Kain Vs DBZ gauntlet

Kain vs DBZ gauntlet

Suggested by Kitten Lord

Kain (LOK) will run DBZ gauntlet

The gauntlet will consist of 10 DBZ characters;
1) Yamcha
2) Master Roshi
3) Nappa
4) Krillin (Cell Saga)
5) Perfect Cell
6) Gohan (Buu saga)
7) Buu (Kid Buu)
8) Piccolo (Post Buu Saga)
9) Vegeta (SS2, Battle of the Gods)
10) Goku (at his peak)
11) Beerus (At his peak)
Bonus round; All of them at once vs Kain if he gets it this far and beats Beerus.
Second Bonus; If he beats the Bonus, he fights Whis
Battlefield; Solar system, starting planet Earth somewhere in the middle of central park. 100 meters apart. The trees, hills etc have been flattened for the battlefield.
Rules; Kain gets his sword, all his powers and spells from the games, the DBZ characters do not generally have items so ill leave them with fisticuffs
Victory; DBZ characters have to permanently incapacitate Kain, as in, destroy his body, they do not have to destroy Kains soul to win. Kain has to kill/incapacitate all DBZ characters.

How will this end?

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1,289 Comments on "Kain Vs DBZ gauntlet"

  1. CH1C4N0444 is allergic to bullets October 11, 2015 at 4:49 pm -      #1201

    “Btw, I’ve come across some of his Burning Thought posts, they’re very… stupid.”

    www.killermovies.com/forums/f85/t417207.html

    He thinks Kain can take on Thanos…

  2. Amm0vamp1r3 October 11, 2015 at 4:53 pm -      #1202

    Kain vs Thanos…..jesus smh

  3. CH1C4N0444 is allergic to bullets October 11, 2015 at 4:57 pm -      #1203

    PreDBS it would’ve been as much of a stomp as this, but now this takes the cake.

  4. Kitten Lord October 17, 2015 at 7:43 am -      #1204

    @Soul

    “As I told you, position in space does not affect the laws of physics. ”

    Oh damn you told me? well i guess that makes it true. Go and prove every point in the universe aderes to the laws your bringing up, then prove that we will never or indeed any civilization in the universe even up to and including the end of the universe would disprove or find exceptions in our findings…

    ” and you need to present proof”

    This is the problem, I do not because I am not doing what your straw manning me into saying, I am saying you cannot assume it does. Until you prove it works thus across the universe, and by prove I mean unequivocally which you cannot being a singular planetary being yourself just posting quotes you find from people who have some clue at least.

    “That is a myth.”

    Which was not the point as I explained, although you showing me that people in columbus’ time did not think so does not interest me.

    ” that simply means it wasn’t proven true in the first place.”

    Which could be said in the future if we ever do actually gain greater powers of observation technologically or otherwise and find out some of the “facts” we claimed previously are wrong. Just like my example Point being, we do not know.

    “You’re speculating that his teaching is the cause of the range limit.”

    No I know because that is what she said. And then lo and behold, she gives him her power and he no longer has this limit.

    “Will was used for the pre-TK ability as well, old boy. Dear boy, old chap. You should cut out the stupid terminology too. It sticks out like a block of moldy cheese, and fails at making you sound lighthearted, which I assume is what you’re going for.”

    indeed it was, yet we know that his will is not limited because not only is that illogical but he uses his mind and will to TK. So clearly his will is not limited,his teaching was.

    Also I do wish you would try and escape negativity bro. If anything your angry/sullen disposition sticks out like a lump of moldy cheese.

    ” It existed, for whatever reason, and that reason was not said to be taken away.”

    Yes it was, the power itself could not be used at a distance, and now he can. The limit before was he could not use it at a distance, and that limit was removed…

    Could not be any clearer chum.

    “Stop saying that as if it means anything.”

    Well it does because you cannot say an abstract thing gives birth or controls an actual force or energy scientifically.

    “I know you understand that. Also, if A is part of B, then using B does not exclude the use of A.”

    Your issue is you have yet to prove A is part of B.

    “. But if you disagree, show me where the canon says Kain does not or cannot use mental energy. That is what you need.”

    It says Kain “only uses” his mind or his sheer will. So that substracts mental energy, and your using the builders term of energy for what you think it means, which is implying it means an actual energy like gravitational or electrical.

    “I am not citing an exception”

    Your citing one being that is being stated by a third party to use mental energy and then you are taking that literally as a type of energy, rather than other possibilities. For example;

    www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/energy

    Your implying it is defintion 3, it could be any of the others, including spiritual capacity or the ability to be active etc. Afterall, the mass does not typically act of its own regard but can potentially do so as the Builder says.

    “-Kitten, I have two jobs. Keep your attempts at underhanded insults to yourself.”

    Your too highly strong honey. I never said you did not have a job. I said I did and therefore did not always have time to reply to some of your theories.

    @Lowk

    “Adding on to the fact that by BankGambling rules he isn’t passive ”

    I never said he was passive, he was not passive when he was fighting Goku in Super yet he still let Goku get some hits in because he wanted to build his potential or hoped he could for a better fight.

    He was not passive when he faced that stupid primitve either, he killed it after he was convinced it had expended all its capabilities.

    “Your super post has some flaws ub using a source that is is no longer part of the regular series then builds off that for various other part. So how about a redo?”

    The only part of that post that may be retconned is the fact Beerus actually has a gaugable feat. The rest of the post that deals with countless showings of stupid characters, or hours of screaming is not countered just because you showed me a single instance of frieza doing something quickly.

    You realize even when at full power he never does anything as destructive as that so easily? Even some of his ki blasts at full power do less than that.

    ” There is no desperate for anything.”

    Then why are you pleading for a win? If you do not care about either fiction why?

    “It took 9 seconds, not one, for them to get from upper atmosphere/near space beyond the.”

    So they were not only moving “with” gravity by going downwards, but hey were striking eachother, adding the force of their blows to the downward forces……

    And they still, with all this combined only manage around mach 5?

    And you think this is an impressive feat? the most powerful characters in the series can scrape mach 5-10 while moving together and while being under both of their energies AND attacks?

    I watched episode 14 myself. I like the part where despite being in space for a fair amount of time Goku still worries while under water hes going to run out of breath.

    Proving he needs to breathe..

    I also like the part at 5:40 where despite only outputting enough energy to shake the water up a bit thinks hes won when blasting Goku.

    You know I like a lot of parts, like all the screaming and charging that you tried to refute previously….also shown in this series…

    @Friendly

    “Kain has no response to either version. They fade from sight when they fight, this is canon, it being a trope does not make it any less canon to the series.”

    It being a trope makes it just a useless showing of speed, how much speed we do not know but any time we have evidence of them actually moving and we do see it, their not that fast.

    “Buuuuuut mostly the sword”

    Its just interchangeable. Just because a person can Tk does not mean they will all the time, in Kains case he does it often and in this circumstance in this thread his aim is to kill or destroy.

    “And as my animation will depict”

    Your desperation.

    @Ptaine

    “Second of all, no, the fact that sound is nonphysical in the same sense that TK can be nonphysical is not a strawman. It literally is proof that shows why your assertion, “”

    In the same sense? no listen, if your talking about sound as in vibrations of particles then its not “non physical”, your trying to argue two different descriptions of what sound is and are playing them off as equel to TK.

    “. You are making the initial claim, and we are providing a rebuttal that makes sense to us that shows why more evidence is needed. ”

    And here you go on a massive jibber jabber again. I told you about this before. Typing half a dozen paragraphs just to claim that you proved more evidencei s required is a waste of time.

    Its true I said something that made sense that without further evidence could have rung true. However….this is not the same here, your claiming sometihng to be true based purely because you tihnk it is, not because its logical in any way, shape or form.

    Rather, your saying its logical because you want it to be.

    “. We can literally describe TK as a power that is limited by distance ”

    You cannot. Not without making things up out of thin air.

    “The Seer gives him her blood. She doesn’t “correctly” teach him anything to expand his previous power”

    Kain gains the knowledge to use all his powers by drinking blood and gains knowledge from drinking blood in general, like when he drank the blood of one of moebius’ henchmen in Blood omen 1 after he entered a new timeline to discover that Vorador was beheaded.

    “TK on the other hand is never linked to will”

    This is not true. She says he can already manipulate objects by sheer will alone, already in the same sentence as saying she is allowing him to do so at great distance.

    “. Like I said you are being selective in how you are applying your logic.”

    Not at all. I am just not going to ignore the fact she literally connects TK and will, as the comparison between the two powers but then explains how the first one could not be used at a great distance.

    “there is absolutely no reason to think that will’s abtractness has any affect or bearing on anything”

    Nice comment but unfortunately for you, it means everything. Because an abstract medium by its very nature is not to be assumed to generate energy as your trying to claim.

    “I’ve never ignored any explicit statement. I interpret them differently and I give evidence from the game to show why I can correctly do so. You just choose to ignore me because it disproves your point.”

    The statements from the seer and the manuel are explicit. “Sheer will alone” and “mind alone” are both attributed to TK. This whole assumption on it being limited by range because you think everything in the universe has to be or should be because some universes do so is some of the worst logic I have seen from you.

  5. Ninja Lowk October 17, 2015 at 9:02 am -      #1205

    “Then why are you pleading for a win? If you do not care about either fiction why?”

    … Are you seriously asking or are you pulling my leg? I just told you the win was about the lack of colossal downplaying from you. Wgich isn’t really fair for any fiction. But then you went at it again so its a loss.
    ===
    ” I never said he was passive, he was not passive when he was fighting Goku in Super yet he still let Goku get some hits in because he wanted to build his potential or hoped he could for a better fight.”

    And he repeatedly tried to blow up the planet in the process.
    Given the end Beerus took to earth and goku even goong back on his promise to destroy the earth so there is a plot element to it utilizing the be friend your enemies trope.
    ===
    “He was not passive when he faced that stupid primitve either, he killed it after he was convinced it had expended all its capabilities.”

    He was toying with him while whis prepared the food. It not like he’d have risked destroying the meat he came for, he wasn’t angry enough.
    ===
    “The only part of that post that may be retconned is the fact Beerus actually has a gaugable feat.”

    A now there are feats that put Dbz in the mach ranges in movement speed. Which is understandable considering they are in bullet timing rt ranges.
    Speaking of feats, how’s the infinite tk range debate going? :p
    ===
    “So they were not only moving “with” gravity by going downwards, but hey were striking eachother, adding the force of their blows to the downward forces……”

    None of thier punches were aimed down. If anything all it’d do is alter their trajectory insteadof assisting in adding speed towards the ground.
    I thought the fastest amount of speed granted by gravity was terminal velocity? Isn’t that only like 120-180 mph? That should still leave an unassisted speed of Mach 4-9.
    ===
    “You realize even when at full power he never does anything as destructive as that so easily? Even some of his ki blasts at full power do less than that.”

    Frieza was nuking shit with his finger laser spam.
    And Piccolo doesn’t want to destroy his planet so that makes sense.
    I think the piccolo before him flatted an island or something in dragonball.
    ===
    “You know I like a lot of parts, like all the screaming and charging that you tried to refute previously….also shown in this series…”

    Correct me if I’m wrong, I said you failed to note them, I didn’t refute. Then showed what they were capable of without charge ups.

  6. Soulerous October 17, 2015 at 9:12 am -      #1206

    Alright Kitten, you’re not learning, and I stopped believing that you would some time ago. So I’m going to reply to this once more, then I’m going to usher in the Age of No Bull with the others.
    ~
    Energy is the ability to cause change in the universe, so it’s an immutable fact that energy is required to cause change because nothing can cause change without the ability to cause change.
    ~
    The seer never says his range limit was caused by the way he was taught, because being taught that something is true is not the same as that thing being true because that’s what you were taught.
    ~
    You’re speculating about why Kain had limited range, and you’re speculating that the range limit was removed instead of lessened.
    ~
    Kain’s pre-TK power could be used at a distance. I just showed this with a video. Kain’s range was extended to a great distance; you don’t know how great a distance.
    ~
    I don’t need to prove that energy is part of Kain’s mind; the sheer facts that energy can be part of his mind and energy is required to cause change in the universe means we must assume Kain’s use of his mind to cause change involves energy. We don’t even have to assume that for you to be wrong; we only have to acknowledge that Kain’s mind may or may not have energy; that it’s not a known fact that he’s doing things without energy and that range is thus not a factor.
    ~
    Oh, and don’t call me “honey.” Seriously, enough with that. I’m commenting on annoying and/or dumb-sounding terminology, but I’m not angry/sullen. It’s a good idea to not twist my disposition to fit your perception. I mean, you’re the one that’s been throwing around the accusations of obtuseness, word-twisting, and desperation. You’ve written a lot of filler that I’ve ignored. I’m not the negative one, honey.
    ~
    @Everyone- If you realize, as I do, that Kitten Lord is not able to grasp the concepts that are being discussed here, I invite you to partake in the splendors of Debating Rule 13, a blessing from almighty Admin.
    ~
    We need ten ‘Pilers to agree. Make your thoughts known.

  7. Mea quidem sententia October 17, 2015 at 9:32 am -      #1207

    +1 DBZ.

  8. Jake_Uzumaki October 17, 2015 at 10:02 am -      #1208

    +1 DBZ

  9. Amm0vamp1r3 October 17, 2015 at 10:08 am -      #1209

    +1 DBZ.

  10. Soulerous October 17, 2015 at 10:11 am -      #1210

    It should be noted that this isn’t a vote for “X side wins” so much as “this specific debater isn’t debating correctly, so we can ignore them and consider the arguments that are actually valid.” Which amounts to pretty much the same thing in this case, but still.
    ~
    That’s 4 against Kitten.

  11. Ninja Lowk October 17, 2015 at 10:54 am -      #1211

    Cue the superiority act about blah blah ganging up, blah blah whine, you couldn’t blah blah you’re fustrated, better then you blah.

  12. Nsl98 October 17, 2015 at 11:03 am -      #1212

    +1 DBZ

  13. Kitten Lord October 17, 2015 at 11:17 am -      #1213

    @Soul

    “Energy is the ability to cause change in the universe, so it’s an immutable fact that energy is required to cause change because nothing can cause change without the ability to cause change.”

    This is a strawman, your not claiming Kain has the ability to cause change in the universe as the defintion for energy. Your saying Kain has a type of energy, that then has to travel, which then must be argued as a way to limit him arbitrarily.

    Your making a fallacy of half truths.

    “The seer never says his range limit was caused by the way he was taught, because being taught that something is true is not the same as that thing being true because that’s what you were taught.”

    Yes she does. She says “as you were taught you can only manipulate objects at close range”, considering we know he was only using sheer will alone to do so, the only implication of this is either he was taught his will was limited or he was taught he himself was limited. Since the former is untrue since her power allowed his will to manipulate at great distances he was clearly not limited due to will. This goes hand in hand with the fact that distance/range are physical measurements, not abstract like will anyway.

    “I don’t need to prove that energy is part of Kain’s mind;”

    Yes you do if your claiming it is.

    “nergy is required to cause change in the universe means we must assume Kain’s use of his mind to cause change involves energy.”

    Then clearly it is not required to cause change if your using TK. Since it uses an abstract medium.

    “Oh, and don’t call me “honey.””

    “’m not the negative one, honey.”

    Stop getting all red in the eyes and face buddy….

    “If you realize, as I do, that Kitten Lord is not able to grasp the concepts that are being discussed here, I invite you to partake in the splendors of Debating Rule 13, a blessing from almighty Admin.”

    oh gosh, this really is DESPERATE

    Almighty Admin? more like almighty soulerous, you have literally invented two rules that have been put into place purely because you cannot convince me of your argument that Kains TK is limited by range.

    This new one is even worse, at least rule 12 was kind of logical and was being used before in some respects but rule 13 is literally a way for a zerg of people to try and undermine 1 person who disagreees with them.


    There is literally nothing stopping me or anyone getting 10+ friends to sign up just to vote against a person.

    This is trolling, and what is worse Admin is helping you do it. I told Admin before if he cannot have his site involving arguments that are unpopular and not with the common crowd of beliefs then he should ask me to leave himself. Having his members cry because they cannot debate certain points and be given way to make up rules to help them is just petty.

    “It should be noted that this isn’t a vote for “X side wins” so much as “this specific debater isn’t debating correctly, so we can ignore them and consider the arguments that are actually valid.” Which amounts to pretty much the same thing in this case, but still.
    ~
    That’s 4 against Kitten.”

    Stop grasping for straws. Their voting for DBZ.

    +1 Kain.

    @Lowk

    “Cue the superiority act about blah blah ganging up, blah blah whine, you couldn’t blah blah you’re fustrated, better then you blah.”

    Soul sniped you at #1206 and #1210 by starting the superiority act.

  14. Kitten Lord October 17, 2015 at 11:40 am -      #1214

    “Waits for new rule 15”

    soulerous word is law anyone who disagrees with Soulerous is automatically wrong and can be ignored for the rest of the debate. (Special thanks to Soulerous (yet again) for defining this! – Admin)

    Also saw a hole in your new rule Soul, it says involved debaters. Considering there are only a couple of people, yourself and ptaine even argueing the concept your bringing up and trying to apply to TK the new rule is useless. It does not say anyone can just vote regardless of whether or not they involved because they do not like the person or the fact hes part of the opposition.

    So Admin has given you a gun with no bullets…what a shame.

    gifsec.com/wp-content/uploads/GIF/2014/05/LOL-reaction-gif.gif

  15. Soulerous October 17, 2015 at 11:41 am -      #1215

    two rules that have been put into place purely because you cannot convince me
    ~
    And therein lies the problem. We don’t have to convince you in order to be right. You have to convince us in order to be taken seriously. Nothing you’ve said has done that. You’ve managed to turn two forums against you as a debater. Despite you not being convinced, you are wrong. This latest rule is put into place because you are incapable of understanding why you are wrong. And Admin is the one who suggested it in the first place; I helped him define it.
    ~
    he should ask me to leave himself.
    ~
    You are free to leave of your own accord.
    ~
    Stop getting all red in the eyes and face buddy….
    ~
    Stop saying things that mean nothing, buddy.
    ~
    oh gosh, this really is DESPERATE
    ~
    Great, I’ll write that down in my journal. By all means, continue your wailing and gnashing of teeth. Your word simply is not credible, and you’re not going to change that.
    ~
    it says involved debaters
    ~
    Do you know how hard it is to get involved? It’s about as hard as reading the latest arguments and commenting.

  16. Friendlysociopath October 17, 2015 at 11:45 am -      #1216

    I invite you to partake in the splendors of Debating Rule 13, a blessing from almighty Admin.

    Well that’s handy isn’t it?
    Right, things Kitten Lord doesn’t grasp:
    How TK works in LoK
    How energy works in physics
    How fast Kain is
    How durable Kain is
    How strong Kain is
    Kain’s CIS
    How Dragonball filler works
    How Dragonball speed works
    How Dragonball strength works
    Burden of Proof
    Did I miss anything?

    There is literally nothing stopping me or anyone getting 10+ friends to sign up just to vote against a person.

    Well, first you’d have to find 10 friends who actually gave enough of a damn to actually do that; which I suspect you would fail to do.
    Secondly, yes there actually are built-in ways to deal with that.

    Their voting for DBZ.

    Oops, almost forgot.
    +1 DBZ

  17. Kitten Lord October 17, 2015 at 12:01 pm -      #1217

    @Soul

    “We don’t have to convince you in order to be right”

    So what, to be right you need to have rules put into place so you can get a mob of votes together? and this makes you right instead? fine, its your pile Admin Soul.

    “You have to convince us in order to be taken seriously.”

    Well ive not been convinced by you so I guess i should not take you seriously. I guess thats not a rude conclusion to come to.

    ” This latest rule is put into place because you are incapable of understanding why you are wrong”

    The rule regarldess of whether I am wrong or not does not aid in making someone understand their wrong, it just as much allows a lot of wrong people to proclaim them right.

    “Stop saying things that mean nothing, buddy.”

    You do it all the time, who are you to stop me?

    “Do you know how hard it is to get involved? It’s about as hard as reading the latest arguments and commenting.”

    Which cannot be proven. It says debaters have to be actually involved in the discussion, which is so far just you, maybe ptaine but although both of you are on a similiar track its not the same.

    So just you….good job.

    If you wanted your rule to be just a zerg vote from the angry mob you could have asked for that, ime sure Admin Soul could get that worked out in the rules, rule 15, or a remake of 14…

    vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/harrypotter/images/c/cb/Imelda-Staunton_Dolores-Umbridge.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20120108011202

    Can I call you Dolores Umbridge? I wonder if Admin minds being called Fudge…

    @Friendly

    “Secondly, yes there actually are built-in ways to deal with that.”

    No, not at all. Soul literally just said the only way to be legible for that rule is if you read the latest comment and reply. Considering beyond a persons word that is impossible to find out anyone can literally get a group of people to post.

    And luckily ime not petty enough for it, afterall I am condemning the rule, it would be hypocritcal to actually do it…

    Its a pathetic rule, and the people who beg to put it in place are desperate.

    “Well that’s handy isn’t it?”

    Its the handiest trolls resource.

    “Did I miss anything?”

    You missed the part where you do not understand any of those things yourself. So how you can determine when someone grasps it I do not know..

  18. Soulerous October 17, 2015 at 12:05 pm -      #1218

    “You are free to leave of your own accord.”
    ~
    For that matter, you are also free to start listening when we explain something instead of using horrendously unsound logic to disagree with it.
    ~
    So what, to be right you need to have rules put into place so you can get a mob of votes together?
    ~
    The rule allows us to officially ignore you, should we so choose.
    ~
    The rule regarldess of whether I am wrong or not does not aid in making someone understand their wrong
    ~
    That isn’t the goal of the rule.
    ~
    @Friendlysociopath- Game mechanics, power scaling, lots of other things that are somewhat redundant… Good list.

  19. Ninja Lowk October 17, 2015 at 12:09 pm -      #1219

    “Soul sniped you at #1206 and #1210 by starting the superiority act.”

    I’m always late for everything.
    ===
    “Stop grasping for straws. Their voting for DBZ.”

    Maybe its like a vote for dbz is a vote against you. You’ve become the enemy of the franchise itself.

  20. Kitten Lord October 17, 2015 at 12:21 pm -      #1220

    @Soul


    “For that matter, you are also free to start listening when we explain something instead of using horrendously unsound logic to disagree with it.”

    Why would anyone listen to such colossal arrogance? When you explain something I should just listen? even though ive read what you said and come to the conclusion is nonsense. Like aribtarily giving a range limit to abstract mediums? nonsense. Your basically responsible for the “horrendously unsound” logic and then you expect me to just agree with it.

    “The rule allows us to officially ignore you, should we so choose.”

    No, actually the rule specifies only one point. So assuming you did have 10 people argueing this and involved in this argument you have going, which you dont, you have just you honestly. Then you could ignore me concerning the concepts of energyor w/e, that does not mean you autmatically get to decide TK has a range limit yet.

    It also does not counter anything I have said in the thread or any other concept.

    “That isn’t the goal of the rule.”

    I know what the goal it, it gives the offical stamp of Admins approval or something you can claim admins approval when its really just you who invented the rule to an actual bandwagon fallacy/zerg argument.

    That is all it is. You fail to argue, so you find another way to circumvent the failure instead of improve which I was helping you to do.

    @Lowk

    “Maybe its like a vote for dbz is a vote against you.”

    Well it clearly has a lot of fans on here who get all upset if its epic power and proportions that its wanked to are not respected.

  21. Soulerous October 17, 2015 at 12:27 pm -      #1221

    Make all the objections you want. Just be sure that your arguments will be dismissed and ignored if we get ten debaters to agree that you don’t know what you’re talking about.
    ~
    its really just you who invented the rule
    ~
    Admin invented the rule. I suggested two renditions of how to word it.

  22. Kitten Lord October 17, 2015 at 12:36 pm -      #1222

    @Soul

    “Just be sure that your arguments will be dismissed and ignored if we get ten debaters to agree that you don’t know what you’re talking about.”

    vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/degrassi/images/7/75/Eyeroll.gif/revision/latest?cb=20130405210153

    You know angry people who cant debate have been saying “oh ime going to ignore you now hur hur coz ime superior!” for ages on this site. Its always the ones who have terribly static non-dynamic arguments.

    nobody will really ignore me, even when everyone says they will.

    Ill dismiss your arguments as well, they have all been opinions and unbacked interpretations from the beginning. Fallacies pinned up by hypocrisy.

    “renditions of how to word it.”

    Then read the wording of your own rule, its only about the specific concepts debated. So you would literally have to get 10 people, who have actually been involved in debating those specific points to vote for each single thing.

    Which will likely end in 10 people who just dont like me, regardless of whether they have been in the thread or not voting for various things they never argued…

    Nice try tho Soul. Get Admin to ban me, then you can pretend you won some sort of victory without me shooting you down.

    @Thread

    anyway, back to the thread now ive run out of troll feed

    Refer to my super post for the end result of this thread.

    There is currently no feats that allow DBZ characters to damage kains body without charging up for ages. No feats for speed blitzing since Z fighters are not especially fast and the Z fighters fight in a completely different way, like every fight is some sort of sparring match with punching and blasts of energy later on.

    kain does not fight like that he uses sorcery, TK, and a magic sword and he himself is a supernatural being unlike what they generally face.

    He can kill them with almost any of his powers or confound, destroy or twist them….and they have little to no counters at all nor any way of seeing it coming.

    They have no counters to the following powers Kain has;

    Telekinesis, easy kill
    Soul rape from sword or spell
    Mind rape from spell or just his mind
    Soul possession from spell
    Frozen in time
    Slowed in time
    inspired into hate to kill eachother
    immolated

  23. Friendlysociopath October 17, 2015 at 12:38 pm -      #1223

    Game mechanics, power scaling, lots of other things that are somewhat redundant

    Ah no worries- those fall under him not understanding Kain’s durability and strength respectively- I’ve got you.

    No, not at all. Soul literally just said

    I honestly do not give a damn what Soul said. Your exact argument was, “I can get 10 friends to” and that argument and the idea behind it falls flat. There are countermeasures available to the BankGambling authorities to discover and deal with that.

    that does not mean you autmatically get to decide TK has a range limit yet.

    This would be that “Doesn’t understand concepts” thing. You’ve claimed TK has no range with not a single shred of in-game proof. You made the initial claim. Evidence has then been provided to show why your claim isn’t true.
    Ptaine, Soul, Mea, myself and god knows how many others have pointed out why this is incorrect.

    Nowhere in Legacy of Kain is it stated TK is without a range limit.
    Nowhere in Legacy of Kain does Kain use TK at further than maybe 100 meters.
    ^These two points, by themselves, make your claim of “limitless” TK not viable.

    Kain is limited to close-range earlier in his career.
    The Seer tells him he can use TK at a great distance.
    ^Those two points, by themselves, indicate TK has a range. You not knowing it does not mean you can say it’s whatever you want.

    TK is pointed out to use telekinetic energy.
    The Mass itself requires a conduit to channel its own mental energy.
    Kain has an energy-bar for his TK.
    When Kain uses TK he’s shown to have a visual indicator of energy traveling.
    ^These four points all point towards Kain’s TK using and requiring energy.

  24. Soulerous October 17, 2015 at 12:54 pm -      #1224

    So you would literally have to get 10 people, who have actually been involved in debating those specific points to vote for each single thing.
    ~
    They only have to be involved in deeming you unable to grasp the concepts. They only need to read what you have to say about said concepts.
    ~
    Again, your word means nothing and there’s nothing you can do about it. Yes, I know you think you’re right and we’re wrong. That’s exactly why Admin approved this rule.
    ~
    If it’s any consolation, I won’t be able to sleep at night for 3 years, and your biting words will haunt me ’til the day I die. Tears are running down my face right now.

  25. Kitten Lord October 17, 2015 at 1:01 pm -      #1225

    @Friendly

    “I honestly do not give a damn what Soul said.”

    Your right, neither do I. But then I see him becoming the new Admin soon so maybe we should..

    “There are countermeasures available to the BankGambling authorities to discover and deal with that.”

    What countermeasures? nothing stops someone getting a large group of friends to just vote. As i said, if was petty, I could go on World of Warcraft, ask my 1000 guild members to bounce on here, and I could easily get 50 to do it just because I asked them to…

    Nothing anyone can do to counter that on here…

    “. You’ve claimed TK has no range ”

    Correction, you claimed it has range and I ask for proof, which leads to you claiming I am saying it has no range. The burdon of proof is on the initial claim.

    “^These two points, by themselves, make your claim of “limitless” TK not viable.”

    Those two points do not prove TK has a range limit to begin with. nowhere in DBZ does it say ki can harm vampires either or that they can charge up any energy in the presence of vampires….

    “Those two points, by themselves, indicate TK has a range”

    No were talking about a range limit. A range suggests you can affirm TK actually has a lmit it can be used at, you do not know this and you do not know if its 10 meters or 100, or if its even relevant.

    The few scraps and theories soul and I have argued has actually outlined a conclusion that suggests if it does use immaterial energy to achieve things, its a light speed wave since that is how massless energies without particle movement work and travel miles if not lightyears as a minimum.

    This was countered completely by the fact an abstract medium is specifcally stated as the only means of it working and the fact that TK does not work like any energy anyway.

    “^These four points all point towards Kain’s TK using and requiring energy.”

    Only the thing is, the first point is stated as part of the energy bar, gameplay mechanic and is never mentioned by any character in the game. The mass it described alongside mental energy, but it is an assumption from Soul that it refers to the sort of energies he is brinigng up, like kinetic or potential energies or elecotrmagnetic etc.

    Saying something has energy could ,as I provided mean several things that does not aid Souls claim.

    “Kain has an energy-bar for his TK.”

    As for this, the same as the first one. He also has a health bar, he also has a reaver bar….so what? Players have a lot of visual aids in games. The soldiers in Call of duty have health bars and heal over time, another mechanic. Link has a counter for all his items.

    They all have something in common, heir hud elements/mechanics and their resources the player has to control, not necesserily something canon.

    @Soul

    “Again, your word means nothing and there’s nothing you can do about it. Yes, I know you think you’re right and we’re wrong. That’s exactly why Admin approved this rule.”

    My word means nothing? oh soul, your biting words!

    It means as much as yours and always will, even if you manage to find 10 people to do what your new rule says.

    “biting words will ”

    Oh noes, someone calling you out on something is “biting words”….

  26. Soulerous October 17, 2015 at 1:13 pm -      #1226

    I wouldn’t say you’re “calling me out” on anything. There is now a new rule, and I suspect you know the odds are stacked against you in regards to what effect it will have, and you don’t like it.
    ~
    Unfortunately for you, your objections don’t change anything. Are are we done for now? Or do you want to keep “calling me out” by complaining about Rule 13?

  27. Friendlysociopath October 17, 2015 at 1:17 pm -      #1227

    Correction, you claimed it has range and I ask for proof

    Proof was given, Kain could only TK at short range.
    Later, this was changed to “a great distance”, which in no way, shape, or form, implies limitless.
    You’ve never actually gotten around that little hole in your argument.
    The best you have is that Kain could always use it at the infinite distance but just wasn’t taught how to do so. However, you have no proof to back up this theory and it goes against the canon statements of the game where it describes TK as having a range.
    And, despite all of this, we would still go with the best shown feat. Which for Kain is not even 100 meters.

  28. Kitten Lord October 17, 2015 at 1:20 pm -      #1228

    Your still replying to it. And I am calling you out because you clearly could not argue your way out of the discussion so you’ve gone behind my back by inventing a new rule that you can use to troll me with.

    Ime calling it what it is. I am not asking you to reply, ime just pointing out the petty nature of it. just like I called out Friendly for lying and Rag for his constant bashing and flaming. If people want to debate properly and civilly as per the proper rules ill listen but if their going to be a snake in the grass and use a bandwagon fallacy to get what they want then so be it.

    “Unfortunately for you, your objections don’t change anything”

    neither does this new rule. There are tons of rules on the site, including not being malicious, considering a lot of people have been on this site, either against me or others and have shown a lack of respect we know that not all the rules are real and some are just window dressing.

    @Friendly

    “Proof was given, Kain could only TK at short range.”

    That was never proven. It was aleady known by me, and accepted that the power he had before only worked at close range.

    “The best you have is that Kain could always use it at the infinite distance but just wasn’t taught how to do so. ”

    No by default it would be as far as he can see, becaus I have undeniable proof he uses an abstract medium, his will to move objects. Which is undeniable proof by proxy that all he has to do is know something si there or see it to want to will it to move in the first place.

    That is all we know for fact, if range itself as in, he could not move something at 10 meters or more is true is something my opposition invented

    Just like I cant invent the relevance and claim for Goku not possibly being able to use Ki around Kain or ki hurting vampires etc. Or w/e other nonsense like abstract powers being limited by range I can think of.

  29. Amm0vamp1r3 October 17, 2015 at 1:36 pm -      #1229

    And so the wheel begins to turn again

  30. Soulerous October 17, 2015 at 1:38 pm -      #1230

    you’ve gone behind my back by inventing a new rule that you can use to troll me with.
    ~
    Like I said, Admin invented it. I then suggested the wording that he used, but not the point of it.
    ~
    you clearly could not argue your way out of the discussion
    ~
    Yeah, I still know you think you’re right and we’re wrong. Doesn’t matter, Kitten.
    ~
    neither does this new rule.
    ~
    You want to rebel against the site rules? Let me know how that works out.

  31. Kitten Lord October 17, 2015 at 1:43 pm -      #1231

    @Soul

    “You want to rebel against the site rules? Let me know how that works out.”

    Everyone including you have done so already, how did it work out for you? I mean scroll up, do you honestly think youve not said or done anything that I would consider disrespectful?

    Youve also violated common sense, bringing up energy for abstract things just because you want to make something work the way you want it to…

    You were not banned were you? neither was Rag for flaming or Friendly for trolling so clearly, the rules are not enforced, and new ones are made on a whim, course it was your whim so I can only imagine youve put a lot of money recently, donations into the site or know Admin irl.

  32. Soulerous October 17, 2015 at 2:03 pm -      #1232

    do you honestly think youve not said or done anything that I would consider disrespectful?
    ~
    How you personally view it isn’t the deciding factor. Admin’s patience is. I’ve attacked your argument, said some of the phrases you’ve used sound dumb, and claimed that you don’t understand the concepts we’re discussing. All things that I stand by. I don’t believe I’ve insulted you personally. That would be rather unkind.
    ~
    Regardless, you’re talking about community guidelines. I’m talking about the actual debating rules. If you don’t follow the latter, you cannot win a debate period. That’s the point I’m making.
    ~
    I can only imagine youve put a lot of money recently, donations into the site or know Admin irl.
    ~
    Neither is the case.

  33. Kitten Lord October 17, 2015 at 2:18 pm -      #1233

    @Soul

    ” Admin’s patience is”

    Considering some of the stuff I have seen from some posters its unlimited, including you. Suggesting the rules, especially this daft one which will never be of any use to anyone, especially you and will open up for any trolls who have a lot of friends who can come on here and squelch people in any argument for no reason at all honestly.

    “Regardless, you’re talking about community guidelines.”

    Well yes, I am aware…

    The very things that tell you to be respectful.

    “Neither is the case.”

    I do not know. Those were just some possibilities for why someone would give someone else the power to invent rules on this site all of a sudden.

    “. If you don’t follow the latter, you cannot win a debate period.”

    Nobody can determine whether someone has won a debate or not. If you personally believe then that is nice but nothing in the debating rules says if you do not follow them you have automatically lost the debate.

  34. Soulerous October 17, 2015 at 2:31 pm -      #1234

    Considering some of the stuff I have seen from some posters its unlimited
    -Posters have been banned before.
    ~
    give someone else the power to invent rules on this site all of a sudden.
    -Everyone has the power to make suggestions. Admin chooses what to do with those suggestions.
    ~
    Nobody can determine whether someone has won a debate or not.
    -We determine the winners by presenting objective fact and examining it. This has always worked on BankGambling. Until you. And so now we have rule 13, which means that your arguments can be ignored in regards to consideration for victory if at least 10 Facts deem you unable to understand the concepts involved. Usually this sort of thing is left up to moderators, but we don’t exactly have those here.

  35. Kitten Lord October 17, 2015 at 2:48 pm -      #1235

    @Soul

    “-Posters have been banned before.”

    Ive not seen it for a long time, if at all and ive seen a lot of nonsense on here. I think Admins busy with a lot of stuff so enforcing rules must be harder than making them.

    “We determine the winners by presenting objective fact and examining it. ”

    Whos we? you? me? someone else? How do you know someone is capable of examining it without bias? or who is just arguing something because they have popular support or dislike their opposition? You cant. nobody has any official authority other than Admin.

    ” which means that your arguments can be ignored in regards to consideration for victory if at least 10 Facts deem you unable to understand the concepts involved. ”

    No, wrong. If anyone gets 10 votes against any person, so lets say I got 50 guild mates from WoW to say you do not understand the concepts your history and your arguments for those concepts are ignored. But any other arguments for other aspects of the thread that you may have commented on regardless of the silly little triviality you’ve had me arguing would still stand.

    Also the rule does not say who actually determines whether those 10 are valid, whether those 10 votes are actually from people who themselves understood or read the comments. It does not say, any 10 votes and you can ignore someone, it has to have some substance.

    Which is not provable. Making it a useless rule.

  36. itcheyness October 17, 2015 at 3:01 pm -      #1236

    “Ive not seen it for a long time, if at all and ive seen a lot of nonsense on here. I think Admins busy with a lot of stuff so enforcing rules must be harder than making them. ”

    To the best of my knowledge 3 posters have been banned in the history of BankGambling.

    1 for having a pornographic avatar that he refused to change.

    1 for making a bunch of racist posts

    1 for being an abusive argumentative prick who’s debate strategy was laced with excessive swearing and insults whenever anyone disagreed with him. (Fisherking)

    Generally admin has a very laissez faire attitude towards our posting here, but he does have his limits.

  37. Soulerous October 17, 2015 at 3:10 pm -      #1237

    But any other arguments for other aspects of the thread
    -Like I said, “the concepts involved.” Meaning involved with those specific arguments. In this case, there are a lot of concepts.
    ~
    so lets say I got 50 guild mates
    -I don’t believe you can actually get anyone to agree with you, let alone 50 guild mates. But we’ll cross that bridge when we come to it.
    ~
    Also the rule does not say who actually determines whether those 10 are valid
    -It does not say they need to be determined to be valid. Ten debaters just need to agree. If it comes to it, I’ll email Admin about amending the rule to prevent individuals from recruiting random people to agree with them. But again, we’ll cross that bridge when we come to it.
    ~
    Fisherking is also the reason the community guidelines were added.

  38. Kitten Lord October 17, 2015 at 3:20 pm -      #1238

    @itchey

    “abusive argumentative”

    That sounds like Ragnaros though who was almost always abusive…infact I cannot recall a single argument he had that did not involve him insulting someone in some way.

    @Soul

    “I don’t believe you can actually get anyone to agree with you,”

    Well that is the beauty of it, I do not have to. All I have to do, indeed anyone has to do is get a lot of people to say they agree with them and that someone else is not understanding something regardless of whether it is true or not.

    “Ten debaters just need to agree”

    Ten debaters, not just ten random people on the site.

    “prevent individuals from recruiting random people to agree with them”

    You tried to do exactly that, you took 4 votes that were for DBZ to mean 4 votes against ignoring me even those who have not even debated against any of those concepts or alongside them in the thread.

    So we have come to that bridge.

  39. Soulerous October 17, 2015 at 3:43 pm -      #1239

    All I have to do, indeed anyone has to do is get a lot of people to say they agree with them
    -Alright, I don’t think you can do that either.
    ~
    Ten debaters, not just ten random people on the site.
    -A debater being someone who debates. We have lots of those here. I think we’ll manage.
    ~
    you took 4 votes that were for DBZ to mean 4 votes against ignoring me
    -I’m quite sure that’s what they were, but sure, let’s be cautious about it.
    ~
    @Everyone- If you agree that Kitten Lord is unable to grasp the concepts involved in quantifying Kain’s feats and/or the truth of debating points regarding him or Dragon Ball, make it known. This is concerning Kitten Lord, not specifically DBZ.

  40. Nobunaga Jin October 17, 2015 at 4:11 pm -      #1240

    +1 DBZ

  41. Kitten Lord October 17, 2015 at 4:17 pm -      #1241

    @Soul


    “Alright, I don’t think you can do that either.”

    Its irrelevant. It may not be me, it could be anyone in the future who has as many opportunities to do so as I do but has no knack for debating like you, so has to run for the popularity vote. When that person makes a mockery of Rule 13 like your trying to, Admin will have to change it or get swamped. or call the site popularity pile.

    “A debater being someone who debates. We have lots of those here. I think we’ll manage.”

    I don’t. oh look I can do it too!

    I do not think you will find 10 people who are actually involved in the debate. Because that is like, a few people at best.

  42. Soulerous October 17, 2015 at 4:24 pm -      #1242

    @Nobunaga Jin- I suggest “+1 against Kitten,”
    ~
    @KL- “it could be anyone in the future
    -Oh yeah, this rule absolutely has the potential to be abused. And if it is, we’ll do something about it. As long as most Facts remain decent debaters, I doubt we’ll have problems.
    ~
    I don’t think there’s anything more to say for now.

  43. Kitten Lord October 17, 2015 at 6:47 pm -      #1243

    @Soulerous

    “As long as most Facts remain decent debaters”

    Then we have a problem. hence why it is a useless rule.

    “@Nobunaga Jin- I suggest “+1 against Kitten,””

    The sheer desperation on this one…

    It would not count, because the rule clearly states a person has to be involved, and Jin is not involved, infact there was nothing in the discussion at all concerning him.

    Whats more, we have no idea if he is in agreement with the concepts in question. Even if someone says so, we do not know if they are.

    So first we need to find a way to determine if someone actually is or not beyond word to avoid mistakes. And then actually determine who is involved. So far that is at best you and me Soul.

  44. Mea quidem sententia October 17, 2015 at 7:02 pm -      #1244

    Christ on a cracker, let’s just drop this nonsense. Everyone is against the notion that Kain has a chance. Let’s all move on.

  45. Kitten Lord October 17, 2015 at 7:09 pm -      #1245

    Its more, almost everyone is against the notion that DBZ can lose this. It has less to do about kain than the fact its DBZ who are being considered for a loss.

    There is no evidence that is positive for them being too fast, reacting quickly or assertively within fractions of a second of the match in whcih it takes Kain to gesture or consdier TK, and certainly not in the minutes or hours of kicking and punching and charging up before they decide to actually try to planet bust him, for those who would consider busting a planet in the first place.

    That gives kain a lot of time to use one of his abilities, very few of them that are not capable of one shotting his opponents. Hence why Inever said this was a stomp in kains favor and why he should be awarded for clearing through DBZ.

  46. Amm0vamp1r3 October 17, 2015 at 7:12 pm -      #1246

    Moving on seems best, a lot vs 1.

    DBZ wins its over

  47. Kitten Lord October 17, 2015 at 7:21 pm -      #1247

    @Ammo

    “Moving on seems best, a lot vs 1.”

    So this is the site now? So if I got a bunch of people to just say X wins a match is over? Popularity pile? “sigh”

    It was over once I posted my super post. Which if anyone actually wants to read serious discussion over angry fist shaking from the anti-kitten lord mob go to page 3 for my super post.

  48. Mea quidem sententia October 17, 2015 at 7:34 pm -      #1248

    Kitten Lord, just stop. No one accepted what you had to say at Killer Movies. No one accepted what you had to say at Comic Vine. Three message boards disagree with you. The issue isn’t from them. Just move on.

  49. Kitten Lord October 17, 2015 at 7:39 pm -      #1249

    The issue is always with the people who are blind to the facts and feats, if you cannot see a super post that consists of 40+ sources that literally say what I am arguing and show it quite explicitly then then I am clearly not that stubborn compared to some on here…

    As you like to say, its a lot of really filthy pots calling one kettle black, and expecting to be correct just because more of them say it regardless of the logic.

    Do not worry though. A person can only butt head against wall for so long, ill probably move on “eventually”. But sometimes the trolling and new kain threads are the bait to attract me back so clearly people like me to be here.

  50. Mea quidem sententia October 17, 2015 at 7:51 pm -      #1250

    I agree that the new Kain matches are trite and tired. I feel that they are meant to draw you to them as well. I don’t think that’s fair because I feel that it ruins any future matches for Kain and it seems by that point, certain people are just picking on you. I would have been interested in seeing a match between Kain and Samus, but because of these matches, I don’t think it’d be a good idea to even suggest it. Maybe some time in the future I’ll suggest it, but for now, Kain needs to have a break.

  51. Soulerous October 17, 2015 at 8:01 pm -      #1251

    For the record, I’ve never picked on you. I have not resorted to flaming and name-calling, and I hope you appreciate that in some small way. My only interest has been in contesting what I, and obviously others, consider to be outrageous untruths.
    ~
    The issue is you’re not convinced and we’re not convinced, and people who are wrong are capable of refusing to concede and choosing to continue to argue for as long as they want instead. We have entered many stalemates with you on many threads, and these stalemates could go on forever. There has to be a solution for this situation. Rule 13 is that solution.

  52. Kitten Lord October 18, 2015 at 6:32 am -      #1252

    @Soul

    “My only interest has been in contesting what I, and obviously others, consider to be outrageous untruths.”

    What you percieve to be untruths. I think a lot of your beliefs are outrageous, yet I have never tried to come up with rules, one after the other specifically to undermine you based on pure popular belief. I would prefer flaming to that.

    “There has to be a solution for this situation. Rule 13 is that solution.”

    Rule 13 is no more a solution than everyone saying their going to ignore someone. The only thing it does is allow people with groups of buddies to set up a bandwagon against one person just because they disagree.

    Get 10 Goku fanboys and you try ignore someone who may be talking sense and you just disagree wit h them.

    “We have entered many stalemates with you on many threads, and these stalemates could go on forever. There has to be a solution for this situation”

    Heres a real solution. Something that actually works in debating circles and should work in any discussion. agree to disagree, pretending to ignore someone, acting with spite or trolling has never worked and will if anything make the person in question reply more, and appear more important.

    If you agree to disagree like I have done on occasion and leave the thread, then the match can just be ignored.

    @Mea

    ” but for now, Kain needs to have a break.”

    I hear you…..I wont be on here during the Fallout 4 period. But if someone baits me with another fake match ill likely show up again.

  53. Ninja Lowk October 18, 2015 at 7:25 am -      #1253

    “There is no evidence that is positive for them being too fast, reacting quickly or assertively within fractions of a second of the match in whcih it takes Kain to gesture or consdier TK”

    There are multiple cases of them catching and or blocking bullets throughout the series. Three of which came before the multiple boost to strength and speed.
    The last of which is a feat that show single digit millisecond reaction time.
    ===
    “and certainly not in the minutes or hours of kicking and punching and charging up before they decide to actually try to planet bust him, for those who would consider busting a planet in the first place.”

    Goku vegeta and thier kids have shown they can instantly go super sayian. Goku has pulled out his Kamehameha in a few seconds in the fight with beerus and Cell’s blast can do this
    m.youtube.com/watch?v=8bRwWaeWK6U

  54. Soulerous October 18, 2015 at 8:26 am -      #1254

    If you agree to disagree like I have done on occasion and leave the thread, then the match can just be ignored.
    ~
    Ignoring the match is not a solution. Ignoring the wrong party is preferred. As much as you criticize it, the rule is official, and it’s meant for extreme cases. So next time we have another thread where every other debater disagrees with you (it’s obvious why, to us), we’ll see how things are different.

  55. ptaine October 18, 2015 at 10:23 am -      #1255

    “If you realize, as I do, that Kitten Lord is not able to grasp the concepts that are being discussed here, I invite you to partake in the splendors of Debating Rule 13, a blessing from almighty Admin.”
    .
    So far I’ve counted 7 votes, add my vote to the pile. I’ll just make a synopsis of some of my specific argument with Kitten Lord and the ideas that he either is either unable to grasp or refuses to grasp here.
    .
    Kain can TK 100 meters is the initial positive claim. Every intrinsic aspect of this claim must be proven for this claim to have any merit. These include: how fast, how much, and how far. How fast can Kain perform TK, how fast does TK move, how much can TK move/pick up, how much force can TK apply, how far can TK go, etc… These are all relevant questions to ask for any feat like this. However, Kitten Lord has proclaimed that he does not care about distance and it is up to the opposition to explicitly prove why distance is a factor. This is a blatant disregard for rule 12 and is also a Burden of Proof Fallacy since he is the one with the initial positive claim. We all know this, Kitten Lord has shown an inability to grasp this simple debating concept.
    .
    Kitten Lord has claimed that despite Kain’s best showing of TK being much less than 100 meters Kain can TK as far as he can see. This is a No-Limits Fallacy because there is no explicit evidence that states this, nor is there any implied evidence that shows this to be true. In this line of debate Kitten Lord has claimed that his opposition is committing an Argument from Ignorance Fallacy by stating that since we have never seen Kain TK beyond a certain distance we do not know for sure that he can. This ignores rule 10 and is an incorrect fallacy to call based on rule 12 and the No-Limit element in question. Compounding this issue Kitten Lord claims that this line of logic is equivalent to ki signatures screwing vampires up and other such nonsense because we’ve never seen these things happen either. This is a False-Equivalence Fallacy because this ignores rule 12 and the intrinsic aspects of the initial positive claim that show why simply not seeing something done is not enough of a comparison here. Kitten Lord has shown an inability to grasp the applications of these fallacies and rules, and refuses to accept why they are relevant points of contention.
    .
    Furthermore, Kitten Lord has proclaimed that even though he believes the opposition has the Burden to prove why distance is a factor, he is gracious enough to indulge us because TK is an exception to rule 12 and does not have distance as a limiting factor. The first reason for why is because TK uses will to function and it is an abstract concept that does not have distance defined for it. This is an incorrect statement that breaks 3 fallacies: 1) is an Association Fallacy: If will is the mechanism for function, Kain can do something with his will we cannot, therefore it is an incorrect comparison to our will as an abstract concept. 2) is an Appeal to Definition Fallacy: Simply being defined a certain way does not remove the applications beyond the definition. 3) is Cherrypicking: Energy is a viable alternative that has evidentiary support for the mechanism of TK. Another reason TK is an exception to rule 12 is because TK is nonphysical and therefore cannot have a physical attribute, such as distance, attributed to it. The problem is this relies on Cherrypicking definitions for both Telekinesis and Physical and ignores those that show why distance would be a factor as well as comparisons to other nonphysical elements that have distance as a limiting factor. Kitten Lord has shown an inability to grasp these concepts, and refuses to accept why he cannot prove distance is not a factor for TK based on the evidence that has been provided thus far.
    .
    There are a few more specifics throughout the argument, but these are some of the main ideas. Essentially though, Kitten Lord has shown a complete inability to correctly apply fallacies to others, like the incessant “strawmaning” claim, as well as an inability to recognize the fallacious nature of his own claims.

  56. Mea quidem sententia October 18, 2015 at 11:06 am -      #1256

    The brain is like hardware and the mind is like software. “Will” is a function of the mind. It is physical just like software. If you damage the brain, you damage the mind, such as personality, memories, consciousness. Because Kain can interact with the world using his mind, his telekinesis is also physical. It would have to be, otherwise, his telekinesis couldn’t interact with anything. We don’t know how it functions and saying Kain uses willpower to do this is the same thing as saying Kain “decides on and initiates an action”, or “control deliberately exerted to do something”.

    I can understand that Kitten Lord assumes that because we don’t understand how telekinesis works, it must have no distance. Honestly, if the distance was affected by what Kain could see, then he would be able to grab a comet out of space. We have observed a distance for Kain’s TK, but we cannot assume it goes any farther than what we’ve seen. That is for Kitten Lord to prove. Since telekinesis interacts with the world, then we can at least say that it uses kinetic energy because you cannot spell “telekinetic” without “kinetic”. There’s also the fact that Soulerous found a source saying one of the telekinetic attacks uses kinetic energy.

    Distance involves two things: motion and time. For example, if I knew how fast I was moving and the time it took, I could find the distance. 10 m/s * 0.5 s = 5 m. Telekinesis works with motion and time. Its very name means “distant movement”. It works in a dimension, which doesn’t look any different from ours. This would mean it involves height, length, width, depth, breadth, time.

    Unless there’s a specific definition provided from the game itself, saying that it’s supernatural (or its synonyms), we cannot assume that telekinesis is non-physical in the sense of not being affected by physical law. It doesn’t help that “kinetic energy” was used to describe one form of telekinesis.

  57. Rorschach October 18, 2015 at 4:07 pm -      #1257

    Rule 13 has always been the solution in these cases. It has been done long before this period of the pile. It now just has an actual name.

    There have been other cases of this in the past, and they were dealt with by awarding the victor of the match.
    This is why people are saying +1 DBZ. That’s how the winner is determined to receive a BankGambling Award.
    Matches are awarded, and if there are still those that disagree or do not understand even after it has been made painstakingly obvious to them, the thread will be locked.
    With overwhelming evidence and support provided, it is a judgment made by the reader, the one to be convinced of the arguments presented, and the debaters that debated properly for their sides.

    In watching over the pile, I have seen this, among other debates a constant eyesore.
    In hopes that this debate will cease to plague the pile, +1 for DBZ, in the sense that Kitten Lord has failed to take the time to understand the proper debating process and has needlessly dragged this on.

  58. Aelfinn October 18, 2015 at 4:11 pm -      #1258

    Hmm? We’re counting up votes? I read the rule, may I advise that we change it so that we need a “10-to-1 ratio” instead of simply 10 votes? That way 10 people can’t ignore, say, 7 people making an argument, but 20 people can shut down something like 2.
    =
    But yeah, might as well add my vote to DBZ, just so we can get closer to 10.
    =
    =
    =
    @Kitten Lord
    Love the argument. It’s great. Just show us Kain using TK at 100 meters.
    =
    Quick reminder what Piccolo did back in DragonBall
    www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VO5Y_wFJsg

  59. Soulerous October 18, 2015 at 4:57 pm -      #1259

    may I advise that we change it so that we need a “10-to-1 ratio” instead of simply 10 votes?
    -I actually suggested that in my email to Admin. Don’t know why it didn’t make it in. Perhaps Admin thought to prevent Kitten from getting a friend to agree with him on here and stall the process?
    ~
    Anyway, that’s Mea Quidem Sententia, Jake Uzumaki, Amm0vamp1r3, Nsl98, Friendlysociopath, Nobunaga Jin, Ptaine, Rorschach, Aelfinn, and myself, for a total of ten votes. Motion passed.
    ~
    The Dragon Ball characters blast or crush Kain faster than he can react, giving them the win.

  60. Nsl98 October 18, 2015 at 6:06 pm -      #1260

    Yay.
    images.sodahead.com/polls/004580995/7fee5990c24239577663d46d6f6bf395_answer_6_xlarge.jpeg

  61. AbsoluteZero October 18, 2015 at 7:58 pm -      #1261

    “Anyway, that’s Mea Quidem Sententia, Jake Uzumaki, Amm0vamp1r3, Nsl98, Friendlysociopath, Nobunaga Jin, Ptaine, Rorschach, Aelfinn, and myself, for a total of ten votes. Motion passed.”

    I have been forgotten. Let’s make it a nice Eleven. +1 DBZ

  62. Karen Starr October 18, 2015 at 8:50 pm -      #1262

    Hate odd numbers so let’s go to 12 make it a nice dozen.

  63. CH1C4N0444 is allergic to bullets October 18, 2015 at 9:03 pm -      #1263

    I’ll make it an odd 13, cus I can.

  64. Kitten Lord October 19, 2015 at 4:19 am -      #1264

    @Lowk

    “There are multiple cases of them catching and or blocking bullets throughout the series. ”

    A few characters may have blocked or deflected bullets, but as I pointed out, that is not as impressive as your arguing it to be, and further does not mean they can move quicker than a person can perceive. moving your hand a few inches or feet at most about to catch predictable rounds is not the same as corssing 100 meters without being seen.

    “Goku vegeta and thier kids have shown they can instantly go super sayian.”

    They have also shown they take time to charge it up. So to find the consistency how many times have they instantly done it compared to the amount f times they have taken time?

    Also thats not all I am talking about, half the characters on my list, if not all of them have taken time to charge up at some point before battles. And any major attack of destructive potential seems to take time as well.

    E.g., busting a planet has generally taken some charge up. All of Gokus Kamahahas in Super recently have taken him time and thats him at peak..

    @Soul

    “Ignoring the match is not a solution. Ignoring the wrong party is preferred. ”

    Its the same thing. If you ignore the whole match, your ignoring whoever the wrong part is. You can claim your the right party and I am wrong until your red in the face but it makes no difference.

    “Admin thought to prevent Kitten from getting a friend to agree with him on here and stall the process?”

    I can get 10 and outlaw all of you from discussing any Kain match if i want under the current rules.

    “The Dragon Ball characters blast or crush Kain faster than he can react, giving them the win.”

    I have proven otherwise in my super post on page 3. None of them act faster than he can react because they spend a long time standing around charging and complaining. And further, they have not shown many powers that could crush kain, at best if Kain toyed with them for a length of time, they may eventually planet bust him, which “may” work assuming he does not reform.

    Oh and your rule merely shows us that the match is not awaradable. As per the rules for awarding a match wisdom of the crowds arguments are not enough to get a win. Your rule simply gives an offical showing of a bandwagon/crowd. We had that already pages ago.

    “for a total of ten votes. Motion passed.”

    Nice try, your desperation has mostly gotten us a lot of votes for DBZ again. And your ignoring the rule your trying to parade, the rule says the people have to be involved with the argument. Considering I have not argued with anyone else here on these concepts apart from you, your still the only relevant vote.

    @Ptaine

    “So far I’ve counted 7 votes, add my vote to the pile.”

    There are 7 votes for DBZ, we have already voted for who we think we will win. Ive even emailed Admin pages ago.

    “This is a blatant disregard for rule 12 and is also a Burden of Proof Fallacy since he is the one with the initial positive claim. We all know this, Kitten Lord has shown an inability to grasp this simple debating concept.”

    You say this while wrongly claiming fallacies and so thereby comitting the fallacy fallacy. Rule 12 says nothing of distance, mass, force etc being inherant in everything in fiction. It simply suggests that without any exception being shown we assume universes use our physics.

    Considering TK is a supernatural power not understood within physics, and has been shown to do things energy does not do or adhere to and has been explicity stated to be activated purely by someones will, this proves unequivocally it is an exception to physics, nothing in our science or physics works in this manner.

    Funnily enough, the example given in the rule for something to be an exception is not nearly as explicit or as strict as you think it should be.

    Further, you claim things should have a range limit purely because you belive it to be true. You have yet to prove a range limit or a limit on the distance TK can be used. I have logically come to the conclusion that an abstract and non physical medium like will is not gauged by meters or distance and cannot be.

    ” This is a No-Limits Fallacy because there is no explicit evidence that states this, nor is there any implied evidence that shows this to be true. ”

    Again another showing of Ptaine not knowing a fallacy for what it is. outlining a known limit or likely limit is not fallacious in any way.

    I reasoned correctly that Kain has to at least know something is there to TK it. This usually is done by him looking at something and gesturing at it. Therefore by proxy, him being able to see someone or something is likely required for him to TK it.

    He does Tk a man in the comic without looking at them, hence why I said, clearly knowing they are there is enough.

    “This ignores rule 10 and is an incorrect fallacy to call based on rule 12 and the No-Limit element in question. ”

    Again, no. Your claiming it ignores X rule and Y but without any explanation. For someone who likes to waffle you do not actually explain anything. You just make a lot of claims.

    This is no more useful than me saying your whole argument ignores rule 7 and rule 9…..regarldess of whether it does. Stop trying t o dodge the fact that your making an argument from ignorance and have been called out on it by more than just me by saying Kain cannot do X just because youve not seem him do it.

    ” intrinsic aspects of the initial positive claim that show why simply not seeing something done is not enough of a comparison here”

    Which is amusing because this is exactly what your doing for TK. Your asking me to show Kain Tking at 100 meters otherwise he cannot, this is argument from ignorance. Just like my examples.

    My other examples are spot on when concerning your insistence on distnace being a factor for Tk.

    “ignores those that show why distance would be a factor as well as comparisons to other nonphysical elements that have distance as a limiting factor. ”

    Which was never provided. You have never proven that distance or range is an inherent factor for TK. Nor that it this is possible to be the case for an abstract element.

    Also your making a fallacy of circular reasoning here;

    ” 1) is an Association Fallacy: If will is the mechanism for function, Kain can do something with his will we cannot, therefore it is an incorrect comparison to our will as an abstract concept. ”


    Your saying Kain cannot be an exception to rule 12 even though he is able to do X with this abstract medium. yet your saying somehow abstract is different in LoK purely because you think it has to work with rule 12, even though it does not. Rule 12 outlines exceptions and this is a clear one, yet you ignore it and apply circular reasoning to try and argue how the use of abstract powers in LoK has to be scientific in nature therefore cannot be what we consider abstract.

    “Essentially though, Kitten Lord has shown a complete inability to correctly apply fallacies to others, like the incessant “strawmaning” claim, as well as an inability to recognize the fallacious nature of his own claims.”

    Essentially though, Kitten Lords opposition has simply stated this while hypocritically doing the thing they think he is responsible for.

    They then try and use a bandwagon to apparently imply their points are correct because more people think he is wrong…..

    @Mea

    ” If you damage the brain, you damage the mind,”

    Just because you can influence one thing by influencing another does not make both of those things the same.

    “I can understand that Kitten Lord assumes that because we don’t understand how telekinesis works, it must have no distance.”

    Then you do not understand. I do not assume anything, I am against people assuming it must have distance like my opposition is intent on believing.

    “Telekinesis works with motion and time. Its very name means “distant movement”. It works in a dimension, which doesn’t look any different from ours. This would mean it involves height, length, width, depth, breadth, time.”

    These are assumptions and have not been proven. And the “distant movement” is refering to the movement of objects at a distance. Hence why Kain can cause distance objects to move, the power itself is supernatural, especially in the case of LoK that somehow allows the crazy power to move objects just by willing it.

    Even through other objects.

    As you say here;

    “Distance involves two things: motion and time”

    First, there is no motion. Merely thought. And finally time? there is no time unless you consider the time it takes for Kain to react and think which is then a seperate discussion. Considering we are talking about immaterial/abstract mediums, motion being brought up is honestly absurd.

    One could also argue time may be an illusion of our perceptions and nothing more.

    ” It doesn’t help that “kinetic energy” was used to describe one form of telekinesis.”

    It was not stated that the Tk itslf was kinetic energy. One could argue that the object being moved is under some form of kinetic energy perhaps purely because its moving, but the TK itself? no, its explicity stated as working based purely on the mind and the will. And it explicity states those tihngs alone both times its mentioned.

    @Thread

    In conclusion, as I said. DBZ characters have shown no character traits that suggest that would ignore powering up at the start of the match or reract instantly at full speed. No feats for their acceleration being greater than kains brains reaction time has been provided either.

  65. Numinous One October 19, 2015 at 7:12 am -      #1265

    “All of Gokus Kamahahas in Super recently have taken him time and thats him at peak..”

    That’s because anything less will have absolutely no effect on Beerus.
    You also completely ignored, again, the fact that Buu right off the bat went for two planet busters, one as a casual ki blast with no charge time, and one charged up so it couldn’t be deflected again.

    “None of them act faster than he can react because they spend a long time standing around charging and complaining.”

    Provide a quantifiable number for Kain’s reaction times, until then, they do.

    “they may eventually planet bust him, which “may” work assuming he does not reform.”

    Absolutely no proof Kain could survive that level of energy, even if he could he is BFR’d into space and loses anyway.

    “Your asking me to show Kain Tking at 100 meters otherwise he cannot, this is argument from ignorance. ”

    Going down this route we can say they can counter Kain’s TK with their own, afterall we know they can TK using Ki, and you can’t prove they can’t just because they haven’t shown.
    We use the best shown feats for a reason.

    “DBZ characters have shown no character traits that suggest that would ignore powering up at the start of the match or reract instantly at full speed. ”

    Except for all the times they have.
    A recent example was Gohan moving so fast everyone else was basically frozen.
    Also Aelfinn’s calc on how quickly a human sized object needs to move to dissappear.
    We also know they’re capable of following this with their eyes, Vegeta was able to follow Goku and Beerus fighting when they were in upper atmosphere, he was making facial expressions appropriate to the situations which implies he was able to see it all, bearing in mind they can’t sense God Ki so Ki sensing is out of the question.
    Just goes to show they have very good eyesight and appropriate reactions for it.

    “No feats for their acceleration being greater than kains brains reaction time has been provided either.”

    Feats for Kain’s reaction times?

  66. Ninja Lowk October 19, 2015 at 7:46 am -      #1266

    “A few characters may have blocked or deflected bullets, but as I pointed out, that is not as impressive as your arguing it to be, and further does not mean they can move quicker than a person can perceive. moving your hand a few inches or feet at most about to catch predictable rounds is not the same as corssing 100 meters without being seen.”

    It means their reaction time and reflexes are really fucking faster. Which given the fight that happened so fast no one could follow what happened. And being “predictable” does really mean shit when they are catching them after they are fired.

    Speed wise they are in the mach ranges, low-end supersonic. High-end high Hypersonic with gotenks.
    ===
    “They have also shown they take time to charge it up.”

    After the novelty wears off on a specific transformation they start doing it fairly easily. Goku and Trunks transformed with no screaming charge up time. He also goes to ssj1 instantly when he shows his different levels, ssj3 is now normally the one that takes a lot of time. Which makes some sense if revival f is still canon. They need time to break in a new form.
    ===
    “E.g., busting a planet has generally taken some charge up. All of Gokus Kamahahas in Super recently have taken him time and thats him at peak..”

    He pulled a few of them out as a reflex.

  67. Ninja Lowk October 19, 2015 at 8:16 am -      #1267

    “None of them act faster than he can react because they spend a long time standing around charging and complaining.”

    oh, let me try one.
    Kain won’t be able to do anything because he’ll be to busy monologuing to himself about what’s happening.

  68. Soulerous October 19, 2015 at 9:15 am -      #1268

    Don’t get pulled into arguing again, guys. We have 13 votes. His continued posts are meaningless, and not worth responding to because he’ll never accept that he’s wrong.

  69. Kitten Lord October 19, 2015 at 2:08 pm -      #1269

    @Numin

    “That’s because anything less will have absolutely no effect on Beerus.”


    We have no idea what would actually effect Beerus, we have seen some of Gokus basic slaps early on in Super cause bruising/sores when even his strongest ki blasts appeared to do nothing.

    “Provide a quantifiable number for Kain’s reaction times, until then, they do.”

    That is not how it works. Until they do anything other than hang about then bringing up their reaction times is a waste.

    “Absolutely no proof Kain could survive that level of energy, even if he could he is BFR’d into space and loses anyway.”

    There is nothing to prove they themselves could survive that level of energy other than maybe Buu. Also he is an immortal, of course he would survive.

    “Going down this route we can say they can counter Kain’s TK with their own, afterall we know they can TK using Ki, and you can’t prove they can’t just because they haven’t shown.
    We use the best shown feats for a reason”

    This is actually a different question entirely. They have never actually been able to counter or target TK at all, wheras Kain can TK. We do not even know if they can percieve or sense it, and when Krillin was hit by what appeared to be TK, he panicked and quickly died…

    They do not likely know what TK is, at least how Kain does it.

    “Except for all the times they have.”

    Very few I would wager. I showed about 40+ sources in my super post that shows us most of the people on my list here hanging about, or having some sort of character trait that makes it unlikely that they will start before Kain has even got a hit on them.

    “A recent example was Gohan moving so fast everyone else was basically frozen.”

    Which makes as much sense as the universe destrtroying wave in super, its just nonsense.

    “Just goes to show they have very good eyesight and appropriate reactions for it.”

    This is supposition. We cannot tell how much of their fights Vegeta could actually see at that distance. And that only goes for Vegeta, the rest of the Z fighters went up their in a ship.

    “Feats for Kain’s reaction times?”

    The dimension teleport is the best one;

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cf1RMfS0xvk&t=3m14s

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cf1RMfS0xvk&t=5m5s

    At least fast enough to react to some guy screaming at him for 20 minutes while boasting of his power….

    @Lowk

    “Speed wise they are in the mach ranges, low-end supersonic.”

    You say they, but they never do move at those speeds. You do not have to be as fast as a bullet unless your crossing the same space as one. every DBZ feat concerning bullets can be either argued as the catcher being far enough away from the gun that the bullet would have to travel far further than them or the bullets are so close you would not have to move your hands much at all to block them.

    When ever in the series have they started a fight without any charge up at all, and then gone straiught to supersonic+ at their opponent? I am betting either never or few, because that seems to me what their going to do in this match.

    Even though, most matches they hang about charging, talking nonsense through arrogance and the rest of it. Character flaws.

    “oh, let me try one.
    Kain won’t be able to do anything because he’ll be to busy monologuing to himself about what’s happening.”

    Funnily enough, Kain can monologue while fighting as shown in the Defiance comic. Course, he does not monologue while fighting otherwise, that is like the only time hes been fighting (if you can call it a fight against ants like the Sarafan) and talked while doing so.

    Everything Kain does takes seconds at most. While all the best stuff Z fighters do takes them minutes more often than not.

    @Soulerous

    “Don’t get pulled into arguing again, guys. We have 13 votes.”

    translation “oh gosh, please listen to my new rule like it means something!”

    “is continued posts are meaningless,”

    Says the guy continuing to post meaninglessly….I guess your the expert on it. Also do not lie, you do not have 13 votes as per rule 13. We had a bunch of new votes for DBZ, that is all…

    Your bandwagan fallacies and my huge stack of super posts and counter arguments are still in the way for an award and will always be, its not like you can come up with a convincing argument. Invent a new rule, and make sure the wording is clever enough for you to abuse me with.

  70. Marcel October 19, 2015 at 2:20 pm -      #1270

    @ Soulerous

    Votes for what? Does this even deserve an award at this point?

  71. Kitten Lord October 19, 2015 at 2:27 pm -      #1271

    It does not, hes invented a new rule specifically to try and tackle me. Yet he worded it so I could easily circumvent it and make it impossible for him to get real votes.

  72. Ninja Lowk October 19, 2015 at 2:50 pm -      #1272

    “You say they, but they never do move at those speeds. You do not have to be as fast as a bullet unless your crossing the same space as one.”

    I think your confusing two different feat or maybe I was to vage. The movement speed feats are from seperate feat then the reaction time feat. They do how make each other make sense when you take into account the highspeed combat thing.

    To add on to that there are mentions of the early bullet timers having a hard time of following fight of more powerful characters because they were moving to quickly.
    ===
    “Even though, most matches they hang about charging, talking nonsense through arrogance and the rest of it. Character flaws.”

    What exactly do they have to talk about here? They get the summery of who they are facing. Essentially it like a tournament where they fight when the say fight. Unless Kain going to start up a dialogue. The standard do you want to fight or I don’t want to fight or goading people into fighting is taken care of by the forced to fight to the death thing.

  73. Kitten Lord October 19, 2015 at 2:57 pm -      #1273

    @Lowk

    “To add on to that there are mentions of the early bullet timers having a hard time of following fight of more powerful characters because they were moving to quickly.”

    I know, we calculated that they could not have been moving at supersonic speed. Mea calculated it actually, the impulse of a mass the size of Goku for example hitting the ground at supersonic speed would shatter the area or at least cause a lot of damage.

    “What exactly do they have to talk about here?”

    Every Z match in the series starts and ends with some banter. Even if its just Goku saying how he cant wait to fight someone or test himself, or Cell/Frieza bragging about their power, or just trying to cause pain to someone.

    Nappa is the worst, he stands around despite being there to kill people and charges for ages, then he just stands there imrpessively until Goku makes fun of him. Only that is not Kains methods, he does not fight like they do, he kills, that is all.

    “The standard do you want to fight or I don’t want to fight or goading people into fighting is taken care of by the forced to fight to the death thing.”

    I cannot recall many sagas in DBZ when their not fighting to the death. They still have character flaws.

    When Kain wants to kill someone he does it. He does not stand there for 20 minutes talking about how amazing he is and lets people hit him because hes so convinced hes invincible. Even though…he technically is.

  74. Soulerous October 19, 2015 at 3:07 pm -      #1274

    @Marcel- Votes against Kitten Lord via Rule 13.
    factpile.com/2812-factpile-debating-rules/
    ~
    It was made because Kitten Lord has made himself a major problem over so many threads by failing to debate properly yet refusing to back down.

  75. Kitten Lord October 19, 2015 at 3:29 pm -      #1275

    People debating, even stubbornly is not an issue unless someone gets all upset about it and begs for a rule in place so they can work around their short comings as a debater. not being able to convince your opponent of your claims or prove them is not anyone else s problem.

    Constantly claiming someone is not debating properly is also useless either way. For example all the fallacies I have outlined for you and Ptaine are ignored and you will never admit you made any at all, even when you clearly made them.

    Your favorite seems to be an appeal to popularity.

  76. Marcel October 19, 2015 at 3:40 pm -      #1276

    @ Soulerous

    So this is not FP award related?

  77. Soulerous October 19, 2015 at 4:14 pm -      #1277

    So this is not FP award related?
    -Nope.
    ~
    Your favorite seems to be an appeal to popularity.
    -None of this has anything to do with argumentum ad populum. We’re not claiming to be right because we have the majority. We’re claiming to be right because our logic is sound. The 10-vs-1 thing isn’t proof of correctness, it’s a way to officially make someone’s arguments not matter, which is an addition to the practical effect of that someone simply not convincing anyone else.
    ~
    Constantly claiming someone is not debating properly is also useless either way.
    -I am not trying to convince you with it. You’re the one that’s making comments to me about how you’re so right and I’m so desperate and fallacy-prone, which is not convincing at all. And kind of annoying, to be honest.

  78. Ninja Lowk October 19, 2015 at 4:23 pm -      #1278

    “I know, we calculated that they could not have been moving at supersonic speed.”

    And there have been calculation putting them at above supersonic. One was recent which I did that put them at mach 4 at the lowest.
    The other have been goku traversing snake way(one million kilometers) in 28 hours which puts him at mach 28.9.
    There’s also gotenks traveling around the world in a few seconds. Which is, well lets just say it is in the hypersonic ranges.

    Why do you get so fixated on one feat? I’m pretty sure others have brought up at least one of those. I find hard to find a debate involving dragon ball that doesn’t have it. That’s like their go to move.

    Side note, damn you for making look up DB feats I forgot. I wish the Superman and Goku pair would just stop entirely for a bit. Maybe go with Thor for Goku and maybe Toriko or One-Punch or some other crazy as anime for Superman.
    ===
    “Mea calculated it actually, the impulse of a mass the size of Goku for example hitting the ground at supersonic speed would shatter the area or at least cause a lot of damage.”

    There are several occasions when they fight and collide so hard they create shockwaves or cause the world around them to tremble. There’s also when Zarbon flew so fast that when he slammed Vegeta into the ground it created and it created an explosion leaving a crater in the ground. Not to mention when Goku fought Frieza and their initial clash created a huge crater.
    What scene are you talking about?
    ===
    “Every Z match in the series starts and ends with some banter.”

    Because they normally have something to Banter about. Piccolo and Goku started fighting when the gong sounded.

  79. Marcel October 19, 2015 at 4:48 pm -      #1279

    @ Soulerous

    Oh, ok. Makes more sense now. Well, I haven’t been a part of this debate, so I won’t vote unless I read the whole arguments on either side. Judging from the match title and the fact that Kitten still believes Kain can pull off a W, I could make a judgement call. But I won’t because that’s hardly fair to my integrity as a debater and Kitten’s. So I may leave this alone for now; thanks for clearing that up!

  80. Mea quidem sententia October 19, 2015 at 5:33 pm -      #1280

    @Kitten Lord
    I’m not saying both are the same. I’m saying you affect one, you automatically affect the other. Since we can liken the brain to hardware and the mind to software, if you don’t have any hardware, software is rendered useless. Without a fount, water cannot flow. If the Sun wasn’t present, the sunlight wouldn’t be, either.

    Your opponents assert there is a distance because of what the Seer tells Kain. This means the onus is on you.

    They are not assumptions. They’re observations. Telekinesis clearly works in a world that involves dimensions and time. I know what “distant movement” means, which involves both. So if it involves the motion of an object from a distance, it is not an assumption. You keep using the word “will” or you keep saying that Kain “wills it” or is “willing it”. “Will” is part of the mind, just like thoughts, memories, the self. There is nothing abstract about it like some might think, although we can form metaphors to describe these things. It’s no more abstract than software on a computer. I think the late Julian Jaynes describes language and metaphors pretty well in his book, The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind.

    Telling me Kain wills this or that with his mind is like me saying that I will my fingers to press these keys on the keyboard with my mind. How Kain is manipulating these objects with his mind is currently unknown, hence the reason why people have been using physics to explain this. A character of mine is a cyborg and she possesses radio-enhanced telepathy, meaning that she can pick up radio waves with her mind to receive messages or to send messages into the minds of others who may have a brain with a built-in device. Just because something can be supernatural, doesn’t mean it cannot be explained by physical means, especially if said supernatural ability is interacting with the physical world. Why do you think skeptics demand people who claim to have psychic powers to demonstrate it so it can be naturally explained? The word “supernatural” honestly means nothing. It’s just an ad hoc for the unexplained.

    I understand that Kain is a vampire. I understand that vampires aren’t real. Neither is telekinesis, so you’re content with treating it as supernatural, but since when does the supernatural automatically mean limitless distance? It doesn’t. Since it’s clear that there is a distance as it is said by the Seer that Kain will be able to use his telekinesis at a great distance, it’s telling us what the range is. People here are waiting to see what that range is. So far, I’d say 10 m. based on what I observed with Kain lifting Moebius. If you can offer something greater, then that can be used.

    There is motion, hence the word “kinetic”. Kain may will people with his mind, or perhaps he isn’t, considering he tends to raise his arm a lot before his telekinesis even works. If telekinesis was immaterial and abstract, it wouldn’t affect anything. The mind is affected by space-time because the brain has dimensions and changes through time.

    I recall a direct quote using the word “kinetic energy”. Anything in motion has kinetic energy. That includes the mind. It’d be difficult to even have any thoughts or to will yourself to do something if your mind lacked kinetic energy. Again, “telekinesis” has the word origin where we also get “kinetic”. I also recall words like “energy” and “force” being used in the manuals. The former is kg m^2/s^2 while the latter is kg m/s^2. I know nothing will be changed here. I suppose I felt the need to commentate.

  81. Kitten Lord October 20, 2015 at 6:04 am -      #1281

    @Soulerous

    “I am not trying to convince you with it. You’re the one that’s making comments to me about how you’re so right and I’m so desperate and fallacy-prone, which is not convincing at all. ”

    Oh I know you will not admit your fallacies and you will not admit your desperation. But the beauty of it is, you give me undeniable proof regardless of your claims in your rule 13.

    It proves the line of thought for a rule, which is essentially a fallacy. Appeal to popularity is literally getting a lot of people to say someone is wrong, therefore they are. You dodging that fact is irrelevant.

    Although I admit I do not like what it represents, I do like the rule itself for what it is. A trophy of my win in this thread against fallacious logic, since it is literally a rule in fallacious form and it has your name plastered all over it.

    So I do not really need to point out anything, you admit in that rule likely without realizing it your dependence on a fallacy and how your logic works, and further your inadequacy in this debate. I could not have asked for a treat better than this Soul so thanks.

    So I have Souls head as a trophy on my belt. Whos next?

    @Lowk

    “And there have been calculation putting them at above supersonic. One was recent which I did that put them at mach 4 at the lowest.”

    Which ones? because if their anything like;

    “The other have been goku traversing snake way(one million kilometers) in 28 hours which puts him at mach 28.9.”

    No, because snakeway as shown in the scans is not straiught. The calculation done by deathbattles is also wrong, because if you look at the scans in the manga, snakeway sometimes also curves, it does not just undulate, it does loops. We have no idea how many weird shapes the snakeway does or how inneficatnt it is.

    Snakeway is also a realm outside of regular universe where planets have weird masses regardless of size, clouds are candy and float in this void and cars can ride upside down on this snakeway. We have no idea of the physics, we have no idea if the speed Goku was going was as fast as claimed purely because we do not see him travel the whole lot or what it consists of.

    “There’s also gotenks traveling around the world in a few seconds. Which is, well lets just say it is in the hypersonic ranges.”

    This is literally the only time someone moved quickly, and it was not within atmosphere, it was outside of the planet, further away from the pull of gravity and it was also a child using up his limited energy for laughs.

    No one has ever traveled that fast, not even God Goku or Beerus.

    “What scene are you talking about?”

    Well you mentioned people not being able to keep up with them did you not? So I thought you were talking about Gokus battle with Piccolo.

    “Because they normally have something to Banter about.”

    Do they? what do Frieza and Goku really have to talk about? Or nappa and Goku? Nappa had literally just more or less killed or broken his friends and Goku still stands about, Nappa too while watching Goku heal his buddies even though hes aggressive and there to kill in the first place.

    Frieza is a monster and just wants to cause pain, they hardly have a interesting discussion. Their just throwing jibes.

    @Mea

    “if you don’t have any hardware, software is rendered useless. ”

    Clearly not in Legacy of Kain because they still have thought and will even when spiritual, and they also still have thought and will when transformed into mist ala Kain…

    Your making the same mistake as Soul, your trying to connect some facts with humans with the supernatural that is kains universe.

    “Your opponents assert there is a distance because of what the Seer tells Kain. This means the onus is on you.”

    They assert that Kain has a range limit, and at X range he could not TK. This is absurd considering his medium and all he needs to move something, his will wanting it to. But all that aside, nothing the Seer tells Kain suggests TK is limited via distance.

    “you keep saying that Kain “wills it” or is “willing it”. “Will” is part of the mind, just like thoughts, memories, the self. There is nothing abstract about it like some might think,”

    You literally described some more “abstract” concepts. Thought is abstract, the brain that is responsible for it may be solid, it may be hardware like you suggest but some of the things like will are not physical themselves.

    “Telling me Kain wills this or that with his mind is like me saying that I will my fingers to press these keys on the keyboard with my mind.”

    Only, your fingers are directly connected to your body and move via your whim. kain whims other things into movement not connected to his nervous system…

    That is the nature of TK being supernatural and not really understandable by science. It makes no sense in reality but it works in LoK because its a fiction.


    ” have been using physics to explain this”

    They have been trying to claim they can use physics. They have been spitting out ideas that they “belive” they can use but nothing cna explain someone just willing something happening.

    Someones pure will alone should not be enough to make anything happen. Pure will alone is not enough to make your arms move, that requires the physical mussles and what not, the nervous system. Hence why a man without those things cannot make his severed hand move…

    Kain can make it move, Kain can make his mist form body move…does it make sense? no of course not, its fiction.

    “Why do you think skeptics demand people who claim to have psychic powers to demonstrate it so it can be naturally explained? ”

    So they can determine whether it is real or not? The point remains it is irrelevent when your discussing fiction. Something does not have to be scientifically explained to be considered real within a fiction. If it happens, it exists.

    ” but since when does the supernatural automatically mean limitless distance? ”

    Your misunderstanding my stance. I ask since when does any power, TK or otherwise suddenly mean distance is a factor to be considered as a limit? And I will bold this, to be considered as a limit, how does someone who merely needs to will something to move suddenly not be able to because their 500 meters away from him? it makes no logical sense at all to assume thus.

    The medium itself is not a physical arm. The question of distance is logical if your propelling X thing X distance. Mass requiring thrust to move etc. This is not happeing with TK.

    The mass kain moves with TK obviously is argued under those rules I agree to that. A sarafan being thrown moves in accordance with the force Kain chooses to throw him with.

    “I’d say 10 m. based on what I observed with Kain lifting Moebius. If you can offer something greater, then that can be used.”

    Kain did not throw Moebius 10 meters. Maybe closer to half that.

    “Kain may will people with his mind, or perhaps he isn’t, considering he tends to raise his arm a lot before his telekinesis even works. If telekinesis was immaterial and abstract, it wouldn’t affect anything.”

    There is no “perhaps he isnt”, since its stated in the manuels and by the seer he uses only his mind, only his will. A person does not always do things they need to do, it appears to be a reflex. For example, when picking up a cup or drinking something, my little fingers often rise up. They do not have to, but its a habit.

    So to use the same example as Kain, if he felt being in physical form was a danger to him because his enemies were shooting or swinging punches at him. Transforming into mist and then using TK or mind attacks would work wonders.

    If someone said if I raised my little finger, it would be chopped off, I would not have to raise it.

    In reality no, and our will does not affect anything. But Kains does. That is the exception Soul ignores and so is working against one of his new rules. Just like he works against his other new rule 13. He ignores the parts that counter his argument in using it.

    ” Anything in motion has kinetic energy. ”

    Indeed, the bodies Kain moves have kinetic energy. But his will is not moving, its in his head. Its an abstract and therefore does not move in 3d space. And if you want to argue Kains brain has X waves that move then maybe his brain does, but were not talking about his brain which is honestly debatable in itself considering he is a magically animated cadavre, its doubtful his brain is even functional and is certainly not required as I mentioned before, spiritual beings or beings in mist form still have their cognitive functions.

    Kain does not need his body or his brain to think. No more than he needs the heart of darkness to remain active.

    ” I also recall words like “energy” and “force” being used in the manuals.”

    Energy was only used while describing the resource players have to manipulate in-game. The manuels also mention a lot of player resoureces and power ups….

    As for force, that does not change anything with what we have here. We know the subject of kains TK is often under some kind of force, the fact he can create force purely with his will is mystical, supernatural and impressive to say the least.

    Then again, were talking about someone who can fathom infnite pathways in time and come to the conclusion on one to use, and actually be correct in using it…

  82. Ninja Lowk October 20, 2015 at 11:04 am -      #1282

    “Which ones? because if their anything like;”

    The one with Beerus and Goku going from upper atmosphere to sea level.Which funny enouggh the high end actually is around the same speed as snake way.
    ===
    “No, because snakeway as shown in the scans is not straiught.”

    What does that have to do with it stated as being 1000000 miles? Hell even if we cut the distance in half it’s still doubt digit mach speed. Even cutting it down to a quarter of the length its still giving a speed above supersonic.
    ===
    “We have no idea of the physics, we have no idea if the speed Goku was going was as fast as claimed purely because we do not see him travel the whole lot or what it consists of.”

    Until Goku got to King Kai planet where the gravity was heavier he seemed to be operating as he normally did when he was on earth.
    ===
    “This is literally the only time someone moved quickly”

    Goku on snake ways, Gohan moving so fast people stood still, Beerus and goku, Whis, the fact that several people could move faster then a bullet timer can keep up with.
    ===
    “and it was not within atmosphere, it was outside of the planet”

    If we take account that sayian can’t survive in space, yet alone a human hybrid then he ould’ve had to at least be in some layer of earth’s atmosphere right? Either way a speed feat is a speed feat. He can move that fast.
    ===
    ” it was also a child using up his limited energy for laughs.”

    That’s actually more impressive that it was casual now considering that as of right now, Beerus, Kid Buu, Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan have more energy then him.
    ===
    “No one has ever traveled that fast, not even God Goku or Beerus.”

    Wouldn’t Beerus flying from the planet and putting a lot of space between it and him be around that same level of speed?
    ===
    “what do Frieza and Goku really have to talk about?”

    He found out if it was Frieza and told him to stop picking on Vegeta. Frieza was realizing that he was a saiyan, one that looked like a particular . Then Frieza attacked Goku before he finished saying “your call” at highspeed.
    So history and when fight was started on of the fighters tried to attack early.

    “Or nappa and Goku?”

    He was filling him in on all the friends of his he killed and squared up to attack him. Again History, they actually had something to talk about. Nappa tried to engage but Goku was worried about his son and friend and effortlessly dodged him. So there was an actual attempt he just failed at it and was left confused.

  83. Ninja Lowk October 20, 2015 at 11:10 am -      #1283

    “his will wanting it to”

    His will alone was limited in range both shown and noted. Why are you still using that as a excuse of tk’s range not being limited?

  84. Soulerous October 20, 2015 at 11:40 am -      #1284

    Oh I know you will not admit your fallacies and you will not admit your desperation.
    -Because I have none. What if I said you have lots of both and I know you won’t admit it?
    ~
    This is another example of you declaring yourself to be right as if it means something. And yet you said, just last post, “Constantly claiming someone is not debating properly is also useless either way.”
    ~
    And you went on to say immediately after: “all the fallacies I have outlined for you and Ptaine are ignored and you will never admit you made any at all, even when you clearly made them.” You cannot say it’s useless for us to say you’re wrong and then turn around and say we’re wrong as if that statement matters.
    ~
    But the beauty of it is, you give me undeniable proof regardless of your claims in your rule 13.
    -Rule 13 is proof that people consider you a problem, not that anyone is desperate.
    ~
    since it is literally a rule in fallacious form and it has your name plastered all over it.
    -It now has your name on it as well, and don’t forget that it was Admin’s idea, not mine. Most, if not quite all, of the phrasing was my idea.
    More important than that is this false idea that the rule is fallacious. A rule cannot be in “fallacious form.” There is no fallacy in ignoring someone who is being obnoxious. The fallacy would be in saying you’re wrong because everyone disagrees with you; that’s not the point of it. It’s no more fallacious in principle than a moderator telling you to shut up.
    ~
    So I have Souls head as a trophy on my belt.
    -As far as I’m concerned, Ptaine, Mea, Friendlysocipath, Lowk, myself, and others have completely destroyed your arguments. Like I’ve told you, I’m aware that you think you’re right and we’re wrong. Telling me again in different ways won’t make it matter, nor change the fact that you are completely alone in your musings. All you actually have for a trophy is the condemnation of nearly everyone aimed at your arguments.

  85. Mea quidem sententia October 20, 2015 at 2:33 pm -      #1285

    @Kitten Lord
    You could be right. The soul of the characters in the series may very well retain their memories because the mind is separate from the brain. However, that would not mean that because of this, distance is limitless. After all, if you start to ask questions about the concept of the soul (and I’m not sure if you personally believe in the supernatural), then you could ask how large or small the soul is. Is it the same size as you? Is the soul omnipresent? If there is a restraint with regard to the soul (and it appears there is in the LoK series as someone like Raziel isn’t this nebulous, ubiquitous blob and he consumes souls), then there is no reason to think that telekinesis has limitless range.

    It’s evident that there is a range because the Seer says “great distance”. “Great” in this context means “of an extent, amount, or intensity considerably above average.” So the extent of this distance is considerably above average, but just by how far is indeterminable because we weren’t given a specific range. This is why we’re working with what we observe. You know, observing things just like scientists do? I find it odd that you use the word “medium” when a medium is a means by which something is communicated or expressed. For example, to hear sound, you need a solid, liquid, gas, or plasma. In a hard vacuum like space, there is hardly anything for sound to even travel. Light travels by means of radiation.

    Thoughts are also not abstract. I can use words that describe events through metaphors, but thoughts aren’t abstract. They are physical and concrete. A neuron is an excitable cell in the nervous system that processes and transmit information by electrochemical signaling. That’s how your thoughts travel. That’s how sensation travels. Since the will is part of the mind, it is also physical. How Kain uses telekinesis may very well use a supernatural means to generate force and energy in order to move objects at a distance. That’s fine. But that in no way says that telekinesis has unlimited range. This is why Aelfinn keeps saying you, “Great argument. Can you now show us that telekinesis travels 100 meters?”

    Since when does any power suddenly mean distance is a factor to be considered a limit? “Great distance” gives us a limit. It’s not like Mewtwo’s feat where a school bus is hanging over an edge and Mewtwo uses his telekinesis to get the bus back onto the road in spite of Mewtwo watching this over a television set. There is no evidence that Kain’s range is based on his sight, especially since there is a limited range from the Seer. Do we know the range? No. Do we have any reason to assume it’s limitless? No. Being supernatural doesn’t mean “limitless”. In fiction, there are psychic characters who use telekinesis and there is a struggle at times to the point that their nose bleeds. This doesn’t occur with Kain, but it does illustrate a point. That point is how much power does Kain’s telekinesis generate? I’ve never seen him hold two things at once. Funnily, what makes no logical sense is telekinesis, and yet, here you are defending its range.

  86. Kitten Lord October 20, 2015 at 3:39 pm -      #1286

    @Soul


    “This is another example of you declaring yourself to be right”

    Like your doing here;

    “As far as I’m concerned, Ptaine, Mea, Friendlysocipath, Lowk, myself, and others have completely destroyed your arguments.”

    ” I’m aware that you think you’re right and we’re wrong. Telling me again in different ways won’t make it matter, nor change the fact that you are completely alone in your musings”

    Although I agree its a waste of time because you will not admit it directly I also go on to say with quite joy the fact you admit it indirectly in how you shaped your rule, or should i say fallacy with your name on it. Even better, you pinned the name yourself, or Admin did…

    “not that anyone is desperate.”

    Its incredibly desperate to invent two rules in as many weeks purely to try and undermine someone who is giving you a hard time. Its even more amusing when you still think its of use to you when its effectively my resource and trophy that you think this fallacious bandwagon of yours helps you.

    “There is no fallacy in ignoring someone who is being obnoxious. ”

    No, there is fallacy is believing X number of people voting against someone makes that person wrong and you have shaped this rule in the image of your logic and then Admin has quite helpfully slapped your name all over it, I thank you for at least in some way showing your admission to being prone to fallacious logic.

    “As far as I’m concerned, ”

    Your concern is of no interest to me.

    ” It’s no more fallacious in principle than a moderator telling you to shut up.”

    We do not have moderators with that sort of authority, and if someone did so, it would be of no more relevance than yours. The rule is essentially an appeal to popularity, someone telling another to shut up is just them being rude.

    Luckily, I came up with some extra wording to avoid its misuse. The rule is not a good representation of BankGambling, and as i asked Admin it should be removed but there you go… if he wants it in, its his site…

    “It now has your name on it as well, and don’t forget that it was Admin’s idea, not mine. Most, if not quite all, of the phrasing was my idea.”

    I do not belive you. It has your name on it, Admin gave you the credit for coming up with its phrasing, and you literally may as well copied and pasted an appeal to popularity. Were done here, nothing you can say now will ever take away the fact I have this trophy that you gave me of your indirect admission to fallacious reasoning.

    Anyone who fails to convince someone, then runs to a authority to shape a fallacy for them to help them out is not worth replying to. Course, we say this all the time and I will still reply to you, do not worry Souly old boy.

    @Mea

    ” However, that would not mean that because of this, distance is limitless.”

    It means the arguments of neutrons and what not fireing for thought can be thrown out the window when considering kain. Since he can retain thought as either mist or a spirit.

    “then you could ask how large or small the soul is”

    This is irrelevant. Size is a physical property, not an abstract or spiritual one. You can ask how large it “appears” but it may not be relevant at all.

    “It’s evident that there is a range because the Seer says “great distance”. “Great” in this context means “of an extent, amount, or intensity considerably above average.” So the extent of this distance is considerably above average,”

    This is again questionable. great can mean anything from a large amount of something, an extensive amount of something etc. It does not admit to any actual range.

    “You know, observing things just like scientists do? I”

    You cannot observe someones whim and then scale it on a range concerning distance. its like taking a quantity only 3d objects have and trying to scale it alongside something only 2d objects have or w/e. Poor example admittadly but my point being, your taking something that is not a quantity or statistic that is part of thought or the mind or will and scaling it from there.

    “. That’s how sensation travels. Since the will is part of the mind, it is also physical”

    Again this is exactly the same as saying the brain is the same as the thoughts. Their not the same as I told you. You have the brain that is the physical, and then you have the abstract mind and the thoughts that come from it.

    “This is why Aelfinn keeps saying you”

    He says it because he knows he cannot form an argument why TK has a limited range at all, or if it even can have. his comment is ignorant of the fact the medium kain uses is just his will. It happens because he wants it to.

    ” Do we know the range? No. Do we have any reason to assume it’s limitless? ”

    We have no reason at all to assume its even limited by range. Which is was my point. You keep saying the Seer describing something as “great” means its got a range but this is not true. I can describe an infnite process and being great in length of time, or distance or w/e as well. Anyone can.

    For example someone lwho literally has infnite strength, like say a superhero who can lift anything in any amount could be considered as having “great strength”, this does not at all suggest he is limited in any way.

    “Funnily, what makes no logical sense is telekinesis, and yet, here you are defending its range.”

    I am not defending its range, I am outlining that asking what range does Telekinesis, or rather, what distance does Kains will have is no more logical then asking how much sustenance does my smile give you…or how far does my beliefs travel in meters squared….what is the mass of Soulerous’ reason…etc

    just absurd questions.

    @lowk

    “The one with Beerus and Goku going from upper atmosphere to sea level”


    That as i outlined is not a good speed feat because it is highly relevant that their travelling towards the earth, not breaking away from it and even more so that their acceleration began in space. Even more, their strikes against eachother would aid in their fall.

    The fact that the force they output from striking eachother AND flying down with gravity from the acceleration from space only gives them as much as is claimed for very early Goku on Snakeway is not a good feat is it for the top tiers of the series?

    “What does that have to do with it stated as being 1000000 miles?”

    Well, your talking about when Goku flew right? when he was walking it took him days or weeks or w/e….

    kai claimed (cant recall if Goku really did travel it in that speed but w/e) Goku can now fly over it, which will now take much less. Its important, because something being 10k miles long but being twistling and turning and looping that length is irrelevent to someone flying over it.

    obviously, this is why Goku is now faster.

    “Until Goku got to King Kai planet where the gravity was heavier he seemed to be operating as he normally did when he was on earth.”

    Its impossible to say how it works still. We do not know how the gravity of the snakeway works the further you get out for example.;, if Snakeway has X mass and thus is projecting enough of a gravitational field to hold people to it as they travel it, this field may lessen the further they travel out just like a planet, which means it may come up to little to nothing frictional or gravitational by the time Goku is flying above it..

    That is one example. my main point is we do not know the physics or an “otherworld”, we only know their celestial bodies and some of the things we see are weird….

    “If we take account that sayian can’t survive in space, yet alone a human hybrid then he ould’ve had to at least be in some layer of earth’s atmosphere right? Either way a speed feat is a speed feat. He can move that fast.”

    Its important to know the specifics of the speed feat. Someone moving fast in a vaccume or in low gravity is not as impressive or equal to someone moving fast under much higher gravity, friction among other things on the planet itself.

    Accleration would be very different. Also I think Akira chooses when to bring up people breathing in space or not. I mean, Goku seemed to be fine in Super fighting Beerus in space, yet complains when he was under water…

    “That’s actually more impressive that it was casual now considering that as of right now, Beerus, Kid Buu, Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan have more energy then him.”

    They have more, but they use it in combat. They use it in ki blasts, they use it in their blows I imagine, they do not all hit the same strength I assume? Gotenks did not care, he had limited energy and burned it just to fly.

    So you could argue, potentially if they were in the same situation we could theoretically suggest Goku and beerus could keep up with Gotenks in space if they burned their energy to do so and left none for fighting strength or energy attacks.

    unless Gotenks just has greater speed for some reason.

    “Wouldn’t Beerus flying from the planet and putting a lot of space between it and him be around that same level of speed?”


    Not sure, would need more calculation. Gotenks flew around the planet more than once.

    “Frieza was realizing that he was a saiyan, one that looked like a particular ”

    Right but still hanging about, banter. None of them aggressively went for the kill right off the bat. Nobody has ever done that iirc.

    “Then Frieza attacked Goku before he finished saying “your call” at highspeed.”

    Again though, more hurbris and threats. Goku literally lets Frieza power up to full power despite the world, nay maybe even their universe being in the hands of a tyrant just because he wanted to see Friezas full strength. He is a glutton for seeing everything his opponent can do.

    Frieza stood around a lot in all his fights jibing at how superior he was.

    Why would he not do this in this match? What would he not stand there telling Kain how pathetic he is, how he has no chance? Why wouldnt Goku hang about and let Kain give him his best shot.

    Same with Nappa, Cell even let people live and made a stadium just because he wanted everyone to fight him again, even though he won before in a lot of matches.

    And this is all before AND after they have charged up their power. I am not even sure they can even see Kains power level, he may be dark to them being a magical undead and all…a mystery.

    “He was filling him in on all the friends of his he killed and squared up to attack him. ”

    Exactly jibes, “look how strong I am, I killed all your friends yadda yadda, dont you feel sad?” etc, “you have no chance, i can take you!”, etc.

    Why would Nappa do something hes never done, like go straiught to killing someone without any jibes, banter or intimidation? that seems to be how he works, he thrives on intimidating the lesser Z fighters.

    “His will alone was limited in range both shown and noted. Why are you still using that as a excuse of tk’s range not being limited?”

    It was not limited, his teaching was. Once you take away the impossible, which is an abstract emotion or feeling of someone being even compared to distance then your left with the truth which is what she contunes to say. “as you were taught” which is logical. If you were taught poorly a concept then you may never push to go beyond those boundaries, real or imagined.

  87. Mea quidem sententia October 20, 2015 at 4:31 pm -      #1287

    @Kitten Lord
    Asking the size is not irrelevant because Raziel and the other dead people in the Spectral Realm, as well as the location itself has dimensions. So the point is that telekinesis has a range. We just don’t know how far.

    This is why I spoke of its context. “Large amount” doesn’t mean anything if you’re talking about how far something can travel. Connected with “distance” does admit range.

    We’re not talking about someone’s whims. We’re talking about an ability that has a range.

    I never said the brain is the same as thoughts and you know that. I’m fine with the LoK series going with the idea that the brain and mind are separate, but that doesn’t mean there is no limit for telekinesis, just because it’s supernatural.

    Aelfinn says what he says because he knows the onus is on you.

    We have a reason to assume it’s limited by range.

    “Agh! Good, yes, drink, my dark prince. Feel my powers coursing through your veins. You can manipulate objects already by sheer will alone. But as you were taught, you can only use this ability at close range. By drinking my blood, you will be granted the gift of Telekinesis. You will be able to manipulate objects at a great distance. And, you will be able to activate this symbol, and enter the Device.” – The Seer, BO2

    “But as you were taught, you can only use this ability at close range.” Close range. How close? Who knows? “By drinking my blood [. . .] you will be able to manipulate objects at a great distance.” You cannot contest this. You can pretend it’s not there. You can pretend this means something else. The context is plain and is concerned with two things: obtaining the gift of telekinesis and being able to use it farther than before. You can describe an infinite process being great in length of time. Distance wouldn’t make sense if you’re talking about a process, not traveling. Not that this matters, since you need to provide the distance at which telekinesis can travel. Otherwise, what we see is what we get.

    If there was a character who had infinite strength, but all we saw him/her lift was a sedan, we could only assume he/she can lift 2+ metric tons until we saw more feats. If it was explicitly said by word of god or by someone who is omniscient in the series that this character has infinite strength, then there would be no reason to argue otherwise.

    I didn’t make the LoK series, so I’m sorry that you think asking how far telekinesis can travel seems illogical or absurd. But because range is clearly stated to be “great”, or greater than before, the question is not absurd. We know smiles don’t give sustenance to anyone. We know your beliefs don’t travel. We know Soulerous’ reason doesn’t contain mass because we know that these things we can observe in the real world don’t make any sense. But telekinesis doesn’t actually exist, so asking what range it travels is perfectly valid, especially when we’re told that Kain will be able to manipulate objects at a “great distance”

  88. Soulerous October 20, 2015 at 4:42 pm -      #1288

    So negative, Kitten. Of course I don’t think I’ve argued with fallacies. I emailed Admin because no progress was being made, not because I thought I was losing. And he suggested the new rule, which I offered phrasing for in my reply. Saying I’m lying about that isn’t a valid counter.
    You have no factual basis for calling me desperate or saying I’ve admitted to fallacious reasoning. I’m not, and I haven’t. And for the third time, no one is saying you’re wrong because a lot of people think you’re wrong. That isn’t the message here. And if you’re not interested in what concerns me, why have you put so much time and effort into making personal comments about me?
    There’s no need to go around in circles. You think you’re right, I think you’re wrong. You think I’m desperate, I think you’re arrogant. We each know where the other stands. It’s a good idea to stop speculating about my motivations and feelings, though.

  89. Ninja Lowk October 20, 2015 at 5:09 pm -      #1289

    “That as i outlined is not a good speed feat because it is highly relevant that their travelling towards the earth, not breaking away from it and even more so that their acceleration began in space. Even more, their strikes against eachother would aid in their fall.”

    And as I noted Gravity only assist so much and the punches would’ve only assisted if they had been punchin each other towards the ground which they weren’t. At the least your still looking at mach 4 high end match us with around the speed from the snake way feat.
    ===
    “Its impossible to say how it works still. We do not know how the gravity of the snakeway works the further you get out for example”

    It was working well enough to run normally for him and there was no mention of him feeling any adverse or aiding effects from it.
    ===
    “kai claimed (cant recall if Goku really did travel it in that speed but w/e) Goku can now fly over it, which will now take much less. Its important, because something being 10k miles long but being twistling and turning and looping that length is irrelevent to someone flying over it.”

    But he still had to travel the distance. And as I stated even cutting the distance travel belwo half is still above supersonic.
    ===
    “They have more, but they use it in combat.”

    They also use it to fly during said combat. Which is responsible for them doing the highspeed combat thing.

    This is getting old, can we at least agree that DBZ is at the very least capable of supersonic speed? Literally multiple occasion line up with them at least being that.
    There are various feats even when cut down to amuse downplaying still come up above supersonic. Character who are either bullet-timers or even match up with people like that have difficulty following the higher end people when they fight.
    ====
    “Not sure, would need more calculation. Gotenks flew around the planet more than once.”

    Getting any amount of distance from a planet atmosphere is in a short amount of time is definitely pushing past supersonic ranges.
    ===
    “Right but still hanging about, banter. None of them aggressively went for the kill right off the bat. Nobody has ever done that iirc.”

    Because they had something to talk about. Frieza was curious about the saiyan becasue he looked like the one he killed. When that was satisfied he tried to attack Goku before he though he could even finish his sentence.
    ===
    “Why would he not do this in this match?”

    Kain has no history with him. The Battle already handles the introductions. I mean if Kain wants to start up a conversation that’d probably get Frieza a quipping.

    Side note, Frieza blew 3 dudes. I mean he blew and sent them flying with like a tornado. I did not remember that.
    ===
    “Why wouldnt Goku hang about and let Kain give him his best shot.”

    Battle to the death in a match like scenario and he’s going for the win. It more like the scenario where he and piccolo jr started fight right after the gong sounded. There no talking Kain out of it. He can’t spare Kain either; there goes that speech. it straight up Goku is forced to kill this dude.
    ===
    “Same with Nappa”

    Nappa is weird. He started out by nuking an entire city. Then he went out and straight up attacked an entire army. No warning or boasting gesture to any of them. Just wanton massacre. But you don’t ever seem to bring that up.
    ===
    Cell I however will give you. Perfect Cell is probably the worst candidate of the bunch.
    ===
    “It was not limited, his teaching was.”

    Considering that he couldn’t I’d say whoever taught him was correct.
    ===
    “If you were taught poorly a concept then you may never push to go beyond those boundaries, real or imagined.”

    Except he didn’t train, get taught, or practice to reach further. I.E. He was never taught again, he was given a new power.

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