
    “Bio-Computers and Psycco-Frames do basically whatever their users want when the shit hits the fan. Q strikes me as triggering the shit hits the fan response.”
    -unless it is stated to be omnipotent, Q will automatically every time win.
     
    “They won’t ever know its coming, thanks to the multitude of jamming techniques from Gundam.”
    -“jamming” techniques don’t necessarily work on other universes, you’ll have to show how they work to compare it to ST sensors ability to bypass them.
     
    “Sensors can’t even pick up Gundanium, and cameras can’t even detect the Deathscythe when its cloaked.”
    -that only shows their own lack of tech to sense it.
     
    “There is complete visual cloaking as well.”
    -nothing ST hasn’t dealt with before.  how is it cloaked then?  phased out of reality?  light bent around it? does it get rid of it’s energy emissions? does it get rid of it’s slight gravitational effects? does it get rid of any physical pressence so no active sensors can bounce off of it?……
     
    “To put it simply, if the ELS have gundam tech and don’t want to be found, they won’t be. The best you can try is to look for interference. Not that it’ll matter since communications jamming is heavy in Gundam too.”
    -again, this assumes ST sensors are as bad as gundam sensors.  you need more information before this can be determined.
     
    “They can literally just insta-teleport from ship to ship more or less instantly and win.”
    -just read entire thread and didn’t see anything about gundams instantly teleporting, where does this come from?  and how would they know where to teleport to unless they had ftl sensors?  doesn’t matter if you can instant teleport if you don’t know where your enemy is and they can fire a light speed torpedo at you(of which you can’t detect either).
     
    -there’s also that multikinetic neutron mine that dispurses 50 trillion borg nanoprobes over a 5 light year radius.  one would do, but i’d say since startrek has the advantage of staying out of range of gundam indefinitelly, they should build a few thousand for overkill reasons and explode them on the edges of the solar system and watch gundam sweat as they see assimilation comming and can do nothing about it(unless they can somehow take all tech and personel inside of a spherical shield). (startrek voyager ep: scorpion part 2)
     
    -oh, and this…
    “CHAKOTAY: Even if we do somehow negotiate an exchange, how long will they keep up their end of the bargain? It could take months to cross Borg territory. We’d be facing thousands of systems, millions of vessels.” voyager ep. scorpion

  58. itcheyness September 10, 2011 at 7:32 pm -      #58

    How would the Gundam forces respond to the Sun going Nova?
     
    Or, better yet, what if the Q created a perfect sphere of stars around the Gundam solar system, and then crushed it inward…

  59. Mike September 10, 2011 at 7:39 pm -      #59

    or turned them into a newt…….and unlike john cleese, they won’t get betta.

  60. Sauroposeidon September 10, 2011 at 7:40 pm -      #60

    “-if you are going to claim these cannot be “sensored” you’ll have to show some amazing properties of them, since ST has shown to be able to detect anything from physical, to forces/energy, to reality/time warping things.”
     
    Sensors never work at any decent ranges when these things are in the air. Short range communication and detection only. They distort crap making it virtually impossible to engage in long range combat with out a psychic.
     
    “-no matter how much it sucked(and it did), it doesn’t negate the fact that it is a canon show.”
     
    My point is it doesn’t seem to follow canon very closely, so take everything we see with a grain of salt.
     
    “-nothing ST hasn’t dealt with before.  how is it cloaked then?  phased out of reality?  light bent around it? does it get rid of it’s energy emissions? does it get rid of it’s slight gravitational effects? does it get rid of any physical pressence so no active sensors can bounce off of it?……”
     
    No explanation is given for many of their cloaking devices. They’re just “undetectable.”
     
    “-again, this assumes ST sensors are as bad as gundam sensors.  you need more information before this can be determined.”
     
    I don’t assume ST sensors are crap, I just know that whatever it is they’re looking for will be heavily distorted by the interference.
     
    “-just read entire thread and didn’t see anything about gundams instantly teleporting, where does this come from?  and how would they know where to teleport to unless they had ftl sensors?  doesn’t matter if you can instant teleport if you don’t know where your enemy is and they can fire a light speed torpedo at you(of which you can’t detect either).”
     
    It happens in Gundam 00. Newtypes are also precogs. It doesn’t matter, they can’t lock on until they’re close. Worse yet, I was describing the ELS at the time I believe. Missiles don’t work on them.
     
    “-there’s also that multikinetic neutron mine that dispurses 50 trillion borg nanoprobes over a 5 light year radius.  one would do, but i’d say since startrek has the advantage of staying out of range of gundam indefinitelly, they should build a few thousand for overkill reasons and explode them on the edges of the solar system and watch gundam sweat as they see assimilation comming and can do nothing about it(unless they can somehow take all tech and personel inside of a spherical shield). (startrek voyager ep: scorpion part 2)”
     
    Except they could moonlight butterfly away those things, or let the DG Cells take them over, or let the ELS assimilate them.
     
    ““CHAKOTAY: Even if we do somehow negotiate an exchange, how long will they keep up their end of the bargain? It could take months to cross Borg territory. We’d be facing thousands of systems, millions of vessels.” voyager ep. scorpion”
     
    Looks like the Devil Gundam will be getting a lot more cyborg zombie slaves. It’ll just take the Gundam a long, looong time since the Borg idea of an invasion involves sending one cube. 
     
    “-that only shows their own lack of tech to sense it.”
     
    If it can’t be picked up on sensors then it can’t be picked up.
     
    “” techniques don’t necessarily work on other universes, you’ll have to show how they work to compare it to ST sensors ability to bypass them.”
     
    Perhaps instead of saying trek sensors can spot them, you should say WHY instead of assuming they’re super advanced and detect them with some undescribable method. Trek loses until proven it can detect them when the shows repeatedly make it clear that long range sensors don’t work.
     
    “-can’t absorb what you can’t catch, or what blows you up.”
     
    Because FTL planetoids which can also jump about with worm holes and teleport won’t catch anything? Are you fucking stupid?

  61. Mike September 10, 2011 at 8:07 pm -      #61

    “Sensors never work at any decent ranges when these things are in the air. Short range communication and detection only. They distort crap making it virtually impossible to engage in long range combat with out a psychic.”

    -that didn’t answer my question in any way. you still need to say what the methods of cloaking or the methods of scanning are so we know what we can compare ST sensors to. for all i know, they use radar, and we have tech today that would be invisible to gundam.

    “My point is it doesn’t seem to follow canon very closely, so take everything we see with a grain of salt.”
    -canon is canon.

    “No explanation is given for many of their cloaking devices. They’re just “undetectable.”
    -then you have no basis to claim they are undetectable to ST sensors since you don’t even know what makes them that way.  you now need to show what kind of sensors the gundam incorporate that apparently can’t detect them.

    “I don’t assume ST sensors are crap, I just know that whatever it is they’re looking for will be heavily distorted by the interference. ”
    -you cannot “know” anything until you actually quantify what it is that makes it so or at least what is NOT able to see them.
    “It happens in Gundam 00. Newtypes are also precogs. It doesn’t matter, they can’t lock on until they’re close. Worse yet, I was describing the ELS at the time I believe. Missiles don’t work on them. ”
    -and how does it happen, you said insta-teleport, but that is immpossible unless they are omnipotent(some measurement of time is in effect) so how long does it take to happen/chargeup/hit a button/think it into action/……
    -if distance is the major factor for locking on with the teleporting then st can just stay out of range the entire time while firing pretty much anything

    “Except they could moonlight butterfly away those things, or let the DG Cells take them over, or let the ELS assimilate them. ”
    -an explanation of these is needed for them to be viable, and also the proof that they can assimilate nanoprobes that are built to assimilate bio and mech and are of higher technology in the first place.

    “Looks like the Devil Gundam will be getting a lot more cyborg zombie slaves. It’ll just take the Gundam a long, looong time since the Borg idea of an invasion involves sending one cube.”
    -one ship at a time is pis, pis is eliminated, millions of borg can attack.  although all it would take is one going warp/transwarp speeds and just ram each planet. the borg have already shown they are willing to sacrifice ships and troops so this isn’t out of their cis range.
    -i really don’t understand your thoughts about the devil gundam in the first place, i’ve seen nothing impressive on this thread so far yet you claim it can take out a cube?????

    “If it can’t be picked up on sensors then it can’t be picked up.”
    -things in one universe are not necessarily true for other universes.

    “Perhaps instead of saying trek sensors can spot them, you should say WHY instead of assuming they’re super advanced and detect them with some undescribable method. Trek loses until proven it can detect them when the shows repeatedly make it clear that long range sensors don’t work.”
    -i don’t think you understand the meaning of burden of proof. you claimed they cannot, and provided no information as to why other than “others in their own universe cannot” which is a fallacy. YOU need to bring information to the table for US to work with to even try to counter your as-is baseless claim.

    “Because FTL planetoids which can also jump about with worm holes and teleport won’t catch anything? Are you fucking stupid?”
    -nope not stupid, but in insulting me i will now show you why you are “fucking stupid”.
    -no stated faster than light sensors to know where they are, no sub.light stated to keep up with them while not in ftl modes(only have showed “jump” like ftl), no stated offensive range longer than ST.
    -without any of that, nope they won’t catch them while at the same time being blown up.

  62. Sauroposeidon September 10, 2011 at 8:53 pm -      #62

    “-that didn’t answer my question in any way. you still need to say what the methods of cloaking or the methods of scanning are so we know what we can compare ST sensors to. for all i know, they use radar, and we have tech today that would be invisible to gundam.”
     
    They’ve used radar, heat, sound, lasers, you name it, its probably been done. Gundam relies heavily on visual imaging due to the fact that signals either can’t or have a hard time getting through inter fence in UC. I have no idea what other universes use. GN Particles in the AD Timeline are powerful enough to be able to act as physical barriers when dense enough, and actually inhibit healing somehow.
     
    “-canon is canon.”
     
    Then canon is self contradictory. Not like Gundam is guiltless in that respect.
     
    “-then you have no basis to claim they are undetectable to ST sensors since you don’t even know what makes them that way.  you now need to show what kind of sensors the gundam incorporate that apparently can’t detect them.”
     
    And you have no basis that ST can detect them when you won’t even tell me how they detect things.
     
    “-and how does it happen, you said insta-teleport, but that is immpossible unless they are omnipotent(some measurement of time is in effect) so how long does it take to happen/chargeup/hit a button/think it into action/……”
     
    The 00 has teleported after getting hit in order to not get hit. It then appears where ever Setsuna wants, apparently. 
     
    “-if distance is the major factor for locking on with the teleporting then st can just stay out of range the entire time while firing pretty much anything”
     
    There is no prep time. The 00 just did it.
     
    “an explanation of these is needed for them to be viable, and also the proof that they can assimilate nanoprobes that are built to assimilate bio and mech and are of higher technology in the first place.”
     
    Moonlight Butterfly destroys technology. The Devil Gundam is a self evolving machine which simply becomes better as time passes. ELS don’t have tech. They bond with metal naturally, being metal beings.
     
    Here’s the ELS.
     
    www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ol62Cx-PW0&feature=related
     
    Fair warning, heavy spoilers, suffice to say Gundam handles aliens better than most franchises.
     
    “-one ship at a time is pis, pis is eliminated, millions of borg can attack.  although all it would take is one going warp/transwarp speeds and just ram each planet. the borg have already shown they are willing to sacrifice ships and troops so this isn’t out of their cis range.”
     
    Borg aren’t going to change up their strategy until given good reason. By then its too late. Gundam will be throwing everything they have the moment they realize what they’re up against.
     
    “-i really don’t understand your thoughts about the devil gundam in the first place, i’ve seen nothing impressive on this thread so far yet you claim it can take out a cube?????”
     
    Devil Gundam is a self evolving machine which uses nano machines. It is capable of bringing the dead back to life and making them drones, or using living beings as soldiers, corrupting them to do what they want and is willing to work with individuals who wish to further its goals as long as they don’t become infected such as Master Asia. It’s powerful enough and dangerous enough to be a threat to people who can snatch bullets out of the air. In a very brief time it became the size of the image shown. If is capable of instantly repairing crippled machines and works something on the order of like 100 times as fast as borg nanotech works. Its always getting better and is always adapting, and is always pumping out drones and mecha.
     
    www.youtube.com/watch?v=4f0fw7l6kbU&feature=related
     
    The only real weakness the Devil Gundam has is the fact that emotions have power in the G Gundam universe, and it never adapted to be able to fight them, eventually being defeated by the love shared between Rain and Domon.
     
    “-things in one universe are not necessarily true for other universes.”
     
    Then I suggest you begin telling me the specifics of star trek sensors.
     
    ” don’t think you understand the meaning of burden of proof. you claimed they cannot, and provided no information as to why other than “others in their own universe cannot” which is a fallacy. YOU need to bring information to the table for US to work with to even try to counter your as-is baseless claim.”
     
    I can’t if I don’t know how they work.
     
    “-nope not stupid, but in insulting me i will now show you why you are “fucking stupid”.”
     
    All right, fine, I was wrong to call you that.. but hey, all’s fair in love and war. You really do have to be a god damn nitwit to think something with precog, mind sensing, and wormholes can’t just pop up infront of a ST ship, especially when they LOVE to wallow about like beached whales at sublight speeds during combat. ELS work by making contact, they just have to pop infront of the ship and they won’t have time to react and they’ll run right in to it. Given how ST ships also like to fly around with out their shields up, even during combat, you very quickly have an enemy with Trek tech.
     
    It only takes 1 ship.

  63. Mike September 10, 2011 at 9:01 pm -      #63

    -you apparently don’t understand what burden of proof, pis, and current incarnation mean from your post. so i’ll just leave it at Q are omnipotent and all of gundam literally instantly.

  64. Mike September 10, 2011 at 9:02 pm -      #64

    -you apparently don’t understand what burden of proof, pis, and current incarnation mean from your post. so i’ll just leave it at Q are omnipotent and kill all of gundam literally instantly.

  65. Sauroposeidon September 10, 2011 at 9:04 pm -      #65

    “How would the Gundam forces respond to the Sun going Nova?”
     
    They would probably leave the damn system, or will it to stop. This is kinda like how spiral energy works in Gurren Lagann, only instead psychic energy amplified by their tech to do whatever the plot demands. This tech has made characters physically or mentally invulnerable, locked down machines for no discernable reason, located individuals which the sensors can’t actually locate, and pushed stuff around because someone or someones wanted said object to stop going forward. The range of psycommu tech as far as plot hax extends to whatever the writers want. Another good comparison would be the Megas XLR’s dashboard. It mysteriously has that exact right button right when Coop REALLY needs it. It’s not good enough to just wipe entire trek fleets out of existence just because they are there, but its strong enough to do something like stop Q when he finally acts.
     
     

  66. Sauroposeidon September 10, 2011 at 9:08 pm -      #66

    “i’ll just leave it at Q are omnipotent and kill all of gundam literally instantly.”
     
    Plot Hax tech wins.

  67. Mike September 10, 2011 at 9:14 pm -      #67

    apparently you also don’t understand what omnipotent means or what constitutes as pis that isn’t incorporated into matches either.  because the writers write things with seemingly no limits doesn’t mean they have can do what they have not been seen to do.  unless you can prove gundam wank can erase….oh, i don’t know, i’ll use something small for an omnipotent…..a galaxy, then i’ll start to listen to their “plot hax”.

  68. Sauroposeidon September 10, 2011 at 9:15 pm -      #68

    “what burden of proof,”
     
    I’d provide whether what I said would happen or not if you gave me proper reason to believe that their sensors are advanced enough to ignore minovsky interference, even though they fuck with the EM spectrum so much that whatever it is the sensors are looking for, the particles will make it look like just a haze is in that direction.
     
    “pis,”
     
    Because I said Borg don’t send more than one ship with out good reason? Are you serious? That’s called CIS, not PIS.
     
    “and current incarnation mean”
     
    You really want to go by current incarnation? Then tech hasn’t evolved past kirk’s time yet, and Gundam 00’s FTL allows the ELS to instantly arrive at Trek’s Earth and take it over. Q either doesn’t care about the federation yet or doesn’t exist because in the current incarnation he’s never been mentioned, so he can’t act to stop this.

  69. Sauroposeidon September 10, 2011 at 9:17 pm -      #69

    “oh, i don’t know, i’ll use something small for an omnipotent”
    IT DOES WHATEVER THE HUMAN WILL ASKS OF IT. That’s all its ever done, every time it goes in to WTF mode. It grants things like INVINCIBILITY. That strikes me as pretty damn omnipotent. Its limited by the will of the humans present and the situation at hand. How much more do you need?

  70. Mike September 10, 2011 at 9:38 pm -      #70

    “I’d provide whether what I said would happen or not if you gave me proper reason to believe that their sensors are advanced enough to ignore minovsky interference, even though they fuck with the EM spectrum so much that whatever it is the sensors are looking for, the particles will make it look like just a haze is in that direction.”
    -you admitted you don’t know what makes it unable to be detected and then don’t say what kind of sensors they use to look for it. thus i have no reason to post anything because of lack of information from your original claim……burden of proof on you to prove…..well…anything. think about it this way; if i show you ANY kind of sensor technology from ST, you cannot say whether or not it will work because you have not said whether or not it is used in the gundam series.
    -so as i said, you don’t understand burden of proof.

    “Because I said Borg don’t send more than one ship with out good reason? Are you serious? That’s called CIS, not PIS.”
    -no, lol, not at all. they are never stated to only send one ship by choice. the only reason they do that(not even all the time even, as in voyager they send 15 at the 8472 ships in just one skirmish, and lose a total of hundreds in a few days) is so starfleet and the rest of startrek don’t get insta raped. ever wonder why one cube can own 45+ at that “wolf something” battle and then get killed because picard knows a “weak spot”? it’s called pis. that’s all that is holding them back for the entire series.
    -so as i said you don’t know what pis is.

    “You really want to go by current incarnation? Then tech hasn’t evolved past kirk’s time yet, and Gundam 00′s FTL allows the ELS to instantly arrive at Trek’s Earth and take it over. Q either doesn’t care about the federation yet or doesn’t exist because in the current incarnation he’s never been mentioned, so he can’t act to stop this.”
    -current incarnation isn’t most recent show to come out, it’s farthest cronologically.
    -so as i said you don’t understand what current incarnation is. (and as you mentioned earlier the devil gundam isn’t even around anymore anyways making your whole argument void and PROVING it is not omnipotent).

    “IT DOES WHATEVER THE HUMAN WILL ASKS OF IT. That’s all its ever done, every time it goes in to WTF mode. It grants things like INVINCIBILITY. That strikes me as pretty damn omnipotent. Its limited by the will of the humans present and the situation at hand. How much more do you need?”
    -sigh…….that’s not omnipotent…..omnipotence is the ability to do anything to an infinite level, if all i ever wanted was a cake and i willed it into being would i then be omnipotent? no. the ability to will something into happening doesn’t = omnipotence, and being invincible in it’s own universe doesn’t = invinsible to others. in fact i can think of a few ways to bypass this invincibility right now from many reality and time warping cosmic powers.
    -so as i said you don’t understand what omnipotence is

  71. Sauroposeidon September 10, 2011 at 9:56 pm -      #71

    “-sigh…….that’s not omnipotent”
     
    By its nature, being able to give actual invincibility implies omnipotence. How is Q going to hurt things if they’re invincible? Do you understand that? Invincible? He wouldn’t be able to effect them. The fact that it has to be willed is indication that it is circumstantial omnipotence. It only can do whatever it wants when the circumstances are right. You can’t just say “I can still hurt you while you’re invincible” or else they wouldn’t actually be invincible would they? You can push this allll you want and keep repeating the same shit over and over and I’ll keep doing the same. I firmly believe if the Q plays his hand, the psyccomu tech will just stop him. That’s just how it works. It’s pointless to argue omnipotent crap as it is, because no one really cares, people are just interested in the actual fighting, which is why I’m not pushing that this plot hax tech doesn’t just wipe the trek fleet clean from existence the moment they show up on Gundam’s door step.
     

    -current incarnation isn’t most recent show to come out, it’s farthest cronologically.”
     
    Most recent show? I’m referring to the movie.
     
    “so as i said you don’t understand what current incarnation is. (and as you mentioned earlier the devil gundam isn’t even around anymore anyways making your whole argument void and PROVING it is not omnipotent).”
     
    I didn’t say Devil Gundam is omnipotent. I said it’s basically Borg+1. You shouldn’t complain about things I didn’t do, and if you’re going to bitch about current incarnation at least be specific about what it is you don’t like.
     
    “no, lol, not at all. they are never stated to only send one ship by choice. the only reason they do that(not even all the time even, as in voyager they send 15 at the 8472 ships in just one skirmish, and lose a total of hundreds in a few days) is so starfleet and the rest of startrek don’t get insta raped. ever wonder why one cube can own 45+ at that “wolf something” battle and then get killed because picard knows a “weak spot”? it’s called pis. that’s all that is holding them back for the entire series.”
     
    You really are an idiot. Picard knowing the exact right spot isn’t PIS. He was Borg for a while. Saying the reason why the borg don’t send a whole fleet is PIS is also stupid, its CIS, sure, but “They are the way they are because the writers wrote them to be like that” isn’t stupid, int he same way Romulans not having the tech to wipe the federation isn’t PIS. They just weren’t written that way. They probably only send one ship because they don’t think they NEED to send more than one ship unless given reason to send more. The fact that they actually send more against other races *gasp* proves my earlier statement that they won’t send more until they feel the need to.
     
    “-you admitted you don’t know what makes it unable to be detected and then don’t say what kind of sensors they use to look for it. thus i have no reason to post anything because of lack of information from your original claim……burden of proof on you to prove…..well…anything. think about it this way; if i show you ANY kind of sensor technology from ST, you cannot say whether or not it will work because you have not said whether or not it is used in the gundam series.
    -so as i said, you don’t understand burden of proof.”
     
    I understand some of the tech, and have described to you the effects of that tech, then you bitch about burden of proof with out telling me anything useful. If you aren’t going to debate then just concede and leave. There’s no shame in losing this debate, its about two universes that don’t even exist. If you want to be helpful then show some tech, but you put more effort in to deflecting the request than it would tech just to do an info dump. I understand burden of proof, and I stand by my statement until I’m given reason to believe star trek’s sensors WILL bypass the particles. If you don’t give me reason to believe it though you aren’t going to get me to budge. Its called logic. Try to employ it. The fact that you think you can win by just saying I don’t understand burden of proof when no sensor system I can conceive of outside of gravitonic sensors would be able to pick up on them.
     
    Now, do you want to provide anything useful? Or are you going to continue being the most useless debater ever?

  72. lancer_AR September 10, 2011 at 10:15 pm -      #72

    wouldn’t moonlight butterflys pretty much win this?

  73. Mike September 10, 2011 at 10:27 pm -      #73

    “By its nature, being able to give actual invincibility implies omnipotence.”
    -nice to see you prove yourself wrong in your own statement.  “implies” does not = fact.  that’s why…….wait for it…..burden of proof would fall on you.
     
    “How is Q going to hurt things if they’re invincible?”
    -prove it’s omnipotent invincibility first…..you know….burden of proof and all.
     
    “It only can do whatever it wants when the circumstances are right.”
    -that in itself shows it is not omnipotent.
     
    “It’s pointless to argue omnipotent crap as it is, because no one really cares, people are just interested in the actual fighting, which is why I’m not pushing that this plot hax tech doesn’t just wipe the trek fleet clean from existence the moment they show up on Gundam’s door step. ”
    -well seeing as how everyone thought this was a stomp because of the omnipotence of the Qs early on in this thread shows you are wrong about others not caring, and seeing as how the administrator nor the suggestor of the match has changed it to not include omnipotent beings they are still viable and the fight is automatically won because of it.
     
    “Most recent show? I’m referring to the movie.”
    -i’m not aware of it negating the rest of startrek, it was a movie that changed the time line, that happens all the time in the st series. find something about it officially making the rest non canon and then i’ll listen.

    “I didn’t say Devil Gundam is omnipotent.”
    -well you suggested the thing could assimilate more advanced technology with no proof, so i assumed it was from your skewed view of what omnipotence really is.
    -still doesn’t negate the fact that in current incarnation it is not there.

    “You really are an idiot. Picard knowing the exact right spot isn’t PIS.”
    -no, that was plot induced stupidity, just not the borgs. the situation could have been rectified if he would have just told others at the battle of wolf “some numbers” about the spot to hit with multiple ships multiple times quite a while before the battle.

    “Saying the reason why the borg don’t send a whole fleet is PIS is also stupid, its CIS, sure, but “They are the way they are because the writers wrote them to be like that” isn’t stupid, int he same way Romulans not having the tech to wipe the federation isn’t PIS. They just weren’t written that way.”
    -there is no cis stated in the show that says they always send a single ship, and the fact that they send more than one in other circumstances and even that they don’t send more against earth when they clearly want it assimilated shows it’s cis. for gods sake they have millions and they want a planet, with no pis they’d have it.

    “They probably only send one ship because they don’t think they NEED to send more than one ship unless given reason to send more.”
    -well it was destroyed……what’s the reason they don’t send more again then with your own logic?…..

    “The fact that they actually send more against other races *gasp* proves my earlier statement that they won’t send more until they feel the need to.”
    -and also proves my point with your own logic that it is pis. thanks.

    “I understand some of the tech, and have described to you the effects of that tech, then you bitch about burden of proof with out telling me anything useful.”
    -effects don’t equal what tech does it. we need the actual thing that makes the effect. like i outlined earlier with multiple ways of making them invisible. light reflecting, phasing out, light absorbing…..many ways with different ways of detecting it. YOU need to bring the info of what it is or what can’t detect it for the opposition to be able to even know what to show you.

    “If you aren’t going to debate then just concede and leave.”
    -debating requires information to counter, of which you haven’t provided enough of. that and you really need to understand some of the terms vital to debating along with definitions of important abilities to be able to come up with a viable point.

    “If you want to be helpful then show some tech, but you put more effort in to deflecting the request than it would tech just to do an info dump.”
    -i actually don’t need to do anything until you put out useable information. and it actually makes it hard for me to do anything other than put out what might be useless information until i know what i am actually needing to put out there.

    “I understand burden of proof, and I stand by my statement until I’m given reason to believe star trek’s sensors WILL bypass the particles.”
    -really? so your no-burden of proof consists of “gundam universe can’t detect them, so show ST can even though i don’t know why they can’t detect them”……yeah, real nice understanding of burden of proof there buddy.

    “Now, do you want to provide anything useful? Or are you going to continue being the most useless debater ever? ”
    -proving you don’t have a point negates the need to actually have any information out there unless i want to take the initiative….oh, wait, i did that with information from the scorpion episodes along with a quote from that episode……

    -you seem to be getting pissed at me for you not being able to show what you claim. that’s the problem here.

  74. lancer_AR September 10, 2011 at 11:16 pm -      #74

    the devil gundam…isn’t that the really stupid looking one from G gundam

    if I recall correctly the only way to defeat it was through some lovey dovey laser cannon that stopped it from regenerating meaning unless anything from star trek has any way of producing a similar attack then the devil gundam will keep on doing what ever it did

    also minovsky particles (the thing most UC space crafts and mobile suits crap out of every port) have been shown to jam most if not all electronics to the best I can remember this includes scanners, radars. and comms. so since we’ve never seen a limit on what they can’t jam (save for range) and the rules on BankGambling state that some things have to carry over to make each side work at optimal ability then some things have to be carried over (kharn’s resistance to warp magic = universal magic resistance)

    unless this Q has a no limits scanner then it’s safe to say minovsky particles carry their ECM over 

  75. Sauroposeidon September 11, 2011 at 12:17 am -      #75

    “-nice to see you prove yourself wrong in your own statement.  “implies” does not = fact.  that’s why…….wait for it…..burden of proof would fall on you.”
     
    I’m sorry that the plot device is only used a couple of times, giving it limited opportunities to do whatever it needs to do, but the fact remains that it did do what should have been impossible things. It doesn’t need to be openly called omnipotent if it clearly can do whatever is needed.
     
    “-prove it’s omnipotent invincibility first…..you know….burden of proof and all.”
     
    Nothing could hurt the individual at that time. That seems to fit the bill. Can you prove the Q is omnipotent? Has anyone ever tried throwing a splash of water behind their shoulder while whistling the theme song to andy griffith and hopping in a circle on one foot? Maybe thats actually the one thing that hurts the Q. Until you prove that this special ritual can’t obliterate the Q then that’s all the Gundam characters have to do to win. 
     
    “-well seeing as how everyone thought this was a stomp because of the omnipotence of the Qs early on in this thread shows you are wrong about others not caring, and seeing as how the administrator nor the suggestor of the match has changed it to not include omnipotent beings they are still viable and the fight is automatically won because of it.”
     
    There’s a difference between acknowledging something and caring about it. Your automatic win is only automatic in your head. Anyone who’s watched gundam knows differently. Psyco-frame/bio-computer hax still stops Q because the humans will it.
     
    “-i’m not aware of it negating the rest of startrek, it was a movie that changed the time line, that happens all the time in the st series. find something about it officially making the rest non canon and then i’ll listen.”
     
    Obviously everything changes on some level. No mention of Q yet. So we can’t just assume the creators want him to exist in this time line.
     
    “well you suggested the thing could assimilate more advanced technology with no proof, so i assumed it was from your skewed view of what omnipotence really is.”
     
    I assumed it could assimilate technology that is equal or lower to it. It’s clearly superior to the Borg, so it can assimilate them and use anything from them it likes. I showed you a clip showing how its nanotech is much more advanced than Borg nanotech. It GREW tentacles from the wound, instantly. and reattached the lost limb. Then made it functional even though a beam saber just burned through the joint, which should render the original connection points useless and slagged as it is so it had to completely regenerate those parts.
     
    “-there is no cis stated in the show that says they always send a single ship,”
     
    If they keep doing it, then clearly it’s their standard MO until given reason to change.
     
    “. for gods sake they have millions and they want a planet, with no pis they’d have it.”
     
    Except they don’t really care about sacrifices and one ship almost took the planet on its own. Its just ONE planet, and only ONE cube nearly took it if it weren’t for Picard.
     
    “-effects don’t equal what tech does it. we need the actual thing that makes the effect. like i outlined earlier with multiple ways of making them invisible. light reflecting, phasing out, light absorbing…..many ways with different ways of detecting it. YOU need to bring the info of what it is or what can’t detect it for the opposition to be able to even know what to show you.”
     
    You keep saying it can detect it, and you cite those ways as being detectable but never say why. Simply from observing the Gundams we can tell and form of EM detection. So how exactly are the trek ships picking them up if they can’t detect them along those means? They have to be picking up something like heat, radiation, something.. but we know minovsky particles and GN particles mask that kind of stuff.
     
    “-debating requires information to counter, of which you haven’t provided enough of. that and you really need to understand some of the terms vital to debating along with definitions of important abilities to be able to come up with a viable point.”
     
    I’ve provided plenty, you just don’t provide counter arguments with any substance for me to contest. I can’t say “Oh yeah, that won’t work and here’s why” or “Oh, sure that might work” if you don’t tell me more. I have to assume until given some wonky detection method that whatever the Trek ships are scanning for, that its masked by Minovsky particles.
     
    “-i actually don’t need to do anything until you put out useable information. and it actually makes it hard for me to do anything other than put out what might be useless information until i know what i am actually needing to put out there.”
     
    All I’ve fucking asked you to do is tell me what trek ships look for when they scan. How do they detect things? That doesn’t sound hard at all for someone who’s a fan of trek.
     
    “-really? so your no-burden of proof consists of “gundam universe can’t detect them, so show ST can even though i don’t know why they can’t detect them”……yeah, real nice understanding of burden of proof there buddy.”
     
    I don’t know of how they accomplish some of their cloaking mechanisms. It is simply never spoken about to my knowledge in some cases. Obviously Trek’s detection methods must be fairly mundane if you don’t want to reveal how they do it, otherwise you’d tell me why optical cloaking and sensor jamming doesn’t work. The best I’ve seen is “They’re FTL so they don’t work on the EM spectrum” but they’re still looking to pick up SOMETHING and that something is almost surely masked. Trek ships will OH TEH NOES!!!!! Have to actually perform like in the fucking shows they come from, and move about as sub light speeds and probably fight with out shields JUST LIKE IN THE SHOWS. Oh my god. What will they ever do now that they can’t whiz about at FTL speeds just raping everything that isn’t FTL like their fanboys like to wank on about even though they virtually never pull stuff like that. For fuck’s sake they have battle maneuvers for sub light combat, like the Picard Maneuver. These guys are not the uber long range, super speedsters people like to make them out to be, at least they aren’t 99% of the time.
     
    “-you seem to be getting pissed at me for you not being able to show what you claim. that’s the problem here.”
     
    I’m getting annoyed that all you do is keep moving the goal posts and providing nothing to actually counter any claims. Even if they’re vague you could at least TRY. I gave you the information I have, so either we can dick about with our thumbs up our asses going “Oh well then there’s no way to tell” or we can just move on.

  76. Mike September 11, 2011 at 2:37 am -      #76

    “I’m sorry that the plot device is only used a couple of times, giving it limited opportunities to do whatever it needs to do, but the fact remains that it did do what should have been impossible things. It doesn’t need to be openly called omnipotent if it clearly can do whatever is needed. ”
    -actually the only way to be shown to be omnipotent is to have it stated so.  furthering my point of you not knowing what omnipotent is.  you just see some ridiculous power and think because it cannot be overcome in the same universe that the source of that power that did it must be omnipotent.  it’s like putting a tank in ancient egypt and saying it’s omnipotent because it can’t be hurt.
     
    “Nothing could hurt the individual at that time. That seems to fit the bill.”
    -well it doesn’t.
     
    “Can you prove the Q is omnipotent?”
    -why yes i can….
    startrek next generation: dejavu
    “Q: I’m not good in groups. It’s difficult to work in a group when you’re omnipotent.”
     
    “There’s a difference between acknowledging something and caring about it.”
    -no, the fact they acknowledge it was a factor shows they cared to take it into consideration, and was my point.
     
    “Your automatic win is only automatic in your head. Anyone who’s watched gundam knows differently. Psyco-frame/bio-computer hax still stops Q because the humans will it.”
    -whatever power this thing has, since it is short of omnipotence as is all that has been shown yet, will not prove to be enough to save them.  in fact omnipotence means instant death.  and the fact that they have to will anything means it takes at least as long as a though, which is too slow for omnipotence even if the effects do prove to be omnipotent because of the omnipotent speed blitz.
     
    “Obviously everything changes on some level.”
    -until i see an official quote about it, i’m not going to assume that every single canon piece in the star trek universe was thrown away because of a single movie.
     
    “No mention of Q yet. So we can’t just assume the creators want him to exist in this time line. ”
    -i got a reason….
    startrek voyager: the Q and the Grey
    “Q: The Q didn’t come into existence, the Q have always existed!”
     
    “It’s clearly superior to the Borg, so it can assimilate them and use anything from them it likes.”
    -so how is it superior to the borg?  doing different things or even faster things doesn’t mean superior.  borg nanoprobes are specifically designed to NOT be resisted against and are unstopable except to some strange kind of radiation that slows it and plot devices(lucutis).  that and the borg can shut them down and even disintigrate  units that aren’t being used or left behind in battles. so i don’t see them even getting the tech even IF they somehow can overpower it.
     

    “If they keep doing it, then clearly it’s their standard MO until given reason to change. ”
    -“clears throat”  unless specifically stated to be a character based decision, any action taken by said thing is not subject to it’s own reasoning…..meaning, unless the borg are outright said to have a cis doing this, MO = PLOT.  same type of thing is going on in a goku match right now, just because he looks at the people and has a stand off in most fights, there is nothing other than plot reasons that have him do this, mostly for dramatization.
     
    “Except they don’t really care about sacrifices and one ship almost took the planet on its own. Its just ONE planet, and only ONE cube nearly took it if it weren’t for Picard.”
    -you missed my point.  with YOUR own logic on cis, they would have then sent at least two next time, but they didn’t.  meaning it was pis
     
    “You keep saying it can detect it, and you cite those ways as being detectable but never say why.”
    -no, those were just examples of how an effect can be caused by different means thus we need to know the means behind the gundams undetectableness.
     
    “Simply from observing the Gundams we can tell and form of EM detection. So how exactly are the trek ships picking them up if they can’t detect them along those means? They have to be picking up something like heat, radiation, something.. but we know minovsky particles and GN particles mask that kind of stuff. ”
    -is this the answer i was looking for finally? is this what it blocks? heat, radiation, something..
    -can’t tell what you meant exactly from “we can tell and form of EM detection”.  i’m going to take it as “we can tell it’s a form of EM detection”.  and as of right now, all you have stated is it blocks heat and radiation.  now is this the invisible one also?  or just the ambient effects of that substance they radiate around them?
     
    “I have to assume until given some wonky detection method that whatever the Trek ships are scanning for, that its masked by Minovsky particles.”
    -starting off with the assumption that something works without even knowing(or at least stating) how it works while not knowing what the other side is cabale of is not a good way to go into a debate, it shows obvious bias.
     
    “All I’ve fucking asked you to do is tell me what trek ships look for when they scan. How do they detect things? That doesn’t sound hard at all for someone who’s a fan of trek. ”
    -i have a page ready to quote off of with 13 kinds of sensor scans with 77 types of sensor devices(all with episodes they are used/talked about in but not all are starship sensors so a little less); i just need to know what to look for, i’m not going to put up a mega post.
    -this may sound like a surprise to you, but i’m not that big of a startrek fan, i like stargate far far more. just found all information from the quotes and informaiton i put up including the sensor information just by simple looking for it today(although from memory i knew most existed). hell, i’ve only seen a handful of TOS and maybe half of TNG, DS9 was the best, and voyager sucked but i’ve seen a bunch here and there from crappy reruns.
     
    “Obviously Trek’s detection methods must be fairly mundane if you don’t want to reveal how they do it, otherwise you’d tell me why optical cloaking and sensor jamming doesn’t work.”
    -not by far, star trek’s best feature in these types of BankGambling fights is it’s various technobable to do almost anthing.
     
    “Have to actually perform like in the fucking shows they come from, and move about as sub light speeds and probably fight with out shields JUST LIKE IN THE SHOWS.”
    -knowing there is a battle as in what they actually did do in the show, they will have shields up.  and one of the most famous manuevors is one that takes advantage of sublight opponents by using warp in the “dogfight” of a battle, only reason it isn’t used more often is pis and other ships in ST actually have ftl to fight with so it’s pointless.  someone here knows the name of it i’m sure.  it’s one of the captains or number 2s.
     
    “Oh my god. What will they ever do now that they can’t whiz about at FTL speeds just raping everything that isn’t FTL like their fanboys like to wank on about even though they virtually never pull stuff like that.”
    -yeah, ^above is why statements like this seem uneducated.  but if you didn’t know then no fault on you.
     
    “For fuck’s sake they have battle maneuvers for sub light combat, like the Picard Maneuver. These guys are not the uber long range, super speedsters people like to make them out to be, at least they aren’t 99% of the time. ”
    -ah, that’s what it’s called, well now i guess you know why it isn’t used very often…..because it’s only good against sublight enemies, which gundam is(other than the jump type ftl which would not negate the manuevor, just maybe get them out of the way if they were lucky with the timing(since they can’t know when the attack is coming).
     
    “I’m getting annoyed that all you do is keep moving the goal posts and providing nothing to actually counter any claims.”
    -you had claims, but no info about them. it’s as blunt as saying “gundam wins”. with no information what do you want me to counter? your opinion? at least now you gave me “heat and radiation” to work with.

    “Even if they’re vague you could at least TRY. I gave you the information I have, so either we can dick about with our thumbs up our asses going “Oh well then there’s no way to tell” or we can just move on.”
    -“TRY”? i’m not going to post a foot long brick of a post just so you can see something when you aren’t even sure what WOULD counter what you claimed.
    -if there IS a lack of information, then there is nothing else to do but move on or speculate. and speculation would not determine anything on BankGambling other than if you derive enjoyment from talking about the series in question.

    I’ll get to the sensors tomorrow, unless you want to look at them on your own. it’s on memory alpha which wanks ST some, but this is not wankable things and it cites the episodes they are from.

    en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Sensor
    -types of scans at bottom

    en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Category:Sensor_technology
    -different kinds of sensors

    most if not all seem to be based off of subspace and would bypass anything gundam did in the first place anyways though.

  77. Galorian September 11, 2011 at 2:43 am -      #77

    @Sauroposeidon

    Minshovski radiation is very clearly defined as a by-
    product of Minshovski fusion reactors that distorts EM radiation. That’s it.

    Starfleet uses many means of detection, most of which not electromagnetic in nature. For example there’s their gravometric sensors, which detect gravity, are definitely NOT affected by Minshovski radiation and would easily detect something as big as the Devil Gundam. Another example are their regular sensors, which I believe operate through subspace and are therefore also completely unaffected by Minshovski radiation.

    “70 gigatons”

    while definitely impressive this is only around twice as powerful as a quantum torpedo, of which most ST ships can tank quite a few undamaged.

    Once you get to these power levels vaporising mundane matter is fairly trivial. Unless these fleets you were speaking of had energy shielding or were made up of crazy strong heat resistant sci-fi alloys (which I was led to believe only select mobile suits were made of) then vaporising them doesn’t neseccerily mean firepower above that which starfleet throws around (hell, they consider firing a photon torpedo at a target less then 40,000km from you with your shields down to be suicidal, and their ships are made of super strong heat resistant sci-fi alloys with force fields on top).

    For example, if you assume a Terran battlecruiser is 2km long and made of iron it would take 10-20 megatons of energy to completely vaporize it.

    How large were the ships vaporized in your example and how far away were they from the bomb when it went off?

    “Omnipotence”

    I’m afraid you’ve gone deep into the no-limits fallacy with that one. You’re basing your theory of omnipotence on a few cases of manifesting the user’s will on a very small scale and against very finite forces.

    Being made invulnerable to a given attack doesn’t make you universally invincible, it just means you were made at least invulnerable enough to be unaffected by that particular attack.

    Being made invulnerable to weapons in the gundamverse means that thing is proven powerful enough to confer invulnerability to that level of firepower, nothing more.

    On the other hand the Q are proven to be able to do things like turn a warp core into a disco, turn a lesser omnipotent into an amoeba and revert him back to his original form, take away a being’s omnipotence, hurl a starship 70,000 lightyears in an instant, change universal constants, create alternate timelines, teleport a ship to the big bang, shrink a starship to the size of a proton and have sex by touching fingers together.

    One of the above is less impressive then the rest.

    Unless you can prove something in Gundam can match those feats this match ends with a snap of Q’s fingers.

    “timeline”

    An alternate timeline which has been expressly stated to canonically exist in parallel to the original one. The original (and chronologically more advanced) timeline is the one used here.

  78. Galorian September 11, 2011 at 5:13 am -      #78

    Also, forgot to add that all startrek communications is done through subspace (or other non-EM means) making it immune to Minshovski radiation as well.

    In fact radio is so obsolete that SF comms systems don’t automatically recognize it as a form of communication. Not that they have any problem picking it up if they want to.

  79. lancer_AR September 11, 2011 at 1:09 pm -      #79

    thank you galorian now…could you educate a fool such as myself in what subspace is?

  80. Galorian September 11, 2011 at 1:37 pm -      #80

    @lancer_AR
     
    Here’s a fairly detailed and cited explanation:
     
    “The best explanation I can come up with is that subspace is the
    “substrate” within which our universe exists. A subspace field is
    either a forced or natural intrusion of this domain into our own
    space, altering the behavior of things within our space-time. The
    “subspace barrier” is the albeit flimsy dividing line between the two
    continuums.

    Many things support this: in “Schisms” [TNG] creatures exist within a
    tertiary subspace manifold, a manifold being a term used to describe
    the form our own universe takes when viewed from a higher
    (theoretical) dimension. This is also called a deeper level of
    subspace; another universe which is connected to ours by subspace. In
    “Remember Me” [TNG] an entirely new universe was “spawned off” by a
    static warp bubble, and it was only accessible through subspace. The
    proto-universe in “Playing God” [DS9] was an intense subspace
    manifestation as well.

    Protrusions of subspace, such as in “Force of Nature” [TNG], “Vortex”
    [DS9], or the shockwave in ST6 do nasty things to our space-time. But
    subspace is also everywhere: sensors can detect subspace distortions
    caused by normal objects (“Descent” [TNG] ), communications work
    through subspace, and you can create subspace fields.

    Whenever our space-time is distorted or torn, or large amounts of
    energy released (explosions) there are subspace effects; wormholes and
    Transwarp Conduits are good examples where subspace plays a part in
    the effect, and the presumably material-based explosion of Praxis in
    Star Trek VI generated the subspace shockwave. Also, in “Caretaker”
    [VOY] Captain Janeway mentioned that the warp core of a starship would
    leave behind a resonance trace signature even if the ship was
    destroyed – this indicates that the constant matter/antimatter
    reaction in a starship’s warp core generates subspace fields as well.

    Subspace fields (the kind that move starships around) are intentional
    manifestations of subspace in our space-time, caused by the controlled
    release of energy in a warp field coil. These fields have many
    effects, often depending on the intensity.
    * They leave subspace distortions behind (“Interface” [TNG], “The
    Maquis” [DS9]) even when they’re gone.
    * An object placed in a subspace field has a reduced inertial mass
    relative to things outside the field. ( “Deja Q” [TNG])
    * A symmetrical field (a.k.a. “Warp bubble”) with enough power can
    create an entirely new universe, but it may not be stable. (
    “Remember Me” [TNG])
    * An asymmetrical field can propel the generating ship at the speed
    of light; nested fields propel the ship at the speed of light
    relative to the field beyond. (TM)
    * A subspace Soliton wave can carry a ship at the propagation speed
    of the wave. ( “New Ground” [TNG])
    * A field can be embedded in an object (“Phantasms” [TNG])
    * Overlapping static warp shells can create an artificial subspace
    barrier in a localized region of space-time (“All Good Things…”
    [TNG])

    You can think of subspace as being the “medium” in which our
    space-time exists. The nearest parts (nearest being measured by the
    energy it takes to access them) are tightly coupled to our own
    universe, and can be thought of as being mapped to our space-time.
    This is what sensors generally read, and what the subspace fields of
    warp drive are interacting with. Slightly deeper parts can connect
    points in our universe to others. Wormholes and Transwarp Conduits are
    this sort of thing. Deeper still are the “untamed wilds” seen in
    “Force of Nature” [TNG]. And even further down are entirely separate
    universes, all held together by subspace.

    Subspace is not in an alternate reality, or “place”, or space-time
    where things go – or at least, they don’t go in the world of Star
    Trek. It is not entered by a starship at warp. A ship creates a
    subspace field which acts like another universe very tightly coupled
    to our own. If I was inside such a field and you were outside, we
    could conduct a conversation, shake hands, etc. But when the field is
    powerful enough (1000 millicochranes or more) and asymmetric, it is
    propulsive. Nested, decoupling fields magnify the effect considerably.
    But the ship still interacts with everything in our universe, and vice
    versa, as the level of subspace in which the field exists is so
    tightly coupled to our own that it appears no “fancier” than, say, a
    magnetic field, if you’re looking closely at it.

    The weakest subspace fields do appear very similar to traditional
    fields, like magnetic fields. They have associated particles (see
    below), can be bound to objects (“Phantasms” [TNG]), can be used for
    transmissions (subspace radio), and generally unremarkable on their
    own other than as residue from more powerful effects.

    To keep Jason Hinson and Special Relativity happy, subspace doesn’t
    need to follow the rules of relativity. Subspace might have a unique
    reference frame, and everything enclosed in a subspace field has the
    reference frame of subspace.”

  81. Sauroposeidon September 11, 2011 at 9:08 pm -      #81

    I just want to mention memory-alpha is a bad site. It had a pop up which locked my web browser unless I clicked on it. I had to force quit the browser to get out of it. I lost the entire post I’d worked on because I clicked over a tab to stop an ad that was playing on that wiki.

  82. Sauroposeidon September 12, 2011 at 2:40 pm -      #82

    “-actually the only way to be shown to be omnipotent is to have it stated so.  furthering my point of you not knowing what omnipotent is.  you just see some ridiculous power and think because it cannot be overcome in the same universe that the source of that power that did it must be omnipotent.  it’s like putting a tank in ancient egypt and saying it’s omnipotent because it can’t be hurt.”
     
    “Q: I’m not good in groups. It’s difficult to work in a group when you’re omnipotent.””
    Actually, you have to prove you’re omnipotent, saying you are doesn’t count. Demonstrating you are does. Invincibility, holding stuff with no visible means of holding the object or moving it around, guiding individuals to something which their sensors can’t locate. These are demonstrations of exceptional power, and while apparently its not irrefutable proof that it is capable of stopping Q, Q has never actually obliterated fleets to my knowledge. He moves stuff around, saves lives, shows possible futures. If you can provide an instance where he actually killed someone, then his powers may be limited in that he can’t actually use them to kill anyone. If you can prove that he can do something to overwhelm these technologies then go for it. I’m thinking at best, when the Trek ships are getting munched on by the ELS, he’ll just fold space everyone away from his precious federation… he probably won’t save the other factions, though.
     
    The pyscommu tech is sufficiently advanced that it manifests what people want in to reality when there is a great enough will for it. It’s sensitive enough to pick up on the mental consciousness of newtypes that linger even after their death. I’m not willing to say that it was only capable of stopping standard attacks, I am in fact saying it made them invulnerable to damage. Why? Because it can. That’s what it does. It doesn’t have to be overtly stated in a show where explanatory dialogue is virtually nonexistent. The Bio-Computer is NEVER explained. It just does. The Psycco-Frames are only said to amplify newtype powers, and yet they ended up doing all kinds of stuff with people who were not newtypes. This technology works beyond the understanding of the people who created it.
     
    ”  in fact omnipotence means instant death. ”
     
    Q can not defeat other Q. He is not omnipotent. If he were omnipotent he’d be omniscient, which he is also clearly not. Q also does not act instantly. He’s never out right stopped any federation ship from being obliterated, to my knowledge. He’s primarily fond of Picard, and I don’t believe he’ll act unless Picard is in danger. If the best you can offer is a handful of characters who have the ability to infinitely retreat will survive this war then I’m afraid that’s not enough to warrant anything other than a Trek loss.
     
    “-until i see an official quote about it, i’m not going to assume that every single canon piece in the star trek universe was thrown away because of a single movie.”
     
    The worst thing about this is you are assuming what the people in control of the current vision of trek want. This is a new universe following a new timeline, if you want to go by most current incarnation, Q hasn’t shown up to perform the actions that he has yet. We have no reason to believe he’s present. Trek technology, and important races which have no been introduced prior to the events of the movie or during the movie does not exist yet. TOS with some advancement is all you have to work on, and even then not everything from that should just be accepted as usable. You want to keep going with current incarnation or no? Because if you do, that removes things like bio-computers and the Devil Gundam off the table as well.. but if you don’t, that hax tech is still there to ruin trek with ease.
     
    “-i got a reason….
    startrek voyager: the Q and the Grey
    “Q: The Q didn’t come into existence, the Q have always existed!””
     
    Q reproduce, and were not always at the level that they are currently at. They haven’t always existed. Evolution brought them to where they are now. They are not snarky christian gods.
     
    “-so how is it superior to the borg?  doing different things or even faster things doesn’t mean superior.  borg nanoprobes are specifically designed to NOT be resisted against and are unstopable except to some strange kind of radiation that slows it and plot devices(lucutis).  that and the borg can shut them down and even disintigrate  units that aren’t being used or left behind in battles. so i don’t see them even getting the tech even IF they somehow can overpower it.”
     
    Did you not watch the clip? Did you not see how fast acting the DG Cells are? They GREW TENTACLES to reattach a severed limb from a Gundam, one which was sliced through with a beam saber. Beam sabers use plasma, the joints had to of been mangled beyond use, which means the DG cells regenerated the machine’s joint as well, or just took control of the arm directly once it was back in place. The can instantly generate ammunition for unique, never before seen or after weapons on other infected gundams. They can make the dead in to drones, which the Borg can’t do. They act with such incredible speed and form equipment so swiftly that the Borg have nothing even close to what their tech can do, and they just keep getting better as time goes on. All the Devil Gundam wants is to kill, and that’s what it adapts itself to do. The Borg can’t handle a monster that is capable of that. Virtually nothing can. Most sci-fi settings that exist would find themselves dead after a few years if the Devil Gundam were dropped in to them. The DG Cells would just infect the borg as they do everyone else. The only thing that seems capable of stopping it the Borg can’t do.
     
    “-”clears throat”  unless specifically stated to be a character based decision, any action taken by said thing is not subject to it’s own reasoning…..meaning, unless the borg are outright said to have a cis doing this, MO = PLOT.  same type of thing is going on in a goku match right now, just because he looks at the people and has a stand off in most fights, there is nothing other than plot reasons that have him do this, mostly for dramatization.”
     
    I don’t think you understand the difference between CIS and PIS, or the requirements for CIS.
     
    “-you missed my point.  with YOUR own logic on cis, they would have then sent at least two next time, but they didn’t.  meaning it was pis”
     
    Yup, those feds got lucky so we’re gonna send a ton of cubes even though one alone crippled their fleet and still got through even when they hit the weak spot to effect their past.
     
    “-is this the answer i was looking for finally? is this what it blocks? heat, radiation, something..
    -can’t tell what you meant exactly from “we can tell and form of EM detection”.  i’m going to take it as “we can tell it’s a form of EM detection”.  and as of right now, all you have stated is it blocks heat and radiation.  now is this the invisible one also?  or just the ambient effects of that substance they radiate around them?”
     
    The substance.
     
    “-starting off with the assumption that something works without even knowing(or at least stating) how it works while not knowing what the other side is cabale of is not a good way to go into a debate, it shows obvious bias.”
     
    Because every method I know of for detection wouldn’t work outside of gravity detection isn’t bias. It doesn’t matter how advanced their sensors are, they still have to be looking for something specific to pick up on. All they’d find is a big fuzzy spot in the general area of where something should be.
     
    “-this may sound like a surprise to you, but i’m not that big of a startrek fan, i like stargate far far more. just found all information from the quotes and informaiton i put up including the sensor information just by simple looking for it today(although from memory i knew most existed). hell, i’ve only seen a handful of TOS and maybe half of TNG, DS9 was the best, and voyager sucked but i’ve seen a bunch here and there from crappy reruns.”
     
    You have my condolences concerning that awful SGU and the death of the franchise.
     
    “-knowing there is a battle as in what they actually did do in the show, they will have shields up.  and one of the most famous manuevors is one that takes advantage of sublight opponents by using warp in the “dogfight” of a battle, only reason it isn’t used more often is pis and other ships in ST actually have ftl to fight with so it’s pointless.  someone here knows the name of it i’m sure.  it’s one of the captains or number 2s.”
     
    Trek ships don’t regularly fight at FTL because you can’t dogfight at FTL. You can only chase. Can they even hit sublight targets that aren’t big and obvious and slow?
     
    “-yeah, ^above is why statements like this seem uneducated.  but if you didn’t know then no fault on you.”
     
    No, that’s actually the most common argument I see. Trek ships just strafe shit at FTL and win, even though 99% of the fights I’ve seen are sub light battles.
     
    “ah, that’s what it’s called, well now i guess you know why it isn’t used very often…..because it’s only good against sublight enemies, which gundam is(other than the jump type ftl which would not negate the manuevor, just maybe get them out of the way if they were lucky with the timing(since they can’t know when the attack is coming).”
     
    Yeah, they’ll never know its coming because their wars aren’t fought with armies of clones of precog psychics, right? That’s why Amuro didn’t know the colony laser was about to destroy the federation fleet several seconds before it nearly wiped them out? Gundam fightings is almost nothing but precognition, mind reading, and attempts to jam those abilities.
     
    “you had claims, but no info about them. it’s as blunt as saying “gundam wins”. with no information what do you want me to counter? your opinion? at least now you gave me “heat and radiation” to work with.”
     
    Again, gundam has little to no explanatory dialogue. Much is made over stealth techniques being effective but rarely why.
     
    “I’ll get to the sensors tomorrow, unless you want to look at them on your own. it’s on memory alpha which wanks ST some, but this is not wankable things and it cites the episodes they are from.”
     
    That blasted site pop-up killed my last post so I’m unwilling to look over it much currently.
     
    I’ll respond to Galorian at an undetermined time in the future. Things to do ‘n whatnot. Don’t worry Galorian, I’m not ignoring you.

  83. Galorian September 12, 2011 at 4:38 pm -      #83

    @Sauroposeidon
    ” If you can provide an instance where he actually killed someone, then his powers may be limited in that he can’t actually use them to kill anyone.”
     
    I one episode of TNG the crew encounters a Q who opted to live as a mortal. That Q erased an entire warlike species in a feat of rage after they were responsible for the death of his loved ones.
     
    He later regretted the act as a monumental loss of life…
     
    “The pyscommu tech is sufficiently advanced that it manifests what people want in to reality when there is a great enough will for it. It’s sensitive enough to pick up on the mental consciousness of newtypes that linger even after their death. I’m not willing to say that it was only capable of stopping standard attacks, I am in fact saying it made them invulnerable to damage. Why? Because it can. That’s what it does. It doesn’t have to be overtly stated in a show where explanatory dialogue is virtually nonexistent. The Bio-Computer is NEVER explained. It just does. The Psycco-Frames are only said to amplify newtype powers, and yet they ended up doing all kinds of stuff with people who were not newtypes. This technology works beyond the understanding of the people who created it.”
     
    That isn’t nearly enough to place it in the same general region as the Q, let alone the same playing field.
     
    ” If he were omnipotent he’d be omniscient, which he is also clearly not.”
     
    Practically omnipotent by our level of understanding. There’s nothing we can conceive a Q can’t do unless another Q interferes.
     
    “He’s never out right stopped any federation ship from being obliterated, to my knowledge.”
     
    Being a douche doesn’t mean he’s not powerful, just unmotivated.
     
    “He’s primarily fond of Picard, and I don’t believe he’ll act unless Picard is in danger.”
     
    You’re completely ignoring the BankGambling rules for universe matches. All things in each universe drop all PIS and any CIS preventing them from fighting on the same side against the opposing universe and will fight as if they consider the opposition to be a deadly threat. CIS against killing is also removed.
     
    “The worst thing about this is you are assuming what the people in control of the current vision of trek want. This is a new universe following a new timeline, if you want to go by most current incarnation, Q hasn’t shown up to perform the actions that he has yet. We have no reason to believe he’s present. Trek technology, and important races which have no been introduced prior to the events of the movie or during the movie does not exist yet. TOS with some advancement is all you have to work on, and even then not everything from that should just be accepted as usable. You want to keep going with current incarnation or no? Because if you do, that removes things like bio-computers and the Devil Gundam off the table as well.. but if you don’t, that hax tech is still there to ruin trek with ease.”
     
    Regardless of whether or not you use latest incarnation or height of power ST stomps Gundam.
     
    “Q reproduce, and were not always at the level that they are currently at. They haven’t always existed. Evolution brought them to where they are now. They are not snarky christian gods.”
     
    The first and so far last time the Q ever reproduced was during a particularly embarrassing episode of Voyager, and their complete freedom of movement through the 4th dimension (AKA time) means they exist in all points in time that we can conceive. They may have evolved to that level at some point, but the moment the got to it they became omnipresent throughout time (to whatever degree plot demands at least. Deus Ex Machina indeed…).
     
    “Did you not watch the clip? Did you not see how fast acting the DG Cells are? They GREW TENTACLES to reattach a severed limb from a Gundam, one which was sliced through with a beam saber. Beam sabers use plasma, the joints had to of been mangled beyond use, which means the DG cells regenerated the machine’s joint as well, or just took control of the arm directly once it was back in place. The can instantly generate ammunition for unique, never before seen or after weapons on other infected gundams. They can make the dead in to drones, which the Borg can’t do. They act with such incredible speed and form equipment so swiftly that the Borg have nothing even close to what their tech can do, and they just keep getting better as time goes on. All the Devil Gundam wants is to kill, and that’s what it adapts itself to do. The Borg can’t handle a monster that is capable of that. Virtually nothing can. Most sci-fi settings that exist would find themselves dead after a few years if the Devil Gundam were dropped in to them. The DG Cells would just infect the borg as they do everyone else. The only thing that seems capable of stopping it the Borg can’t do.”
     
    Irrelevant. Worst case scenario they seal it away in a dimensional rift or some such. Trek has plenty of way of dealing with stuff like that. Species 8472 could simply atomize it with their planet busting attack for example.
     
    “I don’t think you understand the difference between CIS and PIS, or the requirements for CIS.”
     
    Irrelevant. This is an all out war to the death scenario, not a “what is the two met” scenario. The Borg are stipulated by BankGambling rules to consider Gundam a deadly threat and will not treat it as they do the distant and non-threatening Federation, which they’re trying to assimilate at optimal efficiency with a minimal expenditure of resources at their leisure.
     
    Besides, the Borg have been seen to go all out at least twice before. Once in a trough total war against species 8472 and once by sending a whole fleet of cubes to assimilate some species in the delta quadrant (As in, not on the far side of the galaxy 40,000 lightyears from their territory).
     
    “The substance.”
     
    It distorts EM radiation.
     
    “Because every method I know of for detection wouldn’t work outside of gravity detection isn’t bias. It doesn’t matter how advanced their sensors are, they still have to be looking for something specific to pick up on. All they’d find is a big fuzzy spot in the general area of where something should be.”
     
    Minshovski radiation distorts EM radiation. The more powerful the radiation the greater the distortion, but distance is also as big a factor- the more distance a beam of light goes through inside the field the greater the distortion. Longer wavelengths are affected more acutely, though even visible light can be noticeably distorted by a sufficiently powerful field over a sufficiently long distance.
     
    Since all ST sensors operate through subspace they wouldn’t be noticeably affected even if they are EM based (which most of them aren’t).
     
    “You have my condolences concerning that awful SGU and the death of the franchise.”
     
    I shall forever loathe the Scy-Fy (eugh) channel for what they did to Stargate…
     
    “Trek ships don’t regularly fight at FTL because you can’t dogfight at FTL. You can only chase. Can they even hit sublight targets that aren’t big and obvious and slow?”
     
    Yes, they can hit small targets from FTL. There are plenty of reasons why ST ships don’t usually fight in warp speed, most prominent of which are that it’ll be nearly impossible for their weapons to hit a ship moving at warp speeds unless the weapon is also at warp speeds and the fact maintaining warp would require massive power they could be putting into weapons or shields, making it counterproductive against warp capable enemies.
     
    Faced with a sublight foe they really have no reason to drop out of warp.
     
    “Yeah, they’ll never know its coming because their wars aren’t fought with armies of clones of precog psychics, right? That’s why Amuro didn’t know the colony laser was about to destroy the federation fleet several seconds before it nearly wiped them out? Gundam fightings is almost nothing but precognition, mind reading, and attempts to jam those abilities.”
     
    Handy, but only if you can do something to prevent what you see coming.
     
    “I’ll respond to Galorian at an undetermined time in the future. Things to do ‘n whatnot. Don’t worry Galorian, I’m not ignoring you.”
     
    I’m a big boy. I’ll handle it.

  84. CIDE September 13, 2011 at 11:08 pm -      #84

    “-actually the only way to be shown to be omnipotent is to have it stated so.”

    Not true. Now, you could be shown to be omnipotent to contradict your own powers. I.E. Make a rock so heavy that you can’t lift it. Then proceed to both lift it and be unable to lift it at the same time. Essentially, get into the whole paradox BS.

    “-knowing there is a battle as in what they actually did do in the show, they will have shields up. and one of the most famous manuevors is one that takes advantage of sublight opponents by using warp in the “dogfight” of a battle, only reason it isn’t used more often is pis and other ships in ST actually have ftl to fight with so it’s pointless. someone here knows the name of it i’m sure. it’s one of the captains or number 2s.”

    Picard.

    “-yeah, ^above is why statements like this seem uneducated. but if you didn’t know then no fault on you.”

    It’s not useful against other ships with the same type of FTL drives.

    “If he were omnipotent he’d be omniscient,”

    I had to reread this comment three times before I realized it wasn’t a joke…

    “He’s never out right stopped any federation ship from being obliterated, to my knowledge.”

    Q have never dealt with a threat to themselves though. And if your machine is as good as you say/think it is then there’s adequate reason to deal with it.

    “The worst thing about this is you are assuming what the people in control of the current vision of trek want. ”

    Abrams-verse is not current incarnation.

    “Trek ships don’t regularly fight at FTL because you can’t dogfight at FTL. You can only chase. Can they even hit sublight targets that aren’t big and obvious and slow?”

    They have before.

    “No, that’s actually the most common argument I see. Trek ships just strafe shit at FTL and win, even though 99% of the fights I’ve seen are sub light battles.”

    A point that’s been covered in 99% of the debates too.

  85. Galorian September 18, 2011 at 4:14 pm -      #85

    @Sauroposeidon

    You never did respond to my last few posts, and it’s been 5 days already.

    Can I infere from that that you concede?

  86. Commander Cross September 25, 2011 at 11:54 am -      #86

    This battle is actually getting good.
    Given that the heaviest hitters on M.S.G’s end(mobile suit-wise, not necessarily fleet-wise until further notice!) include the Dark/Devil Gundam, the Turns A and X Gundams, the Burning/God Gundam, and the Phoenix Gundam, this is going to be so epic, many of our minds will blow up! :8 :cool:

  87. Sauroposeidon October 27, 2011 at 4:12 pm -      #87

    Hey look I got off my ass! I actually forgot about the thread, Galorian. Then when I remembered I also remembered how the trek wiki fucked with me and I was not too enthusiastic about risking it’s wrath again. So, time to begin again.
    ————————————————–
    “I one episode of TNG the crew encounters a Q who opted to live as a mortal. That Q erased an entire warlike species in a feat of rage after they were responsible for the death of his loved ones”
    Can you cite the episode? Because I’d like to track it down.
    ————————————-
    “That isn’t nearly enough to place it in the same general region as the Q, let alone the same playing field.”
    Manifesting the will of the people does do this. You can keep saying it doesn’t but that doesn’t change the facts. If they want it to do something it does that. They could be DEAD and it would still continue to act, as we’ve seen with Chan in Char’s Counter Attack.
    ————————————–
    “Practically omnipotent by our level of understanding. There’s nothing we can conceive a Q can’t do unless another Q interferes.”
    Except he has not displayed the ability to be omnipotent. There’s a difference between having great power and being omnipotent. He can make very convincing illusions and he can move stuff around, assuming that wasn’t an illusion as well. Those are the only feats that Q has ever shown.
    ————————————
    “The first and so far last time the Q ever reproduced was during a particularly embarrassing episode of Voyager, and their complete freedom of movement through the 4th dimension (AKA time) means they exist in all points in time that we can conceive. They may have evolved to that level at some point, but the moment the got to it they became omnipresent throughout time (to whatever degree plot demands at least. Deus Ex Machina indeed…).”
    The Q are not omnipresent, they can time travel, but that’s different. This is really their only hope against the Gundam Multiverse unless we’re including the one with Ideon.. then they’re fucked no matter what. Not that I’m arguing for that.
    ——————————————–
    “You’re completely ignoring the BankGambling rules for universe matches. All things in each universe drop all PIS and any CIS preventing them from fighting on the same side against the opposing universe and will fight as if they consider the opposition to be a deadly threat. CIS against killing is also removed.”
    CIS would not stop Q from acting in self defense if someone came for him directly. CIS stops him from doing anything immediately outside of perpetually saving Picard’s butt over and over and over again every time the Gundam forces close in to rip his ship to small pieces. This is not a case of me using CIS to say Q will just die with out doing anything, it’s me saying he won’t do shit unless he absolutely has to. If you want to remove something like that, then I’ll gladly bring up Ideon, which the Q can’t stop.
    ————————————–
    “Regardless of whether or not you use latest incarnation or height of power ST stomps Gundam.”
    Saying this and not providing proof for it doesn’t work. We know for a fact Gundams possess the fire power to out maneuver trek ships, they don’t run out of power after just a few minutes of fighting, they have the fire power to take down Trek Ships, and have more ships than trek vessels have the power reserves to fire in shots. Even with out ELS or Devil Gundam all Gundam has to do is sit on Earth and throw wave after wave of older, out dated ships at Gundam vessels and sooner or later their own weapons will drain them of power. We’ve seen the enterprise alone suffer power issues with repeated firings of its phasers. We know trek ships can’t dog fight. We know when they do fight they lumber about at sub light speeds like beached whales all the time. If we both use current setting then we’re either using UC circa UC0100, Gundam 00, which just stomps all over Trek, or Gundam AGE, which only just began so I don’t think it’s really going to be usable until it finishes it’s run. In the mean time you’re using slightly enhanced TOS era tech with no Q or any of that other stuff that cropped up in TNG, DS9, Voyager, ect.
    ————————————-
    “Irrelevant. Worst case scenario they seal it away in a dimensional rift or some such. Trek has plenty of way of dealing with stuff like that. Species 8472 could simply atomize it with their planet busting attack for example.”
    Good luck getting every single DG-Cell trapped in a warp. Or atomizing the entire thing. No matter how many times they killed it, brought it down, or vaporized its forces it was always back, bigger and stronger than before. In its universe, the power of true love ended up being what was needed to defeat it. Unless Trek has a way of doing this, it can’t defeat it, and it will infest everything across the galaxy once it has FTL tech, which thanks to Gundam 00 it will have.
    —————————————
    “rrelevant. This is an all out war to the death scenario, not a “what is the two met” scenario. The Borg are stipulated by BankGambling rules to consider Gundam a deadly threat and will not treat it as they do the distant and non-threatening Federation, which they’re trying to assimilate at optimal efficiency with a minimal expenditure of resources at their leisure.”
    Then they’re still boned once they encounter the ELS or the Devil Gundam.
    ————————————–
    “Minshovski radiation distorts EM radiation. The more powerful the radiation the greater the distortion, but distance is also as big a factor- the more distance a beam of light goes through inside the field the greater the distortion. Longer wavelengths are affected more acutely, though even visible light can be noticeably distorted by a sufficiently powerful field over a sufficiently long distance.”
    Either these sensors the trek ships are using are reaching through sub space to look for something which has been distorted already by the minovsky particles, or it’s looking for some kind of imprint on subspace. You’ll have to be more specific, although since the gundam vessels don’t come from a universe with subspace, why they’d interact with it I don’t know. If you could be more specific it’d help, not that it matters much if the ELS are teleporting willy-nilly through out the galaxy to avoid ever being detected.
    ———————————-
    “I shall forever loathe the Scy-Fy (eugh) channel for what they did to Stargate…”
    I used to be a really nice guy. Then SGU happened. I am the bitter ass hole whom you now debate with. *hiss*
    ———————————-
    “Yes, they can hit small targets from FTL. There are plenty of reasons why ST ships don’t usually fight in warp speed, most prominent of which are that it’ll be nearly impossible for their weapons to hit a ship moving at warp speeds unless the weapon is also at warp speeds and the fact maintaining warp would require massive power they could be putting into weapons or shields, making it counterproductive against warp capable enemies.”
    They can attack each other at Warp, supposedly. They don’t because they have to line up with something to make their relative velocity as far as the weapon is concerned zero or near it. Hitting an object, even at subspace speeds, is virtually impossible as long as they are moving at a decent speed even if you’re going at warp. There, I said it. There’s simply no way to accurately attack something when relative velocities are even remotely high. That is assuming that the target object isn’t moving in an obvious straight line. With out precog, a coordinated mass strafing run might work on Gundam.. but they have it, and will response accordingly when the threat is detected. Considering even the oldest Gundam ships can maneuver fairly well, the Trek Ships will always be engaging at sublight speeds.. kind of like when they were attacking that Borg Cube in first contact instead of just FTL strafing runs on it.
    —————————————————
    “Handy, but only if you can do something to prevent what you see coming.”
    You can move out of the way. That tends to help.
    —————————————————-
    “I had to reread this comment three times before I realized it wasn’t a joke…”
    It’s one of the biggest anti-god arguments around. Omnipotence implies omniscience. You can’t be omnipotent and not be omniscient.
    —————————————————–
    “Abrams-verse is not current incarnation.”
    There’s been a newer trek after abrams verse?
    —————————————————–
    “A point that’s been covered in 99% of the debates too.”
    Perhaps you’d like to elaborate then against what I believe is why they so often fight at sub light speeds.

  88. Gluttonous-Behemoth October 27, 2011 at 4:25 pm -      #88

    @Sauro

    *Applause*

  89. CIDE October 27, 2011 at 5:55 pm -      #89

    “Manifesting the will of the people does do this. You can keep saying it doesn’t but that doesn’t change the facts. If they want it to do something it does that. They could be DEAD and it would still continue to act, as we’ve seen with Chan in Char’s Counter Attack.”

    What you suggest is a NLF without giving some upper end feats that actually put it in the same tier as omnipotents. Or even galaxy/universe busters at the very least.

    “Except he has not displayed the ability to be omnipotent. There’s a difference between having great power and being omnipotent. He can make very convincing illusions and he can move stuff around, assuming that wasn’t an illusion as well. Those are the only feats that Q has ever shown.”

    Uh…huh. You want to claim that anything they’ve ever done was all an illusion? Time travel, chronomanipulation, universe-level fuckery, ACCIDENTALLY busting solar systems without even being in the same plane of existence, etc…? Proof. ’cause on he very same grounds I could see that any special ability we’ve ever seen in any canon was all an illusion unless we take it at face value.

    “CIS would not stop Q from acting in self defense if someone came for him directly. CIS stops him from doing anything immediately outside of perpetually saving Picard’s butt over and over and over again every time the Gundam forces close in to rip his ship to small pieces. This is not a case of me using CIS to say Q will just die with out doing anything, it’s me saying he won’t do shit unless he absolutely has to. If you want to remove something like that, then I’ll gladly bring up Ideon, which the Q can’t stop.”

    Not true; the Q will act in dealing with “lower” species. Granted, most of it (openly) is little hints and nudges. Namely when the Federation came to deal with the Borg. Hints (but no proof) that there was SOME help in the process too.

    Also, how is this ‘Ideon’ going to compete?

    “Saying this and not providing proof for it doesn’t work. We know for a fact Gundams possess the fire power to out maneuver trek ships, they don’t run out of power after just a few minutes of fighting, they have the fire power to take down Trek Ships, and have more ships than trek vessels have the power reserves to fire in shots. Even with out ELS or Devil Gundam all Gundam has to do is sit on Earth and throw wave after wave of older, out dated ships at Gundam vessels and sooner or later their own weapons will drain them of power. We’ve seen the enterprise alone suffer power issues with repeated firings of its phasers. We know trek ships can’t dog fight. We know when they do fight they lumber about at sub light speeds like beached whales all the time. If we both use current setting then we’re either using UC circa UC0100, Gundam 00, which just stomps all over Trek, or Gundam AGE, which only just began so I don’t think it’s really going to be usable until it finishes it’s run. In the mean time you’re using slightly enhanced TOS era tech with no Q or any of that other stuff that cropped up in TNG, DS9, Voyager, ect.”

    How many ships are there again…? And there’s plenty of proof indicating otherwise to your ‘dog fighting’ thing. In fact the only bit supporting your comment is NOT current incarnation anyway (Next Generation).

    Beyond that how are transphasic cloaks and weapons being dealt with again…?

    “Good luck getting every single DG-Cell trapped in a warp. Or atomizing the entire thing. No matter how many times they killed it, brought it down, or vaporized its forces it was always back, bigger and stronger than before. In its universe, the power of true love ended up being what was needed to defeat it. Unless Trek has a way of doing this, it can’t defeat it, and it will infest everything across the galaxy once it has FTL tech, which thanks to Gundam 00 it will have.”

    What would nanites do to it…? Or various types of radiation?

    ““Abrams-verse is not current incarnation.”
    There’s been a newer trek after abrams verse?”

    Face? Meet Palm.

    Current Incarnation follows the furthest along moment chronologically in universe. Abrams-verse is actually before The Original Series. Beyond that it’s one of several alternate universes to boot. Which means it’s not even remotely close to current incarnation. Voyager+ is current incarnation.
    -

  90. Galorian October 27, 2011 at 7:55 pm -      #90

    “Can you cite the episode? Because I’d like to track it down.”

    It’s TNG Season 3 Episode 3 – The Survivors
    I was wrong about it being a Q, as the being responsible is a lesser form of energy being. Still wiped out an advanced space faring species with a population of 50 billion in a fit of rage.

    Here’s the Wiki Quote-
    Kevin now reveals that he is a Douwd, an immortal energy being with vast powers. While traveling in human form, he had met Rishon and fallen in love with her, and eventually settled with her on Rana IV. When the planet was attacked by an aggressive, destructive species called the Husnock, he refused to join in the fight (in accordance with his species’ strict pacifism), but Rishon did, and she died with the rest of the 11,000 colonists, never having known that he was not human.

    Stricken by grief and giving in to his rage, Kevin used his powers to destroy the Husnock. Not just the attacking vessel and its crew, he explains, but “all Husnock, everywhere” — annihilating the entire species, over 50 billion. Horrified by his crime, he chose self-exile to the planet, creating the replicas of Rishon and their house with which to spend the rest of eternity, and using a recreation of the Husnock ship as intimidation to keep their privacy. Picard feels it is not his place to judge Kevin’s actions, so he decides that the best course of action is to allow the Douwd to continue his exile. The Enterprise leaves Kevin and his illusion in peace, and Picard warns that he be left alone.


    That guy should be able to win the match all by his lonesome, and he isn’t on par with the Q…
    ____________________________
    “Manifesting the will of the people does do this. You can keep saying it doesn’t but that doesn’t change the facts. If they want it to do something it does that. They could be DEAD and it would still continue to act, as we’ve seen with Chan in Char’s Counter Attack.”

    Aizen Susuke of Bleach had a sphere that manifested his will. Didn’t make him or it omnipotent no matter how many times he stated he was beyond all the insignificant un-evolved beings that made up the rest of the world.

    These machines you’re putting your faith in haven’t demonstrated anything beyond low level reality manipulation, and you’ve yet to bring up any evidence to suggest that their power is infinite.

    The Q have the ability to change universal constants, erase and return things to existence, travel freely through time and space, send anything freely through time and space, shrink a starship to the size of a proton, deprive similarly omnipotent being of their power, give regular beings the powers of a Q, bring people back to life, be at several places at once, turn a warp core into a disco, etc…

    The Q can do literally anything we can conceive effortlessly and instantaneously. You have absolutely no basis for your claim that these computers can equal their power.

    Your arguments on this subject are probably the most glaring case of the No-Limits Fallacy I’ve ever seen, and I’ve been arguing against Mike for over a year now…
    ____________________________
    “Except he has not displayed the ability to be omnipotent. There’s a difference between having great power and being omnipotent. He can make very convincing illusions and he can move stuff around, assuming that wasn’t an illusion as well. Those are the only feats that Q has ever shown.”

    And you can back this claim with anything other than idle speculation, right?

    So far there hasn’t been anything a Q couldn’t do effortlessly unless another Q interfered. Stop asking me to present some kind of “proof of omnipotence”, such a thing cannot exist by its very definition. Simply going by existing feats we can determine that the Q automatically win this match.
    _____________________________
    “The Q are not omnipresent, they can time travel, but that’s different. This is really their only hope against the Gundam Multiverse unless we’re including the one with Ideon.. then they’re fucked no matter what. Not that I’m arguing for that.”

    They can exist in multiple places in time, space and parallel realities simultaneously. Practical omnipresence is within their range of capabilities, even if they don’t exercise it. It also happens to be redundant in this match, since all they have to do to win is snap their fingers.
    __________________________
    “CIS would not stop Q from acting in self defense if someone came for him directly. CIS stops him from doing anything immediately outside of perpetually saving Picard’s butt over and over and over again every time the Gundam forces close in to rip his ship to small pieces. This is not a case of me using CIS to say Q will just die with out doing anything, it’s me saying he won’t do shit unless he absolutely has to. If you want to remove something like that, then I’ll gladly bring up Ideon, which the Q can’t stop.”

    BankGambling rules clearly state that the Q would consider the Gundamverse a deadly threat and are bloodlusted. Their general boredom with the Trekverse is meaningless here.
    __________________________
    “Saying this and not providing proof for it doesn’t work. We know for a fact Gundams possess the fire power to out maneuver trek ships, they don’t run out of power after just a few minutes of fighting, they have the fire power to take down Trek Ships, and have more ships than trek vessels have the power reserves to fire in shots. “

    I’m yet to see anyone bring up a Gundam weapon ST can’t match. Hell, I’m yet to see one that the UFP can’t match…

    Startrek ships don’t simply run out of power mid battle unless their reactors are damaged, their anti-matter reserves would last them a great deal longer than any engagement. You seem to be confusing the energy generation of their reactors with the discharge-recharge rates of their phaser banks.

    Starfleet ship Phaser banks charge up from the ship’s power supply and are then discharged when the Phaser fires. Once the Phaser stops firing the banks can be recharged for another barrage. This has nothing to do with the ship’s own power generation capabilities, just a limitation of the weapon itself.

    Starfleet alone has over 8,000 battle ready starships, the Dominion has over 15,000, the Klingons and the Romulans have over 6,000 each. These are all drops in the bucket compared to Borg numbers. Species 8472 stomps the Borg on every level (save maybe numbers). I’m yet to see numbers on the Gundamverse that would come even remotely close to compare
    ______________________________
    “We know trek ships can’t dog fight. We know when they do fight they lumber about at sub light speeds like beached whales all the time.”

    This has been disproven time and again. I refuse to endlessly repeat myself just because you won’t listen.
    ____________________________
    “In the mean time you’re using slightly enhanced TOS era tech with no Q or any of that other stuff that cropped up in TNG, DS9, Voyager, ect.”

    Again, this has been disproven. The Abrams movie takes place in a parallel universe the the main Trekverse. If we were to take anything from that movie as relevant to ST’s current incarnation it would be the tech brought into it from the main Trekverse by future Spok and the Narada (Black hole missiles! ^^).
    ___________________________
    “Good luck getting every single DG-Cell trapped in a warp. Or atomizing the entire thing. No matter how many times they killed it, brought it down, or vaporized its forces it was always back, bigger and stronger than before. In its universe, the power of true love ended up being what was needed to defeat it. Unless Trek has a way of doing this, it can’t defeat it, and it will infest everything across the galaxy once it has FTL tech, which thanks to Gundam 00 it will have.”

    Thanks to time travel tech they have an infinite amount of retries to get it right. And their sensors would have no problem detecting nanotech.
    ___________________________
    “Either these sensors the trek ships are using are reaching through sub space to look for something which has been distorted already by the minovsky particles, or it’s looking for some kind of imprint on subspace. You’ll have to be more specific, although since the gundam vessels don’t come from a universe with subspace, why they’d interact with it I don’t know. If you could be more specific it’d help, not that it matters much if the ELS are teleporting willy-nilly through out the galaxy to avoid ever being detected.”

    They work with both principles as far as I can tell. Both would be immune to Minshovski radiation anyway-
    The EM distortion is a function of the distance traveled. Since the sensors work through subspace they wouldn’t be affected en route, and even if they scan EM radiation in the target location the dX in which said signal was exposed to the Minshovski radiation would be infinitesimal.
    ____________________________
    “They can attack each other at Warp, supposedly. They don’t because they have to line up with something to make their relative velocity as far as the weapon is concerned zero or near it. Hitting an object, even at subspace speeds, is virtually impossible as long as they are moving at a decent speed even if you’re going at warp. There, I said it. There’s simply no way to accurately attack something when relative velocities are even remotely high. That is assuming that the target object isn’t moving in an obvious straight line. With out precog, a coordinated mass strafing run might work on Gundam.. but they have it, and will response accordingly when the threat is detected. Considering even the oldest Gundam ships can maneuver fairly well, the Trek Ships will always be engaging at sublight speeds.. kind of like when they were attacking that Borg Cube in first contact instead of just FTL strafing runs on it.”

    Had Starfleet attempted such a tactic against the cube it would’ve either answered in kind or headed straight for Earth, neither scenario would’ve been in SF’s favor. They had plenty of reasons to engage it as they did.

    You might be right about the difficulty of engaging targets moving at warp speeds, but that is irrelevant seeing as how ST ships would be running circles around the Gundam mechas, enabling them to line up perfect shots against these low STL targets.

    ST is perfectly capable of deploying high yield devices this way meaning they could miss by however far a Gundam can dodge in a second or two and still vaporize it in the detonation.
    __________________________
    “You can move out of the way. That tends to help.”

    With STL maneuverability that’s meaningless.
    __________________________
    “It’s one of the biggest anti-god arguments around. Omnipotence implies omniscience. You can’t be omnipotent and not be omniscient.”

    How about… no?

    One definitely does not imply the other. A being can be all knowing and entirely incapable of doing anything about it or all powerful and not know everything.

  91. BC October 27, 2011 at 8:06 pm -      #91

    “ “I one episode of TNG the crew encounters a Q who opted to live as a mortal. That Q erased an entire warlike species in a feat of rage after they were responsible for the death of his loved ones”
    Can you cite the episode? Because I’d like to track it down. “
    ————————————-
    I am not sure about an episode with Q doing that, but it is certainly possible though they are usually more responsible acting than that. There was an episode “The Survivor” where a Douwd (a kind of super telepathic energy creature that is far less powerful than a Q) did do that though. He was living as a Terran colonist named Kevin Uxbridge (like the Q they seem to have a soft spot for humans in general and Terrans in particular when picking a form to materialize in) when the Husnock raider attacked and wiped out the colony causing a moment of irritated rage in which he reached out and killed the entire species everywhere before realizing what he was doing.

    “ ————————————–
    “Practically omnipotent by our level of understanding. There’s nothing we can conceive a Q can’t do unless another Q interferes.”
    Except he has not displayed the ability to be omnipotent. There’s a difference between having great power and being omnipotent. He can make very convincing illusions and he can move stuff around, assuming that wasn’t an illusion as well. Those are the only feats that Q has ever shown.
    ———————————— “

    That is a joke, right? To move a planetoid a Q finds it more entertaining to momentarily change the gravity constant of the universe than to expend energy pushing it (in ‘Deja Q’).

    When they want to talk to mortals in a neutral area they temporarily create a universe and pop off to it with their guests because no one but a Q can comprehend their continuum (that happens a few times, but the first was ‘Death Wish’ if I remember correctly), though in ‘The Q and the Gray’ Q takes Janeway to the continuum but temporarily changes it first to something a human can comprehend without going mad.

    The Q played by Delancy knew the exact time and place that the first lifeform developed on earth and tricked Picard into causing an anti-time anomaly to stop it just so he could prove a point and have fun watching Picard scramble to try to fix it (with a few hints from Q of course). He took Picard to the spot and time of that first spark of Terran life to watch the event not happen to motivate Picard. That was in ‘All Good Things’.

    During the Q civil war every time one of the Q ‘pistols’ was fired a random star went nova back in the ‘normal’ universe (that was also in ‘The Q and the Gray’).

    Does any of that sound like ‘just illusions and moving things around?’


    “ Current Incarnation follows the furthest along moment chronologically in universe. Abrams-verse is actually before The Original Series. Beyond that it’s one of several alternate universes to boot. Which means it’s not even remotely close to current incarnation. Voyager+ is current incarnation. “

    True, the following is from an interview with Robert Orci and outlines the way the movie officially fits in with the Star Trek continuity in general:

    “ Anthony: So what happens with the destruction of the Kelvin is the creation of an alternative timeline, but what happens to the prime timeline after Nero leaves it? Does it continue or does it wink out of existence once he goes back and creates this new timeline.

    Bob: It continues. According to the most successful, most tested scientific theory ever, quantum mechanics, it continues.

    Anthony: So everyone in the prime timeline, like Picard and Riker, are still off doing there thing, it is just that Nero is gone.

    Bob: Yes, and you will notice that whenever the movie comes out, that whatever DVDs you have purchased, will continue to exist.

    Anthony: OK we just dove pretty deep into Trek physics minutiae. Is any of that discussed in the film? In “Back To The Future II,” there is that scene with the Doc and Marty, where the Doc explains time travel to Marty on a chalkboard. Does Spock ever do that with Kirk?

    Bob: It would seem very logical. Quantum mechanics avoids the grandfather paradox that Back to the Future relies on, which is: you can go back in Back to the Future and screw with your own birth and potentially invalidate your own birth. In quantum mechanics that is not the case. In quantum mechanics, if you go back and kill your own father, then you just live on as the guy who came in from another universe who lives in a universe where you killed some guy, but you don’t erase your existence doing that. “

    As you can see it is not just one of the normal same timeline time travel stories that overwrites what happened before, it is the creation of a whole new timeline using a quantum shift instead of the back and forth along same timeline that (almost) always happened before.

  92. Galorian November 8, 2011 at 11:48 am -      #92

    Sooo…

    Startrek for the Stomppile award +1.

  93. Gluttonous-Behemoth November 8, 2011 at 11:51 am -      #93

    No.

  94. Sauroposeidon November 8, 2011 at 2:06 pm -      #94

    “What you suggest is a NLF without giving some upper end feats that actually put it in the same tier as omnipotents. Or even galaxy/universe busters at the very least.”
    I don’t think either side (outside of Ideon, whom I’ve made it clear I don’t want to use.) has galaxy/universe busters. Q are not omnipotents. The psychic tech in Gundam is NLF, but it requires the will of the people. While it’s been enhanced to be capable of doing some powerful stuff with just one person, the more people there are, the more quickly and powerfully it reacts. Thus why if you have an entire multiverse it’s going to just slap around whatever it wants. One person alone allows it to warp space, negate energy attacks, or keep their will working even after they’ve been vaporized. Imagine a few hundred billion people all willing it to stop something at once.
    —-
    “Uh…huh. You want to claim that anything they’ve ever done was all an illusion? Time travel, chronomanipulation, universe-level fuckery, ACCIDENTALLY busting solar systems without even being in the same plane of existence, etc…? Proof. ’cause on he very same grounds I could see that any special ability we’ve ever seen in any canon was all an illusion unless we take it at face value.”
    I don’t actually believe everything he did is an illusion. I was trying to make a point that because his forte is clearly illusions and that he’s never just offed people before that everything he’s done may very well be illusions. It was an argument that he’s certainly not as powerful as he wants everyone to believe. I never liked Q, though, so that should explain why most of my arguments involving him are as dickish as any involving..ugh.. Voyager. The only feats I’ve managed to find for him is moving stuff around and illusions, at least when I went to go read up on him.
    —–
    “Not true; the Q will act in dealing with “lower” species. Granted, most of it (openly) is little hints and nudges. Namely when the Federation came to deal with the Borg. Hints (but no proof) that there was SOME help in the process too.”
    You’re right. He does provide cryptic intel. He’d probably dump the Enterprise on the Apsalus Testing groups and yank it away before the thing can fire on them or something so they have a good scan of some tech or fire power abilities.
    ——-
    “Also, how is this ‘Ideon’ going to compete?”
    Ideon destroyed the universe at the end of its series/movies when it was destroyed. Tomino, who made both Ideon and Gundam, did a Manga involving the Ideon appearing in Gundam. The story revealed that the Ideon actually rewrote the universe when it lost its physical form. It created the gundam one after erasing the ideon anime universe, hoping newtypes would lead humanity to peace this time. This is not something that happened in the main time line for Universal Century gundam, however, which is why I don’t pull it out as the winning card.. that and it’s a boring argument. I’d only seriously use it if there’s really no other way.

    “How many ships are there again…? And there’s plenty of proof indicating otherwise to your ‘dog fighting’ thing. In fact the only bit supporting your comment is NOT current incarnation anyway (Next Generation).”
    Most of what I’ve watched is TNG and TOS.

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpoHcjym2bk

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXjaZe3lPF8
    at 43 seconds in. There are no stars in that image.

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8dYHvJGj_U

    I would also suggest watching MS IGLOO, where their actual cruisers move like bombers when they aren’t trying to hold a line. There’s only 9 episodes total involving both MS IGLOO and MS IGLOO 2 but if you like UC Gundam at all they’re definitely worth the watch. If you’re not a UC Gundam fan I’d say skip them, though.

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=svsuitgT9ro&feature=related

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=EdAWRIlS1LI
    —-
    www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9LiDzTcq7w&feature=related

    I think we now have covered maneuverability and numbers sufficiently to the point that unless the Borg throw their full weight in to this match, the Gundam Multiverse just has too much to offer for Trek to even begin to remotely stand a chance.
    —-
    “Beyond that how are transphasic cloaks and weapons being dealt with again…?”
    ELS Innovators for the most part I imagine.
    —-
    “What would nanites do to it…? Or various types of radiation?”
    Probably piss it off. The Devil Gundam is pretty much composed of nanites. The nanites would have to be extremely fast acting, able to accomplish more than what we’ve seen the Devil Gundam do.

    “Current Incarnation follows the furthest along moment chronologically in universe. Abrams-verse is actually before The Original Series. Beyond that it’s one of several alternate universes to boot. Which means it’s not even remotely close to current incarnation. Voyager+ is current incarnation.”

    I see it as one of two ways.

    1. Most current incarnation also includes most current universe. At which point Abrams-verse qualifies as it is a different time line from the original

    2. It doesn’t count as its own universe, rendering the rest of trek unusable because we don’t know what changes, what they intend to keep, and what to remove.

    Next up, response to Galorian, maybe. I spent A LONG time on my rant on the OWS video admin put up, and I also filed through a fairly large number of videos for this one (and was still unable to find ones I wanted and had to settle for AMV’s with usually terrible music. I hope I didn’t hurt anyone’s ears too badly with those.) I promise I’ll get to you.. maybe even today. You know how I take long breaks..and forget..sometimes x_x but check back every couple of days, Galorian, if I don’t do it today and I’ll get around to you sooner or later. Don’t assume I concede. I’ll let you know when I concede on a point, as I did to CIDE In this very post over Q’s.. meddling.

  95. Gluttonous-Behemoth November 8, 2011 at 2:22 pm -      #95

    She’d better make lotsa spaghetti!

  96. Sauroposeidon November 8, 2011 at 2:39 pm -      #96

    Oh and I thought CIDE might like to actually see the Ideon. It’s why things like EVA Units and the Gunbuster exist. The original “Big Shoulder” mecha and probably the originator of “KILL EVERYBODY” anime as well. Tomino’s nick name is “Kill ‘em All Tomino” after all. Here’s the planet chopping, black hole wielding, missile spamming bastard itself. Set to music from the anime, actually.. oh.. There are some spoilers…
    —-

  97. Galorian November 8, 2011 at 2:54 pm -      #97

    @Sauroposeidon

    The bottom line of all of those vids you posted is that not having energy shields sucks big time.

    All of those fancy PD lasers, miniature rocket spams and nanite missile swarms would be next to useless against ships with triple digit gigaton shielding (more for some).

    That fleet busting gun might come in handy if it can be focused enough to hit single targets (a wide burst would be useless since no single ship would be exposed to sufficient firepower to drop its shields), and the cannon that punched through a planetoid would probably be capable of taking out ST ships as well, but those are the only weapons you showed that come close to the firepower required.

    Don’t forget that Kirk era photon torpedoes have a minimal safe firing distance of 40,000km when firing with shields down.

  98. pimpscastle December 5, 2011 at 11:29 pm -      #98

    gundam would win easy

  99. Commander Cross December 5, 2011 at 11:43 pm -      #99

    @Master Sarge

    I agree on that much.
    The Ideon would count as an outright God!-Tier being in canon, and even things like the Phoenix Gundam or the Turns-A and X Gundams would be very painful thorns for Side B to deal with.
    Should it turn out the entire Mobile Suit Multi-verse be working together, they also have plenty of very nasty tech at their side, to boot.

    Let Mortal Kombat Kommence, as someone once said. :cool:

  100. Sauroposeidon December 7, 2011 at 3:11 pm -      #100

    @ Cross
    Ideon is only canon in his own manga. It’s as much a part of the actual Gundam timeline as the Abrams verse timeline is a part of the original Trek timeline. Yes, Turn A and Turn X are instant wins where every they are due to their ability to shut down all technology.. but I’m going to have to go about this slowly. Every time I write up a big long post something happens to fuck it over before I can post it. So we get to go over this excruciatingly slowly now. point by point. I guess I’ll work my way up from the bottom. First of all..

    @ Galorian
    As you may have read, this thread is more or less cursed for me, so I’ll only be going over one point and once we’re finished we can move on to another.

    “Don’t forget that Kirk era photon torpedoes have a minimal safe firing distance of 40,000km when firing with shields down.”
    This matters to a teleporter how? Why did they downgrade their torps then? Because if you watch DS9 and TNG they can nail opponents who are less than a kilometer away with those things and not worry about any splash damage at all. You’d think even with superior federation tech shielding the good guys the old model alien ships would all explode from the splash damage of even just one of their allies getting hit by one. But they don’t. So I think it’s safe to say we won’t be seeing 40k km range explosions with any real numbers, while a Devil Gundam / ELS bonded composite monstrosity could just eat the Gundam Physalis, obtain it’s atomic bazooka, and spam the directional nukes at everything around them while teleporting to and fro. This kind of goes along with the “They fight at FTL speeds” which happens maybe 0.001% of the time and is useless against precogs anyways. You want me to collect a whole zoo of videos showing them NOT fighting at FTL and their torpedoes not insta-raping everything for thousands of kilometers? It wouldn’t be difficult at all. Go on, counter, I dare you =) then we can move on to other points for me to crush.

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