Obi-Wan Kenobi Vs Cloud Strife

Obi-Wan Kenobi Vs Cloud Strife

Suggested by Nsl98

Obi-Wan Kenobi (Star Wars) will go up against Cloud Strife (Final Fantasy)

Kenobi is allowed EU, no time manipulation or polymorph for Cloud.

They fight on the MCU Helicarrier.

Who will win?

Related Posts:



Read before commenting! We welcome constructive comments and allow any that meet our common sense criteria. This means being respectful and polite to others. It means providing helpful information that contributes to a story or discussion. It means leaving links only that substantially add further to a discussion.

Comments being disrespectful to others or otherwise violating what we believe are common sense standards of discussion can lead to the banhammer getting used. You can read more about our comments policy here.



« Previous 1 2

148 Comments on "Obi-Wan Kenobi Vs Cloud Strife"

  1. Friendlysociopath May 17, 2015 at 9:59 pm -      #101

    And Kitten Lord wonders why people tell him he’s full of shit sometimes.

    For Cloud to get off any magic, assuming he even starts with it. which again not proven

    Right, Cloud has materia in his earliest game, Cloud has materia in the movie, Cloud’s team has materia in the most recent game. Cloud has materia. End of story. It’s cute that you’re trying so hard to deny him his magic just because you know it instantly haxes a win, but you’re just getting sad now man.

    And it doesn’t matter which materia he has, because just about all of them would destroy Kenobi.
    Furthermore, this constant whining about “You can’t prove he has that spell” is very stupid considering Cloud can bring 8 materia without equipping a single one to his weapon; and again, just about every materia is something Obi-Wan can’t beat.

    And reactions and reflexes mean little when your opponent is hitting you with “force” that you cannot “dodge”.

    You can dodge the Force, what a silly statement. We see Vader throw shit at Luke with the Force and Luke dodges fine. It’s telekinetic waves; and fairly slow ones at that, big deal.

    Cloud got an mental resistance?

    Yeah, can eventually fight off Sephiroth’s mind-rape.

    Hell Clouds sword is tk able and Kenobi is one of those types to use that against him.

    So far not really seeing how Kenobi has enough force behind his pushes to overcome the force Cloud outputs when he jumps or attacks.
    Some people don’t seem to understand this point so I’ll make it very clear:
    Kenobi Force Push: 1,000 pushing points
    Force Cloud jumps with: 1,001 pushing points
    So long as Cloud can jump forwards with more total force than Kenobi can push against, the Force Push will just slow him down, not reverse him.

    And Cloud plus complete Fusion Blade is just about a ton in pure weight btw, not counting whatever force he’s jumping with.
    Also, did nobody bring up that Cloud apparently fell at terminal velocity after hitting Bahamut SIN and landed without a scratch?

    Moving a ship

    He screws with the landing gear, he doesn’t shove the ship if that’s what you’re getting at.

  2. Zazax May 17, 2015 at 11:13 pm -      #102

    “Its called prediction, the guy was firing at him through the fight, hardly a surprise that he fies again.”
    Whether it’s prediction or not is totally irrelevant. He doesn’t actually start moving until the bullet is fired. By the time it’s reached him, he’s moved out of the way. That’s bullet-timing.
    This is not difficult to understand.

    “Well its a damn shame no player is here, so we go with what the character is proven to do…which so far is to fight with his sword..”
    No, we don’t. That’s not how this works. I literally quoted the appropriate rules at you.

    “Take note of this and read it carefully, WHAT CLOUD WANTS NOT WHAT YOU WANT”
    And Cloud has no defined preference, so this statement is completely meaningless and merely an attempt to obfuscate the fight.

    “Theres a reason why you would use a sword, shield or w/e to block an incoming blow, to reduce the force actually hitting you. It has to pass through clouds sword, which a big huge thing to get to him, by nature of its size its going to be taking a lot of the pressure since its so flat….like a shield.”
    Again, lern 2 physics. In this case Cloud is the projectile, and that enormous sword is actually adding to his weight, causing him to fall with increased energy. When he hits Sephiroth, his sword stops. Fine. But *he’s* still falling with all that energy, and since he doesn’t smash his face into his sword, the only conclusion we can possibly draw is that he absorbs the entire impact with his arms. That’s both a strength feat (since he’s able to do it in the first place) and a durability feat (since his arms don’t immediately shatter from the impact). And he does it without flinching.

    “Also breaking a pipe is as I said, not impressive….”
    Cloud falls for about 13 seconds, which means he’s falling at very close to terminal velocity when he hits. With the added weight of his sword he’s hitting the ground very hard.
    And, again, doesn’t matter that it’s a pipe. It matters that it’s steel and he leaves a waist-deep impact crater in it.

    “For Cloud to get off any magic, assuming he even starts with it. which again not proven.”
    It has been, even by quoting the rules themselves.

    “He would have to hope Kenobi just sits there letting him do it because Kenobi only has to gesture to stop him by throwing him face first into the ground…”
    Why would Kenobi have to stand there? Cloud can hit moving targets. And since Kenobi has no defense against any of his magic whatsoever he just needs to do it once.

    “I did, it shows someone who is not Cloud casting with a 1 second or so channel some sparklers.”
    It’s actually less than a second. It takes the amount of time it takes Zack to extend his hand.
    And the fact that it’s not Cloud makes no difference. FF7 itself shows us materia have the same cast time regardless of who uses it. Hell, it’s Zack, so even if there is some kind of skill to using materia, Cloud has it anyway, since he absorbs all of Zacks skills.

    “Now lets see summons and the “death” spell?”
    Summons take a few seconds, but they’re always longer to cast than other materia. Death isn’t in Crisis Core, unfortunately.

    “Then he just has his sword. You cant give characters stuff that is not standard. The rule is talking about standard equipment.”
    That’s why that rule I quoted at you specifically dealing with the vast number of powers/equipment displayed by video game characters exists.
    Admin himself has repeatedly ruled that Cloud gets all his materia in FP matches.

    “Like all the scenes youve posted of Cloud, him swinging his sword to block shots fired, swords coming at him.”
    You missed the point entirely, which was to post examples of him explicitly favoring his sword over his magic. The entirety of Advent Children has him unable to use magic at all, so it’s not a valid example.
    I’m going to go out on a limb here and say you can’t find any not from AC, because they don’t exist. Because this ‘he won’t use magic’ thing is something you’ve just made up on the spot when all evidence says otherwise.

    “I have yet to see him just tank a blow”
    You have, like the impact when Kadaj turns into Sephiroth, you’ve just been ignoring them because they inconvenience your argument. There’s also the bit during the first bike chase when Yazoo shoots him point-blank in the face and all it does is knock his goggles off.

    “and when he is his from Sephiroth he gets stabbed through…”
    Note that Sephiroth is capable of casually slicing through the Junon Cannon (this gun: img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110407233130/finalfantasy/images/5/51/Sister_Ray-Crisis_Core.jpg Note that that’s a city it’s built into, for a sense of scale) with one hand, and Cloud isn’t immediately pulverized and turned into red mist when Sephiroth stabs him. This is a lot more impressive than you seem to think, largely because due to our argument about Cloud’s impact into Sephiroth, I don’t think you understand how kinetic energy works.

  3. Limbo Lowk May 18, 2015 at 12:04 am -      #103

    “Right, Cloud has materia in his earliest game, Cloud has materia in the movie, Cloud’s team has materia in the most recent game. Cloud has materia. End of story.”

    Actually that’s kind a wee bit bullshit. Tony stark doesn’t get every gadget he has at home just because he has them despite current incarnation showing he doesn’t carry them around with him. That isn’t standard equipment.
    ===
    “You can dodge the Force, what a silly statement. We see Vader throw shit at Luke with the Force and Luke dodges fine. It’s telekinetic waves; and fairly slow ones at that, big deal.”

    For throwing stuff. Grabbing someone by the force doesn’t really require a dodge able blasted wave
    youtu.be/BT6Sd0qfR-Y?t=3m4s
    Pretty much like normal tk
    ===
    “So far not really seeing how Kenobi has enough force behind his pushes to overcome the force Cloud outputs when he jumps or attacks.”

    He has pushed Grievous so hard he dented the metal he flung him into and lifted a ship.
    Found this thing where he breaks off a large piece of machinery and hold a float
    static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/124590/3869417-9bpt4.gif
    static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/124590/3869418-9bptt.gif

    He has also stalemated with Anakin in a brute force(heh force) duel. He does stuff like redirecting a escape pod into the sun
    static.comicvine.com/uploads/ignore_jpg_scale_super/11117/111178634/4309195-anakin+moves+pod+1.jpg
    static.comicvine.com/uploads/ignore_jpg_scale_super/11117/111178634/4309196-anakin+moves+pod+2.jpg

    He doesn’t have to overcome or stop Cloud ourright, not when Cloud has less ways of maintaining the strength of his. You keep thinking of it has a stop him exactly or not at all. Beside being able to divert him, changing his direction; Obi Wan can slow him to a stop.

  4. Limbo Lowk May 18, 2015 at 12:10 am -      #104

    So I noticed the hellicarrier battlefield. Does getting knocked off the Hellicarrier count as a BFR?

  5. Alpha or Omega May 18, 2015 at 12:33 am -      #105

    If the opponent cannot get back on, then yes, it’s a BFR.
    The question is(if BFR becomes a thing), how high is the helicarrier from the ground and which place is the helicarrier above?
    /
    Also, I want to point out something.
    The current incarnation for Obi-Wan Kenobi is an old man that can still wield a lightsaber. He would still fit under the rules.
    Does he still have those feats shown in this thread?

  6. Friendlysociopath May 18, 2015 at 12:47 am -      #106

    Actually that’s kind a wee bit bullshit

    Cloud’s latest incarnation would be Dissidia if you really want to push that angle, and he has materia then too.

    Grabbing someone by the force doesn’t really require a dodge able blasted wave

    But that’s what Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon use.

    Beside being able to divert him, changing his direction; Obi Wan can slow him to a stop.

    Slow him yes, stop him I don’t believe so.

    He would still fit under the rules.

    Well crap.

  7. Limbo Lowk May 18, 2015 at 12:51 am -      #107

    “The current incarnation for Obi-Wan Kenobi is an old man that can still wield a lightsaber.”

    … Damn. Well the force is something I don’t think degrades with age but pretty sure agility does…
    youtu.be/-7hBZNsPnyg?t=2m16s
    I mean unless your Sheev Palpatine. Man that was one spry old guy.

  8. Limbo Lowk May 18, 2015 at 1:03 am -      #108

    “But that’s what Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon use.”

    Obi wan has use the regular method of lifting someone before.
    I don’t reacl any waves of force that could be dodged, That’s more of a starkiller thing.
    They point at something and it goes flying
    static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/124590/3957067-a9rkn.gif

    Lifts
    static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/124590/3957060-a9rhr.gif

    Stops somebody
    The boy rose, fists clenched, and charged. Summoning the Force, Obi-Wan took one hand off the controls and raised the other. The boy could not move. His eyes were wide.

    “You’ll get your gravsled back. Just don’t move.”

    Pulls
    “If he were really a Jedi he could have disarmed you in two seconds,” a dark-haired woman said scornfully. “I don’t believe-”

    Obi-Wan waved his hand. Wil’s blaster flew from his hand into Obi-Wan’s.

    Holds
    Using the Force, Obi-Wan created a wave behind them. He reached out to every molecule of water, calling on the Force to bind them into a giant, cresting black wave.
    ===
    “Cloud’s latest incarnation would be Dissidia if you really want to push that angle, and he has materia then too.”

    Dissidia was canon? Was the flying thing canon to or just game mechanics?

  9. Limbo Lowk May 18, 2015 at 1:19 am -      #109

    Sorry missed one.
    “Slow him yes, stop him I don’t believe so.”

    Forgive me if my lack of understanding involving physics is showing but without a means to jump again while in mid-air(Unless the dissida thing) wouldn’t slower make it easier to bring him to a stop? I mean I could understand having some difficulties of the initial push off but wouldn’t gravity + slower speed help Kenobi’s case. With less momentum it would quickly becomes more of an issue of just Cloud’s weight that Kenobi is would be dealing with right?
    ===
    Not that it matters, we’ll probably have to wait until Star Wars Rebels third season before we see Old Ben kenobi in action.

  10. Alpha or Omega May 18, 2015 at 1:21 am -      #110

    “I don’t reacl any waves of force that could be dodged, That’s more of a starkiller thing.”
    /
    youtu.be/J6qwQslIufE?t=539
    And Force Push, that’s the only other thing that uses a wave.

  11. Friendlysociopath May 18, 2015 at 1:25 am -      #111

    Was the flying thing canon to or just game mechanics?

    Have you watched Advent Children? I ask this in all seriousness, fully half of Cloud’s fights are him being in the air and not falling at all.
    I wouldn’t be surprised in the least; I actually have a theory about that- Sephiroth has telekinesis because he can fly and levitate objects. It’s also how he drops half of the tower on Cloud.
    Cloud can’t quite fly like Sephiroth, but he can fall forever and be completely fine from it (Seriously, look how far up he is for the Bahamut SIN fight), and it would explain how he can somewhat control where his swords go when he’s interchanging them.

    Dissidia was canon?

    Debatable; as producers when asked said, “Decide on your own.” But Cloud is always presented with materia in his appearances, which is why he should have it here. He had materia in Advent Children. It had to be removed because otherwise there would be literally no contest between Cloud and the mini-Sephiroth(s).

    Also, just throwing this out there; official canon guide (that reveals stuff like FFX world is the same as FF7) says Cloud’s base Omnislash happens in the blink of an eye. This is also not hyperbole as we can see Sephiroth make 8 strikes in the blink of an eye in several of his appearances; so we know it’s at least plausible. Omnislash version 5 and 6 are so fast that someone who can parry base Omnislash perfectly can’t react at all to it.
    And official transcript of movie says Kadaj threw lightning bolt at Cloud, which Cloud then dodged.
    Would that qualify as Word of God? It would make sense, Cloud’s supposed to be better than Vincent (one of Vincent’s primary antagonists in DoC attacks Cloud then realizes she can’t win and runs away); and Vincent moves so fast he teleports.

    wouldn’t slower make it easier to bring him to a stop?

    If he could continuously keep it up, yes. I was under the impression the Force was a sort of waves attack, not a constant pressure. Then again I know almost nothing of the EU so I might be wrong.
    Also, if Cloud thinks he can’t reach Obi there’s no reason not to go for magic or limit breaks;

  12. Limbo Lowk May 18, 2015 at 1:27 am -      #112

    “And Force Push, that’s the only other thing that uses a wave.”

    Friggin Dooku messin up my arguments. Well at least Obi Wan does have other means of manipulation then just that.

  13. Limbo Lowk May 18, 2015 at 1:35 am -      #113

    “Have you watched Advent Children? I ask this in all seriousness, fully half of Cloud’s fights are him being in the air and not falling at all.”

    I remember a lot of jumping and maybe some physic defying slow falling but only recall Seph actually levitating.
    In Dissida they were pretty much capable of kicking of air which would help if that were legit canon.
    ===
    “Debatable; as producers when asked said, “Decide on your own.””

    I like/hate it when they do that. I mean from a story point it’s nice to know you decisions mattered. From a debating point it fucks things up.
    ===
    “But Cloud is always presented with materia in his appearances, which is why he should have it here. He had materia in Advent Children. It had to be removed because otherwise there would be literally no contest between Cloud and the mini-Sephiroth(s).”

    And Batman has a hard light gun and a supersuit. Ironman has time travel, teleportation tech, and for a time several other suit he couldn’t call on. But they leave that stuff at home like Cloud did so we don’t give it to them as standard.

  14. Friendlysociopath May 18, 2015 at 1:59 am -      #114

    I remember a lot of jumping and maybe some physic defying slow falling but only recall Seph actually levitating.

    Let’s see:
    Bahamut fight has Cloud being well over 100 stories up in the sky and falling back down without an issue.
    When he fights Kadaj and the crew the first time he’s basically kept aloft for about half of the fight.
    When he fights Kadaj the final time they’re both hanging in the air trading blows for a while.
    and against Sephiroth he’s totally not falling for a significant portion of the fight, he just sort of hangs there.
    Plus his swords eject to where he needs them, every time without fail- so I’m willing to say he has some sort of low-grade telekinesis. Just a theory though, based on him and Sephiroth both being SOLDIER, and after Sephiroth Cloud is next best.

    From a debating point it fucks things up.

    True, which is why I don’t use it for powerscaling so much as confirming things we already know. Like Cloud and Tifa carrying materia with them. I do use it to say the characters are mostly equal, which SE kind of backs me up on actually.

    But they leave that stuff at home like Cloud did so we don’t give it to them as standard.

    But Cloud and company all carry them when they need to go into a fight; and are presented as having them whenever they appear aside from the one movie that represents a very small portion of the FF7 timeline.
    And even ordinary people buy and use the things so we know it’s not out of place to use materia.
    Vincent has no problem with using them in Dirge, which is the latest FF7 product.

    Actually, I take that back, that’s the little bike game on the phone now, which still has Cloud using materia in it.

  15. Alpha or Omega May 18, 2015 at 2:01 am -      #115

    “Friggin Dooku messin up my arguments. Well at least Obi Wan does have other means of manipulation then just that.”
    /
    At least he isn’t forceful about it. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
    /
    “Ironman has time travel, teleportation tech, and for a time several other suit he couldn’t call on.”
    /
    Can confirm.
    Ironman also made a time travel/jump tech on his left hand sort-of-recently, but he was crazy prepared for it.

  16. DokuSaki May 18, 2015 at 2:43 am -      #116

    Dissidia is canon.
    This is an educated guess of standard equipment. Weapon, First Tsurugi. Armour: ziendinch. (here is what is does in the game, 100 Defence 15 Defence % 98 Magic Defence 18 Magic Defence% Materia Slots: None Effect: Strength and Magic +20. Halves Fire, Ice, Lightning, Earth, Poison, Gravity, Water, Wind, Holy, Cut, Hit, Punch, and Shoot damage.)
    And a ribbon: protects for status effects.
    As for materia, We can go with fireaga, thundaga and a curaga.

    The thing you have to realise is that cloud does not carry hardly any materia around because he knows it’s got a negative effect on the planet and damages it. Thus he is hesitant to use it. however if he’s in this battle field he will spam that shit because he knows there is no consequences to it. If he is not prepped for this is then disregard this entire monolog.

    Another thing to note is he can summon the ultima weapon at will from the lifestream. If he does use that. obi is fucked. not matter how much he can tank or how good his defense is.

  17. Limbo Lowk May 18, 2015 at 2:46 am -      #117

    “At least he isn’t forceful about it. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)”

    That was terrible and yet I wish I had thought of it first.
    ===
    “But Cloud and company all carry them when they need to go into a fight”

    And Tony had a giant building size transformer that he brings into battle.
    Just saying seems a little unfair Cloud is getting stuff he no longer carries on him normally. I bet Master Chief would love to bring some of his other UNSC toy to a fight.
    ===
    So in dissidia what kind of magic does he do becasue all I remember is meteor rain. And going by his move set he didn’t seem the lean on the magic to much.

  18. Kitten Lord May 18, 2015 at 2:53 am -      #118

    @Sera

    “The amount of force needed to bend the steel plate he fell into makes that calculation impossible by itself. A plate that large would require a significant number of tons in order to bend, even if it was only an inch thick.”

    How do you know its a steel plate or its thickness? I made it easier on myself by calculating the force Cloud would output as he hit the object, that way I do not have to assume what the object is, what its made from or its thickness.

    Are you saying Cloud is really heavy?

    @Friendly

    “And Kitten Lord wonders”

    He wonders why he should care about poisoning the well fallacies, especially from someone who stretches the imagination for silly arguments and denies the most obvious proof that hes wrong….

    “Cloud has materia in his earliest game”

    Which is not latest incarnation.

    “, Cloud has materia in the movie”

    Which he does not carry as a standard.

    “Cloud’s team has materia”

    His team is not here.

    “just because you know it instantly haxes a win”

    Kinda like the force? And hardly, Obi is not going to give him any breathing space to stand there making any gestures.

    “And it doesn’t matter which materia he has,”

    And it does not matter whether he can bullet time or not, that does not stop me from calling out Zazex on his bull claims.
    @Zaz

    “Whether it’s prediction or not is totally irrelevant. ”

    It is because even if he does start moving only after the bullet is fired it still is aim dodging, because he still knows Loz is fireing, and he can still predict the trajectory.

    “And Cloud has no defined preference,”

    Then you cannot of your admission claim he is going to start with magic.

    “Fine. But *he’s* still falling with all that energy”

    And any force on impact is still hitting his sword first. Also how heavy is clouds sword? I can give you an impact force calc just like I did for sera, then we can add his sword into the equation.

    “Summons take a few seconds, but they’re always longer to cast than other materia. Death isn’t in Crisis Core, unfortunately.”

    I thought so, which brings me to asking what spells he can actually cast quickly, assuming I allow you the affiliation between Zack and cloud and the cast times being the same, hes only got sparklers in that video…..

    “Admin himself has repeatedly ruled that Cloud gets all his materia in FP matches.”

    Ill need that quote before I allow it myself. And make sure its definitely for all matches as a standard, I know Admin sometimes makes rulings for singular threads.

    We then need to know what ones he has equiped assuming he has all the materia. Remember, no prep time.

    “You missed the point entirely,”

    No you did, probably because you took it out of context. I was not discussing there of his tendancy to use his sword but more to use it to defend himself, I was pointing out I cannot see much feats of durability because he always uses his sword to block. If he cant block the force then hes in trouble.

    ” you’ve just been ignoring them ”

    Actually, i have been calcluating them, and their not that impressive as you think.

    ” pulverized and turned into red mist when Sephiroth stabs him.”

    Yeah your falling into the pressure over force trap, since Sephiroth slices into him its not a good feat at all, it beats his resistances.

  19. Zazax May 18, 2015 at 6:29 am -      #119

    “It is because even if he does start moving only after the bullet is fired it still is aim dodging, because he still knows Loz is fireing, and he can still predict the trajectory.”
    If you don’t understand how little sense this makes, I’m afraid I can’t help you.
    He starts moving when the bullet is fired. By the time the bullet reaches him, he’s out of the way. Therefore he’s moved out of the way only in the time it took the bullet to reach him. Therefore he can move fast enough to dodge bullets. Therefore he’s a bullet-timer. That’s what this argument consists of. It wouldn’t matter if he had precognition that let him see the bullet coming hours in advance. He still physically moved fast enough to get out of the way. That’s what we’re arguing. Predicting the line of fire has literally no relevance to the discussion.
    Please try to keep up.

    “Then you cannot of your admission claim he is going to start with magic.”
    Yes we can, because the rules say he fights at optimum capacity within his CIS (of which he has none relevant to this point), and current incarnation (which has his stuff). Optimum capacity means opening with magic.
    It’s like how in fights involving the Dragonborn from Skyrim people don’t devolve into arguments over whether or not he has all his Shouts and/or would use them. He’s a video game character, and per the rules of the site he has them all (unless stated otherwise in the stipulations) and will use them as appropriate.

    “And any force on impact is still hitting his sword first.”
    That doesn’t matter. Cloud and his sword are the ones carrying the energy here. The sword stops after hitting Sephiroth by transferring its kinetic energy into Sephiroth (hence the crater), but Cloud doesn’t and needs to absorb the force of impact, which he does.
    It’s like jumping off a skyscraper with, say, an indestructible shield. If you use the shield to cushion your landing, the shield will stop, but you’ll keep going and promptly die from the impact.
    This is super basic stuff, man.

    “I thought so, which brings me to asking what spells he can actually cast quickly”
    Materia all have about the same cast times. In this video we see him break out Wall (one of the best defensive buffs in the game, second only to Shield, which isn’t in Crisis Core) in about the same amount of time, and the first time *while moving*. We also see Energy, one of the top-tier attack spells, second only to Ultima. It also takes only about a second or so.
    I do recall Ultima taking a bit longer, but really, it’s not the best choice even if it is awesome.
    I was also apparently wrong. Death is in Crisis Core, I just don’t remember ever seeing it, and can’t seem to find any videos of it. As you may imagine, searching for ‘Crisis Core Death Materia’ or similar variations tends to just bring up lots of videos about Zack’s death at the end.

    “assuming I allow you the affiliation between Zack and cloud and the cast times being the same,”
    Which you should, since A) He canonically gains all of Zack’s skills and B) Materia cast times don’t seem to vary from person to person at all. Even in the original game everyone casts them the same speed.

    “Ill need that quote before I allow it myself.”
    I’m having ‘nam-esque flashbacks to the last time I had to do this for you.
    First quote:
    factpile.com/840-cloud-strife-vs-link/#comments
    Comment #5, from admin himself. That by itself should be more than enough, but I’ve got a second one to back it up.
    Second quote:
    BankGambling.com/2019-link-cloud-vs-kratos-dante/comment-page-6/#comments
    Comments 504-506, for context. 506 is the big one.
    That sufficient for you?

    “We then need to know what ones he has equiped assuming he has all the materia. Remember, no prep time.”
    So, easy. Master Magic and Summon (maybe Command, but it’s not needed), Elemental + Fire on his armor, Final Attack + Phoenix (or Final Attack + Revive/Life/Whatever it’s called). Anything else like Mime, W-Magic, etc is superfluous, but nice to have.

    “No you did, probably because you took it out of context. I was not discussing there of his tendancy to use his sword but more to use it to defend himself”
    Stop moving the goalposts. That’s not what we were talking about and you know it. This discussion was about whether Cloud favors his sword over his magic, and you have still provided no valid examples or evidence whatsoever to back up your claim that he does. You’ve only ever referenced scenes where Cloud doesn’t have his magic at all for one reason or another (it’s before he has any, or it’s been stolen) aside from one scene so brief and with enough conditions attached it doesn’t support either side.
    So, get on that. You keep telling us that Cloud prefers using his sword if he’s given a choice. Try actually proving it.

    “I was pointing out I cannot see much feats of durability because he always uses his sword to block. If he cant block the force then hes in trouble.”
    We see him get hit a number of times. He gets shot point-blank in the face (with no damage whatsoever) during his first encounter with the SHM, he absorbs the impact of hitting Sephiroth in the linked scene, he tanks Bahamut SIN’s energy ball for almost 30 seconds with no visible damage (although a bit of pain). We’ve given you a number of durability feats. You’re just ignoring them.
    As far as ‘being in trouble’ goes, how so? We still have no way for Kenobi to actually kill Cloud. His lightsaber’s just going to heal him, and he has CIS preventing him from crushing him with the Force (if he even could; Sephiroth tries to rip the entire party to pieces with TK at the end of FF7 and it doesn’t work, and this guy has sufficient TK to bring down the entire Shinra HQ with a gesture). And that’s just killing him once. He needs to kill him at least 6 times, and even that’s ignoring his recovery ability, like his disgusting amount of self-heals.

    “Actually, i have been calcluating them, and their not that impressive as you think.”
    You’ll excuse me if I’m hesitant to take you at your word, since you’re the one trying to convince us that moving out of the way of a bullet after it’s been fired is somehow not bullet-timing, that Cloud hitting Sephiroth hard enough to dent the steel underneath him up to his waist without flinching is somehow not a durability feat, and that flying through a giant energy ball that obliterates entire buildings for 30 seconds is totally harmless.
    As I said before, the downplay is strong with this one.

    “it beats his resistances.”
    You’re going to have to run that one by us again. What resistances specifically are you referring to?

    I also feel I should mention that for most of Advent Children Cloud is slowly dying of Geostigma (he’s cured just before his final battle with Sephiroth), so most of the feats from previous battles in the film (the bullet-dodging video, the getting shot in the face, etc) are him fighting while sick with a disease that is slowly killing him. Just for comparison’s sake.

  20. Zazax May 18, 2015 at 7:37 am -      #120

    So apparently I forgot to post the actual video I was referencing when talking about Wall and Energy. Derp.
    www.youtube.com/watch?v=MrCnPYvLI1c
    Starting at about 2:30 or so. We see the dodge-Wall almost the moment the fight starts.

  21. Friendlysociopath May 18, 2015 at 12:32 pm -      #121

    He wonders why he should care about poisoning the well fallacies

    I’m not poisoning the well, I’m saying you’re deliberately stupid on occasion when it suits you.

    especially from someone who stretches the imagination for silly arguments and denies the most obvious proof that hes wrong

    Like a certain Kitten Lord who denies bullet-timing when someone is actively slicing bullets out of the air in almost every fight?

    Which he does not carry as a standard.

    He does whenever there’s a problem. Do we just scoop characters out of bed or something? Standard equipment is what they normally have, which for Cloud is materia as he has it in more incarnations than he does not
    FF7 base game: materia
    FF7 Crisis Core: materia
    FF7 Advent Children: No materia
    FF7 Dirge of Cerberus: materia
    FF7 G-Bike: materia
    FF7 Dissidia: materia
    Advent Children is the one and only time he doesn’t have materia, as such it is indeed standard equipment for him to have and use it.

    Kinda like the force? And hardly, Obi is not going to give him any breathing space to stand there making any gestures.

    Obi really doesn’t get a choice in the matter.

    Also how heavy is clouds sword?

    Never actually stated… if I had to take a guess the Fusion Blades should be somewhere between 700-900 pounds I should think. The exact weight, material, and even size of the swords is never mentioned.
    Main sword: 250+ (based on weight of Buster Sword, this is bigger)
    Semi-main sword: 200 pounds
    2x Sawtooth sword: 100 pounds each
    2x Small Fat sword: 75 pounds each

    That’s the lowball numbers btw.
    And to think, he swings that entire assembly with just one arm too.

  22. Karen Starr May 18, 2015 at 12:56 pm -      #122

    Is there like canon stating that the buster sword is 200lbs? Because I’d go as far to say as it’s much lighter… like 70-80lbs. With maybe his advent children sword being about 100 altogether. Which is still insanely impressive to be able to hold and use easily with a single hand.

  23. Friendlysociopath May 18, 2015 at 1:16 pm -      #123

    Is there like canon stating that the buster sword is 200lbs?

    Actually it should be heavier considering several Shinra troops literally could not budge the thing when they tried to lift it, together at the same time, in Last Order.

    (Key points italicized because they’re key, not out of spite or malevolent intent.)

    A replica made out of aluminum is 80 pounds; the real thing would be vastly heavier, especially since the replicas I’ve seen that are 80 pounds are not nearly as thick (from side of the sword to the other side) as the Buster Sword is presented to be.

    Steel is approximately 2.5 times denser than aluminum, so that’s 200 pounds.
    Iron is nearly 3 times denser, that would be 240 pounds.

    The base sword for the Fusion Blade is actually longer than the Buster Sword, and about the same width- so it should be heavier. It doesn’t help that the Buster Sword’s size varies based on media.

  24. Karen Starr May 18, 2015 at 1:35 pm -      #124

    Ah makes sense.

  25. Friendlysociopath May 18, 2015 at 1:44 pm -      #125

    And since I was watching it- here Kitten, more bullet-timing, and this time he doesn’t even use a sword so you’ll have to come up for a new excuse for this one.
    youtu.be/a4bHE0WFMwE?t=5m
    Look at that, dozens of people firing assault rifles at him; not one hit him.

    Seriously though, for the community at large; is something being labeled as a “Lightning Bolt” in the official script enough to qualify as Word of God?
    If so, Cloud can dodge lightning; because in the Final Fight (ha) with Kadaj the script says Kadaj threw a lightning bolt at Cloud, who evades it.

  26. Kitten Lord May 18, 2015 at 2:00 pm -      #126

    @Zaz

    “He still physically moved fast enough to get out of the way. ”

    Obviously, but hes not reacting to the bullet itself, hes reacting to the gunman.

    “because the rules say he fights at optimum capacity”

    Yeah your bastardizing the rules, the rules do not take away the characters MO. If you cannot prove him starting with magic then he does not suddenly go bloodlusted and use anything and everything you want him to.

    “If you use the shield to cushion your landing, the shield will stop, but you’ll keep going and promptly die from the impact.”

    Your example is horrible because thats not what is happening here, Cloud is not falling from a skyscraper.

    “It also takes only about a second or so.
    I do recall Ultima taking a bit longer, but really, it’s not the best choice even if it is awesome.”

    “Materia all have about the same cast times. ”

    You contradict yourself here, if the cast times “do” vary then you cannot just fallaciously affiliate all the materias cast times. I want to see the ones your claiming he will use.

    “That sufficient for you?”

    Admin said that characters get their equipment from their games, our discussion is about what actually belongs to Cloud and what he actually has, hence the “standard equipment” rule. Also as for your second quote, Admin said Cloud gets his materia, again, what is clouds materia, what do we know he owns? and this does not cover your belief he will open with spells.

    “So, easy. Master Magic and Summon (maybe Command, but it’s not needed), Elemental + Fire on his armor, Final Attack + Phoenix (or Final Attack + Revive/Life/Whatever it’s called). Anything else like Mime, W-Magic, etc is superfluous, but nice to have.”

    Can I see a quote or source that states Cloud as a standard has this materia on him at all times?

    “That’s not what we were talking about and you know it.”

    I was talking to Seradon about how Cloud rarely tanks damage himself and uses his sword to block. Where did I mention that to you?

    “aside from one scene so brief and with enough conditions attached it doesn’t support either side.”

    It kind of does though, it being brief does not change the fact Cloud who, can apparently very quickly cast in less than seconds according to you uses his sword, even when seeing someone relatively slowly coming down upon him. He had plenty of time to do something. This proves CiS at the very least, and a lack of standard materia likely as well.

    “You’re just ignoring them.”

    Infact I am using them against you. Your making claims and affirmations for things you do not know, you cannot prove the force or calc the force of any of those things.

    “You’re going to have to run that one by us again. What resistances specifically are you referring to?”

    Pressure, as in, Sephiroth cut into him, you claimed it was a feat for durability, I counter by pointing out to you he did not tank it, he got stabbed.

    @Friendly

    ” I’m saying you’re deliberately stupid on occasion when it suits you.”

    jazykove.fairlist.cz/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/pot-calling-the-kettle-black.jpg

    “denies bullet-timing when someone is actively”

    Actively standing still and his shooters still cannot hit him.

    “Standard equipment is what they normally have, which for Cloud is materia as he has it in more incarnations than he does not”

    In those games you listed , give me the materia he begins with, that the player has no choice in from the latest incarnation please. Then we may agree on what materia he has on him here.

    “Never actually stated… if I had to take a guess the Fusion Blades should be somewhere between 700-900 pounds I should think. The exact weight, material, and even size of the swords is never mentioned.”

    Thats a shame.

    “Look at that, dozens of people firing assault rifles at him; not one hit him.”

    Half a dozen people were shooting at him without him even moving on the train, guess what? none hit him there either…..

    Face it, the Shinra soldiers are useless, they killed each other.

    “If so, Cloud can dodge lightning;”

    Lightning from the sky? or is it magic lightning without a known speed, ala Skyrim electricity blasts?

    Also, if Cloud was fast he wouldnnt have gotten shot in the face would he, hardly a bullet timer if your getting shot in the face, saved by a pair of goggles…

  27. wingedlion May 18, 2015 at 2:17 pm -      #127

    @Kitten
    “Obviously, but hes not reacting to the bullet itself”

    Um, yes he is? He’s dodging the bullet after it was fired. How is that not reacting to a bullet?

    “hes reacting to the gunman.”

    No. Reacting to a gunman will not allow you to react to a bullet after it was fired. That doesn’t even make any sense.

  28. Kitten Lord May 18, 2015 at 2:23 pm -      #128

    @Wing

    “No. Reacting to a gunman will not allow you to react to a bullet after it was fired. That doesn’t even make any sense.”

    Of course it does not because that is not what I said, i said he was not reacting to a bullet, but instead was reacting to the gunman. If someone aims a gun at you, and you move because you predict he is going to fire, and he does which thanks to you moving saves your life, does not mean you reacted to the speed of the bullet but more the intention of the shooter.

    This adds up because as we see earlier, Cloud gets shot in the face by a bullet so he cannot react to bullets, otherwise, if it was so easy for him he could move his head out of the way.

  29. Friendlysociopath May 18, 2015 at 2:25 pm -      #129

    Your example is horrible because thats not what is happening here, Cloud is not falling from a skyscraper.

    He actually was, you’d know this if you paid the slightest attention to the cutscenes that we post.

    In those games you listed , give me the materia he begins with

    I think you mean the materia he ends with you silly boy; which would be all of them. You could make the argument he doesn’t get the Master Materia as those require you to go out of your way. But otherwise most of it he finds lying around during his travels.

    Half a dozen people were shooting at him without him even moving on the train, guess what? none hit him there either…..

    Yep, now I can officially call you a troll and ignore you since you’re clearly either not looking at the evidence or willfully ignoring it. Congrats. I don’t have to deal with you anymore.

    or is it magic lightning without a known speed

    Lightning bolt = lightning bolt pal, matches up with other feats like slashing several times in the blink of an eye and Vincent moving fast enough to teleport.

    Also, if Cloud was fast he wouldnnt have gotten shot in the face would he, hardly a bullet timer if your getting shot in the face, saved by a pair of goggles…

    And this just compounds the stupidity; you’re either not watching the scenes or purposefully ignoring what we tell you.
    Cloud’s borderline dead for most of the movie, he has a Geostigma attack and can’t do much more than hold onto his bike during that scene. You’d know this if you were paying the slightest bit of attention to either our posts or the scenes.

    This adds up

    It really doesn’t, your complete willingness to ignore evidence given straight to you is starting to put you up there with the likes of the Halo fanboys.

  30. wingedlion May 18, 2015 at 2:29 pm -      #130

    @Kitten
    “i said he was not reacting to a bullet”

    He was though. The bullet was already in the air before he dodged. That’s not aim dodging.

  31. Kitten Lord May 18, 2015 at 2:36 pm -      #131

    @Friendly

    “I think you mean the materia he ends”

    No begins, that way I can affirm no player antics were involved. If hes got those materia from the beginning of the game we know he is likely to equip them as a standard.

    “and ignore you”

    Oh please do, your pointless blather is boring me.

    “Lightning bolt = lightning bolt pal,”

    Nah, lightning as we know it in nature, you know in our universe from the sky is the speed of real lightning. How fast a magical spell can send what it “names” a lightning bolt on the other hand? unknown.

    Tons of spells in gaming are called lightning. I remember having a similar argument in the Ganon+Link vs Raziel and Kain thread.

    “he has a Geostigma attack and can’t do much more than hold onto his bike during that scene.”

    He fights against Loz just after the attack, ime not buying your assertion that that attack suddenly took away all his speed or power at all. he did not even react apart from with shock as he slowly watched the guy come towards him.

  32. Friendlysociopath May 18, 2015 at 3:11 pm -      #132

    No begins

    No, ends; we go by what he gets traveling through the canon storyline through buying it in shops and find in on the ground and getting them from bosses than you have to defeat. You not liking it means nothing to us.

    How fast a magical spell can send what it “names” a lightning bolt on the other hand?

    Funnily enough, there is no spell in Final Fantasy called lightning bolt. So good job on that argument, Word of God says that was a bolt of lightning.
    Word of God > anything you have to say about it.

    Oh please do, your pointless blather is boring me.

    As does your pointless downplaying and ignoring of proof put in front of you. In the Last Order one we even see the bullets slow-mo going where Zack was before he moves- so you’re either trolling or just not watching.
    One of which makes you unworthy of being a debater.
    One of which just makes you bad at it.

    He fights against Loz just after the attack

    And see, this is even more proof that you’re not watching the videos; or if you are you’re deliberately not paying attention.
    After that Geostigma attack he’s instantly disarmed; then for the rest of the fight he’s just holding the arm the Geostigma is on.
    Learn to watch videos please, it would make you look like less of a dumbass.

  33. Kitten Lord May 18, 2015 at 3:28 pm -      #133

    @Friendly

    “through buying it in shops and find in on the ground and getting them from bosses”

    I want to see Cloud himself actually going into a shop and buying the specific materia, or will my request be met by players in menus?

    “You not liking it means nothing to us.”

    Clearly it does since you’ve been arguing it with me for dozens of posts.

    “In the Last Order one we even see the bullets”

    We see the bullets flying all over the place. This has already been settled, the Shinra troops cannot shoot him while stationary, hence why its no surprise they cannot hit him while moving.

    Its not necessarily easy hitting any moving target.

    “After that Geostigma attack he’s instantly disarmed”

    no he reacts to Loz, blocks and fails. This tells us nothing of his reaction times, or his brain processing. He is physically weak maybe, but I can see nothing of him even trying or failing to dodge, he does not react any more than a surprised fool.

    He gets stabbed by sephiroth and kicked about by several of the characters. So him dodging out of the trajectory of a gunners aim is not impressive to me. Especially when the gunner is useless at shooting.

    “you’re either trolling or just not watching.”

    Amusing coming from you, and of course I am watching, hence how I pointed out the hilarious bit of shooting on the train, cloud getting stabbed and kicked, cloud not using any magic etc etc

    “Word of God says that was a bolt of lightning.”

    Indeed, merely confirming that in final fantasy a bolt of lightning at least in this instance is equivalent to a bunch of slow moving spheres of energy….

    Oh so deadly…

    What happened to your tantrum of ignoring me? Making promises…..

  34. seradon May 18, 2015 at 3:33 pm -      #134

    @KittenLord
    _
    “How do you know its a steel plate”
    Because the Shinra Building is a skyscraper and the plates should therefore at the very least be steel in order to support it’s structure? Regardless, the construction would need to offer a very high tensile strength in order to sustain itself.
    _
    “or its thickness?”
    The one inch statement was actually low-balling it. A building of that size would need very thick frames in order to support it’s weight. A quick look at the disjointed plates confirms they’re several inches thick even when eye-balling it, so the force with which Cloud hit must have been immense.

  35. Zazax May 18, 2015 at 3:38 pm -      #135

    “Yeah your bastardizing the rules, the rules do not take away the characters MO.”
    It doesn’t suddenly give them one either.
    You’re the one claiming Cloud has a particular MO. You’re the one who has to prove it. So get on that.

    “If you cannot prove him starting with magic then he does not suddenly go bloodlusted and use anything and everything you want him to.”
    He’s not bloodlusted. He’s fighting at optimum capacity within the bounds of his available equipment and CIS. Those two just happen to be very similar in this particular case.

    “Your example is horrible because thats not what is happening here, Cloud is not falling from a skyscraper.”
    A) Yes he is, and B) distance fallen does not matter; the energy behind it does. That impact would have outright killed any normal person (as evidenced by both the crater it leaves and the speed at which Cloud comes flying into the shot). Cloud withstands all the impact force with just his arms, without them breaking, which is a huge durability feat. If he can resist that level of force Kenobi will be hard pressed to do *anything* to him with the force, let alone crush him with it. He certainly won’t be able to beat him by smashing him around with it.

    “You contradict yourself here, if the cast times “do” vary then you cannot just fallaciously affiliate all the materias cast times. I want to see the ones your claiming he will use.”
    Then you can go find them yourself. The evidence I’ve shown you would be more than sufficient for a reasonable person. I’ve shown you both a bog-standard one and two very top-tier ones (as in, there’s only a single spell in their respective categories better than them) being used at the same speed, then named Ultima as the sole exception. This is both demonstrably consistent and 100% acceptable.

    “Admin said that characters get their equipment from their games”
    No, he says they have access to all weapons and skills from all their adventures, pending stipulations (so no Time or Transform materia here for Cloud). That’s pretty explicit. He then later confirms in a separate thread that yes, Cloud does get all his materia.
    There is no wiggle room here.

    “Also as for your second quote, Admin said Cloud gets his materia, again, what is clouds materia, what do we know he owns?”
    He ‘owns’ all of it. He’s not only shown with the giant chest full of the stuff in AC, but he’s also the one who’s spending the money when they buy them, the one who’s being handed the ones you get for sidequests (like the Master Materia), and/or the one who finds it lying around. He’s also unanimously elected party leader by the rest of the group. This is not an issue despite your insistence otherwise.

    “Can I see a quote or source that states Cloud as a standard has this materia on him at all times?”
    No, you can’t. But you can go back and re-read the more than reasonable amount of evidence we’ve given you that when Cloud is in an actual fight (and not, say, sitting at home or working his day job) he has his materia, and is visibly (and audibly) distressed when he’s prevented from getting them.
    Hell, there’s even an entire sidequest (which is canonically completed, since Yuffie is part of the group) where Yuffie steals all the party’s materia and you go track her down to reclaim them. If Cloud fought with only his sword this would not be an issue, but he instead canonically goes out of his way doing an annoying and irritatingly long sidequest to get them all back.

    “I was talking to Seradon about how Cloud rarely tanks damage himself and uses his sword to block. Where did I mention that to you?”
    Hmm. I just checked back, and it seems I initially copy/pasted the wrong bit of text in the bit that started this particular response chain. I apologize. I was trying to refer to your constant assertions that Cloud favors his sword over his magic, rather than his durability. Although that’s also a thing that you’ve been ignoring.

    “He had plenty of time to do something. ”
    First off, he doesn’t see her coming at all. He’s looking ahead (you know, driving) and she comes in on him from above and behind. They both fly out of the dust from her hit, he parries her strike, then there’s an explosion and they go offscreen.
    That is not nearly long enough to act as a sample size of sorts for either side. It’s seriously only like 5 seconds long.

    “Infact I am using them against you.”
    If you say so.

    “Your making claims and affirmations for things you do not know, you cannot prove the force or calc the force of any of those things.”
    Not everything needs to be precisely calc’d. We don’t need calcs to know that, for example, Cloud has superior physical abilities than Obi-Wan. We can *see it*. It is obvious.
    And, hey, at least we’re actually providing evidence for our claims.

    “Pressure, as in, Sephiroth cut into him, you claimed it was a feat for durability, I counter by pointing out to you he did not tank it, he got stabbed.”
    Yeah, because Sephiroth is on his level. The fact that he’s *only* stabbed is the impressive part. Well, that and the fact that he stands right back up afterwards none the worse for wear.
    It’s impressive because Sephiroth is a dude who can casually slice through a steel cannon with sides thicker than he is tall, with one hand. That is ridiculous strength feat. The fact that he stabs Cloud and Cloud is relatively okay is a huge deal. If Cloud had regular human durability, being stabbed by someone that strong would pulverize his organs, probably shatter a few ribs, and likely kill him instantly. Instead, Cloud groans a bit, then stands up and is totally fine.

  36. Friendlysociopath May 18, 2015 at 3:48 pm -      #136

    I want to see Cloud himself actually going into a shop and buying the specific materia, or will my request be met by players in menus?

    Your request in met in Advent Children we clearly see Kadaj and his gang using materia Cloud didn’t have in FF7; so we know for a fact he’s still going out and collecting them.
    And we can see his chest full of materia, at a rough count of 20 on just the top layer, he’s got to have at least 50 in there.
    And we see several times that Kadaj’s gang each have more than 10 in each arm, so yes, he has access to all of them.

    Clearly it does since you’ve been arguing it with me for dozens of posts.

    That would be because I very much enjoy telling you how wrong you are.

    Especially when the gunner is useless at shooting.

    Except they aren’t, they pinpoint shot Cloud’s sword out of his hand and then shoot it several times while it was in midair to knock it away. So we know they’re good shots.

    Amusing coming from you, and of course I am watching, hence how I pointed out the hilarious bit of shooting on the train, cloud getting stabbed and kicked, cloud not using any magic etc etc

    He had to physically move his sword to block several bullets, so that argument is outright wrong to say they couldn’t hit him.
    Not sure how Cloud getting stabbed by someone that is WoG better than him in every way is a bad feat for him.
    And you’re just desperate for Cloud not to have that magic- it’s a little sad. He uses magic plenty in every game he’s in. One movie that actually took his magic away does not trump years of using it when he’s in battle.

    Indeed, merely confirming that in final fantasy a bolt of lightning at least in this instance is equivalent to a bunch of slow moving spheres of energy….

    Oh that’s right, anything you disagree with instantly becomes invalid, I must get back to that Kain match to point out how Raziel doesn’t actually hit Kain with his full force…
    Which reminds me, since you watched it and paid attention, you obviously noticed they slowed them down right? Then sped them back up again? Because you know, lightning bolts are very fast?

    What happened to your tantrum of ignoring me?

    I just enjoy knowing I could ignore you and still win, there’s something very wonderful about knowing someone just digs themselves deeper into a grave with every comment.

  37. Numinous One May 18, 2015 at 3:49 pm -      #137

    “through buying it in shops and find in on the ground and getting them from bosses”

    Sort of agree with Kitten on this point. Standard equipment doesn’t include optional items.
    It’s why Dante doesn’t get the bangle of time in his matches.

    Which Materia that Cloud gained were unavoidable? The game forced you into having them, I don’t mean a random drop from an enemy either.

  38. Kitten Lord May 18, 2015 at 3:51 pm -      #138

    @Sera

    “Because the Shinra Building is a skyscraper and the plates should therefore at the very least be steel in order to support it’s structure? Regardless, the construction would need to offer a very high tensile strength in order to sustain itself.”

    This is conjecture, the whole buildings support is one thing but cloud did not fall on the whole building, he fell on what looked like a roof of some kind. Regardless, unless Cloud somehow gains weight he cannot hit with any more force than calced.

    @Zazax

    “It doesn’t suddenly give them one either.”

    No, it does not. You have to find his MO and show me, not make one up.

    “A) Yes he is, and B) distance fallen does not matter”

    A tiny one, and yes it does, it matters a lot. Velocity is distance per second in this case, and velocity is integral to working out force upon impact alongside mass.

    “Then you can go find them yourself”

    Not how burden of proof works bub.

    ” Cloud does get all his materia”

    I have plenty of wiggle room until you prove “all his materia” actually includes all the ones your mentioning.

    ” This is not an issue despite your insistence otherwise.”


    Its a huge issue, its a gameplay mechanic. Your essentially telling me just because the player went on a side quest and got a reward the canon character has something as a standard, as if its a belonging. I think I am right in guessing the player can also choose to give the materia to someone other than Cloud amrite?

    “No, you can’t.”

    Oh…..well that is a waste of time.

    “First off, he doesn’t see her coming at all.”

    He looks up and sees her dive bombing, you know, this thing that takes her seconds to travel. And he does what? nothing, he gets hit……only to leap up and defend with magi…..oh no, his sword…

    ” for example, Cloud has superior physical abilities than Obi-Wan. We can *see it*. It is obvious.
    And, hey, at least we’re actually providing evidence for our claims.”

    There is plenty of Obi wan evidence in this thread, what are you talking about? And your asserting based on your opinions that the feats are impressive….that is not a strong argument without proving it is.

    “tands right back up afterwards none the worse for wear.”


    I would not call bleeding and kneeling on the floor none the worse for wear. Hes injured just like anyone would be after being stabbed in the shoulder. Lucky he was not stabbed in a vital area…

    “That is ridiculous strength feat”

    Actually its a “decent” cutting feat. The actual material cut is at best millimeters thick because thats the edge of sephiroth super slim sword.

    “being stabbed by someone that strong would pulverize his organs, probably shatter a few ribs, and likely kill him instantly”

    Or it would just do the same thing it did to Cloud. Cloud got poked through the arm, why would a human somehow die from the same blow? If their being cut thats the end of it.

  39. Zazax May 18, 2015 at 3:59 pm -      #139

    “Sort of agree with Kitten on this point.”
    Well, he’s wrong. His viewpoint goes against both explicit statements from Admin and the amendment to the standard equipment rule concerning video game characters in the site rules itself.

    “Which Materia that Cloud gained were unavoidable?”
    Those would be the two he starts with, and Cure, which is gained 15ish minutes into a 40+ hour game. It is incredibly stupid to limit him to just those (although he could win with them anyways).
    Regardless, we already know the rules on this, from the actual rules and from Admin himself. Kitten’s issues with this rule do not change our approach to the match.

  40. Kitten Lord May 18, 2015 at 4:12 pm -      #140

    @Zaz

    “His viewpoint goes against both explicit statements from Admin”

    www.reactiongifs.com/lol/Obama-lol.gif

    Nice try but Admin only says Cloud gets his materia, not that he gets every materia in the game and has them equiped. He did not debate your argument for you either and allow you to claim Cloud will start with spells…..without any proven MO….

    Trust me, if I thought video game characters got every piece of equipment they have ever touched or had any interaction with I would be all over this because Kain has a ton of stuff he has had access to which would be brilliant in a vs, yet he does not , because his items he no longer necessarily has are not standard.

    ” It is incredibly stupid to limit him to just those”

    More like logical. rather than assuming he has somehow had prep to look through every piece in the game and equip them into his limited slots before the battle started….

    Maybe Obi should get his Jedi star fighter as well since apparently the characters get to go and get their equipment that may belong to them…..

    “Kitten’s issues with this rule ”

    Correction, your interpretation of it.

  41. Friendlysociopath May 18, 2015 at 4:16 pm -      #141

    I don’t mean a random drop from an enemy either.

    Enemies don’t random drop materia; some bosses will drop materia, no RNG needed.
    But just to please Kitten, I will make a list of every materia that you don’t buy; just come across in your travels and you get from bosses.

    Hell, Kitten admitted in the first page that even if Cloud had the basic Fire and Thunder materia Kenobi couldn’t do anything about it, guess what materia Cloud starts the game with?

    And he does what?

    That would be because materia uses stamina, using magic taxes your body more than just swinging a sword.
    ^this is backed up in gameplay, game dialogue, and the audiobooks.

    You have to find his MO

    Let’s see, your evidence that he doesn’t use magic:
    One movie where he doesn’t have access to it and so can’t use it.
    One cutscene that he’s in for all of maybe 10 seconds in a game that is not about him. Furthermore, that girl runs away immediately following that scene; confirmed by herself and a phone call Vincent gets.

    Our evidence that he does use it:
    He uses it in every game he’s in.
    He actually instructs the other party members in how to use them.
    He apparently is still looking for them.
    He will go extremely far out of his way to get them back since Yuffie canonically exists; and she steals every materia he has.

    The actual material cut is at best millimeters thick because thats the edge of sephiroth super slim sword.

    The sword cuts further than its length; Sephiroth’s just that strong. This isn’t a foreign concept, we have plenty of anime characters that do that.

    would a human somehow die from the same blow

    Because Sephiroth is strong enough to do shit like this?
    img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110820033220/finalfantasy/images/7/75/FFVII-MidgarZolom_Death.jpg

    And can take blows that dent steel in all directions around him. @1:53 and again @3:30 The 3:30 one is actually without either of them standing on it, so the shockwave first went through the air in all directions and then cratered steel

    Starting from 3:01 you can see Sephiroth make multiple cuts in a second and can cut further than his sword can reach.

    One benefit from this, I figured out why Cloud didn’t take materia with him in Advent Children; stuff takes stamina to use, and he’s got very little of that in most of Advent Children, what with having cancer… again!

  42. Kitten Lord May 18, 2015 at 4:25 pm -      #142

    “Let’s see, your evidence that he uses his sword:”

    Corrected you.

    “Every scene we see him fight in ”

    And again.

    “Our claims that he does use it:”

    Yep you guessed it.

    “He uses it in every game he’s in.”

    not seen it yet though.

    “He actually instructs the other party members in how to use them.”

    Big whoop, that really tells me hes going to open up a can of magic all over Kenobi first second of the fight…oh wait…

    “He apparently is still looking for them”

    Well shit, I am still looking for a lucky lotto ticket…guess that comes standard with me into a BankGambling match! Someone suggest a match with me in it! quick!

    img.pandawhale.com/post-25049-laughing-out-loud-lol-gif-Now-xlnU.gif

    “Because Sephiroth is strong enough to do shit like this?”

    Him being strong is not the same as him poking with a sword. Also, show me Sephiroth physically wrestling the snake onto the spike?

    “Starting from 3:01 you can see Sephiroth make multiple cuts in a second and can cut further than his sword can reach.”

    So what? your argument is he can cut further than his sword can reach, because he is strong? please explain the logic here….it couldnt be because their magical weapons are emitting energy could it? oh no…its because Sephiroth is flexing his muscles…

    Also all that fight is in a virtual reality.

    I assume you realize why i do not take you seriously….

    Also missed what Duku said;

    “he thing you have to realise is that cloud does not carry hardly any materia around because he knows it’s got a negative effect on the planet and damages it. Thus he is hesitant to use it.”

  43. seradon May 18, 2015 at 4:30 pm -      #143

    “he fell on what looked like a roof of some kind”
    That’s irrelevant. Both floor and ceiling layers have to be accordingly thick to handle the effects of gravity on them. The fact the plates still have to be at the very least steel in order to be effective construction is still very much a fact.
    _
    “unless Cloud somehow gains weight he cannot hit with any more force than calced”
    Considering the fact your calculations failed to take the weight of his sword (which would transfer it’s own fair share of energy on impact) or that you used a measly 33 m/s for Cloud’s speed at impact (which implies he was only moving at 3.57 m/s when Sephiroth flung him), I’m more inclined to assume the calculations are erroneous. Particularly, due to the fact there is more than one scene of Cloud’s body handling forces capable of collapsing steel (which again, would require several tons worth of force in order to achieve), or that he smacked a dragon around which for all intents and purposes should weigh several tons.

  44. Kitten Lord May 18, 2015 at 4:36 pm -      #144

    @Sera

    “That’s irrelevant”

    Not really, your roof does not have to take the weight of the building does it? no, only the frame does. My roof is not made of steel, I can have my roof made of whatever I want as long as its waterproof and my house is hardly going to suddenly collapse…

    “or that you used a measly 33 m/s for Cloud’s speed at impact”

    Well he was slow, I did not use it willy nilly, I counted the seconds in 0.25 speed in the video. He did not cover it any faster than that.

    “Considering the fact your calculations failed to take the weight of his sword ”

    We do not have the canon weiught, but if I use 1000 pounds, lets do the calc again;

    26400 newtons, much higher than the initial numbers.

    Your assuming it is steel, but it bends so easily upon bodily impact. It could be aluminium.

  45. Friendlysociopath May 18, 2015 at 4:51 pm -      #145

    Magic = spells
    Equip = put it onto armor and weapon for effect
    Summon = it’s a summon

    The materia you just find during your travels:
    You start with the ability to cast Fire, Ice, and Lightning.
    Added Effect- Equip
    All- Equip
    Bahamut- Summon
    Chocobo- Summon
    Chocobo Lure (meh, it’s going in the list)
    Comet- Magic
    Contain- Magic
    Counter- Equip
    Counter-Attack- Equip
    Cover- Equip
    Deathblow- Equip
    Destruct- Magic
    Elemental- Equip
    Enemy Skill- Magic
    Final Attack- Equip
    FullCure- Magic
    HP Absorb- Equip
    Ifrit- Summon
    Kjata- Summon
    Leviathan- Summon (questionable, Yuffie is canon though so it should be there)
    Long Range Attack- Equip
    Luck Plus- Equip
    Magic Plus- Equip
    Manipulate- Magic
    Mega All- Equip
    Morph- Magic
    MP Absorb- Equip
    Neo Bahamut- Summon
    Odin- Summon (Vincent’s canon too)
    Phoenix- Summon
    Ramuh- Summon
    Restore- Magic
    Shield- Magic
    Shiva- Summon
    Steal as well- equip
    Throw- … magic?
    Titan- Summon
    Transform- Magic
    Ultima- Magic
    W Item- Equip
    W Magic- Equip

    Those were all from locations and bosses that aren’t sidequests. They’re from:
    Places you have to go
    People you have to save
    People you have to defeat

    That wasn’t counting materia like Time that are in every single store past a certain point.
    Or materia you get from the Battle Party.
    Or Chocobo racing (though that’s canon)
    Or sidequests that you don’t have to take.

    Corrected you.

    “Every scene we see him fight in ”


    Yeah, a movie that takes place over two days and a brief 10 second fightscene do not trump years of him using the stuff daily. Sorry to burst your bubble.

    .it couldnt be because their magical weapons are emitting energy could it?

    The weapons aren’t magic; that would be the users. Also, we see Sehiroth’s “energy beams” when he uses them. What he was doing to the cannon wasn’t “energy beams” but his own strength, same as in Advent Children when he does the same thing- again, without energy beams.

    he thing you have to realise is that cloud does not carry hardly any materia around because he knows it’s got a negative effect on the planet and damages it.

    That’s not true? Oi, Dooku, where did you hear that? Materia doesn’t hurt the planet? I’ve not heard that in the games, movies, or audiobooks.
    Closest I’ve heard about that was the old guy specifically talking about Shinra materia, which was forcefully extracted from the earth rather than occurring naturally like most materia.

    Cosmo Canyon is like THE hippy “we protect and love the planet” place, they’ve been using materia for 10 years.
    Yuffie specifically states it uses your stamina to use materia too.

  46. Zazax May 18, 2015 at 4:57 pm -      #146

    “No, it does not. You have to find his MO and show me, not make one up.”
    I don’t have to show you an MO at all, because he doesn’t have one. His in-game actions are entirely dictated by the player, therefore he has no canon preference one way or the other, Therefore he can do whatever with no CIS pulling him one way or the other. That’s how this works. It is not hard to understand.
    If you keep insisting on determining exactly how Cloud fights, you’re going to be very disappointed, since you can’t. This thing you’re looking for does not exist.

    “A tiny one, and yes it does, it matters a lot. Velocity is distance per second in this case, and velocity is integral to working out force upon impact alongside mass.”
    He falls for 13 seconds. That is not a tiny fall. That’s like 97-98% terminal velocity.
    And we can see the force he strikes with. Even if he’s falling at normal terminal velocity for a normal human without a giant sword (which he’s not, but we’ll lowball it for your sake), absorbing all that impact in his arms is a big durability feat.

    “Not how burden of proof works bub.”
    I have already fulfilled my obligation to burden of proof. I have given you three separate examples of different materia of different levels of power being used with the same cast time. If you want to dispute that, burden of proof is now on you.

    “I have plenty of wiggle room until you prove “all his materia” actually includes all the ones your mentioning.”
    No, you don’t. The materia is all his. Both by definition and by demonstration.

    “Its a huge issue, its a gameplay mechanic.”
    ‘Gameplay mechanic’ doesn’t mean what you seem to think it means. That’s stuff like HP or hit chance or turn based combat.It has nothing to do with possession of items.

    “Your essentially telling me just because the player went on a side quest and got a reward the canon character has something as a standard, as if its a belonging.”
    Yeah. And there’s an amendment to the standard equipment rule specifically dealing with situations like this. I’ve quoted it at you previously in this debate. I’ve even given you examples of other characters having this exact rule applied to them without a certain someone lighting their hair on fire over it, because it’s a site rule.

    “Oh…..well that is a waste of time.”
    I’m glad we both finally agree that your argument is a waste of time. =P

    “He looks up and sees her dive bombing, you know, this thing that takes her seconds to travel. And he does what? nothing, he gets hit……only to leap up and defend with magi…..oh no, his sword…”
    For such a short, throwaway scene (in a game where Cloud is a very minor character) you’re reading into this scene quite a bit.

    “There is plenty of Obi wan evidence in this thread, what are you talking about?”
    I’m referring specifically to your entire presence in this thread being attempts to downplay Cloud, rather than provide any evidence for Kenobi. And even your downplaying has no evidence behind it.

    “And your asserting based on your opinions that the feats are impressive….that is not a strong argument without proving it is.”
    That’s because they are. We might not have exact numbers for, say, the bit where Cloud falls and slams into Sephiroth (largely because of a lack of a canon weight for both Cloud and his sword), but we don’t need them. The stuff we’re seeing is enough for us to get an idea of his physical capabilities even without numbers. Very few fights on BankGambling actually involve both sides trading calcs.

    ” would not call bleeding and kneeling on the floor none the worse for wear.”
    … And then he stands up and beats Sephiroth totally unhindered by the wound. Even afterwards it’s completely forgotten.

    “Actually its a “decent” cutting feat. The actual material cut is at best millimeters thick because thats the edge of sephiroth super slim sword.”
    You can’t be serious…
    You know what, if you can show me a video of a real person cutting through a steel girder with one hand (and leaving the edges of his cuts glowing red hot from the friction generated by the force of it), then I’ll acknowledge that it’s a ‘decent’ cutting feat. Until you do, cutting through steel several times thicker than you are tall remains dazzlingly superhuman.

    “Or it would just do the same thing it did to Cloud. Cloud got poked through the arm, why would a human somehow die from the same blow?”
    You do realize this is like asking “why would a regular human die just from being punched by the Hulk’, right? Sephiroth is many, many times stronger than a normal person.
    I mean, he’s not the Hulk by any stretch, but the question is a similar level of ridiculous.

    Ah. Mocking gifs. And here I thought we were trying to remain civilized.

    “Nice try but Admin only says Cloud gets his materia”
    No, he outright says they get all weapons and abilities from all their adventures. What part of ‘all’ don’t you understand?

    “More like logical. rather than assuming he has somehow had prep to look through every piece in the game and equip them into his limited slots before the battle started….”
    That’s not what happens in an FP match. To quote the rules again:
    “Combatants will be ported into battle with their standard power-set and equipment associated with their used incarnations for the combatant to take part of the battle at maximum efficiency.”
    So he’s not rummaging through his gear before the match starts. He’s teleported in with it ready to go.
    And before you start going on about ‘standard equipment’ again, that paragraph is immediately followed by the amendment dealing with video game characters, saying that their stuff is only ruled out by stipulations and PIS. Which is why nobody is suggesting we hit Obi-Wan with Stop or Frog.
    Hell, we wouldn’t even need that stipulation if your interpretation of the rules was correct. But it’s not, so we do.

  47. Friendlysociopath May 18, 2015 at 5:07 pm -      #147

    Just for the record, post #145 has a complete list of materia Cloud can’t avoid getting; that should probably be noted somewhere so we can easily find it again should the need arise.

    Also, show me Sephiroth physically wrestling the snake onto the spike?

    … eh? Cloud and company are pursuing Sephiroth, they actually canonically can’t beat that snake, which is why they needed Chocobos to outrun it. Then they walk up to that.
    Sephiroth is the only person capable of doing that:
    The party didn’t do it.
    No monsters are around to do it.
    And the Turks sure as hell aren’t strong enough to do it.
    That leaves the Sephiroth they’re following (which actually isn’t Sephiroth, just a weaker clone) as the one who did it.

    This was shortly after Cloud gave an entire speech about “Everything you’ve ever heard about him isn’t giving him enough credit- he’s stronger and faster than any story you’ve every heard. He’s a SOLDIER 1st Class, like me.”
    (Cloud’s a cocky little punk in the start of the game)

  48. seradon May 18, 2015 at 5:18 pm -      #148

    ” My roof is not made of steel, I can have my roof made of whatever I want as long as its waterproof and my house is hardly going to suddenly collapse…”
    Is your roof part of a several hundred foot tall building? I highly doubt so. Skyscraper construction can’t afford the luxuries of regular roofing since if any part of the structure fails it can bring the whole damn thing down. Particularly, the effect of wind pressure on the structure can be greater than any other force on it and could actually topple the things by itself if countermeasures where not added.
    _
    “Your assuming it is steel, but it bends so easily upon bodily impact. It could be aluminium”
    You don’t use aluminum for skyscrapers. The standard building materials seem to be steel and/or concrete, both of which are shown to be prevalent in the building’s structure. As such, there is no reason to assume Shinra built theirs with weaker materials since it wouldn’t be able to support the stress.

« Previous 1 2

Leave A Response

You must be logged in to post a comment.


Web Design MymensinghPremium WordPress ThemesWeb Development

Michio Kaku: The Universe In a Nutshell

Fantastic video that easily explains physics of our universe: Michio Kaku - Universe in a Nutshell

Raiders of the Lost Ark – Conception Transcribed

Raiders of the Lost Ark - This is an amazing read on the thought process between George Lucas, Steven Spielberg and Lawrence Kasdan as they talk through the concepts of this amazing film. It's practically peering into the thought process of some of the most influential film makers of our day. And amazingly, shows how creative Lucas was.

Help Out Nepal

Finally a good reason to support Destiny.

Modern Gaming

Sad but true.

Curiosity Rover Spotted by Mars Orbiter on Mount Sharp

Humanity is the invading alien now...

Nope

No way I go here alone

17 Rare Star Wars Pictures

To see them, click here

Comic Con 2013 Cosplay Gallery

Just a ton of pictures of cosplayers from the 2013 Comic Con event

Ancient Aliens Map

If you ever watched the show "Ancient Aliens" and wanted a quick reference to where all the locations they mention are at, this is the site for you!

Fictional Universes Database

Soon to be shut down by Google, but here is a great starting point for Fictional Universes

99 Star Wars Pics

Some are cool, some are a bit absurd, but they are all based on Star Wars

Alternate Movie Posters

Something a bit distinct - Check them out

Epic Swiss Army Knife

Not Really...

Future Me

Write yourself an email letter to the future - Future Me

Neil Degrasse Tyson

Star Talk Radio - As always, keep looking up!