Search And Destroy

Search And Destroy

Suggested by Rookie

Griffith (Berserk), Raziel and Kain (Legacy of Kain) and Ishamael, first time here, (Wheel of Time) will go up against Lich King Arthas (World of Warcraft), Lord Soth (Dragonlance), Vlad von Carstein and Archaon (Warhammer).

Everybody is in their prime.

Strange forces forced several characters to fight against each other.

Battlefield: Skyrim from Elder Scrolls. Team 1 starts near city Markarth and team 2 starts near city Winterhold.

Dragons and Dragonborn are not present. Both teams can have summons or undead servants if they can summon\create them, but each team can only have up to 20 servants\summoned creatures at the same time, no more.

Each team must find and destroy enemy team. No time limit, teams can not leave Skyrim territory.

Which team will win?

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178 Comments on "Search And Destroy"

  1. Ragnorke April 19, 2015 at 12:29 am -      #1

    Ishamael’s the most powerful Forsaken right?
    Could he be powerscaled with the rest? considering they all have the same power & same source of that power.

  2. Neon Lord April 19, 2015 at 12:35 am -      #2

    20 Greater Daemons of Chaos summon…

  3. Ragnorke April 19, 2015 at 12:37 am -      #3

    Does anyone here have a counter to Balefire…? Caus Balefire’s Balefire gg.

  4. Friendlysociopath April 19, 2015 at 12:45 am -      #4

    We’ve got Vlad in here? Sweet, I run Vampire Counts in Warhammer- that only 20 zombies is a low blow though man; he should easily be able to summons hundreds with a little time.

  5. itcheyness April 19, 2015 at 1:10 am -      #5

    It doesn’t say 20 zombies, it says 20 servants.

    If Vlad can get his hands on some dragon corpses he can make 20 undead dragons.

    Alternatively, he can just hack up some large animals and stitch their corpses together to make some abyssal fiends.

  6. Numinous One April 19, 2015 at 1:45 am -      #6

    Is this Ishamael before his rebirth as Moridin?
    Bit of a difference between him using the One Power or exclusively the True Power.

    Oh, nevermind.
    Everyone in their prime.
    It’s Moridin.

  7. Rookie April 19, 2015 at 2:23 am -      #7

    @Numinous One

    “Is this Ishamael before his rebirth as Moridin?”

    No. He is “Moridin” here.

    @Friendlysociopath

    “that only 20 zombies is a low blow though man; he should easily be able to summons hundreds with a little time.”

    No one on team one can spam summons, so I had to balance things somehow.

  8. Soulerous April 19, 2015 at 4:32 am -      #8

    I have no idea what Team 1 can do overall, so I can’t comment on the winner yet.
    ~
    If Vlad can get his hands on some dragon corpses he can make 20 undead dragons.
    -There aren’t any dragons around, and I don’t know if we can count on their corpses being present. Is Winterhold or the surrounding area known to have them?
    ~
    If there are creatures such as giants wandering around, those would make good servants for Arthas and Vlad. But would they truly be a worthwhile help against Team 1? I’m not sure.

  9. Rookie April 19, 2015 at 4:47 am -      #9

    @Soulerous

    “I have no idea what Team 1 can do overall, so I can’t comment on the winner yet.”

    Here some feats for Griffith:

    Created barrier:

    static.comicvine.com/uploads/ignore_jpg_scale_super/11115/111150904/3845182-lv003_ep002_p022.jpg
    static.comicvine.com/uploads/ignore_jpg_scale_super/11115/111150904/3845183-lv003_ep002_p023.jpg

    Gravity manipulation, forced arrows to miss him:

    static.comicvine.com/uploads/ignore_jpg_scale_super/11115/111157000/3845146-wind+of+time2.jpg
    static.comicvine.com/uploads/ignore_jpg_scale_super/11115/111157000/3845147-wind+of+time+3.jpg

    Warped space:

    static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/13/139933/3978451-causality+2.png
    static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/13/139933/3978453-causality+3.png
    static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/13/139933/3978454-causality+4.png
    static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/13/139933/3978455-causality+5.png
    static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/13/139933/3978456-causality+6.png
    static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/13/139933/3978457-causality+7.png
    static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/13/139933/3978458-causality+8.png
    static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/13/139933/3978459-causality+9.png
    static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/13/139933/3978460-causality+10.png
    static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/13/139933/3978461-causality+11.png

    Gravity manipulation:

  10. Total_Overkill April 19, 2015 at 8:49 am -      #10

    As a metaphysical demi-god entity that can manifest himself into a physical form, Griffiths gonna be a pain to permanently put down, but hasnt been witnessed “doing” much combat wise with his new body. Although turning events of a day dream into reality (Cutting off Zodd’s horn) is an interesting one, limited reality manipulation?

    I’m interested in what the effect of Raziel/SoulReaver would have, if any, on a being such as Soth

  11. Friendlysociopath April 19, 2015 at 9:09 am -      #11

    No one on team one can spam summons, so I had to balance things somehow.

    Oh I understand, it just makes me sad the King of Tarpit can’t get his zombie horde on; I love ending a battle with more zombies than I started with. Honestly don’t think the army of undead would really be more of an inconvenience anyways.

  12. Neon Lord April 19, 2015 at 9:09 am -      #12

    “Gravity manipulation:”

    Is it ever stated to be gravity manipulation or can it also be interpreted as telekinesis? If so, would it be considered magic, reality warping, or something else. If the latter two, then I don’t see Arthas, Vlad or Archaon stopping Griffith from crushing them into a tennis ball of meat as he does so casually in that video…

    Vlad can raise wizards, who in turn can raise their own undead. Or would be considered too tricksy and bypassing the limit?

  13. Rookie April 19, 2015 at 9:18 am -      #13

    @Neon Lord

    “Vlad can raise wizards, who in turn can raise their own undead. Or would be considered too tricksy and bypassing the limit?”

    Only 20 summoned creatures\servants are allowed in total for each team, so even yes.

    “Is it ever stated to be gravity manipulation or can it also be interpreted as telekinesis? ”

    Griffith mind-raped more than one country into thinking that he is the savior. So he have some psy-abilities.
    On the other hand we can clearly see that he dropped those guys into singularity, since nothing was left, so this looks more like gravity manipulation IMO.

    @Ragnorke

    “Could he be powerscaled with the rest?”

    Sure, why not?

  14. Friendlysociopath April 19, 2015 at 9:29 am -      #14

    I’m 90% certain everybody on Team 1 could solo Team 2.
    Griffith is BS powerful on account of being a God Hand member.

    Kain is damn-near impossible to wound for all of Team 2 that I recognize; Raziel isn’t much below him in terms of power.
    (Speaking of which, how do you determine whether Raziel loses? When his energy runs out he just fades into the spectral realm until he gets enough power to come back)

    And if Ishmael has Balefire, Team 2 is so boned.

  15. Abominatus674 April 19, 2015 at 9:34 am -      #15

    Although Archaon has shown the ability and/or inclination to throw the entire world into the warp/void/whatever, on top of being a high-tier aster with fairly reliable precog. He may also have access to greater daemons, who are either nigh-unkillable, master sorcerers, practically immune to magic and master seducers respectively.

    Vlad is essentially unkillable unless his ring is removed. Not sure how that would work with a black hole, though.

    Arthas has general necromancy and soulfuckery, not really sure how that would apply here.

    And unfortunately, I know nothing about any of the other combatants

  16. Rookie April 19, 2015 at 9:40 am -      #16

    Here’s something about Lich King:

  17. pimpmage April 19, 2015 at 11:17 am -      #17

    If arachon can summon greater demons… I would like to believe Balefire wouldn’t actually effect them. Demons exist in all points in time. I can even get quotes for that. Demons are universal concepts made manifest, and I seriously doubt erasing them back in time would do anything because they exist in all time.

  18. Kitten Lord April 19, 2015 at 1:50 pm -      #18

    I feel sorry for team 2…..

  19. Total_Overkill April 19, 2015 at 4:25 pm -      #19

    Neon Lord- “Is it ever stated to be gravity manipulation”

    The only time its ever stated as such is in the 3rd movie when each godhand member manifests themselves, their name and portfolio is displayed on screen, but it was never stated anywhere in the manga.

  20. Neon Lord April 19, 2015 at 9:17 pm -      #20

    “Although Archaon has shown the ability and/or inclination to throw the entire world into the warp/void/whatever,”

    That was with a specific artefact which is not standard equipment.

  21. GrandMaster April 19, 2015 at 11:40 pm -      #21

    I think Archaon will cause trouble for team 1. He managed to defeat Grimgor while he was Incarnate of The Wind of Ghur (basically a minor God) he easily killed Fateweaver and he fought evenly with Sigmar himself, even when Slayer of Kings was destroyed. He is also a powerful Sorcerer in his own right. Btw, because this is Prime incarnation, would Archaon have Ghal Marz? He did claim it from Valten after he killed him.

    While team 1 has a lot of powerful combatants, team 2 has 2 very powerful necromancers and a summoner, so they will have the numbers advantage while also being good fighters in their own right.

  22. Aelfinn April 20, 2015 at 2:19 am -      #22

    @Rookie
    Come on, man, give credit where credit is due. I know for a fact that a combination of at least three of these fighters come from a fight that hasn’t been published yet. I didn’t suggest it, but you should probably mention the person who did. (Demi-mod powers are nice).
    =
    ” I would like to believe Balefire wouldn’t actually effect them. Demons exist in all points in time. I can even get quotes for that. Demons are universal concepts made manifest, and I seriously doubt erasing them back in time would do anything because they exist in all time.”

    There’s Word of God that enough balefire could destroy the Dark One, AKA giant, multiversal, exist-outside-of-time, manifestation of all evil that wants to destroy all of Creation and reshape it in his image. Balefire should work on a Greater Demon.
    =
    Raziel and Kain are probably the weakest ones on Team 1 (which is saying something), and I feel like they’d have a somewhat-less-than-equal to equal fight with any particular member of Team 2. It’d be interesting in its own right to see them fight, say, Arthas, but backed up by a Forsaken and a Reality-warper, Team 2 is probably fucked.

  23. Neon Lord April 20, 2015 at 4:58 am -      #23

    “There’s Word of God that enough balefire”

    How much balefire is enough balefire? It could be something beyond what Ishamael can summon.

  24. Kitten Lord April 20, 2015 at 6:07 am -      #24

    @Aeflinn

    www.laughaton.com/uploads/images/3-I-dare-you.jpg

    “t’d be interesting in its own right to see them fight, say, Arthas,”

    You must think little of Raziel and Kain considering Arthas would be a pretty easy target for either of them, infact I wouldnt be surprised if any single member of team 1, save maybe Raziel, and just maybe could solo Team 2. Kain would sock any member of his own team……drink them all dry then use their own powers to demolish Team 2.

    @Neon

    “How much balefire is enough balefire? It could be something beyond what Ishamael can summon”

    I think hes suggesting just as vaguely as the quote concerning the Dark One that that “should” be enough, the fact that it can affect the Dark One that it can also affect Greater Demons.

    Pretty sure since it can be dodged anyone of peak human ability on Team 2 would dodge it through and could counter attack with something that is not a projectile. I am not seeing many feats or stats for team 2 so far.

  25. Friendlysociopath April 20, 2015 at 7:03 am -      #25

    Well the only member of Team 2 I’m familiar with is Vlad- and that’s from the tabletop perspective. I’d dig up the book but I don’t think Team 2 has a big chance without the others, I don’t recall extensive amounts of fluff to back Vlad up.

    Although he currently has:
    A strength score of 6, plus the general background of Vampire Lords being as devastating, if not more, than Chaos Lords on the battlefield.
    A magic ring that has a chance to bring him back to life on a 2+ (in the lore it always works). So until that’s removed, he’ll just reappear for a while.
    And Blood Drinker, a magic sword that gives him more strength and heals him whenever he deals a wound.
    Access to: Death, Shadow, Vampire, or Undeath magics as a level 3 wizard- though he mains Vampire.

  26. Kitten Lord April 20, 2015 at 7:12 am -      #26

    A lot of that sounds so mechanic though, you said there was fluff/lore, in what form? books, games etc? Whats his best feats in those?

    If destroyed while wearing his ring how long has it taken him to return?

    Blood drinker is essentially a weaker version of a bog standard LoK blood reaver without any emblems.

  27. pimpmage April 20, 2015 at 7:45 am -      #27

    “There’s Word of God that enough balefire could destroy the Dark One, AKA giant, multiversal, exist-outside-of-time, manifestation of all evil that wants to destroy all of Creation and reshape it in his image. Balefire should work on a Greater Demon.”

    Seeing as it’s effects can be undone by a second balefire against the original target within a specific time period… im calling bs. Balefire still erases you a set distance into the past. Which is completely irrelevant when you exist in every point in time at once. The way I see it happening, is that they would exist like this:

    Edit, dammit, my description got all fuddled up with some sort of coding error. using

  28. pimpmage April 20, 2015 at 7:57 am -      #28

    Here we go. Behold, my great artwork…

    imgur.com/TPv8HFz

  29. Kitten Lord April 20, 2015 at 8:05 am -      #29

    What if the demons are balefired with enough power to knock them back a few weeks if only a few seconds or minutes have passed in the battle so far?

    Considering the battle itself is a locked timeline that starts when the match begins and ends when it ends…

    So it would be like an unsummon? the demon would be send back into the pit? Where it still exists before its summoned?

  30. pimpmage April 20, 2015 at 8:13 am -      #30

    They would still exist right after the point in time where balefire struck them. They would need to get resummoned though… I assume.

  31. Friendlysociopath April 20, 2015 at 8:25 am -      #31

    A lot of that sounds so mechanic though, you said there was fluff/lore, in what form?

    Perhaps my wording was misleading- I don’t know of any fluff besides the main manuals; at least for Vlad.
    Now, for Skaven and Chaos we have several games that extensively deal with just them, Vampire Counts do not have this advantage.

    If destroyed while wearing his ring how long has it taken him to return?

    On the boardgame it’s borderline instant I think. He goes down, roll, he reappears; call it a few minutes to a few seconds for either extreme.
    He does need to appear near an allied unit but I think that’s a mechanic so he can’t just be immortal all game.

    In the manual it varies but I believe during his campaign of terror he was slain multiple times and it never really stuck until a priest of Sigmar managed to take the ring from him.

  32. Shgon Dunstan April 20, 2015 at 8:33 am -      #32

    @pimpmage
    “If arachon can summon greater demons… I would like to believe Balefire wouldn’t actually effect them. Demons exist in all points in time. I can even get quotes for that. Demons are universal concepts made manifest, and I seriously doubt erasing them back in time would do anything because they exist in all time.”

    “exist in all points in time” is… Kind of the exact opposite of helpful Vs Balefire. 😕

    If it exist in all moments at once, then then even the weakest Balefire would likely erase it’s entire existence in one go.

    “Seeing as it’s effects can be undone by a second balefire against the original target within a specific time period… im calling bs.”

    Uh… No.

    Balefire can not be reversed by Balefire. It’s effects are outside of time.

  33. Shgon Dunstan April 20, 2015 at 8:37 am -      #33

    “teams can not leave Skyrim territory.”

    Does Skyrim’s reflection in the World of Dreams count as part of Skyrim?

  34. wingedlion April 20, 2015 at 8:48 am -      #34

    “If it exist in all moments at once, then then even the weakest Balefire would likely erase it’s entire existence in one go.”

    I’m curious, why would that be the case?
    Doesn’t balefire kill you in the past? How would it be able to kill you in all points of time?

  35. pimpmage April 20, 2015 at 8:55 am -      #35

    *cough* wank, that’s that’s why. Balefire only erases you a set distance into the past. Not all time and space.

  36. Shgon Dunstan April 20, 2015 at 8:57 am -      #36

    “I’m curious, why would that be the case?
    Doesn’t balefire kill you in the past? How would it be able to kill you in all points of time?”

    Balefire doesn’t really “kill you in the past”, so much as “burn your thread(read: existence in time) backwards through time”. It hits you in the present, it just then erases your existence backwards through time. The stronger the Balefire, the farther back it erases.

    “Existing in all moments at once” would basically mean that hitting any point in their “thread” in the same as hitting every point of it at once.

    “Existing in all time at once” is after all rather different then “existing outside of time” like the Dark One does.

  37. Shgon Dunstan April 20, 2015 at 8:59 am -      #37

    @pimpmage

    :roll: says the guy who barely seems to know what it even is.

  38. Shgon Dunstan April 20, 2015 at 9:20 am -      #38

    “Does Skyrim’s reflection in the World of Dreams count as part of Skyrim?”

    …For that matter, what about Skimming?

    Could be useful Vs those hard to kill, though unlike Rand, Ishamael does have a feat of using a soul destroying weave, so there’s that.

    Though I don’t know much of the other guys, given that also unlike Rand, Ishamael doesn’t tend to carry around angreal… I’m going to take a wild guess that at least some on Team Two have more raw power then him, but he does bring quite a bit of Hax to the table. So long as the others can pick up the slack, I think Team One has pretty good odds.

  39. pimpmage April 20, 2015 at 9:45 am -      #39

    Shgon. Balefire does not destroy souls. It does not have the power to actually erase a demon from existence. Try again. The same demon can just be summoned again after erased with Balefire.

  40. Shgon Dunstan April 20, 2015 at 10:03 am -      #40

    “Shgon. Balefire does not destroy souls.”

    Never said it did. That is a quite different matter then one your running away from with your tail between your legs. -_-

    It would on the other hand mean that even a little Balefire would erase it all the way back to when it was summoned. Indeed, since the “them” that exist after their re-summoned has the same existence in time as the one hit with the balefire… It very well might destroy that body right along with the one it hit.

    There aren’t any “exist in all time at once” beings in WoT, but given the mechanics of how Balefire works, it should work just fine. The words “it’s super effective” come to mind. 😆

  41. pimpmage April 20, 2015 at 10:11 am -      #41

    You are trying to stretch Balefire mechanics to fit your need. Balefire has never shown to be able to get rid of warhammer style demons. Or at least something like them, according to you. So no, you would just be speculating based on your personal opinion of how Balefire acts.

  42. Shgon Dunstan April 20, 2015 at 10:19 am -      #42

    @pimpmage
    “You are trying to stretch Balefire mechanics to fit your need.”

    Uh… No. :roll: Your just upset that something your thought would be a Hax advantage for the demons, looks to be more a weakness then anything.

    “burns threads out of the pattern” is basic balefire 101. 😕

    A thread is somethings passage through time, so if they exist in all time at once, then, like I said, hitting any part of their passage through time would be the same as hitting any other part of it. Thus it even going so far as to effect it’s other bodies is a real possibility. Though ether way, it’s current one is screwed.

    In short, stop trying to wank off to the demons, so far you just digging them in deeper. 😛

  43. Shgon Dunstan April 20, 2015 at 10:30 am -      #43

    Also… Though I recall the spiritual beings part, can’t say I’ve ever seen this “demons exist in all time at once” bit come up in Vs before… Not to look a gift horse in the mouth or anything, but where does that come from?

    Just seems like it’s something that would get screamed from the roof tops more.

  44. pimpmage April 20, 2015 at 10:47 am -      #44

    “Uh… No. :roll: Your just upset that something your thought would be a Hax advantage for the demons, looks to be more a weakness then anything.”

    Unless you have word of God on your side, there is no point in even trying to sort through your wank. You don’t have it. There is nothing to discuss then.

    “Also… Though I recall the spiritual beings part, can’t say I’ve ever seen this “demons exist in all time at once” bit come up in Vs before… Not to look a gift horse in the mouth or anything, but where does that come from?”

    I’m relatively new to BankGambling. Only been here for like 3 years so far. I haven’t really left my mark on every single match possible… So you can see why some things have yet to be brought up yet.

    So here is the TLDR of the story I can quote later. Word bearers invade calth, a perpetual on the planet flees to safety along with a few other survivors. Word bearers know this perpetual will mess with their fate later on, so they send a demon Prince named M’Kar after them. This perpetual knows a way to cut reality and step through to other times and spaces. This demon chases the group of survivors up to like 30000 years into the past, back during world war 1 or 2. Keep in mind, this group came from the year 32000. This demon chases the group to the future, past, and present across several places in the galaxy.

  45. Rookie April 20, 2015 at 10:50 am -      #45

    @Aelfinn

    I just double checked all the matches that I made for Admin and that are awaiting to be posted and didn’t find any similar matches to be honest.

    So does anyone thinks that I should lift mass summons restriction from team 2? Will this make things more fair?

  46. Friendlysociopath April 20, 2015 at 10:55 am -      #46

    So does anyone thinks that I should lift mass summons restriction from team 2? Will this make things more fair?

    While I think you should lift the restriction, I do not believe it will honestly change the match overmuch. We could always just go two scenarios:
    Scenario 1- only the characters
    Scenario 2- no limits for summons

  47. Rookie April 20, 2015 at 11:00 am -      #47

    @Friendlysociopath

    Ok, then let’s go with scenarios. I hope this will give more chances for team 2, since they have some time before teams will find each other.
    Great idea @Friendlysociopath!

    @pimpmage

    Side question, but I want to ask about your opinion about something. Since Yggra’nya made his appearance in novels about a year or more ago and one shotted shard of N off-screen I want to made a match with him. Will Deathwing ( www.wowwiki.com/Deathwing ) be a fair opponet to Shard of Yggra’nya (only shard): wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/C%27tan
    forums.spacebattles.com/threads/yggra%E2%80%99nya-vs-kabandha-warhammer-40-000.336451/ ?

  48. Shgon Dunstan April 20, 2015 at 11:01 am -      #48

    @pimpmage
    “Unless you have word of God on your side, there is no point in even trying to sort through your wank. You don’t have it. There is nothing to discuss then.”

    …Like I said, you seem to have no idea what the hell your even talking about. -_-

    Do you even have anything more then a few half remembered Vs threads on which to base your idea of balefire on?

    Regardless…

    “Interview: Mar, 2000
    Letter to Paul Ward (Verbatim)
    Paul Ward
    Possible questions: Does balefire affect itself? Can you balefire balefire? If you balefire another person, but then you get balefired, what happens to the person you balefired?
    Robert Jordan
    The balefire weave exists wholly or partly outside time, which removes it from its own effect.
    Paul Ward
    This would have been helpful back during the balefire physics debates.”

    “Interview: Aug 30th, 1999
    Sydney Independent Theatre Q&A (Verbatim)
    Question
    Balefire is one of the most confusing things in the book, for me. I find the fine aspects of it, the whole threading together of the things that work in it… Could you be a little more elaborate on that?
    Robert Jordan
    All right. The cosmography we’re looking at here, is not the cosmography of here and now. The Wheel of Time is in its way a spinning wheel. The fabric of reality is woven by the threads. Those threads are the lines that are formed by people passing through time. Each person has a thread. The thread has its sole dimension in time, its life is in time. Those are the threads that are used to weave the fabric of reality. When balefire strikes a person, a thread here, it doesn’t simply stop the thread there. The thread burns backwards a little bit, like you just took a thread and put a match to it and it burns up a little bit before it goes out. It depends on how hot the flame is how far it’s going to burn back and what the material is opposed to. It burns up a little bit, it doesn’t just catch fire on the end and go out. So that person that was hit here is burned out of the pattern back to here. What that person did between here and here was no longer done. Other people remember seeing it. They may remember the supposed effects of it but what that person did wasn’t done. It didn’t happen, it’s not real. Now that’s a little bit of a shiver on the fabric of reality as it is. The reason that there was an unofficial agreement in the War of the Shadow to not use balefire any more, to stop using it, was simply that several cities were destroyed in that way. Hundreds of thousands of threads were burnt out from the Pattern in one go and the fabric of reality began to unravel. And even the guys going for the Dark One knew that there’s not a whole lot of point to winning if winning means there’s nothing there to rule, nothing there to win. If you burnt out the stakes, forget it. Have I made it a little clearer I hope?
    Question
    I was really referring to the scene where the wall falls on them and Rand uses balefire and they all come back to life. There’s a prophecy about Mat how he was going to die and I’m not sure whether that incident is where he dies or not.
    Robert Jordan
    Well you’re not supposed to be, are you! Once, Mat was hanging by his neck and Rand wasn’t sure whether he caught a heartbeat or not. You see, the thing is Mat doesn’t know. Mat thinks he’s got a little ace in the hole but maybe he hasn’t. Maybe he doesn’t have that ace in the hole that he has a death to give yet, and still live, the way he thinks. Maybe. There’s an acronym they use on the net, RAFO. Read and find out.
    Footnote
    RJ confirmed at Balticon XXX that the prophecy was fulfilled in Caemlyn rather than Rhuidean. ”

    Got any other gun fights you want to bring your sword to? 😕

    “So here is the TLDR of the story I can quote later. Word bearers invade calth, a perpetual on the planet flees to safety along with a few other survivors. Word bearers know this perpetual will mess with their fate later on, so they send a demon Prince named M’Kar after them. This perpetual knows a way to cut reality and step through to other times and spaces. This demon chases the group of survivors up to like 30000 years into the past, back during world war 1 or 2. Keep in mind, this group came from the year 32000. This demon chases the group to the future, past, and present across several places in the galaxy.”

    That… Sounds a hell of a lot more like just plane old time travel then “exist in all points of time at once”. o_o

  49. pimpmage April 20, 2015 at 11:13 am -      #49

    No, demons can appear across any time or space they feel like. That’s not time travel. That’s nigh omnipresence. That compounded by the fact that all demons are made of warp stuff, and the warp is a mirror of reality, it really is omnipresence, but limited to a single galaxy.

    @rookie
    Both seem to have the world shaping qualities, though I know that deathwing was pretty much only defeated by deus ex machina. Deathwing couldn’t even kill a group of hearty adventurers. And it also took him a good long while to finalize the destruction of azeroth. That c’tan quote, if it appears in a rulebook somewhere, pretty much says he can do exactly what Deathwing does but with a single thought. Also, that ctan power might not only effect planets, it’s just a showing about how large a scale it can reality warp on a whim. It could just reality warp Deathwing to death.

  50. Rookie April 20, 2015 at 11:27 am -      #50

    @pimpmage

    “Both seem to have the world shaping qualities, though I know that deathwing was pretty much only defeated by deus ex machina. Deathwing couldn’t even kill a group of hearty adventurers. And it also took him a good long while to finalize the destruction of azeroth. That c’tan quote, if it appears in a rulebook somewhere, pretty much says he can do exactly what Deathwing does but with a single thought. Also, that ctan power might not only effect planets, it’s just a showing about how large a scale it can reality warp on a whim. It could just reality warp Deathwing to death.”

    Yes, but Yggra’nya’s shard used blades and mini black hole to destroy Necron tomb world, so shard should be much weaker than full c’tan.

    But we now have info about c’tan in Tesseract Vault who teleported guy to the moon, just because he can:

    “A kilometre away, even the Chimera jumped like water in a hot pan. With a curse, Drax held it steady.

    The pict-feed was clearing up, capturing a ring of devastation around the opening pyramid. There was a being inside it, bound in chains of stellar matter as though caged within the heart of a star.
    ///
    Drax watched as the earth fell away, a vast canyon that tracked, to the precise degree, the pyramid’s rotation and the eyeline of that shackled entity. Where its gaze fell, Rhinos and Predators were flipped into the air and torn open, infantry consumed by withering waves of fire. Drax couldn’t believe what he saw, but he couldn’t look away. As he watched, a string of meteors materialised out of the sky, hanging like beads on a necklace before they spontaneously ignited, hyper-accelerated, and hammered through the Space Marine advance in huge explosions of ice and fire.

    No, Drax thought, as the pyramid continued to turn, that arc of devastation coming inexorably towards him, like an asteroid destined to cross the orbit of a sun. This being had brought the star into the cage with it.
    ///
    The transcendent shard of the c’tan took the time to study him. Not because Drax was special. He was not. It took the time because it could, because time ran to its command. The instant stretched, to an infinity if the c’tan had so willed, but time enough for Drax to comprehend.

    ///

    And in the second that followed, the Chimera flipped onto its back, its belly splitting open. Air, heat and Drax himself were ripped through the hull and out onto the surface of the moon.”

    Tesseract Vault c’tans should have at least have casual teleportation and I think that shard of c’tan>Tesseract Vault c’tan.

  51. Shgon Dunstan April 20, 2015 at 11:35 am -      #51

    @pimpmage
    “No, demons can appear across any time or space they feel like. That’s not time travel. That’s nigh omnipresence. That compounded by the fact that all demons are made of warp stuff, and the warp is a mirror of reality, it really is omnipresence, but limited to a single galaxy.”

    …That’s time travel. -_-

    “Existing at all points in time at once” would be stuff like them knowing everything that will happen, since for them, it already has happened, and is in fact happening right this very moment. More Doctor Manhattan type of stuff… Tends to lead to rather bored stiff entities all and all. 😆

  52. pimpmage April 20, 2015 at 11:37 am -      #52

    Oh, I thought you meant the complete c’tan. That’s a whole different story. Without more direct reality warping, I don’t think Deathwing could actually be killed by just a shard. And by more direct reality warping… I mean just making armies cease to exist. Not ripping them apart with telekinesis, or creating asteroids.

  53. Shgon Dunstan April 20, 2015 at 11:42 am -      #53

    Whelp. As I never got an answer one way or the other on alternate dimensions(the World of Dreams/skimming) before post 50…

    Team Two have any kind of flexible dimension hopping abilities?

    Wouldn’t be shocked, but asking anyway.

    Though ether way, the World of Dreams would be rather useful. Particularly given they don’t start out knowing where the other team is.

  54. Rookie April 20, 2015 at 11:46 am -      #54

    @pimpmage

    “Oh, I thought you meant the complete c’tan.”

    Complete would be too much, shard is more interesting to me and have actual feats: forums.spacebattles.com/threads/yggra%E2%80%99nya-vs-kabandha-warhammer-40-000.336451/

    ” I don’t think Deathwing could actually be killed by just a shard.”

    Hm… that’s harder then. Who could be an opponet for him then? I need to think more. Don’t want another stomp.

    Here’s some feats for Lich King:
    BankGambling.com/9696-lich-king-vs-szass-tam/

    And here is for Soth: factpile.com/7836-lord-soth-vs-eragon/

  55. pimpmage April 20, 2015 at 11:46 am -      #55

    OP can still make clarifications past post 50. Just not changes, unless everyone agrees on the change. It’s still alright.

  56. pimpmage April 20, 2015 at 11:49 am -      #56

    Maybe try goku or some other dbz character vs Deathwing? Those guys have soul powers right? Maybe pre movie naruto, or someone from bleach.

  57. Rookie April 20, 2015 at 11:54 am -      #57

    @Shgon Dunstan

    World of Dreams should work the same way in Skyrim as it works in Wheel of Time verse. It is just a type of magic after all.

    @pimpmage

    “Maybe try goku or some other dbz character vs Deathwing? Those guys have soul powers right? Maybe pre movie naruto, or someone from bleach.”

    I don’t want to make a match about Deathwing, I want a match for Yggra’nya’s shard, since Yggra’nya is such a cool name and he have metal manipulation.

  58. pimpmage April 20, 2015 at 12:00 pm -      #58

    Maybe vs a team from the airbender verse?

  59. Shgon Dunstan April 20, 2015 at 12:08 pm -      #59

    @Rookie
    “World of Dreams should work the same way in Skyrim as it works in Wheel of Time verse. It is just a type of magic after all.”

    On the one hand, this will be VERY helpful to team one.

    On the other… Perhaps in a rather vague sense, but… In WoT metaphysics, the World of Dreams is the space in the Pattern between the assorted dimensions in the WoT multiverse.

    It’s like saying that mirror-verse-Spock has a goatee is “a kind of magic”. 😆

    But Skyrim in the WoD would be a reflection of it in the waking world, and still kind of “in” it more or less, just… To the side… Sorta.

  60. Commander Cross April 20, 2015 at 12:42 pm -      #60

    @Shgon at #59

    I take it you found ‘Space Pirate Ryoko vs Nappa’ somewhere over there.

    We now bring you back to our regularly-scheduled festival where one side takes turns to hax-stomp the other and vice-versa.

    If Side B is allowed to get their Numbers ready, it’d be mainly a matter of whether or not they can overwhelm one of the Forsaken and Griffith actually.

    I can describe what I’d recall on the common grounds the Forsaken and the Godhand would have with each other another time, for now what sort of Hax does Side B offer in here?

  61. Friendlysociopath April 20, 2015 at 1:03 pm -      #61

    So for scenario 2 (no summon cap) what can everyone bring to the table?
    Vlad should be able to field upwards of 200 zombies within a a day or two at most. They’re cannon fodder mind you, nothing more; but he can do it. More time = more zombies/skeletons.
    I’m not going to mention him turning vampires at the moment, but if he were to do so Team 2 could start having a massive magic advantage since they could branch out into the other Winds of Magic.

    How effective his spells are would vary based on whether he had supplementary magic items or not; I’ll be using minimal stats without the items in the list- giving him those items would skyrocket his magic.

    I guess it should be mentioned that Vlad’s magic (Lore of the Vampires) will restore vitality to himself or his allies whenever he successfully casts a spell.
    Spell list:
    Invocation of Nehek– Heals all undead units in range (would seem to max out at a bit less than longbow range). Zombie and Skeleton units will actually increase in size.
    Vanhel’s Danse Macabre– Eh, buff spell, makes the undead faster and more accurate in combat.
    Hellish Vigour– Buff spell, makes you tougher in combat.
    Gaze of Nagash– Magic Missile-style spell. Further than longbow range. 2D6 Strength 4 hits on target. In non-mechanic terms, it’ll strike a regular man and most of his unit dead; decent chance of killing a hero too.
    Raise Dead– Separate from Invocation, this allows you to actively raise a new unit of skeletons or zombies.
    Curse of Years– Useless, just ages everyone in the area until dispelled.
    Wind of Death– Vortex of wind that moves as fast as an arrow every turn, hurting (killing) everything it touches. No armor save, but wards and magical shields would work fine.

    Now granted, WH Magic would seem to be very EC with WoT Magic; so those two running around trying to undercut each others magic is entirely a possibility.

  62. Rookie April 20, 2015 at 1:31 pm -      #62

    @Friendlysociopath

    “Vlad should be able to field upwards of 200 zombies within a a day or two at most. They’re cannon fodder mind you, nothing more; but he can do it. More time = more zombies/skeletons.”

    He can also make wraiths\ghosts.

  63. Friendlysociopath April 20, 2015 at 3:02 pm -      #63

    He can also make wraiths\ghosts.

    Well, I was going more by the Raise Dead spell; plus only Skeletons and Zombies can exceed the amount you start with in battle, so he can’t make Wraiths as easily. Still, given his team a veritable army of undead wouldn’t be amiss. They wouldn’t be useful for much just from Vlad’s powers alone but he’d have them.

    And Archaon can summon Demons… which are currently being disputed in exactly what they can do. I guess I’ll mention WH wizards can disrupt magic in a similar fashion to WoT, so that’s going to be all sorts of fun.

  64. Ragnorke April 20, 2015 at 3:13 pm -      #64

    @Pimpmage
    “Seeing as it’s effects can be undone by a second balefire against the original target within a specific time period… im calling bs.”

    You’re calling bs against the word of god…?
    That’s a first.

    “Balefire still erases you a set distance into the past. Which is completely irrelevant when you exist in every point in time at once.”

    Once erased from existence, you no longer “Exist” in the future.
    The Balefire just needs to be strong enough to erase them back to the origin point of time.
    Which i admit is difficult and generally undo-able. But not impossible.

    “you would just be SPECULATING based on your personal opinion of how Balefire acts.”

    Every fight on BankGambling throughout its history has been nothing more than speculation…
    So i don’t see your point.

    “Shgon. Balefire does not destroy souls. It does not have the power to actually erase a demon from existence”

    …That’s actually exactly what Barelfire does.
    It removes your Thread (your essence of life, your soul, your existence, your source, etc..) from the Pattern (reality).
    It doesn’t just “kill” you back to a certain point, it actually removes you from existence back to that certain point.

    “The same demon can just be summoned again after erased with Balefire.”

    Pretty sure it’s word of god that anything killed with Balefire can’t be brought back, since their Thread no longer exists in the Pattern.
    You can’t bring something back to life that no longer exists.
    Unless Demons have been resummoned after being removed from reality (and we’re talking multiversal reality, not universal), they can’t be resummoned here.

    “No, demons can appear across any time or space they feel like”

    If this is the case, then they’re actually just existing in one point in time at a time.
    So which is it, do they exist throughout all of time? Or do they get to pick any point in time/space and exist there for however long they feel like?
    Caus those two directly contradict each other. Pick one.

  65. Kitten Lord April 20, 2015 at 4:56 pm -      #65

    @Rag

    “It removes your Thread (your essence of life, your soul, your existence, your source, etc..) from the Pattern (reality).”

    Could have sworn that the soul still survives, it just comes back to the pattern later, I think I read that somewhere concerning the dead, is there anything like that in WoT (to Aeflinn or Shgon?), what happens to the dead?

    Also, as for Demons threads being on the pattern, are they even considered alive by normal means? Further, they exist previous to the match, their just being summoned for the match, but as far as Balefire is concerned its cast and stuck within the match which means it can only push you back in time to the beginning again.

    Its not like the warp has an issue on demon numbers anyway, just summon tons more. I wonder, could someone on Team 2 use a counterspell to reflect the balefire back onto ishmael, reverting anything he did, including balefires?

    Not sure if they have a counterspell but with several magic users its an idea.

  66. Klondike Bar April 20, 2015 at 5:14 pm -      #66

    Um Kitten Lord? Did someone hack your account? Cause Kain is on team one and it seems ooc to me to see you argue against him in any way.

  67. Ragnorke April 20, 2015 at 5:17 pm -      #67

    “Could have sworn that the soul still survives, it just comes back to the pattern later, ”

    Yea someone would need to confirm this. AFAIK the only way to bring back someone killed by Balefire is by Balefiring the person that did the killing.

    “Also, as for Demons threads being on the pattern, are they even considered alive by normal means?”

    Well inanimate objects have threads in the pattern too. Not sure you need to be alive to have your thread removed.

    ” Further, they exist previous to the match, their just being summoned for the match, but as far as Balefire is concerned its cast and stuck within the match which means it can only push you back in time to the beginning again.”

    I thought there was a rule regarding this. Universes don’t exist before the match.
    The match takes place in a neutral location, in a neutral universe, where the time-line begins at the point of the matches start.

    However, if you’re trying to say the demons would be summoned from a different universe which doesn’t follow this time rule.. Well.. That could be more heavily debated.

    “Its not like the warp has an issue on demon numbers anyway, just summon tons more.”

    Yea i guess so.
    Was just discussing the potential interactions.

    ” I wonder, could someone on Team 2 use a counterspell to reflect the balefire back onto ishmael, reverting anything he did, including balefires?”

    Depends on the nature of the spell.
    If it’s anything that can be physically touched by the balefire, it wouldn’t work, because the balefires effect makes it so that the spell was never cast.
    However if it’s not really a physical thing that can be interacted with, then sure i don’t see why not.

    “Not sure if they have a counterspell but with several magic users its an idea.”

    It would need to be rather specific though.
    And more of a “reflect” spell rather than just counter.

  68. pimpmage April 20, 2015 at 5:30 pm -      #68

    So about demons. Many authors describe their existence different ways. They could be small pieces of an alternate dimension, they could be literally be concepts with physical forms. They could be made of nightmares people dream about. They could be made of souls or emotions too. All depending on what author you want to pull from. Don’t ask me which authors say what, I honestly don’t pay attention to those details. Sorry.

  69. Kitten Lord April 20, 2015 at 7:13 pm -      #69

    “Um Kitten Lord? Did someone hack your account? Cause Kain is on team one and it seems ooc to me to see you argue against him in any way.”

    Ha! indeed, but I am bored, and besides at the moment I feel like team 1 is having too much of an easy victory. Rooting for Kain is one thing but rooting for him in a match where hes likely not even needed is just plain unfair.

    So I want to see if Team 2 has anything worth fighting with.

  70. Klondike Bar April 20, 2015 at 7:19 pm -      #70

    Fair enough. I thought that literally Balefire was unstoppable in any way unless you had a tardis. I guess I thought that it would even affect magical effects and uncast them essentially.

  71. Neon Lord April 20, 2015 at 7:30 pm -      #71

    “Vlad should be able to field upwards of 200 zombies within a a day or two at most. They’re cannon fodder mind you, nothing more; but he can do it. More time = more zombies/skeletons.”

    Vlad should be able to raise as many zombies as he wants as long as he has the bodies. I know a novel where a vamp just started getting this ridiculously huge horde simply from marching through a ton of graveyards and villages.

    I posted some Archaon feats here:
    factpile.com/9842-archaon-everchosen-vs-lich-king/comment-page-2
    I would post more from the second book, but Griffith still looks too OP against team 2 unless his gravity manipulation counts as ‘magic’ and can be stopped with anti-magic.

  72. Kitten Lord April 20, 2015 at 7:34 pm -      #72

    Team 2 could have done with a swap out for the LK at least. I never found LK that impressive.

  73. Friendlysociopath April 20, 2015 at 7:39 pm -      #73

    So I want to see if Team 2 has anything worth fighting with.

    Well, it’s a literal tide of undead vs hax. Hax wins 9/10.

    Is Griffith’s power not counted as magic? Why?

  74. Neon Lord April 20, 2015 at 7:46 pm -      #74

    In the Warp, time is not time. It’s strange, but the concept of time and ‘unravelling it backwards’ wouldn’t work in the Warp because complications. Once in realspace, Daemons are then forced to abide by natural world laws (for the most part), such as time. So as I see it, Balefire would only ‘unravel time’ back to the summoning point and ‘unsummon’ the Daemon. Fortunately, this wouldn’t really count as banishing since the Daemon would never have been summoned in the first place, so the 100-year-cannot-be-resummoned rule wouldn’t take effect and the Daemon can just be resummoned.

    If it’s a Greater Daemon of Tzeentch, then as a supreme magic user it should be able to do something to counter Balefire, or at least just use a force-push equivalent spell and redirect it away/back.

    If the Changeling gets summoned, one of Team Two can expect to get backstabbed by a friendly farmer in a village they are passing through.

    “Is Griffith’s power not counted as magic? Why?”

    Well apparently its something more like reality warping, but I have yet to get clarification on the point.

  75. Numinous One April 20, 2015 at 8:09 pm -      #75

    Does anything happen to the Daemons if the summoner gets killed?
    Seems like that is the easiest way to resolve this issue.

    Though I’m sure Moridin could quite easily replicate Rand’s army breaking feat here.
    He exclusively uses the True Power which is supposed to be 10x more powerful and like 100x more addictive than the One Power, from memory anyway, could be wrong.

  76. Neon Lord April 20, 2015 at 8:19 pm -      #76

    “Does anything happen to the Daemons if the summoner gets killed?
    Seems like that is the easiest way to resolve this issue.”

    No. Some Daemons find it funny to turn on their summoner actually. But that wouldn’t happen with Archaon.

  77. Friendlysociopath April 20, 2015 at 9:16 pm -      #77

    …So I’m looking over Archaon’s stuff (So help me I love Chaos and the Vampire Counts, favorite two armies and they’re both right here 😀 )
    Here’s some of his equipment:

    The Mark of Chaos: This shows the bearer to be the chosen of all four Chaos Gods and brings the benefits of all four onto the Everchosen.
    The Armour of Morkar: Extremely resilient and dark black, this armour was worn by the first Everchosen of Chaos, who was killed by Sigmar.
    The Eye of Sheerian: When mounted in the Crown of Domination, the Eye grants the bearer potent powers of prophecy and omniscience.
    Dorghar, Steed of the Apocalypse: A massive, daemonic horse, Dorghar was claimed at the Gates of Chaos, stolen from the Daemon Lord Agrammon.
    The Slayer of Kings: A huge blade with the raging soul of a captive daemon, U’zhul, bound inside it.
    The Crown of Domination: A symbol of absolute authority to the forces of Chaos. Found in the First Shrine to Chaos at the World’s Edge Mountains. Archaon learned of its location from Be’lakor. Archaon fought a Bloodthirster (Greater Daemon of Khorne) single-handedly to obtain it.

  78. Aelfinn April 20, 2015 at 9:37 pm -      #78

    “I just double checked all the matches that I made for Admin and that are awaiting to be posted and didn’t find any similar matches to be honest.”

    There’s one that included Griffith, Ishmael, and Arthas.
    =
    “You must think little of Raziel and Kain considering Arthas would be a pretty easy target for either of them,”

    Arthas has something like an insta-death spell. He’s not easy.
    =
    “Kain would sock any member of his own team……drink them all dry then use their own powers to demolish Team 2.”

    You’re joking right? A heavy reality-warper who can turn him into a meat-ball and a Forsaken who can destroy him half a dozen ways to Sunday before Kain can react?

  79. Commander Cross April 20, 2015 at 10:03 pm -      #79

    @Councilor Aelfinn at #78

    That’s the fight that LadyRamkin suggested you speak of?

    Also regardless of whether or not Kain would get all the powers of the rest of Side A on-the-spot or if he has to take just enough blood and it takes time to get enough of all the Powers, draining dry the rest of Side A shouldn’t be on Kain’s to-do list at the moment.

    No need for me to go repeat the common grounds Ishmael and Griffith have with each other here in-depth, both can warp the Fabrics of Reality and both are either Anti-christ variants altogether or the next-‘best’/worst things their respective ‘realities’ would offer either.

    Not to mention that Lord Soth and Vlad Von Carstein in particular likely got some Aces and Spades up their sleeves for show, Arthas and Archaeon too for that matter despite theirs being not as either well-hidden or as obvious.

    As much as I’d find it interesting to see Kain and/or Raziel go to gut any Non-Broly!-tier+ Anti-christ variant or above, this isn’t exactly the best kind of thread to ask about it, Archaeon notwithstanding if he counts as one.
    —–

    Unless further notice says otherwise, keep Kain or Raziel from the likes of Dark Schneider from Bastard!? for self-preservation’s sake, unless you wanna tell me either of them are on par with 616 Doctor Strange or (Original!-)Tenchi Masaki.
    It’s for their medical insurance in those regards.

  80. Friendlysociopath April 20, 2015 at 10:32 pm -      #80

    Seriously, we need to just have an understanding that Team-Killing is either off or on; this happens for every teamfight q-q

    Do we even know if Griffith can die? Guts hasn’t killed a single member of the God Hand has he?
    Also, just to be clear, this is God Hand Griffith right? Not the human?

    There’s one that included Griffith, Ishmael, and Arthas.

    Mostly 1v1s and What Ifs for a bit, I don’t see matches for any of those 3.

  81. Rookie April 21, 2015 at 12:58 am -      #81

    @Aelfinn

    “There’s one that included Griffith, Ishmael, and Arthas.”

    Hm. I can only see matches that are made by me, so this must be why I can’t see a match that you are talking about.

    @Friendlysociopath

    “Guts hasn’t killed a single member of the God Hand has he?”

    He will never will. But if you destroy God Hand main body they are banished to astral realm.

    “Also, just to be clear, this is God Hand Griffith right? ”

    Yes.

  82. Numinous One April 21, 2015 at 1:27 am -      #82

    “No. Some Daemons find it funny to turn on their summoner actually. But that wouldn’t happen with Archaon.”

    So balefire Archaon then.
    Delete the summoner, daemons never summoned, headache and chaos avoided.

  83. Kitten Lord April 21, 2015 at 8:30 am -      #83

    @Aeflinn

    “Arthas has something like an insta-death spell. He’s not easy.”

    Both of them are already dead….

    “You’re joking right? A heavy reality-warper who can turn him into a meat-ball and a Forsaken who can destroy him half a dozen ways to Sunday before Kain can react?”

    Ah, I thought you were pulling my leg, you just do not know the character, fair enough. This isnt the thread for it but if one comes up ill reply on how Kain would quite easily handle those on his own team….

  84. Shgon Dunstan April 21, 2015 at 9:19 am -      #84

    Lot of stuff brought up, so post will likely miss some. Anyway…

    @Friendlysociopath
    ” I guess I’ll mention WH wizards can disrupt magic in a similar fashion to WoT, so that’s going to be all sorts of fun.”

    WH wizards often spam dozens of dispels an instant, while still launching multiple attacks, and putting up defenses?

    Not sure of the Raw Power level of some of the others, but Multitasking is one field in which Channelers shine. 😛

    @Ragnorke
    “…That’s actually exactly what Barelfire does.
    It removes your Thread (your essence of life, your soul, your existence, your source, etc..) from the Pattern (reality).
    It doesn’t just “kill” you back to a certain point, it actually removes you from existence back to that certain point.”

    Thread=/=soul. Nor does Balefire some a soul from reincarnating. Indeed, the only reason the Dark One can’t bring back the Forsaken killed by it, is because while imprisoned, the DO must attach himself to the flow of time in order to make sense of the Pattern(there’s a scene of Rand doing this when he went outside of time to confront the DO, but I’m too lazy to hunt it down and type it up at the moment). Basically their souls had already moved on before the DO knew they were dead. The DO might even still be able to grab them if the Balefire was weak enough.

    @Kitten Lord
    “Also, as for Demons threads being on the pattern, are they even considered alive by normal means?”

    As the WoG I gave said, a “Thread” is a things passage through time. It’s got nothing to do with “alive”. Balefire has the same “erase backwards through time” effect on objects that it does on people.

    ” I wonder, could someone on Team 2 use a counterspell to reflect the balefire back onto ishmael, reverting anything he did, including balefires? ”

    Unlikely. What with first needing to come into contact with it and all. There is a counter weave for it(basically works by healing/restoring the Pattern), but the normal Weave cutting Weave wouldn’t have a chance.

    @Ragnorke
    “Yea someone would need to confirm this. AFAIK the only way to bring back someone killed by Balefire is by Balefiring the person that did the killing.”

    Which would do… Nothing… As I’ve already given the WoG for even. -_-

    Hell, even trying to time travel your way around it is likely to only result in giving the Pattern a headache… You wouldn’t like the Pattern with a headache. 😆

    “Depends on the nature of the spell.
    If it’s anything that can be physically touched by the balefire, it wouldn’t work, because the balefires effect makes it so that the spell was never cast.
    However if it’s not really a physical thing that can be interacted with, then sure i don’t see why not.”

    Doesn’t really need to be physical for Balefire it erase it, after all, it works just fine on weaves.

    @Neon Lord
    “In the Warp, time is not time. It’s strange, but the concept of time and ‘unravelling it backwards’ wouldn’t work in the Warp because complications. Once in realspace, Daemons are then forced to abide by natural world laws (for the most part), such as time. So as I see it, Balefire would only ‘unravel time’ back to the summoning point and ‘unsummon’ the Daemon. Fortunately, this wouldn’t really count as banishing since the Daemon would never have been summoned in the first place, so the 100-year-cannot-be-resummoned rule wouldn’t take effect and the Daemon can just be resummoned.”

    The Balefire wouldn’t stop them from being summoned. Balefire only erases what it hits and the direct actions thereof. The summoner would of still summoned, and if the balefire stops at that point, the demon would of still responded… It would of just then of promptly been erased. Though mind, memory is unchanged. As after all, Balefire doesn’t travel back in time and kill something, it retroactively erases somethings existence in time.

    “If it’s a Greater Daemon of Tzeentch, then as a supreme magic user it should be able to do something to counter Balefire, or at least just use a force-push equivalent spell and redirect it away/back.”

    Don’t know enough about them to saw there’s nothing they can do, but… A Force Push like spell would do less then nothing Vs Balefire.

    “Though I’m sure Moridin could quite easily replicate Rand’s army breaking feat here.
    He exclusively uses the True Power which is supposed to be 10x more powerful and like 100x more addictive than the One Power, from memory anyway, could be wrong.”

    The TP isn’t any stronger then the OP, it just has a bigger rush.

  85. Ragnorke April 21, 2015 at 9:50 am -      #85

    @Shgon
    “Doesn’t really need to be physical for Balefire it erase it, after all, it WORKS just fine on weaves.”

    Most weaves still have physical effects.
    Lightning is still a physical thing, so is fire, so is air.
    Therefor Balefire can interact with them, and undo them.

    Is a spell were to have no physical properties at all, the Balefire would have nothing to “touch” or interact with.
    It would simply be countered due to reality-warping-esq magic.

    “Which would do… Nothing… As I’ve already given the WoG for even.
    Hell, even trying to time travel your way around it is likely to only result in giving the Pattern a headache… You wouldn’t like the Pattern with a headache”

    I’m 99% sure it was done in the books.

  86. Shgon Dunstan April 21, 2015 at 9:57 am -      #86

    “Most weaves still have physical effects.
    Lightning is still a physical thing, so is fire, so is air.
    Therefor Balefire can interact with them, and undo them.

    Is a spell were to have no physical properties at all, the Balefire would have nothing to “touch” or interact with.
    It would simply be countered due to reality-warping-esq magic.”

    And you know… Just blast right through the weaves themselves, which certainly aren’t “physical”. Case in point, there’s nothing whatsoever physical about a Weave cutting Weave.

    “I’m 99% sure it was done in the books.”

    Then your 1% not wrong.

  87. Ragnorke April 21, 2015 at 11:27 am -      #87

    “And you know… Just blast right through the weaves themselves, which certainly aren’t “physical”.”

    How would a physical stream of balefire undo a spell which would never make contact with the balefire?

    “Case in point, there’s nothing whatsoever physical about a Weave cutting Weave.”

    So someone used Balefire to undo a weave cutting spell…?
    Go ahead and post that please.

    If that actually happened, i have a feeling it was the caster of the weave cutting spell that got balefired, thus undoing any previous things he cast.
    But if the spell was specifically designed to cancel or reflect the next spell targeted his way, without having any physical form, i still don’t see how balefire would overcome that.
    It would never reach the target, nor would it ever interact with the spell.

    “Then your 1% not wrong.”

    Yea, Mat was killed by Rahvin, and then brought back by Rand balefiring Rahvin.
    For some reason i thought Mat was killed with Balefire too.
    Nevermind.

  88. Shgon Dunstan April 21, 2015 at 12:15 pm -      #88

    “How would a physical stream of balefire undo a spell which would never make contact with the balefire?”

    Ether the spell, or at least the spells effect, would have to at some point make contact, or it can’t very well “do” anything to the Balefire, now can it? At that point, said spell/effect gets erased, having done nothing to the Balefire.

    “So someone used Balefire to undo a weave cutting spell…?
    Go ahead and post that please.”

    :roll:

    Try to fallow please.

    No idea if the burning backwards through time bit works on weaves. Hell, who knows if threads have threads(“that which turns the Wheel of Time” and all that), BUT weaves are erased by Balefire. As shown just by the fact that there is only one weave that can stop it. Even Rand’s super shield that cocoons him in a weave was said to “stop anything short of balefire”. If the cutting weave worked on it, it would be far less of a threat then it is. As channelers could just cut it before it even hit them, like they would so many other attacks.

    Hell, if it didn’t erase weaves, all you’d have to do to block it, is make a solid wall of threads. As two flows can’t occupy the exact same space, it would be stopped in it’s tracks.

  89. Kitten Lord April 21, 2015 at 1:14 pm -      #89

    @Shgon

    ” As channelers could just cut it before it even hit them, like they would so many other attacks.”

    Unless their reaction/cast times were too slow. Balefire although not that fast, is at least I would say “killing curse” speed or at peak bullet speed.

    “is make a solid wall of threads. As two flows can’t occupy the exact same space, it would be stopped in it’s tracks.”

    This sounds easier said than done.

  90. Klondike Bar April 21, 2015 at 1:16 pm -      #90

    Is this team willing to donate any blood to Kain? Cause if he got some Balefire powers, then well. Poor everyone.

    Also quick question. Would the Doctor be able to do something to undo balefire with the Tardis?

  91. Kitten Lord April 21, 2015 at 1:25 pm -      #91

    Blood may fall as a natural course of the battle. People are bound to bleed. If he does a blood shower he will likely get some from his allies just by the nature of the spell as I do not think it can distinguish friend or foe.

    Be interesting what a combo of his allies could give Kain. True power combined with God hand powers….nice…

  92. Ragnorke April 21, 2015 at 1:26 pm -      #92

    @Shgon
    “Ether the spell, or at least the spells effect, would have to at some point make contact, or it can’t very well “do” anything to the Balefire, now can it? At that point, said spell/effect gets erased, having done nothing to the Balefire.”

    This is exactly my point though, not all spells have any relation to a physical plane.
    Scarlet Witch (marvel) for example often uses her magic to just flat out warp reality to her will.
    There’s nothing there for the Balefire to interact with. At all.
    Are you saying a physical stream of Balefire can interact with a spells nonexistent physical effect, to bypass it…?

    “BUT weaves are erased by Balefire.”

    Then weaves are things which exist on the physical plane.
    Mind you, things like light & heat are still physical.

    “Even Rand’s super shield that cocoons him in a weave was said to “stop anything short of balefire”.”

    But it’s a cocoon which can be interacted with!
    That’s exactly what i’m trying to say.
    If someone were to punch Rand with that shield, they’d be able to feel that shield stopping them. Thus it’s a physical thing.

    Are you getting the point now?
    Not all spells have physical effects or any relation to the physical world. Many work by sheer reality warping.
    I’m not saying anyone in this match has that form of magic, but in theory it WOULD stop Balefire.

  93. Ragnorke April 21, 2015 at 1:27 pm -      #93

    “Is this team willing to donate any blood to Kain? Cause if he got some Balefire powers, then well. Poor everyone.”

    I think you need to be born with the ability to use the One Power.
    Or you need to be given the ability to use the True Power by the Dark One himself.

    Even in Kain does gain the ability (which i’m not sure he can) it would take a long time to figure out how to use, let alone be effective.
    He’s more likely to kill himself with it then make any difference to the enemy team.

  94. Rookie April 21, 2015 at 1:28 pm -      #94

    @Kitten Lord

    “True power combined with God hand powers”

    Honestly I am not sure that Griffith have any blood at all now.

  95. Shgon Dunstan April 21, 2015 at 1:30 pm -      #95

    @Kitten Lord
    “Unless their reaction/cast times were too slow. Balefire although not that fast, is at least I would say “killing curse” speed or at peak bullet speed.”

    …-_-

    Dude. I know you know they do that with lightning weaves. Balefire isn’t lightning speed. No matter how you think they pull it off with lightning, it applies even more so with beams of Balefire.

    “This sounds easier said than done.”

    Not particularly, it would just be making a whole bunch of threads/a few overly long ones, wouldn’t even be splinting focus between multiple weaves. Indeed, one example of such is Rand’s super shield itself, which expressly doesn’t block balefire.

    “Is this team willing to donate any blood to Kain? Cause if he got some Balefire powers, then well. Poor everyone.”

    Channeling requires a soul capable of it. Just giving him the blood itself wouldn’t do much… Indeed, does he even have a soul? The bridge between a channeler and the One Power is attached to the soul.

    Edit:

    “I think you need to be born with the ability to use the One Power.”

    Basically. It’s a DNA thing, but also a soul thing like I said. having only one side of it want help him any.

  96. Friendlysociopath April 21, 2015 at 1:41 pm -      #96

    Is this team willing to donate any blood to Kain?

    Neither Kain nor Alucard absorb powers just by getting a “small” amount of blood; it requires quite a bit as just about every time that has happened the person they drank from died.

    Also, exactly what are the requirements for blocking Balefire? Because as far as I know nothing blocks Balefire except the spell that blocks Balefire. How? Why?

  97. Shgon Dunstan April 21, 2015 at 1:41 pm -      #97

    “This is exactly my point though, not all spells have any relation to a physical plane.
    Scarlet Witch (marvel) for example often uses her magic to just flat out warp reality to her will.
    There’s nothing there for the Balefire to interact with. At all.
    Are you saying a physical stream of Balefire can interact with a spells nonexistent physical effect, to bypass it…?”

    There’s a difference between warping space, and casting dispel. -_-

    “Then weaves are things which exist on the physical plane.
    Mind you, things like light & heat are still physical.”

    Actually, no. Weaves aren’t “on the physical plane” there in fact expressly unaffected by said plane.

    “But it’s a cocoon which can be interacted with!
    That’s exactly what i’m trying to say.
    If someone were to punch Rand with that shield, they’d be able to feel that shield stopping them. Thus it’s a physical thing.”

    Made up of weaves, weaves that the balefire would cut right through.

    “I’m not saying anyone in this match has that form of magic, but in theory it WOULD stop Balefire.”

    “Are you getting the point now?
    Not all spells have physical effects or any relation to the physical world. Many work by sheer reality warping.
    I’m not saying anyone in this match has that form of magic, but in theory it WOULD stop Balefire.”

    “Reality warping”=/=a dispel spell like what was being talked about.

  98. Kitten Lord April 21, 2015 at 1:43 pm -      #98

    @Shgon

    “Balefire isn’t lightning speed. No matter how you think they pull it off with lightning, it applies even more so with beams of Balefire.”

    Its been a long time since I saw any WoT quotes on the matter of lightning speed but the only one I recall is Rand, who is a special case in almost every way, he is just better than other weavers.

    Maybe your average target for balefire is not neceserily going to be able to stop it?

    “Indeed, one example of such is Rand’s super shield itself, which expressly does block balefire.

    Sorry does or does not? because if it does then it can be blocked?

    “Channeling requires a soul capable of it. Just giving him the blood itself wouldn’t do much… Indeed, does he even have a soul? The bridge between a channeler and the One Power is attached to the soul.”

    Indeed he does. Kain gains magical powers like TK or the ability to immolate his enemies from blood. In Blood omen he gained a number of magic powers like his beguile illusion as well as enhancements to his magic and what not.

    @Rag

    “it would take a long time to figure out how to use, let alone be effective.”

    Kains no doubt been using magic longer than most of the magic users in WoT, why would WoT magic be too hard for him to use?

    “Basically. It’s a DNA thing, but also a soul thing like I said. having only one side of it want help him any”

    If its even in their DNA then Kain would definitely get access to it, he has both a soul, powerful magic capabilities already and with a drink their power/dna would add to his own.

    @Friendly

    “Neither Kain nor Alucard absorb powers just by getting a “small” amount of blood”

    Depends on what you call small, it just so happens that his enemies he kills but concerning the Hylden Seer, she gave him her blood and he drank a “fair” amount but she did not seem in any danger of even going faint. He can pump tons of blood from someone with a gesture nowadays.

  99. Shgon Dunstan April 21, 2015 at 1:48 pm -      #99

    “Also, exactly what are the requirements for blocking Balefire? Because as far as I know nothing blocks Balefire except the spell that blocks Balefire. How? Why?”

    It’s already past my bed time, but in short… Three main things that block in the books.

    1: heartstone. Too tired at the moment, so maybe Aelfinn might feel like getting into it.

    2: World of Dreams reality warping. Which doesn’t so much “block” it or anything, just bends it away from the one not wanting to be hit by it.

    3: the counter weave, which like I said earlier, heals and restores the Pattern(existence). Basically nulling and even reversing the effects of it.

  100. Ragnorke April 21, 2015 at 1:51 pm -      #100

    @Shgon
    “There’s a difference between warping space, and casting dispel. -_-”

    Who are you to say that every fictions “dispel” spell is the same?
    What if in some fictions it’s done via warping reality? Without the use of anything that can be elementally compatible to “Threads” or “Weaves”.

    “Actually, no. Weaves aren’t “on the physical plane” there in fact expressly unaffected by said plane.”

    Yet the example you gave of Rands shield is very affected by physical things.
    So which is it?

    “Made up of weaves, weaves that the balefire would cut right through.”

    Weaves which PHYSICAL THINGS can interact with.
    Balefire was able to cut through it because it was a REAL thing which EXISTED in the PHYSICAL plane, and thus the Balefire could INTERACT with it and TOUCH it.

    This wouldn’t be the case if the “shield” was done via reality warping.

    If for example Scarlet Witch were to simply change reality in a way where there was no longer a stream of Balefire coming towards her.
    There, done, she dispelled the Balefire.

    “Reality warping”=/=a dispel spell like what was being talked about.”

    …Well i just explained how they can be the same thing.

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