The Tribunal Vs Doctor Who

The Tribunal Vs Doctor Who

Suggested by Taran Walters

The Tribunal (Alamexia, Sotha Sil & Vivec) from The Elder Scrolls Vs The Doctor (The current one, with Clara & The TaRDiS)

Which side wins?

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33 Comments on "The Tribunal Vs Doctor Who"

  1. Nsl98 September 18, 2015 at 12:08 am -      #1

    For a second there I read this as Living Tribunal. Never mind.

  2. Jake_Uzumaki September 18, 2015 at 12:15 am -      #2

    This is going to either be a short nonsensical debate, derail like hell, or turn into a clusterfuck debate over conceptual abilities

  3. pimpmage September 18, 2015 at 12:27 am -      #3

    So the tribunal… hmm. All 3 members of the tribunal tapped into an artefact of power known as the Heart of Lorkhan. Lorkhan was know as the creator of Nirn, the plane of existance in which the TES universe takes place. All 3 of the tribunal, and one other guy that doesnt matter, were granted portions of lorkhans power. How much of his power you ask? I dunno, thats debatable.

    Vivec in particular stands out from the others. He found out how to give himself complete power over creation. This power, known as CHIM, is like lucid dreaming. The entire TES universe exists within a dream of the Godhead. Vivec found out that he only existed within a dream, and was granted powers to manipulate the dream itself. How much power over manipulating dreams you ask? I dunno, probably alot. Nigh omnipotence for sure.

  4. Commander Cross September 18, 2015 at 2:44 am -      #4

    @Jake the late one at #02

    CHIM can only be trusted to Divine-type entities, leave it to them because giving it to everyone else just leaves unwarranted headaches and Mike Rahl!-/King of Fishers-style+ nutcasery, which then needs to be washed off with another Elder Scrolls vs Legacy of Kain fight for good measure.
    Must I bring up that Abrahamic quote I ALWAYS carry with me and link it here for everything?
    Or do we gotta claim FTL+ and Universe-level!- 40K Space Marines all over again!?
    Your choice.

    Also Initial bets says its either a Draw or it’s the Doctor’s fight to lose here unless he either c-ocks up or the Tribunal gets their Cosmic Horse$hit in high gear.

  5. Fezzes September 18, 2015 at 3:48 am -      #5

    I know very little about the Tribunal, so I’ll hold my horses on judgement. It really depends on the conditions quite a bit IMO though. If it’s the two sides getting teleported in front of each other and made to fight, then we all know what way that’s going. Where are they set? Bloodlust?

    Also, yeah I also read this as the Doctor against The Living Tribunal as well. Made me think back to someone saying that only someone on the level of The Living Tribunal even had a chance against the Doctor. Later pointed and laughed at for blatant insanity.

    In any case, CHIM seems pretty powerful. If the Doctor slips up then he’s probably fucked. There’s only so much that DW Hax can do.

  6. Malenfant September 19, 2015 at 9:12 am -      #6

    I’ve already been over why Vivec/the Triune is largely too vague and contradictory to be accepted in a versus debate.

    factpile.com/11500-chuck-norris-vs-vivec/

    They don’t have anything capable of penetrating the TARDIS.

  7. pimpmage September 19, 2015 at 9:57 am -      #7

    ^”I constantly join matches just to naysay and contribute nothing”

  8. Malenfant September 19, 2015 at 12:29 pm -      #8

    “^”I constantly join matches just to naysay and contribute nothing””

    Just like I did in the last match- oh, oops. If you want to challenge my argument, I’ve presented it. Passive aggressive insults from the sidelines only make my victory more absolute.

  9. Ninja Lowk September 19, 2015 at 12:34 pm -      #9

    Alamexia didn’t seem all that impressive. I mean she teleported in and instantly a bunch of guys that one time in that ESO mission. Which pretty much made everything I did up to that point pointless.

  10. pimpmage September 19, 2015 at 1:02 pm -      #10

    You didn’t present an argument, only an opinion. CHIM is not vague, it gives the user the same power as the godhead. Your kitten lord like stubbornness to accept things makes me laugh at your posts. Remember cctv Camera = necron tech? Weeping angels hiding in eyeballs accomplishing absolutely nothing? Lmfao, that was great.

    @ninja
    Alex appeared in the final expansion of morrowind, but I never progressed that far into it. The third tribunal member appears there as a villain too.

  11. Friendlysociopath September 19, 2015 at 1:53 pm -      #11

    I never did beat all of the Morrowind Expansions- I should do that someday- such a fun game.

    Still, I don’t see The Doctor being able to last against them.

  12. pimpmage September 19, 2015 at 1:58 pm -      #12

    I thought the doctor was described as being a temporal and conceptual anomaly, who has probability alteration and universal reality warping hacks, or was that just wank speech?

  13. Friendlysociopath September 19, 2015 at 2:13 pm -      #13

    I thought the doctor was described as being a temporal and conceptual anomaly, who has probability alteration and universal reality warping hacks, or was that just wank speech?

    AFAIK
    It’s mostly from the novels- which are written by people who have no rights to the character like Star Wars EU.
    He almost never bothers to use those tricks in the show- so I see no reason for him to use them in a match unless he specifically knew better.

    He certainly gets defeated and otherwise fooled quite a bit for supposedly being able to alter reality however he wants.

  14. pimpmage September 19, 2015 at 2:19 pm -      #14

    So the show is the only canon then? Is the doctor mortal? Can he be hurt like any other humanoid?

  15. Friendlysociopath September 19, 2015 at 2:29 pm -      #15

    So the show is the only canon then? Is the doctor mortal? Can he be hurt like any other humanoid?

    Answering in order:
    There is no “official” canon because BBC has never said anything on the subject. Novel enthusiasts take this as a “Well they didn’t say no” approach.
    I personally find that as not good enough- they do not own the rights to said character- they are no better than published fanfiction.

    Define “mortal”.
    He can certainly be slain if that’s what you’re asking. He has reincarnations but so far as we know he’s used them all up.

    Yes- various circumstances and shenanigans aside- he is only slightly better than a regular human so far as physical stats. Two hearts instead of one and so on.

    He can be shot, he can be cut, he can be poisoned, etc. etc.
    All of those things have happened to him in the show, he got out of all of those due to:
    Dalek not hitting him with a full-power blast
    Still being in his regeneration phase, so he grew his hand back
    He got out of that by another Time Lord shooting all of their “reincarnations” into him to keep him alive.

  16. pimpmage September 19, 2015 at 2:38 pm -      #16

    So what powers does the show give him? In my mind right now, I see him as a Harry potter wizard. A mortal with a wand.

  17. pimpmage September 19, 2015 at 2:53 pm -      #17

    Here’s a quote from vivec in morrowind. The main character asks vivec what it is like to be a god:

    To be a God: “It is like being a juggler. Things are always moving, and you learn to know where they are without even thinking about it. Only there are many, many things moving. And sometimes, like any juggler, you drop something. I’m afraid it has become a lot more a matter of dropping things lately. There’s too much to do, and not enough time, and I’m losing my touch. Perhaps I’m growing old. It is a bit like being at once awake and asleep. Awake, I am here with you, thinking and talking. Asleep, I am very, very busy. Perhaps for other gods, the completely immortal ones, it is only like that being asleep. Out of time. Me, I exist at once inside of time and outside of it. It’s nice never being dead, too. When I die in the world of time, then I’m completely asleep. I’m very much aware that all I have to do is choose to wake. And I’m alive again. Many times I have very deliberately tried to wait patiently, a very long, long time before choosing to wake up. And no matter how long it feels like I wait, it always appears, when I wake up, that no time has passed at all. That is the god place. The place out of time, where everything is always happening, all at once.”

  18. Friendlysociopath September 19, 2015 at 3:03 pm -      #18

    So what powers does the show give him?

    Let’s see, been a while since I watched it:
    Sonic Screwdriver – A device that apparently does damn-near anything; create barbed wire, fire off sounds waves, create small energy blasts, turn electronics on and control them, opening almost any kind of door, and the list goes on and on since it’s a “Sci-Fi Omnitool that does everything”. Or almost everything- it cannot “kill, maim, or wound living things”.
    It can put you into circumstances that may lead to those things, but the Screwdriver itself cannot harm a living being.
    Disarm a person of their knife via sound waves? Sure.
    Shatter their eardrums with said sound waves? No.

    He’s very intelligent; he understands almost anything electronic he comes across instantly and has a working knowledge of just about everything in his universe. With time and parts he can create rudimentary versions of… well, anything.

    This is a scattered answer, I need to check some things if I want to join this in earnest.

  19. Malenfant September 19, 2015 at 3:06 pm -      #19

    “You didn’t present an argument, only an opinion.”

    Incorrect. I presented my point, provided proof to support it from the Sermons themselves, countered your own points, and elucidated myself clearly. The only opinion here is yours.

    “CHIM is not vague, it gives the user the same power as the godhead.”

    You can say all you like, it’s hot air without substance to prove it. Moreover, the godhead has no powers, the closest metaphysical description we can glean from TES in all its nonsensical glory is ‘it’s what people call reality’. So your statement isn’t just unproven, it’s self-defeating.

    “Your kitten lord like stubbornness to accept things makes me laugh at your posts. Remember cctv Camera = necron tech? Weeping angels hiding in eyeballs accomplishing absolutely nothing? Lmfao, that was great.”

    Yes, I fondly remember the days were people like you could at least formulate an argument to implode on themselves rather than resorting to tearing apart their reputation the easier way. The past is the past, of course, and remembering it doesn’t change the matter at hand.

    “Here’s a quote from vivec in morrowind. The main character asks vivec what it is like to be a god”

    I hope you don’t seriously think Vivec’s words can be taken at face value, ever.
    @Friendlysociopath

    “AFAIK
    It’s mostly from the novels- which are written by people who have no rights to the character like Star Wars EU.”

    Where is this from? BBC hasn’t spoken on a canon policy, but novels certainly possess the very rights to Doctor Who.

    “He almost never bothers to use those tricks in the show- so I see no reason for him to use them in a match unless he specifically knew better.”

    He always uses them, simply in a subtle manner. More on this later.

  20. pimpmage September 19, 2015 at 3:16 pm -      #20

    “I hope you don’t seriously think Vivec’s words can be taken at face value, ever.”

    QUICK, HE FOUND SOMETHING LEGITIMATE!! ENGAGE ‘DENY EVERYTHING’ MODE!

  21. Malenfant September 19, 2015 at 5:39 pm -      #21

    “QUICK, HE FOUND SOMETHING LEGITIMATE!! ENGAGE ‘DENY EVERYTHING’ MODE!”

    Concession accepted. I’m sorry you think this behavior will ever work.

  22. Darth Bombad September 19, 2015 at 5:42 pm -      #22

    “He can certainly be slain if that’s what you’re asking. He has reincarnations but so far as we know he’s used them all up.”

    Actually he’s gone past his natural regeneration cycle. He now has an
    unknown number of lives left in him, thanks to Gallifrey.

  23. pimpmage September 19, 2015 at 5:49 pm -      #23

    “Concession accepted. I’m sorry you think this behavior will ever work.”

    The straw man is strong with you. Not gonna work. Nothing in that quote can be misinterpreted. He cannot die because he literally comes back on a whim.

    Nothing anyone in the tribunal has is electronic. And time lord will get disintegrated simultaneously by three fireballs from thee people.

  24. Malenfant September 19, 2015 at 6:08 pm -      #24

    “The straw man is strong with you. Not gonna work. Nothing in that quote can be misinterpreted. He cannot die because he literally comes back on a whim.”

    I’m not talking about misinterpretation, and I have no idea why you think I am. I’m talking about how Vivec is an unreliable narrator known for deceiving, lying, murdering your past incarnation, exaggerating, and generally being weird and poetic. Little of what he says is the truth or even supposed to be the truth. Kirkbride and probably Vivec himself have confirmed this.

    But let’s assume that Vehk is being completely honest and the quote is objectively true. Right off the bat Vivec makes the distinction of ‘other gods’ being ‘completely immortal’, which implies he actually can die. Worse yet, this is the result that you will get if you kill Vivec in the game, and unless there is another recorded instance (not written by Vivec) of his death and rebirth testing his claims prove contrary.

    “Nothing anyone in the tribunal has is electronic. And time lord will get disintegrated simultaneously by three fireballs from thee people.”

    Except he won’t, because aforementioned plotshields aside he has the TARDIS, famed for withstanding rather large fireballs, commonly known as ‘supernovae’.

  25. pimpmage September 19, 2015 at 6:13 pm -      #25

    I can discuss the first points later
    So you are going to pull the same ‘weeping angels hide in eyeballs’ shit again? Is the time lord just going to jerk of inside the tardis and not fight like the match demands?

  26. Malenfant September 19, 2015 at 6:46 pm -      #26

    “So you are going to pull the same ‘weeping angels hide in eyeballs’ shit again? Is the time lord just going to jerk of inside the tardis and not fight like the match demands?”

    All I’ve provided is a defense mechanism the Doctor has against what you proposed the Triune would attack with. I haven’t made clear the course of action past that.

  27. pimpmage September 19, 2015 at 7:04 pm -      #27

    Yeah I get that, it’s defensive. What’s he gonna do while hiding? Is that even in character for him to do?

  28. Friendlysociopath September 19, 2015 at 7:24 pm -      #28

    Is that even in character for him to do?

    Technically his character is to walk up to the enemy in a silly fashion and try to figure out their plan.
    This sort of, “Battlefield and enemies- go” scenario doesn’t come up that often. The Doctor doesn’t like to fight.

    He has hidden in the TARDIS before, he has also refused to hide in said TARDIS before, he has also been forcibly separated from his TARDIS before.

    In short (shrug)
    Again with the undefined, I’m allowed to alter my comments hours later, odd.

  29. pimpmage September 19, 2015 at 7:33 pm -      #29

    In other words, he will not immediately turn tail and hide in it the moment the match starts. Would he Start the match inside of it?

    Also, does the tardis have sensors outside? I assume he could do research before he emerges if he starts inside.

  30. Dmtl September 19, 2015 at 8:11 pm -      #30

    I have a question that occurred to me. Where is this battle taking place? I ask this because do the TES characters only have their powers in an Elder Scroll universe? example: Scarlet witch powers are enhanced in DC universe but Flash is apparently powerless in Marvel because no speed force (I read this on here somewhere in another article).
    —————————
    If so I’d say the Doctor probably takes this if it’s in a neutral place since Tribunal wouldn’t have their powers.

  31. pimpmage September 19, 2015 at 8:41 pm -      #31

    “and I have no idea why you think I am. I’m talking about how Vivec is an unreliable narrator known for deceiving, lying, murdering your past incarnation, exaggerating, and generally being weird and poetic. Little of what he says is the truth or even supposed to be the truth. Kirkbride and probably Vivec himself have confirmed this.”

    What proof have you of lying and deceiving? And he specifically talks about the murder of the previous incarnation with the player. He had this to say:

    “We did not murder Nerevar. The legend that we murdered Nerevar comes from a story told by a shield-companion to Nerevar, Alandro Sul, who lived among the Ashlanders. The Ashlanders have retained Alandro Sul’s account as part of their oral histories. The account is persuasive in some details, implausible in others, and is in any case false. I have two accounts of Nerevar’s death here in my library. Read them, and judge for yourself.”

    “Right off the bat Vivec makes the distinction of ‘other gods’ being ‘completely immortal’, which implies he actually can die. ”

    Vivec’s godhood is not natural, he did not come into being at the beginning of nirn like other daedra. He recieves his godhood from the heart of lorkhan. Dagoth Ur has been slowly draining the tribunal of their divinity over a good amount of time, till none of them have it anymore at the end of the main quest. All 3 become mortals. That is what causes the tribunal expansion. Alex goes insane from her loss of powers, murders sotha sil, and tries to murder nerevarine too. The main character kills the now mortal alex.

    “Worse yet, this is the result that you will get if you kill Vivec in the game, and unless there is another recorded instance (not written by Vivec) of his death and rebirth testing his claims prove contrary.”

    That is game mechanics. I will not believe vivec cannot reincarnate himself. Dagoth Ur does it using the heart in the final battle when you kill him, you can kill him unlimited times. The tribunal is all connected to the same heart, so they cannot die either. They choose to not die, like dagoth did.

    Tribunal fight Dagoth Ur: “In the past, the Tribunal made seasonal campaigns to Red Mountain. We slew Dagoth Ur and his kin, though the Heart always revived them in time. Later, when we realized we couldn’t destroy them, we created the Ghostfence to contain the threat. These solutions were effective until Dagoth Ur ambushed us and captured Sunder and Keening. Since that time, our fortunes have waned as his increased.”

    “Dagoth Ur is winning because he is close to the source of power, Lorkhan’s Heart. And because he retains the passion of madness, while we have settled into the lonely and unrewarding posture of dogged dutifulness and perseverance. And, finally, perhaps because he is stronger and smarter than we are, and his followers are more fervent and fanatical. I believe we were careless and complacent, and out-witted. And, in the matter of denying the Nerevarine, we were foolish.”

  32. Nsl98 September 19, 2015 at 9:03 pm -      #32

    @Dmtl
    If no battlefield is specified, then it is assumed that it is a neutral setting where the combatants can operate at max efficiency.

    You can read more here:
    factpile.com/2812-factpile-debating-rules/

  33. Malenfant September 19, 2015 at 10:28 pm -      #33

    “Yeah I get that, it’s defensive. What’s he gonna do while hiding?”

    Materialize the TARDIS around individual members of ALMSIVI, cutting them off from each other? Attack them in the past and/or future?

    What proof have you of lying and deceiving?

    He often skips or ignores crucial parts in his precious Sermons for what can only be described as personal reasons, eg Nerevar’s rise to power (see: other thread), as you proved outright lies about killing Nerevar (to his reincarnation), Michael Kirkbride indicated that the Sermons were simply unreliable altogether in an IRC interview.

    “And he specifically talks about the murder of the previous incarnation with the player. He had this to say:

    “We did not murder Nerevar. The legend that we murdered Nerevar comes from a story told by a shield-companion to Nerevar, Alandro Sul, who lived among the Ashlanders. The Ashlanders have retained Alandro Sul’s account as part of their oral histories. The account is persuasive in some details, implausible in others, and is in any case false. I have two accounts of Nerevar’s death here in my library. Read them, and judge for yourself.”

    Except for his hidden admission of guilt in the Sermons: www.imperial-library.info/content/thirty-six-lessons-obscurity-and-deception

    “If we take the numbers from sermon 29, use them to take out words from appropriate sermons and put them together, we will get a secret message:

    “He was not born a god. His destiny did not lead him to this crime. He chose this path of his own free will. He stole the godhood and murdered the Hortator. Vivec wrote this.”

    Also, if we take the first letters of all the paragraphs of sermon 36 with the exception of the last one, we will get another secret message:

    “FOUL MURDER.””

    As for why, well, Vivec did have a nation to rule for the time being, after all.

    “Vivec’s godhood is not natural, he did not come into being at the beginning of nirn like other daedra. He recieves his godhood from the heart of lorkhan. Dagoth Ur has been slowly draining the tribunal of their divinity over a good amount of time, till none of them have it anymore at the end of the main quest. All 3 become mortals. That is what causes the tribunal expansion. Alex goes insane from her loss of powers, murders sotha sil, and tries to murder nerevarine too. The main character kills the now mortal alex.”

    So their demerits are automatically fixed for purposes of the match? This is really not an avenue you want to go down with the Doctor.

    “That is game mechanics. I will not believe vivec cannot reincarnate himself.”

    If that’s your refutation, you’re going to have to believe it.

    “Dagoth Ur does it using the heart in the final battle when you kill him, you can kill him unlimited times. The tribunal is all connected to the same heart, so they cannot die either. They choose to not die, like dagoth did.”

    Say who? The facts suggest what you’re saying is wrong,

    “Dagoth Ur is winning because he is close to the source of power, Lorkhan’s Heart. And because he retains the passion of madness, while we have settled into the lonely and unrewarding posture of dogged dutifulness and perseverance. And, finally, perhaps because he is stronger and smarter than we are, and his followers are more fervent and fanatical. I believe we were careless and complacent, and out-witted. And, in the matter of denying the Nerevarine, we were foolish.”

    Assuming you’re correct, then it seems the Tribunal is still weakened and fractured as it is.

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