What Is……The Power Level Of DBZ?

The Power Level Of DBZ

Suggested by Amm0vamp1r3

What Is……The Power Level Of DBZ?

Well this seems new to FP or I haven’t seen a thread like it either way here it is:

What is the power level of DBZ? This thread is about figuring that out

Some people say because of Cell DBZ was solar system busting in power some people disagree

Some people say they are galaxy busting because Buu, Broly etc some people disagree

This thread is where we as FPers come to a consensus or acceptance about that

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430 Comments on "What Is……The Power Level Of DBZ?"

  1. Numinous One July 8, 2015 at 6:03 am -      #401

    Well considering he doesn’t have teleportation, doesn’t use a ship, how else would he if not physically?

  2. Kitten Lord July 8, 2015 at 6:05 am -      #402

    @Numin

    “Well considering he doesn’t have teleportation, doesn’t use a ship, how else would he if not physically”

    I was under the impression his blue elf friend Whiss could perform a long list of magical feats including teleport and when holding Beerus or Beerus holding him can fly across the stars, teleport and what not.

  3. Numinous One July 8, 2015 at 6:11 am -      #403

    We see in that scene that Whis is several meters behind Beerus and that Beerus floated down, not moved forward.
    Ergo, Beerus wasn’t in a position to hitch a ride.
    Anything beyond what we see just there is speculation.

  4. Kitten Lord July 8, 2015 at 6:16 am -      #404

    @Numin

    “Anything beyond what we see just there is speculation.”

    The whole idea of his movement, how and why is speculation since we do not see him move. We do not even see him leave or arrive, we see him “after” he arrives just above the camera as he floats down.

    Its not a stretch to say that Whiss who is perhaps the fastest character in DBZ moved that mere 2 meters (its not, hes basically right next to Berrus’ chair…) or that beerus at the same time raised his hand back a bit to touch Whiss to teleport him out of there. They had plenty of time, the planet even after Beerus struck it took about a second or two to blow…as calced earlier their speed is quite fast.

    Its far more convenient for him than travelling by himself from the planet to where they end up. The cat is lazy and seems to rely on Whiss to do the travelling for him throughout battle of the gods for any celestial distance.

  5. CH1C4N0444 is allergic to bullets July 9, 2015 at 4:28 am -      #405

    “Whichever came first?”

    The manga did, but it seems like the anime might end up over passing the manga soon.
    =
    “Superman vs Goku is going to be played at a DBZ reunion and has team four star doing the voices. That sounds like an indicator of where the win is going to go to, doesn’t it? I mean if Goku loses with that many dbz fans collected in one area the rage might just be enough to turn a nerd super saiyan.”

    Hopefully not… It’d be really sad if they gave Goku the win just to appease fanbois…
    =
    “Eh, I wouldn’t say side by side, it’s been over two weeks since the chapter came out, it’s either nothing more than a single chapter or a monthly thing I’d say.”

    They’re both going to be ongoing series, it’s just a matter of when it’s coming out again for the manga, This upcoming Sunday is going to be next anime episode though.
    =
    Also, the first few arcs for the anime have been announced: ““Dragon Ball Super” is a complete continuation of the Majin Buu story arc. It’s got a bit of post-battle aftermath, continues with the “Battle of Gods” arc where the God of Destruction Beerus appears and the “Revival of ‘F’” arc where Freeza comes back to life, and then, I’ve written a strange new story where they finally depart from this universe. They’re fighting against their neighbors, Universe 6! They’ll yell at me if I give away too many spoilers, so I’ll keep the rest a secret, but they’re chasing after giant Super Dragon Balls; I think things will unfold in a bright and simple way, that will be really fun and exciting!”
    =
    “As far as the anime goes, that scene was already calced for speed, using the speed of the asteroids in that belt orbiting the gasey looking planet Beerus ended being like 6.5c or thereabouts.”

    Well, FTL for DB is a thing now.
    =
    “I was under the impression his blue elf friend Whiss could perform a long list of magical feats including teleport and when holding Beerus or Beerus holding him can fly across the stars, teleport and what not.”

    Nothing has changed since since comment 93 where I told you Goku(with the exception of Yardrats who don’t even show up in the series)is the only one who can teleport. Whis can’t teleport, Bills can’t teleport, ergo they flew that fast. Stop trying to say they teleport just because you don’t like that they can move that fast.

  6. Kitten Lord July 9, 2015 at 5:52 am -      #406

    @Bullets

    ” Whis can’t teleport,”

    He can “warp” which is a sort of hyperspace, ergo not regular movement;

    dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Warp

    Whatever speed they went, we can clearly see its not fast enough to push food from between Beerus’ teeth so they could not have been going very fast for him to have to poke around in his teeth afterwards to get out

    ” Whis can’t teleport, Bills can’t teleport, ergo they flew that fast.”

    You cannot prove this at all. Both characters are still fairly young as far as the series goes and their showings are limited. Unless you have a source that directly says neither can teleport you cannot prove that just because in the past teleport has been limited to a few characters or to specific techniques a couple of very new and fairly alien characters could not possibly have their own type.

    Bottom line is that scene shows us nothing, only that somehow, unknown they went from being on that planet to being out in space.

    Also love to see the calc by the way, how the hell did they get distance? Do we have any idea how far they were from the planet when it exploded?

    I am not against them having an out of combat FTL travel option, a lot of fictional characters who travel between celestial bodies do and its not uncommon, but a vague scene should not be the medium through which we get such a calc for their speed.

  7. CH1C4N0444 is allergic to bullets July 9, 2015 at 1:10 pm -      #407

    “He can “warp” which is a sort of hyperspace, ergo not regular movement;”

    It’s very obvious when he ueses warp, that wasn’t one of those scenes.
    =
    “Whatever speed they went, we can clearly see its not fast enough to push food from between Beerus’ teeth so they could not have been going very fast for him to have to poke around in his teeth afterwards to get out”

    Can’t talk in space either, guess what they were doing after the planet goes boom?
    =
    “You cannot prove this at all”

    You know what, you’re right, I can’t. Since you think they can teleport, then burden of proof is on you, so go ahead, prove they can. Spoiler alert, you won’t.
    =
    “Unless you have a source that directly says neither can teleport you cannot prove that just because in the past teleport has been limited to a few characters or to specific techniques a couple of very new and fairly alien characters could not possibly have their own type.”

    No, but they’ve never shown the ability to, have never mentioned being able to, and have never done anything similar. This is like trying to say Captain America can spit fire balls out of his mouth because other characters can, despite never showing the ability to do so himself.
    =
    “Bottom line is that scene shows us nothing, only that somehow, unknown they went from being on that planet to being out in space.”

    Let’s narrow it down, shall we? Couldn’t of been warp, since warp is very obvious when he uses it. They haven’t shown the ability to teleport as of yet, so can’t be that(unless you have evidence to prove me wrong). Last option is they actually moved that fast… Yea, that fits. Wow, I guess they’re just that fast!

  8. Kitten Lord July 9, 2015 at 1:27 pm -      #408

    @Bullets

    “It’s very obvious when he ueses warp, that wasn’t one of those scenes.”

    Explain? We do not see them do anything when it comes to movement. Nothing is obvious if you cannot see it.

    “Can’t talk in space either, guess what they were doing after the planet goes boom?”

    Your point? talking in space is a separate thing altogether, were discussing speed, and we know speed should, if your moving lightspeed at the very least get grit out of your teeth! ha!

    “You know what, you’re right,”

    Thanks.

    “Since you think they can teleport, then burden of proof is on you,”

    Correction, that would only be relevent if I wanted to prove they could teleport, I do not care whether they can or not, I am simply trying to broaden your interpretation of a scene by pointing out jumping to a conclusion is fallacious.

    “No, but they’ve never shown the ability to”

    Well they have never shown the ability to travel faster than light without warp either.

    “Let’s narrow it down, shall we? Couldn’t of been warp, since warp”

    As I said above, obvious or not we do not see them move at all, he could have warped or teleported but unfortunately the camera does not show us this.

    “They haven’t shown the ability to teleport as of yet, so can’t be that”

    As you said, you cant prove they cannot teleport. i do not have to prove they can teleport unless I want to confirm it, but I do not care about confirming it, but its still a possibility. There is no “cant be teleport” unless it is known to be impossible.

    ” Last option is they actually moved that fast… Yea, that fits. ”

    That does not really fit at all by your own logic, according to you they have never shown to be able to teleport, well they have never shown to be able to move at or above C without using warp, so logic dictates they warped…

    Warp is the only way they have traveled celestial distances in the series, we know this, we have seen this before therefore why invent something else? Why assume something no one in the series has achieved….

  9. CH1C4N0444 is allergic to bullets July 9, 2015 at 1:48 pm -      #409

    “Explain?”

    2.bp.blogspot.com/-pDWDn9XQkiE/Uvxw7iEmVZI/AAAAAAAAprg/eHsf8WBGaiQ/s1600/DBZ+Movie+14+-+Battle+of+Gods+18.png

    That’s what it looks like when he uses warp. We clearly didn’t see that when they were flying.
    =
    “Your point?”

    Rule of Cool>How things really work in reality
    =
    “Correction, that would only be relevent if I wanted to prove they could teleport, I do not care whether they can or not, I am simply trying to broaden your interpretation of a scene by pointing out jumping to a conclusion is fallacious.”

    Then drop it if you’re not going to prove that they can teleport. You brought it up then burden of proof is on you.
    =
    “As I said above, obvious or not we do not see them move at all, he could have warped or teleported but unfortunately the camera does not show us this.”

    Like I said, warp is very obvious when it’s used and until they show the ability to teleport, they can’t.
    =
    “As you said, you cant prove they cannot teleport. i do not have to prove they can teleport unless I want to confirm it, but I do not care about confirming it, but its still a possibility. There is no “cant be teleport” unless it is known to be impossible.”

    Occam’s razor, takes less assumptions for me to assume they can’t teleport than it does that they can.
    =
    “That does not really fit at all by your own logic, according to you they have never shown to be able to teleport, well they have never shown to be able to move at or above C without using warp, so logic dictates they warped…”

    Well, I’ve seen them move, and I know they didn’t use warp since I know what them uesing warp looks like, and it looks more like moving than warp so…
    =
    “Warp is the only way they have traveled celestial distances in the series, ”

    When Whis warped in the series it was to other dimensions, the only exception is from Earth to his temple, which is somewhere out there in the universe, for all we know it could be in another galaxy…

  10. Kitten Lord July 9, 2015 at 4:04 pm -      #410

    @Bullets

    “That’s what it looks like when he uses warp. We clearly didn’t see that when they were flying.”

    We do not see them flying from the planet to the outer reaches do we…..we do not see anything like i said.

    “Rule of Cool>How things really work in reality”

    If we actually saw them moving FTL I would agree but we do not, hence how i can quite easily question your logic behind them moving faster than light there and not question them talking in space. By the same logic of Rule of cule>reality I could argue they just “appeared” for the sake of it, without any movement or powers involved.

    “Then drop it if you’re not going to prove that they can teleport.”

    Why would I drop the possibility that they can teleport? I do not have to prove it for it to be possible, we know teleportation itself exists in the series. Its more my view that they warped and not teleport but I will not rule teleport out until I know the characters do not have it for a fact.

    “Occam’s razor, takes less assumptions for me to assume they can’t teleport than it does that they can.”

    How do you reason this? They appeared suddenly out of nowhere in that scene, we know teleports exist in the series so from that I assume they can teleport, because teleporting is essentially appearing out of nowhere and it does not assume something that does not exist in the series like characters travelling faster than light. You need to assume that somehow Beerus is the only one who can, and did so there.

    “Well, I’ve seen them move, and I know they didn’t use warp ”

    Not in that scene we do not see them move. We see them “after” they moved.

    “When Whis warped in the series it was to other dimensions, the only exception is from Earth to his temple, which is somewhere out there in the universe, for all we know it could be in another galaxy…”

    like I said, the only way we see them travel further than continental distances is with warp. If Beerus and Whis use it every time they have travelled greater distances since we have known them and have never moved FTL without it previously then it makes less of an assumption that they did so here. The fact they did not show us them warping is covered by the fact they did not show us them moving at all.

  11. Friendlysociopath July 9, 2015 at 4:48 pm -      #411

    Because there’s two explanations for how they got that far from the planet so quickly:
    1) Teleportation
    2) Speed (regular or warp)

    Beerus and Whis have never demonstrated teleportation; so option 1 is out unless we have a clear-cut feat of teleporting. In particular because in Goku vs Beerus the Instant Transmission was messing with Beerus; indicating he had never come across it or was very unfamiliar with it.

    They have demonstrated high speeds, both with and without warp. Warp involves touching one another and a bunch of glowing light, neither of which were present in the scene we saw.
    So it is more likely that they were simply using more speed than they have previously shown to do instead of developing an entirely new power.

  12. CH1C4N0444 is allergic to bullets July 9, 2015 at 4:51 pm -      #412

    “We do not see them flying from the planet to the outer reaches do we…..we do not see anything like i said.”

    It’s not warp, they have no proven form of teleportation, that’s our last option.
    =
    “Why would I drop the possibility that they can teleport?”

    Then prove they can teleport if you’re so adamant that they have it…
    =
    ” I do not have to prove it for it to be possible, we know teleportation itself exists in the series.”

    We know one form of teleportation exists and that Yardrat’s and Goku are the only ones we know of that know it who are still alive. The only other one was Cell and he’s dead.
    =
    ” Its more my view that they warped and not teleport but I will not rule teleport out until I know the characters do not have it for a fact.”

    They didn’t warp. Unlike flying, there’s very big and obvious to see them do it.

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYS5X_FB0dg#t=13:27 And again at 23:18 and one last time at 1:20:43. Very big and obvious, unlike flying.
    =
    “How do you reason this?”

    I know they move, I know they didn’t warp because you don’t see the giant beam of light that happens when they use warp, and it can’t be proven that they don’t know teleport.
    =
    “Not in that scene we do not see them move.”

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9X_qrxl1MY#t=0m38 There, movement.
    =
    “like I said, the only way we see them travel further than continental distances is with warp. ”

    Moving to another dimension isn’t exactly a distance thing…
    =
    “The fact they did not show us them warping is covered by the fact they did not show us them moving at all.”

    One’s bright and obvious, the other isn’t.
    =
    Nothing new has happened since the first page, where you dropped this stunt. they didn’t use warp, you can’t prove they know how to teleport, so they moved that fast.
    =
    “Because there’s two explanations for how they got that far from the planet so quickly:
    1) Teleportation
    2) Speed (regular or warp)

    Beerus and Whis have never demonstrated teleportation; so option 1 is out unless we have a clear-cut feat of teleporting. In particular because in Goku vs Beerus the Instant Transmission was messing with Beerus; indicating he had never come across it or was very unfamiliar with it.

    They have demonstrated high speeds, both with and without warp. Warp involves touching one another and a bunch of glowing light, neither of which were present in the scene we saw.
    So it is more likely that they were simply using more speed than they have previously shown to do instead of developing an entirely new power.”

    QFT

  13. Kitten Lord July 9, 2015 at 5:26 pm -      #413

    @Bullets

    “Then prove they can teleport if you’re so adamant that they have it…”

    Where did I say they had it? i said I am not ruling out the possibility until its proven impossible. Its yet to be proven impossible.

    “We know one form of teleportation exists ”

    Exactly, proving teleportation exists and can be learned in the series.

    “I know they didn’t warp because you don’t see the giant beam of light ”

    We do not see anything as i keep pointing out to you, we do not see them travelling with or without a giant beam of light.

    “There, movement.”

    At 1:33 is the last time we see them on the planet, then the camera cuts to after they have arrived at 1:40 we see the back of Beerus, as in, they have arrived and we did not see them travel. So its pure speculation that they just flew, speculation not covered by the series, unlike warp, which has been used.

    “One’s bright and obvious, the other isn’t.”

    Both would be fairly obvious if the perspective is a few meters from the character, your acting like they do not show them flying around in the series…..

    “they didn’t use warp”


    You do not know this but its likely they did based on what we know.

    “you can’t prove they know how to teleport,”

    And you cannot claim they do not know.

    @Friendly

    “Beerus and Whis have never demonstrated teleportation; so option 1 is out unless we have a clear-cut feat of teleporting”

    So they cannot be faster than light unless we have a clear-cut feat of faster than light

    “In particular because in Goku vs Beerus the Instant Transmission was messing with Beerus; indicating he had never come across it or was very unfamiliar with it.”

    Or that its just a tricky tactic, you know, because teleporting around your opponent is going to mess with you regardless of whether you know what a teleport is.

    “Warp involves touching one another and a bunch of glowing light, neither of which were present in the scene we saw.”

    neither was them travelling at all, including faster than light.

    “developing an entirely new power.”

    Except warp is not a new power, its what they use to travel long distances in the canon so far, rather than making up an entirely new speed boost out of nowhere. if you mean teleport then that is not a new power, its in the series, Beerus/Whis have just yet shown it at least perhaps until now.

  14. CH1C4N0444 is allergic to bullets July 10, 2015 at 4:31 am -      #414

    “Where did I say they had it? ”

    Then why are you bringing it up? There’s no point in you bringing it up unless you’re trolling or trying to say that’s what they did. Most likely the former. Also, IT requires a Ki signiture to lock on to, which there would be none there.
    =
    “Exactly, proving teleportation exists and can be learned in the series.”

    And there’s nothing to say they know that one technique. There’s nothing to even say that Bills or Whis know about the Yardrats. You know how lazy Bills is? He’d never use warp if he could just teleport everywhere. They wouldn’t even need warp if they could teleport everywhere.

    We have no reason to believe they know it. None. At all. Whatsoever.
    =
    “We do not see anything as i keep pointing out to you, we do not see them travelling with or without a giant beam of light.”

    And as I keep pointing out to you, we would’ve seen the beam of light had they used warp. And the one time we’ve seen them appear in an area, there was a puff of smoke, there’s no smoke in that scene.
    =
    “speculation not covered by the series, unlike warp, which has been used.”

    You mean besides the thousands of showings of characters doing just that in the series, vs the three times warp we’ve seen, which looks nothing like what that scene showed us.
    =
    “Both would be fairly obvious if the perspective is a few meters from the character, ”

    Assuming they moved directly to the spot the camera starts out at. Giant flashy beam of light would’ve been seen regardless.
    =
    “You do not know this but its likely they did based on what we know.”

    Based off of what we know, it’s less likely they used warp. Had they used warp you would’ve seen a giant beam of light, regardless of where they end up.
    =
    “And you cannot claim they do not know.”

    I don’t have to prove a negative. So, unless you’re going to find me proof that Bills or Whis know how to teleport then drop it. There’s no point in bringing it up if you’re not going to back up your point besides waving your finger at me and saying “nuhuh you can’t prove they can’t!”

    “In this case, the person in the example makes a claim (Goku is FTL), and without providing evidence for it himself, he asks his opponent to prove him wrong. In reality, the person who made that claim would be the one required to prove it.”

    Change “Goku is FTL” with “Whis and Bills can teleport” and you have the exact scenario we have here.

  15. Kitten Lord July 10, 2015 at 5:02 am -      #415

    @Bullets

    “Then why are you bringing it up? There’s no point in you bringing it up”

    Ime bringing it up as a suggestion just like you keep bringing up faster than light travel. There is no proof for either being perfectly true but you need to consider all the options, and like it or not teleport is an option due to teleportation existing in the series and characters appearing out of nowhere, especially over large distances has been due to teleportation in the past. That makes it a possibility if not a fact.

    ” They wouldn’t even need warp if they could teleport everywhere.”

    They probably would not need warp if they could move several times faster than light by themselves either. Also nobody said teleportation had to be easy. Maybe warp takes less effort, especially from Beerus since Whis is doing it than teleport. All things that need to be considered. For example I can drive to my local town but I do not all the time, I sometimes walk.

    ” we would’ve seen the beam of light had they used warp. ”

    No really, why? if the view is not even centred on the characters how could we possibly see the light?

    “You mean besides the thousands of showings of characters doing just that in the series”

    No DBZer has traveled that far in the series so what are you talking about?

    “Assuming they moved directly to the spot the camera starts out at. ”

    “Had they used warp you would’ve seen a giant beam of light, regardless of where they end up.”

    I need to try and get you to explain how you would see a beam of light if the camera is not centred on the characters while travelling. Every time you see warp it starts from the characters, or near enough so we can see them go. In this example however we see nothing, we neither see them leave or arrive.

    “I don’t have to prove a negative”

    That is not what I said, re-read what I said and try again. I said you cannot claim they do not know. That has nothing to do with proof on my end as I am not trying to affirm something, but you would NEED proof to claim your positive they cannot teleport.

    “Change “Goku is FTL” with “Whis and Bills can teleport” and you have the exact scenario we have here.”

    I never said it was teleport. That fallacy requires me to try and affirm it was teleport which is what your apparently finding difficult to grasp, which is not what I am doing. There is a difference in suggesting something and trying to affirm it. Your trying to affirm they traveled FTL without warp or any known means, you have zero proof of this, just your conjecture that they “had to” because you cannot think of another way it could be done, which does not prove FTL travel just because your limited view comes to that conclusion.

    Funnily enough, It is likely easier to prove it was teleport or some such for me than it for you to prove FTL travel because teleportation generally consists of a character disapearing and re-appearing almost out of thin air, and that is what we see in that scene, Beerus and Whis both “suddenly” appear, we do not see them cover distance. Course I still believe its warp.

    Here is some of your hurdles you need to try and clamber over before you may be able to prove FTL travel;

    1- Distance is not shown in that scene, we have no idea how far they even moved between that planet and the region we see them in after…so how we can get speed without distance I would love to know

    2- Travel is not shown at all, you would need to show them travelling that whole distance to prove FTL. As far as the observer is concerned they appear out of nowhere 5+ seconds after the explosion.

    3- FTL travel is not known in the series, and Beerus has shown his speed “with effort” at being around or less than supersonic as proven by myself and Mea. So unless we add extra assumptions about how he is slower in combat or faster in a vacuum which adds more unknowns and unanswerable questions is illogical when we know of one option they could travel that distance already in the series.

    You can suggest FTL but the characters speed has been gauged already. Reasons would have to be given why all of a sudden Beerus can move that fast.

  16. CH1C4N0444 is allergic to bullets July 10, 2015 at 5:48 am -      #416

    “Ime bringing it up as a suggestion”

    And I told you already why that’s not a viable suggestion for these two, multiple times. And I don’t have to prove a negative.
    =
    “like it or not teleport is an option due to teleportation existing in the series ”

    That’s not enough to make it an option, unless it’s a Yardrat or Goku or Cell coming back from the dead. Teleport is only viable if those are the characters you’re dealing with.
    =
    “There is no proof for either being perfectly true”

    As I’ve already said, that’s the only option left. It can’t be proven that they teleport. There’s no beam of light or puff of smoke to show that they used warp, the last option left is that they’re that fast.
    =
    “characters appearing out of nowhere”

    Which is a trope in anime…
    =
    “They probably would not need warp if they could move several times faster than light by themselves either.”

    Unless warp was faster.
    =
    ” Also nobody said teleportation had to be easy.”

    You need a ki signature to use IT.
    =
    “No really, why?”

    Because a beam of light flying from the planet to the overhead of the camera is really obvious.
    =
    “if the view is not even centred on the characters how could we possibly see the light?”

    Because it would’ve come from the planet and over the camera’s view…
    =
    “No DBZer has traveled that far in the series so what are you talking about?”

    That’s not even what I’m talking about, I’m talking about flash stepping… Which is in just about every anime out there.
    =
    ” I said you cannot claim they do not know.”

    Yes, I can. Watch. “Whis and Bills don’t know instant transmission.”

    Wanna see my do it again?
    =
    “but you would NEED proof to claim your positive they cannot teleport.”

    No, that is a negative claim. A positive claim would be, “Whis and Bills can teleport.” See the difference?
    =
    “That fallacy requires me to try and affirm it was teleport which is what your apparently finding difficult to grasp, which is not what I am doing”

    What I’m finding difficult to grasp is why I’m having to go over this with you, again, when you’ve already dropped the point in page one…
    =
    “Your trying to affirm they traveled FTL without warp or any known means, you have zero proof of this”

    Because the other two options aren’t viable here as I keep having to tell you. Whis and Bills don’t know IT. Again, I don’t have to prove a negative. If you want to refute my negative, then bring proof. Whis didn’t use warp, we don’t see a beam of light and the puff of smoke that we’ve seen appear after they’ve arrived wasn’t present. The last option is they moved that fast, ergo, it’s what happened.
    =
    ” just your conjecture that they “had to” because you cannot think of another way it could be done,”

    No, because the only other options aren’t viable in this situation.
    =
    “Funnily enough, It is likely easier to prove it was teleport or some such for me than it for you to prove FTL travel”

    LOL. Alright, go on. There’s only one form of teleportation in DB and that’s IT, have fun trying to prove Whis or Bills even know it. Have even more fun trying to prove that there was a ki signature for them to lock onto in that area of space.
    =
    “teleportation generally consists of a character disapearing and re-appearing almost out of thin air”

    Wow, it almost sounds like it was a flash step! You know, that anime trope in damn near every anime?
    =
    “Here is some of your hurdles you need to try and clamber over before you may be able to prove FTL travel;”

    I’m not arguing they went FTL, I’m arguing that they moved to that spot without IT or warp.
    =
    “2- Travel is not shown at all, you would need to show them travelling that whole distance to prove FTL. As far as the observer is concerned they appear out of nowhere 5+ seconds after the explosion.”

    Flash step is a thing, the other two things it could’ve been don’t apply. There’s only one option left and that’s they moved there.
    =
    “3- FTL travel is not known in the series, and Beerus has shown his speed “with effort” at being around or less than supersonic as proven by myself and Mea. So unless we add extra assumptions about how he is slower in combat or faster in a vacuum which adds more unknowns and unanswerable questions is illogical when we know of one option they could travel that distance already in the series.”

    What you calced was his combat speed, not his travel speed…
    =
    “You can suggest FTL but the characters speed has been gauged already”

    From one fight where he was fighting, not trying to fly off to nowhere…

  17. Kitten Lord July 10, 2015 at 2:52 pm -      #417

    @Bullets

    “And I told you already why that’s not a viable suggestion”

    No you claimed without proof, which you admit you cannot prove that they do not have teleport. If you cannot prove they do not have it, and your only argument is its because you do not belive they have shown they can do it, then your argument should also be they cannot be FTL since they have never shown it before.

    Them not showing it up until potentially now is not proof they do not have it.

    “That’s not enough to make it an option, unless it’s a Yardrat or Goku or Cell coming back from the dead. Teleport is only viable if those are the characters you’re dealing with.”

    You just listed characters who we know can teleport, not a possibility but a fact. That does not counter the possibility that someone else in the series, especially a new character cannot.

    “You need a ki signature to use IT.”

    Who said it was IT?

    “Because a beam of light flying from the planet to the overhead of the camera is really obvious.”

    Depends on perspective. Really this is awful conjecture. You realize the explosion itself obscures one side of the scene once it goes off as well…

    The beam of light is still only just a bit thicker than the human sized characters themselves. So no, you would not, from that view see a human sized object coming from the planet.

    ” I’m talking about flash stepping…”

    Which you realize is just about as obvious as Warp in DBZ. I do not recall anyone flash stepping outside of a planet before.

    “Wanna see my do it again?”

    There have been quite enough fallacies for DBZ thank you.

    “No, that is a negative claim.”

    Then you do not know what a positive or negative claim is. Saying you know something not to be true is a positive statement.

    “Wow, it almost sounds like it was a flash step! You know, that anime trope in damn near every anime?”

    See, your getting the idea, so we have two things it “could” be. Only flash stepping has never been done across celestial distances in the show. And moving at such speed should you know, cause a long list of physical factors, one of which I have listed already (grit in his teeth). We could bring up heat being another.

    “I’m not arguing they went FTL, I’m arguing that they moved to that spot without IT or warp.”

    IT? maybe not, warp? still possible.

    “What you calced was his combat speed, not his travel speed…”

    True that, his travel speed was before he got into combat which was slower than his combat speed. But I guess you meant pure travel when no combat was going to be involved. Which is fair enough, however as I said, assuming he can somehow go thousands of times faster just because hes in the vaccume makes no sense to me. We would be adding even more assumptions as to why hes so much slower on Earth, unless gravity affects him far more than a human.

    You have argued too much against it being teleport without arguing why beyond “oh, well it cant be IT!”, so what? We know one teleport exists, maybe another with “instant movement” , how can this not be a third teleport known by Bills/Whis? Why is that completely impossible?

  18. CH1C4N0444 is allergic to bullets July 10, 2015 at 3:47 pm -      #418

    “No you claimed without proof, which you admit you cannot prove that they do not have teleport. ”

    I don’t have to prove it though, I’m saying they can’t, that’s a negative claim. You’re the one making the positive claim that they could possibly maybe do it, because reasons.

    www.youtube.com/watch?t=61&v=KayBys8gaJY

    I have no reason to accept them teleporting since there’s no evidence that’s been produced that they can, therefore, they can’t till proven otherwise.
    =
    “Them not showing it up until potentially now is not proof they do not have it.”

    Yes, yes it is actually.
    =
    “That does not counter the possibility that someone else in the series, especially a new character cannot.”

    Until proven otherwise, yes it does.
    =
    “Who said it was IT?”

    Have fun proving another form of teleportation then. Have more fun proving they know it.
    =
    “Depends on perspective. Really this is awful conjecture. You realize the explosion itself obscures one side of the scene once it goes off as well…”

    They already give you perspective, and from that location you very easily could’ve seen the beam of light. The explosion also doesn’t obscure enough of the scene to hide a giant beam of light.
    =
    “Which you realize is just about as obvious as Warp in DBZ.”

    No, Warp has a giant beam of light and a puff of smoke when used. Flash Step doesn’t.
    =
    ” I do not recall anyone flash stepping outside of a planet before.”

    I don’t recall Whis or Bills using warp to get out of an explosion, I don’t recall Whis or Bills using warp without landing on solid ground, and Whis and Bills have never used warp in a comparatively short distance. Characters flash stepping out of an explosion has been done, flash stepping to an area without any solid ground beneath them has been done, and flash stepping has been used to cover large distances.
    =
    “There have been quite enough fallacies for DBZ thank you.”

    Whis and Bills don’t know Instant Transmission.
    =
    “Then you do not know what a positive or negative claim is. ”

    Positive: Bills and Whis can teleport.
    Negative: Bills and Whis can’t teleport.
    =
    ” Saying you know something not to be true is a positive statement.”

    thebeautifulvirus.wordpress.com/2012/01/17/positive-claims-negative-claims-which-has-the-burden-of-proof/
    =
    “See, your getting the idea”

    Flash step is a fancy way of saying; “They moved really really fast.” I’m still saying they physically moved there…
    =
    “IT? maybe not, warp? still possible.”

    Bills and Whis don’t know IT until proven otherwise, I’ve already gone over warp, last option is they moved there physically.
    =
    “You have argued too much against it being teleport without arguing why beyond”

    No, I’m arguing against IT because there’s no proof that they know it. That’s how it works, You want to say something is possible you bring proof.

    I say it’s possible that a giant flying spaghetti monster grabbed them and moved them over there. I’m not affirming it, it’s just a suggestion. You can’t prove that a giant spaghetti monster doesn’t exist, it never showing up isn’t enough evidence it doesn’t exist. You say it can’t be that, well you can’t prove me wrong!

    ^That is what you are doing.
    =
    “so what?

    It can’t be IT, because until it’s proven that Whis and Bills know IT, they don’t. I don’t have to prove they don’t, they just don’t until evidence for them knowing IT is brought forward. There is no evidence they know IT. Therefore, they don’t know it. Get it?
    =
    “We know one teleport exists,”

    Yes, and we know the handful of characters who know it. Bills and Whis aren’t on that list, so the don’t know it.
    =
    ” how can this not be a third teleport known by Bills/Whis? Why is that completely impossible?”

    You would have to prove a second form of teleportation exists and then prove that they would know it.

  19. Friendlysociopath July 10, 2015 at 4:42 pm -      #419

    Just pointing out, IT involves the whole “touching the forehead” bit as well, Goku doesn’t do that just for the hell of it.

    Oh and Kitten, you already admitted Beerus has FTL reaction time because he reacted to a Kamehameha point-blank before it hit him. You also admitted the Kamehameha was a FTL attack.
    Not a huge jump from FTL reactions to FTL movement speed, just saiyan.

  20. CH1C4N0444 is allergic to bullets July 10, 2015 at 4:53 pm -      #420

    “Just pointing out, IT involves the whole “touching the forehead” bit as well, Goku doesn’t do that just for the hell of it.”

    And having to lock onto a Ki signature.

  21. Kitten Lord July 10, 2015 at 5:21 pm -      #421

    @Bullets

    “, I’m saying they can’t, that’s a negative claim. ”

    Wrong again, your claiming them not being able to teleport as a positive.


    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance

    Your claiming them having teleport is false, while ignoring the possibility that it is unknown or unknowable. Both of which is possible here yet your fallaciously claiming something you do not know.

    “I have no reason to accept them teleporting since there’s no evidence that’s been produced that they can”

    They disapeared and then re-appeared, looks like teleport.

    “Yes, yes it is actually.”

    Actually its not.

    “Until proven otherwise, yes it does.”

    Arguing from ignorance again.

    “Have fun proving another form of teleportation then.”

    This looks like one already.

    “They already give you perspective, and from that location you very easily could’ve seen the beam of light. The explosion also doesn’t obscure enough of the scene to hide a giant beam of light.”

    The beam of light is as I said small compared to a planet, were looking at different scales. You also do not know how bright the beam of light is. Darker stars and their light do not propagate as much as the largest, brightest stars for example.

    “flash stepping has been used to cover large distances.”

    Just not nearly as large.

    “Positive: Bills and Whis can teleport.
    Negative: Bills and Whis can’t teleport.”

    At the same time, that does not prove they cannot teleport. Like I said, your making an argument from ignorance.

    ” I’ve already gone over warp,”

    So have I, you keep asserting warp is super bright and would have been easy to see without proof.

    “You say it can’t be that, well you can’t prove me wrong!”

    No I cant….see your getting it….course, I know you cannot prove a spaghetti monster exists either, just like you cannot prove faster than light beyond conjecture and speculation.

    “It can’t be IT, because until it’s proven that Whis and Bills know IT, they don’t”

    Ignorance fallacy again…


    ” I don’t have to prove they don’t, they just don’t until evidence for them knowing IT is brought forward. There is no evidence they know IT. Therefore, they don’t know it. Get it?”

    You really love fallacies, that is what I get. Youve coupled arguing from ignorance, with a massive straw man because I never argued they used IT. I said its a possibility they teleported. And I have evidence that suggests this, like the fact they seemed to appear out of nowhere.

    “Yes, and we know the handful of characters who know it. Bills and Whis aren’t on that list, so the don’t know it.”

    the burden of proof lies with those seeking to remove consideration for one or more possible truths, the burdon of proof is on you to prove this is the case.

    “You would have to prove a second form of teleportation exists and then prove that they would know it.”

    my proof is in the video, they appeared from thin air. That is pretty much a teleport. And that would not be negated by the fact Bills still has his clothes on, as FTL should blast that gi to dust, as would the grit in his mouth become a projectile of energy or disintegrated etc.

    @Friendly

    “Oh and Kitten, you already admitted Beerus has FTL reaction time because he reacted to a Kamehameha point-blank before it hit him. You also admitted the Kamehameha was a FTL attack.”

    I do not remember admitting anything of the sort. We know he has not got FTL reaction times because he can barely keep up with Goku porting about him, and Vegita smashed him in the gut with a relatively slow attack as well. So no, Beerus has not got FTL movements or reaction times, certainly not the latter.

    I supposed that “maybe”, again maybe….ki attacks can move FTL in vaccum. The fact the one in BoTG did not proves this to be false. At least for that attack anyway. I would not want to generalize for all of them.

  22. CH1C4N0444 is allergic to bullets July 11, 2015 at 5:20 am -      #422

    “Wrong again, your claiming them not being able to teleport as a positive.”

    Since you didn’t read the page or watch the video, here they are again.

    thebeautifulvirus.wordpress.com/2012/01/17/positive-claims-negative-claims-which-has-the-burden-of-proof/

    www.youtube.com/watch?t=61&v=KayBys8gaJY

    My claim is that they don’t know how to teleport. That is a negative claim. That’s not a positive one, it’s a negative one. Until it’s proven that they can, they can not.
    =
    “Your claiming them having teleport is false, while ignoring the possibility that it is unknown or unknowable. Both of which is possible here yet your fallaciously claiming something you do not know.”

    To quote the wiki ” It asserts that a proposition is true because it has not yet been proven false (or vice versa).” I’m asserting that a proposition is false(that Whis and Bills can teleport), because it has not yet been proven true. Got the difference?
    =
    “They disapeared and then re-appeared, looks like teleport.”

    Prove they know how to teleport.
    =
    “The beam of light is as I said small compared to a planet, were looking at different scales. ”

    Watch the BotG again, there was a scene where you see them warp past multiple planets and the beam of light is visible. Later it shows it from wherever Bills’s home is and the planets in the surrounding area.
    =
    “you keep asserting warp is super bright and would have been easy to see without proof.”

    I have actually, posting the full movie, time stamping one scene, and giving you the times for the other scenes. Had you watched it, you would’ve seen that the first scene shows how bright warp is. Not only that, but as I keep telling you, the lack of a puff of smoke shown when warp arrives is lacking in that scene.
    =
    ” And I have evidence that suggests this”

    You have nothing.
    =
    “like the fact they seemed to appear out of nowhere.”

    I see Bills and Whis moving into the camera frame, I don’t see them suddenly appearing from nowhere. Even if they did, flash step is a very common trope in anime. It’s in about every one actually, you know what isn’t in just about every anime? Teleportation.
    =
    “the burdon of proof is on you to prove this is the case.”

    The burden of proof is on the one making the positive claim, my NEGATIVE claim that they don’t know how to teleport can’t be refuted until someone who’s making a positive claim brings proof to the contrary.
    =
    “my proof is in the video, they appeared from thin air.”

    Really? I see them panning down into the camera.
    =
    “That is pretty much a flash step.”

    Fixed*
    =
    Kitten Lord, I’m done with you. I’ve had a long few days and no longer feel like dealing with you trolling bullshit, so, would you kindly fuck off and never bother me again, okay? Thanks, bye!

  23. Kitten Lord July 11, 2015 at 4:29 pm -      #423

    @Bullets

    “Since you didn’t read the page”

    And you did not read mine, which outlines how your either argueing from ignorance by just claiming something cannot happen OR, your wrongly shifting burden of proof, since making a negative claim does not relieve you of the burdon, the only one who has no reason to supply proof is the person with the neutral view, which is mine.

    I am trying to teach you anyone who wants to prove something either does or does not exist has to supply evidence.

    “because it has not yet been proven true. Got the difference?”

    The wiki outlines that it is fallacious if someone wanted to say it was a teleport without any evidence (I gave mine and how it looks like a teleport), It is also fallacious to say they cannot teleport, without proving it.

    “Watch the BotG again, there was a scene where you see them warp past multiple planets ”

    Whihc does not prove their distance from said planets. Your claiming we would see them flying away from the planet itself from the distance we are viewing from.

    “Had you watched it, you would’ve seen that the first scene shows how bright warp is”

    How the hell did you gauge its brightness, no really show me? compared to what? how did you gauge it emits enough of a light to be seen from farther out into space?

    “I see Bills and Whis moving into the camera frame, I don’t see them suddenly appearing ”

    Your just changing wording, they suddenly moved into the camera frame then…..happy? Since they just suddenly moved into the camera frame, and we do not admittedly know “where” they arrived or how far up from the camera is how can you keep claiming there “had to be” smoke shown…..your now making double standards…lovely

    “. It’s in about every one actually, you know what isn’t in just about every anime? Teleportation.”

    Wow you made yet another fallacy, so far I can count shifting burden of proof, argueing from ignorance, strawman and now your making an affiliation fallacy, also good luck comparing the number of flash steps and teleportations in anime…..

    “Kitten Lord, I’m done with you. ”

    Thank god, I feel like I am fending off fallacies rather than actual arguments.

    ” no longer feel like dealing with you trolling bullshit”

    That is a very disrespectful and ungrateful tone considering I am trying to teach you a few things both about DBZ and how to argue. Considering I basically solved an entire issue of DBZ (with meas help with the calcs) on the previous page I would have thought you would be a little thankful at the least…

  24. Numinous One July 14, 2015 at 3:35 am -      #424

    Oh looky, more speed feats with episode two.
    Beerus dodged what appear to be bolts of electricity to start with. Oh, and he also traversed to a different solar system in the span of two minutes at the most.
    Without Whis

    Followed by Vegeta’s training routine of dodging some form of energy projectiles while under 150x gravity. Not as impressive as the former, but he’s nowhere close to their level yet.

    Might also be Goku strength feats with him lifting those big ass chunks of whatever under 10x gravity.

  25. Kitten Lord July 14, 2015 at 6:25 am -      #425

    @Numin

    Any vids of this?

    “Followed by Vegeta’s training routine of dodging some form of energy projectiles while under 150x gravity. Not as impressive as the former, but he’s nowhere close to their level yet.”

    Doesnt Vegeta d something like that already in Battle of the gods?

  26. Numinous One July 14, 2015 at 6:33 am -      #426

    kissanime.com/Anime/Dragon-Ball-Super/Episode-002?id=112122

    From about 12:50 onwards.
    To summarize, Beerus is lounging around at home, sends Whis out to get food with a three minute time limit.
    Whis uses warp to travel to a different planet, Beerus complains with two minutes left.
    Stuff happens, Whis comments on there being 40seconds left, Beerus rocks up and says times up.
    More stuff happens, they leave using warp after Beerus blows up the planet with a new thing.

    “Doesnt Vegeta d something like that already in Battle of the gods?”

    Probably, but he doesn’t close that gap until Revival of F, even then Whis states Beerus might have to try if Goku and Vegeta work together as SSGSS’s. So it’s debatable if he’s even all that close there.

  27. Kitten Lord July 14, 2015 at 7:32 am -      #427

    So where do we get the distance between Beerus’ home to that planet so we can suggest how fast either Whis or Beerus were getting to it?

  28. Numinous One July 15, 2015 at 7:45 pm -      #428

    Oh I doubt we’ll get a distance with that, the only way to even try to work it out is by doing alot of digging.
    For starters Whis took roughly one minute using warp to reach the planet.
    Previous showings with warp is 26? Minutes to King Kai’s planet, and 3 minutes from there to Earth? Running off memory there.
    If it is at all possible to determine the distance between either of those travel routes you could gauge a rough speed for warp, work out how far warp travels in one minute and get a final speed from there.

    But as I said, alot of digging and I doubt we could find anything conclusive.

  29. Ninja Lowk July 17, 2015 at 2:09 am -      #429

    Taking all bets(except real ones).
    Deathbattle Goku vs Superman
    One will win, one will lose
    either way the fanboys will go nuts

    I’m betting they go with Goku

  30. Kitten Lord July 17, 2015 at 3:51 am -      #430

    @Numin

    “If it is at all possible to determine the distance between either of those travel routes you could gauge a rough speed for warp”

    Perhaps, assuming warp had only one set speed and Whis could not go faster or slower within warp.

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