Tyranids Vs The Flood

Tyranids (Warhammer 40K) Vs The Flood (Halo)

Even if the numbers were equal, I just don’t see how the Flood could win this fight. The Tyranids are simply too evolved and they would be able to adapt to get the victory.

Can the Flood pull out an upset victory?

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402 Comments on "Tyranids Vs The Flood"

  1. pimpmage January 10, 2015 at 12:58 pm -      #101

    Is that comic canon? The books had him mention the flood just ignored him. Thats pretty conflicting. Whatever johnson had that was special, tyranids could adapt for their own use.

    “Also shows how strong the Flood can be in their simple combat forms, as well as a considerable amount of intelligence.”

    Bog standard genestealers have shown the ability to solo terminator space marines on dozens of occasions. I can even quote one if you want. Those things can kill space marines even with those bullet timing reaction times. Standard tyranid forces are power scaled to be much more impressive than flood.

  2. MrRyder January 10, 2015 at 2:56 pm -      #102

    I’ve heard that the Flood at their peak possessed some form of reality manipulation? Can anyone cite the extent of this and compare it to the reality warping abilities in 40k?

  3. Tyran January 10, 2015 at 5:40 pm -      #103

    Is that comic canon? The books had him mention the flood just ignored him. Thats pretty conflicting. Whatever johnson had that was special, tyranids could adapt for their own use.

    Halo doesn’t has a canon hierarchy (and is full of inconsistencies).

    I’ve heard that the Flood at their peak possessed some form of reality manipulation? Can anyone cite the extent of this and compare it to the reality warping abilities in 40k?

    They never were as reality warping as Chaos. Their reality warping comes from modifying space-time to make it incompatible with Forerunner FTL. Although I guess you could consider their generation of biomass from nowhere as reality warping.

  4. Glutinous-Bicarbonate January 10, 2015 at 6:00 pm -      #104

    Star Roads would probably be kind of a bitch tho.

  5. pimpmage January 10, 2015 at 6:10 pm -      #105

    “Halo doesn’t has a canon hierarchy (and is full of inconsistencies).”

    So he both has an immunity to the flood and he doesn’t? So if both are correct, the flood can be countered with proper genetic codes. Tyranids win with their super adaptation.

  6. GMoney January 10, 2015 at 6:42 pm -      #106

    The Tyranids have adapted to Nurgle’s Rot, a virus that infects your soul and cannot be cured by even the Eldar. It also infects Necrons, who couldn’t cure it. They’ve also adapted to Virus bombs. I think they will be able to adapt to the Flood

  7. Neon Lord January 10, 2015 at 7:07 pm -      #107

    “They’ve also adapted to Virus bombs. ”

    They have not actually adaped to the virus itself. They evolved burrowing and deep hibernation tactics to survive the ensuing atmospheric ignition.

  8. Tyran January 10, 2015 at 7:37 pm -      #108

    Well yes, if someone can adapt to the Flood are the Nids.

  9. the_man_with The_Answers January 10, 2015 at 8:39 pm -      #109

    “Is that comic canon?”

    Yes, it is from the Halo Graphic Novel as seen in the first few seconds of the video.
    www.halopedia.org/Breaking_Quarantine

    Johnson mentioned that “The Flood ignored him” once in Halo:First Strike. But this comic is newer than First Strike, as well as it gives a picture of the actual event instead of a character’s short phrase about it.

    “Bog standard genestealers have shown the ability to solo terminator space marines on dozens of occasions. I can even quote one if you want. Those things can kill space marines even with those bullet timing reaction times. Standard tyranid forces are power scaled to be much more impressive than flood.”

    But they lack the capability to infect Flood, and don’t particularly look or seem to have traits that would allow them resistance to infection. Which means close-quarters brawls while significantly outnumbered are going to end with a high chance of being scratched, or bitten, or otherwise infected.

    “So he both has an immunity to the flood and he doesn’t? So if both are correct, the flood can be countered with proper genetic codes. Tyranids win with their super adaptation.”

    It’s a few off-hand statements about an event versus the actual event taking place before out eyes. Which sounds like a better source to you, especially knowing the latter is newer?

    Furthermore, the Forerunners and all of their genetic and biological mastery couldn’t find a single solution to the Flood. No cure, no anti-Flood virus, no antibodies. The Flood infects on more than a biological level. It can infect metaphysically as well. So I don’t see why the Tyranids would be capable of out-doing the Flood in this sense.
    Tyranids seem to be much more “Overwhelm them with our own numbers” as opposed to the Flood which are more “overwhelm them with their own numbers.”

    “The Tyranids have adapted to Nurgle’s Rot, a virus that infects your soul and cannot be cured by even the Eldar. It also infects Necrons, who couldn’t cure it.”

    Prove it. Because every bit of information I look up on it seems to be leaning towards “Well we don’t really know, but it will probably end pretty badly for the Tyranids.”
    -

  10. Tyran January 10, 2015 at 9:12 pm -      #110

    “Prove it. Because every bit of information I look up on it seems to be leaning towards “Well we don’t really know, but it will probably end pretty badly for the Tyranids.”

    It happened in the battle of Shadowbrink, the Tyranids became immune to all the diseases Nurgle used against them. Fluff wise, at this point the Tyranids are like the natural counter to Chaos.

    TBH, the Tyranids are better than the Forerunners when it comes to bio-tech.

  11. MrRyder January 10, 2015 at 9:45 pm -      #111

    “They never were as reality warping as Chaos. Their reality warping comes from modifying space-time to make it incompatible with Forerunner FTL. Although I guess you could consider their generation of biomass from nowhere as reality warping.”

    So what’s the advantage against the Tyranids? I’ve heard this new ability cited before in another Flood vs Tyranid fight.

  12. pimpmage January 10, 2015 at 9:56 pm -      #112

    “But they lack the capability to infect Flood, and don’t particularly look or seem to have traits that would allow them resistance to infection. Which means close-quarters brawls while significantly outnumbered are going to end with a high chance of being scratched, or bitten, or otherwise infected.”

    You mean like analysing previous generations and adapting to what is infecting them? They don’t need to infect. They just adapt and consume. Abuse the biomass the flood will attack with.

    “Which sounds like a better source to you, especially knowing the latter is newer?”

    IMO, that comic just seems like its taking a shit on legitimate plot for the sake of action. It didn’t even show Cdr Keyes at all. I also remember in another book, the chick that created cortana, she talked about the radiation diseases that johnson had. That it messed with his nervous system to make him immune or invisible to the flood. There is also that to take into account.

    “Tyranids seem to be much more “Overwhelm them with our own numbers” as opposed to the Flood which are more “overwhelm them with their own numbers.”

    More like, Overwhelm, analyze, adapt, overwhelm, analyze, adapt; all in less than a day. The ultrasmurf books give a good account on how they alter themselves to be born with wings/more body fat/harder chitin, etc within a few hours. Their hive mind is watching the fight and adapting the next wave while the first wave is still engaging.

    “Tyranids are like the natural counter to Chaos.”

    Man, its so weird to see the imperium’s natural enemies fighting each other. Like chaos fighting orks or necrons. Chaos knows those other races are detrimental to the imperium, so why fight against them? Just let them go about their business.

  13. Tyran January 10, 2015 at 9:57 pm -      #113

    If you are talking of the Flood at their “peak”(aka, during the Flood-Forerunner war), then their advantage are the Star Roads, to which the Tyranids have no answer.

  14. the_man_with The_Answers January 11, 2015 at 6:15 pm -      #114

    “It happened in the battle of Shadowbrink, the Tyranids became immune to all the diseases Nurgle used against them.”

    That’s not a source

    “TBH, the Tyranids are better than the Forerunners when it comes to bio-tech.”

    Forerunner equivalents to T-shirts and jeans have orders of magnitude more medical capabilities than every medical resource on the planet today combined.

    “You mean like analysing previous generations and adapting to what is infecting them? They don’t need to infect. They just adapt and consume. Abuse the biomass the flood will attack with.”

    Which is quite the stretch to believe considering the Forerunners never figured that out after centuries of intense study. They came up with a way to kill all life in the galaxy simultaneously before they figured out a cure for the Flood.

    “IMO, that comic just seems like its taking a shit on legitimate plot for the sake of action.”

    Which is like, your opinion.

    ” It didn’t even show Cdr Keyes at all.”

    Who was likely, at that point, infected and otherwise indistinguishable, or otherwise taken away for the information he held. His appearance would have made zero impact regardless.

    “I also remember in another book, the chick that created cortana, she talked about the radiation diseases that johnson had. That it messed with his nervous system to make him immune or invisible to the flood. There is also that to take into account.”

    Herp. That was also First Strike. Derp. That “radiation disease” and “messed up neurological system” was a cover-up for the SPARTAN-I/ORION augmentations Johnson received much earlier in his career, and some of the less than ideal side-effects from said augmentations.

    “More like, Overwhelm, analyze, adapt, overwhelm, analyze, adapt; all in less than a day.”

    Which is why they take ~50 days to accomplish what the Flood do in 1…

    “The ultrasmurf books give a good account on how they alter themselves to be born with wings/more body fat/harder chitin, etc within a few hours. Their hive mind is watching the fight and adapting the next wave while the first wave is still engaging”

    Like the Gravemind/Keymind isn’t always watching and creating new Pure Forms to suite his needs? Even with the numerical limitation on the number of Flood models in Halo 3, we can see Pure Forms changing on the fly (within seconds), much less “for the second wave.”

    -

  15. pimpmage January 11, 2015 at 8:32 pm -      #115

    “Which is like, your opinion.”

    Hence the IMO. Are you angry about something? You seem to be angry. And I don’t want you turning into another Mal.

    “Which is quite the stretch to believe considering the Forerunners never figured that out after centuries of intense study. They came up with a way to kill all life in the galaxy simultaneously before they figured out a cure for the Flood.”

    They didn’t. That does not mean it is absolutely impossible for any other fictional universe to cure it. Given forerunner tech, I don’t really see how they didn’t stop the flood from the beginning.

    “His appearance would have made zero impact regardless.”

    Yes it would. It would have anchored that short comic into book lore. Why else would I point out keyes was non existent? You take everything I am saying at face value, and its kinda getting old.

    “Which is why they take ~50 days to accomplish what the Flood do in 1…”

    The heck you talking about? Tyranids can spawn several waves of newly adapted creatures within a day’s time. Maybe like 12 hours min. We are talking about bioengineering hundreds of thousands of years of evolution within a few hours.

    “Like the Gravemind/Keymind isn’t always watching and creating new Pure Forms to suite his needs?”

    Standard tyranid troops can be power scaled to be above flood. Heck, in that comic you posted, that flood form could not even seriously injure johnson after whacking him across the room. I am absolutely sure tyranids could find a cure to flood forms and even create natural resistances for all it’s hive ships and troops. The flood can just be drowned in bodies and consumed back into tyranid materials.

  16. GMoney January 11, 2015 at 9:26 pm -      #116

    “That’s not a source”

    wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Fall_of_Shadowbrink
    warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Nurgle%27s_Rot

    “Which is quite the stretch to believe considering the Forerunners never figured that out after centuries of intense study. They came up with a way to kill all life in the galaxy simultaneously before they figured out a cure for the Flood.”

    The Forerunners never adapted to a soul-infecting virus. As I said before, Tyranid adaptation is ludicrous.

    “Which is why they take ~50 days to accomplish what the Flood do in 1…”

    That’s only when a world is resisting. And they don’t just corrupt the biosphere like the flood, they strip everything, down to the crust. And what is Post-Halo Fireing Flood’s track record anyway? If I recall correctly, they were pushed off Earth by factions much less advanced or numerous than the Imperium.

  17. the_man_with The_Answers January 11, 2015 at 9:34 pm -      #117

    “Hence the IMO. Are you angry about something? You seem to be angry. And I don’t want you turning into another Mal.”

    I’m never angry. If that’s how my posts come across then it’s an unintended side-effect. It’s why I don’t enjoy debating in person, because other people tend to get angry, and that ruins my own fun. Online I can just pretend everyone is happy, or sarcastic, or mildly annoyed.

    “They didn’t. That does not mean it is absolutely impossible for any other fictional universe to cure it. Given forerunner tech, I don’t really see how they didn’t stop the flood from the beginning.”

    Because the Flood isn’t merely biological and can alter DNA subtly while only being simple lifeless organic molecules. It can infect AIs and infect bodies with only the Flood consciousness being present from within. They aren’t your run of the mill space zombies.

    “Yes it would. It would have anchored that short comic into book lore.”

    I don’t follow. The angle of the comic panels not showing Keyes doesn’t have anything to do with being “anchored” to the “book lore.” This is literally the only depiction of that scene past the few seconds we see at the end of Jenkin’s helmet cam back in 2001.

    “The heck you talking about? Tyranids can spawn several waves of newly adapted creatures within a day’s time. Maybe like 12 hours min. We are talking about bioengineering hundreds of thousands of years of evolution within a few hours.”

    Hundreds of thousands, hell, even millions or billions of years of evolution will not allow something to adapt against something that is 100% lethal 100% of the time.

    “Standard tyranid troops can be power scaled to be above flood. Heck, in that comic you posted, that flood form could not even seriously injure johnson after whacking him across the room. I am absolutely sure tyranids could find a cure to flood forms and even create natural resistances for all it’s hive ships and troops. The flood can just be drowned in bodies and consumed back into tyranid materials.”

    Yes, the utter most basic Flood forms were having a hard time trying to kill a special forces super soldier. Not only do the Flood make MUCH more powerful forms, that also has nothing to do for proof of concept for the Tyranids creating a cure for the Flood.

    We’re talking about something that, existing only as lifeless organic molecules, can alter your DNA. Something so hard to find a cure for that even after centuries of research by a race who can casually make new species, wears “casual clothing” vastly more medically capable of anything on this planet combined, and have endless resources to throw at the problem, no cure was even close to being found. Something that can infect a host without any of its cells even touching it, infecting by the sheer presence of its consciousness.

    “The flood can just be drowned in bodies and consumed back into tyranid materials.”

    Considering the Flood infect far faster on both the microbiological and global scales, that’s extremely unlikely. And even at it’s fundamental molecules the Flood is still infectious.

  18. the_man_with The_Answers January 11, 2015 at 9:52 pm -      #118

    “The Forerunners never adapted to a soul-infecting virus. As I said before, Tyranid adaptation is ludicrous”

    You defeated your own argument by giving me access to your sources. Nurgle’s various plagues are so effective because they corrode at the soul. Which Tyranids don’t have…

    Flood don’t work that way. Souls don’t exist in Halo, and the Flood has been shown to be more than capable of infecting things “without souls” such as machines.

    “That’s only when a world is resisting. ”

    Which is all that matters considering the Flood could wipe out almost the entire population of a planet in a few hours save for a few pockets of resistance and one particular location that was extremely heavily guarded. The former locations being expected to be totally wiped out in 9 hours, the latter location expected only to last about a week or so. This is against the Forerunners.

    ” If I recall correctly, they were pushed off Earth by factions much less advanced or numerous than the Imperium.”

    A single landed Flood ship warranted the glassing of a 900km^2 area MINIMUM (Half a continent, Africa in particular, on the high end), after only ~30 minutes. The Flood completely took over High Charity, the single most well-armed and well-defended location in Post-Halo firing Halo, in an hour or two. With a single Flood infected frigate. The Flood has been the biggest threat in Halo since ever. The only reason they haven’t raped stomped everything is due to the fact that the protagonist of the Xbox console blows whatever they are standing on to smithereans before you can even say “Hey look!”
    -

  19. Tyran January 11, 2015 at 11:07 pm -      #119

    Forerunner equivalents to T-shirts and jeans have orders of magnitude more medical capabilities than every medical resource on the planet today combined.

    I never said that the Forerunner’s bio-tech isn’t advanced. Yes it is very advanced, it is thousand of years ahead of ours, hell, it is thousand of years ahead of the IoM. But the Forerunners don’t make space ships and FTL with bio-tech, but the Tyranids do.

    They didn’t. That does not mean it is absolutely impossible for any other fictional universe to cure it. Given forerunner tech, I don’t really see how they didn’t stop the flood from the beginning.

    The Forerunners never got the chance to stop the Flood early, as the Flood had devoured a considerable portion of Humanity.

  20. OberHerr January 11, 2015 at 11:34 pm -      #120

    The Tyranids naturally mess-up anything warp-related due to the Hivemind.

    They block warp travel, psyker attacks, daemons, etc.

    Blocking a warp-based disease, one directly from Nurgle no less would make a lot of sense. But its not necessarily proof that they could become immune to the Flood. The fact that they haven’t become immune to the Life Eater virus seems to favor the Flood being able to infect them.

    And also, if they CAN be infected, the Tyranids eating everything in their path would bode poorly for them. I could see the Flood using that to their advantage, at least at first. I assume the ‘Nids would stop eventually.

    Both sides ARE intelligent, and omniscient more or less in regards to their forces whereabouts and situations.

    And dear god the first 40 posts in this thread are painful.

  21. the_man_with The_Answers January 11, 2015 at 11:36 pm -      #121

    “I never said that the Forerunner’s bio-tech isn’t advanced. Yes it is very advanced, it is thousand of years ahead of ours, hell, it is thousand of years ahead of the IoM. But the Forerunners don’t make space ships and FTL with bio-tech, but the Tyranids do.”

    That’s completely circumstantial and unrelated to being better than the Forerunners efforts to cure the Flood. IN Halo, FTL is achieved via access to slipspace, something that can only be achieved in-universe through technologically created devices. If I’m not mistaken, FTL in Warhammer is via the warp, which does have biological ties.

    The Flood, however, DO use “bio-tech” to expand upon existing infrastructure for FTL purposes. The Gravemind took over High Charity, upgraded it himself, and used it to travel far beyond its original capability, significantly outside the galaxy and to The Ark.

    Let me put that into some more perspective. Accepted Covenant FTL is about 912ly/d. The Ark is located 2E18ly away from the galactic center of the Milky Way. Conventionally it would take the Covenant 6 TRILLION YEARS to travel to The Ark.

    The Battle of High Charity officially ended November 3rd 2552 so lets say that the Gravemind upgraded the station in a week, meaning he left for The Ark on November 10th 2552. High Charity arrived at The Ark during the Battle of Installation 00, which took place on December 11th 2552. That means it took the Gravemind 31 days to cross 2E18ly. Giving his upgraded High Charity an FTL speed of 6.45E16ly/d, or 64,500 TRILLION ly/DAY. Which means he upgraded Covenant drives to be nearly 71 TRILLION times faster than what they were before.

    The Flood are mind-blowingly more FTL capable than the Tyranids will ever be. Knowing that, it isn’t exactly hard to see why the Flood got out of control so fast, as with a Gravemind and a little spare time, they can pop up anywhere in the galaxy in a tiny fraction of a second, in force.

  22. the_man_with The_Answers January 11, 2015 at 11:42 pm -      #122

    “The fact that they haven’t become immune to the Life Eater virus seems to favor the Flood being able to infect them.”

    Thanks Ober. And the chink in the Tyranid armor is found. Like I said, you can’t evolve to protect against something that is 100% lethal 100% of the time. That just isn’t how evolution works.

  23. OberHerr January 11, 2015 at 11:58 pm -      #123

    A lot of Nurgle’s diseases aren’t meant to kill, but cause a lot of pain, or just be all diseasy. Sometimes they cause beneficial effects. Nurgle is funny like that. Sometimes they kill, but take awhile.

    They are potent, don’t get me wrong. Astartes are suppose to be immune as fuck to that kind of stuff, and look what happen to the Deathwatch(For those not in the know: Nurgleases was SUPER effective). But once again, Life Eater virus conquers all even with the Astartes, who aside from Nurgle stuff, are immune to almost all illness.

    So they could have plenty of time to become immune to said diseases. While with the Flood….it just takes over and replaces everything with the Flood Super Cell. Like the Life Eater virus, but less eating, and more replacing.

    Of course correct me on the Life Eater thing if I’m wrong.

  24. pimpmage January 12, 2015 at 12:10 am -      #124

    “The fact that they haven’t become immune to the Life Eater virus seems to favor the Flood being able to infect them.”

    When has the life eater virus ever been used on tyranids? Besides, at the rate the life eater virus can consume a planet with a proper bombardment, I doubt there would by any sort of surviving and adapting from that. And seeing as bombarding a planet leaves ships particularly vulnerable, bombarding ships would mean there are no tyranid ships in orbit to stop them. =No acting hive mind in system that can analyze and adapt after recovering.

    “Thanks Ober. And the chink in the Tyranid armor is found. Like I said, you can’t evolve to protect against something that is 100% lethal 100% of the time.”

    You keep saying 100% like it means anything. The western world has become immune to many viruses that have a high chance of a fatal interaction with a secluded race of humans. You ever see videos of modern humans discovering remote tribes in the rainforest? And how contact with tribes more than likely kills them off with just virus transmissions alone.

  25. the_man_with The_Answers January 12, 2015 at 12:34 am -      #125

    “You keep saying 100% like it means anything. The western world has become immune to many viruses that have a high chance of a fatal interaction with a secluded race of humans.”

    Except those viruses take days, if not weeks to fully develop and kill a single person. They also don’t generally have 100% mortality rates. Which means that, through evolution (the process you say is so accelerated for the Tyranids), a virus that has a 70% mortality rate will leave 30% of infected individuals still alive, for which those individuals could have had some sort of genetic immunity or resistance. They then go on to reproduce and spread those genes to their offspring. So the virus hits this newer population, and maybe 40% survive this time. And so on. That is how evolution works. If a virus comes along and kills 100% of a population, there is 0% chance anyone survived with some form of genetic advantage.

    If I take a population of people, and every hundred thousand years I take 50% of their population and shoot them in the forehead with a .50 caliber rifle, every single one of them is going to die. Meaning after millions of times repeating this process, not one human, through the power of evolution, is going to survive being shot in the head by such a weapon.

    “And how contact with tribes more than likely kills them off with just virus transmissions alone.”

    Which is a massively smaller population than what fought the virus initially. And we didn’t “evolve” an immunity to those viruses we kill them with, we used technology to make vaccines against said viruses.

    Hell, even the Spanish Flu, for all it’s lethality, only had a ~20% mortality rate. The Flood, on the other hand, has a 100% “mortality rate” against everything it has come up against. Even against Ancient Humanity, who programmed their own genetic code to essentially activate the killswitch in Flood Super Cells (Cell Apoptosis). That didn’t work.

  26. TheSorrow January 12, 2015 at 4:30 am -      #126

    Well there is one example of someone resisting the Flood infection. That being Sgt. Johnson, not that the Tyranids are known to replicate such a rare condition, but still relevant.

  27. MrRyder January 12, 2015 at 5:24 am -      #127

    “And dear god the first 40 posts in this thread are painful.”

    For saying that the Tyranids would straight up win this fight? Wasn’t that a time when the Forerunners and Flood at their peak were unquantifiable?

  28. Neon Lord January 12, 2015 at 7:53 am -      #128

    “The fact that they haven’t become immune to the Life Eater virus seems to favor the Flood being able to infect them.”

    Primarily because their was no genetic material available to adapt to. The lifespan of the virus itself is extremely short, and any surviving virus is wiped out by the atmospheric ignition immediately afterwards. Whilst Flood also has 100% infection, it leaves something around to analyse afterwards and potentially adapt to.

  29. IamTaco January 12, 2015 at 8:46 am -      #129

    ‘Well there is one example of someone resisting the Flood infection. That being Sgt. Johnson, not that the Tyranids are known to replicate such a rare condition, but still relevant.’

    The comic retconned that I think. He merely avoided getting hit by any flood infection forms rather then being immune to them.

    And it doesn’t matter anyway, issues like this, on the subject on infections and the like is pointless, you can argue due the heat death of the universe and you will never come to a conclusion.

    Both races have good amounts of biowank to their name… Hard to know who infects who if they aren’t real and we can’t see the results first hand.

    In this match it doesn’t matter anyway. It’s simple, it the tryanids and the flood start on the same planet or the same star system, the flood lose as simple as that.

    If they start a couple of light years apart and the flood have a couple of FTL ships then the flood win.Their infection rates with some FTL ships will be ridiculously fast compared to the nids and with enough planets and time, the flood can just tech up to their old precursor technology and form and go stomp the nids that way.

  30. Tyran January 12, 2015 at 10:24 am -      #130

    That’s completely circumstantial and unrelated to being better than the Forerunners efforts to cure the Flood. IN Halo, FTL is achieved via access to slipspace, something that can only be achieved in-universe through technologically created devices. If I’m not mistaken, FTL in Warhammer is via the warp, which does have biological ties.

    Tyranids don’t use the Warp, their FTL is based around the warping of space-time through gravity.
    Essentially what Star Trek FTL does IIRC.

    The Flood, however, DO use “bio-tech” to expand upon existing infrastructure for FTL purposes. The Gravemind took over High Charity, upgraded it himself, and used it to travel far beyond its original capability, significantly outside the galaxy and to The Ark.

    I doubt Flood used “bio-tech” for that, but rather more “conventional” tech by modifying High Charity thank to their Precursor knowledge.

  31. LadyRamkin January 12, 2015 at 10:46 am -      #131

    So, this match has no battlefield set. so it takes place in a neutral BankGambling universe with a merged timeline. where are the flood going to get forerunner tech? Or any tech for that matter?

  32. pimpmage January 12, 2015 at 11:15 am -      #132

    I have ask l absolutely no clue why the flood would get tech that they never created. The tyranids don’t get any outside help, so why should the flood? The flood can’t even move through space our leave an atmosphere without outside help.

  33. IamTaco January 12, 2015 at 11:20 am -      #133

    ‘So, this match has no battlefield set. so it takes place in a neutral BankGambling universe with a merged timeline. where are the flood going to get forerunner tech? Or any tech for that matter?’

    Same way everybody gets their technology,by making it themselves.

    You know the Huragok? Biological supercomputers that are able to alter matter on a molecular scale and able to build very complex devices extremely fast. Notable feats are: being able to build a slipspace drive in a handful of hours in a room, with nothing but ordinary tools and materials, also being able to alter the molecular composition of titanium A to make it transplant without using tools.

    This engineers are more or few completely biological and many of them have been consumed by the flood before. So the flood are able to produce flood-Huragok. The flood have successfully upgraded stolen technology before, see high charity, where they upgraded it’s slipspace drive to many times it’s original speed.

    Imagine a floodied planet, it’s entire biosphere converted to trillions of hive mind linked flood-Huragok slowly building tools to build even better tools to build even better tools and so on and so forth. Until they end up at forerunner level technology.

    Do note, the precusors have done this before.

    ‘“The Precursors lived in many shapes, flesh and spirit, primitive and advanced, spacefaring and locked to their worlds … Evolved over and over again, died away, were reborn, explored, and seeded many galaxies … This I was told. I understand little.’

    They have purposely devolved themselves to the stone age and crawled back into their former glory…

  34. IamTaco January 12, 2015 at 11:46 am -      #134

    ‘Q: How was High charity able to get to the Ark in a timely manner? The only way it could have done so was the Voi Portal, but High Charity was much bigger than that portal. So how was it able to do this? If it went through Voi, why did the Gravemind not throw down billions upon billions of flood forms on earth while it was there?
    – BaconShelf

    A: The Flood-infested High Charity never entered Earth’s atmosphere, and did not transit the Portal at Voi. However, the Gravemind did become aware of Earth’s Portal – and thus the danger that the Lesser Ark still posed to his plans – as soon as he arrived in the Sol system. His modifications to High Charity were far-reaching, both to keep the facility functioning after the departure of the Keyship, and to better serve as a mobile plagueship from which he could sing victory everlasting in a galaxy consumed of thinking life. But even with an intellect impossibly vast and deep, able to twist the technologies of the Covenant far beyond their original functionality by application of esoteric Precursor science, the ancient abomination was unable to both conduct a desperate bridging maneuver to the Ark and maintain the structural integrity of High Charity after its arrival.’

    www.halowaypoint.com/en-us/community/bulletins/the-halo-bulletin-knowledge-drop

    Oh look, the flood again somehow managing to mess around with technology.

  35. LadyRamkin January 12, 2015 at 12:31 pm -      #135

    “Huragok”

    But they are not present, its a neutral universe

    “by making it themselves”

    How?

    “Oh look, the flood again somehow managing to mess around with technology.”

    That wont be present, its a neutral universe.

  36. Tyran January 12, 2015 at 1:14 pm -      #136

    How?

    With their tentacles :P

  37. the_man_with The_Answers January 12, 2015 at 1:28 pm -      #137

    “Well there is one example of someone resisting the Flood infection. That being Sgt. Johnson, not that the Tyranids are known to replicate such a rare condition, but still relevant.”

    Somebody didn’t read comment 109 and 114…

    ” Whilst Flood also has 100% infection, it leaves something around to analyse afterwards and potentially adapt to.”

    Which, without labs and what not, you can only do so through direct contact as far as I’m aware. And the Flood infect hosts in a matter of seconds.

    “In this match it doesn’t matter anyway. It’s simple, it the tryanids and the flood start on the same planet or the same star system, the flood lose as simple as that.”

    Really? Because the Flood will be a global infection before the Tyranids have left their “local” area. It becomes an extreme uphill battle where the Tyranids become vastly outnumbered. We’re talking about something that can take full control of a Forerunner planet in under a day. Tyranids take nearly 2 months to do the same thing under less resistance.

    “I doubt Flood used “bio-tech” for that, but rather more “conventional” tech by modifying High Charity thank to their Precursor knowledge.”

    Precursor Knowledge being “neural physics” which is intrinsically related to life.

    “I have ask l absolutely no clue why the flood would get tech that they never created. The tyranids don’t get any outside help, so why should the flood? The flood can’t even move through space our leave an atmosphere without outside help.”

    Because they acquired it themselves and it is in their total possession? Chief didn’t make his armor himself, so by that logic he shouldn’t have it, or any of his weapons. Same goes for pretty much any character.

    “But they are not present, its a neutral universe”

    But substantial amounts of them have already likely been consumed on High Charity and the other Covenant ships they got their tentacles on.

    “That wont be present, its a neutral universe.”

    What does that even mean? High Charity is an asset the Flood have acquired, then modified themselves. Why wouldn’t they have it? Why wouldn’t they retain their innate ability to apply Precursor knowledge to vastly upgrade their acquired assets?

  38. IamTaco January 12, 2015 at 1:28 pm -      #138

    ‘But they are not present, its a neutral universe’

    The flood can make biological copies of them with biomass, just like how they can make copies of people they have consumed.

    ‘How?’

    How have we come all the way from apes standing around from the mud to being able to land on the moon? We use tools. The flood can build and use tools much better then us. Look at my quotes again. They have done this before, gone from stone age to a technological level even greater then the forerunners.

    ‘That wont be present, its a neutral universe.’

    The point was that although the flood look and act like primate zombies sometimes, they are extremely advanced and can work with technology really well. Again, they don’t have the technology at hand. What they do have, is the biomass of an entire planet, a hyper intelligent hive mind, a planet full of raw materials, lots of time and a form of molecular altering engineer that can do this.

    ‘Parangosky counted seven Huragok drifting around the compartment, all utterly absorbed with modifying the controls. Their tentacles fascinated
    her. The tiny cilia on the tips were a blur as they worked, like flagella on microscopic protozoa. The panel they were working on changed right
    before her eyes, rebuilt molecule by molecule at astonishing speed.’

    ‘If the Huragok could dismantle and rebuild armor in under a minute, there was no telling what they’d managed to do to the dropship in the last couple of hours’

  39. the_man_with The_Answers January 12, 2015 at 1:32 pm -      #139

    I believe it was in Glasslands, or Thursday War, but didn’t a Huragok give a Pelican dropship slipspace capabilities rivaling or exceeding that of Covenant ships, in only a short period of time?

  40. IamTaco January 12, 2015 at 1:40 pm -      #140

    The thursday war, a couple of Huragok in their spare time completely refitted a Pelican with a slipspace drive and instant FTL slipspace comms. And they had no access to any special materials or tools.

    And in mortal dictata, a Huragok managed to alter the molecular structure of titanium A to render it completely transplant, while barehanded…

  41. the_man_with The_Answers January 12, 2015 at 1:42 pm -      #141

    ” transplant,”

    Transparent?

  42. IamTaco January 12, 2015 at 1:47 pm -      #142

    Yep, spelling error.

    My point still stands though, the flood can use their supply of biomass to create tons of Huragok. Then use those Huragok to slowly/rapidly advance though the tech tree until they are at forerunner level.

    Then they crush the nids.

    The nid’s FTL also means that the flood has years to prepare. They will take years to get to one system to the next.

  43. pimpmage January 12, 2015 at 1:58 pm -      #143

    Wasn’t high charity destroyed? I can’t think of any technological assets the flood currently have in the latest incarnation. Weren’t they pretty much contained in the current era?

  44. IamTaco January 12, 2015 at 2:08 pm -      #144

    ‘Wasn’t high charity destroyed? I can’t think of any technological assets the flood currently have in the latest incarnation. Weren’t they pretty much contained in the current era?’

    And again, the flood don’t really need additional technological assets. Give the flood a single biomass rich planet and they are good to go.

  45. the_man_with The_Answers January 12, 2015 at 2:14 pm -      #145

    “Wasn’t high charity destroyed? I can’t think of any technological assets the flood currently have in the latest incarnation. Weren’t they pretty much contained in the current era?”

    Similarly how we don’t put Snake into matches in a wheelchair, or Mass Effect in fights after the ending(s), combatants are put into battles in their most recent incarnation that is still combat able.

    Which for the Flood you sort of have two options based on interpretation.

    Option A being the Flood at the very end of Halo 2, which includes having upgraded High Charity as well as small fleet of infected Covenant ships.
    Option B, the Flood midway through Halo 3, which gives them maybe a few infected Covenant ships, crashed High Charity (Not flying again for awhile if ever), but they are well established on The Ark, which gives them access to unimaginable resources as well as being millions of trillions of lightyears outside of the galaxy.

    So take your pick.

  46. pimpmage January 12, 2015 at 2:19 pm -      #146

    Dude, the current era of flood has unknown numbers. I am sure they exist in many places in the galaxy behind locked doors. They are most definitely not in any sort of post final battle incarnation. They just don’t have transportation.

  47. the_man_with The_Answers January 12, 2015 at 2:26 pm -      #147

    “Dude, the current era of flood has unknown numbers. I am sure they exist in many places in the galaxy behind locked doors. They are most definitely not in any sort of post final battle incarnation. They just don’t have transportation.”

    There is… 1 infection form that is known to exist, seen on an evacuated Spirit of Fire in a single panel of a comic…

    There might be some Flood on Installation 07 but that is completely unknown. Everything else is pure conjecture, and at that point it is equally valid to say that there are other galaxies teeming with Flood because they were an extra-galactic presence to begin with.

    And like I said before, we don’t make Commander Shepard fight in his bleeding out state at the end of ME3. We don’t make Snake fight as a crippled old man. We don’t debate Halo from the year 2580. We take the latest incarnation that we know hard numbers for and doesn’t put them at an extreme disadvantage.

  48. pimpmage January 12, 2015 at 2:37 pm -      #148

    An extreme disadvantage is no matter when posting matches. Remember that bull dog vs the death star? You don’t see people giving that bull dog powers cosmic do you? I don’t want people like you trying to prove the splazer is chief’s standard equipment. That was an example of how I see this debate do far.

  49. Friendlysociopath January 12, 2015 at 2:59 pm -      #149

    You don’t see people giving that bull dog powers cosmic do you?

    The difference being that the bull dog never had powers cosmic while the Flood did have some toys.

  50. IamTaco January 12, 2015 at 2:59 pm -      #150

    I find it funny that you’ll have to nerf the flood that much to give the tryanids a chance. How the mighty have fallen.

    Very well then. Current flood are in possession of the spirit of fire,last seen difting towards a planet, and are held on various forerunner facilities

    The flood land the spirit of fire on the planet. Fix it’s FTL drive then go to the other halos where the other flood specimens are kept, then use the halos to kill off the tryanids. Happy?

  51. pimpmage January 12, 2015 at 3:09 pm -      #151

    I have to nerf the flood? They nerfed themselves because their plot stupidity. They were completely incompetent against any force they fought in the latter halo verse time. Heck, their entire race was locked behind metal doors for millenia. Maybe I should post a match, flood vs a locked door? Door would stomp. It’s not even worth posting.

  52. Tyran January 12, 2015 at 3:13 pm -      #152

    I have to nerf the flood? They nerfed themselves because their plot stupidity. They were completely incompetent against any force they fought in the latter halo verse time. Heck, their entire race was locked behind metal doors for millenia. Maybe I should post a match, flood vs a locked door? Door would stomp. It’s not even worth posting.

    They curbstomped any force they fought.

  53. IamTaco January 12, 2015 at 3:15 pm -      #153

    ‘I have to nerf the flood? They nerfed themselves because their plot stupidity. They were completely incompetent against any force they fought in the latter halo verse time. Heck, their entire race was locked behind metal doors for millenia. Maybe I should post a match, flood vs a locked door? Door would stomp. It’s not even worth posting.’

    Looks like your butthurt is showing… Very well then sir. You go command the flood, tell us of your superior plan to go wipe out the UNSC and the covenant. Show us your tactical brilliance.

    Oh and btw, how would you do against a locked door? Not so well I suppose, unless you can singe handily tear metal doors apart with your bare hands. And a door is such a general term,a door could be the greatest technological item ever ever…

  54. pimpmage January 12, 2015 at 3:16 pm -      #154

    Like master chief? They most definitely curb stomped that mortal right?

  55. pimpmage January 12, 2015 at 3:19 pm -      #155

    “I find it funny that you’ll have to nerf the flood that much to give the tryanids a chance. How the mighty have fallen.”

    “Looks like your butthurt is showing”

    This irony… it makes me cringe.

  56. Tyran January 12, 2015 at 3:26 pm -      #156

    Master Chief has canonical plot shields, he is lucky remember :P

    And is not like the Tyranids hadn’t suffered the same, plot hates them.

  57. IamTaco January 12, 2015 at 3:28 pm -      #157

    50% plot, 50% failing to understand that the flood aren’t super soldiers doing manly things. They function more as a disease, a ecological terraformer as such, that can infest entire planets in hours to days.

    Invasive species like lionfish or rabbits can’t do shit to any militarily force and yet they are capable of overrunning and crashing entire ecosystems. And the militarily can’t do shit about it.

    Same for the flood, while master chief and co are out there killing the flood, the flood have already spread out across the planet, stealing planes, sneaking infected animals across borders and letting spores drift via intercontinental winds, well they would have if it wasn’t for the orbital bombardment that glassed half of continent.

    And like I said, the flood are tool users at heart. They always seek to use best tools and hand and try to make some if nearby tools aren’t around. Unlucky for them, during the 3 games, there hasn’t been much tools on hand for them to loot and not enough time and biomass for them to make their own.

  58. Friendlysociopath January 12, 2015 at 3:29 pm -      #158

    Not this again…

  59. IamTaco January 12, 2015 at 3:30 pm -      #159

    ‘This irony… it makes me cringe.’

    That isn’t irony. That is the pleasurable feeling I get from my butt that I get when I think about the amount butthurt from people like you.

  60. pimpmage January 12, 2015 at 3:32 pm -      #160

    You keep telling me the flood can create and use tools right? Tell that to the door that keep them jailed for thousands of years. The door must certainly be quivering in is boots in the danger it is currently in. Seriously, show me an example of this taco.

  61. MrRyder January 12, 2015 at 3:42 pm -      #161

    Does all this expansive stuff(I don’t know when Silentium came out) put Halo above W40k now on the long list of super power sci-fi universes?

  62. IamTaco January 12, 2015 at 3:44 pm -      #162

    ‘‘Q: How was High charity able to get to the Ark in a timely manner? The only way it could have done so was the Voi Portal, but High Charity was much bigger than that portal. So how was it able to do this? If it went through Voi, why did the Gravemind not throw down billions upon billions of flood forms on earth while it was there?
    – BaconShelf

    A: The Flood-infested High Charity never entered Earth’s atmosphere, and did not transit the Portal at Voi. However, the Gravemind did become aware of Earth’s Portal – and thus the danger that the Lesser Ark still posed to his plans – as soon as he arrived in the Sol system. His modifications to High Charity were far-reaching, both to keep the facility functioning after the departure of the Keyship, and to better serve as a mobile plagueship from which he could sing victory everlasting in a galaxy consumed of thinking life. But even with an intellect impossibly vast and deep, able to twist the technologies of the Covenant far beyond their original functionality by application of esoteric Precursor science, the ancient abomination was unable to both conduct a desperate bridging maneuver to the Ark and maintain the structural integrity of High Charity after its arrival.’’

    The flood managing to modify the slipspace drive of high charity.

    The debris of battle lay all around, ruins of human structures but also, visible through the haze and smoke as long slender streaks in the sky, the untouchable and perpetual star roads of the Precursors, placed there more than ten million years before. These gray , eternal whorls stretched to middle orbit, where their rotating bands drew constantly and silently from the neurophysical energy of raw space in ways we still do not understand. Life— achingly beautiful, impossibly difficult.

    The flood using star roads and neural physics.

    ‘Warrior-Servants methodically destroyed the infected fleets, leaving only scattered remains to analyze —damaged monitors and broken bits of armor. A few of the recovered monitors were beyond repair or even interrogation. They had been subjected to a hitherto unknown philosophical corruption— much like the perversion later observed in Mendicant Bias. They quickly spread their corruption to other AIs. It was obviously not healthy for an ancilla to match wits with a Gravemind. The same might have been true of organic beings . But with them, the Flood leaped over any subtle perversion or persuasion. It simply absorbed, converted, used.’

    Another tool. Not of the physical but the metaphysical coruuption. Still counts as a tool I suppose.

    ‘How can this be? Can such sublime mentality be so distorted? And yet … So rich! So infinitely deep in meaning and broad in scope, I am overwhelmed. The Gravemind studies me, loves me so intensely it will eat me, absorb me into its very center. I twist in a spiral of laws once brilliant but now evil, cutting, carving— setting evil precedents. A shredding maze of forensic infection. No truth anywhere. All illusion! In agony. With infinite amusement, it withdraws its tendrils and my carapace is resealed. Gravemind informs me I will be delivered back to Forerunner territory, carrying a shard of itself deep in my memory. To spread fear and pain. Burn me! Extinguish my memory! I beg you! Better that Catalog never existed!’

    Using the didact as tool to troll the forerunners.

    ‘“The Precursors lived in many shapes, flesh and spirit, primitive and advanced, spacefaring and locked to their worlds … Evolved over and over again, died away, were reborn, explored, and seeded many galaxies … This I was told. I understand little.’

    They have been in many forms. Inculding space-faring. So tool use is a must.

    ‘If he’d been another AI or a virus, Cortana would have known exactly where his attack was headed. She would have been able to track him through the circuits and gateways to her vulnerable matrix. Her enemy would follow electronic pathways—or even enzymes or optical lattices if she was embedded in a molecular or quantum system. But he felt formless, almost like a fog. She could only sense where he touched her. She was a boxer shielding her face, not seeing the punch but reeling when it connected.’

    ‘”―Other construct minds like yours have been consumed,” said the Gravemind. “―Although one embraced us willingly on his deathbed, the moment when most sentient life discovers it would do anything to evade the inevitable.”‘

    ‘But run she did. She was in a street sprinting for her life, deafened by screams, falling over her neighbor as a pack of Flood pounced on him. She felt the wet spray of blood; she froze one second too long to stare in horror as his body metamorphosed instantly into a grotesquely misshapen lump of flesh. Then something hit her hard in the back like a stab wound. She was knocked flat as searing pain overwhelmed her. The screams she could hear were her own.

    Cortana was dying as any organic would. She felt it all. She felt the separate layers of existence—the chaotic mix of animal terror, disbelief, utter bewilderment, and snapshot images of beloved faces. Then it ended.’

    Oh look, the flood somehow interacting and hacking a A.I. Seems like a advanced tool user to me.

    ‘IDENTIFICATION OF NEW categories of Flood components and forms will be distributed upon confirmation. Tentative conclusions: the Flood is mutating to form Graveminds of unprecedented size and complexity, incorporating many species. Entire planetary ecosystems have apparently undergone conversion to what are being referred to as Key Minds. Evidence of the extraordinary strategic planning abilities of these Key Minds is rapidly increasing . They appear to be more than a match for any metarch-level ancilla, capable of assuming complete control of besieged sectors, and sending converted battle fleets through unprecedented number of slipspace portals utilizing unfamiliar technology. This technology also appears to be capable of blocking delivery of our forces to battle fronts. Vessels showing signs of extreme reconciliation failure have been witnessed at the arrival points of major Forerunner portals. Perhaps most alarming, reports arrive each hour of reawakened Precursor artifacts, including orbital ribbons, star roads, planetary fortresses, and citadels. Combined defense forces are inadequate to investigate and confirm all instances of these reactivations. They appear to be galaxy-wide.’

    Oh look, the flood using forerunner tech and ships.

    And all the other times in the game when the flood pick up a gun or ploited a star ships. Or in the mona lisa where the flood attempt to fix a UNSC FTL drive.

  63. the_man_with The_Answers January 12, 2015 at 3:50 pm -      #163

    “An extreme disadvantage is no matter when posting matches. Remember that bull dog vs the death star? You don’t see people giving that bull dog powers cosmic do you?”

    That’s not what I’m saying AT ALL.
    Walk into Master Chief vs Solid Snake. Snake is NOT being debated from the position of being in a wheelchair, even though that is his “current incarnation.” In Halo vs Mass Effect, Mass Effect is NOT debated from immediately post-ending where the relay network is destroyed with half of the factions as well. Halo, in any debate, is NOT debated from the year 2610 despite that being the most “current” year.

    2. Battle Incarnations
    “All combatants are considered to be at their current incarnations, or most recent incarnation prior to death and/or incapacitation that would prevent them from engaging in battle at optimum efficiency, within their own continuities unless otherwise specified by the battle’s scenario.”
    factpile.com/2812-factpile-debating-rules/

    Additionally, for the Flood owning High Charity:
    .” Outside Help
    No combatant is allowed to call in for aid from an ally not involved in the battle scenario. That does not, however, render any powers or equipment the combatants may have associated with the incarnations used in the scenario null.”

    “I don’t want people like you trying to prove the splazer is chief’s standard equipment. That was an example of how I see this debate do far.”

    Which I have NEVER done. I was literally only vying for giving Chief more than a fucking pistol and assault rifle, because that loadout was over a DECADE old (14 years actually)..

    “They nerfed themselves because their plot stupidity. They were completely incompetent against any force they fought in the latter halo verse time. Heck, their entire race was locked behind metal doors for millenia.”

    Which is why they caused the Forerunners to kill themselves, defeated Ancient Humanity, and almost wiped out current Halo if not for the protagonist of the entire Xbox console franchise blowing their shit up whenever they touch down on anything.

    “Maybe I should post a match, flood vs a locked door? Door would stomp. It’s not even worth posting.”

    Infection forms bust down a Forerunner door the very first time you EVER see the Flood in Halo. Your butthurt trolling is failing pretty hard.

    “Like master chief? They most definitely curb stomped that mortal right?”

    He’s literally the protagonist of the Xbox franchise. He, by the sheer force of Microsoft’s infinite pockets, cannot lose to anything within his universe. Without Chief in the equation the Flood curbstomped the Covenant (The most powerful faction at the time) at their capital (the most well defended location at the time) with a token force, in an hour or two.

  64. pimpmage January 12, 2015 at 4:42 pm -      #164

    The current flood is not post final battle whatsoever. Stop using that as a crutch to give them what no longer exists. You don’t see 40k debaters using pre heresy era as the pre final battle era do you? Also, I am honestly not trying to troll anyone here with the door bit… the first halo ring locked the flood away inside the installation for millenia. This is fact. The covenant unlocked it then locked it back up again. Capt keyes unlocked it and it locked behind him. Chief found it and left the door open behind him and unleashed the flood onto the main ring. They were literally held back by a metal fucking door. Calling me a troll does absolutely Jack shit in refuting this. Hows about you take a deep breath and refute it or shut the fuck up about calling someone a troll because you refuse to debate properly.

  65. Tyran January 12, 2015 at 5:47 pm -      #165

    The current flood is not post final battle whatsoever. Stop using that as a crutch to give them what no longer exists. You don’t see 40k debaters using pre heresy era as the pre final battle era do you? Also, I am honestly not trying to troll anyone here with the door bit… the first halo ring locked the flood away inside the installation for millenia. This is fact. The covenant unlocked it then locked it back up again. Capt keyes unlocked it and it locked behind him. Chief found it and left the door open behind him and unleashed the flood onto the main ring. They were literally held back by a metal fucking door. Calling me a troll does absolutely Jack shit in refuting this. Hows about you take a deep breath and refute it or shut the fuck up about calling someone a troll because you refuse to debate properly.

    First, the Flood wasn’t just behind a door, it was in stasis, probably even time locked, that’s hard to escape, specially as they were reduced to only spores. And even then, they managed to escape on Delta Halo.

    Second, when the Covenant released the Flood, they were unable to stop it. By the moment Chief arrived to the installation, the Flood were already spreading through the ring.

  66. pimpmage January 12, 2015 at 5:51 pm -      #166

    Thank you for being nice and correcting me, it’s been awhile since I read the books.

  67. the_man_with The_Answers January 12, 2015 at 6:39 pm -      #167

    “The current flood is not post final battle whatsoever.”

    What the hell is “post final battle”

    “Stop using that as a crutch to give them what no longer exists.”

    Literally the only Flood force that we know of is that of the Flood circa Halo 3 when the Gravemind made his way onto The Ark

    ” You don’t see 40k debaters using pre heresy era as the pre final battle era do you?”

    I’m not sure I follow. The Flood barely even exist in Halo past Halo 3. It is literally the last, or most current, incarnation of them where they have any quantifiable data about them. If you want to use post-Halo 3 Flood, literally everything about them would be 100% conjecture, for which it would be equally as valid to say that they’ve consumed entire galaxies as it would be to say they only have one or two planets.

    “Also, I am honestly not trying to troll anyone here with the door bit… the first halo ring locked the flood away inside the installation for millenia. This is fact. The covenant unlocked it then locked it back up again.”

    Locked in stasis yes. Doors were not stopping them, seeing as they busted through them with zero effort with infection forms as shown by the very first time you ever see the Flood in all of Halo back in 2001.
    Skip to 4:00

    If you claimed you were serious about that, I had no choice but to assume you were trolling.

    “Chief found it and left the door open behind him and unleashed the flood onto the main ring.”

    Except he didn’t, as the Flood were already in the swamp before Chief even got back up there, and had already breached The Library significantly earlier than when Chief first encountered the Flood.

    ” They were literally held back by a metal fucking door. Calling me a troll does absolutely Jack shit in refuting this. Hows about you take a deep breath and refute it or shut the fuck up about calling someone a troll because you refuse to debate properly.”

    Literally the first thing you learn about The Flood, even before what they look like, is that they can bust down a door. Back in 2001.

    This is also a Forerunner door we’re talking about. If you are so intent on getting doors involved, it took concentrated fire from a scarab walker for Johnson to blow open a Forerunner door in Halo 2. So I guess infection forms are as strong as tank melting death beams? No, that’s stupid.

    Furthermore, the Flood escaped entirely on their own on Installation 05, and went to war against the droves of sentinel drone forces for tens of thousands of years. Working only from that ring with no outside support.

    Additionally, even the video showing the comic panels shows the Flood OPENING the “locked door” that you said held them back. You’ve already SEEN the damning evidence against the “door argument” but asserted it anyways.

    “Thank you for being nice and correcting me, it’s been awhile since I read the books.”

    Because of this, I backspaced a lot of different things

  68. GMoney January 12, 2015 at 6:44 pm -      #168

    “You defeated your own argument by giving me access to your sources. Nurgle’s various plagues are so effective because they corrode at the soul. Which Tyranids don’t have…”

    It’s actually unclear whether or not The Tyranids have souls. They behave like an amalgamation of an insect colony and the Borg Collective. Not only that, but Nurgle’s Rot infects both body and soul, which neither The Eldar Empire at its peak, who rivaled the Forerunners (Craftworld Eldar are a shadow of what they used to be) and The Necrons, whose technology I dare say exceeds the Forerunners, could cure. But the Tyranids did.

    “Blocking a warp-based disease, one directly from Nurgle no less would make a lot of sense. But its not necessarily proof that they could become immune to the Flood. The fact that they haven’t become immune to the Life Eater virus seems to favor the Flood being able to infect them.”

    Actually, there’s a peace of fluff where The Imperium Virus Bombs The Tyranids, which wipes out the first batch but when the Tyranids come to the next planet, they use Virus bombs on the Imperials. Meaning that they not only adapted to it, but figured out how to manufacture it.

  69. TheSorrow January 12, 2015 at 7:13 pm -      #169

    Somebody didn’t read comment 109 and 114…

    When was it established as a cover up for genetic augmentations? I mean I have the graphic novel as well, but they never mentioned it. Are you implying that because of Johnson’s choice of words, that he lied? If so, wouldn’t it be likely that when he said they “ignored him”, it meant they never even attempted to infect him?

  70. Tyran January 12, 2015 at 7:28 pm -      #170

    It’s actually unclear whether or not The Tyranids have souls. They behave like an amalgamation of an insect colony and the Borg Collective. Not only that, but Nurgle’s Rot infects both body and soul, which neither The Eldar Empire at its peak, who rivaled the Forerunners (Craftworld Eldar are a shadow of what they used to be) and The Necrons, whose technology I dare say exceeds the Forerunners, could cure. But the Tyranids did.

    I would say that there is technological parity between Forerunners and Necrons, as both can do mostly the same things. Although the Forerunners outclass the Necrons in “bio-tech”, as the Necrons didn’t achieve biological immortality.

  71. GMoney January 12, 2015 at 7:42 pm -      #171

    “I would say that there is technological parity between Forerunners and Necrons, as both can do mostly the same things. Although the Forerunners outclass the Necrons in “bio-tech”, as the Necrons didn’t achieve biological immortality.”

    Agreed on Forerunners being better at Biology, but The Necrons have time travel and True FTL, which The Forerunners never achieved.

  72. MrRyder January 12, 2015 at 8:39 pm -      #172

    Speaking of Necrons, what are thoughts on the retcon to their character?

  73. Tyran January 12, 2015 at 8:57 pm -      #173

    Agreed on Forerunners being better at Biology, but The Necrons have time travel and True FTL, which The Forerunners never achieved.

    The Forerunners are capable of limited time travel as slipspace is time travel. The problem is that it creates debt (which is the causal reconciliation) and there is a chance that the universe decides to kick you out of existence for that. The 40k universe is far more flexible when it comes to causality.

  74. Tyran January 12, 2015 at 9:05 pm -      #174

    @MrRyder
    That it gives them more background.

  75. Friendlysociopath January 12, 2015 at 9:21 pm -      #175

    but The Necrons have time travel and True FTL, which The Forerunners never achieved.

    I thought the Necrons only have one guy who can time travel?

  76. GMoney January 12, 2015 at 9:31 pm -      #176

    “Speaking of Necrons, what are thoughts on the retcon to their character?”

    It’s not technically a retcon, all 40k fluff is equal canon.

    “I thought the Necrons only have one guy who can time travel?”

    He has the tech to time travel. He dosent share it because he dosent want people to know that his precognition isn’t perfect.

  77. Neon Lord January 12, 2015 at 10:31 pm -      #177

    ““I thought the Necrons only have one guy who can time travel?””

    The one guy is a member of the Chronomancer sect of Crypteks, who mess with nothing but time. There are definitely others able to time travel to a limited extent. Orikan is just the most famous.

    Necrons also have dimensional tech which Forerunners don’t have I think.

    “It’s not technically a retcon, all 40k fluff is equal canon.”

    Newer is always more canon if it directly contradicts an older source. Unless its GW failing to organise a timeline properly again. Lack-of-mention of things in new sources, however, is a different thing.

  78. pimpmage January 12, 2015 at 10:37 pm -      #178

    “Necrons also have dimensional tech which Forerunners don’t have I think.”

    In the ‘ghosts of onyx’ book, they talk about some capsules that are visible in reality but are actually inside a slipspace bubble. Halsey mentioned that you could detonate a nuke beside one to no effect. Seems like that would be amazing to plate a ship with heh.

  79. the_man_with The_Answers January 12, 2015 at 10:39 pm -      #179

    “It’s actually unclear whether or not The Tyranids have souls. They behave like an amalgamation of an insect colony and the Borg Collective. Not only that, but Nurgle’s Rot infects both body and soul, which neither The Eldar Empire at its peak, who rivaled the Forerunners (Craftworld Eldar are a shadow of what they used to be) and The Necrons, whose technology I dare say exceeds the Forerunners, could cure. But the Tyranids did.”

    Everything I read seems to point to Tyranids having no soul. They are the antithema to Chaos. Soulless, so they can’t be harvested in the typical sense. Emotionless so that they can’t fall prey to the corruption of chaos. And so single minded in orderly function that they can’t even think of something otherwise. They are essentially untouchable to chaos corruption through their character construction, making them immune to more or less the most significant portion of Nurgle’s diseases through their in universe “disposition” rather than via “the power of evolution.”

    “Actually, there’s a peace of fluff where The Imperium Virus Bombs The Tyranids, which wipes out the first batch but when the Tyranids come to the next planet, they use Virus bombs on the Imperials. Meaning that they not only adapted to it, but figured out how to manufacture it.”

    While I’m not too terribly well versed in Warhammer, I haven’t read this anywhere. Not on the wiki, or Lexicam, or the countless forums asking about the relation between Tyranids and Virus bombs, which means I’m going to need a source for that.

    “When was it established as a cover up for genetic augmentations?”

    In Contact Harvest, files are brought up on Johnson, including multiple top secret operations, all of which are canonically SPARTAN-I/ORION operations (Actually ORION was specifically listed as well).
    www.halopedia.org/Boren%27s_Syndrome
    It isn’t a real thing.

    ” If so, wouldn’t it be likely that when he said they “ignored him”, it meant they never even attempted to infect him?”

    Did it look like those Flood “ignored” him or “didn’t try to infect” him from the comic? Sure as hell didn’t look that way to me. Sarcastic Sergeant is Sarcastic. Conversely old source is retconned by newer source with more description. I mean, the excuse was that his “messed up neurological system” stopped Flood infection, so much so that they just entirely ignored him. Except Flood don’t even need a functional neurological system and can just use straight biomass. You have to realize how old the source is here. That book came out in 2003, a year before Halo 2, 3 years before the Graphic Novel, 4 years before Halo 3, and 8 years before the start of the Forerunner Trilogy.

    “Necrons also have dimensional tech which Forerunners don’t have I think.”

    Slipspace IS dimensional technology. Forerunners harvest energy from pocket dimensions, Shield World’s exist in separate dimensions, as does anything in slipspace. The whole point of even rudimentary slipspace is to tear a whole in real-space and find “shortcuts” to locations by travelling through the full 11 dimensions.
    www.halopedia.org/Slipspace

  80. Tyran January 12, 2015 at 10:58 pm -      #180

    Necrons also have dimensional tech which Forerunners don’t have I think.

    As stated above, the Forerunners are kings of dimensional technology. On of my favorites examples is a transport that appears on Primordium, were its interior existed in 3 different dimensions, so essentially it was 3 different rooms occupying the same space.

    Also lets not forget space-time manipulation and fractal dimensions.

  81. Neon Lord January 12, 2015 at 11:03 pm -      #181

    “They are essentially untouchable to chaos corruption through their character construction, making them immune to more or less the most significant portion of Nurgle’s diseases through their in universe “disposition” rather than via “the power of evolution.””

    A lot of Nurgle’s diseases are potent physically as well. There aren’t many that are actually soul-based.

    ““Actually, there’s a peace of fluff where The Imperium Virus Bombs The Tyranids, which wipes out the first batch but when the Tyranids come to the next planet, they use Virus bombs on the Imperials. Meaning that they not only adapted to it, but figured out how to manufacture it.””

    I like to think I am well-versed in 40k fluff, and I have never heard of this. A source would be nice.

    “Slipspace IS dimensional technology. Forerunners harvest energy from pocket dimensions, Shield World’s exist in separate dimensions, as does anything in slipspace. The whole point of even rudimentary slipspace is to tear a whole in real-space and find “shortcuts” to locations by travelling through the full 11 dimensions”

    Ok, excuse my lack of knowledge then. I always thought slipspace was just a single dimension.

  82. TheSorrow January 12, 2015 at 11:04 pm -      #182

    That’s all I needed to know, I haven’t read Contact Harvest in years so it’s more than likely slipped my mind on that part. When I said ignored, I mean can’t infect, they would still try to kill him though, considering he is a threat. However minor that may be.

  83. GMoney January 12, 2015 at 11:45 pm -      #183

    “Newer is always more canon if it directly contradicts an older source. Unless its GW failing to organise a timeline properly again. Lack-of-mention of things in new sources, however, is a different thing.”

    Not really. GW fluff is told from the perspective of an unreliable narrator, and all fluff even contradictory fluff, is a biased view of the 40k universe. This was GW’s excuse to not make their canon consistent. The only thing that has been truly retconed was The 13th Black Crusade, because people got butthurt.

    “I like to think I am well-versed in 40k fluff, and I have never heard of this. A source would be nice.”

    I tired looking for it, but I could not find it. But, neither could I find an instance of Virus Bombs being used on The Tyranids and I believe those occurrences happen during the same event.
    @Ober
    Where did you get the source for The Imperium Virus bombing the Nids?

  84. OberHerr January 13, 2015 at 12:08 am -      #184

    @GMoney
    Its just what I gathered from this thread. All I’ve ever heard is they haven’t become immune to it. I’d also be interested in that bit of fluff for ‘Nids regarding Life Eater. Like I said, all I’ve ever heard is they have to hide or avoid it, can’t recall them managing to become immune or utilize it.

    @Neon Lord
    My point on Nurgle’s diseases is they are warp based, or come from a warp based source, so immunity from ‘Nids isn’t that strange. Also, Nurgle’s diseases are never as dangerous as the Life Eater Virus, with the exception of ones that attack your soul or convert you to Chaos, or in any situation where wiping out a planet isn’t the real goal.

    They don’t kill often is my point. They mostly seem to just be there to make the victims suffer. Chaos isn’t big on outright killing people if they can help it. Nurgle thrives on death, but disease spreading and pervading is also his thing. Kinda like how Slaneesh would rather rape/torture/pleasure/blow-out-eardrums than kill you.

  85. Neon Lord January 13, 2015 at 12:22 am -      #185

    “@GMoney
    Its just what I gathered from this thread. All I’ve ever heard is they haven’t become immune to it. I’d also be interested in that bit of fluff for ‘Nids regarding Life Eater. Like I said, all I’ve ever heard is they have to hide or avoid it, can’t recall them managing to become immune or utilize it”

    There is an old White Dwarf or Apoc supplement, I forget which, which details the Ariadne effect observed of the Tyranids, where they go into into deep hibernation underground to avoid Exterminatus. That is the only thing I can recall remotely related to the Life Eater and nids.

    “@Neon Lord
    My point on Nurgle’s diseases is they are warp based, or come from a warp based source, so immunity from ‘Nids isn’t that strange. Also, Nurgle’s diseases are never as dangerous as the Life Eater Virus, with the exception of ones that attack your soul or convert you to Chaos, or in any situation where wiping out a planet isn’t the real goal.”

    It is important to remember context however, and in the battle of Shadowbrink both sides were actively trying to kill each other off. It would be counter-intuitive to think that Nurgle was using non-lethal and/or slow acting diseases in that kind of situation. These aren’t diseases spread on a macro scale, but diseases for battlefield combat use.

    Like your example with Slaneesh, in a actual fight Noise Blasters aren’t the slow kind of pleasuring thing, and more overwhelm-you-and-instant-death kind of blast.

  86. the_man_with The_Answers January 13, 2015 at 2:16 am -      #186

    “A lot of Nurgle’s diseases are potent physically as well. There aren’t many that are actually soul-based.”

    But from the looks of it, the “uncurable” Nurgle’s Rot’s main vector is through “corrosion” of the soul. The physicality of the virus is completely overshadowed by its ability to infest the soul of the target.

    “Ok, excuse my lack of knowledge then. I always thought slipspace was just a single dimension.”

    Slipspace is 11 different “conventional” dimensions existing in a non-space, related to the modern “string/m theory.” The Forerunners have also explored OTHER dimensions different from slipspace named by the Forerunners such as:
    “Denial of Locale”
    “Natal Void”
    “Shunspace”
    “Trick Geodetics”
    “The Glow” which is an “all photon” dimension with apparent applications in analyzing areas in “real space”

    “That’s all I needed to know, I haven’t read Contact Harvest in years so it’s more than likely slipped my mind on that part. When I said ignored, I mean can’t infect, they would still try to kill him though, considering he is a threat. However minor that may be.”

    But he wouldn’t be able to tell that himself.

    “It is important to remember context however, and in the battle of Shadowbrink both sides were actively trying to kill each other off. It would be counter-intuitive to think that Nurgle was using non-lethal and/or slow acting diseases in that kind of situation. These aren’t diseases spread on a macro scale, but diseases for battlefield combat use.”

    I think the point was that, categorically, Nurgle’s diseases are created to cause suffering as opposed to rapid death. They do so by means of the Warp, in which the Tyranids are more or less apart from. So immunizing themselves against a warp/soul vectored diseases, non of which infect nearly as swiftly and absolutely as the Flood, is not proof of Tyranids being capable of out-matching any single virulent infection, but more of a contextual advantage through an in universe “standing” of sorts.

    -

  87. Neon Lord January 13, 2015 at 3:49 am -      #187

    “I think the point was that, categorically, Nurgle’s diseases are created to cause suffering as opposed to rapid death. They do so by means of the Warp”

    Nurgle’s Rot is the only disease of Nurgle’s that I know of which attacks the soul. Most of Nurgle’s diseases are not warp-based. Warp-spawned, yes, but that doesn’t change their nature as a real disease. The vectors for most of Nurgle’s diseases is scratches, physical contact, or air/water borne. Doubtworm is a notable exception, except I don’t think that is a Nurgle one but a warp entity in its own right.

  88. Zazax January 13, 2015 at 6:05 am -      #188

    “I like to think I am well-versed in 40k fluff, and I have never heard of this. A source would be nice.”
    I’ve actually heard that same exact thing, but I can’t for the life of me remember where (and, by extension, whether it was from a trustworthy source or not). *shrug*

  89. LadyRamkin January 13, 2015 at 7:27 am -      #189

    “Really? Because the Flood will be a global infection before the Tyranids have left their “local” area. It becomes an extreme uphill battle where the Tyranids become vastly outnumbered. We’re talking about something that can take full control of a Forerunner planet in under a day. Tyranids take nearly 2 months to do the same thing under less resistance”

    Tyraninds don’t really do something similar. Flood take over the surface and that’s about it. the Tyranids eat the planet. They consume every piece of biological matter, every mineral out of the ground, they drink the oceans and the atmosphere and leave the planet a barren molten rock, its not really the same thing.

  90. Neon Lord January 13, 2015 at 9:31 am -      #190

    And then they bring it all to space!

    These numbers might be useful for a calc somewhere.

    web.archive.org/web/20080513115814/http://uk.games-workshop.com/tyranids/tyranoforming-worlds/1/

  91. pimpmage January 13, 2015 at 10:37 am -      #191

    “So immunizing themselves against a warp/soul vectored diseases”

    The tyranids DO use psyker powers.

    “The Dominatrix (plural: Dominatrices, species name: Tyranicus praepotens [Needs Citation]) is a Tyranid species which exerts a controlling psychic aura to bring lesser Tyranid creatures under its will, allowing the swarm under its command to operate with uncanny efficiency and tactical ability. However, a Dominatrix is extremely rare and only seen in the most advanced Tyranid swarms.[1]”
    1: Codex: Tyranids (5th Edition), pg. 21

    “Zoanthropes are a species of Tyranid created solely to harness the potential psychic power of the Hive Mind, in effect a type of psychic artillery used in Tyranid planetary invasions and a synapse creature used to relay the commands of the Hive Mind to lesser creatures.[4]”
    4: Codex: Tyranids (5th Edition), p. 44

    This proves all tyranids have souls. They are all in psykic communion 100% of the time it seems.

  92. IamTaco January 13, 2015 at 11:29 am -      #192

    ‘Tyranids don’t really do something similar. Flood take over the surface and that’s about it. the Tyranids eat the planet. They consume every piece of biological matter, every mineral out of the ground, they drink the oceans and the atmosphere and leave the planet a barren molten rock, its not really the same thing.’

    Like you said, they are completely different so why compare them like that? When the flood take over a planet, they form a keymind, a planetary hive mind capable of using neural physics and reality warping. And the flood have never been see doing this but they are more then capable of turning an entire planet’s biosphere into trillions of Huragok, mining the planet for raw material and turn the planet into one large factory. The tryanids turn the material into more squishy ships that would get stomped by any forerunner ships that the flood manage to build or if the flood manage to make any new star roads.

    ‘These numbers might be useful for a calc somewhere.’

    This is why I say that the flood would eventually win. It takes the tryanids months to fully infest planets, while the flood take over planets in hours to days… Then with the tryanids FTL, it will take the fleet another couple of years or so to move on to the next world.

  93. pimpmage January 13, 2015 at 11:35 am -      #193

    “more then capable of turning an entire planet’s biosphere into trillions of Huragok,”

    Stop saying this unless you will back it up.

    “This is why I say that the flood would eventually win. It takes the tryanids months to fully infest planets, while the flood take over planets in hours to days…”

    They don’t take planets over the same way. Its irrelevant anyway because flood don’t even have any conventional means of leaving an atmosphere.

  94. the_man_with The_Answers January 13, 2015 at 1:06 pm -      #194

    “Nurgle’s Rot is the only disease of Nurgle’s that I know of which attacks the soul. Most of Nurgle’s diseases are not warp-based. Warp-spawned, yes, but that doesn’t change their nature as a real disease. The vectors for most of Nurgle’s diseases is scratches, physical contact, or air/water borne. Doubtworm is a notable exception, except I don’t think that is a Nurgle one but a warp entity in its own right.”

    But Nurgle’s most powerful and the one being toted as the “get out of Flood free card” is primarily a soul based infection is the one in question.

    “Tyraninds don’t really do something similar. Flood take over the surface and that’s about it. the Tyranids eat the planet. They consume every piece of biological matter, every mineral out of the ground, they drink the oceans and the atmosphere and leave the planet a barren molten rock, its not really the same thing.”

    Except it still takes the Tyranids nearly 2 months to eliminate all resistance on the planet. The Flood do that in a matter of hours or days. Regardless of end intentions, by the time Tyranids wouldh ave moved a sixth of the distance across the US, the Flood would have taken over the planet.

    “This proves all tyranids have souls. They are all in psykic communion 100% of the time it seems.”

    Except individually Tyranids don’t, for the overwhelming vast majority, have psychic abilities. The Hivemind itself might have a soul, but the individual Tyranids don’t, so trying to corrupt their souls individually isn’t going to work.

    “They don’t take planets over the same way. Its irrelevant anyway because flood don’t even have any conventional means of leaving an atmosphere.”

    The Gravemind went to The Ark without any method of getting back from it. but he was clearly going to use it as a completely detached base of operations to infect the entire Galaxy. Which not only implies he was going to create craft to send back into the Milky Way, but extremely fast craft seeing as they would have to cross the 2E18 lightyears to do anything.

    Even “Feral Flood” in Combat Evolved were in the process of repairing a Covenant ship hours after they got out of containment. Same thing happened on the UNSC Mona Lisa.

    Like, we KNOW the Flood can repair, upgrade, and otherwise create their own things. The sources have been provided, it is undeniable.

  95. pimpmage January 13, 2015 at 1:20 pm -      #195

    “Except individually Tyranids don’t, for the overwhelming vast majority, have psychic abilities. The Hivemind itself might have a soul, but the individual Tyranids don’t, so trying to corrupt their souls individually isn’t going to work.”

    Tyranid psykers have souls, thats how they are able to use powers. If a single tyranid has a soul, why not them all? You have absolutely nothing to back that up.

    “The Flood do that in a matter of hours or days”

    I keep seeing people post this. From what I have seen, they only cover the surface in stupid goop. They do not drink oceans and remove atmospheres. They do not take over planets the same way. You are basically saying it takes the flood a day to take a sip of water and the tyranids take a month to drink a gallon of water. Then you mean to say Flood have better feats because of that single sip of water?

    “Like, we KNOW the Flood can repair, upgrade, and otherwise create their own things. The sources have been provided, it is undeniable.”

    Ok, can they do it from scratch? Like an empty lifeless forest planet. Can they build a space ship from literally scratch?

    Oh, and I was gonna say this yesterday. The biggest reason I know the flood are not suffering from the post final battle nerf you made a big deal about, is because they were never officially defeated. 343 will bring them back a final time where they will be finally defeated once and for all. I will make you eat your goddam hat.

  96. Tyran January 13, 2015 at 2:05 pm -      #196

    Tyranid psykers have souls, thats how they are able to use powers. If a single tyranid has a soul, why not them all? You have absolutely nothing to back that up.

    Err… what? what does having powers have to do with having souls? One can consider the Hive Mind as a massive soul, but individually the Tyranids are soulless.

    Ok, can they do it from scratch? Like an empty lifeless forest planet. Can they build a space ship from literally scratch?

    If it has a forest then it isn’t lifeless. And yes, but it will take time, after all they need to gather the resources and built the infrastructure. As been mentioned before, the Flood are tool users. And they already have the knowledge about how to make space ships.

    I keep seeing people post this. From what I have seen, they only cover the surface in stupid goop. They do not drink oceans and remove atmospheres. They do not take over planets the same way. You are basically saying it takes the flood a day to take a sip of water and the tyranids take a month to drink a gallon of water. Then you mean to say Flood have better feats because of that single sip of water?

    They can cover a planet in absurd amounts of biomass. For example, Spore Mountains are absurdly big (50 kilometers tall, 200 wide), and Key Minds are planets completely covered in Flood Biomass.

  97. pimpmage January 13, 2015 at 2:25 pm -      #197

    “Err… what? what does having powers have to do with having souls? One can consider the Hive Mind as a massive soul, but individually the Tyranids are soulless.”

    I think you have no clue what you are talking about. You can have a soul without having powers. Having a strong soul gives you psyker powers. All living things in 40k have souls.

    “If it has a forest then it isn’t lifeless.”

    If you took a second to properly read that, the context of lifeless was lack of animals or humans. Adding forests to that was to emphasize that it was not just a barren desert planet.

    “If it has a forest then it isn’t lifeless. And yes, but it will take time, after all they need to gather the resources and built the infrastructure. As been mentioned before, the Flood are tool users. And they already have the knowledge about how to make space ships.”

    Every single time someone has posted about the flood making things, they literally just fixed up or used other people’s tech. Why would they do that if they could make their own ship every single time? They have never shown the ability to create outside of repairing other people’s tech. Please just post something to refute it.

    “They can cover a planet in absurd amounts of biomass. For example, Spore Mountains are absurdly big (50 kilometers tall, 200 wide), and Key Minds are planets completely covered in Flood Biomass.”

    Covering a planet in biomass is nothing to stripping an entire planet to a husk of rock. They are nothing alike whatsoever.

  98. MrRyder January 13, 2015 at 2:38 pm -      #198

    So what constitutes an FP award? Do the Flood win one here?

  99. Tyran January 13, 2015 at 2:51 pm -      #199

    I think you have no clue what you are talking about. You can have a soul without having powers. Having a strong soul gives you psyker powers. All living things in 40k have souls.

    That’s true for everybody except Tyranids. Tyranids don’t draw their powers from the Warp, but rather from the Hive Mind itself. And it has been stated multiple times that the Tyranids are soulless.

    If you took a second to properly read that, the context of lifeless was lack of animals or humans. Adding forests to that was to emphasize that it was not just a barren desert planet.

    The Flood seems to need sentient life to evolve, so the Flood would be limited to feral state in this world. But it will still eat the forest, biomass is biomass.

    Every single time someone has posted about the flood making things, they literally just fixed up or used other people’s tech. Why would they do that if they could make their own ship every single time? They have never shown the ability to create outside of repairing other people’s tech. Please just post something to refute it.

    Because upgrading an already existent ship is faster than making a new one.

    The Flood knows how to make ships. And if you have the knowledge, then you only need resources and time.

  100. pimpmage January 13, 2015 at 3:20 pm -      #200

    “That’s true for everybody except Tyranids. Tyranids don’t draw their powers from the Warp, but rather from the Hive Mind itself. And it has been stated multiple times that the Tyranids are soulless.”

    I think you have no clue what you are talking about, and you are probably sourcing your own opinion for that.

    “The Flood seems to need sentient life to evolve, so the Flood would be limited to feral state in this world. But it will still eat the forest, biomass is biomass.”

    I am assuming they have multitudes of flood forms in their current roster. Even with a standing army of flood available and a hive mind to command them, I don’t think they would be able to mine resources to create a ship from nothing.

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