What Is……The Power Level Of DBZ?

The Power Level Of DBZ

Suggested by Amm0vamp1r3

What Is……The Power Level Of DBZ?

Well this seems new to FP or I haven’t seen a thread like it either way here it is:

What is the power level of DBZ? This thread is about figuring that out

Some people say because of Cell DBZ was solar system busting in power some people disagree

Some people say they are galaxy busting because Buu, Broly etc some people disagree

This thread is where we as FPers come to a consensus or acceptance about that

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149 Comments on "What Is……The Power Level Of DBZ?"

  1. Mea quidem sententia June 1, 2015 at 12:11 pm -      #101

    Riverlia Post #83
    Bullets are small. Like I said, you’ll be shot before you hear the shock wave. I could tell you that lightning can be observed, in spite of it traveling 62.22 miles per second, but the only reason it can be observed is because it’s bright, even though it’s thickness is about the diameter of a dime.

    Aelfinn Post #88
    You’d need to remain stationary as well. If someone is moving faster than light, then they can see light approaching them. If they can see light approaching them, then can get out of the way. Light travels 1 millimeter in 3.336 picoseconds. That’s more than enough time.

  2. Kitten Lord June 1, 2015 at 12:28 pm -      #102

    @Soul

    “I wasn’t referring to anything in particular. Just valid speed feats in general. Remember, my replies are in the context of:”

    Well beyond just saying you disagree because your interpretation thinks certain scenes are slowed for some reason you have not really replied to the context at all, which is true, writers can change factors of their universe and clearly have done so here.

    ” My favorite examples of faster-than-sight movement come from the Frieza and Cell fights. They were not mere visual effects, and no, they certainly were not retconned.”

    Sounds like an affirmative, how do you know these things? What proof do you have for either?

    How do you know their not just mere visual effects? And to add to that, what calculation or real life examples can you give of human sized objects in those situations being “faster than sight” so it can even be gauged as something useful?

  3. Friendlysociopath June 1, 2015 at 12:33 pm -      #103

    Its in a fight concerning Yamcha, Gohan whines that he cannot see anything and Piccolo tells him to sense ki, not use his eyes.

    Noted, another scene where they’re moving too fast for the eye to see at all; starting to seem fairly regular aren’t they? And it’s- again- not Flash Step; it’s outright too fast for Gohan to follow.

    Then hes not sensing through sight is he so what he can see as far as that is concerned is irrelevant.

    No Kitten, it is not; because he was fast enough to turn around and catch the bullets. Regardless of how he sensed it, he still was able to move fast enough to do so- which means he can react that quickly to objects. Which means even someone with enhanced reaction time can’t follow many of the fighters when they’re in combat.

    No I favor evidence,

    HA

    Fair enough, is it not possible there is more than the teleports we know already?

    There’s actually two, Instant Transmission and Instantaneous Movement; but Goku is still the only teleportor- the other skill is not used by any of the Z Warriors.

    So essentially any fight where the fighters can see their opponents its because their using this technique, not their eyes which are of course, fallible.

    So to be totally clear, Kitten’s argument is that the people aren’t moving too fast for the eye to follow… because they’re moving too fast for the eye to follow.
    Nice.

    Now, since you went and made a positive claim “They can’t sense God Energy” I’d love for you to prove that. Especially when Goku as of that last fight was no longer in God form.
    Also, Roshi says they’re “too fast”, not “too high up” or “too far away”, he says “too fast”. You might want to pay more attention to videos; you’re quite bad when it comes to that.

  4. Kitten Lord June 1, 2015 at 1:11 pm -      #104

    @Friendly

    “Noted, another scene where they’re moving too fast for the eye to see at all; starting to seem fairly regular aren’t they? And it’s- again- not Flash Step; it’s outright too fast for Gohan to follow.”

    it also disproves the notion that the higher tier you go, the faster your reactions have to be because instead on relying their eyes they use a special “sense” to see their opponents.


    “Regardless of how he sensed it”

    You argued his sight was superior in some way hence we had to take that into consideration. Your evidence is apparently someone not using their sight…..

    Its quite important how he sensed it. This “sense” which could not be sound or sight in this case was responsible for the feat.


    “Now, since you went and made a positive claim “They can’t sense God Energy” I’d love for you to prove that. Especially when Goku as of that last fight was no longer in God form.”

    Sure;

    youtu.be/if_ha_4UDx4?t=41

    And Goku was not in God form, but he had absorbed the energy of said form, meaning he did not need the form to still be a SSG. As bills says later in that scene.

    “So to be totally clear, Kitten’s argument is that the people aren’t moving too fast for the eye to follow… because they’re moving too fast for the eye to follow.
    Nice.”

    When did I say that? One of my arguments is really that this looks more like anime flair than anything quantifiable. Being “too fast for the eye to follow” is a well known bit of flair that more than DBZ uses….

    Until there is more facts that can lead us to a figure we can actually gauge for the speed necessary to trick the eye then its pretty hard to try and use it as a feat.

    “You might want to pay more attention to videos; you’re quite bad when it comes to that.”

    2.bp.blogspot.com/-33d_mJStelE/Uel3kiGENbI/AAAAAAAARzo/4Kgb_tf_t1M/s1600/jack_lol.gif

    You may want to do more research. You do not seem to know about how DBZ characters sense in general even though your arguing their senses…..

  5. Friendlysociopath June 1, 2015 at 1:34 pm -      #105

    You argued his sight was superior in some way hence we had to take that into consideration. Your evidence is apparently someone not using their sight…..

    I said Roshi could catch assault rifle bullets so he had a better reaction time, and that he was unable to follow Goku and Tien’s fight. That was before any mention of using Ki to detect people.
    static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111112756/3039816-6246798665-19653.jpg

    You do not seem to know about how DBZ characters sense in general even though your arguing their senses…..

    Evidently more than you, considering you said Roshi used a special ki-detecting technique to notice and then catch bullets- bullet’s don’t have ki; so he can’t be using a ki-detection technique to sense them.

    One of my arguments is really that this looks more like anime flair than anything quantifiable

    You realize it’s also how it’s presented in the Manga right? DB and DBZ are anime based off of Manga.

    And Goku was not in God form, but he had absorbed the energy of said form, meaning he did not need the form to still be a SSG. As bills says later in that scene.
    Sure;

    He says you can’t sense deities. That’s not what you were saying at all; you said Roshi and company use their Ki sense to sense all things (False) and that this is the reason they couldn’t follow the fight.
    This is a silly claim as Piccolo was entirely able to notice Goku had returned to his Super Saiyan form, so clearly they could be seen by someone of a higher-tier, like Piccolo. Piccolo uses that same technique; but he’s stronger and faster than Roshi and Krillin.
    In other words, we still have to use powerscaling 😀

    it also disproves the notion that the higher tier you go, the faster your reactions have to be because instead on relying their eyes they use a special “sense” to see their opponents.

    They have another way of sensing opponents, there’s no reason that doesn’t rely on their own reaction time.

  6. Kitten Lord June 1, 2015 at 1:55 pm -      #106

    @Friendly

    “I said Roshi could catch assault rifle bullets so he had a better reaction time”

    I am glad you changed your example and stance, saying Roshi has better perception of higher speeds because he reacted to something behind him was really silly.

    Ok so, this scene is better And that appears to be a sten sub-machine gun , not a assault rifle.

    Your argument was that this would allow him to percieve faster than a human? is there a calc for how long it would take for a 360 m/s bullet fired from what, 4-5 meters or so to reach Roshis hand? I know it should be easy but I am lazy and its not my argument.

    So what, Roshi lined his hands up to the trajectory of a gun that a human is aiming at him? How does this mean he has crazy reactions?

    “considering you said Roshi used a special ki-detecting technique ”

    I said Z fighters do, and proved it as well. The DBZ wiki says Roshi shows it several times during the series. Not sure what this has to do with anything though.

    “You realize it’s also how it’s presented in the Manga right? DB and DBZ are anime based off of Manga.”

    Right? so? A lot of fictions use flair, flash step, faster than the eye can see, all this sorto f shebang, it does not change the main point which is its ungaugable flair.

    “. That’s not what you were saying at all”

    I pretty much said that yes, they cannot sense either Goku or Bills from their ki. So its no wonder they cannot follow the fight.

    “This is a silly claim as Piccolo was entirely able to notice Goku had returned to his Super Saiyan form”

    No shit? Hes blonde, glowing with light and travelling at supersonic speed….at that distance of course he noticed.

    “In other words, we still have to use powerscaling”

    Power scaling is always a weak option, it assumes too much but playing by your game we have Beerus at about 200 m/s combat speed, Mach 1 to be generous.

    So to powerscale down, who was the next “slower” being below SSG Goku and Beerus from the series? SS3 Goku, Kid Buu etc? Playing by that game we can go from there, not that I agree with it of course, as I said I hate power scaling.

    “They have another way of sensing opponents, there’s no reason that doesn’t rely on their own reaction time.”

    Its impossible to gauge how a fictional sense works. We can determine real senses when determine reactions based on sound, light etc because they have real speeds but ki is an energy source that we do not know how it travels if at all from the body of one being and the other sensing.

    There are countless things that should be visible from anything moving quickly, if you go fast enough your going to create heat from friction alone.

  7. Friendlysociopath June 1, 2015 at 2:24 pm -      #107

    Your argument was that this would allow him to percieve faster than a human?

    Can you perceive and catch bullets? Even handgun bullets? No?
    Then yes, Roshi perceives the world better than we do- that’s called reaction time. Meaning the speed needed to exceed what he can see is greater than the speed needed to exceed what we can see.

    So what, Roshi lined his hands up to the trajectory of a gun that a human is aiming at him?

    Roshi saw the bullets flying through the air at him, and caught them; after they left the barrel.
    That’s the textbook definition of bullet-timing.

    is there a calc for how long it would take for a 360 m/s bullet fired from what, 4-5 meters or so to reach Roshis hand?

    4 meters / 360 meters per second = 0.0111 seconds to get to Roshi. So less than a tenth of a second for each bullet.

    Right? so?

    So it’s a feat they have; if you can’t calculate it then you just go with what it is- them moving fast enough that everyone present can’t follow them.
    You not being able to calculate it doesn’t suddenly mean the feat doesn’t count.

    it assumes too much but playing by your game we have Beerus at about 200 m/s combat speed, Mach 1 to be generous.

    In your world, yes; in reality we have a giant mass of feats that put the collective group at far faster than Supersonic since even the low-tiers like Yamcha fight at speeds that make them invisible to enhanced human eyes.

    There are countless things that should be visible from anything moving quickly, if you go fast enough your going to create heat from friction alone.

    And that is done almost never in any fiction; just because it doesn’t match up with our physics perfectly (something almost no fictional feat will ever do) does not mean it suddenly doesn’t count.

  8. Kitten Lord June 1, 2015 at 3:11 pm -      #108

    @Friendly

    “Can you perceive and catch bullets? Even handgun bullets? No?”

    no but lets say for argument I could tank the impacts of bullets on my hands. if I placed my hand in the trajectory of a gun, the bullet would be irrelevant since they only follow the trajectory from the end of the barrel to the hand.

    “Roshi saw the bullets flying through the air at him, and caught them; after they left the barrel.
    That’s the textbook definition of bullet-timing.”

    As I said above, that is not provable true bullet timing, based on that one scan you cannot prove he reacted to the bullets more than the gunner.

    “So it’s a feat they have; if you can’t calculate it then you just go with what it is-”

    Which again we cannot necessarily determine as any real speed. Faster than the eye is hardly useful without gauge. Its like when people say someone is stronger than someone else because they pick up a dimension, even though that means nothing in reality.

    “; in reality we have a giant mass of feats ”

    That are, to finish your sentence not current incarnation which is what fact pile uses. These feats, often powerscaling from other characters, another jumble of fallacies vs my evidence, which can be clearly calculated from the strongest character in the series, no ifs or buts.

    “And that is done almost never in any fiction; just because it doesn’t match up with our physics perfectly (something almost no fictional feat will ever do) does not mean it suddenly doesn’t count.”

    A lot of things, like logical movement is not done in every fiction……sometimes shit just happens like people disappearing in a stadium. Your all to happy to label this feat as something usable as a physically useful speed feat yet throw out things that do not aid you.

    How fast do you think their going in m/s? If you cannot tell me that then how is it useful at all? Does every fiction that does not have people disappearing like that automatically make those fictions slower than this? even if we can bring up real speed ,like hypersonic+ all down to an illogical and nonsensical bit of flair?

    Sure their faster than a human, why not, but this feat with Tien and Goku is flair that does not help us with any solid conclusion.

    So as I said, whos the next step down from Beerus and God Goku?

  9. Friendlysociopath June 1, 2015 at 3:48 pm -      #109

    That are, to finish your sentence not current incarnation which is what fact pile uses.

    There’s only one incarnation for Dragonball characters? Unless you’re counting GT for whatever reason.
    Dragonball is canon to Dragonball Z and Battle of the Gods and vice versa- the three are not different ‘incarnations’. Same universe, same characters, same feats. There wasn’t a retcon; it’s just the next chapter.

    no but lets say for argument I could tank the impacts of bullets on my hands.

    Then you would have to move your hands quickly enough to block the bullets, which is bullet-timing reactions and speed. His durability has nothing to do with the fact that he successfully caught every bullet coming to him.

    As I said above, that is not provable true bullet timing, based on that one scan you cannot prove he reacted to the bullets more than the gunner.

    It’s textbook bullet-timing; gun fires, he catches the bullets. You literally have no argument against that, whether he’s durable enough to be bullet-proof is irrelevant as he caught all nine bullets fired at him.

    another jumble of fallacies vs my evidence

    Powerscaling isn’t a fallacy. You just don’t like it.
    You not liking it =/= fallacy.
    If I have Man A punch hard enough to shatter a stone wall, and Man B proves he is stronger than Man A- then Man B can also punch hard enough to shatter a stone wall; even if he has never done so.
    ^That was a perfect example of powerscaling.

    Your all to happy to label this feat as something usable as a physically useful speed feat yet throw out things that do not aid you.

    You’re doing literally the same exact thing. Except Dragonball is a progressive series, you’re supposed to know that characters are so fast and so strong that way you can be impressed when someone is faster and stronger.
    Not unlike how you say Legacy of Kain works.

    If you cannot tell me that then how is it useful at all?

    Because it’s still a feat you nonsensical little jackass. Even if you can’t calculate it that doesn’t change the fact that it’s a canon ability of the characters.
    If it requires FTL movement for that feat to be true, then they’re FTL; because that’s the feat. You don’t change the feat to match the calcs, you change the calcs to match the feat.
    If it requires Mach 5000 movement speeds, then that’s how fast they go.
    If it requires Mach 5 movements speeds, then that’s how fast they go.
    If it’s physically impossible, then we just have to guess at the closest possible alternative; which is probably FTL movement.

    And as you’ve pointed out, this exact same speed is used in DBZ; the “next incarnation”. However, we can still see the fighters once Gohan uses his Ki sense.
    Realize what that means yet?
    It means every single fight in DBZ requires that sense, meaning that trying to time them is a wasted effort.
    Because as you said, we can’t quantify a sense that works on a non-existent thing.

  10. Kitten Lord June 1, 2015 at 4:44 pm -      #110

    @Friendly

    “There wasn’t a retcon; it’s just the next chapter.”

    Right and the latest chapter and therefore incarnation is Ressurection of F and before that Battle of the Gods, which gives us Beerus to scale from, who is the strongest character in the series.

    “Then you would have to move your hands quickly enough to block the bullets”

    No just to keep them in line with my shooter. If a man aims a gun at me, I can move my hand in the trajectory of where he is aiming, it takes some judgement but not great speed. If he moves the gun slightly to the left or right, then I would move my hand likewise.

    “as he caught all nine bullets fired at him.”

    “Powerscaling isn’t a fallacy.”

    Its potentially a number of them depending on what your scaling. It could be hasty generalization for example to determine one scene of someone not being able to perceive movements from an entity to another, even when the situations, distances, speeds and lighting could all be different, which would then change the required senses and perceptions to see something.

    That is just one example, another is how each fight although under the same rules (jabbing which goes on to slow harder blows which finishes in screaming and laserz!) is still somewhat different, not everyone is defeated in the exact same movements.

    “^That was a perfect example of powerscaling.”

    And why it is fraught with fallacies because it would then take further investigation which may not be possible. One man may be stronger, get beaten by man B because he had more technique and you will still scale him up on strength….

    “You’re doing literally the same exact thing”

    When? When I just said I would play by your game of power scaling? in which case yes, as I said I was doing it for arguments sake. Otherwise, no, when do I power scale?

    “Not unlike how you say Legacy of Kain works.”

    When did I use power scaling with LoK?

    “Because it’s still a feat you nonsensical little jackass.”

    Oh boo hoo, looks like I made him angry.

    “If it’s physically impossible, then we just have to guess at the closest possible alternative; ”

    Which is nothing, we have no alternative just like in my example. There is no alternative logical or otherwise to scale strength of someone who can lift a dimension, or some other nonsensical feat that reality cannot gauge at all. This is similar.

    We know it cannot be FTL, because of a long list of reasons why it cannot be, least of all because the output of energy from that would kill every character in the series, Beerus included. You see, this is why your laughable power scaling is ridiculous and why my actual taking of a gaugable feat from the latest movies in the series is far more understandable and more realistic.

    “It means every single fight in DBZ requires that sense, meaning that trying to time them is a wasted effort.”

    Of course it needs that sense, because for whatever reason they cannot do martial arts with normal senses. For whatever reason this sense allows them to perceive what is, as a rough estimate low subsonic speed, considering Beerus is around supersonic.

    This makes sense, because trying to focus and fully appreciate and follow even peak martial arts especially from dozens of meters to miles away like in DBZ would be near impossible with your eyesight alone….they do not even have a telescope! good lord!

    So;

    Beerus= Mach 1-2, I take it many of the DBZ folks cannot see Buu and SS3 goku fight, Frieza may not see them and so on and so forth until we get to humans in DBZ not being able to see Tien. I will need all the mentions of a character struggling to follow another to get this list perfect. Then to calculate how much faster you have to be for them not to be able to follow you.

  11. Friendlysociopath June 1, 2015 at 5:21 pm -      #111

    One man may be stronger, get beaten by man B because he had more technique and you will still scale him up on strength….

    Notice in my example I specifically only mentioned strength; nothing about technique or speed or anything else.
    If two people punch attack one another head-on, sword, fist, whatever; and one man is knocked back and hurt and another is not, one is clearly stronger than the other.

    And why it is fraught with fallacies

    My example had no fallacies.
    The potential for a fallacy is there, but powerscaling itself is not a fallacy.

    No just to keep them in line with my shooter.

    What you’re saying doesn’t exist; you were told this in the Cloud vs Obi-Wan thread too.
    To move your hand quickly enough to block a bullet is moving fast enough to be a bullet-timer. Because bullets don’t go exactly where the gun is pointed, especially not for submachine guns.
    Besides, we see his hands in that scan; he’s catching the bullets, not blocking them.

    When did I use power scaling with LoK?

    Can you really not tell? You scaled Kain to be durable based on a feat Raziel had.
    ^That’s powerscaling.

    Oh boo hoo, looks like I made him angry.

    Nope, just very disappointed; you’re using the same troll-material you’ve used before. Make up something new at least.

    Otherwise, no, when do I power scale?

    “Beerus= Mach 1-2, everyone else must be slower than him”
    Reverse powerscaling is still powerscaling. And there’s hundreds of instances, both in DBZ and DB, that show they’re all fighting at speeds far above Mach 1.

    We know it cannot be FTL, because of a long list of reasons why it cannot be, least of all because the output of energy from that would kill every character in the series

    And this has not stopped us from debating Flash, Superman, Quicksilver, Thor, or any other character that goes FTL. Not matching up to physics doesn’t matter, canon is what matters. Canonically they can go that fast, you don’t get to argue against canon.

    For whatever reason this sense allows them to perceive what is, as a rough estimate low subsonic speed, considering Beerus is around supersonic.

    Your rough estimate has not be agreed to by anyone here; it holds no value whatsoever.

    Tell you what, Goku and Tien go fast enough light fails to bounce off of them; so they’re faster than light.
    Every part of their bodies goes faster than 299,792,458 meters per second; because they were completely invisible.
    With Kaio-ken Goku doubling that, Goku can move; 599,584,916 meters per second. So twice the speed of light.
    The best he’s ever done was Kaio-ken x20, so he can go 20x the speed of light, 5,995,849,160 meters per second.
    Super Saiyan increases all of his stats more than any amount of Kaio-Ken, so in his Super Saiyan form he’s more than 20x FTL.
    ^There look, I did a calc. But unless I have someone agree with me, they hold no weight whatsoever. The same as yours; except mine actually holds up to speed feats presented in the series where your own does not.

  12. Epicazeroth June 1, 2015 at 5:34 pm -      #112

    @Kitten: “I could easily say that any feats that look fast have been sped up by your same logic.”
    That’s not a thing…

    “True or not, that exaggeration costs them a lot of speed.”
    The scenes. Not the characters.

    “which gives us Beerus to scale from, who is the strongest character in the series.”
    Actually, he’s not. But whatever.
    ===
    Also, there is no way Goku and Beerus are only supersonic. Observe:

    2:00 – they go from one end of the skyline to the other with each punch
    9:05 – the same thing but in space
    21:20 – Beerus flies through several planets in a few seconds. Whis calls them planets later.
    Though that one might be a dub issue; I don’t know what it says in the Japanese.
    =
    Though I’m wondering why in Hell 18 was in the Capsule. She’s definitely less likely to be injured than Yamcha and Krillin.

    Also, where does Whis get money?

  13. Kitten Lord June 1, 2015 at 5:40 pm -      #113

    @Friendly

    “Notice in my example I specifically only mentioned strength; nothing about technique or speed or anything else.”

    This is your hole though youve buried yourself in, is that power scaling is rarely as obvious, for example you would scale Tien and Goku to Frieza and beyond even though the feats they may have “flash stepped” in may have different quantities that are different like those i have already mentioned, lighting, distance.

    All this from a bit of flair that we cannot really gauge.

    “The potential for a fallacy is there”

    Exactly, a huge amount of potential. Hence why I said power scaling is fraught with fallacies nad generally useless. Never is it as clear cut as you said, yes if someone physically beat someone purely through strength in the same examples their stronger, but that is not what were discussing here.

    “; you were told this in the Cloud vs Obi-Wan thread too.”

    Right and people could not grasp what is a fairly simple thing. Let me break it down for you, where does the bullet come from? the end of the gun, does the end of the gun move as fast as the bullet in the hands of a man? no….not even close…..right, so we have a bullet that although fast is following a set trajectory as it leaves the slow moving barrel in the hands of a man…..

    “Can you really not tell? You scaled Kain to be durable based on a feat Raziel had”

    No I didn’t, seriously when? Raziel performed a feat, then hit Kain with it, hence he is durable. Power scaling would be if i said Kain is stronger/faster than Raziel because hes stronger and faster than someone Raziel got beaten by. Not including all the facts and factors that may have been different in each individuals fight.

    ” you’re using the same troll-material ”

    Oh what? The canon movies? write a letter to our friend Akira and complain about it…..your power scaling

    “And this has not stopped us from debating Flash, Superman, Quicksilver, Thor, or any other character that goes FTL. Not matching up to physics doesn’t matter, canon is what matters. Canonically they can go that fast, you don’t get to argue against canon.”

    Their stated to be that fast. not deduced by fans but literally stated…..theres a huge difference from you using a bit of flair that is shot down by later evidence from later incarnations and us using a literal stated fact in both narration, in-universe communication and showings.

    “Reverse powerscaling is still powerscaling. And there’s hundreds of instances, both in DBZ and DB, that show they’re all fighting at speeds far above Mach 1.”

    Yes it is, hence why I said although I did not like it, I would be fair and play by your rules. And whether they do or not, is questionable and arguable to the extreme, I have seen tons of instances of them moving at slow speeds myself but this one is most recent and is solid, rock solid.

    “Your rough estimate has not be agreed to by anyone here; it holds no value whatsoever.”

    It should unless there is an error in my math concerning rain drops, which tbh, I just copied from a site from someone who did a ton of calcs. My scene is clear, has easy to scale events and more importantly has no dubious assumptions like characters being faster than light because humans in their universe had trouble observing them….

    “The same as yours; except mine actually holds up to speed feats presented in the series where your own does not.”

    Your a liar young friendly, because I literally showed you where I got mine from the most modern incarnation of the series. Your using old hat information and your twisted deductions from it.

    Your anime flair vs physics? wonder which one is more reliable to determine feats….hmmm..

    media.giphy.com/media/a5viI92PAF89q/giphy.gif

    @Epic

    “That’s not a thing…”

    Yes it is.

    “Actually, he’s not. But whatever.”

    Ok, but Whis has few showings.

    “2:00 – they go from one end of the skyline to the other with each punch”

    how do you gauge distance purely from the skyline? That could still be at best multiple mach speeds. later their kicking about the city, quite slowly from street to street….

    “21:20 – Beerus flies through several planets in a few seconds. Whis calls them planets later.”

    DBZ has a thing for miniature planets.

  14. hellboy147 June 1, 2015 at 6:08 pm -      #114

    “But don’t they ultimately cap out at planet busting?”
    _
    Broly is a Multi solar system buster, Buu should be around solar system level as well. As for Broly Yes he is FTL as well destroyed a galaxy in 10 years, the light would take 100,000 years to cross it, Broly is massively faster than light. Hell his beam when he destroyed a planet with single swing traveled as FTL+ speed.

  15. Kitten Lord June 1, 2015 at 6:11 pm -      #115

    We know Buu can bust planets, without too much issue so yes, given enough time he could bust a solar system, especially one as small as Sol with only a handful of planets.

    Is Broly actually canon?

  16. Friendlysociopath June 1, 2015 at 6:12 pm -      #116

    is that power scaling is rarely as obvious

    It’s actually really obvious, and easy too; is it too hard for you? I’ll gladly help.
    If a character is hopelessly overwhelmed by an enemy and unable to land a single blow, the enemy is faster.
    There, simple and easy to follow.

    Never is it as clear cut as you said

    In all of fiction it’s never that clear? You’d best not make such blanket statements.

    Raziel performed a feat, then hit Kain with it, hence he is durable.

    That’s powerscaling Kitten. You’re establishing the power of one character based on the power of another.
    And congrats, Roshi, Krillin, Goku, and Raditz have all caught bullets, they’ve all then been at some point hopelessly unable to follow the movements of another character.
    Hence the other characters are faster.
    Cheers

    Their stated to be that fast. not deduced by fans but literally stated

    Double cheers, Goku is said to fly over Snake Way in two days; flies halfway around Namek in a few seconds, and fights at such speeds that he becomes invisible. They’re perfectly canon as he’s stated to do those things just like the others are stated to go FTL.
    All of that makes him far above your paltry Mach 1-2 lowball that nobody took seriously at all.

    Right and people could not grasp what is a fairly simple thing.

    Probably because what you’re saying is not real.
    If the gun fired bullets, you have to move your limb in time to block it. That’s bullet-timing; they can see the bullet and know where it’s going.

    Let me break it down for you

    On the contrary, let me break this down for you instead.
    A bullet does not just go on a set path from the gun. There are many factors that go along with it:
    Motion of the gun
    Wind
    Motion of the shooter
    What kind of bullet it is
    What kind of gun it is
    Condition of the gun
    Condition of the bullets
    Air temperature
    ^All of that means the bullet is not going to just fly in a straight line out of the barrel. In order to block successive bullets, you must be able to see them.

    Your a liar young friendly

    You sound aggravated my young naive friend

    Your anime flair vs physics?

    Well you see, here’s the kicker; mine actually counts- yours doesn’t. Your calculations are flawed, you were told they were flawed and the exact reason why they were flawed.

    Canon Anime Flair > Flawed Calculations

  17. hellboy147 June 1, 2015 at 6:14 pm -      #117

    “Is Broly actually canon?”
    _
    Not really but since we are talking about DBZ u know… As for power levels, both Goku and Broly born at the same time and Broly was born with a power level of 10000.

  18. Epicazeroth June 1, 2015 at 6:15 pm -      #118

    @Kitten: “Exactly, a huge amount of potential.”
    But no actual fallacies. Nobody cares about potential.

    “And whether they do or not, is questionable and arguable to the extreme”
    Then why are you the only one questioning or arguing?

    “Your using old hat information and your twisted deductions from it.”
    Except we know for a fact that they get more powerful as time goes on. So whatever he gets from earlier is less than what they have now.

    “Yes it is.”
    Where?

    “DBZ has a thing for miniature planets.”
    Fair enough. We have no scale for the planets or Beerus’ home.
    ===
    @hellboy: Did Broly do those all at once? And did he have a ship with which to travel FTL?

  19. Aelfinn June 1, 2015 at 6:16 pm -      #119

    “Broly is a Multi solar system buster, Buu should be around solar system level as well. As for Broly Yes he is FTL as well destroyed a galaxy in 10 years, the light would take 100,000 years to cross it, Broly is massively faster than light. Hell his beam when he destroyed a planet with single swing traveled as FTL+ speed.”

  20. Limbo Lowk June 1, 2015 at 6:23 pm -      #120

    “no….not even close…..right, so we have a bullet that although fast is following a set trajectory as it leaves the slow moving barrel in the hands of a man….. ”

    Actually as stated they do have a point. Unless we are talking about some with a good aiming track record you also has to take in account the other variables especially when talking about rapid fire. Gun don’t always have pinpoint a accuracy like in some video games.

  21. hellboy147 June 1, 2015 at 6:29 pm -      #121

    “Did Broly do those all at once? And did he have a ship with which to travel FTL?”
    _
    Simple logic it takes around 100,000 years for light to travel around galaxy. He destroyed in ten years. Ftl right?

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQdtI_DZrac It reached the planet pretty fast.
    Let’s say the planet was at the distance of moon which is 384,400 km, the beam reached it near 2 seconds someone do the calc.
    _
    @Aelfinn It gave me a good laugh not gonna lie.

  22. Kitten Lord June 1, 2015 at 6:34 pm -      #122

    @Friendly

    “If a character is hopelessly overwhelmed by an enemy and unable to land a single blow, the enemy is faster.”

    This is the problem, how you gauge their hopelessly overwhelmed and if the showings are all consistent is important. Go on, do it, find me what your going to try and power scale, watch me pick it apart because thats the quickest way of showing you why power scaling is daft.

    “In all of fiction it’s never that clear? ”

    You know what I mean, I have literally never seen any clear cut power scaling on this site.

    “That’s powerscaling Kitten. You’re establishing the power of one character based on the power of another.”

    Its not the same as what your suggesting with speed and perception whos values change drastically on situation. With Kain and Raziel we observe direct feats.

    “And congrats, Roshi, Krillin, Goku, and Raditz have all caught bullets, they’ve all then been at some point hopelessly unable to follow the movements of another character.
    Hence the other characters are faster.
    Cheers”

    Lets see if the situations, lightning, angels, distances etc are the same first. If not, then your scaling is flawed because your samples for each character are different.

    “All of that makes him far above your paltry Mach 1-2 lowball”

    Again, I would have to look at those feats you mentioned. Course, I take it all those feats are later incarnation and newer than battle of the gods…oh wait…no…

    “If the gun fired bullets,”

    Yeah your not even using my example, or even refering to it. If a gun fires bullets its in a set trajectory aimed by the gunner. I do not have to be bullet speed to move out of the way of a set trajectory or out of someones aim, merely faster than they are.

    “All of that means the bullet is not going to just fly in a straight line out of the barrel.”

    Wind drop is a function for long range sniper rifles, your stretching is getting to breaking point here. All this shit about gun condition has no bearing on the fact bullets fired out of the barrel and went a meter.


    “Motion of the shooter”
    “Motion of the gun”

    Exactly what I said earlier, which you ignored yet somehow now repeated. Yes, of course, motion of the gun and shooter, which is not bullet speed. Not at all….your somehow arguing the wind was taking those bullets off their trajectory (how hard was the wind are we assuming there? hurricane or something? shit..lol) in only a fraction of a second….

    “You sound aggravated my youn”

    Not at all, pointing out a fact buddy. Its a fact that if someone says something they know not to be the truth its a lie. Since you seem to be trolling me with comments of how I am apparently making these things up even though as I have shown my incarnation is more recent and from the new movies you lied.

    ” Your calculations are flawed, you were told they were flawed and the exact reason why they were flawed.”

    No really, how are they flawed? There is no way you can get more than Mach 1 as a generous portion from a droplet of water falling…you really cant….shit mach 1 would splatter the droplet in an insant…so I am being flawed only in my generosity to your side.

    @Epic

    “Then why are you the only one questioning or arguing?”

    Because i care dear boy, want to resolve it.

    “Where?”

    You said there is no such thing as a scene being sped up, the opposite to slow motion is obviously fast motion. It is a “thing” and you can look up fast motion if you like.

    ” So whatever he gets from earlier is less than what they have now.”

    Exactly, and what they have now is about Mach 1 fighting speed, maybe more than that in travel.

    @Limbo

    ” Gun don’t always have pinpoint a accuracy like in some video games.”

    All of which is to do with the gunner, his movements, the guns aim. Bullets still do not pop out of the end of the gun and within less than microseconds somehow move of their own accord unless it can be proven some massive wind is going on there or the gun is super weak and cannot launch a bullet far with energy, making the feat useless because you know…that would reduce the speed drastically.

    @hellboy

    “Simple logic it takes around 100,000 years for light to travel around galaxy. He destroyed in ten years. Ftl right?”

    Teleportation, size of the galaxy etc could be important factors. Also I think that whole galaxy thing has been torn up before now.

  23. Friendlysociopath June 1, 2015 at 6:58 pm -      #123

    This is the problem, how you gauge their hopelessly overwhelmed

    They tend to say, “I’m overwhelmed, I can’t follow his movements, he’s too fast for me to hit.” If the character themselves say they can’t do something, then they can’t do it.

    I have literally never seen any clear cut power scaling on this site.

    Then you evidently don’t read comments or watch videos, wouldn’t surprise me. I am surprised you said your own powerscaling wasn’t clear though, that came as a bit of a shock.

    Its not the same as what your suggesting

    Sure it is, you’re using Character A’s feat to prove Character B can do something. Powerscaling at its finest my boy.

    Course, I take it all those feats are later incarnation and newer than battle of the gods

    You can repeat yourself as often as you like, it doesn’t make your point anymore valid.
    The feats do not simply cease to exist because a new movie came out. And you’ve been told by three or four people now why your calc for that was wrong.

    Yeah your not even using my example, or even refering to it.

    That would be because your example isn’t relevant. Roshi caught 9 bullets; to do that he had to move his hands into 9 different places in the span of less than a tenth of a second. For a single shot you might have a point, for repeated bullets at once you have no case at all.

    Lets see if the situations, lightning, angels, distances etc are the same first.

    They don’t have to be the same; all that matters is the principle. They can catch, block, and otherwise deflect bullets. This makes them bullet-timers. It doesn’t need to be an exact value for it to be true.
    And if they’re slower than someone else, that person is faster than they are; and if they’re faster then someone else, that person is slower than they are.
    This is like 3rd grade stuff man.

    No really, how are they flawed?

    For starts, you appear to be blind and/or deaf, I imagine that leaves quite a few flaws in your calculations.

  24. Kitten Lord June 1, 2015 at 7:08 pm -      #124

    @Friendly

    “They tend to say”

    I said show me, as I said ill nitpick the hell out of it. I have seen most characters land a hit at some point, like how Frieza has been hit from basically everyone from kid Gohan, piccolo to Krillin etc. I wouldnt be surprised if I can find a contradiction or an error in your comparisons.

    “Sure it is, you’re using Character A’s feat to prove Character B can do something. Powerscaling at its finest my boy.”

    In my case Character B is getting an actual feat from being struck by character A though. how have I scaled power from Raziel when Kain is literally showing us the feat? its no different from another feat.

    “You can repeat yourself as often as you like, it doesn’t matter because I am not even reading your argument anymore, lalalalala!.”

    Corrected your comment, took out the lies and replaced it with what your really doing.

    “nd you’ve been told by three or four people now why your calc for that was wrong.”

    Quote it. I doubt it.

    ” to do that he had to move his hands into 9 different places”

    Or move his hand slightly to match the aim of the aim of the shooter, gotcha.

    “They don’t have to be the same”

    Well then you could be making a hasty generalization, using biased samples or any number of those things if you believe this. Hence why I wanted to see your scenes but your avoiding me on that one…..

    “For starts, you appear to be blind and/or deaf, I imagine that leaves quite a few flaws in your calculations.”

    Aw look, the adorable bashing that can often be observed with those whose faces have been planted in the dung!

    static.tumblr.com/n8obdbr/njrlz0eem/tumblr_luyjj3j8ie1qacbzj.gif

  25. Aelfinn June 1, 2015 at 9:15 pm -      #125

    @Kitten-Lord
    You can’t aim-catch bullets. Well, you might be able to pull off one, ala Ozymandias from Watchmen, but in order to catch every bullet from an assault rifle burst, you have to be opening and closing your fingers and making slight adjustments with your hand at super-human speed. Every single bullet will create recoil that alters the path of the next bullet, and if you’re able to recognize the new angle, calculate where the next bullet will go, move your hand to that location, and time your hand to close to the millisecond (maybe even microsecond!) that it passes that location, you’re pretty much bullet-timing already. Either that, or you’re fast enough to keep up with the bullets and catch them directly. You can aim-dodge bullets, but if you’re interacting with the bullets themselves, you’re bullet-timing.

  26. Friendlysociopath June 1, 2015 at 10:00 pm -      #126

    as I said ill nitpick the hell out of it

    And that’s why I’m not really bothering; you don’t care about what it true, only what you can downplay.
    For starts, I already showed you Tien vs Nappa. Tien couldn’t do crap to him until Nappa let down his guard.
    But here’s another one, Nappa vs Goku.


    Completely unable to touch Goku; both in visual and audio cues.
    Here’s another one, Piccolo vs 3rd form Frieza

    Utterly curbstomped and unable to touch him.

    its no different from another feat.

    And being too fast for someone to see or hit is no different from any other feat as well; you’re certainly picky about what is allowed and what isn’t. Almost hypocritically so.

    In my case Character B is getting an actual feat from being struck by character A though.

    Ah, there’s that hypocrisy; hitting someone is a feat, but not being able to hit someone is not?
    tsk tsk tsk

    Quote it. I doubt it.

    Are you not reading the comments people type to you? I shouldn’t have to tell you to read what people have commented, for shame good sir; they took valuable time to write those comments out for you.

    Well then you could be making a hasty generalization, using biased samples or any number of those things

    You know, I’ve caught you doing all of that already; you even admitted to it.

    Hence why I wanted to see your scenes but your avoiding me on that one…..

    That would be because you’ve already shown, and admitted, it doesn’t matter what I show you. In other words, a complete and total waste of my time placating a troll.
    But I have time to kill; here you go.

    King Kai saying Goku can traverse Snake Way in two days
    static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111112756/3039843-1165141963-DBZ_1.jpg
    Snake way is 1,000,000 kilometers long. So Goku can fly at 20,833 kilometers per hour; or Mach 16.

    Later, Goku is at Mach 320, and that was extremely lowballing with only peak human reactions for people that we know react faster than peak human. Just posting the link to the forum since I’m too close to link all of the scans.
    www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?b=15589

    And after that Goku is confirmed to fly halfway around the planet to get to Frieza.
    static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11111/111112756/3039853-2172726411-13503.jpg

    Namek is quoted to be about the size of Earth. Goku arrives in between Frieza finishing a sentence.
    Circumference of the Earth is 24,901 miles.
    Half of that is 12,450 miles.
    For that to be just 1 second is Mach 58,880.
    But let’s downplay a bit, and make it 10 seconds. Mach 5,888.
    Let’s make it 100 seconds, cause who knows; maybe Frieza really took his time raising his hand. Mach 586.

    Is that combat speed or lightspeed movement? No. But I don’t need to prove lightspeed movements; all I have to do is point out that your own lowball is drastically short of everything that is expected of a Dragonball character.

  27. Epicazeroth June 1, 2015 at 10:37 pm -      #127

    How long did it take Beerus and Goku to get to space? And do we have a scale for those planets Beerus destroyed?
    ==
    Off-topic, but is all that collateral damage ever addressed? Is Bulma just so rich she can pay to fix all of it?

  28. Limbo Lowk June 1, 2015 at 10:54 pm -      #128

    “Off-topic, but is all that collateral damage ever addressed? Is Bulma just so rich she can pay to fix all of it?”

    Yes Bulma’s family is essentially the Stark Industry of DBZ.

  29. Epicazeroth June 1, 2015 at 11:16 pm -      #129

    But people actually care about the damage when Stark pays for it.

    Actually, it seemed Beerus was going out of his way to avoid collateral damage. Goku was kind of like “Full power, baby!”

  30. Kitten Lord June 2, 2015 at 6:46 am -      #130

    @Aeflinn

    ” you have to be opening and closing your fingers”

    Not necessarily, we do not see Roshi opening and closing his fingers either. He keeps his hands in a prey mantis stance, which relies on snatches. The movement is minimal for him, far more for the bullet.

    “Every single bullet will create recoil that alters the path of the next bullet, ”

    Your making it sound more complicated than it is though, yes it creates recoil, which Roshi could easily observe from the gun moving up, its more prediction than anything else, which we see in Roshis movements, his hands get slightly higher each time, which is just a case of following the barrel of the gun.

    Regardless of how you argue the feat, at the end of the day the bullets do not make any great swerves that the gun does not follow. Roshi does not have to move his hand as fast as a bullet either, because hes moving them small distances while each bullet has to travel a few meters, his hand has to travel at most inches.

    Also, there may be very little recoil, the man is holding the grip of the gun and it does not appear to move much at all. he seems in the same stance as he was the first time he riddled Roshi with bullets.

    Which must have surprised him because he did not avoid those hitting his back.

    ” You can aim-dodge bullets, but if you’re interacting with the bullets themselves, you’re bullet-timing.”

    There is very little difference between aim dodging and aim catching. Its merely the interpretation that someone has to perceive bullets, ignoring the fact that obviously bullets come from the end of the very slow moving gun itself. Kind of like your example of Ozzy, only Roshi is following the submachinegun as it moves slightly with the recoil. Its fast, great prediction but he does not have to have some sort of super level of reactions, or even perceive the bullets in any way.

    @Sociopath

    “Completely unable to touch Goku; both in visual and audio cues.”

    He is also managed to say quite a long sentence in the time it took him to cross a few meters, but brushing yet another bit of anime flair aside, just like I have already brushed flash stepping. We know he only moved fast enough kick a man to the ground.

    Find force required to knock a man down and we find speed/velocity needed to produce the newtons.

    Course Nappa had just fought many battles, I could suggest he was tired and wounded, how can someone whos tired and wounded operate at peak? Especially when Goku has agility enough to leap over his head.

    Check this, Nappa reacts to Goku sprinting at him, suggesting that the issue Z fighters have is when their very close to their opponents. And again, he jumps on his head, Nappa either has very poor vision, or he is more likely tired and his sight is impaired from all the whumps to the head hes taken from the others. Who have landed hits on him clearly, hes not undamaged there.

    “Completely unable to touch Goku; both in visual and audio cues”

    Well no because clearly he is not very fast. What states he is fast? I cannot see any real indication of speed in that video that Nappa is fast or in his fight with Tien.

    “Utterly curbstomped and unable to touch him.”

    That is your big proof that somehow we can use power scaling to accurately decide speed? The situations are completely different. The angles, the lightning, and shit, Piccolo is not even looking in the direction hes going, no wonder Frieza got around him.

    Later hes just blasting him, that is not a physical feat of reactions or movement, Piccolo is not even moving, hes getting riddled with energy and can hardly do anything. Both of your vids here feature injured characters going up against restored ones.

    Its like taking a boxer who has just gone through a few dozen rounds and is all cut up against a fresh boxer of the same or greater level. Your samples are horribly bias. And your second video is not even measuring physical speed.

    ” hitting someone is a feat, but not being able to hit someone is not?

    It is certainly not the same. But sure, if someone beat someone purely through speed, then yes their faster but that is not power scaling. Power scaling is when you try and claim Tien was moving at the same speed in his fight with Nappa as he was in that fight with Goku, and that the same settings of perception were present.

    Its still flair flash stepping. Your feats above are individual feats, where we can see bloodied Nappa after several fights cannot follow someone jumping over him, and Piccolo getting blasted by a constant ki barrage. How is that the same as people fighting a few meters in a ring?

    “Are you not reading the comments people type to you?”

    Of course, for example if I did not look at your posts I could not throttle your argument time and time again. Your making the claim that my calculation on bills and water was shot down by someone, yet I honestly have not seen anyone even take a look at it yet.

    “You know, I’ve caught you doing all of that already; you even admitted to it.”

    Where? Your using multiple different scenes, different places, different attacks even to say people are faster than others and power scale, this is exactly the sort of thing that power scaling is made a mockery for.

    “Snake way is 1,000,000 kilometers long.”

    Any proof that he actually did take 2 days, and that is long? Also, is the snake way in the physical universe? as in, on a planet with gravity and what not? or is it in an alternate realm or something? Just…….to be sure that you know….the location could not have bee the reason for such speed…

    ” Just posting the link to the forum since I’m too close to link all of the scans.”

    Yeah, he assumed a lot about the distances and he is relying on reactions, which are again all assumed, likely power scaled.

    “And after that Goku is confirmed to fly halfway around the planet to get to Frieza.”

    Looks like hyperbole. Also clearly Gokus speed has been re-written because it took them time just to break Earths atmosphere when fighting Beerus.

    “Namek is quoted to be about the size of Earth. Goku arrives in between Frieza finishing a sentence.”

    A few things, first proof is needed for Nameks size, then more citation on “other side of planet” which is vague, and does not necessarily mean he was exactly 1 half the planet away. Next, can Goku teleport at this poiint? finally, the source merely confirms he travelled from this distance to Frieza…..

    How do you gauge it took him little time? you said somethng about DBZ characters raising their hands, you know what I think about that, they consistently take time from my interpretation to do a lot of things, shit their fights are filled with posturing and threats. Frieza seems to take his time as part of his character to see the fear on the face of his opponents.

    “Is that combat speed or lightspeed movement? No. But I don’t need to prove lightspeed movements; all I have to do is point out that your own lowball is drastically short of everything that is expected of a Dragonball character.”

    No your right, its all travel, debunked by more recent canon and no mine is a high ball, like I said there is no way a droplet of water could survive Bills crashing through it at supersonic. But I thought that was a close enough estimate.

    Your still using old canon and worse, deductions and calcs from other people. So essentially your using calcs made by people on old canon to try and defeat far less complicated calcs with easy frames of reference (I don’t have to go over how much hyperbole “other side of planet” could mean or how many assumptions and deductions on reactions and distance from potentially inaccurately scaled scenes in a scan) like falling water on our planet (not an alien one with potentially different ecosystems) from stuff Akira has created recently, like the last year or two.

    @Epic

    “How long did it take Beerus and Goku to get to space? ”

    This is ground level at 8:28, they seem to be just leaving the cloud layer which is roughly 20 km up at 9:02.

    so that would give us them travelling 20 km in 34 seconds. That means they were travelling around 600 m/s, or nearly Mach 2. Which is consistent with the earlier calc I did.

  31. Kitten Lord June 2, 2015 at 7:02 am -      #131

    What is up with the vids recently? This is not the first time my vids have disappeared, changed the times I have noted and what not….

  32. Friendlysociopath June 2, 2015 at 10:47 am -      #132

    Not necessarily

    Yes necessarily, that’s what “catching” is Kitten; closing your hand around the object to hold it. He caught the bullets; it’s not even out of line for feats since Raditz does the same exact thing 5 seconds after arriving on Earth.

    He is also managed to say quite a long sentence in the time it took him to cross a few meters

    God forbid characters actually having to talk while doing anything at high speed- oh wait, every character in fiction does that.

    Well no because clearly he is not very fast. What states he is fast?

    That they fight at speeds humans can’t follow. Aelfin calc’d that at Mach 5 at a minimum, something you conveniently skipped over in your attempt to downplay.

    That is your big proof that somehow we can use power scaling to accurately decide speed? The situations are completely different.

    My “big proof” is pretty much every fight in DBZ, if you want to disprove each and every one I wish you luck; because you’ll have to nitpick every fight in the series before you convince me you’re not wrong.
    And, of course, someone would have to agree with you; something I have yet to see.

    Of course, for example if I did not look at your posts I could not fail to give any meaningful response.

    Fixed.

    Any proof that he actually did take 2 days, and that is long?

    Yes, because it took him two days.
    And that’s the canon stated distance of Snake Way.
    And Gravity and everything else on Snake Way is normal.

    And your second video is not even measuring physical speed.

    Piccolo flies away at top speed, Freiza manages to outspeed him and get in front of him. That’s open-and-shut speed showing. Followed by Piccolo being completely unable to hit Frieza.
    Someone isn’t paying attention again it seems.

    Yeah, he assumed a lot about the distances and he is relying on reactions, which are again all assumed, likely power scaled.

    The calc for distance to the horizon was pretty sound, and peak human reactions is not powerscaling in the slightest.

    Looks like hyperbole.

    Let me know when you have a real excuse.

    Also clearly Gokus speed has been re-written because it took them time just to break Earths atmosphere when fighting Beerus.

    They weren’t exactly going straight up in that scene; they were fighting back and forth.

    A few things, first proof is needed for Nameks size

    Word of God says it’s pretty much Earth’s size, not to mention Bulma is able to exist on it exactly as she would on Earth- no suit and no heightened jump or anything of the sort.
    Speed calcs put it at roughly 3 times the size of Earth, comparing Krillin’s speed to Goku’s.

    Next, can Goku teleport at this poiint?

    I thought you knew more about DBZ than I did? You said you did. You should surely know the answer to that then.

    How do you gauge it took him little time?

    Because in the manga it’s about 3 frames for it to happen. Frieza finishes the sentence and then Goku is there. Even if Frieza just stood there for 2 entire minutes doing nothing whatsoever Goku would still fly at massively hypersonic speeds.

    you know what I think about that

    Yeah, but what you think doesn’t really matter much

    Your still using old canon

    Because it’s still canon, whether you like it or not. Come to think of it, movies for anime are typically the noncanon part compared to the show itself.

    (I don’t have to go over how much hyperbole “other side of planet” could mean or how many assumptions and deductions on reactions and distance from potentially inaccurately scaled scenes in a scan

    You don’t have to no, but you’re not disproving them then are you? You already didn’t disprove anything I posted besides hiding behind, “Rawr, new canon > older canon!”
    Despite movies always being 2nd when it comes to anime and canon.

  33. Aelfinn June 2, 2015 at 2:05 pm -      #133

    “Not necessarily, we do not see Roshi opening and closing his fingers either. He keeps his hands in a prey mantis stance, which relies on snatches. The movement is minimal for him, far more for the bullet.”

    …that’s opening and closing your fingers. Unless there’s something about “snatching” I was unaware of, he still has to move his hands into the correct position. Furthermore, no one said his hands are moving as fast as bullets in that scene. Bullet-timing means “able to react to bullets already in-flight”, not necessarily “moves as fast as a bullet”.
    =
    “There is very little difference between aim dodging and aim catching. Its merely the interpretation that someone has to perceive bullets, ignoring the fact that obviously bullets come from the end of the very slow moving gun itself. Kind of like your example of Ozzy,”

    When Ozymandias caught the bullet, he only positioned his hands where he thought the bullet was going to go and let the bullet hit his hands. He never actively, accurately timed the closing of his hands. That is not at all what is going on here with Roshi. He is repeatedly closing his fingers at the correct place and time to catch bullets, which is straight-up impossible unless you can bullet-time.

    Modern bullets from rifles travel at 1200 m/s. 0.22-caliber rounds are 5.6 mm long. You literally have to have your timing down to 4.6 microseconds if you’re not bullet-timing. That’s 0.0000046 seconds.

  34. Soulerous June 2, 2015 at 2:44 pm -      #134

    Are we all aware that a new Dragon Ball series is coming out? Just in case.
    ~
    screenrant.com/dragon-ball-super-anime-story-fuji-tv/
    www.theverge.com/2015/4/28/8508011/new-dragon-ball-series-super-akira-toriyama

  35. Friendlysociopath June 2, 2015 at 3:03 pm -      #135

    Are we all aware that a new Dragon Ball series is coming out?

    Was going to bring that up if Kitten kept going on about new canon, yeah.

    @Aelfinn
    It looked more like a sten submachinegun according to Kitten. Since it has a firing rate of 500 RPM, and the rounds travel at 365 m/s.
    Would saying Roshi caught 9 bullets from 4 meters away in less than 0.01 seconds be accurate?

  36. Aelfinn June 2, 2015 at 3:14 pm -      #136

    “It looked more like a sten submachinegun according to Kitten. Since it has a firing rate of 500 RPM, and the rounds travel at 365 m/s.
    Would saying Roshi caught 9 bullets from 4 meters away in less than 0.01 seconds be accurate?”


    Ah, so change my timing to 15 microseconds.
    But to answer your question, all 9 bullets would take slightly over one second to be fired. However, each bullet would cross the four-meter distance in 0.0109 seconds, which is close to what you’ve said.

  37. Kitten Lord June 2, 2015 at 3:46 pm -      #137

    @Aeflinn

    “he still has to move his hands into the correct position.”

    of course. My interpretation is that this position is based on the gun aiming at him, not necessarily the bullets. Snatching in prey mantis stile is a case of him moving the tips of his fingers, not opening them.

    ” He is repeatedly closing his fingers at the correct place and time to catch bullets”

    it is merely a greater feat of prediction. Ozy in your example predicts one bullet, Roshi bests him by predicting 9 but they still only fire one at a time from the gun, follow the trajectory the gun is faceing. All this is barely a step up.

    “But to answer your question, all 9 bullets would take slightly over one second to be fired. However, each bullet would cross the four-meter distance in 0.0109 seconds, which is close to what you’ve said.”

    But each bullet is still following the same trajectory that anyone, including Roshi can see the gun is aiming. Tiny movements of his hands, like a slight twitch of his fingers. Looks more like prediction from aim than reaction to bullets themselves. his actual reaction to being fired at comes from the man holding the gun as well, so his stimulus and therefore reaction to being fired at starts from the movement of the mans finger on the trigger.

    As soon as that happens, he knows the bullets can only travel in a set period. Collecting them in his palms.

    @Friendly

    “He caught the bullets; it’s not even out of line for feats since Raditz does the same exact thing 5 seconds after arriving on Earth.”

    Raditz catches one round from a farmer obviously holding a gun at him. I would be surprised if he could not catch that bullet….

    “God forbid characters actually having to talk while doing anything at high speed- oh wait, every character in fiction does that.”

    Didnt you try and berate me for making a blanket statement a post or so ago? and you just did it here…I have not enough feats or faith in DBZ as I do in some other characters that do it, and evidence of a closer to current incarnation suggests otherwise. All that adds up to me considering him having a conversation in that space of time as a time scale……

    “That they fight at speeds humans can’t follow. Aelfin calc’d that at Mach 5 at a minimum, something you conveniently skipped over in your attempt to downplay.”

    He gave us an estimate, that was for a different feat though. Not anytihng we can see in that scene, and nothing that Nappa does. What humans say they cannot see him when he does those moves? Infact, does anyone say they cannot see Nappa?

    And I mean actually say hes invisible…

    “My “big proof” is pretty much every fight in DBZ”

    Another blanket, ive used similar scenes from similar fights to prove their not that fast as well. Then I have the new movies to back me.

    “because you’ll have to nitpick every fight in the series before you convince me you’re not wrong.”

    You ignore what you do not like. Ive proven your stance is wrong quite clearly as soon as I posted Battle of the Gods. You have yet to show me how I calced that wrong.

    “And, of course, someone would have to agree with you”

    A calc does not become true or false based on agreement.

    “Yes, because it took him two days.
    And that’s the canon stated distance of Snake Way.
    And Gravity and everything else on Snake Way is normal.”

    Statements are nice, citation is better please.

    “The calc for distance to the horizon was pretty sound, and peak human reactions is not powerscaling in the slightest.”

    I disagree, scale is nigh impossible to see in that scan. Its hardly clear. And peak human reactions is pulled out of thin air. We either know their reaction speed or we do not.

    “Piccolo flies away at top speed, Freiza manages to outspeed him and get in front of him. ”

    We have no way of knowing how fast piccolo was in that scene. No idea at all, we have little scale, unless we use the environment, in which case I guarantee you, based on the land passing by in the background hes travelling less than supersonic. Note they did not even reach the clouds.

    “Someone isn’t paying attention again it seems.”

    indeed, sadly I do not think this is your own admittance.

    “Let me know when you have a real excuse.”

    That is a clear excuse, a line of hyperbole, we have no real distance in meters from that. I do not even have the size of the planet…

    “Word of God says it’s pretty much Earth’s size”

    Where? I have not seen this word of god that says that. I seriously just looked up “size of Namek” in google and a bunch of forums were discussing it. I have yet to see a scan that says it was earth sized. And yes Bulma can exist on it, so what? People exist on planets the size of King Kais….

    That is a pebble compared to earth yet has weirdly higher gravity too. Gravity or humans living on it does not prove its actual size. Certainly not in a fiction as cooky as DBZ.

    “I thought you knew more about DBZ than I did? You said you did.”

    Did I say that? That is maybe true, but I do not know this bit. It is pretty important for your assumptions on his feats of pure speed to be founded to begin with.

    “Because in the manga it’s about 3 frames for it to happen. Frieza finishes the sentence and then Goku is there. Even if Frieza just stood there for 2 entire minutes doing nothing whatsoever Goku would still fly at massively hypersonic speeds.”

    So? Is there any written rules of manga that 3 frames means its a small amount of time? A writer can describe events that pass in centuries in 3 frames……

    Is this really your only excuse for argueing it took little time? seriously, I have seen enough of DBZ as I said to know they take a shit ton of time doing anything. Before Goku fights Nappa, out Villain is standing there for like 20 minutes while watching Goku talking to his mates and patching them up….

    one thing I know about DBZ is that the characters are damn patient.

    “Yeah, but what you think doesn’t really matter much”


    Should do, I am the only one actually using the more modern works of the writer and a clear sense of scale. Meanwhile your piling assumption upon assumption…

    “Because it’s still canon, whether you like it or not.”

    right but its old. When the writer makes something new that is in contradiction with the old, clearly he has changed his mind on the speed. Which is crystal clear in the movie and requires very little effort to divulge. I did not do any assumptions on planet size, gravity, distance, calcs on horizons or power scaling for my numbers.

    “ou already didn’t disprove anything I posted”

    nothing you posted was proven to begin with. That is the point of burden of proof. I say Beerus when trying and enraged is Mach 1 or less, I prove it with a scene from the new incarnations and new works. Your counter is using something old that has clearly been adjusted in new works because Beerus is confirmed superior to previous fighters, even Goku.

    “Was going to bring that up if Kitten kept going on about new canon, yeah.”

    What is the time period in that scene though? Frieza is back again is he? looks like a prequel series, but sure, if some good feats come from that it may be superior to your old incarnations again, but unless Beerus is in it and does something new that does not change my findings.

  38. Friendlysociopath June 2, 2015 at 4:27 pm -      #138

    But each bullet is still following the same trajectory that anyone, including Roshi can see the gun is aiming.

    You’ve now been told by 6 or 7 people that your way of thinking is wrong. You’d think if you had a valid point at least someone would’ve agreed by now.

    Didnt you try and berate me for making a blanket statement a post or so ago?

    I did indeed, because your blanket statements are all very easy to find examples of you being wrong.
    Feel free to find me a speedster than can’t speak to his enemy because he’s going too fast for them; and then feel free to prove that a greater portion of speedsters in all of fiction obey the same rule so we can view that as the new default.

    A calc does not become true or false based on agreement.

    The reasoning behind the calc can be true or false, otherwise I have a certain calc that states all characters are FTL.

    All that adds up to me considering him having a conversation in that space of time as a time scale

    Except you know without a doubt that what we’re seeing is not happening in realtime as we see it; but rather slowed down so we can follow it.
    This is confirmed even in your “current incarnation”- something you conveniently keep skipping over. Probably because it invalidates your entire argument.

    He gave us an estimate, that was for a different feat though.

    That estimate was for how fast people have to be going for people to be unable to see them. This is replicated in DB, DBZ and in your “new canon” movie. Roshi and Krillen both exclaim the two are too fast to follow, exactly like they do for every other fight.

    Also, since you admitted Kamehameha is FTL once it hits vacuum- Goku fires that at Beerus while in space, Krillin has an entire line of dialogue and Bills has time to scream before it hits him. Where does that leave us?

    We either know their reaction speed or we do not.

    We know the minimum, which is what he used; if you’d like to say they aren’t peak human I suggest you present some sort of evidence to back up your claim.
    Using Aelfinn’s calc their reaction speed should be enough that, at minimum, they can follow people moving at Mach 5 or higher. So the feat in question would be greatly boosted instead of lowered.

    Statements are nice, citation is better please.

    If you know DBZ so much better than I do then you should already know that all of that was true.

    Did I say that?

    Yep, along with blanket statements about how people moving fast can’t talk to one another.

    We have no way of knowing how fast piccolo was in that scene.

    We know the minimum, and we know they’re past that. Know what the minimum was? Mach 5, because as you said, calcs can’t be true or false.

    Is there any written rules of manga that 3 frames means its a small amount of time?

    About as much as there’s a rule that it takes a long time. Except in this case nobody has so much as budged from where they were in the time Goku started traveling to the time he got there.

    Meanwhile your piling assumption upon assumption…

    And yet, I’m still closer to what the characters can do than you are; that’s just weird isn’t it?

    Your counter is using something old that has clearly been adjusted in new works

    The exact same thing is used in BoG, Roshi and Krillen can’t follow Goku and Bills’ fight. Just like every other fight in the series.
    You said this was because they couldn’t sense Deities, yet Piccolo was able to notice Goku just fine; which would make you wrong.
    Meaning it was a matter of speed that Roshi and Krillin couldn’t follow.
    And since it’s the same canon as the anime (or less since manga > anime > movies) then all of the feats still apply. There is no new incarnation for Goku and company, they’re all the same. Meaning you using the Mach 1 water drop feat doesn’t matter because other feats surpass it by a wide margin.

    I say Beerus when trying and enraged is Mach 1 or less

    I say you’re blind and deaf as Bills outright states he wasn’t going full-power for that. Bills gets emotional over everything; saying “he’s mad so he went fullpower” holds no merit whatsoever.

    nothing you posted was proven to begin with.

    There’s that blanket statement again; best not be too free with those. Which isn’t proven? The length of Snake Way? Goku only taking two days to traverse it? Both of those are proven in the manga and anime, do you want scans for them? I thought you knew more, shouldn’t you know this already?

    Frieza is back again is he?

    That would be the newest movie; which comes after Battle of the Gods. Soul was talking about DBZ getting a new anime season; which would then be your precious “newest incarnation”.
    In other words, you’re not even calculating the newest incarnation.
    Good thing you know more about Dragonball than I do.

  39. Limbo Lowk June 2, 2015 at 4:41 pm -      #139

    “But each bullet is still following the same trajectory that anyone, including Roshi can see the gun is aiming.”

    Even with the kick back you’d still have to account for the person resisting it to keep the weapon aim in the right spot.
    Kitten essentially you option are he is faster then bullets. His mind procces fast enough to calculate where each bullet is going taking in every factor related to how guns work in between the fraction of a second the next bullet is fired, reacting in time to move his to that specfic place, and grabbing the bullet. Either way really proves that he has enhanced reaction. Or I guess remain contrarian.
    My money is on the last one.

  40. CH1C4N0444 is allergic to bullets June 2, 2015 at 5:30 pm -      #140

    Worth noting that Kitten has been using the anime, which is filled with filler, where a lot of the screaming and charge up times come from.

  41. Kitten Lord June 2, 2015 at 6:25 pm -      #141

    @Friendly

    ” You’d think if you had a valid point at least someone would’ve agreed by now.”

    Not at all, because I know for a fact I have a valid point with my evidence from Battle of the gods yet your ignoring that as well. You just keep hand waving it and saying its wrong even though its a far simpler deduction than the old bits of info your using. People not understanding my argument does not make it wrong.

    ” very easy to find examples of you being wrong.”

    Youve struggled for many posts trying to do just that like a man reaching desperately out of a mire. I am trying to save you but you refuse my hand out of principle.

    “Feel free to find me a speedster than can’t speak to his enemy”

    Feel free to stop trying to shift burden of proof. Whether or not I can find a speedster of any caliber has no bearing on whether your claim is true or not.

    “The reasoning behind the calc can be true or false”

    Right, and you have yet to make any comment beyond hand waving why my extremely simple calc on a very easy to gauge scene is poorly reasoned compared to your power scaling and assumptions…

    “That estimate was for how fast people have to be going for people to be unable to see them”

    Which is for that feat, as I pointed out lighting, distance, time all things that change. There is no set speed for what is hard for a person to see, its based on all those factors and more. He gave us a shot in the dark, a number to use for this scene. Truth is, as my sources and other shave said, even moving faster than light may not make you completely invisible unless the character was actually trying to avoid light itself.

    In reality we know in this flash stepping flair the pair are fighting a few meters around an arena…

    “Roshi and Krillen both exclaim the two are too fast to follow, exactly like they do for every other fight.”

    How are you surprised? Two human sized objects moving at Mach 2, darting about in the clouds, possibly over a mile or ten times that away from both of those characters….its hardly surprising especially without the ki sense to help they cannot follow them.

    “Where does that leave us?”


    If I recall I gave a suggestion of how ki may work in a vacuum, not a fact. This merely disproves my notion that the blast was fast that is all. See that is how proof works, clearly it is not FTL in a vacuum after all or for fear of making a hasty generalization that particular use of it was not.

    Course you have acceleration to consider, in this scene he fired it point blank at Beerus, acceleration suggests Ki may get faster the further it travels.

    “We know the minimum, which is what he used; if you’d like to say they aren’t peak human I suggest you present some sort of evidence to back up your claim.”

    Well lets put it this way, the strongest being in the series considers speed that would push SSG Goku to never be-foreseen limits is Mach 1, so imagine how much slower the RT of those lesser beings so much further down the hierarchy are to use your power scaling.

    “If you know DBZ so much better than I do then you should already know that all of that was true.”

    “Yep”

    Wasteful side stepping of burden of proof.

    “Know what the minimum was? ”

    Not yet, I know the maximum is in the Mach 1 area for combat speed, and around Mach 2-3 for flight.

    ” yet Piccolo was able to notice Goku just fine; which would make you wrong.”

    No I countered your comment for this, Piccolo says this earlier than before Beerus and Goku are going nuts int he higher cloud cover, while hes just flying out. Also Piccolo is not a human, so the fact Piccolo can see Mach speeds has no bearing on it.

    “Except in this case nobody has so much as budged ”

    Again so what? We do not get time still…..like I said there is a ton of stuff even in the scenes youve shown where they do not budge for minutes, tens of minutes….

    “I say you’re blind and deaf as Bills outright states he wasn’t going full-power for that.”

    I never said he was full power, infact Whis confirms that he never hit above 70% in the whole fight. That does not change the fact he was going slower than Mach 1 previously to that moment and was still pushing God Goku to the limit…as in, his belief is that the next step up in speed and effort is mach 1.

    Which is a feat we can gauge and have done so and is in line with the other scenes in the movie.

    “I thought you knew more, shouldn’t you know this already?”

    I never said I knew of those things, the length of snakeway I have heard before but I would like confirmation in this thread by scan. But the gravity and laws of physics in the “otherworld”? I do not know it. I do not know the size of Namek, so I need a scan for thta, I do not know how long it took Goku to traverse it, only the scan that said Kai predicted it would take 2 days, but how long did it take?

    All those things I have asked for and have yet to recieve.

    ” which would then be your precious “newest incarnation”.”

    indeed, by all means if this new season contradicts Battle of the gods feats concerning Beerus then i will bow to Akira’s new rethinking again, just like you should before it comes out concerning BoTG rather than ignoring his new work because it aids you in a debate to use the older stuff.

    @Lowk

    “Even with the kick back you’d still have to account for the person resisting it to keep the weapon aim in the right spot.”

    Indeed, another reaction to the person, not the bullet.

    “Kitten essentially you option are he is faster then bullets”

    Not necessary for any depiction of the feat, even the common bullet timing one I assume you agree with.

    “His mind procces fast enough to calculate where each bullet is going taking in every factor related to how guns work in between the fraction of a second the next bullet is fired”

    not at all, all he needs to do is predict the guns recoil, hes seen the weapon fireing before not that I would assume this man is a dimwit and had not in all his years come across recoil. This means he knows how it works, how the shooter aims and holds it and from there, predict trajectory of bullets without having to react to bullets themselves.

    “and grabbing the bullet”

    Saying “grabbing” is misleading, I prefer snatching, with slight movements of the tips of his fingers. As i said, he is clearly doing prey mantis style. Its not like he is opening his fingers fully each time and closing them again, his fingers as the scan shows remain in prey mantis style every snatch.

    “Either way really proves that he has enhanced reaction”

    Enhanced? Sure, enough so to oversell a flash stepping feat which was my initial gripe of Roshi being brought up? No….

    @Bullets

    “Worth noting that Kitten has been using the anime, which is filled with filler, where a lot of the screaming and charge up times come from.”

    A lot of people use the anime, including my opposition. And filler or not, its in the series. Anime is also where most of the speed feats even come from, you know, feats we can actually gauge as still manga scans do not always carry any time scale.

  42. Aelfinn June 2, 2015 at 6:52 pm -      #142

    I have never, in all my life, seen anyone try to argue that literally catching rapid-fire bullets was some kind of awkward aim-catching feat. Come on, Kitten, what kind of aim-catch is it if you’re able to time things down to 15 microseconds?

  43. Kitten Lord June 2, 2015 at 6:56 pm -      #143

    Seriously why would he have to consciously time 15 microseconds just to move his hand in line with the gun? Does his opponent have this irregular speed on this weapon? Hes fireing in one direction right at Roshi.

    Also where does 15 microseconds come from? We know the bullets cross the distance in that time but what are you saying takes Roshi some sort of feat of perception? If you can predict a bullet is traveling to a location you do not have to physically perceive it….

  44. CH1C4N0444 is allergic to bullets June 2, 2015 at 7:18 pm -      #144

    “indeed, by all means if this new season contradicts Battle of the gods feats concerning Beerus then i will bow to Akira’s new rethinking again, just like you should before it comes out concerning BoTG rather than ignoring his new work because it aids you in a debate to use the older stuff.”

    It’s not him “rethinking” his feats. By that point AT most likely figured that the people reading his work are familiar enough to understand that more often than not they’re moving at speeds that normal people can’t perceive since they were doing that as kids…

    And just because newer feats contradict older feats doesn’t dismiss the old feats….
    =
    “And filler or not, its in the series. ”

    Manga is the top canon, if a scene in the anime contradicts the manga by adding extra scenes or making certain scenes more exaggerated then it’s not canon since it contradicts the manga.
    =
    “Anime is also where most of the speed feats even come from, you know, feats we can actually gauge as still manga scans do not always carry any time scale.”

    Doesn’t stop us from doing the same in comics. And what I’m trying to say is using filler as a means to downplay a series is just silly. Sure, DB isn’t as powerful as it’s hyped to be, but trying to say that characters who are faster than they were previously based off of nothing other than filler is just ridiculous.

  45. Kitten Lord June 2, 2015 at 7:32 pm -      #145

    @Bullets

    “And just because newer feats contradict older feats doesn’t dismiss the old feats….”

    We use current incarnations, its kind of important when new work contradicts the old stuff. Depending on the feat if its a clear contradiction there is no logical reasoning to ignore it when Akira makes something new that changes how we perceive the old.

    “Manga is the top canon, if a scene in the anime contradicts the manga by adding extra scenes or making certain scenes more exaggerated then it’s not canon since it contradicts the manga.”

    An extra scene does not necessarily contradict the manga, a contradiction of the manga would require something in the anime to literally say something against what the manga says. For example if a scene in the anime says Krillin is the most powerful character in DBZ and the Manga says its Bills then the Manga takes precedence.

    Course, can we find any official source on what is, and is not canon and what levels of canon are beyond people claiming?

    “And what I’m trying to say is using filler as a means to downplay a series is just silly. ”

    You could call most showings in the anime filler, any feat of speed could be just as filler worthy as everything that makes the universe look slow. Also my main source of proof is not filler. Its form the official movie, not the anime show.

    “Sure, DB isn’t as powerful as it’s hyped to be, but trying to say that characters who are faster than they were previously based off of nothing other than filler is just ridiculous.”

    We have no real gauge of characters being “faster than they were”, just flash stepping flair that is meaningless as a feat and more rule of cool.

  46. Sauroposeidon June 2, 2015 at 7:51 pm -      #146

    “We use current incarnations”

    All combatants are considered to be at their current incarnations, or most recent incarnation prior to death and/or incapacitation that would prevent them from engaging in battle at optimum efficiency, within their own continuities unless otherwise specified by the battle’s scenario.

    I do not believe that you are adhering to the actual current incarnations rule. Nor are you understanding the term. I understand that trying to explain this to you is futile since you don’t actually have the mental faculties to comprehend anything that’s provided to you… However, despite your constant need to jump to conclusions, I thought I’d repost it for the benefit of everyone else.

    There are only two DBZ anime incarnations. One which splits off to go in to GT, and the newer one, which sticks with the original DBZ line and continues on with BoG. One can also argue DBZ+Movies->BoG (or GT), but I think generally for ease’s sake we include movie feats so long as any scaling involved doesn’t conflict with the anime. There is also the Manga incarnation, although the release of the movies I believe makes the anime line “most recent.”

    This does not mean “a character is limited to only what he has shown in his most recent appearance.” It means that you can’t use anything from DBZ->GT line in the DBZ->BoG line, or the other way around. Because it is not defined in the description, we assume we’re discussing the DBZ->BoG line. This does not mean ONLY the newest movie counts. Nor do we get to try and second guess the makers usually. I’ve tried that. It won’t work. Because all the other side has to do is say “I don’t believe you’re correct in your assessment of (CREATOR)’s thoughts.” You would need quotes. Like George Lucas mentioning that Boba Fett died in the Sarlaac Pit.

    Even then I would argue some instances of Word of God. Such as Cameron’s saying that a Thanator could defeat a T-Rex.

    So, going down the Word of God route, especially with out said word, is pointless, Kitten (and anyone else who was thinking of doing this.)

  47. Kitten Lord June 2, 2015 at 8:01 pm -      #147

    “. This does not mean ONLY the newest movie counts”

    Thing is, it is word of God that beerus is beyond SSG Goku, who is beyond all previous tiers in their little power scaling hierarchy. Which is something my opposition seems to be trying to avoid by posting ancient scans or anime that this new movie contradicts and which word of god confirms.

    “I do not believe that you are adhering to the actual current incarnations rule”

    Would you believe me if I said I do not care what you believe? Nothing what you said contradicted what I have said. It was my own belief tat BoG is the latest in the DBZ line, Resurection of F may surpass it though, not sure. This does not change the fact my BoG showing disproves the assumptions made in previous feats.

    I have not actually seen Akira specifcally write in his manga or in any other piece of anime the m/s a character moves.

  48. Sauroposeidon June 2, 2015 at 8:14 pm -      #148

    “Nothing what you said contradicted what I have said”

    Pearls before swine, folks. Did I predict it or did I predict it? =) It’s nice to have a punching bag but at this point, Kitten, all you’re really good for is inflating post counts in a thread more than they’d otherwise be.

  49. AbsoluteZero June 2, 2015 at 11:45 pm -      #149

    “Thing is, it is word of God that beerus is beyond SSG Goku, who is beyond all previous tiers in their little power scaling hierarchy. Which is something my opposition seems to be trying to avoid by posting ancient scans or anime that this new movie contradicts and which word of god confirms. ”

    This is true, SSG is much more powerful than any form Goku has assumed up to that point. And, is still weaker than Beerus.

    However. I don’t see how that fact makes all his previous feats worthless. Goku did fly snake way, as fast as he did. If anything, all of his prior feats should be enhanced by the fact he’s in a form that dwarfs them all.

    Seeing as you’re willing to take filler, such as screaming, charge ups, etc, as canon, a passage of time. I’ll be willing to get into this. You’ve also routinely, earlier in the thread, argued that Freeza is simply the most durable character, for surviving planetary explosions. You also noted that Cell is logically, less durable, but manages due to regeneration.

    Trunks evicerated Freeza with a sword. Cut him up into little pieces. This sword, would have to be capable of impacting small areas on Freeza’s body, harder than the explosive force of an exploding planet. This same sword, Goku later blocked with his finger tip, while in Super Saiyan state. As you stated in LoK threads, it’s perfectly fine to judge durability depending on force a blow has done on others. Trunks’ sword, must be capable of more force than an exploding planet in order to harm Freeza. Goku’s fingertip can tank an exploding planet.

    But wait, there’s more.

    Freeza also cut himself in half while copying Krillin’s Kienzan technique. This shows that the attack is also capable of exerting more force than an exploding planet. This same attack, (While this is filler, you don’t seem to have any issues using filler as signs of how long they take to do things.) Was later used on Cell. It shattered on Impact.

    The point i’m illustrating, is that DBZ has, and always has had, a reliance on power scaling. And while it can be a negative thing in debates, it’s something you have to aknowledge. The style of the animation isn’t a saving grace, as others have pointed out. This also happens in the manga. Manga is the truest canon, and contradicts the anime. The manga is correct.

    Also, because of your whole ki sensing thing. The idea that they block attacks due to sensing Ki, rather than actual speed, and reaction. The androids/cybrogs have no ki. Ergo, nothing they did should have been able to have been countered, by your explanation. Also, these were the same androids that resulted in Trunks breaking his sword on them. The sword that sliced apart Freeza. The guy who could survive exploding planets. That guy.

    I’m sure it’s nothing.

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Raiders of the Lost Ark - This is an amazing read on the thought process between George Lucas, Steven Spielberg and Lawrence Kasdan as they talk through the concepts of this amazing film. It's practically peering into the thought process of some of the most influential film makers of our day. And amazingly, shows how creative Lucas was.

Help Out Nepal

Finally a good reason to support Destiny.

Modern Gaming

Sad but true.

Curiosity Rover Spotted by Mars Orbiter on Mount Sharp

Humanity is the invading alien now...

Nope

No way I go here alone

17 Rare Star Wars Pictures

To see them, click here

Comic Con 2013 Cosplay Gallery

Just a ton of pictures of cosplayers from the 2013 Comic Con event

Ancient Aliens Map

If you ever watched the show "Ancient Aliens" and wanted a quick reference to where all the locations they mention are at, this is the site for you!

Fictional Universes Database

Soon to be shut down by Google, but here is a great starting point for Fictional Universes

99 Star Wars Pics

Some are cool, some are a bit absurd, but they are all based on Star Wars

Alternate Movie Posters

Something a bit distinct - Check them out

Epic Swiss Army Knife

Not Really...

Future Me

Write yourself an email letter to the future - Future Me

Neil Degrasse Tyson

Star Talk Radio - As always, keep looking up!