Conquer All Fiction Universe War Part 1

Conquer All Fiction Universe War Part 1

Suggested by sadot06

The Anti-Spiral (Gurren Lagann) decide that they want to conquer all of fiction so they recruit Dr. Doom (Marvel), Thanos, and Lex Luthor (DC). They will be traveling to different universes and stealing the most valuable items from them. They spend a year on prep.

They go to the DC universe to convince Lucifer Morningstar to join them. He says he’ll ally with them if they can steal the Ultimate Nullifier. If they fail to steal it, he’ll join the other team. They continue traveling around brainwashing heroes and recruiting allies from different verses. They took over Warhammer 40,000 Imperium and the annihilation wave. Next they traveled to the Skullduggery Pleasant Universe to resurrect and brainwash Argeddion, and retrieve Darquesse from the dimension she resides in. They’ve also reverse engineered the Accelerator and boosted it with Spiral power. They use the Accelerator on Darquesse and Argeddion to boost their magical power x300. Doom uses it on himself as well. They even take people from Marvel, DC, and Image and turn them to mind slaves.

Meanwhile, Franklin Richards becomes aware of what the villains are planning after Thor goes missing, so he warns Tony and Reed about what’s happening. And thus they set out on their quest to find allies. In Hyperion verse they found Shrike (Hyperion Cantos), Lord of Pain and master of speed. In Bastard verse they found Dark Schneider. They got the Forerunners in Halo. In DC they found Anti-Monitor (pre-new 52, Sinestro Wars version), Wonder Woman, Martian Manhunter, John Stewart, and had no choice but to hire Darkseid (who was quite angry that team villain didn’t call him, so he would’ve joined anyway), who in turn brings Despero with him. Once Onslaught (Xavier & Magneto) heard about this event he also decided to join and he even brought Adam Warlock. Reed also hired Brainiac and Mr. Majestic.

Team Villain sends a squad back to Marvel in order to take the Nullifier and secure Lucifer’s help. The Nullifier is being kept in a S.H.I.E.L.D Base in the Himalayas guarded by agents as well as Captain Marvel and John Stewart.

Team Villain’s bloodlusted Nullifier retrieval unit:

Superman

The Flash

Thor

Peak Spawn (pre-god)

616 Sorcerer Supreme Dr. Strange

Argeddion

Darquesse

Silver Surfer

 

Team Reed has sent the following to intercept them:

Martian Manhunter

Wonder Woman

Dark Schneider

Adam Warlock

Shrike

Despero

Onslaught (Xavier & Magneto)

Mr. Majestic

They start in Death Valley.

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222 Comments on "Conquer All Fiction Universe War Part 1"

  1. sadot06 May 9, 2015 at 1:16 am -      #1

    1st! It’s finally here. Shout out to Rookie and Commander Cross.

  2. Rookie May 9, 2015 at 1:26 am -      #2

    Dr. Doom respect thread:
    www.comicvine.com/doctor-doom/4005-1468/forums/dr-doom-appreciation-thread-21660/

    Lucifer Morningstar respect thread:
    www.comicvine.com/forums/lucifer-morningstar-1755/lucifer-morningstar-respect-thread-1514774/

    Dark Schneider respect thread:
    www.comicvine.com/forums/dark-schneider-118435/respect-dark-schneider-1502331/
    Most impressive feat IMO, survived big bang attack and wasn’t even damaged.

    Strange respect thread:
    www.comicvine.com/doctor-strange/4005-1456/forums/doctor-strange-respect-thread-547971/

  3. Parry Boy May 9, 2015 at 1:27 am -      #3

    Pre 52 Wally West steals the Ultimate Nullifier without anyone trying to defend it first
    —————————–
    I’ll side to Villains because of general knowledge

  4. Rookie May 9, 2015 at 1:36 am -      #4

    @Parry Boy

    “Pre 52 Wally West steals the Ultimate Nullifier without anyone trying to defend it first”

    Not if Shrike time-travels and stab Wally in the back.
    Shrike is one of the few things in fiction who might be more hax speedblitzer than Wally.

  5. pimpmage May 9, 2015 at 1:41 am -      #5

    Really cool match! What people in each verse can actually see a TTGL sized anti spiral being moving at billions of times ftl?

  6. Commander Cross May 9, 2015 at 1:42 am -      #6

    We now have a Cosmic War Worth talking about at last.
    Which is what this month desperately needs.

    Also, does either side have Excalibur or the like?
    As in The Sword of Promised Victory?
    That’s the Sword that the Soul Eater Avatar of which can grant LightSpeed+ Mobility and Teleporting among other things to the Wielder(s) in question.

  7. Rookie May 9, 2015 at 1:44 am -      #7

    @pimpmage

    ” What people in each verse can actually see a TTGL sized anti spiral being moving at billions of times ftl?”

    DS, Shrike, Flash, maybe Lucifer, although I am not sure.

  8. pimpmage May 9, 2015 at 1:46 am -      #8

    Which of those can actually do anything to a mech the size of a galaxy cluster then?

  9. Rookie May 9, 2015 at 1:50 am -      #9

    @pimpmage

    “Which of those can actually do anything to a mech the size of a galaxy cluster then?”

    Shrike (or Flash, but Flash won’t do this, since he is on the same team), can farcast himself close to pilot and stab him.

    DS actually have better destruction feats than Anti-Spiral and have soul targetting attack, so he may beat it even without teleportation. Or Shrike can farcast him close to pilot.

  10. Limbo Lowk May 9, 2015 at 1:55 am -      #10

    lol Braniac teleports pre-crisis Superman as a defensive measure near the UN..

  11. sadot06 May 9, 2015 at 1:57 am -      #11

    “DS actually have better destruction feats than Anti-Spiral and have soul targetting attack, so he may beat it even without teleportation. Or Shrike can farcast him close to pilot.”

    It should be noted for when the anti-spiral actually do fight in this war, their mechs don’t have pilots. They’re a race of humans that project their consciousness as spiral power to become an uber hax universal force. They materialized that galaxy tossing mech so as to fight team gurren on their level to give them a chance.

  12. pimpmage May 9, 2015 at 1:57 am -      #12

    Shrike can farcast himself hundreds of millions of lightyears away and locate the the anti spiral? Is he omniscient or something? I dont know anything about the bastard verse, but I find it hard to believe he this guy can see a mech moving billions of times ftl while jumping to and killing the AS.

  13. Rookie May 9, 2015 at 1:58 am -      #13

    @Limbo Lowk

    “lol Braniac teleports pre-crisis Superman as a defensive measure near the UN..”

    I think that we are using New-52 Brainiac here… Could be wrong though.

    Super Boy beats Anti-Monitor:

    static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/5/57746/2566787-1130561_greenlantern25_039_super.jpg

  14. sadot06 May 9, 2015 at 2:03 am -      #14

    “I think that we are using New-52 Brainiac here… Could be wrong though.”

    Yeah it’s New 52

  15. Rookie May 9, 2015 at 2:07 am -      #15

    @pimpmage

    ” Is he omniscient or something?”

    No (actually, not sure, Shrike made one of the most complicated plans in fiction and executed it perfectly and he always was in the right time in right place), but he have time travel, so he can take his time to find AS.

    ” dont know anything about the bastard verse, but I find it hard to believe he this guy can see a mech moving billions of times ftl while jumping to and killing the AS.”

    Angels in DS verse can see this with ease:

    static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11112/111124701/3388511-2.jpg

    Two guys cast spells and fight at such speed.

    Yet even base DS could move so fast that angels could not see him moving:

    static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11112/111124701/3388512-3.jpg

    And at the end of fight:

    static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11112/111124701/3388510-1.jpg

  16. pimpmage May 9, 2015 at 2:24 am -      #16

    “In a second, millions of movements,attacks, and counters are exchanged.

    I am guessing that’s nowhere near billions of times ftl. Keep in mind, the time it takes for light to reach across the universe could take hundreds of thousands of years. For a mech using galaxies as stepstones, light that shows AS once inhabited that space would take forever to reach the viewer. AS mechs would be completely invisible because they would be nigh infinitely distant from the point where light actually showed where it once was hundreds of thousands years in the past. I might be describing this horribly, but I am trying my best.

    Also, seeing as AS is able to move and react to its own mech, as well as other galactic cluster sized mechs, it, and it’s pilots would have matching reaction times and movement speeds.

  17. Rookie May 9, 2015 at 2:33 am -      #17

    @pimpmage

    “I am guessing that’s nowhere near billions of times ftl. Keep in mind, the time it takes for light to reach across the universe could take hundreds of thousands of years.”

    Should there be only physical movements, you would be 100% right.
    But there are spells among these attacks. While movements is simple, spells is more tricky, because both DS and Uriel have on themself and have to do:

    static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11112/111124701/3356660-dispelbound2.jpg
    static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11112/111124701/3356658-dispelbound.jpg

    So yes, fighting while doing this stuff all the time, because otherwise yout attacks won’t work is pretty damn impressive in terms of speed.
    And both DS and Uriel were getting faster and stronger, during the fight:
    static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11115/111151927/3877309-uriel+24.jpg

    Not to mention that if anything else fails, DS still have Bloodstone (look in his respect thread above) which will kill AS when used.

  18. Limbo Lowk May 9, 2015 at 3:02 am -      #18

    “I think that we are using New-52 Brainiac here… Could be wrong though.”

    I know and as of New 52 it has been revealed the true Braniac has survived through all the various reboots collecting cities from point in time and across realities and storing them in power dampaning domes.
    On that note, some pre52 characters are still alive as well. Braniac has them on Talos. They guy who is a planet that he moved outside of time.

  19. Rookie May 9, 2015 at 3:31 am -      #19

    @Limbo Lowk

    “I know and as of New 52 it has been revealed the true Braniac has survived through all the various reboots collecting cities from point in time and across realities and storing them in power dampaning domes.
    On that note, some pre52 characters are still alive as well. Braniac has them on Talos. They guy who is a planet that he moved outside of time.”

    Do they serve him?

  20. Limbo Lowk May 9, 2015 at 3:38 am -      #20

    “Do they serve him?”

    In a manner. His servant got some of them to do as it said by holding their cities hostage.

  21. Rookie May 9, 2015 at 3:40 am -      #21

    @Limbo Lowk

    “In a manner. His servant got some of them to do as it said by holding their cities hostage.”

    So he can use them at least.

    How strong is current Brainiac’s main body by the way?

  22. pimpmage May 9, 2015 at 3:49 am -      #22

    I just noticed… is that John Stewart the tv comedy guy? Or someone from another universe that shares the name? Whats he going to do? Make his opponents laugh to death?

  23. Rookie May 9, 2015 at 3:58 am -      #23

    @pimpmage

    “John Stewart ”

    Most likely he is:
    dc.wikia.com/wiki/John_Stewart_%28New_Earth%29
    dc.wikia.com/wiki/John_Stewart

  24. Numinous One May 9, 2015 at 4:18 am -      #24

    Hm, AS would wanna hope their team retrieves the UN.
    Lucifer would be a bitch to deal with by himself, not to mention he could just go inform Elaine about what’s happening.
    Considering she is sitting on the throne last I remember.

  25. Rookie May 9, 2015 at 4:21 am -      #25

    @Numinous One

    “Hm, AS would wanna hope their team retrieves the UN.”

    Why?

    “Elaine”

    Who is she?

  26. Limbo Lowk May 9, 2015 at 4:27 am -      #26

    “I just noticed… is that John Stewart the tv comedy guy? Or someone from another universe that shares the name? Whats he going to do? Make his opponents laugh to death?”

    Yeah, the daily show is actually his cover for his alternate ego as an African American marine/green lantern.
    ===
    “How strong is current Brainiac’s main body by the way?”

    Blast capable of hurting superman, can survive a punch from him, physically all he really show is that he can grow really big.

  27. Rookie May 9, 2015 at 4:30 am -      #27

    @Limbo Lowk

    “Blast capable of hurting superman, can survive a punch from him, physically all he really show is that he can grow really big.”

    So nothing really impressive then. Still his tech can help IMO.

  28. Numinous One May 9, 2015 at 5:04 am -      #28

    Because if they don’t, Lucifer is against them.
    Given he is quite possibly the most skilled manipulator in DC, and an absolute powerhouse in his own right, with his only limitation being he cannot create from nothing, he would be a terrible person to have as an opponent.

    Elaine is Lucifer’s niece, currently known as The Presence.
    Basically shit went down, apocalyptic, God wants to test the merits of either destroying Creation or restoring it.
    Ends up passing everything on to Elaine, everything gets fixed, happily ever after, then Elaine merges with the universe.

    Barring omnipotence/Elaine, you would still have Lucifer actively fucking up your day, supported by the Host of Heaven.

    On a side note, Lucifer is getting a DC TV show soon apparently. Constantly working towards one-upping the MCU I see.

    EDIT:
    Though that all depends on them failing to get the UN, which I doubt will happen.
    Unless I’ve forgotten most of Onslaughts feats.

  29. mack006 May 9, 2015 at 7:51 am -      #29

    Can’t the Shrike just dash into the S.H.I.E.L.D base immediately and grab the flag? It is technically the fastest of the group and even counters Flash in some way with his time hax.

    The rest of the group could just cover it while it makes its escape

  30. Malenfant May 9, 2015 at 9:12 am -      #30

    Half the characters explode from a lack of meaningful or quantifiable feats, while the rest of us are left to wonder why the fuck this is considered a battle of “all fiction”.

  31. Sauroposeidon May 9, 2015 at 9:45 am -      #31

    Gonna have to agree with Malenfant here.

  32. sadot06 May 9, 2015 at 10:23 am -      #32

    “Half the characters explode from a lack of meaningful or quantifiable feats, while the rest of us are left to wonder why the fuck this is considered a battle of “all fiction”.”

    Having detailed respect threads and descriptions of abilities=lack of meaningful and quantifiable feats. Good to know.

  33. Malenfant May 9, 2015 at 10:33 am -      #33

    “Having detailed respect threads and descriptions of abilities=lack of meaningful and quantifiable feats. Good to know.”

    Having detailed respect threads of meaningless and unquantifiable feats, to put it in a correct manner.

  34. sadot06 May 9, 2015 at 10:47 am -      #34

    “Having detailed respect threads of meaningless and unquantifiable feats, to put it in a correct manner.”

    Yeah, Superman’s feats are totally meaningless and unquantifiable. I haven’t seen you trolling people’s threads before. You must be new. I look forward to you disappearing.

  35. Ragnorke May 9, 2015 at 10:55 am -      #35

    “Having detailed respect threads of meaningless and unquantifiable feats, to put it in a correct manner.”

    Tbh most of these characters have very quantifiable feats.

    Sure there’s a few exceptions of “hax” feats, but just because something is hax doesn’t mean it’s meaningless.

    Dimensional BFR forexample is hax & unquantifiable.
    How do you quantify the energy needed to send someone to another dimension?
    But that doesn’t make it “meaningless”. It still has a very clear & understandable meaning.

  36. Malenfant May 9, 2015 at 11:28 am -      #36

    “Yeah, Superman’s feats are totally meaningless and unquantifiable.

    Tbh most of these characters have very quantifiable feats.

    Sure there’s a few exceptions of “hax” feats, but just because something is hax doesn’t mean it’s meaningless.

    Dimensional BFR forexample is hax & unquantifiable.
    How do you quantify the energy needed to send someone to another dimension?
    But that doesn’t make it “meaningless”. It still has a very clear & understandable meaning.”

    So apparently, comics are hard science. This is absolutely hilarious. “This speedster must be traveling at the speed of light because I say so”. “So why isn’t he redshifted/blueshifted due to his relativistic movement?”

    Oh, that’s right. They don’t exist, so logically he’s not fucking moving at lightspeed.
    Comic books aren’t hard science, you don’t get to pretend they are when you find it convenient.

    FYI: If I’m reading a comic book, and someone throws a truck at “.9c”, while his opponent takes the time to pick up another vehicle and block it (all the while the area around them isn’t erupting into a gigantic nuclear fireball), I do not conclude that the truck was moving at “.9c”. That would be pretty stupid.

    “I haven’t seen you trolling people’s threads before. You must be new. I look forward to you disappearing.”

    Then you haven’t looked hard enough. I’ve been here for over a year, one of my very first posts was in a thread suggested by you.

  37. Kitten Lord May 9, 2015 at 11:34 am -      #37

    Is this your alter ego like dr Jeckell Rag? He talks (types) all angry like you only instead of trying to make sense of fictional feats he wants to discard them…..

    Stop drinking the potions Rag, their not good for you!

  38. Ragnorke May 9, 2015 at 11:54 am -      #38

    @Malenfant
    “Oh, that’s right. They don’t exist, so logically he’s not fucking moving at lightspeed.”

    Wait… are you REALLY going to sit there and talk about how unquantifiable shit shouldn’t be debated?

    Aren’t you the one that spent over a thousand posts defending the idea of characters in Exalted being able to block “infinite damage”? A concept whos very existence is unquantifiable & meaningless?

    “Comic books aren’t hard science, you don’t get to pretend they are when you find it convenient.”

    Travel time is Travel time. If a character moved a lightyear in a minute, then he’s faster than light.
    The writer clearly ignored the side effects of light speed travel, and thus we ignore the side effects of light speed travel.
    We aren’t “pretending” like it’s hard science, we’re merely following the science that the writers of THAT fictional universe set up. Which is for the most part very similar to our own.

    We calculate it just like we would calculate anything else.

    “FYI: If I’m reading a comic book, and someone throws a truck at “.9c”, while his opponent takes the time to pick up another vehicle and block it ”

    ^ Nothing similar to this has ever happened.
    FTL characters usually only fight other FTL characters at FTL speeds.
    And it’s usually (always) done in space.

    “I do not conclude that the truck was moving at “.9c”. That would be pretty stupid.”

    You don’t have to conclude that… Because a feat like that has never happened…?

    @Kitten
    “Is this your alter ego like dr Jeckell Rag?”

    I’d like to think of it as more of a Sentry/Void situation.
    With me being the handsome Sentry ofcourse.
    i1226.photobucket.com/albums/ee417/Ironavenger6491/784766-sentry_returns001_super_zpse11e0d6f.jpg

  39. Malenfant May 9, 2015 at 12:53 pm -      #39

    “Wait… are you REALLY going to sit there and talk about how unquantifiable shit shouldn’t be debated?”

    Do tell how this is supposed to be a response to what you quoted. Other than snipping (and irrelevant) at past arguments.

    “Aren’t you the one that spent over a thousand posts defending the idea of characters in Exalted being able to block “infinite damage”? A concept whos very existence is unquantifiable & meaningless?”

    Exalted, being a universe where real life physics and mathematics explicitly do not apply in a variety of scenarios, does not have to pretend to be anything resembling “science”. In fact, it revels in its status as a fantasy. Compare with comics like Marvel, which time and again (attempt to) use real world concepts such as cardinality or thermodynamics to explain how their shit functions. FYI there is a very clear distinction between these two things.

    “Travel time is Travel time. If a character moved a lightyear in a minute, then he’s faster than light.
    The writer clearly ignored the side effects of light speed travel, and thus we ignore the side effects of light speed travel.”

    Or, Occam’s Razor. That character is moving at the speed of something like a, say, Star Wars turbolaser blast (re: significantly lower than the speed of light). This is, by the way, how logical debating fucking runs. Since none of the effects of relativistic movement are shown, there is no reason to believe it/he is moving at relativistic speeds.

    The writer can write whatever he wants for light-speed, but if he doesn’t more or less use the standards for what lightspeed is, don’t act like it means anything in a versus debate. (Alternatively we’re discussing a god being that can rewrite these rules or a universe where they don’t apply.)

    “^ Nothing similar to this has ever happened.
    FTL characters usually only fight other FTL characters at FTL speeds.
    And it’s usually (always) done in space.

    You don’t have to conclude that… Because a feat like that has never happened…?”

    You’ve read every comic book ever. And can objectively say that nothing like this has ever happened. From memory.

    Don’t claim shit you don’t know. If this point was relevant, it would only be detrimental to your argument.

  40. Epicazeroth May 9, 2015 at 1:26 pm -      #40

    @Mal: “So apparently, comics are hard science. This is absolutely hilarious.”
    Do you read? Like, are you physically able to comprehend written words? Of course comics aren’t hard science. The feats are still quantifiable. And the ones that aren’t have clear meanings (most of the time). There are always something things that just can’t be used at all, but anything seen on FP will be either quantifiable or easily understandable.

    “They don’t exist, so logically he’s not fucking moving at lightspeed.”
    Are you saying that, because it’s fiction, the character can’t be moving at lightspeed? Cause that’s bullshit. We know the Silver Surfer can go lightspeed because the narrator said so, he said so, other characters said so, and he’s been shown to do it.

  41. Ragnorke May 9, 2015 at 1:32 pm -      #41

    @Malenfant
    “Do tell how this is supposed to be a response to what you quoted. Other than snipping (and irrelevant) at past arguments.”

    You’re calling out feats for being unquantifiable & immeasurable, despite you previously using feats which are unquantifiable & immeasurable in previous threads.
    That’s a perfectly viable response which you seem to be butthurt over.

    “Exalted, being a universe where real life physics and mathematics explicitly do not apply in a variety of scenarios,”

    So… Forces aren’t real? And Energy transfer isn’t real?
    So… Basically every feat ever in Exalted is bullshit?
    So… they automatically just “explode” (in your words) because it’s all immeasurable and unquantifiable?

    Or did you just mean that real life physics USUALLY apply for most scenarios, such as you know… Walking, talking, hearing sounds, etc etc..
    But it just doesn’t apply in scenarios where magic is involved.

    But that’s the EXACT same case for Super Powers in Comics. So how is it any different?

    “does not have to pretend to be anything resembling “science”.”

    Well, aside from characters walking, talking, hearing sounds, creating sounds, creating forces, and transferring energy in everything they do.
    Therefor it does factually resemble out science in most regards whether you say so or not.

    It does obviously stray away from our logic in other regards.
    EXACTLY how comic book super powers do.

    So stop being a hypocrite Exalted wanker, and get that stick out of your ass.

    “Compare with comics like Marvel, which time and again (attempt to) use real world concepts such as cardinality or thermodynamics to explain how their shit functions.”

    When has Marvel ever tried to scientifically explain the characters with things like FTL super powers?
    Thor, Thanos, Adam Warlock and the like use magic.
    Silver Surfer & other cosmic characters use the “power cosmic”, which is the essence of the universe. Definitely not what i’d call “scientific”.
    The Sentrys powers are specifically stated to be a mystery to everyone, time and time again.

    “FYI there is a very clear distinction between these two things.”

    I think everyone here would disagree with you. But lets see how that goes.

    “Or, Occam’s Razor. That character is moving at the speed of something like a, say, Star Wars turbolaser blast (re: significantly lower than the speed of light)”

    …What the actual fuck?

    You’re saying a character that moved a lightyear in a minute was actually moving slower than the speed of light?
    How on earth does that logic make even the slightest bit of sense?

    In case you’re still in preschool or something: a “Lightyear” is the distance it takes Light a year to travel.
    If a character traveled that distance in less than a year, than he is faster than light.

    Characters having proven nanosecond reaction time canonically means they have faster than light reaction time,
    Since being able to see events taking place in nanoseconds means being able to see things faster than Lights speed.

    How Occams Razor has anything to do with this is beyond me. And probably beyond you too.
    I’m quite sure you’re using random debating terms to troll.

    “Since none of the effects of relativistic movement are shown, there is no reason to believe it/he is moving at relativistic speeds.”

    Aside from them moving distances at speeds faster than light…?
    I take it you’ve never read a comic book that takes place in space before.

    “The writer can write whatever he wants for light-speed, but if he doesn’t more or less use the standards for what lightspeed is, don’t act like it means anything in a versus debate.”

    Light speed is literally just a word dedicated to a number for a certain speed.
    Any character moving faster than that is faster than light speed.
    Relativity obviously doesn’t exist in the same way according to these writers, and thus it doesn’t exist in their universes.
    So characters moving at these speeds without the side-effects, is still just characters moving at these speeds.

    It still means exactly the same thing in a vs debate.
    It means these characters are able to move at a speed faster than 299 792 458 m/s.
    Is that just a number too difficult for what appears to be your rather simple mind to comprehend?

    “You’ve read every comic book ever. And can objectively say that nothing like this has ever happened. From memory.”

    I’ve read enough comics to know that hasn’t happened. And i know enough about those universes to know it hasn’t happened.
    But by all means, go ahead and prove me wrong. I dare you.

    You realize you actually need to PROVE that events like this happened in order to make your point relevant right?

    You can’t just say: “Shit like this happens in comics all the time!”
    And not post a single instance of shit like that happening.

    “Don’t claim shit you don’t know.”

    The funny thing is, you LITERALLY just claimed shit that you didn’t know.

    And for the record, i can very very very very very safely say i know more regarding comics than you.

  42. Ragnorke May 9, 2015 at 2:06 pm -      #42

    I truly don’t understand why anyone would make the claims that Malenfant is currently making.

    EVERY power in ANY fiction is unquantifiable. That’s a fact.
    If you delve into it enough, you’ll start to find contradictions all over the place.
    Mostly due to the law that: Energy & Matter can never be made from nothing.

    Street level characters, magic characters, reality warpers, any character with any superhuman feat…
    It’s all technically unquantifiable if you get into the energy portion of it.

    Some of the more powerful characters just take this to a greater scale.
    And thus people start pointing it out for no apparent reason.

    WE KNOW it isn’t logical. But it can still be calculated assuming it is logical.
    Why? Because as far as THEIR UNIVERSE and THEIR WRITER is concerned, it is logical.

    Why would someone come to a debating site made to debate fictional characters with fictional powers, and claim that those powers are illogical and thus meaningless?
    We debate the characters the way their writers intended them to be. Whether that obeys our exact laws of physics doesn’t really matter.
    Speed is still speed, whether they’re going above light speed of not doesn’t change that.

    The writers acknowledge their universes don’t perfectly follow logic. That’s why they’re FICTIONAL.

    But if you’re still going to call out a character with a power for being unquantifiable and thus meaningless, then you literally need to call out EVERY character on this site for the same thing. Unless they’re a normal human that has never done any superhuman feat in his life.

  43. Karen Starr May 9, 2015 at 2:14 pm -      #43

    I like to think in some way writers do kind of think about the issues of moving at light speed and above. Which is why most superheroes who can don’t unless they are in space. Because they know that moving that fast on planet will fuck shit up on a massive scale. These character can go that fast, but because you know they don’t want to ruin shit, because well they are heroes, and heroes don’t purposely cause insane levels of property damage normally.

  44. Malenfant May 9, 2015 at 2:26 pm -      #44

    Disclaimer: I’m not proofreading this due to temporal issues.

    @Epicazeroth
    “Do you read? Like, are you physically able to comprehend written words? Of course comics aren’t hard science. The feats are still quantifiable.”

    Of course they are. Just not in the way people like to think.

    “Are you saying that, because it’s fiction, the character can’t be moving at lightspeed?”

    No, I’m saying that because there’s nothing to indicate they are actually traveling at “light speed”,, the characters- guess what- may not be traveling at light speed.

    “We know the Silver Surfer can go lightspeed because the narrator said so, he said so, other characters said so, and he’s been shown to do it.”

    How hypocritical. You made an explicit point out how comic narration is most definitely unreliable in the Exalted thread (IIRC the example was the implication that a finite being was more powerful than an infinite being). And unfortunately you were completely correct there.

    As for him being “shown to do it” in the past.. the fuck does this mean? Care to share any examples of redshift/blueshift? Because that is definitely part of what it means to “show lightspeed”.

    @Ragnorke
    “You’re calling out feats for being unquantifiable & immeasurable, despite you previously using feats which are unquantifiable & immeasurable in previous threads.
    That’s a perfectly viable response which you seem to be butthurt over.”

    I’ve already explained to you- wait, no, tell me why “previous threads” are relevant in this, present thread. FYI this does not make you right. Sure, you can call me a hypocrite, but at the end of the day it fails to further this current, relevant argument.

    “So… Forces aren’t real? And Energy transfer isn’t real?”

    They are. You’ll note I said “in a variety of situations”. I could expound on what all this means, but I see no need to in a thread about comics, not Exalted.

    Funny how you keep calling me “butthurt” over that thread when everytime I start a new argument somewhere else you MUST loop back to it.

    “So stop being a hypocrite Exalted wanker, and get that stick out of your ass.”

    “Wanking Exalted”
    CTRL-F, the only person who’s brought Exalted into here is you.

    “When has Marvel ever tried to scientifically explain the characters with things like FTL super powers?
    Thor, Thanos, Adam Warlock and the like use magic.”

    They’ve tried to explainthe setting using real life scientific details, AFAIK they don’t even bother explaining how the characters “FTL” work. I’ve only ever seen them just *do it*. If you have counter evidence, I’m waiting.

    “…What the actual fuck?

    You’re saying a character that moved a lightyear in a minute was actually moving slower than the speed of light?
    How on earth does that logic make even the slightest bit of sense?”

    This is all hypothetical (hence use of Occam’s Razor), to actually make sense of wherever a feat is faster-than-light or not requires specific examples.

    “Characters having proven nanosecond reaction time canonically means they have faster than light reaction time,”

    Reaction times have the units of time. It’s a measure of the elapsed time between an action happening and the testee making some kind of response. “FTL reaction times” is a meaningless concept, because the speed of light is a speed, not a duration of time. If you want to argue that I’m making no sense, try making some yourself.

    “How Occams Razor has anything to do with this is beyond me. And probably beyond you too.
    I’m quite sure you’re using random debating terms to troll.”

    Like my original example: if nothing but the script it showing me that X is moving at lightspeed, then I assume that it’s not moving at lightspeed. Once again, bring up specific examples if you think this is challenged. Literally, using Occam’s Razor and actual science, we conclude that these “vast distances” are not so fucking vast in comic book land.

    “It still means exactly the same thing in a vs debate.
    It means these characters are able to move at a speed faster than 299 792 458 m/s.
    Is that just a number too difficult for what appears to be your rather simple mind to comprehend?”

    What you don’t realize is that being able to move at speeds faster than 299792458 m/s entails certain things that we never see in comics. If these things aren’t present, that means that, surprise, the 299792458 m/s value isn’t being surpassed.

    “I’ve read enough comics to know that hasn’t happened. And i know enough about those universes to know it hasn’t happened.
    But by all means, go ahead and prove me wrong. I dare you.”

    You’re the one who made the explicit statement, you’re the one who has to prove it never happened. What do I care? It was a hypothetical. If you want to chase around my hypothetical fucking statements all day be my guest.

    “You realize you actually need to PROVE that events like this happened in order to make your point relevant right?”

    i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Thor%20Stats/ThorSpeed01185.jpg
    Look here, how Thor shows zero relativistic effects when moving (eg no redshift/blueshift), and the fact that he can be drawn, since if he was moving FTL he’d be moving past his own light cone, you’d see doubles which don’t even exist. With all this in mind, even assuming the hyperbolic literary statements had any meaning of how far he was traveling, Occam’s Razor would lead us to conclude the distances happen to be far smaller. You don’t like it? No one cares. You prove the energy is moving at c in a comic book. That’s how burden of fucking proof works.

    e:
    Re- post #42
    If you want to talk about other fictions on this matter, you go ahead. As far as I’m concerned,(most) comics are the discussion here.

  45. Epicazeroth May 9, 2015 at 2:55 pm -      #45

    @Mal: “real life physics and mathematics explicitly do not apply in a variety of scenarios”
    Just like in comics. Where real life physics and mathematics often explicitly do not apply.

    “Or, Occam’s Razor. That character is moving at the speed of something like a, say, Star Wars turbolaser blast”
    That is the literal opposite of Occam’s Razor. What you’re doing is blatantly ignoring what’s shown to pull words out of your ass.

    “(Alternatively we’re discussing a god being that can rewrite these rules or a universe where they don’t apply.)”
    Let’s see who can move FTL… Surfer, Flash, Thor, Sentry, Galactus, Dr Strange, & Nova, for example, all explicitly have extradimensional energies, magic, or other abilities that would let them ignore the effects of FTL travel. Superman, MMH, and the rest of the alien-type Flying Bricks are the only ones where it would matter. And even then, they basically never move at such speeds on Earth anyway.

    “You’ve read every comic book ever. And can objectively say that nothing like this has ever happened. From memory.”
    What happened to Occam’s Razor? That’s not the type of thing that happens in comics.

    “Of course they are. Just not in the way people like to think.”
    What the fuck does that mean?! There is only one way to quantify something: with numbers. If you’re being really generous, I suppose you could quantify something using benchmarks; but the only way to quantify something is with a unit of measurement.

    “Because that is definitely part of what it means to “show lightspeed”.”
    NO IT IS NOT. Lightspeed is the speed of light. Nothing more, nothing less. In our reality, this happens to cause blueshift. However, in comics, it obviously does not. Faster Than Light is Faster Than Light, regardless of whether that specific artist decides to draw blueshift.

    Here. Surfer going FTL:
    static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11/111099/2952984-cosmic+powers+unlimited+03+-+silver+surfer_page_28_image_0001.jpg
    static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111112612/3510045-3201182937-27248.jpg
    static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/9/97299/1926953-ff41315hc7.jpg
    Scuttlebutt can go FTL. Surfer caught up.
    www.comicvine.com/images/1300-4210550
    www.comicvine.com/images/1300-4210548

    “What you don’t realize”
    No. What YOU don’t realize is that, in comics, going FTL has different effects than in real life. Almost all FTL characters use some form of justification to avoid these effects – be it Speed Force, Magic, or Power Cosmic.

    “You prove the energy is moving at c in a comic book.”
    He doesn’t need to. It’s already been proven, time and again. It’s plainly visible for anyone to see. Just because you personally happen to be obstinately ignoring anything that doesn’t exactly match with reality doesn’t mean it’s not proven.

    Comic book universes are different from real life. Got it? Thor is not real; the Silver Surfer is not real. But, in that universe, they are. In real life, going FTL would cause numerous dangerous effects around you. In comics – which, bear in mind, are different form reality – this is not the case. In comics, characters can go FTL without experiencing these effects. But the fact remains: they crossed lightyears in substantially less than one year. So they ARE faster than light.
    ===
    @Rag: Thanks for the help with the Projectile Motion thing. I figured it out (after much trial and error). I may be wrong though; if the character gets another match, I’ll ask someone to double check.

  46. Ragnorke May 9, 2015 at 3:35 pm -      #46

    @Malenfant
    “I’ve already explained to you- wait, no, tell me why “previous threads” are relevant in this, present thread. ”

    Because we’re discussing YOUR lack of understanding. Therefor YOUR previous posts are relevant.
    Unless you’re admitting that everything you said in your previous thread was bullshit, but i know you stand by every word for it, and therefor it is relevant.

    “Funny how you keep calling me “butthurt” over that thread when everytime I start a new argument somewhere else you MUST loop back to it.”

    You aren’t starting a “new” argument. We’ve been over this before.
    Regarding how quantifiable or unquantifiable feats should be in fictional universes different from our own.
    And guess where we had that discussion?

    “They’ve tried to explain the setting using real life scientific details, AFAIK they don’t even bother explaining how the characters “FTL” work. I’ve only ever seen them just *do it*. If you have counter evidence, I’m waiting.”

    But they DON’T try to explain most of those powers using Science. God knows where you got that idea from.
    As i said earlier, it’s usually magic or interdimensional powers. How is that “scientific”?
    I don’t need to provide counter evidence for something that you’ve failed to prove to begin with.

    “This is all hypothetical (hence use of Occam’s Razor), to actually make sense of wherever a feat is faster-than-light or not requires specific examples.”

    There’s nothing to make “sense” of.
    Characters in comics often travel lightyears, or several hundred lightyears, or across entire galaxies, within minutes or hours.
    To go from distance A to B in X amount of time, your travel speed is AB/X. In meters/seconds, that is known as velocity.

    “Reaction times have the units of time. It’s a measure of the elapsed time between an action happening and the testee making some kind of response. “FTL reaction times” is a meaningless concept, because the speed of light is a speed, not a duration of time. If you want to argue that I’m making no sense, try making some yourself.”

    You realize Light has a speed right?
    It reflects off of objects and to objects at a velocity.
    That velocity is the speed of light.
    Having nanosecond reaction times means you can react to events occuring within those nanoseconds.
    You know what event takes around a nanosecond to occur?
    Light travelling across a meter.
    Therefor your reaction times are faster than light.

    It’s cute when you think you’re good at science.

    “: if nothing but the script it showing me that X is moving at lightspeed, then I assume that it’s not moving at lightspeed.”

    Well no shit. But we DO have showings of characters moving at lightspeed.
    How about you just ask for this before starting a fit?

    i.imgur.com/YkA2ZZ4.jpg

    Author stating Superman can go FTL
    static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11120/111200299/4235143-2608249-____smashing_the_moon_2____.jpg

    Going to saturn in four minutes. That’s FTL.
    static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11120/111200299/4235177-tumblr_mxef1jysza1t5l3noo1_1280.jpg

    Supes can still see and react to Flash while he’s moving FTL.
    static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11120/111200299/4235191-3139608-0501469459-26301.jpg

    Author says Superman can race a Photon. Which is a light particle.
    static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11120/111200299/4436744-racespeedingphoton.jpg

    Did you really think we were just guessing that these characters are FTL? without any evidence for it?
    Seriously Malenfant?

    “using Occam’s Razor and actual science, we conclude that these “vast distances” are not so fucking vast in comic book land.”

    *sigh*
    So you’re saying a lightyear in comic book land is different from a real lightyear?
    Let me guess, you think a meter in comic book land is different from a real meter too?
    Unfortunately you don’t have any basis for a claim that big. So no.

    In the end of the day, multiple Authors statements > Your opinion.

    “What you don’t realize is that being able to move at speeds faster than 299792458 m/s entails certain things that we never see in comics. If these things aren’t present, that means that, surprise, the 299792458 m/s value isn’t being surpassed.”

    But we know for a fact that it IS being surpassed. It isn’t an opinion.
    We don’t see the side effects, sure, that’s probably because those side effects don’t exist in that universe because the writer doesn’t want it to.

    “You’re the one who made the explicit statement, you’re the one who has to prove it never happened. What do I care? It was a hypothetical.”

    You were using it as an EXAMPLE. An example to a situation which YOU claimed occurs in comics.
    Yet you’ve done nothing to back that up when told by someone that actually READS comics that things like that don’t happen.

    ” Occam’s Razor would lead us to conclude the distances happen to be far smaller. ”

    Unfortunately no one agrees with you here.

  47. Aelfinn May 9, 2015 at 3:38 pm -      #47

    As Ragnorke said: every fictional feat ever will stop making sense if you dig deep enough. Every feat ever will have certain aspects of it that don’t make sense. Any individual person can draw a line where they say “we didn’t see [insert real-life effect here], therefore, they weren’t moving at Mach speeds (for example)”. However, not only should that person be consistent, they should understand that authors sometime CLEARLY indicate when a feat is performed the way it is. It’s where the author’s intent is not clear wherein the debate over a particular feat should begin. When the narrator literally says “Thor doubled the speed of light”, everyone should take that as “yes, clearly the author wanted Thor to be moving 2x lightspeed,” REGARDLESS of the lack of other-wise real-life effects. However, you might start a debate if someone were to say, “well, Thor should have infinite mass then!”

  48. Ragnorke May 9, 2015 at 3:55 pm -      #48

    More proof of FTL reactions
    i.imgur.com/1Al4MOI.jpg

    Superman talking to himself in the time between nanoseconds
    static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11120/111200299/4235195-2374472-nanoseconduf2.jpg

    Superman stating once again that he can count the time between nanoseconds
    static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11120/111200299/4235196-3282455-4831454100-26303.jpg

    Author saying once again that Superman was flying FTL
    media.animevice.com/uploads/3/30027/525361-462572_1_super.jpg

    The writer states the escape velocity of the blackhole is faster than light.
    And Superman escapes it by flying faster.
    static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11112/111128444/3588808-1340779-154613_lightspeed2vm5_super.jpg

  49. Ragnorke May 9, 2015 at 4:08 pm -      #49

    Traveled from Earth to Venus within minutes at most. About Lightspeed.
    And he was fist fighting doomsday the entire way there.
    static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111113893/4488885-2161810001-38591.jpg

    Make of this what you will.
    static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/13/134509/2785463-superman_burst_into_infinity.jpg

    Here’s some Flash stuff,

    Says he’s running FTL, and considering he has near omniscient when it comes to the Speed Force, i’d say he knows what he’s talking about
    static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/125203/3897591-8931347725-33943.jpg

    Says he’s FTL again
    politedissent.com/images/may08/flash_240.jpg

    Says he can see events that last Attoseconds.
    That’s like an extra 6 zeros more than the Speed of light.
    static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/6/60522/3063719-2066634-sm_709_0020.jpg

  50. Ragnorke May 9, 2015 at 4:21 pm -      #50

    This happened too
    static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11111/111115290/3045706-2337456100-super.jpg

    And this
    media.animevice.com/uploads/0/8494/511701-flash_imp.jpg

    And this
    static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/4/43593/1357009-flash137p031rw.jpg

    This too
    static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/9/93477/2310457-flashv2148022rg.jpg

    Probably Flashes best feat.
    It was calced at trillions of times FTL
    static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11116/111163527/3933427-flash+saves+people+from+nuke.jpg

  51. Kitten Lord May 9, 2015 at 4:31 pm -      #51

    @Rag

    “Probably Flashes best feat.
    It was calced at trillions of times FTL”

    how? when the scan says it was done in less than the speed of light?

  52. Ragnorke May 9, 2015 at 4:44 pm -      #52

    “how? when the scan says it was done in less than the speed of light?”

    The scan says the Flash picked up 532,000 people 1 or 2 at a time,
    And took them all out of a nukes range,
    In 0.00001 second.
    Which even if all citizens were standing shoulder to shoulder, would be trillions of times FTL.

    I actually didn’t see the last bit, and although it doesn’t make any sense,
    It was still authors intent i guess.

    Probably the whole: time gets fucked when you move at relativistic speeds
    Which authors could use as a cop-out to bad writing.

  53. Blazing Waffles May 9, 2015 at 6:39 pm -      #53

    Flash speed-steals everyone on Team 2 before they can do much of anything.
    /
    If Team 2 can somehow kill or remove him from the fight, then Manhunter, Despero, and Onslaught mind-rape Team 1 into vegetables before they can do much of anything.

  54. sadot06 May 9, 2015 at 8:13 pm -      #54

    Darquesse feats:

    Darquesse narrowed her eyes. “Oh, I do not like being patronised.” She raised her hand and Tarry exploded into nothingness. Sanguine jerked back in astonishment. No blood, no meat, no bones. Nothing.
    “There,” Darquesse said, a smile on her face once again. “I feel so much better now.”
    “What did you do to him?” Sanguine asked. “Where is he?” “He’s still here,” said Darquesse, her fingers playing lightly against the air.
    “His atoms are spread out around the room. It’s funny, isn’t it? Group all those atoms together and Nestor has a body. Separate them, and you have to ask where he’s gone. I can put him back together, if you’d like.”
    “You could do that?” “Sure. I think. Putting things back together is a lot harder than pulling them apart, but I’ll do my best.” Darquesse chewed her bottom lip as she focused. A moment passed, and she closed her fist, and Tarry reappeared, blurring into existence. He staggered, eyes glassy, and dropped to his knees. “He’s in shock,” said Darquesse. “Either that or he’s a vegetable. The brain is tricky. I can see how the body reassembles, how the nervous system fits, but the brain will take a little more practice. Want a seat?” Sanguine looked at her.
    “Sorry?”
    “A seat,” she said. “You want one? You look tired.” Before he could answer, she had splayed her hand and Tarry exploded into nothingness once more. This time when she closed her fist, however, a chair blurred into being. “There,” Darquesse said.
    “Did you … did you just turn him into a chair?” “Yes I did,” said Darquesse, grinning. “Atoms are atoms. It’s all about what you do with them and how you arrange them. Man gets turned into a chair. Chair gets turned into a glass of water. It’s still Nestor, though. He’s still there. I haven’t killed him.”


    “It’s just another form to take.”
    “I’m gonna have to disagree with you on that one, Darquesse. He’s dead. You killed him. Where are his memories? His personality? Where are all the things that define him?”
    Darquesse tilted her head. “None of that stuff defines us, Billy-Ray. Memories can be lost. Personalities can be changed. Who we are, our true essence, is our energy. If I wanted to kill him, I’d just do it.” She clicked her fingers and the chair was incinerated in a burst of black flame. “There,” said Darquesse. “Happy now? Nestor is dead. Every last trace of him. His atoms, his energy – gone. He can’t be brought back now. That’s how you kill someone, Billy-Ray. You wipe them from existence. Stopping a heart from beating, cutting off thoughts, turning someone into something … that doesn’t mean anything. Consciousness doesn’t mean anything. Are you any more valuable than a rock, just because you have sentience? No you’re not.”

  55. Malenfant May 9, 2015 at 8:55 pm -      #55

    “Just like in comics. Where real life physics and mathematics often explicitly do not apply.”

    [Citation needed]

    “That is the literal opposite of Occam’s Razor. What you’re doing is blatantly ignoring what’s shown to pull words out of your ass.”

    Tell me what you think Occam’s Razor is, then.

    “Let’s see who can move FTL… Surfer, Flash, Thor, Sentry, Galactus, Dr Strange, & Nova, for example, all explicitly have extradimensional energies, magic, or other abilities that would let them ignore the effects of FTL travel. Superman, MMH, and the rest of the alien-type Flying Bricks are the only ones where it would matter. And even then, they basically never move at such speeds on Earth anyway.”

    If X entity has Y ability that explicitly says X entity can ignore or bypass the laws of physics, wonderful. Of course I’d ask for citation in a particular debate, but here it’s irrelevant. What I’m talking about is the other sort.

    “What happened to Occam’s Razor? That’s not the type of thing that happens in comics.”

    Explain yourself. Taken on their own these two sentences have no apparent relation.

    “NO IT IS NOT. Lightspeed is the speed of light. Nothing more, nothing less. In our reality, this happens to cause blueshift. However, in comics, it obviously does not.”

    Ergo it is not fucking light speed. It’s a mystical glowy energy beam power. If you have proof that says “by the way guys, in Marvel FTL speed doesn’t have red/blueshifts etc”, then where the fuck is it?

    “He doesn’t need to. It’s already been proven, time and again. It’s plainly visible for anyone to see. Just because you personally happen to be obstinately ignoring anything that doesn’t exactly match with reality doesn’t mean it’s not proven.”

    Don’t give me this bullshit. I’m not looking up your proof for you. Proof is something that the side making the claim provides, people. Just because you personally happen to be obstinately ignoring anything that doesn’t exactly match with reality doesn’t mean it’s not proven.

    “Comic book universes are different from real life. Got it? Thor is not real; the Silver Surfer is not real. But, in that universe, they are. In real life, going FTL would cause numerous dangerous effects around you. In comics – which, bear in mind, are different form reality – this is not the case. In comics, characters can go FTL without experiencing these effects. But the fact remains: they crossed lightyears in substantially less than one year. So they ARE faster than light”

    PROTIP: don’t waste your breath re-stating things you’ve already said. It’s pointless here, I’m not going to respond to them twice.

    “Because we’re discussing YOUR lack of understanding. Therefor YOUR previous posts are relevant.”

    No, we’re discussing comics and their relation to science. You’re the one who’s attacking from this angle, and judging by your next line I’m guessing it’s because you feel that discussion is unfinished. In which case you can take that to the actual thread.

    “You aren’t starting a “new” argument. We’ve been over this before.
    Regarding how quantifiable or unquantifiable feats should be in fictional universes different from our own.
    And guess where we had that discussion?”

    Never, because this is the first time we’ve had it, regardless of what you think. Re-post arguments if you really think they’re similar, I don’t care. Just stop sidetracking.

    “There’s nothing to make “sense” of.”

    Exactly. Because we’re not discussing specifics, and I don’t intend to.

    “Reaction times have the units of time. It’s a measure of the elapsed time between an action happening and the testee making some kind of response. “FTL reaction times” is a meaningless concept, because the speed of light is a speed, not a duration of time. If you want to argue that I’m making no sense, try making some yourself.”

    “You realize Light has a speed right?”

    I literally just fucking stated that: “because speed of light is a speed”.

    “It reflects off of objects and to objects at a velocity.
    That velocity is the speed of light.
    Having nanosecond reaction times means you can react to events occuring within those nanoseconds.
    You know what event takes around a nanosecond to occur?
    Light travelling across a meter.
    Therefor your reaction times are faster than light.”

    And this entails.. utter blindness due to light not propagating before you? What is this trying to prove?

    “Well no shit. But we DO have showings of characters moving at lightspeed.
    How about you just ask for this before starting a fit?”

    i.imgur.com/YkA2ZZ4.jpg”

    That’s not a showing off a character moving at light speed (re: my earlier arguments), that’s showing a magical red energy beam.

    “Author stating Superman can go FTL
    static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11120/111200299/4235143-2608249-____smashing_the_moon_2____.jpg”

    No, that’s the fallible, hyperbolic narrator designed as a literary tool rather than a fact machine.

    “Supes can still see and react to Flash while he’s moving FTL.
    static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11120/111200299/4235191-3139608-0501469459-26301.jpg”

    I don’t know why you think reaction time brings something else to the table. It doesn’t.

    “Author says Superman can race a Photon. Which is a light particle.
    static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11120/111200299/4436744-racespeedingphoton.jpg”

    And this is a factual, descriptive statement, rather than a basic fucking literary device because??? When I read a story about some mundane criminals doing criminal things, and there’s a line that goes “The building was so quiet he could here a fly buzzing on the other end”, I don’t assume that means he has super-hearing. People who do are pretty stupid.

    “*sigh*
    So you’re saying a lightyear in comic book land is different from a real lightyear?”

    Unless you can prove otherwise, because all of the evidence suggests that it is. That’s how the burden of fucking proof works.

    “Let me guess, you think a meter in comic book land is different from a real meter too?”

    No, I think they’re the same. Why? Because there’s nothing actively contradicting the fact.

    “But we know for a fact that it IS being surpassed. It isn’t an opinion.”

    No, you don’t, not with your current evidence.

    “We don’t see the side effects, sure, that’s probably because those side effects don’t exist in that universe because the writer doesn’t want it to.”

    So who the fuck says “this part of FTL doesn’t work, but this part does”. Why do they say “FTL speed is the same, but oh yeah everything else is completely different”. Why can’t I claim that the actual effects don’t exist in the way you like if this is the case?

    “You were using it as an EXAMPLE. An example to a situation which YOU claimed occurs in comics.
    Yet you’ve done nothing to back that up when told by someone that actually READS comics that things like that don’t happen.”

    What are you talking about?

    I’m not going to bother with the rest of your menagerie of posts here, they’re basically repeating the same thing over again and acting like they mean something. Although the Flash attosecond is hilarious, considering it nearly contradicts itself in the same sentence.

  56. Commander Cross May 9, 2015 at 8:57 pm -      #56

    @Malenfant at #55

    That Universe War with Shin Megami Tensei may need updating, but in any case, how does Darquesse stack up next to The Protagonists from the Mainline SMT Games + Strange Journey or The Devil Survivor Protagonists again in terms of Power Levels or Potential, so far?

    Does she seem promising against The Demi-fiend or the Devil Survivor 1 Protagonist, even?

    In the meantime, can we agree that everyone in this fight has BLOODY HIGH POWER LEVELS that border on Horse$hit and these people were likely guzzling up either too much Energy Drinks or too much Alcoholic Beverages to think up in a sane manner at least?

    —-

    @Everyone else

    If they think the current talking going on is horrific, why are they not checking out The Wheel of Time vs The Sword of Truth or even (God and Christ have mercy on me for saying it.) Rand al’Thor vs Richard Rahl for that matter, and make sure to not comment on the latter at the same time for that matter?

    A lot more head-ache inducing than current talks might be getting if anyone asks me.

  57. Friendlysociopath May 9, 2015 at 9:18 pm -      #57

    Ye greater Chaos Gods- the Walls of Text are back, with a vengeance.

  58. Numinous One May 9, 2015 at 9:39 pm -      #58

    “Unless you can prove otherwise, because all of the evidence suggests that it is. That’s how the burden of fucking proof works.”

    Post the evidence that shows this?
    Cause I’ve seen nothing so far that says that.
    On pretty much all debating sites I’ve seen, it’s taken as the default stance, that cosmic bodies are generally regarded the same as ours, for the purpose of debating.

    Fiction X’s Earth = Our Earth.
    Moon = Our Moon
    Solar system = Our solar system
    Universe = Our universe.

    Given that Marvel/DC literally takes place in the universe as we know it, I see no reason to assume that Lightyears differ in their difference.

    This is an assumption on your part Mal, one that is going up against decades worth of Lightspeed narrations, statements and feats.

    “No, I think they’re the same. Why? Because there’s nothing actively contradicting the fact.”

    Wait, so you think one unit of measurement is correct, yet another is incorrect?
    It literally cannot be that way unless you have proof of light being either faster or slower in those settings, than the light in real world.

    “So who the fuck says “this part of FTL doesn’t work, but this part does”. Why do they say “FTL speed is the same, but oh yeah everything else is completely different”. Why can’t I claim that the actual effects don’t exist in the way you like if this is the case?”

    Word of God says so, generally that will trump whatever we think unless contradicted by a showing in the setting. Which it hasn’t been on this issue.
    Unless you have evidence that your withholding from us.

  59. Malenfant May 9, 2015 at 9:53 pm -      #59

    “That Universe War with Shin Megami Tensei may need updating, but in any case, how does Darquesse stack up next to The Protagonists from the Mainline SMT Games + Strange Journey or The Devil Survivor Protagonists again in terms of Power Levels or Potential, so far?
    Does she seem promising against The Demi-fiend or the Devil Survivor 1 Protagonist, even?”

    Not familiar with Darquesse, actually. From Skullduggery Peasant?

    “Post the evidence that shows this?
    Cause I’ve seen nothing so far that says that.
    On pretty much all debating sites I’ve seen, it’s taken as the default stance, that cosmic bodies are generally regarded the same as ours, for the purpose of debating.

    Fiction X’s Earth = Our Earth.
    Moon = Our Moon
    Solar system = Our solar system
    Universe = Our universe.

    Given that Marvel/DC literally takes place in the universe as we know it, I see no reason to assume that Lightyears differ in their difference.”

    My evidence is at the end of post #44. A character (Thor) traveling at ‘faster-than-light’ speeds exhibits none such properties of going FTL. If it wasn’t for the narration (which time and again has been shown as an unreliable literary device), we wouldn’t even know he was supposed to travel at FTL speeds. With lack of any (explicit or provided) explanation for this phenomena, Occam’s Razor concludes he is not actually moving at FTL speeds. By proxy, any “light-years” being traveled by “FTL speedsters” (or at least Thor) aren’t light-years.

    “Wait, so you think one unit of measurement is correct, yet another is incorrect?
    It literally cannot be that way unless you have proof of light being either faster or slower in those settings, than the light in real world.”

    Who said anything about definitions? All I mean is that the distances being traveled aren’t light-years. Allow me to rectify my earlier statement(s); when I question the light-years of Marvel, I don’t question the very meaning of the word, but are actual observation of them (being traveled).

    “Word of God says so, generally that will trump whatever we think unless contradicted by a showing in the setting. Which it hasn’t been on this issue.
    Unless you have evidence that your withholding from us.”

    Why would I bother creating this argument if I knew a WOG statement that burned it from the ground up?

  60. Blazing Waffles May 9, 2015 at 9:56 pm -      #60

    This is one fail argument going on.
    /
    The bottom line is, if the narration outright says a character is moving at lightspeed (or beyond), or a feat of movement is calculated to be lightspeed (or beyond) then they are, no questions asked. How they do so and the effects it has as opposed to how lightspeed works in real life is completely and utterly irrelevant; for instance, if it’s stated Superman can move FTL, and if the intent of the writer in any situation in which can moves FTL is that he is moving FTL, then he absolutely is moving FTL and it means all of jack fucking shit if the depiction of him moving FTL is at all realistic. Whining about how ‘that’s not how it really works’ is both absolutely asinine and entirely meaningless given it was never meant to be realistic in the first place.
    /
    (As an aside, Glorious Godfrey once theorized that Superman doesn’t actually propel himself so much as he bends spacetime around him, sort of like how teleporting works in Zone of the Enders. If that’s the case, he isn’t really ‘moving’ at all.)

  61. GrandMaster May 9, 2015 at 10:00 pm -      #61

    I’m thinking Team Villain takes the nullifier. In physical strength they outclass team Reed with both Superman, Thor, and (I think) Silver Surfer. 3 people on the team (Supes, Flash, Surfer) can move many millions of times faster than light and could turn team feed into bloody smears before they could react. The only person with reactions on par is Shrike and perhaps WW. In sorcery Team Hero is superior but Team Villain does have Dr. Strange, who is more accomplished than all of the sorcerers on team hero that I know about.

    And because team villain takes the Nullifier, they get Lucifer, who pretty much stomps the crap out of everyone else. The only person on Team 2 who can possibly fight on par with him is Anti-Monitor or New 52 Darkseid, who I heard got a huge power boost but not sure if true.

  62. Commander Cross May 9, 2015 at 10:07 pm -      #62

    @Malenfant at #59

    Yes, Darquesse is From The World of Skulduggery Pleasant by Derek Landy, which is up there with The Dot Hack(.Hack) Universe for getting The Most Screwed-over By the Global Publishers actually.

    How does she stack up with The Demi-Fiend or Flynn from SMT IV/4 so far at the moment, let alone the Protagonists of Devil Survivor 1 + 2 for that matter?

    Darquesse can also Copy Supernatural Powers if/when it crosses her mind to do so, if she lives long enough.
    Who’s to say she might not go and copy out Dark Schneider’s Dispel Bound or 616 SS Doctor Strange’s Auto-Shields of his own?

    Hmm, now that we think about it, could she copy the Light Hawk Wings of Tenchi Muyo by chance?

    (Original!-)Tenchi Masaki(No Kami Forms needed), 616 SS Strange and Post-Timeskip Dark Schneider have Auto-Shields NO ONE would want to cross unless they can either bypass, disable or destroy them actually.
    They’re also what one crudely calls ‘FTL Lunatics’ for good measure, and they also fought A LOT of Supernatural Opponents.

  63. Epicazeroth May 9, 2015 at 10:24 pm -      #63

    @Rag: “You know what event takes around a nanosecond to occur?”
    Nitpick: Light actually takes about 3.3 nanoseconds to travel one meter. That’s the literal definition of “meter”.
    ===
    @Mal: “If you have proof that says “by the way guys, in Marvel FTL speed doesn’t have red/blueshifts etc”, then where the fuck is it?”
    Given: Characters in Marvel are routinely shown to travel lightyears in less than one year.
    ∴ Characters in Marvel can travel FTL.
    Given: These characters do not experience the Doppler Effect when going FTL.
    ∴ The Marvel universe does not have the Doppler Effect at relativistic speeds.

    “Never, because this is the first time we’ve had it, regardless of what you think.”
    Alternatively, we have had this argument before, regardless of what you think.

    “Unless you can prove otherwise, because all of the evidence suggests that it is”
    No. That is not IN ANY WAY TRUE AT ALL. It is clear that something is different between our reality, and Earth-616. Occam’s Razor dictates that we pick the simplest solution. “The artist decided not to draw the Doppler Effect” is a much, much simpler conclusion than “The speed of light and length of a year are different”.

    “No, you don’t, not with your current evidence.”
    Yes. We absolutely fucking do. Literally everybody who has ever read a comic book with FTL characters has (eventually) come to the conclusion that they’re FTL. Literally every single person except you.

    “Why can’t I claim that the actual effects don’t exist in the way you like if this is the case?”
    You can. You’ll just be wrong. Because the author’s word is worth more than yours in regards to his work.

  64. Epicazeroth May 9, 2015 at 10:31 pm -      #64

    @Cross: Would you happen to know where in Hell I can find the rest of the Skulduggery Pleasant books, after The Faceless Ones? I tried to read the series a few years ago, but I literally could not locate anything past Book 3 in the United States.
    ===
    @Mal: “Why would I bother creating this argument if I knew a WOG statement that burned it from the ground up?”
    To be provocative?

    Also, that Flash feats Rag posted actually does mention blueshift. Thereby rendering your entire argument useless. Flash uses the mass increase that results from relativistic speed all the time in fights, too.
    This feat: media.animevice.com/uploads/0/8494/511701-flash_imp.jpg

  65. pimpmage May 9, 2015 at 10:36 pm -      #65

    Lets all just forget about the fastest person in this match, the galaxy cluster sized mech that can create big bangs. Totally irrelevant here amirite..?

  66. sadot06 May 9, 2015 at 10:38 pm -      #66

    “Would you happen to know where in Hell I can find the rest of the Skulduggery Pleasant books, after The Faceless Ones? I tried to read the series a few years ago, but I literally could not locate anything past Book 3 in the United States.”

    I bought most of them off Amazon. Ebay should have them though.

    Yup: www.ebay.com/itm/Skulduggery-Pleasant-Derek-Landy-9-Books-Set-Collection-/191354940736?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2c8da4ad40

    www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2047675.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.Xskullduggery+pleasant+book+9.TRS0&_nkw=skullduggery+pleasant+book+9&_sacat=0

  67. sadot06 May 9, 2015 at 10:40 pm -      #67

    “Lets all just forget about the fastest person in this match, the galaxy cluster sized mech that can create big bangs. Totally irrelevant here amirite..?”

    The anti-spiral aren’t actually fighting though. The leaders of each side have sent a team in their stead.

  68. Commander Cross May 9, 2015 at 10:43 pm -      #68

    @Epicazeroth at #64

    My proposition to you is Look up Amazon.com, Order some of the Post-Faceless Ones Volumes in Stores, and THEN DONATE TO THE LOCAL PUBLIC LIBRARIES AFTERWARD ASAP!!!
    Or you can find them on Ebay as Sadot recommended, that works too so long as the volumes are still intact, but STILL DONATE
    TO THE LOCAL PUBLIC LIBRARIES ASAP IF YOU
    GOT ENOUGH COPIES!!!

    If you get that done, you’d get rid of a lot of needless headaches going on because the Publishers and a lot of the Government are being D-bags and Jackasses about the Post-Faceless Ones Volumes, believe me.

    Bad enough that Prior to Project X-Zone 1 + 2 that Namco x Bandai found it a bright idea to be Jackasses rather than Publishers in certain worlds, even worse that HarperCollins is following their lead for that matter. -_-
    Dot Hack(.Hack) fans and the Skulduggery Pleasant fanbase need to work together when it stems to things like that, not gonna lie and both need to get better publishers to begin with.
    Never get me started with what happened with Capcom and MegaMan or Konami and Silent Hill either, just don’t. T_T

    @Everyone else

    As for the real talk at hand, we’re welcome to deem whoever wrote the Twilight sequels to know Jack$hit on whatever it is she’s talking about in this site no questions asked, though it would leave a lot of matters with regards to everything else in general, and that one’s more the Exception rather than the Rule ideally speaking.

    The Abrahamic Texts(especially the Christian Bible though the Islamic Quran has its moments too.) tend to get mutilated all over the place as well more than first glances suggest, I mean seriously, What The Hell was King James Smoking when he wanted that line ‘Thou Shall Not Permit A Witch To Live’ somewhere in The Exodus in particular?

    Humor me in those regards why won’t you all.

  69. GrandMaster May 9, 2015 at 10:47 pm -      #69

    “Lets all just forget about the fastest person in this match, the galaxy cluster sized mech that can create big bangs. Totally irrelevant here amirite..?”

    He isn’t part of the nullifier team. And compared to Lucifer and Pre 52 Anti-Monitor, he’s small fry.

  70. Malenfant May 9, 2015 at 11:25 pm -      #70

    “Given: Characters in Marvel are routinely shown to travel lightyears in less than one year.
    ∴ Characters in Marvel can travel FTL.
    Given: These characters do not experience the Doppler Effect when going FTL.
    ∴ The Marvel universe does not have the Doppler Effect at relativistic speeds.”

    Or we can say:
    Given: Characters in Marvel are routinely shown to travel lightyears in less than one year.
    ∴ Characters in Marvel can travel FTL.
    Given: These characters do not experience the Doppler Effect when going FTL.
    ∴ These characters are traveling at a speed that cannot be compared to the real life definition of “lightspeed” .The “light-years” they travel are distances that cannot be equated to real life light-years.

    There is literally nothing to give the former precedence over the latter other than your bitching. Meanwhile, the latter actually holds under scientific and logical scrutiny, which happen to be very important ideas in versus debates.

    “Alternatively, we have had this argument before, regardless of what you think.”

    Like I said, re-post your points in that case. I don’t care, why not?

    “No. That is not IN ANY WAY TRUE AT ALL. It is clear that something is different between our reality, and Earth-616. Occam’s Razor dictates that we pick the simplest solution. “The artist decided not to draw the Doppler Effect” is a much, much simpler conclusion than “The speed of light and length of a year are different”.”

    Read my clarification in post #59.

    “Yes. We absolutely fucking do. Literally everybody who has ever read a comic book with FTL characters has (eventually) come to the conclusion that they’re FTL. Literally every single person except you.”

    Evidence does not equate to people who agree with you.

    “You can. You’ll just be wrong. Because the author’s word is worth more than yours in regards to his work.”

    If the author has given word on this, why haven’t you posted it? This would literally win your entire argument.

    “Also, that Flash feats Rag posted actually does mention blueshift. Thereby rendering your entire argument useless. Flash uses the mass increase that results from relativistic speed all the time in fights, too.
    This feat: media.animevice.com/uploads/0/8494/511701-flash_imp.jpg”

    “Characters that travel at FTL velocities all explicitly have extradimensional energies, magic, or other abilities that would let them ignore the effects of FTL travel. (Flash included in the list of examples.)”

    *Posts scan-example that shows a character *using* effect of FTL travel.*

    This does not help your argument. This basically fucks it in the ass. As for the Flash, this scan puts your actual proof into question:
    static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/9/93477/2310457-flashv2148022rg.jpg

    Actual Physics 101: As the speed of the object increases and starts to reach appreciable fractions of c, the portion of energy going into making the object more massive gets bigger and bigger. Any extra energy you put into an object does not make it move faster but just increases its mass.

    And why would my entire argument be rendered useless by the violation of its thesis by a single character, anyways? When it’s a catch-all statement?

  71. pimpmage May 9, 2015 at 11:38 pm -      #71

    “He isn’t part of the nullifier team. And compared to Lucifer and Pre 52 Anti-Monitor, he’s small fry.”

    How is he a small fry? He is nigh omni. He creates new universes for the pilots of TTGL to bfr them away from their plans. He can equip rockets that hit in all space and time. He even uses probability alteration. Sucks that he isn’t actively attacking though. Im sure he could create additional TTGL robots for others to use.

  72. GrandMaster May 10, 2015 at 12:14 am -      #72

    “How is he a small fry? He is nigh omni. He creates new universes for the pilots of TTGL to bfr them away from their plans. He can equip rockets that hit in all space and time. He even uses probability alteration. Sucks that he isn’t actively attacking though. Im sure he could create additional TTGL robots for others to use.”

    The Anti-Monitor absorbed universes easily and posed a serious threat of absorbing/recreating the entire Multiverse. Lucifer is all powerful with the exception that he cannot create independent matter. But he can shape it. He and his brother Michael (who alone can create independent matter) were given all of God’s power to create Creation.

  73. Epicazeroth May 10, 2015 at 12:21 am -      #73

    @Mal: “Or we can say”
    Well, we could. But that’s a paradox. What you’re proposing is “Characters in Marvel travel FTL. Character in Marvel cannot travel FTL.”

    “Evidence does not equate to people who agree with you.”
    True. But “At least 95% of people agree with me” is as close as you can get to “This absolutely true” in a subjective debate.

    “As for the Flash, this scan puts your actual proof into question:”
    1) No it doesn’t. It shows Flash using his speed to do an Infinite Mass Punch; which I said he does.
    2) The Speed Force lets him ignore the “atomize the planet and shoot into space” part of going at relativistic speeds.

    “Any extra energy you put into an object does not make it move faster but just increases its mass.”
    This doesn’t contradict what Flash did at all. He went at a significant fraction of lightspeed, which gave his fist an enormous mass.

  74. pimpmage May 10, 2015 at 1:07 am -      #74

    “The Anti-Monitor absorbed universes easily and posed a serious threat of absorbing/recreating the entire Multiverse. Lucifer is all powerful with the exception that he cannot create independent matter. But he can shape it. He and his brother Michael (who alone can create independent matter) were given all of God’s power to create Creation.”

    Two TTGL mechs condensed an entire universe to a single point between their drill in 20 seconds video time. Keep in mind, the speed at which they move boosts that to millions of times ftl. So… instantly. Also, being omni but not being able to create matter is EXTREMELY limited. You cant make something from nothing? Like creating energy? Doing ANYTHING? AS grabbed two galaxies and mushed them together to make a sort of beam. The resulting beam spat out dozens of galaxies. And going along with the speed issue… instantly. Oh yeah, like I said earlier, AS casually creates dozens of specifically tailored universes with the snap of his fingers.

  75. Numinous One May 10, 2015 at 1:18 am -      #75

    “Also, being omni but not being able to create matter is EXTREMELY limited. You cant make something from nothing? Like creating energy? Doing ANYTHING? AS grabbed two galaxies and mushed them together to make a sort of beam. The resulting beam spat out dozens of galaxies. And going along with the speed issue… instantly.”

    Not that limiting really, as long as matter exists, he can shape it how he pleases.
    Give him access to the Dunamis Demiurgos and he jumps to straight up multiversal.
    Michael and Lucifer were the ones that created, well Creation.
    Durability wise, he tanked a blast that would have destroyed all of Creation.

    God forbid in this crossover he figures out Spiral Energy.
    When Lucifer was created, The Presence created him with infinite willpower. He literally bleeds will instead of blood.

  76. Limbo Lowk May 10, 2015 at 2:17 am -      #76

    Pre52 Wally recently kicked Flashpoint Wonder Woman in the head with the relativistic mass of a small moon…. well thats the best I got. Seems where going all cosmic up in here thought. Hopefully Darksied gets some more feats fight anti-monitor.

  77. Ragnorke May 10, 2015 at 5:49 am -      #77

    @Malenfant
    “No, we’re discussing comics and their relation to science.”

    And you’re failing to realize that no fiction is ever perfectly in line with our science.
    Powers & Super Natural feats by their very definition are against our science.

    We debate characters they way THEIR writers intended them to be.
    If that means ignoring certain effects, then we ignore those certain effects, because those characters can ignore those effects.

    “And this entails.. utter blindness due to light not propagating before you? What is this trying to prove?”

    Not in DC apparently.
    i’m not “trying” to prove. I already HAVE proved that characters can react to & notice things which are faster than light.

    “i.imgur.com/YkA2ZZ4.jpg”
    That’s not a showing off a character moving at light speed (re: my earlier arguments), that’s showing a magical red energy beam.”

    If you actually bothered to read the dialogue, the Author says that he leaves his Earthly perceptions & concepts behind him.
    It’s the Authors direct way of saying the fictional universe is in fact fucking FICTIONAL, and its laws are DIFFERENT.
    The Author flat out says that these characters are able to do things which would be considered impossible to the people of Earth.

    “http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11120/111200299/4235143-2608249-____smashing_the_moon_2____.jpg
    No, that’s the fallible, hyperbolic narrator designed as a literary tool rather than a fact machine.””

    How is that Hyperbolic?
    The Author says “Superman only works this hard when he’s about to pass the speed of light. but he doesn’t need to go that fast this time”
    It’s using past tense. The author is directly saying: Superman HAS passed the speed of light in the past, but he doesn’t need to right now.
    And that isn’t in any way fallible, because it just further supports his other showings, which are also FTL.

    You clearly had no real response to this, therefor just decided to go down the regular butthurt debating route of: Oh, that’s a hyperbolic fallacy, why? just caus i say so. Hur Dur.

    “http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11120/111200299/4235191-3139608-0501469459-26301.jpg
    I don’t know why you think reaction time brings something else to the table. It doesn’t.”

    Oh i don’t know. Being able to talk, and having your brain process faster than the speed of light…
    That still directly means part of your body is moving at FTL speeds to function.
    But obviously since you had no real rebuttal, you just shrug it off as irrelevant.

    “http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11120/111200299/4436744-racespeedingphoton.jpg
    When I read a story about some mundane criminals doing criminal things, and there’s a line that goes “The building was so quiet he could here a fly buzzing on the other end”, I don’t assume that means he has super-hearing. People who do are pretty stupid.”

    That’s because it’s realistically possible to hear flys in the other end of the room. Specially if the building has a certain echo to it.
    But here, the Author specifically states: Superman can race a speeding photon its target.
    Why would an Author say “X can race a speeding train!” if X can’t race a speeding train?

    And don’t even bother saying it’s Hyperbolic, because the scan is specifically about how Superman COULDN’T stop something, DESPITE being that fast.
    Which means that the Author DOES think Superman can move that fast.

    “Why can’t I claim that the actual effects don’t exist in the way you like if this is the case?”

    Because we SEE them crossing distances which requires them to be faster than the speed of light.
    And we are TOLD by Authors that they are capable of it.
    Any other side effects that may or may not occur are completely up to the Author. Not us.

    I do like how you ignored the other ELEVEN scans of relativistic or FTL movements.
    I’d love to hear your bullshit attempts at debunking those too, because you don’t THINK it’s possible, despite the Authors saying word to word that it is.

    Debating 101 kids, don’t be a troll like Malenfant.

  78. Ragnorke May 10, 2015 at 6:18 am -      #78

    Silver Surfer travels the universe in a matter of moments, and the Author SAYS he was moving at a speed that defies description in human terms
    i.imgur.com/GVQZF3J.jpg
    The Author also lightly hits on relativity, by saying Silver Surfer warped Space & Time as he flew by.

    SS Catching up to someone 3x FTL (notice how casual it is for these characters to be moving at that speed? That’s because it’s Authors intent for it to be that casual)
    i.imgur.com/0dslPGf.jpg

    Reed Richards, one of Marvels smartest humans (capable of creating time machines and shit) confirms Silver Surfer can reach Light Speed travel in seconds
    i.imgur.com/4Romgl3.jpg

    We visibly see SS fly out of a Galaxy. Go ahead and do the math on how big even the smallest known Galaxy is.
    i.imgur.com/uJidnIu.jpg

    He searches the entire planet for Namor in the time it takes Strange to finish a sentence. Yes that’s FTL. And SS isn’t known for lying or half assing anything.
    i.imgur.com/iL7yedv.jpg

  79. Ragnorke May 10, 2015 at 6:27 am -      #79

    Silver Surfer saying word to word that he needs to travel at the speed of light.
    Once again, he’s a character that doesn’t joke around or use hyperbolic statements. Ever.
    i.imgur.com/C9w1Trh.jpg

    More evidence to suggest SS is faster than light.
    i.imgur.com/j3MiFiA.jpg

    SS moved his entire body to break out of his prison in a nanosecond.
    Yes that’s also FTL.
    i.imgur.com/YYtA2F4.jpg

    SS moves fast enough to move to the far future
    i.imgur.com/nml4KMk.jpg

    Also, Marvel is a universe where shit like this happens:
    i.imgur.com/AGvQEvO.jpg
    Yet Malenfant is still bitching about how FTL travel “shouldn’t” be possible.

  80. Ragnorke May 10, 2015 at 6:36 am -      #80

    Gladiator & Hyperion fighting in Nanoseconds. Again, that’s FTL.
    i.imgur.com/f7CxaPz.jpg

    Gladiator flys from lightyears away in a few moments.
    i.imgur.com/QOWtwmk.jpg

    Reed Richards, smartest human on earth (smart enough to make time machines and shit), confirms Gladiator was flying towards earth at a 100 times FTL
    i.imgur.com/zIfoVg6.jpg

    Gladiator followed and caught up to a ship that warped into Hyperspace. So FTL.
    i.imgur.com/ai5oHHA.jpg

  81. Ragnorke May 10, 2015 at 6:45 am -      #81

    Thor creates winds in space to move his ship FTL.
    i.imgur.com/nbukMve.jpg
    Author specifically says: “Faster than the speed of light or all known laws of man”

    Thor throws his hammer to the end of the galaxy and has it return in about 60 seconds.
    Yea that’s something like 80,000,000,000 times FTL if we assume the size of the galaxy is the same a our own.
    i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Thor%20Mjolnir/ThorMjolnir116-SpeedWhomtheGodsWoul.jpg
    Even if we assume their galaxy is 80 billion times smaller than our own, it’s STILL faster than light.

    Just to re-post this, Thor was moving at double the speed of light.
    static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11119/111195459/4335217-3440599548-35237.jpg
    To which Malenfant countered by saying he THINKS it’s Hyperbole.

    Thor follows and catches up to Ego, who was moving at Hyperspace. So FTL.
    i.imgur.com/VYmB8lI.jpg
    i.imgur.com/kp1nZYs.jpg

  82. Kitten Lord May 10, 2015 at 6:47 am -      #82

    @Rag

    “Gladiator & Hyperion fighting in Nanoseconds. Again, that’s FTL.
    i.imgur.com/f7CxaPz.jpg
    –”

    Problem with this is that it says in the second panel that it requires “seconds” for the golden dude to recover. He recovers by the time Hyperion goes for the punch yet they were only miles apart.

    So it took Hyperion seconds just to travel miles? Did I read it wrong?

  83. Ragnorke May 10, 2015 at 6:51 am -      #83

    Sentry flies from Earth to the Sun during a brief conversation. So FTL.
    i.imgur.com/L17rjTQ.jpg
    i.imgur.com/AT6EB9R.jpg

    When still learning to control his powers, Sentry flew from Earth to Saturn in the duration of a scream. So FTL.
    i.imgur.com/CTFURML.jpg
    i.imgur.com/E8KpWPa.jpg

    And here’s another Flash feat i came across.
    static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11112/111120432/3668275-6845285643-34844.jpg

  84. Ragnorke May 10, 2015 at 6:55 am -      #84

    Sentry picks up Thor and flies at what the Author says is “Many times the speed of light”
    i.imgur.com/1tbkmT2.jpg
    The author does touch on relativity a bit though and says they bend time & space.

    They end up “many lightyears” away.
    i.imgur.com/I9vjc7W.jpg

    Nova moves at close to superluminal Velocity
    i.imgur.com/EMw7F8K.jpg

    Cap Marvel just lol noes attacks from it
    i.imgur.com/keiLLBu.jpg

    @Kitten
    “So it took Hyperion seconds just to travel miles? Did I read it wrong?”

    It does say they both took a big hit and were still recovering from it.
    Hyperion started moving first, but it doesn’t mean he was completely back to his senses.
    Also, some characters do need to accelerate up to their top speeds first. Hyperion isn’t known for being the fastest guy around in Marvel.

  85. Kitten Lord May 10, 2015 at 7:04 am -      #85

    Yes I forget about acceleration, maybe it takes him a long time to reach his max.

    Also Rag I think youve proven your point that FTL exists in comics, even if its not under the same laws as our world nor exhibits the same physics.

    If Malenfant wants to assume all physics for fiction is wrong and so we cannot even begin to try and argue any feat then let him believe this and he can leave. If he does not think its logical to argue physics with fiction then he can just as well avoid fights where people do, its our choice whether want to pay him mind or not.

  86. Ragnorke May 10, 2015 at 7:14 am -      #86

    Betaraybill & Silversurfer have a short fight while continuing to keep up with a ship moving through Hyperspace.
    i.imgur.com/ThSo17u.jpg

    Author says Betaraybill travels half the galaxy at his top speed.
    i.imgur.com/Z46sdVG.jpg

    Betaraybill bullrushes Star-Dust through a Star (hehe, the irony) from one end of the solar system to the other.
    i.imgur.com/9jxWWc7.jpg

    Betaraybill & Quasar both confirm SS is FTL
    www.comicvine.com/images/1300-3879940

  87. Kitten Lord May 10, 2015 at 7:17 am -      #87

    Thor only with the face of a donkey? Seriously marvel?

  88. Limbo Lowk May 10, 2015 at 7:40 am -      #88

    “Thor only with the face of a donkey? Seriously marvel?”

    Give them a break, he came from a simpler time where every character verbally announced what they were doing as they were doing it and underwear went on the outside. Decisions where made and they rolled with it… Like Ironman and his rocket skates.
    i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff53/cocomicsblog/Avengersv101203.jpg

  89. Kitten Lord May 10, 2015 at 7:53 am -      #89

    What were they thinking? did they all come together in a meeting and someone said “yeh you know, people like Thor, lets give him a donkey face!” and they all nodded in approval?

    It must have been near to finishing time and the sun was warm outside…..the office sweltering…

  90. Ragnorke May 10, 2015 at 9:03 am -      #90

    I have a feeling Malenfant didn’t expect things like FTL to be as common as they really are. He probably expected it to be an outlier, which contradicted physics, and thus called it out for being Bullshit or misinterpreted.
    Which is reasonable, and probably the same thing i would have done.

    But FTL is something that is SO common, to the point where it no longer even astonishes or impresses the characters in that verse.

    Both Marvel & DC Authors have already mentioned how these powers don’t make sense to human science.
    And have already mentioned how they warp/bend Time & Space when they use these powers (but never went in depth regarding it)

    We have claims from the characters using the powers,
    We have claims from characters witnessing these powers,
    We have claims from characters measuring these powers,
    We have simple calcs using Distance/Time,
    We have visual evidence,
    We have statements from the Authors themselves, at least half of which are factual and have no chance of being Hyperbole.

    ^ and we have multiple scans of all of the above btw.

    What other evidence can we possibly provide?
    Better yet, what other evidence are we REQUIRED to provide to prove our points according to BankGambling rules? Like 10% of what i did?
    Satisfying you isn’t the goal to a BankGambling debate. Regardless of how much you’d like to think it is.

    Point being, this is a common occurance in a universe where other things such as:
    Time Travel,
    Pocket Universes,
    Alternate Dimensions,
    Teleportation
    Physical Embodiments of Concepts,
    Reality Warpers,
    Magic,
    Living Energies,
    Multiverses Megaverses & Omniverses (and beings able to hold all of those in their hands),
    are just as common.

    So no Malenfant, Occams Razor is by no means on your side. Not in the slightest. Not even a shred of it supports you.

  91. Ragnorke May 10, 2015 at 9:19 am -      #91

    For the record, humans ONLY know the effects of relativistic movement speeds.
    Which include things like:
    increasing mass, and stretching of time.

    But humans still have NO idea what would occur at light speed itself, let alone FTL speeds.
    Because as far as our calculations take us, it simply isn’t possible.
    And our known calculations are simply theories, and are far from perfect.

    The thing is, both Marvel & DC writers acknowledge the effects of relativistic movement speeds:
    Superman says his mass increases as he approaches the speed of light.
    Flash says his mass increases as he approaches the speed of light.
    Mr Majestic says his mass increases as he approaches the speed of light.

    But the effects of Speed of Light itself and FTL is still unknown.
    Therefor, Marvel & DC technically aren’t “breaking” our laws or heavily contradicting them.
    They’re just telling us that this is how it is in their universes.

    Some other things are just a result of Art Work,
    And most importantly you need to realize that Marvel and DC do NOT pretend to be grounded by real life physics. They know they’re not, and they have already acknowledged it.

    If you continue the debate after this, you’ll simply be continuing because you’re afraid of admitting you were wrong.

  92. Malenfant May 10, 2015 at 10:01 am -      #92

    “Well, we could. But that’s a paradox. What you’re proposing is “Characters in Marvel travel FTL. Character in Marvel cannot travel FTL.””

    No, I’m proposing “Characters in Marvel cannot travel FTL.” Because the former was contradicted by the evidence, giving rise to the latter.

    “True. But “At least 95% of people agree with me” is as close as you can get to “This absolutely true” in a subjective debate.”

    No. It’s the closest you can get to “this select group of fanboys thinks this is absolutely true”. Don’t try and use the number of people involved in a debate for anything, period.

    “1) No it doesn’t. It shows Flash using his speed to do an Infinite Mass Punch; which I said he does.”

    He actually states he has the mass of a white dwarf. Unless “Infinite Mass Punch” is the name of one of his attacks.

    “2) The Speed Force lets him ignore the “atomize the planet and shoot into space” part of going at relativistic speeds.”

    So how do I fucking know this? No, you need to provide a source that says the Speed Force can do shit like this. The simple fact that “it doesn’t happen” will only lead me to believe that it’s not FTL.

    “This doesn’t contradict what Flash did at all. He went at a significant fraction of lightspeed, which gave his fist an enormous mass.”

    The scan said he was “at lightspeed” already.

    “And you’re failing to realize that no fiction is ever perfectly in line with our science.
    Powers & Super Natural feats by their very definition are against our science.”

    The status of any other fictions right now is irrelevant. I could disagree with your claim here, but it’s irrelevant to comics, which is what we’re actually discussing.

    “We debate characters they way THEIR writers intended them to be.”

    And consequentially, your debating characters whose ‘FTL’ was never given any thought because these people were not fucking made for debates. They were made for entertainment.

    “Not in DC apparently.”

    Then why should I believe that light-speed even has the same meaning in DC? This is a tiny bit of a hole in your theory.

    “If you actually bothered to read the dialogue, the Author says that he leaves his Earthly perceptions & concepts behind him.
    It’s the Authors direct way of saying the fictional universe is in fact fucking FICTIONAL, and its laws are DIFFERENT.”

    Or: it’s really the authors method of WRITING. You seem to keep forgetting that the narrator isn’t there for delivering facts, but rather to entertain the reader. And what the hell does “leaving behind earthly perceptions” have to do with anything? Or even mean.

    “How is that Hyperbolic?
    The Author says “Superman only works this hard when he’s about to pass the speed of light. but he doesn’t need to go that fast this time”
    It’s using past tense. The author is directly saying: Superman HAS passed the speed of light in the past, but he doesn’t need to right now.”

    But we see no such signs of it. Like I said: if nothing but a sentence or two even indicates light-speed is being broken, then why call it light-speed. What determines which is which?

    “Oh i don’t know. Being able to talk, and having your brain process faster than the speed of light…
    That still directly means part of your body is moving at FTL speeds to function.
    But obviously since you had no real rebuttal, you just shrug it off as irrelevant.”

    I don’t need a rebuttal because we’re talking about physically moving at FTL speeds. You’re exaggerating the importance of this.

    “That’s because it’s realistically possible to hear flys in the other end of the room. Specially if the building has a certain echo to it.”

    YOU ARE ACTUALLY FUCKING DEFENDING LITERARY HYPERBOLE BEING SOMETHING POSSIBLE FOR X MUNDANE CHARACTERS. WHAT THE FUCK.

    “But here, the Author specifically states: Superman can race a speeding photon its target.
    Why would an Author say “X can race a speeding train!” if X can’t race a speeding train?”

    For the same reason an author would say my earlier example: dramatic effect.

    “I do like how you ignored the other ELEVEN scans of relativistic or FTL movements.”

    You mean the two I looked it which furthermore contradicted your argument. FYI: dumping shit like that over the thread just clogs things up at best, and at worst (like it has) it’ll create more holes in your argument. The same goes for the newer things you posted. But here, I’ll take a look at some of your scans:

    “Silver Surfer travels the universe in a matter of moments, and the Author SAYS he was moving at a speed that defies description in human terms
    i.imgur.com/GVQZF3J.jpg”

    This is fucking nonsense. A speed that defies description in human terms equates to a speed MUCH higher than travelling the universe in a matter of moments. Any two-bit mathematician or physicist can define that speed. Ergo what the hell does that even mean?

    “Also, Marvel is a universe where shit like this happens:
    i.imgur.com/AGvQEvO.jpg
    Yet Malenfant is still bitching about how FTL travel “shouldn’t” be possible.”

    “Quantum layers”
    “Energetic patterns”
    “Eternalism”
    Yes, Marvel is a universe where meaningless shit is strung together.

    “Thor creates winds in space to move his ship FTL.
    i.imgur.com/nbukMve.jpg
    Author specifically says: “Faster than the speed of light or all known laws of man”

    The next line makes it seem pretty fucking similar to hyperbole. And “faster than all known laws of man”?

    “Just to re-post this, Thor was moving at double the speed of light.
    static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11119/111195459/4335217-3440599548-35237.jpg
    To which Malenfant countered by saying he THINKS it’s Hyperbole.”

    You keep seem to forgetting that the text is only part of the argument. There’s another half that you have completely failed to respond to.

    “I have a feeling Malenfant didn’t expect things like FTL to be as common as they really are. He probably expected it to be an outlier, which contradicted physics, and thus called it out for being Bullshit or misinterpreted.”

    So you’re saying it doesn’t or does contradict physics? Because in lieu of everything posted it clearly fucking does. How common it is isn’t a factor here. I have no idea where you got the impression it was.

    “Both Marvel & DC Authors have already mentioned how these powers don’t make sense to human science.”

    Ergo we either can’t make sense of them… or we go with the painfully obvious explanations.

    “Point being, this is a common occurance in a universe where other things such as:
    Time Travel,
    Pocket Universes,
    Alternate Dimensions,
    Teleportation
    Physical Embodiments of Concepts,
    Reality Warpers,
    Magic,
    Living Energies,
    Multiverses Megaverses & Omniverses (and beings able to hold all of those in their hands),
    are just as common.”

    Half of these things don’t even exist. “Megaverse”
    “Omniverse” “Reality Warper” “Living Embodiment of Concepts” etc etc. These are undefined names. The fact that such nonsense is a common occurence in Marvel does not reinforce that Marvel has a consistent paradigm of light-speed travel at all.

  93. Karen Starr May 10, 2015 at 11:39 am -      #93

    I… just wow, seriously?

  94. Epicazeroth May 10, 2015 at 11:55 am -      #94

    @Lowk: “Like Ironman and his rocket skates.”
    Excuse me. Transistor-powered roller wheels.
    ===
    @Rag: “But humans still have NO idea what would occur at light speed itself, let alone FTL speeds.”
    For now. Did you hear about how NASA might possibly have measured a warp field (or not)?
    ===
    @Mal: “No. It’s the closest you can get to “this select group of fanboys thinks this is absolutely true”.”
    Ah, ad hominems. I was wondering when those would show up. You cannot possibly seriously claim that everyone who disagrees with you – that is, everyone else involved in this debate – is a “fanboy”.

    “Unless “Infinite Mass Punch” is the name of one of his attacks.”
    It is. The actual mass varies, but it’s usually described as “white dwarf” or “infinite”.

    “So how do I fucking know this?”
    If you knew anything – anything at all – about the Speed Force, you would know this. That is literally the reason they came up with the Speed Force. But here. Since I know you’ll disagree with a wiki:
    www.comicvine.com/speed-force/4015-42071/

    “Then why should I believe that light-speed even has the same meaning in DC?”
    1) Like Reality Unless Noted. It hasn’t been noted.
    2) You don’t have to. You can go off and believe whatever you want. But if you want to participate in a debate, you have to either be willing to accept the established consensus or be able to convince people to believe your interpretation.
    3) If neither of those are preferable to you, then you can leave. If you’re not willing to change in spite of literally everyone disagreeing with you, go somewhere else.

    “YOU ARE ACTUALLY FUCKING DEFENDING LITERARY HYPERBOLE BEING SOMETHING POSSIBLE FOR X MUNDANE CHARACTERS. WHAT THE FUCK.”
    You actually don’t know what hyperbole means, because not every figure of speech is “HYPERBOLE”. What the fuck?

    “For the same reason an author would say my earlier example: dramatic effect.”
    You can’t claim everything you don’t like is dramatic effect. The most simple solution is that the writer knows exactly what they’re saying, and mean it. Just because something is written in a work of fiction doesn’t mean it’s for “dramatic effect”.

    “Yes, Marvel is a universe where meaningless shit is strung together.”
    *sigh* It doesn’t fucking matter at all whether or not it’s meaningless. It still happened.

    “There’s another half that you have completely failed to respond to.”
    Translation: There’s another half that you responded to but I have subsequently ignored.

    “Ergo we either can’t make sense of them…”
    Absolutely false. Just because something is different from our understanding of the universe doesn’t mean it can’t be understood. That is literally how science evolves: We find something that’s different or unexplainable from our current viewpoint, and we modify our understanding so that it can be understood and explained. Hell, that’s how all knowledge evolves.

    “Half of these things don’t even exist.”
    In real life. As far as you know. They may or may not actually exist in our reality, but they are very, very easily understood.

  95. pimpmage May 10, 2015 at 12:00 pm -      #95

    So what has Lucifer done to show off his manipulation powers? The limit of not being able to create something from nothing seems like the largest part of being all powerful. Like 99% would be creation ability. Energy is required to do ANYTHING. Including manipulating stuff. I’m pretty confused about why people think he is strong with such an important inability.

  96. pimpmage May 10, 2015 at 12:03 pm -      #96

    I just want to say.. I fucking love each and every one of you guys. The attention to detail and deep discussions, along with rigid rules and proper formatting make this site an amazing place to visit everyday.

  97. Ragnorke May 10, 2015 at 12:06 pm -      #97

    Okay, just to clear things up Facts,
    ————————————————————
    Malenfant wants you to assume:

    1. The scale of measurements in Marvel & DC is different than our own.
    Meaning the average size of Galaxies, Solar Systems, etc…
    (despite them still sharing the names and appearances of our real life Solar system and Galaxy)
    He has no actual evidence for this. He just wants you to assume it.

    Because i’v posted several scans of characters flying across Solar Systems & Galaxies,
    And this assumption is Malenfants only Rebuttal.

    2. The scale of time in Marvel & DC is different than our own.
    Meaning the length of a Second, Microsecond, Nanosecond, etc…
    (Despite most characters still talking & walking in a time scale which perfectly resembles our own)
    Once again, he has no actual evidence for this, he just wants you to assume it.

    Because i’v posted several scans of characters moving and taking actions in Nanoseconds,
    And this assumption is Malenfants only Rebuttal.

    3. The speed of light in Marvel & DC is different than our own,
    Meaning it isn’t actually 299,792,458 m/s,
    (Despite 99.9999% of things still appearing and functioning perfectly the same)
    Of course, he still has no evidence, and just wants you to assume it.

    Because i’v posted over a dozen statements from characters and AUTHORS that characters frequently move faster than the speed of light,
    And this assumption is Malenfants only Rebuttal.

    Now you need to assume ALL THREE of these things simultaneously, in order to even start debunking the scans which appear to be crystal clear.

    He wants you to assume all these things because Faster Than Light movement is illogical.
    (Keep in mind that in real life FTL being impossible is a THEORY and not a Fact. We actually have no idea what would occur at lightspeed and beyond.)
    ————————————————————
    I on the other hand, ask you to read through the 30 or so scans that i’v posted, and assume:

    1. That the characters & the AUTHORS weren’t lying when they said time and time and time and time and time and time and time and again, that certain characters move Faster than Light.

    I’v literally provided every form of evidence that could possibly exist:
    We have claims from the characters using the powers, We have claims from characters witnessing these powers, We have claims from characters measuring these powers, We have simple calcs using Distance/Time, We have visual evidence, and We have statements from the Authors themselves, at least half of which are factual and have no chance of being Hyperbole.

    According to these comics, the side-effects of relativity simply wear off for the most part once the speed of Light is surpassed.
    (In real life this isn’t true or untrue, in reality we don’t have the slightest clue what would happen)
    ————————————————————
    For those of you who don’t know, “Occams Razor” is a debating term that states the Theory requiring the least amount of assumptions is the correct one.
    It’s almost laughable how Malenfant thinks it is supporting his argument in any way.

    Occams Razor need not even be mentioned, because a newborn chipmunk would have the common sense to know which is more reasonable.
    ————————————————————
    Also, take note of how Malenfant was uwilling (or unable) to counter every scan.

    And the ones he did counter, his arguments were nothing more than: “Hyperbole”, “This makes no sense”, “This is bullshit”, “This is fucking nonsense”
    ————————————————————
    So tell me Facts, what are your thoughts?
    If you too are convinced Malenfant is a troll, say Aye!

    *waits for Malenfant to bitch at me for using an “appeal to popularity” *

  98. pimpmage May 10, 2015 at 12:09 pm -      #98

    Could you give a nonbiased summary of both sides of the argument? Pretty please? I don’t think too many people were able to follow along to that side debate.

  99. Commander Cross May 10, 2015 at 12:12 pm -      #99

    Space Pirate Ryoko(Tenchi Muyo) vs Nappa is a thing on this site actually.

    @Ragnorke at #97

    I personally say Nay/Neigh, mostly because this site has better ‘fish’ to fry for all I’d care.

    @Pimpmage at #98

    Simple, either None of us in this thread are Trolls or quite frankly all of us are Trolls, that’s as Dumbed Down as I can get it to be, really.

    Which if the latter is true, then there is more self-disgust ahead of me especially, and if the former is true, then a lot of us got banned for nada except for the King of Fishers or DRAGON, really.

    That’s as unbiased as I can get it to be.

  100. Nsl98 May 10, 2015 at 12:22 pm -      #100

    If you too are convinced Malenfant is a troll, say Aye!

    Aye.

    @Mal
    Seriously, characters being FTL/physics breaking and stuff has been common knowledge for years now, and not just on this site.

    Just accept it bro, you can’t change authorial statements and try to tell them they’re wrong.

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