Reach Vs 8th and 2nd fleets

Reach Vs 8th and 2nd fleet

Suggested by Ordo11

Reach (Halo) vs. 8th and 2nd fleets (Honorverse)

The Covenant and the UNSC are teaming up to take on the mysterious fleets that showed up and blew one of the covenant’s ships up.

The aggressor fleet is composed of 8th fleet (alliance from Honorverse) as of execution of operation buttercup, and of 2nd fleet (Republic of Haven Navy, also from Honorverse) as of just before attack on Sidmore station.

Fight is over Reach, the attacker’s goal is to take Reach, before them, and their supply train run out of missiles. The defenders goal is to either annihilate the attackers, or survive until the attackers run out of ammo.

Who will win?

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11 Comments on "Reach Vs 8th and 2nd fleets"

  1. Ordo11 August 17, 2015 at 12:11 am -      #1

    So 8th fleet at this time has CoLacs and Harringtons. Honor isn’t in charge though so and no invictuses will help. Best hope for halo forces will be to try and survive the missle storm from the Harringtons, kill the lacs before they reach them and hope the enemy wastes lots of ammo.

  2. erickyboo August 17, 2015 at 12:12 am -      #2

    What are feats for Honorverse?
    There are around 315 covenant ships, including the Long Night Of solace, and some 152 UNSC ships.

  3. Ordo11 August 17, 2015 at 12:22 am -      #3

    So at least they outnumber the Honorverse ships.

    Honorverse missiles in this Time should only hit them at 16,000,000 kilometers or so. The covenant is probably going to be the only ones who can stop the enemies missiles as they need to be destroyed before 20,000 kilometers or the laserheads will rip the Unsc ships to shreds in seconds.

    Halo is going to have to hug the planet. They either have to stay together, unless they can’t stop the missiles at all before 20,000 kilometers. They can’t keep up with honorverse ships as they can reach 80% of light speed, but they are more likely to be going around 15,000 kps. Really the fighters probably won’t do anything.

  4. Oh, Answerer Of The Unanswerable August 17, 2015 at 12:26 am -      #4

    Honorverse ships have shields (or something equivalent to shields), right? How strong are they? And their weapons? I heard the math was all in the books, so can someone inform the ignorant? Ha.

  5. erickyboo August 17, 2015 at 12:28 am -      #5

    So how many missiles do they have and what do they do? Because UNSC ships might go ahead and sacrifice themselves to intercept them. It’s part of their mindset.

  6. Kytheros August 17, 2015 at 12:29 am -      #6

    The UNSC and the Covenant and Reach at what points? Just before the Fall of Reach? How much of each side?
    Is it the forces that were at the Fall of Reach suddenly allied against 8th and 2nd fleets?

    How much information do 8th and 2nd fleets have about the capabilities of the UNSC/Covenant ships?

    Also, is it take the orbitals, supress/neutralize ground-to-orbit defenses, and the planet surrenders, or is it required to actually ground pound and clear out all the dirtside forces the hard way*?
    *In the Honorverse, planets typically surrender once the orbitals have been secured, because refusal to surrender at that point lets the attacker drop all the KEW at your ground-based military they want and nobody will say anything about it – and Honorverse KEW planetary bombardment capability is both scary accurate and scales from targeting a specific individual up to c-frac impacts.
    8th and 2nd fleets, while carrying their standard complements of Marines, would not really be supplied for extended amounts of ground-slogging combat – that’s generally the purview of idiots, as macro-resistance gets hammered from on high, and even meaningful micro resistance can get picked off from on high, assuming you don’t mind risking some damage to the local real estate.

  7. Ordo11 August 17, 2015 at 12:59 am -      #7

    Okay so the ships have 2 wedges,mother are impenetrable, at least taking exotons, unless two wedges collide.

    Then there are sidewalls they are much weaker versions, as they let honorverse weapons hurt the ship and the bow and stern have no shields, unless it is a have its ship, or a lac.

    They should have around 300-400 capital ships with each spewing oh around 200 missiles each. The cimitares will kill any fighters with ease and strengthen their missle defense.

    She shuddered inside at the thought of what a mere hundred thousand-ton short-haul freighter could do if it hit, say, Manticore, at twenty or thirty thousand kilometers per second. A ten-teraton explosion would pretty much ruin the local real estate values. Michelle was no historian herself, certainly not to the extent Honor was, but Admiral Grimm, who’d seen all the ACS threat analyses and recommendations, had told her that an impact like that represented something like sixteen times the destructive power of the meteor impact which was supposed to have killed off Old Earth’s dinosaurs. Given the fact that the danger represented by her ship was pounded into the head of every ACS-certified planetary approach pilot from Day One of her training, the idiots who were complaining certainly ought to understand why the new rules—including the “two-man” rule—were in place.

    Storm from the shadows, chapter 12.

    So their Lacs are 20,000 – 40,000 tons ish depending on if they are havenite or manticoran. The unsc missiles will be almost too dumb to be blocked by ecm and this is before keyhole so they will be a little more annoying.

    I meant for this to be at the very beginning and all Unsc and Covenant forces that participated.

    Also graser the Lacs weapons and this is actually a similar version to the ones Manticoran Lacs mount.

    Achmed staggered as the first massive graser blew effortlessly through her sidewall. Her flanks carried over a meter of armor, the toughest alloy of ceramic and composites man had yet learned to forge, and the graser tore through it with contemptuous ease. Huge splinters blew out of the dreadful wound, and her relative motion turned what should have been a single puncture into a huge, gaping slash. It opened her side like a gutting knife opening a shark, and air and wreckage and human beings erupted in a howling cyclone.

    Honor among enemies, chapter 40.

    An impeller drive vessel’s nodes generated a pair of inclined, plate-like gravity waves which trapped a pocket of normal space in their wedge-shaped grasp. The ship floated in that pocket, like a surfer poised in the curl of a comber which, in theory, could have been accelerated instantaneously to light-speed, taking the vessel with them. But minor practical considerations—like the fact that it would have turned the ship’s crew into paste—mitigated against it, and the fact that the physics of the drive required the bow and stern aspects of the wedge to be open limited the maximum speed of any starship, as well. Whatever its possible acceleration, the open throat of a ship’s wedge meant it had to worry about particle densities and the rare but not unknown micro-meteorite. A warship’s particle and anti-radiation fields let her pull a maximum normal-space velocity of .8 light-speed in the conditions which obtained within the average star system (max speeds were twenty-five percent lower in h-space, where particle densities were higher, and somewhat higher in areas of particularly low densities), but merchant designers wouldn’t accept the expense and mass penalties of generators that powerful. As a consequence, merchantmen were limited to a maximum n-space velocity of about .7 c and a max h-space velocity of no more than .5 c . . . and Wayfarer was a merchant design.

    Honor among enemies, chapter 9.

    So there is there speed stuff too.

    A really smart future admirals reaction to before the Harrington class ships ships armed with similar missle systems.

    Warner Caslet stared at the plot in disbelief as the missile traces spawned like hideous serpents of light. He whirled to the visual display, and then staggered back a step as the laser heads detonated. The range was little more than a light-second and a half, and the savage white glare of nuclear fire stabbed at his eyes despite the optical filters.

    God, he thought numbly. Dear sweet God, this is only a Q-ship! What the hell happens if they fit a warship with . . . with whatever the hell that was?!

    Honor among enemies, chapter 29.

    So yeah they use nukes to make lasers shoot out their missiles, and btw those are sort of “shaped nukes” they use to create the laser beam. I will get you guys more quotes tomorrow.

  8. Ordo11 August 17, 2015 at 1:07 am -      #8

    Actually I will get them to you as I find them,

    How a laser head works, ignore the mark 23 they aren’t using it.

    Chapter 30 storm from the shadows.

    There was a reason it had taken so long for the laser head to replace the contact nuclear warhead as the deep-space long-ranged weapon of choice. The basic concept for a laser head was actually quite simple, dating back to pre-Diaspora days on Old Terra. In its most basic terms, a hair-thin, cylindrical rod of some suitable material (the Royal Manticoran Navy used a Hafnium medium) was subjected to the x-ray pulse of a nuclear detonation, causing it to lase in Gamma-rays until the thermal pulse of the detonation’s core expansion reached the rod and destroyed it. The problem had always been that the process was inherently extraordinarily inefficient. Under normal conditions, only a few percent of the billions of megajoules released by a megaton-range nuclear warhead would actually end up in any single x-ray laser beam, mostly because—under normal conditions—a nuclear detonation propagated in a sphere, and each rod represented only a ridiculously tiny portion of the total spherical area of the explosion and so could be subjected to only a tiny percentage of the total pulse of any detonation. Which meant the overwhelming majority of the destructive effect was completely lost.

    Given the toughness of warship armor, even two or three T-centuries ago, that was simply too little to have any appreciable effect, especially since the resultant laser still had to blast its way through not just a warship’s sidewalls, but also its anti-radiation shielding, just to reach the armor in question. So even though the odds of achieving what was effectively a direct hit with a contact nuke were not exactly good, most navies had opted to go with a weapon which could at least hope to inflict some damage if it actually managed to hit the target. Indeed, pre-laser head missiles had been most destructive when they achieved skin-to-skin contact as purely kinetic projectiles. That, unfortunately, had been all but impossible to achieve, even with the best sidewall penetrators, so the proximity-fused nuclear missile had become primarily a sidewall-killer. Its function was less to inflict actual hull damage than to burn out sidewall generators.

    Unfortunately from the missile-firer’s perspective, active missile defenses had improved to such a degree that “not exactly good” odds of scoring a direct hit had turned into “not a chance in hell,” which was the real reason capital ships had gone to such massive energy batteries. Missiles might still be effective against lighter combatants, but they’d been for all intents and purposes completely ineffective against the active and passive defenses of a capital ship, so the only way to fight a battle out had been to close to the sort of eyeball-to-eyeball range at which shipboard energy mounts could get the job done.

    But then, little more than a century ago, things had begun to change when some clever individual had figured out how to create what was in effect a shaped nuclear charge. The possibility had been discussed in several of the galaxy’s naval journals considerably longer than that, but the technology to make it work hadn’t been available. Not until improvements in the gravitic pinch effect used in modern fusion plants had been shoehorned down into something that could be fitted into the nose of a capital missile.

    A ring of gravity generators, arranged in a collar behind the warhead, had been designed. When the weapon fired, the generators spun up a few milliseconds before the warhead actually detonated, which was just long enough for the layered focal points of a gravitic lens to stabilize and reshape the blast from spherical to Gaussian, directing the radiological and thermal effects forward along the warhead’s axis. The result was to capture far more of the blast’s total effect and focus it into the area occupied by the lasing rods. By modern standards, the original laser heads had been fairly anemic, despite their vast improvement over anything which had been possible previously, and capital ship designers had responded by further thickening the already massive armor dreadnoughts and superdreadnoughts carried. But the ancient race between armor and the gun had resumed, and by fifty or sixty T-years ago, the laser head had become a genuine danger to even the most stoutly armored vessel.

    There were other factors involved in the design of a successful laser head, of course. The length and diameter of a lasing rod determined its beam divergence, with obvious implications for the percentage of energy the laser delivered at any given range. Ship-mounted energy weapons, with their powerful grav lenses, could squeeze beam divergence in a way no laser head possibly could. There was simply no way to design those lenses into something as small as a laser head which, despite many refinements in design, remained essentially a simple, expendable rod which would have been easily recognizable by any pre-Diaspora physicist.

    In the current Mark 23 warhead, the laser heads (the assemblies containing the actual lasing rods) were roughly five meters in length and forty centimeters in diameter, which carried the thread-thin lasing rods suspended in a gel-like medium. The laser heads also incorporated the wolter mirrors to amplify the beampath, reaction thrusters, lots of fuel, on-board power, telemetry, and sensors. They were carried in bays on either side of the weapons bus, which ejected them once the missile had steadied down on its final attack bearing. Each of the laser heads mounted its own thrust-vectoring reaction control system, which acquired the target on its own sensors, thrust to align itself with the target’s bearing, and quickly maneuvered to a position a hundred and fifty meters ahead of the missile. At which point the gravity lens came up, the warhead detonated, and the target found itself out of luck.

    The critical factors were laser head rod dimensions, the yield of the detonation, and—in many ways the most critical of all—the grav lens amplification available. Which was the main reason capital missiles were so much more destructive than the smaller missiles carried aboard cruisers and destroyers. There was still a minimum mass/volume constraint on the grav lens assembly itself, and a bigger missile could simply carry both a more powerful lens and the longer—and therefore more powerful—lasing rods which gave it a longer effective standoff range from its target. That was also the reason it had been such a challenge to squeeze a laser head capable of dealing even with LACs into the new Viper anti-LAC missile. The bay for the single lasing rod was almost two thirds the length of the entire missile body, and finding a place where it could be crammed in had presented all sorts of problems.

    The general Manticoran technical advantage over the Republic of Haven had made itself felt in laser head design, as well. Manticoran missile gravity generators had always been more powerful on a volume-for-volume basis, and Manticoran sensors and targeting systems had been better, as well. The Star Kingdom had been able to rely upon smaller warheads and greater lens amplification to create laser heads powerful enough for its purposes, especially since it could count on scoring more hits because of its superior fire control and seeking systems. The Republic had been forced to adopt a more brute force approach, using substantially larger warheads and heavier lasing rods, which was one of the factors that explained why Havenite missiles had always been outsized compared to their Manticoran counterparts.

    Also ignore the katanas and the vipers and the mark 31 they aren’t in this either.

  9. Kytheros August 17, 2015 at 2:04 am -      #9

    @ Ordo11 Honor’s not in charge, true. It’s White Haven (8th) and Tourville (2nd).
    As far as defense/offense goes, Honorverse missiles at the stated points come in a few categories, LAC missiles, and MDMs.
    The standard capital shipkiller missile (as of ~5-6+ years prior to 8th Fleet, or ~16 years prior to 2nd Fleet) is an impeller-driven missile carrying a ~40 megaton directed fusion-pumped laser head, with a varying number of lasing rods, depending on who made the missile. Both 8th and 2nd Fleet will have significantly heavier warheads in their MDMs, though 2nd’s will be heavier still. Standoff range (against a maneuvering superdreadnought-grade sidewall) is ~20-30,000 kilometers, again, depending on who made the missile, standoff range goes up against weaker defenses or when no sidewall or wedge is in the way.
    A superdreadnought will require quite literally hundreds of successful hits before it goes down.
    Each superdreadnought will carry thousands of missiles.
    Also, since neither the Covenant nor the UNSC have something like a sidewall or wedge (extremely focused ‘bands’ of gravity) – the way they are described as working is kinda wonky – the missiles could get used in the same way they were used before the invention of the sidewall – ramming the missile wedges through the enemy ship, resulting in the absolute destruction of whatever the wedge impacts. Or, y’know, 120ton? guided kinetic impactors rolling along at up to .9c. Might be heavier, or lighter, depending on the grade of missile employed.
    Frankly, 8th and 2nd fleets can take the same approach White Haven used to kick off Operation Buttercup – take it slow, let the enemy gather all his forces, and then just shit missiles at him from 15 million kilometers. Although, since both 8th and 2nd fleet have MDMs, their practical range is limited by their firing control. From rest, 8th Fleet’s MDMs at half drive power have a continuously powered envelope of well over three and a half light minutes and a terminal velocity of 0.83c. Max drive shots have a continuously powered range of 51 light seconds. From rest – the starting velocity of the launcher gets added on – and the Honorverse Impeller Drive ignores relativistic effects on velocity/acceleration.
    Not sure about the numbers of what 2nd Fleet has offhand, but they’ll be roughly equivalent in terms of capability, though they’ll have a heavier warhead.
    8th fleet numbers 73 superdreadnoughts, and 11 dreadnoughts in it’s main wall of battle, plus the associated escort craft (unspecified number of battlecruisers, heavy cruisers, light cruisers, and destroyers, at least an equal number of each category to the number of SDs and DNs, per normal doctrine, probably at least double that in destroyers), and then 17 CLACs plus 4 dreadnoughts and their escorts. The 17 CLACs carry a total of 1836 LACs, of which 1632 are normally deployed.
    8th Fleet as of the start of Buttercup has, or was slated to have, 31 SD(P)s, all Harrington/Medusas – they’re the same thing, it’s just that the RMN renamed the Harrington-class the Medusa after Honor came back from being officially dead (according the the Peeps) while the GSN didn’t. In 12 minutes, the SD(P)s alone can put out a total of sixty six-pod salvos, resulting in a total of over one hundred eleven thousand MDMs headed downrange.
    Plus, there’s the other forty-odd conventional superdreadnoughts and eleven dreadnoughts of the wall. And the screening elements.
    And so that nobody suffers the misconception that superdreadnoughts are only good at missile combat, within 400,000 kilometers, the only in-universe defense against a superdreadnought’s graser (much less an entire broadside of 30+) is the impenetrable wedge, as at that range, no sidewall, even that of another superdreadnought, however powerful, can hope to stop one.
    Superdreadnoughts and Dreadnoughts have been primarily energy combatants prior to Manticoran missile combat developments deployed in the First Haven War.
    They also carry energy torpedoes, which basically fire unguided plasma bursts at .9c (I think) with a very high (though unspecified) rate of fire. Quickly enough that an old and obsolete light cruiser refitted with extra energy torps as a testbed for an experimental weapon system could completely kill a superdreadnought before the superdreadnought (or it’s consorts) could react. Of course, energy torps are useless against even the weakest sidewall at any range.
    Energy torps being useless against sidewalls suggests to me that Covenant plasma torpedoes will also be useless against sidewalls.
    Basically, anything within energy range of a hostile SD or DN is probably about to become a cloud of diffusing gasses.
    As far as I know, UNSC and Covenant combat ranges top out around a light second, maybe a bit further for the really-long range stuff, but are usually closer than that.
    The UNSC and Covenant are, to the best of my knowledge, radically outranged. And effective range is a fairly huge deal when it comes to space combat.

  10. lethal_gecko August 17, 2015 at 7:56 am -      #10

    So how will this fleet deal with the Long Night of Solace? A super carrier 28km long. From what I remember anything short of the UNSC’s best weapons are incapable of damaging a super carrier, it’s probably why they decided to rip half of it into another dimension


    The Long Night of Solace can easily one hit UNSC ships (frigates) using energy projectors but I’ve seen those weapons one hit ships over a kilometer long through their shields, also I believe the super carrier has 7 of these and they’re designed to vitrify (reduce to glass) a planet’s surface. There’s also all the other weapons and the hundreds of thousands of troops on board which I’m sure a lot of will be capable of boarding actions against other ships. Dropping Hunter strike teams into a ship would be a serious threat to even Space Marines.

  11. Jehrnkierthe August 17, 2015 at 8:36 am -      #11

    The Honorverse ships’ biggest problem will be that their primary sensors don’t work on opponents without impeller drives, so their ships and missiles will have to rely on light-speed sensors and have significantly reduced detection range and speed.

    However, given that they can fire hundreds of thousands of impeller-drive missiles at 16 million kilometers, it doesn’t really matter. Their opponents have no impeller wedges, so all the missiles have to do is turn sideways before they hit, and they become both invulnerable to head-on anti-missile defenses, and a one-hit-kill weapon as the wedge obliterates everything within a hundred meters or so of the missile’s path.

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