Tyranids Vs The Flood

Tyranids (Warhammer 40K) Vs The Flood (Halo)

Even if the numbers were equal, I just don’t see how the Flood could win this fight. The Tyranids are simply too evolved and they would be able to adapt to get the victory.

Can the Flood pull out an upset victory?

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399 Comments on "Tyranids Vs The Flood"

  1. pimpmage January 16, 2015 at 11:12 am -      #301

    “So your idea of a neutral universe is one where you nerf the flood to uselessness? ”

    Excuse me lol? I can’t believe you are still crying for buffs for the flood side because they are incapable of anything. Maybe they should be more like the tyranids? Like not being shit at multiplying their numbers and fighting wars. Too bad that would be altering their CiS. Like you trying to say they will build tools and mine craft their way to starships. Which they have still never been shown to do.

    “Luckily, the flood can indeed build tools that can use common as fuck dirt and dust to make star ships. And do so much much quicker then the tryanids.”

    Uh no. It took ~300 years for the tyranids to arrive from outside a galaxy to inner areas of a galaxy. You think the flood will make ships before a majority of this neutral universe is already stripped of all resources? Heck, it could be DECADES before they tech up to create STEEL. Though that is hypothetical seeing as their CiS has never shown they making tools whatsoever.

    You want to know why I am so insistent on saying the flood cant do anything without scavenging from others? Because bungie created their race to be exactly like parasites. They are a parasitical race that cannot do shit on their own. And it seems like bungie kept that theme going throughout flood CiS. They are fucking useless without someone to eat and steal from.

  2. IamTaco January 16, 2015 at 11:24 am -      #302

    Yup, just ignoring you now. Since you refuse you the all the evidence that I have already given you.

  3. the_man_with The_Answers January 16, 2015 at 11:26 am -      #303

    “So essentially they fiddled around with the insides, adding upgrades that were already existing on the Infinity. I don’t know if makes any mention about actually physically adding anything to it, or just using the pre-existing material to reconstruct it from scratch.”

    Considering the UNSC doesn’t have Pelican-sized slipspace drives, things had to be made from scratch. UNSC materials science has gotten no where near that level.

    “I separated the hypothetical by a — and not a -which is how i indicate i am addressing something else. I in no way meant to imply that equal numbers were meant in the match or that i thought that the Nids would win based on those equal numbers.”

    Here’s your hypothetical:
    Assuming arbitrary equal amounts of forces, then the absolute minimum amount of troops would have to be the number of total different combatants one of the armies has. So if Tyranids had 20 different species they get one each (As to represent their entire fighting force). then the flood would get 20 guys in a mishmash. But included in that absolute minimum number of troops are Tyranid ships which drink the atmosphere, Flood burn.”

    Notice how your final statement includes the notion that the Flood have lost. You created a scenario in your head that already had an outcome due to the forces you gave each, not by any sort of feats or skills. If the hypothetical didn’t serve as a suggestion for the match rules, and it didn’t serve as any argumentative point for the Tyranid-side, what was it’s point to begin with?

    “Except that MTG is multiversal. But they were not granted one planet for every Plane that was taking part.”

    Yes, because the other side is limited in that regard. Hell, they’re both limited in that regard because they still don’t really have any main inter-stellar capabilities. Flood and Tyranids are not limited in that regard.

    “Didnt the ark/arc? thing blow up??”

    It was damaged, but not destroyed. However, it was damaged at the same time the Flood essentially became “incapacitated.” Current Flood are either crash-landed on The Ark, or have upgraded High Charity but not on The Ark, depending on your interpretation.

    “This is a neutral universe. There are no living things besides tyranids. A planet’s biomass includes soil, oceans, forests. The tyranids eat all of that. Enough to actually make planets noticeable smaller and wipe away atmospheres. Completely different than what the flood do.”

    Do I really have to post the rules AGAIN? The rules state that the field of battle will contain all things necessary for both sides to operate at maximum efficiency. Which would be planets teeming with life.

    Additionally, the Flood infect all life on the planet. The atmosphere, the ground, the oceans, all teeming with Flood.

    “People seem to keep dodging the fact that flood troops are absolute crap. This is completely one sided.”

    Utter basic combat forms might be “crap” (They can ragdoll ~100kg men across a room and jump something like 15 meters in the air), but the Flood aren’t limited to that. Thrasher forms, for example, can withstand 90mm tank shells and punch through tank armor. The Flood did, after all, beat the Forerunner war machine, which would stomp all over the Tyranids.

    “There are no other LIVING THINGS in this neutral universe besides tyranids. Are you telling me they are absolutely fucking useless now?”

    Tyranids can’t grow either without biomass…
    Hence a neutral galaxy would require life-rich planets to allow both sides to operate as efficiently as possible.

    -

  4. Tyran January 16, 2015 at 11:28 am -      #304

    Maybe they should be more like the tyranids? Like not being shit at multiplying their numbers and fighting wars.

    Tyranids would have gotten their asses kicked by the Forerunners, so no. Both races have different strengths and will do differently depending on the situation.

  5. the_man_with The_Answers January 16, 2015 at 11:34 am -      #305

    “Which they have still never been shown to do.”

    I posted a source of the Forerunners observing the Flood using completely foreign/unknown technology. This technology was listed amongst their other assets of captured ships and ancient Precursor technology, meaning it was neither of those two.

    Which means that the Flood had to make it themselves if nobody else did.

    “And it seems like bungie kept that theme going throughout flood CiS. They are fucking useless without someone to eat and steal from.”

    Guess what company doesn’t own Halo anymore? 343i released the Forerunner Trilogy and the other sources we have given you.

  6. pimpmage January 16, 2015 at 11:35 am -      #306

    “Hence a neutral galaxy would require life-rich planets to allow both sides to operate as efficiently as possible. ”

    Ok that actually makes sense. I am fine with that. But this life that inhabits the galaxy will not have tech to steal. That would just be beyond stupid.

    “Utter basic combat forms might be “crap” (They can ragdoll ~100kg men across a room and jump something like 15 meters in the air), but the Flood aren’t limited to that. Thrasher forms, for example, can withstand 90mm tank shells and punch through tank armor. The Flood did, after all, beat the Forerunner war machine, which would stomp all over the Tyranids.”

    Were those thrashers from halo 3? Were those the giant hunter flood variants?

    “I posted a source of the Forerunners observing the Flood using completely foreign/unknown technology. This technology was listed amongst their other assets of captured ships and ancient Precursor technology, meaning it was neither of those two.”

    That does not prove it was made by the flood for the second fucking time. They could have stolen the ship from some other race they took over.

    “Guess what company doesn’t own Halo anymore? 343i released the Forerunner Trilogy and the other sources we have given you.”

    I said Bungie because they originally created the race. And 343 seems to not have changed the CiS at all. Unless you want to show otherwise.

  7. LadyRamkin January 16, 2015 at 11:54 am -      #307

    “Notice how your final statement includes the notion that the Flood have lost. You created a scenario in your head that already had an outcome due to the forces you gave each, not by any sort of feats or skills. If the hypothetical didn’t serve as a suggestion for the match rules, and it didn’t serve as any argumentative point for the Tyranid-side, what was it’s point to begin with?”

    YOU bought up the idea of equal numbers. and then I responded by giving a run down of what the absolute minimum size of the force would be for each IF that was the case, and what would probably happen in that scenario.

    Tyranid ships drink the atmosphere and are in of themselves Tyranids and are therefore included in the minimum amount. IF the minimum amount was enforced then there would be like, 50 ish flood forms. The atmosphere gets drunk before the Flood accomplish much and they burn.

    1) The entire point was made on a premise that is not being enforced.

    2) It was simply a response to something that you bought up.

    3) The point has no real bearing on this match, so i don’t understand why you are pressing it so hard?

    “the Flood essentially became “incapacitated.” ”

    Define incapacitated. From what you are telling me they seem to be operating at 100% efficiency, they dont seem particularly gimped as a race. or are you referring to military size/number of assets?

    Did we get a response to the blocking of psychic communication thing?

  8. pimpmage January 16, 2015 at 12:17 pm -      #308

    “Did we get a response to the blocking of psychic communication thing?”

    Im going to use an analogy here. From what I have read, if it has 4 wheels, an engine, seats to hold people, its a car. But they are saying its not a car.

  9. IamTaco January 16, 2015 at 1:35 pm -      #309

    I’m going to use an analogy here. It has 4 wheel, an engine and seats to hold people, it’s a car. But then you take a closer look, the engine is actually a micro singularity, the 4 wheels are made of warped spacetime, the seats are made of hardlight and the people are the xeelee.

    Just because it fulfills the same purpose as a car doesn’t make it the same as a ordinary car if materials and processes are vastly different. It’s like calling a xeelee ship a starship and comparing it to a UNSC ship just because they are both starships and have a FTL drive and travel around in space.

  10. pimpmage January 16, 2015 at 1:50 pm -      #310

    I like how you are now trying to debate how the flood’s psychic communication is not effected by the tyranids anti psychic communication field.

  11. LadyRamkin January 16, 2015 at 1:53 pm -      #311

    9. Elemental Compatibility
    Elements commonly associated with one franchise/universe will not be exclusive to that franchise/universe if they can be found in the opposition. For example, it is assumed that psychic powers displayed by characters hailing from Forgotten Realms can and would interact with psychic powers displayed by characters hailing from Starcraft as though they were the same.

  12. IamTaco January 16, 2015 at 1:59 pm -      #312

    Other then the fact that it isn’t magic? It’s like saying that a anit-magic field will work on a culture or xeelee ship.

  13. LadyRamkin January 16, 2015 at 1:59 pm -      #313

    I take it the Flood do use psychic communication? Its not like bio-technical-radio-waves or something? I honestly don’t know.

  14. IamTaco January 16, 2015 at 2:02 pm -      #314

    It’s called neural physics for a reason. Physics. It’s just really really advanced tech.

  15. pimpmage January 16, 2015 at 2:07 pm -      #315

    “Other then the fact that it isn’t magic? It’s like saying that a anit-magic field will work on a culture or xeelee ship.”

    The warp in 40k isn’t magic. Its primal. Its literally part of the universe. Its nature and natural.

    “It’s called neural physics for a reason. Physics. It’s just really really advanced tech.”

    No. The flood are biological. They have no machines in their head to communicate.

  16. IamTaco January 16, 2015 at 2:10 pm -      #316

    ‘The warp in 40k isn’t magic. Its primal. Its literally part of the universe. Its nature and natural.’

    Yeah right. Some proof would be nice. Everyone in 40k itself calls it magic.

    And if it wasn’t magic then you can’t use the elemental compatibility rule too. So just give up.

  17. LadyRamkin January 16, 2015 at 2:10 pm -      #317

    Right, but is it really really advanced tech that lets them communicate with each other in a way that is described in universe as being psychic. Or do they send transmissions between each other with something on the electromagnetic spectrum. Like radio waves. ultra violet pulses? Otherwise elemental compatibility applies.

    “And if it wasn’t magic then you can’t use the elemental compatibility rule too. So just give up.”

    The elemental compatibility rule exists precisely for situations like this. If the two things had to be exactly the same for the rule to work, then there would be no point in the rule existing.

  18. IamTaco January 16, 2015 at 2:18 pm -      #318

    Sigh… It’s like I’m debating with schoolchildren here.

    ‘No. The flood are biological. They have no machines in their head to communicate.’

    Then the tryanids all die due to them being biological, there is no way squishy meat bodies can support the kind of activities the nids do.

    ‘Right, but is it really really advanced tech that lets them communicate with each other in a way that is described in universe as being psychic.’

    Nobody has described it as being psychic. Magic doesn’t exist in halo period.

    ‘Or do they send transmissions between each other with something on the electromagnetic spectrum. Like radio waves. ultra violet pulses? Otherwise elemental compatibility applies.’

    How the hell would I know? That’s the entire point of the flood, they are so fucking advanced that nobody, even the forerunner, know how the fuck they do anything due to how advanced they are. I’m sorry that 343 hasn’t written a scientific paper on FTL communication and neural physics yet.

    Anyway, the shadow in the warp only works on warp-based communcation. That’s the entire point. Non warp based stuff still works fine.

  19. LadyRamkin January 16, 2015 at 2:28 pm -      #319

    “Nobody has described it as being psychic. Magic doesn’t exist in halo period.”

    Being psychic and being magic are not the same thing. Many Sci Fi universe’s have Psychic entities completely absent of magic, it is often a quirk of evolution.

    “How the hell would I know? That’s the entire point of the flood, they are so fucking advanced that nobody, even the forerunner, know how the fuck they do anything due to how advanced they are. I’m sorry that 343 hasn’t written a scientific paper on FTL communication and neural physics yet.”

    Yes, exactly like debating with school children

    “Anyway, the shadow in the warp only works on warp-based communcation. That’s the entire point. Non warp based stuff still works fine.”

    The shadow in the warp effects psychic characters, and non psychic characters to a much lesser degree. Long range communication in 40k is psychic communication albeit through the warp. But it still has a massive derogatory effect on psychic entities.

    If the flood are so advanced then it is possible that they are in fact psychic, (not saying they are) and IF they are, elemental compatibility applies.

  20. pimpmage January 16, 2015 at 2:30 pm -      #320

    “Real Space is a term used to refer to the material universe, as apposed to Warp Space which is the term used to describe the parallel dimension of the Warp. There are several areas of crossover in the galaxy, where these two dimensions converge, including the Eye of Terror and the Maelstrom”
    White Dwarf 139 page 9

    The warp is a dimension that mirrors real space. It mirrors everything in a chaotic way. Even souls. If you have a powerful soul, you can tap into the warp to cast warp powers. This is primal. This is the law of the universe.

    “And if it wasn’t magic then you can’t use the elemental compatibility rule too. So just give up.”

    No. Why would I do that?

    “Sigh… It’s like I’m debating with schoolchildren here.”

    While you arguments are falling apart left and right and you still think you can win this?

    “Then the tryanids all die due to them being biological, there is no way squishy meat bodies can support the kind of activities the nids do.”

    What the fuck are you talking about now?

    “Nobody has described it as being psychic. Magic doesn’t exist in halo period.”

    Its not magic you retard.

    “How the hell would I know? That’s the entire point of the flood, they are so fucking advanced that nobody, even the forerunner, know how the fuck they do anything due to how advanced they are. I’m sorry that 343 hasn’t written a scientific paper on FTL communication and neural physics yet.”

    So you don’t actually know yet you are absolutely certain elemental compatibility does not apply? It most certainly does here.

    “Anyway, the shadow in the warp only works on warp-based communcation. That’s the entire point. Non warp based stuff still works fine.”

    Elemental compatibility would like to have a word with you if you really believe that.

  21. LadyRamkin January 16, 2015 at 2:37 pm -      #321

    “Its not magic you retard.”

    Come on dude, not cool. That is offensive to my people.

    Besides it would be nice if we could keep a at least somewhat civil tone.

  22. pimpmage January 16, 2015 at 2:42 pm -      #322

    He literally has no clue what he is talking about. And he is calling us school children. This is getting really old really fast.

  23. LadyRamkin January 16, 2015 at 2:44 pm -      #323

    Yeah, but from his perspective, we have no idea what we are talking about, if we just start throwing shit at each other we are not just going no where, we are going backwards.

    like evolutionarily, cos monkeys throw poop…. bad joke is bad…

  24. pimpmage January 16, 2015 at 2:49 pm -      #324

    “Yeah, but from his perspective, we have no idea what we are talking about”

    I think he knows exactly what we are talking about. We can all play dumb too but that gets us nowhere. Denying everything and only backpedaling is what he has been doing all day so far. He still has no counter to the actual armies of the tyranids.

  25. Tyran January 16, 2015 at 5:11 pm -      #325

    We don’t know how the Flood Hive Mind works in the first place, we don’t know if it uses some alternate dimension or if it works on real space.

    IMHO, the best course of action for the Flood is to jump to another galaxy so they have time to build up the forces needed to fight the Tyranids.

  26. pimpmage January 16, 2015 at 5:56 pm -      #326

    “We don’t know how the Flood Hive Mind works in the first place, we don’t know if it uses some alternate dimension or if it works on real space.”

    Saying you don’t know doesn’t stop a debate from continuing. We will assume it blocks out flood hive control within proximity until otherwise specified. Tyranids win.

    “IMHO, the best course of action for the Flood is to jump to another galaxy so they have time to build up the forces needed to fight the Tyranids.”

    Sounds smart, but is that something the flood would do with CiS?

  27. LadyRamkin January 16, 2015 at 6:03 pm -      #327

    “saying you don’t know doesn’t stop a debate from continuing. We will assume it blocks out flood hive control within proximity until otherwise specified. Tyranids win.”

    Not necessarily, the shadow in the warp is very specific. We would have to find quotes to determine best we can, how they communicate. For all we know they do it Via complicated chemical signals, which the shadow of the warp would not affect.

    Though if they can communicate from planet to planet without any kind of technology, its fairly safe to assume some kind of psychic shenanigans are going on.

  28. Tyran January 16, 2015 at 6:13 pm -      #328

    Sounds smart, but is that something the flood would do with CiS?

    They exited the galaxy to avoid the Forerunners when the Forerunner-Human war started.

    Also, the Shadow in the Warp is theorized to works because it saturates the Warp with Tyranid communication. How do we know that the Flood Hive Mind wouldn’t do the same?

  29. pimpmage January 16, 2015 at 6:19 pm -      #329

    “Neural physics was a Precursor concept which posited that the Mantle encompassed the entire universe, including living beings, energy and matter. The principles of neural physics also postulated that the entire universe was living, but in a way that was beyond the comprehension of biological organisms.[1]”
    Halo: Cryptum, page 103

    Sounds just like the warp. Its a natural part of the galaxy that is used to communicate. Bingo.

  30. Tyran January 16, 2015 at 6:22 pm -      #330

    The difference is that the Warp is based on another universe, while Neural Physics are based in the material universe.

  31. LadyRamkin January 16, 2015 at 6:25 pm -      #331

    “The difference is that the Warp is based on another universe, while Neural Physics are based in the material universe.”

    Yeah, but they are close enough for elemental comparability to apply, which then leads to the question, what would the shadow in the warp/Mantle actually do, to the Flood? Would they simply revert to a feral state without a guiding hand? Or are all of them intelligent or… what?

  32. Tyran January 16, 2015 at 6:30 pm -      #332

    Yeah, but they are close enough for elemental comparability to apply, which then leads to the question, what would the shadow in the warp/Mantle actually do, to the Flood? Would they simply revert to a feral state without a guiding hand? Or are all of them intelligent or… what?

    Feral Flood are not like feral Tyranids, the Flood is individually intelligent.

    Also, it is theorized that the Tyranids create the Shadow in the Warp as a sub-product of their Hive Mind comunication. Wouldn’t the Flood create their own version?

  33. LadyRamkin January 16, 2015 at 6:37 pm -      #333

    “Wouldn’t the Flood create their own version?”

    Is such a thing ever mentioned in Halo? If not i wouldn’t say so, but it is an interesting idea.

  34. Tyran January 16, 2015 at 6:41 pm -      #334

    Is such a thing ever mentioned in Halo? If not i wouldn’t say so, but it is an interesting idea.

    Considering that no one in Halo (aside of the Flood/Precursors) is psychic or anything similar, it would be like asking the Tau about the Shadow in the Warp.

  35. pimpmage January 16, 2015 at 6:49 pm -      #335

    “Also, it is theorized that the Tyranids create the Shadow in the Warp as a sub-product of their Hive Mind comunication. Wouldn’t the Flood create their own version?”

    The tyranids are not effected by their own, so why would the flood effect it?

  36. LadyRamkin January 16, 2015 at 6:50 pm -      #336

    “The tyranids are not effected by their own, so why would the flood effect it?”

    If the Flood did have their own the same could be said for them.

    “Many scholars suggest the Shadow in the Warp is the result of a constant two way communication between the Hive mind and lesser organisms”

    Is the hive mind a warp entity? If so that might clarify the issue.

  37. pimpmage January 16, 2015 at 6:55 pm -      #337

    “If the Flood did have their own the same could be said for them.”

    The flood do not travel around the galaxy in fleets of ships that number in the millions. They would not be so compact that this effect would happen.

  38. LadyRamkin January 16, 2015 at 7:01 pm -      #338

    “The flood do not travel around the galaxy in fleets of ships that number in the millions. They would not be so compact that this effect would happen.”

    That surely that would depend on the level of communication within the Flood fleet. Somebody said something (or im making this up, i cant really tell any more) That individual Flood cells have a form of sentience, if that was the case then a single Flood organism could probably make its own miniature warp shadow.

    I feel like I have hijacked this match, i’m not even particularly interested in the outcome. I don’t really know anything about either side, and the only reason i am here is because Percy vs Link ended.

  39. pimpmage January 16, 2015 at 7:09 pm -      #339

    “That surely that would depend on the level of communication within the Flood fleet.”

    I have yet to ever hear of a flood fleet existing. Maybe they don’t even travel in fleets because they usually slipspace everywhere.

    “That individual Flood cells have a form of sentience, if that was the case then a single Flood organism could probably make its own miniature warp shadow.”

    No more than the standard tyranid troop would. Except wherever tyranids go, they go in the trillions.

  40. Tyran January 16, 2015 at 7:15 pm -      #340

    That individual Flood cells have a form of sentience.

    Not really, individual Flood cells work like neurons, so any Flood organism is essentially a big brain.

  41. GMoney January 16, 2015 at 7:31 pm -      #341

    “Feral Flood are not like feral Tyranids, the Flood is individually intelligent.”

    The flood are individually intelligent but only follow a feeding instinct. To get them to do more complex stuff they need a Gravemind. Same with the Tyranids, if they are out of the hive minds influence they still perform basic animal instincts but cannot plan out anything.

    “The difference is that the Warp is based on another universe, while Neural Physics are based in the material universe.”

    Actually, The Warp is a mirror of the Material Universe, not another dimension like Marvel/DCs alternate universes.

  42. pimpmage January 16, 2015 at 7:41 pm -      #342

    “Actually, The Warp is a mirror of the Material Universe, not another dimension like Marvel/DCs alternate universes.”

    I would say its both. It reflects the real world while being a different dimension.

  43. Tyran January 16, 2015 at 8:52 pm -      #343

    The flood are individually intelligent but only follow a feeding instinct. To get them to do more complex stuff they need a Gravemind. Same with the Tyranids, if they are out of the hive minds influence they still perform basic animal instincts but cannot plan out anything.

    It was Feral Flood which took a crashed Spirit dropship, repaired it, used it to take over a Covenant ship and tried to escape the solar system. Feral Flood is still intelligent, but it lacks the centralized Hive Mind of the more advanced stages.

  44. Neon Lord January 16, 2015 at 8:54 pm -      #344

    “Therefore, we assume they start, just like ever single other galactic level species fight, in the same galaxy, where slipspace and the warp both exist, and its full of Earth-like planets. ”

    Why should it be full of Earth-like planets? A neutral battlefield in my eyes for this match would be something realistic like our own galaxy. I.e, ridiculously small chance of finding a planet with life.

    The maximum efficiency thing is so that no one side is more badly gimped than the other by the environment, like putting a incarnate of fire in Antartica against an incarnate of ice. It does not mean that everyone gets a massive bucketload of free resources to use, like having a pair of vampires fight inside a blood bank.

    How come nobody has mentioned that the Shadow of the Warp also interferes with normal communications as well? Like electromagnetic waves which are quite firmly based in physics.

  45. pimpmage January 16, 2015 at 9:07 pm -      #345

    “Shadow of the Warp also interferes with normal communications as well?”

    I don’t remember this being a thing. I recall ultrasmurf ships in the omnibus strategically blowing a hole through to a hive ship. This would require cooperation and planning between ships. Which must have meant vox traffic is unimpeded.

  46. Tyran January 16, 2015 at 10:12 pm -      #346

    Neon Lord is right, Tyranids jam conventional communications, but I’m not sure if that is thanks to the Shadow in the Warp, or simply the Tyranids saturate the communications with noise.

  47. pimpmage January 16, 2015 at 10:29 pm -      #347

    They don’t jam conventional stuff, only psychic communications, as i posted before you…

  48. the_man_with The_Answers January 16, 2015 at 10:30 pm -      #348

    “Ok that actually makes sense. I am fine with that. But this life that inhabits the galaxy will not have tech to steal. That would just be beyond stupid.”

    You can’t have your cake and eat it too. If the Flood are utterly dependent on other races supplying them with technology, then there must be the races to do that in the neutral galaxy. If the Flood can make their own materials in a timely fashion, then you would be correct in that there wouldn’t have to be races with varying levels of technology.

    “Were those thrashers from halo 3? Were those the giant hunter flood variants?”

    Nope. Think Halo Wars.

    “YOU bought up the idea of equal numbers. and then I responded by giving a run down of what the absolute minimum size of the force would be for each IF that was the case, and what would probably happen in that scenario.”

    20 of each is extremely arbitrary form minimum. Something you imposed on the situation, not me.

    “Define incapacitated. From what you are telling me they seem to be operating at 100% efficiency, they dont seem particularly gimped as a race. or are you referring to military size/number of assets?”

    End of Halo 3 pretty much every KNOWN flood asset was destroyed. Currently ONE infection form is known to exist on the evacuated, FTL-less Spirit of Fire.

    “I like how you are now trying to debate how the flood’s psychic communication is not effected by the tyranids anti psychic communication field.”

    Prove that the Flood uses psychic communication.
    psychic powers as defined in W40K
    “powers from the dimensional realm known as the Immaterium or the Warp that underlies four-dimensional realspace and is the source of all psychic energy in the universe”
    warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Psyker

    “Elemental compatibility would like to have a word with you if you really believe that.”

    Show that Tyranid psychic disruption works on more than specifically warp related communications. Because otherwise your broadened application of elemental compatibility would mean the flood can “reality warp” Tyranid FTL to a complete halt over thee entire galaxy. Because when you broaden definitions like that shit flings both ways.
    -

  49. Tyran January 16, 2015 at 10:42 pm -      #349

    They don’t jam conventional stuff, only psychic communications, as i posted before you

    There is a novel, called Warrior Brood IIRC, where the Tyranids jam conventional communications. And I believe the Tyranids also jam conventional communications on the Shield of Baal campaign.

  50. the_man_with The_Answers January 16, 2015 at 10:43 pm -      #350

    “Sounds just like the warp. Its a natural part of the galaxy that is used to communicate. Bingo.”

    Wtf. How does that:
    “Neural physics was a Precursor concept which posited that the Mantle encompassed the entire universe, including living beings, energy and matter. The principles of neural physics also postulated that the entire universe was living, but in a way that was beyond the comprehension of biological organisms.[1]”
    Halo: Cryptum, page 103″

    Sound anything like this:
    “The Immaterium (also referred to as the Empyrean, the Aether, the Sea of Souls, the Realm of Chaos, Warpspace or most commonly, the Warp) is an alternate dimension of purely psychic energy that echoes and underlies the familiar four dimensions of the material universe.”
    warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Immaterium

    That is SOME fucking stretch

    “Yeah, but they are close enough for elemental comparability to apply, which then leads to the question, what would the shadow in the warp/Mantle actually do, to the Flood? Would they simply revert to a feral state without a guiding hand? Or are all of them intelligent or… what?”

    Did you even look at the definitions? The Warp is a wacky, specific dimension, while Neural Physics is an underlying fundamental of THIS dimension. It’s like saying the Shadow in the Warp would effect Newton’s Laws of motion. It’s ungodly stupid and a stretch beyond stretches.

    “The flood do not travel around the galaxy in fleets of ships that number in the millions. They would not be so compact that this effect would happen.”

    They did when they were fighting the Forerunners.

    “I have yet to ever hear of a flood fleet existing. Maybe they don’t even travel in fleets because they usually slipspace everywhere.”

    So “making shit up” is now acceptable. Ok.

    “Actually, The Warp is a mirror of the Material Universe, not another dimension”

    Too bothered to check the definition of something on your own side. Got it.
    -

  51. pimpmage January 16, 2015 at 11:32 pm -      #351

    “You can’t have your cake and eat it too. If the Flood are utterly dependent on other races supplying them with technology,”

    Thats ironic seeing as you got yourself living things to eat but not tech to steal. Not happening.

    “Prove that the Flood uses psychic communication.”

    You said it yourself. They use neural physics to communicate. Duh. Need I remind you of shit you have posted before? You are purposefully wasting my time.

    “psychic powers as defined in W40K”

    Ok, I get it, you can’t actually just be playing stupid like I thought you were. You legitimately know very little about 40k.

    “powers from the dimensional realm known as the Immaterium or the Warp that underlies four-dimensional realspace and is the source of all psychic energy in the universe””

    The tyranids use this as a sort of internet. Letting them all contact one another psychically. This doesn’t mean they have powers over creation. There are specific tyranid breeds with that ability.

    “Show that Tyranid psychic disruption works on more than specifically warp related communications.”

    Read post #349.

    “Because otherwise your broadened application of elemental compatibility would mean the flood can “reality warp” Tyranid FTL to a complete halt over thee entire galaxy. Because when you broaden definitions like that shit flings both ways.”

    That is not how elemental compatibility works and you know it. Why must you make me correct you on this? Each universe retains their own uniqueness while allowing their unique forces to interact with each other. This has NEVER meant each side gains access to the opponents unique forces.

    “Wtf. How does that:”
    –>”The principles of neural physics also postulated that the entire universe was living”

    “Sound anything like this:”
    –>”alternate dimension of purely psychic energy that echoes and underlies the familiar four dimensions of the material universe.”

    “That is SOME fucking stretch”

    No, this is extremely reasonable if you were the least bit rational in this debate. So of course you would have a problem with it.

    “Did you even look at the definitions? The Warp is a wacky, specific dimension, while Neural Physics is an underlying fundamental of THIS dimension.”

    Now you are really playing stupid, you have the definitions right in front of you when you posted this and you still somehow managed to completely misunderstand it? The warp is a chaotic MIRROR OF REALSPACE.

    “It’s like saying the Shadow in the Warp would effect Newton’s Laws of motion. It’s ungodly stupid and a stretch beyond stretches.”

    You do realise we are discussing FANTASY RIGHT NOW RIGHT? Of course you do. That must have been a joke, right?

    “They did when they were fighting the Forerunners.”

    They ‘did’? I am talking about space craft numbering in the millions carrying troops numbering in the trillions. Can you get some quotes for something near those numbers?

    “So “making shit up” is now acceptable. Ok.”

    How about you be a good boy and run along to disprove me.

  52. the_man_with The_Answers January 17, 2015 at 12:07 am -      #352

    “Thats ironic seeing as you got yourself living things to eat but not tech to steal. Not happening.”

    I got BOTH of them living things to eat, because the Tyranids need it too. If, like you are so intensely saying, the Flood are utterly dependent on the existence of outside technology, then by extension of BankGambling rules, that technology has to be present in some manner for the Flood to function at “maximum efficiency.”

    “Ok, I get it, you can’t actually just be playing stupid like I thought you were. You legitimately know very little about 40k.”

    I meant prove that neural physics is at all closely similar to that.

    “Read post #349.”

    A sentiment that you disagree with. Which is you now fully being a hypocrite on the matter. And the UNSC and Covenant are both capable of using the electromagnetic spectrum to block communications of such manner. Doesn’t seem to work on the Flood.

    “That is not how elemental compatibility works and you know it. Why must you make me correct you on this? Each universe retains their own uniqueness while allowing their unique forces to interact with each other. This has NEVER meant each side gains access to the opponents unique forces.”

    Through your broadened definition where “physical laws of the ‘real’ dimension” is equal to “completely different mirror dimension with its own special rules,” Then the Flood ability to jam/slow/halt slipspace FtL (read: different dimension with its own set of rules) should apply to Tyranid FTL (read: physical laws of the ‘real’ dimension).

    “No, this is extremely reasonable if you were the least bit rational in this debate. So of course you would have a problem with it”

    Explain to me how “physical laws (akin to that of gravity and what not)” is in any way related to something that functions off of an entirely different dimension? If you were comparing the Warp to slipspace you would have a case, but this is like saying since the Tyranids can block warp powers that they can also block gravity from happening. It’s that stupid.

    “Now you are really playing stupid, you have the definitions right in front of you when you posted this and you still somehow managed to completely misunderstand it? The warp is a chaotic MIRROR OF REALSPACE.”

    Yes, with a bunch of different bells and whistles. It is still an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT DIMENSION being compared to a SET OF PHYSICAL LAWS. They are not the same “element” to begin with.

    “You do realise we are discussing FANTASY RIGHT NOW RIGHT? Of course you do. That must have been a joke, right?”

    You not addressing the fact that a different dimension =/= a specific set of natural laws.

    “They ‘did’? I am talking about space craft numbering in the millions carrying troops numbering in the trillions. Can you get some quotes for something near those numbers?”

    It should be common sense. The Forerunners had millions of planets across the entire galaxy, with populations in the billions for those planets. They also had trillions of AIs and drones (That they could dedicate to single systems no less). and by the end of the Forerunner-Flood war, the Flood was in control of the vast majority of those assets, communicating with them all simultaneously. The Gravemind is just a localized representation of the distributed Flood intelligence. You could kill all the Flood down to a single spore, and if it regrew a Gravemind at some point, it would retain all of its past knowledge.

  53. pimpmage January 17, 2015 at 12:34 am -      #353

    “I got BOTH of them living things to eat, because the Tyranids need it too. If, like you are so intensely saying, the Flood are utterly dependent on the existence of outside technology, then by extension of BankGambling rules, that technology has to be present in some manner for the Flood to function at “maximum efficiency.”

    The tyranids DO NOT NEED LIVING THINGS TO EAT. They eat planets regardless of life on it. Also, by that same logic tyranids should all be equipped with good ftl drives so the flood wouldn’t steal any tech that makes this fight unfair. Amirite?

    “A sentiment that you disagree with. Which is you now fully being a hypocrite on the matter. And the UNSC and Covenant are both capable of using the electromagnetic spectrum to block communications of such manner. Doesn’t seem to work on the Flood.”

    Dude, seriously, you need to pay attention to what people are saying. You have like 1 second attention span. For the third fucking time, NEED I KEEP REMINDING YOU OF THINGS THAT WERE POSTED LIKE AN HOUR AGO? Tyranids block psychic communication. Post 349 shows they have also shown to be able to block more physical means of communication IN ADDITION TO THEIR ABILITY TO BLOCK PSYCHIC COMMUNICATION.

    “Through your broadened definition where “physical laws of the ‘real’ dimension” is equal to “completely different mirror dimension with its own special rules,” Then the Flood ability to jam/slow/halt slipspace FtL (read: different dimension with its own set of rules) should apply to Tyranid FTL (read: physical laws of the ‘real’ dimension).”

    No, it is not completely different. Quit downplaying LITERALLY EVERYTHING. This got old a few days ago already. The warp is an underlying universal force. Neural physics is also an underlying universal force. This is completely reasonable. Regardless of your stubborn naysaying attitude, this is happening whether you like it or not.

    “Explain to me how “physical laws (akin to that of gravity and what not)” is in any way related to something that functions off of an entirely different dimension? ”

    If you look in a mirror, do you see yourself? I already know the answer, no need to say anything. If you drop a bowling ball in front of your mirror does the ball in the reflection not act according to your actions? Can you look into the reflection and see the damage done to the floor? I hope you understand what a mirror is now. I might need to remind you here in a post or two. Mark my words.

    “If you were comparing the Warp to slipspace you would have a case, but this is like saying since the Tyranids can block warp powers that they can also block gravity from happening. It’s that stupid.”

    The tyranids block communication both physical and psychic by bombarding everything in an overwhelming amount of it’s own communication. Its essentially DDoSing shit. It does NOT however effect psychic manifestations of raw energies because that would be equivalent to blasting a radio at a sword. Swords don’t need to hear to cut you.

    “It is still an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT DIMENSION being compared to a SET OF PHYSICAL LAWS”

    The compatible relationship between the two is that they are primal. Primal means a natural force. Part of the universe itself. This is enough to enable the compatibility to exist.

    “It should be common sense. The Forerunners had millions of planets across the entire galaxy, with populations in the billions for those planets. They also had trillions of AIs and drones (That they could dedicate to single systems no less). and by the end of the Forerunner-Flood war, the Flood was in control of the vast majority of those assets, communicating with them all simultaneously. The Gravemind is just a localized representation of the distributed Flood intelligence. You could kill all the Flood down to a single spore, and if it regrew a Gravemind at some point, it would retain all of its past knowledge.”

    Those are all scattered across the galaxy. I am talking about specific extremely dense amounts of tyranids causing this blackout to parts of a galaxy.. I doubt the flood need to use the same tactics because they could be everywhere at once with minimal troops to have the same effect. The flood would never be so densely packed as to cause a blackout of their own.

  54. the_man_with The_Answers January 17, 2015 at 1:12 am -      #354

    “The tyranids DO NOT NEED LIVING THINGS TO EAT. They eat planets regardless of life on it. Also, by that same logic tyranids should all be equipped with good ftl drives so the flood wouldn’t steal any tech that makes this fight unfair. Amirite?”

    Better FTL drives are not necessary for the Tyranids to function. However, if you were right in that The Flood are utterly dependent on stolen technology to function, then it would have to be present somehow.

    Also, Tyranids clearly need biomass and not just other mined resources.

    “Dude, seriously, you need to pay attention to what people are saying. You have like 1 second attention span. For the third fucking time, NEED I KEEP REMINDING YOU OF THINGS THAT WERE POSTED LIKE AN HOUR AGO? Tyranids block psychic communication. Post 349 shows they have also shown to be able to block more physical means of communication IN ADDITION TO THEIR ABILITY TO BLOCK PSYCHIC COMMUNICATION.”

    And you, just before I brought the same thing up (without first reading Tyran’s post), disagreed with that sentiment. Tyran also said “IIRC” so a source was not fully given. Furthermore, electromagnetic communications jamming clearly doesn’t affect the Flood, seeing as both the UNSC and Covenant are capable of such things and it has never been shown to work.

    “No, it is not completely different. Quit downplaying LITERALLY EVERYTHING. This got old a few days ago already. The warp is an underlying universal force. Neural physics is also an underlying universal force. This is completely reasonable. Regardless of your stubborn naysaying attitude, this is happening whether you like it or not.”

    No, the warp is a different dimension. A mirror dimension, but a different dimension none the less. A separate realm with connections to the original, not an underlying force.

    “If you look in a mirror, do you see yourself? I already know the answer, no need to say anything. If you drop a bowling ball in front of your mirror does the ball in the reflection not act according to your actions? Can you look into the reflection and see the damage done to the floor? I hope you understand what a mirror is now. I might need to remind you here in a post or two. Mark my words.”

    A physical mirror is a lot different than a mirrored dimension. Things don’t happen perfectly mirrored in the Warp either. Additionally, Flood communication is not dependent on another dimension, which means an ability to block communications dependent on another dimension isn’t going to work. Tyranid warp shadowing could potentially interfere with UNSC/Forerunner slipspace communication systems, but not a communication system that works without a “dimensional middleman.” If the ability to disrupt communications was so far applicable into every type of non-alter-dimensional communication then you couldn’t even communicate via sound waves or any other communication system that the Tyranids may or may not even know of.

    “The tyranids block communication both physical and psychic by bombarding everything in an overwhelming amount of it’s own communication. Its essentially DDoSing shit.”

    Source.

    Also, The Flood are clearly capable of handling shitloads of information, seeing as they can stay in constant communication with themselves in trillions of “separate” forms across the galaxy both biological and technological.

    “The compatible relationship between the two is that they are primal. Primal means a natural force. Part of the universe itself. This is enough to enable the compatibility to exist.”

    That is so bullshit and you know it. Chemistry is “primal” as well. Does that mean that, because my neurons communicate through varying concentrations of sodium, potassium, chloride, and calcium ions that Tyranid “primal” disruption can cause them to stop communicating resulting in my swift death (And painless because they could no longer communicate pain)?

    And by extension of your “primal” thing, The Flood could use the same elemental compatibility interpretations that you are pushing to slow Tyranid FTL to a halt. I could almost copy-paste your arguments and replace certain words to do that.

    “Those are all scattered across the galaxy. I am talking about specific extremely dense amounts of tyranids causing this blackout to parts of a galaxy.. I doubt the flood need to use the same tactics because they could be everywhere at once with minimal troops to have the same effect. The flood would never be so densely packed as to cause a blackout of their own.”

    Forerunners have drone swarms numbering in the trillions upon trillions themselves. One particular one was a sphere of drones fully encompassing an entire star system to enforce a quarantine. Most of which the Flood had taken control of. That’s a fuck-ton of constant communication in a single location, and even the Forerunners could casually handle that.

    Of course, the Flood WERE causing slipspace blackouts, which affected Forerunner FTL movement and communications to an extreme degree…

  55. LadyRamkin January 17, 2015 at 6:17 am -      #355

    “20 of each is extremely arbitrary form minimum. Something you imposed on the situation, not me.”

    “20 was just a random number i plucked out of the air to demonstrate my point, For the absolute minimum amount of troops each, if one of them had 20 distinct individuals and that number was greater than the other team, then that would be the minimum.

    “Show that Tyranid psychic disruption works on more than specifically warp related communications. Because otherwise your broadened application of elemental compatibility would mean the flood can “reality warp” Tyranid FTL to a complete halt over thee entire galaxy. Because when you broaden definitions like that shit flings both ways.”

    …No, that’s not what that means at all, the elemental compatibility rule exists so that various powers from various universes can actually interact with each other, that is the whole point of it. It doesn’t suddenly grant combatants powers from the other universe.
    Example, Darkness, from kingdom hearts, and the Dark side of the force, from Star wars have some very similar properties and fulfil similar roles within their own universe as so elemental comparability would apply.

    which would mean, that say a Jedi or any force sensitive really, would be able to sense people that use KH Darkness. But that does not mean that those KH characters suddenly have midichlorians or can use force powers.

    “I got BOTH of them living things to eat, because the Tyranids need it too”

    No they don’t, They can eat the mineral out of a planet and make creatures out of that. Dont actually NEED to eat living things.

    “The compatible relationship between the two is that they are primal. Primal means a natural force. Part of the universe itself. This is enough to enable the compatibility to exist.”

    No the compatible relationship between the two is that they are psychic. The actual source of said ability is really irrelevant. Psychic powers between universes need to be able to interact as do magical powers, and physical laws. Otherwise debating is pointless. Specifics can be very important but we don’t really have any here.

    “However, if you were right in that The Flood are utterly dependent on stolen technology to function, then it would have to be present somehow.”

    I thought you were the one lobbying for them building stuff from scratch…. or was that someone else…

    “Also, Tyranids clearly need biomass and not just other mined resources.”

    They really don’t. when they consume living things they completely break it down to its base components all of which can be found in the ground/oceans.

  56. LadyRamkin January 17, 2015 at 8:44 am -      #356

    “end of Halo 3 pretty much every KNOWN flood asset was destroyed. Currently ONE infection form is known to exist on the evacuated, FTL-less Spirit of Fire.”

    I feel conflicted about this. The Flood race it’s self is exactly the same as it always is, its just lost a lot of its tech. Usually when a character loses some piece of equipment or ability current incarnation would prevent them from having it regardless of optimum efficiency. Whenever Deadpool has a match one of the first questions is whether or not he has his healing factor. Even though Giving it to him would let him operate at optimum efficiency it can still be denied by current incarnation. But then there is the fact that this is race vs race and not single combatants. So im not really sure how to proceed. Current incarnation flood are still just as infective and deadly as they always are so…. Maybe ADMIN could step in and say how “Battle incarnations” rule would work here.

  57. Tyran January 17, 2015 at 10:51 am -      #357

    They really don’t. when they consume living things they completely break it down to its base components all of which can be found in the ground/oceans.

    They Tyranids still need planets with a biosphere, that is supported by the fact that the Tyranids don’t eat any other type of planet, and if no one is found, they hibernate.

    I thought you were the one lobbying for them building stuff from scratch…. or was that someone else…

    They can build it from scratch, but the problem here is the time. Such process would take a lot of time. That’s why I believe the Flood will flee from the Tyranids, so it can have more time.

  58. Tyran January 17, 2015 at 11:01 am -      #358

    Sorry for the double post, but another thing: initial numbers.

    We have no idea of the size of the Tyranid race, we know of the current Hive Fleets in the Milky Way, and we know that there are many more. But how many more? we have no idea.

    And the Flood may have the same problem. While in the current Halo-verse Milky Way they are reduced to a infection form in the Spirit of Fire and to spores in the Forerunner installations, in has been suggested, by both the Forerunners and the Gravemind, that the Flood has consumed several galaxies. But of course we don’t know anything about these possible extra-galactic Flood, so debating them would be even more pointless than debating the unknown Tyranid extra-galactic numbers.

  59. Ragnorke January 17, 2015 at 11:05 am -      #359

    @Ramkin
    According to the rules page, current incarnation is the default unless the match rules specify otherwise.
    Universal battles (race vs race) sometimes use “composite incarnations”, but again that needs to be specified.

    If no certain time period or composite was mentioned before post #50, then it’s current incarnation, even if it’s not optimum.

  60. Tyran January 17, 2015 at 11:11 am -      #360

    I wouldn’t like composite vs composite, there would be little to debate.

  61. LadyRamkin January 17, 2015 at 11:19 am -      #361

    @Ragnorke
    Thank you for the clarification… but does this mean that this match is a single Flood infection form vs Hive fleet leviathan?

    “They Tyranids still need planets with a biosphere, that is supported by the fact that the Tyranids don’t eat any other type of planet, and if no one is found, they hibernate.”

    Is it confirmed that they don’t eat other types of planet or do we just have no examples of them doing it?

  62. Tyran January 17, 2015 at 11:22 am -      #362

    Is it confirmed that they don’t eat other types of planet or do we just have no examples of them doing it?

    We have examples of them going to hibernation because no planet with a biosphere was close. I have even heard about them starving, but I have yet to find a quote about that.

  63. the_man_with The_Answers January 17, 2015 at 10:47 pm -      #363

    “20 was just a random number i plucked out of the air to demonstrate my point, For the absolute minimum amount of troops each, if one of them had 20 distinct individuals and that number was greater than the other team, then that would be the minimum.”

    I meant that the overall designation of a “minimum” representation is very arbitrary no matter what. But I think we both agree that it is a non-point.

    “…No, that’s not what that means at all, the elemental compatibility rule exists so that various powers from various universes can actually interact with each other, that is the whole point of it. It doesn’t suddenly grant combatants powers from the other universe.
    Example, Darkness, from kingdom hearts, and the Dark side of the force, from Star wars have some very similar properties and fulfil similar roles within their own universe as so elemental comparability would apply.”

    And if that were the case was similar to this one, emphasis on if, then it wouldn’t merely be a one side street like Pimpmage is making it out to be. His application of the elemental compatibility rule would mean that underlying physics is equally compatible with unrelated dimensions. So if, again,emphasis on if, Pimpmage’s “version” of the rules were correct, then the Flood’s ability to slow and disrupt slipspace FTL would, through virtue of elemental compatibility, work in the same fundamental way against Tyranid FTL. Because FTL translates to other FTL apparently regardless of the operational method. Mind you, I don’t support that view point even though it would, for all intents and purposes, would completely halt Tyranid FTL (It slowed Forerunner speeds from seconds/minutes into hours/days, which would turn Tyranid years/decades into ~thousands of years of varying degree).

    “No they don’t, They can eat the mineral out of a planet and make creatures out of that. Dont actually NEED to eat living things.”

    Like Tyran stated, then why would they specifically target biomass-rich planets and ignore others? Targeting biomass rich planets, especially those with resistance, would be extremely inefficient. There are significantly fewer of them compared to rocky planets in general, they have to commit and potentially lose biomass to eliminate resistance, and the gain of existing biomass would only be an extremely small percentage of the total resources gained by harvesting a planet. I could go into a detailed summary of other uses for earth minerals/resources in biological production systems, but I don’t want to type a whole lot if it is just going to be an ignored side-point in the grand scheme.

    “No the compatible relationship between the two is that they are psychic. The actual source of said ability is really irrelevant. Psychic powers between universes need to be able to interact as do magical powers, and physical laws. Otherwise debating is pointless. Specifics can be very important but we don’t really have any here.”

    While your argument is much more sound than Pimpmage’s, to a great extent (so much so that I almost agree), you are leaving out one important factor. “Psychic” abilities are very specifically detailed in their function in WH40K. “Psychic” abilities in WH40K aren’t nearly as simple as “Psychic” abilities with a broad definition.They are specifically tied to the warp. So while their very physical effects could overlap in compatibility, for example psychic attacks counter attacks from The Force in a physical sense, abilities that rely on specific things shouldn’t necessarily be granted the same scope. The Tyranid’s blocking of Psychic communication is very particular in that it functions off the “Shadow in the Warp.” The Warp being an alternate dimension. It’s operating condition is that a presence in an alternate dimension disturbs/blocks communications through the dimension through proximity. So elemental compatibility would be geared towards something with a similar context. In this case it would looking at extra-dimensional communication systems. The “Shadow in the Warp” would, through elemental compatibility, be able to effect the slipspace communication used by The Covenant, The Forerunners, and Post-War UNSC, as you could just apply the “Shadow in the Warp” as a “Shadow in Slipspace,” and there would be no fundamental change in how the ability operates. If you just applied the “Shadow in the Warp” unilaterally to real-space based communications, you are not drawing a connection through two equal elements, you are fundamentally changing how one or both elements so that they match each other through broad definitions. It would like looking at the periodic table of elements and saying Chromium (III) ( +3 charge, ie Realspace communication) is going to function ionically the same as Zinc (+2 charge, IE Dimensional communication) with an Oxygen anion (-2 charge, IE psychic disruption) simply because both Chromium and Zinc are transition metals. If that makes sense.

    “I thought you were the one lobbying for them building stuff from scratch…. or was that someone else…”

    I am lobbying for that. But my intent with that line of argument is catching Pimpmage in a fit of his own hypocrisy. If he so adamantly believes that the Flood is utterly dependent on stolen technology to function, then by site rules the technology must be available to be stolen. But he is trying to say that there shouldn’t be any tech to steal because the Flood don’t have to have it. While arguing that Flood absolutely need it to function. In essence, he is trying to have his cake and eat it as well. Do you understand the issue at hand?

    “They really don’t. when they consume living things they completely break it down to its base components all of which can be found in the ground/oceans.”

    And your body breaks down food into its base components to function. But you can’t eat a piece of iron to fulfill your iron requirements, or get your daily sodium by ingesting straight, well, sodium or sodium hydroxide for that matter. I’m a geochemist who’s spent a considerable time studying Earth systems (including biological processes relating to the atmosphere and geology in general) and mineral chemistry, so this is a topic I’m essentially professionally trained for.

    “According to the rules page, current incarnation is the default unless the match rules specify otherwise.”

    *before incapacitation
    I would call being reduced to one known infection form incapacitated. Especially if Mass Effect is “incapacitated” at the end of Mass Effect 3 while still holding vastly more assets than the “absolute most current” Flood wold be.

  64. the_man_with The_Answers January 17, 2015 at 10:58 pm -      #364

    “Thank you for the clarification… but does this mean that this match is a single Flood infection form vs Hive fleet leviathan?”

    I’ve literally posted the Current Incarnation rule from the rule page twice now. And no, the Flood should be their most current form prior to being “incapacitated.” Which would be the Flood immediately before the end of Halo 3, or potentially the Flood about 50% through Halo 3 depending on your definition of “incapacitated.”

    I would say immediately prior to the end of Halo 3, because giving them functional High Charity would be too stupidly powerful, and the Flood are hardly incapacitated when given High Charity’s ruins, Installation 04B, and The Ark. All located within the neutral galaxy as opposed to outside of it like the Ark was built, because otherwise the Tyranids would be completely exempt from victory due to the field of battle as opposed to anything else.

  65. OberHerr January 17, 2015 at 11:10 pm -      #365

    Tyranids block warp based things by being such a massive presence in the warp, you can’t do anything.

    The Flood would function almost the same way if it had a presence. The Gravemind itself is made up of every single being its consumed.

  66. GMoney January 18, 2015 at 12:37 am -      #366

    “I would say immediately prior to the end of Halo 3, because giving them functional High Charity would be too stupidly powerful, and the Flood are hardly incapacitated when given High Charity’s ruins, Installation 04B, and The Ark. All located within the neutral galaxy as opposed to outside of it like the Ark was built, because otherwise the Tyranids would be completely exempt from victory due to the field of battle as opposed to anything else.”

    If this would be flood still on the Ark how are they going to leave it? High Charity was destroyed/severely damaged in the crash and using the Ring would be a massive gamble at best and suicide at worst. I’d say they should have High Charity.

  67. the_man_with The_Answers January 18, 2015 at 12:46 am -      #367

    “If this would be flood still on the Ark how are they going to leave it? High Charity was destroyed/severely damaged in the crash and using the Ring would be a massive gamble at best and suicide at worst. I’d say they should have High Charity.”

    You’re on the “Tyranid side” and vying for the option that will give the Flood the most advantage and I’m on the “Flood side” and vying for the option with less advantage. Something is so tragically wrong about that.

  68. LadyRamkin January 18, 2015 at 6:15 am -      #368

    The “Shadow in the Warp” would, through elemental compatibility, be able to effect the slipspace communication used by The Covenant,

    See, im not sure it would, I, personally, have never seen the shadow in the warp block non-psychic communication warp or no warp. Someone earlier said that they could but no evidence was really posted.

    I see where your coming from but there is still one question that needs to be answered before i agree with you. Does the shadow in the warp block “local” Psychic communication? So if there were two people in the same room could they send psychic messages to each other while under the effects of the shadow? If not then that is proof, that the shadow can effect purely real space transmissions.

    Do you understand the issue at hand?

    I believe I do, and i think you are right.

    I’ve literally posted the Current Incarnation rule from the rule page twice now. And no, the Flood should be their most current form prior to being “incapacitated.”

    And this is why i was conflicted. Because the Flood as a race are not really incapacitated. I mean, if at the end of Halo 3, They had invented a serum that prevented the Flood from infecting lifeforms or prevent them forming a grave mind and it was distributed to EVERY Flood. Then i would consider them incapacitated but having their numbers reduced and assets lost, doesn’t really seem like incapacitation to me more like a downgrade is strength, especially considering how infective flood forms are. I point to examples in other matches where current incarnation overrides loss of technology, ability or both. Even though giving them the lost tech/ability would count as optimality efficient.

  69. the_man_with The_Answers January 18, 2015 at 12:25 pm -      #369

    “See, im not sure it would, I, personally, have never seen the shadow in the warp block non-psychic communication warp or no warp. Someone earlier said that they could but no evidence was really posted.”

    You’re missing the point. Elemental compatibility would allow them to, as both psychic communication and slipspace communication are “extra-dimensional” forms of communication.

    “So if there were two people in the same room could they send psychic messages to each other while under the effects of the shadow? ”

    I don’t know, that seems pretty specific of a scenario. You’d have to ask someone a little more familiar with the topic.

    ” If not then that is proof, that the shadow can effect purely real space transmissions.”

    How would blocking essentially face-to-face psychic communication prove that? All it would prove is that the Shadow of the Warp doesn’t work on that scale.

    “And this is why i was conflicted. Because the Flood as a race are not really incapacitated. I mean, if at the end of Halo 3, They had invented a serum that prevented the Flood from infecting lifeforms or prevent them forming a grave mind and it was distributed to EVERY Flood. Then i would consider them incapacitated but having their numbers reduced and assets lost, doesn’t really seem like incapacitation to me more like a downgrade is strength, especially considering how infective flood forms are. I point to examples in other matches where current incarnation overrides loss of technology, ability or both. Even though giving them the lost tech/ability would count as optimality efficient.”

    Except in Halo vs Mass Effect, Mass Effect is being argued from a pre-ending standpoint, otherwise they’d be “incapacitated.” And they have A LOT more forces and assets than the Flood would here.

  70. LadyRamkin January 18, 2015 at 12:46 pm -      #370

    “you’re missing the point. Elemental compatibility would allow them to, as both psychic communication and slipspace communication are “extra-dimensional” forms of communication.”

    The fact that they are extra dimensional is not important, We are looking at the type of communication not the medium by witch it travels.

    A psychic signal is a specific thing and differers from other forms of communication. The shadow in the warp specifically shuts down psychic signal’s. What is important is if it can only shut down psychic signals that travel through the warp (which are used for 40k Long range communication) or if it can also shut down psychic signals that solely go through real space and do not go through the warp.

    If, as in my example, two individuals can communicate psychicly through real space while under the effects of the shadow in the warp, then i don’t believe the Flood will be effected, since their psychic connection also only traverses real space.

    “Except in Halo vs Mass Effect”

    Wasn’t even aware that that was a match. But then there is also the possibility that THEY might be doing it wrong. I mean, all I can really do is give you my interpretation of the rules whether or not they are accurate is a different matter entirely.

    “I don’t know, that seems pretty specific of a scenario. You’d have to ask someone a little more familiar with the topic.”

    Okay. Does anybody know if the shadow in the warp block’s solely real space psychic communication???

  71. pimpmage January 18, 2015 at 1:33 pm -      #371

    I can only hypothesize that the shadow work like Signal jamming. The tryanids are essentially drowning out psychic ‘waves’ with their own. Billions of tryanids communicating to eachother continuously makes your messages get lost in their shadow.

  72. the_man_with The_Answers January 18, 2015 at 5:11 pm -      #372

    “The fact that they are extra dimensional is not important, We are looking at the type of communication not the medium by witch it travels.”

    The medium by which information is carried is the defining trait that separates one form of it from the other. Communication by voice is carried through sound waves interacting with the air. Your everyday short range wireless is generally achieved by communication via infrared waves. Televisions, radio communications, and other longer range communications are achieved by, well, radio waves (Radio waves is rather broad in and of itself though, lots of different specific wave lengths can be used). The presence of sound waves won’t affect the usage of infrared waves, which will not affect radio waves. They all function on entirely different “mediums” of travel. So the medium is everything when it comes to trying to jam communications, and the compatibility should reflect that facet as opposed to “it blocks communication.”

    “A psychic signal is a specific thing and differers from other forms of communication. The shadow in the warp specifically shuts down psychic signal’s. What is important is if it can only shut down psychic signals that travel through the warp (which are used for 40k Long range communication) or if it can also shut down psychic signals that solely go through real space and do not go through the warp.”

    Doesn’t, by nature of psychic abilities in WH40K, even short range communication have a necessity for the warp? Which makes it a question of scale.

    “If, as in my example, two individuals can communicate psychicly through real space while under the effects of the shadow in the warp, then i don’t believe the Flood will be effected, since their psychic connection also only traverses real space.”

    Do you have proof that the connection does not go through the warp?

    “Wasn’t even aware that that was a match.”

    It’s only the match with the single most posts in it on the entire site, by over 1,000 posts.

    “But then there is also the possibility that THEY might be doing it wrong. I mean, all I can really do is give you my interpretation of the rules whether or not they are accurate is a different matter entirely.”

    That match has been going on since 2009 with 6,617 posts in it. Current Incarnation issues have been brought up in that match for a variety of different things as new games have come out for both. When the ending for Mass Effect 3 came out, there were those who were quick at the trigger and claimed that, since nearly all of their assets were destroyed, regardless of ending, that they had stood no chance against Halo. But there were those who stated that using the post ending not only creates an ambiguous setting where we know little of the existing assets, but they were essentially incapacitated in that their entire transportation network was shut down and the vast majority of their fleets destroyed. Both of which apply to the current situation of the Flood, but to a much greater degree. So it was agreed, based on the rules, that Mass Effect should be debated from the time just before the final battle, where we both know a good idea of their forces and they retain a good portion of their assets compared to the very end of things.

    “I can only hypothesize that the shadow work like Signal jamming. The tryanids are essentially drowning out psychic ‘waves’ with their own. Billions of tryanids communicating to eachother continuously makes your messages get lost in their shadow*.”

    *in the warp. It is specifically their massive warp presence that drowns out the warp related communication in proximity. Which, comparing “elements” would apply to other alter-dimensionally related communications such as slipspace. But it wouldn’t apply unilaterally to a fundamentally different medium of communication.

    Furthermore, the Flood clearly can handle that amount of “noise” seeing as they are in contact with every form, likely even every cell constantly, as well as all subsumed AIs/drones and the like.

    On a related matter, Neural Physics sounds much more similar to quantum entanglement than it does anything else. Quantum entanglement, of course, being completely immune to being jammed from excess communications.

  73. LadyRamkin January 18, 2015 at 6:56 pm -      #373

    “The medium by which information is carried is the defining trait that separates one form of it from the other”

    I was referring to the medium that the information travels through, as in real space,the warp, slip space, etc. Not anything to do with the wave, ray, signal, whatever. A radio wave is still a radio wave, in the warp or not in the warp. The shadow in the warp has only ever been stated to block psychic…. signals? (random word is random) And not radio, infra-red, whatever. So even though the covenant send signals through the slipspace i don’t believe that the shadow in the warp would effect those since they are not psychic in origin or nature.

    “Doesn’t, by nature of psychic abilities in WH40K, even short range communication have a necessity for the warp?”

    I am not the right person to ask, but the way i understand it (Understand is a massive overstatement) That psychic powers are dervied from the warp, but don’t necessarily have to be used through it. Psykers in 40k can use psychic abilities that emanate from themselves and dont just appear out of the warp.

    To summarise what i am saying
    -Psychic powers ARE derived from the warp
    -Psychic powers can be manifest PURELY in real space
    -This is only as far as i “understand” im not calling this fact.

    “Which makes it a question of scale.”

    Okay, forget the room, In Warhammer 40k, can purely real space psychic signals be sent between individuals that are both under the effects of the shadow in the warp. Regardless of geographic location?

    The answer to that question will determine whom I side with on this particular issue.

    “Do you have proof that the connection does not go through the warp?”

    None, whatsoever. But as I have said that is how I “understand” it to happen based on observing other psychic powers in effect, but I’ll be quite happy for somebody to correct me.

    “It’s only the match with the single most posts in it on the entire site, by over 1,000 posts.”

    I only found out Ebola was a thing yesterday, and now apparently its not a thing, but it was, and people were freaking out…. I’m not very good at… informationing, or using real words.

    “So it was agreed”

    1. Battle Scenarios Reign Supreme
    All debating rules in BankGambling are subject to be altered or otherwise ignored in the battle’s scenario. Should the scenario not make any exception, the rest of the items on this list stand as default rules.

    Battle Scenarios that are not clear, or have obviated crucial elements, must be brought to the attention of; A) Admin; B) the battle’s poster; C) the battle’s creator. Any scenario to be altered must be approved by Admin, or any party appointed by him, to be made official. That said, debates may continue without an official determination made if all sides agree upon the disputed terms, but any outcome from these may be rendered null by an official ruling at a later time.

    They have the right to do that in the rules assuming that everyone in the thread agrees to override the battle incarnations rule or one of the above mentioned steps in.

    Considering the general atmosphere here , getting a unanimous vote to over turn the Battle incarnations rule (more specifically current incarnation) probably inst going to happen.

    “On a related matter, Neural Physics sounds much more similar to quantum entanglement”

    …wut?

  74. LadyRamkin January 18, 2015 at 7:02 pm -      #374

    ”’Sup”’

  75. the_man_with The_Answers January 18, 2015 at 8:40 pm -      #375

    “I was referring to the medium that the information travels through, as in real space,the warp, slip space, etc. Not anything to do with the wave, ray, signal, whatever. A radio wave is still a radio wave, in the warp or not in the warp. The shadow in the warp has only ever been stated to block psychic…. signals? (random word is random) And not radio, infra-red, whatever. So even though the covenant send signals through the slipspace i don’t believe that the shadow in the warp would effect those since they are not psychic in origin or nature.”

    That’s where elemental compatibility comes in. If different communications were roads, the information on them would be the people. The people are in cars, which would be the method of transit for the information. Different specific types of cars travel on different roads, having different roads for each type of car. To jam up the road you have lots of cars on them slowing it down or stopping it with a crash. Both psychic and slipspace cars would, without elemental compatibility, drive on separate roads. The closest comparison to them isn’t their type of car, but instead the road they travel on. So by the elemental compatibility rule, the roads would merge, and the shadow in the warp essentially serves as a big pile-up of cars. Meanwhile, Flood communications are not related in either the model of the car or the type of road.

    “Okay, forget the room, In Warhammer 40k, can purely real space psychic signals be sent between individuals that are both under the effects of the shadow in the warp. Regardless of geographic location?”

    As Pimpmage has said, fleets can still communicate locally within the presence of Tyranid fleets. So I’d say yes.

    “I only found out Ebola was a thing yesterday,”

    lol. Probably better that way.

    “They have the right to do that in the rules assuming that everyone in the thread agrees to override the battle incarnations rule or one of the above mentioned steps in.”

    Except it was agreed in favor of the battle incarnation rule. As Mass Effect was deemed incapacitated enough to disqualify their absolute most current incarnation.

    “…wut?”

    About the connection between quantum entanglement and neural physics, or just quantum entanglement in general.

  76. pimpmage January 18, 2015 at 9:04 pm -      #376

    “As Pimpmage has said, fleets can still communicate locally within the presence of Tyranid fleets. So I’d say yes.”

    This was with radio waves, not psychic signals. Ships can communicate with each other in real space without using a psyker. I also remember reading that an inquisitor sent messages to every planet in a certain part of the galaxy to see how far the tyranid fleets have pushed in. The planets that didn’t respond were most likely being under the effect of the shadow so they couldn’t receive any incoming messages.

    “About the connection between quantum entanglement and neural physics, or just quantum entanglement in general.”

    If you mean only like QE because its basically using the universe itself to communicate, yes. But the brains of flood cannot have been entangled whatsoever seeing as the grave minds in control of the flood may have never had physical contact with the individual flood ever.

  77. the_man_with The_Answers January 18, 2015 at 9:19 pm -      #377

    “This was with radio waves, not psychic signals. Ships can communicate with each other in real space without using a psyker.”

    Then why are we trying to apply The Shadow in the Warp’s effects unilaterally to things that wouldn’t even “enter the fray” so to speak?

    “If you mean only like QE because its basically using the universe itself to communicate, yes. But the brains of flood cannot have been entangled whatsoever seeing as the grave minds in control of the flood may have never had physical contact with the individual flood ever.”

    It’s one big entanglement. Flood can only ever be created from other Flood material, meaning that entanglement to the cell that created a newer cell is still going to be entangled to the whole. Like a bunch of strings with different ends but all tied together in one spot or another and drawn tight. Pulling any string is going to create an immediate response in any of the other strings. If you tie a new string onto even just one of the other strings and have it be drawn tight, pulling it will also affect all the others. If that makes sense.

    That principle works perfectly well seeing as any original Flood Cell can, eventually, reform a Gravemind with its entire previous knowledge. As pulling the string instantly translates movement (IE information) to all other strings. It is also an extremely closed network and would require an demonstrated ability to “entangle” yourself into it, which even then it could be a challenge to create an equivalent of jamming the network.
    -

  78. LadyRamkin January 19, 2015 at 4:38 am -      #378

    “If different communications were roads, the information on them would be the people. The people are in cars, which would be the method of transit for the information. Different specific types of cars travel on different roads, having different roads for each type of car. To jam up the road you have lots of cars on them slowing it down or stopping it with a crash. Both psychic and slipspace cars would, without elemental compatibility, drive on separate roads. The closest comparison to them isn’t their type of car, but instead the road they travel on. So by the elemental compatibility rule, the roads would merge, and the shadow in the warp essentially serves as a big pile-up of cars. Meanwhile, Flood communications are not related in either the model of the car or the type of road.”

    Hmm
    Okay,
    If different communications were types of cars, the information in them would be the people. The people are in cars, which would be the method of transit for the information. The roads are the medium by which cars travel and in this case different roads are different dimensions, real -space, the warp, and slip space. No matter what road you are on the car remains the same.

    Both psychic and slipspace cars would, without elemental compatibility, drive on separate roads mainly because those roads are in different universes, the reason that elemental compatibility applies is because they are essentially two versions of the same road.

    The shadow in the warp would be sort of like a police blockade stopping specifically the psychic cars and letting other get on with their day.

    So by the elemental compatibility rule, the roads would merge, and the shadow in the warp essentially serves as one large police blockade.

    Now what is important is if the police have jurisdiction over more than just that one road, Since Flood cars are using the real space road.

    “As Mass Effect was deemed incapacitated enough to disqualify their absolute most current incarnation”

    Unanimously by debaters.

    “Then why are we trying to apply The Shadow in the Warp’s effects unilaterally to things that wouldn’t even “enter the fray” so to speak?”

    Im not, im trying to determine if The shadow in the warp can block real space psychic communication…. If the Police blockade has jurisdiction over the real space road…. OOOHHH, CAN THE SHADOW IN THE WARP BLOCK WAAAARRGH ENERGY??? That would be a perfect example.

    “That is a very graphic analogy which aids understanding wonderfully while being, strictly speaking, wrong in every possible way,” – Ponder Stibbons

  79. LadyRamkin January 19, 2015 at 4:44 am -      #379

    I would really appreciate it if the edit timer stopped ticking WHILE you were editing.

    all I was going to add was that elemental compatibility also applies to the cars.

  80. pimpmage January 19, 2015 at 7:39 am -      #380

    “OOOHHH, CAN THE SHADOW IN THE WARP BLOCK WAAAARRGH ENERGY???”

    This is completely different than psychic communication though.a waaargh is active use of psychic energy to affect physical things. Like a fireball. I mentioned this earlier, that would be like DDoSing a sword. A sword does not need to receive messages to function. Also, in one of my ultrasmurf books, there was a veteran librarian that could still effect tyranid troops with his powers.

  81. LadyRamkin January 19, 2015 at 7:48 am -      #381

    “This is completely different than psychic communication though.a waaargh is active use of psychic energy to affect physical things”

    Waaargh psychically connect Orks whom are miles and miles away from each other. in to one big…network like thing.

    Its kind of like a miniature hive mind, which supports my miniature hypothesis that the hive mind is Gork or Mork and they are using the Tyranids to create endless war.

    “DDoSing”

    I have no idea what that means… sorry

    “A sword does not need to receive messages to function”

    Well, for a sword to work it has to be wielded, and to be wielded a brain needs to send signals, so by proxy…

  82. pimpmage January 19, 2015 at 8:11 am -      #382

    “Waaargh psychically connect Orks whom are miles and miles away from each other. in to one big…network like thing.”

    That has nothing to do with communication though.

    “Its kind of like a miniature hive mind, which supports my miniature hypothesis that the hive mind is Gork or Mork and they are using the Tyranids to create endless war.”

    The orks don’t have a hive mind. Every single orc has it’s own personality and thoughts. It can choose to defy and challenge it’s leaders if it felt particularly brave.

    “I have no idea what that means… sorry”

    If millions of people suddenly visited BankGambling, the site would go down for a few days because it was not made to support such a load of people here. You can forcefully overload websites certain ways. The tyranids overload all forms of psychic communication by drowning out everything else. Essentially using a ‘Distributed Denial of Service’ attack, or DDoS.

    “Well, for a sword to work it has to be wielded, and to be wielded a brain needs to send signals, so by proxy…”

    The orks do not have a hive mind. They can exist without any forms of communication. They are swords that you cannot stop by yelling words at it.. And by words I mean communication blockers.

  83. LadyRamkin January 19, 2015 at 8:16 am -      #383

    “That has nothing to do with communication though”

    Maybe not but a connection still occurs. If you are going to send information you have to connect first right?

    Can the shadow in the warp prevent that connection?

    “The orks don’t have a hive mind. Every single orc has it’s own personality and thoughts. It can choose to defy and challenge it’s leaders if it felt particularly brave.”

    I wasn’t referring to the hive mind as an overriding consciousness but simply as a network. I understand fully that Orks are individuals.

  84. the_man_with The_Answers January 19, 2015 at 9:39 am -      #384

    If the Flood are entangled, a DDoSing tactic isn’t going to work. If pysichic communication is only elementally compatible with other dimensional communication, it won’t work on the Flood. Even if the other two were false, the Flood can easily hold constant communication across all forms, potentially down to the cellular level, so something tells me DDoS tactics. wouldn’t work regardless.

  85. LadyRamkin January 19, 2015 at 9:58 am -      #385

    Could you please elaborate on this whole quantum entangled thing. How you came to this conclusion and what it would mean for this debate and what it actually does mean. Because the way quantum entanglement is being described here is not how I am used to talking about it. So I am going to operate on the assumption that my definition is wrong
    .

  86. pimpmage January 19, 2015 at 10:18 am -      #386

    Nowhere has it ever said that the flood are quantum entangled. It’s just a real world science guess as to how the flood communicate. You cannot just say they do and then treat everything as if they actually do that. There is no proof whatsoever. Also, why do you keep insisting the orcs have psychic communication going on?

  87. pimpmage January 19, 2015 at 10:38 am -      #387

    Think of it like this, you are in a big room with a million screaming people. You need to receive orders from a radio. You can’t hear that radio because all of the screaming people right? Ok, now there is a person with an axe coming at you. You are trying to say the millions of screaming people will stop that guy with an ax in the same fashion that the screaming people disable you from being able to hear that radio? Psychic powers are like that axe. Communication plays no part in it’s ability to slice you up, do why do you insist on it being that way?

  88. LadyRamkin January 19, 2015 at 11:41 am -      #388

    “Also, why do you keep insisting the orcs have psychic communication going on?”

    There are 2 possibilities here, either I am really REALLY bad at conveying what I mean or people are just not reading what im saying correctly.

    I am not saying that ork’s have any form of psychic communication whatsoever. But a waaargh is a psychic event that links all orks together. They are connected psychically even if they don’t manifest any sort of actual power that connection still exists.

    It is the only example, that I can think of, of purely real space psychic activity in 40k. I am not saying they communicate just that they are linked.

    Does the shadow in the warp block a WAAARGH?

    “Think of it like this, you are in a big room with a million screaming people. You need to receive orders from a radio. You can’t hear that radio because all of the screaming people right? Ok, now there is a person with an axe coming at you. You are trying to say the millions of screaming people will stop that guy with an ax in the same fashion that the screaming people disable you from being able to hear that radio? Psychic powers are like that axe. Communication plays no part in it’s ability to slice you up, do why do you insist on it being that way?”

    All psychic powers are inherently psychic be it communication or…. axing. Comparing them to a voice and then an axe is ridiculous. If psychic powers were a voice, then communication would be akin to talking and more physical act would be shouting or singing. They all stem from the same place.

    The shadow in the warp does effect more tangible things like blowing up tanks. The person that attempts to use the psychic power becomes more susceptible to the perils of the warp.

  89. pimpmage January 19, 2015 at 12:08 pm -      #389

    No, I have absolutely no clue why you insist that using the warp to communicate and using the warp to turn someone inside out are exactly the same. Come can be ddosed, the other cannot. Reread my metaphor a dozen more times if you must. It is quite apt. I can quote the use of psychic powers against tryanids when I get home. Trust me, I know what I am talking about…

  90. LadyRamkin January 19, 2015 at 12:50 pm -      #390

    Okay, everything is now lost in metaphors and interpretation if no one has any objections (not giving you the chance to object) then i am gonna take this back to basics

    First thing you absolutly must do in any match
    – Apply elemental compatibility to the two combatants physical laws –
    Without that step nothing can proceed.

    So now we check the battle scenario…. there is nothing in the battle scenario. therefore we go to rule defaults.

    Which means current incarnation. A single Flood VS Hive Fleet leviathan.

    …. That is not fair…. never mind it can be fixed in the first 50 posts…. I was not… Never mind if we all unanimously agree we can give the Flood proper representation so no biggie. moving on.

    Combatant 1: The Flood
    Highly infections, biologically advanced organisms that can steal and upgrade pretty much anything. The are all directed by a Central consciousness called a Gravmind. The Gravmind can commune with all Flood without technology and call also send messages directly into the brains of non flood organisms….

    That sounds magicy… but Halo is an inherantly Sci-fi universe so magic is out, and we really dont have any more information on the topic (Except something about quantum entanglement, but we haven’t really delved into that) Therefore we go to the Sci-fi standard for this kind of thing, psychicnessessesesesesses WHATEVER.

    So, Halo has psychic powers does 40k have psychic powers? Yes? YES IT DOES, therefore: – Apply elemental compatibility to the combatants psychic powers – Since if we dont we are really not able to continue in any meaningful way

    Combatant 2: The Tyranid’s
    They are a biologically advanced race of planet eating aliens that consists of many, many, MANY different species some of which are space ships. They are all controlled by a single overriding consciousness called the Hive mind that communes with all of its creatures psychic-ly (this is confirmed). The Sheer amount of connections causes the shadow in the warp.

    Wait… what’s a warp???

    The warp is another dimension that mirror’s the 40k universe’s main dimension. It contains reflections of souls, the chaos gods, and is the source of almost all psychic powers in 40k. It is also the main method of FTL Travel in the 40k universe. Howver using can cause some temporal distortion

    HOLD UP, that sound kinda like slip space, which is another dimension or set of dimensions in the Halo universe primarily used for FTL travel…. doesn’t do any of that other weird shit though….

    Well they are quite similar i suppose…. Elemental compatibility COULD apply but really only if it is unanimously accepted (which for us it does seem to be, this is our shakiest use of elemental compatibility in this match though)

    So, back to the shadow in the warp, its is an effect that cause psychic entities to freak out blocks long range communication in 40k.
    Long range communication in 40k, by sheer necessity, is psychic signals sent through the warp.

    The shadow does not effect combat abilities but it does make it very dangerous for the person using them. It doesn’t seem to effect non psychic communications that originate AND end in real space.

    Well, since the Flood don’t use the warp for their psychic communication, long or short range, would the shadow effect them?

    Are there any examples of psychic powers not working while the USER is in the warp while under the effects of the shadow of the warp. Thus proving that the shadow blocks ALL psychic abilities that occur in the warp but doesn’t effect real space psychic powers.
    OR
    Is there an example of psychic communication, that travels purely through real space, that can occur while under the effect of the shadow in the warp. Thus proving whether or not ALL psychic communication is blocked regardless of dimension but leaves more combat orientated abilities intact.

    I have no idea, you two are supposedly the experts on either side i am really just a mediator, and im not even very good at that.

  91. pimpmage January 19, 2015 at 1:11 pm -      #391

    Those are two extremely specific scenarios. And by extremely, I mean impossible. People can use warp powers while ftl traveling thorough the warp. They probably could even with the shadow near then. But by warp powers I mean physical manifestations and not communication. The second scenario would require way too much specifics that no author world detail to that extreme.

  92. LadyRamkin January 19, 2015 at 3:31 pm -      #392

    “People can use warp powers while ftl traveling thorough the warp. They probably could even with the shadow near then”

    … that is a baseless assumption.

    “The second scenario would require way too much specifics that no author world detail to that extreme.”
    ~
    “The Tyranid’s were advancing too fast, the devastator’s wouldn’t be in position with the heavy bolter’s in time. Tarkus turned to the librarian “Send a message to the assault squads, advance and hold the forward position” The librarian nodded and closed his eyes sending out a psychic pulse to the librarian accompanying the assault commander”
    ~
    There, I did it, in less than 50 words, and my writing is atrocious, impossible my arse.

  93. pimpmage January 19, 2015 at 3:57 pm -      #393

    “… that is a baseless assumption.”

    Now you are starting to piss me off. Do you even know what a navigator is?

    Also, are you saying you wrote that yourself? Why would they have a librarian acting as a vox caster when space marines all have vox systems built into their armor?

  94. LadyRamkin January 19, 2015 at 4:10 pm -      #394

    “Now you are starting to piss me off. Do you even know what a navigator is?”

    Somebody that move’s on, over, or through (water, air, or land) in a ship or aircraft, Though I assume you are referring to 40k so i think that is a psychic person? locates….uhhhh astropaths? psychic beacons somthing… somthing… Basically the answer is no.

    But since you said
    “Those are two extremely specific scenarios. And by extremely, I mean impossible”

    I was under the assumption that you didn’t have any proof (more specifically that no proof existed) that they could do anything while under the shadow of the warp. which would make this thing you said
    “They probably could even with the shadow near then”
    A baseless assumption.

    “are you saying you wrote that yourself?”

    yeah, took like a minute.

    “Why would they have a librarian acting as a vox caster when space marines all have vox systems built into their armor?”

    Because I know almost nothing about space marines, I played DoW2, Space hulk and Space marine. None of those were particularly Lore heavy, and even if they were I played them like 6 years ago. (That is a completely arbitrary and made up time, what i mean is it was a long time ago and i don’t remember anything)

    I was simply pointing out that it was not only possible to write, but also very easy.

  95. pimpmage January 19, 2015 at 4:22 pm -      #395

    It didn’t include specifics about how the message sending happened through the real world and not the warp. That is one of the specifics I was talking about. Also, you can fight tyranids without a hive fleet nearby. The two are not mutually exclusive.

    Anyway, a 40k navigator is a psyker that guides ships around in the warp with psychic powers. Guiding them to tyranids hive fleet attacks too.

  96. LadyRamkin January 19, 2015 at 4:29 pm -      #396

    “It didn’t include specifics about how the message sending happened through the real world and not the warp. That is one of the specifics I was talking about. Also, you can fight tyranids without a hive fleet nearby. The two are not mutually exclusive.”

    “The Tyranid hive fleet was advancing too fast, the devastator’s wouldn’t be in position with the heavy bolter’s in time. Tarkus turned to the librarian “Send a message to the assault squads, advance and hold the forward position” The librarian nodded and closed his eyes sending out a psychic pulse to the librarian accompanying the assault commander”

    Better? The hive fleet being there intrinsically implies that the shadow in the warp is in effect and the psychic message still went through, we know for a FACT that long range, warp based psychic communication are blocked, if this went through then the only option is that it went via real space. If i can do it, however poorly, an actual writer will be able to. Even if it is only through inference.

    “Guiding them to tyranids hive fleet attacks too”

    Quote of that please? Just so that all the evidence is in order and nobody can cry fowl later.

  97. pimpmage January 19, 2015 at 4:35 pm -      #397

    “The Tyranid hive fleet was advancing too fast, the devastator’s wouldn’t be in position with the heavy bolter’s in time.”

    I’m sorry, but this made me giggle, of devastators were needed to be in position to shoot at hive ship, something is seriously wrong lol.

    “The only option is that it went via real space”

    I know of no such real canon occasions where something like that happens.

    “Quote of that please? Just so that all the evidence is in order and nobody can cry fowl later.”

    Nowhere as it ever been said ever, that the shadow stops anything other than psychic communication. Who would cry foil for something that was never canon to begin with? I need not waste the time until someone actually has a problem with it first. Then I would tell them they are just being silly.

  98. LadyRamkin January 19, 2015 at 7:29 pm -      #398

    “I’m sorry, but this made me giggle, of devastators were needed to be in position to shoot at hive ship, something is seriously wrong lol”

    Look, all i know is that Avitus could probably shoot down a hive ship. Also, now you are just being picky, ground forces are part of the hive fleet.

    “I know of no such real canon occasions where something like that happens.”

    “Nowhere as it ever been said ever, that the shadow stops anything other than psychic communication.”

    Which means that we have no evidence, either way, that the shadow in the warp would effect the Flood.

  99. pimpmage January 19, 2015 at 8:33 pm -      #399

    “Look, all i know is that Avitus could probably shoot down a hive ship.”

    Sorry, I just imagined a continent sized tyranid ship landing on the planet specifically to fight a squad of space marines.

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