Obi-Wan Kenobi Vs Cloud Strife

Obi-Wan Kenobi Vs Cloud Strife

Suggested by Nsl98

Obi-Wan Kenobi (Star Wars) will go up against Cloud Strife (Final Fantasy)

Kenobi is allowed EU, no time manipulation or polymorph for Cloud.

They fight on the MCU Helicarrier.

Who will win?

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177 Comments on "Obi-Wan Kenobi Vs Cloud Strife"

  1. Rookie May 16, 2015 at 6:15 am -      #1

    Feats for Obi-Wan?

  2. Rookie May 16, 2015 at 7:27 am -      #2

    I’l side with Cloud for now, unless Obi-Wan have better feats than:

  3. Nsl98 May 16, 2015 at 8:57 am -      #3

    Obi-Wan speed:
    “Two, three, and four. Oh, thought Obi-Wan with detached approval. That worked out rather well. Only ten thousand to go. Give or take. An instant later the Force had him hurtling through a storm of blasterfire as every combat droid in the control center opened up on him at once. Letting go of intention, letting go of desire, letting go of life, Obi-Wan fixed his entire attention on a thread of the Force that pulled him toward Grievous: not where Grievous was, but where Grievous would be when Obi-Wan got there…

    Leaping girder to girder, slashing cables on which to swing through swarms of ricocheting particle beams, blade flickering so fast it became a deflector shield that splattered blaster bolts in all directions, his presence alone became a weapon: as he spun and whirled through the control center’s superstructure, the blasts of particle cannons from power droids destroyed equipment and shattered girders and unleashed a torrent of red-hot debris that crashed to the deck, crushing droids on all sides. By the time he flipped down through the air to land cat-footed on the deck once more, nearly half the droids between him and Grievous had been destroyed by their own not-so-friendly fire. He cut his way into the mob of remaining troops as smoothly as if it were no more than a canebrake near some sunlit beach; his steady pace left behind a trail of smoking slices of droid.”

  4. Zazax May 16, 2015 at 9:03 am -      #4

    So… would a lightsaber count as Fire damage? Because it’s fairly trivial to set up Cloud so that fire heals him instead of hurts him.

    On a related note, Ultima Weapon is made of pure force (although not Force, obviously), so Obi-Wan won’t be able to cut through it.

    Cloud may not have access to Toad, Mini, Slow, Haste, or Stop, but he still has Death. And Remove. And Manipulate. And Shield. And all his Summons. And the stuff that lets him cast multiple spells at once over and over again at no additional cost.

    I’ll side with Cloud for now. Kenobi does have precog, which may be an issue, but until we get some better feats for him I believe Cloud holds the advantage.

  5. Kitten Lord May 16, 2015 at 9:13 am -      #5

    Ive never had Cloud down as a caster, his MO has consistently been “run at target with big sword and slash it to bits”, not “cast a ton of spells”, when has this ever been his mo?

    As for;

    “So… would a lightsaber count as Fire damage? Because it’s fairly trivial to set up Cloud so that fire heals him instead of hurts him.”

    What feats can be shown for his resistance against heat? Its not fire, its plasma so what are his canon showings of heat resistance?

    “On a related note, Ultima Weapon is made of pure force (although not Force, obviously), so Obi-Wan won’t be able to cut through it.”

    What does this mean? any sources on what “made of pure force” means?

  6. Zazax May 16, 2015 at 9:43 am -      #6

    “Ive never had Cloud down as a caster”
    Ugh, not this again.

    “his MO has consistently been “run at target with big sword and slash it to bits”, not “cast a ton of spells””
    And how exactly are you determining that this is his MO? Advent Children is not valid, since his materia is all stolen so he *physically couldn’t* use magic at all. You’ll note that the first thing he does when he realizes there’s a threat is to go home to pick them all up, but is too late. Also note that Yuffie brings him a bunch during the final fight (even if she’s stopped before reaching him), both of which imply he uses materia in fights.

    “when has this ever been his mo?”
    Well, in the original game Cloud himself is the tutorial on how to use materia (it’s framed as him explaining it to Barret), so from the start he knows how to use it, and he starts the game with a couple (namely, Ice and Lightning) equipped. Stat-wise he’s also far and away the best caster in the game (after Aerith, who dies anyway), to the point where his minimum magic stat at max level is higher than everyone else’s maximum (barring item or materia-based modification, of course). Kind of implies something, don’t you think?
    As for it ‘being his MO’, that’s entirely up to the player to decide, because it’s a game. But his stats lean that way, so…

    “What feats can be shown for his resistance against heat?”
    Um, causing it to heal instead of hurt him? Like I just said? It’s quite simple.

    “Its not fire, its plasma”
    Fire *is* plasma.

    “What does this mean? any sources on what “made of pure force” means?”
    As in, it’s not made out of matter. It’s solid ‘force’. It’s the weapon’s whole schtick; its effectiveness is tied to Cloud’s health percentage, and as he takes damage the blade visually fades away and does less damage.
    Think of it like Hardlight, if it helps. It’s a decent analogue, if not totally accurate.

  7. Kitten Lord May 16, 2015 at 9:58 am -      #7

    @Zaz

    “Advent Children is not valid, since his materia is all stolen so he *physically couldn’t* use magic at all. You’ll note that the first thing he does when he realizes there’s a threat is to go home to pick them all up, but is too late. Also note that Yuffie brings him a bunch during the final fight (even if she’s stopped before reaching him), both of which imply he uses materia in fights.”

    Its valid as its a showing, it may be an unfair showing on his MO but AC is not the only time in the whole FF fiction hes faced an opponent, there must be more cutscenes and what not?

    At best from that you can argue that he uses a sword most of the time hes shown but “may” use magic if he has access to it but in no way can you say what spells or to what degree especially when we only ever see him with his sword.

    “Kind of implies something, don’t you think?”

    It implies game mechanics. I am not going to assume either way from stats.

    “As for it ‘being his MO’, that’s entirely up to the player to decide,”

    Which is useless here. What of this;

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZiz86LdeiE

    “Fire *is* plasma.”

    You know what I mean, its a superheated sci-fi plasma. Cloud having an in-game resistance equivalent to a fireball/firaga cannot exactly be compared.

    “Think of it like Hardlight, if it helps. It’s a decent analogue, if not totally accurate.”


    Fair enough.

  8. wingedlion May 16, 2015 at 10:37 am -      #8

    @Kitten
    “Its valid as its a showing”

    No it’s not. How is using a showing where he specifically cannot use magic valid for detirmining whether he uses magic or not?

    “AC is not the only time in the whole FF fiction hes faced an opponent, there must be more cutscenes and what not?”

    Only time he faced an opponent? No.
    Only time he’s faced an opponent that we actually get to see in a cutscene? Yeah it is.

    “At best from that you can argue that he uses a sword most of the time hes shown”

    He only used a sword the entire time because he couldn’t use magic in the first place the entire time he is shown in cutscenes, which is AC.

    “It implies game mechanics”

    That’s not game mechanics. Game mechanics are functions in the game that don’t make sense in terms of logic or the context of the story itself. Saying for example that Cloud’s magic stat is 200 would be a game mechanic (because that doesn’t really mean anything in terms of debate against other characters), but saying that he has the highest magic stat proves that Cloud is the most powerful mage in the group right next to Aerith. How would that be game mechanics?

    “What of this;”

    You do realize that was before Cloud was injected with the mako cells right? He doesn’t even have his enhanced strength and speed there, let alone his magic.

  9. Kitten Lord May 16, 2015 at 10:44 am -      #9

    @Winged

    “No it’s not. How is using a showing where he specifically cannot use magic valid for detirmining whether he uses magic or not?”

    Its valid for his MO, as it shows as part of his MO hes happy to go straight to using his sword even in the most dangerous fights, he is not some caster looking for his magic spells the whole time.

    “He only used a sword the entire time because he couldn’t use magic in the first place the entire time he is shown in cutscenes, which is AC.”

    So we have no precedent at all for whether he would or would not use magic, or more specifically what spells he would use.

    “That’s not game mechanics. ”

    Stats are mechanics whether you want to admit it or not. Him having higher MP and shit does not give us any precedent on his behavior.

    “You do realize that was before Cloud was injected with the mako cells right? ”

    Why would I realize that form that scene?

    That leaves us where we began, Cloud only using his sword in every scene we see of him with no precedent for him opening with any magic.

  10. wingedlion May 16, 2015 at 10:52 am -      #10

    “Its valid for his MO, as it shows as part of his MO hes happy to go straight to using his sword even in the most dangerous fights, he is not some caster looking for his magic spells the whole time.”

    The reason why he’s not some caster using his spells is because he can’t use magic at all. You can’t say that’s valid for his MO when he can’t even use his other spells. That’s not viable as evidence against him using magic.

    “Stats are mechanics whether you want to admit it or not.”

    There not though.
    They tell us how he compares to the other characters in the game; in this case how powerful his magic is compared to the others. Those are not game mechanics whether you want to admit it or not.

    “Him having higher MP and shit does not give us any precedent on his behavior.”

    It tells us that Cloud’s magic is pretty much his greatest weapon. And there is nothing in his CIS that is preventing him from using said weapon.

  11. Zazax May 16, 2015 at 10:56 am -      #11

    |Only time he’s faced an opponent that we actually get to see in a cutscene? Yeah it is.”
    Well, there was that brief bit in Dirge of Cerberus, but we only see a couple seconds before it’s carried (and finished) offscreen. And even in those few seconds (consisting of a jump, parry, and explosion) we see at least two uses of magic. Including the explosion.

    “What of this;”
    That’s 5ish years before the original game, before Cloud actually has any materia to use. That’s even before he’s augmented.
    Hell, I think that’s actually his first time using a sword; before that he’s got a standard-issue Shinra gun.

    “You know what I mean, its a superheated sci-fi plasma.”
    And that makes a difference why? Plasma is plasma, and this particular ability doesn’t care how hot something is. All it does is flip it from hurting to healing. Keeps the same magnitude and everything; if it hurts more, it heals more.
    As for stuff it works on in game, it works on things like these:
    img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100405040242/finalfantasy/images/archive/2/23/20140714155529!FFVII_Napalm_Bomb.png
    img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130930014849/finalfantasy/images/a/ac/FFVII_Fire3.png
    img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20121123041614/finalfantasy/images/d/d5/FFVII_Tera_Flare.png
    img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110717034836/finalfantasy/images/3/3a/Beta_ff7_EA.png

    Hell, passive fire absorption is just an example. We could just as easily go with Shield for thoroughness’ sake. Or just forego defense entirely and go with the gratuitous auto-rezzing BS he can pull.

    Still maintain he W-Quad-casts Death the second the match starts, though.

    Quick rules check; does petrification count as Polymorph? Because that’s another ‘I Win’ button for Cloud.

  12. wingedlion May 16, 2015 at 10:59 am -      #12

    @Zazax
    “Well, there was that brief bit in Dirge of Cerberus, but we only see a couple seconds before it’s carried (and finished) offscreen”

    Oh yeah. Forgot about that. Oops.

  13. Zazax May 16, 2015 at 11:06 am -      #13

    “Oh yeah. Forgot about that. Oops.”
    Hey, it’s an easy thing to forget, considering it’s only 5 or so seconds long. And it’s impossible to use as an example either way, since literally all it consists of is Cloud parrying a hit and then a magic explosion. It’s so brief we don’t even get to see him attack back, however he chooses to do so.
    Just mentioned it for thoroughness’ sake, is all.

  14. Friendlysociopath May 16, 2015 at 11:12 am -      #14

    So we have no precedent at all for whether he would or would not use magic, or more specifically what spells he would use.

    How does:
    1) Starting the game with magic when nobody else does
    2) Teaching the other characters how to use magic
    3) Being excited to have new magic to try out in the past
    4) Going straight to where his magic is stored when he knows there’s a threat
    4.5) Visibly being upset at the loss of said magic to the point of swearing
    5) Having magic in other games where we see him
    6) Continuing to search for and gain materia he didn’t have in the original game
    In any way imply he wouldn’t use it? Hell, you encounter people and soldiers that sell and use the stuff all of the time, why would Cloud be so different?

    He wouldn’t stand off at a distance being a proper mage but he’d use spells in between swordplay.

    Aren’t Jedi not even considered bullet-timers around here? That’s not giving Obi good odds for even a physical fight.
    Allowing Cloud magic turns it into murder, the Final Fantasy hax can be very strong when used correctly.

  15. Kitten Lord May 16, 2015 at 11:17 am -      #15

    @Wing

    “There not though.”

    Gonna have to agree to disagree then because stats on characters are imo purely for the players understanding of in-game capabilities.

    @Zazax

    “Plasma is plasma, and this particular ability doesn’t care how hot something is.”

    Lets see the ability and what it actually says please.

    “Still maintain he W-Quad-casts Death the second the match starts, though.”

    until you have a precedent for Cloud doing this then its no more logical than saying Obi-wan goes for a Darth vader style force choke (course, this is when the true SW fans come and tell me that is his mo……)

    ” go with the gratuitous auto-rezzing BS he can pull.”

    Again, no doubt riddled with gameplay mechanics.

    Then consider hes facing a pretty fast opponent, and his spells take time to cast.

    @Friendly

    “He wouldn’t stand off at a distance being a proper mage but he’d use spells in between swordplay.”

    To what extent? What spells? Zazax is being pretty specific as if he knows exactly what Cloud not only canonically has on him as a standard but what he pulls out. Just because its probably his favorite tactic in-game when hes playing.

  16. Nsl98 May 16, 2015 at 11:19 am -      #16

    More speed:
    Droids closing rapidly on their [Anakin and Obi-Wan’s] tails, cannonfire stitching space on all sides, the two Jedi pulled their ships through perfectly mirrored rolls that sent them streaking head-on for each other from opposite ends of a vast Republic cruiser. For merely human pilots, this would be suicide. By the time you can see your partner’s starfighter streaking toward you at a respectable fraction of lightspeed, it’s already too late for your merely human reflexes to react.

    But these particular pilots were far from merely human.
    -Revenge of the Sith

    Moving as a blur:
    And in that instant, Obi-Wan disappeared in a blur, headed for Cohl’s pod.
    -Cloak of Deception

    Force enhanced speed:
    m.youtube.com/watch?v=MY4tXUtu9_I

    FTE movement:
    “Very well, then,” the Jedi said, and shot straight upward over Dooku’s head so fast it seemed he’d vanished.
    -Revenge of the Sith

  17. Kitten Lord May 16, 2015 at 11:28 am -      #17

    Based on above I have yet to see any evidence that Cloud would not be blitzed by such a maneuver, especially while spending seconds casting spells.

    Also looked up dirge of cerberus scene, it may be quick but its interesting how Cloud goes straight for sword blocking without any sight of magic. Further covering my view of him.

  18. Friendlysociopath May 16, 2015 at 11:40 am -      #18

    To what extent? What spells?

    Truth be told the spell itself really doesn’t matter; Obi has no defense against most of them so using almost any magic would mean Cloud wins:

    Thunder, strikes Obi with a lightning bolt, KO
    Fire, sets Obi on fire, maybe not KO but a good portion of the way
    Comet, throws meteorites at Obi, KO
    Break, turns Obi to stone, KO
    Enemy Skill- Bad Breath, poisons, confuses, silences, and puts Obi to sleep, KO
    Seal- Sleep, silence, Obi without Force, KO
    And then he has Summons, which we’ve seen are entirely able to go around doing their own thing without Cloud’s input.

    Based on above I have yet to see any evidence that Cloud would not be blitzed by such a maneuver, especially while spending seconds casting spells.

    It takes a wave of the hand, Cloud can wave his hand very quickly.

    it may be quick but its interesting how Cloud goes straight for sword blocking without any sight of magic

    She’s like two feet in front of him…
    What exactly is your argument btw? Cloud won’t use magic at all or just not as a first resort? The latter you can get away with, the first you most certainly will not.

    Cloud not only canonically has on him as a standard

    Well canonically he gets like 4 materia that let him use every spell at once so fight that battle however you want.
    Master Magic = All Magic
    Master Summon = All Summons
    and so on

  19. Ragnorke May 16, 2015 at 11:45 am -      #19

    Off Topic, but i missed seeing you around Winged!
    Would be nice to have Ober & Xornell back too :(

  20. Zazax May 16, 2015 at 11:56 am -      #20

    “Lets see the ability and what it actually says please.”
    There’s a couple different ways of doing this.
    The first one is via a level 3 or higher Elemental Materia paired with a Fire materia on Cloud’s bangle.
    finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Support_Materia_(Final_Fantasy_VII)
    In the ‘Elemental’ section of the table: “Armor absorbs element of linked Materia.”

    The second way to do it is to use a Tetra Elemental:
    finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_Final_Fantasy_VII_Accessories#Reducing_damage

    The third is with a Fire Armlet:
    finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_Final_Fantasy_VII_Armor#Fire_Armlet

    Note that those are just the ways to *absorb* fire damage. It’s much easier to nullify it instead, which is ironic since that’s closer to being an NLF.

    “until you have a precedent for Cloud doing this then its no more logical than saying Obi-wan goes for a Darth vader style force choke”
    Not even close to the same thing. Death is a spell Cloud has access to (it’s on the Destruct materia, which is common enough that you can buy the damn thing), and nothing whatsoever in his CIS prevents him from using it. Quite the opposite, in fact.
    Force Choke, on the other hand, is the sort of thing Obi-Wan has a large amount of CIS against.

    “Again, no doubt riddled with gameplay mechanics.”
    Uh, no, using abilities that do exactly that. The easy answer is Final Attack (attached spell automatically goes off on death) + Phoenix (revives dead characters and bathes enemies in fire). Would work five times (once for each level of Final Attack). Considering Crisis Core is a thing and retconned Phoenix Downs into also being capable of Reraise (buff that automatically raises you the next time you die), there’s the argument that that’s a thing too, but it’s probably unneeded. 5 Final Attacks + 99 Phoenix Downs (for a total of 104 self-rezzes) would be hilarious, though.

    “Then consider hes facing a pretty fast opponent, and his spells take time to cast.”
    Cloud’s pretty fast himself, and Crisis Core dropped materia casting times significantly.

    At 0:04 we get Zack casting Fire in less than a second.

    “Zazax is being pretty specific as if he knows exactly what Cloud not only canonically has on him as a standard but what he pulls out. Just because its probably his favorite tactic in-game when hes playing.”
    I’m suggesting them because they’re easy ways to win. Cloud’s already had several insta-win spells taken away from him in the stipulations, but he’s got a few more.
    As for suggesting them because they’re my favourite tactic, far from it. Death is actually fairly lackluster in the game. Most basic enemies go down more efficiently without having to use it, and most (but, significantly, not all) of the stuff you would want to kill with it (notably, bosses) have Contractual Boss Immunity, so it doesn’t work.
    Death is just super-effective in out-of-gameplay scenarios, because it does exactly what it says, and nobody has that pesky Contractual Boss Immunity (unless they have a reason for having it. Cloud can easily be immune to it himself, for example).

  21. Kitten Lord May 16, 2015 at 11:56 am -      #21

    @Friendly

    “It takes a wave of the hand, Cloud can wave his hand very quickly.”

    Can I see some evidence of this, I distinctly recall the seconds it takes to cast a number of powers in the games.

    “She’s like two feet in front of him…
    What exactly is your argument btw? Cloud won’t use magic at all or just not as a first resort? The latter you can get away with, the first you most certainly will not.”

    Shes flying down from the air for like 3 seconds, Cloud does not do anything until hes been struck and when faced with her, instead of “waving his hand” and killing her with death or casting any spell to defend himself he uses his sword….

    Tells me either magics not as easy as waving your hand OR he does not jump straight to magic when faced with an opponent.

    My argument is before people start listing their favorite combos when their playing they should stop and realize their not in the match playing, its Cloud whos fighting for himself, not them.

    “Well canonically he gets like 4 materia that let him use every spell at once so fight that battle however you want.
    Master Magic = All Magic
    Master Summon = All Summons”

    So are those standard? If so, fair enough. He has all magic and summons. If its player choice that he has those and their unlocked in the game/not mentioned or implied in the canon then….meh.

    Again I cannot see many summons in that dirge of cerberus scene either.

    “Truth be told the spell itself really doesn’t matter; Obi has no defense against most of them so using almost any magic would mean Cloud wins:

    Thunder, strikes Obi with a lightning bolt, KO
    Fire, sets Obi on fire, maybe not KO but a good portion of the way
    Comet, throws meteorites at Obi, KO
    Break, turns Obi to stone, KO
    Enemy Skill- Bad Breath, poisons, confuses, silences, and puts Obi to sleep, KO
    Seal- Sleep, silence, Obi without Force, KO”

    I will admit, I do not think Obi has any defense at all against sorcery. Hence why my argument is, would Cloud start off spamming those OR, will he be faced with an opponent with a sword all of a sudden, force speeding his way into him.

  22. Friendlysociopath May 16, 2015 at 12:31 pm -      #22

    Can I see some evidence of this

    Uh let’s see…
    A bit after 2:00


    Later when the President calls him a dumbass, (the thing he’s been looking for all movie and destroying shit for the president had on him the whole time) he just raises his hand to fire a blast at him without the big “haha look at my power” aura.

    And should be at 0:43 or so here


    I distinctly recall the seconds it takes to cast a number of powers in the games.

    It takes like 5 seconds of channeling to use a Limit Break too, then in Advent Children it pretty much becomes ‘at will’.


    Also, general reflexes feat for Cloud that some people don’t know about because it’s from Complete

    Rides through a collapsing building to save Tifa, his sword is apparently a functional boomerang too.

  23. Friendlysociopath May 16, 2015 at 12:43 pm -      #23

    Eh, double-post

    Pheonix and the like only helps with KO, not death. Final Fantasy doesn’t have a way to bring dead people back to life.

    If its player choice that he has those and their unlocked in the game/not mentioned or implied in the canon then….meh.

    I know for sure one of them is story related as it’s what Shinra tries shooting at the Meteor to blow it up.

    Again I cannot see many summons in that dirge of cerberus scene either.

    That would be for two reasons:
    1) It’s Vincent’s game, it’s literally an entire game just for him, they don’t want the other characters to have too much screen time.
    2) Limited budget, they outright said they left Red XIII out of that game altogether because he’s so expensive to animate.

    Hence why my argument is, would Cloud start off spamming those OR, will he be faced with an opponent with a sword all of a sudden, force speeding his way into him.

    Oh he’d use his sword first, no question; but he also has magic that he won’t have a problem using if he wants to. And if he does, he wins.
    I don’t think Obi-Wan has the strength to deal with Cloud though, one strike from Cloud and Obi’Wan’s going to find himself in the next building…
    wait, they’re on the Helicarrier? On the deck or inside? Cause Cloud’s bullshit agile inside buildings-

  24. Nsl98 May 16, 2015 at 12:54 pm -      #24

    While not quite on Cloud’s level of strength, Kenobi can enhance himself with the Force:
    A single slash of his lightsaber amputated the shoulder cannon of one power droid and continued into a spinning Force-assisted kick that brought his boot heel to the point of the other power droid’s duranium chin, snapping the droid’s head back hard enough to sever its cervical sensor cables.
    -Revenge of the Sith

    But Obi-Wan’s arm had the Force to give it strength, and the general’s arm only had the innate crystalline intermolecular structure of duranium alloy.
    Grievous’ forearm bent like a cheap spoon.

    -Revenge of the Sith

    one strike from Cloud

    Which would be blocked by the Lightsaber, and Cloud finds his sword cut in two.

    Wait, doesn’t he have like, five other swords with him?

  25. Friendlysociopath May 16, 2015 at 1:07 pm -      #25

    Which would be blocked by the Lightsaber, and Cloud finds his sword cut in two.

    Oh dear NS, you know those swords are lightsaber-proof.

    Later in the same video, (3:51) you can see how cutting a sword in half as it’s coming at you really doesn’t help that much.

    Wait, doesn’t he have like, five other swords with him?

    Yep, and the bike, standard equipment; bike’s not really important here though.

    Don’t forget he can do this too-

    That’s going so fast that Sephiroth, who can speedblitz people who run through machinegunfire, can’t keep track of him btw.
    (Oh this is more of that, ‘hand wave’ magic btw Kitten, just so you know, first video about 2:18 in or so)

  26. Zazax May 16, 2015 at 1:24 pm -      #26

    “”Pheonix and the like only helps with KO, not death. Final Fantasy doesn’t have a way to bring dead people back to life.”
    Normally true, but FF7 is one of the few FF games where the status is actually called Death, as opposed to Knocked Out, Swoon, or whatever.
    img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20091028050049/finalfantasy/images/0/02/FFVII_Status_Screen_3.png
    There is the argument that this refers only to ‘Instant Death’, such as what the Death spell or Odin inflict, but the idea that it is literally death is backed up by the other status ‘Near-Death’, which itself is known in other games as HP Critical. There’s no mention of knocked out anywhere.
    Even the description for the Phoenix Down (at least in the version I have. Apparently some people report different ones) is ‘restores life’.

    Of course, this brings up the question of why they can’t bring Aerith back, but I’m willing to write it off as Gameplay-Story Segregation. My Headcanon, at least, is that since upon death people rejoin the Lifestream there’s some sort of time limit, which was passed during the Jenova fight. But, again, that’s just Headcanon.

  27. Nsl98 May 16, 2015 at 1:25 pm -      #27

    lightsaber-proof

    Drat, forgot about that. Really need to replay/watch the FF7 Compilation sometime…

    so fast that Sephiroth

    So, Cloud’s Omnislash is massively supersonic+ to low end hypersonic?

    I think Kenobi may be able to react, based on this:
    For merely human pilots, this would be suicide. By the time you can see your partner’s starfighter streaking toward you at a respectable fraction of lightspeed, it’s already too late for your merely human reflexes to react.
    But these particular pilots were far from merely human.

    -Revenge of the Sith

    The pilots talked about are Kenobi and Anakin.

  28. Limbo Lowk May 16, 2015 at 1:28 pm -      #28

    “You’ll note that the first thing he does when he realizes there’s a threat is to go home to pick them all up, but is too late.”

    To be fair you’d at least expect him to carry some of it on him considering how dangerous his world seems to be. But Nooo mans got to have space for his assortement of overcompensation blades.

  29. Kitten Lord May 16, 2015 at 2:01 pm -      #29

    @Friendly

    “Uh let’s see…
    A bit after 2:00″

    I see a relatively long charge up there…not exactly the “wave of your hand”, it is, if you do it slowly enough sure.

    But those only prove you can shoot energy bolts at speed, I mean if thats enough (i doubt it, they do not look to o fast for obi to dodge) to get him it may be a good tactic.

    “It takes like 5 seconds of channeling to use a Limit Break too, then in Advent Children it pretty much becomes ‘at will’.”

    Cloud was charging for a few seconds there though, if the limit break was the blade beam?

    “That would be for two reasons:
    1) It’s Vincent’s game, it’s literally an entire game just for him, they don’t want the other characters to have too much screen time.
    2) Limited budget, they outright said they left Red XIII out of that game altogether because he’s so expensive to animate.”

    Fair enough I suppose but that still leaves the scenes in a summon less state, also thats low budget? they had a shit ton of stuff going on earlier, all kinds of things in that battle.

    “I don’t think Obi-Wan has the strength to deal with Cloud though, one strike from Cloud and Obi’Wan’s going to find himself in the next building…”

    Thats why I am relying on obi wons precog/speed, then he can follow up with a beheading. Like i said I am not sure cloud is as fast nor does he have precog.

    “(Oh this is more of that, ‘hand wave’ magic btw Kitten, just so you know, first video about 2:18 in or so)”

    Aye, a second or two casting time still though, not something you can do if obi is swinging away at you, and the battle is set in a small place, possibly in small corridors. Not much room assuming Cloud backs off to use magic.

    They also consistently seem to be bolts of energy when they use spells, perhaps other materia like death and what not were retconned or only part of the gameplay, seems odd how the characters consistently use basic bolts of energy instead of time control or instant death that is apparently not too rare?

    @Lowk

    “To be fair you’d at least expect him to carry some of it on him considering how dangerous his world seems to be. But Nooo mans got to have space for his assortement of overcompensation blades.”

    This is a good point actually, Cloud is in a fairly dangerous universe, enough so for him to carry his sword around with him all the time, yet his magic/materia are left behind.

    Does not sound like someone who relies much on magic at all, or who is that keen at least as far MO comes into it anyway.

    So far it looks like its going to come down to who is faster with the sword. Cloud or Obi, and I am moving towards obi what with his precog and stuff cutting off Clouds anime face…..

  30. Friendlysociopath May 16, 2015 at 2:25 pm -      #30

    I see a relatively long charge up there

    The charge time is just him showing off, cut him some slack he’s only a few days old.

    Cloud was charging for a few seconds there though

    Later in the Sephiroth fight he uses it with no charge time whatsoever.

    also thats low budget?

    Limited, not low; summons weren’t necessary nor were they the point. The focus of that game is the WRO troops and Vincent; everyone else was pretty much a “Yeah, they’re here too”.
    ^That’s an actual line spoken by a WRO trooper early in the game.
    Most of the cast that isn’t Vincent, Yuffie, or Reeves have like two or three lines of dialogue.

    I think Kenobi may be able to react, based on this:

    Ehhhh, calling that one BS considering how much they can’t react to in the movies; especially in that exact battle we can see they aren’t going anywhere near lightspeed judging by how fast missiles and other ships were going.

    So, Cloud’s Omnislash is massively supersonic+ to low end hypersonic?

    Actually, trying to find out Cloud’s speed is sort of fun and sort of “Goddamit”:
    in the Ultimania it states Cloud’s original Omnislash happens “in the blink of an eye”. If you take that literally that means base Omnislash is anywhere from Mach 12 to Mach 47 depending on how long you blink.
    Omnislash versions 5 and 6 are so fast that someone who can easily block the original can’t even follow it.
    (Yes yes, possible hyperbole, however, allow me the next point)
    img801.imageshack.us/img801/9841/proofi.jpg
    That attack Kadaj throws at Cloud? Multiple lightning bolt, which Cloud proceeds to dodge and then attack him.
    I would call BS on that if Vincent didn’t show in DoC when they’re going all-out they go way faster than I would think.

    Cloud is in a fairly dangerous universe

    Not really, he regards monsters as no problem even at the start of the game.
    Also, and this is just a thought mind you, he’s kind of dying so it makes sense he wouldn’t want to carry very valuable and dangerous materia around with him when he could die out in the middle of nowhere.

    So far it looks like its going to come down to who is faster with the sword.

    That would be Cloud by a pretty large margin.

  31. Nsl98 May 16, 2015 at 2:37 pm -      #31

    especially in that exact battle we can see they aren’t going anywhere near lightspeed judging by how fast missiles and other ships were going.

    Wasn’t this discussed in another SW thread? Fairly recently? Maybe I’m just imagining things…

    It could have easily been cinematic effect, so that way we can see the action. The omnipotent narrator of the novel would seem to want us believe it’s a “respectable fraction of lightspeed.”

  32. Friendlysociopath May 16, 2015 at 2:49 pm -      #32

    It could have easily been cinematic effect, so that way we can see the action. The omnipotent narrator of the novel


    Remember? Star Wars has a canon hierarchy- allowing EU doesn’t stop that, anything that contradicts the movies doesn’t count; this is entirely a one-way road too. We also know that was in real-time because they’re talking to one another basically the whole fight.
    So movie visuals > any novel, omnipotent narrator or no.

    Fairly recently?

    When was the last Star Wars thread? We haven’t had one of those for a while I don’t think.

    seems odd how the characters consistently use basic bolts of energy instead of time control or instant death that is apparently not too rare?

    How would you animate a fight around an instant death spell? Or a time stop?
    Boring, boring, boring- notice how any time someone in a match has a time stop it instantly becomes “Yeah, other guy can’t do jack”?
    That’s why we ban them a lot of the time haha, you can’t make an interesting fight like that.

  33. Nsl98 May 16, 2015 at 3:00 pm -      #33

    So movie visuals > any novel, omnipotent narrator or no

    Mmm. Ok.

    When was the last Star Wars thread?

    April.
    January, Feb., and March, SW also got a lot of matches.

  34. Kitten Lord May 16, 2015 at 3:41 pm -      #34

    @Friendly

    “That would be Cloud by a pretty large margin.”

    I think you overestimate Clouds speed, how by a large margin when Obi has precog and decent enough speed in those scenes posted so far? The only thing that “,may” be faster is ominslash which is a specific move which seems to rely on someone under a lot of PiS to just hover there while you hit them.

    “How would you animate a fight around an instant death spell? Or a time stop?
    Boring, boring, boring- notice how any time someone in a match has a time stop it instantly becomes “Yeah, other guy can’t do jack”?
    That’s why we ban them a lot of the time haha, you can’t make an interesting fight like that.”

    Arguable, DmC and Bayonetta use time powers and they are actually pretty cool scenes and Harry potter verse nameing one throw instant killing magic all the time. I am pretty sure theres a way to show fights in an interesting manner than just sparklers all the time…..

  35. Friendlysociopath May 16, 2015 at 7:29 pm -      #35

    I think you overestimate Clouds speed

    Considering BankGambling barely says Jedi can deflect bullets; and Cloud, Sephiroth, and Zack can all block machinegunfire quite casually. No, I don’t think I am; especially not when Kadaj apparently threw lightning at him-
    I personally always thought it was Matra Magic, which I considered as very weird to use such a niche spell; but the transcript says lightning bolt- which does make more sense.

    DmC and Bayonetta use time powers and they are actually pretty cool scenes

    From what I’ve seen of Bayonetta and DmC time slows, Advent Children’s fight scenes are far more complex. Also, “time stop” not “time slow”.
    ‘Time stop’ is, “Okay, you can’t move, die.”
    ‘Time slow’ is, “Okay, everyone’s going slower.”

    Harry potter verse nameing one throw instant killing magic all the time

    Most of Harry Potter fights are silly looking, I mean watch this:
    youtu.be/E8x_ml8-bo0?t=3m
    Amazing choreography, beautiful movement- nope, boring as hell. The Order teleporting around is by far more visually attractive and interesting that them throwing magic back and forth.
    Key note, 3:59 “Oh, he died from that”.

    What the hell is that arch btw? I don’t recall that ever actually being explained.

  36. Limbo Lowk May 16, 2015 at 8:25 pm -      #36

    “Considering BankGambling barely says Jedi can deflect bullets; and Cloud, Sephiroth, and Zack can all block machinegunfire quite casually. ”

    Without EU, Jedi should be able to block bullets from a few meters the same as they would blaster up close.
    With EU they are closer to spider-man like reflexes up to the point of letting them block lasers.

  37. Ordo11 May 16, 2015 at 10:57 pm -      #37

    Why is everyone using plasma for a lightsaber, I just want to know, because as far as I can tell it should be a particle beam.

  38. Friendlysociopath May 16, 2015 at 11:23 pm -      #38

    @Ordo
    starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Lightsaber

    “The weapon consisted of a blade of pure plasma emitted from the hilt and suspended in a force containment field.”

  39. Alpha or Omega May 17, 2015 at 12:05 am -      #39

    “it should be a particle beam.”
    /
    Plasma is pretty much charged particles.
    Same thing.

  40. seradon May 17, 2015 at 12:33 am -      #40

    “Hell, I think that’s actually his first time using a sword; before that he’s got a standard-issue Shinra gun”

    Actually his first time shown swinging a sword was during bodyguard detail in Before Crisis (phone game). In it, he spends the whole mission getting his ass kicked until he randomly picks up a sword near the end and kills some dudes before they even noticed he swung. Turns out he’s just that much better with a sword than a bloody machine gun.

    _

    “Does not sound like someone who relies much on magic at all, or who is that keen at least as far MO comes into it anyway”

    The whole party tries to refrain from actively using it post-FFVII since it’s the crystallized life of the planet and all that. They still go back to get it both during Advent Children and Dirge of Cerberus, despite the fact Kadaj’s crew stole it in the movie.

  41. Zazax May 17, 2015 at 12:50 am -      #41

    In regards to Materia cast times, I take it nobody saw the video I linked in post 20? It shows basic, non-summon materia cast times to be less than a second.

    “I think you overestimate Clouds speed, how by a large margin when Obi has precog and decent enough speed in those scenes posted so far?”
    The precog may be an issue, but Cloud is probably still fast enough to overcome it. This is a guy fast enough to fight two superhumans, themselves bullet-timers, at once in close combat while simultaneously deflecting bullets from a third. With no precog. That is massively, massively more impressive than Kenobi’s feats.

    There is also the issue of Kenobi being unable to actually kill Cloud, whether by passive fire absorption/immunity, the casting of Shield (if there’s any spell Cloud would open a fight with, it’s a good defensive buff like that one), Cloud’s ridiculous healing/recovery ability, or his self-rezzes.

    Hell, on the topic of heat resistance, as was requested earlier, we do have Cloud spending at absolute minimum 12 seconds totally unharmed inside a Whatever-Flare from Bahamut SIN in Advent Children, which earlier was instantly melting buildings. If you include the time from the cutaway to Tifa and his encounter with Aerith, it goes up to 26 seconds.

  42. Kitten Lord May 17, 2015 at 6:13 am -      #42

    @Friendly

    “Considering BankGambling barely says Jedi can deflect bullets; and Cloud, Sephiroth, and Zack can all block machinegunfire quite casually.”

    How do you know they can all block machinegunfire when cloud has so little sreen time? From the quotes on Obi he can also leap and dodge around blasters shooting at him from all sides. not to mention he has the force, couldnt he just knock Cloud down whenever he tries to do any of his agile little jumps?

    “From what I’ve seen of Bayonetta and DmC time slows, Advent Children’s fight scenes are far more complex. Also, “time stop” not “time slow”.
    ‘Time stop’ is, “Okay, you can’t move, die.”
    ‘Time slow’ is, “Okay, everyone’s going slower.””

    This is nitpicky, replace time stop or time slow with anything from the FF spell list and you would at least have something other than “sparklerz!” which are indeed boring.

    “Amazing choreography, beautiful movement- nope, boring as hell”

    So is sparklers flying about every time magic is used though, gets old especially when you know there are more spells……

    @Zazax

    “we do have Cloud spending at absolute minimum 12 seconds totally unharmed inside a Whatever-Flare from Bahamut SIN in Advent Children, which earlier was instantly melting buildings.”

    As for “instantly melting buildings”, a bit of a reach considering his bolts of blue fire look more like impacts from RPG’s or missles, hardly melting really, more explosive and thats when they hit the target. There is no knowing whether the sphere of magic itself is dangerous before it strikes.

  43. Ordo11 May 17, 2015 at 7:11 am -      #43

    Umm, the reason I asked is because blasters, are described as particle beam weapons. They are supposed to be a type of frozen blaster technology. I will get the quotes, but I don’t know if it will count. Is this Disney eu or old eu.

  44. Friendlysociopath May 17, 2015 at 9:33 am -      #44

    How do you know they can all block machinegunfire when cloud has so little sreen time?

    “So little screen time”
    rofl- a movie, a 30 minute animated short, 4 different video games, and like 5 crossover titles.
    Zack, before he was promoted to 1st class, could run through 5 soldiers all firing automatic weapons at him. Cloud directly takes feats from Zack, to say Cloud and Sephiroth can do the same is extremely underselling how fast they should be able to go considering every time Zack fought Sephiroth he was hopelessly outmatched in strength and speed.


    There is no knowing whether the sphere of magic itself is dangerous before it strikes.

    Well that’s a silly argument if I’ve ever heard one.
    “This thing explodes when it hits the ground and is made of fire- but it’s not dangerous until it hits”
    Would kind of make the scene pretty pointless if Cloud wasn’t in danger when doing it.

    couldnt he just knock Cloud down whenever he tries to do any of his agile little jumps?

    He’d have to use more force than Cloud was outputting in his jumps to overcome the force Cloud was exerting, a sketchy proposition at best.

  45. Kitten Lord May 17, 2015 at 9:47 am -      #45

    @Friendly

    “rofl- a movie, a 30 minute animated short, 4 different video games, and like 5 crossover titles.”

    I thought so, despite all that Cloud is never shown doing what you claimed, which is dishonest. You should have pointed out you were powerscaling from Zack.

    “Sephiroth he was hopelessly outmatched in strength and speed.”

    You and I have different definitions of hopelessly outmatched. Looks to my like Zack although clearly inferior held his ground for a short period and not once did they go much faster if at all than Jedis fighting in SW movies, let alone EU.

    “Well that’s a silly argument”

    You believing it to be dangerous in flight would suggest you have seen evidence of it damaging objects passing through it before? All I have seen is Cloud, while projecting some sort of spiritual energy ahead of him (possibly a shield?) going into it. Every other time in that scene it explodes on contact.

    Considering it only deals damage on strike to things it hits, and objects it passes close to do not suddenly burst into flame I can hardly compare its “heat” to a light saber which melts through blast doors and what not.

    “He’d have to use more force than Cloud was outputting in his jumps to overcome the force Cloud was exerting, a sketchy proposition at best.”

    Not much then because Cloud is a skinny little fellow, so how much force do you really think Obi would have to output?

  46. Friendlysociopath May 17, 2015 at 10:07 am -      #46

    despite all that Cloud is never shown doing what you claimed

    He actually does in like two of the fights I posted; at this point I’ve posted almost half the movie.

    Here, Crisis Core opening, 2nd class Zack vs several guys with machineguns. It’s not even powerscaling, Cloud outright takes Zacks feats because for a while he is Zack. Then Cloud gets better.


    Looks to my like Zack although clearly inferior held his ground for a short period

    He looks up and is startled by how close Sephiroth is to him several times in that fight; speedblitzed. 1st class SOLDIERS like Genesis and Angeal can’t keep up with Sephiroth when he exerts himself.

    You believing it to be dangerous in flight would suggest you have seen evidence of it damaging objects passing through it before?

    Yes, Cloud, because he’s noticeably pained by flying through it.

    Not much then because Cloud is a skinny little fellow, so how much force do you really think Obi would have to output?

    Enough to overcome the force Cloud is jumping with, his weight is the least important part of that.

  47. Kitten Lord May 17, 2015 at 10:26 am -      #47

    @Friendly

    “Here, Crisis Core opening, 2nd class Zack vs several guys with machineguns. It’s not even powerscaling, Cloud outright takes Zacks feats because for a while he is Zack. Then Cloud gets better.”

    Those guys must get literally no training because even when he has his back to them and their opening up they cannot hit him. Hardly an impressive feat if the guys in question cannot hit you when your stationary and your back is turned. I mean shit, I could be labeled as a casual bullet timer by your logic just by swapping me out with Zack in the scene of him standing there.

    Also explain how Cloud is Zack.

    “He looks up and is startled by how close Sephiroth is to him several times in that fight; ”

    He blocks a lot of Sephiroths blows, if it was truly so fast hes beyond him then he should not be able to do so at all. Like I covered, their not moving any faster, possibly slower than Anakin vs obi wan.

    “Yes, Cloud, because he’s noticeably pained by flying through it.”

    So nothing concrete beyond a bit of pain then? Yes I thought it was a waste of time me watching it.

    “Enough to overcome the force Cloud is jumping with, his weight is the least important part of that.”

    Its pretty important actually, since countering gravity by leaping a few meters when your very small or light like Cloud is is not as impressive as if he was heavy.

    youtu.be/7oGf-a1Dqlc?t=71

    Here we can see Obi breaking the supports of an almost car sized hunk of metal. He does other feats of course but lets use that one as a gauge, how much force do you think Cloud can leap with when Obi can you know, output at least a ton as a lowball.

  48. seradon May 17, 2015 at 10:42 am -      #48

    “despite all that Cloud is never shown doing what you claimed”
    Getting shot is one of the first things that happens in the game.

    It keeps happening.

    Of course, it’s hard to tell whether Cloud is actually getting shot at or not since most of the times he’s being shot at it happens during battle, but then there’s scenes like youtu.be/bD30zeFe4vk?list=PLawwJPcwj4dfxPzz4XQJnwJMJnobpcFJP&t=1305 where the troops are clearly shooting at him with no effect.

  49. Kitten Lord May 17, 2015 at 10:56 am -      #49

    Looks like he just runs around to the next street, I see no great dodges or feats of speed.

    So far the best I have seen is aim blocking while fighting Loz/ Yazoo with his massive shield like sword…..they seem to be poor shooters as well. I wonder if its a running gag like in old action movies where the villains even when firing untold amounts of bullets do not seem to hit anything.

  50. seradon May 17, 2015 at 11:32 am -      #50

    “I see no great dodges or feats of speed.”
    That scene was just an example really. FF7 doesn’t have much in the way of awesome fight cinematics showcasing Cloud’s feats, since the game actually focused more on the flower girl and the crazy dude with the Oedipus complex than SOLDIER members superhuman abilities You’d have to wait for Square Enix to do a remake if you want them to actually add that kind of shit it.

    Regardless, it is a canon fact that all individuals that successfully go through the SOLDIER treatment receive superhuman physical abilities, and due to complications occurring during the end of Crisis Core, Cloud inherits all of Zack’s combat abilities and actually surpasses him.

    _
    “Here we can see Obi breaking the supports of an almost car sized hunk of metal. He does other feats of course but lets use that one as a gauge, how much force do you think Cloud can leap with when Obi can you know, output at least a ton as a lowball”
    That’s pretty damn low-tier considering Cloud can effortlessly cut through several tons worth of falling concrete and clears over a hundred meters with a single jump. All this while physically exhausted due to facing off against his strongest adversary after a whole day of fighting. Keep in mind he can outpower the guy who dropped a damn skyscraper on and actually does so in more than a few occasions.

  51. wingedlion May 17, 2015 at 11:43 am -      #51

    “Off Topic, but i missed seeing you around Winged!”

    Thanks!

    “Those guys must get literally no training because even when he has his back to them and their opening up they cannot hit him. Hardly an impressive feat if the guys in question cannot hit you when your stationary and your back is turned.”

    Which scene are you talking about? Could you tell me the time. It also does not change the fact that Zack was still blocking bullets.

    “I mean shit, I could be labeled as a casual bullet timer by your logic just by swapping me out with Zack in the scene of him standing there.”

    You can block bullets? Proof?

    “aim blocking”

    Is not a real thing. You can’t aim block a bullet. You can aim dodge it sure, but the fact that you can even move your sword fast enough to willingly interact with a bullet means your a bullet timer, otherwise the bullet would have reached it’s target before you could even put up the sword.

    Also, actual bullet dodging at 1:54 in the same video. It couldn’t have been aim-dodging cause those bullets came out of nowhere; Zack didn’t even see the guns or where they were aiming.

  52. Kitten Lord May 17, 2015 at 11:59 am -      #52

    @Wing

    ” It also does not change the fact that Zack was still blocking bullets.”

    Well sure, if you fire a machinegun at someone some bullets are bound to hit his sword.

    “You can block bullets? Proof?”

    Get me some of those shinra soldiers fireing and ill just stand with my back to them and you will have your proof :)

    “Is not a real thing.”

    It is, its just that instead of dodging out of the way of someones aim, you bring up your “defence”, your moving your arm/sword instead of your legs. So its arguably easier than moving your whole body out of the way…

    Easier still when your defence is a sword bigger than you are.

    “Zack didn’t even see the guns or where they were aiming.”

    he does not have to because their shit at aiming, their shooting at his feet? why? They just made him dance for some reason. He was not actually looking at bullets either, hes looking at the floor.

    Typical action movie villain tropes.

  53. seradon May 17, 2015 at 12:07 pm -      #53

    “Easier still when your defence is a sword bigger than you are”
    What about when he doesn’t have a sword?

    Playback apparently isn’t working so just skip to 5:03.

  54. wingedlion May 17, 2015 at 12:11 pm -      #54

    @Kitten
    “Well sure, if you fire a machinegun at someone some bullets are bound to hit his sword.”

    If you fire a machine gun at someone and their not bullet timers there is no way he will be able to block all the bullets in his way with a sword, if at all. You will get hit by at least some of them if not all. You have to be moving your arm at the same speed in order to even attempt to block a bullet (unless you have precog of course) otherwise you are bound to get hit.

    “Get me some of those shinra soldiers fireing and ill just stand with my back to them and you will have your proof :)”

    I asked where the time was for this. You have yet to show me where this happened. It also still does not change the fact that he was blocking bullets with his sword, ergo bullet timing.

    “It is, its just that instead of dodging out of the way of someones aim, you bring up your “defence”, your moving your arm/sword instead of your legs. So its arguably easier than moving your whole body out of the way…”

    The only way that is going to work is if you can move your arm and sword fast enough to block the bullet. Otherwise your simply going to get shot. You won’t be able to predict where the bullet itself is going to go, and tracking the aim will be useless because you still have to put the sword up in time to deflect the bullet, which is impossible unless your actions are just as fast.
    So yeah, you can’t aim-block. Aim dodge sure, but if your blocking bullets you are a bullet timer.

    “their shooting at his feet? why? ”

    To catch him off gaurd. Why else?

    “He was not actually looking at bullets either, hes looking at the floor.”

    So? He’s still dodging the bullets without warning and without being able to track their aim. That’s bullet-dodging.

  55. DokuSaki May 17, 2015 at 12:25 pm -      #55

    Ok here is some things.
    All magic in all universes is at instant speed. How do i know this for ff 7? dissida, crisis core and advent children.

    cloud in advent children can jump upto a roof on a two story building ease.
    Cloud is actually quite fast he can block a bullet about a foot in front of him.

    His strength is stupid high. he cut through concrete like butter. He can block blows from sephiroth who can level skyscrapers in a slash block blows that cause creators.

    Other thing to nkte if he gets ultima weapon then he is unblockable and gains a massive damage increase.

    Can obi block forces that with destroy buildings and if so can he do it without the force and can he keep it up witb the force for hours. because when cloud attacks that all he does. his style is brute force. also odds he has access to zedinch and mystalguard.

    I dont think obi can him. he can tank 100s of impalings like they are nothing. i dont think heat from the lightbsaber is gonna mean much when access to he full item collection and materia. Personally i think it will be a case of cloud swings sword. obi blocks gets sent flying then gets blade beams finishing touched and omnislashed to death.

  56. DokuSaki May 17, 2015 at 12:27 pm -      #56

    Ok here is some things.
    All magic in all universes is at instant speed. How do i know this for ff 7? dissida, crisis core and advent children.
    cloud in advent children can jump upto a roof on a two story building ease.
    Cloud is actually quite fast he can block a bullet about a foot in front of him.
    His strength is stupid high. he cut through concrete like butter. He can block blows from sephiroth who can level skyscrapers in a slash block blows that cause creators.
    Other thing to nkte if he gets ultima weapon then he is unblockable and gains a massive damage increase.
    Can obi block forces that with destroy buildings and if so can he do it without the force and can he keep it up witb the force for hours. because when cloud attacks that all he does. his style is brute force. also odds he has access to zedinch and mystalguard.
    I dont think obi can him. he can tank 100s of impalings like they are nothing. i dont think heat from the lightbsaber is gonna mean much when access to he full item collection and materia. Personally i think it will be a case of cloud swings sword. obi blocks gets sent flying then gets blade beams finishing touched and omnislashed to death.

  57. Zazax May 17, 2015 at 12:29 pm -      #57

    So. Bullet-timing.
    www.youtube.com/watch?v=87tDO1_nofE
    Multiple instances over the entire fight. Hell, at 0:07 we see him actually outright dodge one, rather than block it. There is no ambiguity here. Cloud is clearly a bullet-timer.

    The downplay is strong with this one.

  58. Limbo Lowk May 17, 2015 at 12:44 pm -      #58

    youtu.be/MrCiQ5ona08
    @42 Obi Wan uses force crush offensively
    ===
     “That’s pretty damn low-tier considering Cloud can effortlessly cut through several tons worth of falling concrete and clears over a hundred meters with a single jump.”

    Which doesn’t really help if he is caught mid-air. Strength and jumping ability are generally useless when you are suspended. Which is what Kitten was using that feat for, not destructive capability.

  59. seradon May 17, 2015 at 12:55 pm -      #59

    “Strength and jumping ability are generally useless when you are suspended. Which is what Kitten was using that feat for, not destructive capability”
    And my point was that going just off that feat Obi-Wan wouldn’t have anywhere near enough telekinetic power to stop Cloud before he crashed into him like a Japanese truck going after some shounen MC’s lover.

  60. Nsl98 May 17, 2015 at 1:02 pm -      #60

    And my point was that going just off that feat Obi-Wan wouldn’t have anywhere near enough telekinetic power to stop Cloud before he crashed into him like a Japanese truck going after some shounen MC’s lover.

    So Cloud changes how much he weighs when he jumps?

    I highly doubt Cloud weighs 1 ton. Obi should have no problem flinging him around.

  61. Amm0vamp1r3 May 17, 2015 at 1:13 pm -      #61

    Aim blocking, that’s a new one. Never heard of aim blocking, aim dodging yeah but aim blocking? I thought it was just called blocking

  62. seradon May 17, 2015 at 1:20 pm -      #62

    “I highly doubt Cloud weighs 1 ton”
    This is silly. You don’t stop flying objects based solely on their weight but on the amount of energy they carry. A baseball going 100 mph is far easier to stop than a bullet despite the later being clearly heavier. Same shit is in effect over here; the amount of energy Cloud exerts on his swings and leaps is significantly greater than what Obi-Wan showed in that video, therefore old (young?) Ben would have a hard time of stopping Cloud in time if he came leaping at him full force.

    Of course, it would be a different matter altogether if Cloud was already stationary. In such a case Obi-Wan wouldn’t have any problems flinging him around as he pleased.

  63. Zazax May 17, 2015 at 1:27 pm -      #63

    Cloud actually has very… odd physics in the air. There are several occasions where he just hovers in place (for example, in the video I linked in post 57 he hovers in place for a solid 4 seconds; 1:15 to 1:19). There’s also a number of occasions where he parries a hit from someone in mid-air air that should send him flying backwards, but doesn’t.
    I attribute it to Rule of Cool, myself, but it’s still a thing.

    That aside, though, I still maintain that Kenobi can’t actually kill Cloud. And tossing Could around with the Force will only work a couple times before he breaks out one of his spells and ends the fight instantly anyways.

    And besides, in a similar fashion as Kitten Lord was so kind as to, even incorrectly, insist about Cloud, just ragdolling his opponent with the Force isn’t Obi-Wan’s MO, even when his opponent has no way of resisting it. See; Grievous.

  64. Limbo Lowk May 17, 2015 at 1:28 pm -      #64

    “And my point was that going just off that feat Obi-Wan wouldn’t have anywhere near enough telekinetic power to stop”

    One, why does he need to stop him? Last I checked Cloud doesn’t have much in the way of flight.
    Which brings me to two
    “I highly doubt Cloud weighs 1 ton. Obi should have no problem flinging him around.”
    Redirecting Cloud should be within Kenobi’s abilities.
    ===
    “Aim blocking, that’s a new one. Never heard of aim blocking, aim dodging yeah but aim blocking? I thought it was just called blocking”

    Technically wouldn’t any time a jedi blocks behind them using pre cog be considered aim blocking?

  65. Nsl98 May 17, 2015 at 1:31 pm -      #65

    See; Grievous.

    Actually, in that vid Kitten posted, the first thing Kenobi did once he got the edge he needed over Grievous was telekinetically throw him off the platform.

    Redirecting Cloud should be within Kenobi’s abilities

    ^ Exactly

  66. Kitten Lord May 17, 2015 at 1:33 pm -      #66

    @Wing

    “If you fire a machine gun at someone and their not bullet timers there is no way he will be able to block all the bullets in his way with a sword, if at all. You will get hit by at least some of them if not all. You have to be moving your arm at the same speed in order to even attempt to block a bullet (unless you have precog of course) otherwise you are bound to get hit.”

    Only your point is immediately shown wrong when concerning these shooters because they cannot even hit the man when hes standing still . Zack did not have to block them, since you can clearly see the majority were just flying past him even when he was not even actively defending.

    “I asked where the time was for this”

    2 minutes 19 seconds, they are shooting at him and he does not react until they start shooting at which point he just lookes surprised as bullets are flying all around him.

    “So yeah, you can’t aim-block. Aim dodge sure”

    Explain how you aim dodge, by aim dodging your moving your body out of the way of an opponents aim without having to react to the speed of the bullet. Aim blocking is the same, only your moving just your defensive weapon, in this case a sword. You do not have to be as fast as a bullet just to move your shield in front of the trajectory of the guns aim.

    “To catch him off gaurd. Why else?”

    Because their idiots who cannot shoot? Just like before where they cannot hit a immobile man?

    “So? He’s still dodging the bullets”

    If hes looking down and not at the bullets then he has no reactionary stimuli that we can note from the video meaning he did not react at all. he does not even seem to start moving until the bullets are already hitting the ground, wildly…

    @Saki

    ” i dont think heat from the lightbsaber is gonna mean much when access to he full item collection and materia. ”

    He has no prep at all so unless he can be proven to have heat healing items as a standard issue its irrelevant.

    ” i think it will be a case of cloud swings sword. obi blocks gets sent flying then gets blade beams finishing touched and omnislashed to death.”

    or Obi swats him with the force, crushing him flat against the ground. I doubt he could even move after that….

    How strong is cloud physically? I think the force is going to be too hax for Cloud to do anything against bh.

    @Zaz

    “Multiple instances over the entire fight. Hell, at 0:07 we see him actually outright dodge one, rather than block it. There is no ambiguity here. Cloud is clearly a bullet-timer.”

    Earlier in the scene where hes driving on the bike they are both fireing at him non stop, the end result is he loses his goggles, thats all they can hit over a long period even when he starts coming up on him.

    Bullet timing is not worth bringing up if the marksman cannot shoot. its impossible to tell how far off some of those shots are and we know the shooters are god awful so we know for fact their not necessarily on target half the time.

    Your acting like Yazoo has surprised him even though hes been fireing away for minutes…

    Also why are we arguing bullet timing again? You realize even if I let it pass Cloud is a bullet timer for the sake of argument, that means nothing when you cannot dodge the force nor can you dodge a light saber so close to you, its not a tiny piece of metal with a set trajectory. So saying Cloud can bullet time does not change the argument in any way and is in fact a strawman trying to take us away from the fact that Cloud can be thrown around by Obi who can close in while anime boy is helpless.

  67. Limbo Lowk May 17, 2015 at 1:34 pm -      #67

    “See; Grievous.”

    We all know Grievous was coated in PIS. Kenobi has straight up lifted and crushed droids.

  68. Nsl98 May 17, 2015 at 1:50 pm -      #68

    See; Grievous.

    Also, Grievous was fighting Obi-Wan, 4 lightsabers to 1, and doing stuff like this:
    Grievous, snarling with fury, ramped up the intensity and velocity of his attacks – sixteen per second, eighteen – until finally, at twenty strikes per second, he overloaded Obi-Wan’s defense.

    As I said before, the moment Obi got the advantage, he threw him off the platform with TK.

  69. seradon May 17, 2015 at 1:51 pm -      #69

    @Limbo
    _
    “Last I checked Cloud doesn’t have much in the way of flight.”
    Omnislash ver. 5/6 grants him limited flight. Considering it’s just one of his combat moves, he should be able to trigger that same flight if he needs to mid-battle. Besides, even if Obi-Wan moves out of the way he now has to deal with a swordsman both physically superior to him and stacked to hell and back with all sorts of magical abilities who did a spectacular job of closing distance.
    _
    “redirecting”
    Could work, but it’s not like Cloud has no means of retaliating if Obi-Wan tries it since he has access to his materia.
    _

    “Kenobi has straight up lifted and crushed droids”
    Crushing a non-living tin can isn’t quite the same as making chunky salsa out of some weird coughing cyborg.

  70. Amm0vamp1r3 May 17, 2015 at 1:51 pm -      #70

    “Technically wouldn’t any time a jedi blocks behind them using pre cog be considered aim blocking?”

    Idk I feel like that’s still blocking, I mean you know its coming so you put your blade/arm/shield or what have you in the way so you know blocking, like a boxer who knows a punch is coming because he sees the muscle tense up puts his arm up to block it. That’s not called aim blocking, its just blocking

    I think its just an argument of semantics

  71. Limbo Lowk May 17, 2015 at 2:01 pm -      #71

    “Crushing a non-living tin can isn’t quite the same as making chunky salsa out of some weird coughing cyborg.”

    Whose made up of droid parts. Also have you seen what he did to Druge?

  72. seradon May 17, 2015 at 2:16 pm -      #72

    “Whose made up of droid parts”
    Who is still alive. Point is, you never see Obi-Wan Force Crushing living beings like some deranged Sith. He will make mincemeat out of you with his lightsaber if he needs to, but he doesn’t go around acting like he’s high on the dark side.
    _

    “have you seen what he did to Druge?”
    A last resort he considered only at the very end of the fight after being devoured. Popping people like balloons has never been part of his MO.

  73. Kitten Lord May 17, 2015 at 2:20 pm -      #73

    Do not forget its obi wans goal in a BankGambling match to kill his opponent. his CIS does not stop him from using the force to smash, crush or throw Cloud about. Its not evil to defend yourself against someone coming down try to kill you.

    You know he does not have to crush Cloud into bits, he could knock him out with the force. Then move in for the kill.

  74. Zazax May 17, 2015 at 2:21 pm -      #74

    “Earlier in the scene where hes driving on the bike they are both fireing at him non stop, the end result is he loses his goggles, thats all they can hit over a long period even when he starts coming up on him.”
    So in other words you have no argument and are trying to derail the point entirely. Good to know.
    We straight up see him dodge a bullet. There is no argument.

    “Your acting like Yazoo has surprised him even though hes been fireing away for minutes…”
    No, I’m not. The point I’m trying to make is that Cloud is clearly able to move fast enough to dodge or deflect bullets. That’s the scope of the argument.

    “Also why are we arguing bullet timing again? You realize even if I let it pass Cloud is a bullet timer for the sake of argument, that means nothing when you cannot dodge the force nor can you dodge a light saber so close to you, its not a tiny piece of metal with a set trajectory. So saying Cloud can bullet time does not change the argument in any way and is in fact a strawman trying to take us away from the fact that Cloud can be thrown around by Obi who can close in while anime boy is helpless.”
    This *entire fight* so far is a strawman from your side, man. Cloud wins with one spell, and everything after that is formality to make the fight more interesting.

    As far as physical durability is concerned we have things like this:

    Taking all that force (that impact crater is up to Sephiroth’s waist, by the way) on just his arms (as we know for a fact he does since he doesn’t faceplant into his sword) is a pretty hefty strength/durability feat. Even more so since he does it without flinching.
    There’s also stuff like him effortlessly slicing through chunks of concrete bigger than he is with one hand, and the bit where Yazoo shoots him point blank in the face near the start with no injury, but those are somewhat less impressive regarding impact force.

    We’ve also not touched on a lot of Cloud’s other interesting abilities, even setting aside his “I win now” spells like Death, Break, Remove, Ultima, any of the Gravity spells, Confu, Sleepel, his high-tier summons, etc. Would Silence prevent Kenobi from using the Force? If not, Berserk probably would. How about something like Manipulate? That could be fun. Would Reflect work against the Force? If so, grab a Reflect Ring and he doesn’t even need to cast it on himself.
    What about some of the weirder materia? Something like Long Range might be a bit of a surprise. Something like Magic Counter (counter attacks with the linked materia) or Sneak Attack (use linked materia immediately upon battle start) would be funny, especially when paired with one of his ‘I Win’ spells.

    “Do not forget its obi wans goal in a BankGambling match to kill his opponent. his CIS does not stop him from using the force to smash, crush or throw Cloud about. Its not evil to defend yourself against someone coming down try to kill you.”
    Untrue. BankGambling only removes Batman-style ‘will not kill at all’ CIS. All other CIS still applies, including not wanting to use certain abilities. Characters are not bloodlusted. Hence the argument about Cloud’s MO earlier. Can’t have your cake and eat it too.

  75. seradon May 17, 2015 at 2:32 pm -      #75

    “his CIS does not stop him from using the force to smash, crush or throw Cloud about”
    CIS stands unless it would limit Obi-Wan from actually killing Cloud. Kenobi has no inherent limitations stopping him from killing Cloud, but he does have limitations in how he would go about doing it, and as I pointed out in regards to Durge those are generally last resort moves. He’s not gonna randomly mix Force Crush into his moveset just because he can do it, but he might pull it off if he’s on the ropes. Similarly, you can expect Cloud to fight with sword and magic, but it’s highly unlikely he would open up with Knights of Round or Ultima.
    _
    “You know he does not have to crush Cloud into bits, he could knock him out with the force. Then move in for the kill”
    A very valid point, though Cloud’s endurance might make that a bit difficult for the Jedi Master.

  76. wingedlion May 17, 2015 at 2:37 pm -      #76

    “Zack did not have to block them, since you can clearly see the majority were just flying past him even when he was not even actively defending.”

    Why does the other bullets that passed him matter? Even if those were not hitting him, the fact still remains that he did indeed block bullets. Thus he is a bullet timer. Their skills as a marksmen would only matter if Zack was trying to dodge those bullets, but he wasn’t. Him blocking the bullets shows he is fast enough to react to and deflect a bullet already in flight. That is exactly what bullet-timing is.

    “2 minutes 19 seconds, they are shooting at him and he does not react until they start shooting at which point he just lookes surprised as bullets are flying all around him.”

    Um, they were in front of him, not behind him. Immediately after we see his face we see them shooting at him in front of him.
    Regardless, it doesn’t matter. He still blocked the bullets, thus bullet timer.

    “Explain how you aim dodge, by aim dodging your moving your body out of the way of an opponents aim without having to react to the speed of the bullet.

    “Aim blocking is the same, only your moving just your defensive weapon, in this case a sword. You do not have to be as fast as a bullet just to move your shield in front of the trajectory of the guns aim.”

    It’s really not the same thing at all. In the first place, there’s a huge difference between using a shield and a sword to block bullets. You don’t have to use your reflexes and reactions to deflect each bullet coming at you when you use a shield, you simply can put it up and run forward. Shields are built for that, they cover a much wider area than a sword. Meanwhile, you have to deflect each bullet coming at you with your sword multiple times so that it doesn’t hit certain parts of your body. Just putting up a sword and rushing at your enemies with it like a shield will not work because a shield is much wider than a sword. You will get hit. And considering Zack is not doing that and is explicitly deflecting bullets repeatedly in rapid action, unlike rushing in as if the sword was a shield, it’s obvious that he is a bullet timer, as he would need to be able to react to a bullet as it comes to him to deflect it in the first place.

    “Because their idiots who cannot shoot?”

    I don’t see how that means they cannot shoot. Nor do i see it’s relevance. All of their fire was concentrated on that exact spot. The only way someone who couldn’t bullet time would be able to survive that is if he knew before hand where they were about to shoot and then got out of that specific spot accordingly. Despite that Zack was still able to dodge the bullets, without any warning, without moving anywhere else but staying at that exact spot. That is clear bullet-dodging.

  77. Kitten Lord May 17, 2015 at 2:44 pm -      #77

    @Zazax

    “We straight up see him dodge a bullet.”

    Or dodge the aim of the guy so blatantly firing at him without any skill.

    “Cloud wins with one spell, and everything after that is formality to make the fight more interesting.”

    Yeah cool story bro, now just waiting for you to prove thats how Cloud starts his fights…

    “Taking all that force (that impact crater is up to Sephiroth’s waist, by the way) on just his arms (as we know for a fact he does since he doesn’t faceplant into his sword) is a pretty hefty strength/durability feat. Even more so since he does it without flinching.
    There’s also stuff like him effortlessly slicing through chunks of concrete bigger than he is with one hand, and the bit where Yazoo shoots him point blank in the face near the start with no injury, but those are somewhat less impressive regarding impact force.”

    He uses his sword so thats not a base durability feat for him taking anything. He breaks through a pipe….big whoop…

    “We’ve also not touched on a lot of Cloud’s other interesting abilities,”

    Its because we have no proof on what, how and when Cloud uses these and we know most of them are useless because it requires him to at the very least gesture OR channel depending on the skill, which takes too long when Obi just has to wave his hand, and when I say wave I do not mean a 1 second glow/cast time like advent children, I mean literally a gesture.

    ” Hence the argument about Cloud’s MO earlier. Can’t have your cake and eat it too.”

    Only unfortunately for you Cloud using specific spells has not been proven, meanwhile we have actual feats of Obi using the force to attack his enemies.

    Please stop trying to backseat “fight” from Clouds corner, hes fighting this himself so stop bringing up your speculation on what materia he may or may not be carrying and/or what you would do in-game.

    @Seradon

    “A very valid point, though Cloud’s endurance might make that a bit difficult for the Jedi Master.”

    I have yet to see Cloud tank multi ton crushing, droid smashing force straight to the force or neck or w/e. He uses his sword constantly to defend in every way he can, suggesting he needs it to survive.

    @Wing

    “Regardless, it doesn’t matter. He still blocked the bullets, thus bullet timer.”

    Your not a bullet timer just because a bullet hit your sword though. As i have covered, the men fireing cannot shoot and hit a stationary, non defending target, who knows how many of those shots are even remotely close to ever hitting Zak whether he moves or not.

    “You don’t have to use your reflexes and reactions to deflect each bullet coming at you when you use a shield, ”

    When your using large swords and your shooters are useless you do not have to be nearly as skilled as your claiming.

  78. wingedlion May 17, 2015 at 2:54 pm -      #78

    “Your not a bullet timer just because a bullet hit your sword though.”

    When your moving the sword to deflect the bullets? Yes you are.
    Your treating the sword as if it can be used as a shield in this situation, when it can’t. He has to have the reactions to deflect each bullet.

    “As i have covered, the men fireing cannot shoot and hit a stationary, non defending target, who knows how many of those shots are even remotely close to ever hitting Zak whether he moves or not.”

    We know for a fact that some bullets were going to hit him, since he deflected them.

  79. seradon May 17, 2015 at 3:04 pm -      #79

    “He uses his sword constantly to defend in every way he can, suggesting he needs it to survive”
    Why the hell would he willingly take a hit? Cloud regularly blocks attacks that don’t deal much damage to him (like the flimsy bullets he’s earlier shown to be quite capable of tanking) merely because he isn’t some overconfident showoff. Jedi do it all the time despite the fact there’s more than a fair number of force techniques capable of letting them handle blaster fire without the use of a lightsaber.
    _
    “I have yet to see Cloud tank multi ton crushing”
    You must have missed the part where Sephiroth runs him through like a pincushion and and smacks him into one of the nearby buildings. He gets up with minimal effort despite the multiple stab wounds from Masamune and is no worse for wear afterwards.

  80. Kitten Lord May 17, 2015 at 3:05 pm -      #80

    @Wing

    “When your moving the sword to deflect the bullets? ”

    This is your assertion, not fact. Meanwhile its a fact those men are awful shots and therefore any bullets you argue “may” have hit him, may also not have hit him.

    “Your treating the sword as if it can be used as a shield in this situation”

    Its a relatively large sword, its hardly a rapier. Its at least 4 1/2 to 5ft long and damn thick. With shooting as bad as theirs their more likely ot hit that than they are Zak.

    Theres also the fact none of them have an issue following him despite their poor shooting, like when hes leaping over them. And in the other video they go into close combat and have no issue following him, even if they do not land successful hits.

    I see not how this will affect this fight at all.

    @Seradin

    “ou must have missed the part where Sephiroth runs him through like a pincushion and and smacks him into one of the nearby buildings. He gets up with minimal effort despite the multiple stab wounds from Masamune and is no worse for wear afterwards.”

    Explain how him actually being pierced proves his great endurance? A few paper cuts and hes on the ground exhausted, getting a pep talk from ghosts….

    Also I could have sworn the jedi have a technique where they stop someone breathing ,must have read that somewhere.

    How much can cloud physically lift?

  81. Zazax May 17, 2015 at 3:14 pm -      #81

    “Or dodge the aim of the guy so blatantly firing at him without any skill.”
    Watch the clip again. He doesn’t actually move until the bullet is fired. That’s the opposite of aim-dodging.

    “Yeah cool story bro, now just waiting for you to prove thats how Cloud starts his fights…”
    He’s a video game character. He fights as the player dictates. Which means he has no inherent CIS whatsoever regarding what he will and will not use.
    Now, directly from the site rules:
    “Further, many combatants, as is the case of characters from video games for example, are known to wield a great array of powers and equipment that may be considered to be PIS. See rule number “1” for the channels to follow for a determination to be made for what elements should or shouldn’t be involved, and rule number “8” for details pertaining elements that may fall into the PIS category.”
    Rule 1 is about battle incarnations. Current Cloud has his stuff, so that’s no issue. Rule 8 is about PIS, which is what you’re talking about. However, what do you know, PIS is ignored in FP matches.
    Of course, the end result of this is that Cloud, ignoring PIS and not having any CIS about this in the first place, can use whatever he wants, whenever he wants, as is optimal for his situation.
    So stuff it.

    “He uses his sword so thats not a base durability feat for him taking anything.”
    Lern 2 physics. All the force he takes on his sword is transferred into him. He doesn’t smash his face into his sword, so the only possible explanation is that he withstood all that force all at once with just his arms. That’s both an incredible strength feat, and a hefty durability feat.

    “Its because we have no proof on what, how and when Cloud uses these”
    Irrelevant. See above.

    “and we know most of them are useless because it requires him to at the very least gesture OR channel depending on the skill”
    There’s no skill involved. And you seem to be forgetting that materia casts in less than a second (remember that link I posted that everyone ignored?). And with Quad Magic and W-Magic he can cast 8 spells at once (well, 2 spells 4 times each, or the same spell 8 times. Not 8 different spells). Unless Kenobi kills Cloud literally the instant the match starts, which he doesn’t because he actually does have CIS, Cloud wins.

    “which takes too long when Obi just has to wave his hand, and when I say wave I do not mean a 1 second glow/cast time like advent children, I mean literally a gesture.”
    It’s the same for Cloud. Watch the damn clip. It’s in post 20.
    And, again, Obi-Wan occasionally pushes someone back once in a while, which isn’t enough here. As far as I’m aware he’s never ragdolled someone around a room leaving them utterly helpless.

    “Only unfortunately for you Cloud using specific spells has not been proven”
    For something that, according to the rules, means literally nothing you sure seem hung up on this.

    “Please stop trying to backseat “fight” from Clouds corner, hes fighting this himself so stop bringing up your speculation on what materia he may or may not be carrying and/or what you would do in-game.”
    He has all his stuff as per current incarnation rules, and he’s kitted out optimally with the stuff he has within that rule, also as per the rules.
    to wit:
    “Combatants will be ported into battle with their standard power-set and equipment associated with their used incarnations for the combatant to take part of the battle at maximum efficiency.”
    Current incarnation has all this stuff. Cloud has no ‘standard’ equipment as far as materia are concerned (sword, perhaps, but not materia). Therefore he gets sent to the battlefield with the materia necessary for him to fight at optimum capacity. What I’m suggesting is optimum capacity.

    “He uses his sword constantly to defend in every way he can, suggesting he needs it to survive.”
    That’s one hell of an exaggeration you’ve got there. Give us a single example of Cloud doing this ‘constantly’ when he has access to his current stuff. Just a single one.
    After all, you’re making the positive claim. Burden of proof is on you here.

  82. wingedlion May 17, 2015 at 3:18 pm -      #82

    “This is your assertion, not fact.”

    What? Did you look at the video? He was deflecting the bullets, that’s not an assertion.

    “any bullets you argue “may” have hit him, may also not have hit him.”

    Well, no. The very fact that they were in this way and he was able to deflect them means that they would have hit him had he not deflected them.

    “Its a relatively large sword, its hardly a rapier. Its at least 4 1/2 to 5ft long and damn thick. With shooting as bad as theirs their more likely ot hit that than they are Zak.”

    img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130519075345/finalfantasy/images/d/dd/SOLDIER_Sword.png

    That sword is nowhere near large enough to be used as a shield for the bullets. Not to mention that unlike a shield, he was deflecting the bullets individually, meaning he wasn’t using as a shield, but was actually bullet-timing.

  83. seradon May 17, 2015 at 3:19 pm -      #83

    “Explain how him actually being pierced proves his great endurance?”
    I was referring to the part where he forms a small crater in the reinforced steel plates of the building he’s thrown to. You know, from the mutli-tonner who just wrecked his shit and is flying around in the air all smug? He suffers more difficulty getting up from exhaustion than the wounds he just suffered and has no problems continuing the fight after getting a second wind.
    _
    “jedi have a technique where they stop someone breathing, must have read that somewhere ”
    You clearly read wrong since that’s a Sith move, and isn’t a part of Obi-Wan’s moveset. Now, if this was Anakin, Revan, or virtually anyone from Luke’s New Jedi Order, etc, you might have a point.

  84. wingedlion May 17, 2015 at 3:25 pm -      #84

    “in this way”

    in his way, sorry.

  85. Zazax May 17, 2015 at 3:32 pm -      #85

    ““jedi have a technique where they stop someone breathing, must have read that somewhere ””
    I could be really silly and point out the 20 minute timer when fighting Emerald Weapon (which takes place entirely underwater), and how equipping the ‘Underwater’ materia removes it by letting you breathe underwater. Which of course implies that Cloud, the supersoldier that he is, can hold his breath for 20 minutes, Guybrush Threepwood style.
    =P

  86. seradon May 17, 2015 at 3:37 pm -      #86

    @Zazax
    _
    “I could be really silly and point out the 20 minute timer when fighting Emerald Weapon (which takes place entirely underwater)”
    You really shouldn’t. There is only so much suspension of disbelief a person handle, and Cloud effortlessly dashing over the ground at the bottom of the ocean for 20 minutes is definitely pushing it.

  87. Kitten Lord May 17, 2015 at 3:40 pm -      #87

    @Zaz

    “That’s the opposite of aim-dodging.”

    Its called prediction, the guy was firing at him through the fight, hardly a surprise that he fies again.

    “He fights as the player dictates”

    Well its a damn shame no player is here, so we go with what the character is proven to do…which so far is to fight with his sword..

    ” can use whatever he wants”

    Take note of this and read it carefully, WHAT CLOUD WANTS NOT WHAT YOU WANT

    “Lern 2 physics. All the force he takes on his sword is transferred into him”

    Theres a reason why you would use a sword, shield or w/e to block an incoming blow, to reduce the force actually hitting you. It has to pass through clouds sword, which a big huge thing to get to him, by nature of its size its going to be taking a lot of the pressure since its so flat….like a shield.

    Also breaking a pipe is as I said, not impressive….

    “Unless Kenobi kills Cloud literally the instant the match starts, which he doesn’t because he actually does have CIS, Cloud wins.”

    For Cloud to get off any magic, assuming he even starts with it. which again not proven. He would have to hope Kenobi just sits there letting him do it because Kenobi only has to gesture to stop him by throwing him face first into the ground…

    “Watch the damn clip. It’s in post 20.”

    I did, it shows someone who is not Cloud casting with a 1 second or so channel some sparklers. Now lets see summons and the “death” spell?

    “Cloud has no ‘standard’ equipment as far as materia are concerned (sword, perhaps, but not materia).”

    Then he just has his sword. You cant give characters stuff that is not standard. The rule is talking about standard equipment.

    “Give us a single example of Cloud doing this ‘constantly’ ”

    Like all the scenes youve posted of Cloud, him swinging his sword to block shots fired, swords coming at him. I have yet to see him just tank a blow, and when he is his from Sephiroth he gets stabbed through…

    @Wing

    ” Did you look at the video?”

    Yep, and my interpretation differs from yours, that his huge, thick ass sword took some blows as he swung it in front of himself.

    @Sera

    “I was referring to the part where he forms a small crater in the reinforced steel plates”

    Can you give me the video and timings again for this specific scene? Ill review it again.

    “You clearly read wrong since that’s a Sith move, and isn’t a part of Obi-Wan’s moveset. Now, if this was Anakin, Revan, or virtually anyone from Luke’s New Jedi Order, etc, you might have a point.”

    Fair enough, although I am sure the more star wars savvy can bring up more interesting force powers that Jedi use than just throwing people. Which so far until I see more evidence of Cloud being able to “out endure” Obi just beating him against the wall. I mean the force in the case of Obi is oftne used effortlessly, so heavens no how many droid/multi ton crushing smacks to the head Cloud is going ot have to endure….

  88. wingedlion May 17, 2015 at 3:52 pm -      #88

    @Kitten
    “Yep, and my interpretation differs from yours, that his huge, thick ass sword took some blows as he swung it in front of himself.”

    Except he doesn’t have a big ass sword.
    I showed you the picture. That sword is normal size at best. No way is he using it the same way someone would use a shield to block bullets.

  89. seradon May 17, 2015 at 3:57 pm -      #89

    “Can you give me the video and timings again for this specific scene? Ill review it again”

    youtu.be/eBNj1jqy00I?t=384

    He starts getting beat up, and then Sephiroth flings him down. Few seconds later he’s already back up though tired, and he fully recovers after having a chat with Zack (which also gives us a better look at how the steel plates caved from Cloud crashing into them).
    _
    “although I am sure the more star wars savvy can bring up more interesting force powers that Jedi use than just throwing people”
    The problem with Jedi is that they rarely rely on more offensive powers since many of them tend to channel the dark side or are close to dark side abilities. Jedi actually have some pretty impressive skills though like Wall of Light (which at a low setting is pretty much an auto win against Sith/Dark Jedi, and at full power was responsible for Yavin IV’s sorry state) or Electric Judgment (essentially Jedi Force Lightning), but only very few Jedi master those skills. Kenobi himself is adept in more defensive Force abilities such as force Absorb and Force Deflect, but his strongest moves are likely the mind trick skills.

  90. Kitten Lord May 17, 2015 at 3:59 pm -      #90

    @Wing

    “Except he doesn’t have a big ass sword.
    I showed you the picture. That sword is normal size at best. No way is he using it the same way someone would use a shield to block bullets.”

    Its at least 5 inches across and 5-6ft long, swinging that in front of you, its bound to take some blows. I am not saying its a buster sword but its still pretty big.

    If you can convince the others Cloud is much faster than Zack and both can easily dodge bullets fair enough but I doubt your going to convince me with this line of reasoning.

    The shooters are too poor. Even if it was pure bullet timing its the weakest sort when the shooters are so innacurate and just hoping for the best.

    It would not achieve anything against Obi wann either.

  91. Nsl98 May 17, 2015 at 4:04 pm -      #91

    Kenobi’s fight with Durge:
    m.youtube.com/watch?v=D6LeL3s4Q80

    0:50- Tanking a blow from him
    1:30-1:37: Tanks a series of punches from Durge, who effortlessly tosses around Clones and Speeder Bikes
    1:38-2:00 Deflects a volley of tiny bullet things with a wave of his hand, crushes a flamethrower from a distance, and summons his saber and cuts down a chain before it hits him

  92. wingedlion May 17, 2015 at 4:13 pm -      #92

    “Its at least 5 inches across and 5-6ft long, swinging that in front of you, its bound to take some blows.”

    The Buster Sword is around 5-6 feet long. This is smaller.

    “The shooters are too poor. Even if it was pure bullet timing its the weakest sort when the shooters are so innacurate and just hoping for the best.”

    The shooter’s skill with it is irrelevant. It doesn’t change the fact that he can block and deflect multiple bullets, which he did. The skill of the shooter has nothing to do with that.
    Once again, maybe if he was trying to dodge the bullets, you would have a point. But there is no way any non bullet timer can block bullets unless they have pre-cog.

    “It would not achieve anything against Obi wann either.”

    It shows that at least in terms of reactions and reflexes Obi-Wan is far outclassed compared to Cloud.

  93. Limbo Lowk May 17, 2015 at 4:59 pm -      #93

    “Fair enough, although I am sure the more star wars savvy can bring up more interesting force powers that Jedi use than just throwing people.”

    Force choke is something the darker or nuetraul force user moves. As far as offensive goes the meanest way I seen him use his powers is force crush and splattering Durge with a aoe repulse. If he holds people up it won’t be through force choking.
    However I recall something about him messing with the inner workings of something so he probably be able to mess up Cloud’s connecto-swords and make it fall apart. If you can’t kill’em you can at least embarrass.
    ===
    Grievous, snarling with fury, ramped up the intensity and velocity of his attacks – sixteen per second, eighteen – until finally, at twenty strikes per second, he overloaded Obi-Wan’s defense.

    So that is 1 strike every 55(52 it you take into account the 19) milliseconds. So in the time it takes you to blink(300 milliseconds) Kenobi is fast enough to block and grievous is able to dish out 5 attack. Oh EU, you so crazy.

  94. Limbo Lowk May 17, 2015 at 5:09 pm -      #94

    Oh yeah, I forgot mind trick. Cloud got an mental resistance?

  95. Kitten Lord May 17, 2015 at 5:27 pm -      #95

    @Wing

    “It shows that at least in terms of reactions and reflexes Obi-Wan is far outclassed compared to Cloud.”

    Obi has precog, so his reactions are likely to always be a step ahead of anything Cloud can bring to bare. And reactions and reflexes mean little when your opponent is hitting you with “force” that you cannot “dodge”.

    @Lowk

    “Oh yeah, I forgot mind trick. Cloud got an mental resistance?”

    Yes I was reading this on wookiepedia a moment ago.

  96. Limbo Lowk May 17, 2015 at 5:30 pm -      #96

    Sorry for the triple post, playing a little catch up now that I’m back at my computer.
    ===
    “Besides, even if Obi-Wan moves out of the way he now has to deal with a swordsman both physically superior to him and stacked to hell and back with all sorts of magical abilities who did a spectacular job of closing distance.”

    I meant he wouldn’t be able to get close becasue Cloud isn’t that heavy so he could tk him from even getting close. Hell Clouds sword is tk able and Kenobi is one of those types to use that against him.
    ===
    “Who is still alive.”

    Barely most of him is machine including legs and arms. Like I said G is coated in PIS. Kenobi tends to fight smart, he has gone for fleshy creature legs before. It’s not like Grievous is immune to the force.
    youtu.be/GJ4XMzBjc7o?t=1m24s
    It just like every time a jedi goes up against him they forget that hey, This guys who is insanely better at dueling has nothing in the way of stopping me from flinging him around with my mind.”

  97. Limbo Lowk May 17, 2015 at 5:40 pm -      #97

    There are probably better scenes of mind tricks but I like this one the most

  98. Kitten Lord May 17, 2015 at 5:50 pm -      #98

    @Sera

    “He starts getting beat up, and then Sephiroth flings him down. Few seconds later he’s already back up though tired, and he fully recovers after having a chat with Zack (which also gives us a better look at how the steel plates caved from Cloud crashing into them).”

    I did a calc for you using this;

    calculator.tutorvista.com/impact-force-calculator.html

    And watching your video at 0.25 time found he was flung at roughly 6:35 and hit the ground at 6:38. As a high ball estimate he fell 100 meters, its not quite that but it hardly matters, he had a velocity of 33 m/s, with of a mass of say 60kg which is his body weight and a contact on impact of 1 second he was dealt about 4000 newtons of force.

    About as hard as a good boxer punching him, but not an amazing feat to put against a guy who can hit you with the TK obi can.

    “Kenobi himself is adept in more defensive Force abilities such as force Absorb and Force Deflect, but his strongest moves are likely the mind trick skills.”

    Aye, combined with his regular force pushes and pulls, absorbs, and mind trick I think he has this in the bag.

  99. Limbo Lowk May 17, 2015 at 7:30 pm -      #99

    Kenobi can jump pretty far so that should even out the mobility thing
    static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/124590/3957073-a9rn8.gif
    ===
    Here is the crushing thing in case someone couldn’t see the video
    static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/124590/3957060-a9rhr.gif
    ===
    Moving a ship and crushing droids underneath it
    static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11117/111177019/4074376-lol.jpg
    static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11117/111177019/4074377-lol1.jpg

  100. seradon May 17, 2015 at 7:59 pm -      #100

    “he was dealt about 4000 newtons of force”
    The amount of force needed to bend the steel plate he fell into makes that calculation impossible by itself. A plate that large would require a significant number of tons in order to bend, even if it was only an inch thick.

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