Kain Vs DBZ gauntlet

Kain vs DBZ gauntlet

Suggested by Kitten Lord

Kain (LOK) will run DBZ gauntlet

The gauntlet will consist of 10 DBZ characters;
1) Yamcha
2) Master Roshi
3) Nappa
4) Krillin (Cell Saga)
5) Perfect Cell
6) Gohan (Buu saga)
7) Buu (Kid Buu)
8) Piccolo (Post Buu Saga)
9) Vegeta (SS2, Battle of the Gods)
10) Goku (at his peak)
11) Beerus (At his peak)
Bonus round; All of them at once vs Kain if he gets it this far and beats Beerus.
Second Bonus; If he beats the Bonus, he fights Whis
Battlefield; Solar system, starting planet Earth somewhere in the middle of central park. 100 meters apart. The trees, hills etc have been flattened for the battlefield.
Rules; Kain gets his sword, all his powers and spells from the games, the DBZ characters do not generally have items so ill leave them with fisticuffs
Victory; DBZ characters have to permanently incapacitate Kain, as in, destroy his body, they do not have to destroy Kains soul to win. Kain has to kill/incapacitate all DBZ characters.

How will this end?

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575 Comments on "Kain Vs DBZ gauntlet"

  1. Aelfinn July 28, 2015 at 9:48 pm -      #401

    “They can, does not mean they were or are. I do not recall Yamcha flying.”

    It provides a reasonable explanation for the physics of the scene. Shit, even hovering two inches above the ground explains it.
    =
    “By the same coin people not being able to “percieve” someone could just be “meh, fiction!””

    When someone points out how fast someone’s going, then a calc can be ascribed to it. “He’s going so fast he lit on fire!” let’s you calc what point they light on fire. Every single feat is going to be missing the logical effects if they happened in real life, but you have to ask where you draw the line, otherwise every strength feat from Raziel or Kain is drawn into question.
    =
    “They also consider subsonic speed (Beerus) to be pushing the limits of eachother. Clearly either the writer thinks the muzzle velocities of guns are slow, and writes that into his fiction or what I said before is true, they jsut predict the obvious trajectory of the round.”

    Or, ya know, they said “wouldn’t it look cool if this happened?” and didn’t give a shit about nerds on the internet showing Beerus in that one scene to be slower than sonic.
    =
    By the way, when Beerus flies out of Earth’s gravity, that puts his speed at Mach 32. Escape Velocity.

  2. Kara Zor-El July 28, 2015 at 9:50 pm -      #402

    “Actually you can, it’s called cognitive dissonance And you do not need to be mentally deficient to experience it.”
    _
    Hey, Listen! Get off the fence before I burn it down ;P

  3. Soulerous July 28, 2015 at 9:51 pm -      #403

    Cognitive dissonance describes the feelings of discomfort that come from holding conflicting beliefs. It’s a “mental stress.” Holding contradictory beliefs doesn’t necessarily indicate lack of intelligence, but it certainly indicates lack understanding.

  4. LadyRamkin July 28, 2015 at 9:53 pm -      #404

    “Hey, Listen! Get off the fence before I burn it down ;P”

    research.fuseink.com/artifactimg/201404/thumb300_MTM5ODMyODQwMzE2Mzc3XzE.gif
    – – –
    “Cognitive dissonance describes the feelings of discomfort that come from holding conflicting beliefs”

    According to my 2 second google search it cognitive dissonance means
    “the state of having inconsistent thoughts, beliefs, or attitudes, especially as relating to behavioural decisions and attitude change.”
    Which is what my statement was based off.

  5. Kara Zor-El July 28, 2015 at 9:54 pm -      #405

    Are people purposely ignoring me lol? His Blood Drain ability is separate from his TK ability. This one simple fact undermines Kittens entire TK argument. They’re separate abilities. One cannot be used to argue the for the other.

  6. Friendlysociopath July 28, 2015 at 9:54 pm -      #406

    cognitive dissonance

    Cognitive dissonance is WHY you cannot believe in two opposing views- your mind will literally start yelling at you that what you’re doing doesn’t make sense.

    Are people purposely ignoring me lol?

    No, but you seem to have a gift for posting when I haven’t hit refresh.

    They’re separate abilities. One cannot be used to argue the for the other.

    I agree, but there is a person who disagrees. And according to that person, so long as he disagrees, we aren’t right.

  7. AbsoluteZero July 28, 2015 at 9:56 pm -      #407

    @Kara Zor-El

    I think the reason nobody is focusing on that, is because kitten also disputes their being seperate. Despite, y’know. They are.

  8. Kara Zor-El July 28, 2015 at 10:00 pm -      #408

    @AbsoluteZero
    _
    Has it been brought up before? I confess I haven’t read every single post, though I’ve kept up with most of it.
    _
    “No, but you seem to have a gift for posting when I haven’t hit refresh.”
    _
    Must be a skill xD
    _
    “I agree, but there is a person who disagrees. And according to that person, so long as he disagrees, we aren’t right.”
    _
    Again, has it been brought up before?_
    _
    “Well, you are posting that here AND in the ‘hunt for mages’ match so maybe they plan to respond in the other one.”
    _
    I hope so. Hard to refute word of god after all.

  9. LadyRamkin July 28, 2015 at 10:00 pm -      #409

    “Are people purposely ignoring me lol?”
    “His Blood Drain ability is separate from his TK ability.”

    Well, you are posting that here AND in the ‘hunt for mages’ match so maybe they plan to respond in the other one.

  10. AbsoluteZero July 28, 2015 at 10:02 pm -      #410

    @Kara, Ramkin

    Yeah. This is a debate on two fronts, basically. Both mages and this are Kain feats. So sad.

  11. Soulerous July 28, 2015 at 10:04 pm -      #411

    @Ramkin- I’m going off of this. (And Wikipedia and simplypschology.org.)
    ~
    @Ruliya- “Are people purposely ignoring me lol?
    -I’ve been enjoying your posts.

  12. LadyRamkin July 28, 2015 at 10:06 pm -      #412

    @Soulerous
    Fair enough, i was not trying to site google as some kind of authority, more like attempting to explain away my ignorance.

  13. Friendlysociopath July 28, 2015 at 10:11 pm -      #413

    This is a debate on two fronts, basically.

    3.5 actually. Same thing is happening in a Rand Al’Thor thread; and it’s drawing off the problems started in an earlier DBZ thread.

    Again, has it been brought up before?

    On this thread? I do not believe so.

  14. Kara Zor-El July 28, 2015 at 10:21 pm -      #414

    “On this thread? I do not believe so.”
    _
    Well I’m sticking my heels in the mud. Kitten didn’t create the games, the people who wrote the manual did. And as he didn’t have TK in Blood Omen 1, yet had a similar move, in Blood Omen 2 they’re listed as separate abilities, and in Defiance they’re listed as separate abilities, I have to go with word of god, creators of the game, over Kittens interpretations, as I’m guessing every sane person also would.
    _
    Even his comic showing can be taken as Kain using both abilities in conjunction with each other. TK to lift them up, Blood Drain to drain them. Nothing states he can’t use both at once, and nothing contradicts it.
    _
    And as Blood Drain has very specific conditions in order to be used, I think this is a very open and shut case. Kain loses to Yamcha. Sorry dood.

  15. Aelfinn July 28, 2015 at 10:46 pm -      #415

    “Same thing is happening in a Rand Al’Thor thread”

    Fuckin tell me about it.

  16. Numinous One July 28, 2015 at 11:13 pm -      #416

    “Even his comic showing can be taken as Kain using both abilities in conjunction with each other. TK to lift them up, Blood Drain to drain them. Nothing states he can’t use both at once, and nothing contradicts it.”

    That’s actually the requirement for blood drain IIRC.
    Target needs to be stunned or incapacitated.
    Which is what he used TK to do in that scan.

  17. Nobunaga Jin July 28, 2015 at 11:55 pm -      #417

    “Sorry dood”
    …Now I’m imagining a Prinny version of Supergirl.

  18. Friendlysociopath July 29, 2015 at 12:05 am -      #418

    Fuckin tell me about it.

    Do not underestimate my capacity for evil Aelfinn, so help me- I WILL parrot Kitten Lord at you.

  19. Commander Cross July 29, 2015 at 1:16 am -      #419

    @Nobunaga Jin at #416

    Well if Prinnies can also be Fallen Angels(and there’s no rules at all in Disgaea that says its out-of-the-question AFAIK), try to imagine Fallen Angel Prinny Supergirl if that makes sense.
    There wasn’t any Texts that state Angels can’t be Horny without winding up Fallen Angels for it either, in spite of regards on The Anarchy Siblings from Panty + Stocking with Garterbelt because those two were Horny Animals BEFORE they went Fallen, under more complicated circumstances AFAIR.
    Need I go on, or must I understate matters wily-nilly for no reason?

    @Councilor Aelfinn at #414

    There there my good sir, none forgot what became of those matters with Richard Rahl involved.

    @Everyone Else

    Well, if The Big-G Man Himself can get a fight on BankGambling, this risks winding up a Free-for-all with no positive kudos all over again, and basically people died/got erased for our sins for nothing.
    But hey, no pressure for anyone. 😀

    Next up, The Mary Sue Litmus Tests vs The Gnostic Demiurge and let’s go with the general versions of both which are equally bad, to make matters fairer, okay?
    (I never said anything about Square, sillies.
    If THAT is no Square Fight in spite of it being fair, that’s the way the cookie crumbles.)

  20. Commander Cross July 29, 2015 at 3:29 am -      #420

    I’m not sure how this helps or hurts current matters, but I found some stuff in two links, one of them is from the site itself and the other’s from deviantart.

    More of Kain’s abilities weren’t exactly noted in here either.

    This here is from Deviantart though, Kratos vs Kain Redux?

    Anyone mind having a look at those by chance since the FP Link has notes from Cypher regarding more of Kain’s abilities?

  21. Kitten Lord July 29, 2015 at 4:26 am -      #421

    @Kara

    “or moving a meter per second at best.”

    Like the Z fighters then.

    “They specifically separate the move sets “TK” and “Blood Drain””

    This is your opinion/conjecture purely. Your cleverly inserting “move sets” but truth is we do not know if their different move sets or just two uses of TK on different pages.

    ” I don’t remember signs of stress”

    Oh I do, a lot of stress. The very idea Goku was not using his full power angered Beerus that he would then “push” himself up a notch in terms of speed in order to wreck him.

    ” Do you propose that he can just as easily Blood Drain, as we now know it’s not TK, these characters?”

    If they are not doing anything then sure. If they have blood.

    “which seems to be undercutting them by a long way.”

    Oh really? Seems I am not because I cover all their points.

    @Lowk

    “In reference to using TK,”

    Yeah, him using said TK. Be clear that it is his use of TK that is being spoken about.

    “And as Blood Drain has very specific conditions in order to be used, I think this is a very open and shut case. Kain loses to Yamcha. Sorry dood.”

    No this is not true. He uses it on people who are not wounded and so can use it on anyone, including Beerus or Yamcha less than a second in, killing them more or less instantly.

    Even without using blood powers Kain has a long list of ways of killing everyone on the team. Even if its mind raping them and forcing them to kill themselves. Or shocking their brains or freezing them in time and then poking them with the reaver.

    He could just claw them, which would kill anyoen in DBZ with ease. Or he could let them throw their hardest punch at him. Which could kill them as well.

    Also, nothing in the manuels no matter how you bleat about it says they are two different powers. They are just two forms of the same power described on two different pages.

    @Friendly

    “he has then proceeded to never address them after admitting they exist.
    Probably because they invalidate his entire argument.”

    Address? I think I have covered Gotenks and Tao already. Gotenks is irrelevent to this thread.

    “You cannot believe characters go above the speed of sound and cannot go above the speed of sound.”

    I can belive that one character can go above the speed of sound, or that several characters can while travelling without any thought of combat.

    And then make the seperation between travel speed and combat speed.

    @Aeflinn

    “Shit, even hovering two inches above the ground explains it.”

    We do not see any hovering though, we do not see this. We Yamcha running actually on the ground then disappearing. No heat, no great shockwave or sound, nothing. Even the grass beneath his feet does not hardly stirr.

    “Every single feat is going to be missing the logical effects ”

    DBZ has more than enough capability to create furrows in the ground because it does, it does a lot more than that when concerning environmental damage.

    “By the way, when Beerus flies out of Earth’s gravity, that puts his speed at Mach 32. Escape Velocity.”

    Well we see this to be not the case, because as I calced in DBZ power level thread it took them quite a while of flying just to get to the cloud coverage from the gound. I got about Mach 2.

    You make no sense Aeflinn. You argue that fiction does not always make sense in terms of physics then you try and use physics to explain them leaving the earth despite them clearly moving slower.

  22. Kitten Lord July 29, 2015 at 4:47 am -      #422

    Cross is that actually going to be a death battle? As in, by screwattack?

    Also interesting to note, they have the same view on TK and blood as me so its not like I have a lone view.

  23. Kara Zor-El July 29, 2015 at 8:35 am -      #423

    “This is your opinion/conjecture purely. Your cleverly inserting “move sets” but truth is we do not know if their different move sets or just two uses of TK on different pages.”
    _
    Awww, sweetie, no. As I’ve proven they’re separate abilities, it’s you who have used conjecture and your own opinion to assume they’re the same. If Blood Drain used TK it would have been mentioned within the ability description, as it is not mentioned, then it is not used. It is a wholly different ability that works independently of TK.
    _
    In Blood Omen 1 Kain fed in much the same way he does in all games, but had no TK. Telekinesis was a Dark Gift used by Kain in Blood Omen 2. Kain gained the Dark Gift in Chapter 7:The Canyons after absorbing the veins of the Seer . Telekinesis was unusual as it was gained from a Hylden, rather than a Vampire. As you can see Vampires don’t have TK, and he was feeding as normal without TK.
    _
    In fact nowhere in Blood Omen 2’s extensive descriptions on TK does it ever mention the ability to use it to drain blood. The Seer even says “By drinking my blood, you will be granted the gift of Telekinesis.” So we know this is where he gets TK from. He has not had it during the previous sections of the game or in Blood Omen 1. And he still feeds at range from enemies chained to walls, i.e incapacitated. So we know he can also only use Blood Drain on Stunned or Incapacitated individuals, and it’s not through TK.
    _
    Not sure what else to tell you. Clear proof his feeding/Blood Drain isn’t TK related.

  24. Ragnorke July 29, 2015 at 9:08 am -      #424

    I tried to stay away… I really did… but oh god.
    www.blogcdn.com/massively.joystiq.com/media/2011/10/facepalm.jpg

    @Kitten
    “Yeah, really? where in space friend? show me, for example where my “spirit” is in space? Not my body, my spirit….
    Oh wait…you cant, because its not even physical.”

    Where is your awareness? Where is your consciousness? What are the events around you that you can perceive?
    Oh right, it’s at the plottable point in space which is your body.
    It doesn’t need to be physical to be at a single point in space.
    The fact that you aren’t omnipresent PROVES your consciousness exists at a single point at a time.
    And that point is determined by your experiences with the surrounded, which in Kains case all stem from his FUCKING BODY.

    ” What if its in the spectral plane? and so not in the body? Is that plottable in space too? ”

    The fact that Kains consciousness only experiences, interacts with, and acknowledges what’s directly around his body, would mean yes, the spectral plane would be plottable in space too.
    Not that you’ve posted anything to support that spectral plane bullshit to begin with.

    “Sounds like Admin succeeded. You failed because you could not convince someone with your argument.”

    You make it sound like my goal is to convince my opponent. It isn’t.
    My goal is to make the side i believe should win… Win.
    And therefor i succeeded, my side secceeded, Malenfant didn’t… And all without needing to convince him he was wrong.
    You seem to be no different.

    “Neither can you force anything at all. Hence why there are two branches to this argument. Or your argueing from ignorance fallaciously.”

    You can’t branch an argument based on an unproven “what if…” theory.
    Because even if that branch results in your side winning, it doesn’t fucking matter, because it’s an unproven “what if…” theory.
    Therefor there is literally NO POINT going through with that branch unless everyone in the debate accepts it as a possibility and is willing to continue with it.

    In this case, no one aside from you accepts it, and you have no way of proving it, and therefor we are going to ignore it.

    “No he used TK.”

    He used TK to target a pressure point towards the bottom.
    The rest toppled under its own weight due to being a naturally formed unbalanced formation.

    Mea (the guy you got your calculation from) agrees with this. So get off your fucking high horse.

    “no human can shatter over 100 tons of pillar into fragments flying off into the water like a broken glass bottle like that.”

    Yes, yes they can.
    Do you know the architectural stability of the formation? Nope.
    Do you know the density of the rock? Nope.
    Do you know the existence of any pressure points, and their potency, on this formation? Nope.
    Therefor, it’s entirely possible that a human could have accomplished it. Thus it’s no where near as impressive as you’d like to think.

    Also, it did NOT shatter like a glass bottle. It broke into a dozen pieces at most.
    Go ahead and try smashing a glass bottle. I’ll give you a cookie if it breaks into just a dozen pieces.

  25. AbsoluteZero July 29, 2015 at 9:09 am -      #425

    @Kara Zor-El

    I really, really like that post.

    So, Kain’s ability to use TK on a cellular level was just shot to pieces. In fact, i’m not sure if he’s ever used it with precision, bar that, now void, possibility. For the most part it’s blasts of force and lifting enemies off the ground, not precise by any means.

  26. Kitten Lord July 29, 2015 at 9:15 am -      #426

    @Kara

    ” As I’ve proven they’re separate abilities,”

    How so honey baby cakes?

    “In Blood Omen 1 Kain fed in much the same way he does in all games, but had no TK. ”

    That is TK, moving an object, including blood with your mind is by definition TK.

    “. As you can see Vampires don’t have TK, and he was feeding as normal without TK.”

    She actually outlines how he could move objects with his mind but only at short range. This is TK.

    “So we know this is where he gets TK from. He has not had it during the previous sections of the game or in Blood Omen 1. ”

    Hes not had that enhanced brand, the Dark gift variant no. She powered him up.

    4:37

    “you can already manipulate objects by sheer will alone”

    So he already has the typical defintion by our standards of TK;

    www.thefreedictionary.com/telekinesis


    The supposed inducement of movement of an object by mental or spiritual power.”

    www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/telekinesis

    the production of motion in objects (as by a spiritualistic medium) without contact or other physical means

    So all we can tell from the comment on her “giving” him TK is that she does not consider what we would call TK unless its at a greater distance than “close”

    “So we know he can also only use Blood Drain on Stunned or Incapacitated individuals, and it’s not through TK.”

    It is but how did you come to this conclusion? Even if he can manipulate blood, and its not TK…which it is, that does not change the thread, he still manipulates their blood and they go into cardiac arrest and Organ failure so…..what was your point?

    “Not sure what else to tell you. Clear proof his feeding/Blood Drain isn’t TK related.”

    Well you know, I have tons of clear proof of how DBZ lose yet not everyone agrees still so clearly it cannot be that clear.

    @Zero

    ” For the most part it’s blasts of force and lifting enemies off the ground, not precise by any means.”


    Add crushing throats, moving smaller objects like weapons and turning mechanisms.

  27. AbsoluteZero July 29, 2015 at 9:17 am -      #427

    I’ve really started to notice in Defiance that Kain really only ever blasts through objects that are either structurally unstable or cracked through, several times. It wouldn’t have taken any more for the designs to have things not be broken or unstable. Which makes me come the conclusion that Kain doesn’t have the raw Telekinetic force to blast things open, but instead relies on hitting weakspots.

  28. Ragnorke July 29, 2015 at 9:17 am -      #428

    Every single one of your arguments is falling apart.
    You’re going in circles or bullshitting your way around points.
    It’s now something like 9vs1.
    And you’ve made it clear that you won’t change your mind.

    So why continue the debate at all instead of asking Admin to make his judgement?
    Is it because you fear he’ll side against you? Just like literally EVERYONE else on this thread?

    But then that brings me back to the point of: Why continue the debate at all?
    No one gets awarded without Admins approval, so you might as well get it over with, while Kain still has SOME of his dignity & feats intact.

    No one is learning anything new at this point, aside from us realizing how bullshit & weak Kains overwanked feats really are.

    I remember you commenting on one of the Malenfant issues not too long ago, and agreeing that he was wrong,
    It’s ironic because you are now doing EXACTLY what he was.
    You’re ignoring literally every other debater on this site, are adamant that you can’t possibly be wrong, and that we’re all just idiots that can’t see your genius.

  29. Kitten Lord July 29, 2015 at 9:25 am -      #429

    @Rag

    “Where is your awareness?”


    not a plottable point in space that is for sure.

    “Oh right, it’s at the plottable point in space which is your body.”

    Again, no proof. The body for a regular human being is the vessel for the reactions that may “create” what we call “will” but its not will itself.

    “My goal is to make the side i believe should win… Win.”

    But Admin made it win by the sounds of it. You were useless like you are here.

    “You can’t branch an argument based on an unproven “what if…” theory.”

    I can branch an argument because there are two sides, two possibilities. Until one of those is proven completely impossible then we cannot fallaciously claim it is. Well, not without breaking debating guidelines or logic….I am sure you will continue to do so, your good at that.

    “Yes, yes they can.”

    Prove it.

    “Do you know the architectural stability of the formation?”

    I know its stable enough to maintain its own weight.

    “Do you know the density of the rock?”

    Covered in the calc.

    “Do you know the existence of any pressure points, and their potency, on this formation?”

    Worthless waffle, I doubt you even know what your talking about here.

    “It broke into a dozen pieces at most.”

    A dozen piecies up and down the column, at once….

    Kain did not just “topple” like you claim otherwise this process would not have been at the same time. Nor would those huge hunks of rock be flying in the direction Kain launched them….nearly 200 tons….”thump” like a train.

    “Why continue the debate at all?”

    To convince my opposition. Or convince Admin. Whatever comes first. Frankly it hardly matters, Kain wins whether he uses TK, blood manipulation or his range is only 5 meters…it makes no difference to this thread.

    “You’re ignoring literally every other debater on this site, are adamant that you can’t possibly be wrong, and that we’re all just idiots that can’t see your genius.”

    Stop blubbering Raggy old boy. Its more that people are adamant that they are right even fallaciously so. I am not convinced everyone is as controlled in their “form” in debate as I am and so do not always understand when they are making a fallacy.

    You are mistaken because you want to assume things not proven.

  30. AbsoluteZero July 29, 2015 at 9:33 am -      #430

    “Stop blubbering Raggy old boy. Its more that people are adamant that they are right even fallaciously so. I am not convinced everyone is as controlled in their “form” in debate as I am and so do not always understand when they are making a fallacy. ”

    Sweet black fucking sabbath. Now i’m just concerned that this much density is going to throw the solar system into chaos when it generates more gravitational pull than the sun.

    Kitten. You’ve been -wantonly- running No Limit Fallacies. And refusing to aknowledge it. BankGambling works off what can be proven, with feats. If a character isn’t expressly shown to do something, they can’t do it. You can disagree with that as much as you like, but it’s one of the rules of the site. Claiming Kain can internally explode someone, for instance. Show us a clip of him doing it, or he can’t do it.

  31. Kara Zor-El July 29, 2015 at 9:52 am -      #431

    “How so honey baby cakes?”
    _
    Oh honey bun, do you fail at reading comprehension? Because I wrote it up there and I do so despise having to repeat myself.
    _
    To all your waffle on “nuh uh my opnion is it’s TK” I’ll just say this. It’s not TK, it’s Blood Manipulation a completely different ability, here: powerlisting.wikia.com/wiki/Blood_Manipulation Kain is listed as a user of this power.
    _
    “It is but how did you come to this conclusion?”
    _
    Because word of god, i.e the manual tells us that to use his Blood Drain abilities enemies need to have 1 of 2 criteria in order for him to use it. They must be either Stunned or Incapacitated.
    _
    “Even if he can manipulate blood, and its not TK…which it is, that does not change the thread, he still manipulates their blood and they go into cardiac arrest and Organ failure so…..what was your point?”
    _
    The point being Kitten, that the Z fighters will be neither Stunned nor Incapacitated at the start of the match and thus Kain will not be able to use Blood Drain as per its limits. However much you wish him to be able to.
    _
    Well you know, I have tons of clear proof of how DBZ lose yet not everyone agrees still so clearly it cannot be that clear.”
    _
    You have lots of supposition and conjecture. No proof. calcing 1 incident does not mean you found their max movement speed. We’ve been through this, not that you listen. I can lead a blind man to water, but I can’t make him drink.
    _
    +1 for DBZ.

  32. AbsoluteZero July 29, 2015 at 9:53 am -      #432

    +1 for DBZ

  33. Kitten Lord July 29, 2015 at 10:14 am -      #433

    @Zero

    “BankGambling works off what can be proven, with feats.”

    And we can watching the videos prove Kain uses his will to draw blood.

    ” If a character isn’t expressly shown to do something, they can’t do it.”

    ignorance fallacy

    I assume nothing. I know Kain can manipulate objects with his mind, and I know he does this by gesturing at them and willing them to move, choke or w/e. This is all I have used in this thread.

    “Claiming Kain can internally explode someone”

    Is covered by the feats. He has feats of creating Tk inside a body, ergo blood. he has feats of outputing 100-200 tons of force, therefore he has the proven ability to “explode” someone.

    @Kara

    “so despise having to repeat myself.”

    Oh snookums I feel for you I do!

    “Kain is listed as a user of this power.”

    So wait a second, your using some sort of “powers database”, to prove the canon of the game?

    “Because word of god”

    that is a manuel explaining to the player how they can drink blood from enemies. So yes, its word of god that in-game Kain has to wait for them t obe in a “waver” state. Or rather the player does.

    “The point being Kitten, that the Z fighters will be neither Stunned nor Incapacitated at the start of the match”

    Which is remedied by what I have said and proven all along, a gesture of TK. Exactly as he does to the man in the comic.

    ” No proof. ”

    So I have 30-40 sources proving what I said, video evidence. Yet you think your “proof” for Kain not tking blood is because a “powers” site somewhere lists him as a user of blood manipulation?

    www.reactiongifs.com/r/2012/12/lol.gif

    “calcing 1 incident does not mean you found their max movement speed”

    Its the max we have. Considering we know Beerus does not “start” at this speed and builds up to it and that he can easily, even without much effort take out most of the Z fighters, I have covered with that calc this fight….

    +1 for Kain

  34. Kara Zor-El July 29, 2015 at 10:47 am -      #434

    “Oh snookums I feel for you I do!”
    _
    T’is a pain, but what we must go through.
    _
    “So wait a second, your using some sort of “powers database”, to prove the canon of the game?”
    _
    No, I’m showing you that his Blood Drain is a different move. I’ve said “Blood Drain is not TK it’s Blood Manipulation” and then show you that Blood Manipulation is indeed not TK.
    _
    “that is a manuel explaining to the player how they can drink blood from enemies. So yes, its word of god that in-game Kain has to wait for them t obe in a “waver” state. Or rather the player does.”
    _
    That is the people who made the game explaining the skills in the game, so yeah I’m going to take their explanations over your opinion. Show me, if you will, Kain Blood draining someone who is not Stunned or Incapacitated. Because I haven’t seen that yet.
    _
    “Which is remedied by what I have said and proven all along, a gesture of TK. Exactly as he does to the man in the comic.”
    _
    Still not proven. A gesture of TK lifts the guy in the air, incapacitating him and allowing him to use Blood Drain. Rather simple, wouldn’t you say? Two separate abilities used in conjunction with each other. If Kain can TK hold Z fighers, then maybe he can put them into a state of Incapacity for him to use Blood Drain, but still no proof of him TKing things at speed has been given.
    _
    “So I have 30-40 sources proving what I said, video evidence. Yet you think your “proof” for Kain not tking blood is because a “powers” site somewhere lists him as a user of blood manipulation?”
    _
    Your opinion and assumptions still aren’t proof. My proof is the manuals, the actual descriptions of how the abilities work, while yours are simple conjecture. The site was to show you that even though it looks like TK (this being your conjecture. It looks like TK ergo it must be TK. Even though it isn’t) it isn’t TK.
    _
    “Its the max we have.”
    _
    Despite the many calcs debunking that as max? So no, it’s not the max we have.
    _
    “+1 for Kain”
    _
    At least he gets a consolation vote. Good for him.

  35. Ragnorke July 29, 2015 at 10:48 am -      #435

    @Kitten
    “not a plottable point in space that is for sure.
    Again, no proof. The body for a regular human being is the vessel for the reactions that may “create” what we call “will” but its not will itself.”

    Every emotion is a physical chemical reaction.
    Every feeling you experience, everything you consider to be your “consciousness”. It’s all a part of your body.
    Whether or not Kains consciousness is created by his body or not isn’t as important as the fact that it’s still LIMITED to a point in space, being his body.

    Can Kain see, hear, experience, acknowledge, and perceive things which aren’t near his physical body?
    No, because he isn’t omnipresent. He exists in one place, and only one place.
    That means he is plottable in Space.
    Stop denying or saying it isn’t proven. It is. And you’ve done nothing to successfully counter it.

    “But Admin made it win by the sounds of it. You were useless like you are here.”

    Admin read my arguments along with the 10 other peoples arguments. He came to the conclusion that we were right, and that Malenfant was wrong.
    My side won. I accomplished my goal. And therefor i succeeded in what i wanted to do.
    Your pathetic attempt at insulting me is actually sad as fuck.

  36. Ragnorke July 29, 2015 at 10:48 am -      #436

    @Kitten

    “I can branch an argument because there are two sides, two possibilities. Until one of those is proven completely impossible then we cannot fallaciously claim it is. Well, not without breaking debating guidelines or logic”

    Two possibilities, neither of which are proven.
    We are not forced by debating rules to follow both. We only need to follow one.
    We don’t need to factually claim it’s impossible, you need to factually claim why it’s the right one.

    I am not breaking ANY BankGambling debating guidelines. If i am, find the rule, and post it.
    If anything, YOU are breaking BankGambling debating rules by trying to branch off a debate based on an assumption.

    News flash: We are NOT forced to follow through or even acknowledge assumptions unless you can prove them.

    “I know its stable enough to maintain its own weight.”

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAA
    Best argument of the year. Aren’t you an expert scientist in the making.
    No seriously.. Is this really the argument you’re going with…? Cause i can poke so many holes in it, Swiss cheese would get jealous.

    Being stable enough to maintain its own weight means being in Equilibrium. Where all of its internal & external forces are at a perfect balance.
    In some cases, literally ONE newton of external Force can be enough to topple a structure which is “maintaining its own weight”.
    holykaw.alltop.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/32129521-media_httpfarm7static_HvJII.jpg

    “Covered in the calc.”

    The Calc that Mea did? You mean the guy that agrees with me.. and disagrees with you?
    The Calc which was based on a baseless assumption, and was nothing more than Guesswork when it came to density?
    Yea that calc didn’t cover jack shit.

    “Worthless waffle, I doubt you even know what your talking about here.”

    You think pressure points aren’t a real thing…?
    Are you fucking stupid? or are you just pretending to be stupid because it’s convenient?

    Unstable structures have “weak points”. Apply enough pressure to those weak points, and the structure comes toppling down on itself.
    www.kinsa.com/files/2015/07/ecommerce-jenga2.jpg

    “Kain did not just “topple” like you claim otherwise this process would not have been at the same time. Nor would those huge hunks of rock be flying in the direction Kain launched them….nearly 200 tons….”thump” like a train.”

    1. The process wasn’t at the exact same time. I stopped it frame by frame. There’s a clear point where it started from, which was towards the bottom, where Kain was focusing, which seems to be the pressure point.
    2. The upper rocks would go falling in the same direction that the bottom rock was pushed towards. That would be due to friction & impulse.

    ^ Facts. Not your bullshit opinions.
    www.quickmeme.com/img/55/5584a5b0c8dee3dabd7c2bee5f1b5c135245dd556590ab3d3834d1e3e90ff750.jpg

  37. Ragnorke July 29, 2015 at 10:53 am -      #437

    Oh, right, we’re doing this now i guess,
    +1 DBZ

    @Kitten
    ” he has feats of outputing 100-200 tons of force,”

    NO. HE. FUCKING. DOESN’T.

  38. Nsl98 July 29, 2015 at 10:57 am -      #438

    +1 for DBZ

  39. Ragnorke July 29, 2015 at 11:06 am -      #439

    Kitten, i dare you, i double dare you, i will literally pay for EVERY SINGLE one of your living expenses for the next year, if you prove to me where Kain has outputted 100-200 tons of force.

    Right now. Prove it. Do the whole calc from scratch.

    You keep referring to this magical Calc (which was done by Mea… Who disagrees with the way you’re using it btw), when the Calc itself doesn’t come fucking close to proving what you’re claiming.

    That Calc proves that Kain MIGHT have pushed over a rock,
    Which MIGHT have been over a hundred tons,
    ASSUMING the rock was perfectly stable,
    ASSUMING it was a perfectly solid block,
    ASSUMING it had no pressure points towards the bottom,

    And even then, even AFTER all those assumptions, it STILL doesn’t take a hundred tons of Force to do that.

    Pushing over a 100N pillar of rock doesn’t take 100N of Force.
    It can be done with way, way, WAY fucking less.
    Kain didn’t LIFT IT up against gravity, he pushed it away HORIZONTALLY.
    God knows where you came to this conclusion.

  40. Friendlysociopath July 29, 2015 at 11:16 am -      #440

    Kitten, i dare you, i double dare you, i will literally pay for EVERY SINGLE one of your living expenses for the next year

    Goddamn I wish that could actually be proved so hard right now.

    Still on Team DBZ, Kitten has to argue they’re slow because he even mentions in his Respect Thread that Supersonic characters are too fast for Kain’s TK.
    +1 DBZ

    At least he gets a consolation vote.

    I dunno, somehow I find just 1 vote sadder than zero.

  41. Kitten Lord July 29, 2015 at 1:59 pm -      #441

    @Kara

    “No, I’m showing you that his Blood Drain is a different move. I’ve said “Blood Drain is not TK it’s Blood Manipulation” and then show you that Blood Manipulation is indeed not TK.”

    That is not proof that it cannot be TK, infact, it can be TK AND blood manipulation. Like I outlined TK is controlling objects at a distance with your mind.

    “That is the people who made the game explaining the skills in the game,”

    Within the gameplay. “press and hold I to feed!”, is not lore, or canon.

    “Your opinion and assumptions still aren’t proof.”

    No my proof is proof. You know, video evidence, only 30-40 instances of it.

    ” If Kain can TK hold Z fighers, then maybe he can put them into a state of Incapacity for him to use Blood Drain, but still no proof of him TKing things at speed has been given.”

    You said before that DBZ fighters do not start off incapacitied which is true, like you just suggested that can happen in less than a second just as I argued before. The only difference your point of view changes is that he is using TK and blood manip, not two TK’s.

    But despite not starting off incapaciated, they do not start off “moving at speed” either. And as my sources covered, it is not often that they always start at speed.

    “My proof is the manuals, the actual descriptions of how the abilities work”

    No, your proof is the mechanics. Page 22 it says To feed hold down the I key while near a stunned or vulnerable creature. The longer you hold down the key, the more blood kain will recievem clearly purely a mechanics standpoint description.

    “Despite the many calcs debunking that as max? So no, it’s not the max we have.”

    Oh really? where is the calcluation that debunks that for Beerus? be sure to leave out any fan extrapolation.

    @Rag

    “Stop denying or saying it isn’t proven. It is. And you’ve done nothing to successfully counter it.”

    What your refering to is not proven. Going on and on verbatum about how Kains body is a plottable point of space is boring as hell. Kain is not using his body to interact with objects, that is the whole point of TK, he using something that is not plottable, and does not exist physically, which is his will.

    Going on and on about “well will is created by the conciousness, which is connected to the chemical yadda yadda” first, it means nothing that those things are plottable. The will itself is not, even if what you think creates it is, and further as I have covered, Kain is a dead body, animated by sorcery. Another thing science does not cover, so going on about chemicals is a waste of time. The guy is walking about without his heart and your bringing up how he relies on chemicals within his body…

    “He came to the conclusion that we were right, and that Malenfant was wrong.”

    Did he actually say he read your arguments and was convinced by them or did he just make a judgement? Which could have been his own opinion already?

    “Your pathetic attempt at insulting me is actually sad as fuck.”

    Cool off buddy boy, I am not insulting you, I am helping you understand how much your wasting your time. You clearly cannot argue this point. You may as well wait to see if someone better can do so.

    “Two possibilities, neither of which are proven”

    Right, so we cannot ignore either, so two branches. next;

    “Being stable enough to maintain its own weight means being in Equilibrium. Where all of its internal & external forces are at a perfect balance.”

    What are you talking about? we have a vid of shaking it like a tremor, with pieices of rubble falling from the ceiling and it does not collapse until Kain outputs his TK.

    “The Calc which was based on a baseless assumption”

    Baseless? if you think its baseless then you did not read what he said.

    “Unstable structures have “weak points”. Apply enough pressure to those weak points, and the structure comes toppling down on itself.”

    You say that then show me a diagram of Jenga, with a piece at the bottom being removed. In the form of this pillar however it is attached to both the top and bottom, and all the piecies shatter and go flying off into the water at the same time…

    It does not just “fall over” because Kain removes a small piece.

    “1. The process wasn’t at the exact same time.”

    yeah I stopped it frame by frame as well. Looks like it all shatters at about the same time.

    “he pushed it away HORIZONTALLY.”

    He does not push it away he blasts it to piecies. You can see its solid, so your daft list is useless. And we know its stable because even while Kain is shaking it, it does not just fall apart.

  42. Mea quidem sententia July 29, 2015 at 2:11 pm -      #442

    Wow. I’m really enjoying the activity here. It’s like BankGambling vs. Kitten Lord, except we’re not discussing controversial matters.

  43. Friendlysociopath July 29, 2015 at 2:33 pm -      #443

    @Mea
    This may prove useful to you

    www.dark-chronicle.co.uk/sr2/timelinebig.php
    That’s a timeline of the LoK franchise.

    clearly purely a mechanics standpoint description.

    That translates perfectly to lore. Are you saying Kain will not gain more blood for feeding longer?

  44. Mea quidem sententia July 29, 2015 at 2:37 pm -      #444

    I approve. I should watch play throughs n that order.

  45. Kitten Lord July 29, 2015 at 2:48 pm -      #445

    @Friendly

    “That translates perfectly to lore. Are you saying Kain will not gain more blood for feeding longer?”

    No I am saying that sentence does is not required to prove he does. Of course he gets more blood, his is just common sense but enemies needing to be incapaciated for “special moves” are as common as much in gameplay mechanics. Kratos has to “weaken” all his enemies in GoW before he can perform his QTE, same with Dante and Dracula in many cases.

    It would be unbalanced and break the mechanics if Kain could just instant kill everyone with TK.

  46. Ragnorke July 29, 2015 at 2:56 pm -      #446

    @Kitten
    “What your refering to is not proven. Going on and on verbatum about how Kains body is a plottable point of space is boring as hell. Kain is not using his body to interact with objects, that is the whole point of TK, he using something that is not plottable, and does not exist physically, which is his will.”

    Kains body AND spirit only exist in one location at a time. This IS proven until you can find something that implies otherwise.
    Why is this proven? Because Kains awareness is limited to a single location at a time.
    Saying otherwise would mean claiming he has a form of omnipresence, which you would have to prove, which you cannot. Because you know it’s bullshit.

    ” I am helping you understand how much your wasting your time. You clearly cannot argue this point. ”

    Except a dozen people here agree with me. And i’v offered a $300 bet that Admin, the guy that wrote the rules, will agree with me too.
    Who agrees with you on this point again…?
    www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8E_zMLCRNg

    “Right, so we cannot ignore either, so two branches. next;”

    t1.livememe.com/t8ujq4_4.jpg
    2 branches, meaning 2 possibilities. One a stronger interpretation, one a weaker one.

    Stronger Interpretation: An opinion which no one has to accept due to lack of proof.
    If we go off into 2 branches, and Kain “wins” via this stronger interpretation, Kain does not actually receive the win at all, since it cannot be proven that he’s capable of this.
    Therefore making this entire branch meaningless, since it can never contribute to Kains victory (or defeat).

    Weaker Interpretation: A possibility which would be considered a “bare minimum” of what Kain can do, since he has undeniably performed it (or possibly something even more impressive)
    Therefor it HAS to be accepted by everyone on the opposing team.
    Therefor it can contribute to Kains victory. Making this Branch relevant.

    Characters don’t get “Half” a win, based on a “what if…”.
    Assumptions by their very definition are based on Opinions, and unfortunately for you Opinions don’t win matches on BankGambling.
    Don’t like it? Leave the fucking site or go bitch to Admin about it.

    “What are you talking about? we have a vid of shaking it like a tremor, with pieices of rubble falling from the ceiling and it does not collapse until Kain outputs his TK.”

    Kain could have been applying as little as 50 Newtons to start with, which began shaking it and causing pieces of rubble to fall off, and the sustained Force would eventually cause it to topple under its own lack of stability.
    This point you made does NOTHING to support your point.

    “In the form of this pillar however it is attached to both the top and bottom, and all the piecies shatter and go flying off into the water at the same time…”

    Friction, Instability & use of a pressure point, Lack of Density & Brittleness, Impulse & sudden removal of a piece,
    i2.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/facebook/000/013/034/yeahsciencebitch.PNG
    Even one of those would be enough to counter the feat due to assumption and uncertainty. I’v given you 8.

    “It does not just “fall over” because Kain removes a small piece.”

    It’s true that it doesn’t “fall over”.
    It “collapses” under its own weight due to instability, and due to its brittle nature it shatters immediately after.
    Can you prove otherwise? Didn’t think so. Now gtfo.

    “yeah I stopped it frame by frame as well. Looks like it all shatters at about the same time.”

    Yea i disagree. Tough shit amirite?

    “He does not push it away he blasts it to piecies.

    You can see its solid, so your daft list is useless.

    And we know its stable because even while Kain is shaking it, it does not just fall apart.”

    1. You can’t prove that. I’v given plenty of evidence on how the same result can be achieved from just blasting/removing a small part.

    2. Seeing it’s externally solid doesn’t prove its density, brittleness, composition, or stability whatsoever.
    It looks to be in equilibrium. That is all.

    3. Equilibrium doesn’t mean it needs to IMMEDIATELY fall apart the second 1 newton is applied to it.
    Kain could have gradually built up his TK force,
    Or the pillar may have needed a longer period of sustained Force to finally shatter under its weight.
    None of that proves the composition was perfectly stable.

    And i love how you missed the MOST important part of my post:
    “And even then, even AFTER all those assumptions, it STILL doesn’t take a hundred tons of Force to do that.
    Pushing over a 100N pillar of rock doesn’t take 100N of Force.
    It can be done with way, way, WAY fucking less.”

    This is something you’re not going to prove me wrong in.
    Even with the most high-end estimates taken into consideration,
    Even with all the assumptions, “what ifs”, & maybes taken in your favor,
    That feat would STILL not be proven as anywhere near a 100 ton Force.
    Your knowledge in physics is almost laughable. I study this on a daily basis. You’re making a fool of yourself.

  47. Kara Zor-El July 29, 2015 at 3:02 pm -      #447

    “That is not proof that it cannot be TK, infact, it can be TK AND blood manipulation. Like I outlined TK is controlling objects at a distance with your mind.”
    _
    It could be, but it’s not. Because as has been shown several times, they are listed as separate abilities. Your assertions are not evidence.
    _
    “No, your proof is the mechanics. Page 22 it says To feed hold down the I key while near a stunned or vulnerable creature. The longer you hold down the key, the more blood kain will recievem clearly purely a mechanics standpoint description.”
    _
    Wrong, I clearly outlined this passage “Kain’s ceaseless blood-hunger causes his health gauge to drain slowly over time, requiring him to feed frequently to sustain his energy and heal his wounds. When an enemy is vulnerable (either stunned or otherwise incapacitated), Kain can consume its blood to restore his health” Which is on page 16. Seems lore and cannon to me. That’s the move description, not how to use it.
    _
    “No my proof is proof. You know, video evidence, only 30-40 instances of it.”
    _
    No, you have videos showing certain things, the videos themselves do not prove anything. Your assumptions made based on the videos aren’t proof either. They’re assumptions and conjecture.
    _
    “Oh really? where is the calcluation that debunks that for Beerus? be sure to leave out any fan extrapolation.”
    _
    Mea’s the one with the calcs and I know you’ve seen them.
    _
    At any rate, I’ve said my piece, a few times more than you’d think I’d need to, but hey, I can’t make you drink.

  48. Friendlysociopath July 29, 2015 at 5:50 pm -      #448

    Speaking of manuals- (thanks to Spectral Observer)

    “Both Raziel and Kain are immortal, and cannot be killed by ordinary means. But if they fail to feed, or are wounded too grievously, they are forced to dematerialize. Kain bursts into a swarm of bats, re-forming and raziel becomes dissolute and is swept back in the spectral realm.”
    -LoK Defiance manual page 22

    So the manual also thinks Kain can be wounded by normal people.

    Added to that, if you follow this link (provided by Mea)
    legacyofkain.wikia.com/wiki/Blood
    You can read at the bottom all of the quotes about Blood, particularly about how being wounded makes you lose blood and requires you to replenish it.

  49. Ragnorke July 29, 2015 at 6:31 pm -      #449

    “So the manual also thinks Kain can be wounded by normal people.”

    I have a feeling if anyone showed the Kain threads on BankGambling to the LoK game devs, they would laugh at Kitten Lord for how much he’s misinterpreting, wanking, and blowing out of proportion.
    Heck they might actually feel a bit annoyed at how hard he’s trying to fuck up their creation.

    It’s actually ridiculous. There’s no way all that shit Kitten claims was authors intent when they were writing the character.
    Not that Kitten can prove any of it anyways, so whatever.

  50. Kitten Lord July 29, 2015 at 6:46 pm -      #450

    @Rag

    “Kains body AND spirit only exist in one location at a time. This IS proven until you can find something that implies otherwise.”

    That is not how it works. Whether or not I can prove my claim does not automatically make yours “proven”, until you know, you actually prove it. Your entire stance is conjecture at best. Baseless guessing and verbatum at worse, which is what I am leaning towards.

    ” One a stronger interpretation, one a weaker one.”

    opinion/conjecture.

    “This point you made does NOTHING to support your point.”

    It completely negates your point on asking how stable it is. If the structure was not stable, shaking it with a quake of force should have collapsed it.

    “It “collapses” under its own weight due to instability, and due to its brittle nature it shatters immediately after.”

    2.bp.blogspot.com/-33d_mJStelE/Uel3kiGENbI/AAAAAAAARzo/4Kgb_tf_t1M/s1600/jack_lol.gif

    What a reach, to the extreme. So large solid chunks of limestone are brittle according to you, and somehow just shatter because? I dont know, Kain removed a smell piece? What a load of nonsense.

    “Yea i disagree”

    Well of course you do. You cant seem to understand the physics here.

    ” I’v given plenty of evidence”

    Shit really, because all I see is weird links that do not provide proof for any of your claims, which are just stacking up and up.

    “Seeing it’s externally solid doesn’t prove its density, brittleness, composition, or stability ”

    Not just externally, internally as well as we can see the large piecies Kain breaks off are solid on the inside as well. Its not like the blocks of stone you see coming off are tons of small piecies or are hollow. Each piece as it flies off can be seen as solid.

    Also brittleness and density is covered by it being limestone. Stability is covered by it being able to take someone quaking it with audiable quaking without breaking.

    “Kain could have gradually built up his TK force,”

    no because he does it instantly. Kain can target that block in many different ways, he can hold his TK on it which gives us the “quake” effect, then we have the “bolt” of force that blasts it away and shatters it instantly and the same goes for the “on target” TK, like what he does with blood.

    ” I study this on a daily basis”

    If so its surprising you struggle to find proof of what your claiming.

    @Kara

    “they are listed as separate abilities”

    Not really, there is just a page in the manuel for each “control” the player has to do. Nothing in any source says blood is different than Tk in terms of manipulation.

    “Seems lore and cannon to me”

    Really? how can you read a passage that is talking about “health gauge” as lore and canon? As i said to Friendly the mechanic of doing a special attack or QTE only after the enemy is weakened or stunned is just a common gameplay mechanic. There is no logical reasoning why them being weakened or stunned has any bearing on him drawing their blood.

    “the videos themselves do not prove anything. ”

    They prove speed.

    “Mea’s the one with the calcs and I know you’ve seen them.”

    Well ok, quote it to me. Tell me the post number….ill wait patiently…

    @Friendly

    “So the manual also thinks Kain can be wounded by normal people.”

    No it doesnt, you embellished it.

  51. Friendlysociopath July 29, 2015 at 7:08 pm -      #451

    No it doesnt, you embellished it.

    Embellish – verb
    “make (something) more attractive by the addition of decorative details or features”

    Considering he was quoting the manual word for word, that is the exact opposite of embellishing. I believe the exact word that describes what Spectral Observer (and consequently myself) did is

    Quote – verb
    repeat or copy out (a group of words from a text or speech), typically with an indication that one is not the original author or speaker.

    So we ‘quoted’ from the manual of the game, written by the developers, describing the attributes of a character- coincidentally owned by the same developers.
    What the developers think of the characters just flat out matters more than what you think.

    how can you read a passage that is talking about “health gauge” as lore and canon?

    Because they actually refer to the “health gauge” in canon and lore; just like MC’s “health gauge” is also spoken of in canon.
    That’s why the energy shield is canon and the amount of blood Kain has within him is canon as well.

    When Kain is hurt he loses blood.
    Since Kain primarily fights humans, and Kain and other vampires speak of Kain needed to heal himself from his wounds via blood, Kain is hurt by humans.
    No embellishment, just a simple following of canon facts and quotes. Compared to you making Kain out to be something more than he is…
    wait…
    sounds like you’re the one embellishing something- isn’t that odd?

  52. Kitten Lord July 29, 2015 at 7:14 pm -      #452

    @Friendly

    “Considering he was quoting the manual word for word, that is the exact opposite of embellishing.”

    I do not know about him but you did not. You said that he can be harmed by humans. The manuel merely points out that if Kain happens to get damaged he can drink blood.

    “Because they actually refer to the “health gauge” in canon and lore”

    Show me Kain saying or mentioning a health gauge.

    “Since Kain primarily fights humans,”

    This is called embellishment. You have no idea what causes him to “require” feeding or who can even deal said wounds. You would if you read my respect thread though.

    Also Kain hardly “fights” humans any more than humans fight ants, or I fight my opposition in a debate, its just that effortless. There is no canon instance of Kain getting hit by a human, like ever, but there is of him getting hit by someone massively superhuman, with no damage at all…

  53. Amm0vamp1r3 July 29, 2015 at 7:28 pm -      #453

    I don’t think Kain ever really mentions a health gauge (no one in video games t actually from what I know)
    but he does mention a “life force”

    7:35

  54. Kitten Lord July 29, 2015 at 7:32 pm -      #454

    @Ammo

    “but he does mention a “life force””

    Of course he has a “life force”, he has a soul. That is not what is being discussed. Friendly said they use “health gauge” within the lore….

    I want to know where the characters say this.

  55. Ragnorke July 29, 2015 at 7:35 pm -      #455

    @Kitten
    “That is not how it works. Whether or not I can prove my claim does not automatically make yours “proven”, until you know, you actually prove it. Your entire stance is conjecture at best. Baseless guessing and verbatum at worse, which is what I am leaning towards.”

    Me saying Kain exists at one place at a time, because his consciousness & awareness only experiences & perceives what’s around his body is not baseless. It’s proven by his actions and statements, It’s how his character is written.
    You trying to say otherwise is what’s baseless.

    “opinion/conjecture.”

    I guess i’ll just copy/paste what i said since you have no real rebuttal then. Hopefully you get a better one this time.
    2 branches, meaning 2 possibilities. One a stronger interpretation, one a weaker one.

    Stronger Interpretation: An opinion which no one has to accept due to lack of proof.
    If we go off into 2 branches, and Kain “wins” via this stronger interpretation, Kain does not actually receive the win at all, since it cannot be proven that he’s capable of this.
    Therefore making this entire branch meaningless, since it can never contribute to Kains victory (or defeat).

    Weaker Interpretation: A possibility which would be considered a “bare minimum” of what Kain can do, since he has undeniably performed it (or possibly something even more impressive)
    Therefor it HAS to be accepted by everyone on the opposing team.
    Therefor it can contribute to Kains victory. Making this Branch relevant.

    Characters don’t get “Half” a win, based on a “what if…”.
    Assumptions by their very definition are based on Opinions, and unfortunately for you Opinions don’t win matches on BankGambling.
    Don’t like it? Leave the fucking site or go bitch to Admin about it.

    “It completely negates your point on asking how stable it is. If the structure was not stable, shaking it with a quake of force should have collapsed it.”

    Stability isn’t a single line where an object is either “stable” or “unstable”, degrees of stability exist in everything. In fact no object is perfectly stable.
    The pillar was simply shaking because not enough Force was being applied, or because the Force wasn’t applied for long enough yet.
    This doesn’t prove that it was very stable, not by a long shot.
    Do you have any proof as to exactly how much force Kain was exerting? Of course you don’t. So stop fucking acting like you do.

    “What a reach, to the extreme. So large solid chunks of limestone are brittle according to you, and somehow just shatter because? I dont know, Kain removed a smell piece? What a load of nonsense.”

    1. Provide your proof that it was limestone without a shadow of a doubt.
    2. Provide your proof that it was 100% solid blocks, and that no cavities existed.
    3. Blasting a pressure point towards the bottom of a structure can easily cause it to collapse on itself. The heavier & less stable the object is, the more likely this is to happen.

    Load of nonesense? Go back to your kindergarten science class kiddo.
    Of course when you can’t counter anything i say with actual science or scientific theories, you just try to shrug it off as nonsense.
    The truth is that you don’t jack shit about what you’re dealing with here, and you’re trying your best to bullshit your away around all my arguments because your simple mind can barely comprehend them.

    “Well of course you do. You cant seem to understand the physics here.”

    You seem to think the entire pillar broke apart, from top to bottom, INSTANTLY. As in, within the same millisecond.
    I paused it frame by frame, and that was not the case. It began from a lower point.
    I don’t understand the physics here? You’re blinded by Kains cumshot over your face. Not me.

    “Shit really, because all I see is weird links that do not provide proof for any of your claims, which are just stacking up and up.”

    I legitimately don’t need to prove anything until you provide a solid calc first. Once you provide a calc, i can start debunking it.
    You keep making these positive claims about how strong Kains TK is based on your retarded misinterpretation of a calc.
    So far, the only calc you keep bringing up, is a calc from Mea which was used to measure the WEIGHT of the pillar, not how much force Kains TK was creating..
    1. Mea ADMIT you were using that calc incorrectly.
    2. Mea admit to the possibility of the formation just being unstable.
    3. Mea used an assumption/guesswork to gauge its denisty.
    4. Mea assumed the formation had no cavities.
    I know more about his calculation than you would if you spend the next 5 years reading it back and forth.

    “Not just externally, internally as well as we can see the large piecies Kain breaks off are solid on the inside as well. Its not like the blocks of stone you see coming off are tons of small piecies or are hollow. Each piece as it flies off can be seen as solid”

    Cavities aren’t fucking man sized caves. You realize that right?
    They could be microscopic or a millimeter in diameter, but there could still be hundreds or thousands of them.
    Most natural rock formations DO have cavities, and assuming otherwise is:
    1. You being ignorant.
    2. You being stupid.

    ” Stability is covered by it being able to take someone quaking it with audiable quaking without breaking.”

    Except this doesn’t prove how stable it was at all.
    I could equally claim that Kain was just using a really weak TK Force. Just enough to shake the unstable formation, but not enough to break it.
    And that when it finally broke, it was due to increased time under pressure, or due to Kain applying a greater force.

    “If so its surprising you struggle to find proof of what your claiming.”

    Technically, you haven’t backed up your positive claim with correct calcs to begin with…. So i really don’t need to do anything aside from call you a dumb fuck at this point, and i’d still be right.

    “Also Kain hardly “fights” humans any more than humans fight ants, or I fight my opposition in a debate, its just that effortless. ”

    Yet you refuse my offer of betting $300 dollars on whether Admin agrees with you or not,
    And you refuse my offer of paying for all your living expenses if you can get me a correct calc regarding the rock, so:
    1. You know you’re wrong, but don’t have the balls to admit it at this point because we’re all going to point at you and piss ourselves laughing.
    2. You’re a troll.

  56. Amm0vamp1r3 July 29, 2015 at 7:39 pm -      #456

    Of course he has a “life force”, he has a soul. That is not what is being discussed. Friendly said they use “health gauge” within the lore….

    Well technically life force is
    “the force or influence that gives something its vitality or strength”
    and for Kain and the rest of the vampires that’s blood, they get their strength and vitality from blood also supported by the fact that the item he gets where he says that particular quote is an item that increases the amount of blood he can hold. Nothing about a soul

  57. Kara Zor-El July 29, 2015 at 7:43 pm -      #457

    “Not really, there is just a page in the manuel for each “control” the player has to do. Nothing in any source says blood is different than Tk in terms of manipulation.”
    _
    Okay. If Blood Drain is TK, why is it not mentioned, ever, whenever anything TK is brought up. Page 15, which is all about TK states “Both Kain and Raziel employ Telekentic force to hurl enemies away or shatter obstacles” No mention of Blood Drinking.
    _
    It then goes on to say “Initially, Kain’s TK powers are much more developed than Raziel’s. From the beginning, Kain can swiftly blast enemies away, or lift them into the air and hurl them in any direction. Early on, he acquires the ability to ignite or douse certain flammable objects using TK” Again, no mention of Blood Drinking.
    _
    If Kains Blood Drinking is a form of TK usage then why isn’t it mentioned on the TK page? Why is it mentioned on a separate page under ‘Kain’s Unique Abilities’ ? Even more critically now that I think about it, whenever Kain uses his TK his TK bar goes down, showing he’s using his TK. When Blood Drinking, the bar doesn’t go down, he’s not using his TK.
    _
    “Really? how can you read a passage that is talking about “health gauge” as lore and canon?”

    Because it’s describing the ability and it’s uses. Which translates directly into the game. It’s cannon his health diminishes moment to moment. It’s cannon he has to feed. It’s cannon he can only feed under certain conditions. It’s been that way throughout the entire series.
    _
    “They prove speed.”

    Your interpretation of their speed.
    _
    “Well ok, quote it to me. Tell me the post number….ill wait patiently…”
    _
    Numinous @90 and @212 showing feats for DBZ speeds.

  58. AbsoluteZero July 29, 2015 at 7:45 pm -      #458

    I’ve noticed a lack of people bringing up Kain’s crippling weakness in regards to water. So, yeah. I’ve brought that up. Have fun with that.

    By Kain’s admission, “The touch of water is like acid to a vampire, I’ll have to find another way.”

  59. Friendlysociopath July 29, 2015 at 7:46 pm -      #459

    The manual merely points out that if Kain happens to get damaged he can drink blood.

    And in-game dialogue with characters shows that the health gauge represents how much blood Kain has.

    “Umah: “Blood is your life. Without it, you will die. If you are wounded, seek out blood to restore your vitality.”
    “Blood Gout – Kain: This spell allows me to use blood from my own body as a weapon. When struck, my enemies’ blood would flow from their bodies to fill me with life. ‘Tis a risk, yet the rewards are a temptation.”
    “Raziel The Humans think it is a poison of the blood that makes us what we are. Fools, the blood only feeds the bodies we live in. To create a vampire, one must steal a soul from the abyss to reanimate the corpse. It is the body that demands the blood sacrifice; our souls gain their advantage from the powers of the underworld ”

    So they establish that a vampire’s life comes from the blood they have in them.
    And the manual states Kain’s blood is the same as his health meter. Which is further supported by the meter refilling when Kain drinks blood.

    Blood Types: Red Blood “Increases the Kain’s Blood vial (Health Meter).”
    Blood Types: Green Blood “Poison. If Kain absorbs any green blood, his blood vial turns green and blood loss accelerates until Kain heals himself with Anti-Toxin.”
    Blood Types: Black Blood “Decreases Kain’s Blood Vial (Health Meter).”
    “The Blood Vial; also known as the Blood Meter, Blood Bar or simply Health Gauge”

    So we know Kain’s bar is canon unto him, and we know he gets hurt and needs to refill it.
    Just like we know MC’s energy shield exists- because characters refer to it.

  60. Kitten Lord July 29, 2015 at 7:52 pm -      #460

    @Rag

    “Me saying Kain exists at one place at a time, because his consciousness & awareness only experiences & perceives what’s around his body is not baseless.”

    It has no connection whatsoever to what we were discussing. His body is not what is touching or interacting with an object, his “will” is creating another force on an object. So going on and on about how Kain has a body is just verbatum.

    “I guess i’ll just copy/paste”

    All you do is guess, that is the problem. And your guesses just happen to be awful. Ill copy and paste to you too because what your doing has not changed, your fallaciously labeling one thing as better because you think it is;

    opinion/conjecture

    “Do you have any proof as to exactly how much force Kain was exerting?”

    Enough to create a quaking sound as he shook several hundred tons of material. That is a lot of force.

    “1. Provide your proof that it was limestone without a shadow of a doubt.”

    Well gee, lets see;


    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalactite

    So its either limestone, which is the most common by far, lava, which is impossible since there is no volcanic activity in the region, like this is literally in a cavern under a building. So at best, we have it could be either limestone or concrete, and considering limestone is like massively common and these look like regular ones, its limestone.


    “2. Provide your proof that it was 100% solid blocks”

    Its there in the video, we can see the solid blocks.

    ” can easily cause it to collapse on itself.”

    You keep saying collapse on itself but it did not, it got blasted off the perch it was on. The connection between the top and bottom was just suddenly gone and all the piecies were launched where kain wanted them to be.

    “I paused it frame by frame, and that was not the case”

    I did the same and it was the case. Your just stubborn and will not admit it.

    “I legitimately don’t need to prove anything”

    Yeah you kind of do. You make huge numbers of claims. Go and prove your damn claims or leave the site, this is not “opinion pile” honey.

    “Cavities aren’t fucking caves. You realize that right?”

    If that block was riddled with microscopic flaws in it that made it really weak then it should have broken into far smaller parts. Especially when launched so hard and fast all of a sudden.

    “So i really don’t need to do anything aside from call you a dumb fuck”

    You could look up the rules of the site or at the top of the page about civil debate my little sweet heart you.

    “Yet you refuse my offer of betting $300 dollars ”

    Oh come on, you have made so much nonsense claims and statements, how could I possibly accept this offer when I cannot even trust you to debate properly let alone pay anything financially?

  61. AbsoluteZero July 29, 2015 at 7:59 pm -      #461

    Oh no! A rock! TK! However will they co-

    youtu.be/bxRZm-wUcGk

    Says something about durability.

  62. Amm0vamp1r3 July 29, 2015 at 8:00 pm -      #462

    To continue on the vein (get it vein haHA!) of life force being = to blood
    you have the following quotes
    Umah: “Blood is your life. Without it, you will die. If you are wounded, seek out blood to restore your vitality. You must know, too, that by drinking the blood of others, you will gradually become stronger, and harder to kill. We call this a vampire’s Lore. The more creatures you drink from, the more Lore you will gain, and the greater your health will become. Leave no enemy alive, Kain. You will need their blood and their Lore to survive. Now, let us continue.” Blood Omen 2.

    JANOS
    Not dead, but imprisoned in this place. My blood was needed to power the device, and feed the Mass within. Starved of blood and sapped of life, I devolved into that horrible creature. The moment you poisoned the Mass, I felt my strength return. That which is divine cannot be wholly suppressed.


    Two quotes that mention: Life, Strength, Vitality and Health all when talking about Blood


    Ninja’d

  63. Kitten Lord July 29, 2015 at 8:08 pm -      #463

    @kara

    “No mention of Blood Drinking.”

    Well because its on another page. They only have so much space on each page….

    “When Blood Drinking, the bar doesn’t go down, he’s not using his TK.”


    Again more in-game mechanics. Or you know, drinking blood requires like no effort at all or the devs did not want to limit the players healing capabilities or make the system any more complicated…

    ” It’s cannon ”

    Its canon that Kain can drain blood, that is all we know. Anything that limits the player in-game alone and is not hinted at or shown in the lore at all is just that, mechanics.

    When he used blood shower in BO 1, it was OP as hell. So they did not let him use his TK like that in-game for Defiance. For good reason, because how boring would it be to just enter each room and just hold down “i”?

    “Your interpretation of their speed.”

    No, I have time and distance so its their speed. When you have time and distance you can get a mathematical fact for speed. Which is what I have for Beerus. Which as far as DBZ goes is as shown the peak of the series.

    Also love to hear your explanation to why everything I posted is interpretation but Numin has “proof”……apparently that is not his interpretation but mine is…funny how that works out….

    “Numinous @90 and @212 showing feats for DBZ speeds.”

    Looks like his assumptions and conjecture on scenes. Just like you called mine, only I countered his while my posts stand as they always have…oh well…

    Also 212 is one of my posts.

    @Friendly

    “So they establish that a vampire’s life comes from the blood they have in them.”

    Yeah buddy we already know they drink blood to sustain their bodies. Thanks for reminding us with those quotes of the obvious.

    This has no gauge on health bars. This has no gauge on how much damage kain takes within the mechanics of the game.

    “So we know Kain’s bar is canon unto him”

    How do we know your still listing gameplay descriptions. Ammo posted the sort of things Kain says, ergo “life force”, he does not say “my blood vial needs filling”…

    “ust like we know MC’s energy shield exists- because characters refer to it.”

    I am not a halo fan but I am pretty sure it exists because somewhere in the game it tells you within the lore his armour has a shield…

    Just a hunch.

    We know that in every game characters have a “health meter” that represents their life. Dante, Kratos, Dracula etc ec etc and it goes down when your damaged in the game. This is mechanics.

    Blow X does xxx damage to your health bar. This is the same thing for Kain. There is no canon showing of Kain being hit by a human, only superhumans since becoming an Elder.

    The only time he got injured was when fightin william. Remember the sword that you know, hits you with energy that blasts your skeleton out of your body/distigrates you, devours your soul etc? Kain tanked it without anything more than minor injuries that he healed by drinking a guard or two from.

    That is the only canon time he is hit bya human with a super sword and the result is that again, Kain is super durable even before his Raziel super petapascal buff.

    @Zero

    “Says something about durability.”

    Not really. The rock that hit goku did not crack or break. So the force or pressure of it hitting him was relatively low. Not quite “rock cracking”.

    I have shown Kain rock cracking.

  64. Ragnorke July 29, 2015 at 8:23 pm -      #464

    @Kitten
    “It has no connection whatsoever to what we were discussing. His body is not what is touching or interacting with an object, his “will” is creating another force on an object. So going on and on about how Kain has a body is just verbatum.”

    His will which originates from his “spirit” apparently, which only exists at a single point in space at a time, which is at the point of his body.
    2 points in space. Distance still a factor.

    “your fallaciously labeling one thing as better because you think it is;”

    It is objectively better. It’s the exact same thing, only more precise, much more precise, on a cellular level.
    And we have no reason to accept it being that precise when there’s a less precise alternative possibility which would achieve the exact same result.
    Why? For the reasons i mentioned above, which you STILL have not countered.

    “Enough to create a quaking sound as he shook several hundred tons of material. That is a lot of force.”

    Sounds can be game-mechanics, since it was mid gameplay, so there goes that.
    But assuming it wasn’t game mechanics, you still haven’t proved it was Kain “shaking” the several hundred tons of material.
    Kain could have been shaking a TINY part of it, which could lead to the rest of it shaking too, because it could have been fucking INSTABLE.

    “So its either limestone, which is the most common by far, lava, which is impossible since there is no volcanic activity in the region, like this is literally in a cavern under a building. So at best, we have it could be either limestone or concrete, and considering limestone is like massively common and these look like regular ones, its limestone.”

    1. There doesn’t currently need to be any volcanic activity for there to have been some volcanic activity in the past. Rock formations don’t form over night.
    2. Not all stone pillars are Stalactites to begin with.

    “Its there in the video, we can see the solid blocks.”

    Unless you have superman level eye-sight, i don’t see how that video proves this.

    “You keep saying collapse on itself but it did not, it got blasted off the perch it was on. The connection between the top and bottom was just suddenly gone and all the piecies were launched where kain wanted them to be.”

    1. It did collapse. Without a doubt.
    2. The entire area wasn’t “suddenly gone” simultaneously. The Frames disagree with you.
    3. Friction & Impulse from a part being blasted to one side caused the rest to blast towards the same side.

    ” Your just stubborn and will not admit it.”

    HAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

    “Yeah you kind of do. You make huge numbers of claims. Go and prove your damn claims or leave the site, this is not “opinion pile” honey.”

    So… Let me get this straight… You haven’t done a single valid calc… You keep making POSITIVE CLAIMS about Kains TK… Without backing them up with science… and you want ME to post proof? When i’m asking you to provide the fucking calcs?

    No.
    You claimed Kains TK is in the hundred ton Newton range, so fucking prove it with calcs.
    Once you attempt to prove it, i’ll shit on your calcs just like everyone here has been shitting on your pathetic arguments.

    So far, the only calc you keep bringing up, is a calc from Mea which was used to measure the WEIGHT of the pillar, not how much force Kains TK was creating..
    1. Mea ADMIT you were using that calc incorrectly.
    2. Mea admit to the possibility of the formation just being unstable.
    3. Mea used an assumption/guesswork to gauge its denisty.
    4. Mea assumed the formation had no cavities.
    (you conveniently didn’t address this.)

    “If that block was riddled with microscopic flaws in it that made it really weak then it should have broken into far smaller parts”

    It did break into several pieces. Just how many pieces it should have broken into depends on several other variables,
    Such as just how unstable the formation was, exactly where the Force was applied, how large the Force was, and the exact location & size of the cavities. None of which you have the answers to.

    So, we’re really back to square one:
    1. Stability- You’re assuming it’s stable without having anything to back that point.

    2. Density- You’re assuming it’s limestone without a shadow of a doubt. Because limestone is the most common Stalactite formation. When the pillar need not be Stalactite to begin with.

    3. Brittleness- You’re assuming it was a perfectly whole piece of rock without any cavities, which is naturally almost impossible to occur.

    4. Pressure Points- You’re assuming the structure had no weak points, despite it clearly not being perfectly symmetrical (which factually does mean it would have pressure/weak points).

    5. Where’s the fucking Calc smart ass?
    If you use Meas calc again i’ll think you’re retarded, since it doesn’t even begin to calculate the Force needed to do what you claim Kain did.
    It literally just calculated the ASSUMED weight of the formation, and the ASSUMED force needed to lift it vertically against gravity.
    Which… Is… totally fucking irrelevant to what you’re claiming.

  65. Kara Zor-El July 29, 2015 at 8:27 pm -      #465

    “Well because its on another page. They only have so much space on each page….”
    _
    Then it would have continued over the page and not needed a new title. A new title shows that we’ve stopped talking about TK abilities and are now talking about different abilities.
    _
    “Again more in-game mechanics. Or you know, drinking blood requires like no effort at all or the devs did not want to limit the players healing capabilities or make the system any more complicated…”
    _
    In-game mechanics they might be, but they also show us which abilities are TK based and which are not, based on his bar usage. The rest is pure speculation.
    _
    “Also 212 is one of my posts.”
    _
    I meant 218, not sure why I hit 212. My bad.

  66. Ragnorke July 29, 2015 at 8:29 pm -      #466

    So, how many votes do we currently have for DBZ btw?

    5? 6? More?

  67. Friendlysociopath July 29, 2015 at 8:39 pm -      #467

    So, how many votes do we currently have for DBZ btw?

    Enough. We’ve had enough since page 1. The only person opposed is the Kitten. Kain has lost as determined by BankGambling. Kitten didn’t debate well enough to prove Kain can win.

    This is never going to end. You all get that right? Kitten doesn’t accept that he’s wrong- either because he doesn’t believe he’s wrong or because he’s a troll.

  68. Amm0vamp1r3 July 29, 2015 at 8:45 pm -      #468

    It doesn’t matter what kitten thinks actually, Its a majority rule thing.

    If it wasn’t Dante would have never lost any fight with chuck here
    Kratos wouldn’t have lost with Rhododendron
    And with me here no vampire would be taking an L (lol)

    but votes declare the winner

  69. AbsoluteZero July 29, 2015 at 8:47 pm -      #469

    @Friendly

    Pretty much that. The only way it’s ever going to come close to a win is for us all to stop responding to Kitten. DBZ was hugely voted the victors awhile ago, and Kitten has done nothing to change that. Kitten declaring Kain the winner also means nothing, due to the large amount of debaters already having sided with DBZ.

    I for one, will stop posting here, to stop feeding the fire. I’ve thrown my vote behind DBZ winning easily.

  70. Mea quidem sententia July 29, 2015 at 8:50 pm -      #470

    Limestone has a tensile strength of 5 to 25 MPa. If we use 25 MPa, and if we say Kain’s hand is 12 cm^2 * 12 cm^2 (assuming his fingers are spread out so that all his fingertips are pointing forward as if he was about to grab something), then the force he would produce would be 360 kilonewtons, or 40.47 tons-force.

    www.academia.edu/4156626/Some_Useful_Numbers_on_the_Engineering_Properties_of_Materials_Geologic_and_Otherwise_Angle_of_internal_friction

  71. Mea quidem sententia July 29, 2015 at 8:55 pm -      #471

    Also, again, +1 for DBZ.

    Low-end for the same calculation would be 72,000 N, or 8.09 tons-force.

  72. Numinous One July 29, 2015 at 10:11 pm -      #472

    “Looks like his assumptions and conjecture on scenes”

    lolwut.

    #90.
    The only assumption there was using the absolute minimum timeframe for Gotenks lapping the Earth, all else was me stating exactly what is happening on panel.

    #218
    Oh look, the only assumption there was the exact same assumption from post #90.
    But wait, you didn’t counter anything, you fucking acknowledged the outcome.
    Well ok? maybe he did go Mach 829? maybe he did…so what?
    Try to be a little consistant Kitty.

  73. hellboy147 July 29, 2015 at 11:00 pm -      #473

    1+ for dbz we have around 7 votes now

  74. CH1C4N0444 is allergic to bullets July 29, 2015 at 11:08 pm -      #474

    +1 to DBZ for the FP Stomp award.

  75. Nobunaga Jin July 30, 2015 at 12:49 am -      #475

    Aaaand, now Yamcha can fly. There. I pitched in my useless 2 cents (that address an old argument, and even if it was new, it would’ve been insignificant compared to the main argument).

  76. Kitten Lord July 30, 2015 at 3:56 am -      #476

    @Rag

    “which is at the point of his body.”

    The fact its linked/bound to his body does not mean its in the same physical location as his body. Your making that assertion, prove the soul fills the “area” of space time as your body.

    “2 points in space”

    Youve not actually explained how there being “two points” in space suddenly makes range an issue either. Even if this were the case, even if TK was the result of physical emotion produced chemicals in kains head, relaying the “TK” chemical as it were, this does not prove greater and greater distances are an issue for TK.

    The limit would still only be what I said before, that Kain himself can only percieve so far, so he can only TK so far. Anything beyond the horizon or where he cannot see it, he cannot.

    “It is objectively better.”

    Based on your opinion again.

    “Kain could have been shaking a TINY part of it, ”

    No you can see hes shaking all of it. The whole lot is moving up and down the pillar, and only when Kain focuses on it.

    “1. There doesn’t currently need to be any volcanic activity for there to have been some volcanic activity in the past. Rock formations don’t form over night.
    2. Not all stone pillars are Stalactites to begin with.”

    There is no volcano or sort of large geo form object in that region. If you read the source they also look completely different to the limestone ones. nothing like the ones in the game. Which look more or less exactly like limestone ones. You know, the common ones.

    “1. It did collapse. Without a doubt.”

    If it just collapsed it would not have been launched into piecies within a second into the water in one direction. Infact, it goes in the wrong direction, you know with kains TK pushing it than you would think if he was pushing it from that crack in the side.

    “You claimed Kains TK is in the hundred ton Newton range, so fucking prove it with calcs.”

    It is proven and the logic is sound. You keep bringing up a bunch of other claims into the mix and then try and pretend like that proves the calc wrong, it does not. Your just making comments and claims.

    Its like me constantly asking you to “prove” that planet Superman punched was durable and not smothered in tiny cracks that made the feat a joke.

    “It did break into several pieces”

    Yeah huge piecies, which are flying through the air.

    “So, we’re really back to square one:”

    Yeah, you wasting my valuable time.

    1- Something taking someone physically shaking the structure until it quakes sort of proves its stable.

    2- It looks exactly like a limestone stalactite. What else could it be according to you?

    3- I am not assuming, I can see it when it breaks that it appears solid. And if it was not solid, then it should have fallen apart far easier from just shaking if it was so full of structural flaws.

    @Kara

    “Then it would have continued over the page and not needed a new title. A new title shows that we’ve stopped talking about TK abilities and are now talking about different abilities”

    Or we have just changed the subject on what TK is affecting. One page is refering to TKing guards and objects, the other about blood.

    @Ammo

    “but votes declare the winner”

    They can but they should not do according to the rules. Ill just direct Admin to my super post and that should do the rest. Nobody has really even argued how Kain loses without the traditional assumption of them being too powerful. The last few pages has been purely on them making a fallacy about adding things through conjecture that are not there in the scenes.

    @Numin

    “lolwut.”

    Kara does not acknowledge any annotation by a debater as anything other than conjecture and assumption.

    Also the gotenks thing may have not been assumed, but the whole thing at the bottom was.

  77. Numinous One July 30, 2015 at 4:30 am -      #477

    “but the whole thing at the bottom was.”

    Mmmm, nope.
    Super gave us several FTL feats, admittedly uncalcable, but still blatantly FTL.
    This is not an assumption, even if you want to cling to some fragile notion that Beerus used an ability that has never been shown, mentioned or hinted at to travel to a different solar system in under two minutes, Whis has used warp multiple times.
    Beerus can also dodge electricity at close range in Super.
    This also happened, I showed you it. It is not an assumption, it happened on screen.
    For those interested who may have missed it.
    16:25 onwards.
    m.youtube.com/watch?v=QTRAJz6zbFs
    Though I’ll admit calling it electricity is probably incorrect, but given the creature utilizes fire, it’s likely to be a plasmic discharge of sorts.
    The visuals match that anyway.
    That was an assumption Kitty.
    DBS is also more recent than BoG so these feats should take precedence by Kitty’s logic.
    DBS is more recent, and you used the reasoning that more recent feats take precedence over a decades worth of feats.
    This was also no assumption.

    So no, no assumptions out of the italicized statements.

  78. Kitten Lord July 30, 2015 at 4:46 am -      #478

    @Nuimin

    “This is not an assumption”

    Yes it is, you admit its not calcable. Then you also admit you cannot prove the speed. Tip for the future, do what I do, find a scene that you can see time and distance in and then calc speed. If you cannot find those two values then you do not have speed.

    “ragile notion that Beerus used an ability that has never been shown,”

    Like FTL travel. He relies on Whis for that.

    “So no, no assumptions out of the italicized statements.”

    Which proves you do not know what an assumption is. Your using a combination of assumption and conjecture. Your scene does not prove, unlike mine do what your saying. You cannot say “oh but we cannot calculate Beerus moving there, it just “is” FTL because I think it is! hur hur!” and expect me to take it as face value.

    “This also happened, I showed you it. It is not an assumption, it happened on screen.”

    lmao you literally just admitted that calling it electricity was an assumption. it was also pure conjecture.

    I also proved by slowing it down that the bolt of “energy” w/e it is is not that fast and later the fire easily hits Beerus.

  79. Numinous One July 30, 2015 at 5:37 am -      #479

    Good job nitpicking, A+.
    Addressing the topic though? Not so great.
    The topic being speed feats.

    “Yes it is, you admit its not calcable.”

    Super gave us several FTL feats, admittedly uncalcable, but still blatantly FTL.
    So Whis using warp to cross a galactic distance in under 30minutes isn’t FTL?
    Whis traversing Solar Systems in minutes isn’t FTL?
    K.
    Cause those are included in the above statement.

    You do realize Whis requires the appropriate reactions to avoid crashing into shit like asteroids right?

    “You cannot say “oh but we cannot calculate Beerus moving there, it just “is” FTL because I think it is! hur hur!” and expect me to take it as face value.”

    But I can, the only reason we can’t calc it is because we don’t know the exact distance.
    Tell me, honestly, do you believe traversing lightyears in minutes is not FTL?
    Because that isn’t me assuming something, that is simple math.

    “lmao you literally just admitted that calling it electricity was an assumption”

    Yes, but again, you failed to address the context what this was brought up in.
    Kara refered to this for showings of speed.
    Beerus dodging something is a showing of speed.
    You claimed everything I said was either an assumption or conjecture.
    I addressed that comment in regards to the original context. The feats.
    That’s why I remidied the statement and proposed a logical alternative to support the feat.
    Try addressing things in the intended context.

    “I also proved by slowing it down that the bolt of “energy””

    Simply slowing down the video doesn’t prove anything. This is the same series where FTL objects are able to be seen quite easily.
    Using that reasoning you could slow down any video with any of the multiple FTL Kamehameha’s, the Namekian Ship, Dr. Brief’s ship or Whis traveling and say they’re no longer FTL.
    It doesn’t work that way, so why should it here.

    “later the fire easily hits Beerus.”

    The one he tanked after getting bored of jumping around? Yes it hit him, and yet it was slower than the bolts he was dodging. Bearing in mind the context of that scene you’d think he didn’t care at that point.
    Oh wait, he doesn’t, he said as much by admitting he was bored of that guy.

  80. Kitten Lord July 30, 2015 at 5:47 am -      #480

    @Numin

    “Cause those are included in the above statement.”

    Nice dodge but you were using Beerus as an example. You said he clearly moves FTL right? If not then we agree, Whis can, with warp…

    I was under the impression you thought Beerus was FTL…

    “Cause those are included in the above statement.”

    This is conjecture. We do not know if he ever comes into the path of an asteroid and has to react to it. Whenever we see him he is just casually flying along.

    “But I can, the only reason we can’t calc it is because we don’t know the exact distance.”

    So we don’t know distance, which is how you get speed, distance over time.

    “Tell me, honestly, do you believe traversing lightyears in minutes is not FTL?”

    Depends how you traverse it. If your literally travelling in space from two points then it is FTL, But in fiction I would not assume any travel between two points in space has to be FTL.

    “Beerus dodging something is a showing of speed.”

    Obviously, but I was refering to your conjecture on what speed he was moving based on the dodging.

    Stop trying to red herring and straw man me into oblivion, its tiresome.

    “Simply slowing down the video doesn’t prove anything. ”

    It does, if you slow down something that is too fast for you to watch at one second, down to a quarter of a second, and then see it, then we know it moves what, 10-20 meters in a quarter second or thereabouts.

    “Using that reasoning you could slow down any video with any of the multiple FTL Kamehameha’s, the Namekian Ship, Dr. Brief’s ship or Whis traveling and say they’re no longer FTL.”

    If its moving FTL then slowing it down to 0.25 seconds would still leave it impercievable.

    ” and yet it was slower than the bolts he was dodging”

    Maybe, can you be sure? Honestly, its hard to say because we do not see Beerus at the same time as the fire comes out of the things mouth, we see a close up of this thing, it opens its mouth and spits fire, then we see Beerus just getting hit.

    “Oh wait, he doesn’t, he said as much by admitting he was bored of that guy.”

    Sure he was bored. So what? He had never seen that attack before, same with the energy attack yet he dodges and blocks attacks throughout the scene.

    Also you talk of context but you realize when I pulled Kara up on her claim I was refering to the fact she said Mea did calcs that prove DBZ faster than what I said, clearly not realizing that Mea did the calc I was using.

    She then handwaved over to you as if that proved my calcs on Beerus were incorrect…

    Or that my proof in my super post were incorrect which it does not. All your scans show is that Gotenks, someone not in the thread can move at high speeds in travel, outsdie of the atmosphere. Very specific scenario.

  81. Numinous One July 30, 2015 at 6:27 am -      #481

    “Nice dodge but you were using Beerus as an example. You said he clearly moves FTL right? If not then we agree, Whis can, with warp…”

    Super gave us several FTL feats, admittedly uncalcable, but still blatantly FTL.
    This is the original statement. This is the one you called an assumption.
    Nowhere did I specify. I was refering to the series as a whole, clearly. Not Whis, Not Beerus, but Super .
    This was the follow up statement, where I actually did specify, both Beerus and Whis.
    This is not an assumption, even if you want to cling to some fragile notion that Beerus used an ability that has never been shown, mentioned or hinted at to travel to a different solar system in under two minutes, Whis has used warp multiple times.

    But yes, I do believe Beerus to have FTL travel.

    “Whenever we see him he is just casually flying along.”

    Except that time he swooped in on the planet, weaving around.

    “then we know it moves what, 10-20 meters in a quarter second or thereabouts.”

    But you would need to know a timeframe of the events taking place for that to be applicable. Which we don’t in this scene.
    That’s why I’m relying on the nature of the attack.

    “If its moving FTL then slowing it down to 0.25 seconds would still leave it impercievable.”

    Except I just gave you examples of why that line of thought doesn’t work in this series.
    Multiple Kamehameha’s reaching the sun in seconds.
    Namekian spaceship reaching Jupiter from Earth in 1 minute, taking 30days to reach Namek from Earth.
    Brief’s ship only takes 5 days to reach Namek from Earth.
    Whis is pretty self explanatory at this stage.
    All of these, are perfectly visible. Yet they are all clearly FTL.
    That’s why I said simply slowing down a video doesn’t consitute proof of speed in this series.

    “Maybe, can you be sure?”

    Reasonably sure, yes.
    The first time the fire attack is used you can gauge the speed based on the “waves” emanating along it that originate from the mouth.
    The second time it’s used you can see it before Beerus redirects it.

    “Sure he was bored. So what? He had never seen that attack before, same with the energy attack yet he dodges and blocks attacks throughout the scene.”

    Yes, difference being is that he was happy enough to jump around those bolts, then all of a sudden announced he’s bored and stopped moving, only moving afterwards to get clear of the smoke.
    Whether or not he’d seen them before makes no difference.

    “She then handwaved over to you as if that proved my calcs on Beerus were incorrect…”

    I’m aware.
    I only got involved because you then tried to handwave everything I’d said as assumptions and conjecture, which is blatantly false.

  82. Kara Zor-El July 30, 2015 at 6:30 am -      #482

    “Or we have just changed the subject on what TK is affecting. One page is refering to TKing guards and objects, the other about blood.”
    _
    Only it’s not, and we know it’s not because TK isn’t mentioned when talking about Blood. Also it’s not a minor title change, it’s a major title change. TK is over, new abilities are being talked about. It’s there in the manual, you just don’t want to accept it.
    _
    “Kara does not acknowledge any annotation by a debater as anything other than conjecture and assumption.”
    _
    Nice Bullshit Kitten. If I thought everyone’s argument was conjecture and assumption, why would I use Numins arguments as proof? The point is, everyone picks apart your weak arguments, I’m not the only one calling them into question. You’re the only one to call Numins into question. Seems that yours are bullshit and his aren’t and everyone but you can see it. You’re like a creationist or flat-earther. You have your “evidence” and nothing will supplant it. It’s ‘true’ because you believe it to be true, rather than it actually being true.
    _
    Have a nice day Kitten, I don’t have much time for debating today.

  83. Kitten Lord July 30, 2015 at 9:15 am -      #483

    @Numin


    “both Beerus and Whis.
    This is not an assumption, even if you want to cling to some fragile notion that Beerus used an ability that has never been shown”

    Yeah thought so, like FTL, an ability he has never shown.

    “Except that time he swooped in on the planet, weaving around.”

    Well yeah, i thought we were talking”at FTL”

    “But you would need to know a timeframe of the events.”

    Unless we have something showing us time is slowed then it is not. Otherwise every speed feat becomes useless unless there is some piece of debris or object moving as if it were in normal time, like the debris we see flying up when the bolt hits.

    “Multiple Kamehameha’s reaching the sun in seconds.”

    When did that happen in canon?

    “All of these, are perfectly visible. Yet they are all clearly FTL.”

    Which is not the case for other speed feats. If its “clear” based on the knowledge of distance and time then how it looks is irrelevant if the series specifically says it is FTL.

    “Whether or not he’d seen them before makes no difference.”

    It does because tis an element of surprise. He did not know that this thing could breath fire, all of a sudden it does.

    @Kara

    ” we know it’s not because TK isn’t mentioned when talking about Blood”

    Its like literally overleaf of the page. You do not have to say the words “TK” every time something related to TK is mentioned. Any object by defintion being moved with the mind from a distance is TK, its simply what TK is, and your argument that this is not the case is that blood just happens to be mentioned on the next page…….

    God awful logic sorry…

    And the title change is because they go on to talk about unique abilities. Raziel cannot TK blood, so it cannot be mentioned under the same thing as TK can it.

    “, why would I use Numins arguments as proof?”

    I was making fun of your massive double standard. You would use his argument because you do not have one apparently.

    “everyone picks apart your weak arguments”

    They try and fail, with their own conjecture and assumptions.

    “You’re the only one to call Numins into question”

    Appealing to popularity? It means nothing how many people belive something, or agree with something. Clearly its just a case of Numin not having recently grounded someone elses argument, which makes people puffy eyed.

    ” It’s ‘true’ because you believe it to be true, rather than it actually being true.”

    Its true by virtue of it being backed up by 40 or so sources and a massive respect thread full of sources. It will remain to be true until someone actually make a clever argument beyond fallacious conjecture.

    “Have a nice day Kitten”

    And you deary!

  84. Ragnorke July 30, 2015 at 10:51 am -      #484

    Numinous, Kara, Hellboy, CH1, Mea, AbsoluteZero, Ammo, Aelfinn, Friendly, Soulerous, Nsl, Lowk, Karren, Cross, Monochrome, Shadow-Knight & I…

    That’s 17 people i’m pretty sure have declared DBZ the winner. Most of whom did so again in the last 100 comments.
    And i’m sure i’m still missing people.

    Meaning Kitten has failed to convince 17 (minimum) debaters after 500 posts.
    And has successfully convinced a grand total of 0.

    Since all of his arguments have already been debunked as far as the 17 of us are concerned,
    we have no reason to continue going in circles,
    as we can just point Admin to Post #s if it comes to it.

    Speaking of Admin, that would be Kittens only way of getting Kain this win, aside from Kitten shouting “KAIN WINS CAUSE Y’ALL GAVE UP HURR DURR” as i’m sure he’s going to be doing.
    So honey bunny, lets make that bet $600 shall we?
    No one is going to continue this debate with you, so you might as well call Admin and end it.

    Just out of curiosity…
    Has a 17v1 ever happened before?
    Just goes to show how blinded with his own bullshit Kitten Lord really is.

  85. Commander Cross July 30, 2015 at 10:57 am -      #485

    @Ragnorke at #484

    See Rand al’Thor vs Richard Rahl for more details and info on that.

    This is likely gonna change a lot of Kain’s Past and Future Fights, isn’t it?

    Kain vs Kain, ends with Kain winning as either Kain Beats Kain in Kombat or both Kain and Kain work together towards common goals.

    I wonder how well would Kain vs Mortal Kombat Gauntlet go instead, if all MKers are at their strongest incarnations available.
    That gauntlet can definitely go either way unless LoK vs Mortal Kombat is better as a Universe War.
    If it’s just ‘First Death Wins,’ The Biggest Threats Kain or most LoK Champions would worry about would be either Liu Kang, Kung Lao or MKX Johnny Cage, but if it’s NOT 1st Death Wins, then it’s either Scorpion(strongest incarnations), Shao Kahn, or anyone and anything else with Powers affecting the Dead.

    Either way, I say it’s a fight that’ll go either way for quite sometime, but most of all, what says anyone to The Elder God vs The One Being by all means?

    If neither of the two Gnostic Demiurge!-inspired Beings have enough means to get rid of each other personally, they can just send out their potential Champions/Knights/Pawns at each other and see if it helps.

  86. Kitten Lord July 30, 2015 at 11:49 am -      #486

    @Rag

    “Meaning Kitten has failed to convince 17 (minimum) debaters after 500 posts.
    And has successfully convinced a grand total of 0.”

    This is impossible to prove. For all you know they are convinced but would rather DBZ win and me lose rather than give Kain the win, because like you I have burned several of those people.

    “as we can just point Admin to Post #s if it comes to it.”

    And I can do the same. My massive smackdown post will be most illuminating I am sure. All you have argued is semantics for pages.

    “So honey bunny, lets make that bet $600 shall we?”

    how will you give me $600 if Kain wins?

    “No one is going to continue this debate with you”

    Its not a debate. Its me trying to debate but only getting conjecture and fallacies in reply. I cannot call someone creating a wall of popular support and fallacies a debate. More a rabble trying to shout down logic.

  87. Ragnorke July 30, 2015 at 12:03 pm -      #487

    “how will you give me $600 if Kain wins?”

    Bank Transfer.
    Unless you live in your moms basement and don’t have a bank account. Which at this point wouldn’t surprise me.

    Will you message Admin or shall i?
    Actually, if it comes to messaging Admin, most people involved should do it so we all get our closing statements in.

    “And I can do the same. My massive smackdown post will be most illuminating I am sure. ”

    It’s pathetic how you still cling to the thought that you’re correct.
    I genuinely think i’m going to feel a bit sad when you get shat on.

    “This is impossible to prove. ”

    You’re saying… It’s impossible to prove… That the 17 people i mentioned think DBZ win… Despite them stating it multiple times & arguing against you for 500 comments…
    That is the dumbest thing i’v ever heard.
    I’m actually worried about you. Have you thought about going to a therapist?

  88. Kitten Lord July 30, 2015 at 12:06 pm -      #488

    Why would I get shat on when your the guy throwing out profanity and assaulting me against the site rules? If anything I would not be surprised after all this you get suspended or banned.

    “Will you message Admin or shall i?”

    I have done it already. Making sure to cover the points of contest.

  89. Ragnorke July 30, 2015 at 12:19 pm -      #489

    Just in case you don’t understand the concept of closing statements, you’re expected to leave them be without rebuttals.
    Meaning no nitpicking, no countering, no quoting. We’ve had 500 comments to do that.

    It’s debating etiquette and i’d expect you to follow it.

  90. CH1C4N0444 is allergic to bullets July 30, 2015 at 12:21 pm -      #490

    “So honey bunny, lets make that bet $600 shall we?”

    Don’t forget living expenses for the next year!
    =
    Not gonna lie, I kinda want DBZ to lose this now just to see if Rag really does pay for all those things.
    =
    @Rag I’d email Admin yourself anyways, just to make sure he gets both sides of the story. Not just one skewed vision of Kain.

  91. Ragnorke July 30, 2015 at 12:24 pm -      #491

    “Don’t forget living expenses for the next year!”

    That was only if Kitten could get me the correct calc from scratch, with all assumptions taken into consideration.
    Which he… surprise surprise… wasn’t able to do. So he ignored it all together.

    “Not gonna lie, I kinda want DBZ to lose this now just to see if Rag really does pay for all those things.”

    …You realize Kitten is expected to pay ME if he’s wrong right?
    That’s how bets work.
    I said we would bet $300 (later changed to $600) on whether Admin agrees with Kittens points or not. That’s a two way bet.

  92. CH1C4N0444 is allergic to bullets July 30, 2015 at 12:28 pm -      #492

    “That was only if Kitten could get me the correct calc from scratch, with all assumptions taken into consideration.
    Which he… surprise surprise… wasn’t able to do. So he ignored it all together.”

    Still wanna see him do it…lol.
    =
    “…You realize Kitten is expected to pay ME if he’s wrong right?”

    Well, some friends made a $200 bet with me that I couldn’t go the whole school year without swearing, had I lost they weren’t going to make me pay them the $100 I’d owe each of them. Figured this would be the same scenario here.

    I just want someone to loose money over this.

  93. Ragnorke July 30, 2015 at 12:32 pm -      #493

    @CH1
    Well… That bet kinda involved you & only you. It was a one way bet, where the result depended entirely on you.

    This is a two way bet, regarding which one of us is right.
    It would therefor need to be specified if i intended it to be one way. By default, it goes both ways.

    Anyways, drop this topic!

    Closing statements time!

  94. CH1C4N0444 is allergic to bullets July 30, 2015 at 12:33 pm -      #494

    I also think you’re more likely to pay out of the two of you. Don’t think KL would.

  95. Kitten Lord July 30, 2015 at 12:37 pm -      #495

    @Rag

    “points or not. That’s a two way bet.”


    Nice save, I never agreed to a two way bet. I just wanted you to pay me.

  96. Friendlysociopath July 30, 2015 at 12:37 pm -      #496

    Let’s see, a summary.

    Kitten’s arguments:
    1) Kain is too durable for DBZ characters to harm
    2) Kain can use his TK to kill the human ones with no issue
    3) DBZ characters as a whole are too slow to reach Kain before Kain kills them
    4) Kain striking any of them with his reaver will 1HKO them via soul-rape
    5) DBZ characters will simply stand there for extended periods of time to let Kain hit them

    Arguments against Kitten:
    1) Kain’s durability is flawed and exaggerated by Kitten
    2) Kain’s TK is separate from his blood drain and so limits and power levels of one do not go to the other
    3) DBZ character are supersonic at the lowest minimum possible; which is fast enough to blitz Kain by Kitten’s own admission
    4) DBZ characters are strong enough to harm Kain
    5) DBZ characters will not stand around waiting for Kain to attack

    Sound about right?

  97. Kitten Lord July 30, 2015 at 12:40 pm -      #497

    @Friendly

    “Sound about right?”

    You missed the part where the arguments under my name are actually backed with dozens of sources.

    But yeah, the second part for the arguments against me sound almost exact actually….flat statements of disagreement. So the only thing I would correct is, scratch the “arguments agianst kitten” and replace it with “statements/opinions” against Kitten.

    Then your all set up and good to go. Be sure to play up the just general lack of evidence for my opposition.

  98. Spectral Observer July 30, 2015 at 12:42 pm -      #498

    I didn’t think I’d have to skim this thread, but +1 DBZ.

  99. CH1C4N0444 is allergic to bullets July 30, 2015 at 12:50 pm -      #499

    Ha, fucking called it!

  100. Ragnorke July 30, 2015 at 1:07 pm -      #500

    Kitten, can you please NOT counter peoples closing statements? That’s the entire point of closing statements, to not have any rebuttals being thrown around during it.

    Jesus christ, just keep your Kain boner under control for a day or two. Let people say what they need to say.
    You’ve already messaged Admin with your closing statements, let us do the same.
    Some people just feel more comfortable posting here than messaging Admin.

    It’s debating etiquette. You seem to pride yourself in being the best debater here, so act like it.

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