Godzilla Vs Kain

Godzilla Vs Kain

Suggested by Jake_Uzumaki

Godzilla will go up against Kain.

Composite Godzilla from the Godzilla franchise vs Kain’s current incarnation from the Legacy of Kain Franchise. Battle takes place on an island in an evacuated Tokyo.

Who will win?

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553 Comments on "Godzilla Vs Kain"

  1. CH1C4N0444 is allergic to bullets August 16, 2015 at 9:46 pm -      #401

    Weird, I’ve always considered all metals heavy.

    youtu.be/R890wISHwG4

    Well, most anyways.

  2. Mea quidem sententia August 16, 2015 at 10:04 pm -      #402

    Not all metals are heavy, but there’s plenty that are.

  3. Sauroposeidon August 16, 2015 at 10:28 pm -      #403

    “Right this meteor however is pulverizing itself, first Kains sword clearly does not break or pulverize but further the ground hes destroying is being destroyed, maybe even mulched, disintegrated or liquidized but it is all as we have covered concentrated in this tiny area.

    The meteor in your example is potentially on a massive scale if were talking big meteors.”

    ….

    I still can’t tell if you’re just a child, or if you’re stupid.

  4. Aelfinn August 16, 2015 at 11:44 pm -      #404

    “Your using game mechanics, e.g. how much damage the player has to do to reduce the health of the actors to death? Its the same in basically every action game, you will see similar tihngs in Bayonetta, God of War, DMC,DmC etc.”

    The exact amount of hits and damage are game mechanics, yes, but there’s an inherent implication in the gameplay that Kain isn’t casually waltzing through all these enemies. I mean, if he’s casually shown slicing people in half and the like in cutscenes, QTE’s, or other forms of media, I’d be more inclined to agree, but from what I’ve seen that isn’t really happening.
    =
    “Or they just interrupt him as we see. We have no way to gauge his pain or damage. We know bows from humans could not hurt him physically because blows from Raziel which are far more powerful, as confirmed even by Mea in the quadruple/quintiple million newton range across claws do nothing to him but tickle his funny bone.”

    Even if they just interrupt him, that means the Kinetic Energy from them is still enough to stagger him, which throws doubts onto his durability/hardness/strength/whatever. Also, slowly pushing a block is not the same as punching.
    =
    “So around 1x times less than what Kain can output by focusing his force through the tip of his sword. Being disingenuous to the swords area. Good to know.”

    As said above, Godzilla can be 9.5 times heavier. and I really don’t think Kain is exerting the millions of newtons when he swings his sword.
    =
    “The thing you spoke about? go back and look at what Hercules is standing on, sand. So we know, whatever the force was he output, should be less than the force required to break sand beneath the pressure of both his feet.”

    Or, as is more likely, the creators simply forgot about environmental damage. Out of all side-effects, environmental-damage has to be the most commonly ignored one in fiction.
    =
    =
    =
    “You fuckers have been going on about this shit for more than a month now.. what the fuck is wrong with you ?!?”

    Look, it’s been a while since we’ve had a good Fanboy Hunt.

  5. CH1C4N0444 is allergic to bullets August 16, 2015 at 11:50 pm -      #405

    @Aelfinn So, that’s a no on Hercules planetary strength struggling to lift Big G adding to your calc?

  6. Aelfinn August 17, 2015 at 12:01 am -      #406

    ” So, that’s a no on Hercules planetary strength struggling to lift Big G adding to your calc?”

    Whoops, forgot to respond to that. I mean, that could be an example of PIS, but if the fact that he can move planets WERE to be applied to that calc, it would shoot it up astronomically high. Like, pants-shittingly high.

  7. Friendlysociopath August 17, 2015 at 12:12 am -      #407

    if he’s casually shown slicing people in half and the like in cutscenes

    He does do something like that in the comics.

    www.gamer.ru/system/attached_images/images/000/013/262/original/page4.jpg
    img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110617005745/legacyofkain/images/thumb/b/b1/Defiance4GameStop.jpg/500px-Defiance4GameStop.jpg
    Still, with the amount of force Kitten says he imparts- the idea that he “only” cuts through them implies he’d holding back literally all of the time he’s in combat.

    the creators simply forgot about environmental damage.

    Applies to Kain as well since Raziel and Kain throwing those multiple “tons of force” around do literally nothing to the environment.

    The exact amount of hits and damage are game mechanics

    Not really, they address it in canon statements Kain and other vampires make. They refer to the health bar in canon so we can take something from it.
    Being hurt causes them to lose blood- blood is what makes them live.
    Blood is Kain’s healthbar- so when Kain is injured he loses blood.
    Since that is the case, when Kain is hit he is injured.
    legacyofkain.wikia.com/wiki/Blood#References

    It should also be noted that literally every other vampire in LoK can be harmed by base humans and their weapons; Raziel, Dumah, Janos- the works. The *only one* Kitten gets to play around this is Kain because, “He’s never hit in canon.”
    Meanwhile:
    Dumah was stabbed to death by humans with spears.
    Raziel admits humans wound him whenever they hit him and that the Reaver let him regen it instantly (Kain does not get this power).
    And Nosgoth is a canon view of the war between vampires and humans.

    I still can’t tell if you’re just a child, or if you’re stupid.

    I hope it’s the former, the idea of the latter running around gives me chills when thinking of the future.

  8. CH1C4N0444 is allergic to bullets August 17, 2015 at 12:18 am -      #408

    “if the fact that he can move planets WERE to be applied to that calc, it would shoot it up astronomically high. Like, pants-shittingly high.”

    Alright, I was just wondering. Thanks for answering!

  9. Aelfinn August 17, 2015 at 12:34 am -      #409

    “He does do something like that in the comics.”

    Hmmm, fair enough, but I do see mostly fleshy parts being hit (with some armor, of course, but on the edge and not so much head-on). They aren’t being totally obliterated as implied by Kitten. It takes about 3000-5000 newtons to break a bone, so it doesn’t really seem like they’re taking millions of newtons of damage.
    =
    “Not really, they address it in canon statements “

    I mean the amount of times he has to hit an enemy.
    =
    This is what I feel like, a little bit:
    imgur.com/a/CBRUP
    =
    EDIT
    “Alright, I was just wondering. Thanks for answering!”

    Nooooo problem

  10. Sauroposeidon August 17, 2015 at 12:41 am -      #410

    “Look, it’s been a while since we’ve had a good Fanboy Hunt.”

    I didn’t think you had it in you.

    Also, gonna be honest. If there’s ever like a BankGambling con, meet up, whatever.. I will be disappointed if you don’t at least vaguely resemble your gravatar.

  11. Aelfinn August 17, 2015 at 1:04 am -      #411

    “I didn’t think you had it in you.”

    There’s a certain amount of…release…when debating with a fanboy who’s clearly wrong. Debates can often get muddled and dragged down by specifics, but it’s nice to say “that’s blatantly ridiculous”.
    =
    “Also, gonna be honest. If there’s ever like a BankGambling con, meet up, whatever.. I will be disappointed if you don’t at least vaguely resemble your gravatar.”

    I’m not bald, I don’t have pointy ears, and I’m pretty sure my eyes aren’t beady…so you might be out of luck. But hey, I’ll be disappointed when you don’t turn out to be a giant dinosaur.

    You know…I’ve always thought the idea of a BankGambling meet-up might be fun…

  12. pimpmage August 17, 2015 at 1:53 am -      #412

    “You know…I’ve always thought the idea of a BankGambling meet-up might be fun…”

    A skype debate would be hilarious. Though we would have to account for so many different timezones.

  13. CH1C4N0444 is allergic to bullets August 17, 2015 at 2:11 am -      #413

    We did have that SW:TOR story session together.

  14. Kitten Lord August 17, 2015 at 5:04 am -      #414

    @Klond

    “In essence we can not assume that Raziel was doing what he could do at full potential. ”

    This is not his “full potential”, just him actually using “some” effort as opposed to none. Which is done by proxy of him you know, struggling.

    @Mea

    “Raziel would be able to push them all with the same amount of force and distance.”

    I do not know Mea, I only know that the developers themselves put a stack of 4 blocks there for him to move. And you cannot get through the game without dealing with this thing, so clearly, Raziel moves 4 blocks whether you do not like programming or w/e your argument is. Honestly I do not get this part of your argument.

    “I cannot contest that Raziel pushed cubes, but I can contest that the amount he pushed stacked on each other.”


    You cannot because this example you brought up with Link is player choice, I repeat the developers put 4 blocks there, that is static, nothing to do with the players.

    ” Raziel is around 6′ tall, according to Daniel”

    I pixel scaled myself with Kain as 7ft tall and Raziel is about 6ft 4, about the same as you came up with if I recall anyway so it does not matter.

    ” The cube is 222 pixels tall.”

    What image are you using for this? I want to scale it myself.

    “Pixel scaling is more accurate than eyeing it because it’s taking the amount of pixels of each object”

    As I covered with you before an image, especially a changing image is going to have different pixels based on angle. A cube from far away in an image is going to have less pixels than a cube that basically fills the image. Meanwhile, eyeballing it can at least give you a measure to go from.

    For example Raziels head barely comes above the middle of the block, the block has those bits on either side from the middle that are a different colour. You can clearly see his head is only just above those.

    @Aelfinn

    “or other forms of media, I’d be more inclined to agree, but from what I’ve seen that isn’t really happening.”

    Then you missed the comic that was posted many times. Your saying just because you cannot cut people to piecies in the game engine or w/e Kain cannot in canon? No wonder i am argueing often basic logic on here sometimes….

    “Even if they just interrupt him, that means the Kinetic Energy from them is still enough to stagger him”

    Well no shit, he is still human in size and mass.

    ” Also, slowly pushing a block is not the same as punching.”

    And effortlessly doing so is not the same as using your full strength.

    “Or, as is more likely, the creators simply forgot about environmental damage. ”

    Did you look at all the scans of the comic? there is plenty of damage. I like how you try and argue what the developers may have forgotten about for that scene, but then this logic goes out the window when you are arguing Kain must have trouble with humans because in-game graphics and mechanics say otherwise…..

    Honestly if people argued with the same logic for Kain and his feats as they do for everything else we would no longer be arguing, we would be agreeing. Maybe Admin should officially make the rule that Kain is a special case who should require the most deep science to even get a single feat for without ignoring anything like other fictions get.

    “but it’s nice to say “that’s blatantly ridiculous”.”

    I am glad your re-reading your posts before posting them. Just try and re-think the logic for some of them though before you push the button.

    @Friendly

    “Applies to Kain as well since Raziel and Kain throwing those multiple “tons of force” around do literally nothing to the environment.”

    LoK is a lot better in that regard. The force they throw is usually exerted or focused and the force itself is not that much. Even 50 MN is only so much when focused.

    ” They refer to the health bar in canon so we can take something from it.”

    Oh dear, the reaching again. They do not refer to the health bar, they say Kain needs to drink blood. The user interface/health bar just happens to represent how much blood the player has, how much Kain has is unknown from this.

    “The *only one* Kitten gets to play around this is Kain because, “He’s never hit in canon.””

    He is hit, just not by a human. He is hit with anywhere between terapascals and pettapascals of pressure.

    “Dumah was stabbed to death by humans with spears.”

    Prove it.

    “Raziel admits humans wound him whenever they hit him”

    Humans swinging swords……never said Raziel was exceptionally durable but the fact he can heal from being hit by swords at all is fairly impressive.

  15. Kitten Lord August 17, 2015 at 5:39 am -      #415

    Conclusion so far

    Using meas previous number;

    4409006.4 newtons is his effortless pushing power with both arms.

    559943812.8 newtons is his effort pushing power. About 560 MN

    Struggling against Kain;

    Yep you guessed it, Kain may as well be on a summer stroll with all the effort we see here with one arm, that is like having 6k tons on your arm.

    So let us find Kains strength if he applied himself with one arm

    71119990127.655, Newtons, or 71 Giga-newtons. Or 8 million t ons.

    So Kain with one arm should be able to quite easily throw Godzilla like I would a paper plate. Probably bury himself in the sand in the process haha!

    static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Hercules_Thumbs_Up.jpg

    I know that two arms would not make it double but if he put not only his other arm but his whole body into forcing his sword into Godzilla. Lets double the newtons for one arm for a lowball of this force;

    So 142.2 Giganewtons, divided over the area of a sword tip, say 0.1 mm^2 as an estimate. This gives us Kains pressure output at up to 1.4223998 exapascals. Nice!

    For comparison that is the net pressure of the core of our sun, if it was 40x more potent and funneled into the tip of a blade.

    So when Kain goes to work on Godzilla its going to be…well, confetti..

    Course, the 4-5 million newtons pushing force is paled into comparison by;


    “F = (200 x pi x 136.74^2)/0.204 = 57 mega-newtons”

    His striking force with one arm. So the numbers above are a lowball stacked on a lowball unfortunately. Scaled from a lowball since Raziel even at base, hell even your average low tier BO era vampire was superhuman and were scaling off a human…oh the horror!

    50 MN sort of adds up since he goes through iron, brass, potentially steel like swiss cheese and flips a massive obelisk like nothing yet pushing with 4 million newtons on a brass block does not pierce it when pushing it about, his hands do not even move within the metal.

    So it all adds up that 10x that force, e.g. 50 MN not 5 MN can clear through it in a blow with a hand.

    So yeah, we are back to square one. A dumb lizard trying to stomp around someone who is turning ethereal/intangible every time, before floating/teleporting up to the lizards body and then stabbing it with ease. Vacuuming up all the souls!

    orig05.deviantart.net/6e33/f/2010/124/2/f/raziel_eating_soul_again__by_raziel45.jpg

    So out of 100 battles Kain may mind control Godzilla and make him kill him. Soul rape godzilla. Freeze Godzilla in time and then cut him into confetti…time does not pass so no healing factor for you…

    Reaver may slow or stop healing factors maybe briefly anyway. Then there is the fact he could just you know, drink his blood and gain his power.

    So Kain+Godzillas power…the lore, the radiation breath. Hard to imagine Kain puking and emitting radiation but ok…

  16. Numinous One August 17, 2015 at 6:54 am -      #416

    “559943812.8 newtons is his effort pushing power. About 560 MN”

    This was derived from your 127x multiplier, yes?
    Which is a subjective high end as opposed to a low end, as was mentioned several times earlier.

    Also, to reiterate what others have said.
    Calc stacking has never, and will never, be an acceptable method of aquiring results, especially not when the numbers are derived from an opinionated stance that differs for literally everone .

    Use 1.5x multiplier for a low end. 127x is a ludicrous high end.

  17. Sauroposeidon August 17, 2015 at 8:53 am -      #417

    “, I’ll be disappointed when you don’t turn out to be a giant dinosaur.”

    I’m a big guy, and I’m apparently older than a number of debaters here so.. I’m KIND of a dinosaur.

  18. Kitten Lord August 17, 2015 at 9:54 am -      #418

    @Numin

    “Which is a subjective high end as opposed to a low end”

    No it is a low end. It relies on people being able to move 30 kg effortlessly. Which was not even the case with the peak human athlete the boxer I used to scale from. And even then, is from a peak human, when Raziel is a superhuman.

    “. 127x is a ludicrous high end.”

    You say that, yet Raziel can move 1 block the same he can move 4 of the same block. So he has an at least 400% shown multiplier on his force output capacity anyway and that was still effortless. So clearly 1.5x is redundant. It would be at least 4x and we would still have an effortless calc, when I am trying to find what he would output with a lot of his might.

    Considering the tons of lowballs I am working with, 127x is by no means unreasonable.

  19. Friendlysociopath August 17, 2015 at 12:12 pm -      #419

    Prove it.

    Prove that vampire hunters came and killed Dumah and wiped out his clan? Elder God said so- done.

    Humans swinging swords……never said Raziel was exceptionally durable but the fact he can heal from being hit by swords at all is fairly impressive.

    He doesn’t actually, he only heals it off when he has The Reaver or he eats souls- otherwise he stays hurt.

    He is hit with anywhere between terapascals and pettapascals of pressure.

    You can keep saying this all you want, it’s not doing anything besides being annoying; Kain is not being given that level of durability on this site.

    Oh dear, the reaching again.

    Downplay and evade all you want Kitten, Kain is hurt by base humans just like every other vampire. If you want to argue regen go for it- but vampires are not superhumanly durable if regular humans can harm them.

  20. pimpmage August 17, 2015 at 12:21 pm -      #420

    But the astute has superior range! A man even said so! IE the astute solos every universe in fiction with its superior range! Superman cannot be everywhere at once, the astute can simultaneously blow up every sun in the marvel multiverse with torpedoes. Meaning that superman cannot beat the astute or even find it while it’s submerged! Downplay harder!!

  21. Kitten Lord August 17, 2015 at 12:28 pm -      #421

    @Friendly

    “Prove that vampire hunters came and killed Dumah and wiped out his clan? ”


    That is not all you said. You claimed Dumah was stabbed to death by spears.

    “He doesn’t actually, he only heals it off when he has The Reaver”

    That is what I was talking about. It is the only time we know he got hit by a weapon, and he was injured but its not like he lost an arm or a leg or w/e.

    “Kain is not being give”

    Nobody has to give anything on this site. It has no hold over the canon of the games.

    “Kain is hurt by base humans just like every other vampire.”

    Never happened in canon. And we know that based on what has happened in canon, this is more or less impossible.

    “vampires are not superhumanly durable if regular humans can harm them.”

    Not sure about “all” vampires. But one of them at least is. Also SR era vampires are pretty durable in general honestly….they can still hold up to Raziel pounding on them.

    @Pimp

    www.gifbin.com/bin/389198g6g60.gif


    Wow what a comedian! So funny!

  22. pimpmage August 17, 2015 at 12:34 pm -      #422

    A single astute lol solos kain so hard. The astute has no mind or soul, Therefor cannot be soul raped or mind raped. Kain does not have sonar, so it cannot hope to ever find it. Also, with its superior range, it can simultaneously fire one bajillion nukular missiles from one kajillion different locations on the earth. Also, I interpret a submarine as being able to dive through rock, so good luck finding it floating within the earths core while being blowed up by nukes! Kain strength cannot bend steel beams!

  23. Klondike Bar August 17, 2015 at 12:46 pm -      #423

    “This is not his “full potential”, just him actually using “some” effort as opposed to none. Which is done by proxy of him you know, struggling.”

    So wait you are saying that the weightlifter to achieve the 127 multiplier was only applying a little effort? What I am saying is that you cannot claim 127 times or anything near 127 times unless you can prove he was in the most desirable position, both mentally and physically, to output this force.

    So yes he will output more force than normal while struggling but how much more? 1.0000001x 8x 100x? We do not know. So any calculation we make based off of this assumption is flawed. Because the more assumptions you make and the bigger assumptions you make the more room for error you have.

    I am not trying to be irritating but you cannot dismiss my example of rock pulling by saying I assume to much if you have at least two assumptions.

    For example I can according to your definition strain myself but show no outside effort. That is a third assumption.

    You have three assumptions and you are choosing the thing that would give you the highest figure. I think that you need proof of Kain not using any effort aside from appearance because you said that appearance does not matter.

  24. Mea quidem sententia August 17, 2015 at 12:52 pm -      #424

    @Kitten Lord
    It doesn’t mean the developers put those four cubes there for Raziel to push them all, as it’s clear that the player pushes a brass cube off another brass cube. As I said already, I don’t contest that Raziel pushed cubes, only that he pushed four cubes at the same time. My argument remains the same. If the developers put one hundred cubes stacked on each other, Raziel would push them all as the same as if it were a single cube.

    If it’s a player’s choice, then that means you cannot assume all four cubes were pushed together. Your point would be as valid as mine, but again, even if there were one hundred cubes stacked on each other, Raziel would push them all the same as if they were a single cube. The game is programmed to be that way.

    It does now, since Daniel is giving us the proper numbers. Kain is 7′ tall, Raziel is 5’11”, since “about 6′ feet” is not the same as, “exactly 6′ feet”.

    I’m using the part where Raziel is first seen stabbing into that iron cube where the Elder God tells him of his new, physical strength. Here’s an image, although I’ve gotten a slight variation this time. I ended up with 188 pixels instead of 175 pixels and the cube having a height of 250 pixels instead of 222 pixels.

    i76.photobucket.com/albums/j32/mea_quidem_sententia/raziel%20cube_zpsilhdr910.png

    That means 250 / 188 gives us 134%. Raziel’s height is 180.34 cm., meaning that the volume would be 13,791,854.74^3. That’s 108,597,064.19 grams, or 108.597 metric tons. That’s 54.299 metric tons per hand.

    Perhaps at an angle, which is why I wanted one like the one I linked. However, even at an angle, the pixels shouldn’t change, unless the characters and objects around them are constantly growing and shrinking. A cube far away means Raziel should also be at the same distance. I agree that Raziel is above the cube.

  25. Mea quidem sententia August 17, 2015 at 12:58 pm -      #425

    And exapascals? Seriously? Jesus, this is so ridiculous, it’s funny. And yet, not a single enemy is splattered by the amount of force. Ever.

  26. Amm0vamp1r3 August 17, 2015 at 1:04 pm -      #426

    how powerful is an exapascal?

  27. Friendlysociopath August 17, 2015 at 1:11 pm -      #427

    That is not all you said. You claimed Dumah was stabbed to death by spears.

    He was- what point of this is confusing for you?
    vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/legacyofkain/images/7/7e/SR1-Boss-Dumah-007.PNG/revision/latest?cb=20121122190421
    For someone who played the games you seem awfully hit-and-miss with your canon.

    Nobody has to give anything on this site. It has no hold over the canon of the games.

    Actually we do- you see- we interpret that “canon”.
    Just as DragonBall is not recognized as FTL on this site.
    Neither is Kain recognized to have the durability and strength you say he does.
    Because for some reason or another, the site as a consensus finds that there is not enough proof to say that is the case.

    they can still hold up to Raziel pounding on them.

    More proof Raziel is not as strong as you seem to think he is; we’ve well established, in newer canon nonetheless, that vampires can be slain by normal humans and their weapons.
    So we know they’re not durable enough to take those “tons of force” blows that you think Raziel is capable of.
    Kain reinforces that in the comics as well, sure he’s cutting down the knights- but nowhere near the level you say he should be.

  28. Kitten Lord August 17, 2015 at 1:14 pm -      #428

    @Klond

    ” We do not know.”

    At least in the 100x range.

    “if you have at least two assumptions.”

    What are my two assumptions?

    “For example I can according to your definition strain myself but show no outside effort.”

    Outside or not your still producing effort.

    “I think that you need proof of Kain not using any effort aside from appearance because you said that appearance does not matter.”

    It is not just appearance, it is the fact he can also talk as if he is not under any strain. Also appearance does matter. When did i say it did not matter at all?

    If someone looks like their having a hard time of it then you can argue they are struggling or w/e, but if your refering to the game, the game tells us what is happening and the game and the devs who write the lines are beyond our conjecture.

    @Mea

    “It doesn’t mean the developers put those four cubes there for Raziel to push them all,”

    It does because that is all you can do to them.

    ” If the developers put one hundred cubes stacked on each other, Raziel would push them all as the same as if it were a single cube.”

    “sigh”, then I would be calculating 100 cubes. The reality is, it is 4. If the developers put them there like that I am not going to ignore them.

    “ere’s an image, although I’ve gotten a slight variation this time. I ended up with 188 pixels instead of 175 pixels and the cube having a height of 250 pixels instead of 222 pixels.”

    Oh I see. I thought we were scaling from the brass cube

    “And yet, not a single enemy is splattered by the amount of force. Ever.”

    No their just cut through.


    @Friendly

    “He was”

    I see spears in him. I do not see the evidence he was stabbed to death by them.

    “So we know they’re not durable enough to take those “tons of force” blows that you think Raziel is capable of.”


    Only the vampires in the “newer” canon (Nosgoth) are not exactly the same as the ones Raziel fights.

    “Kain reinforces that in the comics as well, sure he’s cutting down the knights- but nowhere near the level you say he should be.”

    That makes no sense, what do you mean hes cutting down the knights but nowhere near the level? he is not damaged or hit, and cuts through them with ease. Their nothing to him.

  29. Mea quidem sententia August 17, 2015 at 1:51 pm -      #429

    @Amm0vamp1r3
    Exa- is equal to 1.0 * 10^18, or 1,000,000,000,000,000,000. That’s how many pascals Kitten Lord is claiming is exerted from the tip of Kain’s sword. It would be pressure higher than what’s found in the core of the Sun. Clearly, my bullshit-o-meter is off the charts with this one.

    @Kitten Lord
    You would if there were 100 cubes stacked on each other, but that’s not happening. I bet if someone went into the game and programmed it that way, it could be done. Find another feat where Raziel does this, one that does not involve the cubes.

  30. Klondike Bar August 17, 2015 at 1:52 pm -      #430

    You are assuming that Raziel has his full physical strength ready to use against Kain. You are also assuming that Raziel is in no way mentally unprepared. You are claiming that either Raziel was not panicking or that Raziel is in no way affected by his own panic. You are claiming that because it looks like Kain is not straining it must be easy.

    Where does it say that moving anything other than the stone blocks is effortless? I make the same motions moving a chair that I make moving a Love seat. The chair is effortless but the Love seat is not. From all outside sources people said that they can not see any outside difference but I can personally tell.

    Those are your three assumptions. Also when you are talking about those blocks. I am pretty sure that those would not be stacked up like that in canon. Because if Raziel pushed them over then they would not stay in a perfect stack and would not be undamaged.

    Legitimate question. Is there some reason why the four blocks on top of each other is canon and the health bar or Humans being able to damage Kain is not?

  31. Amm0vamp1r3 August 17, 2015 at 2:01 pm -      #431

    @Mea

    Woooooow, absurd lol, ab….surd

  32. Ragnorke August 17, 2015 at 2:03 pm -      #432

    @Everyone
    Numinous Ones statement pretty much sums up my thoughts:
    “to reiterate what others have said.
    Calc stacking has never, and will never, be an acceptable method of aquiring results, especially not when the numbers are derived from an opinionated stance that differs for literally everone.”

    I haven’t been keeping up with the thread, and likely won’t be again any time soon, Numinous’ comment just stood out…
    And i’m certain the arguments haven’t gone anywhere aside from another circle or two, so my following statements will still be as relevant as ever.

    Even IF we all agree on your opinionated multiplier regarding the difference between Effortless & Stress (which no one here has).
    Even IF we all accept the Calc Stacking which you performed (which is frowned upon in every debating thread i’v been on).
    Even IF we compare both feats as if they are the exact same circumstance (which they are not)….

    Power-Scaling is a method of debate which STILL need not be accepted on threads.
    Specifically when the Power Scaling calc results in a MASSIVE outlier.

    Has Kain ever performed an environmental feat even remotely close to the result of your calc? (Lifting Godzilla with a single hand?) No.
    Therefor it is an Outlier.
    Outlier feats are heavily debated as they are, even when environmental. We would always assume the lowest-end possible just to make them seem more consistent and in-line.

    Yet you expect us to accept an Outlier (a huge one at that), which is the resultant of a Power Scale? It’s not going to happen Kitten.
    This is without considering the Calc Stacking, the Arbitrary Variables, and the different physical Circumstance.

    You might truly believe with all your heart that what you did is acceptable… But it simply isn’t as far as BankGambling is concerned.
    I know i don’t get to speak on behalf of everyone, but i’m pretty sure everyone is one board with me… And our minds will only be swayed by Admins say so.

    This has, unfortunately, come down to nothing more than “My opinion is right”, “No, your opinion is wrong, we don’t accept it”.
    Neither of us are strictly “right”, we are simply telling you that your calcs are out of the bounds of what should be acceptable on BankGambling. Sorry.
    If you disagree, you should honestly just contact Admin…. Because opinions like these won’t be changed based on nothing more than someone elses opinions.

  33. Ragnorke August 17, 2015 at 2:07 pm -      #433

    I had a job interview with my dream firm today, and hopefully i’ll get hired.
    If all goes well, i probably won’t get the time to debate again in the near future, as my working shifts are expected to be 10-14 hours a day.
    i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/136/315/677.png

    I’ll be around discussing the latest comics with my fellow comic readers, but debating is simply too time consuming & ultimately pointless.

    I’ll likely send you the diagrams regarding the feat via some other platform Kitten, as i’d rather not get sucked back into this.
    But i do genuinely think you’ll find them both interesting & helpful when i’m done with them.
    Heck, they may even change your opinion.

    Cheers!

  34. Kitten Lord August 17, 2015 at 2:35 pm -      #434

    @Klond

    “You are assuming that Raziel has his full physical strength ready to use against Kain”

    I still do not understand this line of reasoning. “his phyiscal strength ready” what do you mean?

    “. You are claiming that because it looks like Kain is not straining it must be easy.”

    The whole scene shouts casual in regards to Kain. Bear in mind that they retconned the scene from the previous game from Kain actually having difficulty/injured to him being unharmed and just throwing Raziel around and not even trying to put him down.

    “. I am pretty sure that those would not be stacked up like that in canon.”

    Thing is they are stacked up like that. The developers did that, not the player.

    “Legitimate question. Is there some reason why the four blocks on top of each other is canon and the health bar or Humans being able to damage Kain is not?”

    Health bars and humans being able to damage Kain are mechanics. Further, those in-game elements are contradicted by the canon/lore. Its a common element in most hack and slash action games for characters to rack up dozens of combos hitting people that should have died in a single strike canonically. God of war, Devil May cry, Bayonetta being good examples.

    “health” and “damage” in-game are systems designed around the player. Same with resource bars and what not.

    @Rag

    “Therefor it is an Outlier.”

    There cannot be an outlier because there are not enough if any sources that contradict the numbers.

    And their mostly based on Raziel who consistently moves hundreds of these blocks across the period of the game.

    “But i do genuinely think you’ll find them both interesting & helpful when i’m done with them.
    Heck, they may even change your opinion.”

    I look forward to seeing them. Just remember to mark it up for a layman so I know what it all means.

    “I had a job interview with my dream firm today, and hopefully i’ll get hired.”

    Good luck man, honestly. Not everyone even knows what they want to do so good on you for following that dream. You clearly worked hard for it in Uni and hopefully it will pay off! All the best!

  35. Soulerous August 17, 2015 at 3:22 pm -      #435

    Exa- is equal to 1.0 * 10^18, or 1,000,000,000,000,000,000. That’s how many pascals Kitten Lord is claiming is exerted from the tip of Kain’s sword. It would be pressure higher than what’s found in the core of the Sun.
    ~
    Wonderful. And when was it shown that the Reaver itself can withstand that amount of force?
    ~
    @Ragnorke- May fortune be with you.

  36. Nsl98 August 17, 2015 at 3:35 pm -      #436

    Good luck Rag!

    This thread is entertaining to read…

  37. Friendlysociopath August 17, 2015 at 4:09 pm -      #437

    Just leaving all the rest of this alone:
    I see spears in him. I do not see the evidence he was stabbed to death by them.

    Words have genuinely failed me at this moment.

  38. Aelfinn August 17, 2015 at 4:21 pm -      #438

    “Your saying just because you cannot cut people to piecies in the game engine or w/e Kain cannot in canon? No wonder i am argueing often basic logic on here sometimes….”

    This is rich, coming from you. No, what I’m saying is that just because something happens in-game doesn’t automatically throw it off as game-mechanics. The game developers COULD show the enemies being smacked into a bright red mist, but they don’t. What they show is that each hit smacks the people around and leaves some blood behind. That tells us something about what the developers thought of the universe.
    =
    “Well no shit, he is still human in size and mass.”

    If he could apply a million Newtons, it shouldn’t stagger him at all, or at least a negligible amount.
    =
    “And effortlessly doing so is not the same as using your full strength.”

    Fantastic. That doesn’t mean that I’m going to push a car the same way I throw a punch.
    =
    “Did you look at all the scans of the comic? there is plenty of damage. I like how you try and argue what the developers may have forgotten about for that scene, but then this logic goes out the window when you are arguing Kain must have trouble with humans because in-game graphics and mechanics say otherwise”

    Forgetting “equal and opposite reaction” when dealing with super-strong characters is par for the course. How objects interact in-game can often give us insights into the developer’s thoughts. You’re comparing apples and oranges here.
    =
    =
    =
    “This gives us Kains pressure output at up to 1.4223998 exapascals. Nice!”

    BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

  39. Aelfinn August 17, 2015 at 5:01 pm -      #439

    Alright, I’ll double-post, as I suppose there’s more I wanted to say.
    =
    ” Its a common element in most hack and slash action games for characters to rack up dozens of combos hitting people that should have died in a single strike canonically. God of war, Devil May cry, Bayonetta being good examples.”

    The thing about these three games and others like them is that they also have plenty of cutscenes and QTE’s establishing the true speed and strength of these characters. They toughen the enemies up for balance reasons. For example, while making Metal Gear Rising, Kojima ran into problems because he wanted Raiden to be able to slice anything in half in pretty much one slice. That’s what he’s canonically able to do, and Kojima wanted his games to reflect that ability. However, that means the entire game is incredibly broken and unbalanced. So when Platinum games got their hands on it, they pretty much went “Fuck That”, and gave the enemies the ability to survive multiple hits.

    HOWEVER, we know that Raiden can cut enemies in half, Metal Gears in half, throw them, and even swing giant metal gear swords because we see all of this happen in cinematics or QTE’s. None of that happens with Kain, leaving us with his gameplay and limited comics to draw information from. Gameplay shows human weapons as a threat to Kain. Comics show him puncturing humans with his claws, and exerting, at a rough guess, a few tens of thousands of Newtons. They simply do not match up with these assertions of incredible strength.
    =
    “I see spears in him. I do not see the evidence he was stabbed to death by them.”

    Barring this ridiculous statement, it doesn’t really matter if he “died”, does it? It shows a Vampire of similar level to Kain (even claiming to have surpassed him) having been stabbed through by human spears. He also gets killed by an explosion that’s not really all that scary, in the grand scheme of things.

  40. Klondike Bar August 17, 2015 at 5:34 pm -      #440

    My full physical strenght means that he has the proper leverage, grounding force, stance. The problem with the weightlifter is that he is placed in an environment where he is mentally prepared, is not tired, and is basically at optimal efficiency. And he can not lift it consistently like would be necessary for a punch.

    My main problem with it is that Raziel has never lifted anything completely off of the ground. We are comparing lifting witch uses different muscle groups to compare with pushing. I have already shown that when pushing and pulling the gap between stress and non-stress is far smaller.

    Also I think a better example for the game mechanic thing is that you claim that Raziel uses no more effort to move the four brass blocks than he does to move that stone block. You claimed that this was because he pushes it exactly the same way. However when I said that the way that he was moving indicated that it was not effortless you argued that it was game mechanics. This personally seems like selective pickings.

  41. Mea quidem sententia August 17, 2015 at 7:10 pm -      #441

    @Soulerous
    Never. We cannot even attribute Raziel’s calculations to Kain as the two characters are clearly different from each other, so the idea that the two have remotely similar strength feats is unsupported. Below, you can see Kain kick at the door and then says, “Locked. What a love of doors these pathetic humans have.”



    Even if his leg strength wasn’t powerful (which would make no sense, since lifting or pushing comes from the legs), Kain could have easily man-handled this door. Friendlysociopath has also showed me a ruined wall that took three swings with the sword to bring down. Mind you, these are cut-scenes for those who take cut-scenes as higher canon.

    Now, I’m probably going to encounter some ad hoc response, but hey, I’m just letting the games speak for themselves. If one has to argue or twist things around that in order to fit the already existing evidence, then the LoK series is muddled with inconsistencies.

  42. Friendlysociopath August 18, 2015 at 12:16 am -      #442

    Mind you, these are cut-scenes for those who take cut-scenes as higher canon.

    Are there people who suggest otherwise? Cutscenes are lore incarnate- it’s literally a movie with no limits beyond the ones the developers themselves have.

  43. Kitten Lord August 18, 2015 at 5:37 am -      #443

    @Aeflinn

    “The game developers COULD show the enemies being smacked into a bright red mist, but they don’t. ”

    Whether they can or not, we know they did not. But that does not mean you can automatically assume its because Kain has a blunt sword and strikes with less force than a human being because it takes him 10-20 hits to take out an enemy.

    “If he could apply a million Newtons, it shouldn’t stagger him at all, or at least a negligible amount.”

    He would have to be applying that many newtons in the direction of the shooter. Obviously he is not walking around applying his full force in every movement. We do not as humans so I do not know why you come to this conclusion.

    ” when dealing with super-strong characters is par for the course”

    So is ignoring mechanics in games.

    “establishing the true speed and strength of these characters”

    Which is why in cutscenes and other media not controlled by the player Kain dices humans, Raziel moves colossal obstacles with ease and Kain manipulates Raziel as if he were a child to worlds strongest man.

    “. They toughen the enemies up for balance reasons”

    Just like LoK. Again are you really trying to argue Kain does not strike with his sword with enough pressure to even cut the fabric the Sarafan warriors are wearing in some cases just because it is not shown in-game?

    “None of that happens with Kain”

    No but he does easily manipulate Raziel, who can output ridiculous forces as per canon, cut scenes, etc etc.

    “Gameplay shows human weapons as a threat”

    Not really, even in-game you would literally have to put the controller down and wait for a long time before the in-game enemies can kill you. It is not a hardcore experiance for gamers honestly.

    Not that it matters, human weapons can harm protagonists in a lot of games who use super human feats. Sometimes just jumping on a spike in an old game can kill you, its mechanics.

    ” It shows a Vampire of similar level to Kain ”

    This is conjecture. He is younger than Kain and is lower down the evolutionary ladder. He has no feats.

    ” having been stabbed through by human spears.”

    We do not know how or when. How being important because although it helps your argument to assume men just came up to him and impaled him this is not necessarily the case. They could have weakened him with magic, they could have used a siege weapon to fire them into him, they could have done countless other things. the when is more interesting.

    Vampires evolve over time, and as Dumah points out become more powerful after time in “limbo. Considering there is a big difference between evolved vampires and non evolved (like those in BO 2) extremeing from human soldiers being able to handle them in ages past to the super re-generators that force even Raziel to look for other ways of finishing them off beyond physical blows adds more unknowns to how Dumah was killed.

    “He also gets killed by an explosion that’s not really all that scary, in the grand scheme of things.”

    Its an industrial incinerator. You have to burn vampires, especially higher tier ones to actually get rid of them or they just come back.

    @Mea

    ” so the idea that the two have remotely similar strength feats is unsupported”

    Apart from the fact they face each other quite consistently and Kain is shown to be his superior in every showing. even when Raziel is struggling against him

    “Kain could have easily man-handled this door. ”

    He could yes, he could have also cut through it. Only, you know, he was heading in the other direction.

    “then the LoK series is muddled with inconsistencies.”


    How is Kain not wanting to kick down a door inconsistent with his strength? Same with the wall, which was all in-game.

    @Friendly

    “Cutscenes are lore incarnate”


    Well shit, this is ironic coming from the guy who wants to ignore the Soul reaver 2 intro because Kain can take damage to his health bar in-game….

    www.quickmeme.com/img/fa/fa612704898ceb782f9a0c9b9b4575ded000dd184639f54ef9a438b0022d4cc1.jpg

  44. Kitten Lord August 18, 2015 at 5:49 am -      #444

    @Klond

    “My full physical strenght means that he has the proper leverage, grounding force, stance. ”

    You do not need those things to output little to no force, like effortless force.

    “The problem with the weightlifter is that he is placed in an environment where he is mentally prepared, ”

    Yes but he is also a lowball. We are scaling superhuman capability from a human being. Even though Raziels strength apparently supersedes vampries who are themselves superhuman.

    The boxer is also being scaled from as a highball, which makes it a lowball for Raziel in that we were using 30kg, a massive amount for his effortless strike. It would be far larger.

    ” We are comparing lifting witch uses different muscle groups to compare with pushing”

    But no muscle groups would not output more force than if you used no effort. Even your strongest muscles will output little force if you do not try, same with your weaker muscles. Not sure this is all about muscle mass anyway is it, because if you look at Raziel he outputs crazy force despite the fact his body is thin.

    It does not take me a great deal more effort to lift up my dining room chairs than it would to push them. “more”? maybe, but by a massive amount? not really. Negligible.

    “However when I said that the way that he was moving indicated that it was not effortless you argued that it was game mechanics. ”

    No its because your trying to decipher it from the games graphics, not its mechanics. And more importantly against what the in-game characters say.

    The size of blocks are static and chosen by the devs, as are the numbers of them stacked atop eachother and how Raziel manipulates them. This has nothing to do with the mechanics in regards to the player, the puzzles could have been made using smaller blocks like in Blood omen 2 and Soul reaver 2.

    The blocks could have all been made out of wood instead of using various metals and stones. The Devs outlined his strength several times.

    Also the obelisk I showed you is purely cutscene based. It is massive compared to the blocks yet still flips it the same way he does the blocks.

  45. Klondike Bar August 18, 2015 at 9:28 am -      #445

    I mean to output his maximum amount of force not his minimum. I am saying that you have to show that Raziel is not stressed when fighting Kain’s grip.

    The only thing that the devs tell us is that he can move the massive block effortlessly. I can move a chair effortlessly the same way he moves those blocks. Add another and it is still easy but becomes harder. It is no longer effortless. And that Obleisk. He does not effortlessly push it over. He grabs it by the bottom and pulls up. Sure it is heavy but he is definitely not carrying the full weight and I do not think that you can somehow claim that was effortless.

    I am going to be gone today. My family is going to a water Park.

  46. Mea quidem sententia August 18, 2015 at 11:49 am -      #446

    @Kitten Lord
    Are you power scaling, Kitten Lord? Oh, my. Please, show me where the struggling occurs.

    Only, you know, he actually kicked at the door and didn’t even shake it or leave a dent. And, you know, he struck at a ruined, stone wall and didn’t destroy it with one swing. It took three strikes. Then there’s Sarafan knights he battles as he progresses and he still fails to use this same force that he can use. So here’s two options I can think of. 1. Kain doesn’t have this physical strength you’re claiming. 2. Kain does have this physical strength, but never uses it.

    It’s clear that Kain tried kicking the door down and failed. It’s not that he didn’t want to, else he wouldn’t have tried. That wall striking led to a cut-scene, so it’s part of it. Sorry, but you cannot fall back on “game mechanics”. That’s just a cop out that many seem to go for when things don’t favor their notions. Really, if the developers wanted the wall scene to take a single strike, they could have.

  47. Friendlysociopath August 18, 2015 at 1:53 pm -      #447

    Well shit, this is ironic coming from the guy who wants to ignore the Soul reaver 2 intro because Kain can take damage to his health bar in-game….

    When did I say that? Please point me to where I said we have to ignore that cutscene? In fact I’ve referenced it several times:
    Proof that Kain doesn’t use TK off the bat
    Proof that Kain is arrogant enough to let foes close to him
    Proof that Kain’s TK travels
    Proof that Kain’s TK isn’t instant
    Proof that Raziel doesn’t strike with multiple tons of strength
    Proof that Kain strikes with equally less strength
    Proof that LoK can show environment damage and don’t do so for Raziel and Kain
    Honestly I’ve used that cutscene more than you have considering you mostly just repeat your line about Kain’s strength.

    Not that it matters, human weapons can harm protagonists in a lot of games who use super human feats.

    Except Kain’s world explicitly remarks on the damage in-game and how it applies to them, so we know it’s real to them. Being hurt causes them to lose blood, which they replenish. The health bar has been brought into canon because characters refer to it.

    We do not know how or when.

    They walked in and stabbed him to death, not incredibly hard even by our standards.
    By all accounts LoK vampires aren’t that superhuman that they’re untouchable: their speed is negligible, they aren’t durable enough to shake off human weapons. They’re somewhat strong and can regen quickly- but that apparently isn’t enough to stop humans from killing them.

    You want to prove they used siege weapon? Go for it- that’s stretching far worse than anything I’ve done.

    Only the vampires in the “newer” canon (Nosgoth) are not exactly the same as the ones Raziel fights.

    You’re right, Raziel fights the weaker fledglings for the most part, the ones in Nosgoth are full-on vampires so they should be stronger than that- still taken down by humans.

  48. Kitten Lord August 18, 2015 at 3:41 pm -      #448

    @Klond

    “. I am saying that you have to show that Raziel is not stressed when fighting Kain’s grip.”

    What do you mean he is not “stressed”? Hes being held, but he has his arms free and what not, and was ready to plow into Kain and attack him.

    “He grabs it by the bottom and pulls up. Sure it is heavy but he is definitely not carrying the full weight”


    This does not change the fact he moves the same way he does when moving small blocks. If you move something the same way with pretty much no extra shown or known stress than you did when you moved the effortless block before then it is fairly conclusive.

    Also he is carrying a lot of its weight at varying points.

    @Mea

    “Only, you know, he actually kicked at the door and didn’t even shake it or leave a dent. ”

    When I knock my door open with my foot I do not have to smash it off the hinges every time I do so.

    “, he struck at a ruined, stone wall and didn’t destroy it with one swing. It took three strikes.”


    in-game, clearly the wall as a prop just like the enemies are “actors” have X amount of health. Obviously in-game he takes 10-20 hits to kill soldiers so its not beyond belief it took him a few hits to knock a wall down.

    ” 2. Kain does have this physical strength, but never uses it.”


    Not sure about “never” since he manhandles Raziel struggling with him with ease. Its more a necessity thing. You do not use full strength for every motion you do in life so why should Kain?

    “t’s not that he didn’t want to”

    Obviously he does not want to because he just came through that door and was going the other way.

    “That wall striking led to a cut-scene, so it’s part of it. ”

    That wall striking was pure gameplay. A cutscene played after the wall broke.

    @Friendly

    “Honestly I’ve used that cutscene more than you have ”

    Then answer why your list is full of things not in that scene? or not covered by that scene?

    “The health bar has been brought into canon because characters refer to it.”

    When do they refer to the health bar? Do they actually call it a health bar because unless they do your making things up. They may say Kain can heal through drinking blood, sure….this is true.

    That still does not make every player mistake on being hit by humans or damage in-game canon.

    “They walked in and stabbed him to death”

    Show me. I can just as easily claim they walked in while he was sleeping/pre-occupied, used an artifact such as Moebius’ staff to leave him helpess, doused him in water, blasted him with major and then used a ballistae to fire those spears into him. I got all that from using the same picture of Dumah impaled as you did to say people walked in and stabbed him.

    Also Dumah has few if any feats, so you cannot compare him to Kain anyway.

    “You’re right, Raziel fights the weaker fledglings for the most part”

    No you see Nosgoth is set before the soul reaver era. During the war between vampires and humans. If you read the soul reaver manuel you would read this passage;

    “humans scattered across the hinterlands, clinging to their hopeless holy war to rid Nosgoth of “the vampire scourge”. They were tolerated. They made existence for the fledglings more challenging. – Page 8 SR manuel

    Also not sure where you got Raziel only fighting fledlings from. The fledlings are the smaller beings scattered around some of the lower levels but Razieil fights mostly adults with a bunch of enhanced versions thrown in.

    The humans of the Soul reaver era still had some modest technology as well like flamethrowers.

  49. Kitten Lord August 18, 2015 at 3:53 pm -      #449

    Also to add to that. I find it funny how your using the Nosgoth game to debase vampires when the vampires still win canonically, to the point where humanity is little more than small tolerated kingdoms for sport.

    But more importantly, Nosgoth enhances humans dramatically. Basically vampires in LoK won a war against humans who wield far more equipment thanks to Nosgoths inclusion than SR ever showed.

    It also makes my suggestions on how they beat Dumahs clan far more likely. Because as shown in Nosgoth humanity are not limited to just running about with spears, their not in SR 1 either tbh. Humans have consistently used all kindsof weapons and magic.

  50. Mea quidem sententia August 18, 2015 at 7:59 pm -      #450

    @Kitten Lord
    Are you intending to kick your door open when it’s locked, and are you locked in and trying to get out? Because it just seems odd that Kain would even bother when he could have just made a comment about how the humans love their doors.

    Yeah, no. “In-game” doesn’t mean anything here. The developers could have made it so it could break with a single strike. I can understand humans taking more damage than usual. It wouldn’t be fun to kill your enemies in a single blow early on in the game, but that’s because of common knowledge about the frailty of human beings. So it is with ruined, stone walls.

    I’ve been telling you that Raziel doesn’t always need to use all of his strength all the time, but in Kain’s case, he does more than just tell us that humans love doors. He kicks at it. Anyone with the strength you claim he has would have easily busted it down. In fact, Kain kicks open a double door before encountering Moebius, and yet the doors don’t fly off their hinges.

    I’ve seen shows where doors are closed on people and they’ll go up to the door to get out before just continuing forward.

    Game play or not, you cannot fall back on it. Go ahead and try, but the developer would have easily been able to make it a single strike.

  51. Aelfinn August 18, 2015 at 8:11 pm -      #451

    “Whether they can or not, we know they did not. But that does not mean you can automatically assume its because Kain has a blunt sword and strikes with less force than a human being because it takes him 10-20 hits to take out an enemy.”

    That’s not at all what I’m saying. I’m saying he isn’t striking with a million Newtons. That level of strength is not indicated in combat.
    =
    “He would have to be applying that many newtons in the direction of the shooter. Obviously he is not walking around applying his full force in every movement. We do not as humans so I do not know why you come to this conclusion.”

    You see something about to hit you, you push against it. Say you’re tussling with a friend, they push you, and you push back. Either you get pushed over, or you don’t move. This isn’t exactly something I’m very strung up on, but whether or not you get moved around has very much to do with the force you apply when you get moved around.

    Put another way: If someone comes out of nowhere, and you have relatively little time to react, you’re going to tighten your muscles and resist getting pushed as it’s happening. Whether you end up pushed or not is a factor of how much force you apply in return.
    =
    “So is ignoring mechanics in games.”

    Except environmental destruction is a side effect. An extraneous occurrence that should happen BECAUSE a feat is performed. Hercules lifting Godzilla is the feat. The environmental damage is extraneous. Kain fighting the soldiers is the feat.
    =
    “Just like LoK. Again are you really trying to argue Kain does not strike with his sword with enough pressure to even cut the fabric the Sarafan warriors are wearing in some cases just because it is not shown in-game?”

    That’s not what I’m arguing at all. What I’m arguing is that the gameplay and comics are how we glean information about how Kain interacts with enemies He doesn’t have the QTE’s and Cinematics that others do. So what do the comics tell us? He can relatively casually kill base humans. What does the gameplay tell us? He isn’t totally obliterating them.
    =
    “No but he does easily manipulate Raziel, who can output ridiculous forces as per canon, cut scenes, etc etc.”

    Firstly, power-scaling. Secondly, neither of their striking forces in game or comics matches up with their lifting/pulling feats. Which isn’t to say they’re totally un-related, but just because you can push furniture around doesn’t mean you punch super hard.
    =
    “Not that it matters, human weapons can harm protagonists in a lot of games who use super human feats. Sometimes just jumping on a spike in an old game can kill you, its mechanics.”

    Most of them have some kind of feat definitively backing their durability up. Kain has A) power-scaling off of Raziel and B) the fact that human-based weapons hurt him. You don’t quite realize the dearth of feats that Kain has.
    =
    “This is conjecture. He is younger than Kain and is lower down the evolutionary ladder. He has no feats.”

    Raziel can literally pull Kain’s heart out. Raziel has to resort to an explosion to kill Dumah. Also, being on a different evolutionary path doesn’t mean you’re inferior in all respects. That’s not how evolution works. Are Gorillas weaker than humans, now?
    =
    “We do not know how or when. How being important because although it helps your argument to assume men just came up to him and impaled him this is not necessarily the case. They could have weakened him with magic, they could have used a siege weapon to fire them into him, they could have done countless other things. the when is more interesting.”

    Even a siege weapon isn’t going to exert terapascals, or even gigapascals. I don’t quite know of any catapults that turned castles into molten slag.
    =
    “Its an industrial incinerator. You have to burn vampires, especially higher tier ones to actually get rid of them or they just come back.”

    Well, looky here:
    “Most hazardous waste incinerators are operated at 980 C
    to 1200 C “

    www.epa.gov/ttnchie1/mkb/documents/fthermal.pdf

    Not sure what you want to take from that, but it’s not like a nuclear explosion, that’s for sure.

  52. Amm0vamp1r3 August 18, 2015 at 8:22 pm -      #452

    In fact, Kain kicks open a double door before encountering Moebius, and yet the doors don’t fly off their hinges.

    Truly we have gone full circle lol. Not only are we now back to “needing superman to beat kain” but I have almost said word for word this exacty argument that when Kain kicks doors they don’t explode and splinter or even come off the hinges and these are regular wooden doors

  53. Klondike Bar August 18, 2015 at 8:54 pm -      #453

    Kitten. The problem is that you have to prove that as Raziel is being held up by Kain he is completely calm and focused and that he can apply his full physical force. We cannot assume that he can do 100+ times more as an effortless action otherwise. For all we know Raziel is extremely smart and a full half of his force comes from striking the exact spot on a person that is the most fragile. I am not trying to actually say that but it is an example.

    I will explain it another way. If I want to hurt someone then I know ways of applying more force such as turning into the punch and stuff. However if I get really angry I do nothing like that I just punch as fast and as hard as I can. I sure as hell do not hold back an force my muscles can produce but it is very noneffective. So this is what I am saying that you need to prove.

    And you also never countered my argument saying that you can not tell from the outside when something switches from effortless to strenuous.

    Also the walls health is scripted just as much as those blocks Raziel moves. If they wanted us to think Kain could easily break walls and was toying with humans.

  54. Friendlysociopath August 18, 2015 at 9:16 pm -      #454

    Truly we have gone full circle lol.

    The Wheel just keeps turning, there is a certain irony to this don’t you think?

  55. Amm0vamp1r3 August 18, 2015 at 9:26 pm -      #455


    The Wheel just keeps turning, there is a certain irony to this don’t you think?


    Haha yes, there is a certain irony about this wheel of fate we’ve somehow been caught in

  56. Mea quidem sententia August 18, 2015 at 9:26 pm -      #456

    @Aelfinn
    Your typical candle flame produces 1,000°C, believe it or not.

    @Amm0vamp1r3
    What’s sad is we’re not even the first to bring these issues up.

  57. Amm0vamp1r3 August 18, 2015 at 9:41 pm -      #457

    @Mea
    I can believe it if he truly is Burning Thought

  58. Klondike Bar August 18, 2015 at 9:55 pm -      #458

    Oh yea. I remember a burning thought on Reddit. Has Kitten made those same claims? Like Kain is more durrable than Dumah?

  59. Mea quidem sententia August 18, 2015 at 10:08 pm -      #459

    @Amm0vamp1r3
    Kitten Lord is Burning thought and Total Broadband, just like how I am Proto-Mind and Dryn.

  60. Friendlysociopath August 18, 2015 at 10:28 pm -      #460

    I don’t have to deal with any of that- I’m me across the entire internet that allows 17 Character names 😀

  61. Kitten Lord August 19, 2015 at 5:57 am -      #461

    @Mea

    “Yeah, no. “In-game” doesn’t mean anything here. ”

    Yes it does. In-game actors that the player strikes have X amount of health and his attacks do X damage. Its a mechanic.

    “Kain kicks open a double door before encountering Moebius, and yet the doors don’t fly off their hinges.”

    Well yeah, because like I said when opening a door you do not necessarily use all your force.

    “Go ahead and try, but the developer would have easily been able to make it a single strike.”

    The devs could make everything a single strike but that would require very little effort from the player, which would be relatively boring.

    @Aeflinn

    ” That level of strength is not indicated in combat.”

    No level of normal force is indicated in the player driven combat.

    “You see something about to hit you, you push against it. ”

    The player in control of Kain does not have access to a “tense” button do they? No….also you make it sound like Kain really cares about jolted a little by something hitting him. Why even bother? it does nothing.

    “. Kain fighting the soldiers is the feat.”

    An gameplay feat, which is not necesserily a feat but then by that logic the damage we see inflicted on the characters are extraneous.

    “Firstly, power-scaling. ”

    Where is your definition of power scaling. I would like to see it because that is not power scaling in my book. If Tim and Jhon have a race, and Jhon wins by a long way clearly Jhon is faster, so its a feat like any other.

    ” but just because you can push furniture around doesn’t mean you punch super hard.”

    If you can impale large blocks with your effortless strikes it does. Also were not talking about furniture, were talking about 200-1k tons. That is an extreme amount of force. You bet if I could move that I would be able to put more force and pressure on you than a normal human being in any situation.

    “–
    Most of them have some kind of feat definitively backing their durability up. Kain has A) power-scaling off of Raziel and B) the fact that human-based weapons hurt him. ”

    The second part never happens in canon. The first part is an actual feat, as in 100% of all canon instances of him being damaged has him not being pierced by Raziel and easily manipulating the forces he outputs.

    Whats more, SR1 shows Kain immune to Raziels claws as covered.

    “Raziel can literally pull Kain’s heart out.”

    Yeah at the end of the series, after using the wraith blade on him.

    “Also, being on a different evolutionary path doesn’t mean you’re inferior in all respects. ”

    No but their vampiric evolution is based purely on a small fragment of Kains soul. Vampires also gain more power from the blood they drink, and Kain has been around centuries longer than any of his sons.

    This is not the point though. Its just a side thought, the main thing is Dumah literally has no feats to compare to Kain. You cannot show me Raziel clawring at him like you see him do to Kain and Kain just laughing it off or standing uninjured.

    “Even a siege weapon isn’t going to exert terapascals, or even gigapascals. I don’t quite know of any catapults that turned castles into molten slag.”

    How can we be sure? The technology of the humans in SR era are fairly advanced. If you consider thousands of years prior they had basic cars and were in the middle of the industrial era.

    My point was a siege weapon would output more pressure fireing a spear than a man thrusting with it would.

    “Not sure what you want to take from that, but it’s not like a nuclear explosion, that’s for sure.”

    Never said it would take the heat of a nuclear explosion to melt any vampire, not even Kain…

    @Klond

    “Raziel is being held up by Kain he is completely calm and focused ”

    Why would you have to be calm? If anything him being enraged and struggling means he is going to use more force out of instinct to free himself.

    “I sure as hell do not hold back an force my muscles can produce but it is very noneffective”

    We are only talking about the force. The force makes up the final pressure. Yes if you hit someone in certain places it hurts more but this is not relevent to these scenes. I am only trying to find base force.

    “And you also never countered my argument saying that you can not tell from the outside when something switches from effortless to strenuous.”

    There are ways of telling. For example if something was difficult for Kain to do with one arm, there is no reason why he would not apply both. If you watch weiught lifters, like say, worlds strongest man you can see the look on their faces, the breathing, the sweat, the tensing of the muscles.

    Kain has none of this, Kain is just speaking casually with an unwavering grip. You can see the opposite reaction were looking for based on appearances on Raziel. Struggling until defeat, tensing his legs and strianing etc.

    “Also the walls health is scripted just as much as those blocks Raziel moves”

    The blocks are not broken by Raziel. Their not a “breakable” prop players can smash in the game.

  62. Klondike Bar August 19, 2015 at 9:22 am -      #462

    “The blocks are not broken by Raziel. Their not a “breakable” prop players can smash in the game.”

    However they are still just as scripted as the wall. I could argue that you can not use that feat as they do not move like they would in real life. If we are saying that since that was scripted into the game so we could see what his strength is then we should also assume that since the wall can not fight back in any way that it was made to gauge how strong Kain is.

    “There are ways of telling.”

    Only once it goes past not being effortless to strenuous. I will use my chair example again. Holding one chair is effortless. Holding two is not quite effortless any more. I still talk normally and everything but It is not effortless as my arms will get tired doing it.

    I will also use the other example again. I use the same movements and talk the same way and everything when moving a chair as when I move a Love seat. The love seat is definitely not effortless. It is still easy but no longer fits the definition of effortless.

    I will list the things that you need to answer and prove to prove Raziel applied his full amount of energy on Kain.

    Was he in any way injured? Was he in any way tired? Was he able to plant his feet on the ground firmly? Was he in the proper state of mind to use his strength in the most effective way? Was he applying his strength in the best direction?

    Every single one of these would have to be proven for you to claim that Raziel is exerting his full 100+ multiplier. And by the mental state bit. If nervous or scared yes you will use more energy to fire your muscles. But as I said you waste a lot of it. I can knock down my brother easily when calm without hitting hard. However when Angry I can punch him really hard several times and he will still be standing.

    And once again to remind you. If Raziel pushed too hard he would break his own neck. Witch would definitely be possible as humans can break their own necks and we are scaling everything they do off of humans.

  63. Kitten Lord August 19, 2015 at 10:09 am -      #463

    @Bar

    “However they are still just as scripted as the wall”

    The war is a programmed breakable prop though. Each wall takes X hits, and has X health. While Kains blows have X damage they deal. We know Kains in-game damage when the player controls him is pathetic because he takes 20 hits to kill men.

    “. If we are saying that since that was scripted into the game so we could see what his strength is ”

    Thing is the blocks are specifically referred to as something Raziel can manipulate effortlessly. The walls are obviously not even referred to and we know Kain, nay any superhuman or even a human could break down a crumbly brick wall.

    ” The love seat is definitely not effortless. It is still easy but no longer fits the definition of effortless.”

    Your examples are anecdotal. I cannot measure them myself, I do not know what sort of chairs you use, their weight etc nor the difference between that and the love seat.

    I know if I try and hold a chair in my house, like a dining room chair outstretched like Kain holds out Raziel, especially with one arm it will definitely waver, if not become impossible after a second.

    “I will list the things that you need to answer and prove to prove Raziel applied his full amount of energy on Kain.”

    I never said he uses his full amount of energy. Merely all he can in that position. Either way, this is far more than he would without effort.

    “Every single one of these would have to be proven for you to claim that Raziel is exerting his full 100+ multiplier”

    The 100x multiplier is not his full strength as I keep pointing out. It is a lowball multiplier used with crazy high weight for what effortless means. It is also scaled off a human, which is the best we have but honestly its laughable compared to superhuman.

    “And once again to remind you. If Raziel pushed too hard he would break his own neck. ”

    Would he? do we know the tensile strength of his neck? Remeber his bonelike claws are what he uses to impale blocks. They would have to be damn hard to succeed under those pressures without breaking.

    So he would have to output monstrous force to snap his own neck. And even if he did, I am not sure this would do anything t o him as a wraith. Funnily enough if I recall there is an idle animation in SR 1 that has Raziel cracking his neck.

    The force of his neck on Kains hand/fingers would be spread over a huge surface area.

  64. Mea quidem sententia August 19, 2015 at 10:37 am -      #464

    @Kitten Lord
    I’m not even talking about the amount of health, so I don’t know why you brought that up.

    And you don’t necessarily have to kick at doors, either. You could just open them, but once again, Kain kicked at a locked door instead of just leaving it alone and making a comment about how the humans love their doors.

    That’s not my problem and that’s not even what I’m saying. As if striking at a wall in a single blow would have meant that it would be necessary to apply this to everyone. Besides, there’s that comic of Kain killing his opponents with relative ease.

  65. Klondike Bar August 19, 2015 at 10:45 am -      #465

    “I know if I try and hold a chair in my house, like a dining room chair outstretched like Kain holds out Raziel, especially with one arm it will definitely waver, if not become impossible after a second.”

    I was referring to pushing things around. It was meant to be anecdotal. It was just to show that I look the same from the outside when pushing things of different weight. You can rather easily test it out at home. None of what I am saying has to be a constant.

    Sure the 100+ number was based off of a human but we only did it to find the difference between effort and straining.

    It also does not matter if it is his full strength or not. We are saying that when straining in the ideal environment he can output that much more lifting when straining. We cannot assume that he can use anywhere near his full strength unless he meets all of the requirements.

    If we could just ignore that and say eh it is a low ball then I see no reason we should not use my example of dragging the stones. That was a pretty crazy highball. I am almost finished with the summary I want to post here on the stone pulling argument. I might just finish it today. If so I might not reply.

  66. Kitten Lord August 19, 2015 at 11:03 am -      #466

    @Mea

    ” You could just open them”


    A gate came down across it, so clearly he could not just open it unless he really wanted to break it. He just put his foot on it to see if its sealed. That is not to say that if he really wanted to get through the door he could not.

    “I was referring to pushing things around”

    Thing is, if these things were heavy “enough” to be relevant. Like Raziels blocks in weight you would obviously show signs of effort.

    “Sure the 100+ number was based off of a human but we only did it to find the difference between effort and straining.”

    Well yeah for humans. Until we can scale from actual superhumans in the game, which is impossible because I do not think there is an obvious scale there it will always be a lowball. Raziel can output 50 MN the same way he does 1 MN etc. All effortless. No strain, no wavering arms, no sweat on his brow etc.

    “We cannot assume that he can use anywhere near his full strength unless he meets all of the requirements.”

    The only requirement for him to be able to output more force than he does on those blocks is if he is “trying” rather than putting no effort in at all.

    “If we could just ignore that and say eh it is a low ball”

    We ignore a lot of those things you mentioned because their barely relevent when a difference between effort and no effort are concerned. There is no “environment” that would make something like a feather for example heavy for a human.

    Even if your feet are not touching the ground, its not heavy in the least.

  67. Klondike Bar August 19, 2015 at 11:25 am -      #467

    Yes but the weight lifter can not lift his high numbers even when straining if he is injured, tired, emotionly unbalanced etc. I am not trying to say that moving the blocks becomes harder, I am trying to say that hurting Kain becomes Harder. Also iirc the weightlifter can not continually lift this amount. He strains himself past the point of safety to do any more than he does.

    Can you prove that anything else besides moving that first stone block is effortless? I do not instantly start to sweat when lifting something that is starting to strain me. I do not instantly waver my muscles. You have made the point that Raziel does not have the bodily functions to sweat and stuff.

    Thing is, if these things were heavy “enough” to be relevant. Like Raziels blocks in weight you would obviously show signs of effort.

    Yes I would. However that is why I am not saying I could lift them. I am saying that doubling somethings weight makes it harder to push. It can still be easy but not effortless anymore.

    Almost done with my other argument.

  68. Klondike Bar August 19, 2015 at 11:54 am -      #468

    “Building a tomb requires the sponsorship of a wealthy individual with the assistance of supporters from both within and outside of his affiliated clan group. The endeavor of erecting a megalithic tomb in West Sumba can be very costly, and it can take several years from the time a person begins preparing to build a tomb to the time in which it is completed.”

    www.academia.edu/3359825/Megalithic_Tombs_Power_and_Social_Relations_in_West_Sumba_Indonesia

    “The traditional method for transporting megalithic stones in Sumba is to haul them atop wooden sledges (tena watu) (Fig. 9.3). A sledge with its attached stone is pulled using vine ropes, requiring between 100 and 1000 people for the large capstones or standing kado watu stones, while lesser numbers are needed to move the stones for the tomb walls (50-100 people). It can take from one day to nearly one month to transport the largest stones in this manner from a quarry to the tomb owner’s village, depending on the size of the stone and the distance to be travelled. Each day the stone is moved, several pigs, and at times water buffaloes, are slaughtered to feed the stone haulers and the spectators who are invited to view the proceedings. The labour for this endeavour typically comes from the tomb owner’s clan as well as from other allied clans” (page 85).

    www.academia.edu/3359363/Transforming_Stone_Ethnoarchaeological_Perspectives_on_Megalith_Form_in_Eastern_Indonesia

    My internet has been dying recently so to access that site I had to visit my University.

    Anyways. These two reports show that slave labor was not used to build these tombs and that they were well fed and in decent health. It also shows that when I said that maybe they were able to go twice as fast as me that was hilarious.

    Even if we assume that is was the smallest amount of time given witch is one day(I am assuming a ten hour work time). that would mean that even if they were able to go four times faster and went twice the distance they would still only go a little over four times as much effort as I do when dragging my little empty sled.

    I personally believe that my example is better because in it people drag a rock like Raziel does. In it the people are not placed in an ideal environment thus removing the need for me to prove that Raziel was in perfect condition for fighting Kain. And I personally feel like my effortless action is something that everyone will agree is actually something effortless.

    I have no idea how BankGambling decides witch example to use so I guess unless stated otherwise it is up to Admin or Rookie.

    P.S. I have to leave soon and will be unable to post.

  69. Mea quidem sententia August 19, 2015 at 3:50 pm -      #469

    @Kitten Lord
    He kicked at the gate, but the part you quoted me on was with regard to the double doors, not the gate. If I wanted to see if a gate was locked, I would try lifting it up if it had come down, not kick at it. Even in the comic, Kain isn’t showing that level of strength. It just seems odd that he never uses this strength.

  70. Amm0vamp1r3 August 19, 2015 at 4:00 pm -      #470

    Ok what is Kains strength being said to be now? Core of the sun level right? So how did this happen? You calced what scenes because I stopped paying attention to this a while ago

  71. Friendlysociopath August 19, 2015 at 4:11 pm -      #471

    @Ammo
    If you check Rag’s comment #204 he sums it up pretty simply.

    After that it’s mostly everyone pointing out how Kain’s strength/durability isn’t shown to be the level Kitten says it is. All of Kain’s in-game feats point to him being, at most, able to strike with a few thousands Newtons.
    Actually, that applies to Raziel tool same issues.

  72. Amm0vamp1r3 August 19, 2015 at 4:30 pm -      #472

    Well after reading post #204 Idk how this is still going on lol Rag shut it down, dropped the mic and left (literally)

  73. Friendlysociopath August 19, 2015 at 4:49 pm -      #473

    For example:


    Within a minute you can see Raziel disintegrate an enemy because he was using the Fire Reaver.
    So we know for a fact that
    A) The Developers could show that
    B) The Developers don’t have Kain and Raziel do that
    Interpret that how you will- I’m going with Raziel and Kain not being strong enough to do so.

    Later, same video, Raziel is trapped in a cell by a door and bars by Moebius.
    Raziel is helpless again them- and he wanted to kill Moebius, that door and bars stopped him from doing so.

    Oh look, a cutscene of Raziel fighting… Raziel


    Look at all those tons of energy as he stabs him and barely lifts him off of the ground- and his body is in such fine condition too.

  74. LadyRamkin August 19, 2015 at 4:51 pm -      #474

    “Look at all those tons of energy as he stabs him and barely lifts him off of the ground- and his body is in such fine condition too.”

    You do realise that this is going to be twisted in to some kind of durability feat?

  75. Klondike Bar August 19, 2015 at 4:59 pm -      #475

    Hey friendly. Kitten and I have been arguing over the difference between effortless and strenuous. We each gave our own examples and as far as I know we both believe that our own examples are better examples. What exactly is proper BankGambling rules for this. Do we each debate using our own results and get numbers based on that?

    Anyway for reference I got slightly more that four times as much energy and Kitten got somewhere around 126 times as much.

  76. Soulerous August 19, 2015 at 5:31 pm -      #476

    Rules are that we go with the best provable feat. 126x is an inflation based on an interpretation that, although possible, is nonetheless speculation. Speculation can safely be disregarded.

  77. Friendlysociopath August 19, 2015 at 5:33 pm -      #477

    Kitten and I have been arguing over the difference between effortless and strenuous.

    Kitten has been arguing with “everyone” over the difference between effortless and strenuous.

    What exactly is proper BankGambling rules for this.
    Proper
    Proper BankGambling Rules

    There aren’t any. 😆
    “Effortless” means nothing because it’s an opinionated statement just like “Great Distance”.
    It holds no value unless you can somehow prove without a doubt how much that is.

    For example:
    If any anime character says something is “effortless” and then later claims that 1% of their power is what they equate to that- then you have something to go off of. Even then- you still need prove the power-to-strength ratio is 1-1.

    But “effortless” by itself could mean anything- and so it means nothing.

  78. Klondike Bar August 19, 2015 at 5:55 pm -      #478

    Mkay. So is it Rookie who hands out BankGambling awards now? If so can he look at the thread and declare anything? Or do we have to wait until the actual BankGambling award to find out?

    P.S. I really hope that a match that I suggested comes out. It would be a great one.

  79. Soulerous August 19, 2015 at 6:38 pm -      #479

    Admin still does the awards. A while back he asked for volunteers to post matches because he was going to be spending less time on here. Rookie volunteered and was qualified, but I don’t know that he has any authority in addition to this. A lot of people could have volunteered.
    ~
    BankGambling Awards are relatively rare in general, and most matches won’t get one. But we can always hope.

  80. Jake_Uzumaki August 19, 2015 at 7:04 pm -      #480

    Are we really considering this for an FP award?

  81. Klondike Bar August 19, 2015 at 7:07 pm -      #481

    No I was not considering any award. I was just wondering if we could bring anyone in with authority to make a decision on the issue with Kitten. Namely who’s effortless feat would be used if a fact pile award was to be given.

  82. Friendlysociopath August 19, 2015 at 7:15 pm -      #482

    Namely who’s effortless feat would be used if a fact pile award was to be given.

    Technically speaking- neither. Either way it’s still speculation- we won’t use yours for the same reasons we won’t use his.
    FP Award is literally just a “You win” button for the site; there’s even a clause about possibly undoing them I think.

    A lot of people could have volunteered.

    Several did, although so far as I’m aware only Rookie and myself were given Author status.

    The Award is somewhat rare now, USA vs UK was the first one in a long time- and that was mostly due to popular demand.

    In essence most debates go:
    1) Establishing characters
    2) Comparing feats
    3) Debate about how to interpret said feats
    4) Votes for who people think would win

    But sometimes steps 2 and 3 take a longer time to go through: I think Dark Trooper vs Space Marine had a TON of pages.

  83. Soulerous August 19, 2015 at 7:45 pm -      #483

    I should point out for clarity’s sake that voting has never been how we decide matches. It is essentially a way of letting the minority know that what they say doesn’t matter, but would be an appeal to popularity if we took it beyond that. It isn’t an ideal situation, but is ushered in when those who are incorrect refuse to give up. Barring Kitten Lord, that isn’t common.

  84. Klondike Bar August 19, 2015 at 7:58 pm -      #484

    I was mainly wondering just since I remember on a old thread Zeratul vs Raziel something like that happened. Honestly I would not mind if I was wrong. Just was wondering if there was a way to get out of a deadlock.

    Thanks for the replies though it is always helpful to know a few more of the rule- I mean guidelines.

  85. Friendlysociopath August 19, 2015 at 8:10 pm -      #485

    Just was wondering if there was a way to get out of a deadlock.

    If one person is stubbornly refusing to give ground then no, there’s not a heck of a lot you can do.

    it is always helpful to know a few more of the rule- I mean guidelines.

    There’s a tab over to the right that says,
    “BankGambling Debating Rules”
    Wouldn’t hurt to give that a read.
    If you ever take a Critical Thinking class a lot of the same rules are taught- BankGambling legit helped me pass a college class; not saying it was a hard class to begin with- but it was easy because so much of the terminology was already known to me.

  86. Klondike Bar August 19, 2015 at 8:16 pm -      #486

    Damn. I feel like a fool. I will look at those now. And I know what you mean. I was able to try out and get accepted on a high school debating team just by lurking, but sadly I never actually had the time to do it and had to quit.

  87. LadyRamkin August 19, 2015 at 10:55 pm -      #487

    I would probably like being on a debating team, i would be really bad at it, since i get all spergy when people look at me. On top of being a poor debater.

    I have also always wanted to be a comedian, but i am afraid people will laugh at me…

  88. Kitten Lord August 20, 2015 at 5:40 am -      #488

    @Klond

    “Yes but the weight lifter can not lift his high numbers even when straining if he is injured”

    Raziel is hardly injured. Your making it sound like Raziel was a wreck with some of your suggestions. He was just held by the neck and got up fine after Kain tossed him. Raziel is hardier than you give him credit for.

    “Can you prove that anything else besides moving that first stone block is effortless?”

    That block was an example. The Elder God actually says “massive obstacles” not just that block. Like i said, Raziel moves everything else literally the exact same way. If it was hard for him, he would not be able to move a mass multiple times greater, or strike with forces a hundred times greater than even that without it requiring effort.

    “Anyways. These two reports show that slave labor was not used to build these tombs and that they were well fed and in decent health. It also shows that when I said that maybe they were able to go twice as fast as me that was hilarious.”

    I worry about the fact that we are still dealing with hundreds if not thousands of individuals. And they use the sled, unlike Raziel who pulls the block along by itself.

    “I have no idea how BankGambling decides witch example to use so I guess unless stated otherwise it is up to Admin or Rookie.”

    We could just agree to disagree with our examples until then.

    @Mea

    ” It just seems odd that he never uses this strength.”

    He does when its necessary. Like when Raziel is trying to free himself.


    @Friendly

    “Within a minute you can see Raziel disintegrate an enemy because he was using the Fire Reaver.”

    Not sure what video your refering to. I watched that scene and he has yet to get the fire reaver in it. You must have uploaded the wrong part.

    I guessed you mean this? This is a case of the wraith blade. Just like the Soul reaver itself disintegrating enemies. Its a common trait of the reavers. Its not about strength. If you pass a blade through someone their not going to disintegrate even if your using tons of force. All your going to do is cut them.

    “Look at all those tons of energy as he stabs him and barely lifts him off of the ground- and his body is in such fine condition too.”

    Not sure what your trying to say. A lot of the arguments recently have been about how Kain and Raziel did not output all their force and shatter the continent every time they opened a door or stabbed someone so that automatically means they do not have great strength.

    This is some of the worst logic I have seen so far. I mean some of the fallacies can be understood as being misunderstandings or not understanding the calcluations and pressures or just being stubborn but nobody can honestly be arguing characters “always” use all their strength in every action.

    Your never going to find a scene where either Kain or Raziel are gasping with effort trying to open a door like you can with Kratos or maybe Dante.

    It just never happens. The actual lore/cutscenes show their insane strength.

    @Ammo

    “Ok what is Kains strength being said to be now? Core of the sun level right?”

    Dear Ammo that makes no sense. If you follow the debate his strength is at around millions of tons. His physical r esistnace is at least in the pettapascals. Around nuclear bomb forces.

  89. Sauroposeidon August 20, 2015 at 6:11 am -      #489

    So.. are we done then?

    Do we just declare victory and nominate Godzilla for the FPA?

    I mean.. I personally got to the point of getting Kitten to argue that a sword slash is more damaging than a world ending asteroid impact inflicting a mass extinction event.

    I don’t get how you can get any further in demonstrating that your opponent is wrong than that.

    I think we should wrap this match up, nominate Godzilla for the FPA, and move on. There’s not much else we can do, besides use Kitten as a punching bag some more.. which is fun, and the point of this match, but we’re at five pages of posts now of just making him argue in circles.

  90. Kitten Lord August 20, 2015 at 6:18 am -      #490

    @Sauro

    “I don’t get how you can get any further in demonstrating that your opponent is wrong than that.”

    You just have no idea what your talking about. An asteroid impact is very different from a sharp, small surface area blow.

    “I think we should wrap this match up, nominate Godzilla for the FPA, and move on”

    You have not provided any sources for how Godzilla can win. Saying “oh hes big, he steps on Kain! hur hur!” is not an argument. And has been countered as impossible.

    “, but we’re at five pages of posts now of just making him argue in circles.”

    Well yeah, if you repeat the same tired nonsense over and over I have to reply to it over and over. I could just do a Rag and copy and paste my posts but I do not believe in that sort of spam.

  91. Klondike Bar August 20, 2015 at 9:04 am -      #491

    “Raziel is hardly injured. Your making it sound like Raziel was a wreck with some of your suggestions. He was just held by the neck and got up fine after Kain tossed him. Raziel is hardier than you give him credit for.”

    Some of the things such as Raziel being injured I assume is not a problem to disprove. It was mainly to show that you were also making assumptions just like I did. And that those assumptions were not going to be easy to prove. A weightlifter when about to lift a large amount comes to it usually as fresh as they can and as calm as they can so as to lift with the most force.

    I agree to disagree now that I read the rules. And now I understand why you did not like my chair example.

  92. Mea quidem sententia August 20, 2015 at 10:08 am -      #492

    @Kitten Lord
    Do you mean when Kain is holding Raziel up so that he has no foundation to support himself? Because it really doesn’t matter how much strength you have. When you’re picked up off your feet, you can bet your sweet ass that there’s nothing you can do, except maybe attempt at striking your opponent in the face or kicking.

  93. Friendlysociopath August 20, 2015 at 10:34 am -      #493

    Honestly at this point we’re required to do nothing. Kitten’s theories and claims have been debunked- nothing more needs to be done here.

    Kain has skin like iron and strikes with a few thousand newtons. Not enough to kill Godzilla and he probables loses a ton of his BankGambling matches now.

  94. Amm0vamp1r3 August 20, 2015 at 10:49 am -      #494

    Kain has skin like iron and strikes with a few thousand newtons. Not enough to kill Godzilla and he probables loses a ton of his BankGambling matches now.

    Im interested which ones he would lose, I may have to look

  95. Friendlysociopath August 20, 2015 at 11:07 am -      #495

    Im interested which ones he would lose

    If I had to give my thoughts about that-
    Kain would win against:
    Link
    Kratos
    Aragorn

    Kain would have a close fight against:
    Percy Jackson
    Chosen Undead

    Kain would lose against:
    Godzilla
    DBZ
    Rand
    Alucard
    Starkiller
    Dracula

    Based on Kain’s durability being that of iron
    His strength being somewhere around Rahl’s level
    Not having spells
    Not having emblems
    Not being able to consume souls on-hit but on-kill
    TK not being instant and having to travel
    TK not being able to pinpoint blast at the cellular level with hundreds of tons behind it
    Regen apparently taking a long time to recover from a mortal blow to his heart

  96. Amm0vamp1r3 August 20, 2015 at 11:21 am -      #496

    seems accurate to me

  97. Mea quidem sententia August 20, 2015 at 11:36 am -      #497

    So Kain would have only won 27% of the matches he’s been in.

  98. Friendlysociopath August 20, 2015 at 11:57 am -      #498

    So Kain would have only won 27% of the matches he’s been in.

    Well he gets used in Teams a lot- I didn’t count those except for Chosen Undead and Rand’Al Thor.

    And honestly, Percy looks like he might beat Kain but I thought it would be silly to have only one “close fight” entrant so I put him there. It’s mostly a matter of, “Can Percy use his water quickly enough?”

  99. Kitten Lord August 20, 2015 at 2:08 pm -      #499

    @Klond

    “A weightlifter when about to lift a large amount comes to it usually as fresh as they can and as calm as they can so as to lift with the most force.”

    They just have to try and struggle against the weight and if its too heavy then they need to lift more.

    @Mea

    “Do you mean when Kain is holding Raziel up so that he has no foundation to support himself?”

    Kain is the foundation. We have gone over this. Although him not having his legs may make it weaker than his maximum potential, it would not make it weaker than his effortless potential, which is in the 50 MN range.

    @Friendly

    “Kitten’s theories and claims have been debunked- nothing more needs to be done here.”

    Ill just reverse your statement;

    My oppositions theories and claims have been dbunked- nothing more needs to be done here. But ill tear them apart again and again….

    “Kain has skin like iron and strikes with a few thousand newtons. ”

    Prove it.

    “Regen apparently taking a long time to recover from a mortal blow to his heart”

    You did not even give credit to the fact he had his heart actually torn out, the object of his immortality and animation and just got up later.

    Or that he would not lose any of those fights because he cannot be killed.

  100. Rookie August 20, 2015 at 2:16 pm -      #500

    This sure is interesting thread. I wonder who will win.

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