Tyranids Vs The Flood

Tyranids (Warhammer 40K) Vs The Flood (Halo)

Even if the numbers were equal, I just don’t see how the Flood could win this fight. The Tyranids are simply too evolved and they would be able to adapt to get the victory.

Can the Flood pull out an upset victory?

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402 Comments on "Tyranids Vs The Flood"

  1. Tyran January 13, 2015 at 3:36 pm -      #201

    I think you have no clue what you are talking about, and you are probably sourcing your own opinion for that.


    If you are going to be like that…

    As the daemonic horde ran amok through Rossov, their momentum faltered. Where they
    had expected cowering mortals upon which to feast, they found only a charnel house of
    piled corpses that writhed with gnawing Rippers. The buildings were tumbled ruins, and
    the city was smothered by a blanket of muffling psionic static that caused the Daemons to
    flicker and fade. Casting their otherworldly perceptions across Shadowbrink, the Daemon
    lords’ confusion turned to outrage at the seething tide of aliens that choked the surface
    and skies. These creatures had no souls to corrupt, manipulate or twist. They could no
    more be led into damnation than a lump of rock.


    Many Tyranids are also Psykers. They do not draw power from the Warp in
    any fathomable way, but rather they harness a fraction of the Hive Mind’s
    gestalt will.


    Here, quotes from the 6th edition codex.

    I am assuming they have multitudes of flood forms in their current roster. Even with a standing army of flood available and a hive mind to command them, I don’t think they would be able to mine resources to create a ship from nothing.

    1. Dig a hole on the ground.
    2. Subtract the metals and other resources needed.
    3. Process the gathered resources.
    4. Profit.

    It’s not hard, just time consuming.

  2. pimpmage January 13, 2015 at 3:47 pm -      #202

    “Many Tyranids are also Psykers. They do not draw power from the Warp in
    any fathomable way, but rather they harness a fraction of the Hive Mind’s
    gestalt will.”

    Ok, this is what I wanted to see. Thank you. I really don’t see how that works out though. I mean, It clearly allows them to use psyker powers without being psykers? That makes no sense mechanically in the 40k verse. But I guess it works somehow.

    “1. Dig a hole on the ground.
    2. Subtract the metals and other resources needed.
    3. Process the gathered resources.
    4. Profit.
    It’s not hard, just time consuming.”

    This is not in their MO. They have never shown any sort of self made machinery. EVERY single instance of them using tech, they repairs from previously parts that were created by others. They repair with knowledge of repairing, but they do not create. If there was some source of them creating a ship completely by themselves with no other ships or parts to pull from, I would give up and say flood win here.

  3. Tyran January 13, 2015 at 3:54 pm -      #203

    This is not in their MO. They have never shown any sort of self made machinery. EVERY single instance of them using tech, they repairs from previously parts that were created by others. They repair with knowledge of repairing, but they do not create. If there was some source of them creating a ship completely by themselves with no other ships or parts to pull from, I would give up and say flood win here.

    It may not be their MO, but they aren’t stupid, and they don’t have nothing better to do in such planet.

  4. OberHerr January 13, 2015 at 3:59 pm -      #204

    “Ok, this is what I wanted to see. Thank you. I really don’t see how that works out though. I mean, It clearly allows them to use psyker powers without being psykers? That makes no sense mechanically in the 40k verse. But I guess it works somehow.”

    Same as the Orks harness the power of the WWWAAGGGHH!

    Its like how Space Wolves Shamans claim to harness Fenris’ power. Except they actually do. The Hivemind/WAAGGGH are their own presence outside of Chaos.

  5. pimpmage January 13, 2015 at 4:22 pm -      #205

    “Same as the Orks harness the power of the WWWAAGGGHH!”

    I thought I remember seeing a quote, an inquisitor was mentioning how the entire orc race were psykers.

    “It may not be their MO, but they aren’t stupid, and they don’t have nothing better to do in such planet.”

    Man, there is a thing, I forgot what it is called. There is a measurement in years how long it would take for a person to develop tools that are capable of digging to metal, purifying it and shaping it from nothing. Something like a simple steel hammer would require years of work to create from scratch. You would have to somehow locate metal ore and dig to it with tools themselves you would need to make beforehand. Many common items you would see in a hardware store would take decades to manufacture. Does anyone know what I am talking about? Anyway, it is still not their MO. They would probably go into a dormant state until tyranids arrive.

  6. the_man_with The_Answers January 13, 2015 at 6:42 pm -      #206

    “Tyranid psykers have souls, thats how they are able to use powers. If a single tyranid has a soul, why not them all? You have absolutely nothing to back that up.”

    Because different types of Tyranids are about as similarly related as I am to a mouse species-wise (More than you’d think actually, 95% or so). They vary wildly from type to type, so I don’t see why I should believe they all share a psychic soul trait when only extremely rare individuals actually have it.

    “I keep seeing people post this. From what I have seen, they only cover the surface in stupid goop. They do not drink oceans and remove atmospheres. They do not take over planets the same way. You are basically saying it takes the flood a day to take a sip of water and the tyranids take a month to drink a gallon of water. Then you mean to say Flood have better feats because of that single sip of water?”

    You’re forgetting that the Tyranids only start doing that AFTER they’ve crushed the resistance on the planet, which takes nearly two months. The Flood take over the entire planet in the time it takes Tyranids to spread 200km from “ground zero.”

    “Ok, can they do it from scratch? Like an empty lifeless forest planet. Can they build a space ship from literally scratch?”

    Twice now IamTaco has provided a source detailing how the Precursors have gone from simple lifeforms to advanced intergalactic races over and over. The Flood are, in essence, a really pissed off Precursor. Of course, I doubt “Feral Flood” would construct things on their own, but a Gravemind or Keymind resulting from total ecological control likely would. The Gravemind’s plan towards the end of Halo 3 was essentially to build a bunch of plague ships with “precursor FTL” then send them into the Milky Way while he can just sit perfectly safe from any Halo Array effects.

    “The biggest reason I know the flood are not suffering from the post final battle ”

    What the hell is this “post final battle” you keep talking about?

    “343 will bring them back a final time where they will be finally defeated once and for all. I will make you eat your goddam hat.”

    What 343i may or may not have planned for years down the road doesn’t have a bearing on the debate at hand now.

    “All living things in 40k have souls.”

    Every little cell on every organism has its own independent soul? I don’t think so. And fundamentally, Tyranid forms are merely the “cells” of a larger functioning whole.

    “The Flood seems to need sentient life to evolve, so the Flood would be limited to feral state in this world. But it will still eat the forest, biomass is biomass.”

    Didn’t stop a Gravemind from being formed on 05

    ” I mean, It clearly allows them to use psyker powers without being psykers? That makes no sense mechanically in the 40k verse. But I guess it works somehow.”

    Like I said before, each individual has no soul, but the Hivemind as a whole does. Which is why the total presence of the Tyranids does have a considerable effect on the warp, but individuals on their own are essentially apart from it.
    -

  7. pimpmage January 13, 2015 at 8:02 pm -      #207

    “Because different types of Tyranids are about as similarly related as I am to a mouse species-wise (More than you’d think actually, 95% or so). They vary wildly from type to type, so I don’t see why I should believe they all share a psychic soul trait when only extremely rare individuals actually have it.”

    Psykers can be bred. This is fact. Navigator and astropath houses have dynasties of bred psykers. Of all other races, tyranids should be equally capable of this. Seeing as the psykers they spawn always have a particular design, you don’t see random tyranids with psyker genes.

    “You’re forgetting that the Tyranids only start doing that AFTER they’ve crushed the resistance on the planet, which takes nearly two months. The Flood take over the entire planet in the time it takes Tyranids to spread 200km from “ground zero.”

    They still do nothing more than coat the planet in goop. That is nothing like what tyranids do.

    “The Flood are, in essence, a really pissed off Precursor.”

    That is most definitely a fallacy of association.

    “The Gravemind’s plan towards the end of Halo 3 was essentially to build a bunch of plague ships with “precursor FTL””

    Do you mean with stolen tech and ship parts? Or something they made themselves with nothing they scrounged?

    “What the hell is this “post final battle” you keep talking about?”

    Post final battle is the gimped snake in a wheel chair you were talking about. Literally, post final battle. The flood are not gimped in a wheel chair. I still have no clue how the tyranids will beat them even if they outnumber them 1 billion billion to one flood spore. I sincerely hope they would adapt or absorb it into their breeding. Though if every last flood spore was eaten by tyranids, wouldn that be a win? Even if they mutate, its possible they would now be commanded by the hive mind? So much theoretical… ugh.

    “What 343i may or may not have planned for years down the road doesn’t have a bearing on the debate at hand now.”

    I was simply saying they were never really defeated. Everyone just escaped the grasp of the flood. The flood still exist in uncountable numbers all across the galaxy; seeing as they took over a galactic race.

    “Every little cell on every organism has its own independent soul? I don’t think so. And fundamentally, Tyranid forms are merely the “cells” of a larger functioning whole.”

    This is the 40k verse we are talking about. Orcs have souls, eldar have souls, humans have souls, animals have souls, tau have souls. Everyone has souls. It would be hard to argue most other fictional universes had souls, but the 40k verse, its fact.

  8. Friendlysociopath January 13, 2015 at 8:45 pm -      #208

    This is the 40k verse we are talking about. Orcs have souls, eldar have souls, humans have souls, animals have souls, tau have souls. Everyone has souls.

    Tyran posted a quote in post #201 that explicitly said the Tyranids didn’t have souls.

  9. pimpmage January 13, 2015 at 8:54 pm -      #209

    “Tyran posted a quote in post #201 that explicitly said the Tyranids didn’t have souls.”

    That is pretty conflicting with the fact that not every tyranid is able to use psychic powers vs one specific bred form that is able to. I remember that, we are just arguing useless stuff atm.

  10. Tyran January 13, 2015 at 9:09 pm -      #210

    This is not in their MO. They have never shown any sort of self made machinery. EVERY single instance of them using tech, they repairs from previously parts that were created by others. They repair with knowledge of repairing, but they do not create. If there was some source of them creating a ship completely by themselves with no other ships or parts to pull from, I would give up and say flood win here.

    Well, in this case the Flood has access practically all the biosphere biomass, and is far stronger than a human. But yeah it is going to take them a quite long time, maybe even centuries. I don’t know really.

  11. pimpmage January 13, 2015 at 9:16 pm -      #211

    If both sides have all their current biomass, the tyranids probably outnumber the flood billions of billions to one. They have scoured several galaxies of their biomass.

    And given optimal efficiency rules, all that biomass would reside within this single neutral galaxy.

  12. Neon Lord January 13, 2015 at 9:20 pm -      #212

    “That is pretty conflicting with the fact that not every tyranid is able to use psychic powers vs one specific bred form that is able to. I remember that, we are just arguing useless stuff atm”

    Tyranid powers are NOT psychic powers. They are Hive Mind powers. It’s just simpler in-game to represent them with the same rules.

    “, animals have souls, ”

    I do believe only sentient beings have souls. Everything else has a reflection in the warp.

    “You’re forgetting that the Tyranids only start doing that AFTER they’ve crushed the resistance on the planet, which takes nearly two months. The Flood take over the entire planet in the time it takes Tyranids to spread 200km from “ground zero.””

    Keep in mind that the actual hive fleet did not arrive till day 50. The previous events were pre-invasion scouting.

    It then takes a single month for them to digest and BRING everything to space, which is by no means a small endeavour. Enough material to actually noticeably reduce the planet’s diameter.

    Are we debating assuming Tyranids and Flood cannot infect/adapt to each other now? I think that make more sense then going around in circles in the case of that particular point.

  13. pimpmage January 13, 2015 at 9:36 pm -      #213

    “I do believe only sentient beings have souls. Everything else has a reflection in the warp.”

    I recall a demon talking to logar about sacrificing things to chaos. First humans sacrificed animals, then they sacrificed humans. Animal’s souls held little value to chaos compared to human souls. The same way human souls hold no value to space marine souls. They are more important in the galaxy, and that reflects on how chaos accepts the offerings. Animals had souls that were sacrificed early on.

  14. Tyran January 13, 2015 at 10:49 pm -      #214

    I do believe only sentient beings have souls. Everything else has a reflection in the warp.

    Animals are sentient beings.

  15. the_man_with The_Answers January 14, 2015 at 1:44 am -      #215

    ” Of all other races, tyranids should be equally capable of this. Seeing as the psykers they spawn always have a particular design, you don’t see random tyranids with psyker genes”

    Which was exactly my point…

    “They still do nothing more than coat the planet in goop. That is nothing like what tyranids do.”

    Dodging the actual point in contention. It doesn’t matter WHAT they do with the planet once they have it in control, it’s the fact that the Flood can take over a planet insanely faster than the Tyranids.
    “Day 9″ and the Tyranids will only have spread 200km from ground zero and begin to threaten planetary defenses. In half that time the Flood will have fully taken over the planet. If they’re slow about it and facing heavy resistance.

    “That is most definitely a fallacy of association.”

    How so? The Flood’s origin story is that a Precursor got pissed off that the Forerunners wiped one of their current evolutions out, so he turned himself into sentient lifeless dust that ended up being the Flood. The Flood literally are a form of a Precursor.

    “Do you mean with stolen tech and ship parts? Or something they made themselves with nothing they scrounged?”

    The structure of High Charity was destroyed both by the initial landing and by Chief blowing it up on top of the Gravemind (in which the Gravemind survived the 350km station blowing up while inside of it, casually actually) and the Gravemind’s plans seemed unchanged.

    ” The flood are not gimped in a wheel chair. ”

    You’re right, they’re reduced down to one actual known infection form, with any and all other numbers being conjecture. That would be like debating Mass Effect from the standpoint of a destroyed relay network and a crushed total fleet/infrastructure.

    “Though if every last flood spore was eaten by tyranids, wouldn that be a win?”

    It would give them a win in a timeframe which would be acceptable for a win on BankGambling, but over the course of centuries the “sentient molecules” would be hard at work subtly altering Tyranid DNA to their liking.

    “Keep in mind that the actual hive fleet did not arrive till day 50. The previous events were pre-invasion scouting.”

    Which the Flood still accomplish their insane planetary takeover times with only a few crashed ships. In 30 minutes max, the Flood had spread to a ~900km^2 area minimum, from a single crashed ship. That’s a lot faster than 9 days to reach 200km no matter what way you slice it. Flood’s lack of mineral/resource collection on a similar timescale is irrelevant to the fact that their “War machine” operates more or less without it. The Flood don’t NEED to spend a month harvesting resources. They get everything they need from the first week.
    -

  16. LadyRamkin January 14, 2015 at 6:26 am -      #216

    For the first 49 days the Tyranids are not actively attempting to take over the planet. They are just there to undermine any defenders, On an undefended planet the process starts at day 50. It then takes them about a month to be finished with the planet, which is when they turn it in to a barren lifeless rock. But well before that point they have already covered the entire planet. In that one month they:
    Cover the entire planet in spores partially breaking down organic/inorganic material for consumption.

    Go over the entire planet and physically consume ALL organic material

    Grow capillary tubes that reach into low orbit that transport material to the ships and also break ALL the minerals in the ground and transport those up.

    Drink the atmosphere and then subsequently the oceans and any other body of water.

    They do ALOT in just that one month.

    Though I have never really been sure how they get the capillary towers off of the planet.

  17. pimpmage January 14, 2015 at 7:51 am -      #217

    “Dodging the actual point in contention. It doesn’t matter WHAT they do with the planet once they have it in control, it’s the fact that the Flood can take over a planet insanely faster than the Tyranids.”

    No, I was not dodging. You are the second person in this debate talking to me. You are responding to my answers to the another person’s points and telling me I am dodging your points? What? So far the point was who could do MORE with a planet with an allotted time. Now YOU change it to be just controlling it? The tyranids would be controlling it long before they start breaking everything down. So why would you reference the times it would take to break down a planet with tyranids if you are only interested in controlling it. Make up your mind dude.

    “How so? The Flood’s origin story is that a Precursor got pissed off that the Forerunners wiped one of their current evolutions out, so he turned himself into sentient lifeless dust that ended up being the Flood. The Flood literally are a form of a Precursor.”

    I am not going to debate this with you, you are telling me flood retain characteristics they have never shown from millennia past while also in a completely different race and form? No.

    “The structure of High Charity was destroyed both by the initial landing and by Chief blowing it up on top of the Gravemind and the Gravemind’s plans seemed unchanged.”

    What is telling you that the grave mind ‘seemed’ to still have unchanged plans? How are you interpreting it’s intentions?


    “(in which the Gravemind survived the 350km station blowing up while inside of it, casually actually)”

    There are many grave minds across the galaxy. How do you know it survived that?

    “that would be like debating Mass Effect from the standpoint of a destroyed relay network and a crushed total fleet/infrastructure.”

    Again I reference the bulldog vs star destroyer debate. Do not make matches where the sides are not balanced enough for a fairer debate. Just show me the flood can make ships themselves and ftl with it. We can end it here and now.

    “Factpile, but over the course of centuries the “sentient molecules” would be hard at work subtly altering Tyranid DNA to their liking.”

    This is what I am interested in. If flood material actually gets consumed, it doesn’t change anyone immediately? That sounds like a perfect plus for the tyranids. They eat up everything as is their nature.

    “The Flood don’t NEED to spend a month harvesting resources. They get everything they need from the first week.”

    Here we go. One of these things^ is not like the other!

  18. Neon Lord January 14, 2015 at 8:54 am -      #218

    “Though I have never really been sure how they get the capillary towers off of the planet”

    They use giant space tentacles which reach from their ship in orbit to the ground to suck material up. 100% serious; there are pics even.

  19. IamTaco January 14, 2015 at 10:01 am -      #219

    ‘Keep in mind that the actual hive fleet did not arrive till day 50. The previous events were pre-invasion scouting.

    It then takes a single month for them to digest and BRING everything to space, which is by no means a small endeavour. Enough material to actually noticeably reduce the planet’s diameter.’

    Actually that nerfs the tryanids alot. The whole strength of the flood was that even a single flood spore was a danger. A handful of flood forms, even when facing heavy resistance could take over UNSC earth in a couple of hours. Just a couple of flood forms… The tryanids on the other hand have to bring along their entire fleet and have it parked over the planet while they harvest it. Leaving them very vulnerable. The flood by the virtue by their FTL and method of infection can exploit a lot more infection vectors and experience exceptional growth. While the nids can only blunder about in a straight line.

    ‘“I keep seeing people post this. From what I have seen, they only cover the surface in stupid goop. They do not drink oceans and remove atmospheres. They do not take over planets the same way. You are basically saying it takes the flood a day to take a sip of water and the tyranids take a month to drink a gallon of water. Then you mean to say Flood have better feats because of that single sip of water?”’

    So? Why are you even comparing this? Does it matter what the flood do to the planet as compared to the tryanids? The flood also do something weird to the planets that they take over. Turing them into planet sized graveminds that can use nerual physics. The flood can’t do bioegnnering as well as the nids, they don’t need to turn the planet into a barren wasteland using only their squishy flood parts anyway. Didn’t you see the quote where a handful of Huragok manage to build a advanced slipspace drives barehanded without using any special materials? Just think of what the flood can do with the biosphere of an entire planet. And once they get forerunner infrastructure going, they can use their automated factories and such to overwhlem the tryanids ships anyway. Tryanids ships aren’t at all impressive to the forerunner and precursor ships. So I guess a better saying is that while the tryanids can drink a whole galleon of water, the flood can use a tiny slip of water and perform a hydrogen-hydrogen fusion with it. Smaller scale but much more impressive.

    ‘That is most definitely a fallacy of association.’

    Literally stated by numerous sources that the flood are really just the new forms that the precursors have taken.

    Does anybody not understand this? While the tryanids can basically suck away the entire’s planet’s biosphere away in a couple months, it takes an entire fleet to do this, and this only increases their fleet size and strength. The flood on the other hand can use the entire planet’s biosphere to form a sort of flood factory world where they can build basic tools that leads to more advanced tools that leads to even more advanced tools. Just like every civilization ever. Eventually they are going to get FTL ships that are going to allow them to infest a lot and I mean alot alot more worlds then the tryanids ever could.

    And eventually the flood are going to get to forerunner level tech where it doesn’t how fast or whatever the flood cover the surface of a planet with since they can just a forerunner level automated factories to break apart entire planets for building material. Think it like this, the tryanids are constantly gaining more men, they are adding millions of soldiers, all armed with spears and clubs to their army at a rate that the flood can’t hope to match early. The flood start with small army, just armed with their fist and with no amour to speak of. But the flood can advance at a rapid rate, they can start producing guns and tanks then jets then spacecraft while the tryanids are mostly stuck with guys with spears and swords.

  20. Tyran January 14, 2015 at 10:05 am -      #220

    There are many grave minds across the galaxy. How do you know it survived that?

    There is only one Gravemind. It is confusing, there were many graveminds, but the leader of the Flood is called the Gravemind, also known as the Primordial (or plenty of other names) and he is a Precursor.

    But what the_man_with The_Answers failed to mention is that the Precursors, including the Gravemind, are independent of their physical forms. They are unkillable as long as they can rebuild their bodies.

    I don’t know if the Gravemind physically survived the explosion, but it was definitely building a new body on the Halo.

  21. Tyran January 14, 2015 at 10:14 am -      #221

    What? Tyranids aren’t armed with spears and clubs.

    As far as the whole production debate. The Flood need minimal inversion for great gains. The Tyranids need a far greater inversion, but they get far greater gains.

    Essentially, the Flood spreads faster, but the Tyranids get more for each planet.

  22. IamTaco January 14, 2015 at 10:22 am -      #222

    ‘What? Tyranids aren’t armed with spears and clubs.’

    It’s a analogy.

  23. pimpmage January 14, 2015 at 11:05 am -      #223

    I am getting sick of this taco. You are selectively ignoring parts of this debate and you ignore the fact that the flood do not create anything. This undermInes your entire chain of posts. I am at work right now so I don’t have time to politely quote your posts and say no to everything.

    And that’analogy’ is ignorant downplay. Standard tryanid troops could wipe the board of any and all flood combat forms quite easily.

    Oh and the tyranids still outnumber flood potentially billions to one with their multiple galaxies worth of biomass.

  24. IamTaco January 14, 2015 at 11:37 am -      #224

    ‘I am getting sick of this taco. You are selectively ignoring parts of this debate and you ignore the fact that the flood do not create anything. This undermInes your entire chain of posts. I am at work right now so I don’t have time to politely quote your posts and say no to everything.’

    Precursor era flood, created hundred million kilometer strands of solar system busting indestructible material, technological marvels that rival the technological achievements of the motherfucking culture. Also created the domain, humanity and the forerunners. Also stated to have devolved themselves many times to the stone age and evolve back to their former galaxy moving glory.

    Forerunner era flood, managed to mindrape tons of forerunner A.I and take control of tons of forerunner assets including automated factories, millions of worlds and piloted and even upgraded forerunner ships. Also took control of said multi-million kilometer star roads that could alter physics over 2/3 of the galaxy. We never actually see the flood making ships but that may be because the flood are in possession of tons of automated forerunner factories. The point is that the flood mainly made use of their technological prowess here.

    Current era flood. Despite being desperately short on time and resources, the flood have piloted enemy starships, altered them to have much much better FTL, mind raped even more A.I and can operate forerunner technology really well. Note: the flood at this point of time are severely lacking in biomass and time, being forced to run around trying to avoid be destroyed by the halos. Not really a good time to start mining and refining operations.

    www.halowaypoint.com/en-us/universe/species/flood

    Some quotes.

    ‘With no remaining local hosts, entry into the coordinated stage is assured while simultaneously becoming a self-damning factor. The lack of viable “food” means that the Flood’s ability to perpetuate their various forms independently has come to an end. With the conversion of the environment and the existence of a centralized intelligence, the Flood can now spontaneously generate new pure forms as well as pure infection forms. The later transpires only if a resurfacing of uninfected sentience occurs. Decoupled from the disadvantages of the host species, the distribution of Flood at this stage is vast and nearly impossible to effectively catalog, particularly since many can spontaneously change into another form at any given time.’

    The flood can use pure biomass to change their form to whatever suits them the best.

    ‘After a Gravemind has been fully established, the local Flood infestation will make efforts to leverage any technology and knowledge available to leave their current domain in search of others to infect. This is referred to as the interstellar stage and is only superseded by the Transgalactic stage, when the Flood collective is unified and large enough to move from one galaxy to the next. Effectively, this can only occur when thousands of individual, interstellar stage collectives have uniformly coalesced, spiraling toward the galaxy’s center in a harmonized pattern that ensures no population centers go uninfected.’

    Oh look.

  25. pimpmage January 14, 2015 at 11:47 am -      #225

    ‘efforts to leverage any technology and knowledge available to leave their current domain”

    Oh look another quote that confirms exactly what I have been saying for like a week now. Leverage means take or find with force. Not make.

  26. LadyRamkin January 14, 2015 at 11:55 am -      #226

    “it takes an entire fleet to do this, and this only increases their fleet size and strength.”

    Not even close to an entire fleet, not even close to a tendril of an entire fleet, not even close to a tendril of a tendril of an entire fleet. I a single tendril of one of the hive fleets spans hundreds of solar systems. And there are 3? current major hive fleets, and loads of smaller ones. And its not like the Tyranid’s can only take one planet at a time. It’s possible that by the time the Flood develop space techno;pgy there wont be any non Tyranid biomass left for them to get their… tentacles on.

    tyranids get more per planet than the flood do what they do with it is what matters.

    Usually The Tyranid’s would incorporate any useful DNA they encounter into their armies. Zoanthroaps are made from Eldar DNA, Warriors are space marine , and biovores are Ork (at least that’s what i was lead to believe.

    Unfortunately this is a neutral universe so there wont really be any new DNA for them to absorb.

    My only experience with Halo is the first 20 minuets of the first one, Halo wars and ODST so could somebody post a actual quote of flood making things on a planet that only has organic matter on it.

  27. IamTaco January 14, 2015 at 12:03 pm -      #227

    I am getting sick of this pimpmage. You are selectively ignoring parts of this debate and you ignore the fact that the flood have in fact created multiple hundred million kilometer long strands of solar busting material . This undermines your entire chain of posts. I am laughing at you right now so I don’t have time to quote your posts and say no to everything.

    You show that you’re just ignoring everything, even direct quotes. I already presented my evidence and all you can do is plug your hands into your ears and ignore it. I won’t be wasting my time with you any longer.

    ‘Leverage means take or find with force. Not make.’

    ‘influence or power used to achieve a desired result’

    Yeah, like taking their host species automated factories or ore processor or whatever to help them advance technologically instead of starting from zero and trying to dig ore of the ground with their bare hands/tentacles.

  28. pimpmage January 14, 2015 at 12:20 pm -      #228

    “fact created multiple hundred million kilometer long strands of solar busting material ”

    This literally means less than nothing without any context. From which you provided nothing. Even with context that sentence doesn’t seem to actually mean anything. It’s nonsensical. And I am guessing when our if you decide to tell us more about it, it will fall in line with the fact that the flood don’t make anything themselves.

  29. the_man_with The_Answers January 14, 2015 at 2:19 pm -      #229

    “No, I was not dodging. You are the second person in this debate talking to me. You are responding to my answers to the another person’s points and telling me I am dodging your points? What?”

    I came in refuting the idea that it even mattered WHAT the Tyranids did with the planet, inserting that the time it takes to take control of the planet is vastly more important than what happens afterwards. Furthermore, I responded to ONE of your responses to Tyran. The rest of my responses where in response to your responses to me. Response response response, because clearly that word wasn’t said enough

    “The tyranids would be controlling it long before they start breaking everything down. So why would you reference the times it would take to break down a planet with tyranids if you are only interested in controlling it. Make up your mind dude.”

    I’ve been talking about “control time” since my very first remark on the subject.

    To bring something to light, AFTER nearly 2 months, the Tyranids THEN begin to process all the biomass. Something that, alone, takes them ANOTHER month. The Flood do that within the week. THEN the Tyranids suck up the atmosphere, which brings the ocean along with it thanks to the evaporation from lack of pressure. Flood complete up to Tyranid planetary cycle “Day 80″ within the first week. Resource collection afterwards is a function of need for the Tyranids, not the Flood, and comparing that specific part of the cycle is irrelevant.

    “They do ALOT in just that one month.”

    Except it isn’t just one month. It’s essentially 2 months of “scouting,” 1 month of biomass consumption, and about another month of atmospheric collection. Which is still abysmally slower than the speed at which the Flood operate.

    “I am not going to debate this with you, you are telling me flood retain characteristics they have never shown from millennia past while also in a completely different race and form? No.”

    That’s not what I’m telling you at all. We see the “modern” Flood for a few days/weeks in the games. In that time we learn of the Flood, at a “basic” state, is quickly repairing captured vessels and upgrading others with mind-bogglingly fast FTL, FTL derived from their Precursor knowledge. Read again: Their Precursor knowledge.

    “We are the Flood. There is no difference. Until all space and time are rolled up and life is crushed in the folds… no end to grief, war or pain. In a hundred and one thousand centuries… unity again, and wisdom. Until then – sweetness.”
    —The Primordial speaking to the IsoDidact.

    The Primordial is a Precursor. You can plug your ears and deny what has been put in front of you if you want. Doesn’t change the reality of things.

    “What is telling you that the grave mind ‘seemed’ to still have unchanged plans? How are you interpreting it’s intentions?”

    Gravemind talking to Chief and Arbiter after High Charity blew up:
    “Did you think me defeated?”
    As he proceeds to land Flood dispersal pods hundreds, if not thousands of kilometers away from his location.
    What, exactly, would be his plan otherwise if he was expecting victory from his unreachable location at The Ark? Sitting around twiddling his tentacles? He KNEW High Charity wasn’t going fly again, but he obviously had a plan to send forces back into the Milky Way.

    “There are many grave minds across the galaxy. How do you know it survived that?”

    Because he TALKS to you literally minutes after you blow it up.

    “Again I reference the bulldog vs star destroyer debate.”

    Your missing the point so hard I’d almost say you were trying. Bulldog, even at his utter prime, could not beat the Deathstar. We don’t grant him cosmic powers because HE NEVER HAD THEM. Just like how we don’t debate Mass Effect from the post-ending future because A) It is 95% conjecture and B) They are crippled beyond belief, we shouldn’t debate The Flood from the “post-ending” future, because A)It is 95% conjecture and B) They are crippled beyond repair. Instead, we take Mass Effect just BEFORE the ending, giving them the resources we KNOW they HAD. Similarly, we should take the Flood just prior to the ending and give them the resources we KNOW they HAD. YOU are the only one giving the Flood stuff we don’t know if they even have. I’m vying for giving the Flood what we KNOW they had in the most recent capacity.

    “This is what I am interested in. If flood material actually gets consumed, it doesn’t change anyone immediately? That sounds like a perfect plus for the tyranids. They eat up everything as is their nature.”

    Intact/Living Flood Super Cells infect extremely rapidly. It’s that, even if you kill them and break them down, due to what I can only assume is neural physics hackery, even the basic chemical components are still infectious on the long term, intelligently altering DNA to their liking over generations.

    Listen. We have PROVED that the Flood ARE, in fact, at least one Precursor. We have also PROVED that Precursors have ascended, on their own, through the technological and evolutionary tree many times. We’ve shown how they can massively improve the functionality of existing infrastructure through the addition of their own resources (If I upgrade parts on my car, those upgrades also had to be PRODUCED, they didn’t just come into existence). I’ve shown that, even knowing that he’d lose his FTL capability, the Gravemind still was planning to assault the Milky Way from millions of trillions of light years away.
    Fuck, the FIRST EVER (as far as in-universe history goes) encounter with Flood/Flood dust was when ships not owned by any existing faction appeared in the galaxy and crash landed. Where do you suppose they got those if nobody else made them?

    But by all means, just keep plugging your ears and refusing evidence.

  30. LadyRamkin January 14, 2015 at 3:02 pm -      #230

    “Except it isn’t just one month. It’s essentially 2 months of “scouting,” 1 month of biomass consumption, and about another month of atmospheric collection. Which is still abysmally slower than the speed at which the Flood operate.”

    The first 50 days only apply to worlds that have defenders, since this is a neutral universe there wont be any therefore you have to look at their invasion scale starting in the middle where it then takes them about a month to have scoured the entire planet of biomass and minerals, and then there is an unspecified amount of time for them to drain the atmosphere/oceans.

    “(If I upgrade parts on my car, those upgrades also had to be PRODUCED, they didn’t just come into existence).”

    Except it has been posted on here multiple times that the…. hurgok? engineer… things. can upgrade Halo universe tech without any new produced components by just reconfiguring stuff. Can you show that the flood dont do the same thing to captured vessels? All i would like is a quote that shows them having incorporated components that they created themselves.

    No amount of insistence that they can on your part will be enough. I could insist that it is 100% possible for the Tyranids to grow space marine Primarchs by the millions but it wont do any good unless i post something that confirms it…. Though hypothetically speaking there isn’t any reason that they cant… I mean, if they have eaten a single space marine then they must have consumed their Primarchs gene seed which would be instantly transmitted to the entire fleet. Tyranids have been shown to be able to steal memories and transfer consciousness between bodies. so technically they could grow and utilise every single living thing they have ever eaten.

  31. the_man_with The_Answers January 14, 2015 at 3:24 pm -      #231

    “Except it has been posted on here multiple times that the…. hurgok? engineer… things. can upgrade Halo universe tech without any new produced components by just reconfiguring stuff. Can you show that the flood dont do the same thing to captured vessels? All i would like is a quote that shows them having incorporated components that they created themselves.”

    You do realize that the Flood having Huragok abilities is like, what IamTaco has been saying this whole time, right? And that Huragok can essentially make entire Forerunner-level slipspace drives in a few hours with practically zero resources?

    “All i would like is a quote that shows them having incorporated components that they created themselves.”

    IamTaco provided it on the previous page.

    ” However, the Gravemind did become aware of Earth’s Portal – and thus the danger that the Lesser Ark still posed to his plans – as soon as he arrived in the Sol system. His modifications to High Charity were far-reaching, both to keep the facility functioning after the departure of the Keyship, and to better serve as a mobile plagueship from which he could sing victory everlasting in a galaxy consumed of thinking life. But even with an intellect impossibly vast and deep, able to twist the technologies of the Covenant far beyond their original functionality by application of esoteric Precursor science”

    Without the Keyship in High Charity, the whole thing essentially loses power (Because the Keyship supplied the station with power to begin with). So not only vastly (EXTREME understatement) upgrade the FTL, he also had to create some new form of power-generation to get everything to run.

    “No amount of insistence that they can on your part will be enough. I could insist that it is 100% possible for the Tyranids to grow space marine Primarchs by the millions but it wont do any good unless i post something that confirms it…. Though hypothetically speaking there isn’t any reason that they cant… I mean, if they have eaten a single space marine then they must have consumed their Primarchs gene seed which would be instantly transmitted to the entire fleet.”

    Precursor forms ascend the technological ladder on their own accord.
    Flood are a Precursor form.
    Ergo Flood ascend the technological ladder.

    They modify and upgrade ships to perform tens of trillions of times better than their original. They arrived in the Milky Way with completely foreign unidentified ships not created by any other faction. The Gravemind planned to assault the Milky Way from The Ark, which would be impossible if he couldn’t create ships with insane FTL to travel the millions of trillions of lightyears to get back there.

    But alas, because we never see the Flood build ships in the few weeks we saw them in the games, I guess that means that it is totally outside of their ability despite evidence exactly opposite that.

  32. LadyRamkin January 14, 2015 at 3:49 pm -      #232

    “You do realize that the Flood having Huragok abilities is like, what IamTaco has been saying this whole time, right? And that Huragok can essentially make entire Forerunner-level slipspace drives in a few hours with practically zero resources?”

    I have never actually argued against… anybody on this thread…. so far

    Can a Huragok create a slip space drive on a planet with 0 mechanical resources at its disposal in a few hours? If so, cool.

    “Precursor forms ascend the technological ladder on their own accord.”

    Humans also ascended the technological ladder on their own (in real life) doesnt mean that it happens particularly quickly

    “They modify and upgrade ships to perform tens of trillions of times better than their original. ”

    Not making their own from scratch, with no resources whatsoever available. which is what they are like in this match.

    “They arrived in the Milky Way with completely foreign unidentified ships not created by any other faction”

    Including the flood?

    “The Gravemind planned to assault the Milky Way from The Ark, which would be impossible if he couldn’t create ships with insane FTL to travel the millions of trillions of lightyears to get back there.”

    As far as i understand it, the flood are immortal right? Time wouldn’t really be a factor for them. As long as the infect everything the time scale doest really matter right?

  33. pimpmage January 14, 2015 at 3:57 pm -      #233

    “Your missing the point so hard I’d almost say you were trying.”

    No, you missed the point I was trying to make. Don’t post matches that are stomps and then cry when the lost didn’t get the tools needed to even have a chance.

    “Fuck, the FIRST EVER (as far as in-universe history goes) encounter with Flood/Flood dust was when ships not owned by any existing faction appeared in the galaxy and crash landed. Where do you suppose they got those if nobody else made them?”

    Obviously some other race made that ship because you still haven’t proved the flood create technology. Not even onece. We can finally get to the meat of the argument when you prove the flood can leave an atmosphere by themselves. Because in a neutral galaxy, and the fact that the tryanids don’t use technology means there will be nothing to scavenge, ANYWHERE.

    “You do realize that the Flood having Huragok abilities is like, what IamTaco has been saying this whole time, right?”

    Huragoks as a race retain near reality warping powers with technology. Have you shown that a flood form of that race exists? Also I would like to see if they retain their abilities while in flood form.

    “They modify and upgrade ships to perform tens of trillions of times better than their original. They arrived in the Milky Way with completely foreign unidentified ships not created by any other faction.”

    There are forerunner books that detail their fall to the flood, you know that right? You need not get desperate and extrapolate everything to infinity.

    “But alas, because we never see the Flood build ships in the few weeks we saw them in the games, I guess that means that it is totally outside of their ability despite evidence exactly opposite that.”

    There is a thing called a book. Many exist outside the games that detail the flood better than the games do. Knock yourself out!

  34. LadyRamkin January 14, 2015 at 4:00 pm -      #234

    “I guess that means that it is totally outside of their ability despite evidence exactly opposite that.”

    If there is evidence of them (the flood) building (not stealing or modifying) ships from absolutely nothing (as in no resources, tools, stolen factories, ect, not even scrounged ones) in a couple of hours, and that evidence just exists (in the games or not. Then post it. Make it bold, possibly italic so that it cant be missed. And every time we ask for proof, link back to that post. Like right now. Dont say anything else. dont say you already posted it, or that its obvious. or heavily implied. Post the evidence and we will have to accept it. (if its valid) and if we dont then you can call us trolls or whatnot and get on with your day. :D

  35. the_man_with The_Answers January 14, 2015 at 4:28 pm -      #235

    “I have never actually argued against… anybody on this thread…. so far”

    Never said you were. But you’re bringing “counter” points up that are actually what the Tyranid side is saying doesn’t happen and the Flood side is.

    “Can a Huragok create a slip space drive on a planet with 0 mechanical resources at its disposal in a few hours? If so, cool.”

    A few Huragok put into a Pelican dropship with zero tools or resources created a slipspace drive for the Pelican in a few hours.

    “Humans also ascended the technological ladder on their own (in real life) doesnt mean that it happens particularly quickly”

    Humans haven’t done it many time over, and aren’t a Hivemind that has the knowledge of trillions of those it has infected.

    “Not making their own from scratch, with no resources whatsoever available. which is what they are like in this match.”

    They apparently have the capacity to turn resources in Covenant material into the resources they need to make upgrades. How is this any different from gaining those resources in any other way? They can clearly breakdown surrounding resources to process them into what they need. Which is like the definition of something with industrial capability. Would they not have to create tools to apply the upgrades on top of that. The Flood are essentially taking a Ford Model-T and turning it into a Lambo. You can’t do that without have an extensive skill in material sciences and the ability to produce the tools and materials to do so, even if some of those materials may still be present in the Ford.

    “Including the flood?”

    The Precursor/Flood dust arrived in completely “alien” ships to any of the known faction. If the Flood didn’t make them, then who did?

    “As far as i understand it, the flood are immortal right? Time wouldn’t really be a factor for them. As long as the infect everything the time scale doest really matter right?”

    True, but they would still have to have the ability to build.

    “No, you missed the point I was trying to make. Don’t post matches that are stomps and then cry when the lost didn’t get the tools needed to even have a chance.”

    You are really trying to dodge this aren’t you? Nobody is bitching that this is a stomp. If you are so bound by your absolute current incarnation rule, then do you agree that Mass Effect universe battle should be debated from the standpoint where all the relays are destroyed, as well as the majority of the assets for all the races? Do you support the notion that Solid Snake should fight his opponents from the position of a wheelchair?

    This isn’t a question of things being a stomp. This is trying to determine what assets the Flood have in their “current incarnation.” The last known incarnation with known assets is the end of Halo 3. Everything past that is pure conjecture and would not be admissible in a debate. Otherwise I could just state that, since the Flood came from outside the Galaxy, they have multitudes of hypothetical resources spanning multitudes of consumed hypothetical galaxies, and it would be JUST as valid as any other post-Halo 3 conjecture.

    “Obviously some other race made that ship”

    Yes, some other magical race made a Fleet of ships solely designed to carry and spread Flood powder. Said race is completely unknown to the Forerunners, who span the entire Milky Way.

    God damn your are really being dense on this.

    “you still haven’t proved the flood create technology. Not even onece. We can finally get to the meat of the argument when you prove the flood can leave an atmosphere by themselves. Because in a neutral galaxy, and the fact that the tryanids don’t use technology means there will be nothing to scavenge, ANYWHERE.”

    Precursors can create their own technology. Proved.
    The Flood are a form of Precursors. Proved.
    The Flood had a fleet of ships not created by any race in the Milky Way. Proved.
    The Flood can upgrade technology to be trillions of times better than the original version. Proved.
    The Flood planned to assault the Milky Way from millions of trillions of lightyears away with no other way of achieving FTL then by building it themselves. Proved.
    How can you seriously sit there and say there is absolutely no evidence that the Flood can build on their own?

    “There are forerunner books that detail their fall to the flood, you know that right? You need not get desperate and extrapolate everything to infinity.”

    Said books show that the Flood are Precursors and that Precursors have ascended the technological ladder many times over. Said books reveal that the Flood had an entire fleet of ships not created by any other race in the galaxy. And here you are, still with your hands over your ears.

  36. the_man_with The_Answers January 14, 2015 at 4:41 pm -      #236

    “If there is evidence of them (the flood) building (not stealing or modifying) ships from absolutely nothing (as in no resources, tools, stolen factories, ect, not even scrounged ones) in a couple of hours, and that evidence just exists (in the games or not. Then post it. Make it bold, possibly italic so that it cant be missed. And every time we ask for proof, link back to that post. Like right now. Dont say anything else. dont say you already posted it, or that its obvious. or heavily implied. Post the evidence and we will have to accept it. (if its valid) and if we dont then you can call us trolls or whatnot and get on with your day.”

    Fucking christ.

    “Our urge to create is immutable; we must create. But the beings we create shall never again reach out in strength against us. All that is created will suffer. All will be born in suffering, endless grayness shall be their lot. All creation will tailor to failure and pain, that never again shall the offspring of the eternal Fount rise up against their creators. Listen to the silence. Ten million years of deep silence. And now, whimpers and cries; not of birth. That is what we bring: a great crushing weight to press down youth and hope. No more will. No more freedom. Nothing new but agonizing death and never good shall come of it. We are the last of those who gave you breath and form, millions of years ago. We are the last of those your kind defied and ruthlessly destroyed. WE ARE THE LAST PRECURSORS. And now we are legion.”
    —The Gravemind to Catalog c. 100,000 BCE.[7] ”

    ‘“The Precursors lived in many shapes, flesh and spirit, primitive and advanced, spacefaring and locked to their worlds … Evolved over and over again, died away, were reborn, explored, and seeded many galaxies …”

    Jesus christ. I have no idea how many times this has to be brought up over and over again.

    “in a couple of hours”

    For god’s sake nobody ever claimed that.

    Here’s what you guys are saying:
    A race of near god-like beings, who have been stated to have climbed the technological ladder over and over again, taking the form of The Flood cannot build stuff on their own. That The Flood and their knowledge combined from trillions of minds from exceptionally advanced space-faring empires can’t produce their own materials. Something that can turn the equivalent of a Ford Model-T into a super-charged Lambo on its own in a short time period, is completely blind to the idea of applied materials science.

    For fuck’s sake.

  37. LadyRamkin January 14, 2015 at 4:48 pm -      #237

    “A few Huragok put into a Pelican dropship with zero tools or resources created a slipspace drive for the Pelican in a few hours.”

    Right, but they started with a pelican, if you put one, on its own, in a forest (without a pelican) would they be able to make a slip space drive?

    “Humans haven’t done it many time over, and aren’t a Hivemind that has the knowledge of trillions of those it has infected.”

    But the actual getting started would still take longer than a few hours even if you had done it a million times before. Just the locating of sufficient quality/quantity of ore will take a very long time.

    “they apparently have the capacity to turn resources in Covenant material into the resources they need to make upgrades. How is this any different from gaining those resources in any other way?”

    Because covenant material is already refined and constructed, breaking that down, re purposing it, whatever, is infinity easier than starting with nothing. The flood, in this match, will essentially have to Minecraft themselves to victory. they will have to find large amounts of suitable ore. create tools to extract that ore, create more tools to refine that ore, create more tools out of said ore, create basic power generation such as coal based electricity. Create more advanced tools, create basic manufacturing plants, manufacture more advanced manufacturing plants, create more advanced power generation. (all the while still locating and refining new ore. creating strong alloys making more tools from those alloys, it goes on and on.

    And your insistence that they can do that in a couple of hours is…. ridiculous. I mean, if they planet they are on lacks even one type of resource they need they are fucked.

    “Precursors can create their own technology. Proved.”

    Okay

    “The Flood are a form of Precursors. Proved”

    …..okay? people are a form of primate but go on.

    “The Flood had a fleet of ships not created by any race in the Milky Way. Proved.”

    Is there proof that the flood created them, considering their usual MO?

    The Flood can upgrade technology to be trillions of times better than the original version. Proved.

    Okay

    The Flood planned to assault the Milky Way from millions of trillions of lightyears away with no other way of achieving FTL then by building it themselves. Proved.

    Wernt they on the arc? doest that have ships and stuff? also there is no way to tell that their plan involved FTL travel, We see it as a necesity since we have a limited life span but if we were immortal it really wouldnt be a problem

    How can you seriously sit there and say there is absolutely no evidence that the Flood can build on their own?

    Im not saying they cant, i have not taken that stance, you have yet to convince me they can. (its not the same thing) But im more arguing against the time frame you have given them to be able to do it.
    —-

  38. LadyRamkin January 14, 2015 at 4:52 pm -      #238

    you may not have noticed, but im a bit dense. so what the fuck does

    ““Our urge to create is immutable; we must create. But the beings we create shall never again reach out in strength against us. All that is created will suffer. All will be born in suffering, endless grayness shall be their lot. All creation will tailor to failure and pain, that never again shall the offspring of the eternal Fount rise up against their creators. Listen to the silence. Ten million years of deep silence. And now, whimpers and cries; not of birth. That is what we bring: a great crushing weight to press down youth and hope. No more will. No more freedom. Nothing new but agonizing death and never good shall come of it. We are the last of those who gave you breath and form, millions of years ago. We are the last of those your kind defied and ruthlessly destroyed. WE ARE THE LAST PRECURSORS. And now we are legion.”
    —The Gravemind to Catalog c. 100,000 BCE.[7] ”

    ‘“The Precursors lived in many shapes, flesh and spirit, primitive and advanced, spacefaring and locked to their worlds … Evolved over and over again, died away, were reborn, explored, and seeded many galaxies …””

    mean???

    even if they can build stuff from scratch, which im not saying they cant. i dont see how they build anything significant before the Nids turn up and eat the planet.

  39. LadyRamkin January 14, 2015 at 4:59 pm -      #239

    I mean, if the Nids simply attempt to kill their enemy, then all they have to do is drink the atmosphere/oceans of the planet that the flood are on without even going anywhere near them. The planet turns into an unstable molten mess, the flood burn. end of.

    soz multi post

  40. the_man_with The_Answers January 14, 2015 at 5:00 pm -      #240

    Wait, there’s more!
    Tentative conclusions: the Flood is mutating to form Graveminds of unprecedented size and complexity, incorporating many species. Entire planetary ecosystems have apparently undergone conversion to what are being referred to as Key Minds. Evidence of the EXTRAORDINARY STRATEGIC PLANNING ABILITIES of these Key Minds is rapidly increasing . They appear to be more than a match for any metarch-level ancilla, capable of assuming complete control of besieged sectors, and sending converted battle fleets through unprecedented number of slipspace portals UTILIZING UNFAMILIAR TECHNOLOGY. This technology also appears to be capable of blocking delivery of our forces to battle fronts. Vessels showing signs of extreme reconciliation failure have been witnessed at the arrival points of major Forerunner portals. Perhaps most alarming, reports arrive each hour of reawakened Precursor artifacts, including orbital ribbons, star roads, planetary fortresses, and citadels. Combined defense forces are inadequate to investigate and confirm all instances of these reactivations. They appear to be galaxy-wide.

    Bear, Greg (2013-03-19). Halo: Silentium (Forerunner) (pp. 186-187). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.
    -

  41. Tyran January 14, 2015 at 5:01 pm -      #241

    I´m not saying they cant, i have not taken that stance, you have yet to convince me they can. (its not the same thing) But im more arguing against the time frame you have given them to be able to do it.

    I have the same stance, the Flood can build ships, they know how, but it will take them a lot of time.

    Although the Tyranid FTL is slow, so maybe there would actually be enough time… no idea really. Also the lack of a defined scenario doesn’t helps.

  42. LadyRamkin January 14, 2015 at 5:09 pm -      #242

    “EXTRAORDINARY STRATEGIC PLANNING ABILITIES”

    Is this the same kind of extraordinary strategic planning abilities as Adam malkovich the “perfect military mind” or even the immense “tactical genius” of Creed?

  43. the_man_with The_Answers January 14, 2015 at 5:18 pm -      #243

    “Right, but they started with a pelican, if you put one, on its own, in a forest (without a pelican) would they be able to make a slip space drive?”

    Except the Pelican wasn’t structurally changed at all.

    “But the actual getting started would still take longer than a few hours ”

    Nobody claimed it would take hours. Stop straw manning.

    “Because covenant material is already refined and constructed, breaking that down, re purposing it, whatever, is infinity easier than starting with nothing.”

    Except it is clearly constructed in the wrong form. Which means the Flood turned those components into things that were completely different.

    “The flood, in this match, will essentially have to Minecraft themselves to victory. they will have to find large amounts of suitable ore. create tools to extract that ore, create more tools to refine that ore, create more tools out of said ore, create basic power generation such as coal based electricity. Create more advanced tools, create basic manufacturing plants, manufacture more advanced manufacturing plants, create more advanced power generation. (all the while still locating and refining new ore. creating strong alloys making more tools from those alloys, it goes on and on.”

    Which they have time to do, seeing as it takes decades to cover large distances. Meanwhile the Flood SHOULD have starting access to the remains of High Charity as well as The Ark, as that is their most recent incarnation that we know anything about. Despite Pimpmage’s constant insistence that the Flood shold be starting with a purely hypothetical post-Halo 3 force that ranges in magnitude from a single infection form to multiple galaxies filled with Flood.

    “And your insistence that they can do that in a couple of hours is…. ridiculous.”

    Except I’ve never said that… I didn’t even say they upgraded High Charity in that little time if you cared to read the previous comments…

    “…..okay? people are a form of primate but go on.”

    Except other primates don’t identify themselves as humans. Probably shouldn’t apply the same rules to timeless transsentient beings…

    “Is there proof that the flood created them, considering their usual MO?”

    The fact that nobody else did? Did the ships just pop into existence? They had to be created somehow, and the Flood are the only possibility.

    “Wernt they on the arc? doest that have ships and stuff? also there is no way to tell that their plan involved FTL travel, We see it as a necesity since we have a limited life span but if we were immortal it really wouldnt be a problem”

    There aren’t any ships left on the Ark that have been revealed to us. And if they attempted to get to the Milky Way conventionally, IE without FTL, it would take shitloads of fuel obtained somehow, vessels constructed, and trillions upon trillions of years. That’s so much time that the universe is likely to collapse to entropy before the Flood would even arrive.

    “But im more arguing against the time frame you have given them to be able to do it.”

    I have given them no timeline.

    “even if they can build stuff from scratch, which im not saying they cant. i dont see how they build anything significant before the Nids turn up and eat the planet.”

    The Tyranids don’t start off with knowledge of all Flood locations, meaning they have to travel linearly from planet to planet in search. A process taking decades if not centuries.

    “I mean, if the Nids simply attempt to kill their enemy, then all they have to do is drink the atmosphere/oceans of the planet that the flood are on without even going anywhere near them. The planet turns into an unstable molten mess, the flood burn. end of.”

    Maybe if the Flood just sit around and do nothing. The collection requires tendrils to the planet, which is a really easy vector for The Flood. Not to mention the atmosphere will be rife with FSCs. Do you really want to suck that up and distribute it?

  44. LadyRamkin January 14, 2015 at 5:35 pm -      #244

    “Except the Pelican wasn’t structurally changed at all.”

    …………………….so….. magic?
    also, not the point.

    “Nobody claimed it would take hours. Stop straw manning.”

    Look, somebody said something about them being in space in a few hours…. possibly. my memory is quite poor, i did something similar in Percy vs Link, i fixed it in the end but i do tend to err.
    Anyway, my stand point has nothing to do with disproving the hours thing, so even if it was a straw man, its a bloody awful one.

    “Except it is clearly constructed in the wrong form. Which means the Flood turned those components into things that were completely different.”

    Not necessarily, they could have just changed all the wiring around. redistributed power to different places, they could have made a machine just from spare parts that were laying around.

    It will still take them forever to Minecraft to victory.

    “Which they have time to do, seeing as it takes decades to cover large distances. ”

    What distances? No battlefield was defined. With no defined battlefield we don’t just start combatants on different planets that would make some matches very awkward.

    “Except I’ve never said that… I didn’t even say they upgraded High Charity in that little time if you cared to read the previous comments…”



    “The fact that nobody else did? Did the ships just pop into existence? They had to be created somehow, and the Flood are the only possibility.”

    So it has been stated 100% that in the halo universe ours is the only populated galaxy?

    “The Tyranids don’t start off with knowledge of all Flood locations, meaning they have to travel linearly from planet to planet in search. A process taking decades if not centuries”

    No, neutral universe, neutral battlefield. we don’t just spread them all out willy nilly.

    Also, if the Nids have access to a galaxy unopposed, they arnt going to go one planet at a time
    images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130417073922/warhammer40k/images/f/fe/Tyranids_incursions.jpg
    Those tendrils on the galactic map are made of trillions upon trillions of Nid ship coming from all different directions even with their comparatively shitty FTL they are just gonna roll through the galaxy.

    “Maybe if the Flood just sit around and do nothing. The collection requires tendrils to the planet”

    Not if they are just gonna drink the atmosphere couple of ships in low orbit. Suck up the FSC (whatever they are) then order those ships to crash into the nearest sun.

  45. Tyran January 14, 2015 at 6:29 pm -      #245

    Also, if the Nids have access to a galaxy unopposed, they arnt going to go one planet at a time
    images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130417073922/warhammer40k/images/f/fe/Tyranids_incursions.jpg
    Those tendrils on the galactic map are made of trillions upon trillions of Nid ship coming from all different directions even with their comparatively shitty FTL they are just gonna roll through the galaxy.


    That image only represent the path of the Hive Fleets, its like the arrows in the World War maps.

  46. GMoney January 14, 2015 at 6:30 pm -      #246

    “Literally stated by numerous sources that the flood are really just the new forms that the precursors have taken.”

    It’s unclear. On one hand, the Flood says that The Flood is a Precursor/group of Precursors who changed themselves into dust but went insane after millions of years of inanimacy and developed a weird philosophy of Genocide causing the powder to become corrupted and turn into Flood. On the other hand, The Primordial says that this was The Precursors’ plan all along. But my point is is that we are debating The FLOOD. Not, The Precursors. The Flood is not The Precursors. It’s an evolution of The Precursors. If you want to do Precursors vs Tyranids, go suggest the match. (Precursors roflstomped btw)

    “Does anybody not understand this? While the tryanids can basically suck away the entire’s planet’s biosphere away in a couple months, it takes an entire fleet to do this, and this only increases their fleet size and strength.”

    Actually, no it only takes 1 hive ship. And, as people have said before but I will say again, the time table in the Tyranid Codex is for OCCUPIED planets. if the planet is unoccupied it only takes about a month.

    ” The flood on the other hand can use the entire planet’s biosphere to form a sort of flood factory world where they can build basic tools that leads to more advanced tools that leads to even more advanced tools. Just like every civilization ever. Eventually they are going to get FTL ships that are going to allow them to infest a lot and I mean alot alot more worlds then the tryanids ever could. And eventually the flood are going to get to forerunner level tech where it doesn’t how fast or whatever the flood cover the surface of a planet with since they can just a forerunner level automated factories to break apart entire planets for building material. Think it like this, the tryanids are constantly gaining more men, they are adding millions of soldiers, all armed with spears and clubs to their army at a rate that the flood can’t hope to match early. The flood start with small army, just armed with their fist and with no amour to speak of. But the flood can advance at a rapid rate, they can start producing guns and tanks then jets then spacecraft while the tryanids are mostly stuck with guys with spears and swords.”

    Except they never, ever, ever so this. They commandeer other people’s technology. Not saying that thy can’t so anything technological at all but them making ships by themselves is 1 big conjecture. let me give an example. I know how to repair an engine, dosent mean I can build a car.

    “Precursor era flood, created hundred million kilometer strands of solar system busting indestructible material, technological marvels that rival the technological achievements of the motherfucking culture. Also created the domain, humanity and the forerunners. Also stated to have devolved themselves many times to the stone age and evolve back to their former galaxy moving glory.”

    The Flood did not create The Star Roads. And The Star Roads aren’t indestructible. In Crytum we are told that the inter-system Star Roads were broken by millennia of disrepair. They simply used them. Just like, to use my previous example, I know hoe to drive a car, dosent mean I know how to build one. Not only that, but I believe it even says in Silentium that even the Flood dosent have the full picture of the Precursors. And we already debated about Galaxy moving Precursors and they can’t do it.

    “Forerunner era flood, managed to mindrape tons of forerunner A.I and take control of tons of forerunner assets including automated factories, millions of worlds and piloted and even upgraded forerunner ships. Also took control of said multi-million kilometer star roads that could alter physics over 2/3 of the galaxy. We never actually see the flood making ships but that may be because the flood are in possession of tons of automated forerunner factories. The point is that the flood mainly made use of their technological prowess here.”

    The Gravemind took 43 years to break Mendicant Bias with the Passive Logic Plague and failed to break Cortana even after subjecting her to hours/days of Aggrssive Logic Plague. I don’t remember That the Flood upgraded Forerunner ships, could you give me a page#?

    “Not even close to an entire fleet, not even close to a tendril of an entire fleet, not even close to a tendril of a tendril of an entire fleet. I a single tendril of one of the hive fleets spans hundreds of solar systems. And there are 3? current major hive fleets, and loads of smaller ones. And its not like the Tyranid’s can only take one planet at a time. It’s possible that by the time the Flood develop space techno;pgy there wont be any non Tyranid biomass left for them to get their… tentacles on.”

    I know I’m arguing against my own side a little bit, but the Tyranid Hive Fleets do not span Solar Systems. The art showing them are artistic representations.

    “To bring something to light, AFTER nearly 2 months, the Tyranids THEN begin to process all the biomass. Something that, alone, takes them ANOTHER month. The Flood do that within the week. THEN the Tyranids suck up the atmosphere, which brings the ocean along with it thanks to the evaporation from lack of pressure. Flood complete up to Tyranid planetary cycle “Day 80″ within the first week. Resource collection afterwards is a function of need for the Tyranids, not the Flood, and comparing that specific part of the cycle is irrelevant.”

    The thing is, as said before, it only takes 1 month with no resistance for the Nids to absorb a planet and leave. The problem (as I see it) for the flood is that they are fighting something they cannot infect. Nurgle’s plagues infect everything in 40k but the Nids. Even races more advanced than The Forerunners could not cure it. And about Tyranids having souls: We do see Tyranids display basic emotion (mostly anger) which would imply having a soul. Not only that, but even when completely removed from the Hive Mind’s influence they are still alive and behave as animals, just uncoordinated. And, Nurgle’s diseases also infect the body, so it dosent really matter if they have souls or not. As the Tyranids spread on, consuming more planets the Flood will eventually run out of food and be forced to confront the Turanids directly, which they will lose.

  47. LadyRamkin January 14, 2015 at 6:31 pm -      #247

    The red arrows at the bottom show you which direction the Hive fleets are moving. otherwise that is a scale representation of the hive fleets.

  48. LadyRamkin January 14, 2015 at 6:40 pm -      #248

    “I know I’m arguing against my own side a little bit, but the Tyranid Hive Fleets do not span Solar Systems. The art showing them are artistic representations.”

    “An alien threat has risen from beyond the abyss, a swarm so vast that it blots out the stars. This horror fights neither for power nor territory, but rather to feed a hunger so insatiable that it will eventually devour the entire galaxy.”
    — Inquisitor Kryptman’s dire warning to Ultramarines’ Chapter Master Marneus Calgar

    Technically speaking your hand could blot out the stars if you put it in front of your face, but still…

  49. Tyran January 14, 2015 at 6:44 pm -      #249

    The red arrows at the bottom show you which direction the Hive fleets are moving. otherwise that is a scale representation of the hive fleets.

    No is not, Hive Fleets aren’t that large, hell that amount of ships would collapse into a black hole.

  50. LadyRamkin January 14, 2015 at 6:49 pm -      #250

    “No is not, Hive Fleets aren’t that large, hell that amount of ships would collapse into a black hole.”

    *scwint*…… my fondness for Tyranid’s has dropped by quite a large amount….

  51. GMoney January 14, 2015 at 6:49 pm -      #251

    -Double post, sorry.

  52. pimpmage January 14, 2015 at 6:52 pm -      #252

    I would think it is like a semi scale representation. That map is not large enough to show every single guide ship in detail, so the artists are talking some liberties. But the width of the tendrils seem to be canon, but not the density.

  53. GMoney January 14, 2015 at 6:52 pm -      #253

    “The red arrows at the bottom show you which direction the Hive fleets are moving. otherwise that is a scale representation of the hive fleets.”

    If the Hive Fleets were that big, they wouldn’t need to eat planets their gravitational pull would suck the planets into them.

  54. GMoney January 14, 2015 at 6:58 pm -      #254

    “I would think it is like a semi scale representation. That map is not large enough to show every single guide ship in detail, so the artists are talking some liberties. But the width of the tendrils seem to be canon, but not the density.”

    Nah. Hive Fleet Behemoth composed of 1000 ships and they aren’t that long.

  55. LadyRamkin January 14, 2015 at 7:01 pm -      #255

    “Nah. Hive Fleet Behemoth composed of 1000 ships and they aren’t that long.”

    I feel like my soul has been nerfed

  56. Tyran January 14, 2015 at 7:01 pm -      #256

    I would think it is like a semi scale representation. That map is not large enough to show every single guide ship in detail, so the artists are talking some liberties. But the width of the tendrils seem to be canon, but not the density.

    Unlikely, as some of the Hive Fleets have been killed in one or a few battles. Something that large would take ages to kill.

    Nah. Hive Fleet Behemoth composed of 1000 ships and they aren’t that long.

    IIRC, 40k usually only count capital ships, so it is possible that it is 1000 Tyranid capital ships (Hive Ships and Cruisers) and a greater number of escort ships.

  57. Tyran January 14, 2015 at 7:04 pm -      #257

    double post

  58. pimpmage January 14, 2015 at 7:08 pm -      #258

    Does anyone actually know the size of a hive ship? I tried looking it up a few days ago, and from artwork, they seem to be several times larger than the largest imperial ship.

  59. GMoney January 14, 2015 at 7:16 pm -      #259

    “Does anyone actually know the size of a hive ship? I tried looking it up a few days ago, and from artwork, they seem to be several times larger than the largest imperial ship.”

    They look roughly Super Star Destroyer Sized but much thicker IMO.

  60. LadyRamkin January 14, 2015 at 7:17 pm -      #260

    Well, iv’e officially lost interest.
    GD, WR

    Goodnight

  61. Tyran January 14, 2015 at 7:19 pm -      #261

    Does anyone actually know the size of a hive ship? I tried looking it up a few days ago, and from artwork, they seem to be several times larger than the largest imperial ship.

    It is mentioned that there are some “super Hive Ships” that dwarf any Imperial ships. But in average they seem to be around the same size as imperial battleships. And 40k is inconsistent when it comes to ship sizes anyway.

  62. OberHerr January 14, 2015 at 9:57 pm -      #262

    vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/warhammer40k/images/1/15/Hive_Fleet_Leviathan_Typhon_Primaris.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20130613190656

    img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20140123170127/warhammer40k/images/b/b5/Tyranid_Hive_Fleet_Bioships.png

    If those images are to be believed…..pretty big. Hard to perfectly gauge the size, but if those are the Emperor class ships they seem to be to me….darn. Big.

  63. pimpmage January 14, 2015 at 10:11 pm -      #263

    Those all look like frigates. The smallest combat vessels there are.

  64. GMoney January 14, 2015 at 10:28 pm -      #264

    The ships in the first picture are strike cruiser. The ones in the second picture are to un detailed for me to make an educated decision.

  65. the_man_with The_Answers January 14, 2015 at 10:56 pm -      #265

    “…………………….so….. magic?
    also, not the point.”

    Are you trolling? You asked if Huragok could make something from virtually nothing and I pointed out that they made a slipspace drive without changing anything in the Pelican. Something from nothing. Then, upon receiving the information you act like you never asked for it in the first time and make a quasi-remark about it is maybe magic like you didn’t even comprehend the result of your question if it was confirmed like it was.

    “Anyway, my stand point has nothing to do with disproving the hours thing, so even if it was a straw man, its a bloody awful one.”

    Except every time you asked for evidence, you specifically stated that it must take place within “hours.” If it wasn’t your direct point it was very closely related.

    “Not necessarily, they could have just changed all the wiring around. redistributed power to different places, they could have made a machine just from spare parts that were laying around.”

    Redistributed the power? What power? The Keyship provided power to the entire station, and it up and left. Furthermore, making a “machine” from “spare parts” doesn’t sound like the vast and extensive upgrades applied to the entire station as was described. Rearranging the furniture does not increase effectiveness a several thousand trillion percent.

    “It will still take them forever to Minecraft to victory.”

    It took them a week or two to boost the Slipspace abilities of a 350km station to the point where it could travel from one side of the galaxy to the other 7 million times in one second.

    And luckily, with Tyranid travel times, “forever” is an amount of time they will likely have.

    “What distances? No battlefield was defined. With no defined battlefield we don’t just start combatants on different planets that would make some matches very awkward.”

    These are two inter-galactic polities. I would assume this works like any other “universe” battle where each side as their current incarnation known assets within a “neutral galaxy.”

    Even if the Tyranids and Flood are given arbitrary equal amounts of forces on a random designated “neutral” planet, the Flood would still win in that they would consume 99% of the planet’s surface before the Tyranids have fully even mobilized. Which is a problem because the Tyranids face the issue of, at best, not being able to be infected but at the same time incapable of using Flood material. Which means they will be fighting an essentially infinite army while the Flood have taken all other biomass that the Tyranids would have normally used, and keep recycling their own material over and over.

    “So it has been stated 100% that in the halo universe ours is the only populated galaxy?”

    That’s a path you don’t want to follow. Because it ends up with me pulling out a quote from the Gravemind talking how he as conquered many galaxies before the Milky Way, giving the Flood a massive numerical advantage as well as solving literally all of their logistical problems that we are discussing currently.

    “Not if they are just gonna drink the atmosphere couple of ships in low orbit. Suck up the FSC (whatever they are) then order those ships to crash into the nearest sun.”

    FSC is the Flood Super Cell. Additionally, high atmosphere likely wouldn’t be safe, seeing as the Gravemind could launch Flood pods from the Ark to Installation 04B no problem. A distance of at least hundreds of kilometers if not thousands. Also, the reason sucking up FSCs would be detrimental is that they would likely be able to infect the Tyranids doing it. Meaning they no longer take orders to fly into a sun.

    “The Flood is not The Precursors. It’s an evolution of The Precursors.”

    Which doesn’t make any sense when the Flood/Precursors self identify as both the Flood and Precursors at the same time.

    “The thing is, as said before, it only takes 1 month with no resistance for the Nids to absorb a planet and leave. The problem (as I see it) for the flood is that they are fighting something they cannot infect. Nurgle’s plagues infect everything in 40k but the Nids. Even races more advanced than The Forerunners could not cure it. And about Tyranids having souls: We do see Tyranids display basic emotion (mostly anger) which would imply having a soul. Not only that, but even when completely removed from the Hive Mind’s influence they are still alive and behave as animals, just uncoordinated. And, Nurgle’s diseases also infect the body, so it dosent really matter if they have souls or not. As the Tyranids spread on, consuming more planets the Flood will eventually run out of food and be forced to confront the Turanids directly, which they will lose.”

    Nurgle’s Rot primarily targets the soul. Something the Tyranids DO NOT HAVE as proved earlier. The Physical effects of Nurgle’s Rot are not its primary feature and are definitely not the most dangerous part of the virus. Which means the Tyranids are immune to it via in-universe contextual reasons. Reasons that don’t apply to the Flood what so ever.

    “The thing is, as said before, it only takes 1 month with no resistance for the Nids to absorb a planet and leave.”

    And it takes Flood a few hours to absorb the biomass of a planet. Maybe a day or two with HEAVY resistance.The Tyranids take a month to do that AFTER resistance has been culled.

    “The red arrows at the bottom show you which direction the Hive fleets are moving. otherwise that is a scale representation of the hive fleets.”

    Oh please do provide the source for it being a scale representation

    “Technically speaking your hand could blot out the stars if you put it in front of your face, but still…”

    You just defeated your own argument.
    -

  66. GMoney January 14, 2015 at 11:20 pm -      #266

    ‘Even if the Tyranids and Flood are given arbitrary equal amounts of forces on a random designated “neutral” planet, the Flood would still win in that they would consume 99% of the planet’s surface before the Tyranids have fully even mobilized. Which is a problem because the Tyranids face the issue of, at best, not being able to be infected but at the same time incapable of using Flood material. Which means they will be fighting an essentially infinite army while the Flood have taken all other biomass that the Tyranids would have normally used, and keep recycling their own material over and over.”

    Why is Flood Biomass useless to Tyranids? They can absorb anything down to base elements and find a use for them.

    “Nurgle’s Rot primarily targets the soul. Something the Tyranids DO NOT HAVE as proved earlier. The Physical effects of Nurgle’s Rot are not its primary feature and are definitely not the most dangerous part of the virus. Which means the Tyranids are immune to it via in-universe contextual reasons. Reasons that don’t apply to the Flood what so ever.”

    it does target the body. have you seen any art detailing anything Nurgle like? it most certainly targets the body, the soul part is only once the victim dies. The plagues of Nurgle can even infect machines (even ones without machine spirits) heck, the Necrons aren’t even immune to Nurgle’s rot. It does not require a soul to be effective. And the only way to cure Nurgle’s Rot without being a Tyranid is literally divine intervention.

  67. Neon Lord January 14, 2015 at 11:32 pm -      #267

    “Nurgle’s Rot primarily targets the soul. Something the Tyranids DO NOT HAVE as proved earlier. The Physical effects of Nurgle’s Rot are not its primary feature and are definitely not the most dangerous part of the virus. Which means the Tyranids are immune to it via in-universe contextual reasons. Reasons that don’t apply to the Flood what so ever.”

    Except these are various Nurgle plagues, not just Nurgle’s rot. In combat, these would be ones so virulent they turn your body to mush as soon as they touch you. Stuff like instant hemorrhage and such.

    “Oh please do provide the source for it being a scale representation”

    It’s not. Lets just drop this point.

  68. the_man_with The_Answers January 14, 2015 at 11:43 pm -      #268

    “Why is Flood Biomass useless to Tyranids? They can absorb anything down to base elements and find a use for them.”

    And the Flood are still infectious down to their chemical components. See the problem?

    “it does target the body. have you seen any art detailing anything Nurgle like? it most certainly targets the body, the soul part is only once the victim dies. The plagues of Nurgle can even infect machines (even ones without machine spirits) heck, the Necrons aren’t even immune to Nurgle’s rot. It does not require a soul to be effective. And the only way to cure Nurgle’s Rot without being a Tyranid is literally divine intervention.”

    Source for the rot working on Necrons.

    “Also, the description of Nurgle’s Rot:
    This vile disease is not only the living manifestation of physical corruption but is also a spiritual plague as it slowly erodes a victim’s soul. As the disease takes its course, the tortured victim has to choose between either ending his own life, or fully embracing the ways of Father Nurgle. Only when death finally claims the victim will they realise the true blessing that has been visited upon them, as their soul is reborn”
    It’s defining trait of soul erosion and “self choice” are worthless against Tyranids.

    “Symptoms vary so wildly that no Imperial medic, physician or even a Space Marine Apothecary can deduce a cure, but the disease incorporates all the worst elements of every plague that has ever afflicted the mortals of the galaxy, slowly rendering the sufferer into a bloated, rotting, living corpse before they succumb to an eventual, agonising demise”

    It’s physical effects are a combination of a multitude of other plagues, and are nothing like the Flood what so ever. It is also stated to act very slowly. The Flood completely transform their victims in seconds. Something infected by Nurgle’s Rot still has time to try (and fail apparently) to battle it off. Flood infection is borderline instantaneous on a microbiological level and leaves nothing around to continually try to combat it.

    “As the disease takes hold of the sufferer, that seed is said to swell into a vile, bubonic fruit which feeds off the afflicted person’s soul like a tick gorging itself on its host’s blood.”

    Which the disease can’t do to Tyranids.

    The Tyranids can beat a slow acting, soul intensive virus. Which entirely dissimilar to an infection that acts extremely rapidly and just straight converts the target into Flood as opposed to a disease that has symptoms produced through bodily reactions/interactions. Yeah, kinda hard for me to consider that the “ace in the hole.”

    Theoretically, i the Flood were in a stage far enough to start leveraging the logic plague, infecting a Tyranid who has a hive mind synapse could possibly infect all the Tyranids under that synapses direction, as the Flood have shown to be capable of infection through the sheer presence of their consciousness.

    Further description of Nurgle’s Rot that would lean to the Tyranids being immune for contextual reasons:
    “It is as much a spiritual plague as a physical one, as the souls of those infected are slowly leeched into Nurgle’s realm, where they appear as warty seed pods growing from cracked branches of gloomy willows. Each pod swells and ripens as the plague destroys its host in the real world and the nascent Plaguebearer feeds upon the victim’s dying energies.”

  69. the_man_with The_Answers January 15, 2015 at 12:15 am -      #269

    “Except these are various Nurgle plagues, not just Nurgle’s rot. In combat, these would be ones so virulent they turn your body to mush as soon as they touch you. Stuff like instant hemorrhage and such.”

    Do you have sources for those plagues? Because Nurgle’s Rot is being toted as the winner here, and not only does it seem directly related to the soul it is :
    “Nurgle’s Rot is the most foul of the countless contagions which afflict mortal beings”
    wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Nurgle%27s_Rot
    “Nurgle’s Rot. It is the most contagious, most rapacious, and most heinous of all sicknesses, poxes, and fevers he has ever produced.”
    warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Nurgle%27s_Rot

    Other plagues seem curable through other means, as I’ve seen mention of Isha informing “mortals” of them so they can be combated.
    -

  70. Neon Lord January 15, 2015 at 12:50 am -      #270

    In reference to Beasts of Nurgle

    “Unbenownst to the cheerful but dim-witted daemons, their bodies are dripping with a whole host of virulent plagues and contagions. Even the proximity of a Beast of Nurgle is enough to spell death for small animals and plants. The mere touch of such a creature is quickly fatal to most mortals, causing aggressive diseases to run rampant through their bodies at an accelerated pace. Soon the victim falls silent and still, already decaying under the malign influence of Nurgle’s infections.

    Also, the original Shadowbrink source states
    “As each rancid disease was unleashed by the children of Nurgle, so the next brood of Tyranids had grown resistant to it.”
    implying that there were more than one disease used, and that the Tyranids specifically adapted to it, and were not unaffected by them.

  71. the_man_with The_Answers January 15, 2015 at 1:10 am -      #271

    “Unbenownst to the cheerful but dim-witted daemons, their bodies are dripping with a whole host of virulent plagues and contagions. Even the proximity of a Beast of Nurgle is enough to spell death for small animals and plants. The mere touch of such a creature is quickly fatal to most mortals, causing aggressive diseases to run rampant through their bodies at an accelerated pace. Soon the victim falls silent and still, already decaying under the malign influence of Nurgle’s infections.”

    Aggressive diseases. As in multiple at the same time. Nothing about these diseases being incurable. It’s probably the combination of them that makes them so immediately lethal. Like if you got HIV/AIDs and Ebola at the same time. But if cures have existed for the other diseases, then having all the necessary cures present would solve the problem. As per the example, if you cured HIV and you cured Ebola, having both would protect you.

    The Flood, on the other hand, have no found cure after centuries of searching for one by two extremely powerful galactic factions. So powerful that they rival some of the most powerful WH40K factions. One of which genetically sequenced a large portion of their population’s genes to effectively press the “killswitch” on Flood Super Cells (Cellular Apoptosis), which failed. The other faction wears armor that cures and eliminates all other known diseases and can nearly instantaneously heal what would otherwise be lethal amounts of radiation damage to their cells, as well as perpetually repair DNA to more or less give them immunity to aging. Couldn’t find a single cure. Not even foregoing their biological bodies and moving into the realm of the digital was an effective way to stop Flood infection.

    “implying that there were more than one disease used, and that the Tyranids specifically adapted to it, and were not unaffected by them.”

    I never said they didn’t adapt to diseases. I’m saying they haven’t shown the capacity to adapt to something that is uncurable, for which the rest of Nurgle’s diseases have not been shown to be.

  72. LadyRamkin January 15, 2015 at 4:57 am -      #272

    “Are you trolling? You asked if Huragok could make something from virtually nothing and I pointed out that they made a slipspace drive without changing anything in the Pelican.”

    The implication has always been that they go in to the pelican, change some stuff around and then it has slipspace capabilities, your exact wording was ” Pelican wasn’t structurally changed at all.” So they go into the pelican, do nothing, and it has slipspace capabilities. That’s magic.

    And still not a addressing my point since i said nothing. and they have a pelican. You keep inserting the word virtually into my sentences. That’s an equivocation fallacy.

    “Except every time you asked for evidence, you specifically stated that it must take place within “hours.” If it wasn’t your direct point it was very closely related.”

    And i apologised for that, i swear i read that somewhere…. but still, all i was really saying was that they couldn’t do it particularly quickly, you could say that they would reach space in a decade and i would still be sceptical.

    “It took them a week or two to boost the Slipspace abilities of a 350km station to the point where it could travel from one side of the galaxy to the other 7 million times in one second.”

    yes, BUT THEY ALREADY HAD A SLIP SPACE DRIVE. Here they don’t. they start with NOTHING. Not “virtually” nothing. They dont start in a field of alien technology, or space ikea. They start on their own, on the battle field. possibly in a swamp, or some plain, or maybe some mountains, nice little island, maybe a forest. but they don’t have anything to work with.

    “And luckily, with Tyranid travel times, “forever” is an amount of time they will likely have.”

    You are seriously underestimating Tyranid FTL, It’s not as fast as Halo FTL but hive fleet behemoth ploughed into the galaxy at a ridiculous rate. Not that it matters since there is no defined battle filed. therefore. they start in fairly close proximity.

    “These are two inter-galactic polities.”

    Entities?

    “I would assume this works like any other “universe” battle where each side as their current incarnation known assets within a “neutral galaxy.”

    Except this isn’t a universe battle. This is “race 1″ vs “race 2″ not Halo vs 40k.
    —-
    “Even if the Tyranids and Flood are given arbitrary equal amounts of forces on a random designated “neutral” planet, the Flood would still win in that they would consume 99% of the planet’s surface before the Tyranids have fully even mobilized”

    Assuming arbitrary equal amounts of forces, then the absolute minimum amount of troops would have to be the number of total different combatants one of the armies has. So if Tyranids had 20 different species they get one each (As to represent their entire fighting force). then the flood would get 20 guys in a mishmash. But included in that absolute minimum number of troops are Tyranid ships which drink the atmosphere, Flood burn.

    Assuming that they have roughly the numbers we see in their respective universes they start on one big ass neutral BankGambling planet. in which case Nid ships drink the Atmosphere, Flood burn.

    Tyranids face the issue of, at best, not being able to be infected but at the same time incapable of using Flood material.

    Why cant they use Flood material? They are made of Biomass right? Seriously i have no idea.

    Additionally, high atmosphere likely wouldn’t be safe, seeing as the Gravemind could launch Flood pods from the Ark to Installation 04B no problem. A distance of at least hundreds of kilometers if not thousands. Also, the reason sucking up FSCs would be detrimental is that they would likely be able to infect the Tyranids doing it. Meaning they no longer take orders to fly into a sun.

    I thought we were going with that they cant infect each other? Making them immune to each others macro… phage… stuff.

    You just defeated your own argument.

    i have already conceded that point, i think you are just grump, whereas i am not so grump.

    And the Flood are still infectious down to their chemical components. See the problem?

    ….. i am so glad that i never got into Halo, apparently it gets REALLY stupid. But still i thought we were arguing from a non infectious standpoint.

  73. the_man_with The_Answers January 15, 2015 at 6:06 am -      #273

    “The implication has always been that they go in to the pelican, change some stuff around and then it has slipspace capabilities, your exact wording was ” Pelican wasn’t structurally changed at all.” So they go into the pelican, do nothing, and it has slipspace capabilities. That’s magic.”

    Yes, which is “something from nothing” which is magic any way you look at it. And you somehow still seem surprised by this being the outcome of confirmation, which could have only ever have been magic.

    “And still not a addressing my point since i said nothing. and they have a pelican. You keep inserting the word virtually into my sentences. That’s an equivocation fallacy.”

    Engineers go into Pelican. Engineers stay in Pelican for a few hours. Engineers float out of the Pelican. FTL drive is now inside of Pelican. Pelican has not changed at all except for now it has an FTL drive in it. If they didn’t breakdown the Pelican, than they made it out of nothing. Or just as much “nothing” as they are going to encounter anywhere else.

    “yes, BUT THEY ALREADY HAD A SLIP SPACE DRIVE. Here they don’t. they start with NOTHING. Not “virtually” nothing. They dont start in a field of alien technology, or space ikea. They start on their own, on the battle field. possibly in a swamp, or some plain, or maybe some mountains, nice little island, maybe a forest. but they don’t have anything to work with.”

    Well by the end of the day they will have enough biomass to create a high-functioning Gravemind or Keymind in which full tactical processes can begin, so…

    “You are seriously underestimating Tyranid FTL, It’s not as fast as Halo FTL but hive fleet behemoth ploughed into the galaxy at a ridiculous rate. ”

    *Ridiculous rate for WH40K
    Tyranid FTL is slow even by Imperium standards. Not only that, but they have to drop out of FTL at a significant distance in-system and travel the rest at sub-light speeds, which could take weeks, months, or potentially even years on top of an already “staggering” time spent in FTL transit. That would be to get to a single planet. That may or may not have Flood.

    “Entities?”

    Polities = Organized Societies

    “Except this isn’t a universe battle. This is “race 1″ vs “race 2″ not Halo vs 40k.”

    Which isn’t different from saying UNSC vs Terran, which is still only two “races” but things are obviously argued from an inter-galactic stand-point.

    “Assuming arbitrary equal amounts of forces, then the absolute minimum amount of troops would have to be the number of total different combatants one of the armies has. So if Tyranids had 20 different species they get one each (As to represent their entire fighting force). then the flood would get 20 guys in a mishmash. But included in that absolute minimum number of troops are Tyranid ships which drink the atmosphere, Flood burn.”

    Maybe if you were the most bias match poster around. Your logic:
    Hmm, a neutral rule fight, shall we give the Flood 10 infection forms, 5 combat forms, 3 stalker forms, and perhaps 2 Flood Thrashers. And for the Tyranids, let’s see, how about 19 different forms, and oh yes! How about an orbital capable ship capable of soloing the whole match! What a good and neutral match up I really do ponder who would win such a spat!
    Seriously?

    “Assuming that they have roughly the numbers we see in their respective universes they start on one big ass neutral BankGambling planet. in which case Nid ships drink the Atmosphere, Flood burn.”

    Number 1
    When all assets for both sides are present in a match, when has it EVER taken place on one big planet?
    Number 2
    “Current” Flood have the ruins of High Charity and The Ark in their list of assets. The Ark alone is nearly as long and wide as Jupiter, which means a planet big enough to easily fit all of that is going to utterly crush everything due to gravity.

    “I thought we were going with that they cant infect each other? Making them immune to each others macro… phage… stuff.”

    That’s BEST case scenario for the Tyranids. And the “Tyranid’s are so totally 1337 at evolution that they can cure the uncurable no probs” argument hasn’t exactly panned through very well.

    “i have already conceded that point, i think you are just grump, whereas i am not so grump.”

    I typed that before I saw the other responses and didn’t feel it necessary to go back and edit it.

    .” i am so glad that i never got into Halo, apparently it gets REALLY stupid.”

    Coming from someone who has apparently “got into” WH40K.One of their god’s name is Nurgle for crying out loud. Seems a little hypocritical to call Halo magic stupid when WH40K magic is even more common and can be just as “bad.” Not that having “stupid” space magic stuff lessens the value of a franchise.

    “But still i thought we were arguing from a non infectious standpoint.”

    The Tyranid side would LOVE to do that. But they haven’t exactly shown that the Tyranids can adapt to something that doesn’t have a cure and is as encompassingly infectious as the Flood. The closest they’ve got is adapting to a host of diseases that are most likely otherwise curable. Which is pretty much at or below the medical level of two separate factions the Flood walked all over despite centuries of trying every solution whether it be biological, technological, or otherwise.

  74. LadyRamkin January 15, 2015 at 6:59 am -      #274

    “Yes, which is “something from nothing” which is magic any way you look at it. And you somehow still seem surprised by this being the outcome of confirmation, which could have only ever have been magic.”

    No, something from nothing was never implied, ever. Starting with a pelican. And a super advanced bio computer alien thing, it could very easily have had modifications to the already existing material to give it slipspace capabilities. But according to you the “Pelican wasn’t structurally changed at all” Which means that that pelican is EXACTLY the same as it was as when it first came of the production line, therefore you have confirmed magical aliens. Now, i freely admit that i know basically nothing about Halo, but at its most basic it is a Sci-fi universe. So either Halo is really shit, or you are misrepresenting what happened here, so could you please post the clip/passage of when that happened?

    “Engineers go into Pelican. Engineers stay in Pelican for a few hours. Engineers float out of the Pelican. FTL drive is now inside of Pelican.”

    So now there is an FTL drive in there? How “exactly” does that mean that the pelican wasn’t structurally changed????? An FTL drive is a new structure, FFS. I would still like you to post the clip/passage, just to confirm whether or not it was confirmed that the engineer didn’t use pelican parts. If a character walked in and was like “Well, it all LOOKS normal”, doesn’t mean shit.

    “Well by the end of the day they will have enough biomass to create a high-functioning Gravemind or Keymind in which full tactical processes can begin, so…”

    And that’s all well and good. Tactical processes, very important, still doesnt explain how they go about locating ore. or refining it, or casting it. or producing power. But as long as the have their tactical processes im sure they will be fine.

    “That would be to get to a single planet. That may or may not have Flood.”

    Except they start on the same planet… a very large planet but the same one nonetheless

    Which isn’t different from saying UNSC vs Terran, which is still only two “races” but things are obviously argued from an inter-galactic stand-point

    They can only be argued from an intergalactic standpoint IF an intergalactic standpoint is posited in the match description. Or if admin steps in to say so, or if we all agree that should be the case.

    “Hmm, a neutral rule fight”

    Neutral battlefield. does not effect the forces involved.

    “shall we give the Flood 10 infection forms, 5 combat forms, 3 stalker forms, and perhaps 2 Flood Thrashers”

    I posited the hypothetical, that if we forced arbitrary even number (which i didn’t say we should do) then the minimum number you could pick in order to give full representation you would have to have at least one of each type of thing. If Tyranid’s have more species. then the flood get one of each plus however many to make up the difference, if the Flood has more species then the Tyranid’s get one of each plus however many to make up the difference. I never said we should do that just that is how it would work if we tried.

    “And for the Tyranids, let’shat if we enforced even numbers see, how about 19 different forms, and oh yes! How about an orbital capable ship capable of soloing the whole match! ”

    Everything in the Tyranid arsenal is a Tyranid. Their units are Tyranids, their guns are Tyranids that are attached to other Tyranid’s. Their AMMO is Tyranid’s, and yes, even their Ships are fully fledged Tyranid creatures. And if you forced even numbers then at the very minimum the Tyranid’s would get one of those each. (still not saying we should do that)

    “What a good and neutral match up”

    I point to the Deathstar vs Bulldog argument, this does not have to be fair, (though i would like it to be as fair as possible, note: STILL not pushing the equal numbers argument.)

    I really do ponder who would win such a spat!

    Which is what i have been saying.

    “Number 1
    When all assets for both sides are present in a match, when has it EVER taken place on one big planet?”

    MTG vs WoT

    Number 2
    Current” Flood have the ruins of High Charity and The Ark in their list of assets. The Ark alone is nearly as long and wide as Jupiter, which means a planet big enough to easily fit all of that is going to utterly crush everything due to gravity.

    Very, very big planet.

    “Coming from someone who has apparently “got into” WH40K.”

    Not really, i have the 5th edition Ork and Nid codex, that’s it.

    “Seems a little hypocritical to call Halo magic stupid when WH40K magic is even more common and can be just as “bad.”

    Except 40k is an inherently magic universe. Magic is everywhere. Whereas Halo presents itself as a pure Sci-fi Then out of nowhere it goes, BTW we have magic aliens now? Im just not a fan of cross genre inconsistency one of the main reasons i don’t like Doctor Who.

    How do the Flood communicate with each other? Because the Hive mind inherently blocks psychic communication.

  75. LadyRamkin January 15, 2015 at 7:29 am -      #275

    Don’t get me wrong. If you want to go and re suggest Flood vs Tyranid’s with an actual defined battle scenario. Then im sure that the Flood will ROFL stomp. In this particular case however i just cant see them taking it.

  76. MrRyder January 15, 2015 at 6:28 pm -      #276

    Do we know how long the average afflicton of Nugle’s Rot last?

    Also, does the Flood actually winning here constitute an FP award or is it too late for that?

  77. GMoney January 15, 2015 at 7:05 pm -      #277

    Would the telepathy the Gravemind uses to communicate with its underlings be in anyway disrupted by The. Tyranids’ Shadow in The Warp?

    Also, The Flood only have 1 ship. Even if they can literally Slipspace in, drop a ton of Flood spores and Slipspace out, it is still going to take them awhile to build up numbers that can fight the Tyranids.

  78. Tyran January 15, 2015 at 7:20 pm -      #278

    Would the telepathy the Gravemind uses to communicate with its underlings be in anyway disrupted by The. Tyranids’ Shadow in The Warp?

    We have no idea how that telepathy works, it was never explained. Probably some Neural Physics stuff.

  79. the_man_with The_Answers January 15, 2015 at 8:12 pm -      #279

    “No, something from nothing was never implied, ever. Starting with a pelican. And a super advanced bio computer alien thing, it could very easily have had modifications to the already existing material to give it slipspace capabilities. But according to you the “Pelican wasn’t structurally changed at all” Which means that that pelican is EXACTLY the same as it was as when it first came of the production line, therefore you have confirmed magical aliens. Now, i freely admit that i know basically nothing about Halo, but at its most basic it is a Sci-fi universe. So either Halo is really shit, or you are misrepresenting what happened here, so could you please post the clip/passage of when that happened?”

    I don’t have The Thursday War or Mortal Dicta currently on hand (At least one of them will be reachable in ~4 days), which is where this happens. In Moral Dicta I believe Huragoks do virtually the same thing on Covenant Phantoms as well, so I’ll have to look into that.

    However, even if the Huragok were using materials in the Pelican, it implies they are fundamentally changing their chemical composition and rearranging the molecules however they please. Which they can apparently do to living tissue as well, seeing as they functioned as Covenant “doctors.” Which means that as long as they have access to any material, they can pretty much make whatever they want. Given the order to, if you placed a few Huragok in a forest they could likely “Minecraft” their way up the technological ladder in a matter of days or week. As IamTaco has said, they can make Titanium-A alloy transparent, a completely foreign property given to the alloy, and IIRC, it was done just for the sake of doing it.

    “And that’s all well and good. Tactical processes, very important, still doesnt explain how they go about locating ore. or refining it, or casting it. or producing power. But as long as the have their tactical processes im sure they will be fine.”

    Well they created power generation for the entire High Charity Station after the previous source just up and left. You could have all the Covenant alloy in the universe and you’d never be able to create something like a fusion reactor without producing other materials.

    “Except they start on the same planet… a very large planet but the same one nonetheless”

    Says absolutely nothing…

    “They can only be argued from an intergalactic standpoint IF an intergalactic standpoint is posited in the match description. Or if admin steps in to say so, or if we all agree that should be the case”

    Name me a match where two inter-galactic groups were put against each other, and with no mention of battle conditions in the OP, everyone just assumed they started with an arbitrary force on some absurdly huge planet. Go on. I’ll wait.

    “Neutral battlefield. does not effect the forces involved.”

    A neutral battlefield, as described by the BankGambling Rules:
    “Battles take place in a neutral arena appropriate to the scope of the match (i.e. stadium, facility, city, continent, planet, galaxy, universe, etc.), and it is assumed no one side will have an undue disadvantage. This neutral setting will incorporate all associated elements for all combatants to operate at maximum efficiency.”

    An “appropriate scope” for two inter-galactic races is one on a galactic scale. It incorporates all elements for the combatants to operate at maximum efficiency, IE relatively plentiful amounts of “neutral” planets with plenty of life with varying degrees to technological advancement (From zero intelligent life up to potentially nations that have control of the local few star systems, non of which would stand a chance against either the Flood or Tyranids, but just serving as a resource). Both The Warp and Slipspace would also exist.

    “I posited the hypothetical, that if we forced arbitrary even number (which i didn’t say we should do) then the minimum number you could pick in order to give full representation you would have to have at least one of each type of thing.”

    A “full representation” would require a representation of all current assets/forms in some way, and also be representative of the numerical proportions between them. However, that is extremely arbitrary and would have had to be set up in the initial rules. Otherwise, following the rules, we take their most current incarnation prior to death or incapacitation.

    ” if the Flood has more species”

    Flood don’t have species. They are literally all just varying combinations of Flood Super Cells. And outside of game model numerical limits, there are essentially infinite different forms.

    “I point to the Deathstar vs Bulldog argument, this does not have to be fair, (though i would like it to be as fair as possible, note: STILL not pushing the equal numbers argument.”

    If you create the rules yourself, things can either be arbitrarily set fair, or essentially rigged for one side. The former would be a match dictated by the feats present and how they stack up against on another. The latter is essentially decided in the poster’s head before the match is even posted, as it is the disparity in assets allotted that pull the win. The difference between a match that is settled through debate and one that is settled before it even starts. One that has a level of forethought to it against one that simply asserts that equal numbers are inherently fair (Would a team of 13 year old recreational soccer players vs Germany’s soccer team be considered anything else besides a purposefully rigged stomp, despite equal numbers?).

    “I really do ponder who would win such a spat!
    Which is what i have been saying.”

    Except you don’t. You posted your hypothetical and immediately followed it with a statement describing how the Tyranids would effortlessly win. Which means the hypothetical was created knowing the outcome already, which is extremely poor form.

    “MTG vs WoT”

    Both are essentially the the planetary scale, and thus a planet would be the most suitable stage. The Flood and Tyranids, however, are NOT restricted to the planetary scale, and employ assets well beyond that.

    “Very, very big planet.”

    Your argument keeps getting more and more absurd. You’d have to have a planet that comfortably fits something verging on the size of Jupiter. A planet so large it would have, on the low end, the surface area of 230 Earths, and the volume of 2.8 million Earths. Again, low end. A planet like that, with Earth density, would have a gravitational acceleration of essentially zero on the surface (9.6E-32 m/s^2, or a millionth of a trillionth of a trillionth of a trillionth of a Earth’s gravity, to be precise). I’ve got the calculations for that all written out if you want to see them. Which would mean simply jumping would launch you into space. Or walking. Or touching something without grabbing hold. The atmosphere would uncontrollably fly off into space, as would all surface liquids.

    Or, we could follow the rules and just put them in a neutral galaxy…

    “How do the Flood communicate with each other? Because the Hive mind inherently blocks psychic communication.”

    Hive mind linkage neural physics tom foolery?

    ” In this particular case however i just cant see them taking it.”

    In this case? This case should be the Tyranids and Flood with their known current incarnation assets located in a neutral galaxy.

    “Do we know how long the average afflicton of Nugle’s Rot last?”

    Long enough to go on some grand quest that will end up killing you apparently.

    “Would the telepathy the Gravemind uses to communicate with its underlings be in anyway disrupted by The. Tyranids’ Shadow in The Warp?”

    Do the Flood have any connection in the Warp? There’s your answer. It’s like asking if Flood slipspace disruption would effect the Tyranids.

    “Also, The Flood only have 1 ship.”

    ?

  80. GMoney January 15, 2015 at 8:22 pm -      #280

    “?”

    The Flood before going to The Ark (their last non nerfed incarnation) had High Charity. Do they have anything else?

  81. the_man_with The_Answers January 15, 2015 at 8:29 pm -      #281

    “The Flood before going to The Ark (their last non nerfed incarnation) had High Charity. Do they have anything else?”

    A Covenant ship or two, and an FTL-less Spirit of Fire if that’s the interpretation you want to go with. The Covenant ships would have to crash into a planet, but High Charity could buzz around the galaxy at insane speeds and launch Flood pods when it finds a planet. It is fast enough to go from one side of the galaxy to the other 7 million times in a single second. It only crashed on The Ark because as it turns out, traveling 2E18 lightyears at that speed was too much for the pre-existing Covenant infrastructure to handle.

  82. Neon Lord January 15, 2015 at 8:36 pm -      #282

    “Hmm, a neutral rule fight, shall we give the Flood 10 infection forms, 5 combat forms, 3 stalker forms, and perhaps 2 Flood Thrashers. And for the Tyranids, let’s see, how about 19 different forms, and oh yes! How about an orbital capable ship capable of soloing the whole match! What a good and neutral match up I really do ponder who would win such a spat!
    Seriously?”

    Why don’t we do something like that? Obviously without the ships, but it would be more fun and conclusively debatable than where this is all going. Like a side debate perhaps?

    “Which would mean simply jumping would launch you into space. Or walking. Or touching something without grabbing hold. The atmosphere would uncontrollably fly off into space, as would all surface liquids.”

    The nids can always fart themselves though zero-g :D. Their winged bio-forms must do so to travel though space.

  83. the_man_with The_Answers January 15, 2015 at 8:44 pm -      #283

    “Why don’t we do something like that? Obviously without the ships, but it would be more fun and conclusively debatable than where this is all going. Like a side debate perhaps?”

    As a side debate sure. What would the terms be?

  84. pimpmage January 15, 2015 at 9:13 pm -      #284

    You would need to limit the tyranid troop types to the extreme. Nearly all of them could easily kill flood forms.

  85. Friendlysociopath January 15, 2015 at 10:23 pm -      #285

    Question in that regard, wouldn’t Flood spores just infect the Tyranids to win from the grave?

  86. Neon Lord January 15, 2015 at 10:32 pm -      #286

    “As a side debate sure. What would the terms be?”

    A squad of all types of Tyranid infantry, and a single of each monstrous creature, excluding Titans and Hierodule-sized things, vs a collection of various similar floodforms?

    Like Rippers=Infection Forms

    Gaunts/genestealers=Human-sized flood

    Carnifexes=Whatever flood equiv there is.

  87. Neon Lord January 15, 2015 at 10:33 pm -      #287

    “Question in that regard, wouldn’t Flood spores just infect the Tyranids to win from the grave?”

    The question is if Tyranids can adapt to Flood infection; eventually if at all. So far, the evidence is leaning heavily against this possibility, but we cannot know for certain without actually putting the two against each other and watching.

  88. Friendlysociopath January 15, 2015 at 10:51 pm -      #288

    The question is if Tyranids can adapt to Flood infection; eventually if at all.

    Tyranid adaption is rapid evolution- that does nothing for the original ones killed.

  89. Neon Lord January 15, 2015 at 11:05 pm -      #289

    “Tyranid adaption is rapid evolution- that does nothing for the original ones killed.”

    It is the rapid generation of new creatures with new traits that the old didn’t have. Yes it does nothing for the original ones killed, but the Hive Mind knows what killed them and will work to try and prevent that from happening in future.

  90. IamTaco January 16, 2015 at 1:29 am -      #290

    People are really underestimating the flood’s ability to mine craft their way to victory here. The flood have control of the an entire planet, it’s not going to be a handful of flood tinkering with spare parts in their basement, it’s going to be the combined biosphere of the entire planet linked by a hyper intelligent that has done this ‘advanced from the stone age to FTL spacecraft’ numerous times.

    Earth has about a couple hundred billion tonnes of biomass. And now all of that in in control of the flood that can use it to make hundreds of billions of flood forms. Think about how much we humans have advanced over the last hundreds or so years. From the first air-plane to landing on the moon in 60 years… You put a hundred billion of us on a planet naked and you can bet that we would have a functioning civilization in a couple of years. Then think of the flood with that much biomass, those hundreds of billions of flood forms that are much stronger then a human, that don’t need to eat, that don’t need to sleep, don’t get sick, coordinate their efforts perfectly with the help of a hyper intelligent hive mind and are constantly making even better tools in which to advance themselves.

    And it’s not like they don’t have time, the tryanids take years to travel from system to system… And the flood only have to make a single FTL ship for them to spread out of control. A ship with the FTL speed of say, high charity, can get to just about any planet in the galaxy in minutes. All the ship has to do is FTL to the surface of a planet, kick a infection form out of the airlock, then FTL away to find another planet. Each new infected planet only needing a couple of days to become covered in flood and turning all it’s available biomass to help produce even more ships and advance the flood up the tech web. A single FTL flood ship could infect dozens of planets in a single day. And that’s with a single ship, the original planet that produced the ship in the first place will be churning out new ships constantly. Or they, with the FTL speeds that high charity has, could easily FTL to another galaxy millions of light years away to start the process there, far far away from the tryanids.

  91. TheSorrow January 16, 2015 at 3:30 am -      #291

    Took me sometime to locate the passage describing the differences in the Tart-Cart. Here’s what it has to say:

    “The dropship—still matted gray, but now a subtly different shape, and with more small pods protruding from her skin—looked small and lonely in the hangar.”

    “Inside, the dropship was unrecognizable except for the basic layout, nothing startling but enough to make Vaz fumble for handles and clips that were no longer there. Naomi thudded into her seat and pointed. A scaled-down version of Infinity’s real time chart appeared in the middle of the crew bay. The Huragok really had been extra-busy.” pg. 306-307 Thursday Wars.

    So essentially they fiddled around with the insides, adding upgrades that were already existing on the Infinity. I don’t know if makes any mention about actually physically adding anything to it, or just using the pre-existing material to reconstruct it from scratch.

  92. LadyRamkin January 16, 2015 at 4:48 am -      #292

    Except you don’t. You posted your hypothetical and immediately followed it with a statement describing how the Tyranids would effortlessly win. Which means the hypothetical was created knowing the outcome already, which is extremely poor form.

    I separated the hypothetical by a — and not a -which is how i indicate i am addressing something else. i suppose i could find a way to make it clearer. I in no way meant to imply that equal numbers were meant in the match or that i thought that the Nids would win based on those equal numbers.

    “flood’s ability to mine craft their way to victory”

    I like that i made that a thing.

    “So essentially they fiddled around with the insides”

    Which makes sense.

    “Both are essentially the the planetary scale”

    Except that MTG is multiversal. But they were not granted one planet for every Plane that was taking part.

    “Your argument keeps getting more and more absurd. You’d have to have a planet that comfortably fits something verging on the size of Jupiter.”

    Didnt the ark/arc? thing blow up??

  93. OberHerr January 16, 2015 at 8:26 am -      #293

    MTG vs. WoT was constricted to one area for the main battle because otherwise it would be neigh impossible to debate. The whole fight would have just been about both sides hopping through dimensions. Also, MTG vs. WoT was a VERY specific match set up made by the poster. This match has no info what so ever on what the poster wanted.

    Therefore, we assume they start, just like ever single other galactic level species fight, in the same galaxy, where slipspace and the warp both exist, and its full of Earth-like planets. Maybe have the Ark or what not depending. That’s it. There is no reason to think that they would start on the same planet, besides setting the Tyranids up to win. Never has a BankGambling fight involving two galactic level forces, unless specified by the OP, been done on just one planet.

    Just like we never use wheelchair snake, or crippled Mass Effect in these debates either…..

  94. LadyRamkin January 16, 2015 at 9:00 am -      #294

    “Just like we never use wheelchair snake, or crippled Mass Effect in these debates either…..”

    Unless specified in the match description.

  95. pimpmage January 16, 2015 at 10:12 am -      #295

    “Earth has about a couple hundred billion tonnes of biomass. And now all of that in in control of the flood that can use it to make hundreds of billions of flood forms.”

    The flood do not absorb an entire planet’s worth of biomass. You are mistaking them for the tyranids. They are the ones that eat planets. Not the flood. Also with the ‘make hundreds of billions of flood forms’ ; what do you think the tyranids will be doing? The exact same thing. Except the lowliest tyranid troop types rape the crap out of every flood form in existence tho… And then eat them.

  96. Tyran January 16, 2015 at 10:22 am -      #296

    The flood do not absorb an entire planet’s worth of biomass

    Yes they do, every living thing on the planet is infected.

  97. pimpmage January 16, 2015 at 10:31 am -      #297

    “Yes they do, every living thing on the planet is infected”

    This is a neutral universe. There are no living things besides tyranids. A planet’s biomass includes soil, oceans, forests. The tyranids eat all of that. Enough to actually make planets noticeable smaller and wipe away atmospheres. Completely different than what the flood do.

    People seem to keep dodging the fact that flood troops are absolute crap. This is completely one sided.

  98. IamTaco January 16, 2015 at 10:45 am -      #298

    @pimpmage
    Are you an idiot or something? The flood do indeed infect all the biomass on a planet. Things like soil or oceans do not count as biomass.

    Hence the hundred billion tons of biomass I mentioned earlier. If I included things like the planet’s atmosphere or the oceans, then the mass would increase to something in the order of several quadrillion tons.

    ‘People seem to keep dodging the fact that flood troops are absolute crap. This is completely one sided.’

    Humans are absolute crap. Luckily we can use and make tools like tanks. Get my point?

  99. pimpmage January 16, 2015 at 10:54 am -      #299

    “Are you an idiot or something? The flood do indeed infect all the biomass on a planet. Things like soil or oceans do not count as biomass.”

    There are no other LIVING THINGS in this neutral universe besides tyranids. Are you telling me they are absolutely fucking useless now?

    “Hence the hundred billion tons of biomass I mentioned earlier. If I included things like the planet’s atmosphere or the oceans, then the mass would increase to something in the order of several quadrillion tons.”

    Except the flood do not do that. as you have said. But the tyranids DO THAT. Mothafuckin’ uncountable numbers of tyranids produces every god fucking damn planet.

    “Humans are absolute crap. Luckily we can use and make tools like tanks. Get my point?”

    Oh goodie. Now you can post feats of flood weaponry and flood vehicles that they can make in a neutral universe with no races to steal tech from.

  100. IamTaco January 16, 2015 at 10:59 am -      #300

    ‘There are no other LIVING THINGS in this neutral universe besides tyranids. Are you telling me they are absolutely fucking useless now?’

    So your idea of a neutral universe is one where you nerf the flood to uselessness?

    ‘Except the flood do not do that. as you have said. But the tyranids DO THAT. Mothafuckin’ uncountable numbers of tyranids produces every god fucking damn planet.’

    Luckily, the flood can indeed build tools that can use common as fuck dirt and dust to make star ships. And do so much much quicker then the tryanids.

    ‘Oh goodie. Now you can post feats of flood weaponry and flood vehicles that they can make in a neutral universe with no races to steal tech from.’

    And you’ll continue to ignore my quotes and evidence again. So no thanks.

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