Kain Vs DBZ gauntlet

Kain vs DBZ gauntlet

Suggested by Kitten Lord

Kain (LOK) will run DBZ gauntlet

The gauntlet will consist of 10 DBZ characters;
1) Yamcha
2) Master Roshi
3) Nappa
4) Krillin (Cell Saga)
5) Perfect Cell
6) Gohan (Buu saga)
7) Buu (Kid Buu)
8) Piccolo (Post Buu Saga)
9) Vegeta (SS2, Battle of the Gods)
10) Goku (at his peak)
11) Beerus (At his peak)
Bonus round; All of them at once vs Kain if he gets it this far and beats Beerus.
Second Bonus; If he beats the Bonus, he fights Whis
Battlefield; Solar system, starting planet Earth somewhere in the middle of central park. 100 meters apart. The trees, hills etc have been flattened for the battlefield.
Rules; Kain gets his sword, all his powers and spells from the games, the DBZ characters do not generally have items so ill leave them with fisticuffs
Victory; DBZ characters have to permanently incapacitate Kain, as in, destroy his body, they do not have to destroy Kains soul to win. Kain has to kill/incapacitate all DBZ characters.

How will this end?

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1,168 Comments on "Kain Vs DBZ gauntlet"

  1. Mea quidem sententia September 10, 2015 at 11:07 am -      #1001

    @Kitten Lord
    The only thing telling the player is that pressing a specific button allows the player to drink blood, but drinking blood itself or the situation in which blood drinking can only occur is not a mechanic. You cannot apply mechanics to manuals.

    It doesn’t use the word “required”, but the only factors given are to “either” stun or incapacitate. That means “stun” is the first of the two options, and although other alternatives are possible, we are given no other options. That’s where you must provide evidence. I expect to see it from the game itself.

    Whenever Kain has drained blood, I’ve seen him bit into his enemy, or incapacitate his enemy by impalement, or by killing the enemy. Since the game shows what Kain can do, we must use game play to determine that ability. Once again, you’re saying, “There is nothing in the actual games where Kain says he has to weaken anyone at all to drink their blood”, but I counter this ad ignorantiam with, “There is nothing in the actual games where Kain says he doesn’t have to weaken anyone at all to drink their blood.”

    If you are truly confident in believing that Kain doesn’t need to kill his opponent, or stun, or incapacitate in order to drink blood through telekinetic means, then prove it through the games and manuals. Again, manuals lack mechanics. The only thing that the manual says is how to use the attack, which would be equivalent to the Elder God or someone telling Kain, “Raise your arm up, imagine you are using grabbing an object at a distance, and use your hand in tandem.”

  2. Kitten Lord September 10, 2015 at 11:36 am -      #1002

    @Mea

    “The only thing telling the player”

    Are you playing silly buggers with me? the whole entry is about what the player does to drink blood. “press the I key next to stunned/vulnerable enemies” how can you possibly argue this as not being a description of a mechanic? pressing the I key? does Kain look for the “i” key on his reaver or something?

    “the situation in which blood drinking can only occur”

    And this is a continued lie. You know full well it does not say blood drinking can only occur in those situations.

    “but the only factors given”

    So? How does that prove there are not other factors or that those factors are required?


    “That’s where you must provide evidence.”

    Do not join the others in that old ploy, dodging burdon of proof is a good old game concerning TK and the only reason it is is because I let it get out of hand before calling it out and now its convoluted. But I am going to cutt off this head now. Your assertion has yet to be proven, that enemies “have” to be vulnerable or w/e for Kain to drink blood and your assertion, only source for this conclusion is the manuel that tells players how to play the game by pressing a key and does not actually support your conclusion anyway.

    “If you are truly confident in believing that Kain doesn’t need to ”

    I am confident Kain no more needs to stun his opponents to drink blood as I am confident Goku does not rely on having orange trousers to use his ki…

    Completely unrelated. We even have a dev quote saying Kain TK’s blood to him, nobody has to be previously incapacitated for Kain to use TK. It is a power aligned to his whim as is the movement of other peoples blood.

    “The only thing that the manual says ”

    All it says is “press I near vulneralbe enemies”, it does not say what you want it to say, which is “Kain only drinks from vulnerable enemies”, which is a ridiculous assumption. As if he has to weaken someone before he can just grab them and tear their throat out…

    What if someone had a nose bleed? is that vulnerable enough for Kain to lick the bleed or does he have to somehow knock them out first according to your logic? Your crusade on bashing and downplaying Kain is getting to the absurd now, at least when you used calcs (that you foiled and I corrected in the Godzilla thread) it gives you the appearance of knowing what your talking about…

  3. Friendlysociopath September 10, 2015 at 12:16 pm -      #1003

    Not sure. Can you paralyse an undead?

    Probably, Vampires in LoK still have hearts that push blood around in their bodies and still use muscles to do things.
    Attacks that paralyze biologically like poison should still work.
    Attacks that cause muscles to freak out (electricity) should also work.

    Also I thought DBZ has teleportation in it…

    They do, IT, which has a specific sound effect and gesture. That is the only form of teleportation ever shown. Everything else is just speed.
    We had this conversation already.

    We know that when fighting and flying around he is in the low supersonic range.

    Not really, I calc’d them at Mach 8 with the lowest of lowballs- Mach 26 would be more accurate depending on the clouds. And they can move and fight at these speeds consistently.

    This would be KL ignoring evidence again. Because that in no way makes him look stupid.

  4. Mea quidem sententia September 10, 2015 at 12:18 pm -      #1004

    @Kitten Lord
    You’ll notice the words “stun”, “incapacitate”, and “vulnerable”. So you’ll be able to demonstrate to me that Kain doesn’t rely on these in order to drink blood from his opponents at a distance. It’s no more of a mechanic than Navi telling Link to press “A” to attack” and “R” to put up his shield. That’s for the benefit of the audience, but in no way means that Link must swing his sword to attack and put up his shield to defend himself. See how I removed the mechanics? Simple.

    And you know full well that it doesn’t say blood drinking can occur any other way. If you can stop with the ad ignorantiam, that would be a good start. I’ve already showed you the manual and that and the game itself (as far as I’m aware) hasn’t shown Kain’s ability to drain blood at a distance from someone who is not stunned, incapacitated, or vulnerable. Hell, even dead, but “incapacitated” refers to unconscious or semi-conscious, so I guess that really doesn’t matter.

    I’m just the middle man. If you think Kain can drain blood any other way, prove it.

    The burden of proof isn’t on me because I wasn’t the one who started with this whole idea that Kain can drink blood from someone who is not stunned, incapacitated, or vulnerable. You’re the one who needs to prove it because even if I was the one with the burden of proof, I already provided. The ball is in your court either way. Again, I’ve used the manuals and the games. These aren’t assertions like you want to believe. Otherwise, turning into mist is a game mechanic because you have to press a button.

    That’s a false analogy. We know Goku can use his ki at any time. We’ve seen him use his ki wearing different outfits. We could even compare Goku with other saiyans like Vegeta to know orange trousers aren’t necessary to use ki. Using ki is possible for anyone because it’s in everyone.

    You can provide this quote and source if it exists.

    “When an enemy is vulnerable (either stunned or otherwise incapacitated), Kain can consume its blood to restore his health.” (LoK:D manual, p. 14)

    You’ll notice it says “when”, not “if”. This refers to what circumstances. It could also be understood as “After/Whenever an enemy is vulnerable”. “Can” refers to “be able to”, or “have the opportunity or possibility to”, or “be permitted to”. And look, no pressing of any buttons, either. I’m not even saying, “Kain only drinks blood from vulnerable enemies”, since he can get close to bite or drink blood from certain objects that hold blood. Nice straw man, though.

    I’m not sure what situation that would be concerning a nose bleed, but it’d probably be possible to drain, since it’s exposed, much like blood fountains.

    I like how you say I have a crusade on bashing and downplaying Kain. That’s funny. Because I cannot sleep a night without thinking of Kain and what I can do to downplay him even more. Yep, that’s what I do, especially on my spare time. I think more about my own characters I have created than I think about Kain. I’ve already told you I don’t hate Kain. I actually find him to be an interesting character. By the way, when I was watching Courage the Cowardly Dog, there was an episode with a character named “the Silhouette Maker”. He sounded like Kain. I got a laugh from it.

  5. CH1C4N0444 is allergic to bullets September 10, 2015 at 4:12 pm -      #1005

    “Because I cannot sleep a night without thinking of Kain and what I can do to downplay him even more. Yep, that’s what I do, especially on my spare time. ”

    He seems to lack an understanding of sarcasm, so he’ll probably think you’re being serious.

  6. Mea quidem sententia September 10, 2015 at 6:31 pm -      #1006

    @CH1C4N0444
    That’d be funny.

  7. CH1C4N0444 is allergic to bullets September 10, 2015 at 6:35 pm -      #1007

    @Mea Well, he’s been taking my “Kain is love, Kain is life” posts seriously thus far.

  8. Nsl98 September 10, 2015 at 6:46 pm -      #1008

    That’s because Kain is legitimately both life and love. It’s only natural for mankind to evolve into this plane of thinking.

  9. Tarbel September 11, 2015 at 5:25 pm -      #1009

    @Kitten Lord
    www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/telekinesis
    “the production of motion in objects (as by a spiritualistic medium) without contact or other physical means”

    The “without contact” part and “other” contextually implies using another object or physical (as in tangible) thing to contact the object being telekinetically moved. It is not defining telekinesis as movement through means other than the physical laws of the universe..

  10. Soulerous September 11, 2015 at 6:11 pm -      #1010

    You also mentioned how radiation damages cells yet we do not see this from TK.
    -TK energy is not gamma radiation. My examples of electromagnetic energy are for showing that certain things are possible. Not that TK energy shares all the propeties of the various types of electromagnetic energy. No need for you to comment on this further; just accept it for what it is and move on.
    ~
    None of these energies can “move” people despite the planet being bombarded with all such kinds of waves for milleniia.
    -I never said they could move people. I said light can carry kinetic energy, because you asked.
    ~
    Where was this sourced?
    -Post #959.
    ~
    And there is nothing in our science that travels as a massless wave yet can move objects.
    –Wrong.
    ~
    The rule does not say “we use it unless there is an exception”
    -Yes it does. The line “Our reality’s normal rules of logic and physics are to be used and respected for the quantification of feats” tells us to use logic and physics for quantifying feats. The line “Exceptions to this may occur when the setting in question ignores or changes this standard” tells us when exceptions can occur.
    ~
    it outright says we apply physics to other universes and assume they have similiar physics and energy.
    -The same physics, not similar. Energy is not mentioned, just physics and logic are.
    ~
    You can contact Admin and he can state whether that is the case.
    -You can contact him yourself if you think it’ll do you any good.
    ~
    Also TK itself as I said is an exception. Its a supernatural power. E.g. not scientific in nature. You do not like the fact is is an exception because it dumps your rule that your trying to force into meaning what you want.
    -I’m not interested in your fictitious explanation of what I feel and why I feel it. Telekinesis is moving objects without physical contact, sometimes with mental or spiritual power. Nothing about it means physics are ignored, just as Tarbel so simply and effectively points out.
    ~
    It’s a fictional power. We don’t have any real-life examples of it. It can mean whatever the author wants it to, and you can’t cherry-pick any one definition to say it has specific properties. You can say it’s moving things without touching them. You can also say a unicorn looks like a horse with a single horn, but you cannot use the definitions that also say it’s a magical creature to prove that the unicorns of any given fiction are magical if the fiction never establishes this. Point being there is nothing in Legacy of Kain that implies physics are ignored by TK, and you can’t use a specific dictionary definition to prove it either.
    ~
    I do not but it is not like it would matter, half if not all of my opposition have broken the rules, committed fallacies and what not recently and often.
    -Others breaking rules is not an excuse for you to do so. Not that I’m convinced they have.
    ~
    Kain is not, his mind is.
    -Kain’s mind is part of him. Hence Kain being the origin of this power.
    ~
    Prove his mind has energy, and then prove where his mind actually is considering the mind is not a physical thing itself.
    -The mind doing something that requires energy proves it. You prove it’s not in his body. That’s where the spirit/soul resides in Legacy of Kain.
    ~
    Well more modern science is apparently finding evidence for this.
    -Nothing has been found to disprove conservation of energy.
    ~
    Again not true even in physics. Energy is everywhere, Kain manipulating it does not require him to do so from a point of space.
    -Yes, energy is everywhere. And without being acted upon by something, it will continue in it’s normal processes. A stone at rest will remain at rest. When Kain exercises telekinetic power to influence the stone, his consciousness is using energy to do so. As long as his consciousness is not omnipresent, it will have to reach from it’s location, which would be Kain’s body/head, to it’s target. If it does not do so, the stone has no reason to move. Unless you throw away physics, which you’re not able to do.
    ~
    I will not assume every change in the universe. That is a theory because we have no explored or observed the entire universe. And the more modern sciences are starting to gain new insights from the quantum realm, multiple universes etc.
    -Modern science says the same thing science has been saying: “A system possesses energy if it has the ability to do work.” (Source)
    ~
    That’s why every change in the universe requires it. Energy is the medium of change. If something happens, if work was done, it was because of energy.
    hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/work.html
    ~
    Moving an object is work. It requires energy. Kain can moves objects. That requires energy. The manuals speak of energy. In the games we see energy. Telekinesis requires energy, and because there is distance between Kain and his target and no physical contact, that energy must travel between them. Whether Kain can use telekinesis at range beyond what he’s demonstrated is a valid question. The burden is on you to provide explicit proof that range is not a factor like it usually is. Range being a factor is always the default. It not being so is a change from the ordinary.

  11. Kitten Lord September 12, 2015 at 5:33 am -      #1011

    @Friendly

    “till have hearts that push blood around in their bodies”

    Can this be proven?

    I imagine they do use muscles. Which is a possible interpretation.

    “They do, IT, ”

    Yes I thought they had teleportation. Which counters Numins comment on things being introduced in the series.

    “Not really, I calc’d them at Mach 8”

    You assumed during a period we do not even see them they they “flew” up to space without knowing they actually did so or how long it took because they are not on screen.

    “This would be KL ignoring evidence again”

    Ironic since you ignore the only clear, gaugable feat we have for Beerus moving fast.

    @Mea

    “That’s for the benefit of the audience”

    So is players being told to look out for incapciated/stunned enemies. Its exactly the same as other games with quick time events like God of war, where Kratos has to wait until an enemy is stunned before he can actually stab them in the gut. Obviously this is an aburd thing to bring up as a limitation, just like this is for Kain in canon because someone being weakened should not change where you stab them.

    “I’m just the middle man.”

    Then be a middle man and stop trying to assert incapcitation is necessery or even implied to be.

    ” I already provided”

    You provided a description in the manuel of a gameplay mechanic. Said description does not say “kain” has to do those things before he can feed.

    ” Goku with other saiyans like Vegeta to know orange trousers aren’t necessary to use ki.”

    Oh look. See , you reasoned it. You reasoned why we know this is not the case, but you fail to reason why we apparently know the state of the target is relevant when Kain is manipulating blood. Your just claiming it is.

    ” This refers to what circumstances”

    Stop making up false interpretations. I can go for a job when its cloudy outside. Does that mean I cannot go for a jog when it is sunny as well?

    “, but it’d probably be possible to drain, since it’s exposed”

    So your assuming something else. Exposed blood does not require you to weaken an enemy beforehand then by your logic? So somehow according to you everyone in LoK somehow can resist the blood in their bodies being magically moved?

    This makes no sense at all. Your logic is awful.

    “. I’ve already told you I don’t hate Kain.”

    Then stop acting like you do by going on a downplay crusade.

    @Tarbel

    “contextually implies using another object or physical ”

    How did you take a definition that says “non phyiscal” means and spiritual powers and try and argue it implies using a physical contact?

    Incredible….

    @Soul

    “I never said they could move people”

    Well if we are using real scientific energy and are not making things up because apparently you do not like a non scientific approach what massless energy moves people without contact or physical means?

    “–Wrong.”

    You say that yet it says;

    “n fact, this is theoretically possible: objects can be pulled towards a light source.”

    Did you not argue previously concerning quantum mechanics that those are just “theories from some people”

    “The same physics, not similar.”

    And under our physics you cannot move objects with the mind. Take a non physical medium like a whim or a thought and without contact or physical means move another.

    “I’m not interested in your fictitious explanation”

    Speaking of fictitious explanations why do you think I should listen to yours on the nature of TK?

    ” Nothing about it means physics are ignored”

    without physical means implies this yes….everything in a physical universe being physical means in some way or another.

    ” We don’t have any real-life examples of it. ”

    There are no real life examples but what “TK” means is clearly defined and every definition found so far implies no contact, which means even energy cannot be the reason because energy contacts an object to affect it as you have gone blue in the fingers typing to me over and over as ii f it proves your claim range is a factor here.

    “Others breaking rules is not an excuse for you to do so”

    It just means clearly the rules are of no relevance to the site anymore. People can bash, flame and regurgitate fallacies without reproach apparently, disappointing.

    “Kain’s mind is part of him.”

    What do you mean by part and origin? His mind is his conciousness sure but when you say “energy comes from Kain and to the object” it is almost like your speaking of phyiscal processes and transfers, not a non phyiscal mind.

    “The mind doing something that requires energy proves it. ”

    Objects have energy as I pointed out. So the required energy is already at the point of origin assuming this supernatural, non scientific power requires energy like your assertions require.

    “When Kain exercises telekinetic power to influence the stone”

    He is causing work on the stone, the stone gains kinetic energy as a byproduct of him moving it.

    “o. As long as his consciousness is not omnipresent,”


    Consciousness is not plottable in space so this comment is moot. This is what we call an exception to physics.

    ” which would be Kain’s body/head, to it’s target.”

    This would be contact from Kain to the target, ergo not telekeinsis.

    ” If it does not do so, the stone has no reason to move”

    The only reason it needs under science to move is that it has kinetic energy. Something does not have to travel “from” Kain to the target for it to get kinetic energy.

    “If something happens, if work was done, it was because of energy.”

    ” and because there is distance between Kain and his target and no physical contact, that energy must travel between them. ”

    First you say something that I can start to consider. Maybe we can say “an object is moving due to TK so it has kinetic energy” but then you make the next leap and say something must have traveleld from Kain.

    I must say debating with you can be more disapointing than debating with most Soulerous. You start off with interpretations of energy which start to sound interesting discussion, hence why I said earlier I can agree that an interpretation on energy can exist, but then you fall down flat when you chuck in “travel” and “distance” which is not necessary.

    The object Kain is making move has kinetic energy. That is all. How it gains this is unknown beyond the facts we have, which is Kain wills it to move using only his mind.

    “that energy must travel between them”

    This whole theory falls down flat when we know that if the energy contacting the target body is extreme enough to launch it, shatter it etc then it should have some effect on the environment as it passes. Afterall it passes through other physical objects. Like clothing for instance.

    Kain manipulates the blood of that guard in the comic with enough force to tear through his chest, bones and what not. According to your theory he should be projecting energy which somehow reaches his blood but it manipulates the blood which is physical particles but does not damage to the mans chest and clothing until its pulled out.

    “Whether Kain can use telekinesis at range beyond what he’s demonstrated is a valid question”

    If anything science makes that question even more fallacious of an assertion. What with particles appearing out of nothing in quantum mechanics and energy itself being everywhere, nothing has to travel from kain. He just has to manipulate energy in objects even by science despite the exception that is TK and control with hte mind itself.

    If energy is everywhere then nothing has to travel to manipulate said energy. Some process is always happening. The blood example suggests Kains will described scientifically of course is causing a change in the energy in a body. The energy already in a persons cells and what not goes from “at rest potential” to “kinetic” in a moment.

  12. Friendlysociopath September 12, 2015 at 9:28 am -      #1012

    Can this be proven?

    Be kinda pointless to have a “beating heart” and not have it performing the basic function of pushing blood around.
    And I’m pretty sure the massive spurts of blood they can have point to pressure pushing it through their veins too- if they were dead with no blood pressure it would sort of just fall out.

    You assumed during a period we do not even see them they they “flew” up to space without knowing they actually did so or how long it took because they are not on screen.

    Beerus can’t teleport so yes, they flew up into space during the time the camera is not on them.
    And the song + Roshi and company talking continues perfectly in real-time to indicate no extra time has passed.

  13. Mea quidem sententia September 12, 2015 at 11:01 am -      #1013

    @Kitten Lord
    So is being told that Raziel’s strength is greater in this life than it was in the one before. So if you want to dismiss what’s said in the manuals and demonstrated in the games, then there’s nothing else to talk about. I don’t see the absurdity of Kain being unable to stab his opponent until they’re stunned, especially if their opponent won’t permit it to happen. Not that it matters anyway because at least stabbing someone at any time is realistic, just as not being able to stab someone until the opportunity arises is realistic. Not so much with drinking blood from a distance, since that’s impossible in reality. Besides, unless you have any evidence of the games saying that about Kain, I’ll dismiss your point.

    Except I’m not trying to assert anything. Sorry, but you don’t get to pick and choose when the manuals or game play can be ignored. It says it right in the manual. There’s no assertion, no implication, just fact.

    I’ve already told you that manuals are exempt from game mechanics since they’re not occurring in the game. I also quoted the part where there is no mention of a game mechanic. The manual does say Kain has to do x, y, and z before he can feed from a human at a distance. It says “when” and “can”. It doesn’t say “if” or “shall”.

    Of course I reasoned it. I’ve reasoned it based off of what I’ve observed in the series. The difference is that with the manual, I don’t have to reason. It says so right in the manual and that’s how it occurs in the game. Your failure to provide evidence of Kain draining blood at a distance from a human who is not vulnerable does not support what you’re saying. I was strict on Alpha or Omega with regard to the Metroid manga being canon. I demanded that he provided Yoshioi Sakamoto saying that he worked on the manga or had any part in it. I’m doing the same with you. Kind of hard to make claims when the evidence is clearly spelled out.

    I fail to see what you’re trying to argue, since you can go outside for a job on a cloudy day and jog on a sunny day. In fact, that’s testable and I’ve done it myself numerous times. Try coming up with an argument as to why Kain doesn’t need to make his opponent vulnerable. I want what the games, manuals, devs say.

    I see no reason why the exposure of blood coming from your nose would require you to be weakened. It’s like the blood fountains that Kain can drink from using his blood drain at a distance. So it’s more of an observation than it is an assumption. But the manuals themselves say that in order to drain blood at a distance, Kain needs to make his enemy vulnerable.

    Your assumption that I hate Kain because I’m “on a downplay crusade” is ridiculous. It really is. I’ve told you before that when I thought Samus’ ability to withstand 955 g was cool, I felt there was something wrong with it. I went after that claim every time OriginalA brought it up. Or if anyone brought it up. It was mostly him, though. That doesn’t mean I hated Samus. I was taking an approach that coincided with the rest of the series. Samus never punched anyone across the room or splattered them.

    This whole thing was based on the idea that Zebes’ mass was 4.8 trillion teratons with a diameter of 11,700 km. and having Samus lift herself up on Zebes without her powered armor. This meant without her armor, Samus was extremely durable to firearms, cloud leap at hypersonic speeds and even run at those speeds. The only way anyone could say that the reason why we never observed these was because on every planet or space station, the gravity was already that high. I thought it was complete, and utter bullshit.

    So when I discovered that 4.8 billion teratons placed Zebes’ gravitational acceleration at 9.36 m/s^2, it was a start with evidence that exposed the folly of what many assumed. If you think I’m on a crusade to downplay Kain, and if that means I hate Kain, then that means I hate my favorite character of all fiction.

    Anyway, I’m moving on. It’s an impasse.

  14. Kitten Lord September 12, 2015 at 4:45 pm -      #1014

    @Friendly

    “Be kinda pointless to have a “beating heart” ”

    What beating heart are you refering to? the heart of darkness? If so that thing was beating even after being torn out.

    “And I’m pretty sure the massive spurts of blood they can have”

    I do not know, because when Kain had his heart actually torn out he did not have that much blood at all. You can see the stain on his chest later on and its barely a small patch.

    “Beerus can’t teleport so yes, they flew up into space during the time the camera is not on them.”

    No idea what happened. Stop pretending I will let you just assume.

    “And the song + Roshi and company talking continues perfectly in real-time to indicate no extra time has passed.”

    What in the world are you talking about. How does Roshi and company talking away from the camera on beerus and Goku give us scale for Beerus and Goku?

    @Mea

    “So is being told that Raziel’s strength is greater in this life than it was in the one before.”

    An actual character said that. If you can get me a character in the games saying they cannot drink blood unless their target is stunned or incapacitated ill give you a little more credit.

    “Except I’m not trying to assert anything”

    Good then lets drop all this Kain has to incapacitate rubbish..

    “It says it right in the manual. ”

    Naturally, so is all the gameplay and player related stuff is in the manuels.

    “The manual does say Kain has to”

    No, it simply does not.

    ” The difference is that with the manual”

    So the difference is your trying to use gameplay mechanics to determine canon…good job..

    ” In fact, that’s testable”

    It does not matter. I am trying to teach you some literacy skills. I can say, regardless of whether I test it or not that I go for a job when its sunny. That does not simply assume that I cannot do so under any other circumstances. It just gives us one circumstance when I do.

    “e, Kain needs to make his enemy vulnerable.”

    Even if you got to re-write the manuels to actually say “he has to”, nobody has a base resistance against having telekinesis draining your blood away from you so…..anyone is vulnerable unless they do.

    So your point is moot.

    ” is ridiculous. It really is.”

    No really, it is pretty obvious to me. You bring up absurdities like this, your calcs have changed like the wind ever since the popular support was for downplaying kain and have been getting more absurd etc.

  15. Friendlysociopath September 12, 2015 at 5:21 pm -      #1015

    I do not know, because when Kain had his heart actually torn out he did not have that much blood at all.

    Amount of blood is insignificant, only how it acts when it exits the body.

    How does Roshi and company talking away from the camera on beerus and Goku give us scale for Beerus and Goku?

    Beerus and Goku fade from view, Roshi and company talk about how they can’t see them anymore.
    Camera cuts to Goku and Beerus already fighting in space.
    The time where we cannot see Goku and Beerus is 10 seconds.
    That was the longest it could’ve taken them to get that far.

    If you think otherwise, you’re welcome to prove it took them less than 10 seconds to reach that height.

  16. Mea quidem sententia September 12, 2015 at 5:50 pm -      #1016

    @Friendlysociopath
    Don’t waste your time. He’ll ignore evidence when it doesn’t favor his point of view.

  17. Ninja Lowk September 12, 2015 at 6:29 pm -      #1017

    Has anyone shown any Gohan feats? I found this thing.
    youtu.be/Qk2oRCFzf9g
    He catches bullets with one hand at close range. And in Revival of F he speedblitzed a group of people so fast even seemed to be standing still.

  18. Mea quidem sententia September 12, 2015 at 8:51 pm -      #1018

    @Ninja Lowk
    It wouldn’t matter. Kitten Lord will ignore it.

  19. Soulerous September 12, 2015 at 9:21 pm -      #1019

    Well if we are using real scientific energy and are not making things up because apparently you do not like a non scientific approach what massless energy moves people without contact or physical means?
    -I said it’s possible for energy to move without a physical body, and that carrying more power than known types of energy doesn’t break any laws of physics. So if you’re contesting that, please cite which law you think it violates.
    ~
    You say that yet it says;
    -It says pulling objects with light, in the style of sci-fi tractor beams, is theoretically possible. By the way, “theoretically possible” means it doesn’t contradict physics (unlike things coming from nowhere, which does). The part that you’re supposed to focus on is “It is a well-known fact that part of the light illuminating an object bounces back and the recoil pushes the object away.”
    ~
    Remember, you said: “And there is nothing in our science that travels as a massless wave yet can move objects.” This is indeed wrong. I’ve shown you twice now, first with my sources that light carries kinetic energy and now with this last article. I’ll show you a little more.
    ~
    “Some answers from scientists: “A single newton of thrust requires 300 MW of light-power.” (Source)
    ~
    “It’s actually photons providing the pressure. When you look at pictures of stellar nurseries, we have lots of really bright young stars. You see these clouds that have been hollowed out because of that radiation pressure just pushing the matter away.” (Source)
    ~
    You can read all about the effects of radiation pressure on Wikipedia. I especially love that bit in the second paragraph about how the radiation pressure of the sun influenced the Viking craft’s path by a factor of 15,000 kilometers.
    ~
    And under our physics you cannot move objects with the mind.
    -How do you think you typed those words? We can move our bodies with our minds. With technology we can also move machines. Our ability to do this depends on the electrical impulses from our thoughts transmitting to other physical locations (another part of our body, a computer) and initiating a reaction. Our minds have energy. So does Kain’s, because it can do something that requires energy. The difference is Kain does not need a physical object through which to transmit that energy because he’s not using electricity. He can affect things from afar. He is much more advanced than humans in this regard. Again, this does not violate physics.
    ~
    Speaking of fictitious explanations why do you think I should listen to yours on the nature of TK?
    -The universe has certain rules. Processes that happen within it obey those rules. Telekinesis is the same unless you provide proof that it does not follow the rules, which you do not have. So without breaking the rules, you really have no choice on the matter.
    ~
    without physical means implies this yes….everything in a physical universe being physical means in some way or another.
    -How many times will you make this same mistake, Kitten Lord? That’s one definition; you can’t favor it over all the others. I already showed 3/4 of these:
    ~
    “The supposed inducement of movement of an object by mental or spiritual power.” (Source)
    ~
    “The production of motion in a body, apparently without the use of material force.” (Same place.)
    ~
    “Movement of or motion in an object, animate or inanimate, produced without contact with the body producing the motion.” (Source)
    ~
    “The ability to move and manipulate an object with the power of one’s mind.” (Same place.)
    ~
    None of these definitions nullify physics.
    www.logicallyfallacious.com/index.php/logical-fallacies/66-cherry-picking
    ~
    It just means clearly the rules are of no relevance to the site anymore.
    -Nope. The rules are to be followed. You can follow them or you can forfeit. Those are your choices.
    ~
    People can bash, flame and regurgitate fallacies without reproach apparently, disappointing.
    -The commenting rules are separate from the debating rules. I’m sorry if the flaming and bashing bothers you, but if you had chosen to debate differently it wouldn’t have happened. Making mistakes is not against the rules either; fallacies simply can’t be accepted. That doesn’t mean you’ve broken the rules if you make a poor argument.
    ~
    His mind is his conciousness sure but when you say “energy comes from Kain and to the object” it is almost like your speaking of phyiscal processes and transfers, not a non phyiscal mind.
    -If you want to make a claim about Kain’s mind, go ahead. What I’m saying is that it uses energy to accomplish something, because anything that accomplishes something, in fact, uses energy.
    ~
    Objects have energy as I pointed out. So the required energy is already at the point of origin
    -Objects at rest have potential energy. This does not make them move. Objects at rest remain at rest unless acted upon by an outside force. You are familiar with that, I hope. The requirement for Kain’s telekinesis to work is not for objects to have potential energy, nor thermal energy. It is for Kain to initiate a transfer of energy, and thus motion, which is only possible if something traverses the distance from Kain to his target. If that doesn’t happen, the object has no reason to move because it is not acted upon by an outside force. Thinking about something does not make it move unless there is a connection.
    ~
    If I will my basketball to roll across the floor, it will not do so because the electrical impulses from my brain cannot reach it, nor would they have enough power if they did. I can bend my fingers, but if one was severed, I wouldn’t be able to move it because my energy would not be able to reach it and trigger the muscles. However, if my mind used a type of energy that could travel free of my body and had greater power, I would be able to perform both actions. But only if the energy traveled to my basketball or finger. If it didn’t, nothing would be acting upon them.
    ~
    Consciousness is not plottable in space so this comment is moot.
    -Consciousness meaning mind, not the state of being aware.
    ~
    This would be contact from Kain to the target, ergo not telekeinsis.
    -No cherry-picking, please. Telekinesis uses energy.
    ~
    The only reason it needs under science to move is that it has kinetic energy. Something does not have to travel “from” Kain to the target for it to get kinetic energy.
    -Yes, something does have to travel from Kain to the target for it to get kinetic energy. Something must impart momentum to it. “Kinetic energy is energy that comes from motion. In other words, objects that are moving have something that is referred to as kinetic energy. Since kinetic energy is based on motion, it is always a positive value. If it is not in motion, the kinetic energy of that object is zero.” (Source)
    ~
    then you fall down flat when you chuck in “travel” and “distance” which is not necessary.
    -It is necessary. What do you think the alternative is? You keep saying nothing has to traverse the distance, but you have yet to provide any alternative way for something to affect something else without that. And I’ll tell you now: You won’t be able to. There’s only one way without violating causality.
    ~
    How it gains this is unknown beyond the facts we have, which is Kain wills it to move using only his mind.
    -It can only gain it by being acted upon by some force. It cannot gain it by sitting there and nothing happening. When Kain uses his mind, his mind uses energy.
    ~
    I must say debating with you can be more disapointing than debating with most Soulerous.
    -Naturally. I would expect being corrected over and over to be disappointing.
    ~
    then it should have some effect on the environment as it passes.
    -No it shouldn’t. I gave examples of energy passing through things without affecting them. You’re claiming that TK energy functions a certain way; why should I believe you? Why should it affect things Kain doesn’t want it to affect?
    ~
    does not damage to the mans chest and clothing until its pulled out.
    -And? Exactly why do you think it should? If Kain has control over it, he can make it go through whatever he wants. He only has to apply it to what he’s trying to move.
    ~
    If energy is everywhere then nothing has to travel to manipulate said energy.
    -Great. I’ll apply that to other areas.
    “If rocks are everywhere, nothing has to travel to manipulate them.”
    “If sheep are everywhere, nothing has to travel to herd them.”
    ~
    It doesn’t work. Energy is everywhere. Different types. And it continues in natural processes until something changes. Light keeps traveling; gravity keeps pulling; sheep keep wandering. A rock will stay on the ground. It has potential energy, but it’s not moving. Kain has to affect it somehow. He can do so by physically touching it, which imparts a force. Or he can do so by sending the force from a distance. He cannot make the rock move by not doing anything. That is the opposite of logic.

  20. Soulerous September 12, 2015 at 9:24 pm -      #1020

    D’you want to see something hilarious, Mea?
    ~
    I dont think Ramkin will concede at this point even if the obvious is that soul exists. Too stubborn, hence why I think were being dragged along pointlessly to something already obvious for the sake of someones pride.
    -Kitten Lord, No More Blood for the Blood God, comment #271.

  21. Ninja Lowk September 13, 2015 at 1:46 am -      #1021

    “It wouldn’t matter. Kitten Lord will ignore it.”

    Meh, still someone’s at least got to show Gohan some love. He’s like the only other person to actually save earth besides Goku. That’s a hard thing to do considering he steals the show harder then Superman and Batman in the Justice League.
    youtu.be/Ftc4AOfmAHY?t=4m28s
    here’s the other speed feat @4:28 to 5:02

  22. ptaine September 14, 2015 at 9:01 am -      #1022

    “It affects them but is not one, so you cannot measure it using distance. It affects physical objects with non physical means.”
    .
    Like I’ve been saying we are interpreting what nonphysical means differently.
    .
    Physical: 1 a : of or relating to natural science b (1) : of or relating to physics (2) : characterized or produced by the forces and operations of physics
    .
    2 a : having material existence : perceptible especially through the senses and subject to the laws of nature b : of or relating to material things.
    .
    You are interpreting nonphysical to mean: not related to or characterized by physics. I’m interpreting nonphysical to mean: not having a material existence. As in not a tangible, physical object. Guess what adhereing to one definition over another is? Equivocation. On top of Cherry Picking. Guess who thinks both interpretations are possible? Me. Guess who doesn’t? You. Can you guess why that’s important?
    .
    “Well clearly it can because that is what the manuel says. It specifcally says Kain uses not only his mind, but ONLY his mind.”
    .
    Right, and you are interpreting that to mean something I’m not. If you are interpreting that to mean the mind is the medium then Defiance contradicts that because not one times does it say that Kain and Raziel use only their mind to affect objects at a distance. It says they use telekinetic force:
    .
    “Right so nothing in our science, e.g. nothing non fictional.”
    .
    You said it was impossible in our physics. I just explained why it’s not. Repeating yourself again doesn’t make you any more correct. The force itself isn’t a known one using our physics, so what? That doesn’t nullify the use of our physics for the rest.
    .
    “Specifically a telekinetic kind of force, so a non physical, non contact based one. You know, something where distance has no value.”
    .
    See that definition up there ——^ I just described why simply saying nonphysical doesn’t mean anything when that force is being applied over a distance. It isn’t a tangible object, that’s what we agree on. Beyond that I see no reason why distance wouldn’t apply.
    .
    “Where does it say this outside of the gameplay context?”
    .
    Where it says energy isn’t simply a gameplay context. The bar is, that is it. But since I know you are not going to accept that, you remember that part where it says that Kain and Raziel use telekinetic force is a defintion of TK for Legacy of Kain. Force applied at a distance is work, which is all energy is. The ability of a system to do work.
    .
    “Not really, we know a possible interpretation that the force referred to applies kinetic energy. But not that it does.”
    .
    Which is the point. The fact that a possible interpretation exists shows why you have to prove what you are saying is correct. You’ve literally just admitted you’re wrong.
    .
    “I do not give a damn about other universes. Their not this universe or LoK’s.”
    .
    I know you don’t. I’m explaining to you why you should care though. Those universes don’t simply state that their TK is limited by distance, they’re limited by distance because we use our physics to describe them UNLESS THEY EXPLICITLY STATE THEY DON’T USE OUR PHYSICS!. Which is why this is wrong:
    .
    “Of course not, unless that universe says otherwise. Then in that universe it may be limited.
    .
    It’s opposite actually the opposite. TK is limited by distance unless the universe says otherwise.
    .
    “Not sure you have any idea what your talking about any more. The function when Kain launches people around is to launch people around…. How is this comment even relevant to the discussion?”
    .
    You are arguing that Raziel’s use of TK is limited by distance, Kain’s use of a specific type of TK is limited by distance, BUT Kain’s use of another type of TK is not limited by distance.
    .
    The evidence shows that TK functions the same no matter the effect, so…….the one you are saying isn’t limited by distance would still be limited by distance.

  23. Kitten Lord September 17, 2015 at 7:20 am -      #1023

    @Mea

    “Don’t waste your time. He’ll ignore evidence when it doesn’t favor his point of view.”

    Well waddaya know! my favorite black pot!

    @Friendly

    “If you think otherwise, you’re welcome to prove it took them less than 10 seconds to reach that height.”

    I can no more prove they took more or less than 10 seconds than you can prove it took about that time. Since we do not see the characters and have no time frame for the scene change.

    @Lowk


    “He catches bullets with one hand at close range”


    I would say this is less impressive than doing it at longer ranges. If your hand is only a foot or so away from the barrel of course your going to catch bullets….

    “here’s the other speed feat @4:28 to 5:02”

    Not sure this is quantifiable and seems useless. The characters despite apparently not moving still move their heads and open their mouths to shout so all it tells us is the force imparted on them when Gohan hits them is less than the force required to launch a human body. But enough to hurt them and make them yelp.

    @Soul

    “I said it’s possible for energy to move without a physical body”

    That has nothing to do with what I was asking you. Do not try and dodge the question, I am asking you what massless energy sources in science can launch people around.

    ” I’ll show you a little more.”

    I read all your sources, the first one seems to be a guy discussing science fiction works. I have no idea if anything stated there is actually scientific or if their just discussing a fiction.

    I have no idea what your quote means, what the hell is light power?

    ” how the radiation pressure of the sun influenced the Viking craft’s path by a factor of 15,000 kilometers.”

    Which does not really mean anything unless we know all the factors and forces on the craft. Something moving in space is different to the vacuum Kain moves stuff in.

    “We can move our bodies with our minds. ”

    Kind of, our limbs and what not can move without us actually considering it. The brain can work on impulse even but we cannot move other people using only our minds.

    ” So does Kain’s”

    Right but kains uses telekinesis to move objects. You know, than scientfici, non physical phenomenon.

    “Telekinesis is the same unless you provide proof that it does not follow the rules,”

    Sorry to burst your bubble but telekinesis is not under the rules of science because its a fictitious, supernatural ability. Under the rules of science even energy has to make contact between two points. Radiation pressure does not affect something, light does not affect something without the wave making contact with the object.

    “That’s one definition; you can’t favor it over all the others. I already showed 3/4 of these:”

    Yet you seem to think you can favor a definition that suits you.

    “None of these definitions nullify physics.”

    False., the first one talks about spiritual power. The second one talks about material power, what allows objects to move without material force as said in your second definition?

    “-Nope. The rules are to be followed.”

    Yet I am not sure many people do.

    “. I’m sorry if the flaming and bashing bothers you,”

    It is more the fact that breaking the rules is ignored on this site. Oh well.

    “This does not make them move.”

    No this is why I said turning potential energy into kinetic energy.

    “which is only possible if something traverses the distance from Kain to his target.”

    Again, this is your assumption. The only requirement in physics is that the energy, potential energy lets say gets pushed into action.

    “If I will my basketball to roll across the floor, it will not do so because”

    Because it has no connection to your impulses. If you “will” something to happen is does not, yet Kain clearly does.

    “, if my mind used a type of energy ”

    Same thing if your mind accelerated the energy in the objects or energy around objects t move it.

    “Something must impart momentum to it.”

    Like I said already the body already has energy, using that could cause the object ot move, thus it now has kinetic energy.,

    “You keep saying nothing has to traverse the distance, ”

    It has yet to be proven to be the case.

    ” have yet to provide any alternative way for something to affect something else without that. A”

    Supernatural powers.

    “-Naturally. I would expect being corrected over and over to be disappointing.”

    I think its more the colossal reaching. It seems you were all upset about energy not meaning Kain has some sort of short range or w/e that can be assumed. All known massless energies travel great distances and to be powerful enough to move objects like Kain does, even by your logic the energy has to be ridiculously powerful…

    Meaning the range of kains TK assuming range was a factor is even by your interpretation lightyears.

    It is disappointing that you found something interesting to discuss and then collapsed when you try to attribute distance being a factor.

    “No it shouldn’t. I gave examples of energy passing through things without affecting them. ”

    Yeah small amounts of energy. Yet apparently the same sort of energy, radiation for example can move objects under circumstances.

    The same energy that CAN move a physical body or shatter one, also travels according to your poor logic through other physical objects without moving them at all.

    “Exactly why do you think it should?”

    I think it should if energy is being used the same way you think it is. If you think Kain is outputting enough energy between himself and the target to move a physical object, then surely objects between him and the target hit by said energy should also move or break? why should this not be the case?

    ” but it’s not moving. ”

    And it has kinetic energy when it is moving. Kain is merely making it move, therefore it now has kinetic energy.

    Everything has energy soul, the type is just based on what the object is doing at the time.

    ” He cannot make the rock move by not doing anything. That is the opposite of logic.”

    You would know all about the opposite of logic but I never said Kain does nothing….in fact Kain “wills” as I have maintained and an object moves. That is all…

    @Ptaine

    “not having a material existence.”

    This interpretation also covers my argument as well though. What do you think the difference is between the two interpretations?

    “If you are interpreting that to mean the mind is the medium then Defiance contradicts that because”

    This is a daft statement because the Defiance manuel says nothing against it at all. Telekiensis is the movement of objects with the mind and Kain also uses only his mind.

    “That doesn’t nullify the use of our physics for the rest.”

    What do you mean for the rest? the rest of what? There is no massless energy in physics that can travel from a point of origin, through other physical objects without even affecting them and then somehow affect physical objects on the other side…

    If I am wrong point out what does this? nothing in science i would wager.

    “Beyond that”

    What do you mean “beyond that”, if it is not a physical object then the thing itself cannot be measured using distance.

    “But since I know you are not going to accept that”

    No, because its under gameplay mechanics. Nobody should.

    ” The ability of a system to do work”

    We have very little knowledge of the “system” your talking about beyond Kain just wills things to move.

    ” Those universes don’t simply state that their TK is limited by distance”

    Then you should not assume they are.

    “UNLESS THEY EXPLICITLY STATE THEY DON’T USE OUR PHYSICS!. ”

    This is also wrong. Something does not have to explicitly stated for an exception to be there. If you check the rules section, the last rule says just the absence of sonic booms in supersonic beings proves there are no sonic boombs…

    To connect that to legacy of Kain. The absence of Kain making contact or using physical means proves that absence…

    “You are arguing that Raziel’s use of TK is limited by distance”

    Its more I am argueing Raziels use travels. Because we can see it travelling. He is projecting a ball of force, and we can see it move.

    Kains TK seems to originate some form of movement at the target point without travelling. Hence why he can make objects like men move or indeed their blood move without having to break their skin.

    Both you and Soul are probably setting a record for the mother of all useless deadlocks in a thread which regardless of this conversation or its result was ended at my super post at #258 page 3, no new information has changed the proven fact that Kain wins this mostly through TK. And so should be awarded.

  24. ptaine September 17, 2015 at 1:24 pm -      #1024

    “This interpretation also covers my argument as well though. What do you think the difference is between the two interpretations?”
    .
    Hmmmmm, As in not a tangible, physical object. Your continued cherry picking is further leading to your lack of comprehension, I literally explained what I think the difference is in one sentence, directly after the part you quoted of me.
    .
    This leads to my loquaciousness, since you apparently lack the ability to understand simple sentences that explicitly state what I mean, I will further expound upon what I mean, to which you ignore everything I say and tell me that I talk to much. This would be a clever strategy if it wasn’t so transparent, or the fact that you’ve been called on it every time you do it since you’ve joined this site. So, you should probably stop it because it isn’t working for you.
    .
    “This is a daft statement because the Defiance manuel says nothing against it at all. Telekiensis is the movement of objects with the mind and Kain also uses only his mind.”
    .
    If you are looking for a specific sentence saying, “The mind is not the medium TK functions under,” then, yes, you’re correct, the Defiance manual doesn’t say that. However, it does say that Kain and Raziel use Telekinetic force, which as I’ve told you several times is how I’m interpreting the medium…..Kain applies telekinetic force by projecting energy from himself to the target using his mind. That’s why I don’t ascribe to the theory that the Blood Omen 2 manual shows that the mind is the medium that TK functions with.
    .
    “What do you mean for the rest? the rest of what?”
    .
    Like I’ve said already, Kain applies Telekinetic Force over a distance, this means he does work, which means that there is energy transfer from the mind/Kain system to the object in some fashion. Because this is a possibility, and one that shows why distance is a factor, this is a legitimate interpretation of the evidence we’ve been given because there is literally not one thing that contradicts this besides your own interpretation. Since your interpretation is backed by the same evidence I’m looking at, your interpretation is not enough to discredit mine. That’s because I don’t have Burden of Proof to show that Kain can TK at 100 meters. You do. Since an alternative interpretation exists you need to actually supply more evidence.
    .
    Just so we’re clear, I already know this evidence doesn’t exist which is why I’m “deadlocking” this thread right now. Like I said before, I already know you’re wrong, and I know that you won’t admit it, so here we are.
    .
    “What do you mean “beyond that”, if it is not a physical object then the thing itself cannot be measured using distance.”
    .
    Like I asked you before with sound, sound is not a tangible physical object. I can’t hold sound in my hands, so the interpretation of Telekinesis by “nonphysical” means boils down to how you interpret what nonphysical means: Physical: of or relating to things perceived through the senses as opposed to the mind; tangible or concrete That is how I’m interpreting it. So Telekinesis functions through the nonphysical means of energy being transferred from Kain to the target, and applying the Telekinetic Force.
    .
    This is an interpretation using definitions, manuals, visual evidence, and goddamn fucking common sense. You are never, ever going to convince me that your interpretation of the nonphysical medium Telekinesis functions under is the mind. The mind is not a physical, tangible object it can’t interact with distance, and since it’s a fiction Telekinesis can function however it wants so it can function at whatever distance.
    .
    “No, because its under gameplay mechanics. Nobody should.”
    .
    Not at all, the gameplay mechanic is the bar, and collecting little balls of energy to fill that bar. The fact that there is energy at all is how it literally functions.
    .
    By the way. Kain dematerializing into bats is a gameplay mechanic as well. Hypocrisy much?
    .
    “We have very little knowledge of the “system” your talking about beyond Kain just wills things to move.”
    .
    Indeed, so to assume that Telekinesis is not limited by distance is a hasty generalization:
    .
    26. Hasty generalization: This is an argument where someone takes an insufficient amount of evidence and attempts to form a conclusion from it, while ignoring or not being aware of contradictory evidence You just proved yourself wrong again.
    .
    You just proved yourself wrong again, while furthering the point I’m making to you. And just so we’re clear to your obvious rebuttal, I’m not saying that Telekinesis is limited by distance ABSOLUTELY….I’m saying the possibility exists within the information we are given, so we shouldn’t just assume that Kain can TK beyond his shown ability. You’re the only one here that is assuming things ABSOLUTELY.
    .
    “To connect that to legacy of Kain. The absence of Kain making contact or using physical means proves that absence”
    .
    Except for that pesky interpretation that shows nonphysical meaning something you aren’t interpreting it as….
    .
    “Its more I am argueing Raziels use travels. Because we can see it travelling. He is projecting a ball of force, and we can see it move.”
    .
    Which is literally what I just said. You said before that we can’t see Kain’s TK traveling. I disagree 100% with this assertion because I showed lightning emitting from his hand, which indicates to me that it does. But, either way, you are saying that Raziel and Kains TK are different.
    .
    You’re wrong though, I showed information that explicitly shows that Telekinesis functions that exact same way for both Kain and Raziel. They both use Telekinetic force applied at a distance, so there is no reason to think that the effect changes how the cause functions.
    .
    You’re effectively arguing that because I can take a hose and fill a bucket at a distance, and I can knock a bucket off a shelf at a distance that the effect is applied differently. When it is literally water from a hose and subject to the same factors.
    .
    “Both you and Soul are probably setting a record for the mother of all useless deadlocks in a thread which regardless of this conversation or its result was ended at my super post at #258 page 3, no new information has changed the proven fact that Kain wins this mostly through TK. And so should be awarded.”
    .
    There was nothing provided beyond your own fanyon delusions in that post. Like I said, I don’t like DBZ and if you actually provided concrete evidence without fallacious reasoning, exaggerated interpretations of Kain, and extreme downplay of DBZ, I would agree with you.
    .
    This conversation now has nothing to do with the thread beyond your fallacious reasoning concerning TK. The legwork refuting your other points has already been done by others in this thread before I joined, and off and on throughout our discourse now.
    .
    As for “deadlocked” threads, you have awhile to reach the levels of the thread I was in that was most deadlocked…..Wheel of Time vs Sword of Truth, and I was among those that achieved victory for Wheel of Time doing what I’m doing now, and that’s advocating for proper debating protocol, which you are in severe violation of Kitten Lord. I doubt admin will award this thread, and if he does, it will be for DBZ not Kain, so really the most you can hope to achieve here is:
    .
    42. Argumentum ad nauseum: This is when someone keeps making a claim over and over again, but either does not provide actual evidence, or provides evidence which is later debunked, but keeps making the claim. Eventually (or so he hopes), his opponent will get tired of arguing and he can declare victory.
    .
    Your arguments from post 258 have been refuted already…..sorry. But hey, continue your quest for committing every single fallacy we have in the debating rules. I think you’re up to about 10 or 15 now….

  25. Soulerous September 17, 2015 at 1:44 pm -      #1025

    Supernatural powers.
    -You have yet to prove the ability works outside of physics.
    ~
    Sorry to burst your bubble but telekinesis is not under the rules of science because its a fictitious, supernatural ability.
    -Sorry to burst your bubble, but fictional abilities are not an exception to the rule and you’d better offer up proof or stop making this claim. Everything that happens, fictional or not, happens under the jurisdiction of normal logic and physics unless there is explicit proof that it does not.
    ~
    Something does not have to explicitly stated for an exception to be there. If you check the rules section, the last rule says just the absence of sonic booms in supersonic beings proves there are no sonic boombs…
    -I’m taking this from your response to Ptaine. It’s true that exceptions can be shown rather than being stated. The absence of a sonic boom proves the absence of a sonic boom. We would know the boom doesn’t occur if there is no loud noise or visual. This doesn’t help you because there is nothing that we know should be caused by telekinesis that does not happen; no exception is stated or shown. What Kain does is not at all impossible within physics, so there is no reason to think it works outside them.
    ~
    I am asking you what massless energy sources in science can launch people around.
    -I knew what you were asking me. And I said it’s possible for energy to move without a physical body, and that carrying more power than known types of energy doesn’t break any laws of physics. So if you’re contesting that, please cite which law you think it violates. I said this because I don’t need to show you any more examples. My point is already made.
    ~
    I have no idea what your quote means, what the hell is light power?
    -How much power the light transfers. Also known as radiant intensity.
    ~
    All known massless energies travel great distances
    -TK energy is not a known energy. It doesn’t travel in a radiant fashion that we know of. It’s just something Kain uses to move objects. It’s specific properties are unknown.
    ~
    I think it should if energy is being used the same way you think it is. If you think Kain is outputting enough energy between himself and the target to move a physical object, then surely objects between him and the target hit by said energy should also move or break? why should this not be the case?
    -You keep trying to apply the properties of electromagnetic energy, as a whole, to TK energy. You must not do that. I brought up EM to show that energy traveling without mass, as well as through it, is possible. We do not know the properties of TK energy, and you should stop imagining that I ever implied that it moves like radiation. It doesn’t. Not to our knowledge.
    ~
    Yet you seem to think you can favor a definition that suits you.
    -Nope. I’m not trying to use any specific definition beyond “moving things at a distance.”
    ~
    False., the first one talks about spiritual power. The second one talks about material power
    -Mental or spiritual power. Either or. Spiritual power isn’t necessarily outside of physics either. Moving something without material force means no material is moving the target. This is different from moving it without any force. So no, it’s not false; none of those definitions nullify physics. But if I were you, I’d accept the fact that you can’t cherry-pick a definition to prove telekinesis works outside of physics, which is the real point.
    ~
    The only requirement in physics is that the energy, potential energy lets say gets pushed into action.
    -That is exactly what cannot happen unless something causes it. Ergo, energy travels to the target. It’s not an assumption. That is how physics works: Nothing happens without a cause.
    ~
    Because it has no connection to your impulses. If you “will” something to happen is does not, yet Kain clearly does.
    -Exactly. And since we’re using physics like in every other debate, this means Kain’s power must reach the target as well.
    ~
    Like I said already the body already has energy, using that could cause the object ot move, thus it now has kinetic energy.,
    -Something has to cause it. Objects do not start moving of their own accord. So tell me how it’s possible for Kain to manipulate an object or it’s energy without using something to do so.
    ~
    I never said Kain does nothing….in fact Kain “wills” as I have maintained and an object moves.
    -You’re saying Kain does nothing within physics. Willing something to happen is no reason for it to happen. In Kain’s case, using his mind involves applying energy to affect change. He cannot make a rock move by not doing anything within physics. No, you still have nothing proving physics are irrelevant.
    ~
    Yet I am not sure many people do.
    -I’m quite sure that everyone follows the debating rules, which are the ones that must be followed in order to win a debate.
    ~
    It is disappointing that you
    -It’s disappointing that you keep making flippant remarks about how you’re right and I’m reaching.

  26. Amm0vamp1r3 September 17, 2015 at 1:52 pm -      #1026

    1,000+ comments Ho..Ly….Crap

  27. ptaine September 17, 2015 at 1:58 pm -      #1027

    “1,000+ comments Ho..Ly….Crap”
    .
    I’m really hoping that this thread gets to 5,000, and every post says exactly the same thing that was said from the beginning. It should be fun….

  28. Friendlysociopath September 17, 2015 at 3:08 pm -      #1028

    I can no more prove they took more or less than 10 seconds than you can prove it took about that time. Since we do not see the characters and have no time frame for the scene change.

    Actually, I do have proof for my claim:
    Other characters talking in the same time
    Music accompaniment that stays in time
    Similar feats of speed exist for both characters
    No reason to suspect otherwise yet presented

    So- what do you have?

    Muh Super Post

    Was full of fallacies and incorrect information- and as such is worth only slightly more than nothing.

  29. Kitten Lord September 17, 2015 at 3:34 pm -      #1029

    @Ptaine

    ” I literally explained what I think the difference!”

    No you just quoted two different definitions. But both of them definitions cover my interpretation. Whether its not physical due to physics itself or not material we come to the same conclusion.

    “you ignore everything I say and tell me that I talk to much. ”

    You do, you like to jabber and that jabber does not explain what your trying to say, you just somehow find a really long way of saying it.

    “However, it does say that Kain and Raziel use Telekinetic force”

    So what? Telekinetic meaning moving objects with the mind. Its simply doing what you like to do, saying the same thing only in different ways.

    “Like I’ve said already, Kain applies Telekinetic Force over a distance”

    This is a theory. The object he is moving is under “work”

    “. Because this is a possibility, and one that shows why distance is a factor, this is a legitimate interpretation of the evidence we’ve been given ”

    It is not, the evidence we have been given says mind is only a factor. Your adding the rest. The evidence we have been given means energy cannot be travelling from Kain because nothing in its path is being influenced, only the target itself that Kain wants to move.

    “, sound is not a tangible physical object. ”

    No you hear sound. But sound itself from a physical perspective is vibrating particles. You can measure those particles just like how you can measure how far the man Kain decides to throw travels after hes been made to fly.

    “Telekinesis functions through the nonphysical means of energy being transferred from Kain to the target, and applying the Telekinetic Force.”

    Only energy can be measured as something tangible. How else do you think we discover energy or measure it?

    “d collecting little balls of energy to fill that bar.”

    You do not even know what your talking about. I know you have not played the game but he does not collect little balls of energy to fill the bar. He collects fragments to make the bar bigger, said bar fills up quickly after a second or so.

    Its an infinitely replenishing resource. This is all in-game. The entire subject from the defiance manuel on TK runes is in-game hud and how the player manages it.

    “By the way. Kain dematerializing into bats is a gameplay mechanic as well. Hypocrisy much?”

    Kain dematerlizing is simply stated to be one of his powers.

    “to assume that Telekinesis is not limited by distance is a hasty generalization:”

    No because distance is not a relevant factor. Again your whole distance argument is a non sequitur, You have no evidence to cover your premise.

    “.I’m saying the possibility exists within the information we are given”

    Actually, according to the interpretation that concerns energy and science, no. To my interpretation, again no, distance is not even a factor.

    “l meaning something you aren’t interpreting it as….”

    It could mean either. He does not make contact in either way.

    ” because I showed lightning emitting from his hand, ”

    You showed his hand glowing. That is all. Freeze frame and post the still image of lightning going from Kain to his target.

    “They both use Telekinetic force”

    This is kind of true, but the difference, and a big one is Raziel creates orbs that despite moving quickly actually travel from him to the target and you can see them.

    Kain on the other hand, the only movement is his hand moving and the object he is willing to move.

    “There was nothing provided beyond”

    beyond about 20-30+ sources, yeah…

    “, I would agree with you.”

    I have no assurance of that. Considering you have spent god knows how long deadlocking this with something as petty as minor interpretations on words just to bog down the thread I doubt it.

    “The legwork refuting your other points has already been done”

    oh really? what post numbers actually refuted anything?

    ” I doubt admin will award this thread, and if he does, it will be for DBZ not Kain, so really the most you can hope to achieve here is:”

    If he reads the arguments and does not get buried under fans Kain would get the award. There is literally nothing more in this thread than your deadlock at this stage.

    ” But hey, continue your quest for committing every single fallacy we have in the debating rules. ”

    If I wanted to do that I would look up an online guide created by professor ptaine who is the most proficient at fallacy quests.

    @Soul

    “You have yet to prove the ability works outside of physics.”

    1- Objects move with thought…..never in science

    2- Objects move without physical means….not in science

    3-Objects moved using only the mind…..not in science

    4- Objects shattering from inside forces in the body that somehow bypassed the outer body? not in science

    5- Bodiless energy shattering objects on a whim, Not in science

    Several definitions of TK outline it as spiritual, supernatural and non scientific. Infact the only definition you can reach with (and it is just that) could be an outlier or just you interpreting it the way you want to.

    ” Everything that happens, fictional or not”

    Supernatrual powers are by definition not aligned to science and your bastardizing the use of that rule.

    “I knew what you were asking me”

    So answer it then….stop re-spamming the same old mumbo jumbo that is meaningless. I do not care what laws you think are in play or are not, I want you to show me under the laws of physics those energy sources capable of launching people around. Saying light gives us a minuscule thrust not even noticeable by gravity is not useful.

    Your posts on energy and science are one red herring after another.

    “TK energy is not a known energy”

    But it is a massless one. Also if its not a known, and is therefore a fictional energy you cannot start applying our physics to it willy nilly. That is not scientific or logical.

    It is either scientfiic and under our rules, in which case its a massless wave, the only known energy “type” that could act anything like Kain uses according to your reaching interpretation or its my interpretation that makes sense, its just a supernatural power which is covered by most definitions and common logic.

    “We do not know the properties of TK energy,”

    We know that if it is travelling with the energy to move objects like your trying to claim it “should” be breaking through objects. If you want to play the “we do not know” game then we are back to square one.

    “I’m not trying to use any specific definition”

    Yes you are, you keep quoting those that only imply its not scientific nature despite there being several, even in the same sources that say it is non scientific, spiritual or magical.

    “Spiritual power isn’t necessarily outside of physics either.”

    Explain this considering the spirit, the soul and what not is not studied/observed under science.

    ” Moving something without material force means no material is moving the target. ”

    How is that possible under physics? Even light as has been found over the last few posts can be measured in accordance with mass, particles and can output tangible forces apparently so how is that not material?

    ” unless something causes it.”

    We know the cause. Its Kains “will”, him wanting it to happen.

    “without using something to do so.”


    He is using his mind, that is covered by the source material.

    “Willing something to happen is no reason for it to happen.”

    Yet it does! The glory of fiction.

    “-I’m quite sure that everyone follows the debating rules, which are the ones that must be followed in order to win a debate.”

    I am not so sure. And I do not think everyone is even trying to win a debate, some people are just trying to troll.

    “how you’re right and I’m reaching.”

    It is not just a remark. I am hoping by pointing out the pointless nature of your stance and of your reaching that you may actually try to consider an interesting argument for how DBZ does not get completely ripped apart;

    postimg.org/image/u3goixrk5/

    @Ptaine

    “I’m really hoping that this thread gets to 5,000, and every post says exactly the same thing that was said from the beginning. It should be fun….”

    Not likely, even I can only contest with the ever growing pile of dead red herrings that are piling up on top of me.

    As I said in the Godzilla thread I will be puting all these debates on hold in November while I play Fallout 4. Course when I come back I may start it up again or leave the thread to die unless someone can actually bring something interesting to the thread or something that may have any chance of changing the facts I have oultined in ny super post on page 3 #258

    The DBZers are still facing someone who can kill them on a whim, is nigh indestructible to their attacks and as covered recently is just going to come back again like their more persistent foes in the series anyway.

    @Friendly

    “Actually, I do have proof for my claim:”

    Then why do you just go on and give me some interpretations instead of proof?

    ” incorrect information”

    What, dozens of sources from the actual series? So according to you the whole series is not correct…hmm funny old friendly! Why do you not rename yourself to funny sociopath? Your quite the comedian.

  30. Ninja Lowk September 17, 2015 at 5:32 pm -      #1030

    “I would say this is less impressive than doing it at longer ranges. If your hand is only a foot or so away from the barrel of course your going to catch bullets….”

    A human can barely react to a bullet from far away. Bullets move too fast for us to move our hands around open them, close them, repeat. Rapid rate of fire + speed of a bullet + spread = YF= Your Fucked. So, I highly doubt it. Unless your hand was directly in front of the barrel. In which case their would be no need to move.

    His hand wasn’t, so the bulletd spread out. Plus he isn’t just holding out his palm out like a mitt. He is grabbing them out of the air as they get close.
    If anything it more impressive because the short distance mean less time for the bullets to reach him. He also has less time to reposition his hand due to the high rate of fire sending multiple bullets per second.

  31. Ninja Lowk September 17, 2015 at 5:48 pm -      #1031

    “Not sure this is quantifiable and seems useless.”

    They were moving fast enough to speed through the forest like that seen from star wars. Gohan is capable of moving so fast they seemed to stop to him. He did it without a time slow, stop, or dimensional reaver like a certain somevampire. That was all speed. Kain doesn’t move the much faster. He’s got good RT but he isn’t much of a speedster.
    ===
    “The characters despite apparently not moving still move their heads and open their mouths to shout so all it tells us is the force imparted on them when Gohan hits them is less than the force required to launch a human body. But enough to hurt them and make them yelp.”

    It is noted that he is holding back trying to not kill them. Plus it looks like he is using pressure points to subdue them. Regardless, it wasn’t a strength feat. Gohan has a few other feats of fighting  stronger people then mooks.

  32. Karen Starr September 17, 2015 at 5:49 pm -      #1032

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wO5TnYaJ4o What everyone just needs to say and do.

  33. Jake_Uzumaki September 17, 2015 at 6:03 pm -      #1033

    yeah agreed, we need to let this die.

  34. Ninja Lowk September 17, 2015 at 6:37 pm -      #1034

    Wait, I got one more thing.
    Using the the velocity for a 9mm glock, 950 ft/s(slowest handgun bullet velocity I could find, highest was 1350), It would take 2.11 milliseconds for the bullets to reach Gohan from at least 2 feet away.

    However the gun that the man is firing appears to be a sterling machine gun according to this
    www.militaryfactory.com/smallarms/detail.asp?smallarms_id=381
    we are looking at either 970 ft/s, which would be 2.06 millieseconds. 1250 ft/s would take 1.6 milliseconds. Given that it wasn’t silenced it wouldn’t be the first one.
    Either way, Gohan snatched them out the air like it was nothing.

  35. Ninja Lowk September 17, 2015 at 8:22 pm -      #1035

    Oh yeah, Forgot, Raditz catching a bullet
    youtu.be/F1dsL3LvUek

  36. hellboy147 September 17, 2015 at 10:12 pm -      #1036

    “The DBZers are still facing someone who can kill them on a whim, is nigh indestructible to their attacks and as covered recently is just going to come back again like their more persistent foes in the series anyway.”
    _

    www.mcbroom.biz/Public/Icons/Nuclear_Facepalm.jpg

  37. Friendlysociopath September 17, 2015 at 10:43 pm -      #1037

    Kitten has issues with bullets for some reason. I think a bullet may have done his family wrong in the past or something- there’s certainly no logical reason to how he perceives them.

    But yeah, leave him alone; if Ptaine and Soul want to keep headbutting the brick wall of trolldom they’re welcome to. Unless Kitten posts some new kind of stupid I’ve had my share of circle-jerk with him.
    So long as Kain never gets an award he doesn’t deserve- I consider this my victory- no matter how long it goes on.

  38. CH1C4N0444 is allergic to bullets September 17, 2015 at 10:59 pm -      #1038

    “Kitten has issues with bullets for some reason.”

    They have such a predictable trajectory, DUH! I mean, ignore the fact that you still have to be fast enough to intercept said predictable trajectory, it’s still predictable and therefore not good for a speed feat.

  39. Jake_Uzumaki September 17, 2015 at 11:20 pm -      #1039

    Soo….SSGSS Goku and Gold Frieza punches collided and the shockwave was felt all the way to Supreme Kai’s world

  40. Jake_Uzumaki September 17, 2015 at 11:39 pm -      #1040

    hmm yeah my bad seems it was just SSG Goku and Beerus, however the anime apparently didn’t show the same effect so not sure which is higher canon in regards to Super the show or manga

  41. Numinous One September 17, 2015 at 11:56 pm -      #1041

    Well if it’s gonna happen it’ll be in episode 13.
    IIRC the title is;
    The universe crumbles?! God of Destruction versus Super Saiyan God!”
    It was already calced as well, the low end was like a MegaFoe I think.
    God tiers showing god tier feats. No more glass cannon Dragonball.

  42. Jake_Uzumaki September 17, 2015 at 11:59 pm -      #1042

    Deathbattle would get so much hatemail…more than they already deserve, but then at least the Goku v Superman hatemail would be as justified as a lot of the rest. Don’t see that happening but would be so fucking hilarious.

  43. CH1C4N0444 is allergic to bullets September 18, 2015 at 12:00 am -      #1043

    “Well if it’s gonna happen it’ll be in episode 13.
    IIRC the title is;
    The universe crumbles?! God of Destruction versus Super Saiyan God!”
    It was already calced as well, the low end was like a MegaFoe I think.
    God tiers showing god tier feats. No more glass cannon Dragonball.”

    What? Where? How? Who? When? Why?

  44. Numinous One September 18, 2015 at 12:05 am -      #1044

    Um.

    “What”

    Colliding punches sending shockwaves throughout the galaxy and shaking the planets, also reaching planets in another dimension.

    “Where?”

    Starts at Earth and then…. eveywhere.

    “How?”

    Punching super dooper hard.

    “Who?”

    Goku and Beerus.

    “When”

    Latest manga chapter.

    “Why?”

    Cuz dey angsty.

  45. Jake_Uzumaki September 18, 2015 at 12:13 am -      #1045

    well the punch from the scan happened scontent-dfw1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xtf1/t31.0-8/11999585_529714653843525_203873934397476908_o.jpg
    scontent-dfw1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xat1/t31.0-8/12000818_529714703843520_3398585417637665173_o.jpg
    though its quite possible the guy who posted the screen caps didn’t post the whole thing

  46. Numinous One September 18, 2015 at 12:17 am -      #1046

    Oh apparently there was a speed feat as well.
    Champa crossed half the universe in the time it took Kibito Kai to gather the Namekian dragonballs, using a 1 hour timeframe for a low end, Champa or GenderbendWhis are 54,072,183,806,646.55c.
    We’re still at the beginning of the series too.

    But this is all irrelevant cause of 100Tonnnnn TeeKayyyyy.

  47. CH1C4N0444 is allergic to bullets September 18, 2015 at 12:38 am -      #1047

    @NO ergh Numinus where’s the calc?

  48. CH1C4N0444 is allergic to bullets September 18, 2015 at 12:42 am -      #1048

    “well the punch from the scan happened”

    I still haven’t seen this scan, anyone wanna point me in the right direction? I just looked at the manga in Mangapanda, but didn’t see anything for it… :/
    =
    “Champa crossed half the universe in the time it took Kibito Kai to gather the Namekian dragonballs, using a 1 hour timeframe for a low end, Champa or GenderbendWhis are 54,072,183,806,646.55c.
    We’re still at the beginning of the series too.”

    How do you know they didn’t teleport? We didn’t see them fly there, so AFAWK they just teleported there.

  49. Jake_Uzumaki September 18, 2015 at 12:43 am -      #1049

    well I found the full untranslated chapter if you’d like to take a look at it for yourself, honestly it didn’t look like there’ll be much for there to be taken from the feat when its translated either.

  50. CH1C4N0444 is allergic to bullets September 18, 2015 at 12:46 am -      #1050

    @Jake Yea, wouldn’t mind seeing it.

    Side note, I feel like DBS is ruining the movies it came from(i.e. BotG arc should’ve been left alone and the movie was 1,000,000x better than the arc…)

  51. Jake_Uzumaki September 18, 2015 at 12:49 am -      #1051

    the scan in question www.mangakaka.com/wp-content/manga/14252/4/410.jpg

    the whole manga
    www.mangakaka.com/Dragon_Ball_Super/4/10/

    Agreed overall however the ascendance scene for Goku was damned awesome in Super. Also 100% confirmed Super Saiyan Pan

  52. CH1C4N0444 is allergic to bullets September 18, 2015 at 12:51 am -      #1052

    @Jake Thanks! Huh, looks interesting.
    =
    “Agreed overall however the ascendance scene for Goku was damned awesome in Super. ”

    Really? I thought it was too drawn out and overdramatized IMO. I can see the appeal though. Overall, the series it just seems over dramatic for no other reason than to add filler to the series and just to make sure they hit that 22 minute mark… Which is stupid…
    =
    Wish I could draw and animate…I’d make a fucking badass series of shit! Slow mo fights, slow mo fights everywhere!

  53. Jake_Uzumaki September 18, 2015 at 12:59 am -      #1053

    Yeah Champa’s already appeared in the manga though not in the series. Like I said I have no idea how the canon works with this.

    It was a bit longer than needed, but I thought it was pretty cool. Maybe the Super Saiyan Pan thing just really hyped me.

  54. CH1C4N0444 is allergic to bullets September 18, 2015 at 1:02 am -      #1054

    “Yeah Champa’s already appeared in the manga though not in the series. Like I said I have no idea how the canon works with this.”

    Me neither, personally I think the manga’s a bit better. I rather them just skip arcs gone over in the movies as opposed to redoing them…
    =
    “It was a bit longer than needed, but I thought it was pretty cool. Maybe the Super Saiyan Pan thing just really hyped me.”

    Could’ve been.

    O, just realized another reason why it bothered me, Videl went Super Saiyan…dumb….

  55. Friendlysociopath September 18, 2015 at 1:22 am -      #1055

    MegaFoe

    Alright, someone explain to me what that is- please?

    Deathbattle would get so much hatemail

    At times they kind of deserve it, especially when one of the staff actually said something like,
    “We don’t have to count Super- cause it happens before Battle of the Gods.”

    Could’ve just said,
    “We can’t calculate what doesn’t exist yet”
    but noooooo, had to try and make themselves out to be above that- and look what happens- DB Super goes and surpasses virtually every limit it had before it was aired/written.

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=HsqmU3v0hVA

  56. CH1C4N0444 is allergic to bullets September 18, 2015 at 1:25 am -      #1056

    “Alright, someone explain to me what that is- please?”

    A Foe is a unit of measurement used to measure supernovas. 1 Foe=1*10^44 Joules.

    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foe_(unit)

    So, it was calced to be about 1,000,000 supernovas low end.

  57. Soulerous September 18, 2015 at 7:39 am -      #1057

    Objects move with thought…..never in science
    -Telekinesis does not move objects with thought alone. You have not proven that to be the case. Thought directs energy, so objects moving with thought does, in fact, happen in science.
    ~
    Objects move without physical means….not in science
    -Telekinesis moves things without the contact of another material object. Not without any physical means whatsoever. You have not proven this.
    ~
    Objects moved using only the mind…..not in science
    -Using the mind to move something means either the mind directs energy or the mind includes energy as part of it’s makeup. It doesn’t mean physics are ignored, because there are possible interpretations where physics are not ignored. “Only the mind” is not valid proof for your claim when the mind has not been defined as having no energy. Plus, I can say I jump with only one leg, but I’m still using energy.
    ~
    Objects shattering from inside forces in the body that somehow bypassed the outer body? not in science
    -It does not break any rules of physics, so no, you can’t say that. Energy bypasses matter all the time, and it interacts with different types of matter differently. Light is absorbed by some colors, reflected by others, and passes through translucent material. Gravitational radiation pulls large objects more than small ones. Magnetic energy affects certain materials more than others. And science is still researching new types of energy and matter. Tk energy can pass through what Kain wants with little to no effect and then pull or push his target. There is nothing about this that is impossible, and making up arbitrary rules of physics, which is what you’re doing, isn’t a valid tactic.
    ~
    We know that if it is travelling with the energy to move objects like your trying to claim it “should” be breaking through objects.
    -That’s your speculation. Again, energy can pass through things with little to no effect and then effect things on the other side. Ever seen a paper clip pulled by a magnet on the other side of a piece of paper? The clip is affected while the paper is not. How about the other phenomenon I just mentioned? It is a true and proven fact that different types of energy interact with different types of matter, as well as each other, in different ways. Thus it’s true that going through someone’s flesh then applying force to the blood within is possible within physics.
    ~
    Bodiless energy shattering objects on a whim, Not in science
    -It is in science, actually. Gravitational energy breaks things all the time when they cannot bear their own weight. In black holes it crushes things.
    ~
    So answer it then….stop re-spamming the same old mumbo jumbo that is meaningless.
    -It isn’t meaningless, and I don’t need to answer it. I will, though.
    ~
    Saying light gives us a minuscule thrust not even noticeable by gravity is not useful.
    -There you go. Gravity. It’s a mass-less energy with power to move objects much greater than light. So what law did you think I was violating?
    ~
    Several definitions of TK outline it as spiritual, supernatural and non scientific.
    -Definitions that Legacy of Kain is never said to use.
    ~
    Infact the only definition you can reach with (and it is just that) could be an outlier or just you interpreting it the way you want to.
    -There are multiple definitions that do not support your interpretation.
    ~
    Yes you are, you keep quoting those that only imply its not scientific nature despite there being several, even in the same sources that say it is non scientific, spiritual or magical.
    -No, Kitten Lord. I’m quoting those definitions to show that you can’t cherry-pick the ones that favor your interpretation. I am not, myself, cherry-picking them to prove my interpretation because I’m not claiming that Legacy of Kain uses them, and my point does not rely on it. My point is you can’t say those specific ones are the right ones.
    ~
    Let’s use an analogy: We are told there’s an instrument on the other side of a door. We don’t know what kind. It could be a guitar, a cello, a piano, or any other kind of instrument. We both agree it makes sound. But you’re trying to say it’s a saxophone; I am saying “look, there’s all these other types of instruments, so we can’t act like there’s a saxophone in the room.” I am not favoring the other types of instruments, just pointing out why you can’t favor the one that defies physics.
    ~
    Supernatrual powers are by definition not aligned to science and your bastardizing the use of that rule.
    -1) Supernatural things are not, by definition, unaligned to science.
    2) Supernatural means either that the thing in question is not understood by science or that it’s beyond the laws of nature. Or means either one could be the case, not that they both are. Supernatural can also be used as a synonym for “great.”
    3) www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/supernatural
    4) Claiming I’m corrupting something is not a point. I’m literally using the rule as it is written. We use normal logic and physics until an exception is proven, and you have proven no exception.
    ~
    But it is a massless one.
    -And why would that mean you can attribute all the properties of electromagnetic energy, such as the way it moves, to it? If you’re not saying that I don’t know why you’d even bring this up.
    ~
    Also if its not a known, and is therefore a fictional energy you cannot start applying our physics to it willy nilly.
    -If you want to break the rules and forfeit, go ahead. If not, stop claiming this. Applying physics to everything is the default way we have always debated here on BankGambling. Since you disagreed with that, we now have Rule 12.
    ~
    If you want to play the “we do not know” game then we are back to square one.
    -It’s not a game, just the truth. Square one being we use physics, and distance is an inherent factor for everything in the universe.
    ~
    Explain this considering the spirit, the soul and what not is not studied/observed under science.
    -That’s rather the point. There are many different ideas about spirits and souls, and science has neither determined that they exist nor that they don’t exist. Science is still struggling with the study of dark matter and dark energy, for instance. Point being, when you make the claim that spiritual power is outside of physics, that claim is based neither on real life nor on any statement from Legacy of Kain. None that you have shown, at least. Spirits and souls exist in the setting, and they also move through space and interact with light. So there’s no point in saying spiritual power is outside of physics unless you can do more than merely say it, and there’s no point in talking about spiritual power at all unless we know it is the medium of Kain’s telekinesis, which we don’t.
    ~
    Even light as has been found over the last few posts can be measured in accordance with mass, particles and can output tangible forces apparently so how is that not material?
    -How are you still confused about this? Light has no rest mass, no material component at all. None of the electromagnetic radiations do.
    ~
    “Something interesting about light, and electromagnetic waves in general, is that no medium is required for the wave to travel through. Other waves, such as sound waves, can not travel through a vacuum. An electromagnetic wave is perfectly happy to do that.
    An electromagnetic wave, although it carries no mass, does carry energy. It also has momentum, and can exert pressure (known as radiation pressure). The reason tails of comets point away from the Sun is the radiation pressure exerted on the tail by the light (and other forms of radiation) from the Sun.” (Source)
    ~
    “The second basic type of radiation is electromagnetic radiation. This kind of radiation is pure energy with no mass and is like vibrating or pulsating waves of electrical and magnetic energy.”
    (Source)
    ~
    We know the cause. Its Kains “will”, him wanting it to happen.
    -It has to be a scientific cause. Willing something to happen is no reason for it to happen. The fact that something does happen means Kain is doing more than just thinking. He’s using his mind to apply force, as the manuals tells us. Applying force is work, and energy is the ability of a system to do work. He uses TK energy. It all works out.
    ~
    It is not just a remark. I am hoping by pointing out the pointless nature of your stance and of your reaching that you may actually try to consider an interesting argument for how DBZ does not get completely ripped apart;
    -I consider everything that comes my way. But this argument is not pointless, and I am not reaching. Essentially repeating that you’re right over and over again is a waste of your breath. It does not sway me. I could tell you that you’re reaching ad nauseam as well, but arguments are not won by people declaring themselves to be right. They’re won by following the rules of logic and debate. Within those rules, you have yet to prove that Kain’s telekinesis works outside of physics. I’m not just going to take your word for it.
    ~
    Rule 12 is official (didn’t need to be before), and the definitions you’ve tried to use to prove TK works outside of physics fail to prove that at all. The behavior of TK also fails to prove it, because what it does isn’t even impossible within our universe. You’re free to believe what you wish, but I think the wise choice would be to admit that as far as this debate is concerned, you don’t have the right information available to prove your belief is correct. Chalk it up to rules you disagree with if you must, but it really would be best to acknowledge what they mean.

  58. Soulerous September 18, 2015 at 9:37 am -      #1058

    Not that saxophones defy physics.

  59. Karen Starr September 18, 2015 at 10:56 am -      #1059

    How in the fuck did Videl go Super Sayian? nvm just looked it up apparently it’s due to residual energy from unborn baby Pan…

  60. Jake_Uzumaki September 18, 2015 at 11:28 am -      #1060

    @Karen
    yeah just residual energy, Which potentially and hopefully means Pan will just be that damn badass when she finally shows up in Super if they have her at any point old enough to get involved.

    @Friendly
    Okay lets be real here, even blind people called that one lol. Shonen Anime escalation the one thing that can always be counted on to go balls to the wall insane. Deathbattle essentially fucking dared Toriyama, I highly doubt he watched that but they were fucking daring him to try with that “even with the new series there is no way Goku will ever surpass Superman” bullshit

  61. Friendlysociopath September 18, 2015 at 12:11 pm -      #1061

    Not that saxophones defy physics.

    Warped bronze abomination from the Eldritch plane- BEGONE YOU PHYSICS DEFYING THING!

  62. ptaine September 18, 2015 at 12:20 pm -      #1062

    “No you just quoted two different definitions. But both of them definitions cover my interpretation. Whether its not physical due to physics itself or not material we come to the same conclusion.”
    .
    I just had a weird moment where my brain tried to mix an english and a southern accent when you said “both of them” and I’m not sure that it’s possible. I digress though…
    .
    I quoted a definition and I then stated how that definition applies to the situation. You are the one that insists on not using your brain by continually committing the appeal to definition fallacy. Furthermore I quoted another definition that explicitly states what I am saying from another source, which incidentally you ignored, but hey, I’ll put it again, I don’t mind:
    .
    “Physical: of or relating to things perceived through the senses as opposed to the mind; tangible or concrete”
    .
    “You do, you like to jabber and that jabber does not explain what your trying to say, you just somehow find a really long way of saying it.”
    .
    Calling it jabber does not in any way hurt my feelings Kitten Lord. All it does is show that you are an idiot who cannot understand why that “jabber” perfectly explains what I’m trying to say OR you are a troll who is purposefully misinterpreting/ignoring what that “jabber” says because it disproves your point.
    .
    In case you’re wondering, you’re an idiot. Is that lack of loquaciousness clear enough for you?
    .
    “So what? Telekinetic meaning moving objects with the mind. Its simply doing what you like to do, saying the same thing only in different ways.”
    .
    Nope. It specifically says Telekinetic Force and nowhere does it say in the manual that TK functions through the mind alone.
    .
    “This is a theory. The object he is moving is under “work””
    .
    It isn’t any more a theory than assuming TK functions through the mind alone and therefore cannot travel the distance in any way, simply being willed there included.
    .
    “It is not, the evidence we have been given says mind is only a factor. Your adding the rest.”
    .
    Except for all the definitions that say “POWER,” and the manual that says, “POWER, FORCE, AND ENERGY”
    .
    “No you hear sound. But sound itself from a physical perspective is vibrating particles. You can measure those particles just like how you can measure how far the man Kain decides to throw travels after hes been made to fly.”
    .
    And I see the effects of TK, Your assertion is that there is no way possible that TK can travel between the target and Kain because you can’t see it. Yet, with sound (among the other evidence Soulerous posted) we have something that I can’t see, ie “nonphysical,” that is affecting a target at a distance.
    .
    “Only energy can be measured as something tangible. How else do you think we discover energy or measure it?”
    .
    Sure, and TK can be seen to function in the physical world, how else would I know it was there?
    .
    “You do not even know what your talking about. I know you have not played the game but he does not collect little balls of energy to fill the bar. He collects fragments to make the bar bigger, said bar fills up quickly after a second or so. Its an infinitely replenishing resource. This is all in-game. The entire subject from the defiance manuel on TK runes is in-game hud and how the player manages it.”
    .
    Me not knowing the specifics doesn’t change the point. If it specifically uses energy to function that is literally not a game mechanic. How it functions in the game is a game mechanic.
    .
    “Kain dematerlizing is simply stated to be one of his powers.”
    .
    No, the fact that he is “immortal” in the sense that he can’t be killed by ordinary means is his power. Dematerializing and going back to a checkpoint when you fail to feed or are grievously injured is a game mechanic. You should probably learn the difference……you probably wouldn’t be so confused.
    .
    “No because distance is not a relevant factor. Again your whole distance argument is a non sequitur, You have no evidence to cover your premise.”
    .
    I HAVE DEFINITIONS:
    .
    Telekinesis: the production of motion in objects (as by a spiritualistic medium) without contact or other physical means……..The supposed inducement of movement of an object by mental or spiritual power………The purported ability to move or deform inanimate objects by mental power………The supposed ability to move objects at a distance by mental power or other nonphysical means.
    .
    Physical: of or relating to things perceived through the senses as opposed to the mind; tangible or concrete.
    .
    Medium: A means of effecting or conveying something: as (1) a substance regarded as the means of transmission of a force or effect.
    .
    Energy: Energy is a quantity that is transferred from system to system. Energy is the ability of a system to do work. A system has done work if it has exerted a force on another system over some distance. When this happens, energy is transferred from one system to another………The mathematician will probably agree that he cannot draw a picture of energy and he will probably also concede that energy does not have shape and is therefore not a physical object……..Energy is not ambiguous (not within physics, anyway). But energy is not itself stuff; it is something that all stuff has.
    .
    Through these definitions I describe Telekinesis as a force transferred from one system to another through the nonphysical medium of energy.
    .
    I HAVE MANUALS:
    .
    Both Kain and Raziel employ Telekinetic force…….Each TK use expends some TK energy. TK power regenerates gradually over time.
    .
    That show this: “In Legacy of Kain: Defiance the telekinetic abilities of both Raziel and Kain are superseded and united as the common ability ‘Telekinesis(TK)’” And that Kain and Raziel use energy to apply that force at a distance, which lines up with the definitions. Furthermore this shows that while the effects may be different, HOW TK functions is exactly the same no matter the effect.
    .
    I HAVE VISUAL EVIDENCE
    .
    Kain’s hand glowing, emitting lightning, and object glowing.
    .
    On top of this from the seer: Agh! Good, yes, drink, my dark prince. Feel my powers coursing through your veins. You can manipulate objects already by sheer will alone. But as you were taught, you can only use this ability at close range. By drinking my blood you will be granted the gift of Telekinesis. You will be able to manipulate objects at a great distance. And, you will be able to manipulate this symbol, and enter the Device.
    .
    These show that there is the possibility of energy transfer between the object and that distance is a statistic to consider for TK.
    .
    AND I HAVE GODDAMN FUCKING COMMON SENSE:
    .
    Something affecting something at a distance has distance as a factor because we do not naturally assume that any distance can be traveled by anything unless explicitly stated otherwise. This is backed up by the rules:
    .
    Our reality’s normal rules of logic and physics are to be used and respected for the quantification of feats and are assumed to apply to fictional settings by default. Exceptions to this may occur when the setting in question ignores or changes this standard.
    .
    Let’s look at what I nonsequiter is shall we?
    .
    8. Non – Sequiter: This is when someone’s conclusion is not implied at all by the premise.
    .
    You really are going to ignore the fact that I literally have provided evidence that explicitly leads to the conclusion that there is no reason arbitrarily assume that distance is not a factor without an explicit mention in the game that 100% confirms your interpretation is correct?
    .
    If you truly believe that, like I said before you are either an idiot or a troll because there is absolutely no way that this is a non-sequiter.
    .
    “This is kind of true, but the difference, and a big one is Raziel creates orbs that despite moving quickly actually travel from him to the target and you can see them.”
    .
    Being able to see it has no bearing on the point. If Raziel’s orbs are limited by distance than Kain’s use of TK is also limited by distance because they employ the same Telekinetic force.
    .
    “beyond about 20-30+ sources, yeah…”
    .
    No one is arguing with your sources. They are arguing with what you think those sources mean.
    .
    “I have no assurance of that. Considering you have spent god knows how long deadlocking this with something as petty as minor interpretations on words just to bog down the thread I doubt it.”
    .
    I could care less if you believe me or not, and I was assuming you wouldn’t believe me. And you literally stated that Kain could end all of the combatants at the start of the match by TKing them at a hundred meters. This is not petty. This is not minor. And as for who is deadlocking a thread, I put that squarely on your shoulders.

  63. ptaine September 18, 2015 at 12:28 pm -      #1063

    “Not that saxophones defy physics. Warped bronze abomination from the Eldritch plane- BEGONE YOU PHYSICS DEFYING THING!”
    .
    You can’t stop the sax!!!!!

  64. Soulerous September 18, 2015 at 1:04 pm -      #1064

    I just had a weird moment where my brain tried to mix an english and a southern accent when you said “both of them” and I’m not sure that it’s possible.
    -Bahaha! Both of them definitions. That sax video is great. Thanks for sharing.
    ~
    Here’s the accent, more or less.

  65. Kitten Lord September 20, 2015 at 6:05 am -      #1065

    @Lowk

    “His hand wasn’t, so the bulletd spread out. Plus he isn’t just holding out his palm out like a mitt. He is grabbing them out of the air as they get close.”

    HIs hand was not that far away. at best a foot or so. We do not know if he caught all the bullets either. He just appears to be snatching in all directions, which obviously at that range should net him some bullets.

    “Regardless, it wasn’t a strength feat.”

    It is not a question of strength but of force. If he is moving fast and hitting them then they should be moving, they do not until this odd piece of cinematography expires and they suddenly fall. I think I have seen it before in cartoons.

    @Bullets

    ” still have to be fast enough to intercept said predictable trajectory, ”

    Wrong, you just have to predict when your opponent is going to pull the trigger. Or, if your senses are better than a humans, actually see/hear his finger move to the trigger.

    Since the trajectory is obvious then you just need to have your hand in the right place.

    @Numin

    “using a 1 hour timeframe for a low end,”

    Why is that a low end?

    @Soul

    “Telekinesis does not move objects with thought alone.”

    The seer specifically says “through sheer will alone” when talking to Kain about the eventual telekinesis she is about to give him.

    “Thought directs energy, so objects moving with thought does”

    But not the way Kain does it, not by just thinking of something moving and it does. You cannot in science think of an apple 10 meters away, think and it moves…it just is not observed in science, we are discussing something that science has no connection to. The supernatural.

    ” Not without any physical means whatsoever. ”

    At least one defintion says without physical means. Whether that is literally without physics or without material means is irrelevant to the fact that to argue Kain has a limit on range requires there to be some material subject.

    ” It doesn’t mean physics are ignored, because there are possible interpretations where physics are not ignored.”

    What “possible” interpretations? He uses his mind to move objects at a distance and combined with what the Seer says “by sheer will alone” , considering this adds up with most if not all definitions of TK without you adding your unknown variables you do not have to slash yourself to piecies with Occams razzor to come to the conclusion that we can already see in the game which is “Kain wills, object moves” without trying to claim he is moving energy about..

    “Energy bypasses matter all the time,”

    Again a typical fallcious rebuttal. You commit the half truth fallacy constantly with your line of reasoning, ignoring the fact that those that do bypass matter are not applying enough force or creating enough force to move said matter or even more, shatter it like Kain does.

    ” And science is still researching new types of energy and matter”

    Science is finding countless things to be true that we did not know before. We are a planetary nation at best with a few probes in a small section of the universe. To try and affirm what we know is actually universal truth by any measurement is a joke so this is a useless statement from you.

    “making up arbitrary rules of physics”

    I am using real facets in science, you do not have energy travelling with “enough” power to break through something and yet, have it just pass through things willy nilly in accordance to some will. It is a mother of all exceptions to the rule you try and twist to say we should try and scale Telekinesis the way you want to.

    ” Again, energy can pass through things with little to no effect”

    And again, what energy passes through physical objects only to shatter another object of the same or less hardness on the other isde?

    “The clip is affected while the paper is not.”

    That is purely because not everything is magnetic.

    “Gravitational energy breaks things all the time when they cannot bear their own weight. In black holes it crushes things.”

    Your shooting yourself in the foot with this argument. It does not aid you but you realize gravity itself is range-less and exists throughout the universe.

    “Definitions that Legacy of Kain is never said to use.”

    Its obvious that is what it is referring to based on what the characters are saying and doing. The characters are in a medieval setting and use magic and supernatural powers, they have no idea about quantum theory, physics and radiation.

    Yet your argument implies Kain is somehow manipulating things on this scale of energy. Manipulating particles at the speed of light that pass through skin without harm only to suddenly gain force massively and tear apart a body…

    If anything what your saying makes Kain massively impressive like some sort of high end energy manipulator.

    “There are multiple definitions that do not support your interpretation”

    out of all those provided the only one is one that you reach to mean what you want it to.

    Your entire interpretation is a cherry pick of a definition, which is further interpreted through reaching to mean what you want which is then forced into this situation thanks to an extremely self destructive dervish of slashing against yourself with occams razor…

    “My point is you can’t say those specific ones are the right ones.”


    It is implied they are correct in the source material. You know, the magical, supernatural beings without any knowledge of energy or its use. Also it is not specific to say half a dozen if not most if not all the definitions support this, which they do.

    ” I am not favoring the other types of instruments,”

    Thing is you are, you have been favoring one interpretation nof a defintion by arguing constantly about how energy has to be involved somehow. You also clearly favor any defintion that suggests Kain TKing requires him to somehow use a method that has a limit on range. Hence why even when the physics suggests there is not likely any range involved with movement of mass-less/non physical energy and all known ones are infinite or at least far beyond anything this thread needs to know you give us a loud “cough, must travel distance cough!” that you chuck in now and then.

    “Supernatural means either that the thing in question is not understood by science or that it’s beyond the laws of nature. Or means either one could be the case, ”

    Either of those work for my case. If it is not understood by science by definition then why are you trying to pretend you can apply some understanding of science over it if it cannot be?

    “Claiming I’m corrupting something”

    No I am pointing out the corruption. Your taking the rule to the extreme and are claiming anything you do not consider an exception not one.

    “And why would that mean you can attribute all the properties of electromagnetic energy”

    I am not saying all properties. I am saying it has no mass, therefore it has no limit on range because the limit of an object to travel distance is based on the energy required to move it. Energy itself is abstract as is the mind, either one is not directly attributed to a distance nor a limit. Leaving us back to square one, no travel required or evident.

    ” Applying physics to everything is the default way we have always debated here on BankGambling.”

    No, rule 12 does outline what we have been doing on BankGambling but we have never applied physics to everything. You can deadlock every magical feat and power based on countless interpretations of phyics and then conclude none of them can be proven and therefore none of them can be cliamed as useful to the thread. If this was the way BankGambling was argued we would have zero awarded threads unless the feats are literally pure kinetic, physical characters beating at eachother.

    Can you show me an example where magic in other threads has been argued concerning energy and physics to the same level your argueing here? e.g. down to whether its electromagnetic, phontons or what not?

    ” distance is an inherent factor for everything in the universe.”

    rs895.pbsrc.com/albums/ac159/GIFsforhire/Facepalm/facepalm.gif~c200

    Distance is just a factor we can measure for some things, but there is no logic behind assuming everything in the universe or fiction had to travel from point A to B for something to occur. Does gravity travel or is it everywhere in the universe?

    “there’s no point in talking about spiritual power at all unless we know it is the medium of Kain’s telekinesis, which we don’t.”

    There is because it brings up the point of how not everything is gauged or even gaugable by science itself or indeed even physics and how most defintions of TK either directly state a lack of scientific connection or use words that suggest a lack ofi t.

    “Light has no rest mass”

    No but it has particles. Photons. They are made up of “something” and that something can push against other things and can be refracted/stopped by things,

    Unless your suggesting material means “has no mass”? In which case they do have relativistic mass.

    “It has to be a scientific cause.”

    Well this is your problem. Your basically forcing to be one even though we know Kains will causes objects to move. We know he uses “only” his mind.

    “Applying force is work”

    Its just an applied force. The work is really just Kain tihnking.

    ” Essentially repeating that you’re right over and over again is a waste of your breath. ”

    I do not use “breath” to type my padawan! Seriously though, you seem to think typing your stance over and over is worth doing so I may as well do the same until November.

    “Within those rules, you have yet to prove that Kain’s telekinesis works outside of physics.”

    I have proven that beyond a shadow of a doubt as defined direclty by definition and character statements that telekeinsis itself has more about mysticism to it than science. Telekinesis itself not actually observed or acted in science and physics.

    Mea posted the obvious proof to this earlier wherein any known medium that would allow someone to move an object is impossible, their just not powerful enough and as we have concluded in our discussion, if it was powerful enough it should not be able to move things so specifcally in accordance with Kains will.

    Mechanisms he is trying to move should break, people he is moving should have damage done to them. Energy he should be moving with great force should have torn through a man before it manipulated blood.

    “Rule 12 is official”

    Which is fine as long as people do not take it the extremes you are. What your doing with Rule 12 is as extreme as the people who assume rule 5 which states maximum efficiency means the characters get all their best equipment, despite it also saying standard equipment only.

    Or rule 6, which some people interpret to mean different things since what is “a general idea of capabilities”, I have argued with people who have interpreted both those rules differently and your doing the same here.

    “The behavior of TK also fails to prove it, because what it does isn’t even impossible within our universe.”

    How is it not possible? how is it possible for an entity to move objects beyond themselves just by thinking it? Never happens in our science.

    @Ptaine

    “I quoted a definition and I then stated how that definition applies to the situation. ”

    I am pointing out neither of those definitions lead us to the premise that your trying to spout that TK ha a limited range.

    “Calling it jabber does not in any way hurt my feelings Kitten Lord”

    The fact you brought up your feelings as if I give a damn makes me think it does hurt your feelings. The fact you also keep flaming me by calling me an idiot and called me an ass for saying you talk too much makes me think your quite insecure.

    Why would I give a damn about any of those things though when all I really want you to do is stop the blather and get to the damn point…your posts would be a few paragraphs in size and far quicker to respond to if you did.

    “Nope. It specifically says Telekinetic Force and nowhere does it say in the manual that TK functions through the mind alone.”

    It does not have to because the older manuel already covers this…in which Defiance adds not removes the result of this which is a force.

    “It isn’t any more a theory than assuming TK functions through the mind alone”

    No because mind alone is specifcally stated. Just like how the Seer says “through sheer will alone”, it is quite clear.

    “And I see the effects of TK,”

    You cannot see TK itself. You can only see the result.

    “K can travel between the target and Kain because you can’t see it. ”


    I cannot see it nor can I see the effect if it was travelling through objects. The most obvious example being a mans chest to get to his blood. But the walls, fences and what not that Kain moves soldiers from behind are fine too.

    “how else would I know it was there?”

    Because we see the object shatter/man move and the result is told to us as being TK. If we did not know what happened then you can be “loquaciousness ” again and rabbit on about how it could be hundreds of different things like a strong wind or w/e..

    Anything that allows you to spam a huge paragraph as obtusely as possible and deadlock the thread.

    ” If it specifically uses energy to function”

    That is hte problem. Energy as far as defiance is concerned is only as stated refering to the runes in the hud. Telekinetic energy is littlre more than the bar on the side. Never do any characters in defiance even state energy.

    At best we know Raziel uses energy in Soul reaver to project his orbs of force.

    ” Dematerializing and going back to a checkpoint when you fail to feed or are grievously injured is a game mechanic.”

    The checkpoint is the game mechanic. The dematerlization is stated in the same line as his immortality.

    “Through these definitions I describe Telekinesis as a force transferred from one system to another through the nonphysical medium of energy.”

    Which does not prove distance as a factor again. Mediums of pure energy are rangeless and constant and any that have ranges are not relevant enough for 100 meters to even be noticeable.

    We are talking light years.

    “Physical: of or relating to things perceived through the senses as opposed to the mind; tangible or concrete.”

    Also this is amusing, even this cherry picked defintion could be applied to energy so again, as I said your premise is all over the place.

    “I HAVE MANUALS:”

    Which you misuse by selecting a gameplay mechanic. You also cherry pick whether manuels are relevant are not (double standards much?( because you ignore the only direct statement for how telekinesis in LoK works (using only the mind) in one manuel only to use your interpretation and bastardization of another to try and supplant it.

    “Kain’s hand glowing, emitting lightning, and object glowing.”

    Again, how does hand glowing mean something traveled? awful, perforated conclusion I suppose where all the logic has poured out?…

    “On top of this from the seer”


    Yes we do;

    ” by sheer will alone”

    www.reactiongifs.us/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/lol_ricky_gervais.gif

    “AND I HAVE GODDAMN FUCKING COMMON SENSE:”

    God I wish you did. Like the common sense that typing in capitals does not suddenly make your point valid. You have shown anytihing but common sense.

    You admit you consider “non physical” to mean non material yet you have consistently used examples and analogies concerning range that involve physical objects like throwing balls.

    You also seem to think that energy is somehow going to stop moving after X distance ven though there is no “work” being done on any object between Kain and his target, the target is under some form of work hence why the man in question does not fly off an infnite distance, or the object Kain is affecting is not under infnite pressure.

    “because there is absolutely no way that this is a non-sequiter.”

    Oh there absolutely is. The person claiming that it is not a non sequiter likely does not understand how their menagerie of broken claims does not support anything they have stated.

    Your entire stance much like Souls has always been an interpretation reaching for an interpretation piled atop a layer of fallacies that were smeared like lather on occams razor which was then used to literally slice your own throat, a perfect metaphor for your argument.

    “If Raziel’s orbs are limited by distance ”

    No because Raziels are actually an orb of force we can see travelling distance.

    ” They are arguing with what you think those sources mean.”

    Which is by proxy arguing with my sources because all I state in my super post is what the sources show us. Not what I think they show us.

    “And you literally stated that Kain could end all of the combatants at the start of the match by TKing them at a hundred meters. This is not petty. This is not minor. And as for who is deadlocking a thread, I put that squarely on your shoulders.”

    Sure I did, because the 100 meters is only thrown in as relevant by my opposition and since it was has been dodged as burdon for proof as why it is relevant. And has yet to be proven so, infact even using physics, that 100 meters is still irrelevant.

    Considering your reading the same conclusions from both my view and your own as I have, you should realize this by now so I can only conclude your deadlocking the thread because you do not want to admit you were wrong for bringing it up as a problem.

    “This is not petty. This is not minor. And as for who is deadlocking a thread, I put that squarely on your shoulders.”

    No really, it is really minor. What difference does it make if a developer came in this thread, Amy Hennig herself and said “actually Kitten Lord, I created the game and Kain can only TK at 10 meters. What difference other than instead of 100 meters, they die within 10 meters?

    Holy shit this thread has gone on for too long over something pointless purely due to “disbelief” rather than any real logic or argument over Kain wrecking DBZ.

  66. Numinous One September 20, 2015 at 6:34 am -      #1066

    “Why is that a low end?”

    Oh I didn’t do the calc, logically it wouldn’t take the Supreme Kai that long to gather them, but I’m not gonna press the point.
    I’ve been looking through a few things and I’m not even sure that manga is canon, it’s been refered to as an adaption of the anime a couple times.
    It has the same standing as the DBZ anime does to the original manga.

    On topic, episode 11 gave a few feats.
    Beerus withstood a Kamehama without any damage, said attack overpowered around 50 or so individual planet busting attacks.
    Goku now has some degree of regeneration? Beerus stabbed his hand into his chest and he healed from that without any marks.
    Another speed feat, Goku flew to pretty much the edge of space in around 13.5seconds.

  67. Kitten Lord September 20, 2015 at 7:43 am -      #1067

    Mind posting the episode please? Also how much damage did the Kamehama actually do to the environment?

  68. Numinous One September 20, 2015 at 7:48 am -      #1068

    kissanime.com/Anime/Dragon-Ball-Super/Episode-011?id=116949

    About 15:20 onwards.
    Didn’t do any environmental damage, up near space and all that.

  69. Ninja Lowk September 20, 2015 at 2:04 pm -      #1069

    “Is hand was not that far away. at best a foot or so.”

    It wasn’t covering the barrel and far enough away so it still would’ve allowed for spread, which is shown. Nevermind the fact that his hand wasn’t stationary in front of the gun to simply block the bullets.
    ===
    “We do not know if he caught all the bullets either.”

    The base of the calc is just for catching one bullet. Besides that, behind him was glass and it stayed intact throught the entire process. No bullets seemed to strike anything behind him either.
    All you really have is a maybe that is contradicted by the visuals.
    ===
    “He just appears to be snatching in all directions, which obviously at that range should net him some bullets.”

    Maybe if you were the luckiest guy on earth. Nevermind no bullet was shown striking anything else, trying to do that would’ve resulted in accidentally deflecting bullets around. Something he was trying to avoid because of the nearby innocents.
    Then there is the fact that his fingers would have to move fast enough to close around any of the bullets. Considering humans reflexes that would still put him well above human speeds. Also the  moving fingers so fast he didn’t drop anything during.
    The whole scene is basically the prelude to the author turning Gohan into a Superman expy. It is pretty much the author’s intent to show how super he is.

    Plus there’s Raditz who is now so far down the ranks that Krillin would probably kick his ass.

    Your downplay is almost equivalent to dbz fanboy wank. Your like some kind of Negafanboy.
    ===
    “It is not a question of strength but of force. If he is moving fast and hitting them then they should be moving, they do not until this odd piece of cinematography expires and they suddenly fall.”

    Going by what your saying you’d actually be attributing a feat of control he has in restraint regarding his attacks while being able to quickly re-accelerate.
    Then again DB Super seems to be retconing the last two movies so just ignore that one for now.

  70. CH1C4N0444 is allergic to bullets September 20, 2015 at 3:32 pm -      #1070

    “Wrong, you just have to predict when your opponent is going to pull the trigger.”

    Predict wrong and you have a bullet in your face. Predict right and you still have to be fast enough to dodge it…

    Also, that’s aim dodging, not bullet timing…
    =
    “Or, if your senses are better than a humans, actually see/hear his finger move to the trigger.”

    Which still won’t do you any good if you aren’t fast enough to dodge the bullet itself….

    And still aim dodging…
    =
    “Since the trajectory is obvious then you just need to have your hand in the right place.”

    If it’s already there, sure, but if you have to move it there then you’ll need to be fast enough to get to that position.
    =
    Why not test it out if you think it’s so simple to do? Buy a gun, get someone to shoot you, record it, then do it yourself. Make sure to post it no matter what happens.

  71. Soulerous September 20, 2015 at 8:45 pm -      #1071

    The seer specifically says “through sheer will alone” when talking to Kain about the eventual telekinesis she is about to give him.
    -1) She says “you can manipulate objects already by sheer will alone,” which refers to the power he already had, not what she was about to give him.
    2) His will being able to do something impossible through our idea of will only means that his will is different and has power, not that physics are ignored.
    ~
    But not the way Kain does it, not by just thinking of something moving and it does. You cannot in science think of an apple 10 meters away, think and it moves…it just is not observed in science, we are discussing something that science has no connection to.
    -We are not discussing something science has no connection to. The only things we have for how Kain does it are what we’re shown and what the manuals tell us, and these things lead us to the conclusion that Kain uses energy. Your claim that telekinesis works outside of physics is still without proof of any kind. The only way your claim will mean anything is if you provide real proof.
    ~
    At least one defintion says without physical means.
    -We are not limited to one definition. We have all of them, for none of them are specified by Legacy of Kain. In case you still don’t know, that means none of them can be singled out as proof that TK works that specific way and not any of the other possible ways.
    ~
    Thing is you are, you have been favoring one interpretation nof a defintion by arguing constantly about how energy has to be involved somehow. You also clearly favor any defintion that suggests Kain TKing requires him to somehow use a method that has a limit on range.
    -Oh, thing is I’m not. You have claimed that telekinesis is automatically outside of physics because of it’s definition. I have correctly pointed out that it isn’t automatically outside of physics.
    ~
    It is implied they are correct in the source material.
    -Ptaine and I are implied to be correct by the source material. Kain’s previous form of TK having limited range, the manuals saying TK uses energy, force, and power, and the fact that light and apparently electrical emissions come from Kain using it all implies we are correct. Nothing supports your interpretation aside from some definitions you don’t get to use.
    ~
    Also it is not specific to say half a dozen if not most if not all the definitions support this, which they do.
    -Most definitions do not imply the power to be outside of physics, they simply say the movement is caused without material means. But however many definitions were to support your interpretation, the fact that there are any that don’t means the true nature of TK is not proven by them. So yes, it is specific.
    ~
    If it is not understood by science by definition then why are you trying to pretend you can apply some understanding of science over it if it cannot be?
    -Nothing was understood by science before science found out how it worked. “Not understood” does not equal “cannot be understood” or “impossible to apply to.” Also, you ignored that it can mean “extraordinarily great.”
    ~
    Instead of presenting real proof, you’re trying to say TK is supernatural (despite not having shown where Legacy of Kain calls it that) and then using a cherry-picked definition of that word, ignoring other definitions, to say TK has the properties you want it to have. This is obviously a terrible argument. Try another.
    ~
    No I am pointing out the corruption. Your taking the rule to the extreme and are claiming anything you do not consider an exception not one.
    -You’re claiming I’m corrupting it. You’re claiming I’m taking the rule to an extreme. I’m not. These claims do you no good. I suggest you stop saying “I’m right” and use an actual argument for why I can’t use physics to quantify Kain’s telekinetic abilities despite Rule 12 literally saying “Our reality’s normal rules of logic and physics are to be used and respected for the quantification of feats and are assumed to apply to fictional settings by default.”
    ~
    What “possible” interpretations?
    -It is possible for TK to function within physics, so we assume it does until it is proven otherwise. Not as a matter of canon, but as a matter of what question are relevant.
    ~
    You commit the half truth fallacy constantly with your line of reasoning, ignoring the fact that those that do bypass matter are not applying enough force or creating enough force to move said matter or even more, shatter it like Kain does.
    -Magnetic fields can, in fact, move objects. They can do so with enough force to shatter them. Not that I even need to tell you.
    ~
    I am using real facets in science
    -You made up an arbitrary rule, namely that it is impossible for different types of energy to carry more power than known types. This is false. Different types of energy carry more power than others. This is extremely clear just from the examples of light, gamma radiation, and gravity.
    ~
    you do not have energy travelling with “enough” power to break through something and yet, have it just pass through things willy nilly in accordance to some will.
    -Yes I do. Magnetic fields. Imagine this on a bigger scale.
    ~
    And again, what energy passes through physical objects only to shatter another object of the same or less hardness on the other isde?
    -One that affects certain substances more than others, like electromagnetic energies. Or one that travels through a different parallel plane so it appears at the target without passing through matter. Either could account for Kain’s power. Could, not does.
    ~
    That is purely because not everything is magnetic.
    -Which would prove my point that energy can pass through matter and then affect other matter. Paper is affected, though. Every material is influenced to some extent by a magnetic field. It’s just that different things are affected differently. For some substances the effect is negligible.
    ~
    Its obvious that is what it is referring to based on what the characters are saying and doing.
    -Oh, really? What makes it obvious? I’ve been asking for proof. I’ll keep asking.
    ~
    The characters are in a medieval setting and use magic and supernatural powers, they have no idea about quantum theory, physics and radiation.
    -Neither do insects. Yet they function according to physics, and so does Legacy of Kain.
    ~
    Manipulating particles at the speed of light
    -I’ve told you several times that you can’t apply the properties of electromagnetic radiation to TK energy and that my examples were to show that certain behaviors are possible. There’s no proof that TK energy travels at the speed of light.
    ~
    If anything what your saying makes Kain massively impressive like some sort of high end energy manipulator.
    -Sure, whatever. All I’m interested in is what he can do. So far he can TK at several dozen feet.
    ~
    Your entire interpretation is a cherry pick of a definition, which is further interpreted through reaching to mean what you want which is then forced into this situation thanks to an extremely self destructive dervish of slashing against yourself with occams razor…
    -I’m afraid you have it backwards. You are trying to convince me that your explanation of Kain’s power is canonical. My “interpretation,” which it isn’t, is actually an explanation of why you don’t get to assume TK ignores physics. Do you think I’m saying I know how TK functions? If so, let me dispel that notion right now: I’m not. I’m saying physics apply by default, and nothing proves that TK is an exception. It’s that simple. This whole argument about energy arose because you claimed energy can’t possibly be the medium through which TK works.
    ~
    Which, incidentally, you conceded to in post #960.
    ~
    “Ill concede to that, TK can possibly use energy.” -Kitten Lord, post #960.
    ~
    So why are you still arguing? What part of TK being able to use any type of fictional energy imaginable gives you pause? I’m defending the simple and entirely reasonable position of “physics are a thing, so prove that TK ignores range.”
    ~
    Whether that is literally without physics or without material means is irrelevant to the fact that to argue Kain has a limit on range requires there to be some material subject.
    -Energy travels. In other words, effects travel. You have to prove how far Kain can project and control this energy/effect. You’ve said he can do it farther than what he has, as far as he can see, but have not proven this. Just as you have not proven that range isn’t a valid question like it normally is. You’re trying to change that baseline, so you need to have a good reason.
    ~
    I am not saying all properties. I am saying it has no mass, therefore it has no limit on range because the limit of an object to travel distance is based on the energy required to move it.
    -So you think it having no mass means TK energy can travel forever with no limit, and therefore Kain can move objects at any range? That isn’t true.
    1) Physical objects don’t slow down and stop moving just because they have mass; it’s because some of their momentum is transferred to objects they push against as they move, including air particles and sources of friction. Objects in motion stay in motion unless acted upon by an outside force.
    2) Likewise, energy can be disrupted and/or dispersed as it travels. Electromagnetic radiation of different types penetrate materials with differing levels of integrity. If TK energy works by being projected like light, how far it can travel is a valid question for this reason.
    3) Energy doesn’t always travel in straight lines. Magnetic fields affect a limited area of space around their source and move objects with the flow of photons. If TK energy works by flowing in a loop or multiple loops (a field), what dimensions Kain can give them is a valid question.
    4) We do not know that TK energy travels like light, and we do not know it works like a magnetic field. It could work any way imaginable. It does not work exactly the same as any energy I know of. It’s a mystery. The only facts surrounding it are that Kain and Raziel both use it for telekinesis, it would be impossible for TK to work without it, and you have not proven that the impossible is possible. In short, something may very well travel between Kain and his target, so you have to prove his range is greater than what he’s demonstrated.
    ~
    we have never applied physics to everything. You can deadlock every magical feat and power based on countless interpretations of phyics and then conclude none of them can be proven and therefore none of them can be cliamed as useful to the thread. If this was the way BankGambling was argued we would have zero awarded threads unless the feats are literally pure kinetic, physical characters beating at eachother.
    -Nothing can be deadlocked like this. There is not a single thing I could ever do to take away a character’s displayed abilities. The issue is Kain hasn’t displayed the ability to TK at any distance as long as he can perceive the target.
    ~
    What I do not get to say, what I am not saying, and what the rule does not support: “I know for a fact that TK functions in this way and obeys all laws of physics.”
    ~
    What I do get to say, am saying, and is dictated by the rules: “Distance is normally a factor and there’s no guarantee that it isn’t now, so I don’t have to act like it isn’t a factor.” This has been the point from the start.
    ~
    What you do not get to say, are saying, and breaks the rules: “I know for a fact that TK functions in this way, which makes distance irrelevant.” This has been your burden of proof from the start. You tried to shift it to us and make us prove that distance is a factor to be considered. You are the one that must prove it isn’t a factor. You must prove how TK works, because you are claiming it works in a way that makes distance irrelevant.
    ~
    Until you prove that, the answer to the question “does it work that way?” is that we don’t know. As such, you can’t give Kain a feat that requires that we do know. Take Gandalf, for example. Do his powers all function according to physics beyond our understanding? I don’t know. Maybe they do, maybe they don’t. What I do know is that he’s used telekinesis on things near him, but never across a 500-meter plain. Just because he’s a wizard with mystical power does not mean I get to assume range is irrelevant and he can TK at that distance. Range might not be irrelevant at all. But if it were proven to be, or if Gandalf has moved something at that distance, Rule 12 would not impede his feats in any way at all. It doesn’t impede them either way.
    ~
    Things either work within physics or they don’t. If they don’t, there will be proof of it. If there’s no proof then we don’t know they work outside of physics. Meaning not that they canonically work within physics, just that everything that would normally be a factor in quantifying a feat is a factor: What does it do, at what range can it do it, how quickly can it do it, and how much power does it have?

  72. ptaine September 21, 2015 at 9:49 am -      #1072

    “I am pointing out neither of those definitions lead us to the premise that your trying to spout that TK ha a limited range.”
    .
    So, sound doesn’t have a limited range? The problem you are having is that my premise directly leads from the definitions that I’ve stated I’m using for my interpretation. I even gave you an example that explicitly shows what I am talking about in sound:
    .
    – TK is immaterial. As in not a tangible object. Much like sound.
    – BUT, that “nonphysicalness” or “immaterialness” does not make TK unable to be described in the material realm. Much like sound.
    – Just because sound affects the physical realm does not mean that it isn’t immaterial itself, because sound isn’t tangible. Much like TK.
    .
    So from these definitions, and a clear example, we come to the conclusion that the possibility exists that TK is limited by range because it can be described in the physical realm despite its “nonphysicalness.” MUCH. LIKE. SOUND.
    .
    That leads to this:
    .
    “The fact you brought up your feelings as if I give a damn makes me think it does hurt your feelings. The fact you also keep flaming me by calling me an idiot and called me an ass for saying you talk too much makes me think your quite insecure. Why would I give a damn about any of those things though when all I really want you to do is stop the blather and get to the damn point…your posts would be a few paragraphs in size and far quicker to respond to if you did.”
    .
    I called you an ass, not because you told me I talked to much, but because I asked you to stop Cherrypicking my posts and provide more than the little snippets you do in your response so I can see the context of what you cherrypicked without having to go back to my post and find where it came from. You further compounded that by focusing in on “my talking to much” in a paragraph where I was explaining to you the importance of other universes use of TK in comparison to our own, why that was important in Legacy of Kain, and why you not giving a damn about that comparison was incorrect. You even showed why you don’t understand the importance later when you got the comparison backwards. The point is you chose to ignore that while focusing on a completely irrelevant and fallacious point.
    .
    On the other hand, my point in calling you an idiot is that you either purposefully misrepresent what I say by cherrypicking my posts, or you’re to stupid to realize that I’ve literally “gotten to the point” several times in more succinct ways that you’ve chosen to ignore, which is why I further explain myself.
    .
    Like the above example. You are purposefully ignoring what I mean by “nonphysicalness,” how the definitions apply to “nonphysicalness,” and how the example of sound represents the idea I am conveying to you. Or you’re stupid. There is literally not one other option, even though I know you will try to pass off the idea that another option is that you’re right….
    .
    However, let’s look for other examples shall we? “Kain’s hand glowing, emitting lightning, and object glowing.”Again, how does hand glowing mean something traveled? awful, perforated conclusion I suppose where all the logic has poured out?…
    .
    In this example I said, “Kain’s hand glowing, EMITTING LIGHTNING, OBJECT GLOWING” You ignored, cherrypicked, or stupidly only responded to Kain’s hand glowing. It literally isn’t simply his hand glowing. It is literally the fact that his hand glows, lightning emits from his hand, AND the object glows. All of these together indicate, and here is another idea you continually misrepresent, the possibility of energy transfer across the distance.
    .
    Another example: “You admit you consider “non physical” to mean non material yet you have consistently used examples and analogies concerning range that involve physical objects like throwing balls.”
    .
    I never, one time, used the ball analogy in respect to nonphysicalness. I used that in respect to your Appeal to Definition fallacy and I was giving you an example of why simply relying on the definition to describe a things behavior was fallacious. You are the one that responded with nonphysicalness as if the comparison was apt.
    .
    One last example: “Also this is amusing, even this cherry picked defintion could be applied to energy so again, as I said your premise is all over the place.”
    .
    First of all, I’m not really sure what you mean by could be applied to energy, because that is literally what I’m doing. Unless you mean that energy is physical? Energy is nonphysical because it isn’t tangible or concrete. Some definitions to show what I mean:
    .
    Tangible: able to be touched or felt……capable of being perceived especially by the sense of touch. Concrete: to form into a solid mass…….existing in a material or physical form; real or solid; not abstract.
    .
    We’ve already covered that energy is an abstract quantity, and I’ve already discussed that energy is not material because I can’t hold it in my hand, much like sound. So, no, my premise isn’t all over the place, unless you are purposefully ignoring what I mean, or are incapable of understanding what I mean.
    .
    Second of all, Cherrypicking is ignoring contrary evidence. This is down by stating something as absolute while ignoring contrary evidence. Since I’m not stating an absolute and simply stating that the possibility exists that the nonphysical medium that TK uses is energy, energy is nonphysical in much the same way sound is so it can be described in the physical realm, therefore distance would be a limiting factor, I am not Cherrypicking. I am showing why absolutely stating that distance is not a factor IS Cherrypicking.
    .
    “It does not have to because the older manuel already covers this…in which Defiance adds not removes the result of this which is a force. No because mind alone is specifcally stated. Just like how the Seer says “through sheer will alone”, it is quite clear.”
    .
    I’ll just answer both of these together because they are effectively the same thing. We already went over the fact that the seer says through sheer will alone in respect to Kain’s previous power that was limited by distance. Therefore if his new power isn’t limited by distance, per the seer, then his new power doesn’t use will alone, per the seer, since she changed the perameters of what he could do.
    .
    The addition by defiance provides that answer. Force. Which is projected by energy, NOT the mind. Like I’ve been saying, this is a possible, correct, and viable conclusion we derive from the manuals.
    .
    “You cannot see TK itself. You can only see the result. I cannot see it nor can I see the effect if it was travelling through objects. The most obvious example being a mans chest to get to his blood. But the walls, fences and what not that Kain moves soldiers from behind are fine too. Because we see the object shatter/man move and the result is told to us as being TK. If we did not know what happened then you can be “loquaciousness ” again and rabbit on about how it could be hundreds of different things like a strong wind or w/e.. Anything that allows you to spam a huge paragraph as obtusely as possible and deadlock the thread.”
    .
    This nonsense is effectively boiled down to a question you asked Soulerous: “And again, what energy passes through physical objects only to shatter another object of the same or less hardness on the other isde?”
    .
    You’ve effectively answered this already, and is why objects not being affected by TK between Kain and the target is not enough of a reason to discount the interpretation as viable. These are from 2 different posts but they are from you Kitten Lord: “Specifically a telekinetic kind of force. Right so nothing in our science, e.g. nothing non fictional. We have very little knowledge of the “system” your talking about.”
    .
    Essentially, Soulerous provided several examples of energy going through objects without affecting them. We also established that we have no known force that can account for TK, but we already know that doesn’t matter because Legacy of Kain provides us with the idea of Telekinetic Force. Since we have very little knowledge about HOW this Telekinetic force is applied, a possible interpretation we arrive at is that this Telekinetic Energy travels through objects because they are not targeted, for some unknown reason, and we have real life examples that support the ability of energy to do such a thing.
    .
    Does this show absolutely that distance must be traveled? Not at all, BUT it does show, yet again, why absolutely stating that nothing is affected in between, therefore distance can’t be traveled and is not a factor is cherrypicking and is not a proven stance.

  73. Soulerous September 21, 2015 at 2:33 pm -      #1073

    For the strength of bodiless energy, let’s look at some more examples. As we know, photons can travel through both nothing and something:
    “Electromagnetic waves differ from mechanical waves in that they do not require a medium to propagate. This means that electromagnetic waves can travel not only through air and solid materials, but also through the vacuum of space.” (Source)
    ~
    There is no practical upper limit to the power they can have:
    ‘How much energy can a single photon possess?’ “As others have noted, the known laws of physics set no limit.” -Jerzy Pawlak, PhD in High Energy Physics. (Source)
    ~
    The graph on this page shows that photons are the exchanged particle in electromagnetic interactions, meaning they are responsible for the repelling force between like charges and the attracting force between opposite charges. “Fundamentally, both magnetic and electric forces are manifestations of an exchange force involving the exchange of photons.”
    ~
    This force can be incredibly great. “If you were standing at arm’s length from someone and each of you had one percent more electrons than protons, the repelling force would be incredible. How great? Enough to lift the Empire State Building? No! To lift Mount Everest? No! The repulsion would be enough to lift a “weight” equal to that of the entire earth!” (Source)
    ~
    That is the power of electromagnetic energy. Photons are no joke.

  74. Mea quidem sententia September 21, 2015 at 4:42 pm -      #1074

    Let’s clear a few things here.

    Being incapable of holding something doesn’t mean it’s not physical. I can’t hold air with my hand, for example.

    Electromagnetic waves do affect things on an atomic level. So if it is said that electromagnetic waves do not affect things, it should be noted that on a macroscopic level, it may not appear as if things are not affected.

    Vacuums are something. There’s no such thing as “nothing”, at least not in the literal meaning. Space should be referred to as a “hard vacuum”. As far as I’m aware, there is no perfect vacuum.

  75. Soulerous September 21, 2015 at 6:00 pm -      #1075

    Being incapable of holding something doesn’t mean it’s not physical.
    -It does in the sense Ptaine meant it. I think he knows that gases are physical.
    ~
    I am aware of these two other facts. The only thing we can rule out for Kain’s telekinesis is that it doesn’t affect material between Kain and his target on any visible level. Space is also as close to nothing as we’re going to get here, so I casually referred to it as nothing. If you’re making sure I know, I appreciate the heads up.

  76. Kitten Lord September 22, 2015 at 8:19 am -      #1076

    @Lowk

    “Nevermind the fact that his hand wasn’t stationary in front of the gun to simply block the bullets.”

    It does not have to be. As you said the bullets are not all going in one direction so him snatching his hand around is giving him more chances of snagging bullets.

    “All you really have is a maybe that is contradicted by the visuals.”

    No nothing is contradicted. You say yourself his hand moving about may end up just knocking bullets about. Also you give the animators too much credit, the thugs were fireing their guns for seconds at a time into that police vehicle and although the glass was already broken during the whole scene there was a lot of glass already left that should laso break.

    “Then there is the fact that his fingers would have to move fast enough to close around”

    No as i said, snatching. His fingers are already closed. He is essentially scooping them out of the air.

    “. Considering humans reflexes that would still put him well above human speeds.”

    I do not deny he is above human speed. Just not as fast as the fans try and wank him by trying to calculate bullet speed at that range. If he cought it at a few dozen meters away and still got all the bullets. E.g. if he had to physically move his hand more than a few inches and instead a few meters I would be more impressed.

    “Plus there’s Raditz who is now so far down the ranks t”

    Yeah well, rank does not mean everything. Another case of just checking trajectory.

    “Your downplay is almost equivalent”

    It is just a case of not being as impressed by scenes, people do not seem to understand bullet timing and feats anyway nor consider the factors I am like trajectory. If that farmer raditz is being aimed at shot him from behind and Raditz still caught it, more impressive. If the farmer was not so obvious in his intent and did not give Raditz any time to even consider the gun, his aim, his wavering finger shaking over the trigger etc…

    @Bullets

    “, but if you have to move it there then you’ll need to be fast enough to get to that position.”

    You simply have to be fast enough to move your fingers/hand a few inches or less while the bullet travels a few feet. With so many bullets flying as I said, hes bound to get some.

    @Soul

    “not what she was about to give him.”

    Same subject she is talking about though. “you can already” by sheer will alone, referring to his power to move objects. She then adds she is now allowing him to do so beyond touch, at a distance etc.

    Considering she says by sheer will alone, and the manuel says for TK that he just uses his mind their quite strongly connected and backing each other. It is essentially feigned ignorance if you pretend the end result is not Kain TKing by sheer will alone.

    ” means that his will is different and has power,”

    It means your reaching again. The fiction is literally saying he can cause change in physical objects through his whim…..that is it..a perfect exception to physics since will alone is enough for us to move objects.

    “and these things lead us to the conclusion that Kain uses energy. ”

    No it leads us to the conclusion that the player uses energy. Kain himself uses “sheer will alone” or “mind alone”, a lot of “alone” , added to this is the fact vampires can still think, like a lot of LoK supernatural beings while immaterial in the spectral/immaterial realm and this adds up.

    “hat means none of them can be singled out ”

    This is a case of silly buggering again, basically you ignore about 5/6+ defintions that deduce science as less of a factor yet because you can interpret one that may with some twists of wording mean science can be involved your case stands. Only because you claim it is old boy.

    ” I have correctly pointed out that it isn’t automatically outside of physics.”

    No you have pointed out that if you interpret things a certain way by using equivocation one outlier defintion may work in your favour in the face of all the others.

    ” Kain’s previous form of TK having limited range, ”

    Not TK. Whatever it was, he was tought a certain way and has not shown to do beyond contact movement until he got true TK form Seer.

    “, the manuals saying TK uses energy”

    in-game.

    “ight and apparently electrical emissions”

    Purely unproven assumptions.

    “Nothing supports your interpretation aside from”

    Aside from what Telekinesis actually is, the Seer, the manuels and the physics of what is happening.

    ” But however many definitions were to support your interpretation, ”

    They pretty much all do until you play silly buggers to try and twist the wording. Mental/spiritual powers twisted to just mean thinking to move, which you twist to mean telekeinsis could be done by any human thinking to move his own arm…

    Its just obtuse argument to the extreme like a man holding on to grim death on his sinking ship of an argument.

    “Nothing was understood by science before science found out how it worked”

    How it was understood by science you mean. How it actually works could be different to how we understand it by our science. We are not truly omniscient afterall. it is not like every scientific claim or discovery has been proven 100% correct and said views are never changed.

    “Instead of presenting real proof, you’re trying to say TK is supernatural (despite not having shown where Legacy of Kain calls it that) and then using a cherry-picked definition of that word, ignoring other definitions, to say TK has the properties you want it to have. This is obviously a terrible argument. Try another.”

    No I am using proof. The game itself is proof that the supernatural is thick in that game, its a dark fantasy full of magic and powers. So again, silly buggering about by pretending LoK is not supernatural or that supernatural powers are not connected is just daft deadlocking as usual, try another tactic souly.

    And I am not ignoring any defintions, I am ignoring how you pretend to claim what they mean. Every one brings up non physical, non material, spiritual, mental powers etc.

    ” I’m not. These claims do you no good. ”

    This is a claim your not corrupting it. I am claiming you are, but there is proof in my claim. The proof is your basically trying to suggest every feat has to be scientific, which is not true.

    “assumed to apply to fictional settings”

    Assumed to apply is not the same as “does apply” to all things in said fiction.

    “-It is possible for TK to function within physics,”

    But it is not. There is no energy that works like you claim Kains does, there is no energy that randomly changes level of power while going through physical objects just to gain power when reaching one someone wants it to. Someone willing objects to move and break without physically touching it is unprecedented in physics.

    “You made up an arbitrary rule, namely that it is impossible for different types of energy to carry more power than known types. This is false.”

    It is not arbitrary. It is impossible for something to carry X power and yet not apply said power to a physical object at one point and not to another.

    “Yes I do. Magnetic fields. Imagine this on a bigger scale.”

    I just did imagine it. By this logic the target should be attracted to Kain as he uses this energy (does not happen), and Kain should be attracted to the target. Or, to use the blood example, Kain and the blood should meet in the middle, this does not happen. Or the mans flesh should still break like the can, it does not until the blood itself gets pulled out.

    “One that affects certain substances more than others”

    Reaching to the extreme again. What substances? both the mans flesh and his blood are physical substances, as is the wall between Kain and his target. Yet the same energy is used to break such objects when Kain wants to….

    Again, things breaking in accordance with his will.

    “For some substances the effect is negligible.”

    In this case, it just so happens by coincidence to be based purely on Kains will whether hte effect is negligible or not, not because of some energy and how it works.

    “Neither do insects.”


    insects cannot apparently direct energy at a distance, phasing through different objects on a whim and what not….

    “There’s no proof that TK energy travels at the speed of light.”

    It is masless and non material. So yes it travels at the speed of light, just like all massless energy waves.

    “So far he can TK at several dozen feet.”

    If hes using energy saying “he can TK at several dozen feet” means nothing, energy has no range, if he had a telescope he should be able to TK at a light year away, only it would take a year assuming this energy traveled.

    ” I’m saying physics apply by default, and nothing proves that TK is an exception”

    You saying it unfortunately does not make it true. Just like I am sure you would agree me just saying it is an exception is not true it is. Luckily, unlike you I am not just deadlocking the thread without evidence, I have manuels, character statements and the fact that this is a supernatural, fantasy universe supporting me, not to mention how we see it work which makes no sense in physics.

    “’m defending the simple and entirely reasonable position of “physics are a thing, so prove that TK ignores range.””

    That is not a reasonable position. Just because physics is a thing does not make TK part of physics but on top of that, even within physics not everything is limited by range. Some forces just “are”

    “Energy travels. In other words, effects travel”

    You never have proven that Kain would “have to” (you merely claimed it) actually send energy from himself to the target. And even if energy travels, you never did provide proof why this suddenly has relevance to range.

    “Physical objects don’t slow down and stop moving just because they have mass; it’s because some of their momentum is transferred to objects they push against as they move”

    They slow down because their an actual physical object being slowed by something else impacting them. Energy being a non material/abstract medium is not under the same rule. Hence why a wave of light unless something specifically hits it or it hits something changes it.

    “how far it can travel is a valid question for this reason.”

    Not witihn the realms of the 100 meters in this thread. Only in the realm of maybe planetary distances.

    “It does not work exactly the same as any energy I know of. It’s a mystery.”

    The whole thing is a mystery, including whether it is really energy at all. What is not a mystery is that Kain using will alone or his mine alone can move things, just because he wants them to or even make things shatter.

    The fact a humans blood flows according to his whim as soon as he wills it without this energy piercing his chest, even though the resulting energy of the blood moving tears the man open makes energy movement unlikely. Same with the stone pillars, Kain can make them shake as if the entire thing is shaking with force, or shatter them as one. Again, unlike energy impacting something.

    “There is not a single thing I could ever do to take away a character’s displayed abilities.”

    You can make up countless interpretations on how they work or how the final effect was made.

    ” The issue is Kain hasn’t displayed the ability to TK at any distance as long as he can perceive the target.”


    This was not even an issue until you claimed it was, and have yet to prove it is a valid issue or question. So yes, you could bring up something random like this for any power.

    “What I do get to say, am saying, and is dictated by the rules:”

    The rules do not say distance is always a factor or should be.

    “This has been your burden of proof from the start. You tried to shift it to us and make us prove that distance is a factor to be considered. You are the one that must prove it isn’t a factor. You must prove how TK works, because you are claiming it works in a way that makes distance irrelevant.”

    No, all I need to proof is that Kain can TK, which he can. You then argue the distance which as I have covered countless times is when burdon of proof starts on whether or not distance is even relevant. You have yet to prove this. In addition, range being relevant since that is your argument.

    Also I do not have to prove it isnt a factor, that is a negative. Prove your positive first.

    We know how Tk works, we know Kain wills and an object changes state.

    @Ptaine

    “So, sound doesn’t have a limited range?”

    No you can be anywhere in the universe and as long as particles can vibrate and there is actually something that creates sound you can hear it.

    “– TK is immaterial. As in not a tangible object. Much like sound.”

    “So from these definitions, and a clear example, we come to the conclusion that the possibility exists that TK is limited by range because it can be described in the physical realm despite its “nonphysicalness.” MUCH. LIKE. SOUND.”

    Problem is this is all filled full of half truths. You omit the fact that sound itself may be immaterial but what allows someone to hear a sound is not. It requires/consists of particle vibrations.

    “I called you an ass, not because”

    As I said I do not give a damn about childish name calling. If you cannot debate civilly maybe BankGambling is not for you?

    “and how the example of sound represents the idea I am conveying to you.”

    Sound is either a non physical concept that our minds make sense of thanks to the physical vibrations of particles or it is the physical vibrations of particles. The former has no connection or aid to your argument, the latter view invalidates your point because in that case sound is what we call particles vibrating, e.g. not immaterial.

    Also Mea covers this at #1074, just because you cannot hold something does not mean it is immaterial or not tangible. To be truly untangible you would need something that nothing can touch at all, maybe not even made of atoms.

    ” It literally isn’t simply his hand glowing.”

    This is the thing. Yes it is, his hand is glowing. Your calling the spark lightning because you can somehow connect it to energy or w/e or something that travels is just you reaching. You can pause it at any scene and we can see that the spark your talking about appears briefly sometimes when he Tks and not at others, and at no point does it connect with the object.

    A graphical effect to show Kain is Tking is useless to you unless you can prove it is actually lightning or w/e.

    “We’ve already covered that energy is an abstract quantity, and I’ve already discussed that energy is not material because I can’t hold it in my hand”


    Yeah this is just ignorance of what is and is not physical or material. And although energy itself may be abstract, the things that carry energy can be perceived in some form.

    “therefore distance would be a limiting factor”

    Yes you are cherry picking. Because your ignoring the fact that energy itself, being abstract is not limited by range. It does not even have a body so do not pretend to scale it in accordance ith distance.

    “then his new power doesn’t use will alone, per the seer, since she changed the perameters of what he could do.”

    Only concerning the distance. She outlines how he can already move objects by sheer will. She then adds that the difference between that previous power and the one she is about to give is that he can now do so at a distance.

    “The addition by defiance provides that answer. Force. Which is projected by energy, NOT the mind.”

    You say this even though the game itself says it is the mind. The mind is somehow applying force, do not question the fiction. This is afterall a fantasy setting and on top of that, a fantasy supernatural power that is a non physical, spiritual/mental medium by defintion so it is hardly surprising.

    “Essentially, Soulerous provided several examples of energy going through objects without affecting them.”

    Which is not what TK does, it can shatter the same objects on Kains whim that it passes through before. It can go through skin then suddenly break it, it is essentially applying a “force” where Kain wants it. Whether that is inide a man, throughout a structure or into one it does not matter.

    “ince we have very little knowledge about HOW this Telekinetic force is applied, ”

    No, you have no knowledge because you refuse to accept the games answer which is through Kains mind and will alone. But because that is not useful to you, because that ruins your argument concerning moving energy or range limits which are not even implied even if it did move energy around you want to pretend you have a middle ground of just saying “we do not know” when clearly we do, it is just not conveniant for you.

    “Does this show absolutely that distance must be traveled? Not at all,”

    Nothing does, this is why this whole argument you and Soul are getting on as a tangent does not even lead to your eventual hope that you can claim that distance is a factor. And still uselessly deadlocks the thread.

    As I will say in every post, I have covered the content of this thread at post #258 on page 3, just in case anyone actually wants to argue some factors relevant to the thread.

  77. ptaine September 22, 2015 at 8:37 am -      #1077

    @Mea ““Being incapable of holding something doesn’t mean it’s not physical.” –It does in the sense Ptaine meant it. I think he knows that gases are physical.
    .
    Pretty much this. See: Physical: of or relating to things perceived through the senses as opposed to the mind; tangible or concrete. Tangible: able to be touched or felt……capable of being perceived especially by the sense of touch. Concrete: to form into a solid mass…….existing in a material or physical form; real or solid; not abstract.
    .
    A literal translation I have of nonphysical is not touching something, so not holding something is an extension of that idea. Air is a perfect example for the idea I’m presenting. Yes, I know it’s there because it’s made of molecules so it is literally physical in that sense, but because I can’t hold it or touch it, air isn’t a physical thing in another sense.
    .
    An example for that idea: If I punch someone, that is physical contact. If I punch someone from 10 feet away and impart the same amount of force, that is nonphysical contact because I am not touching them.

  78. Kitten Lord September 22, 2015 at 8:52 am -      #1078

    Your examples do not make any sense. What do you mean imparting force from 10 feet away from a punch?

    “A literal translation I have of nonphysical is not touching something, so not holding something is an extension of that idea. ”

    Just because you cannot touch it does not mean it cannot be touched or held. And some things you can touch may not be so obvious as a punch to the face.

  79. ptaine September 22, 2015 at 10:17 am -      #1079

    “No you can be anywhere in the universe and as long as particles can vibrate and there is actually something that creates sound you can hear it.”
    .
    False: Sound waves lose energy as they travel. That’s why we can only hear things so far and why sounds travel less well on blustery days (when the wind dissipates their energy) than on calm ones.
    .
    “Problem is this is all filled full of half truths. You omit the fact that sound itself may be immaterial but what allows someone to hear a sound is not. It requires/consists of particle vibrations.”
    .
    Your lack of comprehension doesn’t equate to half-truths. I cannot see sound. According to you I cannot see TK. You don’t see the connection here?
    .
    “This is the thing. Yes it is, his hand is glowing. Your calling the spark lightning because you can somehow connect it to energy or w/e or something that travels is just you reaching. You can pause it at any scene and we can see that the spark your talking about appears briefly sometimes when he Tks and not at others, and at no point does it connect with the object.”
    .
    Your missing the point Kitten Lord. If what you said is true, ie distance is not traveled and is not a factor, there are things I would expect to see. What I wouldn’t expect to see is Kain raise his hand, I wouldn’t expect his hand to glow, I wouldn’t expect anything to emit from his hand at all, I wouldn’t expect the object to glow, and I wouldn’t expect Kain’s action to mimic what is happening, ie moving his hand to the left for throwing the staff and hand clenching for choking…….You said that nothing in the game indicates distance is traveled and that all these things are is visual indicators put in by the creator to simply indicate that he is doing TK. You can’t prove that though because when I see these things they indicate to me the possibility that distance is traveled and these visual indicators are there because there is energy transfer.
    .
    Here is the part you are failing to understand though, I am not attempting to prove that these things are ABSOLUTELY indicative of energy transfer. You, however, are telling me that there is no way possible that these things COULD POSSIBLY indicate energy transfer. If you are really claiming that, you are wrong.
    .
    “Yes you are cherry picking. Because your ignoring the fact that energy itself, being abstract is not limited by range. It does not even have a body so do not pretend to scale it in accordance ith distance.”
    .
    Of course energy is limited by range.
    .
    “Only concerning the distance. She outlines how he can already move objects by sheer will. She then adds that the difference between that previous power and the one she is about to give is that he can now do so at a distance.”
    .
    Why are you being so logically inconsistent. Either distance is a factor for TK because it was before, or Kain doesn’t use will for TK. You can’t have it both ways Kitten. Unless there is something else that states that TK isn’t limited by distance or that TK uses will.
    .
    “You say this even though the game itself says it is the mind. The mind is somehow applying force, do not question the fiction.”
    .
    I am going by the Defiance manual which is current incarnation, so if you literally think that the mind is the medium through which TK functions, what I read in Defiance contradicts that because I see that energy is the medium. But, the bottom line is that I never did interpret the Blood Omen 2 manual how you are. It’s that simple.
    .
    “Which is not what TK does, it can shatter the same objects on Kains whim that it passes through before. It can go through skin then suddenly break it, it is essentially applying a “force” where Kain wants it. Whether that is inide a man, throughout a structure or into one it does not matter”
    .
    Another Cherrypicking of my post where I literally state this in the same paragraph which you incidentally left out of what you quoted in the response:
    .
    “Since we have very little knowledge about HOW this Telekinetic force is applied, a possible interpretation we arrive at is that this Telekinetic Energy travels through objects because they are not targeted, for some unknown reason, and we have real life examples that support the ability of energy to do such a thing.
    .
    Telling me, “not shattering objects then shattering those same objects,” ignores what I said, and ignores what we have as proof. And when I include that notion in my response to you, responding in the exact same manner does not prove or disprove anything.
    .
    “No, you have no knowledge because you refuse to accept the games answer which is through Kains mind and will alone.”
    .
    No, WE have no knowledge because the game only shows us Kain TKing. You’ve interpreted what you see, the definitions, and manuals in a certain way, but those are in no way conclusive. At no point does the game say that Kain’s TK has unlimited range. At no point does the game say that TK is a supernatural power that ignores our physics. At no point does the game explicitly state anything that you’ve claimed as an absolute.
    .
    The point is that the same exact evidence you are using to prove your point is not unequivocal. I can legitimately interpret that same evidence differently than you which means that you cannot state anything ABSOLUTELY without providing further evidence supporting your position. Simply stating, “No, it’s not a legitimate interpretation” without providing further evidence does nothing, which I assume is what you are going to do.
    .
    “Your examples do not make any sense. What do you mean imparting force from 10 feet away from a punch?”
    .
    If I punch a person that is 10 feet away without making any physical contact and they fall over from the force of the punch.
    .
    “Just because you cannot touch it does not mean it cannot be touched or held. And some things you can touch may not be so obvious as a punch to the face.”
    .
    This is precisely my point Kitten Lord…..

  80. Friendlysociopath September 22, 2015 at 1:08 pm -      #1080

    So how many characters has Kitten downplayed to say they can’t bullet-time now? Dante, Cloud, Zack, Roshi, Raditz, Goku, Gohan- it’s almost like he deliberately misunderstands feats to make characters appear weaker for some reason.

    Also, only counter required against Kitten Lord’s claim of TK not traveling and not being visible.
    www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_gSZlNqNQo

  81. Ninja Lowk September 22, 2015 at 2:20 pm -      #1081

    “It does not have to be. As you said the bullets are not all going in one direction so him snatching his hand around is giving him more chances of snagging bullets.”

    You mean like someone who is catching bullets would do?
    ===
    “No nothing is contradicted. You say yourself his hand moving about may end up just knocking bullets about”

    Which didn’t happen or was even hinted at happaning.
    ===
     Also you give the animators too much credit, the thugs were fireing their guns for seconds at a time into that police vehicle and although the glass was already broken during the whole scene there was a lot of glass already left that should laso break.

    There is no evidence either shown or implied that a bullet passed him or were deflected away. Not even bullet holes which they’ve shown to do.
    Plus being able to move his hand fast enough to smack bullets would still mean his reflexes were capable of moving his arm around within the millisecond time frame to strike bullets. Normal human reflexes aren’t fast enough to rapidly change direction to hit a bullet.
    ===
    “No as i said, snatching. His fingers are already closed. He is essentially scooping them out of the air.”

    His hands are shown being open and closed, rinse repeat. His hand don’t stay closed or cupped this entire time he is catching bullets. So that little theory is busted.
    ===
    “Just not as fast as the fans try and wank him by trying to calculate bullet speed at that range. ”

    So I was right, you are some sort of nega-fanboy. Your just as bad as actual fanboys only in reverse.
    Its not wank when its shown actually shown. Again all you have is assumptions about things that are not shown or implied to happen with no actual proof.
    ===
    “Yeah well, rank does not mean everything.”

    In DB it kind of does. As much as I hate the powerscaling, “training” can exponentially enhance one’s abilities past what they were capable of in the last arc; including speed. And they’ve been doing a lot of that to the point they’ve vaguely gotten faster. So at base the saiyans at least would be at his level. Especially since a few of the Z fighter’s train to move quicker in enhanced gravity.
    ===
    “Another case of just checking trajectory.”


    He caught the bullet after it was fired. His hand had to move faster then the bullet. Regardless of how, the fact remains the gun was fired and his hand was still to his side.
    ===
    “It is just a case of not being as impressed by scenes, people do not seem to understand bullet timing and feats anyway nor consider the factors I am like trajectory.”

    If anything your implying that in addition to bullet timing reflexes he can visually do the math for a weapon there is no evidence of him ever working with. Then applying it, taking into factors like the farmers nervousness and the recoil that would have thrown his aim off.
    ===
    I’ve seen a lot of bs claims or jokes for Dragonball. Them not having bullet timing reflexes is right up there with cell being a solar system buster.

  82. Soulerous September 22, 2015 at 6:15 pm -      #1082

    Same subject she is talking about though.
    -But not the same words applied to both subjects. She said “you can already do this with this, but now you’ll be able to do this.”
    ~
    It is essentially feigned ignorance if you pretend the end result is not Kain TKing by sheer will alone.
    -Kain uses will by necessity. He’s using his mind, taking conscious action, so therefore he’s using his will. This is simply not proven by what the seer said, which was specific to the smaller-range power. You’ve used the wrong argument for why Kain uses will.
    ~
    Not TK. Whatever it was, he was tought a certain way and has not shown to do beyond contact movement
    -He had to touch objects with his hand, or another body part, in order to impart force?
    ~
    in-game.
    -It doesn’t say in-game. Saying TK energy exists is not a mechanic, just as saying rocks exist is not a mechanic. The mechanics are how they function in the game according to the coding. TK energy is a thing either way. What you need to prove otherwise is for the manual to also say “TK energy was made only for gameplay purposes.” Do you have that?
    ~
    Purely unproven assumptions.
    -No, it is a true fact that there is both light and apparently electrical emissions when Kain uses telekinesis. Why these things are present is where assumptions come in.
    ~
    Its just obtuse argument to the extreme like a man holding on to grim death on his sinking ship of an argument.
    -I could say that’s a good way to describe your position, but that would be just as futile as you writing this in the first place.
    ~
    How it actually works could be different to how we understand it by our science.
    -Potentially, but usually we call those scientific theories, separate from scientific facts. We could also be plugged into the Matrix, for that matter. I have faith that we are not. I take it you concede to the point I was making, as you chose to comment on my choice of words rather than argue against it. I’m so glad.
    ~
    pretending LoK is not supernatural
    And I am not ignoring any defintions, I am ignoring how you pretend
    -You produce an awful lot of commentary on what you think we’re doing instead of actually arguing. Your posts are riddled with it. Have you found that it helps you?
    ~
    The proof is your basically trying to suggest every feat has to be scientific, which is not true.
    -I’m suggesting that every feat must be quantified with physics taken into account. Unless, of course, there is proof that a specific rule doesn’t apply. I cannot, for example, say that a superhero’s flight or super strength is definitely and absolutely functioning according to normal physics; I would be writing fan-fiction at that point, because the fiction never tells us that. But I can most certainly use physics as a base for quantifying that flight or strength. That’s what the rule says.
    ~
    Assumed to apply is not the same as “does apply” to all things in said fiction.
    -Of course not. It means physics does apply until the fiction says it doesn’t.
    ~
    insects cannot apparently direct energy at a distance, phasing through different objects on a whim and what not….
    -But they do function within physics despite having no idea about them, quantum theory, or radiation. So I’m wondering why you said “The characters are in a medieval setting and use magic and supernatural powers, they have no idea about quantum theory, physics and radiation.”
    ~
    energy has no range
    -Yeah, it does. If something travels, it has range. This includes light. And not all energy travels in a straight path, as I showed you with the example of magnetic fields.
    ~
    Not witihn the realms of the 100 meters in this thread.
    -Yes, within exactly those realms. You keep trying to apply all the properties of electromagnetic energy to TK energy. I’ve already told you that’s invalid. You would need proof for that.
    ~
    This was not even an issue until you claimed it was, and have yet to prove it is a valid issue or question. So yes, you could bring up something random like this for any power.
    -That is precisely what we always do in debates. Only it isn’t random, it’s part of physics. And it was also an issue before I brought it up, you just weren’t aware of it.
    ~
    There is no energy that works like you claim Kains does, there is no energy that randomly changes level of power while going through physical objects just to gain power when reaching one someone wants it to.
    -I never suggested it changes power. I suggested it doesn’t have to affect everything. And again, a new type of energy does not break any laws of physics. Neither does a new type of ore, or a new plane of existence.
    ~
    It is not arbitrary.
    -Yes it is, because there is no law of physics stating bodiless energy cannot be strong enough to move large objects. Meaning I don’t have to show you examples of bodiless energy that can do so, which I have done anyway.
    ~
    It is impossible for something to carry X power and yet not apply said power to a physical object at one point and not to another.
    -Magnetism can apply power to physical objects through physical barriers without applying power to those barriers on any significant or visible level.
    ~
    By this logic the target should be attracted to Kain as he uses this energy (does not happen), and Kain should be attracted to the target.
    -No, I did not say Kain actually uses magnetism. I said bodiless energy can move objects. So when you say “by this logic,” you are misrepresenting me. I never offered that logic. There is no electromagnetic force at work here, and no reason to think Kain would have to be attracted to his target if he uses energy.
    ~
    both the mans flesh and his blood are physical substances
    -As are paper and iron. We know they can be affected differently.
    ~
    Yet the same energy is used to break such objects when Kain wants to
    -And photons can burn paper or pass straight through iron at different frequencies.
    ~
    Nothing you say is going to show that TK can’t work within physics. Even if you show me an example of it affecting an iron ball inside of an iron box without affecting the box. Even then, the energy could be traveling from Kain into a parallel dimension, through that dimension into the corresponding space of our dimension, and back into it to arrive precisely at the target. Or two different forms of TK energy could be projected, passing through everything until the beams intersect and react with each other, thus producing force at the target location without affecting anything else. So many things are possible in the universe. And yes, it could even be an entirely mystical type of energy that behaves in supernatural ways yet still travels through space. Personally, I think that’s the most likely.
    ~
    But none of this matters, because I’m not saying “Rule 12 is a thing, so we know TK functions within physics.” That is not the case. I’m saying “Rule 12 is a thing, so you have to prove energy is not used.” Because if we don’t know that energy absolutely is not used, then the extent of our knowledge is that it may or may not be used.
    ~
    Get it? I’m blatantly making up ways for how TK can work within physics, and you are blatantly making up the theory that it doesn’t. But I’m not saying my way is factual, while you are saying your way is. All you have for this is the text “only his mind,” which has multiple interpretations, not just the one you find appealing.
    ~
    You then argue the distance which as I have covered countless times is when burdon of proof starts on whether or not distance is even relevant.
    -You have to prove it isn’t relevant, because the default is that it is, not that it isn’t. The ability either works within physics or without. When we have two possibilities, those being that distance is a limiting factor or that it isn’t, you have to confirm one of those possibilities in order to use it for a feat.
    ~
    basically you ignore about 5/6+ defintions that deduce science as less of a factor yet because you can interpret one that may with some twists of wording mean science can be involved your case stands.
    -There’s more than one definition that doesn’t support you, and no twisting of words involved on my end.
    ~
    Merriam-Webster Dictionary: “The production of motion in objects (as by a spiritualistic medium) without contact or other physical means.” Fits into science.
    ~
    The Free Dictionary: “The supposed inducement of movement of an object by mental or spiritual power.” Fits into science, for neither power is necessarily outside it.
    “The movement of a body caused by thought or willpower without the application of a physical force.” Fits into science when “physical” means “material.”
    “The production of motion in a body, apparently without the use of material force.”
    Fits into science.
    ~
    Oxford Dictionaries: “The supposed ability to move objects at a distance by mental power or other nonphysical means.” Same as the above examples.
    ~
    Wordnik has more. In fact, I cannot see any definitions that explicitly say the power works outside of physics. You would have to prove that “physical” is used in the most general sense rather than the common, material sense. Which you can’t prove, of course.
    ~
    I don’t know why you think you can favor one possibility over another. I don’t know why you struggle with the fact that all valid interpretations are equal. But you will keep struggling with it. You aren’t the one special exception.
    ~
    The fiction is literally saying he can cause change in physical objects through his whim…..that is it.
    -The fiction says he accomplishes something with only his mind, yes. There are multiple equal interpretations to be had from this. Yours is not greater than mine, despite what you believe.
    ~
    No you have pointed out that if you interpret things a certain way by using equivocation one outlier defintion may work in your favour in the face of all the others.
    -Nope. You have “pointed out” that if you interpret things a certain way by using confirmation bias, specific definitions may work in your favor in the face of all the others. You are the one who is claiming to know how TK works. I’m not. You claimed that TK is automatically outside of physics. I have correctly pointed out that it isn’t. I don’t have to favor the interpretation opposite yours in order to point out that you are, in fact, favoring an interpretation.

  83. Batz September 22, 2015 at 10:36 pm -      #1083

    Alright, let’s indulge Kitten for a moment and pretend that Kain can pop everyone on the list with blood like a grape.
    What’s stopping Kid Buu from (metaphorically) telling Kain to go fuck himself and doing the same to Earth?
    I’m guessing precisely dick, since Buu doesn’t have blood.

  84. Friendlysociopath September 22, 2015 at 11:08 pm -      #1084

    What’s stopping Kid Buu from (metaphorically) telling Kain to go fuck himself and doing the same to Earth?

    Actually if you go to the thread where Kitten came up with this idea- he was thinking Kain would throw them into the sun… cause he had proof Kain would do that.
    Alternatively, Soul Reaver Soul Rape.

  85. Batz September 22, 2015 at 11:57 pm -      #1085

    “he was thinking Kain would throw them into the sun… ”
    I’m assuming he had no evidence that Kain’s TK can push something/reach 92.96 million miles away from him, right?
    “Soul Reaver soul rape”
    I just got the image of Buu turning it into chocolate. Thank you. Also, this implies Kain could catch Buu with it to begin with.
    It seems like a lot of this: 41.media.tumblr.com/3d138bd0b9768bda3aea3e82f4cceccc/tumblr_nrkefomm7j1sp54b0o5_1280.jpg
    is going on.

  86. AbsoluteZero September 23, 2015 at 1:08 am -      #1086

    “I’m assuming he had no evidence that Kain’s TK can push something/reach 92.96 million miles away from him, right?”

    Who needs evidence when you have confirmation bias?

  87. Soulerous September 24, 2015 at 12:45 pm -      #1087

    Look, Kitten Lord, this is how debates work:
    1) Positive claims are made in order to determine what a character can do.
    2) Positive claims have the burden of proof.
    3) Characters are considered to be incapable of feats that have not satisfied said burden.
    4) Normal logic and physics are used. This is an automatic assumption for any debate.
    5) Philosophical fallacies cannot be used to win an argument.
    ~
    Take the argument that TK has virtually unlimited range by default. That is a positive claim because it differs from how things in the universe work. Therefore the burden of proof is yours, and saying it isn’t is a fallacy.
    ~
    Then the argument that TK isn’t subject to the normal rules of the universe: This is also a positive claim. Things are subject to the rules of the universe by default. The burden of proof is therefore on you to show that TK is different, and it is a fallacy to shift that burden away from that claim.
    ~
    Next is the argument that TK is proven to not operate under physics because of it’s definition. This is a confirmation bias fallacy commonly called cherry-picking, because only select definitions support the aforementioned conclusion. Other definitions, which are perfectly valid, do no support the conclusion. No proof has been given that certain definitions are used over others. This means it’s an unknown variable, and unknown variables do not satisfy the burden of proof.
    ~
    Then the argument that TK’s effects prove it does not operate under physics because they are impossible within physics. Kain’s TK being impossible within physics is a positive statement requiring proof, which you cannot give because it is already true that energy can pass through material and affect objects on the other side.
    ~
    That argument is not the correct point of contention either way. It is whether energy is used that is the true question, not whether the energy obeys every law of physics. Because proof that certain laws are ignored is not proof that all laws are ignored, as Rule 12 explains. That would be a non sequitur fallacy.
    ~
    Lastly, the argument that TK uses only the mind and no energy, which means physics are ignored. Using “only the mind” does not mean no energy is used. That is an interpretation that relies on both of the following interpretations being false:
    A) The mind has energy.
    B) Only the mind is used for telekinesis in the same way that only my leg is used to kick a ball or a warrior can defeat an ogre with only a knife.
    Neither of these interpretations are proven to be false, and the interpretation that energy is not used is unproven. These multiple interpretations represent an unknown variable, which again, doesn’t satisfy the burden of proof. No proven exception to the rule that energy is the medium of change means it is a viable question whether it is canonically used.
    ~
    This debate should be as simple as this: We aren’t told exactly how TK works, therefore we can’t say it works in a way that allows it to do more than we’ve seen it do. Unconfirmed possibilities are not feats.

  88. Soulerous September 25, 2015 at 12:43 pm -      #1088

    I just remembered this great parallel:
    “Ner’zhul sent the plague of undeath, which had originated from deep within the Frozen Throne, out into the arctic wasteland. Controlling the plague with his will alone, he drove it straight into the human village.” -Warcraft III: Reign of Chaos Game Manual, page 34.
    ~
    It says the Lich King used will alone, yet I never argued his telekinesis to have unlimited range in my debate with Neon Lord. This is because energy is an automatic implication, and “will alone” is not sufficient to prove that distance isn’t a factor.
    ~
    Applying force to a target is physical, moving it is physical, and the means by which these things are caused are also physical. Physical in the broad sense of the word. “Will alone” does not exclude energy. I couldn’t make the argument, and neither can you, KL. Debates don’t work that way. One interpretation cannot be used merely because it’s possible. It has to be proven to be the correct interpretation. Not the most likely one, but explicitly the one and only correct one, regardless of likelihood.

  89. Kitten Lord September 26, 2015 at 8:22 am -      #1089

    @Ptaine

    “False: Sound waves lose energy as they travel.”

    Your source said exactly what I did. Sound itself happens anywhere vibrations of particles can reach your ear drums.

    “I cannot see sound. According to you I cannot see TK. You don’t see the connection here?”

    No because TK is not sound, particles are not vibrating, it is not even connected because it is immaterial.

    “You can’t prove that though because when I see these things they indicate to me the possibility that distance is traveled and these visual indicators are there because there is energy transfer.”

    You claiming him moving his hand must mean there is energy transfer does not suddenly mean there could be energy transfer or that it is likely because he moved his hand or his hand glowed.

    The BO 2 manuel and the Seer saying he uses only his mind to use telekinesis covers this, and how his hand moving is clearly simply personal habit.

    “If you are really claiming that, you are wrong.”

    How am I wrong beyond you just claiming I am? Your whole argument is one big non sequiter after another. Kains hand moves so this means energy transfer is happening with TK? this is completely without evidence.

    “You can’t have it both ways Kitten”

    You just cannot comprehend the sentence apparently. She merely nets the use of will as something he already does. The difference she outlines is how one cannot be used at distance and one can…

    The second one is TK and the first is not but both use only the will. And TK does have “only the mind” as its medium as per the manuel as well. All adds up.

    “I am going by the Defiance manual which is current incarnation”

    And does not counter anything from the previous manuels or fiction.

    ” I see that energy is the medium”

    You do not see it as the medium, you see that in-game the player has to consider TK energy, which is a bar on the HUD.

    “Telling me, “not shattering objects then shattering those same objects,” ignores what I said, ”

    I am ignoring it because that is not how energy works if it is travelling like your trying to reach for. If it can suddenly ignore space because Kain does not want it then that suggests even more no distance.

    “but those are in no way conclusive.”

    Yeah it is massively conclusive. We see what the manuels describe which is Kain wills, objects break/move. It is merely through reaching for this conclusion that you want to

    “. At no point does the game say that TK is a supernatural power that ignores our physics.”

    It does not have to directly state that. It states something that is already impossible, which by proxy gives it the exception to our physics which is people causing physical change merely on a whim.

    Physics does not also limit everything by distance. This has yet to be proven anyway.

    ” I can legitimately interpret that same evidence differently than you”

    problem is you cannot. Not without trying to twist words and meanings.

    “without providing further evidence does nothing,”

    Neither does affirming that you have another interpretation that is actually valid. Your interpretations are no more logical than me claiming Gohan was able to stop those bullets because they slowed down dramatically, the gun is underpowered and the bullets slowed enough before they hit him so he could catch them easily!

    Luckily for my opposition I am not going to play silly buggers as much as you and Soul love to do.

    @Friendly

    “Also, only counter required against Kitten Lord’s claim of TK not traveling and not being visible.”

    That is more proof for my side.

    @Lowk

    “Which didn’t happen”

    You do not have enough information to say it did not happen when we have a close up of his hand. In fact, that evidence suggests he did deflect many just by moving his hand around because when he opens his palms there are no bullets there.

    “on’t stay closed or cupped this entire time he is catching bullets. ”

    Which explains why until the end he has not caught all the bullets.

    ” Again all you have is assumptions about things that are not shown or implied to happen with no actual proof.”

    I could say the same for you. There is no actual proof of your interpretation over mine.

    “In DB it kind of does. As much as I hate the powerscaling,”

    Then do not use it. How fast they are is rarely if ever clear, same with how fast the higher tiers can move compared to the lower tiers. Beerus in Battle of the gods is subsonic for example even when trying.

    In the latest Super episodes, they still take a long time to fly anywhere. Like when he is descending on a small island.

    “the fact remains the gun was fired and his hand was still to his side.”

    Not the case with Gohan in this scene though. His hand was at his side but it did not have to travel the meters the bullet did.

    “Them not having bullet timing reflexes ”

    Its more not them having the reflexes and speeds claimed from said bullet timing. Bullet timing is not as impressive in some cases as it is in others. Dante for example moving his head to dodge a bullet fired behind him like he does in some scenes, or Vergil using his sword to catch bullets and line them up is more impressive than having some idiot just pointing a gun at you.

    @Soul

    “She said “you can already do this with this, but now you’ll be able to do this.”

    Wrong, she said “you can already do this (move objects through sheer will alone) but now you can do it at range”

    “He had to touch objects with his hand, or another body part, in order to impart force?”

    I am not sure about had to, but every instance of his old power was generally right on top of objects, or within millimeters of it. Like placing his hand on a box. It was like contact mental projection without having to use his muscle.

    ” Saying TK energy exists is not a mechanic,”

    It being described as part of a mechanic does. Every source in the manuel that states TK energy goes on to refer to the player, not Kain using it.

    “, it is a true fact that there is both light and apparently electrical emissions ”

    No, this is also an assumption.

    ” but that would be just as futile”

    It would be futile, it would be a petty “no you!”

    “you chose to comment on my choice of words rather than argue against it. ”

    Your choice of words implied you think your argueing facts as opposed to what our science understands. You do not understand the difference between the two. I need to know whether you think what our planterary organisation/race has found from our science could actually be argued as the universes laws or whether their just what we have come to the conclusion to.

    The end result is our physics in reality is just what we as humans agree to as a whole and what our scientists have come to an agreement/to a conclusion to, which is potentially different to what is actually the case.

    As you said, our universe could be completely different to what we belive and science on Quantum mechanics is making what some of our previous beliefs have come to more and more dubius. multiversies, alternate realities etc.

    “on what you think we’re doing instead of actually arguing”


    I could say the same about you and your bland commentary on what you think your doing.

    “. But I can most certainly use physics as a base for quantifying that flight or strength. That’s what the rule says.”

    Which is the same as ignoring how that superhero may be using said power. You essentially are writing fan fiction, same with TK, only worse concerning TK your ignoring the canon, the clear implications and the facts we have in favor of reaching for another conclusion which just happens to be invalid to boot.

    “So I’m wondering why you said”

    Because Kains power works on his whim, and destroys and reacts to objects based on your energy interpretation on his whim, if its based on his whim then how can he be using energy like your saying he is, if his energy is changing according to his whim based on what he is targeting?

    “f something travels, it has range. This includes light.”

    How does light have a maximum range? Can you show me this? as in, actual proof. At what point does light suddenly stop if it was flying through the void of space?

    “Yes, within exactly those realms. ”

    You have not proven this. What is hilarious is you pretend to be scientific about this by bringing up different types of energy but when it seems none of them suddenly stop dead at 100 meters or should do according to physics and none of them work like TK you fall flat.

    You then randomly claim just as before without proof 100 meters is a range.

    “Only it isn’t random, it’s part of physics. ”

    Prove it. Prove it is part of physics for TK to have X range limits?

    “-Magnetism can apply power to physical objects through physical barriers without applying power to those barriers on any significant or visible level.”

    Only blood is not attracted to magnets in such a way as Kain shows us so this whole magnetism theory is useless.

    “As are paper and iron. We know they can be affected differently.”

    But in Kains case only if he wants to. Hearkening back to the whole “by sheer will alone” thing from Blood omen.

    “. Even then, the energy could be traveling from Kain into a parallel dimension, through that dimension into the corresponding space of our dimension, and back into it to arrive precisely at the target. ”

    How would that limit its range if paralell dimensions are being used to supersede our space? Makes no sense…again, your assumption stacking. Is this even possible in accordance with physics?

    “be an entirely mystical type of energy that behaves in supernatural ways yet still travels through space. ”

    OR! here is a good one. Kain could just be moving/breaking objects through sheer will alone, like the game says…..not through sending energy.

    ” which has multiple interpretations, not just the one you find appealing.”

    Only his mind, combined with what the Seer says, what we see, which is essentially impossible leaps that energy in our universes has not done and the fact their in a supernatural universes all adds up to only one valid interpretation

    The whole, “i can interpret this X way” can be done for everything.

    ” because the default is that it is,”

    No rule states this.

    “Fits into science.”

    How does spiritualistic medium fit into science when science cannot and does not study spiritual mediums?

    “Fits into science.”

    Yet not when you consider what Kain does with is TK. If you want to argue non material, then your twisting the intention of the defintion because when it states “spiritual means” their clearly talking about mystism rather than energy. And if your talking about energy, you have yet provide proof that within science energy is arbitrarily limited by ranges within 100 meters, if it is limited at all.

    But you literally have to twist “without physical force” through an interpretation atop an assumption to get to the conclusion it means material, and does not literally mean what it says, without physical forces.

    “I don’t know why you think you can favor one possibility over another”

    That is just a lack of comprehension on your part, not a lack of covering why on my end. If you cannot understand why I would consider non physics when the fiction itself a supernatural one that outright states a being uses only his mind in both text from characters but as written in the manuels and also shows us he can just make things move despite no energy actually works like the way he uses his power then your lost just as much as your argument is.

    Course, I stand by the belief your just playing silly buggers,

    “There are multiple equal interpretations to be had from this. Yours is not greater than mine, despite what you believe.”

    And yours is not equel to mine despite what you belive. Your assumptions and interpretations spiral out of control into countless asumption after another.

    “You claimed that TK is automatically outside of physics. I have correctly pointed out that it isn’t.”

    You point out through as I said equivocation and twisting of words that you think it is not outside of physics. There is no energy that works like TK does. And there is no facts under physics that say it should be limited by range either.

    “Look, Kitten Lord, this is how debates work:”

    I can only suspect you will now start following said values then if you post them and join me in doing so? so let us start at part 1, proving your claim that TK has a range.

    “That is a positive claim because it differs from how things in the universe work.”

    No saying TK has a limited range is a positive claim. Which started with my opposition. And you have not proven TK has a limited range under physics either.

    “The burden of proof is therefore on you to show that TK is different,”

    Which is proven without a doubt since literally no energy works like your saying TK would if it traveleld as energy and how the characters and manuel support only his will is used. A specific statement of only will being used combined with the fact that he does impossible things with his powers with his whim proves this exception with far more precision than the rule your trying to twist to the extreme suggests with its example on speed and sonic booms.

    “because it is already true that energy can pass through material and affect objects on the other side.”

    Yeah this is a half truth fallacy. Energy can, but said energy does not work like Kains powers do and do not affect things on the other side in the way Kain does.

    “as Rule 12 explains. That would be a non sequitur fallacy.”

    Rule 12 does not explain that….what are you talking about? It does say exceptions occur, and that in this case we have many many exceptions to why TK does not work the way you think it should.

    “Neither of these interpretations are proven to be false”

    Their invalid by proxy, first because the mind is abstract, not some sort of energy contsruct or w/e your trying to reach for and secondly your being obtuse with your second invalid interpretation on moving your leg. In your example there, your not using only your mind, your using your mind to then move your leg.

    “We aren’t told exactly how TK works”

    We are though. We are told explicitly that through sheer will alone Kain causes change. That is all we need. It just so happens this does not help the case your trying to ply, but as I told and corrected Ptaine on, you cannot just start applying things because you do not like it.

    So we are back to square one as I outlined pages and pages ago. Go and prove TK has a limited range by default, a range limited by 100 meters.

    Stop dodging burden of proof.

    “Applying force to a target is physical, moving it is physical, and the means by which these things are caused are also physical.”

    I am arguing over whether the target itself is under physical forces. I know this is the case, but instead how you think TK should be interpreted or can be. I am not going to argue with the game which says through “will alone so I wll not add variables.

    “Debates don’t work that way. One interpretation cannot be used merely because it’s possible.”

    Oh I abide by this more than most if not all, but when an interpretation is all but outright stated by the fiction, if not shown to be the correct one and another interpretation would be clearly ignoring the series, the fiction and its setting etc as well as developer intent then you know the first one is the case and the latter may not even be valid at all.

    This is the case with your interpretations. I gave a good example with ptaine, here;

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qk2oRCFzf9g&feature=youtu.be

    What is wrong with an interpretation that suggests perhaps this gun is under powered and the bullets lose velocity significantly when fired? or that Gohans ki field slows the bullets down enough for him to catch them, since we know ki can cause effects to physical objects near the saiyan using it, Goku even brought several rocks around him when he fought Frieza and they floated about him as he moved for a time.

    Or we could assume the gun has some heavier and therefore slower rounds near the end of the cartridge…that is not “impossible!”

    I could probably come up with countless interpretations and say their valid like you and Ptaine. Some of them are invalid perhaps like yours are, some may be perfectly valid like the above samples, but this is ignoring the intent here just like you are ignoring intent.

    Course, if i wanted to be as obtuse and facetious about every debate and feat like you are I would have lots of fun crushing peoples claims even more without even trying to debate the fiction and instead countless interpretations. Maybe I should do what I will in the future call a “soulerous” and ask for explicit statements fro mthe fiction for every metal, material and function of every round or gun used. Every feat of energy…

  90. Kitten Lord September 26, 2015 at 8:30 am -      #1090

    @Batz

    “I just got the image of Buu turning it into chocolate. Thank you. Also, this implies Kain could catch Buu with it to begin with.”

    Forgot you sorry.

    This is easy, just because Buu does not have blood, true this saves him from dying from blood control like most of the cast wailing like pigs in agony but instead can still be controlled by TK, his body can be held and Kain can then casually soul rape from a telepor strike.

    OR, as I said, launched to the sun. You know, there is no friction in space, not as much gravity on earth either. So Kain massive TK power would be able to increas Buus velocity again and again without much reduction until he is hurtling towards the sun bound in a TK net, unable to do anything.

    Freeze him in time and mind rape him into a stupour for good measure.

    Course, as I keep having to point out I have covered all these arguments and this thread in my super post at post 3. I actually covered Buu and Cells strengths against blood control.

  91. Numinous One September 26, 2015 at 5:04 pm -      #1091

    “So Kain massive TK power would be able to increas Buus velocity again and again without much reduction until he is hurtling towards the sun bound in a TK net, unable to do anything.”

    Kinda seems like you’re forgetting your own arguments here.
    How good is Kain’s eyesight?

  92. Soulerous September 26, 2015 at 5:08 pm -      #1092

    Wrong, she said “you can already do this (move objects through sheer will alone) but now you can do it at range”
    -You’re interpreting it differently. “You can manipulate objects already by sheer will alone. But as you were taught, you can only use this ability at close range. By drinking my blood, you will be granted the gift of Telekinesis. You will be able to manipulate objects at a great distance.
    ~
    As you can see, there is mention of “sheer will” in the italicized part, but not in the bolded part. The italicized defines a power, the manipulation of objects by will at close range. The bolded defines a power (called by a different name, telekinesis) which is the manipulation of objects at longer range with no mention of will. Although the seer could have meant to apply her “will” comment to both parts, it is not necessarily true that she did. She could have also said “sheer will alone” in relation to the italicized ability only. Because of this, her words do not prove that the bolded ability works by sheer will alone.
    ~
    In the same way, your interpretation of what “only his mind” means is not necessarily correct. Energy is normally required to do anything, which means his mind may consist wholly or partially of energy, which would explain how it’s able to affect things while preserving physics.
    ~
    Only his mind, combined with what the Seer says, what we see, which is essentially impossible leaps that energy in our universes has not done and the fact their in a supernatural universes all adds up to only one valid interpretation
    -False. Telekinesis using energy is a valid interpretation. That energy functioning within physics is possible, and it functioning without some physics but still with distance as a factor is possible as well.
    ~
    No rule states this.
    -Physics states that distance is a factor, and Rule 12 states physics is used to quantify feats unless there is a proven exception.
    ~
    How does spiritualistic medium fit into science when science cannot and does not study spiritual mediums?
    -Since it cannot be studied, at least not yet, you cannot say it is definitely out of physics. So when several definitions mention spiritual power, you cannot use that as proof that telekinesis is outside of physics. So to answer your question, a spiritualistic medium fits into science because it has not been defined. In fact, it can be defined in dozens of different ways, depending on what people believe.
    ~
    If you want to argue non material, then your twisting the intention of the defintion because when it states “spiritual means” their clearly talking about mystism rather than energy.
    -Clearly talking about mysticism rather than energy? What fact makes it clear that spiritual means cannot be spiritual energy? Since you’re telling me what spiritual means are, tell me how you gained this knowledge.
    ~
    But you literally have to twist “without physical force” through an interpretation atop an assumption to get to the conclusion it means material, and does not literally mean what it says, without physical forces.
    -I have to acknowledge that the word “physical” can mean one of two things. You’re trying to make it mean “having to do with the physical universe,” when it could easily mean “material.” Speaking of which, this still exists: “The production of motion in a body, apparently without the use of material force.” That definition has not gone away. So the definitions of telekinesis are definitely not proof that it works outside of physics. Please accept that and move past your definition argument.
    ~
    Go and prove TK has a limited range by default, a range limited by 100 meters.
    -Let’s get this straight. The initial positive claim is that Kain’s TK is not limited by distance. You say this is proven by it working outside of physics. That means the new positive claim is that it works outside of physics, which is what you and I are arguing about. So don’t tell me to prove TK is limited by range by default; just focus on whether your proof actually confirms that TK is not bound by the laws of physics, and if so, which ones are proven to be excepted. That is the main issue.
    ~
    I am arguing that your proof is inadequate to show that any laws of physics are ignored because the words “using only his mind” as well as “sheer will alone” (if I were to accept that, which I don’t) do not explicitly state that laws of physics are ignored. Rather than directly stating such a thing, the words imply multiple possibilities. Your conclusion is one of those possibilities. Ptaine and I recognize that you have not invalidated the others. So tell us why the interpretations that we say are possible aren’t.

  93. Friendlysociopath September 26, 2015 at 5:56 pm -      #1093

    Telekinesis using energy is a valid interpretation.

    Sorry to burst your bubble but no, it is not a valid interpretation.

    As the game itself states, that is “the” valid interpretation; TK uses energy both as its fuel and for its effect. It requires energy for it to be used and it works by manipulating energy.
    There is no evidence for any other conclusion given in the game.

  94. Amm0vamp1r3 September 26, 2015 at 6:10 pm -      #1094

    Slightly off topic, but I saw the Goku vs Frieza fight recently where they both showed their new power levels and wow. DBZ looks like its about to get another leap in power soon

  95. Soulerous September 26, 2015 at 6:33 pm -      #1095

    Sorry to burst your bubble but no, it is not a valid interpretation.
    ~
    That’s a strange way of agreeing with me.

  96. Friendlysociopath September 26, 2015 at 7:01 pm -      #1096

    That’s a strange way of agreeing with me.

    Friendlysociopath, at your service.

  97. Mea quidem sententia September 26, 2015 at 9:41 pm -      #1097

    Photons can travel great distances in a vacuum, so who knows for certain if it will ever stop. Where there’s a medium, however, light will travel a finite range.

    van.physics.illinois.edu/qa/listing.php?id=21368

  98. Numinous One September 27, 2015 at 2:59 am -      #1098

    Oh boy.
    Another upgrade for DB Godtiers.
    I’ll wait for it to be fully translated, but suffice to say even Kitten will have to acknowledge that Goku, Beerus and Whis will be able to straight up kill him with a single blow now, let alone a charged up attack.

    This all from that manga feat being animated and actually showing destruction this time, but of course Earth survives because of lolplot.

  99. Aelfinn September 27, 2015 at 3:47 am -      #1099

    Back from College, I’m gonna comment on a few things, and then simply ask for direct evidence after that.
    =
    =
    “Clarify again, what was your point? If your point is we can quantify the equivalent force on an object from Kains TK then I agree.”

    No, that was never the point. The point is that because he applies Force in a way that our minds can comprehend, it inherently means that said Force is tied to our physics, because in the context of our physics is the only way can a Force be comprehended.
    =
    “Not sure this has anything to do with what we are discussing. It does not matter where anyone lives….what are you talking about?”

    I’m talking about the shared assumptions between the creator and the consumer that are used to get points across.
    =
    “Ok so its not like actual TK, the universe itself specifies a special difference for it. Unlike Kains universe.”

    You ignored literally every other example.
    =
    “Most universes use telekeinsis the same LoK does to my recollection. E.g. via the actual defintion, not physical contact or means.”

    Yes, and most universes do not allow their characters to TK across infinite distances.
    =
    “No you have told me yourself that in WoT flows do travel as stated in the universe. It does not say in LoK that Kains on point TK travels though.”

    Except that this is a distinction you have conjured up despite the fact that we can physically see, with our eyes, that energy comes off of Kain and moves towards his target.
    =
    “Apparently it is gianing physical properties the more we research it. It apparently has mass, kinetic energy etc. Broken down enough it has all the factors of something physical.”

    What? Noooo, it does not have mass. Light does not have mass. It has momentum. It has kinetic energy. It can move things. But it is NOT physical.
    =
    =
    =
    Also, on the nature of the DBZ punch…it really shouldn’t be counted as 1000-foe. That would have obliterated the entire solar system. It’s just one of those feats that doesn’t make sense, considering you’d have to ask how the shockwave actually got to the other planet.

  100. Ninja Lowk September 27, 2015 at 3:52 am -      #1100

    “This all from that manga feat being animated and actually showing destruction this time, but of course Earth survives because of lolplot.”

    Earth survived because of backwards ass shock wave which I am pretty sure is operating on space magic… space Ki?
    The shockwave gets stronger the further away from the origin point it is. That is why earth only had people getting knocked down meanwhile giant asteroids where being vaporised.

    Congrats DBZ fans. Goku is now as OP as old Superman. Come, join us Superman, Thor, Hyperion, and Sentry fans. Enjoy the hell that is people complaining about how OP the character is while not taking into account the context of the story and absurd dangers that fill universe that make them seem like ants.
    Cookie and alcohol are to the left. Take a shot every time someone calls your character boring for being that powerful.

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