Kain Vs DBZ gauntlet

Kain vs DBZ gauntlet

Suggested by Kitten Lord

Kain (LOK) will run DBZ gauntlet

The gauntlet will consist of 10 DBZ characters;
1) Yamcha
2) Master Roshi
3) Nappa
4) Krillin (Cell Saga)
5) Perfect Cell
6) Gohan (Buu saga)
7) Buu (Kid Buu)
8) Piccolo (Post Buu Saga)
9) Vegeta (SS2, Battle of the Gods)
10) Goku (at his peak)
11) Beerus (At his peak)
Bonus round; All of them at once vs Kain if he gets it this far and beats Beerus.
Second Bonus; If he beats the Bonus, he fights Whis
Battlefield; Solar system, starting planet Earth somewhere in the middle of central park. 100 meters apart. The trees, hills etc have been flattened for the battlefield.
Rules; Kain gets his sword, all his powers and spells from the games, the DBZ characters do not generally have items so ill leave them with fisticuffs
Victory; DBZ characters have to permanently incapacitate Kain, as in, destroy his body, they do not have to destroy Kains soul to win. Kain has to kill/incapacitate all DBZ characters.

How will this end?

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1,184 Comments on "Kain Vs DBZ gauntlet"

  1. Ninja Lowk September 27, 2015 at 5:01 am -      #1101

    “I could say the same for you. There is no actual proof of your interpretation over mine.”

    Not really. They showed the background behind him they showed the area around him. There was no note of bullets flying off in the distance. No sound of ricocheting that normally accompanies the bullets in fiction. Nothing behind him was damaged either. If the author didn’t make a note of it, show it, didn’t even hint at it, then there is no evidence that it happened or that they even had the intent of such an event happening. There is no evidence to support you claim because you a reaching beyond what was implied to downplay an event with no actual supporting evidence other then your speculation.

    There is however evidence that he simply caught the bullets like he noted to the guy who shot at him. There is also the fact that other sayains, back when fighters were below thier current level of abilities, reacting to a bullet after it was fired. So there’s the scene itself and history to back up that it is in fact possible for someone of his race.
    ===
    “Beerus in Battle of the gods is subsonic for example even when trying.”

    Dragon Ball Super retconned events of the movie.

  2. ptaine September 27, 2015 at 9:08 am -      #1102

    “Your source said exactly what I did. Sound itself happens anywhere vibrations of particles can reach your ear drums.”
    .
    This would be a non-sequitur. Look at what I asked you, what you answered, and what I responded back with:
    .
    “So, sound doesn’t have a limited range?” No you can be anywhere in the universe and as long as particles can vibrate and there is actually something that creates sound you can hear it. False: Sound waves lose energy as they travel.
    .
    The important part you should focus in on is that you said sound has an unlimited range because sound can reach you as long as there are particles to vibrate. I showed that notion is false because sound loses energy as it travels. Meaning it cannot travel infinite distances. Meaning sound has a limited range. Meaning you are wrong, and the position you are attempting to take is an incorrect rebuttal.
    .
    “You claiming him moving his hand must mean there is energy transfer does not suddenly mean there could be energy transfer or that it is likely because he moved his hand or his hand glowed.”
    .
    Why? Why does your interpretation take precedence? Why are you insisting that there is no way possible that this could be indicative of energy transfer? Why do you get to decide that these things are only put there because the creators wanted to simply show that TK is happening? You literally do not have the proof to state that as absolute. Furthermore, I never claimed that these things MUST mean that there is energy transfer, I simply stated that this shows the possibility of energy transfer. A much different connotation.
    .
    “The BO 2 manuel and the Seer saying he uses only his mind to use telekinesis covers this, and how his hand moving is clearly simply personal habit.”
    .
    We’ll go through this every time apparently. I say that the Defiance Manual says energy, that statement is not a game mechanic because it literally exists in the game as something other than a game mechanic. I’m not going to accept your proof as adequate for proving that the only possible interpretation here is that the mind is the only thing used in TK. And, where does it say that moving his hand is personal habit? Where is your proof of that beyond your opinion?
    .
    “How am I wrong beyond you just claiming I am? Your whole argument is one big non sequiter after another. Kains hand moves so this means energy transfer is happening with TK? this is completely without evidence.”
    .
    I said these things point to the possibility of energy transfer. Focus on the word possibility because you’ve several times stated that I’ve said the means it has to happen or it must happen or whatever. But, the main thing is that you are wrong because you are using the same exact evidence that I am to interpret something, which I already said. You claimed that these things are put there by the creator to show that TK is happening and that is the only reason. You have absolutely no evidence supporting that. Just as you’ve supplied no evidence that his hand moving is personal habit, and not something that happens because there is energy transfer.
    .
    “The second one is TK and the first is not but both use only the will. And TK does have “only the mind” as its medium as per the manuel as well. All adds up.”
    .
    If they both use will, which I’m fine with, they should both be limited by distance as well. That isn’t what adds up here. Either they both use will and are limited by distance, OR since you claim that TK isn’t limited by distance because the Seer doesn’t say, TK doesn’t use will because the Seer doesn’t say it does. She only uses that statement for what he had before she gave him TK. You are being inconsistent with your application of logic and is why it doesn’t add up.
    .
    “problem is you cannot. Not without trying to twist words and meanings.”
    .
    Not at all. TK is immaterial much the same way sound is, so being “nonphysical” doesn’t automatically give TK a pass to ignore distance. This isn’t a twist of words, this is a literal definition that you continually ignore in favor of an interpretation that supports your position.

  3. Mea quidem sententia September 27, 2015 at 6:06 pm -      #1103

    @Aelfinn
    I would say photons are physical, just not massless. The two shouldn’t be synonymous.

    @Ninja Lowk
    If I break bricks with my hands, does it mean that if a brick is thrown at me, I won’t be injured? That’s how I’m taking this with Goku.

  4. Ninja Lowk September 27, 2015 at 7:08 pm -      #1104

    “Judging by USA vs UK- only another 10 pages or so.”
    -Friendlysociopath
    I wonder how much more is “or so”.
    ===
    @Mea
    He’d still be up thier in the superman tier taking a serious hit from and matching a casual planet buster. All he needs now is an FTL feat.

  5. CH1C4N0444 is allergic to bullets September 27, 2015 at 7:49 pm -      #1105

    “He’d still be up thier in the superman tier taking a serious hit from and matching a casual planet buster.”

    To be fair, Bills still hasn’t planet busted using his body, the one scene that he might have done it was incredibly contested(mostly by Aelfinn)and is currently being retconned.
    =
    ” All he needs now is an FTL feat.”

    And durability to match.
    =
    Honestly though, we still need to find out which takes precedence, manga or anime. Speaking of the anime, was the punch supposed to be last week or today’s episode?

  6. Numinous One September 27, 2015 at 7:53 pm -      #1106

    “Honestly though, we still need to find out which takes precedence, manga or anime. Speaking of the anime, was the punch supposed to be last week or today’s episode?”

    This time around the manga is the adaption of the anime, so the anime would take precedence.
    It was this weeks, episode 12.

  7. Soulerous September 27, 2015 at 7:56 pm -      #1107

    I would say photons are physical, just not massless. The two shouldn’t be synonymous.
    ~
    Sometimes they are synonymous. There are two different meanings of “physical” to be acknowledged in this debate, those being the common definition of “something material/corporeal” and the less-used “of or relating to physical laws.” Oxford Dictionaries places the latter fourth on the page. People usually mean something is made of matter when they talk about it being physical; why Kitten Lord thinks this is twisting the word is beyond me.

  8. CH1C4N0444 is allergic to bullets September 27, 2015 at 8:02 pm -      #1108

    “This time around the manga is the adaption of the anime, so the anime would take precedence.”

    Makes sense…

    Side note, really pissed off that DBS retconned BotG… Thought it was fine as is and didn’t need to be redone, but that’s just me…
    =
    “It was this weeks, episode 12.”

    Alright, I’m actually watching it at the moment.
    =
    EDIT: Just saw them now.

    Do you have access to the calc out of curiosity?

  9. Numinous One September 27, 2015 at 8:07 pm -      #1109

    “Do you have access to the calc out of curiosity?”

    Nope.
    Now that we know the specifics of the feat it’s impossible to calc.
    All we can really go off is that Beerus can reduce the universe to a vacuum devoid of everything with 3-5 punches.
    Goku should be capable of similar since he has to perfectly match his ki to cancel that out so everything wasn’t destroyed.
    Whis should similarly be capable.

  10. CH1C4N0444 is allergic to bullets September 27, 2015 at 8:13 pm -      #1110

    “Now that we know the specifics of the feat it’s impossible to calc.”

    I just wanted to see the calc’s reasoning and what not for myself, but it’s fine.
    =
    “All we can really go off is that Beerus can reduce the universe to a vacuum devoid of everything with 3-5 punches.”

    Which in DB is 4 Milky Way sized galaxies(not including Otherworld).

  11. Ninja Lowk September 27, 2015 at 8:52 pm -      #1111

    “To be fair, Bills still hasn’t planet busted using his body”

    I recall him destorying half a planet with a poke?

  12. hellboy147 September 27, 2015 at 9:02 pm -      #1112

    “I recall him destorying half a planet with a poke?”
    _
    static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11120/111201000/4668138-beerus+destroys+planet+with+a+poke.gif
    You mean this?^ Too much badassery in one gif

  13. hellboy147 September 27, 2015 at 9:08 pm -      #1113

    i.imgur.com/aFa62RS.gif
    _

    Crossed Thousands of light years under two minutes
    More badassery^^^^^

  14. CH1C4N0444 is allergic to bullets September 27, 2015 at 9:53 pm -      #1114

    “I recall him destorying half a planet with a poke?”

    Looks more like he sent ki through the planet than just simply a poke.
    =
    “Crossed Thousands of light years under two minutes”

    Which used Warp. The one he does after the planet poking is better.

  15. Ninja Lowk September 27, 2015 at 10:08 pm -      #1115

    “Looks more like he sent ki through the planet than just simply a poke.”

    They charged up ki to punch each other. They use ki for everything from defense to offense.

  16. Batz September 27, 2015 at 10:15 pm -      #1116

    So basically it doesn’t matter if Cell can bust the solar system or not, because Goku’s magnitudes above that now?

    Also if you haven’t seen this watch it right now.
    www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJ7ZgeKx8a8

  17. Numinous One September 27, 2015 at 10:18 pm -      #1117

    “Which in DB is 4 Milky Way sized galaxies(not including Otherworld).”

    Pretty sure that is a mistranslation from the Daizenshuu, because of this debate I’ve pretty much read the whole manga within a week or so and I can’t recall it being mentioned that there’s only four galaxies.
    IIRC King Kai was refered to as Lord/King of the Northen Galaxies somewhere.

    Here’s a quote from the Daizenshuu.
    “A gathering of local planets in the universe. Planets gather and form a nebula, and beyond that, a collection of gathered nebulae is called a galaxy. The four Kaiou who rule over the east, west, south, and north [sections] of the universe actually govern these galaxies. Because the Kami in the Heavenly Realm and the Kaiou supervise the galaxies that exist infinitely in all the universe, the sections known as the East, West, South, and North Galaxies are denominations that came into use through their duty.”

  18. hellboy147 September 27, 2015 at 10:31 pm -      #1118

    @Batz

    I nominate this for a BankGambling award.When turning into super Saiyan actually meant something lol

  19. Mea quidem sententia September 27, 2015 at 10:35 pm -      #1119

    @Ninja Lowk
    I don’t quite think so. Like I said, if I can break bricks with my hands, does that mean if a brick is thrown at me, I won’t be harmed

    @Soulerous
    It’s important to be precise on the words because we don’t need to be involved in equivocations or misunderstandings. Mass is not the same as matter. Matter is anything that has mass and takes up space, but that doesn’t mean mass and matter are the same. If Kitten Lord thinks this is a twisting of the word, then he needs to understand that it’s not. So perhaps we should involve ourselves in the words “material” and “immaterial”.

  20. Soulerous September 27, 2015 at 11:09 pm -      #1120

    If Kitten Lord thinks this is a twisting of the word, then he needs to understand that it’s not. So perhaps we should involve ourselves in the words “material” and “immaterial”.
    ~
    That’s what I’m attempting to aid his understanding in when I say ‘physical’ and explain that it has those different meanings. The same is true of Ptaine. Yours is a good suggestion, and a variation of what we’re doing.
    ~
    The statement that light is not physical may elicit from KL the response that light actually is physical, and that Aelfinn and the rest of us are wrong; or it may elicit a response that acknowledges the different meanings of the word, the way we’re using it, and why we’re doing so. The latter would be a much more intelligent response while the former would display ignorance. Unfortunately, it is exactly that type of ignorance that KL has employed repeatedly.

  21. Mea quidem sententia September 27, 2015 at 11:42 pm -      #1121

    @Soulerous
    I would avoid using “physical” and “non-physical”, as well as “mass” and “massless”. I think “immaterial” is clearer, since the other two words are meaningful. “Non-physical” can be understood as “indirect contact”, or it could be thought of as a credit or debit card where physical money is not present, but money can still be spent through these cards. Massless objects are still physical, in that they interact with the physical world.

    I know that telekinesis is thought to be supernatural, but a more precise word would be paranormal. It’s been a while since I’ve read this, but Richard Carrier has written a subject on defining “supernatural” and brings up “paranormal”.

    richardcarrier.blogspot.com/2007/01/defining-supernatural.html

    Both the supernatural and paranormal are regarded as unscientific in the scientific community, but when we observe an object being moved by something indirect, such as telekinesis, it is still interacting with the material world. Telekinesis has the word “kinesis”, which is of the same etymology for “kinetic”. So it’s just kinetic energy from a distance. Kinetic energy dissipates, at least when an object stops moving. The atoms are still in motion, but on a macroscopic scale, everything appears to have stopped moving.

    If we disregard the physics of telekinesis, then we should disregard any feats from it, since those feats rely on the use of physics. If we do not disregard physics, then telekinesis must be physical, or it must be massless, but it must definitely be material, even if we can only see the effects on an object without seeing what it is that’s causing these effects. Think of a laser, which cannot be seen, but the thing that’s burning is not only shining brightly, it’s also producing an odor.

    I suspect Kitten Lord prefers telekinesis to remain supernatural and to lack physics because it’s supernatural. That means it cannot be tested by physics. That is part of the reason why I’m annoyed with the idea of creatio ex nihilo, since an interaction between God and something would have been necessary for the Universe to exist from a Judeo-Christian point of view. But I digress.

  22. Ninja Lowk September 27, 2015 at 11:47 pm -      #1122

    “I don’t quite think so. Like I said, if I can break bricks with my hands, does that mean if a brick is thrown at me, I won’t be harmed”

    And I’d understand that but he was hit by a serious Beerus. It wasn’t just the whole fist colliding thing. The repeatedly hit each other.

  23. Mea quidem sententia September 28, 2015 at 12:00 am -      #1123

    @Ninja Lowk
    Was Beerus using this same force that he did when Goku punched his fists? After all, if Goku is supposed to be a 6 and Beerus is supposed to be a 10, and if Whis is supposed to be a 15 in terms of power, then Beerus was holding back when he could have easily destroyed Goku. This is the same kind of argument Kitten Lord has been using to prove that Kain’s durability is in the tera- or petapascal range. I really don’t know what range he assumes these days, but your argument here is the same as his in this regard.

  24. Soulerous September 28, 2015 at 12:32 am -      #1124

    The reason we’re using the words ‘physical’ and ‘supernatural’ is that KL has tried, very unsuccessfully of course, to use those words to prove the nature of telekinesis. We don’t really have a need for using ‘paranormal’ or ‘immaterial’ because our goal is to get KL to understand that the words he has already used do not support his explanation.
    ~
    If we disregard the physics of telekinesis, then we should disregard any feats from it, since those feats rely on the use of physics. If we do not disregard physics, then telekinesis must be physical, or it must be massless, but it must definitely be material, even if we can only see the effects on an object without seeing what it is that’s causing these effects.
    -I’ve previously explained to KL that telekinesis must necessarily be physical in the sense that it has to do with the laws of physics, because it is indeed moving objects. That meaning of the word ‘physical’ is therefore not a valid interpretation within the definitions of telekinesis that say “movement without physical means,” as that would cause them to contradict themselves. The definitions must necessarily mean “without material(physical) means.”
    ~
    That is part of the reason why I’m annoyed with the idea of creatio ex nihilo, since an interaction between God and something would have been necessary for the Universe to exist from a Judeo-Christian point of view.
    -I’m not sure what you mean.

  25. CH1C4N0444 is allergic to bullets September 28, 2015 at 2:30 am -      #1125

    “They charged up ki to punch each other.”

    It looked more like it was just their aura surrounding their body like what we’ve seen most power ups.
    =
    “They use ki for everything from defense to offense.”

    But there’s a very clear difference from a normal attack and one charged with ki like Beerus. Considering 99% of their physical attacks look nothing like what Beerus did in that scene, I wouldn’t say it was just a poke.
    =
    “Pretty sure that is a mistranslation from the Daizenshuu, because of this debate I’ve pretty much read the whole manga within a week or so and I can’t recall it being mentioned that there’s only four galaxies.”

    I’ve likewise never heard any mention of there being more than four galaxies though. I’m pretty sure we have seen the North Galaxy being referred to as the Milky Way Galaxy though, and we know there are four Kais.

    magikarp46.com/dragonball/guidebooks/images/07-036-a.gif

    “Here’s a quote from the Daizenshuu.”

    Here’s some more:

    “There is a ruling Kami for each galaxy. Earth resides in the Solar System, a galactic nebula on the outskirts of the North Galaxy.”

    “The Living World is also called the Present World. To be frank, it means the vast universe. This universe is divided into four galaxies; other than that, it is known that there is a chaotic place called the Devil Realm somewhere in the universe. The sections known as the East-West-North-South Galaxies only utilize Kami as administration units, and the lifeforms who reside in the Living World are able to freely travel the galaxies. Of course, that is supposing they have the technology…
    Incidentally, Earth, where SON Gokuu and his friends live, exists in the North Galaxy. The North Galaxy seems to have some of the most beautiful planets.”

    Self explanatory.

  26. Kitten Lord September 28, 2015 at 8:32 am -      #1126

    @Numin

    “Kinda seems like you’re forgetting your own arguments here.
    How good is Kain’s eyesight?”

    I never said he would do this while standing still. He could do any number of things. Freeze Buu in time just outside the Earths pull and then launch him with a full force TK push. This should get him going until he hits the sun.

    “Oh boy.
    Another upgrade for DB Godtiers.
    I’ll wait for it to be fully translated, but suffice to say even Kitten will have to acknowledge that Goku, Beerus and Whis will be able to straight up kill him with a single blow now, let alone a charged up attack.”

    Where? What upgrade?

    @Soul

    “but not in the bolded part. ”

    That is because she has already mentioned he can do this by sheer will alone. She does not have to mention will again if she already said “you can already do X”,

    ” Because of this, her words do not prove that the bolded ability works by sheer will alone.”

    Her words prove it because their connetted as part of the sentence. You can already do X at short range, now you can do X at long range. The only thing that changes is she is giving him the power to do it at range. Combined with the manuel on mind control, this adds up as I said.

    “In the same way, your interpretation of what “only his mind” means is not necessarily correct.”

    Explain. The mind being a abstract part of a beings thoughts, and this abstract thing is what Kain uses to cause change…the only thing that is two sources, both a character and the devs writings that give us the exception against physics.

    “False. Telekinesis using energy is a valid interpretation. That energy functioning within physics is possible, and it functioning without some physics but still with distance as a factor is possible as well.”

    Well we have found otherwise despite your cries. There is no energy that works thus within physics and the game supports the idea TK does not use energy, Kains does not anyway.

    “Physics states that distance is a factor, ”

    Physics and science have very little to nothing to say on Telekinesis and its range limit so you are just spouting hot air.

    “-Since it cannot be studied, at least not yet, you cannot say it is definitely out of physics”

    I could say the same about processes not requiring energy. Infact I could say the same about anything in fiction or otherwise at least until humanity have believably studied everything in the universe which will likely never be quantifiable.

    “What fact makes it clear that spiritual means cannot be spiritual energy? ”

    There is no such thing, it is specially non physical. And not in the immaterial sense.

    ” when it could easily mean “material.” Speaking of which, this still exists: ”

    No because it could not easily mean that, it is talking about a spiritual force, it is talking about a paranormal circumstance. And in legacy of Kain, we are clearly talking about magical beings, sticking your head in the sand and pretending the developers use TK to mean something scientific despite their universe literally shouting the opposite in your face is ignorance.

    “The initial positive claim is that Kain’s TK is not limited by distance. ”

    No, the initial positive claim is that Kain has Tk and TKs the DBZ folk. You then add the question of, “what range does it have”, to which I reply, prove it has range before you assert it as a relevant question. Otherwise I will ask what vampires has ki attacks destroyed!

    “I am arguing that your proof is inadequate”

    poorly, your basically just hand waving everything that is staring you in the face that supports my conclusion.

    “Rather than directly stating such a thing”

    Like “moving objects by will alone” or “mind alone”, that does not happen in physics.

    “. People usually mean something is made of matter when they talk about it being physical; why Kitten Lord thinks this is twisting the word is beyond me.”

    I do not know how you got the “people usually mean” from, but what is beyond me is how you cannot fathom why I think this is a twisting of the defintions used. The reason is because we are talking about a fictional, paranormal/supernatural universe that has a power that does not consist of kain smashing physical things together. So how you can assume the games use of TK is somehow physical, as in material rather than what most if not all the defintions imply which is unscientific/paranormal as Mea points out is beyond me….

    Well beyond…actually I am being sarcastic. I know why, it because you have spent too long trying to argue this and will not back down.

    @Aeflinn

    “he point is that because he applies Force in a way that our minds can comprehend, i”

    We can only comprehend it as far as Kain wills and the object is suddenly under force…because he wants it to be.

    “I’m talking about the shared assumptions between the creator and the consumer that are used to get points across.”

    Yeah your not making any sense. You have no idea about what shared assumptions are here. I could just as easily say creators have a shared assumption that when a fiction does something weird you should not just assume it was done according to physics.

    “Yes, and most universes do not allow their characters to TK across infinite distances.”

    I do not know, I do not recall any universes that outright state that their TK is limited. And those that do, maybe they do not TK infintiely, so what?

    “Except that this is a distinction you have conjured up despite the fact that we can physically see, with our eyes, that energy comes off of Kain and moves towards his target.”

    No, we do not see this. Ill ask you to do the same as I asked ptaine and he dodged it, screen capture the energy travelling from Kain to his target. And not just sparks on his hand, or a glowing effect. Because I can show you a comic scan that is a still image of Kain Tking someone and there is nothing between him and the target.

    “What? Noooo, it does not have mass”

    It has relativstic mass…

    “But it is NOT physical.”

    Depends. If you want to be a “oh theres tons of defintions” argument like Soul loves it is part of the universe, it is not however material.

    “it really shouldn’t be counted as 1000-foe. ”

    Course not, the only thing the scan shows is kais falling over. Just because they fell over for comic relief at how impressed they were of the power output does not mean anything.

    Did the solarsystem explode from their impact? oh no….ok…is earth untouched? no….ok..

    Are their tiny, human sized masses launched through space? no…ok..not that powerful..

    @Lowk

    “Earth survived because of backwards ass shock wave which I am pretty sure is operating on space magic… space Ki?”

    No the only thing that is space magic is that somehow people far away fall over when they see a lot of ki use.

    “Congrats DBZ fans. Goku is now as OP as old Superman”

    No, Goku is still far weaker. He is still a around supersonic entity with punches that have around the force of a large bomb. Maybe a MOAB to be generous.

    “There was no note of bullets flying off in the distance. ”

    Their frickin fast. What do you mean no note?

    ” There is no evidence to support you claim”

    Or evidence to support yours. I am playing the Soulerous game with you. You cannot prove X is impossible, you cannot prove bullets could not have flown off and the devs just did not concentrate on that because obviously gohan is the main attraction here.

    “Dragon Ball Super retconned events of the movie.”

    Not sure if anything is retconned, and I will not accept it until I actually see it retconned, as in canonically. I have watched DBZ super and we see them still flying around at about supersonic at best. My favorite scene being when Beerus takes seconds, maybe nearly a minute just to get from the clouds to a small island.

    “I wonder how much more is “or so”.”

    If your judging by USA vs UK then you only need to get 14 people to squak like baby chicks in a nest for their mother to give them a worm long enough. So essentially spam Admin with begs for a DBZ victory and he will give it to you to shut you up.

    Course, in that thread I did not email admin, yet I have this time, albiet a long time ago so despite knowing I have a ton of cases, super posts and evidence in this thread to counter my opposition he may have forgotten I am still arguing for it so he may still award it if enough chicks in the nest squawk.

    @Ptaine

    “The important part you should focus in on is that you said sound has an unlimited range ”

    Which it does, the vibrations are not unlimited but sound itself is a constant anywhere in the universe where such vibrations can take place and reach your ears. That is what I said.

    “Why? Why does your interpretation take precedence? ”

    Because it is actually valid. Saying “oh his hand moved so energy is connected them!” is not an interpretation, it is just nonsense.

    “hy do you get to decide that these things are only put there because the creators wanted to simply show that TK is happening?”

    Because the creators have already covered in the past how TK is only using the mind. Kain does not really need to move his hands, Kain does not really need to glow. He does not even need to create what you are calling lightning because he does not in Blood omen and he does not in the pre-release Defiance comic either (although his hand glows a bit in that).

    ” simply stated that this shows the possibility of energy transfer”

    No more than me saying I interpret someone yawning as an indication of unrestrained rage….

    “I’m not going to accept your proof as adequate for proving that the only possible interpretation here is that the mind is the only thing used in TK. And, where does ”

    I am not going to accept your gameplay mechanics. There is nowhere in Defiance where Kain says he uses TK energy. The only place you can find that is on the hud, or int he manuel describing the hud and its use for the player and its management.

    “it say that moving his hand is personal habit? Where is your proof of that beyond your opinion?””

    You remember that manuel? and that Seer? Blood omen 2 if you can recall that far back. It had a cool part that said only the mind and sheer will alone so…you know, not requiring hand movements if will alone is enough?

    “. But, the main thing is that you are wrong because you are using the same exact evidence that I am to interpret something, ”

    Your not using the same evidence. Your looking at the evidence and then stating something without using the actual evidence.

    ” they should both be limited by distance as well. ”

    If the sentence from the Seer did not continue on and say “now you can manipulate objects at great distances” then you would be right.

    “TK doesn’t use will because the Seer doesn’t say it does. ”

    Yes she does, she says you can already manipulate objects by sheer will alone, she then goes on to say that the only limit of this previous power is range, she then gives him the ability to do it at range, which makes it telekinesis. Comprehension of reading young ptaine…comprehension.

    @All

    So lets gauge this new feat properly;

    watchdbzsuper.com/dragon-ball-super-episode-12-subbed/

    A quick question, how strong is Gokus clothing? we know it can be smashed apart by blows, and we know that “super blows” that got more impressed words than feats concerning them if anything.

    We know that Goku is hit with the least force because the energy according to the dubbing get stronger the more they travel out, even the average folk on Earth were barely perturbed.

    So what force was Goku under? He did not travel that far after being hit, he is not that great a mass, and whats more, their in space.

    So can you calculate this Mea?

    information

    At 5:42 we can see their at best 5 miles away from each other. Quite clear, they can also be seen travelling at each-other at about 5:45 until 5:54, so about 10 seconds, lets make it 5 since some of the scenes seemed to be just showing both of them coming at eachother.

    They met in the middle, so they traveled 2.5 miles each. Both have a mass at around 90 kg at most, probably less but lets go with it. 90 kg travelling at 804.67200 m/s (2.5 miles in 5 seconds), so around Mach 2-3, about right since their in space and achieve around supersonic in atmosphere.

    Using my favorite caclulator;

    www.easycalculation.com/physics/classical-physics/force.php

    Gives us an output of force of around 72360 N.

    This adds up to the fact they were launched back only a few dozen meters or so from their blows. If it was that hard, especially being in space they should be launched at great speed..

    The result of course is that just because some kais claim the universe is going to be destroyed, as if we have not had tons of claims from characters in DBZ before that did not come to fruition nothing was damaged, certainly not at the point of impact and Ki has a weird way of propagation.

    Best part about this is people cannot cry about Beerus not being at 100% power, he even says he is at full power.

    Far cooler fight scene though honestly. Lets face it, BoG although actually useful for calcs unlike this one had them fight very much like most of the fights previously.

    How does this change this thread? none at all, they still take hours of fighting to even begin to use half their power or get pent up enough to use it, and their character falts remain. Kain still kills them with a gesture, gotta suck spending your life training and having so much potential power for no result. My super post on page 3 post #258

    postimg.org/image/u3goixrk5/

  27. Ninja Lowk September 28, 2015 at 9:58 am -      #1127

    “No the only thing that is space magic is that somehow people far away fall over when they see a lot of ki use.”

    It’s space magic in that it created a shockwave that got stronger the further it traveled. Shockwaves tend to do the opposite.
    ===
    “Their frickin fast. What do you mean no note?”

    Not bulket trail. No panned shot. No nothing.
    ===
    “Or evidence to support yours.”

    The scene showing him reaching out and catching bullets. Him showing the criminal said caught bullets. Plus a showing of his uncle is who is now weaker and slower thanks to the various boost everyone has gotten overtime.
    All visual bits of evidence that point to him catching bullets.
    ===
    “I am playing the Soulerous game with you.”

    Without actually giving any evidence to back you up.
    ===
     “You cannot prove X is impossible”

    I don’t have to. There is evidence countering your speculation and none to support it.
    You have yet add anything other then speculation like maybe. At least those guys where using quotes from canon material.
    ===
    “Not sure if anything is retconned,”

    The scene you used no longer happened.

  28. Ninja Lowk September 28, 2015 at 1:12 pm -      #1128

    youtu.be/fcPkXRgKvpg
    0:45-0:57
    Toriyama really likes himself a good ol fashion bullet catch scene he turn after the gun fired and still caught the bullets.

  29. Soulerous September 28, 2015 at 1:35 pm -      #1129

    Her words prove it because their connetted as part of the sentence.
    -Being connected does not prove it. The manner in which they’re connected would be what could prove it. It doesn’t. “You can frighten people already with your face alone, but only at close range. By crushing these beets, you will be granted the gift of Terror. You will be able to frighten people at a great distance.”
    ~
    The gift of “Terror” doesn’t necessarily use just the face, because although it could, it could also not. The two possibilities are 1) the face/will comment is being applied to only the first ability, and 2) the face/will is being applied to the second ability as well. English works in such a way that either meaning could be allowed by the phrasing, but that neither one is confirmed. What is confirmed is that the seer was talking about the first ability.
    ~
    The only thing that changes is she is giving him the power to do it at range.
    -That’s what I think. And yet you say that range is no longer a factor, even though it clearly was before. The seer says he can TK at a great distance, not any distance.
    ~
    Explain. The mind being a abstract part of a beings thoughts, and this abstract thing is what Kain uses to cause change.
    -If the mind is so abstract, why are you against the possibility of it having energy? It can move objects, which normally requires energy, which in turn proves that it has energy. If an acting agent can do something that absolutely requires a certain property, then obviously that something has that property. The fact that it’s fiction and fiction can do whatever it wants does not prove that the fiction actually has done anything about this. There’s no proof that it has, which means the requirement of energy to cause change proves that Kain’s mind has energy. Where is this said to not be the case?
    ~
    If you want to interpret “using only his mind” in it’s most literal way, that’s the answer: The mind has energy. And by the way, the canon itself says Kain uses force. He’s using not only his mind, but force in addition to his mind. So my conclusion that there is more to Kain’s mind than you think must be correct. His mind has something that allows it to exert force. And you, Kitten Lord, do not get to say “yeah, force but not energy” unless you have something that proves that.
    ~
    There is no energy that works thus within physics
    -As I’ve said before, a new type of energy does not break any laws of physics. Neither does a new type of ore, or a new plane of existence. You have yet to source any law of physics that is contradicted by TK, so don’t bother responding unless you can show that there actually is an impossibility instead of just saying there is.
    ~
    and the game supports the idea TK does not use energy, Kains does not anyway.
    -The game says Raziel can gather and throw balls of telekinetic energy, that each TK use expends some TK energy, calls one of Kain’s TK moves Kinetic Shackles, shows energy in the form of light when TK is used, and says it exerts force, which requires energy by default. These things all support telekinesis using energy. There isn’t anything that supports it not using energy.
    ~
    Physics and science have very little to nothing to say on Telekinesis and its range limit so you are just spouting hot air.
    -You can’t just say “physics and science have very little to nothing to say on Telekinesis” and expect that to mean something. At least attempt to prove that it’s true. You’re violating Rule 12. As per that rule, physics has everything to do with it.
    ~
    I could say the same about processes not requiring energy. Infact I could say the same about anything in fiction
    -Yes, which is what we do. It’s all in physics unless there’s a proven exception. It’s not that you could say it so much as that you must say it. So yeah, spiritual power doesn’t prove that an ability ignores range or other laws of physics. It is the nature of that spiritual power that is called into question there.
    ~
    There is no such thing, it is specially non physical. And not in the immaterial sense.
    -Your claim was: “When it states “spiritual means” their clearly talking about mystism rather than energy.” My question is: How do you know this?
    ~
    The reason is because we are talking about a fictional, paranormal/supernatural universe that has a power that does not consist of kain smashing physical things together. So how you can assume the games use of TK is somehow physical, as in material
    -I am not saying TK is material, you fruitcake. I’m saying it is physical in the sense that it has to do with the laws of physics, but is not physical in the sense of being material. Multiple definitions of telekinesis say it works without physical means, and this doesn’t automatically mean telekinesis is outside of physics altogether, because it could instead mean it doesn’t use material means. I’ve explained this over and over. How is it that you can still misunderstand?
    ~
    No because it could not easily mean that, it is talking about a spiritual force, it is talking about a paranormal circumstance. And in legacy of Kain, we are clearly talking about magical beings, sticking your head in the sand and pretending the developers use TK to mean something scientific despite their universe literally shouting the opposite in your face is ignorance.
    -It looks like you forgot to actually answer my points. Let’s try again:
    1) The definitions of telekinesis that say “without physical means” can easily mean “physical” in the material sense. This is true because “material” is a synonym for the word “physical,” or more specifically one of it’s meanings.
    2) This definition of telekinesis exists: “The production of motion in a body, apparently without the use of material force.”
    So my advice is to drop the definition argument completely, as it does not prove that telekinesis works outside of physics because that’s merely one unproven interpretation out of multiple ones.
    ~
    No, the initial positive claim is that Kain has Tk and TKs the DBZ folk.
    -Either way, the claim has to be proven to be possible. In saying Kain can TK the Dragon Ball characters at distances beyond his demonstrated feats, you are claiming that range is not a factor.
    ~
    to which I reply, prove it has range before you assert it as a relevant question.
    -TK either works in a way that ignores distance or in a way that doesn’t. If we don’t know that it ignores distance, Kain doesn’t get the feat. Your conclusion is one of those possibilities. Ptaine and I recognize that you have not invalidated the others. So tell us why the interpretations that we say are possible aren’t.

  30. Kitten Lord September 28, 2015 at 2:39 pm -      #1130

    @Soul

    ” English works in such a way that either meaning could be allowed by the phrasing, but that neither one is confirmed. What is confirmed is that the seer was talking about the first ability.”

    Your example is awful. You forget the fact she said “already” meaning, he can already manipulate objects with the exception of the range issue.

    To use your weird example it would be like saying “you can already scare people with your face alone but only at short distance, with this webcam you can scare people a great distance”

    “-That’s what I think. And yet you say that range is no longer a factor, even though it clearly was before. The seer says he can TK at a great distance, not any distance.”

    There is no differentiation between great or any. Any distance can also be great. The point is not the use of the word great but more so, the fact he can now do so at distance when he could not before.

    ” It can move objects, which normally requires energy, which in turn proves that it has energy.”

    No, your reaching does not suddenly mean the abstract becomes energy all of a sudden.

    ” If an acting agent can do something that absolutely requires a certain property, then obviously that something has that property. ”

    Your just making up nonsense because you do not like the clear exception. We have an exception to the rule 12, lets move on and actually debate the match now shall we…

    “There’s no proof that it has, which means the requirement of energy to cause change proves that Kain’s mind has energy.”

    Only, he uses his mind “alone” he uses his “by sheer will alone”, abstract things, not energy causing change. Even when the evidence is in your face you still want to twist things so desperate…

    Also prove nothing in the universe can happen without energy. And once you have traveled the universe, taken your evidence of every factor on both quantum and macro multiverse scales come back to me. I will be fascinated.

    “unless you have something that proves that.”

    What the quote you just provided that combined with mine literally states he causes forces on an object using only his will? That is obvious already Soul old boy, nothing new there. We know his targer objects are under force otherwise they would not move.

    “-As I’ve said before, a new type of energy does not break any laws of physics”

    Nor a new type of force that does not require energy…

    ” These things all support telekinesis using energy. There isn’t anything that supports it not using energy.”

    only none of those things are true. Their your interpretation. Raziel may use telekinetic energy but I am not sure about Kain or his powers, we know Raziel fires a moving bolt but Kain we know uses an abstract whim to cause change and literally, verbatum that is all he uses.

    So yes, that supports him not using energy since energy is more than abstract.


    ” You’re violating Rule 12. As per that rule, physics has everything to do with it.”

    The rule does not give science to things that do not genreally accept science. That is why we have “exceptions” as stated under the rule. TK by its very nature is an exception, and as the game outlines and shows, the power works unlike anything in science.

    “’m saying it is physical in the sense that it has to do with the laws of physics”

    Clearly not because it somehow defies physics by outputing forces through objects that it can later on nothing more than whim shatter. It functions purely by someones mind and whims….that is not science but fantasy. Oh look! what a coincidence…we are discussing a magical fantasy universe as well!

    “1) The definitions of telekinesis that say “without physical means” can easily mean “physical” in the material sense. This is true because “material” is a synonym for the word “physical,” or more specifically one of it’s meanings.”

    Is it? Is it easy? or is that just your claim? I think its easy to play silly buggers when words are concerned. It is not easy at all, it takes you a stretch to claim it must mean material when a fantasy universe is concerned when clearly nothing material is evident in the first place.

    “So my advice is to drop the definition argument completely, as it does not prove that telekinesis works outside of physics because that’s merely one unproven interpretation out of multiple ones.”

    It is not a definition argument until you thought you could make it one. by being as obtuse with your reasoning as possible. Only someone desperately trying to arbitrarily limit TK by distance and try and apply science to it would twist words to mean it is not paranormal.

    “Either way, the claim has to be proven to be possible. In saying Kain can TK the Dragon Ball characters at distances beyond his demonstrated feats, you are claiming that range is not a factor.”

    You or rather my opposition initially claimed it is, I am not even sure range has any relevance at all. Any more relevance than Kain being a vampire has to ki powers affecting him for instance. Or a full moon changing the use of ki….or w/e nonsense I can think of because I claim I interpret it thus.

    “So tell us why the interpretations that we say are possible aren’t.”

    Your interpretations if I can even call them that, more like bland claims since an interpretation implies you actually considered the evidence which clearly you did not because they are countered by the fact that Kain uses his mind and will alone. Not energy.

    Your interpretations are further invalidated by the series is clearly host to countless magical and paranormal powers. You cannot arbitrarily stick on something you believe like distance as a limit to TK just because it bothers you any more than I can say Kain being a vampire “could” make ki powers useless…just because, well we have yet to see them blast vampires or lets be more specific, Nosgothian vampires with ki before!

    I mean damn….that is my interpretation, who are you to say it is wrong? /sarcasm

    @Lowk

    “The scene you used no longer happened”

    Is this actually stated by Akira? seems to be he actually just made the movie and now this has come out which is like a different setting altogether. Are they the same or are they different universes that do not counter eachoter and co exist….

    I am not going to assume either way until its offical because I do not see the logic in a new anime retconning a movie that has covered the same material.

  31. Friendlysociopath September 28, 2015 at 3:07 pm -      #1131

    lets move on and actually debate the match now shall we…

    Certainly.
    Match starts, Kain’s opponent immediately disappears from his sight and punches him hard enough to destroy his body.
    Since Kain can’t regenerate from that in any sort of reasonable time frame, Kain loses.
    Done.

    If your argument is any version of the following:
    A) They stand around talking
    B) They need to charge up before doing any damage
    then my predetermined response is:
    A) So does Kain
    B) They do not, bog-standard attacks with no charge have shattered massive blocks of stone bigger than they are into pieces.

    If you’d like I’ll even animate it.

  32. Amm0vamp1r3 September 28, 2015 at 3:22 pm -      #1132

    Match starts, Kain’s opponent immediately disappears from his sight and punches him hard enough to destroy his body.

    Is yamcha really that powerful? I have not been keeping up with his power level after that unfortunate cybaman incident lol

  33. CH1C4N0444 is allergic to bullets September 28, 2015 at 3:50 pm -      #1133

    “If you’d like I’ll even animate it.”

    Do it anyways.

  34. Soulerous September 28, 2015 at 4:16 pm -      #1134

    You forget the fact she said “already” meaning, he can already manipulate objects with the exception of the range issue.
    -No, I do not forget that she said “already.” That’s why, in my example, I wrote “You can frighten people already with your face alone” in a parallel of “you can manipulate objects already by sheer will alone.”
    ~
    There is no differentiation between great or any.
    -You are aware that they mean different things, aren’t you? “Any distance” includes all distances. “A great distance” includes all distances equal to or lesser than the one that is being called great, which wasn’t defined anyway.
    ~
    Any distance can also be great.
    -Exactly. So you don’t get to say “ten-thousand lightyears is a great distance, so that’s how far the seer meant.” Because the seer could have meant forty feet instead.
    ~
    The point is not the use of the word great but more so, the fact he can now do so at distance when he could not before.
    -The first ability, which used will, had limited range. This second ability, which uses will, has a greater range. Distance never stopped being a factor, though. A great range does not equal any range.
    ~
    No, your reaching does not suddenly mean the abstract becomes energy all of a sudden.
    -I’m not reaching, I’m saying energy is needed to move things and Kain’s mind can move things, so his mind has energy. You can’t argue with that, which is why you’ve resorted to saying “no, you’re wrong, that doesn’t mean that.”
    ~
    Your just making up nonsense because you do not like the clear exception. We have an exception to the rule 12
    -There is no exception. Kain’s mind can have energy, because nothing says it can’t. Kain’s mind moves objects, which requires energy. So Kain’s mind has energy. Too bad.
    ~
    Only, he uses his mind “alone” he uses his “by sheer will alone”, abstract things, not energy causing change.
    -Kain uses his mind, yes. And since his mind has energy, he can use his mind alone, he can use only his mind to move things. Because his mind has energy. Legacy of Kain doesn’t say his mind has no energy, and neither does real life. But Legacy of Kain does say he can move things with his mind, which means it has energy because energy is required to move things.
    ~
    Also prove nothing in the universe can happen without energy.
    -“In physics, energy is the ability to do work, or the ability to move or elicit change in matter. In effect, the amount of energy something has refers to its capacity to cause things to happen.” (Source)
    ~
    “The universal mechanisms of creation are energy and matter transformation. Absolutely, energy is the basic element of the entire universe and all phenomenon involved in it. Energy is so vital to the existence of everything in the universe like water is vital to every life on earth. While water carries nutrients to every cell of a living organism to maintain it alive, energy carries particles that induce work to ay body or mechanism who needs to do work. THERE IS NO MOVEMENT OR WORK WITHOUT ENERGY.”
    -Origin of the Universe and Life on Earth, page 220.
    ~
    Nor a new type of force that does not require energy
    -Applying force without energy does contradict physics.
    ~
    TK by its very nature is an exception
    it somehow defies physics by outputing forces through objects that it can later on nothing more than whim shatter. It functions purely by someones mind and whims
    -It’s not an exception and it doesn’t cause force without energy. You haven’t proven that telekinesis doesn’t use energy. It does, because outputting force requires energy.
    ~
    It is not easy at all, it takes you a stretch to claim it must mean material when a fantasy universe is concerned when clearly nothing material is evident in the first place.
    -You make no sense. Let’s take this definition: “Telekinesis: The supposed ability to move objects at a distance by mental power or other nonphysical means.”
    Let’s enter these definitions:
    A) Physical: Of or relating to the body as opposed to the mind: Involving bodily contact or activity: tangible or concrete.
    B) Physical: Of or relating to physics or the operation of natural forces generally.
    Definitions taken from Oxford Dictionaries.
    ~
    Telekinesis: Nonphysical means are used to move the objects. Physical means are not used. Definition A of ‘physical’ may be the one meant, which would mean telekinesis has no material component.
    Definition B of ‘physical’ being used would mean that telekinesis is outside of physics altogether. But we don’t know that it’s used; perhaps A is used instead. So telekinesis is not necessarily outside of physics.
    ~
    It is not a definition argument until you thought you could make it one
    -It was a definition argument the moment you tried to use the definition of telekinesis to prove that physics do not apply to it.
    ~
    they are countered by the fact that Kain uses his mind and will alone.
    -That is the very thing we’re interpreting. Kain uses only his mind to move objects; your interpretation is that no energy is used. My interpretation is that Kain’s mind has energy because it’s doing something that takes energy. Your interpretation contradicts physics, but my interpretation preserves physics, so we must go with my interpretation. We’ll only go with yours if you prove it’s correct and that no other interpretations are valid.

  35. Soulerous September 28, 2015 at 4:23 pm -      #1135

    Is yamcha really that powerful? I have not been keeping up with his power level after that unfortunate cybaman incident lol
    ~
    Well, he did this very early in the series.

  36. Amm0vamp1r3 September 28, 2015 at 4:27 pm -      #1136

    Oooo getting hit like that would be a bad time for ol Kain, pretty sure it wouldn’t kill him but still

  37. Nsl98 September 28, 2015 at 4:41 pm -      #1137

    If you’d like I’ll even animate it.

    Please do

    When I first saw this match, I thought Kain would at least make it to Roshi…

  38. Mea quidem sententia September 28, 2015 at 5:15 pm -      #1138

    @Soulerous
    Motion without physical (direct) contact would be an accurate definition of telekinesis, however.

    Christians mostly believe God created the Universe out of nothing, but have a hard time understanding how atheists can think the Universe could literally come from nothing. The only difference between the theist and atheist is that theists believe God was there. William Lane Craig prefers using Aristotelian causality, but still does nothing to explain how God created something out of nothing, if literal nothingness cannot exist.

  39. Aelfinn September 28, 2015 at 5:52 pm -      #1139

    @Kitten Lord
    www.desy.de/user/projects/Physics/Relativity/SR/light_mass.html
    You have repeatedly demonstrated either a fundamental misunderstanding of arguments or the utter refusal to approach them objectively. From now on, I will simply ask you to just show me Kain using TK at 100 meters. We can talk about theories and ideas and abstractions until we’re blue in the face, but a claim can only be supported by conclusive, definitive evidence. So I ask you: show me Kain using TK at 100 meters.

  40. Mea quidem sententia September 28, 2015 at 6:20 pm -      #1140

    @Aelfinn
    This is what I also expect from Kitten Lord. I haven’t bothered with further discussion because of his failure.

  41. Soulerous September 28, 2015 at 7:57 pm -      #1141

    The only difference between the theist and atheist is that theists believe God was there.
    ~
    I see what you were getting at. I’ve thought about that too. Something cannot come from nothing, so something must have always existed in either model. Which is another mind-boggling principle, but I think it’s better than stuff popping out of literal nothingness.

  42. ptaine September 29, 2015 at 11:32 am -      #1142

    “Which it does, the vibrations are not unlimited but sound itself is a constant anywhere in the universe where such vibrations can take place and reach your ears. That is what I said.”
    .
    I know what you said, and what you said doesn’t prove that sound is not limited by distance. Sorry. Could you hear me when I called you a fucking dumbass just now? Of course you couldn’t because no matter how loud I speak, there is no way possible for the soundwaves of my voice to reach you from Florida to Britain.
    .
    You are arguing that because sound can be created anywhere there are particles to vibrate that sound is not limited by range. That is incorrect, and like I said that is a nonsequitur.
    .
    Seriously, if you do not concede this point I’m going to assume you are just trolling because there is no way you are this stupid.
    .
    “Because it is actually valid. Saying “oh his hand moved so energy is connected them!” is not an interpretation, it is just nonsense.”
    .
    Sorry, I thought you actually had proof beyond your own opinion.
    .
    “Kain does not really need to move his hands, Kain does not really need to glow.”
    .
    You have proof beyond your editorializations of the evidence? No? So you cannot claim that Kain doesn’t have to move his hands, or that they don’t need to glow, or that lightning doesn’t need to emit from his hand. Unless you provide me something that explicitly states that what you say is true.
    .
    Go back to the balefire argument and the fact that you wouldn’t accept anything beyond your own interpretation unless I explicitly provided you evidence that showed your argument was wrong. That’s what is happening here. I am not going to accept your explanation unless you provide explicit evidence that shows that I am wrong.
    .
    “There is nowhere in Defiance where Kain says he uses TK energy. The only place you can find that is on the hud, or int he manuel describing the hud and its use for the player and its management.”
    .
    One that doesn’t matter, and two you continually disregard the part where TK is defined in the manual. “Both Kain and Raziel use TK force
    .
    “You remember that manuel? and that Seer? Blood omen 2 if you can recall that far back. It had a cool part that said only the mind and sheer will alone so…you know, not requiring hand movements if will alone is enough?”
    .
    Oh right! I did forget about that!……../sarcasm. You must have forgotten the part where I provided evidence for an alternate interpretation using definitions, manuals, visual evidence, and common fucking sense. Oh, I know you don’t agree with it, but that’s because you are trolling since your favorite character is Kain.
    .
    “Your not using the same evidence. Your looking at the evidence and then stating something without using the actual evidence.”
    .
    Which is what you are doing. Looking at the same evidence and stating something that isn’t explicitly stated in the evidence. Unfortunately for you what you are stating doesn’t necessarily follow from the evidence because of your cherry-picking and fallacious reasoning. For instance:
    .
    “Yes she does, she says you can already manipulate objects by sheer will alone, she then goes on to say that the only limit of this previous power is range, she then gives him the ability to do it at range, which makes it telekinesis. Comprehension of reading young ptaine…comprehension.”
    .
    Indeed, so with that logic TK is limited by distance because what he could do before was. She simply expanded his range some unknown amount beyond what he could do before that doesn’t necessarily or automatically equate to distance not being a factor or as far as he can see. These are ideas you’ve interpreted from evidence that doesn’t explicitly state what you are saying is true.

  43. ptaine September 29, 2015 at 11:40 am -      #1143

    Least Plausible Hypothesis Choosing more unreasonable explanations for phenomena over more defensible ones. In judging the validity of hypotheses or conclusions from an observation, the scientific method relies upon the Principle of Parsimony, also known as Occam’s Razor, which states, all things being equal, the simplest explanation of a phenomenon that requires the fewest assumptions is the preferred explanation until it can be disproved.
    .
    Principle of Parsimony In contrast to popular opinion, at no point did Occam ever state that the simpler explanation is always more correct or that the more complex explanation is always less correct. The essence of the point, in its proper context, is to start from the simplest possible explanation and make it more complex only if, and when, absolutely necessary.
    […]
    It follows that if a premise or reason cannot be justified, and hence, a case for its necessity in the argument cannot be made – then the assumption is not only unfounded – but it may also be totally unnecessary!
    […]
    Occam’s razor is at its most useful when it is being used to choose from multiple competing theories – all of which have equal or comparable levels of explanatory power and generate similar predictions. It does not work in situations where the theories being compared are unequal in explanatory power or evidential support, are expressed at completely different levels of explicitness, and make diverse predictions.
    […]
    So, Occam’s razor is only concerned with situations where the competing theories are equivalent and where there is no evidence available at this time that could show which one was true.

    .
    The simplest possible explanation with the evidence we have is that Kain cannot TK beyond 10 meters because we have never seen him do so. Once we assume that he can do so we are entering the realm of speculation, and the rest of the evidence can be interpreted differently based on opposite assumptions:
    .
    Distance is a factor because nonphysical means without direct contact.
    Distance is not a factor because nonphysical means without physics.
    .
    TK uses only will/mind to function which means TK can ignore distance.
    TK uses energy to function which means TK is limited by distance.
    .
    The point being is that TK being a supernatural power that ignores physics is an unreasonable explanation and is not justifiable using the evidence we have, and the explanation with the least amount of assumptions that is more defensible adheres to rule 12 because there is nothing explicit stating or showing that TK functions in a way that allows it to be an exception to rule 12.

  44. Friendlysociopath September 29, 2015 at 12:42 pm -      #1144

    Is yamcha really that powerful?

    He’s got the feat Soul showed as well as two or three other examples of him punching stone.
    He takes a chunk of wall and punches it into the shape of a sword so he can use it.
    And while training he blasted a hole into stone bigger than he was and quite deep as well.

    And then he’s had the training to move on Kai’s planet until he could fight just as easily in 10x Earth’s gravity as he could in regular gravity.
    It’s possible Kain could defeat him, but I doubt it.

    Please do.

    Tempted a bit more when I remember his response to my hard work in writing that Godzilla vs Kain story.

  45. CH1C4N0444 is allergic to bullets September 29, 2015 at 3:47 pm -      #1145

    “Tempted a bit more when I remember his response to my hard work in writing that Godzilla vs Kain story.”

    i.ytimg.com/vi/loYr1_A5qU4/maxresdefault.jpg

  46. Soulerous September 29, 2015 at 4:42 pm -      #1146

    youtu.be/9G3O5gB7CUg?t=1h20s
    ~
    “It houses an ancient creature, whose very mind is capable of killing any living thing with but a thought. The Device was to channel the mental energy of this creature, and direct it onto Nosgoth.
    ~
    “It was dubbed “The Mass”. It is eternal and deadly, yet harmless without a channel for its mind. We never completed the weapon. We needed a way to send its energy out of the Device and into the land itself. We needed a conduit throughout the cities, a network, if you will. Once this network was created, the Device would channel the mental energy of the Mass, and send death upon our enemies.”
    ~
    So, mental energy is a thing in Legacy of Kain. And it travels.
    ~
    Huh. Who would’ve thought?

  47. Mea quidem sententia September 29, 2015 at 4:58 pm -      #1147

    @ptaine
    Your source says that at no point did William of Ockham ever state that a simpler explanation is always more correct or that a complex one is less correct. Then it says that the essence of the point is to start with the simplest possible explanation. Actually, that’s not correct, either. Rather, it’s a hypothesis that has the fewest assumptions is preferable to the one that requires many assumptions. Also . . .

    “The simplest possible explanation with the evidence we have is that Kain cannot TK beyond 10 meters because we have never seen him do so.”

    . . . this is an argument from ignorance.

  48. Friendlysociopath September 29, 2015 at 5:35 pm -      #1148

    . . . this is an argument from ignorance.

    The difference between that fallacy and best showing is literally the phrasing and nothing more.

    Ignorance Fallacy:
    Kain has never TK’d 100 meters, so he can’t do it.
    Best Proven Feat:
    Kain has never TK’d 100 meters, so we can’t assume he can do it.

    It’s hair-splitting and nothing more. Either wording has the same result of Kain not being able to TK at 100 meters without the feat of him doing so.

    Or are we not restricting him to his best feat anymore? In which case I bet Kain could probably TK the moon out of the sky if he tried.

  49. Soulerous September 29, 2015 at 5:40 pm -      #1149

    . . . this is an argument from ignorance.
    ~
    Not exactly. When a character doesn’t have a feat, we don’t say they canonically are incapable of something. That would be an argument from ignorance. Requiring things to be proven to be considered true is not the same. Unproven claims are effectively false, for all intents and purposes, but not confirmed to be false. I’m sure that’s what Ptaine meant.
    ~
    And I’ve been ninja’d.

  50. Mea quidem sententia September 29, 2015 at 6:15 pm -      #1150

    @Friendlysociopath
    Maybe we cannot assume that Kain can use TK at 100 meters, but we cannot assume that Kain cannot use TK at 100 meters. They’re essentially the same thing. Both are arguments from ignorance. Both can be tested. All that can be used in favor of the idea that Kain’s TK cannot travel 100 meters is that Kain’s TK uses kinetic energy, and we know that energy dissipates over distance.

    @Soulerous
    If you doubt that a character can perform a feat, that itself is not an argument from ignorance. That’s normal in scientific inquiry. It means that the proponent has the onus. In Kain’s case, we can test if his TK can travel at a distance of 100 meters or not. This could be settled if someone can test it.

  51. Soulerous September 29, 2015 at 10:55 pm -      #1151

    It means that the proponent has the onus. In Kain’s case, we can test if his TK can travel at a distance of 100 meters or not. This could be settled if someone can test it.
    ~
    We can’t test it. What are you implying? All we have is current canon. If canon doesn’t show that Kain can do it, then for the purpose of the debate, he cannot. Characters only get proven feats; they do not get feats that are unproven. That’s all that is being said here.

  52. Mea quidem sententia September 29, 2015 at 11:19 pm -      #1152

    @Soulerous
    It can be tested. What we observe in the game is what we get. At 5 seconds, you can see Kain at quite a distance from Moebius. Kain has already moved further, even though we don’t see this. Still, we know Kain has moved closer because the design of the floor tells us. We could guesstimate that this is at least 10 meters.

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_gSZlNqNQo

  53. Ninja Lowk September 29, 2015 at 11:32 pm -      #1153

    “Still, we know Kain has moved closer because the design of the floor tells us. We could guesstimate that this is at least 10 meters.”

    … Did this debate just come full circle? I could’ve sworn this was started with mostly everyone saying something like this.

  54. Friendlysociopath September 29, 2015 at 11:47 pm -      #1154

    … Did this debate just come full circle?

    We’re nearing 13 pages bro, we’ve gone full circle several times by now.

    What we observe in the game is what we get

    I don’t have the video because I frankly can’t be bothered to search LoK videos anymore- but his best distance feat is in that cave scene where he destroys the pillars.

  55. Soulerous September 30, 2015 at 12:48 am -      #1155

    It can be tested. What we observe in the game is what we get.
    ~
    That’s what you mean by test? That’s what we’ve been doing.
    ~
    Anyway, time for a summary in case I need one for Admin. Kitten Lord claimed Kain could TK the Dragon Ball characters at 100 meters and kill them.
    ~
    Kain has never TK’d at that distance, but KL argues that he can do so because distance is not a limiting factor for telekinesis because it doesn’t obey physics or use energy.
    ~
    We’ve asked him for proof of this, as it differs from how things ordinarily work.
    ~
    KL has argued that the definition of telekinesis proves it doesn’t obey physics, which is false because that is an unproven interpretation of some, but not all of, the definitions of telekinesis.
    ~
    KL has also argued that telekinesis using only the mind/will is proof that it doesn’t use energy. This is also false because it is an unproven interpretation that assumes the mind has no energy.
    ~
    My interpretation is that Kain can use only his mind for telekinesis while simultaneously respecting physics because his mind has/is energy.
    ~
    KL has claimed this is an invalid interpretation, but has not provided any facts that make it invalid. And now, in post #1146, I have proven that minds in the setting of Legacy of Kain do have energy, that this mental energy can be used for paranormal effects, and that it travels from the source to targets to affect them.
    ~
    My interpretation must therefore be used used in place of KL’s interpretation, because mine obeys Rule 12 while Kitten Lord’s does not.
    ~
    There is no proof that Kain can TK at ranges greater than what he has been shown to.

  56. ptaine September 30, 2015 at 9:43 am -      #1156

    @Mea “Your source says that at no point did William of Ockham ever state that a simpler explanation is always more correct or that a complex one is less correct. Then it says that the essence of the point is to start with the simplest possible explanation. Actually, that’s not correct, either. Rather, it’s a hypothesis that has the fewest assumptions is preferable to the one that requires many assumptions.”
    .
    I’m not entirely sure why you felt the need to tell me something that I already know, and that I quoted in both my sources…..
    .
    ““The simplest possible explanation with the evidence we have is that Kain cannot TK beyond 10 meters because we have never seen him do so.” . . . this is an argument from ignorance.”
    .
    Yet again, I know what an argument from ignorance is and this isn’t because of this from BankGambling debating rule 10: “Only the instances that can be proven regarding these No Limit elements will be considered for a final victory, while subsequent speculation on what the element in question may or may not be ultimately capable of may be ignored.” This is a base from which all feats at BankGambling start from, and I assume that everyone that posts at BankGambling has read the rules and understands what I mean when I say something cannot be done because we have never seen it done.
    .
    I do understand that you are quibbling with the verbiage though, so what I said doesn’t mean that he can’t do so in general, just that for the purposes of judging a victor for any BankGambling fight he can’t. So if you would like me to amend my statement to: We have never seen Kain TK beyond 10 meters so we cannot assume he can. That is what I meant, but as Friendly stated that means Kain can’t TK beyond what his best showing is……which is precisely what I stated.
    .
    An example: If all we see in the games is Kain TKing people I wouldn’t assume that Kain could TK an elephant, and for the purposes of the fight Kain wouldn’t be able to TK an elephant if that were indeed true. This is why I said that Kain not being able to do something beyond what he has been shown to do is the simplest possible explanation….

  57. Kitten Lord October 3, 2015 at 7:51 am -      #1157

    @Friendly

    “Match starts, Kain’s opponent immediately disappears from his sight and punches him hard enough to destroy his body.”

    Is that before or after they spend a long time charging up? or assessing their opponent? or before or after you realize character traits are in so half of the characters on here allow their opponent to hit them.

    Then consider, none of them are as fast as you claim and none of them hit hard enough to do more than break their own bodies on Kain. Also I like how your only feat for Yamcha is him breaking stone with another body and you think its impressive….

    It is little wonder why you cannot gauge a fight between these two characters at all.

    “Or are we not restricting him to his best feat anymore? In which case I bet Kain could probably TK the moon out of the sky if he tried.”

    See you do not understand Meas point. Because you do not understand logic and its rules in debate. You can “bet” kain could probably TK the moon out of the sky if you like, but you could not prove it, no more than you can prove Kain cannot TK beyond 10 meters or w/e.

    Its just like betting Cloud would use quad cast materia or Bahumaht summons in a VS debate, its useless without proving he would. But its not he same as what my opposition is doing.

    My opposition is assuming/asserting beforehand that distance, and the meters between Kain and his target suddenly stops him from using his will on a target, without proof or even logical reasoning.

    @Soul

    ” includes all distances equal to or lesser than the one that is being called great, which wasn’t defined anyway.”

    Which is why there is no difference in this discussion unless I was interested in something “less” than great. And why if it is undefined is as useless or as useful as “any”.

    “-Exactly. So you don’t get to say “ten-thousand lightyears is a great distance, so that’s how far the seer meant.” Because the seer could have meant forty feet instead.”

    I did not say that is what it meant. I said it could be ten thousand light years.

    “Distance never stopped being a factor, though”

    It never became a factor as far as your using it to limit Kain. Kain can now use objects at a distance through sheer will alone, that distance is not defined as a limit, simply that he can.

    “You can’t argue with that, ”

    I can argue with your claim that this is not a clear exception. Someone is using their mind alone, does not mean you can suddenly suggest this is still under science and not an exception.

    “There is no exception.”

    Damn, soul said there is no exception, its offical folks! hurdy hurdy! seriously though, I do not care if you do not think there is, if you want to ignore evidence as per the games outright saying something is happening without physics then you can continue ignorance.

    “. Kain’s mind can have energy, because nothing says it can’t.”

    What are you talking about? mind having energy….

    “Kain’s mind moves objects, which requires energy.”

    no, as the Seer says it only requires his whim. And as the manuel says, it only requires his mind. Now your adding factor physics does not even assume.

    “Applying force without energy does contradict physics”

    Like I said prove it. You have given me some scientific hypothesis from people who have not traveled beyond our planet more than likely. How can you simply accept what they say any more than my claims on LoK without evidence of this in the whole universe?

    “-It’s not an exception and it doesn’t cause force without energy. You haven’t proven that telekinesis doesn’t use energy. It does, because outputting force requires energy.”

    Well you slipped up again because you forget the gmaes tell us only thing required/used is his mind or his whim. Not energy. And you did not really reply to what I said here, just continued on with your unproven hypothesis.

    “Definition B of ‘physical’ being used would mean that telekinesis is outside of physics altogether. But we don’t know that it’s used; perhaps A is used instead. So telekinesis is not necessarily outside of physics.”

    This is when we look at the actual evidence. And realize no energy type works the way Kains powers do, no function of physics allows a being to move objects through sheer will alone, or using their mind alone.

    Is the universe a fiction where magic and supernatural forces exist period and consistently? yes, so on top of all this, why would assume it merely has no material component despite all the evidence that suggests even immaterial components such as energy do not work like we have here.

    “My interpretation is that Kain’s mind has energy because it’s doing something that takes energy.”

    This is not covered by the source material.. it says mind alone, another character says sheer will alone. I am not going to suddenly assume these abstract mediums are suddenly using energy, especially when no energy works like Kains powers do in the first place. That would be extremely obtuse, and such a line of thinking would suggest reaching of an almost comical scale wouldnt you agree Souly?

    “Huh. Who would’ve thought?”

    Its more, the mass has mental energy and the weapon their developing can make it travel across Nosgoth. But like Kain, the creature itself can can cause change with but a thought.

    @Aeflinn

    “So I ask you: show me Kain using TK at 100 meters.”

    Show me ki affecting vampires first and ill think about the relevance of your question.

    @Ptaine

    ” Sorry. Could you hear me when I called you a fucking dumbass just now? ”

    No, because vibrations cannot travel from you to me, but if you said it next to me, regardless of where we were in the universe (as long as vibratiosn could occur) we would get sound.

    “Unless you provide me something that explicitly states that what you say is true.”

    Which is when we look at the manuels that say as such.

    “I am not going to accept your explanation unless you provide explicit evidence that shows that I am wrong.”

    I honestly do not care what you accept. I have provided all the evidence for my conclusion that the DBZ lot get ripped to piecies via TK before they have any idea what is happening. We have seen what happens when a Z fighter is under TK;

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSEz4W782E8

    Panic, terror and finally death. And that is what we get here for each Z figher in turn.

    “One that doesn’t matter”

    Well it does because surely you have more evidence, preferably from the games lore than gameplay mechanics or manuel descriptions of them?

    ” Oh, I know you don’t agree with it, but that’s because you are trolling since your favorite character is Kain.”

    This is unproven, I disagreed because you made a lot of claims and then came to a non sequiter. You basically said these fruits are orange, so they must be apples….

    “Indeed, so with that logic TK is limited by distance because what he could do before was. ”

    No, because his ability before was not limited by distance, she did not say that. She said he could do it at close range, and this new power could be done at a distance. Note the only new exception is that he can now use his will at range.

    “The simplest possible explanation with the evidence we have is that Kain cannot TK beyond 10 meters because we have never seen him do so.”

    Mea called you out on this but ill do so to, this is an argument from ignorance plain and simple. “I have never seen Superman kill a kitten, therefore we cannot say he can kill a kitten!”, “Ki powers in DBZ have never damaged a Nosgoth vampire, so therefore, they cannot!”,

    Better logic would be, we cannot assume they can damage vampires, we cannot assume he can destroy kittens. This is if we had no evidence for either of those tihngs of course. I know myself that Superman can kill kittens if he wanted, and I know Kain can TK, therefore he can TK his foes.

    we have evidence for both of those things.

    “, just that for the purposes of judging a victor for any BankGambling fight he can’t. ”

    No, because the BankGambling rule does not allow you to add elements to TK, like distance range. No rule does that. If soul wants to invent another rule that says all feats are literally as shown then so be it, but then we will no longer assume superman can crush kittens unless we know it for a fact will we? or that ki powers can harm vampires etc.

    If everything brought up regardless of how irrelevent can be used to suggest something is being fallaciously claimed beyond a limit then I can have a lot of fun with that. Including asking for what each power ahs targeted, what range, what time of day etc.

    “The point being is that TK being a supernatural power that ignores physics is an unreasonable explanation and is not justifiable using the evidence we have”

    No, this is just nonsense typical of you. Your basically suggesting its unreasonable to explain TK from a non physical, supernatural standpoint in a fantasy, supernatural universe that consits of vampires and sorcerors throwing maigc at eachother and immortal beings?

    Get off your high horse so you can actually see the evidence and stop floundering. I can only help you actually debate properly if you stop and listen.

  58. Kitten Lord October 3, 2015 at 8:03 am -      #1158

    Missed this one

    @Soul

    “Kain has never TK’d at that distance, but KL argues that he can do so because distance is not a limiting factor for telekinesis because it doesn’t obey physics or use energy.”

    Rather, KL opposition argues that distance or travel is automatically a limiting factor without proving it is for TK.

    “This is also false because it is an unproven interpretation that assumes the mind has no energy.”

    Because the mind and will is abstract, and energy actually exsits in physics proves this absurd and unproven idea even in physics is just that, absurd.

    “I have proven that minds in the setting of Legacy of Kain do have energy, that this mental energy can be used for paranormal effects, and that it travels from the source to targets to affect them.”

    This is a lie, you have proven that the mass, when used in conjunction with a wepaon, which used a network of mechnical devices that circulated energy, e.g. Glyph energy traveled and projected mental energy.

    “My interpretation must therefore be used used in place of KL’s interpretation, because mine obeys Rule 12 while Kitten Lord’s does not.”

    Again, rule 12 does not force things on fictions like your doing. It merely assumes physics before exceptions occur, in this case we have many exceptions as i have outlined above in my respones to you.

    Abstract forces causing change being most obvious, powers that do not act like energy and finally, no proof from you that TK, regardless of interpretation has to travel at all.

    “There is no proof that Kain can TK at ranges greater than what he has been shown to.”

    Or indeed, range is a valid statistic.

    As always, in case Admin wants to actually see a true outline of this thread rather than countless interpretations of what defintions mean, and pages of nonsense that do not even change the end result of this thread, I will re-post my super post below since it is many pages back;

    Ok incoming super post!

    Kain resources

    Ill be citing evidence from the respect thread;

    www.factpiletopia.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=45106

    To find what I am citing, go to the “number” in brackets next to what I am claiming and look down the list below with the equivalent number. Then copy the sentence, word etc. Then navigate to the respect thread, hold down the ctrl key as well as the F letter on your keyboard to open up the “find words” tab at the top right of your screen. “paste” the phrase into the bar and click the up and down arrows on the bar until you find my phrase and read and be enlightened!

    contents of evidence for Kain

    1 – TK or in laments terms moving objects at a distance with your mind

    2 – Here Kain makes tons of rock, a whole thick clolmun/stalagtite/stalagmite tremble and easily smashes it

    3 – Physical Capability

    4 – The following are calcs on pressure;

    5 – Elder God clearly points out that this is effortless for Raziel,

    6 – to feed on the souls of any creature it strikes.

    7 – Incapacitate

    8 – Control mind

    9 – You have seen possibly Kains strongest teleportation already

    10 – The Dimention emblem is pretty powerful,

    11 – Vampiric regeneration

    12 – Gained from? Marcus

    13 – Phasing

    14 – Mist form and intangability

    The fight, from Beerus to Yamcha

    Ill be going backwards from Beerus. This should mean I cover the higher end Z fighters which should make the argument clearer why he can beat previous ones. I do not agree with power scaling, not to this degree so I will post the battle that shows Beerus making short work of the Z fights;

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1lQP9KQdng

    He effortlessly takes out most of the Z fighters, including Buu, Gotenks, Vegito, Gotenks, Piccolo , Tien, Android and Yamcha.

    They can barely land a hit on him, and at one point he even uses chopsticks off the table to control their force.

    Here is Goku as well even under SS3 power;

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=if_ha_4UDx4&t=6m42s

    6:42

    We know for a fact SS3 Goku can handle at least in the realms of speed more or less everyone in this thread at one point or another. yet Beerus makes he look like nothing.
    Beerus

    Ok the strongest contestant in the gauntlet. As proven above Beerus is physically faster and stronger than the others above. So how fast is Beerus?

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9GuPmVENxQ&t=6m51s

    6:52

    This is the best way to determine his speed when actually trying. He is angry at Goku for holding back, and decides to push himself further which is clear in his statement “alright fine! see how you do at this speed! so he has not gone this fast yet…

    Ok, but how fast is that? see the raindrops? their the perfect scale for finding the speed! Mea did this calculation;

    “I ignored using 14 seconds in the calculation this time around because the slow motion would be our reference for the time. If a drop of water travels 8 m/s (its terminal velocity), then the approximate height is all we need to work with, since 14 seconds would be equal to 213 milliseconds.”

    “It’d be more reasonable for Goku and Beerus to be traveling 94.02 m/s (210.31 mi/h). It’s irrelevant if the time was 17 seconds, 15 seconds, or 14 seconds. They’re all going to be equal to 213 milliseconds regardless, since this is the amount of time an object traveling 8 m/s at a height of 1.7018 m. has. Taking the distance and dividing it by the time will give us the speed, which as you can see, I’ve presented. It’s not inflated.”

    Without any assumptions or required conjecture we can find Beerus’ speed to be 92 m/s

    in combat. But lets go back and check the scene again;

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9GuPmVENxQ&t=6m51s

    At 7:03 he starts running towards his opponent, he does not go at full speed until in melee. this battle in this thread the characters are 100 meters apart

    So lets calculate how fast he runs normally before expending energy. We can quite clearly see there is at least 20 meters between the pair, probably less but lets go with that. It takes Beerus from 7:03 to 7:06 to cross about half that? lets high to 15 meters, that means Beerus is moving 5 m/s, about half the speed of Usain bolt when he sprints.

    This is Beerus during his hardest battle yet in the movie, and actually trying. So any argument that suggests “oh Beerus was not trying” is false, since his language clearly says otherwise. This proves Beerus has CIS for running at his opponent

    We can see him running again here;

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9GuPmVENxQ&t=5m2s

    Even though he was seen flying about seconds prior, he decides that when he is going in for a blow he lands and runs to his opponent, this makes sense because he does not want to burn energy flying into his opponent when hes going to strike hard.

    So running at 5 m/s, over 100 meters towards Kain, gives us Beerus taking 20 seconds before he gets into striking range
    so in this major fight, what do we have so far?

    We have Kain not doing any actions for some reason, Ill fix that in a moment but we have Beerus speed at 5 m/s running, 92 m/s in combat and we have 20 seconds for Beerus to reach Kain

    So what can Kain do in 20 seconds?

    Telekinesis (reference 1)

    After looking that up your thinking, well surely Kain in 20 seconds could just hit the cat with his TK right? a wave of his hand would take him a fraction of a second?

    Sure he could. I am sure your also thinking, with 100 tons and over of force, he could crush the cat (reference 2) , well yes but why crush him when you can TK blood?

    vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/legacyofkain/images/c/cd/Defiance21GameStop.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20110617011537

    vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/legacyofkain/images/3/31/Defiance22GameStop.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20110617011553

    When does Kain use TK?, we have shown how Beerus starts a ranged fight but how about Kain?

    First as seen above he uses TK to drain blood from a distance, not even a very long distance.

    Here are other showings of him using TK;

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=L62SDl2D8tY&t=5m23s

    5:23

    TKs a guard into a spike.

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=L62SDl2D8tY&t=52m39s

    52:39

    The most obvious one. He TK’s not only Moebius about, causes him pain etc but even has the finesse to disarm weapons.

    You can check through if you like but you will not find another battle in that scene where Kain is at range and decides not to use TK. Infact, watching the whole walkthrough of defiance, there are countless times where Kain has to use TK to progress, including lighting sconses, manipulating mechanisms and smashing objects , he uses TK like a third arm that can grab objects at a distance with his mind.

    Conclusion

    As proven above. beerus starts the fight running towards Kain meanwhile Kain gestures with his hand, using TK the result? Beerus has the blood throughout his body, in his heart, his veins etc spraying about his organs with potentially up to 100 tons of force or more.

    Organs burst, fail, oxygen? null, movement? he collapes. We have the Lord Beerus bloody on the ground….

    theorycrafting

    Some may ask, what if Kain takes a nap mid fight and allows Beerus to close into melee range? Could Beerus hurt Kain with his blows?

    The answer is no, not really

    We can find the pressure of an impact by observing force divided by area. To find force you need mass x acceleration;

    Well we have acceleration at 92 m/s , and we can estimate mass of a human being, a skinny one like Beerus would be at around 60kg, probably a bit high but lets go with it.

    60 x 92 gives us 5520 newtons of force. Now let us find area of a punch;

    “If the surface can be found by comparing it to a rectangle, and if I say the height is 2 in. and the length is 3 in., then I’d end up with 6 in^2. Of course, let me try measuring my fist again, since the other was a rough estimate. As far as length goes, 3 in. Height was only 2.5625 in. Multiply the two and you get 7.6875 in^2. That’s my fist, of course”

    This is a quote from Mea again. he measures his own fist, so lets go with that estimate. area is in meters square to find our pressure so lets convert from 7.6875 inches square to meters square;

    5520 / 0.0049596675 = 1.1 MPa, or mega-pascals.

    What is Kains resistance to pressure?

    Observe reference 3 for how we calculated the force of Raziels strikes and then take a look at reference 4 and 5 for the exact pressure calculations on what Kain tanks as blows.

    Kain can take pressures of around 148 TPa, or Terapascal without any scratch on his body, this is 100 million times too much for Beerus. Who would have to strike millions of times harder to potentially do Zero damage

    this is just on his epidermis or outer skin layer. Kain is not scratched by this, so the massive force required to even break Kains skin, and even more to deal major damage to kain is simply not there in Beerus’ typical talents.
    In closing Kain wins, his superior powers and his fighting style unique to DBZ characters to use magic or supernatural powers makes him a nightmare for a martial artist to fight.

    Does that not make the fight a stomp in Kains favor?

    No, that would be unfair. Beerus could actually potentially destroy Kain by dumping a ton of ki energy into him;

    static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11116/111167221/4668240-2168294961-134.g.gif

    Does Beerus do this to his opponents? no, does Beerus start off using high amounts of ki energy? no its not in his character however I do not presume that Beerus or any character is stupid, if he gets punches on Kain and finds out hes hurting himself a lot, possibly breaking his knuckles or w/e trying to hurt Kain…. he would resort to ki..

    would Kain let his happen? typical no, but if you have read BankGambling rules, an award is found after a character takes a majority out of 100 battles.

    As our dear Friendlysociopath pointed out earlier. Kain does not “always” use TK, he just often does in this sort of situation, but out of 100 fights? sure he would win a vast majority just by using TK, maybe some more by using hax magic but what about the times he uses say, lightning? Maybe Beerus could survive it or reflect it.

    What if Beerus, in the time Kain does this gets a few hits on Kain, and then decides to dump ki?

    Beerus can potentially win a few battles out of 100, so it is not a clear stomp, just a clear win by majority.
    Kain vs Goku

    Goku is physically just as vulnerable to the same things as Beerus. He has lbood, he bleeds but with a further weakness;

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADkZB6xUNGU&t=6m33s

    He takes time to charge up, unlike Beerus who does not have “forms” as far as we know.

    He powers up from 6:32 until he is in his SS beyond God form at 6:50, so again 20 seconds, roughly?

    Your probably thinking this is deja vu from the Beerus fight above. Kain now has 20 seconds or so from the beginning to wave his hand and do something horrible…..

    Now here is the other big weakness of Gokus character;

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADkZB6xUNGU&t=7m22s

    7:22

    villains.wikia.com/wiki/Frieza

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=ntMfV3AsVkQ&t=125m25s

    2:5:25

    “Against the wishes of Kaio, Goku let Frieza reach his maximum so he would be sure that Frieza was beaten at his best and would never come back to haunt them.
    This proved to be a big mistake, as Frieza regained his advantage over Goku. ”

    He has this desire to fight opponents at their best to see what they are made of. Even though Frieza is destroying the planet, has beaten the crap out of and killed his friends and he still gives him too many chances.

    Kain in this case does not need his TK even though he is still likely to use it, One blow from the Soul reaver should devour his soul, killing him (reference 6) or one of his spells such as time stop incapacitate (reference 7) would leave him completely open.

    Kain may even mind control him. (reference 8) Kains “opportunity” for killing or incapacitating Goku are many. this is regardless of Gokus actual power but more his character

    This is why he is lower on the list than Beerus, not just his power but his character is too noble even to those he wants to destroy.

    Also;

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9GuPmVENxQ&t=14m21s

    14:21 He cannot beat Beerus. He was slower than Beerus, sometimes barely keeping up. Look how exhausted he is. Despite Goku having a character that says “never give up” he does Beerus, he is outmatched.

    Conlclusion

    Goku begins the fight by charging up his power AND/OR testing Kains power by allowing him to attack. Regardless of whether Goku goes for it or tests Kain can, do the same to him as he does to Beerus. Only with more ease and with even more options.

    So while Goku is charging up, or running at him like Beerus, he dies to TK again OR a number of hax.

    Kain wins

    Kain vs Vegeta

    Honestly, Vegeta has the same powers if not at a lesser degree than Goku. His only difference is his character.

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYXwXNDIml4&t=1m35s

    1:35 He is angrier, maybe a bit more hostile. However;
    www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLrN816m0wI

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYXwXNDIml4&t=2m45s

    2:45 Has the same weakness. Drawing his power….its fine if your opponent lets you do it, but Kain has no reason to do so.

    3:34 in the same video. He shows his hubris.He slowly walks towards his opponent, thinking himself invincible.

    Your probably thinking, “if he does this to Kain, hes dead?”, well yeah, course he is. Because Kain does not hang around doing nothing while people are coming to try and kill him, especially when he wants to kill someone.

    Conlclusion

    Problem with DBZ is a lot of their fights are the same, few of them have unique attributes and in this case, Vegita swaps Goku’s hunger for a good fight in his CIS to hubris.

    This means even if Kain again, does not tear his insides with TK he still has so much time to consider other things. He is no more stronger than Beerus or Goku.

    Piccolo

    So we observed above that Piccolo is no match for Beerus, and we know that he is not much of a player in the major battles later in the saga anyway. So even SS3 Goku is way beyond him, hell maybe SS2 Goku?

    Anyway, he has similiar weaknesses;

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOLFX_VVFGI&t=0m26s

    26 seconds in, the old charge up weakness.

    Once charge,d he has to then somehow move that energy into his blasts, which is at least a change so far since I am tired of the constant melee attempts at Kain. Now someone is trying to fire ki at him.

    This starts at 2:22 in the same video. Yet takes again a damn long time….yep, I know what your thinking Kain, once again given too much time to crush him

    Now lets for giggles assume Kain lets that go off, and it his him. It clears out some buildings, trees, makes furrows in the earth but nothing there has anywhere near the hardness that Kains body has, and its a massive area blast. Remember earlier when even with Beerus; power focused in his fist only did a few mega pascals?

    That would increase if he used a smaller area, decrease the pressure on a bigger one. Piccolo is essentially wasting his energy, because its jsut expanded uselessly either side of Kain.

    But you may ask, Kain could just teleport right?, yes easily (reference 9, 10 ) , with about a gesture or less he can do one teleport or many. So Piccolo has just expended a huge amount of energy, only to find out Kain is behind him.

    Piccolo looks down to see the reaver in his chest…..

    Another issue, initiative;

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjEcGSZr-zo&t=0m8s

    8 seconds in, he is standing helpless while his foe charges up a counter attack. He is terrified.

    doesnt piccolo have regeneration?

    Yes he does;

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjEcGSZr-zo&t=3m47s

    It is limited heavily. He admits at 3:47 that he needed to keep Cell talking while he brought to bare enough energy to replace his arm. It takes a second or more as well to regenerate.

    Compare this to kains vampiric regeneration (reference 11)

    Even fledling vampires, you know the young who are about as weak to Kain as Krillin is to Beerus but as you can see in those vids. Even Raziel despite the vast forces and pressures he works with admits he has trouble keeping their regen down. Then consider they are soft relative to Kain. Raziel can use human made metal spears off the walls to pierce through, and has no trouble making damage anyway, just keeping it up.

    So Kains regen makes Piccolos looks sluggish and is natural, takes no effort from the vampire.

    But that is not all Kains Reaver gives you a huge regen boost

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBGCQoE0nsU&t=244m12s

    4 hours, 4 mins and 12 seconds in, Raziel has finished battling two Sarafan soldiers, his former brothers when they were human. He notes how despite taking strikes from men wielding blades, Raziel who has no regen at all (he actually deteriorates over time) was boosted to invulnerability.

    so consider that Raziel went from deterioration to regen to the point of invincibility, Kain would go from near invincibility with natural regen to….true invincibility? to the Z fighters….yes

    Anyway, point being Kains regen makes Piccolos look slow. Which it is.

    Conclusion

    Beside show much weaker he is to them, the only difference between Piccolo vs Kain and the other fights Kain has so far won is that Piccolo “may” start, out of 100 battles with charging his beam blast rather than going into melee.

    This merely changes Kains victory between him killing Piccolo with TK while hes charging his power, charging his weapon or trying to get across 100 meters in time to melee.

    Kid Buu

    So this the fight I find most interesting. Not because Kid Buu is anything to compare to Beerus in speed and strength, lets face it SS3 Goku who is nothing to Beerus could match Kid Buu. Based on that Kain should have no issue with Buu’s speed but lets look at how he starts fights;

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=aH7jWR9Ah1U

    Ok….see here we have an other weakness based on CIS. Piccolo has initiative issues, Vegita has hubris, Goku has fair play and the wish for a fulfilling fight, Nappai s an idiot etc but Kid Buu? the mind of a child.

    He starts this scene beating his chest for minutes at a time….

    But that is not all;

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=aH7jWR9Ah1U&t=2m50s

    Even when attacked he continues to do it. Like literally with Gokus leg in his face and getting kicked in the head. Thing is, Buu wont get a choice to come back serious because Kain does not punch and kick, he uses a soul devouring sword and hax magic. He would splatter Buu with Tk and/or reave him with the blade. One of the two.

    So;

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=aH7jWR9Ah1U&t=4m33s

    This is Buu when he is a bit more focused. Lets assume whatever Kain does, its not a soul destroying attack nor an incapciate or w/e. If we assume Kain does the same power hes been doing to the others, TK and splatters Buu, then Buu comes back with regen this shows us that at 4:33 he goes into melee.

    Like most Z fights. however Buu does liven things up a bit and does more ki blasts, lots of little weak ones;

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=aH7jWR9Ah1U&t=5m19s

    Mid fight, even at close range he may swing with a couple of punches then start launching ki blasts. Thing is, their really weak. At 5:19 we can see tons of them going off like small bombs, making minor craters in the grass.

    kain tanks ridiculous force and pressure, so this would do nothing to him (Ref 3) Buu could be expending Ki over periods of time, seconds or minutes wasting his energy. Meanwhile Kain has a long list of hax, mostly soul and time related powers to end this.

    Buu also has no mind resistance while Kain has both a magic (ref 8) and mental (ref 12) mind control.

    Conclusion

    Buu relies on his regen. But Kain has regen just about as fast and uses attacks that destroy not the body, but the soul, the mind etc.

    This is the hardest fight in the match for Kain based purely on the fact he cannot just TK Buu to death, this gives Buu time to “potentially” get some wins out of 100 fights by just busting the planet if Kain does not put him down.

    Essentially though your pitting the mind of a child to the mind of a genius.

    Mystic Gohan

    So this is a boring one. Hes beaten Goku, Beerus, Buu….I do not see why he would have any extra issue with Gohan;

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlezAx74bPQ&t=2m39s

    Gohan at 2:39 walks slowly up to his enemy. His CIS seems to be overconfidence, not quite as arrogent as Vegita, but confidence to the point of foolishness.

    And then you guessed it;

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlezAx74bPQ&t=5m1s

    Our typical DBZ fan favorite yellling contest to charge up. Gohan does not charge that much luckily, only a second or so.

    lets calc his punching force

    At 5:10 he punches Super Buu. Who appears to be at least 10 feet tall, lets high ball his weight a bit to about 150 kg . If you recall the calc for finding force is mass x acceleration. So Buu travels at most a couple of meters.

    150 x 2 = 300 newtons. nothing to Kain, so Gohan cannot damage Kain with melee.

    Not sure what else to say really, hes just a weaker Goku.

    Conclusion

    Kain kills him just like he does his father and Beerus.

    Perfect Cell

    Ok let us check the CIS;

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=kK-RTpiJIXw

    More hubris, if anything he reminds me of Vegita which is ironically this fight. Standing around waiting for people to hit him.

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3qThJ_9090&t=5m17s

    Cells hurbris pushes him to even create a tournament arena so he can fight everyone…

    Where SS2 Goku can keep up with him without too much issue.

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3qThJ_9090&t=26m12s

    This could be interesting, he can multiply. But the copies seem pretty rubbish, they last a few minutes until Goku knocks them down again but Kain would have an easier time;

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cf1RMfS0xvk&t=5m5s

    Thanks to the dimension emblem hitting one foe mirrors the attack on at least a couple of enemies in the vicinity.

    Cell has regen

    Thanks to absorbing Piccolo’s power he gains regen which as shown is not exactly as good a vampires but decent all the same. So how would Kain deal with this? well apparently by destroying the head;

    dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Cell

    “In the manga, Japanese dub of the original anime, and both versions of Dragon Ball Kai, Cell explains that, like Piccolo, he has a regenerative nucleus in his head; as long as that survives, so does he”

    If we go by the manga. If we go by the anime I recall he gets his head blown off and still comes back.

    If this is the case, mind rape, time rape and maybe even soul rape if it works.

    Conclusion

    Cell is basically a weaker version of Buu, with regen and what not but clearly slower and weaker since he can get matched/worn down by SS2 Goku. While Buu took the power up form to truly face down.

    All in all kain wins the same way he does vs Buu, even if somehow he is immune to soul rape he can be frozen in time (incapacitated), smashed to pieces via TK, burned via immolate. He is likely about as hard as a vampire to keep dead thanks to a combo of regen and near invulnerability.

    Krillin, Nappa, Roshi, Yamcha

    Ill cover these all at once since their all weak compared to previous fights Kain has won, they are slower, helpless to higher tier DBZ threats and unless I am mistaken have no special powers.

    krillin uses Destructo disc but;

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-KmDPK8XYk&t=13m28s

    It takes time to charge, well doesn’t everything in DBZ? oh well…..so what does it do if it even gets the chance to fly?

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-KmDPK8XYk&t=5m40s

    Slow as hell unfortunately….

    Nappa is an idiot

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=PwpiK6L98lA&t=3m25s

    After allowing Goku, you know the guy hes supposed to kill stand around chatting/healing his friends for a few minutes he finally stands there and just faces him, waiting for an attack, goku tells basically pushes him into action at last;

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=PwpiK6L98lA&t=8m7s

    He is typically horribly slow, they must be what? 10 meters away tops? From 8 mins 17 seconds he starts running. He does not even reach Goku until 8: 25…….

    That makes his running speed at less than 2 m/s…so hes about a third the speed of a regular person of normal fitness. Which kind of makes sense since hes just had a lot of combat, and hes huge….so moving his mass must be harder for him.

    Frankly I cannot be bothered to go over Roshi and Yamcha, since Kain has gotten this far without too much issue, these two should be a cakewalk.

    Extra information on Kain

    Kain can phase (Ref 13) allowing him to avoid damage altogether. He can do something similiar with mist form (Ref 14) the phasing thing seems to be passive while the mist form is “on a whim”, he can go in and out of that pretty quick. This means even if they can get into close combat Kain “can” mist dodge or if not fast enough his body seems to avoid damage by itself.

    Kain is very intelligent

    Kain is a calculating being who uses what he needs for victory, he is not set in CIS stone like some characters. This can be shown in BO 2;

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8J6zp8xHsc&t=1m30s

    At 1:30, watching this fight you can see him use everything he needs. TK for when he is at range, sword blows in close combat, immolate when he has no sword. He has no CIS that makes him dislike using particular powers. You can look up any BO 2 boss fight and see they all require a certain combination of abilities.

    So if Kain has an issue, he can work around it. He has a huge list of powers, most of which can lead to victory in this thread.

    BOOM! a 40+ source super post that covers all facets of the match with links to vids and my own respect thread for evidence

    The original super post is on page 3, post #258

    Its cooler, since it has an awsome piece of fan art by me that displays what will happen in this thread for those who do not want to read and has all the boding for emphasis of points.

  59. Amm0vamp1r3 October 3, 2015 at 10:08 am -      #1159

    Now that’s an impressive wall

  60. Karen Starr October 3, 2015 at 10:13 am -      #1160

    Tl, td; dr

  61. Nobunaga Jin October 3, 2015 at 10:50 am -      #1161

    And now we have truly come full circle with new fanart! Seriously, how is this still going?

    By the way, I only showed up to make that joke about going full circle in this thread. I am not going to spend 3 hours reading an ultra-post and arguing against it. Everyone else seems to be doing fine anyway.

  62. Mea quidem sententia October 3, 2015 at 11:53 am -      #1162

    While I was quoted a few times by Kitten Lord, I would like to say that my earlier calculations have been improved by more recent kinds. I don’t know the range of Kain’s TK, but I have no reason to believe it can travel farther that what we can observe. This alone is not an argument from ignorance, but a response to the claim that it can travel very far based on observation. The onus would be on Kitten Lord to demonstrate the distance going farther.

    As for Beerus’ speed, I am hearing that BoG has been heavily retconned, so if there is a better speed feat of Beerus, please present the evidence.

  63. Friendlysociopath October 3, 2015 at 1:13 pm -      #1163

    And after reading all of Kitten’s wall.
    He’s still making the same mistakes and fallacies, no worries people- you missed out on nothing. Pick and choose whichever bits you care to answer as they relate to you- the rest is just as worthless as it was the first time he did it.

    As our dear Friendlysociopath pointed out earlier. Kain does not “always” use TK, he just often does in this sort of situation, but out of 100 fights?

    No, not even often he does not. In just about every canon fight he was in he did not start with TK. He starts with his sword.

    Also I like how your only feat for Yamcha is him breaking stone with another body and you think its impressive….

    Actually I listed 4 different feats for Yamcha breaking stone, I simply only posted one video because I’m not wasting undue effort on a troll like you.
    There’s something hilarious about even Yamcha being able to beat Kain.

  64. Soulerous October 3, 2015 at 3:12 pm -      #1164

    I said it could be ten thousand light years.
    -It doesn’t matter what it could be. Unconfirmed possibilities are still not feats. We have to know how great a distance the seer meant, and we don’t. Kain’s displayed range is the only thing we have to go by.
    ~
    It never became a factor as far as your using it to limit Kain.
    -It was a factor that limited Kain because he couldn’t affect things with his mind beyond a certain range. He can now affect them at a “great distance,” but not any distance, because all that was confirmed is the former and not the latter.
    ~
    Someone is using their mind alone, does not mean you can suddenly suggest this is still under science and not an exception.
    -Telling me I can’t suggest something is futile if you have no supporting logic. Kain is using mental energy to move objects at range. You don’t get to say it’s an exception. I do get to say it isn’t. This is because things start out as not exceptions by default, and then must be proven to be exceptions if they are to change from that default. There is no part of using mental energy to move something at range that means range is not a factor.
    ~
    Damn, soul said there is no exception, its offical folks!
    -Here’s a tip: Responding in this way to a comment (“There is no exception”) that parallels a comment you first made (“We have an exception to the rule 12”) makes you look really petty while accomplishing nothing debate-wise. Especially when it’s a comment that immediately precedes the reasoning behind it.
    ~
    if you want to ignore evidence as per the games outright saying something is happening without physics
    -Oh, but the games don’t say that at all. They say Kain uses only his mind. They also say minds can use mental energy to accomplish paranormal effects. Kain’s mind can do something that requires energy, so it has energy. There is no reason to assume otherwise. And no, saying I’m ignoring something doesn’t help you. I’m ignoring nothing. I’m asking for proof that your interpretation actually means it’s happening without physics, and you don’t have any.
    ~
    no, as the Seer says it only requires his whim. And as the manuel says, it only requires his mind.
    -Which does not exclude his mind having energy. Because if energy is part of Kain’s mind, then using only his mind means he can still use energy. Just like using only my hand means I can still use my palm.
    ~
    You have given me some scientific hypothesis from people who have not traveled beyond our planet more than likely.
    -Do you imagine traveling beyond our planet is required to know facts about the universe? No, I gave you facts and not hypothesis. Energy is the ability to do work. If anything has the ability to do work, it has energy.
    ~
    How can you simply accept what they say any more than my claims on LoK without evidence of this in the whole universe?
    -The laws of physics do not change by going to a different galaxy, or however far you’re implying. If they did, you would have to prove it to be true. That’s the point of BankGambling. So bringing up irrelevant theories about how the laws of physics might not be universal when science says they are universal is as worthless a gesture as saying Kain might ignore physics without proving that he does.
    ~
    This is not covered by the source material.
    -Yeah, the manuals say Kain and Raziel’s use of TK expends TK energy. The games also tell us mental energy is a thing. You can’t assume they’re not using energy, as that isn’t covered by the source material. So it could go either way, couldn’t it?
    ~
    Its more, the mass has mental energy and the weapon their developing can make it travel across Nosgoth. But like Kain, the creature itself can can cause change with but a thought.
    -Not without a channel, it couldn’t. The difference between the Mass and Kain is Kain doesn’t need a channel to direct his mental energy.

  65. Numinous One October 3, 2015 at 6:28 pm -      #1165

    I was actually going to read that post, but then I saw this and deduced that you would presist with your backwards ass powerscaling.

    “They can barely land a hit on him, and at one point he even uses chopsticks off the table to control their force”

    Now for the rebuttal.
    R-R-R-RETCONNED.

    You no longer have that speed feat.
    You no longer have those low showings.
    Looks like you need to do another “super post” and base it on DB Super this time.

  66. Kara Zor-El October 3, 2015 at 7:25 pm -      #1166

    How is this even still going on?

  67. Friendlysociopath October 3, 2015 at 7:35 pm -      #1167

    How is this even still going on?

    Remember how on page 1 I said Kitten was never going to admit he was wrong?
    (gestures at nearly 13 pages)
    It’s funny really, the more he stresses he’s right the more Soul, Mea, Ptaine, and others dig and find out he’s more wrong than we thought he was originally.

    Also, since he keeps posting his silly little picture- guess I’m animating Yamcha beating Kain. No worries, it’ll be a short video.

  68. Kara Zor-El October 3, 2015 at 7:56 pm -      #1168

    “Also, since he keeps posting his silly little picture- guess I’m animating Yamcha beating Kain. No worries, it’ll be a short video.”
    _
    And since fanart is proof in his eyes, he can’t dismiss it! Excellent idea.

  69. Mea quidem sententia October 3, 2015 at 9:50 pm -      #1169

    @Kara Zor-El
    If I could tip you, I would.

  70. Mea quidem sententia October 3, 2015 at 10:25 pm -      #1170

    I decided I’d look up the hardness for pure iron, and I suppose this is properly known as alpha iron. While I cannot confirm it, the Wikipedia page says it has a strength of 280 N/mm^2, but there is a citation for its Brinell hardness, which is said to be 80 HB.

    www.totalmateria.com/page.aspx?ID=CheckArticle&LN=EN&site=kts&NM=3

    That should be close to 270 N/mm^2.

    www.bestar-steel.com/hardness

  71. Aelfinn October 4, 2015 at 12:04 am -      #1171

    @Kitten Lord
    That’s cool, that’s great, that’s fantastic. Just show me Kain using TK at 100 meters.

  72. Mea quidem sententia October 4, 2015 at 11:00 am -      #1172

    I’m curious as to why range even matters. I seen Kain having to stretch out his arm before using TK. The Z fighters have reacted to things faster than that.

  73. Friendlysociopath October 4, 2015 at 8:52 pm -      #1173

    The Z fighters have reacted to things faster than that.

    Well apparently according to Kitten Lord, they will stand there and “Charge Up” for literally the entire time it takes Kain to raise his arm and TK them.
    OR
    They will stand there talking and let Kain hit them with TK first.

  74. Numinous One October 4, 2015 at 9:38 pm -      #1174

    You know I noticed something, at the start of Super they show the Buu fight in a flashback, more specifically, the anime Buu fight.

    Did Super canonize the DBZ anime doing that?
    Obviously you can’t reference a non canon material.

  75. Mea quidem sententia October 4, 2015 at 10:14 pm -      #1175

    @Friendlysociopath
    I recall that when Goku made it to planet Namek, he did none of that when he fought the Ginyu Force. He simply whooped them without any effort. Same with Nappa. Correct me if I’m wrong, but does Goku still do this? And if so, does he only “charge up” when fighting more threatening opponents?

  76. Numinous One October 4, 2015 at 10:39 pm -      #1176

    “Correct me if I’m wrong, but does Goku still do this? And if so, does he only “charge up” when fighting more threatening opponents?”

    Only against the arrogant sorts that allow him to.
    Against Buu he had to use Vegeta as a meatshield while he charged up so he didn’t get murdered in the meantime.

  77. Friendlysociopath October 4, 2015 at 11:10 pm -      #1177

    I recall that when Goku made it to planet Namek, he did none of that when he fought the Ginyu Force.

    Well the Ginyu Force was introduced with the sole point of being pathetic. In the anime they even got beat up by Yamcha.

    Correct me if I’m wrong, but does Goku still do this?

    Charge up or beat people? He still charges when he thinks it is needed- but he’s quiet capable in his base form as well.

    And if so, does he only “charge up” when fighting more threatening opponents?

    I see you’ve caught on- yes- charging is reserved for known foes of greater power. Kitten uses “charging” to also mean anime-filler where the characters spend multiple seconds in an attack pose and screaming.
    Cause it totally takes them 5 seconds to throw a punch, these people that move so quickly a bullet-timer sees nothing.

    Something to note, multiple times in DBZ Goku, Trunks, and even Vegeta have powered up by merely twitching a bit.
    No screaming.
    No drawn-out transformation.
    No “charging”.
    Do they have long charging moments? Yeah- they also have reflex changes that happens pretty much instantly. The manga certainly didn’t make it seem like Goku had to spend 10 minutes screaming to reach Super Saiyan.

  78. Kitten Lord October 5, 2015 at 5:01 am -      #1178

    @Nobunga

    “. I am not going to spend 3 hours reading an ultra-post and arguing against it. ”

    Its ok, nobody else is. Their more interested in trolling me or talking about irrelevencies and arguing it like it matters.

    The trolling stance seems to be popular, why dont you just go with that?

    @Friendly

    “No, not even often he does not.”

    Yes he does, he uses it in almost every fight since he gained it and often during his travels. He uses it against Magnus, he uses it against the Sarafan lord, he uses it against Moebius, he uses it against Raziel.

    Infact, it would be harder to consider who he has faced and not used it again, maybe the Elder God…thats about it.

    “There’s something hilarious about even Yamcha being able to beat Kain.”

    Whats more hilarious is that you think him being able to break some stone means he can hurt Kain…..or that, he can beat someone who can casually baby shake Beerus and the whole series…

    “Cause it totally takes them 5 seconds to throw a punch, these people that move so quickly a bullet-timer sees nothing.”

    Sometimes longer. It took Nappa like 10 seconds if you read my super post just to run to Krillin while he was Charging UP! his disc.

    It took nappa time to run to Goku as well.

    Every character in Z has a character flaw that results in Kain literally tearing them apart with TK before they actually do anything.

    And stop bringing up your nonsense on that fight scene between young Goku and Piccolo, itsl ike the only scene you have where you can try and interpret bullet timers who cna see bullets (not proven) not being able to see Goku. This was proven not to be supersonic at all, since as Mea calcluated in the DBZ power thread, a human mass moving at that speed would create crators in the arena, yet we know Goku did not do this.

    We know a giant piccolo stomping around did. And some of thieir ki blasts, that is all.

    “The manga certainly didn’t make it seem like Goku had to spend 10 minutes screaming to reach Super Saiyan.”

    What an ignorant comment. The manga, which is a series of still images, often without any way of determine time somehow brought you to this conclusion……

    @Soul

    “It doesn’t matter what it could be”

    No of course not, again, never said that was relevant, I was pointing out that you bringing up “great distance” to mean a limited distance is wrong.

    ” Kain’s displayed range is the only thing we have to go by.”

    Until you provide proof that this range is actually a range, and is limited by distance these statements are as always a waste of time.

    “-It was a factor that limited Kain because he couldn’t affect things with his mind beyond a certain range.”

    No he could not affect things with this power at a distance, now he can. That is all we know.

    “-Telling me I can’t suggest something is futile if you have no supporting logic”

    I have supporting logic, the clear logic that the source material does not add other factors, it explicitly says “only” and “alone” and on top of that, their talking about abstract things like will and mind.

    Then you bounce in with your fallacious reasoning and apply energy because you think it helps you arbitrarily apply limits of distance as a factor. It doesn’t…

    ” Especially when it’s a comment that immediately precedes the reasoning behind it.”

    Only, this did not happen. I read the apparent reasoning and you had none that supported what you said.

    “They say Kain uses only his mind.”

    Right, ergo, he uses ONLY an abstract medium. They do not say, he uses only his mind…oh…and energy!

    “They also say minds can use mental energy to accomplish paranormal effects.”

    When? they say the Mass had mental energy. One description of something somehow makes a trend for you then? The mass has so all mind use does….

    “Do you imagine traveling beyond our planet is required to know facts about the universe? ”

    Its not case of imagining anything, its a fact that assuming something is a fact in the whole universe when at best your a civilization that spans the grand total of a single planet with equally limited ways of perceiving the whole universe is ignorance.

    ” If they did, you would have to prove it to be true.”

    Do I? why? Why cant I just say what I am saying and that we cannot assume it to be true or false. Which is correct reasoning. Why do you think your sources are allowed to claim its true without showing it is in the entire universes and all facets of it? you know, once upon a time the great minds of this world thought it was flat…..not akin to a sphere.

    “-Yeah, the manuals say Kain and Raziel’s use of TK expends TK energy”

    Does it? Quote it please. And if your refering purely to the manuel describing gameplay mecanics, find something else, we do not use mechanics.

    “-Not without a channel, it couldn’t”

    It could not do what they wanted it to do, which was kill everyone they wanted to kill on Nosgoth, ergo, everyone not Hylden without their “weapon” being fnished.

    “he difference between the Mass and Kain is Kain ”

    Is Kain uses the mind “alone”, he uses his “will” alone….he does not need anything beyond those things.

    @Numin

    “You no longer have those low showings.”

    Can you actually prove its been retconned and that their not seperate canonically? Is there an official comment on this?

    Also their not low showings, they were Beerus’ only showings. And Super does not give him much more. He still takes seconds- minutes to travel from the lower clouds to an island on the landscape..

    @Kara

    “And since fanart is proof in his eyes, he can’t dismiss it! Excellent idea.”

    Its not proof, it just helps people who cant be bothered to read the facts I have provided find out what is happening in this thread at a glance.

    @Mea

    “I’m curious as to why range even matters. I seen Kain having to stretch out his arm before using TK. The Z fighters have reacted to things faster than that.”

    Ir does not matter.

    The Z fighers do not react and start fighting immediately in the time it takes Kain to move his hand, if you read my super post, I have this fact with them charging up, with them hanging about and allowing opponents to hit them due to hubris.

    Its more the other side of the coin, it hardly matters what range Kain does, because even if Kain had to walk slowly up to the angry, arrogent Z fighters that hey are while their charging up for 5 episodes and use TK, he would still win!

    “I recall that when Goku made it to planet Namek, he did none of that when he fought the Ginyu Force. He simply whooped them without any effort. Same with Nappa. Correct me if I’m wrong, but does Goku still do this? And if so, does he only “charge up” when fighting more threatening opponents?”

    Yeah he does, they all charge up at some point or other. Beerus less so but then, he has no feats of worth.

    The ones who actually show great acts of power, take time to charge up. If you watch Dragon ball Super and his fight with Beerus, both Goku and Beerus themselves hang about charging up.

    And therin lies the amusing fact that Kain could win, even if he himself did take a lot of time to do things. The fact he can kill most of them in a gesture makes this an easy award for Kain. The fact it would take them a long time just to break his skin, and a lot of their energy makes this more amusing still.

    Quick fact of the day! Even when suped up, and powerful. Goku still hangs about yelling Kamehahaslowass power or w/e its called when he fires his lazorz!

    Its lucky Beerus does not actually try and wreck Goku…but oh look! Beerus has a character flaw in that he wants to see the best his opponent has to offer, kind of like Goku.

  79. Ninja Lowk October 5, 2015 at 5:54 am -      #1179

    “Can you actually prove its been retconned and that their not seperate canonically? Is there an official comment on this?”

    Toriyama is remaking the events of the movies to continue the series on and add a new plot.
    www.kanzenshuu.com/2015/07/01/dragon-ball-super-complete-showcase-event-reveals-series-plot/?_ga=1.254633089.848339417.1437398957
    ===
    “Beerus has a character flaw in that he wants to see the best his opponent has to offer”

    Because he wanted to specifically fight a super sayian god that he saw in his dreams.

  80. Numinous One October 5, 2015 at 6:25 am -      #1180

    “He still takes seconds- minutes to travel from the lower clouds to an island on the landscape..”

    Which is then followed by Goku flying from an unknown depth in the ocean to the edge of space, or even space itself, in about 13seconds.
    I pointed that out earlier and it was ignored.
    Stop cherrypicking.

    And for probably the final time I’ll be saying this.
    Stop referencing the DBZ anime as a reliable source.
    If you want to go down that route then they have FTL combat speeds as early as the Frieza fight, and all your supposition about them being subsonic goes out the window.

  81. Friendlysociopath October 5, 2015 at 8:53 am -      #1181

    Yes he does, he uses it in almost every fight since he gained it and often during his travels. He uses it against Magnus, he uses it against the Sarafan lord, he uses it against Moebius, he uses it against Raziel.

    Cutscenes trump gameplay Kitten.
    Magnus- Proof via cutscene?
    Sarafan Lord- Proof via cutscene?
    Moebius- Once out of 3 times, and only after he previously charged with a sword and was thoroughly defeated.
    Raziel- Once out of 3 times, only after he repeatedly allowed Raziel to close the distance.
    Looks like in his later incarnations Kain is too arrogant to use his powers properly. Damn shame.

    Whats more hilarious is that you think him being able to break some stone means he can hurt Kain

    Correction, I know Yamcha can destroy Kain’s body with a single attack- because Kain has not been proven to be as durable as you say he is.

    or that, he can beat someone who can casually baby shake Beerus and the whole series…

    By your logic sure, unfortunately for you, we don’t use your logic.

    Every character in Z has a character flaw that results in Kain literally tearing them apart with TK before they actually do anything.

    Alas, Kain can’t even follow the characters the moment they start moving since he doesn’t have the required feats.
    Too bad.

    Its ok, nobody else is.

    Well I personally like to ignore piles of shit in my path.

  82. CH1C4N0444 is allergic to bullets October 5, 2015 at 8:59 am -      #1182

    “If you want to go down that route then they have FTL combat speeds as early as the Frieza fight, and all your supposition about them being subsonic goes out the window.”

    And guys who can destroy a galaxy in a few years and don’t stand around and bullshit(Buu).

  83. Mea quidem sententia October 5, 2015 at 9:47 am -      #1183

    @Kitten Lord
    Well, it’s funny that Kain never easily defeats his opponents. Must be that interest in fighting, rather than always using his telekinesis.

  84. Soulerous October 5, 2015 at 12:25 pm -      #1184

    Its not case of imagining anything
    -Yeah, you are imagining that science cannot know things to be true without travelling beyond the planet, which makes no sense and isn’t true. Universal laws are universal. We’re talking about the properties of matter and energy, not local-area systems.
    ~
    Do I? why?
    -Because you claimed it. Prove the laws of physics change in different parts of the universe or accept that the claim means nothing.
    ~
    once upon a time the great minds of this world thought it was flat…..not akin to a sphere.
    -Negatory. www.bede.org.uk/flatearth.htm
    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_the_flat_Earth
    ~
    And by the way, examples of theories do not diminish scientific facts that have been tested with proper scientific procedures. Energy is required for anything to change anywhere in the universe. I provided a quote from a scientific book that says this. Deal with it.
    ~
    I was pointing out that you bringing up “great distance” to mean a limited distance is wrong.
    -I didn’t. Kain’s range is limited because his pre-TK ability, which was said to use sheer will, was limited in range. This proves beyond the shadow of a doubt that using will is no reason for an ability to have unlimited range. So since TK isn’t proven to have unlimited range by the fact that it uses will, I was pointing out that the statement about great distance also does not prove it. There is no reason to think TK has range greater than we’ve seen.
    ~
    No he could not affect things with this power at a distance, now he can.
    -I beg to differ. Right here he drains blood at a distance. He opens a box without touching it immediately after. This is before he visits the seer. Clearly he can manipulate objects at a short distance, just like the seer said he could. But his range was certainly limited.
    ~
    Right, ergo, he uses ONLY an abstract medium. They do not say, he uses only his mind…oh…and energy!
    -They don’t need to say it if they aren’t two separate things. When they say he uses his mind to affect things, the energy is automatically implied if it’s part of his mind. Just like the palm’s inclusion is automatically implied by the use of the hand.
    ~
    When? they say the Mass had mental energy. One description of something somehow makes a trend for you then? The mass has so all mind use does
    -Like I said: Minds can use mental energy to accomplish paranormal effects. The facts that:
    1) It is possible that Kain can use mental energy as well; and
    2) He’s accomplishing something, which requires energy;
    Means your interpretation that no energy is used is not proof of anything, because my interpretation is completely valid.
    ~
    It could not do what they wanted it to do
    -It could not do anything. As the builder says, it is “harmless without a channel for its mind.”
    ~
    Is Kain uses the mind “alone”, he uses his “will” alone….he does not need anything beyond those things.
    -And the Mass’s “very mind is capable of killing any living thing with but a thought.” Yet it uses mental energy. It’s mind can kill with but a thought; it’s mind is being given responsibility. It is the Mass’s mind that can do this, not it’s body or anything else. It’s mind kills with but a thought, and Kain’s mind moves things. Mental energy is used for one; it can be used for the other. You can’t say it’s impossible. It’s very clearly possible.

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