Vampires Vs Symbiotes

Vampires Vs Symbiotes

Suggested by Rookie

Kars, first time here in his ultimate form (JoJo) and Kain (Legacy of Kain) will go up against Venom and Carnage from Marvel.

Kain is Pre-merging with Raziel, but with all his other upgrades.

Who will win?

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264 Comments on "Vampires Vs Symbiotes"

  1. Amm0vamp1r3 April 24, 2015 at 12:04 am -      #1

    I had a debate like this in the topia but I never suggested it because it never figured it out. Good on you rookie

    Kain has been showing up a lot lately. Not a bad thing though I love Kain

    Also, Vampires

  2. Limbo Lowk April 24, 2015 at 12:18 am -      #2

    Fairly certain you need some high level energy, sonic, or heat attacks to kill carnage for good. Those guys will just not die.
    Venom isn’t as ridiculous but you need to do some serious damage to take him out.

  3. Amm0vamp1r3 April 24, 2015 at 12:24 am -      #3

    Kars is shown to be immortal as well. It took the protagonist tricking him into being launched into space to get rid of him.

  4. Amm0vamp1r3 April 24, 2015 at 12:35 am -      #4

    He can shape shift his body into various creatures

    m.youtube.com/watch?v=G2VbdbSrB1I

    Also has no weakness to sunlight

    m.youtube.com/watch?v=ULhuewfzw04

  5. AbsoluteZero April 24, 2015 at 12:36 am -      #5

    The amount of Kain on this site at the moment is starting to make me think I really should go back and finish Defiance. I did love the voice acting.

  6. Rookie April 24, 2015 at 2:52 am -      #6

    Some official stats for Kars:

    static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11115/111151927/3941124-cars+1.png

  7. Rookie April 24, 2015 at 3:09 am -      #7

    Kars vs Rudol von Stroheim:

  8. Ragnorke April 24, 2015 at 6:05 am -      #8

    Are the vampires bullet proof?

    i.imgur.com/voUZQo6.png
    i.imgur.com/zjrlwPL.png

    i.imgur.com/KCVz1XV.png

    i.imgur.com/lVBinex.png

    static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11118/111188754/4323790-3335912698-eVZa0.jpg

  9. Ragnorke April 24, 2015 at 6:06 am -      #9

    static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11118/111188754/4323788-3815654329-7drfY.jpg
    static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11118/111188754/4323789-6719371072-P4S9B.jpg

    static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11118/111188754/4323792-9672432181-C7gPm.jpg

  10. Kitten Lord April 24, 2015 at 6:45 am -      #10

    @Rag

    “Are the vampires bullet proof?”

    One of them is at least starship broadside proof……guess who?

    As for the match, comic book characters? I am just going to wait until the planet busting shows up. I know their spider man villains right? so surely their not too tough?

    How would the two symbiotes take to over 150 tons of force suddenly blasting them in the throat out of nowhere? Or tearing their blood out (do they have blood still or anything like it?), also do they have souls, do they have minds that can be controlled and if they do not have souls do they have methods of resisting soul attacks anyway?

    Since he can get blown to bits almost by a bazooka the vamps probably would not have much effort cutting them into bits and the regen seems to take “time” based on the first scans.

    Problem I see for the symbiotes is they have no soul attacks, vampires are immortal so unless you can get rid of their souls just hitting them will only do you so good.

  11. Ragnorke April 24, 2015 at 9:02 am -      #11

    “One of them is at least starship broadside proof……guess who?”

    I’m… Not sure what that means

    “As for the match, comic book characters? I am just going to wait until the planet busting shows up.”

    Well Venom fought Savage Hulk, who’s mountain busting at a bare minimum.
    He also fought Red Hulk, The Thing, and a few other Earth Tier heavy hitters.

    “I know their spider man villains right? so surely their not too tough?”

    Spiderman’s a lot tougher than people give him credit for,
    And Venom & Carnage are physically superior in every regard.
    Venom even has a Spidey Sense pre-cog, which lets them dodge light speed attacks.
    Don’t think Carnage has it though.

    “How would the two symbiotes take to over 150 tons of force suddenly blasting them in the throat out of nowhere?”

    They lift things like Tanks & Helicopters VERY casually, so 150 tons isn’t out of their league by any means.
    However, if it’s all pressurized into one spot, it’s hard to say.
    They shrug off rocket launchers & Ironman repulsor beams for what it’s worth.

    “Or tearing their blood out (do they have blood still or anything like it?)”

    AFAIK the host can’t “die” regardless of what happens to him, as long as he’s still imbued to the Symbiote.
    Forexample, Sentry once pulled Carnage out of Earths Orbit and ripped him in half.
    But since the Symbiote survived it, the host did too.

    “also do they have souls, do they have minds that can be controlled and if they do not have souls do they have methods of resisting soul attacks anyway?”

    Venom has the infamous “lol no” to Ghost Riders Penance Stare (which is a soul based attack), which has worked on god like beings such as Mephisto.
    In fact simply attempting it knocked Ghost Rider out.

    “Since he can get blown to bits almost by a bazooka the vamps probably would not have much effort cutting them into bits and the regen seems to take “time” based on the first scans.”

    In the more recent scan he tanked 2 jet missiles without budging.
    But yea, the Symbiote generally splatters around and regens.

    Symbiots can turn invisible too!
    Venom uses it fairly regularly. Not really in Carnages personality though.

  12. Ragnorke April 24, 2015 at 9:11 am -      #12

    He speedblitzed Spidey, who’s around Mach 1.5- Mach 2.
    static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/9/96884/2297935-1448365_venom_speedblitz_.jpg

    Also, Precognition doesn’t work on Symbiotes, meaning it’s impossible to predict their attacks.

    Symbiots can Mind fuck you:
    static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/9/96884/2297929-1067137_you_ve_got_to_take_it_all_.jpg

    Claim that Symbiotes only die by choice, which so far is a pretty well supported claim.
    static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/9/96884/2302160-_________________.jpg

    Gets hit by a bus, which i think was moving at 100 mph (that’s over 150 newton tons i believe)
    static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/9/96884/2301937-venomcarnageunleashed002199em.jpg

  13. Ragnorke April 24, 2015 at 9:15 am -      #13

    For the power scaling:

    Vs Juggs
    static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/8/89577/2014426-1464749_taking_hits_from_juggernaut_3.jpg
    static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/8/89577/2014424-1464750_taking_hits_from_juggernaut.jpg

    Vs Thing
    static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/9/96884/1824104-venom_scan_31.gif

    Vs Hulk
    static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/9/96884/1824016-venom5ov2qs0.jpg
    static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/9/96884/1824008-venom2rd7ru1.jpg

    Can’t find the Red Hulk scans right now, but it was the new Agent Venom, and he was using some of his guns i think

  14. Ragnorke April 24, 2015 at 9:21 am -      #14

    img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20140303041634/deadliestfiction/images/7/77/Agent_Venom_GUNZ.png
    This is the Venom in the match. He has plasma guns that melt through cobble stone and what not, but i’m struggling to find good feats.

    img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20150127130021/marveldatabase/images/b/bd/Agent_Venom.png
    He supposedly got an amp after the Planet Venom story arc, which i never read,

  15. Limbo Lowk April 24, 2015 at 2:49 pm -      #15

    “He supposedly got an amp after the Planet Venom story arc”

    His species fixed venom and that gives the host full knowledge and access to every ability his symbiote is capable of. Thats mostly it so far. Gotg has goven a lot of time.
    He his pretty much bonded in a can’t really tell where either ends or begins way so thiers that.

  16. Ordo11 April 24, 2015 at 4:01 pm -      #16

    so if I am following this right, this is either a draw or the symbionts win because they can basically lol no all the vamps attacks but they can hurt them, but not necessarily kill them though…

    Anyway, does anyone in this know about MC, because I think I might have a fair match for him.

  17. CH1C4N0444 is allergic to bullets April 24, 2015 at 4:09 pm -      #17

    @Ordo Yes, but my overall Halo knowledge is a bit rusty and very much outdated.

  18. Friendlysociopath April 24, 2015 at 4:27 pm -      #18

    Anyway, does anyone in this know about MC, because I think I might have a fair match for him.

    Eh, MC stats in a nutshell:
    *Bullet timer
    *Punches through concrete without an issue
    Shields can tank Hunter missiles that can vaporize people
    Crack shot, doesn’t miss very much
    Expert strategist; has studied historical battles
    * = When he had just first been given armor and should be better now

  19. Kitten Lord April 24, 2015 at 5:10 pm -      #19

    @ragnorke

    “I’m… Not sure what that means”

    Its just an exaggerated way of saying fireing bullets at Kain would be like throwing grains of sand at the gates of a fortress.

    “Venom even has a Spidey Sense pre-cog, which lets them dodge light speed attacks.”

    Ill have to see this one. I take it hes “never” been hit then?

    “However, if it’s all pressurized into one spot, it’s hard to say.
    They shrug off rocket launchers & Ironman repulsor beams for what it’s worth.”

    Aye, around their throats it would be, all in one place. Being able to lift tanks is one thing (tanks are only 60 tons give or take) is irrelevant to what you can take on your throat or in your body.

    “Venom has the infamous “lol no” to Ghost Riders Penance Stare (which is a soul based attack), which has worked on god like beings such as Mephisto.
    In fact simply attempting it knocked Ghost Rider out.”

    I think penance stare is mechanically very different to having your soul actually devoured by a sword though, I do not read comics but based on the films it judges you based on your sins or something?

    “He speedblitzed Spidey, who’s around Mach 1.5- Mach 2.”

    If he gives kain a split second it could be trouble though. Problem is, if their just going to try and lunge at him their going to have problems.


    “Vs Juggs”

    Looks like hes just having the crap pounded out of him, useful though because it seems force just enough to snap a wooden mallet (a large one sure, but wood) can knock him down.

    From what I have seen so far the vamps shouldnt be too overpowered. If anything the symbiotes may not be able to do much damage to Kain at least. And Kain has no sold mind rape without effort or even trying at his weakest.

  20. Ragnorke April 24, 2015 at 5:22 pm -      #20

    “Ill have to see this one. I take it hes “never” been hit then?”

    PiS happens, same way Flash & Superman have been hit, despite them actually having trillions of times FTL reaction times.
    Venom just has a precog sense. Not nearly as good as FTL RT.

    It’ll take me a few hours to find all the relevant scans to support this point though.

    “Aye, around their throats it would be, all in one place.”

    The thing is, it still wouldn’t kill them.
    Considering Carnage survived being ripped in half by Sentry (highest tier planet buster in Marvel AFAIK)

    ” I do not read comics but based on the films it judges you based on your sins or something?”

    Yea, but venom has plenty of sins.
    The reason it didn’t work isn’t because of the mechanics of the Penance Stare, but rather because of the nature of the Symbiotes Soul.

    “If he gives kain a split second it could be trouble though. Problem is, if their just going to try and lunge at him their going to have problems.”

    Why so?

    “Looks like hes just having the crap pounded out of him, useful though because it seems force just enough to snap a wooden mallet”

    Just because the wooden mallet was snapped, doesn’t mean that was the extent of the force.
    It just means that was the minimum force.
    And from Juggs feats, we know he’s far stronger than just that.

  21. Kitten Lord April 24, 2015 at 5:31 pm -      #21

    @Rag

    “The thing is, it still wouldn’t kill them.”

    ime relying on the eventualy pummeling into juice then soul raping them on killing them. Kain does have that immolate incineration to burn as well but theres no know how hot it is, enough to roast almost anyone in his game to death but not sure about these goons.

    “Why so?”

    Because Kain just gets deadlier the longer you give him, a split second is enough for him to teleport away, maybe several times. Which leads to him potentially “stacking” his powers like his barrier, slow time and other things I am probably forgetting.

    “Just because the wooden mallet was snapped, doesn’t mean that was the extent of the force.”

    No but since it was not turned into splinters, it snapped about the same as if a very large man clubbed another man.

    “And from Juggs feats, we know he’s far stronger than just that.”

    Perhaps but not that he used all his strength or speed in that scan.

    As a side note, if Kain just froze the min time would that count for a win or do the vampires actually have to kill the symbiotes? this may be, assuming they are literally immune to soul rape an unwinnable thread for both.

    I take it symbiotes and their hosts are “immortal”? like, can the host live a long time?

    “Yea, but venom has plenty of sins.
    The reason it didn’t work isn’t because of the mechanics of the Penance Stare, but rather because of the nature of the Symbiotes Soul.”

    Maybe he cannot discern between venom and the symbiote itself, or maybe theres something that stops the penance stare from working, not soul devouring itself. Are there many more feats for soul rape and do you mind finding me all the scans, including the penance stare one concerning it?

    As far as Kain is concerned soul rape is the only way if cutting them into ever smaller piecies does not work.

  22. Nsl98 April 24, 2015 at 5:57 pm -      #22

    Venom’s Penance Stare resistance:
    static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/12/123441/3210652-dk+gr+feat+ps+venom.jpg

  23. Kitten Lord April 24, 2015 at 6:50 pm -      #23

    Ah I see, seems specific to the penance stare itself rather than being souless/immune to soul rape.

  24. Ragnorke April 24, 2015 at 7:26 pm -      #24

    “Ah I see, seems specific to the penance stare itself rather than being souless/immune to soul rape.”

    False.
    Penance Stare is stated word to word as burning the SOUL.
    It’s worked on solar busting beings, galaxy busting beings… If it has a soul, it works.

    This is the only instance in Ghost Riders history where it didn’t work, and Ghost Rider specifically says it’s because the alien is reacting in an unknown manner.

    That means the Symbiote doesn’t have a soul, or the Symbiote has a resistance/counter to soul attacks.

    I see no reason to think it’s specific to the Penance Stare.
    The Penance Stare itself just determines how much damage is dealt, the effect of the damage is still Soul Fuckery.
    And the Soul Fuckery damage is still elementally compatible to any other Soul Fuckery damage.

    Which the symbiote would still react to in an “unknown” manner.

  25. Alpha or Omega April 24, 2015 at 9:37 pm -      #25

    @Kitten Lord
    “I take it symbiotes and their hosts are “immortal”? like, can the host live a long time?”
    /
    I’m not sure about longevity.
    But, symbiotes have the ability to pseudo-revive a host by carrying the host with them in their bodies.
    If you separate the host, kill the host, the symbiote carries the “host” in them and can revive the body.
    /
    @Ragnorke.
    “He speedblitzed Spidey, who’s around Mach 1.5- Mach 2.”
    /
    He took him by surprise. Nevermind that Spidey sense doesn’t work against Venom
    www.comics101.com/guestlecturer//news/Guest%20Lecturer/56/Venom%202.JPG
    /
    “Gets hit by a bus, which i think was moving at 100 mph (that’s over 150 newton tons i believe)”
    /
    IIRC, in that comic, that was a train.
    Also, I want to point out that the car Carnage and Venom were on was going towards the 100 mph train, so it would be more than 150 tons

  26. Kitten Lord April 25, 2015 at 5:55 am -      #26

    @Ragnorke

    “False.
    Penance Stare is stated word to word as burning the SOUL.
    It’s worked on solar busting beings, galaxy busting beings… If it has a soul, it works”

    Burning the soul is not the same as ripping the soul out and devouring it, their very different attacks with the only similarity as being that their target is the soul. You would have to give me more examples of what “burning the soul” means and even then, that would not change the fact that it sitll works by judging it based on sins which clearly, for some reason related to marvel as Ghost rider said does not work on symbiotes.

    “I see no reason to think it’s specific to the Penance Stare.”

    Theres only one account of this happeing so far in this thread and that “is” the penance stare, which means its certainly possible without further evidence its specific to the penance stare since it has only happened with the penance stare.

    “That means the Symbiote doesn’t have a soul, or the Symbiote has a resistance/counter to soul attacks.”

    Has ghost rider tried to do penance stare on souless beings before? Have they reacted in the same way? as for resistance/counter, not necessarily, like I said, based on this one count of a speciifc move from marvel it reacted “unknown”, it may not have any resistances for its soul at all.

    “And the Soul Fuckery damage”

    The reaver does not do “damage” to the soul, it rips it out and gobbles it up.

    “Which the symbiote would still react to in an “unknown” manner.”

    only if it works even remotely like the penance stare. Based on the scan alone we do not know if its because it has anything to do with its soul.

    The soul reaver is not complicated, not as much as the stare. it gives no fucks about your souls quality, alignment or what/who you are. Its just damn hungry and chows that thing down. The penance stare also seems to fire flames from ghost riders eyes into those of the one hes judging? This may all take time, wheras the reaver is just “hit foe”, “soul non nom nom” before the symbiote has any idea whats happening.

    @Alpha

    “I’m not sure about longevity.
    But, symbiotes have the ability to pseudo-revive a host by carrying the host with them in their bodies.
    If you separate the host, kill the host, the symbiote carries the “host” in them and can revive the body.”

    So if the host died of old age, the symbiote could “revive” the host? but he would still be an old man?

  27. Limbo Lowk April 25, 2015 at 6:20 am -      #27

    About the soul thing. You could probably take the host soul but that’d just leave the symbiote with a meat puppet.
    ===
    “Theres only one account of this happeing so far in this thread”

    They reconfirmed it could shrug it off.
    static.comicvine.com/uploads/ignore_jpg_scale_super/11112/111125918/4178935-flashvsgr.jpg
    static.comicvine.com/uploads/ignore_jpg_scale_super/11112/111125918/4178936-flashvsgr2.jpg
    Also somehow it spit out a mark on it’s host soul. I don’t know how but it happened an alien parasite has the ability to interact with a soul but it apparently does and does it to protect its host.

  28. Kitten Lord April 25, 2015 at 6:35 am -      #28

    The scan is hard to discern for me, it looks like old bone head is lieing on the ground moaning about how theres “too much” sin or something?

    What does penance stare actually do to souls?

    my two cents is that if in the event venom/carnage cannot be soul raped in any fashion, either having their souls devoured or whatever then they seem to be able to reform from anything, even cut into piecies correct?

    So what has defeated them?

  29. Limbo Lowk April 25, 2015 at 6:46 am -      #29

    “The scan is hard to discern for me, it looks like old bone head is lieing on the ground moaning about how theres “too much” sin or something?”

    He tried to pence stare him. Venom laughed it off.
    ===
    “What does penance stare actually do to souls?”

    I think it’s something like attacking your soul with sins and the pain you’ve done to other
    ===
    “So what has defeated them?”

    Sonic attacks are the most effective weapon against them. To a lesser extent fire but they can power through fire with a bit of effort.

  30. Kitten Lord April 25, 2015 at 6:52 am -      #30

    Well in the case of soul devouring not being an end to them, the ball is in Kars’ court, if he has some good fire/sonic attacks then the vamps can win. If not, nobody wins unless I see some more impressive attacks from venom/carnage. It would just end up being a case of kain/Kars splattering the two for hundreds of years until the symbiotes host is an old man, barely able to stand or something…..

    Mind showing me scans of the sort of sonic attacks that may be effective?

  31. Aelfinn April 25, 2015 at 1:52 pm -      #31

    Wait, Kitten Lord, are you still using the whole “Raziel’s claws have insane pressure” argument? (I know I should have argued harder against it). Yeah, thinking about it, I realized that if Raziel had actually applied the force required in those calcs, the object would have gone flying across the room.
    =
    =
    Anyway, I’m pretty sure Kars has something like, Wolverine-level healing, not to mention the hypest sound track:
    www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUhVCoTsBaM

    But anyway, the previous video that showed Kars cutting all those bullets in half showed that he can react to bullets that should be over Mach 2, so that’s handy. He can also survive impacts from rocks moving at escape velocity (which, btw, is Mach 32) without his skin being penetrated/damaged, with the narration implying he could have avoided them if he wasn’t distracted .

  32. Rookie April 25, 2015 at 2:03 pm -      #32

    @Aelfinn

    “But anyway, the previous video that showed Kars cutting all those bullets in half showed that he can react to bullets that should be over Mach 2, so that’s handy. He can also survive impacts from rocks moving at escape velocity (which, btw, is Mach 32) without his skin being penetrated/damaged, with the narration implying he could have avoided them if he wasn’t distracted .”

    Kars actually managed to dodge light from point blank, before light could pierce his brain, prior to his transformation into ultimate being:

    i1290.photobucket.com/albums/b540/Rookie122/Jojo%201_zps2udszgqt.png
    i1290.photobucket.com/albums/b540/Rookie122/jjba%202_zpsyqjjvkn5.png
    i1290.photobucket.com/albums/b540/Rookie122/jjba%203_zpsjemcbmnb.png
    And Kars blade is actually a chainsaw blade:
    i1290.photobucket.com/albums/b540/Rookie122/jjba%204_zpsnsbcouiy.png

  33. Amm0vamp1r3 April 25, 2015 at 2:08 pm -      #33

    The thing about Kain being some superman tier person (durability wise) doesn’t make sense to me because it’s setting breaking but I did read something recently that made me think

    Theres no such thing as “sensible calcs”, theres only “the calcs that fit my particular image of what the franchise should look like”.

    I personally don’t see Kain as superman tier durable. I don’t see him as fast, and I don’t see him as too strong which is why me and KL bump heads Often when it comes to Kain and his abilities

  34. Friendlysociopath April 25, 2015 at 2:16 pm -      #34

    I mean, calcs will 9/10 times end up in a result that the developers would never have thought up in their wildest dreams because the feats simply weren’t given enough thought for them to be used in that fashion.

    Prime example: that Metroid Guy.

  35. Alpha or Omega April 25, 2015 at 3:30 pm -      #35

    @KittenLord
    “So if the host died of old age, the symbiote could “revive” the host? but he would still be an old man?”
    /
    Answer is unknown, but treat it like he would die of old age. The symbiote would live on though.
    If it ever came to old age, it would possibly find a new host.
    /
    @FriendlySocipath
    “Prime example: that Metroid Guy.”
    /
    Nice meme there bud.
    However, the only Metroid related thing that was calculated was Zebes gravity(which I don’t use) and the power bomb that already has backings of being a nuke.
    /
    There are things that support the powerbomb besides the calc; it’s able to shake the entire BSL station, be referred to as an apocalyptic weapon, does damage comparable to the omega cannon(which is a stated nuke), instant vaporize massive creatures, and creates a vacuum that nukes make.
    The Zebes gravity calculation was debunked because there was no facts to support the calculation other than its mass.
    Other stuff in the Metroid universe was stated.

  36. Kitten Lord April 25, 2015 at 3:33 pm -      #36

    @Aeflinn

    ” the object would have gone flying across the room.”

    No more than an orange would go flying across the room as you cut into it. Cutting into something excerts pressure in a small area, its not the same as punching it, the concussive force is not so high.

    Ive got about 4/5 calcs from just as many different people, one of which was not even on this site and was simply asked with no potential bias for or against being present. One of those calcs was from you, I simply got the lowest figuire from that and that is what I am using, not the highest.

    @Ammo

    “doesn’t make sense to me because it’s setting breaking”

    No its not?

    @Friendly

    “I mean, calcs will 9/10 times end up in a result that the developers would never have thought up in their wildest dreams because the feats simply weren’t given enough thought for them to be used in that fashion.”

    This is true for the whole of fiction, most writers of comics, games or w/e are not exactly scientists who have actually performed the experiment for each thing their characters do.

    They just draw Superman punching a planet and it blowing up because its damn cool…..

    Anyway, for the thread. Kain has immolate and possibly lightning for “fire based” attacks, or he could launch both of them through the atmopshere and “apollo 10″ them.

  37. Amm0vamp1r3 April 25, 2015 at 3:36 pm -      #37

    No its not?

    Yes it is?

  38. Kitten Lord April 25, 2015 at 3:47 pm -      #38

    His durability is irrelevant to the setting…..completely….probably why the game itself hardly made much of a big thing about it.

  39. Limbo Lowk April 25, 2015 at 3:59 pm -      #39

    “His durability is irrelevant to the setting…..completely….probably why the game itself hardly made much of a big thing about it.”

    It would’ve made healing pretty much pointless considering he has to fight people without a significant amount of super strength who weild things like blades and arrows.

  40. Amm0vamp1r3 April 25, 2015 at 4:02 pm -      #40

    t would’ve made healing pretty much pointless considering he has to fight people without a significant amount of super strength who weild things like blades and arrows.

    Not only this but Raziel can physically hurt Kain, like punch through his chest (bones tendons etc) and rip his heart out yet when he hits a human they don’t splatter all over the place so wouldn’t humans need Superman level durability also?

    Hell wouldn’t anyone who doesn’t automatically die via Raziel hit need super durability? Or is my logic flawed somewhere?

  41. Kitten Lord April 25, 2015 at 4:03 pm -      #41

    Kain is immortal and has a stupid healing factor, so by the canon of the series those people are already pointless. Its just liek God of War and Devil may cry where even basic mooks can deal damage for the sake of game balance.

    The fact that Kain can tank the rest of his fiction at once, Kratos could one hit punch all his foes or Dante could speed blitz everyone is irrelevent to the gameplay mechanics.

    @Ammo

    “Hell wouldn’t anyone who doesn’t automatically die via Raziel hit need super durability? Or is my logic flawed somewhere?”

    Yes your logic is flawed, its the same reason why you do not die in pretty much one shot and bleed out on the floor in like, every first person shooter, or why superhumans do not one shot all their enemies in every video game. You consistently confuse gameplay mechanics with canon in all our arguments mr ammo vamp.

    Because combos are damn fun man….damn fun, I want to hit a human with my sword 20 times so I can charge it up and make things go boom….

  42. Amm0vamp1r3 April 25, 2015 at 4:11 pm -      #42

    Yeah but God of war and Devil May Cry actually have scenes of being damaged by mooks that aren’t gameplay
    Unlike LoK, Kain (elder Kain) only has a few canon feats of being hit.

    And as for
    Kratos could one hit punch all his foes or Dante could speed blitz everyone is irrelevent to the gameplay mechanics.


    They also have reason behind it. Kratos can lift a lot but never is shown hitting hard which makes sense because lifting =\= striking

    And Dante has character scenes of letting himself get hit but when he gets serious he does indeed speed blitz most people.

    That’s the problem with Kain he has very few canon scenes of how he prefers to fight or what powers he would use or how hard you need to hit him to do damage which brings up a lot of “absence of evidence isn’t evidence of absence” ” you can’t disprove it so it has to be factual” type scenarios.

  43. Kitten Lord April 25, 2015 at 4:16 pm -      #43

    @Ammo

    “Unlike LoK, Kain (elder Kain) only has a few canon feats of being hit.”

    Which is what we go by, not the game play stuff.

    “And Dante has character scenes of letting himself get hit but when he gets serious he does indeed speed blitz most people.”

    in-game though hes just like Kain, he just combos people by hitting them 20 times with his sword. A lot of the gameplay stuff concerning how many times anyone is hit, including the payers character is just gameplay garbage, hence why the whole “would break the setting” thing you said earlier is false. Dracula is the same in-game, lords of shadow, all these games have the same sort of gameplay mechanics in common, in reality their protagonist would “walk” through the mooks, punch a hole in the wall and skip all the puzzles at the same time through hax, it would be a boring game basically in every scenario.

    Kain since becoming an Elder is “beyond” that nonsense hence why he does not bother with them in canon unless he has to.

    “That’s the problem with Kain he has very few canon scenes ”

    He has a few really good ones though. The game and its devs base the game around its storyline, not “flashy” bits and bobs.

  44. Amm0vamp1r3 April 25, 2015 at 4:27 pm -      #44

    Which is what we go by, not the game play stuff.


    This is false, I’ve seen people get feats from gameplay. Sonic not being as fast as he should be from gameplay because it was calc’d that way. Samus out running her bombs in gameplay which equates to a speed feat

    hence why the whole “would break the setting” thing you said earlier is false.

    Not false at all it would break the setting for Kain and subsequently everyone else to be superman tier

    since becoming an Elder is “beyond” that nonsense hence why he does not bother with them in canon unless he has to.
    What?

    He has a few really good ones though. The game and its devs base the game around its storyline, not “flashy” bits and bobs.

    i get that most people when they write a story, make a movie or game etc they don’t think “some people will debate this someday so let me make this as scientificly accurate as possible”
    Which is why we see Raziel toppling over a giant rocks, and pushing his nails into rocks and yet not obliterating people with a forceful punch, and not being able to hurt Dumah even though some how humans were able too.

  45. Kitten Lord April 25, 2015 at 4:32 pm -      #45

    @Ammo

    “This is false, I’ve seen people get feats from gameplay.”

    Ok ill change that to “gameplay mechanics”, no one ever uses how much damage characters do to eachother in an action game like DMC to determine power, especially not if a cutscene or higher canon like word of god/manuel contradicts it. Hence why how many hits humans take in the game is irrelevent.

    “subsequently everyone else to be superman tier”

    Kain never hit a human in a cutscene, and the only human Raziel does is impaled on his sword iirc.

    “yet not obliterating people with a forceful punch”

    Ive never seen Raziel punch. He always slices, which do not necessarily obliterate, they get sliced/impaled etc. Do not remember him fighting many humans in the cutscenes though.

    “i get that most people when they write a story, make a movie or game etc they don’t think “some people will debate this someday so let me make this as scientificly accurate as possible””

    Exactly, does not stop people from calculating it though or comparing feats even if its all rubbish, and therefore potentially ungaugable by any rules besides the developers own.

  46. Limbo Lowk April 25, 2015 at 4:33 pm -      #46

    “Kratos could one hit punch all his foes or Dante could speed blitz everyone is irrelevent to the gameplay mechanics.”

    Kratos at least can manhandle some of his enemies and Dante can still fire out hundreds of stabs a second even in game to note their strength or speed.

  47. Amm0vamp1r3 April 25, 2015 at 5:09 pm -      #47

    Aw man my post got eaten. This is why I hate typing on a phone. It was a long one too and I don’t feel like typing it all back up :(

    Well I still have the link I posted in it

  48. Ordo11 April 25, 2015 at 5:45 pm -      #48

    maybe chief might have an even fight from a manticoran marine from the honor Herrington scenes. Marine must use a pulsar.

  49. Friendlysociopath April 25, 2015 at 6:06 pm -      #49

    Nice meme there bud.

    I was absurdly proud of that when I noticed I did it.

    However, the only Metroid related thing that was calculated was Zebes gravity(which I don’t use) and the power bomb that already has backings of being a nuke.

    I was mostly referencing the gravity- seeing as how Samus could simply walk through most people if that were true.
    (Speaking of which, Yamcha manages to not be completely destroyed by 300x Earth gravity and can beat Recoome- I learned something!)

  50. Kitten Lord April 25, 2015 at 6:21 pm -      #50

    @Lowk

    “Kratos at least can manhandle some of his enemies and Dante can still fire out hundreds of stabs a second even in game to note their strength or speed”

    Depending on the enemy I recall some of them man handling him as well if you do not get the button presses right. And you cannot count the stabs per second, if your refering to the “million stabs” combo? Who knows how many he really does, his opponents still take a million stabs in-game and he is still wounded by all the enemies.

    Same with Kratos, even the little humanoids.

    In reality none of them should hurt Kratos, touch Dante etc just like they cannot really do anything to Kain. As long as a single vampire stands they are a legion in Kains words and he is right.

  51. Alpha or Omega April 25, 2015 at 6:22 pm -      #51

    “I was mostly referencing the gravity”
    /
    I didn’t know which calculation you were referring to, so I mentioned the only calculations mentioned recently.
    I do agree with you on the gravity one for Zebes. EnigmaJ mentioned why that calculation is wrong.

  52. Limbo Lowk April 25, 2015 at 7:21 pm -      #52

    “Depending on the enemy I recall some of them man handling him as well if you do not get the button presses right. And you cannot count the stabs per second, if your refering to the “million stabs” combo?”

    Yeah but at least the the strength and speed is referenced by them being able to blitz or rip there enemy’s in half so the element is still there.
    ===
    “still wounded by all the enemies.”

    Not really setting breaking. Dante at least isn’t known for his durability, especially against sharp things. His thing is that he heals. Not to mention his regular days out involve superhuman creatures.

  53. Aelfinn April 25, 2015 at 9:14 pm -      #53

    “No more than an orange would go flying across the room as you cut into it. Cutting into something excerts pressure in a small area, its not the same as punching it, the concussive force is not so high.

    Ive got about 4/5 calcs from just as many different people, one of which was not even on this site and was simply asked with no potential bias for or against being present. One of those calcs was from you, I simply got the lowest figuire from that and that is what I am using, not the highest.”


    And I realized that those calcs not only didn’t make sense in-series, they also didn’t make sense in-scene considering nothing was actually bracing the blocks from moving besides their own weight. Even the force required to puncture it (despite being lessened because of sharp claws), would still be insanely high, and would move it before anything happened.

    That is…if we assume those are solid metal blocks, when we could (and probably should) assume that they are hollow metal boxes. You know….shipping containers. This makes Raziel’s strikes more like high-caliber bullets and less like the center of a planet. It also makes the scene make a lot more sense considering how easily Raziel moves them around. Not to say he isn’t strong, but a solid metal block would weigh quite a few tons, and he can move three of them stacked on top of each other fairly easily, whereas I know he’s struggled with a stone obelisk before (in that he didn’t lift it all the way, and simply tilted it over). Even if you assume the later blocks are stone, which they don’t have to be, a high-caliber round would still chip off enough stone to at least give him a hand-hold.

  54. Kitten Lord April 26, 2015 at 4:29 am -      #54

    @Aeflinn

    “Even the force required to puncture it (despite being lessened because of sharp claws), would still be insanely high, and would move it before anything happened.”

    Why? The force was not extremely high when you take into account their at least in the high end double digit tons in weight. And again, their being cut into, not punched.

    “That is…if we assume those are solid metal blocks, when we could (and probably should) assume that they are hollow metal boxes. You know….shipping containers.”

    First, we assumed their stone initially for a number of reasons, like the fact in most cases hes pulling them out of the wall, and for another old civilizations were more likely to chissel lumps of stone not somehow make boxes, the sound of it also would suggest its solid as it moves across the ground.

    If they were shipping containers you would need to also assume there’s ships of some kind, your dealing with vampires who not only fear water but have never built ships in the series.

    “whereas I know he’s struggled with a stone obelisk before ”

    Stone or iron, either way its many of times the size of even 3 stacked blocks of stone/iron. And hardly struggled, he pulls it up to his chest and pushes it over in seconds with no more grunt or strain than he does pushing other boxes around, the obelisk was, every time calcluated by different people as well and always came to many times the blocks.

    ” Even if you assume the later blocks are stone, which they don’t have to be, a high-caliber round would still chip off enough stone to at least give him a hand-hold.”

    Their either stone or metal, both have been calculated, obviously the later are heavier/harder but I still use the low ball of stone anyway since I am such a nice guy.

    Problem with some of your assumptions like the “shipping container” one is its like stabbing yourself repeatedly with occams razor, each assumption assumes more things, whereas nobody has ever made shipping containers out of stone for ships that do not exist, then stored them somehow as part of a wall for someone to pull out. Or drawn hieroglyphs all over them, or made obelisks out of them just so you can downplay Raziels feat.

    Infact, the obelisk shows consistency with his strength, its the only cutscene based moment Raziel shows such high levels of strength and the way it moves suggests its not only insanely heavy but its design suggests the same. It would be many times heavier than any block or even triple numbers of them, and even then, their only being pushed around in that case. Pushing something can be easier than moving it off the ground.

    As usual you can look up the numbers in the respect thread, we have numbers for iron and stone respectfully.

    We could easily argue almost anything in fiction could be hollow to downplay a feat. “hur, see that mountain he busted? could have been hollow!”

    You realize the whole Kain durability thing is a massive lowball anyway, since I use what Raziel did not achieve (piercing kain) as his max durability, when to actually pierce him you need an order of magnitude of pressure of what we have plus a ridiculous amount more to damage his muscles, bone, tendons etc

    @Lowk

    “Not really setting breaking. Dante at least isn’t known for his durability, especially against sharp things. His thing is that he heals. Not to mention his regular days out involve superhuman creatures.”

    He does not heal in the game either, his healing factor and any form of durability is thrown out in-game just like Kains and pretty much any superhuman protagonist in an action game.

    As for superhuman creatures, most are fairly featless.

  55. Limbo Lowk April 26, 2015 at 5:05 am -      #55

    “He does not heal in the game either, his healing factor and any form of durability is thrown out in-game”

    That to is referenced, it just locked behind the devil trigger, aka the part of his nature responsible for his regen in the first place.
    ===
    “As for superhuman creatures, most are fairly featless.”

    If I had to pick between a fight between fairly featless monster over fairly featless human , personally; I’d pick thing that looks bigger and/or meaner looking thing that looks like it’s meant to eat the other. Besides some of these thing have feats like slicing through the ground like a shark through water.

  56. Kitten Lord April 26, 2015 at 5:18 am -      #56

    @Limbo Lowk

    “Besides some of these thing have feats like slicing through the ground like a shark through water.”

    Some are just moving mannequins or what look like patchwork bags of sand;

    devilmaycry.wikia.com/wiki/Scarecrow

    devilmaycry.wikia.com/wiki/Marionette

    ” I’d pick thing that looks bigger and/or meaner looking thing that looks like it’s meant to eat the other.”

    If we were gauging them on size, none of the creatures are potentially more than 5-10 feet tall so none of them are especially big or powerful. Granted some of the mooks are but then, some of the mooks in LoK are also 10-15ft demons that breathe fire and quake the earth when they stomp the ground…..

    Its been done, LoK mooks vs DMC and GoW, and LoK more than held its own.

  57. Limbo Lowk April 26, 2015 at 6:24 am -      #57

    “Its been done, LoK mooks vs DMC and GoW, and LoK more than held its own.”

    But how does that relate to Kain’s durability not being setting breaking? I’m not arguing over who has the better mooks. I’m not even arguing against the calc.
    The point was how do you not see Kain being that durable as setting breaking? Seriously how strong are these enemies that they would cause Kain to have to sneak into a fortress? He should have literally been able to walk through pretty much whatever they could throw at him casually.

  58. AbsoluteZero April 26, 2015 at 6:31 am -      #58

    ‘The point was how do you not see Kain being that durable as setting breaking? Seriously how strong are these enemies that they would cause Kain to have to sneak into a fortress? He should have literally been able to walk through pretty much whatever they could throw at him casually.’

    I haven’t played much Kain, i’ll be honest. I enjoy defiance. But, being on this site, i’ve been wondering exactly this. If Kain is as powerful as is said, why does he need to sneak into a fortress? Couldn’t he viably just charge, full ahead full, and rip everyone apart? Hell, it’s not like you couldn’t put that in gameplay either. Just have it be an action sequence. Why would he ever need stealth?

  59. Kitten Lord April 26, 2015 at 7:10 am -      #59

    @Lowk

    “But how does that relate to Kain’s durability not being setting breaking?”

    You brought up the strength of in-game mooks as apparently a way of suggesting this is the level kain fights at? so I brought up some weaklings from other popular action games, whos protagonists are also clearly way beyond those foes regardless of what gameplay mechanics display.

    “how strong are these enemies that they would cause Kain to have to sneak into a fortress? He should have literally been able to walk through pretty much whatever they could throw at him casually.”

    He can, hes sneaking into the fortress because he wants to find moebius, if he charged in theres the chance Moebius would escape.

    You could argue tons of reasons why he did not do this and that, why didn’t he just teleport to moebius’ tower, why didn’t he just bat/mist form up there? or climb the wall if he felt so inclined?

    Even without godly durability Kain has a healing factor that would make Dante blush.

    @Zero

    “Couldn’t he viably just charge, full ahead full, and rip everyone apart? Hell, it’s not like you couldn’t put that in gameplay either. Just have it be an action sequence. Why would he ever need stealth?”

    legacyofkain.wikia.com/wiki/Legacy_of_Kain:_Defiance_comic

    If you look through that comic, Kain makes sport of the soldiers trying to attack him. At no point ,especially since becoming an Elder have humans ever been portrayed as a threat to Kain, infact their stated as being an amusement for fledgling vampires during Kains empire, which, toppled human rule and took over.

  60. AreNamesNeeded April 26, 2015 at 8:20 am -      #60

    In the Marvel Axis story arc, which is pretty recent, Carnage was good for a little while, and ended up saving the world by wrapping himself around a bomb that would have killed pretty much every living thing on Earth that wasn’t a mutant. And he came back. Carnage doesn’t know how to die I think. That or Marvel plot armor. He also asked Spidey to build a colossal statue of him as a tribute, which I thought was pretty funny.

  61. AreNamesNeeded April 26, 2015 at 8:20 am -      #61

    In the Marvel Axis story arch, which is pretty recent, Carnage was good for a little while, and ended up saving the world by wrapping himself around a bomb that would have killed pretty much every living thing on Earth that wasn’t a mutant. And he came back.

    Carnage doesn’t know how to die I think. That or Marvel plot armor. He also asked Spidey to build a colossal statue of him as a tribute, which I thought was pretty funny.

  62. Kitten Lord April 26, 2015 at 8:42 am -      #62

    Hm seems symbiotes or at least Carnage may be vulnerable to mind rape.

  63. AreNamesNeeded April 26, 2015 at 9:37 am -      #63

    Woops double post sorry.

  64. Kitten Lord April 26, 2015 at 9:47 am -      #64

    Apology accepted, just dont let it happen again!

  65. AreNamesNeeded April 26, 2015 at 10:02 am -      #65

    Who are you, my mother?

  66. Kitten Lord April 26, 2015 at 11:07 am -      #66

    well actually…..

  67. Aelfinn April 26, 2015 at 1:31 pm -      #67

    “Why? The force was not extremely high when you take into account their at least in the high end double digit tons in weight. And again, their being cut into, not punched.”

    If I stabbed a small, solid, metal block with a knife, the metal block is going to move before it is punctured. If I’m hitting a mutli-ton block of steel with millions of pounds of force, it’s going to go flying regardless of how “sharp” Raziel’s fingers are. I understand it’s not actually the force of the earth’s core, but even accounting for Raziel’s claws it would STILL be hundreds of thousands to millions of pounds of force.
    =
    “First, we assumed their stone initially for a number of reasons, like the fact in most cases hes pulling them out of the wall, and for another old civilizations were more likely to chissel lumps of stone not somehow make boxes, the sound of it also would suggest its solid as it moves across the ground.”

    Well I was talking about the metal boxes he moved, but sure, let’s talk about the stone ones. Are you telling me that everyone who’s ever punctured stone exerted earth-core levels of pressure? Michelangelo is now earth-core tier. The Mount Everest Sherpas are now earth-core tier.
    =
    “Stone or iron, either way its many of times the size of even 3 stacked blocks of stone/iron. And hardly struggled, he pulls it up to his chest and pushes it over in seconds with no more grunt or strain than he does pushing other boxes around”

    Right, but he pushes it over, exerting at most half of the force required to lift it. He never pushes it around, which would require a hell of a lot more energy than flipping it does.
    =
    “We could easily argue almost anything in fiction could be hollow to downplay a feat. “hur, see that mountain he busted? could have been hollow!””

    Who the Hell just makes solid metal boxes for no purpose other than to create Raziel’s jumping puzzles? It’s not reasonable to assume mountains are hollow because mountains tend to not be hollow. It IS reasonable to assume giant metal boxes are hollow because not only do giant metal boxes tend to be hollow in real-life, but it also allows us to avoid extrapolating everyone in a series to earth-core levels of durability/damage when swords, spears, wooden stakes, and mild explosions are a threat to practically everyone.

  68. AreNamesNeeded April 26, 2015 at 2:06 pm -      #68

    @Kitten Lord

    Mother, is that you?

  69. Kitten Lord April 26, 2015 at 3:41 pm -      #69

    @Aeflinn

    “If I stabbed a small, solid, metal block with a knife, the metal block is going to move before it is punctured. If I’m hitting a mutli-ton block of steel with millions of pounds of force, it’s going to go flying regardless of how “sharp” Raziel’s fingers are. I understand it’s not actually the force of the earth’s core, but even accounting for Raziel’s claws it would STILL be hundreds of thousands to millions of pounds of force.”

    That depends on how sharp the knife is and how hard your hitting, if the impact has such high pressure that it goes through like a knife through butter it has no time or chance to go “flying”, this is all relative to the fact that again the blocks are like 30+ tons apiece, theres also the fact Raziel grabs hold of them, the whole point is often for him to pull the blocks, making himself a “hold”, so Raziels triple digit ton strength is also aiding them.

    Pressures at the tip of a knife can be phenomenal, even in every day life modern knives can be an atom in size, and certain surgeon scalpels (especially obsidian edged) are crazy sharp, the pressures would likely best even raziels. I hardly think an every day knife you can buy online would launch any metal block across a room if you tried to stab it.

    “Well I was talking about the metal boxes he moved, but sure, let’s talk about the stone ones. Are you telling me that everyone who’s ever punctured stone exerted earth-core levels of pressure? Michelangelo is now earth-core tier. The Mount Everest Sherpas are now earth-core tier.”

    This is coming very close to becoming a strawman now, I do not know the specifics of Sherpas or Michelangelo, all I know is that pressure at the very tip of raziels claw is enormous, and how much “force” is required to indent a solid block of limestone/granite. Thats what the calc gives us, whatever those other characters you mention do would have to be argued separately.

    “Right, but he pushes it over, exerting at most half of the force required to lift it. He never pushes it around, which would require a hell of a lot more energy than flipping it does”

    Does it? I wouldnt have thought so, can you give me some physical mechanics to display this for me? Because him lifting it up off the ground by itself, even if its on a pivot is still working agsinst the gravity, wheras considering his strength all hes doing with pushing blocks is friction based.

    Their still in orders of magnitude lighter, for example the obelisk was calced to be “at least” 300+ tons if it was stone, nearly 1000 tons if it was iron.

    The blocks are at best 30 tons a piece.

    “It’s not reasonable to assume mountains are hollow because mountains tend to not be hollow”

    Actually, many mountains could be interwoven with caverns, some mountains may be the remains of volcanic activity and may have certain weaknesses in their formation, there are countless reasons. One could argue blocks taken from the walls tend to not be hollow as well, one does not make hollow containers somehow and make them part of a wall…..

    ” It IS reasonable to assume giant metal boxes are hollow because not only do giant metal boxes tend to be hollow in real-life”

    This is not real life, this is set in a medieval period of swords and sorcery, concerning the blocks that were calculated I do not recall any “seems” or “bolts” on the construction to suggest they were somehow nailed together, a few in the game look like they have it but not all. Your arguing that for some reason (to give raziel an easier time?) solid lumps of stone were cut out, broken into thinner blocks/slabs, then put back together to form a cube somehow (I am no builder, how would a medieval society even keep solid slabs like that together?) then…..roll it back into the wall…..

    Seems absurd to me, not to mention knowing raziels strength, if the stone blocks were hollow he would be ripping piecies off them and they would become useless to him to move, since by piercing them they would become even weaker, trying to pull something with even tons of force thats hollow after youve just potentially made it weaker by puncturing holes in it seems even worse an idea.

    A series of blocks here, the first one I cannot see any rivets, nails, or any sort of seem, but more importantly if its a metal shipping crate whats it doing in this room? Theres no way most men or vampires could likely even move it.

    The second one, this is a clear lump of stone to me, again no seems, solid all the way around with what look like hieroglyphs on it. Could easily be just a piece of the temple Raziel is exploring.

    These are slotted in as part of the wall, so clearly a part of this structure in some way. According to your assumption they for some reason made hollow piecies to hold up their temples, for the sole reason of what? making it unsafe and a weaker construction?

    Since we know Raziel has at least super strength in the triple digit ton range from the pillar flip, he would be able to launch those blocks around effortlessly like I would a football if they were hollow, since even if solid their only 20-30 tons they would be minuscule to him otherwise but clearly he does a lot of mucking about to move them.

    This one is the only one I can grant looks like its got “slats” or “bars” of material. The second one has bolts, but consider both of the metal ones which may be made of iron would take more pressure to pierce/indent than the stone we have already calcluated in the first place. The calculation only considers that Raziels “claw” is entering the stone/iron which is the same whether hteir hollow or not unless your suggesting their not only hollow but extremely thin which would not make sense with the sound they make as they move, the should be very light if their only an inch or so thick. We know this not to be the case anyway because even with the blocks that have bolts, the bolts intersect with the other sides of the cube several inches in.

    These are interesting;

    “-https://youtu.be/82Edy3F2sng?t=1076

    Being pipes you can see their not relatively hollow in the centre but the rest of it is solid, so this proves Raziel “can” penetrate his whole claw into a hunk of metal. This one could be brass, this one iron;

    So in conclusion to this post I guess I can understand where your coming from concerning the metal cubes, but the calcs throughout the respect thread are all based on the stone ones, if the “video” in the thread has a metal one in it though inform me and ill change it for one of the stone ones, either way, it also proves that Raziel can pierce metal as well, which would take more pressure.

    The end result will always be a lowball concerning kains durability until we can calcluate the force/pressure required to actually pierce his skin and still redundant for BankGambling where you have to “kill” the opponent, not just pierce, which would require far more force/pressure to go straight through flesh, muscle, bone and tendons, all at once too since his regen will just render any gradual attacks useless so I think its still unfair that what I am using which is essentially a lowball is constantly being brought up.

  70. Ragnorke April 26, 2015 at 4:11 pm -      #70

    What’s this about “Superman level durability”…?
    Do you guys have any idea what kind of things Superman has tanked?

    I find it highly unlikely that even with the highest amount of wank in existence, Kain can tank a Supernova,
    The destruction of a galaxy,
    Being sandwiched between 2 planets bigger than hyperion stars crashing into each other,
    Surviving inside and exiting a Blackhole,
    Rips in reality, on a universal scale,

  71. Kitten Lord April 26, 2015 at 4:11 pm -      #71

    Wonder why my videos were not time stamped, I copied and pasted the “url at current time” command? Unless I was hitting “embed” by mistake….

  72. Limbo Lowk April 26, 2015 at 5:25 pm -      #72

    “so I brought up some weaklings from other popular action games, whos protagonists are also clearly way beyond those foes regardless of what gameplay mechanics display.”

    Yeah but at least they have a form of showing it off to hint at it.
    Knowing how durable he is is like knowing how fast superman is and being disappointed every time he doesn’t use it.
    ===
    “If you look through that comic, Kain makes sport of the soldiers trying to attack him.”

    And he dodges an attack. Kain is doing the who invulnerability thing wrong. He’s like Thor block a bullet. You don’t need to block the bullet thor your invulnerable.
    ===
    “He can, hes sneaking into the fortress because he wants to find moebius, if he charged in theres the chance Moebius would escape.”

    Yeah but he realized Moebius was leading him on like halfway through the level.
    ===
    “Even without godly durability Kain has a healing factor that would make Dante blush.”

    Really? I thought they’d both be around the same ‘bullshit how are you still even standing’ levels.
    ===
    “well actually…..”

    Kitten Lord confirmed for being a mother.

  73. Kitten Lord April 26, 2015 at 6:16 pm -      #73

    @Lowk

    “Yeah but at least they have a form of showing it off to hint at it.
    Knowing how durable he is is like knowing how fast superman is and being disappointed every time he doesn’t use it.”

    If theres a good reason, like say if he was faceing street thugs but decided to go light speed everywhere it would be ridiculous and excessive.

    “And he dodges an attack. Kain is doing the who invulnerability thing wrong. He’s like Thor block a bullet. You don’t need to block the bullet thor your invulnerable.”

    Aye, hes also making mincemeat of his enemies at the same time as reminiscing about his past, as in, humans are about as much a threat to him as I am to a tower block sized Dyson vacuum cleaner coming to devour me.

    “Yeah but he realized Moebius was leading him on like halfway through the level.”

    He still wouldn’t want to just bust willy nilly through the fortress. By then hed just found a useful artifact to empower the reaver, proving that looking about the citadel rather than smashing through it as fast as you can could be beneficial. And lo and behold, he finds the conflict reaver enhancement a little later in the same building.

    Basically, in his first engagement he thought he had snuck up on moebius, who then proceded to use his hax staff and show Kain some folly, if Kain had gone on a murderous rampage it would have been obvious that he was perhaps too much to handle and may have escaped.

    Course all that is semantics, the real reason is because his goal was moebius, simple as that. If he can stealth through without being hindered as much as he can (didnt really work out) then why not? Besides, there wouldnt be much of a level if all you had to do was press “bat form” as soon as you started and flew straight to moebius.

    “Really? I thought they’d both be around the same ‘bullshit how are you still even standing’ levels.”

    Maybe with his own regen, but hes holding the reaver, which has even more hax regen.

    “Kitten Lord confirmed for being a mother.”

    mothers rule……

  74. AbsoluteZero April 26, 2015 at 8:46 pm -      #74

    “If theres a good reason, like say if he was faceing street thugs but decided to go light speed everywhere it would be ridiculous and excessive.”

    So, what you’re saying is, Kain isn’t the type to utterly abuse his power and not give his enemies a hope in hell? He’d never do something that his enemies have no hope of dealing with because it would be excessive? That isn’t the vibe I get from him.

    “Aye, hes also making mincemeat of his enemies at the same time as reminiscing about his past, as in, humans are about as much a threat to him as I am to a tower block sized Dyson vacuum cleaner coming to devour me.”

    Is he? I mean, i’ve started playing defiance again. I can’t think of a sequence where he’s busy thinking back on the past while fighting.

    “He still wouldn’t want to just bust willy nilly through the fortress. By then hed just found a useful artifact to empower the reaver, proving that looking about the citadel rather than smashing through it as fast as you can could be beneficial. And lo and behold, he finds the conflict reaver enhancement a little later in the same building.”

    So, not only is Kain totally not the kind to abuse his apparently extreme powers for any reason, when there’d apparently be absolutely no threat to him, he apparently has the ability to see the future and say, “Yep. Gonna be an artefact I need here.”

    I’d argue that worked out due to sheer dumb luck. Hell, i’d say Moebius just gave him the damn thing, rather than it being any great act of thought on his part.

    “Basically, in his first engagement he thought he had snuck up on moebius, who then proceded to use his hax staff and show Kain some folly, if Kain had gone on a murderous rampage it would have been obvious that he was perhaps too much to handle and may have escaped.”

    Moebius escaped anyway? He wasn’t in any danger from Kain at that point. The staff left Kain struggling on the ground. If he went in stealth, or not, that wouldn’t have changed. Moebius had been -waiting- for Kain.

    “Course all that is semantics, the real reason is because his goal was moebius, simple as that. If he can stealth through without being hindered as much as he can (didnt really work out) then why not? Besides, there wouldnt be much of a level if all you had to do was press “bat form” as soon as you started and flew straight to moebius.”

    I’m not suggesting that that be the level. I’m suggesting that he had absolutely no reason to use steath. With the powers being attributed to him, he could have run in there singing march of the valkryres, and had exactly the same result. Moebius waited. He would’ve been there. He had the staff, no reason to be concerned regardless of how many people Kain tore apart.

  75. Aelfinn April 26, 2015 at 9:36 pm -      #75

    “the pressures would likely best even raziels. “

    I just realized how stupid it was to be using a feat for “pressure” in the first place. Fantastic, you can resist sharp objects. That doesn’t mean much when you’re clearly thrown around by blunt strikes. Who cares if your skin can resist 300,000,000 psi without breaking when it’s still going to take 5000 Newtons to break a bone like a normal person? Your body might be fine from the explosion, but the overpressure wave is still going to turn your internal organs to mush. There’s a million and a half ways for Kain to die without having his skin penetrated, so saying he “can survive an orbital strike” is just straight-up wrong. Who’s the one dude who claims to be superior to Kain? He dies from a relatively small explosion that doesn’t even destroy the center of it.
    =
    “This is coming very close to becoming a strawman now, I do not know the specifics of Sherpas or Michelangelo, all I know is that pressure at the very tip of raziels claw is enormous, and how much “force” is required to indent a solid block of limestone/granite. Thats what the calc gives us, whatever those other characters you mention do would have to be argued separately.”

    Hahaha okay, you clearly misinterpreted me. I was talking about the real-life Michelangelo and real-life Sherpas. You know, Michelangelo the sculptor and the Sherpa mountain-climbers? Maybe Sherpas were incorrect, but Michelangelo cut through stone all the time. You know, using a human chisel. Mountain-climbers dig holes into stone all the time in order to place anchors and secure themselves. Miners create holes all the time just to place dynamite. Creating a small-ish hole in stone with just your hands, while definitely super-human, isn’t some kind of insane feat to be marveled at like it’s this godly occurrence.
    =
    “Does it? I wouldnt have thought so, can you give me some physical mechanics to display this for me? Because him lifting it up off the ground by itself, even if its on a pivot is still working agsinst the gravity, wheras considering his strength all hes doing with pushing blocks is friction based.”

    To lift 150 tons (which I know is an over-estimation, considering the force required would constantly be decreasing as it’s being tilted) 1.5 meters high requires 2000346 Joules. To drag 30 tons of granite across granite (thereby assuming a coefficient of friction of 0.6) for 15 meters would require 2400407 Joules.
    =
    “Actually, many mountains could be interwoven with caverns, some mountains may be the remains of volcanic activity and may have certain weaknesses in their formation, there are countless reasons. One could argue blocks taken from the walls tend to not be hollow as well, one does not make hollow containers somehow and make them part of a wall”

    Now you’re being asinine. Yes, I know about these things, but they are unlikely to take up the majority of a mountain’s volume except, perhaps, maybe, if it’s a volcano.
    =
    “solid lumps of stone were cut out, broken into thinner blocks/slabs, then put back together to form a cube somehow (I am no builder, how would a medieval society even keep solid slabs like that together?) then…..roll it back into the wall…..”

    I never ONCE said the stone blocks were hollow. I was talking simply about the metal ones.
    =
    Btw, where’s the respect thread? I realize now that it’s inaccurate to use a large cone to calc pressure when the equation itself revolves around the use of uniform, circular balls.

  76. Kitten Lord April 27, 2015 at 5:04 am -      #76

    @Aeflinn

    “There’s a million and a half ways for Kain to die without having his skin penetrated”

    Kain cannot die, hes immortal. However if your saying he will die from damage to internal organs this is also amusing for reasons that someone who “knows Kain” like you claimed to should know then……

    Also Kains taken the pressure, no “extra” force mushed his organs, he took this pressure way back early soul reaver 2 yet when he lost his heart it was fine. It just scales up, his bones would be as strong as human bones only scaled up, so his skin is thousands of times stronger than a humans, as is his bones. otherwise, him moving alone should put pressure on his bones and twist his shape.

    “Who’s the one dude who claims to be superior to Kain? He dies from a relatively small explosion that doesn’t even destroy the center of it.”

    He burns in a large furnace, the explosion is irrelevent. Also, I bolded the important part of what you said. Kains sons owe all their power to but a fragment of Kains soul he deemed to give them.

    “, isn’t some kind of insane feat to be marveled at like it’s this godly occurrence”

    Your using examples not even related to what Raziel is doing though, the fact he does it with his coneline claws as opposed to chiseling away with a tool makes all the difference. Thats like saying who cares if a superhuman can go mach speeds by running when humans can get in a jet and go faster…..

    “To lift 150 tons (which I know is an over-estimation, considering the force required would constantly be decreasing as it’s being tilted) ”

    150 tons is how much he “does” have to lift, because the block is at least 300 tons, which means that as the “pivot” is in the centre of the mass, it will be hoding half the weight, hence why 150 is used. Of course, Mea came up with another calc which placed the block at around 1200 tons and if it is iron the numbers sky rocket.

    “To lift 150 tons (which I know is an over-estimation, considering the force required would constantly be decreasing as it’s being tilted) 1.5 meters high requires 2000346 Joules. To drag 30 tons of granite across granite (thereby assuming a coefficient of friction of 0.6) for 15 meters would require 2400407 Joules.”

    Surely the speed he moved 15 meters matters? I do not recall Raziel moving 15 meters with the block as fast as he moves the piller up to his chest and over 1.5 meters. That said, why are you arguing? seriously? because your numbers if anything proved Raziels case for him, the difference between your numbers are minute, it looks like it makes sense to me. Move something 5x heavier only a short distance vs moving something lighter a longer difference, of course its going to take a bit more power.

    “Now you’re being asinine. Yes, I know about these things, but they are unlikely to take up the majority of a mountain’s volume except, perhaps, maybe, if it’s a volcano.”

    And your not with all these comments on stone being made into slabs just ot be made into blocks just so they can be placed in the wall? right…..but I am asinine for pointing out the holes in your example. A mountain is far more likely to be interwoven with caverns or have weaknesses in its structure than al the stretches of truth your making.

    “I never ONCE said the stone blocks were hollow. I was talking simply about the metal ones.”

    So this argument you admit is a waste of time and a nitpick then, because the stone ones are what we calculated. The metal ones are more impressive.

    “Btw, where’s the respect thread?”

    www.factpiletopia.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=45106

    First page, at the bottom.

    ” I realize now that it’s inaccurate to use a large cone to calc pressure when the equation itself revolves around the use of uniform, circular balls.”

    You do not understand the point of the experiment, its not about the shape of the balls, its about the surface area, the flat surfaces of Raziels cone can be stretched out to any shape, their surface area which is what were calculating stays the same. If a ball the same surface area of Raziels cone went into a block of granite the force would be the same.

    @Zero

    “So, what you’re saying is, Kain isn’t the type to utterly abuse his power and not give his enemies a hope in hell? He’d never do something that his enemies have no hope of dealing with because it would be excessive? That isn’t the vibe I get from him.”

    Since becoming an Elder he seems less likely to go crazy with power yes, certainly not in every fight against humans he deems worthless. For example in the game he uses TK to throw a man onto a spike, he could have just splattered him all over the place, but what would be the point? not his style….hes not Kratos, yelling with veins bulging around his neck as he batters everyone with anger. Like a lot of vampires in modern fiction hes civilized to an extent.

    “Is he? I mean, i’ve started playing defiance again. I can’t think of a sequence where he’s busy thinking back on the past while fighting.”

    We were talking about the comic, in Defiance the only canon instances of him faceing a human was when he was threatening the poor man in a grip as the poor fellow squirmed in terror. That and when he tells humans he would not give them any mercy…..cant remember any others.

    “So, not only is Kain totally not the kind to abuse his apparently extreme powers for any reason, when there’d apparently be absolutely no threat to him, he apparently has the ability to see the future and say, “Yep. Gonna be an artefact I need here.”

    I’d argue that worked out due to sheer dumb luck. Hell, i’d say Moebius just gave him the damn thing, rather than it being any great act of thought on his part.”

    You misunderstand me, Kain is trying to unravel a great mystery, the mystery of how to restore vampire rule the the citadel, how to find Raziel etc, he is an explorer and gains knowledge. So, its not unlike him to explore this citadel, especially after finding this first artifact.

    Oh, and actually Kain does perceive the future, you may not have played the whole series otherwise you would know about the Chronoplast, a time machine that he uses to both “look into” and “travel/explore” time.

    “Moebius escaped anyway? He wasn’t in any danger from Kain at that point. The staff left Kain struggling on the ground. If he went in stealth, or not, that wouldn’t have changed. Moebius had been -waiting- for Kain.”

    Kain clearly did not know this, he was taken by surprise wasnt he. Moebius did not escape the second time, why let your enemy think his “ace” (moebius’) staff would be useless later on until you actually show it to him when you arrive? Kain was playing a calculating game.

    “I’m suggesting that he had absolutely no reason to use steath”

    Just out of interest, when did he use stealth? seems to me hes just walking around the halls of the sarafan stronghold….

    “With the powers being attributed to him, he could have run in there singing march of the valkryres, and had exactly the same result. Moebius waited. He would’ve been there. He had the staff, no reason to be concerned regardless of how many people Kain tore apart.”

    Kain does not consider the staff though does he until Moebius reminds him of it in their first encounter. Had Kain gone in, launching 200 ton bursts of TK through every building, toppling the fortress only to find Moebius had teleported away he would feel pretty stupid wouldn’t he? Luckily he shows constraint where you would not and cought his fish in the end.

  77. Rookie April 27, 2015 at 5:58 am -      #77

    @Kitten Lord

    “He burns in a large furnace, the explosion is irrelevent. Also, I bolded the important part of what you said. Kains sons owe all their power to but a fragment of Kains soul he deemed to give them.”

    Dumah’s durability is superior to Kain’s in every way. He also exist on spectral plane, so yes, technically his evolution is superior to Kain’s. Kain knows more spells and have better artifacts though.

  78. Kitten Lord April 27, 2015 at 6:07 am -      #78

    @Rookie

    “Dumah’s durability is superior to Kain’s in every way. He also exist on spectral plane, so yes, technically his evolution is superior to Kain’s. Kain knows more spells and have better artifacts though.”

    Feats? And all vampires exist on the spectral plane without a host body, hence why the body has to be burned or remain “impaled” or in “water” for a vampire to be defeated physically.

    “so yes, technically his evolution is superior to Kain’s”

    Nobody’s “evolution” (or in the case of his sons devolution) can be superior to Kains as he is their progenitor. Some of them just have “different” evolutions, such as Dumah is super tough, Rahab can swim, Raziel gains wings etc.

    Also not really important but interesting all the same, before the Soul reaver game was redesigned slightly due to time constraints it was the devs intent for Raziel to gain “shift at will” from material to spectral from Kain after he ate his soul.

    Considering Raziel only got the abilities the vampire itself had from its soul, it implies Kain could “shift at will” from material to spectral, course it was retconned so I cannot use it but would have been extremely useful.

  79. Rookie April 27, 2015 at 6:54 am -      #79

    @Kitten Lord

    “Feats?”

    Reaver can’t hurt him. Nothing short of furnace can hurt him. Even light.

    “And all vampires exist on the spectral plane without a host body”

    Yes, but he is also can fight at this plane and steal souls. He is the only enemy in the game who can give you game over in SR 1 if he “suck you dry”))).

  80. Kitten Lord April 27, 2015 at 7:10 am -      #80

    @Rookie

    “Reaver can’t hurt him. Nothing short of furnace can hurt him. Even light.”

    Hes never been hit canonically by the reaver, the player choosing to strike him or try and attack him is just that, player choice. The battle can be finished (and should be) by just leading him to the furnace. Even if there was a canon scene of Dumah getting hit by the reaver, Kain is never hit by it in Soul reaver either so we cannot compare. The only time Kain is injured is 2 games later in the series, or 2 and a half since Dumah is halfway through.

    “Yes, but he is also can fight at this plane and steal souls.”

    Any vampire wraith can though, its purely because hes spent a long time in the spectral realm due to his body being out of action. It has nothing to do with evolution.

    From a canon perspective beyond him having the most impressive FMV/cutscene feats, Kain also has more “lore”, because he is at least thousands of years older than Dumah, and so would have had more “lore” from drinking blood. Drinking blood makes vamps tougher and harder to kill and Kains had centuries of it.

  81. Aelfinn April 28, 2015 at 5:09 pm -      #81

    “Kain cannot die, hes immortal. However if your saying he will die from damage to internal organs this is also amusing for reasons that someone who “knows Kain” like you claimed to should know then”

    I’m sure if Superman punched Kain, he’d die. No plot NLF would get him out of that one. Listen, I understand he’s durable. I’m not arguing that his organs aren’t super-tough or whatever. It’s just that if he’s smacked by some god-awful force that doesn’t penetrate his skin, he’s still going down.
    =
    “Also Kains taken the pressure, no “extra” force mushed his organs, he took this pressure way back early soul reaver 2 yet when he lost his heart it was fine. It just scales up, his bones would be as strong as human bones only scaled up, so his skin is thousands of times stronger than a humans, as is his bones. otherwise, him moving alone should put pressure on his bones and twist his shape.”

    I don’t even know what you’re trying to say here. If Kain’s skin can resist high pressure, that doesn’t necessarily apply to everything inside him to the same way, let alone the more fragile vital organs. Human’s can survive getting punched in the skull. It sucks, but they survive it. If you opened up a human’s head and punched the brain directly, you’re going to fuck shit up. I could get really tough calluses that could resist knife cuts. That doesn’t mean the inside of my lungs could survive a razor blade.
    =
    “Your using examples not even related to what Raziel is doing though, the fact he does it with his coneline claws as opposed to chiseling away with a tool makes all the difference. Thats like saying who cares if a superhuman can go mach speeds by running when humans can get in a jet and go faster…..”

    I already SAID it was superhuman, come on, keep up. It’s very clearly a difficult thing to do, just not one that inherently escalates him to comic book superhero tier.
    =
    “150 tons is how much he “does” have to lift, because the block is at least 300 tons, which means that as the “pivot” is in the centre of the mass, it will be hoding half the weight, hence why 150 is used.”

    And as the center of mass moves, he will need to apply less and less force to continue pushing up.
    =
    “Surely the speed he moved 15 meters matters?”

    It does not in terms of energy produced.
    =
    ” That said, why are you arguing? seriously? because your numbers if anything proved Raziels case for him, the difference between your numbers are minute,”

    Now consider he can push and pull blocks on top of each other. So double or even triple that energy.
    =
    “You do not understand the point of the experiment, its not about the shape of the balls, its about the surface area, the flat surfaces of Raziels cone can be stretched out to any shape, their surface area which is what were calculating stays the same. If a ball the same surface area of Raziels cone went into a block of granite the force would be the same.”

    It absolutely is about the shape of the balls. They did use a giant railroad spike, they used a ball. They didn’t use a nail, they used a ball. The DIAMETER clearly matters, and the equation is based off of the diameter of a steel ball in particular. Sharp objects act entirely differently because they have a very, very small diameter that slowly grows. A ball’s diameter increases much faster, and the claws simply can’t be used to calc pressure in the same way. They simply can’t.
    =
    Using Meas fist as the example of the area, and the above figuires on Kains pressure resistance, then we can find that there are 4959.6675 square mm’s in the estimate of the punch. Kains pressure resistance based on above numbers is 11.6 Terapascals per square mm, so multiplied by 4959.6675 we get 57.7 Petapascals, equivalent to roughly twice the core pressure of our star, the sun. “

    Also, this is a load of bullshit. You don’t multiply Pressure by area to get MORE PRESSURE. That’s why it’s “pounds PER square inch”. Every square inch has a certain amount of pounds exerted on it. Increasing the area increases the Force applied, not the pressure.
    =
    “Nobody’s “evolution” (or in the case of his sons devolution) can be superior to Kains as he is their progenitor.”

    I don’t know how evolution works in Legacy of Kain, but in real-life, children tend to be better than their adults.

  82. Friendlysociopath April 28, 2015 at 5:15 pm -      #82

    I don’t know how evolution works in Legacy of Kain, but in real-life, children tend to be better than their adults.

    Essentially Kain was Voldemort before it was cool; he caught the souls of the Serafan Lieutenants and placed them back in their original bodies- along with a piece of his own to ‘jumpstart’ them before taking his soul portion back.
    Raziel got the largest piece, which is how he managed to surpass Kain with his wings; his entire clan actually started growing them.

    Not sure if it’s actually “surpassing” Kain since they all evolved in different ways.

  83. Kitten Lord April 28, 2015 at 5:32 pm -      #83

    @Aeflinn

    ” It’s just that if he’s smacked by some god-awful force that doesn’t penetrate his skin, he’s still going down.”

    He wouldnt because like I said hes immortal, as per the games rules. a NLF would be if a vague ability implied he may be immortal but its said in the actual manuel the words hes immortal. And like I said damaging his organs is a waste of time since Kain has regen, even if his organs were turned into soup vamps in LoK heal “almost instantly” as a general rule.

    ” If Kain’s skin can resist high pressure, that doesn’t necessarily apply to everything inside him to the same way”

    it does to his ribs/bones because their like less than an inch behind the skin he was struck on, and if his skin is this super durable yet his inner body was not scaled up in any way he would be injured wouldnt he, he wasnt. We know when Kains injured because he shows signs of pain and bleeds/coughs up blood.

    “That doesn’t mean the inside of my lungs could survive a razor blade.”

    This is a weird way of reasoning because the blade would have to get to your lungs first. Some organs ae softer than others obviously, some are stronger, the point is Kains inner body is a combination of things stronger than a square millimeter of skin raziel could not pierce, like bones, muscle all working together to make sure Kain does not break.

    “just not one that inherently escalates him to comic book superhero tier.”

    When did i say it was?

    “The DIAMETER clearly matters”

    This was taken into account in the calc. obviously you need to use diameter to find the cone as well.

    “Sharp objects act entirely differently because they have a very, very small diameter that slowly grows.”

    Wow the mans a genius, its still a calcluation of force required. It does not matter what shape you use, it still takes X amount of force to get through the amount of granite or iron Raziel got through. If you zoom in close enough the tip of raziels claws are “spheres” on a miniature level and at some point, he is going to have to push the full diamter of his claws to fit them into the material.

    “A ball’s diameter increases much faster, and the claws simply can’t be used to calc pressure in the same way. They simply can’t.”

    Explain, it still comes down to the amount of surface area on surface area/volume. It does not matter if its the area/volume of a ball or the diamter of claws/cones. At some point the final diamter of 20mm which was used of the cone is going to come into play, justl ike how the ball starts off with a smaller surface area.

    Theres also the fact Raziel had to create “holds” for himself, using nothing but hte flat sides of his claws which are not sharp to pressure the rock.

    “Also, this is a load of bullshit. You don’t multiply Pressure by area to get MORE PRESSURE.”

    If it takes X pressure to penetrate a square mm, its going to take more pressure to penetrate a square inch etc etc. Your confusing the calc required for the attacker in our example. This is why putting a nail into something is easier than punching through it, your going to need a lot more force and therefore pressure to punch through an object that can tank without a scratch terapascals arent you….

    “I don’t know how evolution works in Legacy of Kain”

    Ok.

  84. Amm0vamp1r3 April 28, 2015 at 5:33 pm -      #84

    I don’t either I don’t recall them going into detail about it, besides how they do it but:

    But going by Kain and what he can do then you go by what other vampires can do its hard to know what evolution entails
    We already know what Kain can do
    But other vampires can
    -Harden their skin actively
    – got to the point water didn’t hurt them but sun did more damage
    -Dumahs body turned into armor
    -Raziel and the razielem grew wings
    -some of them gained magic, the can summon demons
    -some of them,forgot their names,messes with their evolution and ended up gaining powerful mental abilities (mind control,shapshifting)then again could be argued they got that from Kain
    And so on and so on


    So unless I’m remembering wrong not much was said about evolution and we really just kind of assume some things

  85. Amm0vamp1r3 April 28, 2015 at 5:38 pm -      #85

  86. Kitten Lord April 28, 2015 at 5:45 pm -      #86

    Friendly pretty much covered it, Kain gives them a piece of his soul, and due to the power of his soul they evolve differently, Kain did not give everyone an equal portion of his soul, the more they got, the stronger they were.

    Raziel was the top of the list, then Dumah/Turel.

    Melchiah and Zephon I think were the weaker ones, espcially Melchiah, he was like the son nobody cared about, the guy was looking a bit rotten even before the “time shift” after Raziels “punishment”.

  87. Aelfinn May 1, 2015 at 12:03 am -      #87

    “it does to his ribs/bones because their like less than an inch behind the skin he was struck on, and if his skin is this super durable yet his inner body was not scaled up in any way he would be injured wouldnt he, he wasnt. We know when Kains injured because he shows signs of pain and bleeds/coughs up blood.”

    You’re thinking about Force and Energy there, buckaroo. THOSE would transfer, not necessarily pressure.
    =
    “This is a weird way of reasoning because the blade would have to get to your lungs first. “

    I should have been clear: if you inhale a razor blade, it would fuck you up, wheres your skin would be pretty close to fine.
    =
    “When did i say it was?”

    When you claimed in the respect thread that he could survive the inside of a star.
    =
    “This was taken into account in the calc. obviously you need to use diameter to find the cone as well.”

    Wrong. Remember, I did one of the calcs. In no way did I account for the degree of change that a cone would have.
    =
    “Wow the mans a genius, its still a calcluation of force required. It does not matter what shape you use, it still takes X amount of force to get through the amount of granite or iron Raziel got through. If you zoom in close enough the tip of raziels claws are “spheres” on a miniature level and at some point, he is going to have to push the full diamter of his claws to fit them into the material.”

    Wrong again. We specifically calc’d pressure, not Force. Two different ball-games. Also: the change in diameter with respect to distance from the edge of the object is vastly different when comparing a cone and a sphere. Have you cut anything with a cricket ball?
    =
    “Explain, it still comes down to the amount of surface area on surface area/volume. It does not matter if its the area/volume of a ball or the diamter of claws/cones. At some point the final diamter of 20mm which was used of the cone is going to come into play, justl ike how the ball starts off with a smaller surface area.”

    Alright, think about this: I push in the sphere 1 mm. I dent the metal to a diameter of 1 mm. I push in the sphere to 2 mm. I dent the metal to a diameter of 4 mm. Now I use the cone. I push in the cone 1 mm. I dent the metal to a diameter of 1 mm. I push in the cone to 2 mm. I dent the metal to a diameter of 2.5 mm.

    Do you see the difference that having a more narrow object does? Each mm you insert will require less pressure with a cone than with a ball, even if by the end the “dent” is the same diameter.
    =
    “If it takes X pressure to penetrate a square mm, its going to take more pressure to penetrate a square inch etc etc”

    Alright, you clearly have no idea what’s going on here. PRESSURE is different from FORCE. FORCE is the total Newtons you exert. PRESSURE is the FORCE you exert over a given AREA. The equation is literally Pressure = Force/Area. To penetrate a larger AREA requires more FORCE, but the SAME PRESSURE. To quote you, it’s why a nail works so well. You don’t need to apply a large FORCE in order to penetrate something because you get a high PRESSURE due to the small AREA.
    =
    “Ok.”

    You want to explain how evolution works differently in this universe? Unless vampires are magically incapable of improving without Kain’s soul…

  88. Kitten Lord May 1, 2015 at 4:42 am -      #88

    @Aeflinn

    “When you claimed in the respect thread that he could survive the inside of a star.”

    The pressures inside of a star. Not sure he can do much about the heat unfortunately.

    “Wrong. Remember, I did one of the calcs. In no way did I account for the degree of change that a cone would have.”

    Thats not what I said, I said you we all covered diameter, the changing is irrelevent when he puts his whole claw in at once.

    “We specifically calc’d pressure, not Force.”

    You did not calculate any pressure at all, the brinell hardness scale which is what we were using calculates force required, not pressure required.

    ” I dent the metal to a diameter of 1 mm. I push in the cone to 2 mm. I dent the metal to a diameter of 2.5 mm.”

    And if you continued, you would eventually get to similar diameter as the ball, since both of them max out their diameter eventually.

    This is all getting us nowhere, cones and spheres are both used to find hardness.

    “Do you see the difference that having a more narrow object does? Each mm you insert will require less pressure with a cone than with a ball, even if by the end the “dent” is the same diameter.”

    Your explanation there suggests your moving it in bit by bit, Raziel puts the whole claw in at once, in like less than a second. Thats just the impalement, your not accounting for the fact he has to make a hold for himself as well, which requires the flat sides of his “cone” to push the rock further around inside.

    “Alright, you clearly have no idea what’s going on here”

    I do, you just do not understand the concepts I am using, if a bedroom floor can take 10 pounds per square inch then it can take 144x that per square foot. Its that simple, and is a basic unit of measurement but apparently in your effort to downplay LoK you throw that basic logic out, here let me help you;

    lmgtfy.com/?q=10+pounds+per+square+inch+to+pounds+per+square+foot

    “To penetrate a larger AREA requires more FORCE, but the SAME PRESSURE”

    It actually requires both, it requires significantly more force to produce more pressure.

    “You want to explain how evolution works differently in this universe?”

    Not really, the people I generally argue this with have some idea of the principles. But your right to a degree, vampires evolve rapidly, e.g. in maybe hundreds of years rather than over millions and they do so based on the amount of soul they gained from Kain.

  89. Ragnorke May 1, 2015 at 5:54 am -      #89

    I don’t know the context of the argument, or its specifics.
    Just putting that out there.

    “if a bedroom floor can take 10 pounds per square inch then it can take 144x that per square foot. Its that simple”

    This only applies if the force is distributed EVENLY across the entirety of the square inch & square foot.

    Pressure = Force / Area.

    So in the example you gave, while it’s true the floor can take more “force” as the area increases, the Pressure that it can withstand will ALWAYS remain constant.

    Meaning the 10 pounds per square inch that the floor can withstand, will stay the same at any square inch of the floor.
    So if someone were to apply 144x that Force in an area smaller than a square foot, even if the floor itself is a square foot in size, the floor WOULD still collapse.

    “To penetrate a larger AREA requires more FORCE, but the SAME PRESSURE”

    This is… Well… Half true.

    Penetrating a larger surface area needs you to distribute your Force more evenly.
    Which generally means reducing the pressure you’re applying at any one point on that area.

    However, if the size of the attack is the exact same, meaning you’re still hitting the same area, but expect to penetrate a larger surface area… That depends ENTIRELY on the brittleness/Hardness of the material in question.
    As a general rule though, you would need more Force, which means more Pressure as well. Since the Area being hit remains the same.

    Can someone give me the specific numbers being discussed here? I’m rather curious.

  90. Ragnorke May 1, 2015 at 6:06 am -      #90

    “To penetrate a larger AREA requires more FORCE, but the SAME PRESSURE”

    Whoops, realized i forgot to say a very vital point.

    If the Force that you’re “hitting” the area with, is also increased in Area, proportionally to the area you’re trying to destroy.
    Then yes, the Force & Area would increase, but the pressure would remain the EXACT same.

  91. Amm0vamp1r3 May 1, 2015 at 11:34 am -      #91

    When does Kain become super durable? I know he isn’t born super durable

  92. Kitten Lord May 1, 2015 at 2:50 pm -      #92

    @Ragnorke

    “Can someone give me the specific numbers being discussed here? I’m rather curious.”

    Their at the end of the first page of the Kain respect thread.

    “Meaning the 10 pounds per square inch that the floor can withstand, will stay the same at any square inch of the floor.
    So if someone were to apply 144x that Force in an area smaller than a square foot, even if the floor itself is a square foot in size, the floor WOULD still collapse.”

    EXACTLY what I am saying, yes per square inch it will remain the same for every square inch. But combined, their 144x that in a square foot.

    @Ammo

    “When does Kain become super durable? I know he isn’t born super durable”

    I would say during his evolution, so post Blood omen 2, between then and soul reaver. Also, he is pretty durable once becoming a vampire.

    As a side note, I am trying to get the physics forum to play ball and try and calc this for us, if anyone can do it a bunch of professors who discuss math and physics as enthusiastically as we do fictional battles would resolve this….

    unfortunately so far they are not biting…

  93. Amm0vamp1r3 May 1, 2015 at 2:57 pm -      #93

    I would say during his evolution, so post Blood omen 2, between then and soul reaver. Also, he is pretty durable once becoming a vampire.

    Yeah im sure he was (exactly how durable though idk) but I doubt he was star level durable as a fledgling. Also you said post blood omen 2. How did he become star level durable during that time? And how durable was he before that?

    Thanks in advance

  94. Kitten Lord May 1, 2015 at 3:12 pm -      #94

    @Ammo

    “Also you said post blood omen 2. How did he become star level durable during that time? And how durable was he before that?”

    Well like I say, thousands, if not tens of thousands of years of evolution. And by evolution I mean vampire evolution, the sort that boosts you quite drastically. I can only imagine as Raziel said Kain entered a state of change, and one day he came out with skin like he does.

    He started off as a vampire super durable as well, maybe its a combination of Kains enhanced soul (remember, his sons became pretty powerful in their own right and they just got a fraction of it), his nature as the scion of balance (maybe that made him nigh indestructible, just like it made him immortal).

    For example as early as Blood omen he tanked hits from the reaver when faceing william the just, the reaver blasted anyone it touched into piecies yet Kain claimed he had some wounds but nothing major. The fact he can take sword blows from a powerful magic weapon, regardless of the soul devouring aspects of the blade suggests special durability, since we know basic, pre-evolved vampires could be defeated fairly easily by regular Sarafan knights.

  95. Aelfinn May 4, 2015 at 3:48 pm -      #95

    @Ragnorke
    Yes, Ragnorke, if I were to try to penetrate a large area using the same instrument I used to penetrate a small area, I would need more force and therefore more pressure. That’s not what I’m arguing. Kitten Lord argues that because Kain can survive Terapascals of pressure (something I disagree with and am currently arguing) at one part of his body, that means his whole body can survive Petapascals, which is just a blatant misunderstanding of pressure. If your skin breaks at 100 psi, that means it will break at 100 psi all over, not at 100,000 psi all over.

    So when you said this: “If the Force that you’re “hitting” the area with, is also increased in Area, proportionally to the area you’re trying to destroy.
    Then yes, the Force & Area would increase, but the pressure would remain the EXACT same.”
    , that is literally exactly what I am arguing.
    =
    =
    @Kitten Lord
    “Thats not what I said, I said you we all covered diameter, the changing is irrelevent when he puts his whole claw in at once.”

    The pressure requirements are exactly the same regardless of how fast it is done. I hope you realize that if you sped up my example so that it appeared continuous, you would make the same conclusions.
    =
    “You did not calculate any pressure at all, the brinell hardness scale which is what we were using calculates force required, not pressure required.”

    Fair enough, but I looked into the Brinell hardness scale again, and here’s the thing: I realized just how much the calc required the object be a ball. Despite the fact that the width of the sphere changes, only one diameter is used: the total diameter of the sphere itself. That means the calc REQUIRES the object be a sphere, not a cone. The entire equation is based on that simple fact, and pretending otherwise won’t make a difference. I won’t pretend to know what the right equation is anymore, but it certainly is not the brinell hardness scale one. By DEFINITION, it requires the use of a sphere. Anything that doesn’t use a sphere isn’t applicable for the equation.
    =
    “I do, you just do not understand the concepts I am using, if a bedroom floor can take 10 pounds per square inch then it can take 144x that per square foot. Its that simple, and is a basic unit of measurement but apparently in your effort to downplay LoK you throw that basic logic out, here let me help you”

    Holy shit, it is the arrogance in your total wrongness that is amusing. Tell me: what does that equals sign mean? What do those two parallel horizontal lines ACTUALLY mean? It means that 10 psi is the SAME THING as 1440 psf. That means that 1440 psf is the SAME PRESSURE as 10 psi. You keep confusing force and pressure. 10 psi means that for every square inch, you apply 10 pounds of force. 1440 psf means that for every square foot, you apply 1440 pounds of force. In case you were unaware, that is the SAME THING. You have increased the FORCE and the AREA, but the PRESSURE remains the same. It’s called a CONVERSION. That’s like saying “Ha! I ran farther than you! You only ran for 1 kilometer! I ran for 1000 meters!” Just because the number is bigger doesn’t mean you’ve changed anything. Here, take a look:
    www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=10+psi+to+pascals
    www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=1440+pounds+per+square+foot+to+pascals

    Do you see?
    =
    Also: my god, this man is earth-core tier!

  96. Kitten Lord May 4, 2015 at 6:54 pm -      #96

    @Aeflinn

    “If your skin breaks at 100 psi, that means it will break at 100 psi all over, not at 100,000 psi all over.”

    only per square inch, every square inch would be 100, every square foot would be more and so on. You cannot break “more” area with the same pressure.

    Also how do you propose I find his pressure/force reisstance per square inch if our calcs are from a square mm feat?

    “The pressure requirements are exactly the same regardless of how fast it is done. ”

    How can this be possible, clearly if someone cut through something faster then they would be exerting more pressure than someone who took a long time to do so.

    “By DEFINITION, it requires the use of a sphere. Anything that doesn’t use a sphere isn’t applicable for the equation.”

    Hold up, by what definition? show me the definition. The last couple of posts you’ve been arguing that apparently because the cone is longer and has a slower increasing surface area to the sphere it apparently make all the difference, now youve realized its not taken into account in the hardness scale at all and the final “whole” of the diameter is all that counts apparently we suddenly cannot use cones, why exactly? we just use the diameter of the cone…same thing.

    “Do you see?”

    I do but explain the facts above in the example. Rag and I were discussing a floor, if a floor can take X amount of pressure in a square inch, then it can take more in a square foot. if an object the size of a square foot was pushing down on it you would need far more force than you did to break into a square inch hence why you need far more force and therefore pressure to damage kain across a square inch.

    “Also: my god, this man is earth-core tier!”

    Slowly chipping into stone? hardly….

  97. Soulerous May 4, 2015 at 10:41 pm -      #97

    You cannot break “more” area with the same pressure.
    -I think you are misunderstanding what pressure is.
    ~
    Rag and I were discussing a floor, if a floor can take X amount of pressure in a square inch, then it can take more in a square foot.
    -No, it can take more force. The pressure requirement to break one square inch of that floor is the same pressure required to break 1 square foot or ten-thousand square feet; for each of these figures, the force required to achieve that pressure will be different.
    ~
    Pressure = Force/Area.

  98. Ragnorke May 5, 2015 at 12:58 am -      #98

    @Aelfinn
    “If your skin breaks at 100 psi, that means it will break at 100 psi all over, not at 100,000 psi all over.”

    This is correct.

    Since the “all over” term doesn’t apply to Pressure.
    Pressure as a term by its very definition is at a concentrated point. Not “all over”.

    I guess he’d survive 100,000 Newtons of Force, if it were spread around his body evenly though.

    Since Newtons of Force = Pressure x Surface Area.

  99. Ragnorke May 5, 2015 at 1:05 am -      #99

    @Kitten
    “only per square inch, every square inch would be 100, every square foot would be more and so on”

    You’re kind of mistaking Force & Pressure here.
    Pressure by default is always per square meter.

    If one part of your body gets pierced by a certain pressure, the your entire body will likely get pierced by that same pressure.
    Since the term pressure, by default, means “Force at a concentrated point”

    However, if you get pierced by a certain pressure.
    It does mean your body can withstand that Pressure x Your surface area, as a Force when applied evenly across your body.

    “You cannot break “more” area with the same pressure.”

    You kinda can. It depends on the brittleness of what you hit.

    Forexample, Superman could break an entire planet with a punch (where the surface area that he hits with would by only the size of his fist)
    And then Superman could break an entire building wall with a punch (where the surface area that he hits with would be only the size of his fist)

  100. Kitten Lord May 5, 2015 at 5:06 am -      #100

    @Ragnorke

    “It does mean your body can withstand that Pressure x Your surface area, as a Force when applied evenly across your body.”

    I think I understand where I am going wrong in that regard now its explained a bit more, so its force that increases not pressure?

    You would need “more force” to reach the pressure Kain can withstand in a square foot?

    Our calculations put Kains tank at 11 terapascals per square mmilimeter. How would you go about finding out pressure resistance or force required to do the same damage per square inch or square foot?

    “Pressure by default is always per square meter.”

    But Kain got hit in a square mm, so do I multiply up to a square meter to find out what his body can withstand?

    See this;

    www.google.co.uk/?gws_rd=ssl#q=20+terapascals+per+square+inch+to+terapascals+per+square+meter

    How does that work? Apparently pascals scale up.

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