Lexell Kotov’s Explorator Fleet Vs Coruscant

Lexell Kotov's Explorator Fleet Vs Coruscant

Suggested by Rookie

Lexell Kotov’s Explorator Fleet (Warhammer 40 000) Vs Coruscant (Star Wars)

Magos Lexell Kotov will lead his fleet against Coruscant (under the rule of the Galactic Empire, EU feats and info allowed) while Darth Vader‘s personal fleet of Star Destroyers (in it’s prime), famous Death Squadron will try to defend the planet. All planet defence forces are also active and they also received reinforcements, 3000 Phase I dark troopers, 1000 Phase II dark troopers and 200 Phase III dark trooper arrived to help in ground defence. Emperor Palpatine is also present on the planet.

Planet destruction is not allowed, to win Lexell Kotov’s forces must capture Imperial Palace and hold it for at least three days. Almost any amount of collateral damage to the planet allowed, but Imperial Palace must be captured mostly intact.

Coruscant will get no reinforcement from other planets and systems untill the end of this fight. If they can hold out for 10 days, this is counts as win for their side.

Who will win?

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285 Comments on "Lexell Kotov’s Explorator Fleet Vs Coruscant"

  1. Sauroposeidon May 26, 2015 at 9:04 am -      #101

    “A completely united mankind parodies sw’s empire?”

    It’s not completely unified. Case in point, pretty much anyone who meets the Tau realizes what’s good for them.

    “That is not a specialized class of ship. ”

    I didn’t say that particular ship was specialized, but I’d have to go back and look at their various frigates to be honest.

    “you still get left with biggatons that are several orders of magnitude greater than SW ships.”

    Death Star.

    Done.

    Now let’s pretend that its feats mean all SW ships easily curb stomp any 40k ship.

    I don’t know if you realize it, but this is what it comes off as what you are saying.

    “And these effect shield strength how? Nurgle will toughen the armour, not the shields. And I’m pretty sure the quote in question took place during the Horus Heresy, which means it wasn’t even Chaos infected then.”

    Then I would suggest you find them, and a few more of other ships of the same class doing similar feats. The problem with 40k is that we need some level of consistency or we end up with nonsense all over the place, thanks to the extreme low end and extreme high end showings, and the nigh constant hyperbole since 40k writing is littered with shitty authors.

  2. pimpmage May 26, 2015 at 10:40 am -      #102

    A nova cannon shot against a ship directly means that ship resisted a planet shattering hit. = shield strength. Even if you scaled shield capability by tonnage, even frigates would block a death star shot. Yet you somehow think a death star weapon translates to weapons of smaller ships WHY? Smaller ships do not carry the main weapon of a death star.

  3. GrandMaster May 26, 2015 at 10:50 am -      #103

    “Almost every time we see a Clone Trooper, Storm Trooper get shot in the films or TV series. Can you provide proof of fist-sized holes? You never did prove it in the ARC troopers vs Kasrkin thread.”

    m.youtube.com/watch?v=oMbOWoHPbvU&itct=CCEQpDAYASITCNy-nZLL38UCFYKvfgodUQ4ATTIHcmVsYXRlZEixvJqj59rhlbAB
    m.youtube.com/watch?v=mKEX6QJ-zlQ

    There’s also plenty of examples of b1 battle droids being blown apart, several examples of B2 (who had tougher than human exteriors) being cored by a blaster, and we have Grievous’ entire torso igniting from 1 shot. Now please go ahead and show me all the low end Blasters people use as the gospel for SW firepower, you’ll find that their aren’t that many.

    “Pg.561 Nemesis”

    The thing about GW and Black Library is that they love hyperbole, show me deeds not words.

    “Not in 40k, they are pretty much just fodder ships. Extremely mass produced and left in all imperial controlled systems.”

    Considering that most 40k fleets consist of less than 100 ships, they really aren’t fodder. The problem is is that the GE massively outnumbers the invading fleet in ship for ship. The only thing that is going to cause lots of trouble is the Relic Ship. Which is going to be a fossil ship after Palpatine opens a wormhole inside of it.

    “I knew it was a chaos ship. It still widstood two fucking planet mass scattering nova cannon shots.”

    Nova Cannons don’t mass scatter they crack crust. Big difference

    “You know what I like about this match? That 40k forces are actually able to force an engagement with SW. Completely unlike the universe matches where SW debate strat was to completely avoid any outright combat with 40k stuff. Its satisfying to ‘metaphorically’ punch that snot nosed kid blowing raspberries at me from over the fence.”

    That may have been a reason why the GE beats the IOM but it isn’t the only 1. The main one is that the GE’s industrial power shits all over the IOMs. The GE built a 900KM wide Death Star in 4~ years, it takes the IOM 100 years to build their biggest class of ship which is only 6Km. By the time the IOM has organized a crusade, the GE will have expanded their industry 10-fold.

    On the ship vs ship front, yes, your average Imperial ship is packing more power and durability. Because it’s bigger. Which is countered by the IOM having way less ships than the GE. On a firepower to firepower basis, you have Nova Cannons only mounted on the biggest IOM ships. The GE mounts similar weapons on their biggest ships. And, for a full Exterminatus it requires a fleet of IOM ships and a Cyclone missile to finish the job. The GE can do it with only 3 ships and don’t need a cyclone. The firepower of the 2 is so close it is basically the same. Yes, 40K has some big hyperbole putting them in the Tera-Petatons, but so does SW.

    “Where did the pull the ‘most durable ship in the entirety of the franchise thing’ from? The Terminus Est is merely fairly tough for something of it’s class, and was nearly destroyed at least once.”

    The Terminus Est is a Relic ship. It wasn’t built by the IOM so it really can’t be used as a comparison.

  4. pimpmage May 26, 2015 at 11:13 am -      #104

    “Which is going to be a fossil ship after Palpatine opens a wormhole inside of it.”

    Except the emperor will realize how futile it is when his wormhole barely encompasses the smallest bits of the ship.

    “it takes the IOM 100 years to build their biggest class of ship which is only 6Km. ”

    I seem to recall a ship class being built during the horus heresy that dwarfed even emperor class battleships. The book mentions them being on par with a star fort. It, along with its 2 sister ships were built in secret over the course of a decade or two. The book is called ‘battle for the abyss’, the abyss being the name of one of the ships. And in the book ‘betrayer’, two of these ships alone wrecked fleets of a couple hundred loyalist ships.

    ” On a firepower to firepower basis, you have Nova Cannons only mounted on the biggest IOM ships.”

    Not true, nova cannons can be mounted on any class of cruiser or battleship.

    “And, for a full Exterminatus it requires a fleet of IOM ships and a Cyclone missile to finish the job.”

    A nova cannon/= cyclone missiles. A nova cannon would mass scatter the planet, and the planet behind that, and the one behind that. A cyclone missile Is meant to life wipe. Not destroy planets.

    “The Terminus Est is a Relic ship. It wasn’t built by the IOM so it really can’t be used as a comparison.”

    What the fuck is this? That ship is not a relic. Yes, it’s a great comparison.

  5. GrandMaster May 26, 2015 at 11:38 am -      #105

    “Except the emperor will realize how futile it is when his wormhole barely encompasses the smallest bits of the ship.”

    The Force Storm was sucking up an entire fleet, if the Relic Ship Is only 60Km and is placed inside of it, the storm should have no problem chewing it up in a couple hours and should do massive damage instantaneously.

    “I seem to recall a ship class being built during the horus heresy that dwarfed even emperor class battleships. The book mentions them being on par with a star fort. It, along with its 2 sister ships were built in secret over the course of a decade or two. The book is called ‘battle for the abyss’, the abyss being the name of one of the ships. And in the book ‘betrayer’, two of these ships alone wrecked fleets of a couple hundred loyalist ships.”

    The 3 Abyss Class Ships were bigger yes, probably reaching 20Km. They were also built in 30K when the Imperium was young and not technologically regressed like they are in 40K. And it took them 40 years to build them in the biggest shipyard the IOM has. While a nice feat for pre-heresy industrial power, it still dosent compare to building the Death Star II in 4 years.

    “Not true, nova cannons can be mounted on any class of cruiser or battleship.”

    Those are the 2 biggest class of ships…

    “A nova cannon/= cyclone missiles. A nova cannon would mass scatter the planet, and the planet behind that, and the one behind that. A cyclone missile Is meant to life wipe. Not destroy planets.”

    Nova Cannon is specifically crust cracking nowhere does it show the firepower your speaking of. It’s also incredibly difficult to operate and inaccurate to the point most commanders don’t like them.

    “What the fuck is this? That ship is not a relic. Yes, it’s a great comparison.”

    “As the Imperium expanded, so too did its fleets. Countless long lost wonders of technology were recovered, some wrested from the dead hands of unwilling custodians, and others surrendered willingly as a fitting tribute to the Master of Mankind. Some vessels were unique, constructed by methods even the most accomplished Adepts of Mars could not hope to replicate: The Terminus Est, The Nicor, The Mirabilis and the Phalanx foremost among them.”
    -Horus Heresy Book 2: Massacre, Page 16

  6. itcheyness May 26, 2015 at 11:41 am -      #106

    “Except the emperor will realize how futile it is when his wormhole barely encompasses the smallest bits of the ship.”

    He’ll use it like a scalpel to remove the engines and weapons and then carve up the ship at his leisure.

    “I seem to recall a ship class being built during the horus heresy that dwarfed even emperor class battleships. The book mentions them being on par with a star fort. It, along with its 2 sister ships were built in secret over the course of a decade or two. The book is called ‘battle for the abyss’, the abyss being the name of one of the ships. And in the book ‘betrayer’, two of these ships alone wrecked fleets of a couple hundred loyalist ships.”

    I seem to recall the current IoM being a shadow of what it was during the Great Crusade…

    “A nova cannon would mass scatter the planet, and the planet behind that, and the one behind that.”

    I assume that you have a quote where a nova cannon does exactly that, right?

    “That ship is not a relic. Yes, it’s a great comparison.”

    The ship predates the Great Crusade and as far as I know was the only one of its class. It’s not a great comparison because it’s feat of tanking the nova cannon shots happened after 10,000 years of Nurgle infecting and strengthening it (Cadian Blood taking place during the 13th Black Crusade and all).

  7. pimpmage May 26, 2015 at 11:47 am -      #107

    Oh, I thought the est was a corrupted battle barge. That’s neat, I gotta read up I on that.This match is the first I’ve read that relic ships exist like the black hole shooting one and the est.

  8. Aelfinn May 26, 2015 at 11:56 am -      #108

    As far as I was aware, 40K started off as a joke about Warhammer in spaaaaaace, and wasn’t really a parody of anything in particular, except maybe the grim darkness of darky grim.
    =
    =
    @pimpmage
    Petatons is not enough to mass-scatter planets.
    =
    =
    ” if the Relic Ship Is only 60Km and is placed inside of it, the storm should have no problem chewing it up in a couple hours and should do massive damage instantaneously.”

    Except it should be far bigger than 60 km. The quote flat-out states it has the gravity distortion of a moon. Even if it’s 10 times as dense as a moon, it still has to be huge. Also, since when is Palpatine that accurate with his Force storms, and did we completely forget about the Gellar Fields (and Void Shields)?
    =
    “The GE can do it with only 3 ships and don’t need a cyclone. The firepower of the 2 is so close it is basically the same. Yes, 40K has some big hyperbole putting them in the Tera-Petatons, but so does SW.”

    3 Imperial Ships can’t life-wipe a planet in any serious amount of time. They are seriously out-classed in this fight right here right now. Also, I don’t think it is hyperbole. “It can boil oceans and crack continents” seems like a pretty cut-and-dry statement to me. Not to mention that the Nova Cannon petaton-calcs come from an estimation of their size, their estimated mass, and the fact that they are fired at relativistic speeds. In fact, I’m pretty sure the petaton calcs completely ignore the explosive component of the Nova Cannon.

  9. GrandMaster May 26, 2015 at 12:27 pm -      #109

    “Except it should be far bigger than 60 km. The quote flat-out states it has the gravity distortion of a moon. Even if it’s 10 times as dense as a moon, it still has to be huge. Also, since when is Palpatine that accurate with his Force storms, and did we completely forget about the Gellar Fields (and Void Shields)?”

    Standard Imperial protocol is to deactivate geller fields after exiting the warp, as they take power away from shields and weapons. And Force Storms are generally continent to life wiping level attacks. And he only thing that needs to be destroyed is the engines.

    “3 Imperial Ships can’t life-wipe a planet in any serious amount of time. They are seriously out-classed in this fight right here right now. Also, I don’t think it is hyperbole. “It can boil oceans and crack continents” seems like a pretty cut-and-dry statement to me. Not to mention that the Nova Cannon petaton-calcs come from an estimation of their size, their estimated mass, and the fact that they are fired at relativistic speeds. In fact, I’m pretty sure the petaton calcs completely ignore the explosive component of the Nova Cannon.”

    starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Base_Delta_Zero
    ISDs commonly did this. It took an entire fleet, but it has happened multiple times. And yes, Nova Cannons are Petatons. But their inaccurate for use in anything but planetary bombardment, which is made much harder with the planetary shield in play.

  10. pimpmage May 26, 2015 at 12:45 pm -      #110

    How would something being fired at near lightspeed be inaccurate? That’s more accurate than torpedoes and macro batteries, both of which are used in all ship to ship battles. Also, ships traveling in the eye of terror are known to leave gellar fields on at all time. Even outside the warp. If the fleet finds out people are using warp equivalent powers against their ships, they will activate gellar fields.

  11. GrandMaster May 26, 2015 at 12:53 pm -      #111

    “How would something being fired at near lightspeed be inaccurate? That’s more accurate than torpedoes and macro batteries, both of which are used in all ship to ship battles. Also, ships traveling in the eye of terror are known to leave gellar fields on at all time. Even outside the warp. If the fleet finds out people are using warp equivalent powers against their ships, they will activate gellar fields.”

    According to the Lexicanum article, they are inaccurate. And yes ships in the Eye use Geller Fields. But this isn’t the Eye. And if they do activate geller fields their combat effectiveness will go down drastically. We also have never seen geller fields work against offensive psychic powers, all they do is keep daemons out.

  12. Rookie May 26, 2015 at 12:59 pm -      #112

    @pimpmage

    “It seems cadians are known to have psykers in other books. But how many regiments do the cadians have? IG regiments have shown to be anywhere from a few hundred to tens of thousands according to the lexicanium. And I know of one book that shows a regiment having only 3 sanctioned psykers. But given the rarity of psykers compared to the commonality of IG soldiers, there would only be 1 psyker per maybeeee 1 million IG troops.”

    Here is the quote from the Gods of Mars:

    “‘Then do you have strength enough to send a message to one of your kind aboard the Speranza?’ said Kotov.

    ‘There are none of my kind left aboard your ship,’ snapped Bielanna. ‘We are all that remains.’

    ‘Then send a message to one of the Cadian beta level battle-psykers or one of my ship’s astropaths,’ snapped Kotov.”

    @GrandMaster

    “Standard Imperial protocol is to deactivate geller fields after exiting the warp, as they take power away from shields and weapons. And Force Storms are generally continent to life wiping level attacks. And he only thing that needs to be destroyed is the engines.”

    Found something. in Lords of Mars main villain used Breach of Gods (C’tan shard) to remade system:

    “The reticulated net of light surrounding Katen Venia pulsed with one last exhalation.

    And exploded outwards in an onrushing tidal wave of photons and exotic particles that had not been seen in such concentrations for nearly fourteen billion years.

    “Moments before the rapidly expanding energy shockwave exploded outwards from the doomed world, every square metre of ray shielding and every functional void pylon ignited across the Speranza. Every ship of the Kotov fleet found its shields flare into life and its external augurs shut down at the same moment, each captain at a loss as to the source of the initiating command.

    The surging explosion of high energy flux, huge particle densities and pressures slammed past the Kotov fleet, scattering its ships like a spiteful warp fluctuation. Saiixek’s work to re-orientate the Speranza did much to mitigate the damage of the blast wave; the sheer mass of the Ark Mechanicus allowed it to ride out the worst of the explosion’s force. ”

    “Almost as soon as the blast wave passed over the fleet, a phase transition occurred, causing an exponential expansion of remodelled space-time. Passive auspex on the external surfaces of the Speranza registered an ultra-rapid spike in temperature caused by the high-energy photon density. Particle/antiparticle pairs of all descriptions were being instantaneously created and destroyed in violent collisions of sub-atomic matter – and only one other instant in history had achieved such a violent moment of creation.

    But this was no creation of a universe, this was that force harnessed by incomparably ancient technology and bent to another purpose altogether.

    Alone and isolated, the ships of the Kotov fleet battened down the hatches and rode out the storm of unleashed energies, fighting to hold their position in a ferocious upheaval of system-wide gravitational fluxions that could tear them apart in a heartbeat. Compared to the forces of matter transition being wielded in the Arcturus Ultra system, the titanic power of the Halo Scar paled in comparison. Tossed and swatted through space like leaves in a storm and not knowing if any of the other vessels were still alive, each captain fought to keep their ship intact until the fury of this stellar event was spent.

    It took a further seven hours before the raging swells of high-energy particles and hyper-charged gravitational wavefronts had dissipated enough for any of the fleet vessels to risk deploying surveyor arrays. Travelling at near light-speed, whatever had exploded from Katen Venia would certainly have reached the star at the heart of the system by now. Having weathered the storm better than most, the Speranza was first to tentatively probe the void in an attempt to learn what had just happened.”

    “Arcturus Ultra was no longer a dying red giant, a bloated destroyer in its last incarnation before its explosive death as a supernova.

    Now it burned as a life-sustaining main sequence star.”

    “Despite the as-yet-unexplained loss of numerous work gangs below the waterline, the Speranza was being restored to its former glory. With enough raw materials – something the fleet’s support vessels were expending at a ruinous rate – the Ark Fabricatus boasted he could rebuild the entirety of the Speranza before they reached the source of the Adeptus Mechanicus transmissions.”

    Can this help us to find out if IoM ships can survive Palpatine force storms?

    @Sauroposeidon

    “Considering the GE apparently gets thousands of ships in this battle, they have a strong showing. They get their proton gun too, which is nice. No death stars like I thought, but they bring a serious ground game to counter invasion.

    Looking at the numbers for the IoM ground game I don’t think they can take this with out massive fuck ups on the GE part (which, is something that could happen, let’s be honest), but I don’t see it being something that could cost them enough out of 100 matches to lose this.

    In space, I don’t know how many ships they have. But it’d have to be a damn lot to counter that many Imperial ships. It really depends on if they can bring enough numbers to just muscle their way through this. If not, then they have no way to win this. The Galactic Empire enjoys surgical precision strikes in space combat, and will probably slice away the fleet like a loaf of bread if they can’t bring enough fire power to force the GE in to a stand up fight.

    Ion Guns and bombers keep this fight in their favor mostly it seems in my opinion.

    It does seem odd that the GE has to wait 10 days for support, by the way, when it takes everyone else mere hours to get anywhere in the galaxy. But whatever, thems the rules.”

    Thanks!
    So GE wins for now. I hoped that it could be more even, but I can live with that.

  13. pimpmage May 26, 2015 at 1:11 pm -      #113

    Did those ships withstand a supernova? Or did I misread that?

  14. Rookie May 26, 2015 at 1:18 pm -      #114

    @pimpmage

    “Did those ships withstand a supernova? Or did I misread that?”

    Entire system was remade anew. While author mentioned supernova, the whole event was described as mini local big bang + time manipulation to force new system to “appear” earlier.
    So…. dunno if we can calculate what exactly they survived. I mean (long story short) there was one old system with dying star, then boom and new system with fresh star appear all while IoM ships were inside the system. I am not smart enough to tell what the hell did they survived. I mean they were at the edge of the system, not in “core”. But all IoM ships survived this.

  15. Aelfinn May 26, 2015 at 1:30 pm -      #115

    “But their inaccurate for use in anything but planetary bombardment, which is made much harder with the planetary shield in play.”

    No, they are commonly used in anti-ship capacities, and ONE will not only punch through a Star Destroyer, but the thousand Star Destroyers lined up behind it as well. Also, did you read NONE of my quotes? The planetary shield gets taken down by ELECTRICAL STORMS, they’ll be lost in the first volley from any one of the Imperium’s ships. They mean practically nothing.
    =
    “And Force Storms are generally continent to life wiping level attacks. And he only thing that needs to be destroyed is the engines.”

    Ya wanna show this happening? All I’ve seen are a couple fleets be taken out.
    =
    “ISDs commonly did this. It took an entire fleet, but it has happened multiple times.”

    How long did it take? What level of destruction was it? If you take three weeks to destroy every city, that’s nowhere near the same thing as Imperial ships life-wiping with one Nova Cannon shot. Also, sometimes BDZ don’t “turn the crust to slag”, they just destroy civilization.
    =
    “Can this help us to find out if IoM ships can survive Palpatine force storms?”

    Well, that’s them surviving an explosion of energy that can somehow change a red supergiant to a main sequence star…so probably. I mean, it’s directly compared to the Big Bang.
    =
    =
    “Considering the GE apparently gets thousands of ships in this battle, they have a strong showing.”

    Wait, WHAT? Since when? Which of Darth Vader’s fleets had thousands of ships in it?
    =
    “Looking at the numbers for the IoM ground game I don’t think they can take this with out massive fuck ups on the GE part (which, is something that could happen, let’s be honest), but I don’t see it being something that could cost them enough out of 100 matches to lose this.”

    Also, WHAT? Individual Mechanicus soldiers are enough to handle the Phase 3 Dark Troopers, and the rest can be taken out with conventional weaponry. The IoM can send an entire army directly on top of the Imperial Palace and out-number and out-gun every force there.
    =
    “So GE wins for now. I hoped that it could be more even, but I can live with that.”

    Disagree, disagree, disagree. If anything, the IoM holds most of the advantages here.

  16. pimpmage May 26, 2015 at 1:30 pm -      #116

    I’d say that is pretty significant. Even though necrons use tech that is so complex it seems like magic, those ships withstood the uncreation and recreation of a solar system. Real physical change. That’s pretty damn cool.

  17. Rookie May 26, 2015 at 1:32 pm -      #117

    @pimpmage

    “That’s pretty damn cool.”

    I dunno. Can this even be calculated into damage resistance and durability?

  18. Friendlysociopath May 26, 2015 at 1:37 pm -      #118

    Well, that’s them surviving an explosion of energy that can somehow change a red supergiant to a main sequence star…so probably. I mean, it’s directly compared to the Big Bang.

    But don’t they get taken down by far lesser forces than that? All of the time? This seems wonky to me.

  19. Rookie May 26, 2015 at 1:42 pm -      #119

    @Aelfinn

    “Except it should be far bigger than 60 km. The quote flat-out states it has the gravity distortion of a moon. Even if it’s 10 times as dense as a moon, it still has to be huge.”

    Can this help us to find out size of Speranza?

    “…. approach run to the vast superstructure of the Ark Mechanicus. Though six hundred kilometres still separated the two vessels, the flank of Lexell Kotov’s flagship filled the viewing bay.”

    @Friendlysociopath

    “But don’t they get taken down by far lesser forces than that? All of the time? This seems wonky to me.”

    AFAIK yes and this is what troubles me. I can buy that Speranza can survive it (it is a ship from Dark Age after all) but others? Maybe it is because they belong to Mechanicus… but not sure.

  20. Aelfinn May 26, 2015 at 2:26 pm -      #120

    “Can this even be calculated into damage resistance and durability?”

    Maybe. It should be a doozy, and I would likely have to figure out the density of the universe post-inflation.

  21. Super Combine May 26, 2015 at 2:26 pm -      #121

    It took 7 hours for the beam to reach the star at near light speed, so the fleet was about 4.7 billion miles away (7.5 billion km). A lot of the stellar mass being thrown out would be spread out. If they had been hit by the supernova.

    The thing about the quote though is that it mentions the Speranza was sending out probes to see what happened when the beam hit the star and was surprised the star had undergone a supernova. There was no mention of the supernova hitting the ships, it was just the beam. At any rate, it would have taken many more hours after the star went supernova for it’s shock wave to reach the fleet. Unless I’m missing something, it doesn’t look like they got caught by the supernova at all.

    “Travelling at near light-speed, whatever had exploded from Katen Venia would certainly have reached the star at the heart of the system by now. Having weathered the storm better than most, the Speranza was first to tentatively probe the void in an attempt to learn what had just happened.”

  22. Tacotown99 May 26, 2015 at 2:27 pm -      #122

    Rookie if we were to try that we would need to know the size of that viewport, then you can get an angle from that for what you can see, then exspand it to you reach 600km

  23. Aelfinn May 26, 2015 at 2:30 pm -      #123

    I don’t think it was a supernova. It appeared to be some Necron artifact that created a web of light around the PLANET. The ships were near the planet, and this web of light released some kind of crazy, primordial, intense mix of after-Big Bang energies that passed over them and reached the star.

  24. Super Combine May 26, 2015 at 2:36 pm -      #124

    @Aelfinn
    Meant to direct it at pimpmage at #113. Should have refreshed page before posting =/

  25. Aelfinn May 26, 2015 at 3:26 pm -      #125

    “Meant to direct it at pimpmage at #113. Should have refreshed page before posting =/”

    Well poo.
    =
    Anyway, first on the agenda is to try to figure out how big that one big-ass ship is.

    www.physicsclassroom.com/class/circles/Lesson-3/The-Value-of-g
    www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=density%20of%20steel

    Now, when the quote says the ship has the same “gravity shadow” or whatever as an unstable moon, that could mean a lot of things. I take this to mean that they have the same acceleration due to gravity on their surface. This is probably the best way to say that “their gravities are the same”, which is what is implied in the quote. I will also use Pluto in this estimate, as Pluto is smaller than Earth’s Moon. Our Moon is actually particularly big, so I should use something smaller. I’m also going to have to assume this ship is a sphere.

    Pluto has an acceleration due to gravity of 0.61 m/s^2.

    I will assume the ship has half the density of steel, or 4025 kilograms per cubic meter. This should account for the empty space in the ship (although I surmise that I could probably use the ratio between an aircraft carrier’s mass and volume for this calc).

    Knowing that density is equal to mass divided by volume, and that volume of a sphere is equal to (4/3) * pi * radius cubed, I can figure out the radius to be equal to the cube root of (3M / (4 *pi * D))

    This means that the acceleration due to gravity is equal to (G*M) / ((3M)/(4*pi*D))^2/3, as the acceleration due to gravity equation is g = G * M / r^2.

    Solving for mass means the ship has a mass of 2.68 * 10^21 kilograms.

    Plugging it back into the equation means the ship has a radius of 541 kilometers.

  26. pimpmage May 26, 2015 at 3:33 pm -      #126

    Holy shit, that makes the largest capital ships look like ants…

  27. Aelfinn May 26, 2015 at 3:41 pm -      #127

    Btw, that means the ship would be 1082 kilometers across.

    To put that into perspective, the country of France is 950 kilometers across.

  28. pimpmage May 26, 2015 at 3:45 pm -      #128

    As always, thanks for the calcs aelf. This site wouldn’t be the same without you.

  29. Aelfinn May 26, 2015 at 4:02 pm -      #129

    “As always, thanks for the calcs aelf. This site wouldn’t be the same without you.”

    Ah, it’s no problem. Calcs really are their own reward.

  30. itcheyness May 26, 2015 at 4:20 pm -      #130

    I just had a wicked idea, what’s to stop the Empire from crewing their ships with some droids and suicide bombing the IoM ships?

    Specifically, it’s mentioned in the EU that a single ship having its hyperdrive accidentally engaged and sending it into a planet cracked it down to its core and rendered the surface completely uninhabitable.

    With a couple thousand ships in this battle The Empire could just pelt Speranza with ships traveling too fast to hit and destroy it that way.

    While Palpatine carves it up from the inside out with his mind controlled wormhole of doom.

  31. Friendlysociopath May 26, 2015 at 4:32 pm -      #131

    Specifically, it’s mentioned in the EU that a single ship having its hyperdrive accidentally engaged and sending it into a planet cracked it down to its core and rendered the surface completely uninhabitable.

    O_O
    Could we get a quote on that? Or a link? That sounds obscenely outrageous, I love it.
    Oh hey, found it; Google is a friend to all
    starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Destruction_of_Pammant

  32. pimpmage May 26, 2015 at 4:33 pm -      #132

    Was that ever a tactic used in the sw verse? No? There is your answer.

  33. Aelfinn May 26, 2015 at 4:52 pm -      #133

    “Almost as soon as the blast wave passed over the fleet, a phase transition occurred, causing an exponential expansion of remodelled space-time. Passive auspex on the external surfaces of the Speranza registered an ultra-rapid spike in temperature caused by the high-energy photon density. Particle/antiparticle pairs of all descriptions were being instantaneously created and destroyed in violent collisions of sub-atomic matter –”

    This appears to be the state of the universe after “inflation” ended and it continued to expand. At this point, the universe was 10^28 degrees.

    The energy of a gas is equal to 3/2RT.
    chemed.chem.purdue.edu/genchem/topicreview/bp/ch21/chemical.php

    This would imply that, per single MOLE of material, the explosion is carrying 1.2 * 10^30 joules of energy. Or a little less than the energy required to blow up Mercury. Considering how many moles of material likely hit the ships, either this feat is an outlier, or IoM ships can survive planet-busting amount of energy.
    =
    =
    Or…if I calc the kinetic energy of particles moving at relativistic speeds…
    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang

    Okay, so AFTER the state I was talking about, the universe was as dense as air. This makes this calc a low-end.

    So let’s calc something for a 1-kilometer by 1-kilometer by 1-kilometer block of this matter moving at 99% the speed of light. They were clearly hit by more than that, but again, low-end.

    Air has a density of 1.225 kg per cubic meter. There are one billion cubic meters in a cubic kilometer, so it was 1225000000 kg.

    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinetic_energy#Relativistic_kinetic_energy_of_rigid_bodies

    This comes to a total energy transfer of 6.7 * 10^26 Joules.

    Or 160 petatons.

  34. pimpmage May 26, 2015 at 4:59 pm -      #134

    Honestly, that’s in line with other high end feats. Lends credibility.

  35. Aelfinn May 26, 2015 at 4:59 pm -      #135

    “what’s to stop the Empire from crewing their ships with some droids and suicide bombing the IoM ships?”

    The fact that hyperdrives are literally NEVER changed to allow jumps to hyperspace while inside of a gravity well? The Empire built a specific Star Destroyer to exploit this fact. It projected a large gravity well in hyperspace, and this caused all Rebel ships from being unable to jump to hyperspace to escape. And the Rebels never just disabled the safety feature.

    In fact, the proximity to Coruscant and the Speranza should prevent any jumps to Hyperspace whatsoever.

  36. Jake_Uzumaki May 26, 2015 at 5:11 pm -      #136

    @Aelfinn
    well except for one time in the Clone Wars where Padme and Anakin specifically screwed with the navigation and Hyperdrive so that the Malevolence would jump straight into a planet, not quite the same tactic…but same concept.

    plus the only thing stopping ships and that an Interdictor exploits are ship sensors that specifically deal with that, it should be possible to turn said sensors off, if inadvisable in most circumstances.

  37. pimpmage May 26, 2015 at 5:12 pm -      #137

    Wouldn’t ships like the ssd ruin themselves because their own gravity effects their jumps?

  38. Jake_Uzumaki May 26, 2015 at 5:20 pm -      #138

    my bad it was a moon that the Malevolence was forced to ftl jump into edit: jump to about 20:27

  39. itcheyness May 26, 2015 at 5:23 pm -      #139

    “The fact that hyperdrives are literally NEVER changed to allow jumps to hyperspace while inside of a gravity well?”

    because it would be suicidal to do so, which is neatly solved by the ships being uncrewed and not required to come back.

    “The Empire built a specific Star Destroyer to exploit this fact. It projected a large gravity well in hyperspace, and this caused all Rebel ships from being unable to jump to hyperspace to escape. And the Rebels never just disabled the safety feature.”

    PIS, and the fact that they’re not suicidal or willing to risk the lives of possibly millions of people if they hit a heavily populated world.

    “In fact, the proximity to Coruscant and the Speranza should prevent any jumps to Hyperspace whatsoever.”

    The proximity to Pammant didn’t stop the Quaestor’s accidental jump.

  40. Aelfinn May 26, 2015 at 5:44 pm -      #140

    “Wouldn’t ships like the ssd ruin themselves because their own gravity effects their jumps?”

    I think the special SSD could turn it on or off, but the other SSD’s don’t have enough gravity to cause the problems.
    =
    “PIS,”

    Or it’s such an integral part of the hyperdrive that only damaged hyperdrives do it. As seen in…every case where it happens.
    =
    “well except for one time in the Clone Wars where Padme and Anakin specifically screwed with the navigation and Hyperdrive so that the Malevolence would jump straight into a planet, not quite the same tactic…but same concept.”

    And this event showed a moon specifically NOT getting cored.

  41. GrandMaster May 26, 2015 at 5:53 pm -      #141

    “No, they are commonly used in anti-ship capacities, and ONE will not only punch through a Star Destroyer, but the thousand Star Destroyers lined up behind it as well. Also, did you read NONE of my quotes? The planetary shield gets taken down by ELECTRICAL STORMS, they’ll be lost in the first volley from any one of the Imperium’s ships. They mean practically nothing.”

    The shield got taken down by Vong Ships, which suicide bombed the shield. And when you consider that most Vong Ships tend to be very big (5km+), and the meteor that ended the dinosaurs was around 5 miles wide, it’s kind of impressive really. And Imperial Ships fight at incredibly long ranges in the EU, so them being packed together like Sardines waiting for a Nova Cannon shell is not going to happen.

    “Ya wanna show this happening? All I’ve seen are a couple fleets be taken out.”

    starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Force_storm_%28wormhole%29
    They could ravage the surface of planets and according to Luke “kill a planet” It also destroyed a 20Km long SSD and its escort fleet

    “How long did it take? What level of destruction was it? If you take three weeks to destroy every city, that’s nowhere near the same thing as Imperial ships life-wiping with one Nova Cannon shot. Also, sometimes BDZ don’t “turn the crust to slag”, they just destroy civilization.”

    Well, a single Star Destroyer can supposedly preform 1 in less than a day, but I’ll accept that as a high end feat. from the canon BDZs we have seen, I would argue it wouldn’t take more than a 12 hours for a fleet. I can post some scans if necessary. And from the scans I have seen, it is most definitely melting the crust. The explosions from the turbolasers can be seen from orbit.

    “Well, that’s them surviving an explosion of energy that can somehow change a red supergiant to a main sequence star…so probably. I mean, it’s directly compared to the Big Bang.”

    It’s not clear what is going on there. It started off sounding like a supernova, then the Big Bang, and then time-fuckery. I don’t think it is a quantifiable feat.

    “Wait, WHAT? Since when? Which of Darth Vader’s fleets had thousands of ships in it?”

    I think he’s talking about the entire Coruscanti Defense Fleet

    “Also, WHAT? Individual Mechanicus soldiers are enough to handle the Phase 3 Dark Troopers, and the rest can be taken out with conventional weaponry. The IoM can send an entire army directly on top of the Imperial Palace and out-number and out-gun every force there.”

    They really aren’t. With the exception of EMP weaponry, they aren’t going to harm them without heavy ordinance. And no, they cannot send an entire army, teleportation chambers aren’t big enough. You would be sending them squad by squad, which is terribly inefficient. The only way for a meaningful ground assault would be to deploy from orbit right into the Surface-to-air defense guns. And 1 million troops would not outnumber or outgun. There is an entire legion of Royal guards in the palace, many legions of Stormtroopers on the planet and the entire planetary population to deal with.

    “Disagree, disagree, disagree. If anything, the IoM holds most of the advantages here.”

    Their outnumbered and probably outgunned in space, they have to break through. Planetary shields and a ton of surface to air batteries to actually land on the surface, unless they want to teleport which means sending the army down piecemeal, then while on the planet they have to deal with the entire Imperial Royal Guard, Palpatine, several Storm Trooper Regiments, the Dark Troopers, and the Coruscanti population, which numbered over 1 trillion. And it also takes days for them to actually approach Coruscant during which they will be pounded by Force Storms at Palpatine’s pleasure. Even if the Ark Mechanicus Relic Ship can survive, the other ships won’t be able to. And considering a force storm absorbed the Super Star Destroyer Eclipse, I will bet that over several hours it can destroy the Ark Mechanicus. There’s also Vader, who potentially mess with some ships. So yeah, the IOM is at a loss here.”

  42. GrandMaster May 26, 2015 at 5:58 pm -      #142

    In addition, the Explorator fleet only has 7 vessels including the Ark Mechanicus. So they are not only heavily outnumbered but also outgunned.

  43. Jake_Uzumaki May 26, 2015 at 5:59 pm -      #143

    “specifically NOT getting cored.”

    Well we see a bright explosion, it lingers for a second or two, then cuts away. We don’t know what happened to the Moon after that. And its not like this is the first time in the history of fiction that animators have no idea what would happen if a 4,000+ meter object crashed into a moon/planet at faster than light speeds.

  44. itcheyness May 26, 2015 at 6:14 pm -      #144

    “The planetary shield gets taken down by ELECTRICAL STORMS, they’ll be lost in the first volley from any one of the Imperium’s ships. They mean practically nothing.”

    The Planetary shields were taken down by massive electrical storms that were inside of the shields and destroyed the generators. That has absolutely no bearing on shield strength.

  45. pimpmage May 26, 2015 at 6:42 pm -      #145

    “They really aren’t. With the exception of EMP weaponry, they aren’t going to harm them without heavy ordinance.”

    No. Those droids are not 100% sealed in phrik. They joints and sensors. All of which are vulnerable to nearly everything skittari are capable of fielding.

    “Their outnumbered and probably outgunned in space, they have to break through. ”

    They are out numbered, sure. Out gunned? HA, funny. SW ships do NOT have the firepower to even scratch void shields. Single lances should be quite capable of destroying most any ship SW is fielding.

    “they will be pounded by Force Storms at Palpatine’s pleasure.”

    Which will literally do jack shit to void shields.

    “Even if the Ark Mechanicus Relic Ship can survive, the other ships won’t be able to.”

    Every single ship will survive because SW cannot even scratch the paint on void shields. Funny.

    ” I will bet that over several hours it can destroy the Ark Mechanicus. ”

    Void shields and gellar fields will completely nullify anything to do with force powers.

    The technology, called a Gellar Field Device, allowed Warp-capable starships and their occupants to survive the extremely hostile environment of Warpspace, also known as the Immaterium. The Gellar Field protects the starship and its occupants from the hostility of the psychically-reactive Warp itself as well as from the predation of Warp entities such as daemons.
    Codex: Chaos Daemons (4th Edition), pg. 43

  46. Sauroposeidon May 26, 2015 at 7:00 pm -      #146

    OMG, I leave for one afternoon and this thing explodes. Before I even read anything I just want to mention that at the time of my return, literally ALL of the listed recent posts has been filled with comments on this thread. Hot damn.

  47. Rookie May 26, 2015 at 7:10 pm -      #147

    @Sauroposeidon

    ” Before I even read anything I just want to mention that at the time of my return, literally ALL of the listed recent posts has been filled with comments on this thread. ”

    To be honest I didn’t expect this match to be this good. It is good to be mistaken)))

  48. GrandMaster May 26, 2015 at 7:16 pm -      #148

    “No. Those droids are not 100% sealed in phrik. They joints and sensors. All of which are vulnerable to nearly everything skittari are capable of fielding.”

    So the Skitari will be fighting enemies they can only hurt in very small areas that require precision shots to hit. While at the same time a single shot from A Dark Trooper’s plasma chaingun will core a Skitarii.

    “They are out numbered, sure. Out gunned? HA, funny. SW ships do NOT have the firepower to even scratch void shields. Single lances should be quite capable of destroying most any ship SW is fielding.”

    The SW side has 2 Super Star Destroyers on its side, both capable of putting out exatons of firepower per volley. Void Shields are not going to Stand up to that and have never shown to be able to stand up to anything close to that. The ISDs are fireing volleys on par with those of the IOM (High Megatons low Gigatons) and IOM volleys are definitely capable of piercing void shields. In fact, I would almost argue that SW shielding and weaponry is superior to the IOMs considering that they have sat inside a star with their shields up just fine.

    “Which will literally do jack shit to void shields.”

    Force Storm isn’t a physical attack it’s a wormhole. It doesn’t give a crap about void shields.

    “Every single ship will survive because SW cannot even scratch the paint on void shields. Funny.”

    Yeah I guess we should just ignore that 40K ships have gone down to firepower equal to and in some cases less than SW firepower. You keep saying how superior 40k shields and weaponry is compared to SW but you haven’t shown it.

    “Void shields and gellar fields will completely nullify anything to do with force powers.

    The technology, called a Gellar Field Device, allowed Warp-capable starships and their occupants to survive the extremely hostile environment of Warpspace, also known as the Immaterium. The Gellar Field protects the starship and its occupants from the hostility of the psychically-reactive Warp itself as well as from the predation of Warp entities such as daemons.
    Codex: Chaos Daemons (4th Edition), pg. 43″

    That quote, along with everything I have ever read about gellar fields does not in any way state that gellar fields resist psychic powers. All they do is prevent Daemons from boarding a ship during warp transit.

  49. pimpmage May 26, 2015 at 7:28 pm -      #149

    “So the Skitari will be fighting enemies they can only hurt in very small areas that require precision shots to hit. While at the same time a single shot from A Dark Trooper’s plasma chaingun will core a Skitarii.”

    Like 70% of skitari weapons effect are AOE. Like the most common weapon type they field. Plasma weaponry. Mere proximity will melt around phrik.

    “he ISDs are fireing volleys on par with those of the IOM (High Megatons low Gigatons) and IOM volleys are definitely capable of piercing void shields. ”

    I have absolutely no clue what makes you think 40k ship weapons only measure in the gigatons… really…

    “Force Storm isn’t a physical attack it’s a wormhole. It doesn’t give a crap about void shields.”

    Gellar fields.

    “Yeah I guess we should just ignore that 40K ships have gone down to firepower equal to and in some cases less than SW firepower. You keep saying how superior 40k shields and weaponry is compared to SW but you haven’t shown it.”

    You must be delusional then. Though I really should post more firepower feats.

    “That quote, along with everything I have ever read about gellar fields does not in any way state that gellar fields resist psychic powers. All they do is prevent Daemons from boarding a ship during warp transit.”

    The warp is literally made of psychic power. Think of the warp as the ocean. Demons would be equivalent to millions of pirates constantly hunting you wherever you are. And to complete this metaphor, this ocean is constantly beleaguered by storms quite capable of tearing ships apart. Gellar fields soften the impact of storms tremendously, and outright negate the possibility of pirate attacks.

  50. Sauroposeidon May 26, 2015 at 7:32 pm -      #150

    “A nova cannon shot against a ship directly means that ship resisted a planet shattering hit. = shield strength. Even if you scaled shield capability by tonnage, even frigates would block a death star shot. Yet you somehow think a death star weapon translates to weapons of smaller ships WHY? Smaller ships do not carry the main weapon of a death star.”

    Pimp.. I think we’re done. Mostly because I think you’re high. You just said that you could power scale frigates to eat death star super lasers because of a chaos ship tanking a nova cannon.

    Lay off the weed bro.

    “I seem to recall a ship class being built during the horus heresy that dwarfed even emperor class battleships. ”

    I don’t see what this has to do with anything at all?

    “Except it should be far bigger than 60 km. The quote flat-out states it has the gravity distortion of a moon”

    Phobos. I rest my case.
    “Thanks!
    So GE wins for now. I hoped that it could be more even, but I can live with that.”

    That is just my opinion. Pimp is wanking really hard. Aelfin isn’t wanking, but I do feel he is under selling very hard for the GE to the point that no one should have ever died to the empire ever under any circumstances in any of their showings if we went by his conclusions.

    “Wait, WHAT? Since when? Which of Darth Vader’s fleets had thousands of ships in it?”

    I thought I recall seeing a post postulating that that was how many they were supposed to have in this match. I didn’t recall seeing anyone debunk it. It wasn’t my claim. if I missed a counter argument to that I apologize.

    “The planetary shield gets taken down by ELECTRICAL STORMS, they’ll be lost in the first volley from any one of the Imperium’s ships. They mean practically nothing.”

    Electrical Storms are gonna fuck any shield technology up I expect. As well as any other exposed “techy” stuff. I don’t feel it’s relevant to this match.

    “Also, WHAT? Individual Mechanicus soldiers are enough to handle the Phase 3 Dark Troopers, and the rest can be taken out with conventional weaponry. The IoM can send an entire army directly on top of the Imperial Palace and out-number and out-gun every force there.”

    If they’re REALLY lucky yeah they’ll take down the Phase III’s. But anything else is just going to get steam rolled by them.

    That’s also not really how the IoM wages war. They tend to conduct sweeping ground campaigns. They’d likely attack air bases, power plants, ect, to try and disable the enemy’s ability to provide regional defenses, judging from their actions against the Tau.

    “The technology, called a Gellar Field Device, allowed Warp-capable starships and their occupants to survive the extremely hostile environment of Warpspace,”

    Not going to bother with the rest of your post because, frankly, you’re getting to the point where I imagine your voice sounds like Mandark.. but how does this stop the ships from effectively being BFR’s by the force storm?

    I mean, normally I abstain from all the warp and force stuff cause.. it’s retarded, to be honest.. but just looking at the mechanics of this, I don’t see how the gellar field saves them.

  51. pimpmage May 26, 2015 at 7:37 pm -      #151

    bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?t=105295&highlight=40k

  52. pimpmage May 26, 2015 at 7:46 pm -      #152

    “Pimp.. I think we’re done. Mostly because I think you’re high. You just said that you could power scale frigates to eat death star super lasers because of a chaos ship tanking a nova cannon.”

    Holy fucking shit, do I really have to break it down to explain it to a toddler? All 40k ships have void shields. Strength of void shields are dependant on how much power they are supplied and how many shields they have. That is directly dependant on ship tonnage. You could guestimate void shield durability directly by comparing tonnage. This is not the case with your death star super laser. That weapon requires a moon sized facility to run. Quite unique in regards to other weapons too. You cannot scale a death star’s destructive capability to other laser weaponry that function completely differently; and that already have shown to have specific destructive capability.

    “I don’t see what this has to do with anything at all?”

    Maybe you are not following the debate whatsoever, because thats what it sounds like. We were discussing build times for imperial ships. Lay off the weed bro.

    “If they’re REALLY lucky yeah they’ll take down the Phase III’s. But anything else is just going to get steam rolled by them.”

    Wow, and you tell me that I AM WANKING? Is that so? Do these dark droopers of various types have sensors? Weapons? Joints? Ammunition? All of which are easily vulnerable to ANY weapons?

    “Not going to bother with the rest of your post because, frankly, you’re getting to the point where I imagine your voice sounds like Mandark.. but how does this stop the ships from effectively being BFR’s by the force storm?”

    How am I wrong here? Lets talk about that instead of baselessly ignoring my points. Does that sound good?

    “I mean, normally I abstain from all the warp and force stuff cause.. it’s retarded, to be honest.. but just looking at the mechanics of this, I don’t see how the gellar field saves them.”

    Maybe because you just stated your complete lack of understanding on the subject, so of course you wouldnt see how gellar fields would help.

  53. Sauroposeidon May 26, 2015 at 7:50 pm -      #153

    Uh-oh. The butthurt is strong with this one.

  54. pimpmage May 26, 2015 at 7:55 pm -      #154

    “Uh-oh. The butthurt is strong with this one.”

    Oh no, someone dares argue against my dear star wars. He must be butthurt that I treat him in a condescending manner.

  55. Darth Bombad May 26, 2015 at 8:13 pm -      #155

    Base Delta Zero.
    img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120425033216/starwars/images/8/8f/WrathBDZ-EGTW.jpg

    img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20060131021718/starwars/images/c/c1/BaseDeltaZero.jpg

    A far older and weaker ship devastates Taris, a planet who’s every continent
    is covered by cityscape many miles high, reduced to “no taller than two stories”.

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=FpN4wl74CuE

    That fleet was just 12 ships, 11 of which have alot less firepower than the flagship.
    An ISD massively outclasses the Leviathan in every way especially firepower,
    Levi only had 4 Turbolaser batteries an ISD has over 100 more modern heavy guns.

  56. Sauroposeidon May 26, 2015 at 8:17 pm -      #156

    “Oh no, someone dares argue against my dear star wars. He must be butthurt that I treat him in a condescending manner.”

    Your assumption that I am arguing from the point that I hold Star Wars dear is as false as your wanking. We’re not all emotionally attached to this match like you are, Pimp.

  57. Friendlysociopath May 26, 2015 at 8:22 pm -      #157

    So two points, I’m weak in both Star Wars and 40K so bear with me:
    1) In order to withstand the Force Storm, they need to keep up this…Gellar Field? Which according to Pimp will completely negate the Force Storm.
    This Gellar Field requires massive amounts of power yes? The same power that is needed to do everything else like shooting, shielding, and flying?
    If so, can they keep both the Void Shields and Gellar Field up at the same time for an extended period? Star Wars has two ways to attack the ships, both of which require the same resource of the 40K ships- power.

    2) Entirely unrelated to the current topic- if Man A can use a dagger to pierce 6 inches straight into a rock, and Man B replicates this feat with a closed fist instead of a dagger; is Man A stronger than Man B? Are they the same strength? Or is Man B stronger than Man A? Assume there is nothing magical about the dagger except it simply doesn’t break.

  58. pimpmage May 26, 2015 at 8:23 pm -      #158

    “Your assumption that I am arguing from the point that I hold Star Wars dear is as false as your wanking. We’re not all emotionally attached to this match like you are, Pimp.”

    That must not be the case seeing as you feel the insistent need to insult me every chance you get. Maybe because you feel I wronged you somehow? Because I am debating against SW? Do you dislike that so?

    “2) Entirely unrelated to the current topic- if Man A can use a sword to pierce 6 inches straight into a rock, and Man B replicates this feat with a closed fist instead of a sword; is Man A stronger than Man B? Are they the same strength? Or is Man B stronger than Man A? Assume there is nothing magical about the sword except it simply doesn’t break.”

    I would say man B is stronger because he is able to force a softer material into a harder material. Though that might be different if this person’s hand was as tough or tougher than steel.

  59. Sauroposeidon May 26, 2015 at 8:41 pm -      #159

    “That must not be the case seeing as you feel the insistent need to insult me every chance you get”

    No I don’t. I’m sure you’ve seen me when I’m being an insufferable bag of dicks. That’s not how I’ve been to you here. Calm your tits, dude.

    “? Or is Man B stronger than Man A? ”

    Man B is stronger. All the energy is being applied to the tip of the dagger than across the other man’s fist. So it takes less energy to achieve the same feat as man A than it does for man B.

  60. Ordo11 May 26, 2015 at 8:54 pm -      #160

    pimpmage, first off this electric storm does absolutely nothing to the shield, it shorted out 1 of the generators, then they had to have a man fly thought that storm and then blow up the secondary power generator.

    Pimpmage, next blaster also have multiple showings of blowing off limbs and various other nasty feats. Also in every case I have seen a dark trooper phase 3 they have either been purely droids, or suits based off those droids.

  61. pimpmage May 26, 2015 at 8:58 pm -      #161

    “pimpmage, first off this electric storm does absolutely nothing to the shield, it shorted out 1 of the generators, then they had to have a man fly thought that storm and then blow up the secondary power generator.”

    I wasn’t the one debating that.

    “pimpmage, first off this electric storm does absolutely nothing to the shield, it shorted out 1 of the generators, then they had to have a man fly thought that storm and then blow up the secondary power generator.”

    “Pimpmage, next blaster also have multiple showings of blowing off limbs and various other nasty feats. Also in every case I have seen a dark trooper phase 3 they have either been purely droids, or suits based off those droids.”

    Since when has blasters ever blown off limbs? Being droid or human does not matter. They die either way.

  62. Ordo11 May 26, 2015 at 9:02 pm -      #162

    I’ll get the book quote for a blaster rifle blasting off someone’s stomach. I’ll see if I can get any good numbers on what is at coruscant.

  63. GrandMaster May 26, 2015 at 9:11 pm -      #163

    “Like 70% of skitari weapons effect are AOE. Like the most common weapon type they field. Plasma weaponry. Mere proximity will melt around phrik.”

    Just because it’s area of effect does not mean it’s going to get through the joints. AOE weapons impact equally across the surface area and do not in anyway target joints.

    “I have absolutely no clue what makes you think 40k ship weapons only measure in the gigatons… really…”

    Because besides 1 high end calculation they’ve never shown anything greater?

    “Gellar fields.”

    Haven’t been shown to block psychic attacks only block daemons. The burden of proof is on you to show us a specific example of gellar fields blocking psychic powers.

    “You must be delusional then. Though I really should post more firepower feats.”

    SW has plenty of feats matching any level of 40k feats high end and low end. I just don’t like to post them because when I do he anti Star Wars bandwagon immediately jumps down my throat.

  64. Aelfinn May 26, 2015 at 9:54 pm -      #164

    “The SW side has 2 Super Star Destroyers on its side, both capable of putting out exatons of firepower per volley.”

    Yeah, no. You have literally no proof.
    =
    “The shield got taken down by Vong Ships, which suicide bombed the shield. And when you consider that most Vong Ships tend to be very big (5km+), and the meteor that ended the dinosaurs was around 5 miles wide, it’s kind of impressive really.”

    Not really, unless these 3-mile ships are denser than asteroids and going 40,000 mph.
    =
    “They could ravage the surface of planets and according to Luke “kill a planet””

    That tells me literally nothing. Checking out the wiki, apparently the Imperial Palace was “damaged” by it, which doesn’t tell me impressive things.
    =
    “The explosions from the turbolasers can be seen from orbit.”

    Once again, that doesn’t inherently mean much.
    =
    “I think he’s talking about the entire Coruscanti Defense Fleet”

    You mean the literally seven ships?
    starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Coruscant_Defense_Fleet
    Doesn’t quite seem like thousands.
    =
    “They really aren’t. With the exception of EMP weaponry, they aren’t going to harm them without heavy ordinance.”

    Alright, it’s not going to take “heavy ordinance”. Any Titan or tank is enough to take them out. In literally the only canon appearance of Phase 3 Dark troopers, they were taken out with hand-held weapons, and I’m assuming that because it was in a video game, any of the hand-held guns could have done it. Of course, it’s fastest with a rocket-launcher, but it’s not like artillery is required.
    =
    “The only way for a meaningful ground assault would be to deploy from orbit right into the Surface-to-air defense guns. And 1 million troops would not outnumber or outgun. There is an entire legion of Royal guards in the palace, many legions of Stormtroopers on the planet and the entire planetary population to deal with.”

    Considering aerial superiority will be established within, like, 3 hours, they can selectively destroy any anti-air gun with extreme prejudice. Hell, they can turn a city-sized area of Coruscant into a parking lot, and march 3 miles to the palace. The populace isn’t going to do anything, they never do anything any time Coruscant gets attacked or taken over.
    =
    “Force Storm isn’t a physical attack it’s a wormhole. It doesn’t give a crap about void shields.”

    Only the eye of the Storm is a wormhole, ala Luke, R2-D2, and the other guy with the staff. Most of it is an attack. A release of energy. It’s something that Void Shields can protect against.
    =
    “he ISDs are fireing volleys on par with those of the IOM (High Megatons low Gigatons) and IOM volleys are definitely capable of piercing void shields.”

    A single TORPEDO, not even Nova Cannon, will punch right through an ISD. To quote myself:
    “So, I’m going to re-calc, using the shape of a cylinder (which would honestly be an over-estimation), the mid-range density of steel, and the new relationship.

    I got a mass of 14083366.38 kilograms.
    At 20,000 km/s, they have a kinetic energy of 673.2 Gigatons.”

    And to quote Neon Lord:
    “Upon impact, the forward momentum drives the torpedo’s body deep into the vessel’s structure before the warhead and plasma reactor both detonate, inflicting damage far greater
    pg. 6 RT: Battlefleet Koronus.”

    600 Gigatons is WAY out of an ISD’s weight class, and the fact that the Torpedo will blow up with a greater force likely indicates that a single torpedo could take out an SSD.
    =

    =
    =
    =
    “The Planetary shields were taken down by massive electrical storms that were inside of the shields and destroyed the generators. That has absolutely no bearing on shield strength.”

    It was an example. My other quotes show that it’s quite possible to punch through the shields without using planet-busting levels of firepower.
    =
    =
    =
    “Phobos. I rest my case.”

    Oh, come on, we’ve both taken shits bigger than Phobos. There are asteroids bigger than it.
    =
    =
    =
    “A far older and weaker ship devastates Taris”

    The only thing that makes sense in that scene is that he slowly destroyed the planet. We can see with our very EYES that each turbolaser blast isn’t causing a thermonuclear blast.

  65. Neon Lord May 27, 2015 at 2:52 am -      #165

    “There’s also plenty of examples of b1 battle droids being blown apart, several examples of B2 (who had tougher than human exteriors) being cored by a blaster, and we have Grievous’ entire torso igniting from 1 shot. Now please go ahead and show me all the low end Blasters people use as the gospel for SW firepower, you’ll find that their aren’t that many.”

    Neither of the videos you posted show ‘fist-sized holes’ as you claim. B1 droids blowing apart happens rarely, and is more likely to occur due to a separate internal explosion caused by damage, whilst Grievous’s synth sacs were flammable so any spark would’ve set it alight.

    I already posted an example of many low-ends in the first episode of the Clone Wars series in the other thread.

    “Oh, I thought the est was a corrupted battle barge. That’s neat, I gotta read up I on that.This match is the first I’ve read that relic ships exist like the black hole shooting one and the est.”

    The Terminus Est was a Despoiler-class Battleship, and there were at least three others of the same class that were built.

    “They really aren’t. With the exception of EMP weaponry”

    If you read my last post on the last page, the basic weapon of a Skitarri Vanguard does have an EMP effect.

    “Electrical Storms are gonna fuck any shield technology up I expect. ”

    That would be some crap shield tech.

    “That’s also not really how the IoM wages war. They tend to conduct sweeping ground campaigns. They’d likely attack air bases, power plants, ect, to try and disable the enemy’s ability to provide regional defenses, judging from their actions against the Tau.”

    That’s because they were trying to capture the planet intact. And when the objective here is to take a single location, an orbital landing close the the planet and the deployment of all forces to take it is the logical thing to do.

    ” The same power that is needed to do everything else like shooting, shielding, and flying?”

    Shielding and flying systems are still up; shields probably aren’t receiving full power however.

    “2) Entirely unrelated to the current topic- if Man A can use a dagger to pierce 6 inches straight into a rock, and Man B replicates this feat with a closed fist instead of a dagger; is Man A stronger than Man B? Are they the same strength? Or is Man B stronger than Man A? Assume there is nothing magical about the dagger except it simply doesn’t break.”

    It means the Man B is not only stronger, but his fist is harder than the rock. But this feat doesn’t really make sense since rock’s aren’t elastic. If you penetrate a rock with something fist-sized, the rock would shatter, not deform.

  66. Sauroposeidon May 27, 2015 at 8:47 am -      #166

    “That would be some crap shield tech.”

    It’s because of the way electronics work. The shields or the shield projectors themselves are going to have issues.

    “That’s because they were trying to capture the planet intact. And when the objective here is to take a single location, an orbital landing close the the planet and the deployment of all forces to take it is the logical thing to do.”

    Please don’t ever actually be in charge of our troops. “Throw them at the meat grinder” is a terrible tactic.

    Just as a side note, folks. Disruptors are also blasters, and they completely atomize the target. Blasters CAN be stronger than Lasguns.. but the E-11 is not. The E-11 will kill you if it hits you. The E-11 is rated at being stronger than most ballistic weapons that a person can carry, such as assault rifles, just looking at the comparison of its numbers compared to slug throwers in any source where you get hard numbers on them. Arguing for extreme high end or extreme low end only is retarded, and your going in a circle looks like a dog that doesn’t realize it’s trying to bite it’s own tail. Just give it up and go for the intended standard of the weapon.

  67. Ordo11 May 27, 2015 at 9:05 am -      #167

    Sauroposeidon, no the electric storm didn’t mess with the shield. The storm shorted out one of the power generators.

    Neon, I think you are looking at the clone wars home defense fleet when they sent just about everything they had to the mid to outer rim.

    Neon, again if you are using a kids child show to say that blasters can’t do anything, in which said show they blast apart large rock formations? That is not a good idea. Stick with things lick a pistol shot will melt off your face and a rifle shot or heavier will blow most if not all of your thigh away.

  68. Sauroposeidon May 27, 2015 at 9:31 am -      #168

    “Sauroposeidon, no the electric storm didn’t mess with the shield. The storm shorted out one of the power generators.”

    My point being that anywhere that the electricity can get in to the system and burn out the circuits, it will. It doesn’t have to defeat the shields through force. I assumed it fried something in the projector, or caused some kind of energy feed back by interacting with the shields themselves.

  69. Ordo11 May 27, 2015 at 9:57 am -      #169

    Sauroposeidon, I think he taught that the electrical storm hitting the shield is what was taking down the shield.

    Everyone, here is how the shield thing worked, first they instituted an electrical storm to short the power generators, then they found out about the secondary one and had to have a pilot kill it.

    Also yes coruscant did have a shield during the clone wars, first off it was not activated early enough to stop early droid units, and then they opened it up again for evacuation of civilians, and to get the droids out from underneath.

    Also I doubt 1 single vong ship hitting that shield took down both shields. From what I have heard and seen, it had multiple cap ships from clone wars hit that sucker and they put barely a dent in the first shield.

  70. Ordo11 May 27, 2015 at 11:29 am -      #170

    Oh ere are some quotes on the dark troopers.

    “There were three stages of Dark Troopers, as well as a scattering of prototypes. Phase I Dark Troopers were metal skeletons armed with a cutting blade and shield cast from lightsaber-resistant phrik. Phase II Dark Troopers—the project’s basic combat units—were clad in phrik body shells, armed with assault cannons, and equipped with repulsorlift engines, making them devastating opponents in aerial assaults. The Phase III Dark Trooper was clad in thick armor, sported a cluster of missile tubes, and could operate independently or be used as an exosuit by a single operator.”

    Excerpt From: Jason Fry & Paul R. Urquhart. “The Essential Guide to Warfare.” Random House Publishing Group, 2012.

  71. Ordo11 May 27, 2015 at 11:45 am -      #171

    More quotes

    The Executor boasted more than five thousand turbolasers and ion cannons, and carried two full wings of TIE fighters and as many as two hundred small armed star-ships such as gunboats and attack shuttles. A full stormtrooper corps served on board, along with thirty-eight thousand other ground troops, ready to deploy with twenty-four AT-ATs, fifty AT-STs, and three prefabricated garrisons.

    “The Alliance began a hasty evacuation of Hoth, but Death Squadron arrived before it was complete, its already formidable numbers strengthened by a quartet of Star Destroyers borrowed from Juris Sector Forces. The Rebellion was dealt a terrible blow: Of thirty transports fleeing Echo Base, seventeen were destroyed or captured. Death Squadron’s Star Destroyers then pursued the Millennium Falcon into the Hoth system’s tumbling asteroids. Han Solo eluded capture, attaching his ship to the Avenger—but the bounty hunter Boba Fett figured out what Solo had done, and calculated that the crippled Falcon was headed for Bespin. When the freighter arrived, the Executor and Death Squadron were hiding in the system—and Darth Vader awaited the Falcon’s passengers on Cloud City”

    Excerpt From: Jason Fry & Paul R. Urquhart. “The Essential Guide to Warfare.” Random House Publishing Group, 2012.


    “The squadron formally consisted of the Executor and five Star Destroyers—the Avenger, Conquest, Devastator, Stalker, and Tyrant—but Vader had the authority to attach other warships if he deemed it necessary.
    Death Squadron soon became the terror of the Outer Rim. It assembled at Centares, then traveled along the Triellus Trade Route, joined by warships contributed by regional governors as it went. In every sector, Death Squadron left ruin behind it: Smugglers’ hideouts were erased by orbital bombardments, pirates’ bolt-holes torn apart by TIE squadrons, and shadowports destroyed by Imperial ground assaults. Those fleeing ahead of the campaign were snapped up by Interdictor cruisers and interrogated.”

    Excerpt From: Jason Fry & Paul R. Urquhart. “The Essential Guide to Warfare.” Random House Publishing Group, 2012.

    Oh and we might be able to throw thrawn into this fight, just saying.

  72. Ordo11 May 27, 2015 at 12:16 pm -      #172

    Here is a battle cruiser fracturing a planets core after crashing into the planet after hyperdrive breaks, and then irradiates the planet and cracks her core.

    The Quaestor, a Republic Praetor-class battlecruiser, led a raid against the Separatist shipbuilding facilities at Pammant, where her hyperdrive was damaged by torpedo droids. The Quaestor’s hyperdrive engaged, rocketing the great ship into the planet. The impact scattered radioactive particles through Pammant’s atmosphere and frac-tured its core.

    Guide to warfare.

  73. GrandMaster May 27, 2015 at 2:23 pm -      #173

    “Not really, unless these 3-mile ships are denser than asteroids and going 40,000 mph.”

    They crashed hundreds of them into the surface while also bombing them with their fleet for most of the battle, which took several days. That’s easily Petatons of firepower absorbed by the shield if not Exatons.

    “Once again, that doesn’t inherently mean much.”

    It gives a ball park estimation of firepower.

    “Alright, it’s not going to take “heavy ordinance”. Any Titan or tank is enough to take them out. In literally the only canon appearance of Phase 3 Dark troopers, they were taken out with hand-held weapons, and I’m assuming that because it was in a video game, any of the hand-held guns could have done it. Of course, it’s fastest with a rocket-launcher, but it’s not like artillery is required.”

    Phrik is totally lightsaber proof. It doesn’t mess with the actual saber, it just straight up tanks it.

    “Considering aerial superiority will be established within, like, 3 hours, they can selectively destroy any anti-air gun with extreme prejudice. Hell, they can turn a city-sized area of Coruscant into a parking lot, and march 3 miles to the palace. The populace isn’t going to do anything, they never do anything any time Coruscant gets attacked or taken over.”

    3 hours? The Explorator Fleet has 7 ships in it. It takes days for imperial ships to move across a system and they will be harassed all the way. The only ship that’s dangerous is the Speranza. Once it’s gone, the other ships will not be able to stand up against Death Squadron and the 2 Super Star Destroyers. And why wouldn’t the population do anything?

    “Only the eye of the Storm is a wormhole, ala Luke, R2-D2, and the other guy with the staff. Most of it is an attack. A release of energy. It’s something that Void Shields can protect against.”

    No it’s pretty clearly a wormhole Attack. It is described as sucking the fleet in, not destroying it.

    “A single TORPEDO, not even Nova Cannon, will punch right through an ISD. To quote myself:
    “So, I’m going to re-calc, using the shape of a cylinder (which would honestly be an over-estimation), the mid-range density of steel, and the new relationship.

    I got a mass of 14083366.38 kilograms.
    At 20,000 km/s, they have a kinetic energy of 673.2 Gigatons.””

    This is actually an example of where 40K’s larger ship size and slower speed works against itself. Torpedoes are generally strong enough to 1 shot an IOM ship and are fast enough and small enough in comparison to not be targetable. But, they are vulnerable to point defense lasers and IOM fighters. So what exactly is stopping some Tie Bombers from blowing up the torpedo early? IOM fighters can do it, and they are much slower than TIE ships.

    “It was an example. My other quotes show that it’s quite possible to punch through the shields without using planet-busting levels of firepower.”

    The shield was taken down from the inside by messing with the generator. That has nothing to do with the shields actual durability.

    “Neither of the videos you posted show ‘fist-sized holes’ as you claim. B1 droids blowing apart happens rarely, and is more likely to occur due to a separate internal explosion caused by damage, whilst Grievous’s synth sacs were flammable so any spark would’ve set it alight.”

    Did you see the hole in Ki-Adi-Mundi’s chest?

    “The Terminus Est was a Despoiler-class Battleship, and there were at least three others of the same class that were built.”

    No. The Despoiler Class was based on the Terminus Est. The Terminus Est was a pre-heresy ship.

    “That’s because they were trying to capture the planet intact. And when the objective here is to take a single location, an orbital landing close the the planet and the deployment of all forces to take it is the logical thing to do.”

    Besides the 1 million Cadian Shock Troopers what other military forces were in the fleet?

  74. GrandMaster May 27, 2015 at 2:25 pm -      #174

    “The Quaestor, a Republic Praetor-class battlecruiser, led a raid against the Separatist shipbuilding facilities at Pammant, where her hyperdrive was damaged by torpedo droids. The Quaestor’s hyperdrive engaged, rocketing the great ship into the planet. The impact scattered radioactive particles through Pammant’s atmosphere and frac-tured its core.”

    That was 1 ship going full hyperdrive hitting a planet, The Executor’s shields withstood 3 ISDs crashing into it at hyper speed.

  75. Rookie May 27, 2015 at 2:59 pm -      #175

    @GrandMaster

    ” And why wouldn’t the population do anything?”

    When did they do anything?

  76. Aelfinn May 27, 2015 at 4:03 pm -      #176

    “They crashed hundreds of them into the surface while also bombing them with their fleet for most of the battle, which took several days. That’s easily Petatons of firepower absorbed by the shield if not Exatons.”

    No. Not true. Star Wars ships don’t put out that level of firepower. Their weapons are single-digit gigatons if they’re lucky, and their are plenty of quotes and cases of them doing things like…burning trees and knocking down buildings.
    =
    “Phrik is totally lightsaber proof. It doesn’t mess with the actual saber, it just straight up tanks it.”

    Great, it has high heat resistance. That doesn’t mean much when we SEE it get taken out with hand-held weapons.
    =
    “It takes days for imperial ships to move across a system and they will be harassed all the way. The only ship that’s dangerous is the Speranza. Once it’s gone, the other ships will not be able to stand up against Death Squadron and the 2 Super Star Destroyers.”

    Since when are the ships starting outside the system? Vader has like, 30 ships, max, and a single torpedo or broadside will absolutely wreck a star destroyer, Super or otherwise. The SSD’s might actually last a little longer, but considering we SEE their shield generators taken out by a few fighters, it won’t be long at all.
    =
    “And why wouldn’t the population do anything?”

    Uhh, because civilians don’t often fight in wars? And because if they do, they’re probably going to get their hometown nuked?
    =
    “That was 1 ship going full hyperdrive hitting a planet, The Executor’s shields withstood 3 ISDs crashing into it at hyper speed.”

    Alright, here’s something I’ll tell you: that doesn’t anything. Not only do “hyperspace impacts” vary wildly within Star Wars canon, but even in the Star Wars universe, it’s impossible for the ships to be moving FTL. That’s how the Star Wars universe works: you go FTL by going to hyperspace. So if you’re IN real-space, AKA, where the impacts happen, then you’re not going lightspeed.

  77. Ordo11 May 27, 2015 at 4:11 pm -      #177

    Yet we have feats showing they crack planets.

    Also high heat resistance doesn’t do much against lightsabers. Jango’s blaster was cut through and that is heat proof. Next.

    You never did address the fact that those torpedoes will probably all be shot down.


    I’ll give you the civilians though. They do jack shit.

    Also that ground stuff the death squadron has should be down so even more stuff for you guys to deal with.

    Also never responded to wormhole either…

  78. Friendlysociopath May 27, 2015 at 4:15 pm -      #178

    Would EU Vader be able to impact the battle somehow? He’s got feats now of choking people out of atmosphere from the surface of a planet.

    @Anyone who answered my question, would Man B’s hand being harder than stone still make him stronger than Man A? And if Man B shattered the stone completely instead of piercing it, he’d be much stronger than Man A?

  79. pimpmage May 27, 2015 at 4:41 pm -      #179

    “Would EU Vader be able to impact the battle somehow? He’s got feats now of choking people out of atmosphere from the surface of a planet.”

    This is a mechanicus fleet. Anyone that remotely MATTERS doesn’t have real lungs or windpipes.

  80. Sauroposeidon May 27, 2015 at 5:04 pm -      #180

    “Great, it has high heat resistance. That doesn’t mean much when we SEE it get taken out with hand-held weapons.”

    The only times we ever see conventional weapons harm it is in video games which use HP systems as opposed to say.. penetration systems, like War Thunder.. This can be attributed to the same game mechanics that allow small arms fire destroy tanks over time.

    The few times we see them outside of this situation, they’re walking fortresses. Non-mechanics feats for phrik are pretty good. Including light saber resistance and surviving Alderaan.

    The Assault Cannon is small enough to be used by a human. The size of the weapon is somewhat useless to base anything on. The LS-150 is heavier than the Assault Cannon to the point of being impractical for use by humans (although it’s fine for Trandoshans), but lacks penetration capabilities (although it too uses plasma), instead relying on volume of fire to deal damage to soft targets. The Disruptor is smaller than both the Assault Cannon and the LS-150 and might have more fire power than either.

    The Assault Cannon was also considered revolutionary at its time. It allowed the Dark Trooper Phase II models to steam roll a rebel base and break through their shields very quickly. The weapon is supposedly very powerful.

  81. GrandMaster May 27, 2015 at 5:14 pm -      #181

    “Great, it has high heat resistance. That doesn’t mean much when we SEE it get taken out with hand-held weapons.”

    It got taken out by Dark Trooper Weapons.

    “Since when are the ships starting outside the system? Vader has like, 30 ships, max, and a single torpedo or broadside will absolutely wreck a star destroyer, Super or otherwise. The SSD’s might actually last a little longer, but considering we SEE their shield generators taken out by a few fighters, it won’t be long at all.”

    25 ISDs, 2 Super Star Destroyers, 7 Victory Class Star Destroyers+ all of Coruscant’s defense lasers. And a single torpedo will get shot down or evaded or even tanked. Id argue an ISD’s shields could tank atleast 1 torpedo. And an SSD would not be taken down by a single torpedo. The Executor’s shields took 3 planetary core fracturing blows and managed to leave the ship unharmed.

    “Alright, here’s something I’ll tell you: that doesn’t anything. Not only do “hyperspace impacts” vary wildly within Star Wars canon, but even in the Star Wars universe, it’s impossible for the ships to be moving FTL. That’s how the Star Wars universe works: you go FTL by going to hyperspace. So if you’re IN real-space, AKA, where the impacts happen, then you’re not going lightspeed.”

    Star ships don’t get transported to Hyperspace when going FTL. They are still in the material universe. Otherwise why would space lanes be necessary? Why would Han have to calculate the coordinates for his ship to avoid hitting stars?

  82. GrandMaster May 27, 2015 at 5:16 pm -      #182

    “Would EU Vader be able to impact the battle somehow? He’s got feats now of choking people out of atmosphere from the surface of a planet.”

    He could bring down the smaller IOM ships or stop and redirect torpedoes, but besides that he isn’t doing a ton.

  83. pimpmage May 27, 2015 at 5:35 pm -      #183

    “surviving Alderaan.”

    You know what also survived alderaan? Rocks. Tons of rocks and dirt. Does that mean alderaan rocks are also as tough as phrik? Or that surviving alderaan is NOT a durability feat for phrik.

    “He could bring down the smaller IOM ships or stop and redirect torpedoes, but besides that he isn’t doing a ton.”

    You mean smaller IOM ships piloted by people that are roughtly 99% robot? You are saying darth vader can choke people who literally cannot be choked? And about that torpedoes bit.. Since when has vader ever messed with space battles while planetside? Going from force choking cyborgs to messing with building sized missiles in space?

  84. GrandMaster May 27, 2015 at 6:05 pm -      #184

    “You mean smaller IOM ships piloted by people that are roughtly 99% robot? You are saying darth vader can choke people who literally cannot be choked? And about that torpedoes bit.. Since when has vader ever messed with space battles while planetside? Going from force choking cyborgs to messing with building sized missiles in space?”

    No I meant actually pull the ship out of the sky. He’s done it before. And why would he be on Coruscant? His place in Death Squadren is aboard the Executor.

  85. Aelfinn May 27, 2015 at 6:25 pm -      #185

    “Yet we have feats showing they crack planets.”

    And feats of them not doing it. Unless you’re seriously suggesting that an SSD has almost-planet-busting durability, which is absurd.
    =
    “Also high heat resistance doesn’t do much against lightsabers. Jango’s blaster was cut through and that is heat proof. Next.”

    What? Not “Next”. Just because something has “heat resistance” doesn’t mean something can’t have higher heat resistance.
    =
    “You never did address the fact that those torpedoes will probably all be shot down.”

    Turbolaser turrets have a tough time following X-wings, torpedoes going exponentially faster than X-wings are unlikely to get shot down.
    =
    “No it’s pretty clearly a wormhole Attack. It is described as sucking the fleet in, not destroying it.”

    Oh, so it didn’t destroy the fleet? Where’d the fleet end up? Course, it’s a wiki, but care to explain this: “indiscriminately destroying any New Republic and Imperial vessels in its path.[2]”
    starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Force_storm_%28wormhole%29
    Just because it’s called a “wormhole” doesn’t mean that’s its normal effects.
    =
    =
    =
    “The only times we ever see conventional weapons harm it is in video games which use HP systems”

    That’s the only canon time we actually see it though! The only other time the Phase 3 shows up is in alt universes, which aren’t canon.
    =
    “The Assault Cannon is small enough to be used by a human. The size of the weapon is somewhat useless to base anything on.”

    It tells us a few things: the recoil can be handled by a human, and the weapon doesn’t have a yield dangerous to humans at medium ranges. That puts a limit on how strong the weapon can be, and 40K hits that limit more often than Star Wars.
    =
    =
    =
    “It got taken out by Dark Trooper Weapons.”

    Actually it was taken out by whatever the player character decided to use.
    =
    “25 ISDs, 2 Super Star Destroyers, 7 Victory Class Star Destroyers+ all of Coruscant’s defense lasers.”

    34 shots or broadsides. Really shouldn’t take too long.
    =
    “ISD’s shields could tank atleast 1 torpedo”

    Show me them tanking a single Teraton.
    =
    “And an SSD would not be taken down by a single torpedo. The Executor’s shields took 3 planetary core fracturing blows and managed to leave the ship unharmed.”

    …We’ve been over how those weren’t core-fracturing blows. We can go over how Super Star Destroyers were lost in the past:
    www.youtube.com/watch?v=RW_hGOFukMQ
    www.youtube.com/watch?v=be5_g9S0vMc

    My god! That Corellian Corvette must have been moving at at least the highway speed limit.
    =
    “Star ships don’t get transported to Hyperspace when going FTL. They are still in the material universe. Otherwise why would space lanes be necessary? Why would Han have to calculate the coordinates for his ship to avoid hitting stars?”

    Wurt. Literally any source will tell you they go to Hyperspace. You have to chart out space lanes and figure out coordinates because you can still run into the gravity shadow created by large objects. Those are still dangerous, even when in Hyperspace.
    =
    =
    =
    By the way, I found out the actual density of the universe as described in that one scene. It’s not going to be pretty if I calc it, and it would put pretty much any of the IoM ships so far out of the Empire’s destructive capacity that there’d be almost no way to bring it down.

  86. Friendlysociopath May 27, 2015 at 6:34 pm -      #186

    You know what also survived alderaan? Rocks. Tons of rocks and dirt. Does that mean alderaan rocks are also as tough as phrik?

    Nooo? If a man is blown into chunks but his steel leg (go with it) survived without a scratch, then the leg tanked the explosion but his flesh didn’t.
    Doesn’t change the fact that the leg took a significant portion of the same blast that the skin took, it just took it better.

  87. Aelfinn May 27, 2015 at 6:49 pm -      #187

    “Nooo? If a man is blown into chunks but his steel leg (go with it) survived without a scratch, then the leg tanked the explosion but his flesh didn’t.”

    But can you then say that each chunk of flesh then “survived” the explosion? If someone drops a bomb on me, and all anyone finds is my hand, does that mean my hand has bomb-level durability? Of course not. It’s all about how much of the energy any particular amount happened to receive.
    =
    Also, to respond to your “stabbing stone with knife vs. hand”, both are superhuman, but doing it with a hand would be more impressive. Of course, both are likely impossible as the stone would break, but yeah.

  88. pimpmage May 27, 2015 at 6:56 pm -      #188

    That’s the thing friendly, you would be correct if every square inch of the planet was hit with equal energy. Which I doubt would be the case.

    @aelf
    How the heck would you calc the density of the universe from that one quote??

  89. Friendlysociopath May 27, 2015 at 7:10 pm -      #189

    Also, to respond to your “stabbing stone with knife vs. hand”, both are superhuman, but doing it with a hand would be more impressive.

    Eh, the stone did break, Man B is Tien from DBZ when he got pissed at Nappa. The 6 inches thing might be off but the idea was the same.


    That’s the thing friendly, you would be correct if every square inch of the planet was hit with equal energy.


    While true, the energy wouldn’t be the same everywhere on the planet- even a small portion of that would be comparatively massive would it not?

  90. Sauroposeidon May 27, 2015 at 7:20 pm -      #190

    “That’s the only canon time we actually see it though! The only other time the Phase 3 shows up is in alt universes, which aren’t canon.”

    Why does this matter?

    “It tells us a few things: the recoil can be handled by a human, and the weapon doesn’t have a yield dangerous to humans at medium ranges. That puts a limit on how strong the weapon can be, and 40K hits that limit more often than Star Wars.”

    These don’t really speak much about the power of the weapon itself. There’s less kick to a Carl Gustav recoiless gun firing tank rounds than there is to a AK-47, firing anti-personnel rounds.

    “Actually it was taken out by whatever the player character decided to use.”

    Which are supposed to be the Assault Cannons. There’s no reason to use anything else because they do so much more damage than anything else. The raw power of the weapons are a plot point.

  91. pimpmage May 27, 2015 at 7:37 pm -      #191

    Is there anyone on this site with knowledge of the Dune universe? I keep thinking we should pit Dune against… maybe something like Command & Conquer. Anyone play that dune game from like a decade ago?

  92. Aelfinn May 27, 2015 at 8:03 pm -      #192

    “How the heck would you calc the density of the universe from that one quote??”

    I happen to have a book that tells me how dense the universe was in the first couple of seconds/minutes after the Big Bang. I can figure out a timeframe based on the quote that matches up to the time after the Big Bang. It pretty much goes Infinite-> 10 billion billion billion billion billion times denser than water -> 100 times denser than water – > 4 times denser than water, etc. I then estimate a volume of material that dense traveling at 99% the speed of light, and this would give me the energy involved.
    =
    =
    =
    @Friendlysociopath
    Yeah, Tien should be way stronger than someone who penetrates it with a knife.
    =
    “While true, the energy wouldn’t be the same everywhere on the planet- even a small portion of that would be comparatively massive would it not?”

    I’ve tried a few calcs on this, and they’ve ranged anywhere from grams of TNT to megatons of it. Probably the most accurate calc is calc-ing the energy of the object moving at escape velocity, because that is, by definition, what is required to blow up a planet: you make all the little pieces move at escape velocity.

    Assuming the Phrik box was 5 kg means it survived 317 Megajoules.
    =
    =
    =
    “Why does this matter?”

    Because we have to know that that one person was fully capable of defeating a Phase 3 Dark Trooper on his own, and feats from alt universes aren’t nearly as relevant.
    =
    “Which are supposed to be the Assault Cannons. There’s no reason to use anything else because they do so much more damage than anything else. The raw power of the weapons are a plot point.”

    Alright, so let’s run with Assault Cannons. What can they do? Wookiepedia tells me they could “punch through body armor and kill a soldier in a single shot”, and you mentioned how important they were in the destruction of a few bases, but that doesn’t sound particularly destructive compared to even, say, a thermal detonator.

  93. Aelfinn May 27, 2015 at 8:16 pm -      #193

    “Is there anyone on this site with knowledge of the Dune universe?”

    There’s not a whole lot to know, and I read all 6 books. There are the Honored Matres, who are… peak humans who force people into worshiping them through the power of sex. There are the Bene Gesserit, who…do…things, and have most of the same powers as the Matres. There are atomic weapons that can blow up planets, and their FTL is instant. However, the Empire could be anywhere from 10 planets to 10 billion, it’s never explained, and they have virtually no scouting ability. Not to mention that there are literally zero space battles. There is, however, some wonky-ass tech they have on the ground.

  94. pimpmage May 27, 2015 at 8:36 pm -      #194

    “There’s not a whole lot to know, and I read all 6 books. ”

    From the game Dune 2000, I always thought the Sardaukar were pretty cool units. They even looked pretty sick too. Though I don’t know enough about their lore to rate their combat capability.
    d2kplus.com/HistoricImages/Renders/Sardaukar.jpg

  95. Aelfinn May 27, 2015 at 8:51 pm -      #195

    “Though I don’t know enough about their lore to rate their combat capability.”

    They’re…really good…? They’re not really expanded upon much from what I recall, just that they were tied for the best warriors in the Empire. They may have had the same shields/laser weapons as everyone else.

  96. Klondike Bar May 27, 2015 at 9:45 pm -      #196

    Ok since we are talking about Dune does anyone think Freemen vs Aiel is a good idea? Cause as far as I remember the freemen used knives and never use shields.

    Oh yea are you based on the Aelfinn from Wheel of Time.

  97. pimpmage May 27, 2015 at 9:55 pm -      #197

    The only experience I know about dune is the computer game. And Freemen were basically just desert raiders. They weren’t really high tier imo.

    And back to the match. Space wise, IOM easily takes it. What I havent seen yet, is numbers of troops the palace has besides it’s reinforcements. That and I don’t know of any ways to combat the emperor in a ground battle.

  98. Friendlysociopath May 27, 2015 at 10:13 pm -      #198

    That and I don’t know of any ways to combat the emperor in a ground battle.

    Do any of the IoM forces lift?

  99. Klondike Bar May 27, 2015 at 10:19 pm -      #199

    “The only experience I know about dune is the computer game. And Freemen were basically just desert raiders. They weren’t really high tier imo.”

    In the books at least they were wtfpwning the saurdukar. When outnumbered. And only had old guys and children.

    I have an exam tomorrow so I am going to bed now. I will think about suggesting it tomorrow.

  100. pimpmage May 27, 2015 at 10:19 pm -      #200

    Heh, but in all seriousness. Isn’t he supposed to be the strongest force user, like ever? I seriously doubt there would be any notable strong battle psykers that could face off against him because of the rarity of such power. The likes of Tigrus or Ravenor come to mind.

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