Master Chief vs Commander Shepard

Master chief vs Commander Shepard (Mass Effect)

I haven’t had a chance to play Mass Effect yet, so I’ll simply post this fight and let the comments dictate the winner…

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635 Comments on "Master Chief vs Commander Shepard"

  1. Warlock Lowk November 9, 2014 at 11:19 pm -      #601

    “The thing is, both combatants are wearing armor and shielding that make the other’s weapons irrelevant for all practical purposes.”

    “Which means they are going to end up in CQB, which heavily favors Chief.”

    Shepard’s mods give him the edge in weaponry though making it that much useful against dropping chief’s shields. Pretty much every Shepard save the biotics have added abilities that would aid in stripping shields.

  2. the_man_with The_Answers November 9, 2014 at 11:42 pm -      #602

    “If hardlight really had mass, even the smallest non-zero amount you could possibly give it, then firing it at FTL would ionize the air around you and cause a nuclear explosion large enough to destroy a significant portion of the Earth. It would also require more energy than is in the entire universe. It doesn’t do that, so it doesn’t have mass.”

    Golly gosh! The Forerunners don’t follow the laws of physics! Promethean Knights are made up of just about 100% hard light and they weigh about 1,000lbs. Yeah, Hardlight has mass.

    And it isn’t like Mass Effect ballistics are realistic either. They should have about fuck-all penetrative capability, as extremely high-velocity impacts tend to explode on contact and not penetrate. That, and the projectiles shouldn’t even make it to the target, as their velocity would cause them to wither away from the air resistance.

    “Pretty much every Shepard save the biotics have added abilities that would aid in stripping shields.”

    As far as I’m concerned, Soldier Shepard is the “default,” considering that’s how it looks like he’s portrayed on every box and every trailer. And that gives him… disruptor rounds. Which goes right back to the whole “Have fun getting enough shots on either target” thing.

  3. KASHMIRE777 November 10, 2014 at 12:05 am -      #603

    A mass accelerator propels a solid metal slug using precisely-controlled electromagnetic attraction and repulsion. The slug is designed to squash or shatter on impact, increasing the energy it transfers to the target. If this were not the case, it would simply punch a hole right through, doing minimal damage.

    Accelerator design was revolutionized by element zero. A slug lightened by a mass effect field can be accelerated to greater speeds, permitting projectile velocities that were previously unattainable. If accelerated to a high enough velocity, a simple paint chip can impact with the same destructive force as a nuclear weapon. However, mass accelerators produce recoil equal to their impact energy. This is mitigated somewhat by the mass effect fields that rounds are suspended within, but weapon recoil is still the prime limiting factor on slug velocity.
    from the codex on Mass Accelerators

  4. the_man_with The_Answers November 10, 2014 at 12:12 am -      #604

    To give some perspective on the weapons Prometheans were using on Chief:

    members.shaw.ca/dmz/kk.jpg
    Single hit from a suppressor or light rifle.

    www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=w1E7JtaLraU#t=337
    5:30
    A Promethean fires one burst with the light rifle, it not only takes out the Elite’s shields, it also kills it, and launches it backwards from a seated position in which it already has quite the forward velocity (Keep in mind, Elites weigh about 200kg). That’s a scripted event in the game, meaning it’s canon and not a function of gameplay mechanics.

    Again, those are extremely common weapons to be pointed at Chief, often more than one at the same time.

  5. Warlock Lowk November 10, 2014 at 1:01 am -      #605

    “And that gives him… disruptor rounds. Which goes right back to the whole “Have fun getting enough shots on either target” thing.”

    Chief isn’t fast enough to dodge a stream of hypersonic projectiles. And Shepard enhanced perception and reflexes should allow him to track Chief.
    Not only that but concussive shot can track targets and mix with ammo effect allowing Shep to fire homing exploding emp/freezing/or heat projectiles if he runs out of ammo.

    Also Shepard has access to an assault rifle back in the shitton of ammo figure.
    ==

  6. the_man_with The_Answers November 10, 2014 at 1:27 am -      #606

    The problem is Chief moves fast enough and has high enough awareness to not be exposed long enough to take enough fire to take down his shields, let alone be taken down completely. Same goes for Shepard really.

    I mean, the above video demonstrates light rifles having the punch of high-end AMRs, and Chief has taken on multiple of them at the same time. If “high-power” weapons were a game breaker for Chief, he would have a hard time existing in a land where even the lightest Covenant infantry wield rapid-fire anti-vehicle weapons with some form of frequency.

  7. KASHMIRE777 November 10, 2014 at 1:29 am -      #607

    yeah Shepard is not running out of ammo for any of his guns during this fight or reload

  8. the_man_with The_Answers November 10, 2014 at 1:51 am -      #608

    “yeah Shepard is not running out of ammo for any of his guns during this fight or reload”

    That’s not the problem. The problem is either of them getting enough shots on target before the other gets in cover or otherwise out of the line of fire. Hell, Chief should be the one with the easiest time getting shots on target, as well as being the hardest to hit, seeing as he has both the more insane aiming/target acquisition feats as well as more speed feats for this kind of stuff. We’re talking about a guy who gets a headshot with every bullet while firing as fast as he can one handed and running at 45mph. Shepard’s aiming feats coming from the ambiguous “he has enhanced reflexes and sight.” Which ultimately doesn’t mean a whole lot without actual feats.

  9. Zazax November 10, 2014 at 2:15 am -      #609

    “Golly gosh! The Forerunners don’t follow the laws of physics!”
    Being technologically advanced is not a ‘get out of physics free’ card. Unless we have a good reason to think something isn’t obeying the laws of physics (such as an in-universe explanation of how it works) then we can’t just assume it doesn’t follow them. Otherwise we lose all context for it and it becomes meaningless in comparisons.
    To my (admittedly slightly out-of-date) knowledge of Halo we haven’t had any sort of technical explanation on the specifics of how hardlight works. Until we do, we can’t just assume that it automatically doesn’t obey the laws of physics just because ‘the Forerunners were, like, really advanced, guys.’ Our default stance is ‘physics works’, and we need evidence to overturn that, not the other way around.

    “Yeah, Hardlight has mass.”
    Then the shots fired aren’t FTL.
    Short of Space Magic (in which case the comparison is moot anyways) or some kind of technobabble to explain it (which I’ve yet yet to hear) it’s either one or the other; no mass and FTL or yes mass and STL.

    “And it isn’t like Mass Effect ballistics are realistic either.”
    But ME at least makes a token effort to explain it with Space Magic (YMMV on how successful it is, but it’s there). As far as I can tell, and it is entirely possible I’m simply not fully informed, Halo just presents bafflingly bad science and lets it stand without comment. Which, while normally fine for a soft sci-fi, makes things really hard to compare on our end.

  10. the_man_with The_Answers November 10, 2014 at 2:32 am -      #610

    Being technologically advanced is not a “‘get out of physics free’ card. Unless we have a good reason to think something isn’t obeying the laws of physics (such as an in-universe explanation of how it works) then we can’t just assume it doesn’t follow them. Otherwise we lose all context for it and it becomes meaningless in comparisons.”

    We’re talking about the race that makes time-dilated pocket dimensions, can implant genetic implants that guide a species actions over 100,000 years to reach specific goals, and has 10,000km wide hoola hoops of galactic death…

    “To my (admittedly slightly out-of-date) knowledge of Halo we haven’t had any sort of technical explanation on the specifics of how hardlight works. Until we do, we can’t just assume that it automatically doesn’t obey the laws of physics just because ‘the Forerunners were, like, really advanced, guys.’ Our default stance is ‘physics works’, and we need evidence to overturn that, not the other way around.”

    The fact that “hard light” barely exists as a shadowy concept in modern physics should tell you enough that perhaps Forerunner hardlight isn’t something capable of being described by our understanding of physics. To further this point, the binary rifle is described as using a particle accelerator to launch a jacketed anti-matter round at the target. Yeah, that’s some grounded physics right there.

    “Then the shots fired aren’t FTL.”

    I thought they were light-speed, or like 0.99c

    ” Halo just presents bafflingly bad science ”

    Because the argument wouldn’t be complete without hopping onto the Mass Effect “high horse” of “Well, we’re HARD sci-fi” (If you look past the magic space element that makes everything work, biotics, the omnitool, the fact that the concept behind every single weapon in Mass Effect breaks fundamental physical laws like the conservation of momentum, and all other sorts of things that start to pop out when you look into it).

  11. KASHMIRE777 November 10, 2014 at 3:08 am -      #611

    The main difference between halo and mass effect wanting you to believe their space science/magic is that mass effect actually attempted to explain how and why it could work with their codex and conversations with npc. With halo you got thrown into this war with no information to go off of besides I have a gun and shoot things. Granted later down the road they attempted at given us hard facts but besides their space units which are low to mid tier compared to others their ground game is pretty weak.

  12. Warlock Lowk November 10, 2014 at 3:14 am -      #612

    “That’s not the problem. The problem is either of them getting enough shots on target before the other gets in cover or otherwise out of the line of fire.”

    Chief is a seven foot tall behemoth. What type of cover is he going to be finding that completely cover his.
    Corners aren’t any good because he has projectiles capable of bending around them.
    Plus weapons with sniper rifle like power have shown feats like punching through cover.
    ===
    ” Shepard’s aiming feats coming from the ambiguous “he has enhanced reflexes and sight.” ”

    -Being a highly trained spec operative who has the Most thorough weapon training of the classes(one being a dedicated sniper); probably doesn’t hurt.
    -This youtu.be/9TgTLJXoD_o?t=2m54s
    -He’s tied with Garrus in their little sniper-off.
    -Then there is also
    High-level operatives are outfitted with ocular synaptic processes that allow them to focus on targets with lethal accuracy.

    Shepard does not have the feat to put his aiming skills on chief’s level. But he is still a trained and experienced marksman. With enhanced perception and tech both in him and in his weapons that assist in accuracy.
    Which helps when his target is a 7 foot tall tank on legs.

  13. Warlock Lowk November 10, 2014 at 3:21 am -      #613

    Really guys lets not get into the unrealisticness of the Sci-fi presented.
    One side has space motorcycles being ridden by superninja soldier that can survive a multi-kilometer drop.
    The other has space ninja with the ability to move things with their mind.

  14. OriginalA November 10, 2014 at 3:59 am -      #614

    @TMWTA on Halo’s “bad science” vs ME’s “hard scifi”

    They both use a lot of soft sci-fi tropes. The complaint stems from the fact that ME’s bullshit magic science is internally consistent (with a few exceptions) once you allow for a handful of fictional power sources.

    Halo’s bullshit magic science happens because the writers just suck at keeping things internally consistent. There are legitimate arguments on almost any major scene that shows a feat of firepower if that scene is depicting kiloton or megaton or teraton levels of firepower. There are legitimate arguments that the upper limit of capital ships is limited to less than 10 g’s worth of acceleration or several 10,000 g’s worth of acceleration (from the exact same scene even). Even the NOVA bomb, which is supposed to be a completely mundane but insanely powerful nuke, has a level of firepower that is beyond the sum of its parts and behaves in a manner that does not agree with established lore.

    ME has the (inaccurate) reputation of being a hard sci-fi setting simply because it keeps the logic behind its bullshit in line. It isn’t a hard sci-fi. I’d wager that it is actually softer sci-fi than Halo even (minus the forerunner and flood stuff anyways), but you can almost always trace the reason for bullshit in ME back to Element Zero. With Halo… you’re just lucky if the scene you’re watching agrees with what you saw 2 hours ago.

  15. Zazax November 10, 2014 at 4:08 am -      #615

    “We’re talking about the race that makes time-dilated pocket dimensions, can implant genetic implants that guide a species actions over 100,000 years to reach specific goals, and has 10,000km wide hoola hoops of galactic death…”
    None of which implies they’re capable of doing something that takes literally infinite energy to accomplish.

    “I thought they were light-speed, or like 0.99c”
    The argument I was disputing claimed that it was FTL. Hence the whole ‘either it has no mass or it needs infinite energy’ thing. I believe we may have been arguing over a misunderstanding. Again.
    The exact quote I responded to first:
    “MC’s shields work just fine against weapons that fire FTL shots of hardlight.”

    “Because the argument wouldn’t be complete without hopping onto the Mass Effect “high horse” of “Well, we’re HARD sci-fi””
    You’ll note I actually mentioned that ME was only justified by Space Magic right in that comment. But even a flimsy justification is better than none at all. Although I guess you could give Halo points for audacity.

  16. the_man_with The_Answers November 10, 2014 at 4:10 am -      #616

    “Chief is a seven foot tall behemoth. What type of cover is he going to be finding”

    That’s entirely dependent on the environment the battle takes place in.

    “With halo you got thrown into this war with no information to go off of besides I have a gun and shoot things.”

    Halo:The Fall of Reach came out before Halo:Combat Evolved did. And it’s packed with “technical goodies.” Nice try though.

    “Being a highly trained spec operative who has the Most thorough weapon training of the classes(one being a dedicated sniper); probably doesn’t hurt.”

    Which is a complete non-factor when the competitor has spent as much time training than Shepard has spent in the military, and has spent more time in the military than Shepard has been alive.

    “This youtu.be/9TgTLJXoD_o?t=2m54s”

    Which is a shot I could make with a cheap rifle chambered in .223. Granted that cheap rifle shoots surprisingly well for its quality.

    “He’s tied with Garrus in their little sniper-off.”

    And Garrus’ feats?

    “High-level operatives are outfitted with ocular synaptic processes that allow them to focus on targets with lethal accuracy.”

    Again, back to the ambiguous “enhanced eyesight/focus” which means nothing without feats

    “Which helps when his target is a 7 foot tall tank on legs.”

    Not when your 7ft target also specializes in being a gun-ninja who can move at speeds exceeding 45mph. He could move from cover and get to another piece of cover 10 meters away in 0.5 seconds. Which would be enough time for Shepard’s Avenger to fire approximately 7 shots. When you consider that Shepard also has to react to that first, that drops to 5 or 6 shots. None of which are even guaranteed to hit. Against a target that has a plethora of feats of resisting excessively high-caliber rounds, anti-tank weapons, and so on. I just don’t see either combatant being successful with their guns here.

  17. the_man_with The_Answers November 10, 2014 at 4:21 am -      #617

    “None of which implies they’re capable of doing something that takes literally infinite energy to accomplish.”

    A hardlight projectile moving at the speed of light is infinite energy? But since superluminal lethality is something you question the Forerunners can accomplish, let’s rewind to the title of the franchise:
    www.halopedia.org/Halo_Array
    “The radiation is propelled at superluminal speeds and will eventually propagate at a near-infinite velocity. This was known to generate causal paradoxes when the rings first fired, with two of the Halos reporting pre-echoes of the combined activation before the rings had been fired.[30] Once activated from Installation 00, all installations will cumulatively trigger one another as their radiation fields intersect, amplifying the effects of each individual Halo.[32] The energy discharge covers the Array’s effective range and cleanses it of all affected sentient life”

    Yeah…. so what were you saying about the Forerunners having to abide by our concepts of energy physics?
    -

  18. Zazax November 10, 2014 at 4:55 am -      #618

    “But since superluminal lethality is something you question the Forerunners can accomplish, let’s rewind to the title of the franchise:”
    Plenty of radiation moves at luminal speed already. Light itself is radiation. There are hypothetical particles that move FTL is physics today, but they have either no or imaginary mass. The fact that blasts from the Halos don’t do things like fling planets across the galaxy (or ionize everything they touch) supports that their radiation is of the mass-less variety. This does not translate into being able to blast holes through someone with FTL kinetic projectiles, whether composed of hardlight or otherwise.

    “Yeah…. so what were you saying about the Forerunners having to abide by our concepts of energy physics?”
    I believe it was ‘None of which implies they’re capable of doing something that takes literally infinite energy to accomplish.’

  19. Warlock Lowk November 10, 2014 at 5:42 am -      #619

    “That’s entirely dependent on the environment the battle takes place in.”

    True but I don’t think he’s going to have much in the way of choices for cover in most places.
    Also some ME guns pack quite a punch
    i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd485/infamousColeMacgrath/Mass%20effect/7wRsil_zpsznoa5c1n.gif
    ===
    “Which is a complete non-factor when the competitor has spent as much time training than Shepard has spent in the military, and has spent more time in the military than Shepard has been alive.”

    How is having more time in the military relevant to my argument of Shepard being a trained marksmen? Shepard is N7, you don’t get to that if your a crappy shot. That was the point.
    And if you read ahead I already noted Chief aiming fu is crazy.
    ===
    “Which is a shot I could make with a cheap rifle chambered in .223. Granted that cheap rifle shoots surprisingly well for its quality.”

    Now imagine what you could do if everything moved in slow motion, didn’t have to worry about environmental factors, moved faster then you normally do, and your target his one really big guy.
    And at what distance do think these guys are fighting at?
    ===
    “And Garrus’ feats?”

    Taking out a heavily a mantis trying to kill him with one well placed shoot. And his most used form of assassination seems to be headshot from a distance.
    ===
    “Again, back to the ambiguous “enhanced eyesight/focus” which means nothing without feats”

    But is a statement indicating that it allows for good accuracy.
    ===
    “Not when your 7ft target also specializes in being a gun-ninja who can move at speeds exceeding 45mph.”

    Which is mitigated some by the enhanced speed/perception.
    ===
    “He could move from cover and get to another piece of cover 10 meters away in 0.5 seconds. Which would be enough time for Shepard’s Avenger to fire approximately 7 shots. ”

    No specific cover that may or may not stand up to his weapons. Cover they may or may not protect him from the tracking projectile that can drop his shields or freeze him.
    ===
    ” I just don’t see either combatant being successful with their guns here.”

    Shepard has enough that would allow him to get around the cover scenario. The speed to be able to avoid being blitzed and track chief. And Has at least three means of dropping his shields(Both of the offensive abilities can come in disrutpor flavor). And two means of slowing him down via cryo weaponry both of which don’t need sustained fire to work.
    Shepard ranged game seems to give him a few advantages that could aid in not only dropping Chief defenses but also slowing him down. Two things that seem to be what Chief would rely on keep him in the fight.

  20. the_man_with The_Answers November 10, 2014 at 10:55 am -      #620

    “How is having more time in the military relevant to my argument of Shepard being a trained marksmen? Shepard is N7, you don’t get to that if your a crappy shot. That was the point.
    And if you read ahead I already noted Chief aiming fu is crazy.”

    I never doubted Shepard’s marksmanship. He just doesn’t strike me as being capable of putting dozens of shots on a target that can maneuver through cover at 45 mph. At the same time, I doubt Chief is going to be able to do the same. But if anyone is going to be getting consistent hits, it’s going to be Chief with his aim-bot accuracy.

    “Now imagine what you could do if everything moved in slow motion, didn’t have to worry about environmental factors, moved faster then you normally do, and your target his one really big guy.”

    One really big guy that also can move at 45mph and aim dodge like a mother fucker. Who also sees things in slow motion, and who can also put 8 semi armor piercing HE 50 caliber pistol rounds into the center of my head so fast it sounds like a single gunshot, while running at said 45mph.

    “And at what distance do think these guys are fighting at?”

    Does it matter? Longer range only means it’s harder to aim and Chief is going to be much more capable of staying out of the line of fire. Close range and Chief’s speed is going to make him hard to track, or put down before he closes the distance and demolishes Shepard in H2H.

    “Taking out a heavily a mantis trying to kill him with one well placed shoot.”

    ?

    “And his most used form of assassination seems to be headshot from a distance.”

    Which means nothing without actual events. Cal-141, a SPARTAN with no known sniper specialization, is given a higher marksmanship status than a designated ODST sniper (who was a pretty good shot at that, nailing a relatively small head from what looks like a few kilometers, and who had all of a few seconds to get on target and fire. For perspective, at that distance amazing accuracy would be getting a group with a 8 to 32 inch spread). SPARTANs, in general, are just insanely accurate.

    “Shepard has enough that would allow him to get around the cover scenario. The speed to be able to avoid being blitzed and track chief. And Has at least three means of dropping his shields(Both of the offensive abilities can come in disrutpor flavor). And two means of slowing him down via cryo weaponry both of which don’t need sustained fire to work.
    Shepard ranged game seems to give him a few advantages that could aid in not only dropping Chief defenses but also slowing him down. Two things that seem to be what Chief would rely on keep him in the fight.”

    The nature of both Cryo and disruptor ammo should drastically reduce penetration. And it will be pretty hard for Cryo rounds to significantly slow Chief’s environmentally controlled suit, especially through the shields. Disruptor round are good and all, but that requires Shepard to have insanely good accuracy. Because when your target only reveals himself for fractions of a second, it becomes a lot harder to get shots on target. We’re talking about a guy that has dodged auto-targeting 30mm chaingun fire, closed on the target (with no weapons), then proceeded to rip the exoskeleton apart. That is even without the reaction and speed enhancing functions of MJOLNIR.

  21. erickyboo November 10, 2014 at 3:42 pm -      #621

    John might have new abilities to use, tune in tonight and watch the halo 5 guardians beta thing.

    Halo channel is out.

  22. Warlock Lowk November 10, 2014 at 3:56 pm -      #622

    “He just doesn’t strike me as being capable of putting dozens of shots on a target that can maneuver through cover at 45 mph.
    One really big guy that also can move at 45mph and aim dodge like a mother fucker. ”

    A Target won’t seem to be going 45mph in from you perspective.
    And again this is under the assumption that they are on some kind of cover rich world that where Chief is going to have enough adequate cover for his size that ins’t capable of being penetrated.
    ===
    “?”

    This thing
    img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120412020735/masseffect/images/9/99/ME3_Gunships.png
    ===
    “Which means nothing without actual events.”

    The fact that he can relaibly get head shoot is noted both in combat(gameplay), and in canon info.
    Even shows his preferences hear
    images.tfaw.com/common/salestools/previews/mehw3/mehw3p1.jpg
    Garrus is good enough that headshot are a primary means of elimitnation and he his good enough to get them.
    And why do you keep bringing up spartan feat, no one is disproving anything about their accuracy.
    ===
    “The nature of both Cryo and disruptor ammo should drastically reduce penetration. ”

    Prove it.
    ===
    “And it will be pretty hard for Cryo rounds to significantly slow Chief’s environmentally controlled suit, especially through the shields.”

    Does he have feats against resisting cryo weaponry that can flash freeze a person leaving them shatterable?
    As a matter of fact you keep asking about proof for Shepard’s aim but where your proof that Chief shields will last against the disruptors? Last I checked shields weren’t exactly good against that sort of attack and generally drop in one shot.
    ===
    ” but that requires Shepard to have insanely good accuracy.”

    No it doesn’t. Chief won’t be moving as fast to a highly trained marksmen with enhanced vision and a gun that helps eliminate environmental factors when aiming.
    ===
    “Because when your target only reveals himself for fractions of a second, it becomes a lot harder to get shots on target.”

    Cover that apparently going to very abundant and not only all be big enough to actually hide Chief’s frame and but durable enough to stop Shep’s rounds from hitting him.
    Your scenario is highly dependent on an the environment and it catering to Chief’s needs to for him to achieve a win.

  23. Warlock Lowk November 10, 2014 at 4:17 pm -      #623

    Also Cryo ammo has shown outside of gameplay to be a single shot freeze.

  24. KASHMIRE777 November 10, 2014 at 5:32 pm -      #624

    masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Codex/Weapons,_Armor_and_Equipment
    Has all the codexs on small arms and what not

  25. KASHMIRE777 November 10, 2014 at 5:36 pm -      #625

    Also it says top line weapons have smart targeting that corrects for environment and weather

  26. the_man_with The_Answers November 10, 2014 at 8:33 pm -      #626

    “A Target won’t seem to be going 45mph in from you perspective.
    And again this is under the assumption that they are on some kind of cover rich world that where Chief is going to have enough adequate cover for his size that ins’t capable of being penetrated.”

    We have no idea how fast Commander Shepard “sees” in anything but the short adrenaline burst. And Paragon Lost isn’t exactly the most true to canon depiction (seeing as the weapons look more like lasers, and the fact that anime tends to exaggerate). The Krogan is also using a notably heavier rifle than the Avenger.

    And even if the cover is penetrated, the round is going to lose a significant portion of its energy.

    “This thing”

    Still not getting how that factors into the previous statement. Maybe try rephrasing it or something?

    “The fact that he can relaibly get head shoot is noted both in combat(gameplay), and in canon info.”

    “Reliably getting a headshot” is not even remotely in the same category as S-II accuracy, target acquisition, and precision. Cal, an otherwise un-noteworthy SPARTAN-II (By S-II standards anyways) was already considered a better marksman than a trained special forces sniper capable of getting a multiple kilometer headshot (on a small head nonetheless) on a moving target within seconds of picking up the rifle. Meanwhile you have Chief pulling off insanely fast headshots while running. It’s just another league of aiming ability that has not been demonstrated by any other individual in Mass Effect.

    “And why do you keep bringing up spartan feat, no one is disproving anything about their accuracy.”

    Because in a match where both combatants need to get lots and lots of hits on the other for their weapons to be effective, having a speed, reflex, and accuracy advantage by a wide margin in crucial.

    “Prove it.”

    masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Ammo_Upgrades#Cold_Ammunition
    “Cooling lasers collapse ammunition into small Bose-Einstein condensate – a mass of super-cooled subatomic particles – capable of snap-freezing impacted objects. ”

    Impacted targets. They impact something and freeze it due to the quick “cold snap.” Having rounds that are designed to freeze “soft targets” via impact, but are yet somehow still capable of massively over-penetrating “hard-targets” doesn’t make any sense whatsoever.

    The same principle applies to Disruptor rounds. If they function due to a contact dispersal of an energy field, having them some how selectively not trigger on hard cover is basically impossible without proof that ME munitions are aware of what their target is during flight.

    “Does he have feats against resisting cryo weaponry that can flash freeze a person leaving them shatterable?
    As a matter of fact you keep asking about proof for Shepard’s aim but where your proof that Chief shields will last against the disruptors? Last I checked shields weren’t exactly good against that sort of attack and generally drop in one shot.”

    Chief operates in the vacuum of space. Further more, in Ghosts of Onyx, when Blue Team hijacked a Covenant ship and vented it, temperatures dropped enough to apparently flash freeze an entire Hunter. Yet Blue Team was unaffected. So I’d say MJOLNIR has quite the resistance to cold.

    As far as Disruptor rounds go, almost all Covenant weapons fuck pretty hard with electronics. Plasma Grenades can EMP vehicles and ship systems, plasma pistols the same. It takes multiple seconds for the massive blue sphere of energy drain to fully drop your shields in Halo 3. Something tells me Chief’s shields won’t be affected quite as much as you are hoping by the relatively tiny electrical fields in the projectiles.

    “No it doesn’t. Chief won’t be moving as fast to a highly trained marksmen with enhanced vision and a gun that helps eliminate environmental factors when aiming.”

    But by how much is Chief going to seem slowed? It also doesn’t change the fact that the Avenger can only fire so fast (14rps). And on top of that, hitting something blitzing around, even at a “perceived” 20mph, that is also repeatedly shooting you (Likely in the head) is not easy, even for extremely well trained special forces. Shepard just doesn’t have the aim feats for me to seriously consider that. And, at the same time, I’m saying Chief isn’t likely to be getting as many hits as he needs either, as Shepard is also aware/fast enough to get into and out of cover before real damage is done. Both are well trained enough to not be exposed for a dangerous amount of time.

    Also, since you don’t believe in Chief’s avoidance abilities, here’s a snippet of him without speed and reflex enhancing armor:
    “Floodlights snapped on and illuminated a section of the cavern the size of a football field. In the center
    stood a concrete bunker. Three men in the primitive Mark I power armor stood on top. Six more stood
    evenly spaced around the perimeter. A red banner had been planted in the center of the bunker.
    “Capture the flag?” Dr. Halsey asked. “Past all that heavy armor?”
    “Yes. The trainers in those exoskeletons can run at thirty-two KPH, lift two tons, and have a thirtymillimeter
    minigun mounted on self-targeting armatures—stun rounds, of course. They’re also equipped
    with the latest motion sensors and IR scopes. And needless to say, their armor is impervious to standard
    light weapons. It would take two or three platoons of conventional Marines to take that bunker.”
    Mendez spoke again in the microphone, and his voice echoed off the cavern walls: “Start the drill.”
    Sixty seconds ticked by. Nothing happened. One hundred twenty seconds. “Where are the Spartans?”
    Dr. Halsey asked.
    “They’re here,” Mendez replied. Dr. Halsey caught a glimpse of motion in the dark: a shadow against
    shadows, a familiar silhouette.
    “Kelly?” she whispered.
    The trainers turned and fired at the shadow, but it moved with almost supernatural quickness. Even the
    self-targeting systems couldn’t track it.
    From above, a man free-rappelled down from the girders and gantries overhead. The newcomer landed
    behind one of the perimeter guards, quiet as a cat. He punched the guard’s armor twice, denting the
    heavy plates, then dropped low and swept the target’s legs out from under him. The guard sprawled on
    the ground.
    The Spartan attached his rappelling line to the trainer. A moment later the writhing guard shot upward,
    into the darkness.
    Two other guards turned to attack.
    The Spartan dodged, rolled, and melted into the shadows.
    Dr. Halsey realized the trainer’s exoskeleton wasn’t being pulled up—it was being used as a
    counterweight.
    Two more Spartans, dangling from the other end of that rope, dropped unnoticed into the center of the
    bunker. Dr. Halsey immediately recognized one of them, although he was dressed entirely in black, save
    his open eye slits—Number 117. John.
    John landed, braced, and kicked one guard. The man landed in a heap . . . eight meters away.
    The other Spartan jumped off the bunker; he flipped end over end, evading the stun rounds that filled the
    air. He threw himself at the farthest guard and they skidded together into the shadows. The guard’s gun
    strobed once, and then it was dark again.
    On top of the bunker, John was a blur of slashing motions. A second guard’s exosuit erupted in a
    fountain of hydraulic fluid and then collapsed under the armor’s weight.
    The last guard on the bunker turned to fire at John. Halsey gripped the edge of her chair. “He’s at point
    blank range! Even stun rounds can kill at that distance!”
    As the guard’s gun fired, John sidestepped. The stun rounds slashed through the air, a clean miss. John
    grabbed the weapon’s armature—twisted—and with a screech of stressed metal, wrenched it free of the
    exoskeleton. He fired directly into the man’s chest and sent him tumbling off the bunker.
    The remaining quartet of perimeter guards turned and sprayed the area with suppression fire.
    A heartbeat later, the lights went out.
    Mendez cursed and keyed the mike. “Backups. Hit the backup lights now!”
    A dozen amber floods flickered to life.
    Not a Spartan was in sight, but the nine trainers were either unconscious or lay immobile in inert battle
    armor.
    The red flag was gone.”

    Now Chief is an adult with a speed, reflex, and agility enhancing suit on. You can have fun trying to shoot at that.

    “Also Cryo ammo has shown outside of gameplay to be a single shot freeze.”

    When and on what

  27. Warlock Lowk November 10, 2014 at 11:26 pm -      #627

    “We have no idea how fast Commander Shepard “sees” in anything but the short adrenaline burst. ”

    So, it’s an ability that he can use on command to target chief. Which is one of it’s noted uses.
    ===

    “The Krogan is also using a notably heavier rifle than the Avenger.”

    Assuming Shepard uses an Avenger that might be a problem. Mattock is what the Krogan is using, Shepard has a rapid fire varient of that.
    Even then Mattock is noted as having sniper rifle punch, Shepard has several. So again render the hypothetical abundance of cover less useful.
    Not counting the grenades and the arcing capable projectile that can be slightly bent around corners.
    ===
    “They impact something and freeze it due to the quick “cold snap.” Having rounds that are designed to freeze “soft targets” via impact, but are yet somehow still capable of massively over-penetrating “hard-targets” doesn’t make any sense whatsoever. ”

    Says the old “cryo rounds” of ME1.
    Cryo ammo-This ammo’s payload of supercooled subatomic particles can snap-freeze a target in place, making it vulnerable to extra damage.
    Doesn’t mention that they only works once if the round is strong enough to pass through the to something directly behind it.
    Essentially you’d be looking at the cover being frozen and whatever it hits behind it getting the same treatment.

    Also considering the universe the character you debating do you really have an high ground for what and what doesn’t make sense when both fiction are guilty of saying fuck it, “space tech from the fuuUUuture”.
    ===
    “Chief operates in the vacuum of space.”

    Does space freeze you solid instantly?

    A few recent Hollywood films showed people instantly freezing solid when exposed to vacuum. In one of these, the scientist character mentioned that the temperature was “minus 273″– that is, absolute zero.
    But in a practical sense, space doesn’t really have a temperature– you can’t measure a temperature on a vacuum, something that isn’t there. The residual molecules that do exist aren’t enough to have much of any effect. Space isn’t “cold,” it isn’t “hot”, it really isn’t anything.
    What space is, though, is a very good insulator. (In fact, vacuum is the secret behind thermos bottles.) Astronauts tend to have more problem with overheating than keeping warm.
    If you were exposed to space without a spacesuit, your skin would most feel slightly cool, due to water evaporating off you skin, leading to a small amount of evaporative cooling. But you wouldn’t freeze solid!

    -http://www.geoffreylandis.com/vacuum.html
    —-
    Also says no here
    imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/ask_astro/answers/970603.html
    ===
    “Further more, in Ghosts of Onyx, when Blue Team hijacked a Covenant ship and vented it, temperatures dropped enough to apparently flash freeze an entire Hunter.”

    Got a quote? Because I keep running into things saying space wouldn’t instantly freeze you to the point of shattering. I think might have just found a weakness of Hunters.
    Quick let Oni know to start making cryo guns! Oni is the one still fucking with the aliens right?
    ===
    “The same principle applies to Disruptor rounds. If they function due to a contact dispersal of an energy field, having them some how selectively not trigger on hard cover is basically impossible without proof that ME munitions are aware of what their target is during flight.”

    Where did you get that they require impact to trigger?
    Disruptor ammo-
    First
    “This Ammunition pulses electromagnetically, disrupting shields and synthetic enemies.”

    “This ammunitions electromagnetic properties can cause syntheticss to critically overload and explode.”

    They are bassically Emp emitters in the shape of bullets.
    ===
    “As far as Disruptor rounds go, almost all Covenant weapons fuck pretty hard with electronics. Plasma Grenades can EMP vehicles and ship systems, plasma pistols the same.”

    But doesn’t overcharged shot can generally take out a shield in one hit. That’s generally the one with the EMP effect right.
    Also the same on the grenade launcher that doubles with as an emp.
    ===
    “It takes multiple seconds for the massive blue sphere of energy drain to fully drop your shields in Halo 3.”

    And it takes one shot from a pistol to do so instantly.
    ===
    “Something tells me Chief’s shields won’t be affected quite as much as you are hoping by the relatively tiny electrical fields in the projectiles.”

    EMP projectile that pack enough power to not only fuck with electronics and shields but cause them to explode. Halo’s emp effect seem secondary and only seem to short things out.
    Got any quote’s for on their capabilities. And Resistance to them?
    ===
    “It also doesn’t change the fact that the Avenger can only fire so fast (14rps). And on top of that, hitting something blitzing around, even at a “perceived” 20mph, that is also repeatedly shooting you (Likely in the head) is not easy, even for extremely well trained special forces. ”

    It’s a lot easier when he kinetic dispersing shield and reinforced muscle/skeleton. That’s like saying chief is going to have a difficult time aiming even though he’s taking hit and shielded.
    And he could be slowed or frozen by cryo ammo even if one shot makes contact. So that should help more against the speed.
    ===
    “When and on what”

    i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd485/infamousColeMacgrath/Mass%20effect/cryo%20ammo_zpsiiemephu.gif
    ===
    “Also, since you don’t believe in Chief’s avoidance abilities”

    I do believe in his avoidance ability. It’s one of the reason I don’t believe Shepard’s will get by just on the stock gun you giving him alone. It’ll be hard for Shepard to put him down without aid from his additional abilities and pretty much ever pieces of gear he uses. But your setting up this scenario where chief is going to be in a cover rich world where there is always going to be enough both big and thick(heh) cover for him to run between so that he can advance.
    All while using Shepard’s weakest gun neglecting the scores of other more powerful weapons he owns. Of which he can carry five.

  28. OriginalA November 11, 2014 at 1:07 am -      #628

    “Does space freeze you solid instantly?”

    I just wanted to comment on how quickly space cools things down. … VERY SLOWLY. The flip side of this is that a vacuum severely lowers boiling temperature of liquids. So any open to vacuum liquids that aren’t under pressure (e.g. open wounds exposed to vacuum) would flash vaporize, and then some time later would instantly turn from vapor into a solid as they cool off from radiating their pre-existing warmth; skipping the liquid phase entirely.

    Yeah… If you’re exposed to vacuum without a suit one of the first things that happens is that the water in/on your body that is exposed (e.g. external of your body) begins to boil. That’s your tongue btw. You’re eyes too if you don’t close your eyelids. You’re ears might burst from the sudden change in pressure, which would cause an open wound, which would also boil. You’re lungs explode if you held your breath (unless you held your breath after exhaling). You’re bowel gas might also rupture regardless. TONS of radiation. And then, long after you are dead, you body freezes over (although your tongue and eyes might have frozen over within the first few minutes because of the now-vapor around them and the thermal conductivity they have with the rest of your body; they would expel heat faster than any other part of your body, but not enough to kill you before something else does first).

    Yeah… freezing to death is really the last thing you should be afraid of in space.

    Related, one of the biggest challenges with space flight is keeping the space ships cool. Radiating heat is hard without a medium to dump that heat into (a medium like the air). Most of the heat from those engines gets shunted right into the shuttle because thermal conductivity works best with touch. That heat from the engines touches the engines so it goes into the engines. The engines touch the rest of the ship, so the heat propagates.

    The Master Chief being able to operate in space proves only one thing; his suit is vacuum sealed. That is it. It working in space tells us nothing about it being able to resist stupidly rapid shifts in temperature.

  29. the_man_with The_Answers November 11, 2014 at 1:22 am -      #629

    Well, my response is going to be very delayed. Playing Master Chief Collection

  30. erickyboo November 11, 2014 at 1:55 am -      #630

    Guys, www.gamespot.com/videos/halo-5-guardians-multiplayer-beta-behind-the-scene/2300-6422239/
    Add this to John’s abilities.

    Mjolnir was stated to be EMP hardened I think in the Cole protocol. Shields would be affected I think but not suit as much.

  31. Warlock Lowk November 11, 2014 at 2:01 am -      #631


    Are Bungie and 343 still buddies? Some of these movement options seem pretty Destiny-ish.
    Or maybe it’s just the age of the booster ability. CoD, Destiny, Halo… You think Crysis’ll get one?

  32. OriginalA November 11, 2014 at 3:23 am -      #632

    Console FPS developers are finally beginning to understand that design philosophy of old PC FPS developers from the 90s. The hallway combat that the console FPS market spawned from (Goldeneye) and the pacing of that is falling way to a rebirth to faster more open arena combat of ye ol’ PC FPSs (e.g. Unreal Tournament, Quake, ect).

    In the older PC FPSs, speed and mobility were just as vital as firepower (the typical rocket launcher wasn’t a power weapon as it is now because you could dodge them). While in the hallway combat of Console FPSs, firepower ruled over speed and mobility (speed and mobility are mostly used to secure the power weapons, which are then used corner the other players).

    Titanfall, Destiny, CoD, Halo… They are a merger between the old and the modern to make something that is both and neither. There is nothing new in the Halo 5 multiplayer that hasn’t been done before, but like Halo: CE before it, it is revision of a genre style that is likely here to stay.

    Crysis itself is actually probably the start of this movement, although it is now lagging behind. Crysis 1 was one of the first FPSs in a long time (tempted to say in a decade) that emphasized speed and mobility as much as firepower. YOU are the weapon; not your gun. This newest revision to FPS multiplayer is more in line with 90s era PC FPS Multiplayer like Tribes.

    The reasoning is simple. This is what they’ve always wanted to do. It is only just now that Consoles can keep up with the graphical demands of the modern time (because I’m generalizing over a decade’s worth of games) as well as the computational demands for the combat arena, while maintaining a reasonable frames per second.

    For a game to emphasis speed and mobility the combat arena must be, by demand, large. If you cannot make the arena large because of hardware limitations then you limit the player’s possible actions to conform the arena’s limitations. A smaller fighting area means a slower character to artificially create a zone that takes a longer time to cross.

    Goldeneye did wonders for the FPS genre by making a proof of concept for console controls, but it cost a great deal for the genre in terms of multiplayer conventions at the time. Consoles took over the FPS genre; PC’s took a secondary consideration position on that front, and as such the multiplayer was designed around the console mindset. Consoles are becoming closer to PC specifications and expectations, the FPS mindset is evolving again.

    The rebirth of fast paced arena combat.

    WHICH I”M SO GLAD FOR!!!!

    Maybe they will finally get rid of that stupid arbitrarily slow movement speed and ridiculous health regen system as well. (Both of these systems were adopted by Console FPSs because they slowed the game down to artificially increase distance and duration… and a little anti-frustration). … Baseline movement speed will probably become increased on average over the next several years in FPSs. Health regen is probably here to stay though.

    Still, though, I’m happy to see this growing trend in FPSs. It begins to address one of my major problems with the genre that I’ve had since the mid 2000s (when I realized what it was and realized I didn’t like it).

    EDIT: Also expect an increase in AoE weapons to balance out the increase of movement speed.

  33. erickyboo November 11, 2014 at 3:40 am -      #633

    Halo showed it before call of duty did. Remember the e3 trailer? It showed those abilities. The abilities were shown in escalations too a bit. This does make the gameplay more Spartan like. I can imagine a Spartan charging or something then dodging and clambering on objects then going for the stomp.

    In the cole protocole, a large disc shaped device capable of frying a whole ship is stated to knock out MJOLNIR briefly. The EMP was strong enough at half a mile. So MJOLNIR could handle it I think. Chapter 31.

    How does the cryo armor work exactly? John did go into cryopod in his armour…

  34. Warlock Lowk November 11, 2014 at 4:26 am -      #634

    It’s weird how much I’ve learned because of debating sites.
    Viewpoints of a nihilist. History of FPSs. The true dangers of space. The oddities of time and how it reacts to various factors.
    I think I might have paid more attention in school if more things came in the form of debates.
    ===
    “In the cole protocole, a large disc shaped device capable of frying a whole ship is stated to knock out MJOLNIR briefly. The EMP was strong enough at half a mile.”

    I was already certain Mjolnir can handle EMPs and keep. We were was discussing the effect they had on shields.

  35. erickyboo November 11, 2014 at 7:19 am -      #635

    Oh. Well the whole thing about disruptor rounds and stuff?

    I think it’s visual from Reach, not sure how usable but,.. www.halopedia.org/images/4/4c/T25_Bolt_Study_HR_Temp.jpg

    Looks like mighty EMP. Wouldn’t halo’s vehicles ability to recover be more of a testament of durability? My guess is that each plasma bolt acts like a small scale EMP, but that more powerful EMP blasts can usually temporarily knock stuff out. I don’t think the plasma pistol/grenade launcher are small secondary side effects, more like, features. But I haven’t slept today… so I might be saying nonsense.

    As for rebirth of FPS or something, for halo it seems much more like a natural evolution rather than a specific industry wide goal mindset. And halo influenced FPSs a lot.

    I wonder how much the new abilities will help John fight. I do sometimes wish MJOLNIR had a native long range reusable capability. There is the Autosentry package but that’s an external attachment and not necessarily part of John’s load out although, due to recent events, it would be probably fitting to have him or blue team with not only forerunner weaponry but armor abilities too. Still, that ground pound might seem quite useful. I wonder if John could do something like, sprint, get shot, dodge/thruster into cover, wait for recharge then take then maybe RIP the cover and charge with it and at the sign of grenades or other factor like that, throw the cover and boost out while throwing a grenade, getting closer and closer. Although I wonder, adding in an armor ability, say hard light shield, isn’t it game mechanics that a Spartan simply walks slowly? I don’t see any lore related reason to walk slowly….

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