Hunt for Mages

Hunt for mages

Suggested by Rookie

Team mages: Ahriman (Warhammer 40K), Dyrr (Forgotten Realms), Voldemort (Harry Potter) and Ganondorf (LOZ: Twilight Princess version).

Team mercenary: Deathstroke (DC, have his standard ranged weapons, armor and his new God-Killer Sword), Captain Cold (pre-new 52, have his standard gear), Deadpool (Marvel) and Taskmaster (have his standard gear).

Team vampires: Kain and Raziel (Legacy of Kain, both at their strongest), Dracula (Castlevania: Lords of Shadow, end of the second game version) and Rayne (BloodRayne).

Team magical beings: Last Dragonborn (TES, end game version), Gandalf the White (LOTR), Lord Vile (Skulduggery Pleasant) and Lich King Arthas (World of Warcraft)

Team techno: JC Denton (Deus Ex, end game version with all his weapons from the game), Ultron (movie version, final body), Vision (Avengers movie version) and T-3000 (Terminator)

Restriction: no mind control abilities allowed.

Contest is simple. Team mages trying to stay alive and defeat other teams without leaving the castle area, while other teams hunt them. They can work together or they might hunt each other from the start this part is for them to decide. If they manage to kill all members of mages team a golden medal will appear on the battlefield. Team that managed to take this medal back to it’s starting point will win.

Battlefield: Dracula’s castle from Castlevania: Curse of Darkness.

Team mages starts in the final boss area.

Team mercenary starts before the entrance into castle.

Team vampires starts in Eneomaos Machine Tower (in the place where was a boss battle against Saint Germain)

Team magical beings starts in Aiolon Ruins.

Team techno starts in Garibaldi Temple (in where Hector faced Trevor Belmont).

Golden medal appears in Baljhet Mountains (in the place of Wyvern boss fight)

Dracula’s castle still infest with monsters, who are hostile towards all team.

So who will win in the end? Will it be one the hunters teams? Or maybe mages will win? Or maybe they will all fall to monsters?

 

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201 Comments on "Hunt for Mages"

  1. Mea quidem sententia July 28, 2015 at 11:34 am -      #101

    Kitten Lord #82
    “Kain does not wear ‘iron’ or any form of armour since becoming an elder, I have never argued Blood omen (sic) Kain as being durable.” – Alucard vs. Kain, pst #34

    “He has not worn armour since Blood omen (sic) 2. You will not see Kain wear armour since becoming an Elder.” – Kain vs. DBZ Gauntlet, post #196

    I will cover this below since you bring it up again, so don’t respond to that bit just yet.

    So, you mentioned Marcus, but not for the reason that this is where Kain receives his enhanced durability. I was under the impression you mentioned Marcus to show Kain receiving this enhanced durability. I would really appreciate it if you actually told me and others who this “elder vampire” you speak of, rather than omitting anything that could possibly favor your position.

    When I mentioned Kain wearing iron armor, you said he hadn’t done so since BO2. This implied that Kain became more durable after becoming an elder vampire. Do you see where the confusion came from if that’s not what you meant? If that’s not what you meant, then tell me what you meant.

    Well, we’ve already been through this. My point is valid because taking real life examples, we know that organisms with hardy shells are meant to protect them. Those without these are more vulnerable. Kain wore his iron armor as a human before being turned into a vampire. He continued wearing this armor throughout BO2. The reason he doesn’t wear armor doesn’t necessarily follow that he’s become more durable. It could mean that he is full of hubris, but considering what Daniel said, we both were in some respects, correct.

    The only difference is that Daniel didn’t say Kain has terapascal durability. He did say that his skin is chitinous, however. In other words, Kain’s skin is made of, pertains to, or resembles chitin. If by this, Daniel meant that Kain’s skin is made of chitin, then that means Kain has both an endo- and exoskeleton.

    They actually do see through your arguments, just like everyone else at KMC and CV. Again, you’re the only one who is trying to defend this position. They aren’t stalling any facts because if there were any facts, then we wouldn’t be having this conversation in the first place.

    Daniel may just be an artist of the game, and maybe he’s not Amy Hennig, but he was a developer of the series, which means his authority of the source supersedes yours by a longshot. The only way his words would be superseded is if Amy herself corrected Daniel. Besides, being the artist, he would have a say in how the skin looks and what the skin is made up of. In Metroid Prime, the model for Samus’ face says to make her lips rounder and fuller. Certain parts of the suits and weapons in Metroid: Other M are to be given a rubbery appearance.

    As for this new feat, it’s funny. Copper or brass, both are softer than iron. The iron feat is a lot better. Brass is pretty malleable.

  2. Spectral Observer July 28, 2015 at 11:47 am -      #102

    Hence why Kain had to weaken Raziel before striking him? Here is the difference between what Kain said and what the dev said. Kain speaks on the standpoint of legend when he first described the blade, whereas the dev outright says a sequence of events starting with the victim being killed first before its soul is devoured. It even says that Raziel’s soul only replaced the Blood Reaver’s blood draining ability, which as has been shown in cutscenes, doesn’t drain all of the victims’ blood the instant they are struck. The Reaver doesn’t kill everything it hits on strike. In Blood Omen, enemies had to be struck multiple times if Kain had no magic to “bust” them. The same game later shows that neither William nor Kain could be taken down in one hit by the blade, Kain himself healing his injuries as any other–through drinking blood. In Soul Reaver, Kain had to weaken Raziel first with his lightning before striking him down with it. In Blood Omen 2, the Hylden Lord and Kain could both withstand and deflect the blade with their metal gauntlets. The Hylden Lord was also shown to be in a near-death state by the time he was struck by the Reaver. And then there’s a certain Elder God who didn’t lose his soul and could merely get hurt simply because the Reaver was incapable of killing him. Through those examples I once again reassert that the Reaver needs to kill before it takes its targets’ souls. My assertion is not without support, as even the developer states the Reaver’s abilities as such.

    On the same vein, you are shifting the goal posts. Why bother to give Kain a regen over time ability if he never gets damaged by anything ever? Yes vampires have natural regen but nothing has been said about Kain’s inflatedly invincible armor. The devs even show Kain being damaged by Raziel’s claws as early as their first encounter in Soul Reaver, and based on what Friendly mentioned, was originally going to succumb on his injuries from Raziel at the end. The author intent is clear–Kain is not as invincible as you claim him to be.

  3. pimpmage July 28, 2015 at 11:59 am -      #103

    You guys and your fucking legacy of kain discussions. This happens literally every thread. You guys take several pages to discuss the same feat over and over and over. Honestly, take this to the topia and make a respect thread. You are dragging this match down by a combatant who isn’t even a heavy hitter here.

  4. pimpmage July 28, 2015 at 12:07 pm -      #104

    “Electrical discharge lept from staffs and fingertips. Radiant filth, like the unlight of the warp, spilled out of eye slits and speared from warding palms. Wolves were torn apart of the touch of their battle magic. or thrown back, mangled and scorched. Some were petrified into smouldering attitudes of excruciation. Their weapons charged with sorcerous power, fuming with helsmoke and sick light, the accursed traitors launched into our assaulting ranks.
    Threads(Space wolf word for souls) were cut in swaths, like scythed corn. Threads were more than cut. Some were torched back along their lengths, so that men did not merely die; the lives they had led before their deaths burned away into forgetfulness. Some were left as smears of blood or haphazardly butchered carcasses. Some were pulled limb from limb by invisible wights and the sprites of the air. Some were left as nothing but heaped white bones and scads of blackened armor. Oje died there, turned inside out by a warlock’s gesture. I saw Svessl too, split in two by an invisible blade. His blood came out of him with great, explosive force, like liquid from a pressurised cask. Hekken: cooked inside his armor. Orm Ormssen: exsanguinated. Vos-sul: blinded and pulped. Lycas Snowpelt: gutted and decapitated. Bane Fel: engulfed in a cold blue fire that consumed him but would not go out. Sfen Saarl: withered to a vile powder. Aerdor: transmogrified into a twisted, steaming, inhuman stump.”

    Feats of lesser psykers of the Thousand Sons. Of which Ahriman was the chief librarian. People get turned inside out with a gesture. And some even get their history removed from the galaxy. Somewhat like balefire.

  5. Mea quidem sententia July 28, 2015 at 12:07 pm -      #105

    We apologize pimpmage, but the next best thing to do then is to avoid having Raziel and Kain in future matches. Or Kitten Lord could choose to leave.

  6. Spectral Observer July 28, 2015 at 12:14 pm -      #106

    I apologise as well.

    Back on topic. I don’t see anything Team Vamp is going to do against Team Mage’s illusions, or against Team techno for that matter. The best they can do is potentially get to the tower first since the throne room’s tower juts out quite a lot and Dracul knows to immediately engage whoever rules the castle. Kain will likely figure out the same and follow suit. Dyrr and Ahriman are definitely going to be tough, especially since at the very least, they should be able to get the jump on Dracul and potentially turn him and (most?) of his teammates on each other.

  7. Friendlysociopath July 28, 2015 at 12:24 pm -      #107

    You are dragging this match down by a combatant who isn’t even a heavy hitter here.

    Which reminds me, is it Ahriman’s MO to sit back and wait for his enemy? Cause that’s definitely the MO for Dyr and Ganondorf- kind of Voldemort too.
    If it’s a legit strategy for all of them, Team Mage could legit hide up and wait for everyone else to fight one another and get tired before just showing up to sweep the remains off the board.

  8. Monochrome July 28, 2015 at 12:25 pm -      #108

    @Pimpmage

    I do believe they already did sometime ago just that it’s being contested now I believe. Anyway for now rooting for Team Magical Beings.

    I apologize but it seems I’ll end up double posting (Next post coming with Gandalf Feats) Also how does one Italicize? Or does it not matter?

  9. pimpmage July 28, 2015 at 12:28 pm -      #109

    So with Ahriman’s illusions, i’m gonna be frank because I think people are taking it too literally. I believe his illusions mess with your minds and make you see things untruthfully. But that doesn’t immediately make you turn on people. There has to be build up to make it believable. If you suddenly appeared somewhere completely different and you are surrounded by unaggressive enemies, you might realize something isn’t right.

    Ahriman is the planning sort to. If something can’t be solved with guile first, he intervenes.

    Mono, there are formatting tricks that work on most forums. It involves .. with /i. I can’t show you without it actually affecting my text. But you can Google it.

  10. Amm0vamp1r3 July 28, 2015 at 12:28 pm -      #110

    Yeah seems like the vamps can’t take this one. When you get into the powers, so im out.

  11. Kitten Lord July 28, 2015 at 12:29 pm -      #111

    @Soul


    “Do you understand why you were wrong to treat it as fact that the blocks were copper? That’s what concerns me.”

    no really, I do not recall us requiring to have actual in-game mention of the material of an object, every object before discussing what it could be made of. And then from there, deducing what it is made of.

    I was close in my deductions, since Brass is similiar colour, has similiar density etc.

    @mea

    ” would really appreciate it if you actually told me and others who this “elder vampire” you speak of”

    Where did I say Kain gained durability from an Elder Vampire?

    “This implied that Kain became more durable after becoming an elder vampire”

    Well yes he did become more durable, but not purely because he does not wear armour. Its something to consider but not the reason.

    “if there were any facts, then we wouldn’t be having this conversation”

    Course we would, people are stubborn even in the face of facts. infact, if you believe facts on the table render argument like this moot, then you must belive your case has a lot of facts for it and so, I should not be argueing.

    “which means his authority of the source supersedes yours ”

    But the source supercedes any conjecture. he is not actually answering questiosn with facts, but his own conjecture. I cannot say how much he knows as an artist unless we were asking him about what programs he used to design and create artwork for the series.

    “As for this new feat, it’s funny. Copper or brass, both are softer than iron. The iron feat is a lot better. Brass is pretty malleable.”

    Its a strength feat. It shows he has a huge amount of strength even with an effortless push.

    “Or Kitten Lord could choose to leave.”

    Or you could stop crusading about it and arguing the same point?

    @Spectral

    ” dev outright says a sequence of events starting with the victim being killed first before its soul is devoured”

    Who said that was a sequence and not what happens at the same time? Because that is what happens at the same time in-game.

    People hit by the reaver have their flesh vaporised and their skeleton remains or dissolves.

    “Kain could be taken down in one hit by the blade,”

    Which is an amazing feat for Kain.

    “And then there’s a certain Elder God who didn’t lose his soul”


    The Elder God is an unusual being of unusual form and origin so whether it has a soul to take is unknown.

    “Why bother to give Kain a regen over time ability if he never gets damaged by anything ever?”

    Its just a power of the vampires. You forget you can be damaged within the gameplay mechanics.

    “he author intent is clear–Kain is not as invincible as you claim him to be.”

    Oh really? when the Authors specifcally retconned the game TWICE to make Kain more powerful? first to have him not be killed, a second time to have him not even be injured by Raziel…

    @Pimp

    Sorry dude but I am perfectly happy for this discussion on durability to be put on hold for this thread. Kain has plenty of other ways to push his team to victory.

  12. pimpmage July 28, 2015 at 12:34 pm -      #112

    Fuck, the direction symbols don’t show up manually either. They are he left and right less than or greater than.

    Thanks for being civil about the kain topic guys. Usually people tell me to fuck off when I try to get the match back on topic.

  13. Spectral Observer July 28, 2015 at 12:42 pm -      #113

    “If you suddenly appeared somewhere completely different and you are surrounded by unaggressive enemies, you might realize something isn’t right.”

    So something like this?
    ===
    youtu.be/HsPqS4IRO7Y
    ===
    This was in Dracul’s throne room, but you don’t see this until 4:35.

    Granted that Dracul wasn’t the intended target, but he was watching through the illusion the whole time.

  14. Monochrome July 28, 2015 at 12:44 pm -      #114

    @Pimpmage

    Fair enough wasn’t quite sure.

    Anyway here’s some Gandalf Feats

    “Energy Projection”
    ‘ I galloped to Weathertop like a gale, and I reached it before sundown on my second day from Bree-and they were there before me. They drew away from me, for they felt the coming of my anger and they dared not face it while the Sun was in the sky. But they closed round at night, and I was besieged on the hill-top, in the old ring of Amon Sûl. I was hard put to it indeed: such light and flame cannot have been seen on Weathertop since the war-beacons of old.’
    (FotR Book 2 Ch. 2)

    ‘here upon Celebdil was a lonely window in the snow, and before it lay a narrow space, a dizzy eyrie above the mists of the world. The sun shone fiercely there, but all below was wrapped in cloud. Out he sprang, and even as I came behind, he burst into new flame. There was none to see, or perhaps in after ages songs would still be sung of the Battle of the Peak.’ Suddenly Gandalf laughed. ‘But what would they say in song? Those that looked up from afar thought that the mountain was crowned with storm. Thunder they heard, and lightning, they said, smote upon Celebdil, and leaped back broken into tongues of fire. Is not that enough? A great smoke rose about us, vapour and steam. Ice fell like rain. I threw down my enemy, and he fell from the high place and broke the mountain-side where he smote it in his ruin. Then darkness took me; and I strayed out of thought and time, and I wandered far on roads that I will not tell.’ (TT Book 1 Ch. 5)

    Gandalf has also resorted to fire- and lightning-based attacks against large numbers of enemies (Hobbit Ch. 4). ”Just at that moment all the lights in the cavern went out, and the great fire went off poof! into a tower of blue glowing smoke, right up to the roof, that scattered piercing white sparks all among the goblins.
    The yells and yammering, croaking, jibbering and jabbering; howls, growls and curses; shrieking and skriking, that followed were beyond description. Several hundred wild cats and wolves being roasted slowly alive together would not have compared with it. The sparks were burning holes in the goblins, and the smoke that now fell from the roof made the air too thick for even their eyes to see through. Soon they were falling over one another and rolling in heaps on the floor, biting and kicking and fighting as if they had all gone mad.’

    ‘He gathered the huge pinecones from the branches of his tree. Then he set one alight with bright blue fire, and threw it whizzing down among the circle of the wolves. It struck one on the back, and immediately his shaggy coat caught fire, and he was leaping to and fro yelping horribly. Then another came and another, one in blue flames, one in red, another in green. They burst on the ground in the middle of the circle and went off in coloured sparks and smoke. A specially large one hit the chief wolf on the nose, and he leaped in the air ten feet, and then rushed round and round the circle biting and snapping even at the other wolves in his anger and fright.
    The dwarves and Bilbo shouted and cheered. The rage of the wolves was terrible to see, and the commotion they made filled all the forest. Wolves are afraid of fire at all times, but this was a most horrible and uncanny fire. If a spark got in their coats it stuck and burned into them, and unless they rolled over quick they were soon all in flames. Very soon all about the glade wolves were rolling over and over to put out the sparks on their backs, while those that were burning were running about howling and setting others alight, till their own friends chased them away and they fled off down the slopes crying and yammering and looking for water.’ (Hobbit Ch. 6)

    ‘In the wavering firelight Gandalf seemed suddenly to grow: he rose up, a great menacing shape like the monument of some ancient king of stone set upon a hill. Stooping like a cloud, he lifted a burning branch and strode to meet the wolves. They gave back before him. High in the air he tossed the blazing brand. It flared with a sudden white radiance like lightning; and his voice rolled like thunder.
    ‘Naur an edraith ammen! Naur dan i ngaurhoth!’ he cried.
    There was a roar and a crackle, and the tree above him burst into a leaf and bloom of blinding flame. The fire leapt from tree-top to tree-top. The whole hill was crowned with dazzling light. The swords and knives of the defenders shone and flickered. The last arrow of Legolas kindled in the air as it flew, and plunged burning into the heart of a great wolf-chieftain. All the others fled.’ (FotR Book 2 Ch. 3)

    Will post more feats in a moment don’t want to make too much of a colossal post.

  15. Friendlysociopath July 28, 2015 at 12:44 pm -      #115

    Ahriman is the planning sort to. If something can’t be solved with guile first, he intervenes

    Well, that seals the Team Mage’s plan most likely; set up shop somewhere complete with illusions and barriers, wait for the other teams to fight one another and then jump the final party.

    If anyone stumbles across them Dyr is more than capable of incapacitating them the second they show up unless they’re resistant to magic; he can BFR you to another dimension, mind control you, bind you so you can’t move or defend yourself, turn you into a harmless animal, petrify you, blind you, absorb your powers, or just magically kill you.

    Also, teleportation won’t work in his presence because he has spells that prevent teleportation- same spell prevents turning ethereal too.

  16. Spectral Observer July 28, 2015 at 12:54 pm -      #116

    Well, damn. Dyrr is enough of a threat by himself. Add in the others and I don’t think team vamp has what it takes.

  17. Monochrome July 28, 2015 at 1:06 pm -      #117

    Well before I continue with my Gandalf Feats what about Team Techno? I’m fairly certain Ultron and The Vision can give a good majority of the low-mid tier people here some issues. We also can’t really forget the T-3000 seeing as how it’s an absolute bitch to put down seeing as nothing but a powerful magnetic force will break it’s own magnetic bonds down. So I’m hoping that we just don’t leave Team Techno behind seeing as how the team with the least chance being only great for close combat and DP for his regeneration.

    Now onto some more Gandalf Feats
    “Affecting Objects”
    Gandalf seems to have a wide variety of vaguely-described abilities that alter or destroy existing objects. He breaks the bridge in Moria (FotR Book 2 Ch. 5)
    ‘At that moment Gandalf lifted his staff, and crying aloud he smote the bridge before him. The staff broke asunder and fell from his hand. A blinding sheet of white flame sprang up. The bridge cracked. Right at the Balrog’s feet it broke, and the stone upon which it stood crashed into the gulf, while the rest remained, poised, quivering like a tongue of rock thrust out into emptiness.’

    earlier he forces the door shut to the Chamber of Mazarbul (FotR Book 2 Ch. 5) ‘But I found myself suddenly faced by something that I have not met before. I could think of nothing to do but to try and put a shutting-spell on the door. I know many; but to do things of that kind rightly requires time, and even then the door can be broken by strength.’

    Even passive spells have a great deal of energy behind them. When he tries to keep the door shut in face of the Balrog’s own magical power (FotR Book 2 Ch. 5) ‘What it was I cannot guess, but I have never felt such a challenge. The counter-spell was terrible. It nearly broke me. For an instant the door left my control and began to open! I had to speak a word of Command. That proved too great a strain. The door burst in pieces. Something dark as a cloud was blocking out all the light inside, and I was thrown backwards down the stairs. All the wall gave way, and the roof of the chamber as well, I think.
    ‘I am afraid Balin is buried deep, and maybe something else is buried there too. I cannot say. But at least the passage behind us was completely blocked.’

    Gandalf is also not above the tactic of targeting his enemy’s weapons (FotR Book 2 Ch. 5) ‘From out of the shadow a red sword leaped flaming.
    Glamdring glittered white in answer.
    There was a ringing clash and a stab of white fire. The Balrog fell back and its sword flew up in molten fragments. The wizard swayed on the bridge, stepped back a pace, and then again stood still.’

    (TT Book 1 Ch. 5) ‘ ‘Saruman!’ cried Gimli, springing towards him with axe in hand. ‘Speak! Tell us where you have hidden our friends! What have you done with them? Speak, or I will make a dint in your hat that even a wizard will find it hard to deal with!’
    The old man was too quick for him. He sprang to his feet and leaped to the top of a large rock. There he stood, grown suddenly tall, towering above them. His hood and his grey rags were flung away. His white garments shone. He lifted up his staff, and Gimli’s axe leaped from his grasp and fell ringing on the ground. The sword of Aragorn, stiff in his motionless hand, blazed with a sudden fire. Legolas gave a great shout and shot an arrow high into the air: it vanished in a flash of flame.’

    (TT Book 1 Ch. 10) ‘He raised his hand, and spoke slowly in a clear cold voice. ‘Saruman, your staff is broken.’ There was a crack, and the staff split asunder in Saruman’s hand, and the head of it fell down at Gandalf’s feet.’ (Staffs were a symbol of power among the Istari so to see Gandalf break Saruman’s Staff is an impressive sight to see)

    One more set of feats to come in just a moment

  18. Friendlysociopath July 28, 2015 at 1:08 pm -      #118

    I’m fairly certain Ultron and The Vision can give a good majority of the low-mid tier people here some issues.

    Oh shit I didn’t see Ultron and Vision the first time around; are they resistant to magic? If they are then I think Team Mage (and everyone else) is totally boned- cause I don’t think anyone has the physical feats for breaking the metal they’re made of- isn’t Vision made of Vibranium?

  19. Amm0vamp1r3 July 28, 2015 at 1:09 pm -      #119

    Can anyone here actually be a threat to Dyrr? Because it doesn’t seem like it. Seems like he solo’s rather casually

  20. pimpmage July 28, 2015 at 1:15 pm -      #120

    Dnd spells are not a be all end all. The is a chance people can be unaffected by the most powerful spells. And there is a chance spells are not casted as efficiently as thought either.

  21. Monochrome July 28, 2015 at 1:18 pm -      #121

    @Friendlysociopath

    Yeah I was wondering why everyone wasn’t flocking to the team techno.

    Finally last set of Gandalf Feats

    “Mental Powers”
    All sentient beings in Middle-earth have the capacity to read and communicate with others mind-to-mind, and to shield themselves from such reading. Gandalf shows the ability to affect others minds on multiple occasions, for example when Aragorn & co. suspect he is Saruman (TT Book 1 Ch. 5) ‘At last the old man broke the silence. ‘Well met indeed, my friends,’ he said in a soft voice. ‘I wish to speak to you. Will you come down or shall I come up?’ Without waiting for an answer he began to climb.
    ‘Now!’ said Gimli. ‘Stop him, Legolas!’
    ‘Did I not say that I wished to speak to you?’ said the old man. ‘Put away that bow, Master Elf!’
    The bow and arrow fell from Legolas’ hands, and his arms hung loose at his sides.
    ‘And you, Master Dwarf, pray take your hand from your axe-haft, till I am up! You will not need such arguments.’
    Gimli started and then stood still as stone, staring, while the old man sprang up the rough steps as nimbly as a goat. All weariness seemed to have left him. As he stepped up on to the shelf there was a gleam, too brief for certainty, a quick glint of white, as if some garment shrouded by the grey rags had been for an instant revealed The intake of Gimli’s breath could be heard as a loud hiss in the silence’

    He also has defensive power, shown by protecting Frodo from Sauron’s mind (FotR Book 2 Ch. 10) ‘And suddenly he felt the Eye. There was an eye in the Dark Tower that did not sleep. He knew that it had become aware of his gaze. A fierce eager will was there. It leaped towards him; almost like a finger he felt it, searching for him. Very soon it would nail him down, know just exactly where he was. Amon Lhaw it touched. It glanced upon Tol Brandir he threw himself from the seat, crouching, covering his head with his grey hood.
    He heard himself crying out: Never, never! Or was it: Verily I come, I come to you? He could not tell. Then as a flash from some other point of power there came to his mind another thought: Take it off! Take it off! Fool, take it off! Take off the Ring!
    The two powers strove in him. For a moment, perfectly balanced between their piercing points, he writhed, tormented. Suddenly he was aware of himself again. Frodo, neither the Voice nor the Eye: free to choose, and with one remaining instant in which to do so. He took the Ring off his finger. He was kneeling in clear sunlight before the high seat. A black shadow seemed to pass like an arm above him; it missed Amon Hen and groped out west, and faded. Then all the sky was clean and blue and birds sang in every tree.’

    “Other”
    Gandalf is more powerful (or less restricted) as the White than as the Grey. Tolkien himself confirms this (Letter #156) ‘The ‘wizards’, as such, had failed; or if you like: the crisis had become too grave and needed an enhancement of power. So Gandalf sacrificed himself, was accepted, and enhanced, and returned. ‘Yes, that was the name. I was Gandalf.’ Of course he remains similar in personality and idiosyncrasy, but both his wisdom and power are much greater. When he speaks he commands attention; the old Gandalf could not have dealt so with Théoden, nor with Saruman.’

    That’s it for the Gandalf Feats, may pick up feats for someone need to recheck the team roster.

  22. Friendlysociopath July 28, 2015 at 1:25 pm -      #122

    The is a chance people can be unaffected by the most powerful spells.

    Yeah, but isn’t that our equivalent of asking for resistance against that sort of thing?
    Dominate Person – Will negates
    So we ask if they have feats for fighting off mind control attacks right?

    Considering he’ll have the mind-raping Voldemort at his side, people are going to have a hell of a time resisting any spell involved in will saves.

    And there is a chance spells are not casted as efficiently as thought either.

    I mean, you have a stated spell list for a character; if someone teleports into a room you’d figure he’d use the spell that exists solely to stop them from doing it anymore. Followed by a spell to remove/stop/kill them. That’s why I keep listing all the stuff he can do, picking one over the other will not make a great difference in the greater scheme of things if the enemy has no way of dealing with them.

    Yeah I was wondering why everyone wasn’t flocking to the team techno.

    Well it does depend on magical resistance- it would of course, seeing as the targets are a team of mages. I doubt anyone thought the mages were going to physically beat up their enemies.

  23. Nsl98 July 28, 2015 at 1:33 pm -      #123

    Well it does depend on magical resistance- it would of course, seeing as the targets are a team of mages. I doubt anyone thought the mages were going to physically beat up their enemies.

    Does Ultron tanking Thor’s lightning in AoU count as resisting magic?

  24. Shadow-Knight July 28, 2015 at 1:48 pm -      #124

    @Friendly

    “Well it does depend on magical resistance- it would of course, seeing as the targets are a team of mages. I doubt anyone thought the mages were going to physically beat up their enemies.”

    Well, I know the Terminator hasn’t faced any magic before so I couldn’t say; however, I believe we could assume that it, ultron, and possibly the Vision would be able to see through any illusions due to their nature of being machines and thus are probably immune to magics that target organic minds.

  25. Friendlysociopath July 28, 2015 at 1:58 pm -      #125

    I believe we could assume that it, ultron, and possibly the Vision would be able to see through any illusions due to their nature of being machines and thus are probably immune to magics that target organic minds.

    I’m not sure about Ahriman’s illusions- but illusions in D&D are holograms, not mental tricks.

    I wish we had more feats for Voldemort, he’s such a dead-leg dammit.

    Does Ultron tanking Thor’s lightning in AoU count as resisting magic?

    Thor’s lightning is natural lightning isn’t it? He uses magic to bring it but it’s normal lightning?
    I might be wrong, comics aren’t my thing.

  26. Shadow-Knight July 28, 2015 at 2:06 pm -      #126

    Haven’t played D & D so I don’t know much about it.

  27. Spectral Observer July 28, 2015 at 2:56 pm -      #127

    Doesn’t MCU Thor also summon lightning through Mjolnir? Pretty sure that would make it magical lightning.

  28. Nsl98 July 28, 2015 at 3:24 pm -      #128

    I might be wrong, comics aren’t my thing.

    In the comics its magic.

    I’m not sure about MCU, which is why I was asking.

  29. Monochrome July 28, 2015 at 3:49 pm -      #129

    I’m kind of curious about Lord Vile (Seeing as he has a God Killing sword I assume he’s a magical being with lots of magical fire power at his command) So anybody know about him till I can find a source material referral for him?

  30. Kitten Lord July 28, 2015 at 3:55 pm -      #130

    What is Dyrs MO? Any quotes posted on that?

    As for these machines, this is movie versions. What are their physical feats?

  31. Soulerous July 28, 2015 at 3:55 pm -      #131

    no really
    -It’s pretty simple. You said “we know its copper” and “logic indicates it is copper” and you were wrong. This margin of error is exactly what we’re supposed to avoid, which is exactly why we require feats rather than assumptions- which is exactly what it being copper was. An assumption.
    ~
    I do not recall us requiring to have actual in-game mention of the material of an object, every object before discussing what it could be made of.
    -When something is obviously stone, or wood, or whatever it may be, it doesn’t need to be mentioned that it’s stone or wood. But what kind of stone or wood it is does need to be mentioned/displayed, or else we go with the low-end.
    ~
    If the material in question doesn’t have an obvious type (mineral, wood, metallic, etc.) that just means the range of possibilities is larger. The same thing applies: We can’t claim a high-end (like copper) rather than a low-end without proof. Because it can easily result in an inflated feat. That’s why you were wrong to say it’s copper. So now you know.

  32. Kitten Lord July 28, 2015 at 4:17 pm -      #132

    @Soul

    “which is exactly why we require feats rather than assumptions-”

    Feats are better but we assume things all the time about what things are made of. What I was doing was no different, it looks like copper. A metal that has a colour like that, what its used for etc, things added up. True it was brass because they are quite similar as I said earlier. I guess I did not think of brass.

    “-When something is obviously stone, or wood, or whatever it may be, it doesn’t need to be mentioned that it’s stone or wood.”

    And this was obviously not stone or wood. Which is why I looked up metals and found out copper was used commonly for air pressure. Considering at the time I had not considered brass, fair play but brass covers everything I was going towards for copper. I even admitted brass was similiar in colour.

    “We can’t claim a high-end (like copper) rather than a low-end without proof. ”

    There was no chance of a low end, it was either Brass or Copper, both have similiar densities.

    Anyway, the end result is that Kains strength goes up. As does his pressure output using the reaver.

    I am betting 100 petapascals of pressure would make short work of anything on contact. Even the machines.

  33. Soulerous July 28, 2015 at 4:21 pm -      #133

    What I was doing was no different, it looks like copper.
    -Whether it was different or not, it wasn’t valid. If you’ve seen that level of assuming done in other places that doesn’t mean they were valid either.

  34. Kitten Lord July 28, 2015 at 4:24 pm -      #134

    Ill remember that the next time someone “assumes” anything about what something is made of and remember to msg you about it. Then you can nag until there is a clear line for every material known in fiction in every scene.

  35. Rookie July 28, 2015 at 4:29 pm -      #135

    @Kitten Lord

    “What is Dyrs MO? Any quotes posted on that? ”

    ““Don’t begin to believe our own ruse, granddaughter,” Dyrr said. “Not everything has gone strictly to plan, but all is far from lost, and we are far from trapped. We were meant to be in the city, and here we are. The two of us are in our own temple, unmolested. We have lost troops and the odd consort and cousin, but we live, and our assets are largely intact. Our ‘new friends’ as you call them, have the city hard under siege, and many of the Houses refuse to join the fight—join it in any real way, at least. All we have to do is keep pressing, keep pressing, keep pressing, and we will win the day. I grant you that it is an inconvenience that Gromph escaped my little snare. I do wonder how he managed it. But I assure you it will be the last time I underestimate the Archmage of Menzoberranzan.”

    “Dyrr simply shrugged off the meaningless exchange. He began to cast a series of protective spells on himself, ignoring a few more tiresome minutes of Yasraena and Nimor’s verbal scuffling. Dyrr blinked after having cast on himself a spell that would make unseen things visible to him. Nimor looked different but in ways that seemed incongruous, even impossible. The drow assassin was no drow, as Dyrr had know for some time, but for the first time Dyrr could see something that might have been wings.

    The lichdrow let that matter fall to the side in favor of a series of carefully crafted contingencies. After all, Dyrr himself wasn’t exactly a drow anymore either. If Nimor was something else than a drow, so be it—as long as the dark assassin remained useful.”

    ““Will House Agrach Dyrr be evacuated from Menzoberranzan,” she asked Nimor, “should things not go the lichdrow’s way?”

    Dyrr struck her. The slap echoed in the Spartan sitting room, and Yasraena fell in an undignified heap onto the worg-carpeted floor. The lich took some of her life-force with the slap—only a taste, but enough to turn her gray and leave her gasping for breath. She looked up at him from the floor with wide, terrified eyes.

    Matron mother indeed, Dyrr thought.”

    ““If I believe you are soon to fall,” Nimor said to Dyrr, “I will rescue you.”

    Dyrr wanted in that moment to kill Nimor Imphraezl, but he didn’t. Instead, he laughed. He was still laughing as he teleported away.”

  36. Kitten Lord July 28, 2015 at 4:39 pm -      #136

    So do we know what Dyr usually has memorised? What spells does he have access to? I imagine this has been mentioned so just tell me the post number in this thread and I will have a look if so.

    The advantage he has over Szass Tam in the other thread is that in this match the mages start away from their potentially attackers, giving him plenty of time to “buff up”, minutes? maybe, I do not know how long it would take for the vampires for instance to teleport, fly, mist form or w/e throughout the citadel.

  37. Rookie July 28, 2015 at 4:49 pm -      #137

    @Kitten Lord

    “So do we know what Dyr usually has memorised?”

    Tons of stuff. BFR magic (at least two different spells), transmutation into gigant, several hundreds lesser spells in his artifacts, several defences spells in his armour, small shield of devil which fly around him and blocking attacks, several spells which is used to break enemy magical artifacts. Also spells to identify enemy artifacts no doubt. And to locate enemy too (he was able to casually find Gromph in his secret pocket dimension). As all DnD mages go Dyrr is very paranoid (although he hides it very well) so he tries to have spells for every possible outcome he can imagine. He is also always ready to admit his mistakes (even in front of others) and learn from them.

  38. Kitten Lord July 28, 2015 at 4:59 pm -      #138

    What is transmutation into gigant?

  39. Rookie July 28, 2015 at 5:12 pm -      #139

    @Kitten Lord

    “What is transmutation into gigant?”

    His almost last trump card (because he was able to fight even after Lolth busted him out of this form). www.realmshelps.net/monsters/block/Blackstone_Gigant in this form he is losing all his defences spells and ability to cast any new spells for black Blackstone Gigant form.

    “Gromph sighed. He knew what it was that Dyrr had turned himself into.

    Under normal circumstances, a blackstone gigant was a construct, created by priestesses of any number of dark faiths to be used as servants, guardians, assassins, or instruments of war. Carved from solid blocks of stone, they were formidable creatures that could destroy a whole city if left unchecked. What Dyrr had done was change his form from his normally thin, aged drow frame to the form of a gigant. In the process he had become, for all intents and purposes, that new creature.”

    His touch can turn others intio stone and he is nearly invincible for everything in this form (he turned Gromph into stone statue because Gromph could not find any spell or weapon what could work against Dyrr. It took godness to bust Dyrr outh of this state).
    Gigant is walking adamantine. But still crazy fast for his size.

    Also wish spell right after Dyrr was busted from his gigant state, so he still have some powerful spells in store just in case gigant falls:

    “Before Gromph could finish his spell—one meant to burn the already wounded lich once more—Dyrr whispered something the archmage couldn’t quite hear, and the spell took effect. The skull sapphire burned red-hot against Gromph’s forehead, and he reached up to throw it off him—but it disintegrated before he could touch it. The dust that fell over the archmage’s face was dull gray and powerless. There would be no more protection from the skull sapphire and no more stored necromancies. Gromph knew it had taken a wish to destroy it.

    His own spell ruined, Gromph brought another to mind and said, “Well, everyone’s using the big spells today, aren’t we?””

  40. Kitten Lord July 28, 2015 at 5:16 pm -      #140

    Thanks.

    here is a source;

    www.realmshelps.net/npc/dyrr.shtml

  41. Rookie July 28, 2015 at 5:17 pm -      #141

    Also found this: www.realmshelps.net/npc/dyrr.shtml . Kitten Lord found it first though)
    He knows limited wish, plane shift, imprisonment, wish.
    Damn is he dangerous.

  42. Friendlysociopath July 28, 2015 at 5:22 pm -      #142

    What is transmutation into gigant?

    Essentially he turns into a giant stone golem that is immune to magic.

    For a general Dyr rundown check post #31
    Added to those, as a Wizard he also has access to other spells; though he’s primarily a Sorcerer.
    And he can drop a field of darkness that can’t be lit by light and even infrared vision cannot pierce by virtue of being Drow.
    And apparently he can read minds.

    Damn is he dangerous.

    As a rule, Dungeons and Dragon named Mages are either BAMFs or totally worthless.

    Kitten Lord found it first though

    2nd, that’s what I used for comment 31. Didn’t post the link though.

  43. Kitten Lord July 28, 2015 at 5:25 pm -      #143

    @Friendly

    “Essentially he turns into a giant stone golem that is immune to magic”

    Where does it say immune to magic? in the piece Rookie gave me it just has a little elemental resistance.

    So he can only cast a limited number o his better spells.

  44. Rookie July 28, 2015 at 5:25 pm -      #144

    @Friendlysociopath

    And also Dyrr knows plane shift and imprisonment (which is one hit death for anything on other teams). His ranking among DnD mages strangely low. I understand that he wants to keep low profile, but still. How could he manage to gain such knowledge and reamain relatively unknown?

  45. Kitten Lord July 28, 2015 at 5:30 pm -      #145

    Imprisonment is not death, its more like BFR and time stop combined. But willpower negates.

    Plane shift has the same weaknesses. They are both also “on touch”….so…this may be a chance/luck based mechanic.

  46. Friendlysociopath July 28, 2015 at 5:38 pm -      #146

    Where does it say immune to magic?

    See where it says “SR 32″?
    That stands for Spell Resistance; 32 is a high score for that. Most people and monsters have exactly 0 SR.
    32 is very hard to beat, because you roll a d20 and add your level- if you don’t succeed, the spell will do nothing to it. Which is why I alternate between saying “borderline immune” and “immune”. It is very, very hard to beat that SR.

    And also Dyrr knows plane shift and imprisonment

    I did say BFR was an option 😀
    Especially with Voldemort attacking their minds to compromise their will saves.

    How could he manage to gain such knowledge and reamain relatively unknown?

    Well he’s a Drow firstly, so he’s just outright not going to be known by as many people compared to say Elminster or the Simbul.

  47. Soulerous July 28, 2015 at 5:46 pm -      #147

    Ill remember that the next time someone “assumes” anything about what something is made of and remember to msg you about it.
    -No need to message me. Just do it right and we won’t run into problems like inflating feats or the burden of proof fallacy.
    ~
    Then you can nag
    -Or you can have a bad attitude toward doing things the right way. I’m trying to help you understand how things work here. You don’t have to throw it in my face the way you do the words “trickster” and “troll.”

  48. Soulerous July 28, 2015 at 6:04 pm -      #148

    That stands for Spell Resistance; 32 is a high score for that.
    -There’s not a way to quantify that, though. Classic game mechanics. Does he make any significant appearances in novels that show it?

  49. Friendlysociopath July 28, 2015 at 6:18 pm -      #149

    Does he make any significant appearances in novels that show it?

    I think Rookie has the actual novel that it happens in; you’ll have to ask him.

    Classic game mechanics.

    Well yeah, but we can equate it fairly easily to “Does the person have feats of penetrating magical-protection”? At a minimum anyways.

    I’ll just point out, again, that it actually took a Dungeons and Dragons God (Lolth) to knock him out of that shape. Miracle was described as “The power to wipe the life from a small planet”. That’s the level of power than had to be used to stop his Blackstone Gigant form. Nobody here (to my knowledge) has magic that comes anywhere near that.

  50. Soulerous July 28, 2015 at 6:43 pm -      #150

    That sounds like solo potential.

  51. Kitten Lord July 28, 2015 at 6:44 pm -      #151

    @Soul

    ” I’m trying to help you understand how things work here.”

    Thing is that is not the way things work. Like I said people assume things all the time. And ill make sure to tell you when it happens again. Hopefully every creator of fiction will write down what every material is made of in every scan…

    @Friendly

    ” I’m trying to help you understand how things work here.”

    Yeah despite how I see Soul, I agree with him on that one. Mechanics….

  52. Soulerous July 28, 2015 at 7:27 pm -      #152

    Thing is that is not the way things work.
    -Yes it is. This is not up for debate, not even a little. That’s how we do things on BankGambling, period. You ignoring and denying that is why you have so much opposition.
    ~
    Like I said people assume things all the time.
    -That is not an argument. If you’re trying to use it as one, then you have a bandwagon fallacy.
    ~
    We are to respect the burden of proof at all times.

  53. Friendlysociopath July 28, 2015 at 7:27 pm -      #153

    That sounds like solo potential.

    He kind of already was, most of his team is not overly relevant; Voldemort barely has the RT to deal with anyone and Ganondorf has thus far been unremarked upon except being hard to kill.

    Mechanics….

    It’s just as easy as “will save negates”. If people have feats for resisting mind-rape, then they can make a will save vs spells that attack the mind.
    If people have feats for penetrating magical barriers or something- then that would defeat SR. If they had a spell that rivaled Miracle, then that would bypass the Spell Resistance.

    It’s not mechanics because outright Spell Immunity is a thing; if that were the case then whatever had that would be outright unable to have magic used on it. Instead, we lower it to the next best thing, magical protection.

  54. Mea quidem sententia July 28, 2015 at 7:33 pm -      #154

    Kitten Lord #111
    It doesn’t matter if it’s Daniel’s own “conjecture.” This must be the stubbornness you’re speaking of. Kain’s skin is chitinous. There’s nothing more to discuss. If you want to disagree with that, so be it. Just don’t forget to mention that in future discussions among other people who aren’t familiar with your arguments. It would be lying by omission.

    Friendlysociopath #149
    Actually, we shouldn’t assume it’s a game mechanic like Kitten Lord assumes. There’s nothing to suggest this. Rather, what we see occur in game play should be an indicator of the fact that the developers intended for characters like Kain to be able to succumb to death through injuries. Blood drinking works on this concept.

    legacyofkain.wikia.com/wiki/Blood

    Read especially the footnotes at the very bottom for more details.

  55. Kitten Lord July 28, 2015 at 7:47 pm -      #155

    @Soul

    “That’s how we do things on BankGambling, ”

    What rule states the material of an object has to be specifically stated before we can gauge what it is regardless of how it looks ,acts etc? Where does it say this?

    @Friendly

    “It’s not mechanics because outright Spell Immunity is a thing”

    Its not true immunity, its a numerical value that is “hard” for dice rolls to get past within the game. If it actually said “immune to all spells period” then that is fair enough.

    @mea

    Not sure what Kains “skin” is, chintinous? maybe, he also refers to Kains skin as “armoured plates” as well. honestly I do not care, it does not change any of my arguments or standings.

  56. Friendlysociopath July 28, 2015 at 7:48 pm -      #156

    @Mea
    What? I said game mechanics for Spell Resistance- and gave a decent translation for how we do things here. Pierce anti-magic barriers.

    I agree with Kain needing blood to survive, I’ve played the games- I know how vampires works in that universe. And I know Kain is harmed by humans when he’s in combat with them. He does not regen instantly and the wounds do add up. He is not invincible.

    I briefly converted to KL’s side when I first came here because I believed that a calc trumped everything else- I have since learned otherwise and am defending canon instead of calcs.
    Kain is hurt by humans when they strike him; it causes him physical pain and loss of blood.

    Legacy of Kain is a series where they attempted to make the health bar less “game” and more “lore”. So they reference blood, Raziel’s spiritual energy, and so on.

  57. Soulerous July 28, 2015 at 7:57 pm -      #157

    What rule states the material of an object has to be specifically stated before we can gauge what it is regardless of how it looks ,acts etc?
    -I am talking about Burden of Proof. Because if any of multiple possibilities could be true, none of the possibilities have satisfied the burden of proof. If they had, they would be the only possibility.
    ~
    You speculated that the blocks were copper. You said we knew this was true.
    ~
    You were wrong.
    ~
    If the burden of proof had been satisfied you would have been right.
    ~
    And so I am telling you that the philosophy exists- and we obey it- so that these instances where a feat would turn out to be wrong due to an assumption do not occur.

  58. Mea quidem sententia July 28, 2015 at 7:58 pm -      #158

    @Kitten Lord #156
    It changes your argument concerning pressure. I only saw Daniel describe the skin as “hardened to an armor”, “not made up of scales.” “Chitinous refers to the exoskeletal nature of his skin. The scaly part was in reference to the actual texture of his skin not what it’s made up of.”

    @Friendlysociopath #157
    Oh. I thought you were agreeing with the idea that Kain’s injuries were nothing more than a game mechanic.

  59. Kitten Lord July 28, 2015 at 8:14 pm -      #159

    @Friendly

    “Kain is hurt by humans when they strike him; it causes him physical pain and loss of blood”

    Your using in-game mechanics now? New low…

    @Soul

    ” if any of multiple possibilities could be true, ”

    This is required. There have to be known multiple possibilities.

    “And so I am telling you that the philosophy exists- and we obey it-”

    You keep saying “we”, a lot of people on BankGambling rely on fallacies like a fish does water. In a perfect scenario perhaps finding all the facts for what things are made of is great but not all fictions actually say in text.

    You kept asking for something that “proves” it was copper then you brought up daft reasoning for it being something else. I did admit when I looked up bronze it could be that if you recall.

    I hope you could see where you went wrong by trying to bring up things it “could not be” as an example of possibilities.

    Beyond Raziel telling us the facts. Looking at something and determining what it is from what we know is often the best we can do. Often if it looks like a duck, sounds like a duck then its a duck.

    @Mea

    “It changes your argument concerning pressure”

    not at all dear boy. What makes you think so?

  60. Friendlysociopath July 28, 2015 at 8:21 pm -      #160

    Your using in-game mechanics now?

    When mechanics are used as canon then yes, I will use them as canon. Same as MC’s energy shield and Pit’s health bar.
    Humans hit Kain, Kain is hurt and loses blood.
    Kain restores blood by draining it from people.
    Kain is healed by the blood.
    It’s very simple, and corroborates with all canon.

  61. Kitten Lord July 28, 2015 at 8:44 pm -      #161

    @Friendly

    All you did was describing game play mechanics.

    That is like saying Kratos or Dante lose health and restore themselves by using health orbs or globes.

    “It’s very simple, and corroborates with all canon.”

    It does not because no human has canonically injured Kain. You would have to prove this to be the case, but since only player choice and error can lead to kain being hit, you cannot say a human can hurt him. And further, it being in-game brings up countless mechanics like difficulty, balance and fun for the player.

    Same reason why plenty characters in-game can be hurt when they should not or survive more than they should in canon. Soldiers in action games that are supposed to be set in a realistic modern battlefield can tank bullets, many of them and then magically heal over time depending on settings for example.

    Kratos and Dante can tank a lot more in cutscenes, just like Kain can than they can from the weak mooks in their games.

    Mechanics are rife in action hack and slashes. And all the gameplay garbage is thrown aside compared to the lore, which says Kain is struck by as much as petapascals of pressure.

  62. Friendlysociopath July 28, 2015 at 8:55 pm -      #162

    That is like saying Kratos or Dante lose health and restore themselves by using health orbs or globes.

    Because them losing health is not referenced in canon by them or enemies.

    Soldiers in action games that are supposed to be set in a realistic modern battlefield can tank bullets, many of them and then magically heal over time depending on settings for example.

    Because them losing health is not referenced in canon by them or enemies.
    Are you seeing a trend yet?

    And all the gameplay garbage is thrown aside

    It’s not all gameplay though is it? Multiple characters in the series mention blood and how it heals wounds they accumulate, Kain among them. That is canon sir, something that you can’t refute or dance around.

  63. Mea quidem sententia July 28, 2015 at 9:07 pm -      #163

    @Kitten Lord #159
    Kain’s skin is chitinous. Chitin is that kind of hardy exoskeleton on the outside of an arthropod, insect, or crustacean.

    As for no human having never canonically injuring Kain, you don’t know that as much as anyone else. The fact is, the developers made it clear that Kain relies on blood. Umah says to Kain, “If you are wounded, seek out blood to restore your vitality.”

    Your argument is like saying that no video game character has ever been injured because it’s not canonically so. What is canonical is the fact that the developers intended for characters like Raziel and Kain to be capable of succumbing to death through injury.

    “As Kain takes damage, his blood decreases and conversely, as Kain drinks blood, his life force increases. [. . .] Please note that blood is constantly being used and the blood meter gradually decreases over time.” – Blood Omen 2 manual, p. 17.

    “This gauge is a globe of blood, which is depleted when Kain is wounded or as his hunger grows.” – Defiance manual, p. 12

    You’re not persuading anyone by lying, Kitten Lord. I don’t expect to change your mind, but I really am glad no one else is deceived.

  64. Kitten Lord July 28, 2015 at 9:18 pm -      #164

    @Friendly

    “Because them losing health is not referenced in canon by them or enemies.”

    “Because them losing health is not referenced in canon by them or enemies.
    Are you seeing a trend yet?”

    ” Multiple characters in the series mention blood and how it heals wounds they accumulate, Kain among them. ”

    How does them saying drinking blood heals them proves they have actually been injured? And more specifically, injured by humans?

    The same was true when Kain was a newborn vampire centuries ago. For all you know Kain is refering to that point. Vampires also drink blood for strength, lore etc. Its like food.

    I cannot for the life of me recall Kain ever saying “i need blood to heal!”

  65. Kitten Lord July 28, 2015 at 9:30 pm -      #165

    @mea

    “Your argument is like saying that no video game character has ever been injured because it’s not canonically so. What is canonical is the fact that the developers intended for characters like Raziel and Kain to be capable of succumbing to death through injury.”

    They actually say in the Q/E they cannot die through injury. If you read Daniels comments if you want to rely on some of his conjecture he also says Kain literally cannot be killed by anything but the Soul reaver through the heart.

    “You’re not persuading anyone by lying, Kitten Lord”

    Where did I lie? I have proven the ridiculous forces Raziel outputs even with minor slaps, I have covered the forces he works with, and how he strikes Kain. This by itself gives Kain immunity to human weapons and blows.

    The manuel saying you can be wounded in-game and what to do to heal if you are is the same you can find in any manuel. Of course your not invincible in-game.

    It does not actually say Kain was ever wounded by a human.

  66. pimpmage July 28, 2015 at 9:37 pm -      #166

    Aaaaaand were back to discussing kain. I hate you all.

  67. LadyRamkin July 28, 2015 at 9:39 pm -      #167

    “I hate you all.”

    And we love you too, you grouchy little sex peddler

  68. Kara Zor-El July 28, 2015 at 9:46 pm -      #168

    “It does not actually say Kain was ever wounded by a human.”
    _
    But it does state that Blood Drain is a different ability to TK. So all your TK talk doesn’t mean squat. It’s not the same ability.

  69. Friendlysociopath July 28, 2015 at 9:48 pm -      #169

    Aaaaaand were back to discussing kain.

    Blame Kitten, it’s what I do- I find it works extremely well.

    I hate you all.

    In my defense, I do not know most of these characters so I can’t argue for or against them if I wanted to.
    I’ve played LoK quite a bit, which is why I know about Kain and Raziel.
    I play D&D and read the books, which is how I know of Dyr.
    I read LotR and watch the movies, which is how I know of Gandalf.
    I’ve read the Harry Potter books, which is how I know of Voldemort.
    And I have played Skyrim, which is how I know of the Dragonborn.

    Kain and Raziel are not the unstoppable force Kitten makes them out to be.
    Dyr is a D&D mage, meaning he is OP. End of story. D&D novels all admit that mages can fuck the world over and they couldn’t do much about it except have their own mages. Mages = Nukes for D&D.
    Gandalf is largely featless and implied power.
    Voldemort is not featless but is woefully screwed by Rowling not being able to write magical combat without sparklers.
    And the Dragonborn is not featless but is without sufficient feats to take almost everyone here on.

  70. AbsoluteZero July 28, 2015 at 9:50 pm -      #170

    “Aaaaaand were back to discussing kain. ”

    *wipes away a tear* And i’ve just been trying to make Voldemort relevant. I’m doing my best dammit!

  71. Mea quidem sententia July 28, 2015 at 9:51 pm -      #171

    @Kitten Lord #165
    Do you have a source for this? I’d like to read it.

    Kain doesn’t have that durability because chitin or chitinous materials aren’t that ridiculous, otherwise carbon nanotubes would be irrelevant and science would be fixated on chitin.

    The manual does not say you can be wounded in-game. It tells you that you can be wounded. Even Umah says so himself. You’re just continuing with your ad hoc, which isn’t going to help you because that’s all you’ve been relying on.

    It doesn’t need to say that. There are humans in Defiance who can actually harm Kain. It’s a nice, general statement that anyone is applicable.

  72. Mea quidem sententia July 28, 2015 at 10:09 pm -      #172

    I’ll leave this Kain nonsense out of this for now and promote Kain a different way. Does anyone think that using inspire hate would cause the mages to fight each other? I don’t think Ganondorf would be affected by it, simply because he seems to feed off hatred.

  73. Friendlysociopath July 28, 2015 at 10:15 pm -      #173

    Does anyone think that using inspire hate would cause the mages to fight each other?

    Some have feats for resisting mental attacks like that; Ganondorf likes hatred, Voldemort has confirmed Occlumency, and I doubt Kain has feats to trump Ahriman and Dyrr’s mental powers- especially Ahriman if he’s half as impressive as Pimp makes out 40K psykers to be.

  74. LadyRamkin July 28, 2015 at 10:15 pm -      #174

    Imma side with whatever team has Ganondorf.

  75. pimpmage July 28, 2015 at 10:21 pm -      #175

    Inspire hate? Is that a dnd spell? Mages by nature are capable of combating magic. Psykers are no different. In fact, psykers are the most useful way of taking out other psykers in 40k.

    “especially Ahriman if he’s half as impressive as Pimp makes out 40K psykers to be.”

    Ahriman is the most powerful unit on in the tabletop games too. He is also the second most expensive unit in the entirety of the game. Just short of Abbadon. According to the tabletop, he is capable of spamming dozens of spells a turn, more than any other psyker in tabletop.

  76. AbsoluteZero July 28, 2015 at 10:23 pm -      #176

    I had a dream.

    A dream of a world where Voldemort was actively useful.

    A dream where he wasn’t kept to human reaction times, and speeds.

    A dream where his spells weren’t flashy, slower bullets.

    A dream where he had useful damn feats.

    And in this dream, he’d scourged the land of all life, and crushed the competition beneath his python.

    Outside of this dream, he’s only got a few points of usefulness. Being able to rapidly teleport, cast the killing curse, and legilimency, allowing him to mind-rape people.

    Can you imagine what he’d be like without the restrictions? He’d actually be useful. And deadly.

  77. LadyRamkin July 28, 2015 at 10:26 pm -      #177

    This is TP Ganondorf correct? I believe that somebody somewhere said that Ganondorf was the source of the shadow crystal that turned Link into a wolf. If Ganondorf can make more of them, then he can effectively neutralise every combatant here.

    TP Ganondorf is one of the current incarnations of OoT Ganondorf, so he gets all OoT ganondorfs feats right?

    Would he also get WW Ganondorf and aLttP Ganondorfs feats since they are the same guy…. ish. Well…. not aLttP he was full triforce enhanced, but WW Ganondorf at least.
    – – –
    @AbsoluteZero

    To make Voldermort useful… to make any Harry potter wizard useful all you would have to do, is give them the common sense of…. the average BankGamblingr. Then they would rule not only the world but also most of the galaxy.

  78. pimpmage July 28, 2015 at 10:27 pm -      #178

    *most powerful psyker unit. Just short of abbadon.

  79. Friendlysociopath July 28, 2015 at 10:32 pm -      #179

    Inspire hate? Is that a dnd spell?

    No mang, we’re still on Kain 😀

    Ahriman is the most powerful unit on in the tabletop games too.

    In that case, it seems like most of Team Mage has ways of dealing with Inspire Hate.

    This is TP Ganondorf correct?

    (Checks OP to be sure he’s not wrong) Yes, it’s Twilight Princess Ganondorf.

    Would he also get WW Ganondorf and aLttP Ganondorfs feats since they are the same guy…. ish.

    Are they the same guy? If yes then yeah, I can’t see why the feats wouldn’t carry over.

    To make Voldermort useful

    Rowling had people being useful, she had real magic in her universe. Then she couldn’t figure out how to write with magic and turned everything into sparklers that had effects.
    Case in point, avada kedavra.

  80. AbsoluteZero July 28, 2015 at 10:36 pm -      #180

    “To make Voldermort useful… to make any Harry potter wizard useful all you would have to do, is give them the common sense of…. the average BankGamblingr. Then they would rule not only the world but also most of the galaxy.”

    In that regards, Voldemorts only real flaw is that he consistantly calls bullshit on ‘the power of love’ actually being useful. I kind’ve agree with him there. The fact that that’s literally the reason he’s consistantly foiled, turns him into a care bears villain.

    “Rowling had people being useful, she had real magic in her universe. Then she couldn’t figure out how to write with magic and turned everything into sparklers that had effects.
    Case in point, avada kedavra”

    Oh, I know. Avada Kedavra literally started as just being a green flash of light. But was turned into a slow, green bolt. Making it infinitely worse, and significantly nerfing Voldemort into the ground.

  81. LadyRamkin July 28, 2015 at 10:39 pm -      #181

    “Are they the same guy?”

    Yeah.

    Adult timeline – OoT Ganondorf is defeated and sealed in the sacred realm, he breaks out (which should be a feat) and goes on to become the Ganondorf of windwaker

    Child timeline – OoT Ganondorf gets arrested by theHylian royal family. He is taken to be executed breaks out and is sealed in the twilight realm and becomes TP Ganondorf

    Decline Timeline – Ganondorf defeats link and gains the full triforce he is still sealed in the sacred realm which becomes the darkworld, and ganondorf becomes ganon the demon king.

    Decline ganon feats should maybe be ignored since he is specifically enhanced by the full triforce and the other two are not.
    – – –
    Actually, what is interesting, is that WW Ganondorf with only the triforce of power, managed to escape from the sacred realm and he was grievously wounded by Link.

    aLttP Ganon had the full triforce AND defeated Link but still could not escape from the sacred realm on his own.

    Though i suppose, the whole point of aLttp is that he is currently escaping, and you have to stop him…

    @Absolute zero
    If you want to see some of the failings of harry potter you should look at the Percy Jackson vs Hogwarts match.

  82. LadyRamkin July 28, 2015 at 11:19 pm -      #182

    OoT Ganondorf has some impressive magical feats.
    He created a monster that sucked the life out of the deku tree, whom i believe is a guardian deity.

    He also cast a curse on the lost woods that prevented the Deku sprout from growing.

    He Revived an entire species of fire breathing exploding dinosaur monsters, and an ancient evil goron eating dragon.

    He froze the entirety of the Zora’s domain.

    Drained an entire lake

    Released Bongo Bongo from its seal in the well.

    Destroyed the entirety of Hyrule castle town

    He somhow also prevented the awkening of the new sages.

    He also created Phantom ganon whom has strange reality warping powers

    OoT Ganondorf seems to have an affinity for curses and revival. All of those are feats that TP Ganondorf should definitely be capable of.

    Something i find interesting is that Ganondorf never attempted to interfere with the great fairies.

    Whearas Majora Literally tore them into pieces and scattered those pieces so that they could not reform. Which, to me, indicates that majora is in a whole other ball park.

  83. Spectral Observer July 28, 2015 at 11:26 pm -      #183

    I’m siding with OriginalA on Ganon’s feats. WW Ganondorf =/= TP Ganon simply because of the split timeline. You cannot say that their feats are interchangeable because of the sheer difference in life experiences each has accumulated. We have to go by what each has demonstrated, since the two are practically different characters due to that timeline split. Case in point, their fighting styles. TP Ganon prefers to wear armor and fights with a single blade; WW Ganon is much more agile and uses two katanas. TP Ganon mastered(?) Twili magic while WW Ganon has his own magic, motivations, etc.

    Before everyone goes back to discussing Kain, I’d recommend checking out the Dracula vs. Kain thread for the other Kain buffs. It’d be nice to have that thread back on track again while interests are high.

  84. LadyRamkin July 28, 2015 at 11:29 pm -      #184

    WW Ganondorfs magic is the same as OoT Ganondorfs magic. TP Ganondorf has OoT Ganondorfs magic. They should at least be capable of the same things.

  85. Spectral Observer July 28, 2015 at 11:33 pm -      #185

    WW Ganon’s magic should carry from OoT, but I don’t agree with TP Ganon getting them simply because he wasn’t given the chance to. In that 7 year split between Child and Adult timelines, Ganon could have learned, refined, or dropped spells, and we do not know what these are other than what was demonstrated. As you said, TP Ganon didn’t even get the ToP until his botched execution, and that by itself could have an effect on his abilities/spells learned by that time. We can only go with what he was capable of doing before the timeline split, which if I remember correctly, wasn’t much.

  86. LadyRamkin July 28, 2015 at 11:38 pm -      #186

    TP Ganondorf was trapped in the Twilight realm for an unspecified amount of time. But it must have been long enough for the entirety of Hyrule castle AND the accompanying town to have been moved from its original position in OoT to where it is in TP, and for the temple of time to fall into such a state of disrepair. That is at the very least 100 years as low ball as it can go. If he spent that long in the twilight realm are you really going to say that he doesnt get those feats because of 7 years of practice?

    Both Ganondorfs had the same origins and both receive the triforce of power. And that is where WW Ganondorfs power growth stops. Whereas TP gets those things AND learns Twili magic, he should be capable of all the thing WW Ganondorf is and more.

  87. Spectral Observer July 28, 2015 at 11:41 pm -      #187

    I’m saying that those 7 years is enough time to say that he could have learned new spells, not that he knew them from the beginning. We don’t know whether or not TP Ganon even knew the rest of the spells, curses, what have you simply because he never got the chance to demonstrate that knowledge before the timeline split. I suppose the most you can say is that he has the potential for those spells, but no demonstrated feats with them.

    Both also attained the ToP at different times using different means. Since TP Ganon was trapped in the Twilight Realm, he could have spent more of his time with Twili magic whereas WW Ganon focused elsewhere.

  88. Kitten Lord July 29, 2015 at 4:33 am -      #188

    @Kara

    “But it does state that Blood Drain is a different ability to TK”

    Where? Where does it say the words “they are different”?

    “Dyr is a D&D mage, meaning he is OP. End of story. ”

    @Friendly

    “Dyr is a D&D mage, meaning he is OP. End of story. ”

    He is not an unstoppable force either. What with his “spell casting” times and his limited number of casts depending on memorised spells. And his best ones being will negatable and finally requiring a touch.

    See, we can both claim a character is really OP.

    @Mea

    “Kain doesn’t have that durability because chitin or chitinous materials aren’t that ridiculous”

    Daniel just points out that Kain could have an exoskeleton as well as an Endoskeleton. That does not mean Kains skin is actually made of chitin, just because it has similiar properties. You make no sense. Regardless of what it is made of, it does not change the feats applied to him.

    Which is in the Terapascal-Petapascal range in terms of pressure resistance.

    “I’ll leave this Kain nonsense out of this for now and promote Kain a different way. Does anyone think that using inspire hate would cause the mages to fight each other? I don’t think Ganondorf would be affected by it, simply because he seems to feed off hatred.”

    It would be pretty useful. He has both conflict reaver and inspire hate for this. Causing them all to kill eachother would be useful. It is not a mind control, and it just twists emotions, making you hate and want to kill your friends.

    I think Ganon would be just as susceptible, if not more so since he naturally is full of hate.

  89. Neon Lord July 29, 2015 at 7:17 am -      #189

    “He is also the second most expensive unit in the entirety of the game.”

    No, that would be a Titan of some sort. Maybe you mean in the Chaos Codex?

    “According to the tabletop, he is capable of spamming dozens of spells a turn, more than any other psyker in tabletop.”

    And no, certainly not dozens. Maybe four to six in the tabletop (that’s still high by tabletop standards though, I don’t dispute that).

    “*most powerful psyker unit. Just short of abbadon.”

    I’m pretty sure Kairos Fateweaver is more powerful than Ahriman, and for good reason.

  90. Rookie July 29, 2015 at 7:57 am -      #190

    @Neon Lord

    “I’m pretty sure Kairos Fateweaver is more powerful than Ahriman, and for good reason.”

    And Iskandar Khayon defeated Magnus in warp and forced him to stand on his knees before Abbadon so he is probably also stronger.

  91. GrandMaster July 29, 2015 at 10:42 am -      #191

    “And no, certainly not dozens. Maybe four to six in the tabletop (that’s still high by tabletop standards though, I don’t dispute that).”

    He can cast up to 15 if he has enough dice. It depends on how well you roll when casting.

    “I’m pretty sure Kairos Fateweaver is more powerful than Ahriman, and for good reason.”

    Kairos isn’t especially powerful, he just has really good precognition.

    “And Iskandar Khayon defeated Magnus in warp and forced him to stand on his knees before Abbadon so he is probably also stronger.”

    We have no context to how that fight went down. All we know is how it ended. Magnus could have very well been fighting the entire Black Legion Sorcerer Cabal and Khayon just happened to be in the right place at the right time to finish him off. In fact, we have so little context there may have not even been a fight at all, Khayon could have just convinced Magnus to serve Abaddon and bend the knee.

    Speaking of Abaddon, he isn’t a psyker, just a very, very good lore master.

  92. Friendlysociopath July 29, 2015 at 10:53 am -      #192

    What with his “spell casting” times and his limited number of casts depending on memorised spells.

    First point has no issue as he has plenty of time when few of his enemies have the feats to pierce through both illusion and invisibility.
    Second point was a very stupid thing to point out for reasons that should be obvious.

    And his best ones being will negatable and finally requiring a touch.

    I don’t think you know what his “best” spell is.

    See, we can both claim a character is really OP.

    Squirrel Girl solos.

  93. AbsoluteZero July 29, 2015 at 10:57 am -      #193

    “Squirrel Girl solos.”

    ..y’know, from what i’ve heard. There’s merit to that.

  94. pimpmage July 29, 2015 at 12:12 pm -      #194

    How would a squirrel girl do against bugs bunny?

  95. Friendlysociopath July 29, 2015 at 12:20 pm -      #195

    How would a squirrel girl do against bugs bunny?

    I’m seeing a date followed by the greatest TV series of all time.
    And mutant squirrel/rabbit hybrids.

  96. Kitten Lord July 29, 2015 at 2:11 pm -      #196

    @Friendly

    “First point has no issue as he has plenty of time when few of his enemies have the feats to pierce through both illusion and invisibility.”

    Kain has faced illusions before when fighting Moebius in BO 1, but they are doubly useless if their just holograms as you mentioned before. The first time anyone AoE’s or w/e and wonders why these things are unharmed assuming they do not dissolve on impact the ruse is lost.

    Someone could target him by chance as well or he woulc get killed accidently by the aoe.

    “Second point was a very stupid thing to point out for reasons that should be obvious.”

    Indulge me?

    “I don’t think you know what his “best” spell is”

    I would suspect you think its “wish”, I have gone through his list of spells as shown in that link earlier. And his paralyzing/BFR ones, the ones that work on touch and can be negated by will seem deadlier.

    Wish requires you to actually consider what you want to happen, then speak it out loud etc, this is all time. Then it may not even work since Wish does not give you omnipotence.

  97. LadyRamkin July 29, 2015 at 2:16 pm -      #197

    GANONDORF SOLOS. ALL HAIL THE KING OF DARKNESS. Or not, it’s your choice really. But if you don’t things will be really really bad for you.

  98. Mea quidem sententia July 29, 2015 at 2:25 pm -      #198

    @Kitten Lord
    He doesn’t say Kain “could have an exoskeleton as well as an endoskeleton”. That’s all me. What he said is Kain’s skin is chitinous, as in “made of, pertaining to, or resembling chitin.” This is supported when he says chitinous “refers to the exoskeletal nature of his skin.” That’s that. Chitin is durable, but not to the degree you place it at. Disagree all you want. This is BankGambling. Even the “conjecture” of a developer is factual and supersedes your opinions. I’m done. Don’t like it? Too bad.

  99. Kitten Lord July 29, 2015 at 2:45 pm -      #199

    @Mea

    “That’s that. Chitin is durable, but not to the degree you place it at”

    You just outlined how it could just resemble chitin. Daneil covers how it is soft like skin, so we know its not actually chitin. Which is hard and not malleable. Its not a shell.

    “Even the “conjecture” of a developer is factual”

    You just contradicted yourself. Conjecture is not a fact, and Daniel is just an artist who has an interpretation just like any other.

    His interpreation is not what your saying it is though, but more importantly, what your suggesting is as I have calculated countered by what actually happens in the game.

    No matter how much Kains skin “resembles” something like outer armour, it is still capable of recieving ridiculous pressure.

  100. Mea quidem sententia July 29, 2015 at 2:56 pm -      #200

    @Kitten Lord
    “Kain’s skin is hardened to an armor (more flexible in some areas than others) which serves to protect him from sunlight and weapon damage.” (italics mine)

    He doesn’t say it’s soft. Conjecture is an opinion based on not enough information. Daniel would have had more information than you, considering he was a developer. What I said isn’t a contradiction. It’s simply another way of saying, “Even if it’s conjecture, Daniel was a developer of the series, so his words hold more water than yours.”

    Since you think things that occur in game play are a game mechanic, your calculations can be dismissed as that. You have failed to support your argument. It’s been obliterated. You just don’t want to admit it. Again, you’re not doing Kain any justice. Just watching people play the game and hearing the opinions of others who don’t have a bias to argue against Kain presents Kain in a more favorable light. I could even say Kain is badass in some respects. I can’t say the same of how you portray Kain. It borders fanaticism.

    So whatever happens in future discussions, I will continue to maintain this position until a developer from the series says otherwise. Daniel’s words > your calculations.

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