Babylon 5 Vs Honorvesre

Babylon 5 Vs Honorvesre

Suggested by Ordo11

Babylon 5 will go up against Honorvesre.

This fight takes place with 2 separated galaxies for each team. There is a wormhole that connects the 2 galaxies. All groups are in this fight. Spy nets are allowed and all weapons are free. Pis is in effect for both universes.

Who will win?

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22 Comments on "Babylon 5 Vs Honorvesre"

  1. Kytheros September 3, 2015 at 1:02 am -      #1

    What kind of wormhole? That is, what rules are connected to it? For example, is it like the wormholes in Star Trek, where all you need to do is fly in and you travel through to the other side without needing anything special, or is it like the wormholes in the Honorverse where you’re fucked if you don’t have the right tech used in the right manner?
    Also, where is the wormhole located relative to each side? How long between wormhole discovery and hostilities beginning? That is, how long does each side have to try to start infiltrating/mapping the other side? Or to set up defenses on their end of the wormhole?
    .
    I believe the Honorverse has a significant base firepower and range advantage. I am unsure about what kind of numbers (in terms of warships) B5 has, but I suspect they’re outnumbered. The ground war, and any boarding actions, I suspect is also heavily in favor of the Honorverse, as power armor is standard issue, whereas I don’t remember seeing all that much in the way of ground war/personal combat technologies from B5.
    One advantage that B5 may be able to use would be its telepathic types, though I don’t remember all that much about their abilities and range.
    .
    Really wish Weber would get the next main line Honorverse novel out. Damned cliffhanger endings, or at least, ending the books without coming to some level of resolution. Ah, well, he’s loads better than GRRM, with much better reason.

  2. Ordo11 September 3, 2015 at 1:16 am -      #2

    I actually think b5 has the numbers advantage, unless you are really counting Dollie ships. UnLess this takes 2 years or so there are no new ships that have mdms, unless they are andermani.

    Current incarnation is probably the best as the sollies lost a couple of fleets, the manticorans lost their shipyards along with Grayson losing their shipyards. They are getting less tech all along. The sharks are useless as they are probably weaker than b5 ships, and b5 ships can probably detect them.

    So moriarty platforms will probably be the most annoying thing as they launch a hell of a lot of missiles.

    Let’s make wormhole like honorverse except b5 just has to use their ftl instead of hyper.

  3. Crystalion445 September 3, 2015 at 9:09 am -      #3

    Darn you, BankGambling for pitting my favorite universes against each other!
    —————————————————————————–
    All cursing aside, I think the win goes to the Honorverse. They have a superior range compared to any of the B5 races can output. However, it would have to be hard fought, as the B5 forces can use their jump drive to get within effective range and Alpha strike.

  4. Ordo11 September 3, 2015 at 9:40 am -      #4

    I don’t know about that, except for sollies they only have 4 or 5 thousand effective ships, almost completely concentrated within 3 or 4 groups. As often stated quantity has a quality all its own.

  5. Crystalion445 September 3, 2015 at 2:18 pm -      #5

    What are the chances, if B5, somehow, captures of Sollie ships, that they might be able to decode them? If they can, that might present a succinct boost to the power of B5.

  6. Kytheros September 3, 2015 at 3:00 pm -      #6

    I don’t know B5 ship numbers – it’s been a few years since I last watched it, Crusade, and the movies. However … from what I remember, warship counts were not particularly high, and combat ranges were quite low.
    Sollie ships, from what I remember of B5 would be plenty sufficient, assuming they managed to find even semi-competent crews and commanders.
    .
    Haven and its yards are fully intact. Ditto Erewhon and Maya. Also the MAlignment Cataphracts. Beowulf is doing full Manticoran tech. Also, Manticore has missiles back under production in Trevor’s Star.
    Plus, since Universe Match, rebuilding is less complicated.
    .
    Honorverse-style wormhole? What kind of mass limit, and how big a terminus?
    You do remember in the Honorverse Wormhole assaults are incredibly high casualty events – to the point that attacking a defended wormhole is tantamount to suicide?
    Presuming both sides arrive in force at the wormhole functionally simultaneously, or have time to fortify their end, it winds up being more or less a straight slugging match, which is something even the SLN ought to be able to handle. Frankly, until a beachhead is established on side B5 and the Honorverse owns both ends of the wormhole, I wouldn’t send anything but Sollies (without Cataphracts) through. Sollie ships, especially Battle Fleet’s superdreadnoughts, are still mostly in the design paradigm of (Honorverse) energy range combat being king, not long range missile storms, and a wormhole assault is absolutely energy range. Plus, on the off chance that B5 manages to take one mostly intact and the war is a prolonged one, long enough for technology to be reverse engineered and deployed, it’s obsolete by Honorverse standards. There are, after all, roughly 1600 Sollie SDs active after the losses to Manticore, that, while little more than floating coffins against a Manticoran/allied fleet, still massively out range and outgunned B5
    B5 ships, from what I remember, have incredibly limited range, firepower, and durability relative to the Honorverse.

  7. Ordo11 September 3, 2015 at 3:04 pm -      #7

    Really, I thought since they were set against Star Trek they would have the speed and durability to close, huh. Guess this wasn’t as good as I thought.

    Also didn’t they ally a fleet together with thousands of ships to fight the shadow?

  8. Crystalion445 September 3, 2015 at 3:13 pm -      #8

    Yeah, they did. At least as far as I remember. And then the Vorlons went bat-guano insane and started blowing up planets. Speaking of that, how would the Vorlons handle in this?

  9. Kytheros September 3, 2015 at 3:22 pm -      #9

    Are there any Vorlons left in the B5 verse? Or any of the old super-races? I thought they pretty much wiped each other out and then any survivors got shown the door?
    If there are any left to matter, they might be able to have an impact, but I don’t think that there are. Also, I don’t think that their planet busting weapons are particularly viable in ship-to-ship combat anyways.

  10. Crystalion445 September 3, 2015 at 7:00 pm -      #10

    It kind of depends on the era. Me myself, I use the time from season 2-4. Is this the proper era? Or am I wrong, and the B5 ‘verse is going without 2 ships and their respective races that could actually make a dent…

  11. itcheyness September 3, 2015 at 7:26 pm -      #11

    Honorverse fights at relativistic speeds so they probably stomp.

    Weren’t their shields also impervious to all but a few types of weapons?

  12. Ordo11 September 3, 2015 at 7:40 pm -      #12

    Well put the b5 folks at best era for the fight.

    Honorverse have sidewalks then shields. The sidewalls basically work on the principle of does it go through? If not it is at full strength. Lasers go through them so I don’t see b5 having a problem with them.

    Actually it is murder for the forts as well. The manticorans had to prepare a contingency for if the peeps sent through their battleships in one massive wave they would take a quarter of the forts out.

  13. Kytheros September 3, 2015 at 7:57 pm -      #13

    @Crystalion
    Standard is most chronologically advanced point with reliable info. That is also known as latest incarnation. Which … I’m not completely sure about where that is for B5, might technically be one of the movies, or Crusade.
    .
    Honorverse ships don’t usually fight at relativistic velocities, although the can easily and safely reach such velocities, and their missiles, or at least the most advanced and longest range missiles, can hit a maneuvering target from light minutes away with a terminal velocity of over 0.8c.
    .
    @Ordo
    Sidewalls are absolutely death on physical or particle weapons, true. However, even lasers are weakened by sidewalls – they’re attenuated and bent by passing through a sidewall, and Honorverse lasers are way more powerful than B5 lasers to my knowledge.
    The sim you’re talking about was a pre-war scenario – and it was 200 bships in a single surprise mass transit against the older, smaller forts that were closers to the terminus, without active minefields. Doctrine has changed since then, as has fort design and the technology has improved since then. Also, it should be remembered that Peep battleships out range and outgun B5 verse warships rather substantially. The scenario you refer to should not be automatically compared to this match.

  14. Crystalion445 September 3, 2015 at 8:47 pm -      #14

    So, we could possibly get the Crusade, and the Earth Alliance Warlocks. But Omegas and Starfuries are still fairly prominent.
    ————————————————————————-
    While we’ve been talking about Earth Alliance, what about potential allies? The Narn Regime? The Centauri Republic? The Minbari? What do they bring to this, besides being a force multiplier?

  15. itcheyness September 3, 2015 at 9:59 pm -      #15

    “What do they bring to this.”

    More ships for the Honorverse to zip around and bury with missiles from far outside of their range probably.

    Fun Fact: The Warlock Class is probably one of my favorite starship designs ever. and I’m still pissed that Crusade was cancelled before I got to see them in a fleet action.

  16. Crystalion445 September 3, 2015 at 10:09 pm -      #16

    @itchey: Yeah, I know, I was pissed about that too. They were awesome.

    Also, the Vorlons and the Shadows bring planet-destroyers, that could be used to… interesting effect. And, the Shadows could infiltrate the various Honorverse governments and really screw things up, politically at least.

  17. Ordo11 September 4, 2015 at 12:17 am -      #17

    Wonder what the mesan nano bot virus thing will do to the humans and others…

    I think they will do more. Also yeah doctrine did change, didn’t they add more missile pods with the new 23s? The system defense one?

  18. Kytheros September 4, 2015 at 1:16 am -      #18

    They also put the forts further out. And made the forts bigger and tougher. All the pre-war forts got decommissioned after Manticore had secured Trevor’s Star and the terminus there. All the forts on the Junction are new.
    The 4 drive system defense missile is the Mark 25, I think.
    The Mesan takeover nanotech is of limited utility under controlled/optimal conditions, and of zero use here without a significant timeframe of no hostilities/peaceful contact. There may be some bioweapons or nanotech weapons that we haven’t seen yet, there probably are, but we don’t know anything about them.
    .
    I don’t think there are any Vorlons or Shadows left in B5’s current incarnation. Besides … I don’t think their planet destroying weapons are viable in ship-to-ship combat. And until one side or the other can secure the far end of the wormhole, they’re not going to be able to get at the other side’s planets or governments.
    .
    Without a lengthy period of peace/cold war/no open hostilities before the match begins, neither side can infiltrate the other. I suppose that after one side manages to secure the other end of the wormhole, they might be able to try, but at that point, it’s probably just a matter of time before they win anyways – if you can insert an agent, you can deploy bioweapons if you can’t take the defenses and flatten the planet outright.

  19. Ordo11 September 4, 2015 at 8:17 am -      #19

    Put the b5 guys at the point in time where they fight at there best.

    Okay guess I screwed up.

  20. BC September 8, 2015 at 9:25 am -      #20

    “ Put the b5 guys at the point in time where they fight at there best.

    Okay guess I screwed up. “

    I would not call it screwed up. Actually it is better without the Vorlons or Shadows; without them the similarity is closer since it eliminates the super-psi weapons and most of the other fuzzy metaphysical First Ones stuff and makes this match a battle of normal people and their tech. By the time of the current incarnation they have the anti-proton beam weapons and adaptive living armor, along with improved drive systems based on Vorlon and Shadow tech though they are far from general use as yet. That and a few more or less unique artifact knickknacks here and there and of course a little bit of Centuri ‘technomagic’ tricks.

    The combination of vortex jump points, tight jump points, and shimmer transfer to and from hyperspace might even complicate things for the Honoverse tacticians trying to predict what the B5 people are doing and where they will be at any given point in the battles.

    White stars with their tight portal hyperspace drives, extreme agility, and heavy ECM/ECCM output should be able to get close enough to get in up-the-kilt or down-the-throat shots with their beam weapons without getting caught by broadside weapons. They would still take casualties from the chase weapons of course, but it would not be the disaster getting caught by the broadsides would be.

    Victory class destroyers like Excalibur, in addition to the other heavy weapons it carries has that heavy Vorlon gun which has the range advantage over Honorverse beam weapons and can (according to dialog so it may be slightly exaggerated, but probably not since it killed a Drach battleship firing through a ceres-sized asteroid to get to it) punch a hole right through the moon. Of course using the gun completely drains the ships power and renders it helpless for a few minutes until the ship reboots so its usefulness is rather limited even though it could probably gut a superdreadnaught in one up the kilt shot with it. Also, since Victory was destroyed in battle and the third Victory class ship went up with the only shipyard tooled for the construction of the class Excalibur is the only one available for a few years while new yards are constructed and the next ships built.

    The fact that the more advanced Alliance ships do not do true delta-v style vectors, at least partially bending their course like ‘airplanes in space’ instead would also give them at least a slight maneuver advantage as well. If used right it could make up for their generally lighter ships disadvantage to some degree.

    I would say that the potential balance is close enough that one side does not completely overwhelm the other right out of the gate.

  21. Kytheros September 8, 2015 at 9:05 pm -      #21

    I agree that the Shadows and Vorlons would make things harder to talk about with the crazy psionic abilities. Having them around would be a bit like having the Q or the Organians in a Star Trek match.
    .
    “Only” getting hit by Honorverse chasers sounds like an improvement, until you realize that in the Honorverse, chase mounts are significantly bigger and heavier firepower than the broadside mounts are. And if you’re in a position to make a throat or kilt shot on an Honorverse ship with B5’s short range weapons, you’re probably also in a position to get hit by the wedge of a missile or countermissile that just got launched, which is even worse (for you).
    .
    What is the range on that big gun? I believe that it outranges B5verse weapons, but without numbers I’m not ready to concede it a range advantage over Honorverse energy weapons, as they are good at a few light seconds of range.
    .
    Particle beams and physical projectiles are worthless against sidewalls. Only laser-type weapons can get through sidewalls without specialized grav-tech to penetrate sidwalls.
    .
    While the higher tech B5verse ships do have the space atmosphere maneuvering tech, I am doubtful about their acceleration/combat speeds being particularly high – especially since B5verse combat ranges are tiny relative to Honorverse combat ranges. They might take a few more shots to hit, but I don’t think there are all that many of them either.
    I think it is quite unfortunate that Crusade got cancelled, as happens with way too many science fiction shows.

  22. BC September 9, 2015 at 8:21 am -      #22

    “ “Only” getting hit by Honorverse chasers sounds like an improvement, until you realize that in the Honorverse, chase mounts are significantly bigger and heavier firepower than the broadside mounts are. “

    True, but there are far fewer of them due to space limits in the hammerheads and they are usually relatively narrow arc fixed emplacements which the B5 ships can use their higher agility and horrendous ECM/ECCM systems against to better effect than they would against the more limber and numerous broadside guns. Ships that did get hit by the chasers would probably get shredded in quick order though.

    “ And if you’re in a position to make a throat or kilt shot on an Honorverse ship with B5’s short range weapons, you’re probably also in a position to get hit by the wedge of a missile or countermissile that just got launched, which is even worse (for you). “

    The missile wedges are not exactly huge so unless the B5 forces decided to go hull-skimming the missiles would have to get close enough for their wedges to hit. That would not be easy at short or medium ranges because of the agility, EW, and point defense I pointed out earlier. In fact at close range individually fired missiles would be hard pressed to get lock before they pass the targets and have to fight the mass-driver boost to come back at the B5 ships, and pods slung at high speeds would have it even worse since the missiles they fire would have even less time to lock-on.

    Another thing is that B5 weapons are not as short ranged as you may think though the most memorable battles on the show were the desperate hull-skimming ones where they were trying to ‘get under’ the enemy guns. Often they show beams or bolts firing off into the distance, converging on no visible target with dialog of hits and misses a few seconds later (or camera cuts to the target location showing them).

    A good example is in the battle of Gorash VII, several of the relatively primitive (only slightly higher tech than Earth at the beginning of the series) Narn G’Quan class cruisers combine fire on a single Battlecrab invisible in the distance (and hit the same ‘leg’ no less). Also, a battlecrab firing at 1:33 on a Narn ship shows the beam hit at 1:34 (unfortunately I cannot get a closer time value at the moment, I need to get the video editing software for my current machine that I used to use to analyze frame by frame) which implies significant range. At first glance it looks like the two fleets are close but really they spend most of the fight out of sight range of each other.
    www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzBYJVa0qLw

    Another thing that just occurred to me is that the B5 ships often have relatively wide firing arcs even on their main weapons so once they worked out the situation they could use the Honorverse ships own wedges against them by using angle tricks with their maneuverability and firing arcs though the choreography might be difficult.

    “ What is the range on that big gun? I believe that it outranges B5verse weapons, but without numbers I’m not ready to concede it a range advantage over Honorverse energy weapons, as they are good at a few light seconds of range. “

    So far I have not found anything solid on the main gun’s range. There are little hints here and there but the closest anything comes to a long range number is when Gideon delays firing because he does not want to hit the planet behind the enemy and the earthlike planet is about the apparent size of the earth seen from the moon. It does not even say if the range to the planet would be considered long range or medium or whatever. So it most likely reaches out at least a lightsecond or so, but how much further it may be able to reach is unknown.

    Oftentimes they would show the Excalibur’s secondarys firing off into the distance against invisibly distant targets like they did in B5 itself, but like those it is not particularly helpful in determining range numbers beyond a general feel for ‘pretty far away’. I really wish the series was completed instead of cancelled, maybe they would have had something concrete in dialog in some later show.

    “ Particle beams and physical projectiles are worthless against sidewalls. Only laser-type weapons can get through sidewalls without specialized grav-tech to penetrate sidwalls. “

    Minbari use a lot of gravitic technology, including something a lot like grazers. Sharlin class cruisers supposedly have several of them in addition to the big anti-proton beam weapon (it is rather irritating that while production crew (and sometimes cast, in dialog) threw out a lot of weapon names nothing was ever done to definitively say which ones were which and everyone seems to guess differently so you cannot just count the mounts and make a list). Delenn even used a gravity-generator weapon in the pilot that was housed in a rather large finger ring on G’Kar when he annoyed her too much with threats.

    Centauri would have a lot of trouble with sidewalls since their favorite weapon seems to be those rapid pulse plasma balls but they would probably hurt in up the skirt shots.

    “ While the higher tech B5verse ships do have the space atmosphere maneuvering tech, I am doubtful about their acceleration/combat speeds being particularly high – especially since B5verse combat ranges are tiny relative to Honorverse combat ranges. They might take a few more shots to hit, but I don’t think there are all that many of them either. “

    The space-turn stuff seems to be an aspect of the B5 gravitic drives in general so Minbari, Centauri, Vree, and a few others including Shadowtech Earthforce stuff and Drakh ships (if the Drakh are in this fight, the PIS thing in the match header makes it unclear to me if they would be or not) are all capable of it to some degree or another.

    I am not sure about acceleration exactly, they do not give any numbers on that directly, but the Minbari (and probably other Vorlon and Shadow influenced tech users) would have the energy to pour into it. The younger civilizations like Terrans and Narn and most of the independents use fusion reactors but the more advanced ones use quantum singularity power with fusion as a secondary power source. Unfortunately with all the camera swinging and short choppy shots they do it is impossible to get a good estimate of acceleration.

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