Vampires Vs Mages

Vampires Vs Mages

Suggested by Lowk

Kain (Legacy of Kain), Dracula (Castlevania: Lords of Shadow), Lestat (The Vampire Chronicles), Dragonborn (Elder Scrolls)

Vs

Gwen Tennyson (Ben 10), Pandora (DC), Szass Tam (The Forgotten Realms), Molly (Dresden files)

Gwen has her spell book.

Dragonborn is Vampire Lord.

Starts out during sunset.

Which team will win?

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125 Comments on "Vampires Vs Mages"

  1. Amm0vamp1r3 April 16, 2015 at 12:04 am -      #1

    Vampires

  2. Numinous One April 16, 2015 at 12:56 am -      #2

    Gonna side with mages here, purely because of Tam and all the nonsense involved with archmages in DnD.

  3. Limbo Lowk April 16, 2015 at 1:35 am -      #3

    And Here I was worried about not submitting pictures.
    Note to self, admin and/or Rookie find better pictures then me.
    ===
    Just got caught up on N52 Phantom stranger. He might have done better then Pandora. Oh well, maybe I can make that a solo match.
    ===
    “Vampires”
    -Amm0vamp1r3

    lol.
    I should’ve kept the warlock in my name.
    ===
    Anyway quick summery of 3/4 of the mage side
    Pandora: can call on all manner of weapon(from guns to blade to explosives) all enhanced so they can do damage things like Spectre. Learned how to harm incorporeal being. Can teleport, phase through things, create illusions and mask her presence. Has wolverine like healing factor factor.
    Gwen: Can control elements, absorb magic, cut people of from their source of magic, pretty durable, can create energy constructs, can sense others.
    Molly: Illusionist both mental and physical. Sort of like the magical equivalent to a Emma Frost. For all those not hip to X-men, she’s a telepath. She can make things invisible, mess with you head, put you to sleep, create holograms, and now thanks to the power of winter she should also be good at slinging a good bit of fire or ice around.

  4. Commander Cross April 16, 2015 at 1:48 am -      #4

    @Limbo Lowk at #03

    I’m more worried on if either the Head-of-Site or Rookie will ever post that Knights of the Round Table Free-for-all I suggested all those weeks back. T_T

    I dread for Molly’s life/existence, despite the fact she’s an Un-killable/Nigh-Un-killable being by now in here, Post-Cold Days onward.
    Pray to The Divine she will pull out all the stops and beyond for a fight like this, nothing less than that will work.

    Me not knowing how well Szass Tam stacks up next to Elminster doesn’t help matters either, I know Szass Tam is bloody powerful in his own right but AFAIR, one of the Vamps on Side A can casually move across entire continents when he goes all-out.

    Don’t hazard Kain absorbing any of your blood Side B, if you don’t got a lot of Aces up your sleeves then Time won’t be your friend no matter how well you’d hold against the Soul Reaver blade.

  5. itisburgers April 16, 2015 at 3:08 am -      #5

    Molly is unquantifiable we haven’t seen anything from her since becoming a faerie.

    Is tam capable of casting wish?

    Does dragon borne have any other skills or just suck tastic vampire form.

  6. Limbo Lowk April 16, 2015 at 3:58 am -      #6

    “Molly is unquantifiable we haven’t seen anything from her since becoming a faerie.”

    She was in the last book where she did the thing.

  7. Limbo Lowk April 16, 2015 at 4:09 am -      #7

    “Does dragon borne have any other skills or just suck tastic vampire form.”

    The Dragon Shouts.

  8. Rookie April 16, 2015 at 4:25 am -      #8

    “The Unmaking will never happen now,” Szass Tam said. Aoth risked a glance skyward and saw that, in fact, the chruning vileness was gone. “We’re all tired, in some cases wounded, our magic largely exhausted. And perhaps we’ve had our fill of revenge, killing the man who, at one time or another, betrayed each and every one of us. So I propose we go our separate ways. I promise you and your legions safe passage out of Thay”

    Bareris took hold of the sword he’d dropped when Malark had struck him, and clambered to his feet. He stood partly bent at the waist as though still in pain. But his voice was steady as he said, “Never in this world or any other.”

    “I’m inclined to concur,” said Lauzoril, still at the center of his cloud of little darting knives. “You wouldn’t suggest such a thing if you didn’t recognize that we have you at a profound disadvantage.”

    “Don’t be so sure,” the necromancer replied. “In particular, don’t be certain that it’s all of you against the one of me.” he shifted his gaze to Aoth.

    Aoth took a breath. “Actually, it is.”

    “Even though your sellsword band and the friends who help you lead it are on the brink of destruction? I’d gladly order So-Kehur to break off the attack.”

    Aoth couldn’t fathom how Szass Tam even knew about the battle by the Lapendrar, let alone that the invaders were in trouble, but his instincts told him the lich had spoken the truth. Still, he answered, “I trust the Brotherhood to pull through somehow. I mean to stick by the friends who need me here.”

    “You won’t be doing them a favor. Have you forgotten they’re undead, and I’m the world’s preeminent necromancer? If obliged to fight, the first thing I’ll do is turn them into my puppets and force them to kill you.”

    Bareris straightened up somewhat and smiled wolfishly. “Try.”

    “Yes,” said Mirror, “do. I may perish in this place. A warrior runs that risk in any battle. But I have faith it won’t be as your slave.”

    Szass Tam kept his eyes on Aoth. “Rancor is clouding their judgment,” the necromancer said. “Don’t let it cloud yours. Remember that your employers plan to kill you.”

    Aoth paused to give the zulkirs a chance to respond to the charge. None did, at least not in the moment he allowed them. It was sufficient time for an honest denial, just not enough to compose a convincing lie.

    “I’ll deal with that when the time comes,” said Aoth. “You tried to murder the whole world. You have to answer for it.”

    Szass Tam sighed. “Do I? Well, if you all feel–”

    Aoth abruptly saw that the undead wizard was making mystic gestures with his let hand. “Watch out!!” he shouted.

    Szass Tam flung out his arm, and a mass of shadow exploded into being, with vague demented faces appearing and dissivling in the murk. Growing longer and taller as it traveled, it hurtled at his foes.

    Those who’d charged Malark were closest to the effect, and it was rushing at them so fast that even as Aoth leveled his spear, he felt a sick certainty that it would hit before he could cast a spell. But Mirror drew another burst of radiance from his sword, Lallara spat a word of forbiddance, and the wave shattered into nothingness as though it had smashed itself against an invisible mass of rock.

    Meanwhile, Lauzoril hurled a dagger at a target too distant and high above the ground for even an expert knife thrower to hit. Except that the blade flew like an arrow, not a dagger, and turned to crimson light an instant before piercing the lich’s body. “Fall,” Lauzoril said. And Szass Tam plummeted to earth.

    —–

    Szass Tam smashed down on the mountaintop, then immediately tried to rise. Bareris shouted, Aoth hurled a crackling lightning bolt from the point of his spear, and Mirror drew a pulse of searing lifht from his sword. One of the zulkirs caught the lich in a booming blast of flame, and another–Samas Kul, presumably, although Bareris would have had to look around to be certain–turned the ground under him into sucking liquid tar.

    Assailed by so much magic all at the same instant, Szass Tam nearly vanished in the flash. When it faded, his robes were charred and shredded, and so was his flesh, portions stripped entirely to reveal the bone beneath.

    Yet he still moved as though his muscles and organs had merely been a mask whos eloss failed to hinder him in the slightest. He planted the bot of his shadowy staff on top of the tar, heaved his feet up out of the sticky mass just as if his prop were made of solid matter, then turned the ground to rocky earth again. He pulled off a scrap of loose, blackened flesh dangling over his left eye and raised his staff above his head.

    He surely meant to conjure with the staff, but a hyena-headed demon twice as tall as a man charged him and struck down at him with a greataxe, and he had to use the implement to parry. A floating thing like the shadow of a jellyfish followed just behind the brute with the axe, and then several other creatures, all of them equally grotesque, appeared. Plainly, Nevron had no intention of allowing Szass Tam to cast spells without interference.

    And Bareris couldn’t bear to let the familiars tear at the lich while he stood back. He sprinted toward the knot of struggling figures, and Mirror bounded after him. Aoth cursed as though he thought the two of them were doing something stupid, and maybe they were. But it was impossible to care.

    Moments later, something rustled over Bareris’s head. He glanced up and saw Aoth and Jet flying toward Szass Tam and the demons. The warmage evidently hoped height would give him a clear shot at their foe.

    Bareris and Mirror dashed up to the circle of roaring, flailing demons. The ghost’s lack of solid form allowed him to slip through the press without so much as a pause. But Bareris had to halt mere strides away from the action.

    He shivered with the mad urge to cut down one of the demons just to clear a path. Then the hyena-headed giant reeled backward. Its eyes were on fire, and snakes ahd grown out of its chest and were biting it repeatedly. Its huge axe floated in the air, hacking at the opponents who tried to come at Szass Tam from behind.

    Bareris lunged into the space the blinded demon had vacated. Singing a song of hate, he cut at Szass Tam’s chest.

    The blow glanced off. Szass Tam thrust his staff at his new attacker. Darkness stabbed from his eyes into Bareris’s head. For a moment, Bareris couldn’t see or think. But he still felt the exaltation of his rage, and when it ebbed, his battle anthem brought it surging back, and it broke the grip of confusion.

    He cut again, and again failed to pierce Szass Tam’s armoring enchantments. The necromancer whispered words of power, and some of the demons pivoted to attack their fellows. He waved his hand. a ruby ring on a withered finger flashed, and a dozen wounds split the hulking body of a furry, gray-black, bat-winged creature as though invisible blades ahd hacked it from the inside. A flourish of the shadow staff made darkness seethe and divide into manlike silhouettes.

    Bareris felt a sudden pang of fear that, though it scarcely seemed possible, he and all his formidable allies were going to lose. Then Mirror lunged and plunged his inbustantial sword through Szass Tam’s body.

    At first Szass Tam scarcely seemed to feel the violation. Then both the blade and Mirror himself flared, bright as the sun, and the lich cried out.

    Bareris had seen his comrade channel the power of his god before, but never so much of it, because it was dangerous. No matter how worthy a champion Mirror might be, no matter how faithfully he adhered to his ancient code of chivalry, the divine light was inherently antithetical to his undead condition. And equally poisonous to Bareris. the radiance burned him even though he wasn’t the target. It might do worse if he dared step any closer.

    But he didn’t care about that, either. All that mattered was that Szass Tam stood transfixed and vulnerable. Singing, he hurled himself at the lich.

    The light was agony, but the pain didn’t balk him. Rather, it seemed to feed his fury. He cut and cut, and the strokes plunged deep into Szass Tam’s body, cleaving what remained of his flesh and splintering bone.

    Until the radience died. Bareris looked and saw that Mirror had simply disappeared, like a flame that burned out.

    Bareris felt a pang of grief. Then skeletal fingers grabbed him by the neck.

    “He’s gone to his god,” Szass Tam croaked. “You go to your woman.”

    The lich’s fingers simultaneously cut and pulled. Bareris felt tearing pain, a nauseating whirl of vertigo as his head tumbled free of his body, and then nothing more.

    —-

    For a heartbeat or two, Aoth clung to hope. After all, he’d more than once seen Mirror wither to the verge of nonexistence only to reappear. And after becoming undead, Tammith had twice survived decapitation.

    But this time the ghost had vanished so utterly that not even spellscarred eyes could spot a trace of him, and dark wet patches cut through the bone white flesh of Bareris’s severed head and body as ninety years’ worth of deferred corruption flowered in an instant.

    Anguished, Aoth realized that at least his friend’s deaths freed him to hurl his most potent spells at Szass Tam without fear of hitting them as well. He didn’t care about Nevron’s remaining demons, because they no longer posed a threat to the lich. I twas all they could do to fight the fiends that had fallen under Szass Tam’s control and the phantoms he’d shaped from the fabric of the night.

    Aoth aimed his spear and rained gouts of fire down on the necromancer’s head. The zulkirs hurled flares of their own power.

    The magic tore the demons apart and seared the shadows from existence. It reduced Szass Tam to little more than a blackened skeleton, but a skeleton who kept his balance at the heart of the blast.

    His rings, amulets, and other talismans glowing with crimson light, Szass Tam turned his empty orbits on Samas Kul. The lich brandished his shadow staff, and a huge pair of fanged jaws appeared in the air in front of his former ally. The apparition shot forward, caught Samas in its jagged teeth, and chewed him to bloody pieces, all so quickly that fat transmuter only had time for a single, truncated squeal.

    Aoth conjured a flying sword to hurtle down at Szass tam, who somehow sensed it coming, parried it with his staff, and dissolved it without even bothering to glance upward. An instant later, another fiery blast cast by one of the zulkiers rocked the lich. It tore away some of his ribs, but that didn’t seem to trouble him, either.

    He stared at Lauzoril. “You fall,” he said, the words clear even though his lips had burned away. “All the way to the bottom.”

    Lauzoril’s face twisted, and he shuddered. Then he turned, ran, and hurled himself over the edge of the cliff.

    Nevron finished snarling an incantation. A goristro, a demon somewhat resembling a colossal minotaur, appeared in front of him. running on its hind feet and the knuckles of its hands, it instantly charged Szass Tam.

    The lich pointed his staff and spoke a word of power. the demon turned to glass, and off balance, toppled. It shattered with a prodigious crash.

    Nevron started another incantation. Szass Tam turned his fleshless hand palm up and made a clutching gesture. The demon master fell, and a second Nevron, made of insubstantial phosphorescence, appeared standing over the body. For once, he didn’t look angry of contemptuous but astonished.

    Szass Tam recited rhyming words, and Nevron’s ghost shrank into a pudgy creature only half as tall, with grubs wriggling in its open sores. Aoth just had time to recognize it as a mane, the weakest and lowliest form of demon, slave to every other. Then it vanished, probably to the Abyss.

    Lallara whispered and a wall of rainbows shimmered into being between Szass Tam and herself. “On further consideration,” she panted, I do wish to take advantage of the truce you offered.”

    Szass Tam laughed. “Sorry, Your Omnipotence. But you and your allies insisted on this fight, and now I intend to finish it. There aren’t going to be anymore Zulkirs in exile to plot against me.”


    That daemon that Szass Tam took out with one spell? It’s 20 feet tall (6.667 yards or roughly 6 meters) and weighs 14,000 pounds.

    So to start. Who on team 1 are immune to\have defence against having his soul ripped out, being turned into glass, or being torn to shreds by magical mouths?

  9. Rookie April 16, 2015 at 4:33 am -      #9

    @Limbo Lowk

    “And Here I was worried about not submitting pictures.
    Note to self, admin and/or Rookie find better pictures then me.”

    I wanted to make four images for each side, but after I found images above I thought that they will do better on their own.

  10. Limbo Lowk April 16, 2015 at 4:47 am -      #10

    Some of gwen
    youtu.be/XWwCXIIIvIQ?t=43s
    :47 creates a construct
    1:00 breaks through metal support
    1:05 shield feat
    1:09 truck tossing
    1:24 flight using constructs. Iirc she currently is capable of that without constructs thanks to some arifact.
    1:26 another durability feat for shield
    1:53-2:10 more tk examples
    ===
    Some for Pandora
    Catching arrow
    i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd485/infamousColeMacgrath/DC/Pandora/Pandorateachings2_zps21788695.jpg
    Manipulates a vamp while it’s intangible and and forces it solid
    i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd485/infamousColeMacgrath/DC/Pandora/Trinity2Bof2BSin2B-2BPandora2B282013-292B014-004_zpsac79aff2.jpg

    Teleporting
    i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd485/infamousColeMacgrath/DC/Pandora/Hzf2_zps7d46a7bf.jpg
    i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd485/infamousColeMacgrath/DC/Pandora/Hzf4_zpsbd3245b3.jpg

  11. Kitten Lord April 16, 2015 at 5:06 am -      #11

    @Rookie

    “So to start. Who on team 1 are immune to\have defence against having his soul ripped out, being turned into glass, or being torn to shreds by magical mouths?”

    Kain has spiritual defence, having been hit by both the full soul reaver and the spiritual wraith blade during the games without anything more than light physical wounds. Kain has also faced transformation magic or reality warping, he waked through the combined magic of the pillar Guardian of nature, energy and states (the master wizard of transmutation) which warped everything it touched.

    here is the excerpt from my respect thread;

    www.factpiletopia.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=45106

    “From Mortanius;

    “A triad congregates at the roof of the world, Kain; a plot to twist the land, to shape the world. North is where your vengeance lies. ”

    Kain observes the handywork of the warping field of Dark eden;

    “Seeing a mutated human:

    Kain VO
    The poor wretch was warped beyond recognition. To think that it was once human.

    Encountering Dark Eden’s strange creatures:

    Such strange creatures that had been spawned by this dark magic; things half insect and half mammal – human torsos grafted onto abominations of the flesh. Sick as it was, I could not help but admire its creator’s ingenuity. ” From the Blood omen 1 script

    And finally, Kains actualy feat itself;
    “Kain VO
    If it could be said that a land descended into madness, ‘twould be an accurate account of Dark Eden. A garden of horrors, seeded with sick perversion of nature’s design.
    I knew that this Dark Eden I had trespassed upon would continue to grow, until all of Nosgoth was consumed.

    Seeing the magic shell of Dark Eden:

    Kain VO
    Magic seethed and shifted. I watched the dome of energy as it expanded, absorbing and recreating, consuming life and leaving behind only a twisted parody.

    Encountering precipitation that has been warped by Circle magic:

    From the heavens, the tears of angels danced around me in a frenzy of fire.

    Passing through the magic shell:

    I passed through the wall unharmed. It seemed the magic only preyed on things that were alive and pure. Or, perhaps it simply decided that I was twisted enough. ”

    Despite the fact that the magic shell forced the rain/sky to rain fire, consumed, absorbed, transformed and recreated life as it expanded. Kain just walks through it, untouched completly and makes a joke on how he may have been twisted enough. ”

    From blood omen.

    Essentially Kain just walks through the bubble and notes that he was completly unaffected, I think it would be the same if a mage tried to use a power to transform or change Kains state.

    As for magical mouths, their going to try and bite off more than they can chew if their target is Kains flesh @D

    So from your source, it seems like DnD mages generally, including Szass Tam have an issue with speed, meaning that they have to aim their spell at their target which is likely to be an issue when all Vampires on Team 1 save maybe the the dragon born have either enhanced speed or teleportation plus a ton of other ways to avoid being hit.

    They then have to speak a word of power, I do not know how long it takes to say it but if he cannot do so in less than a second, hes going to have some trouble against the faster vamps. If you consider that Kain himself can cast spells in a similiar way, with a gesture but does not have to say anything or prepare further then he has an advantage.

    I also must ask, dont DnD mages have to “memorise” a certain number of spells, which only have so many casts? Is that purely gamepaly mechanics or is it real?

    Now I have to ask, who on Team 2 can tank triple digit tons of force that can be applied with little more than a gesture in their direction to an area as small as their throat or be targeted at their bodily fluids/items? These can be spammed with one hand wave after the other effortlessly. I am thinking, Kain could disarm the mages of their artifacts the same way he does Moebius, he has enough knowledge of wizards and their ways in his own world and he certainly would not suffer a staff being in the possession of his enemies.

    Kain also has the “repel” shield, which reflects magical attacks back on the caster, so potentially if one of the mages hit him with a spell while he has this over him, it would affect them instead. I think DnD has similiar spells, like mirrors and what not that reflects spells.

    Granted I know very little of Team mage.

    @Lowk

    “Gwen: Can control elements, absorb magic, cut people of from their source of magic, pretty durable, can create energy constructs, can sense others.”

    Ok this is interesting, “cut off people from their source of magic”, now Kain is, technically his own source of magic, as the balance Guardian he “regulates magic” himself, he does however use mana, but he can conjure mana from his own power. How does this work?

  12. Rookie April 16, 2015 at 5:31 am -      #12

    @Kitten Lord

    “Kain also has the “repel” shield, which reflects magical attacks back on the caster, so potentially if one of the mages hit him with a spell while he has this over him, it would affect them instead. I think DnD has similiar spells, like mirrors and what not that reflects spells.”

    Those archmages from above? They are the top of the top among FR mages. Only Tam and Elminster and creatures like Larloch are better.
    They have tons of defensive spells on them all the time. And yet you saw how easy Tam broke through their defences.

    “I also must ask, dont DnD mages have to “memorise” a certain number of spells, which only have so many casts? Is that purely gamepaly mechanics or is it real?”

    Nah it’s real, but in novels mages like Tam have thousands of spells for each day, so he will not run out of spells any time soon. And he have several “uses” of the same spell (he “memorise” it several time so for example he can use it three time in row).
    He also have magical scrolls (useless for him, but everybody on his tean can use them) and magical artifacts, which also store spells inside of them.

    “So from your source, it seems like DnD mages generally, including Szass Tam have an issue with speed, meaning that they have to aim their spell at their target which is likely to be an issue when all Vampires on Team 1 save maybe the the dragon born have either enhanced speed or teleportation plus a ton of other ways to avoid being hit.”

    Tam beat all mages while he was under attacks from a small army (quote above). His speed is okay and he always have rapid teleportation spells on him too (he just exasted those spells prior to that fight) so if anybody hit him he can teleport away automatically, without even casting spell.

    “I passed through the wall unharmed. It seemed the magic only preyed on things that were alive and pure. Or, perhaps it simply decided that I was twisted enough. ””

    Tam is necromancer. Dealing with vampires (and undead in general) is in his speciality.

  13. Limbo Lowk April 16, 2015 at 5:32 am -      #13

    Found a durability feat for Gwen even before she went Anodite.
    www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDvWAK-_5GM
    @ 0:20 seconds smacked by giant monster. Little wozy but still able to fight.
    ===
    “Now I have to ask, who on Team 2 can tank triple digit tons of force that can be applied with little more than a gesture in their direction to an area as small as their throat or be targeted at their bodily fluids/items?”

    Pandora and Molly can through being immortal. Possible Gwen as well since her current combat form is solid energy.
    ===
    “So from your source, it seems like DnD mages generally, including Szass Tam have an issue with speed, meaning that they have to aim their spell at their target which is likely to be an issue when all Vampires on Team 1 save maybe the the dragon born have either enhanced speed or teleportation plus a ton of other ways to avoid being hit.”

    Pandora can blind people? Do any of the vamps have a way to manuver or fight without sight
    i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd485/infamousColeMacgrath/DC/Pandora/J9JK_zps3904db25.jpg
    i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd485/infamousColeMacgrath/DC/Pandora/J9JM_zps37e62f5c.jpg

  14. Amm0vamp1r3 April 16, 2015 at 5:36 am -      #14

    Lestat respect thread (still under construction)

    BankGamblingtopia.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=147126

    General feats speed, flight, setting people on fire but it doesn’t work on living creatures it just causes ruptures in the brain etc

    Dracula respect thread
    BankGamblingtopia.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=147317

  15. Kitten Lord April 16, 2015 at 5:49 am -      #15

    @Rookie

    “They have tons of defensive spells on them all the time. And yet you saw how easy Tam broke through their defences.”

    Can you source this please, more specifically what those defenses are?

    “Nah it’s real, but in novels mages like Tam have thousands of spells for each day”

    Mind sourcing this for me as well so I know where I stand on what they can and cannot cast?

    “Tam beat all mages while he was under attacks from a small army (quote above). His speed is okay and he always have rapid teleportation spells on him too (he just exasted those spells prior to that fight) so if anybody hit him he can teleport away automatically, without even casting spell.”

    Dont forget though that at least a few of the vampires can also teleport, Kains dimensional teleport from the reaver is a spam of about 6+ teleports at least in the space of about a second or so. So if he teleported away, depending on distance it may not be long before he has to keep teleporting to escape. You also said it activates on him already being hit, if that hit is the reaver, well good luck, Tam may come out the other side of his teleport in piecies.

    “Tam is necromancer. Dealing with vampires (and undead in general) is in his speciality.”

    You could argue the same for Kain, Kain has shown he eats wizards for breakfast, lunch and dinner. The second to last boss of Blood omen is a necromancer.

    @Lowk

    “Pandora can blind people? Do any of the vamps have a way to manuver or fight without sight”

    I am not sure, Kain has never been blinded, assuming the magic gets through his general magical resistances any vampire who can mist form or demterilise will likely just do that, and in so doing, reconstitute their eyes. Also when traveling as mist he needs not physical eyes to know where he is going, same when he is in bat form, unless the eyes of the bats become his vision, but then he has many eyes.

    I worry for team mage for the sake of them having to actually say words after aiming their attacks. I can see from above that Tam is going to be harmed most by this as he has to make motions and say words in some cases, but even Pandora in a previous scan says some words while gesturing at a vampire to stop it from going mist.

    “Pandora and Molly can through being immortal. Possible Gwen as well since her current combat form is solid energy.”

    Is this solid energy invulnerable to physical harm? As for being immortal, what does that mean exactly? Most vampires, including Kain are immortla but physical force can “damage” them in a way. Wouldnt either Pandora or Molly get knocked out or heavily damaged if nearly 200 tons of force suddenly slammed into their forehead?

  16. Limbo Lowk April 16, 2015 at 5:51 am -      #16

    “Ok this is interesting, “cut off people from their source of magic”, now Kain is, technically his own source of magic, as the balance Guardian he “regulates magic” himself, he does however use mana, but he can conjure mana from his own power. How does this work?”

    She’s used against an energy vampire to basically sap any energy he had and cut him off from was getting energy from another magician.

  17. Limbo Lowk April 16, 2015 at 6:14 am -      #17

    Contego
    youtu.be/m3qqnRfZjOI?t=6m40s
    It is at 6:39. It’s a little slower then I remember. The spell charmcaster used then was reversed by gwen @30 seconds would probably be better.

    2:40 spell that basically melts you attack(That’s light by the way) and you.

    4:10 shows their power can block eon’s attack.(temporal attack that ages you to dust). A little after that is her paralyze spell.

  18. Kitten Lord April 16, 2015 at 6:20 am -      #18

    So I looked on the Ben 10 wiki;-

    ben10.wikia.com/wiki/Mana

    “Mana is an Anodite’s source of power, energy and strength. While it is incredibly powerful, it is not invincible. Constructs made out of mana seem to have similar properties to either glass, light, or what appears to be metal. In What Are Little Girls Made Of?”

    So their energy or “mana” forms are not indestructible or even intangible, their constructs are also made of mana and are not necessarily especially durable either, even to physical blows assuming the wiki is true.

    Now looking at;

    www.comicvine.com/pandora/4005-81779/

    “Immortality: She cannot die by normal means such as age, disease or starvation. Even wounds seem to have no effect on her, she has been shown getting shot straight through her head without effect.”

    So she can be physically pierced, so being smashed to piecies to the point of not being able to fight is a potentialy TK use…..as is blood drinking, infact she could become an infinite blood font for the vamps if Kain removes her arms, legs, and her head assuming she can survive this.

  19. Limbo Lowk April 16, 2015 at 6:47 am -      #19

    “I am not sure, Kain has never been blinded, assuming the magic gets through his general magical resistances any vampire who can mist form or demterilise will likely just do that, and in so doing, reconstitute their eyes.”

    But in that form that wouldn’t be able to do much and she could just cast it again. Not to mention the binding spell is meant to keep them from going back to mist form.
    ===
    “I worry for team mage for the sake of them having to actually say words after aiming their attacks.”

    Well they don’t have defense like a dome shields and wards to protect them while they say it.
    Most of Gwen and Pandora’s spell don’t need to be aimed. They are also pretty maneuverable themselves. And thier offensive/defensive stuff is done with gestures
    youtu.be/Zxhfs7FJh00?t=3m28s
    i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd485/infamousColeMacgrath/DC/Pandora/Pandoramagicpull2_zps3c60d792.jpg
    Or channeled through weapons like he where Pandora reverts the world’s evil back into it human form.
    i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd485/infamousColeMacgrath/DC/Pandora/Pandoramagicpull2_zps3c60d792.jpg

    As well as a Molly that can either mentally or visible camouflage their actions. That probably going to have to come later since I have to go through a book to find it but iirc Molly cloaked a room to blind someone.
    ===
    “Is this solid energy invulnerable to physical harm?”

    No but it’s not subject to the same weakness like flesh is. And given that she’s made of the same energy that allowed her to shield from a blast that leveled an entire factory and about half a mile it no wonder that giant slapping her didn’t break everything in her body. She can still be hurt but she should still be able to survive.
    ===
    “As for being immortal, what does that mean exactly?”

    You can’t kill them the same way you can kill a regular human. Pandora just heals
    3.bp.blogspot.com/-Be7NZ22Qigk/Ura0xyzPf9I/AAAAAAABN2I/MAajdJa_-6c/s1600/-009+copy.jpg

    Don’t exactly recall how winter royalty survive but it takes a lot to kill them for good. Unless someone else finds it in my stead I try and find the quotes later.

  20. Kitten Lord April 16, 2015 at 6:59 am -      #20

    @Lowk

    “But in that form that wouldn’t be able to do much and she could just cast it again. Not to mention the binding spell is meant to keep them from going back to mist form.”

    No but Kain goes in and out of mist form in the blink of an eye. So essentially he can recover from blindness in the blink of an eye, sure she can cast it again but she cant spend her entire time trying to blind each of the vampires solely. Shes bound to do something else, in which case they can counter attack, I take it she does not use blindness in every fight in the comics?

    As for the binding, does it specifcally stop vampires from ever going back to mist form or does it just make them tangible from mist form?

    Like I said before, Kain cna “percieve” where he is going in both mist form and bat form, where he does not have regular eyes, so its arguable whether or not his eyes are going to be relevent.

    “You can’t kill them the same way you can kill a regular human.”

    But they can be damaged. I wonder how much damage it takes to kill them.

    “And thier offensive/defensive stuff is done with gestures”

    I dont understand your first video, at the time stamp you gave me it looks like shes just fireing beams from her hands and in the second two pictures (must have posted the same scan twice by accident?) she looks like shes swinging some sort of chain?

    Granted they can fly and are manouverable but my point is the vampires can all teleport, some very fast and their powers have little to no travel time like TK for instance. Its not even a bean, its just point and think which is faster than hand waving for spells or spoken words. I think Vampires can do “more” actions in the time it takes the mages to do one spell.

    Combined with the fact the vampires can, as I say go instangible, teleport etc, the mages will have to keep turning around, switching targets, switching spells to keep up with the intangibility and what not. All while being buffeted with heavy firepower.

    The force of one TK bolt from Kain will likely launch any mage flying, even if it does not kill them, making it impossible for them to cast while their flying at hundreds of miles per hour through the air or up and down if he decides to chuck them around. the G forces will also likely knock some of them unconscious. The more “human” ones anyway. In energy form Gwen may be safe unless life mana form still has the ability to get knocked down/out?

  21. Limbo Lowk April 16, 2015 at 7:04 am -      #21

    “not necessarily especially durable either, even to physical blows assuming the wiki is true.”

    It’s not. See the video in post #10
    www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_5yAsOfgws
    www.youtube.com/watch?v=mx7f4T8UV5A
    Like I mention her barrier survived a factory being blown up from the inside a few meters from the source(“Max out”).

  22. Limbo Lowk April 16, 2015 at 7:20 am -      #22

    “I dont understand your first video, at the time stamp you gave me it looks like shes just fireing beams from her hands and in the second two pictures”

    Most of her stuff can be done with a gesture. Like tking multiple trucks in the air or creating barriers.
    Pandora herself also has cast an illusion spell while she was in the middle of fighting. Which reminds me I forgot she could do this
    i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd485/infamousColeMacgrath/DC/Pandora/Pandoraoverloadsmagicnukeweapon_zps2e9ee9b8.jpg
    Thats Hope mode. She overloaded a device designed to channel a mages magic into a nuke.
    And fast enough to cast spells to stop bullets.
    3.bp.blogspot.com/-_vkKyAAivRY/VBmNNHMXJrI/AAAAAAAE1K4/7xMIRslDCgg/s1600/p14_8%2Bcopy.jpg
    ===
    I’ll have to get back too this later. I haven’t slept and I have school to get to later on.

  23. Friendlysociopath April 16, 2015 at 9:34 am -      #23

    Doesn’t Team Vampire have access to Time Stops?

  24. Limbo Lowk April 16, 2015 at 4:26 pm -      #24

    Molly veiling without a word
    “And then a stone sailed in from nowhere and struck the creature on the snout.

    “Hey!” called Molly’s voice. “Hey, Captain Asphalt! Hey, tar baby! Over here!”

    The creature and I turned to see Molly standing maybe twenty yards away, in plain sight. She flung another rock, and it bounced off the creature’s broad chest. Its heartbeat began to accelerate and grow louder again.

    “Let’s go, gorgeous!” Molly called. “You and me!” She turned sideways to the thing, rolled her hips, and made an exaggerated motion of swatting herself on the ass. “Come get some!”

    The thing tensed and then rushed forward, covering the ground with astonishing speed.

    Molly vanished.

    The creature smashed into the earth where she’d been standing, with its huge talons balled into furious fists, slamming them eight inches into the earth.

    There was a peal of mocking laughter, and another rock bounced off of the thing, this time from the left. Furious, it whirled to rush Molly again – and again, she vanished completely. Once more it struck at empty ground. Once more, Molly got its attention with a rock and a few taunts, only to vanish from sight as it came at her.

    Each time, she was a little closer to the creature, unable to match its raw speed. And each time, she led it a little farther away from the three of us. A couple of times, she even shouted, “Toro, toro!”

    Changes, Chap 25
    ===
    Molly creating several illusions at once without a word.
    One of the turtlenecks, presumably their leader, said, “Submit yourself to the will of the masters. Your pain will be much shortened.”

    “Right,” Molly said. She rolled her neck as if to loosen it up and nodded at the speaker. “You’re my huckleberry.”

    The turtleneck tilted his head to one side, frowning.

    Molly blew him a kiss.

    A gust of wind, channeled through the lower street, rushed by, tugging at her ragged clothes, pulling her long coattails out like a flag beside her—and then she exploded.

    It happened so fast that I could barely understand what was happening, much less anticipate what would come next. Where my apprentice had been standing suddenly became half a dozen identical, leanly ragged figures darting in every direction.

    One Molly flew sideways, both arms extended in front of her, firing a pair of 1911 Colts, their hammering wham-wham-wham as recognizable as familiar music. Another flipped into a cartwheel and tumbled out of sight behind a parked car. Two more ran to each door, virtually mirror images of each other, swiping a card key and slamming into the buildings. A fifth Molly ducked behind a mound of snow and emerged with a shotgun, which she began emptying at the turtlenecks. The sixth ran to the motorcycle, picked it up as if it had been a plastic toy, and flung it toward her attackers.

    My jaw dropped open. I mean, I had known the kid was good with illusions, but Hell’s bells. I might have been able to do one of the illusions Molly had just wrought. Once, I had managed two, under all kinds of mortal pressure. She had just thrown out six. Simultaneously. And at the drop of a hat, to boot.

    My gast was pretty well flabbered.

    The turtlenecks clearly didn’t know how to react, either. The ones with guns returned fire, and they all scattered for cover. The motorcycle didn’t hit anyone as it tumbled past the group, though the crashing sound it made when it landed was so convincing that it made me doubt my such-as-they-were senses. The guns barked several times as the illusionary Mollys all sought cover behind the snow mounds and cars.”

    -Ghost Story, Chap 22
    ===
    Another bit of the other encounter where Pandora teleported again.
    i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd485/infamousColeMacgrath/DC/Pandora/Hzf6_zps0af6ca58.jpg
    i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd485/infamousColeMacgrath/DC/Pandora/Hzf7_zps4af7bc18.jpg

    Creating a shield without an incantation
    i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd485/infamousColeMacgrath/DC/Pandora/Pandorashield_zps267e4ad5.jpg
    ===
    “Combined with the fact the vampires can, as I say go instangible, teleport etc, the mages will have to keep turning around, switching targets, switching spells to keep up with the intangibility and what not.”

    Which can be countered by AoE or attacks that don’t need to be directed.
    Also Pandora can teleport as well and she and Gwen can both sense where things are. Molly as well due to her ability to feel emotions.
    ===
    “making it impossible for them to cast while their flying at hundreds of miles per hour through the air or up and down”

    Pandora has been struck by one of wonder woman villains
    i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd485/infamousColeMacgrath/DC/Pandora/Pandorafight2_zpsbf75f67e.jpg
    and was still able to retaliate
    i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd485/infamousColeMacgrath/DC/Pandora/Pandorafight3_zpsfc92aa3a.jpg
    ===
    “Kains dimensional teleport”

    Then he may have trouble getting out some of Gwen Constructs. It’s shown against the flame keeper circle you can use that to get into or out of constraints made from them.
    ===
    “I dont understand your first video, at the time stamp you gave me it looks like shes just fireing beams from her hands and in the second two pictures”

    It was a chain. My point was that they don’t need hax spells to attack them to keep them from pressing the offensive. They still have stuff like tk, energy constructs and weapons powered to harm powerful being. On top of that they aren’t like normal slow moving wizards and they have someone that can cloak and or create illusions.

  25. Kitten Lord April 16, 2015 at 6:01 pm -      #25

    @Lowk

    “Which can be countered by AoE or attacks that don’t need to be directed.
    Also Pandora can teleport as well and she and Gwen can both sense where things are. Molly as well due to her ability to feel emotions.”

    They would have to do this in fractions of a second, like I said, having to keep changing. At any point the vamps, mostly Kain I am mentioning at this point but LoS Dracula can spam teleport as well could either be at range or up close behind them.

    How good are these senses and how fast could they react to them? Could they do anything to stop an incoming blow as well? Considering it takes Kain say, 200 milliseconds to do a teleport slash with his sword she would have to do a spell that required less than a gesture AFTER reacting to such a sudden attack, which would require not only great reflexes but quick senses as well.

    “Pandora has been struck by one of wonder woman villains”

    Fainting due to G-forces is somewhat different to being struck though.

    “Then he may have trouble getting out some of Gwen Constructs. It’s shown against the flame keeper circle you can use that to get into or out of constraints made from them.”

    He has his dimentional teleport from the reaver, a regular teleport through sorcery he casts himself. The dimensional is the super fast one though. What do you mean he would have trouble getting out of something?

    “It was a chain. My point was that they don’t need hax spells to attack them to keep them from pressing the offensive. They still have stuff like tk, energy constructs and weapons powered to harm powerful being. On top of that they aren’t like normal slow moving wizards and they have someone that can cloak and or create illusions.”

    Granted their not necessarily slow moving but their still at a disadvantage imo when their opponents do not have to make much more than a gesture to cast pretty much ALL their spells, for example Kain does all his powers with a basic hand movement or so. nothing more than that and he can no doubt perform a lot of the feats youve shown me in some form or another.

    TK and teleportation. forcefields, all easy stuff. Kain has, on top of that an AoE time slow, a single target time stop, his AoE blood draining spell. I can see him drinking Pandoras blood and getting a bunch of powers, not sure about Tam or molly since hes undead and molly can be energy, if she has blood in her human form though maybe.

    “Most of her stuff can be done with a gesture. Like tking multiple trucks in the air or creating barriers.”

    Perhaps but Kain can as well, only he can TK with the force of multiple trains and their coaches and his barriers are not only physically strong but reflective against magic. Whats their Tank like? for example, you say Gwen tanked an explosion that can bust a factory, what about the other 3? I still do not see that stopping Kain.

    ALso what of their soul resistances? mind control? what is stopping Kain from casting “inspire hate” and turning Team 2 against eachother?

  26. Kitten Lord April 16, 2015 at 6:38 pm -      #26

    Sorry for double post but heres some resources on Szass Tam;

    www.realmshelps.net/npc/szass.shtml

    And;

    www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Main_Page

    Is a useful resource for finding out what some of that means if your not DnD initiated.

    Its hard to sift through the gameplay mechanics bur essentially he has some immunities, assuming thats canon, but he can only cast just over 60 spells, most of those low level ones.

  27. Rookie April 16, 2015 at 6:49 pm -      #27

    @Kitten Lord

    “Can you source this please, more specifically what those defenses are?


    Drowlich Dyrr survived a small planet, life wiping attack in novels thanks to his defencive gear and spells. Thay zulkirs are above him and have accesses to superior gear (they trade with devils, demons, angels and so on. Unlike drow, Thay’s mages do not limited themself to only “evil” artifacts”).
    And usual stuff. Reflection, anti-polymorph spells, anti illusion\vision\who knows that else
    “Nevron donned a horned, red-lacquered devil mask invested with every charm of augmented vision known to the Order of Divination, and it gave him a far superior view of what was transpiring.”
    anti-soul ripping, anti-astral, that kind of stuff. Life in Thay is dangerous.

    Mind sourcing this for me as well so I know where I stand on what they can and cannot cast?”

    According to this www.realmshelps.net/npc/szass.shtml he knows every spell. Dunno know if this is true (I know for sure that he doesn’t know Silver Flame spell), but among his feats was creating pocket dimension and artificial world inside that dimension, ability to create and cast very complicated ritual which can turn him into TOAA (although those feats are useless here, they take a lot of prep-time), so he really knows a lot about magic.

    “The second to last boss of Blood omen is a necromancer. ”

    Not very impressive necromancer. He only created sceletons in battle against Kain (And resisted transmutation in cutscene, that was a badass feat, can’t argue against that). Tam can summon ghost dragons, that’s a bit above sceletons. Mortanius also doesn’t have special magic against undeads, unlike DnD mages,

  28. Rookie April 16, 2015 at 6:55 pm -      #28

    @Kitten Lord

    Found that thread. Mith did a good job explaining Szass Tam powers, hope it can help:
    forums.spacebattles.com/threads/szass-tam-vs-dovahkiin.309582/

  29. Kitten Lord April 16, 2015 at 7:08 pm -      #29

    @Rookie

    “According to this www.realmshelps.net/npc/szass.shtml he knows every spell.”

    Could be hyperbole, but the source, the same one I pointed out also says he has a fair limit on his spell casting. Based on that he can only cast one of each of the higher level spells. Which tbh is not that good since the low level ones become increasingly less useful in a major battle like this. And their not all necessarily going to land either.

    “Not very impressive necromancer.”

    indeed, but I doubt Tam has ever faced a vampire as impressive as Kain before either.

    Based on his feats Kain likely has the equel resistance to a bunch of DnD artifacts, rings and armours anyway if he was in the game he would be immune or highly resistant to everything based to his feats in the Lok series. Most magic thats ever touched or hit him has only done minor damage or had little to no effect and thats without him casting his shields.

    Also note, Kains sword nullifies magic forcefields on touch.

    Also as per FP rules, his phylactory is likely to be in the match. Since he probably needs it to remain alive or a lich in the first place. That said, the reaver will likely end him on strike regardless if he cant survive it.

  30. Rookie April 16, 2015 at 7:10 pm -      #30

    @Kitten Lord

    “Also note, Kains sword nullifies magic forcefields on touch.”

    It doesn’t. Hylden artifact resisted Reaver and was the main reason why Kain lost to the Hylden Lord.

  31. Kitten Lord April 16, 2015 at 7:14 pm -      #31

    Thats the Nexus stone, which specifcally nullified the reaver, it was not a forcefield per say. In Defiance Kain added the balance emblem to the reaver, which was required for him to nullify magic barriers throughout the game.

  32. Limbo Lowk April 16, 2015 at 7:44 pm -      #32

    “Considering it takes Kain say, 200 milliseconds to do a teleport slash with his sword she would have to do a spell that required less than a gesture AFTER reacting to such a sudden attack, which would require not only great reflexes but quick senses as well.”

    Gwen has managed a barrier as an explosion was happening around her. Pandora catches arrows and can dodge attacks from people with superhuman stats. Not to mention that 200 milliseconds is actually within normal human reaction time.
    Gwen and Pandora have cast spells without a gestures before just words.
    They can be attacking or defending or out of reach while they cast.
    ===
    “At any point the vamps, mostly Kain I am mentioning at this point but LoS Dracula can spam teleport as well could either be at range or up close behind them.”

    Kind of difficult when half the team can fly and teleport. And the other half can be invisible while there are duplicates running around.
    ===
    “Granted their not necessarily slow moving but their still at a disadvantage imo when their opponents do not have to make much more than a gesture to cast pretty much ALL their spells”

    And most of team mages defenses can likewise be brought up with the same ease for themselves and the group. Only the more exotic spells require incantation. The difference being while they are doing that they can still say other spells.
    ===
    “I can see him drinking Pandoras blood and getting a bunch of powers,”

    How does that work exactly?
    I don’t think her power is in her blood. Save maybe the regen and he already has that.
    ===
    Soul wise Pandora is sort of like the opposite of Kain. That giant that crushed her. Later on she reached into her soul essentially giving her a change of heart. She also manipulated other with this ability.
    Molly as I mentioned earlier is a telepath, she was trained to resist mental and spiritual fuckery and can mess with the mind of others.
    Gwen isn’t immune to manipulation but she did resist mind control from a world scale mind controller for a bit.

  33. Epicazeroth April 16, 2015 at 9:43 pm -      #33

    @Kitten: 200 ms is well within normal adrenaline-boosted human ranges.
    ===
    @Lowk: “she did resist mind control from a world scale mind controller for a bit.”
    When was that? Or at least, who?
    ===
    Pandora also has enhanced durability. She took multiple hits from Giganta (it broke her spine and skull) and got up immediately. And her guns are powerful enough to hurt Superman – or at least hurt him enough to cause him pain.
    =
    I haven’t seen Ben 10 in a long time, but I’m watching Teen Titans. Does anyone think Gwen vs Raven would be a good match?

  34. Karen Starr April 16, 2015 at 10:03 pm -      #34

    Maybe… So long as it’s not TTGo Raven, because she is honestly horribly overpowered.

  35. Limbo Lowk April 17, 2015 at 12:13 am -      #35

    “When was that? Or at least, who?”

    Diagon in Ultimate Mnemey part 1. She managed to shake off the first attempt.
    Interesting note, she ripped energy from tree til they withered and died… that probably work on the vamps themselves being all undead and all but any magic they have or though at her could be absorbed.

  36. Limbo Lowk April 17, 2015 at 2:47 am -      #36

    Pandora more hope mode against Blight
    i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd485/infamousColeMacgrath/DC/Pandora/FyNh_zpsefbdcfc8.jpg
    i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd485/infamousColeMacgrath/DC/Pandora/FyNi_zpsb0d6d675.jpg
    i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd485/infamousColeMacgrath/DC/Pandora/FyNj_zps63d8cd7f.jpg
    i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd485/infamousColeMacgrath/DC/Pandora/FyNk_zps7ebdf3b1.jpg
    i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd485/infamousColeMacgrath/DC/Pandora/FyNm_zps7b7fbd48.jpg
    Blight survived hits from a monster dishing out close to nuclear force with it’s claws
    1.bp.blogspot.com/-V4OQAk-j-5U/UwWq6chjbZI/AAAAAAAAb5c/1Howj5yXu2E/s1600/-014.jpg

  37. Limbo Lowk April 17, 2015 at 2:51 am -      #37

    i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd485/infamousColeMacgrath/DC/Pandora/StrangeandPandoraIllusion_zps6bd0da47.jpg
    Mentions of her psychic defense.
    i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd485/infamousColeMacgrath/DC/Pandora/StrangeandPandoraIllusion_zps6bd0da47.jpg
    Also note how she cast an illusion during her clash with blight and teleported without anyone the wiser. That one will show up a little later when the comments done moderating.

  38. Kitten Lord April 17, 2015 at 5:22 am -      #38

    @Lowk

    “Gwen has managed a barrier as an explosion was happening around her. Pandora catches arrows and can dodge attacks from people with superhuman stats.
    Gwen and Pandora have cast spells without a gestures before just words.
    They can be attacking or defending or out of reach while they cast.”

    Can you show me more of these “superhuman” people and arrow catching, I have seen one instance of arrow catching and it was from someone aiming a bow at her face and her catching the shaft. Its not the same as someone suddenly, without warning or her knowledge teleporting behind her and attacking in fractions of a second, then doing the same above or below if that is not successful.

    You say they can be out of reach while they cast but theres never “out of reach” when your faceing teleporters. They will be under pressure perhaps constantly the entire match so any spell that takes more than 200 milliseconds could end in their death.

    “Not to mention that 200 milliseconds is actually within normal human reaction time.”

    “200 ms is well within normal adrenaline-boosted human ranges.”

    The reaction itself has to be useful though, theres no use her brain reacting to it, and only being able to twitch her eye slightly in reaction as the sword carves through her.

    Since pretty much every feat from all these mages can be judged as being within the 1 second cast radius and then thought speed, decision also comes after reaction she has not got a lot of time.

    Reaction time is also relevent in regards to what you do not know is coming at all, most human reaction time tests are pressing buttons or in pre-designed tests where people are ready, Pandora cannot “prepare” for what she does not know. She did not see a huge woman thumping her with her fist so I cant see how Kain teleporting behind her would be easy for her to react to, but how is she going to stop him, whats her impulse attack like? maybe a barrier? whats her strongest barrier, and is she likely to put all her power into it?

    Oh, then add the time slow, Kains AoE time reaver attack slows time around him for about 10 seconds, if he teleports to her after that, any attack and reaction time she has will be slowed to a crawl.

    “Kind of difficult when half the team can fly and teleport. And the other half can be invisible while there are duplicates running around.”

    Course its difficult, just not impossible. The same can be said for both sides, good luck hitting any of the vamps while their teleporting, going intangible or transforming. So what attacks do you think will actually do any real damage to the vamps who are immortal/have insane regen?

    “The difference being while they are doing that they can still say other spells.”

    Your suggesting they can both cast a defensive incanation AND raise defenses at the same time? as in, all within fractions of a second, can you show me this please? For example in all your scans and videos so far the characters seem to do things one after the other. I cant recall the scan/video where someone cast a shield AND an attack at the exact same time.

    “How does that work exactly?”

    Its not necessarily something in the blood, Kain gains mystical powers as well as supernatural, not just physical abilities. For example he gained immorlation from Magnus and telekinesis from the seer.

    “That giant that crushed her. Later on she reached into her soul essentially giving her a change of heart. She also manipulated other with this ability.”

    So she does have a soul? Which could be vulnerable?

    “Molly as I mentioned earlier is a telepath, she was trained to resist mental and spiritual fuckery and can mess with the mind of others.”

    So what are her feats? Any powerful mind rapers who can at the very least completly dominate a human under their will that she just “no sold”? Kain has a magical version and a pure mental version so these people may need both magical and mental feats.

    “Gwen isn’t immune to manipulation but she did resist mind control from a world scale mind controller for a bit.”

    I see, so its possible she could be affected. I think this team may be in trouble from inspire hate then, which forces everyone in an area to attack their allies with anger/ bloodlust.

    “Mentions of her psychic defense.”

    He says she needs “all her defenses”, so she has something but we do not know how good it is, or if its tested?

    @Epic

    “Pandora also has enhanced durability. She took multiple hits from Giganta (it broke her spine and skull) and got up immediately. And her guns are powerful enough to hurt Superman – or at least hurt him enough to cause him pain.”

    Alas Kain does not punch though, as for making Superman feel pain, thats not necessarily impressive, what have her guns pierced? there must have been occassions where her guns have gone through a wall, material or a person so we can gauge their damage?

  39. Limbo Lowk April 17, 2015 at 7:19 am -      #39

    Wow that comment is still in moderation.
    ===
    “Can you show me more of these “superhuman” people and arrow catching, I have seen one instance of arrow catching and it was from someone aiming a bow at her face and her catching the shaft.”

    I already showed the bullet catching.
    She also outspeed a the vamp Andrew Bennett
    i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd485/infamousColeMacgrath/DC/Pandora/Trinity20of20Sin20-20Pandora202013-20014-010_zps7jnrqqew.jpg
    Who regularly blitz other vamps and has caught a a surprise arrow
    i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd485/infamousColeMacgrath/DC/Pandora/p3_92Bcopy_zps7cfvgz4x.jpg

    Also dodging superman
    i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd485/infamousColeMacgrath/DC/Pandora/Dj4R_zps9393ac4e.jpg
    Who even is his younger less powerful years was fast enough to both catch and outrun bullets.
    ===
    “You say they can be out of reach while they cast but theres never “out of reach” when your faceing teleporters.”

    Depends on how far they can teleport.
    ===
    “They will be under pressure perhaps constantly the entire match”

    And they have the ability to speak while blasting, moving, defending, absorbing, or deflecting. Pandora does the teleport thing as well like I shown in post #10. And she did it again.
    i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd485/infamousColeMacgrath/DC/Pandora/Hzf6_zps0af6ca58.jpg
    i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd485/infamousColeMacgrath/DC/Pandora/Hzf7_zps4af7bc18.jpg
    Both times showing she teleports into an attack.
    ===
    “Since pretty much every feat from all these mages can be judged as being within the 1 second cast radius”

    Execpt for pandora who was fast enough to bullet time a a spell.
    ===
    “Reaction time is also relevent in regards to what you do not know is coming at all, most human reaction time tests are pressing buttons or in pre-designed tests where people are ready, Pandora cannot “prepare” for what she does not know.”

    Actually out of all of them Pandora probably already knows what they are capable of by looking at them. Thanks to her curse letting her see all the bad stuff you’ve done.
    ===
    “The same can be said for both sides, good luck hitting any of the vamps while their teleporting”

    Some of thier spells don’t need aiming though. And the same could be said for trying to hit invisible moving targets while a bunch of decoys are on the field.
    Also do the vamps have super-senses(Hearing, sight, etc) becasue Molly came up with a spell that overloads super senses. As well as covering them.
    ===
    “Its not necessarily something in the blood, Kain gains mystical powers as well as supernatural, not just physical abilities.”

    But none of her abilities are really tied to her save the the avatar of light and hope thing and that has shown that evil or dark and that power do not mix well. depowering powers and leaving you defenseless bad. Pretty sure Kain is a pretty bad dude. I don’t think he wants that.
    ===
    “So she does have a soul? Which could be vulnerable?”

    But it isn’t and and has defenses against it.
    ===
    “He says she needs “all her defenses”, so she has something but we do not know how good it is, or if its tested?”

    The fact that she wasn’t overcome or had her soul taken while she was in there even when literally arms deep in the source that causes it.
    ===
    “there must have been occassions where her guns have gone through a wall, material or a person so we can gauge their damage?”

    She can channel he magic through the bullets to harm thing regular bullets can’t(Which explains the superman thing.). Like leaving gaping holes in creatures. I find the scan but she can channel that same power into all her weapons for a variety of effects. Like harming divine beings or turning silver.
    ===
    “So what are her feats? Any powerful mind rapers who can at the very least completly dominate a human under their will that she just “no sold”?”

    Her first time kind of fucked up a guy’s head. She meant to just make him not want to smoke but it was one of those I’m to good for my own good scenarioes.
    -Some of training later-
    A she and a really old year-old wizard who experienced in dominating others and body switching had a mental and soul battle. Unlike her mentor Dresden who basically has a fortress for a defense, Molly defenses are more like a maze with decoys with ninjas trying to get at your mind while you get at her’s. So trying to just break through even if your powerful would take time and unless your own your guard trying it she could end up controlling you body, mind, and soul.
    ===
    Oh yeah and Giant woman tried a different method. Instead of just wailing on her she ripped her in half, squeezes her, and tossed her into the street so hard it cratered. Her legs had grown back. So yeah, deadpool-like healing factor at he base level. enhanced durability in super-sayian mode. I try to get to that later.

  40. Kitten Lord April 17, 2015 at 6:22 pm -      #40

    @Lowk

    “I already showed the bullet catching.”

    She catches the bullets but we cannot see the shots fired and when, there’s no time frame so I cannot discern whether it was the equivalent to aim dodging or whether she had some kind of clue it was coming.

    “Who regularly blitz other vamps and has caught a a surprise arrow”

    Not necessarily surprise, in the scan before he catches it someone shouts at him while its in mid flight and it apparently makes a noise.

    “Execpt for pandora who was fast enough to bullet time a a spell”

    If she did bullet time it, she hastily erected a barrier strong enough just to stop bullets, if her knee jerk reaction is to make a barrier its not necesserily going to be enough. Especially when the reaver dispels barriers on contact.

    “Thanks to her curse letting her see all the bad stuff you’ve done.”

    Depending on what is classed as “bad” I dont see her seeing any of Kains powers tbh, since he never uses them in an evil way.

    “Also do the vamps have super-senses(Hearing, sight, etc) becasue Molly came up with a spell that overloads super senses. As well as covering them.”

    not sure, dont think so. Kain has magically imbued sight that allows him to see invisible/multi dimentional beings, like the Elder God. But thats not an enhanced physical sense like I think your refering to.

    “The fact that she wasn’t overcome or had her soul taken ”

    Can you actually show me a scan of a being that can take souls, trying to take hers and failing due to her resistances?

    ” Like leaving gaping holes in creatures”

    Ok, this sounds like a gauge for actual damage. So how strong are the creatures/objects shes pierced? Then we can discern if she can pierce kain.

    “o trying to just break through even if your powerful would take time and unless your own your guard trying it she could end up controlling you body, mind, and soul.”

    it sounds like in the Dresden universe mind control is percieved as a battle on the astral plane, of one mind against the other wheras in legacy of kain, they do not bother with all that,. they can just break into your head unless you have resistance. Its hard to quantify either way if their not elementally compatible.

    Mind showing me some of those quotes/scans concerning her mind fight with the wizard?

  41. Limbo Lowk April 17, 2015 at 6:41 pm -      #41

    Dont got a lot of time.
    “it sounds like in the Dresden universe mind control is percieved as a battle on the astral plane”

    They have magic like what kain does. The defenses make it so that that way doesn’t work and you have to get more invested in breaking those defenses.

  42. Limbo Lowk April 17, 2015 at 6:56 pm -      #42

    “she hastily erected a barrier strong enough just to stop bullets”

    The bullets dissappeared so I don’t think thats was her barrier. She has made solid barrier and it doesn’t require a spell. That looked like portals.

  43. Kitten Lord April 17, 2015 at 6:59 pm -      #43

    I would have to be given some examples. Not all fictions use that same system but that does not mean the most powerful mind masters in fiction would have to play by the Dresden universe rules either.

    For example Marcus from legacy of Kain can mind control humans with ease, a lot of them at once but he could not do anything against Kain, who no sold it with ease even when he was young and just generally unevolved or enhanced.

    So I would need examples of that sort of thing being in Dresdens universe. And how it would be compatible with Kains form of mind control.

    So far from what I have seen Pandora and Gwen should be fair game for the vamps hits, not sure about Molly and Tam yet.

    My idea would be Kain would likely soul possess Tam and then make him use his ring of three wishes to amp Kain up even further. Making him nigh unstoppable by covering him in DnD magics.

  44. Zazax April 17, 2015 at 11:23 pm -      #44

    “My idea would be Kain would likely soul possess Tam and then make him use his ring of three wishes to amp Kain up even further.”
    Any of the ‘Protection From (Alignment)’ spells render the person under them immune to possession (along with a few other such things), and they’re pretty standard fare for defensive buffs. Its big brother Mind Blank (An absolute must-have for any high-level mage) does it too.
    Tam would be crazy not to have a Contingent Celerity on him at all times too. Because D&D magic is ridiculous.

    Also… no mention of Control Undead or any of Tam’s other “I Win” spells when facing down Undead? For shame.

    Also also, does Tam still have his pocket dimension? Because if he does, why not just Plane Shift to it and then Astral Project back to the battlefield and proceed to be undefeatable?

    Although I should note I’m going off of 3.5, and this is probably somewhat out of date because 4e and 5e suck.

  45. Friendlysociopath April 17, 2015 at 11:39 pm -      #45

    Because if he does, why not just Plane Shift to it and then Astral Project back to the battlefield and proceed to be undefeatable?

    I don’t know that it could ever be used how you lot talk about it- it’s for going to the Astral Plane; you can’t fire spells from it to the Material Plane.

    Although I should note I’m going off of 3.5, and this is probably somewhat out of date because 4e and 5e suck.

    HEY- I enjoy being a Cleric in 5th edition, I’m a badass walking buff that destroys anyone who walks up to me.
    engl393-dnd5th.wikia.com/wiki/Astral_Projection
    So much of D&D is people stretching the rules just to get what they want… someone around here was talking about transmuting dirt into antimatter just because antimatter didn’t have a gold value.

  46. Limbo Lowk April 18, 2015 at 12:45 am -      #46

    “I would have to be given some examples.”

    “I took a deep breath. “Rosie is pregnant. And she showed physical evidence of drug addiction, but none of the psychological evidence of withdrawal. I think Molly took steps when she found out her friend was pregnant-to force her away from the drugs. I think she did it to protect the baby. And then I think she did the same thing to Nelson. But something went wrong. I think what she did to him broke something.” I shook my head. “He got paranoid, erratic.”
    -Dresden Files: Proven Guilty
    ===
    Lasting fear. This was when Molly was just an apprentice learning about magic.
    “That explains why your spell damaged Nelson so much more severely.”
    “I don’t understand. I never hurt him.”
    “I don’t think you did it on purpose.” I waved a hand, palm up. “Magic comes from a lot of places. But especially from your emotions. They influence almost anything you can do. You were angry at Nelson when you cast the spell. Contaminated the whole thing with your anger.”
    “I did not hurt them,” she said stubbornly. “I saved their lives.”

    -Dresden files: Proven Guilty

    Without some kind of defense magic users can get into your mind with a spell like that and do all kinds of stuff to you. That’s why the the organization Dresden belongs to gives everyone training in defending against it. Dresden’s own experience with things trying to take his soul or control his mind had lead to him teaching and sparring Molly to give them both more experience in it as well.
    ===
    And moderation is up. Post #36 for some of Pandora other form is capable of.
    ===
    “Depending on what is classed as “bad””

    The basics normally involve something dealing with one the sin like greed wrath gluttonyetc.
    ===
    “I dont see her seeing any of Kains powers tbh, since he never uses them in an evil way.”

    Really? Pulling blood from a helpless victim to kill them doesn’t seem bad to you? I know you’ve read some his quotes about his powers.

    Also nevermind, she can see a lot more then just your sins now.
    i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd485/infamousColeMacgrath/DC/Pandora/Pandoracanseeyoursins_zps880eea69.jpg
    i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd485/infamousColeMacgrath/DC/Pandora/Trinity20of20Sin20-20Pandora202013-20010-015_zps8qqtlkxe.jpg
    ===
    “not sure, dont think so. Kain has magically imbued sight that allows him to see invisible/multi dimentional beings, like the Elder God.”

    Is he resistant to being blinded of deafened?
    ===
    “Not necessarily surprise, in the scan before he catches it someone shouts at him while its in mid flight and it apparently makes a noise.”

    One he didn’t know what it was or where it was coming from until it he saw it coming at him. That still a rt/reaction feat.
    ===
    “Can you actually show me a scan of a being that can take souls, trying to take hers and failing due to her resistances?”

    The place she went to is what caused those things to be souless. Plus her soul was strong enough help contain the worst of two worlds and remained unaffected. Which is a feat in that it’s power was planetary in scope and ot changed the earth. So in addition to defenses, she has a pretty resilient soul.
    ===
    Using rage to break a spell
    i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd485/infamousColeMacgrath/DC/Pandora/327d61f1-aa37-4220-9e30-a2f98212fa53_zpszlywgif9.jpg
    So even if something like inspire hate could get through her defense she can break both herself and other free without an incantation.
    ===
    “Ok, this sounds like a gauge for actual damage. So how strong are the creatures/objects shes pierced?”

    They are the basic superhuman but they rarely go into how durable they are accept for etrigan who I don’t know if she ever faced.
    i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd485/infamousColeMacgrath/DC/Pandora/Trinity20of20Sin20-20Pandora202013-20014-018_zpstkzow7gd.jpg

    There is also being able harm this guy
    i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd485/infamousColeMacgrath/DC/Pandora/Pandoramagicinfusedweapons_zpsd9d8d1e4.jpg
    Blight took near nuclear force. He and Spectre are in the same league. She has hurt both.
    ===
    “My idea would be Kain would likely soul possess Tam”

    Molly has ripped a soul out of someone before
    “Now get the fuck out of my friend. Ideru!”
    I felt the surge of her will as she spoke the word, and suddenly reality seemed to condense around my apprentice. There was a terrible, terrible force that ripped forth from her, pulling hungrily at everything around it. I’d felt something similar once, when a nascent White Court vampire had unintentionally begun to feed on me—an energy that spiraled and swirled and pulled at the roots of my senses. But that was only one facet of the gravity that Molly exuded with the spell.
    Corpsetaker’s eyes widened in surprise and sudden strain. Then she snarled, “Have it your way. The little doctor was my second choice, in any case.”
    And then I saw Corpsetaker’s dark, mad soul flow into my apprentice on the tidal pull of the beckoning she’d performed.”

    -Ghost Story

    Also would that leave Kain weaker and more susceptible to any of the others since his body is left. Team mage has the ability to see stuff like souls and Pandora was trained to actually destroy things like that.

  47. Limbo Lowk April 18, 2015 at 12:57 am -      #47

    Crap. Don’t you guys just hate when you spot a mistake and only have like 10 seconds to edit.
    ===
    Anyway Forgot this.
    Pandora, with with just a gestures pushed a hole into a mountain
    i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd485/infamousColeMacgrath/DC/Pandora/49d30f52-6e11-40ff-8d85-a694d5814897_zpso1z7sqrl.jpg
    Also a feat in multi-tasking since she is also keeping question afloat.

  48. Zazax April 18, 2015 at 3:15 am -      #48

    “I don’t know that it could ever be used how you lot talk about it- it’s for going to the Astral Plane; you can’t fire spells from it to the Material Plane.”
    I can’t speak for 5th, but in 3rd you Astral Project, which takes your Projection to the Astral Plane, then you have your Projection Plane Shift back to the Material.
    Reading the link you sent, it looks like 5th nixed this particular strategy by having your original self overwrite our Projection when you go to another Plane. Ugh. Never mind, then.

    “HEY- I enjoy being a Cleric in 5th edition, I’m a badass walking buff that destroys anyone who walks up to me.”
    It’s just personal taste, really. Didn’t like 4th because every class felt exactly the same, and while I like 5th much more than 4th I’m not much of a fan of bounded accuracy. Again, personal taste.

    “So much of D&D is people stretching the rules just to get what they want…”
    I hear you. That antimatter example is actually surprisingly common, unfortunately. There’s enough legit stuff D&D can do with cool spell interactions (at least 3rd; don’t have enough experience with the other editions to say that with any authority) that it doesn’t need that sort of ‘creative’ rules interpretation crap.

  49. Kitten Lord April 18, 2015 at 8:41 am -      #49

    @Zaz

    “Any of the ‘Protection From (Alignment)’ spells render the person under them immune to possession”

    Theres no prep time so he would not have it on him already, he also does not know Kains alignment, and before you say it Kain is not necessarily evil, he could be chaotic neutral even and Tam does not know it either. Your also argueing it like Tam knows Kain or any of the vampires could do this….

    “Mind Blank (An absolute must-have for any high-level mage) does it too.
    Tam would be crazy not to have a Contingent Celerity on him at all times too. Because D&D magic is ridiculous.”

    Mind blank is useless because apparently Tam being a lich is already immune to mind affecting powers?

    As for Celerity, it sounds just rife with game play mechanics, i would need some explanation of what it does in reality.

    “Also… no mention of Control Undead”

    I know Kain does but I am also sure pretty much all vamps in this thread have resistance to being controlled or are outright immune. Either that or they have high will power.

    So in conclusion he would still be vulnerable to Kain soul puppeteer him unless he just happens to guess Kains alignment whatever it is and then has time to cast it, he kind of has other issues to deal with considering Kain is not hte only opponent, he may also have other spells on his priority list.

    Also, DnD mages apparently need “concentration” , I like to know how Tam can concentrate to cast spells if hes being teleported next to and attacked, or TKed around like a rag doll at the very least.

    @

    “Without some kind of defense magic users can get into your mind with a spell like that and do all kinds of stuff to you.”

    Reading that though, she seemed to mildly push someone in a direction, she did not dominate them like some sort of mindless drone like Marcus in LoK can do and that Kain can do now. Has someone with mind powers equivalent to dominating a human completely actually viciously attacked her mind? And I mean an enemy, not Dresden sparring, someone who wants to cause her harm and her no selling it.

    She also seems not as adept at mind power, as Dresden himself says she botched her own job.

    “And moderation is up. Post #36 for some of Pandora other form is capable of.”

    So what is Hope form? how does it work, when does she transform into it etc, there must be reasons why shes not in that form all the time, and it sounds like she was tapping into the “purity” of her friends. Also the can shows her struggling with Blight but nothing more.

    As for nuclear force, hard to discern what they mean, unless the creature has radioactive energy on its claws, either that or its hyperbole. The scan is hard to discern.

    “Really? Pulling blood from a helpless victim to kill them doesn’t seem bad to you? I know you’ve read some his quotes about his powers.”

    Kain drinks blood, its no more evil than a human eating an animal. I think labeling that as evil is extreme in any case.

    “Also nevermind, she can see a lot more then just your sins now”

    Seems to see peoples tragedies, its hard to discern how long this takes her to put together as time in the scans is not clear, whether its likely she can do this with vamps striking at her is not clear. But it seems she may be able to learn about Kain getting murdered in an alleway or resurrected by Mortanius.

    “Is he resistant to being blinded of deafened?”

    Blindness? I would say so, as I said he can percieve the Elder God with Raziels last gift, which was not of this plane, it excisted in an alternate realm suggesting he perceives things eyond his material eyes, as for deafness, no I dont think so. Of course, he would just dematerilise in mist form and come back against all within the blink of an eye.

    “One he didn’t know what it was or where it was coming from”

    Well unfortunatly for the idiot who fired it, he shouted at the vampire, giving it a location. Arrows are also not exactly the peak of speed…even if you can catch an arrow or bullet, Kain is a lot bigger and harder to stop.

    “The place she went to is what caused those things to be souless. ”

    I would like some descriptions on what the place is please so I can understand its nature, then how the souls work in the universe. The source itself is essentially just the stranger (is that the guy?) making a claim about how she needs some defenses, like I said, its not equivalent to a soul devouring entity eating her soul.

    “So even if something like inspire hate could get through her defense she can break both herself and other free without an incantation.”

    If shes already inspired with hate for her people though and wants to kill them why would she even consider that shes being controlled or to even protect her friends who could also be coming to kill her? That is the nature of inspire hate, it does not bind you in any way like the binding in your scan, it twists your emotions. She simply feels “hate” for her friends, and so has no motive to protect them.

    “She has hurt both.”

    With miner damage though right? I mean she flings a knife into his hand and only by virtue of it being able to pierce “divine” flesh as a special property can it pierce him, Kain is not “divine” per say, hes not made up of the same stuff as spectre so it will not necessarily affect him, plus, if she is going to waste time throwing knives at Kain thats only for his advantage isnt it really.

    “Also would that leave Kain weaker and more susceptible to any of the others since his body is left. Team mage has the ability to see stuff like souls and Pandora was trained to actually destroy things like that.”

    Kains actually has been struck by the reaver without harm so he has a sturdy soul defense, he has also been hit by the wraith blade. Both weapons are designed to devour souls yet cannot do so to Kain. It is also Kains very nature “to survive” in the words of the story writer and developer of the games.

    But yes, if Kain inserts his soul into Tam, assuming his team are not suddenly overcame by Tam attacking them all of a sudden and assuming they somehoe sense Kain is doing somethlng like this then his body is empty, however not defensless, obviously his body is still damn strong and he gets the repel shield atuomatically cast when he uses spells that take his concentration away from his body like mind control and spirit wrack.

    So kain would be somewhat protected from them. He can leave the body at any time if he feels in danger anyway, which funnily enough causes the host body to disintegrate completely…..

    “Pandora, with with just a gestures pushed a hole into a mountain”

    Handy but burrowing into the earth does not seem to be particularly useful in a battle? She must have better things she could be doing?

  50. Limbo Lowk April 18, 2015 at 11:23 am -      #50

    “Reading that though, she seemed to mildly push someone in a direction, she did not dominate them”

    That becasue she didn’t want to dominate them. She just wanted to make them a scared enough not to do drugs. But as it happen she did lasting damage to thier psyche then intended.

    To quote Ghost Story“If you beat someone’s defenses, you could do a lot of things to them, and precious few of them were good.”
    and
    “But outside of practice, that thought could just as easily be something more like, “Put your gun into your mouth and pull the trigger.”
    ===
    “Has someone with mind powers equivalent to dominating a human completely actually viciously attacked her mind? And I mean an enemy, not Dresden sparring, someone who wants to cause her harm and her no selling it.”

    Yes the corpsetaker, she tried to get take her over but Molly was able to hold her off. Corpsy was the reason Dresden himself realized he needed more practice himself because she nearly broke through his defense.

    Unless he has some way of actually breaking through the mental defense specifically put in placed to defend against attacks of the nature she should be fine. She held off people both friend and foe who tried to bulldoze through their defenses and held her own.
    ===
    “She also seems not as adept at mind power, as Dresden himself says she botched her own job.”

    I think you missed the part where I noted she was an apprentice at the time. Actually a little less then that. She actually had a pretty modest talent, she just hadn’t been educated in proper usage and control. Like years before current, where she’s got a power boost.
    Not to mention breaking someone mind seem like a good ability to have in a fight. All she has to do is not be careful with her spells. Suddenly a sleep spell becomes a mind wreaking spell. That sounds like an advantage in at least a scenario like a duel.
    ===
    “So what is Hope form?”

    She is hope, its basically like a true form thing. She pandora, she opened the box, all that was left was hope blahblahblah.
    ===
    “there must be reasons why shes not in that form all the time”

    Probably because not every situation calls for it. It’s a power boost and sometimes it how she wants things to play don’t require it.
    She uses it pretty often since she learned she could do it.
    ===
    “and it sounds like she was tapping into the “purity” of her friends.”

    lol, Constantine pure. HA! One of his inner bad side actually turned out to be a better guy then him. Like literally it physically manifested and actually did more by his firends then the real one did.
    Anyway, Actually she can feel the hope, terror, happiness, etc and all that stuff in anyone really. Pretty much if Kain or any of the others in the match have ever feel hope or happiness or anything like it basically is adding power to the already powerful person.
    ===
    “As for nuclear force, hard to discern what they mean”

    The claw attacking him streaking energy.
    ===
    “Kain drinks blood, its no more evil than a human eating an animal. I think labeling that as evil is extreme in any case.”

    Taking delight in forcing people to kill their friends.
    Purposely drawing out peoples death just for the fear effect.
    And enjoying the damage does to people.
    Bad is throwing a rock at a puppy. Kain is just downright sadistic.
    ===
    “Seems to see peoples tragedies”

    Except it is clearly not limited to that. Throwing a rock to make friends isn’t a tragedy. That just kids being assholes. Discovering a cure isn’t one either. She is seeing beyond just tragedies. Like she said she just seeing what makes them them. Be it the good bad virtue or sin.
    ===
    ” Of course, he would just dematerilise in mist form and come back against all within the blink of an eye.”

    And be thrown tossed around by pandora.
    ===
    “even if you can catch an arrow or bullet, Kain is a lot bigger and harder to stop.”

    He doesn’t weigh that much. Pandora pushed a mountain side apart. Reverted not just a vamp from mist form, learned to kill spirits, took out intangible manifestation of the seven sins, split evil from its host. Not to mention the magical equivalent of nuke level power to draw on.
    No matter what form he takes Pandora has some means of still attacking or repelling him.
    ===
    ” he shouted at the vampire, giving it a location”

    Nevermind the echo, he still didn’t know what was coming at him beforehand. Meaning he had to both process and react to it as it was already coming.
    ===
    “If shes already inspired with hate for her people though and wants to kill them why would she even consider that shes being controlled”

    Because she can feel them remember. Besides that she has no grievance against her her team. This is a woman who took all the hatered and crap like that into her and remained the same. For humanities sake. If anything all Kain would be doing is making her angrier at the creatures of the night. One of which is a sadistic badass vampire lord.
    ===
    “That is the nature of inspire hate, it does not bind you in any way like the binding in your scan, it twists your emotions.”

    But she can use that hate to power counters.
    Dispelling magic is within her abilities as well
    i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd485/infamousColeMacgrath/DC/Pandora/Pandorastopsamagicpunch1_zpsc99e4be9.jpg
    i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd485/infamousColeMacgrath/DC/Pandora/Pandorastopsamagicpunch2_zps86e9a144.jpg
    ===
    “Handy but burrowing into the earth does not seem to be particularly useful in a battle?”

    She pushed it apart and It lead all the way to the center of the mountain.Takes a lot of force to push a that much earth apart.
    ===
    “With miner damage though right?”

    Actually she beat Blight
    i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd485/infamousColeMacgrath/DC/Pandora/-015_zpsgqwcjn2o.jpg
    ===
    “I mean she flings a knife into his hand and only by virtue of it being able to pierce “divine” flesh as a special property can it pierce him”

    It’s not because he is divine. It says “even” as in ‘this knife can cut through tomatoes, Acorns, EVEN other knives’. It even cuts into divine flesh. It’s one of her basic means of a attack. She channels her power through her weapons. That’s why her handguns and other assortment of weaponry can harm and kill stuff like demons, vampires, monsters, spirits, intangibles etc etc. Being that either can be to durable or untouchable against non-supercharged weaponry.
    ===
    “Kains very nature “to survive””

    lol he’s like the rest of the Trinity of Sin.
    What was Kain’s overall goal if you don’t mind me asking?
    ===
    Just setting a reminder in case I forget. I think Pandora can go intangible and phase through stuff.

  51. Zazax April 18, 2015 at 12:01 pm -      #51

    “Theres no prep time so he would not have it on him already”
    I have no idea what Tam’s equipment consists of, but the Protection spells are fairly common spells to get duplicated with equipment, at least at mid levels. They’re usually replaced by Mind Blank later, though.

    “he also does not know Kains alignment, and before you say it Kain is not necessarily evil, he could be chaotic neutral even and Tam does not know it either.”
    Doesn’t matter. Unless newer editions have changed it, the Protection From Alignment spells protect against that sort of thing against anything, not just from that alignment. It’s the armor and save bonuses that only apply to that alignment.
    www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Protection_from_Evil
    Note the last line of the third paragraph.

    “Mind blank is useless because apparently Tam being a lich is already immune to mind affecting powers?”
    Not useless, just a bit less important. Mind Blank also protects against scrying and other forms of divination, which Undead intrinsic immunity does not. This is fairly useless at low or even sometimes mid levels, but is can be crucial at high levels.

    “As for Celerity, it sounds just rife with game play mechanics, i would need some explanation of what it does in reality.”
    In fluff you apparently ‘borrow’ time from the future to do more in the present than you otherwise should be able to do. There’s a brief snippet on page 105 of this, under ‘Lesser Celerity’
    tcdftp.drshnaps.com/Kojiro/Players%20Handbook%20II-OEF.pdf
    Note that it has Lesser, normal, and Greater versions, so take your pick.

    “I know Kain does but I am also sure pretty much all vamps in this thread have resistance to being controlled or are outright immune. Either that or they have high will power.”
    Very well. Undeath to Death it is.

    “So in conclusion he would still be vulnerable to Kain soul puppeteer him unless he just happens to guess Kains alignment whatever it is and then has time to cast it, he kind of has other issues to deal with considering Kain is not hte only opponent, he may also have other spells on his priority list.”
    Well, Celerity into Time Stop gives him all the time he needs to do whatever he has to. And the other stuff addressed above.

    “Also, DnD mages apparently need “concentration” , I like to know how Tam can concentrate to cast spells if hes being teleported next to and attacked, or TKed around like a rag doll at the very least.”
    If a caster is being distracted by something they need to make a Concentration check (roll a dice, add their skills ranks/ability modifier/etc, try to beat a certain number) or lose their spell. The number you have to beat for ‘extraordinarily violent motion’, the worst of its category, is 20, which you can make even with no ranks in the Concentration Skill at level 1. It should be absolutely trivial for an Epic-level character (who can easily have so many ranks in the skill it’s literally impossible for him to fail the check unless you’re running Critical Fail rules) like Tam to make it.

    Unfortunately, this is all for 3rd edition, so it’s probably no longer relevant. Don’t have the experience with newer editions that I do with 3rd, so I can’t argue for/against them with authority.

  52. Friendlysociopath April 18, 2015 at 12:36 pm -      #52

    Don’t have the experience with newer editions that I do with 3rd, so I can’t argue for/against them with authority.

    I’ve got the Players Handbook and Dungeon Master Guide for 5e- but I don’t think they actually have the epic characters for the new edition (Elminster, Khelbun, Manshoon, etc.) so would Tam even be restricted to 5e rules when he doesn’t have an incarnation in that edition?

  53. Kitten Lord April 18, 2015 at 3:27 pm -      #53

    @Lowk

    “she should be fine. She held off people both friend and foe who tried to bulldoze through their defenses and held her own.”

    Fair enough, Kain cannot do any better than mind control humans, which if she can resist then thats a feat that should make her able to resist. So molly should be fine.

    “I think you missed the part where I noted she was an apprentice at the time”

    So shes better now then?

    “It’s a power boost and sometimes it how she wants things to play don’t require it.”

    Looks like she could have done with it while being thrashed by giant women, and that wrestler guy was making sport of her until she blinded him. Did she not know about it on those occasions?

    “Taking delight in forcing people to kill their friends.
    Purposely drawing out peoples death just for the fear effect.
    And enjoying the damage does to people.
    Bad is throwing a rock at a puppy. Kain is just downright sadistic.”

    That was Kain in Blood omen, Kain since becoming an Elder has been pushed closer to being the savior of Nosgoth. Also note he is refering to his opponents which in basically every showing are at best knights who go around butchering for lulz, often lesser vampire and mosto f the game its undead/demons….

    “Except it is clearly not limited to that”

    If not to that, it does not seem like the “I now know every power you have and how you use them” which it would have to be to be useful.

    “He doesn’t weigh that much. Pandora pushed a mountain side apart. ”

    So she would somehow have to choose out of her many spells so far in under .2 of a second as hes coming down on her just to survive. I have to see that from her, how do you know she would not impulsively put up her force barrier assuming she sees him coming? only ofr him to dispel it with his sword and cut through her, using magic to burrow through a mountain is not exactly her “signature” move.

    “he still didn’t know what was coming at him beforehand.”

    Doesnt this vampire have any sort of enhanced senses beyond a humans then? The scan shows us the arrow making a sound before the next panel which shows it travelling, during this entire time this hunter somehow had the time to shout at Bennet, he had “some” time, to at the very least turn around to face this arrow and assuming hes faced an arrow before the sound previously may have alerted him, hence why I ask if he has better hearing than a human.

    “Because she can feel them remember. Besides that she has no grievance against her her team. ”

    But they will be full of hate as well if within the spells radius. The Conflict Reaver does the same thing, only it does not inspire hate but just makes conflict. The end result is the same. Kains enemies attack each other. He can do it to the Sarafan who are a brotherhood of knights who pledge their lives to fight vampires to extinction, and despite the vampire lord before them will kill their friends when this power is released so I dont think the fact shes generally a good person will save her.

    “But she can use that hate to power counters.
    Dispelling magic is within her abilities as well”

    Well before you showed me her rage allowed her to stop a bind, but this spell merely affects her emotions, if shes made to “want” to harm her friends and see them as enemies and more so, they want to harm her they could suddenly be at eachothers throats. Even if she can somehow dispel it, and assuming she gets past the “want” to harm her friends they could already be hitting her, Kains power could do them a lot of damage especially giving both himself and the vamps an opening to go “ham” themselves.

    “She pushed it apart and It lead all the way to the center of the mountain.Takes a lot of force to push a that much earth apart.”

    It depends, on time, the scans do not suggest she got through the whole mountain in seconds.

    “Actually she beat Blight”

    Looks like she kicked him out of his host.

    “Being that either can be to durable or untouchable against non-supercharged weaponry.”

    Right but I would still like to see her do more impressive damage, smashing through a tank, blowing up a building, cutting through someone super durable with a weapon.

    “What was Kain’s overall goal if you don’t mind me asking?”

    Restore vampire rule, the original rule to the pillars of Nosgoth. You see, humans are weak, corruptible but they overthrew previous vampires and took over the pillars;

    fc06.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2011/120/f/7/pillars_of_nosgoth_by_convalise-d3f90zd.jpg

    These pillars were the prison for the Hylden and were also connected to the planets survival, the more the pillars rotted/broke the more messed up the world became. With mortals ruling over the pillars they were weaker, they were designed for vampires by vampires so he wanted that back.

    At the end of the series he became the first, and the “linch pin” of the pillars, the Balance Guardian.

    Ill be honest its hard to be impressed by Pandora because of the early scans you gave me she was being bullied by some sort of wrestler who had time to grapple her, if she gives Kain half that chance shes doomed, same with all the vamps. Same with the giant women thumping her, those things look like they should have been obvious to fight but she got trounced, she must have some CIS involved….

    Maybe shes indecisive?

    @zazax

    “Note the last line of the third paragraph.”

    Fair enough. Sounds like something Kain would have to dispel to get through.

    It also says;

    “Arcane Material Component: A little powdered silver with which you trace a 3-foot -diameter circle on the floor (or ground) around the creature to be warded.”

    Sounds like it would be useless in this fight if he has to do that to cast the spell….

    “Note that it has Lesser, normal, and Greater versions, so take your pick.”

    It says it dazes the user after, which would be fatal here me thinks.

    “If a caster is being distracted by something they need to make a Concentration check (roll a dice, add their skills ranks/ability modifier/etc, try to beat a certain number) or lose their spell. The number you have to beat for ‘extraordinarily violent motion’, the worst of its category, is 20, which you can make even with no ranks in the Concentration Skill at level 1. It should be absolutely trivial for an Epic-level character (who can easily have so many ranks in the skill it’s literally impossible for him to fail the check unless you’re running Critical Fail rules) like Tam to make it.”

    This sounds like one of those “steeped” in game play things again, in the books I recall Tam being kicked by someone and it broke his spell casting. I am pretty sure being launched with nearly 200 tons of force, which should launch him through the atmosphere and into space like a rocket if he weighs little more than a human male would be enough to stop him from casting ,especially if hes burning from the heat due to friction as well…

    I do not know what they call “violent motion” but thats a bit “extra extra extra” extraordinary.

  54. Friendlysociopath April 18, 2015 at 5:43 pm -      #54

    So rampant love of Kain aside; what do the others bring to the table? I know Castlevania Dracula and Dragonborn both bring time slows/stops; I know nothing about Lestat.

    This sounds like one of those “steeped” in game play things again

    It is, in none of the novels I’ve read have D&D Mages been able to cast while being actively hit or otherwise moved- granted, I have not read that many.

  55. Kitten Lord April 18, 2015 at 5:56 pm -      #55

    I do not know Lestat either.

    Dragonborn;

    I would say hes the weakest of the three I know, I cannot really think of anything especially useful that he brings to the table being a vampire, if anything I think hes probably been shoe horned in because it was hard to think of another vamp at this league.

    Its essentially just the dragonborn in this thread, the vampire part is essentially just a sugar coating, I mean his vampire form was never especially impressive to me.

    That leaves us mostly with his dragon shouts, time slow being the most interesting. Unrelenting force could help keep up the mitigation but if Lowk thinks any or all of the mages can keep up with Kain and teleportation and fast flight then I see him just being left behind somewhere while the others blitz around the battlefield.

    Dracula

    Dracula is a lot like Kain in most ways, but he has some unique factors such as frost powers. He has the ability to freeze with his void sword. I am most interested in him impaling Pandora or maybe Tam and freezing them solid, that should nullify Pandora coming back until the vamps can finish her properly if thats not enough and stop Tam from casting anything if they need to find his phylactory.

    other than that, I see him teleporting a lot and puting up the same sort of constant pressure as Kain, meaning they cant just focus him. I hope lestat is at least as good as Kain and Dracula to support the lack of power in Dragonborn.

  56. Neon Lord April 18, 2015 at 6:59 pm -      #56

    “I’ve got the Players Handbook and Dungeon Master Guide for 5e- but I don’t think they actually have the epic characters for the new edition (Elminster, Khelbun, Manshoon, etc.) so would Tam even be restricted to 5e rules when he doesn’t have an incarnation in that edition?”

    I really think gameplay stats should be used more of as a guide, with novel feats taking higher priority and being the main source of info. In the extract posted somewhere above, there’s a bit where it says Tam can’t cast anything because he’s getting hammered too fast.

  57. Kitten Lord April 18, 2015 at 7:06 pm -      #57

    I found a quote Rookie posted on another forum, he was fighting someone called Maric or something. Rookie mind posting that here? Where Tam gets outmanouvered by this man who kicks him onto a magic chair and seals him there?

  58. Limbo Lowk April 18, 2015 at 8:19 pm -      #58

    “So shes better now then?”
    -p
    Yeah, thanks to years plus training. Now she is able to affect multiple people at one. Also preform more precise actions like messing with memories and removing foreign presences out of someone’s. All without the extra damage like she cause when she was younger and without the expected damage that could have happened.

    Speaking of Molly she uses her illusions for more then just concealing. She can create various other sensory illusions like visual and auditory constructs(like a hologram) from subtle to not so subtle. One her aquired tastes is using the ability to easily trick other into attacking themselves.
    They didn’t even know I was there.”

    “Molly,” I said gently, “what did you do?”

    “An illusion. A simple one. I made the bag of gold look like a gun. The cop drew his weapon and shot him. But the servitor lived long enough to break the cop’s neck.” She held up a pair of fingers. “Twofer. For one little illusion.”

    I swallowed. I couldn’t speak.

    Her voice slowly gained volume. “There have been others like that. I mean, God, they make it simple. You just need an opportunity and the right little nudge at the right time. Green traffic light instead of a red one. Put a knife in someone’s hand. Or a wedding ring on one finger. Add a spot of blood to someone’s collar. They’re animals. They tear into one another like animals.””
    Ghost Story

    She could make Kain look like her or one of her other team mates so that the vamps side attacks him as well.
    ===
    “Looks like she could have done with it while being thrashed by giant women, and that wrestler guy was making sport of her until she blinded him.”

    The first time she didn’t know about it. The other was after she had been weakened and momentarily lost her immortality.
    =
    “So she would somehow have to choose out of her many spells so far in under .2 of a second as hes coming down on her just to survive. I have to see that from her, how do you know she would not impulsively put up her force barrier assuming she sees him coming?”

    Or she teleport behind him. They could have a teleport off.
    She only seems to go with a barrier when defending against powerful projectile attacks.
    She could just dodge or parry. She does have millennias worth of fighting experience. And has dodged superman.
    Gwen normally relies on barriers but she often makes them in a way that if broken it push the attack away. It takes the blow for her.
    ===
    “I now know every power you have and how you use them”

    Its a I can read your life like a ebook power. Still useful, if not to know about specific abilities at least it’d be good to know how you operate.
    ===
    “this vampire have any sort of enhanced senses beyond a humans then?”

    Something invovling hiw they mist. I don’t recall much more then that. Smell maybe but he was in gotham, which is not particularly know for it absence of “smell”.
    ===
    “some” time, to at the very least turn around to face this arrow”

    Regardless he would’ve need the reaction time to grab the arrow. It wasn’t a oh I know what is coming it moment. The ability to move to snatch an arrow is still a feat for reflexes at the least even if you take away the reaction.
    ===
    “He can do it to the Sarafan who are a brotherhood of knights who pledge their lives to fight vampires to extinction, and despite the vampire lord before them will kill their friends when this power is released so I dont think the fact shes generally a good person will save her.”

    None of which have had the a worlds worth of a hatred and etc pulled into them and came out fine.
    ===
    “like she kicked him out of his host.”

    That was her assaulting him until he was unable to maintain his power. Blight turned out to be the boy. Blight If she killed the boy the blight persona wouldn’t be able the. He is to evil what Pandora is to all the good stuff.
    ===
    “bullied by some sort of wrestler”

    He is almost as old as Pandora and his favorite hobby is war and conflict. In her first encounter she wasn’t trying to beat him. She just wanted him to voluntarily open the box. The second she had been weakened before hand.
    Giganta like I mentioned is a wonder woman villain so she is actually pretty powerful. She takes on a hypersonic, warrior demigod, who wrestle people that lift aircraft carriers. Besides that Pandora wanted to help her.
    ===
    “Maybe shes indecisive?”

    She is a nice person on a specific mission that she believed required a certain type of person.
    So the plot and her character was on their side. Kain never had moments like that?
    ===
    Wow. Thats actually a pretty different direction most stories go. So Kain is like the opposite of them.

  59. Zazax April 18, 2015 at 10:02 pm -      #59

    “Sounds like it would be useless in this fight if he has to do that to cast the spell….”
    Actually, reading through my Epic Level Handbook, it appears Tam has a Dark Skull, which makes him constantly surrounded by a permanent Unhallow, which includes the effects of a Magic Circle Against Good, which itself includes the effects of Protection From Good, so he’s got that covered. This also means it’ll protect the rest of his team if they’re within 40 feet.
    www.reality.net/dnd/pdf/DnD%20-%20Epic%20Level%20Handbook%20+%20WE%20-%20OCR.pdf (Page 298 under ‘Possessions’ at the end of his stablock)
    www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Darkskull

    As a sidenote, he also has a Ring of Three Wishes.

    “It says it dazes the user after, which would be fatal here me thinks.”
    That’s why you Celerity into Time Stop. Or into something with which you don’t need another round afterwards, although Time Stop’s still the better bet.

    “This sounds like one of those “steeped” in game play things again, in the books I recall Tam being kicked by someone and it broke his spell casting.”
    Eh, perhaps. I haven’t read a whole lot of D&D novels despite the amount of time I’ve played the game itself.

    “I do not know what they call “violent motion” but thats a bit “extra extra extra” extraordinary.”
    The category below ‘extraordinarily violent’ includes such examples as being tossed around on the deck of a storm-ravaged ship. The only example they give for extraordinarily violent motion itself is an earthquake, but they fail to specify how bad an earthquake.

    However, I will note that Tam is getting an absolute minimum of +30 to any Concentration checks (25 ranks and then +5 from having 20 Charisma, which he applies to Concentration instead of Constitution since he’s Undead), which is half again what he needs to always succeed the hardest motion-related DC in the book. That’s all on the pdf I posted above as well, although it’s kind of buried in the upper half of the statblock. I wouldn’t count him out.

    “I’ve got the Players Handbook and Dungeon Master Guide for 5e- but I don’t think they actually have the epic characters for the new edition (Elminster, Khelbun, Manshoon, etc.) so would Tam even be restricted to 5e rules when he doesn’t have an incarnation in that edition?”
    That’s a good question. I have no idea.

  60. Friendlysociopath April 18, 2015 at 10:16 pm -      #60

    Eh, perhaps. I haven’t read a whole lot of D&D novels despite the amount of time I’ve played the game itself.

    For a character like Tam, Gromph, or Elminster- it’s much MUCH better to try to use novels instead of the game itself as that’s… well, game mechanics.
    Prime example- has Tam ever used Celerity into Time Stop to gain even more time?

    Also, earlier editions of Time Stop weren’t actual timestops, they just sped you up so fast it was as if everyone was standing still; I’ve been meaning to mention that for all D&D matches that spring up.

  61. Zazax April 18, 2015 at 10:41 pm -      #61

    “For a character like Tam, Gromph, or Elminster- it’s much MUCH better to try to use novels instead of the game itself as that’s… well, game mechanics.”
    I suppose, although it’s somewhat irritating that D&D has such a high power ceiling (I maintain that it can take on Magic: The Gathering if it cuts loose), and Wizards is just terrible at bringing it out, or even approaching it.
    Grumble grumble.

    “Also, earlier editions of Time Stop weren’t actual timestops, they just sped you up so fast it was as if everyone was standing still”
    True, although it speeds you up so much that you’re somehow faster than ‘instantaneous’, demonstrated by even instant spells not actually going off until the Time Stop ends, even if you have several ’rounds’ between you finishing casting the spell and the Time Stop ending. That’s either totally nonsensical, effectively an actual time stop, or a big case of A Wizard Did It. Or maybe all three.

  62. Friendlysociopath April 18, 2015 at 10:51 pm -      #62

    (I maintain that it can take on Magic: The Gathering if it cuts loose)

    I dunno, most of the best stuff they have is that rule-twisting we were talking about; stuff that doesn’t really exist. Then again, Magic is even harder to judge from mechanics for the big spells.

    That’s either totally nonsensical, effectively an actual time stop, or a big case of A Wizard Did It. Or maybe all three.

    Effectively it achieves the same result of a Time Stop; complete freedom from enemy action.
    In practice- it is just a massive self-buff, not an AoE debuff; although as of 5e they actually turned it into a “real time stop” vs “effectively a time stop”, so it’s kind of a moot point except for older characters.

    I suppose

    It’s not all bad- in game fireball just hurts, in novels Elminster leaves a giant field-wide crater when he uses it.

  63. Zazax April 19, 2015 at 12:17 am -      #63

    “I dunno, most of the best stuff they have is that rule-twisting we were talking about; stuff that doesn’t really exist.”
    I wouldn’t say that (well, again, not sure about the newer editions which have nerfed a bunch of stuff, but 3rd in all its totally broken glory at least). Sure, stuff like some of the more ridiculous Theoretical Optimization like Pun-Pun (the omnipotent level 1 kobold) or Chuck E. Cheese (the guy who can, in short bursts, run faster than light) relies on sometimes-‘creative’ use of rules, but there’s plenty of totally broken things even in the core rulebooks, and even without looking at some the more crazy things you can do by mixing a spell or two just using the rules totally RAW.
    For example, I’ve often wondered how MtG would react to Antimagic Fields, Null Magic Zones, and other things of that nature.

    Not claiming it’d *win*, per se, but it could at least put up a fight, which is more than most ‘verses can say.

  64. Kitten Lord April 19, 2015 at 1:50 pm -      #64

    @Lowk

    “She could make Kain look like her or one of her other team mates so that the vamps side attacks him as well.”

    Maybe, dont forget though that vampires sense blood and Kains would be a lot weaker than the actual, fleshier beings such as Pandora, maybe make him look like Tam instead who is also undead? Can she do that? based on your quotes she made relatively small, inanimate objects look different but has she made moving, living beings look different? Also, I think it would be limited, because chances are Kain will be on the attack, potentially even attacking Molly herself so if two mollies are going at it, or if it looks like a clone from the mage team is attacking a mage the other vamps would just have to fight someone else if they cant decide who is real.

    “The first time she didn’t know about it. The other was after she had been weakened and momentarily lost her immortality.”

    I take it she was badly weakened? just seems to me like Pandora has a problem with fighting on the fly, gives her opponents time to act sort of thing, as is the case in both of those examples you gave me.

    “Or she teleport behind him. They could have a teleport off.”

    This is possible, they could be in a constant state of teleportation but how do you know she will choose to do that? looks to me like she would either do that, try and make a protective barrier or fire an energy blast. Any one of those choices could end in her death with teleport being the only one that could save her, its like a roulette at the moment. She didnt teleport away from Giganta or the wrestler. She also used speed to catch up with Benette, so she cant be as much an avid teleporter as say, Kain.

    “Gwen normally relies on barriers but she often makes them in a way that if broken it push the attack away. It takes the blow for her.”

    Thats hte point of barriers anyway but Kains sword dispels then, something nobody would know would happen when he strikes them. Gwen could have faith in her barrier stopping Kain, who does not look especially large or strong only to have his sword go straight through her.

    “None of which have had the a worlds worth of a hatred and etc pulled into them and came out fine.”

    Having the worlds hatred in you like your a container and having your own emotions changed are two different things. Its proven from the above scans youve shown me she feels emotions, even potentially negative ones like rage.

    “Giganta like I mentioned is a wonder woman villain so she is actually pretty powerful.”

    Yeah but the point I am trying to make is regardless of her goals, she could have teleported or “outsped” either of those characters? Giaganta even gave her an opportunity after that thumping while she was crawling loose, can she not teleport after taking any damage I wonder? Maybe the more shes injured, the less power she has…..

    “Wow. Thats actually a pretty different direction most stories go. So Kain is like the opposite of them.”

    Sorry the opposite of whom?

    Another line of reasoning

    So we have been discussing some of the powers they have but I am wondering what the characters themselves actually do as a signature. What do they do almost every time their in a fight? For example Pandora “can” blind her enemies apparently but did not use it on blight or Giganta, I am sure theres others shes not used it on as well, so maybe she wont think of doing it here, same with teleport. I have seen one scan of her doing it, but other than that there looks like theres fights where she has not.

    Gwen in the vids I have seen uses purely energy constructs, she protects herself with a shield and relies on that, possibly naively so to survive. Even things that are slowly falling towards her that she should probably be able to avoid (the toppling trucks the alien pushes towards her being one example) she tries to shield against, this could be her downfall.

    Tam still seems a bit slow to me, but it seems as a base hes a necromancer/lich sort of character? I have only seen a few quotes from him, one has him chaseing after a man in a catacombs and his first action is to raise the dead and in his other showing in this thread he just gets hit by tons of spells, even when it does some damage to him so hes not indestructalbe nor necessarily wise enough to avoid, so maybe hubris? I see him the same way I do Dragonborn, their both sort of “spare parts” that are outdone by superior members of their team.

    Molly seems to like misdirection from what I have read so far. Clones, illusions etc.

    Kain is a battle-mage as Ammo calls him, he uses what he needs and combines magic and physical prowess in equel measure, but his signature moves are his teleportation, sword and TK. The last two he can use at the same time, one in each hand.

    Ill let others fill in the blanks for the rest of the characters.

    Outset of the fight

    This is my view so far on the fight;

    I think its worth noting that ALL the characters may not act straight away, possibly foolishly, BankGambling gives its fighters “basic” information, the sides both likely know their fighting “vampires” or “mages” respectfully but not their whole power sets, so who here is rash? Gwen seems young, maybe she will go forwards, Pandora however seems wise, Molly looks like she comes in between. Training combined with a willful nature, just from what I read here, I dont know the character tbh. Tam is odd, hes an old, potentially patient Lich but in combat he takes too many risks, lots of hits and seems to rush too much, I would have thought he would be wiser than he seems to be in the few quotes I have read.

    on Team vampire, I voiced before that Dracula in LoS seems to be more of a warrior than a schemer, purely, Dragonborn is characterless right? You choose how he acts, Kain is calculating, I can see Kain teleporting as far as he can while still keeping a good view of the fight before he commits his “hand”, he has a powerful slew of abilities but I cant see him just instantly rushing in, if this was Blood omen Kain he would but as an Elder, he wants to “know” but at the same time hes faced a ton of mages before, they have all tried to get one over on him with their magic, especially moebius so I think he would start off with his signature moves like TK on eahc of them, since it costs him very little time or effort to test them, the ones who survive will be the ones he watches, by teleporting off and observing for a moment or so.

    He will likely “buff up”, this means casting slow time and “repel”, slow time is an obvious choice in any combat and repel is a must, hes an intelligent being and if he knows hes faceing mages, a shield that reflects spells is obvious. Then I suspect he would go in with his favourite tactic, combining teleport, sword and TK.

    This would likely be in the first 10 seconds, in the same moment Dracula will likely have already teleported forwards and slammed the mage lines who I assume will fly/teleport if they can. If you think of Kains TK starter like a broadside from a galleon, only theres no projectile to dodge, it just hits you, especially when the mages do not know he does this, I think they will either be knocked out, destroyed or, in the case of the faster ones maybe try and project a barrier. Tam I can see getting obliterated or launched to the other side of the battlefield, he may even be disarmed because Kain will see the staff and the wizardy doodads and take it form him.

    I can see Gwen and Dracula meeting first, I cant see how Dracula can lose tbh, she does not seem especially powerful. She seems young, inexperienced, rash, maybe thats just that instance in the cartoon? Ill need more info, but a teleport from the rear, combined with some sword and claws action and I see her going down.

    At this stage Kain would have teleported, now Kain can do about 5+ teleports in a single second. hence how I know each opponent would have to not only react, but react with a powerful counter to being chopped in half WHILE under a time slow. Assuming, and this is a big assumption their quick enough to turn around and face Kain who may have teleported behind them (again, if they have the senses to even do this) or above them (Kain can fight in the air, and float) they are suddenly assaulted instantly by a soul devouring blade that does a ton of stuff AND possibly a barrage of 200+ ton TK blasts at their face….

    If they choose a magic barrier to protect, the dispel on the balance emblem allows the sword to go straight through, killing the mage. If they choose teleport, they may survive. If they choose a magic blast to try and injure/knock Kain away, their dead, because the repel shield will just reflect it at them and Kain still flows through with his attack…..

    If they teleport, rinse and repeat unless Kain gets bored and starts using more AoE, like blood shower, reaver explosions, lighting storms (not normal lightning, powerful enough to blow men, demons etc to piecies on strike) and more.

    Questions to be answered

    Can they survive this onslaught? I ask because none of them can necessarily “know” what is coming at them, they do not know its a bloody good idea to shield themselves from the initial TK, because they do not know what Kains quick hand wave could mean, or how much force they need to put in their barrier if they decide to do one. Same with Kains dispels and repel shields, they do not necesserily know what that “repel” field is, for all they know its a forcefield and they may think they have faced greater fields than that and just blast it….

    Same with Kain but the reason I ask especially for mages is because I know Kain can tank a hit, he has crazy durability, regen and magic resistances and has no sold soul attacks and mind rape to boot.

  65. Kitten Lord April 19, 2015 at 2:08 pm -      #65

    Just a funny note to add, with a TK force of around 160-200 tons, Kain hitting you with it is like hes beating you with a blue whale….

    Also add, his TK burns, sets light to flammables. So the mage team will likely be fighting with less clothes after the first bout…..

  66. Klondike Bar April 19, 2015 at 4:18 pm -      #66

    Doesn’t the Dragonborn in Vampire lord form have an ability that works like time slow? It was supernatural reflexes iirc. This could maybe help him reach the front lines quickly. Also he does have a strong tk grip in that form.

  67. Limbo Lowk April 19, 2015 at 7:23 pm -      #67

    I hate when the internet eats my post.
    ===
    “Maybe, dont forget though that vampires sense blood”

    She used her veils against vamps before. She knows how to cover senses. Thomas happens to be one and he can even sense people through their emotions.
    “I reached into the trash can by the door, took out an empty motor oil can, and tossed it into the least cluttered corner of the workshop. It bounced off something in midair, and Molly let out a soft yelp, appearing there a moment later, rubbing a hand to her hip.

    “Where’d she come from?” Thomas demanded crossly.

    “What did I miss?” Molly demanded, her tone faintly offended. “I had all the senses covered. Even Thomas didn’t know I was there.”

    “You didn’t miss anything,” I said. “I just know how you think, grasshopper.”

    -Small Favor
    ===
    “Can she do that? based on your quotes she made relatively small, inanimate objects look different but has she made moving, living beings look different? ”

    Yeah she made a motorcycle look like it had thrown across a parking lot without it having even moved at all with realistic sounds and all while maintaining several other illusions.
    My jaw dropped open. I mean, I had known the kid was good with illusions, but Hell’s bells. I might have been able to do one of the illusions Molly had just wrought. Once, I had managed two, under all kinds of mortal pressure. She had just thrown out six. Simultaneously. And at the drop of a hat, to boot.

    My gast was pretty well flabbered.

    The turtlenecks clearly didn’t know how to react, either. The ones with guns returned fire, and they all scattered for cover. The motorcycle didn’t hit anyone as it tumbled past the group, though the crashing sound it made when it landed was so convincing that it made me doubt my such-as-they-were senses. The guns barked several times as the illusionary Mollys all sought cover behind the snow mounds and cars.”

    -Ghost Story

    She has also blinded someone by veiling the entire room
    ‘”She blinded me,” Anastasia said calmly. “And then she hit me.” She lifted the towel and wiped at her nose. Some blood came away, though most of it stayed crusted and brown below one nostril. So they hadn’t been in the standoff for long. Anastasia gave Molly a steady gaze and said, “She hit me like a girl. For goodness’ sake, child, have you had no combat training at all?”

    “There’s been a lot of material to cover,” I growled. “Blinded you?”

    “Not permanently,” Molly said, more sullenly now. She rubbed at the knuckles of her right hand with her left. “I just… kind of veiled everything that wasn’t her.”

    “An unnecessarily complicated way to go about it,” Anastasia said primly.

    “For you, maybe,” Molly said defensively.”

    -Small Favor
    ===
    “just seems to me like Pandora has a problem with fighting on the fly.”

    I think she suffers from what characters like Wolverine do. Unless the threat can actually do something to you they sort of tank through immortality and healing.
    Neither really had the means to kill her and she has been dealing with pain for several thousands of years. She outright told Giganta she couldn’t kill her. Giga ripped her in two. Pandora reaction was to try and help her.
    Seemed sort of equivalent to letting them get off steam so she could actually try reasoning with them. Against threat that could possible beat her she whips out the magic and superpowers and the teleporting. Like she did on the shape-sifter with the immortality killing device.
    ===
    ” with a TK force of around 160-200 tons”

    Gwen tk’d somewhere between 160-240 tons. Wouldn’t that be enough to match his?
    ===
    “looks to me like she would either do that, try and make a protective barrier or fire an energy blast.”

    Not unless he’s trying to fire something at her. She’d most likely try to evade it.
    ===
    “Thats hte point of barriers anyway but Kains sword dispels then”

    Then it may not work on her since hers are basically just constructs rather then anything like a spell or a ward to be dispelled. It isn’t holy either. She does have a legit barrier spell but that’s for making a building sized barrier.
    I tried to see it in action but the camera in the respect thread moved as he did it.
    ===
    “She also used speed to catch up with Benette, so she cant be as much an avid teleporter as say, Kain.”

    Andrew also had no means of actually killing her. Besides being faster then him, what would the purpose of teleporting have been?
    Speaking of Kain’s teleport.
    -The quick can be beat by Gwen defending everyone less maneuverable two.
    Upon catching one of the flame keepers who teleport through dimensions the she realizes you can’t teleport out of her construct that way.(“The Beginning of the End”)
    It is later demonstrated multiple times you can even get in when she puts up a dome around her friends and when she puts up the sustained barrier spell around a house. You break either the construct version or the ward version first.
    Meanwhile you have two spell cast dealing out spell behind protection.

    The other version that seem to be the longer range is really slow compared to pretty much anyone in the match. Plus flashy either when he disappears or reappears.

    Also how far can he teleport. Pandora and Gwen have demonstrated they can teleport others quite a distance. Could they BFR Kain?
    ===
    “Having the worlds hatred in you like your a container and having your own emotions changed are two different things.”

    That was the same stuff that forcibly reality warped the entire planet.
    Other then that the spell she broke I showed does this
    i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd485/infamousColeMacgrath/c1237a01-62ed-41b2-8c3e-132a9877ca33_zpsm9f3pogj.jpg
    she resisted that and broke it.
    Thier is also the box could corrupt even the goodest of good guy just from touching it. That’s the reason superman attacked her and the reason why wonder woman and several heroes around her went wild with hate and greed and etc. She carried it around like it was nothing.

    Also Molly another person who’d be safe from it can sense when someone has messed with someone’s thoughts
    “He nodded. “Molly became concerned sometime yesterday. I asked her to have a look at you while you were sleeping earlier. I apologize for that, but I didn’t know any other way to be sure that someone had tampered with you.”

    I shivered. Ugh. Molly playing in my head. That wasn’t necessarily the prettiest thing to think about.”

    -Small Favor

    And if I recall correctly I think she might be capable of messing with your memories.
    Anyway she should be able to at least run interference in dealing with anything messing with their head.
    ===
    “so who here is rash?”

    If you are refering to the first video I showed that was younger years. She currently either 16 or 30 I think depending on how current incarnation swings.
    Either way Gwen is now normally the thinker and had generally been responsible for trying to keep her cousin and boyfriend from doing rash things. Though She is capable of it, it generally requires something happening to someone close to her. Though that just forces her to get a bit more creative like using time travel or freezing spells.

    Pandora it depends, she waited thousands of years before she finally got fed up with the the evils of the world to try and reverse what she thought the box did. So getting her rash would take sometime. She also seems to manipulate people using her abilities. For good reason but still, it one thing to beat the bad guy into submission; its another to gut punch them with things they regret to get them to do what you wanted.

    Molly was but I think the viscous training she went through after her previous teacher/friend died might have whipped that out of her. If that didn’t having to survive as winter lady where every creature’s nature seems to be ‘backstab you’ might have done it. The feat about tricking people to kill each other was before that though so I suspect that might have been training for the other thing.

    I have No Idea about Tam.
    ===
    ” If they choose a magic blast to try and injure/knock Kain away”

    Gwen normal attack are more green lantern constructs then blast.
    Molly’s the best offensive showing was really hot fire. However elements summoned by magic in Dresden aren’t magic in and of themselves. Basically unless they focus it into some kind of laser beam it’s just really hot fire. Even then you’d only be stopping the will behind it turning the beam into a gout as it hits leave the fire bathing you and the wizard with a bruised ego cause it didn’t happen right.
    ===
    “she tries to shield against, this could be her downfall.”


    1:04 She like her grandmother also absorb attacks
    1:53 she has also has gotten martial art training and got now more acrobatic even while still using her powers so she can dodge or stay maneuverable while using her powers.
    Also a bit of a reaction feat around 2:04 where she moves from behind then around kevin then past him.
    Also some energy draining and going anodite for the either the first or second time.

    And like I mentioned earlier hers is like the barriers he has taken down. It isn’t a spell or a ward. It more like Hardlight.

  68. AbsoluteZero April 19, 2015 at 8:39 pm -      #68

    Greetings Facts! My being here has been some time coming, i’ve finally decided that i’ve lurked long enough, and i’m ready to join the fray. Madness. Whatever y’all call it.

    That said. I -do- know about Lestat. So I’ll put out a bit of information.

    Superhuman Strength – Lestat is capable of extreme acts of physical strength, easily shown to dismember people with his bare hands. However, as the series is not based on the idea of combat, feats of Lestat’s strength are hard to find, and as is common with many of his abilities, it’s hard to define a limit. He simply does things, and then we know he can do them.

    Superhuman Speed – Lestat, and lesser vampires in his universe, are depicted as being able to move casually faster than the human eye can percieve. Lestat himself has been stated as able to cross contenents rapidly to avoid the sunrise. As with all of his abilities, we don’t have specific feats, because the series has never been focused on combat.

    Regeneration – Lestat and other vampires in the vampire chronicles universe, are depicted as being able to regenerate from extreme injuries. Lestat himself survived being poisoned, stabbed repeatedly, thrown into a swamp, and devoured by alligators. Later in the series when he came into his full powers, he faced the light of the sun, and got at best, a light tan.

    Asteral Projection – Lestat has shown himself capable of leaving his body to percieve the world how he sees fit. This ability has absolutely no combative value, and Lestat hates the ability regardless, and wouldn’t use it.

    Flight – Lestat is capable of flying vast distances with little apparent issue, his flight speed has never properly been demonstrated, however he’s been stated as casually flying from America to England to avoid the sun.

    Kill Reflex – This one i’ve named for a lack of a better word. Lestat is capable of killing his enemies with a thought. The result typically ends in ruptured organs, broken bones and crumpled bodies. It could be argued that this ability is a subset of Telekinesis, which he also possesses.

    Telekinesis – Lestat is capable of manipulating physical objects with his mind. He’s never been shown to do this to a living being, unless you classify his kill reflex as a telekinetic ability.

    Telepathy – Lestat has shown himself capable of reading the minds of others, though he’s never shown the ability to breach any placed shields between him, and the thoughts of others.

    Immolation – Lestat is capable of igniting objects, and foes at will. While this ability started as the result of using Kill Reflex on a vampire, it was later re-written to be it’s own seperate ability.

    Body Snatching – Lestat was forced to learn this ability after having his body stolen by a wizard. Since then, he’s not used the ability.

  69. AbsoluteZero April 19, 2015 at 8:42 pm -      #69

    I’d also like to apologise for my poor layouts of information. If anyone would care to tell me how to actually, properly add paragraphs, that’d be fantastic.

  70. Kitten Lord April 20, 2015 at 6:54 am -      #70

    @Lowk

    “She used her veils against vamps before. She knows how to cover senses.”

    Granted, it seems she can based on the quotes however, how does she veil? it seems like that’s just another thing on her list of things to do, make an illusion, veil someones senses, clone herself.

    “Against threat that could possible beat her she whips out the magic and superpowers and the teleporting. Like she did on the shape-sifter with the immortality killing device.”

    Thats the thing though, she does not know what these vamps are capable of from the get go, even if she can sense what they can do given some time her initial moves are in the dark. They do not necessarily appear on first glance anywhere near as threatening as say Giganta girl.

    “Gwen tk’d somewhere between 160-240 tons. Wouldn’t that be enough to match his?”

    In LoK there is no “travel” for TK, so she could try and hit him with it, can I see her tking near to 160 tons please?

    “Then it may not work on her since hers are basically just constructs rather then anything like a spell or a ward”

    Theres a fine line between a construct of magic protection and a shield or ward of magic protection, its essentially just the same thing, a magic barrier.

    “what would the purpose of teleporting have been?”

    Well thats the thing, Kain teleports just because he can, if Pandora only teleports in specific situations, which so far from what I have seen is only one occassion unless I have missed something then it looks like its not the “regular” thing for her to do, she may just try and physically avoid something or, like I said use another move like a barrier or spell.

    “The other version that seem to be the longer range is really slow compared to pretty much anyone in the match. Plus flashy either when he disappears or reappears.”

    Cant really gauge “speed” concerning teleporting for Pandora due to being a comic with no que on the speed, and ive not read anything about the others teleporting, its slower than Draculas regular teleport through granted but it only takes a second or so all the same, about the same time as most of their spells from what I have seen so far and once hes inside their “dome” assuming, again this is what Gwen is going to do off the bat as if she knows what to expect (she doesnt) then the faster teleport can start off.

    Besides her constructs in the video you gave me are pretty crap, they broke almost after every attack on her. One TK blast from Kain and their history unless better feats can be shown.

    “Also how far can he teleport. Pandora and Gwen have demonstrated they can teleport others quite a distance. Could they BFR Kain?”

    Depends on how far they can teleport him, he can as said dimentional teleport, so traveling through one dimension or another suggests he does not traverse physical space at all, so range would be irrelevent, as long as he knows where he is going, which considering they start off in the arena should not be a problem.

    On-screen he teleports between 10-100 meters, in Soul reaver 2 he teleports away from a “region” every time he appears to tell Raziel something, where he goes its unclear, only far enough not to be on screen as the camera pans out.

    “Thier is also the box could corrupt even the goodest of good guy just from touching it. That’s the reason superman attacked her and the reason why wonder woman and several heroes around her went wild with hate and greed and etc. She carried it around like it was nothing.”

    Fair enough, I concede on Pandora being affected by it, it seems like Pandora more than the others could be a better match for Kain one on one in terms of her not being vulnerable to any of his mind hax.

    “Also Molly another person who’d be safe from it can sense when someone has messed with someone’s thoughts”

    Arguable, she also has “emotion” but again that whole thing sounded like it takes time. Your bringing up a lot of things they can do but in no regards to time, they can only do so many actions per second and do not necessarily know whats happening until they have had time to study what the opponent has done.

    “Molly’s the best offensive showing was really hot fire. However elements summoned by magic in Dresden aren’t magic in and of themselves. Basically unless they focus it into some kind of laser beam it’s just really hot fire. Even then you’d only be stopping the will behind it turning the beam into a gout as it hits leave the fire bathing you and the wizard with a bruised ego cause it didn’t happen right.”

    See this is confusing, because how would you know not all magic attacks essentially do the same thing? For example when a mage casts a fire ball, is the fireball considered magic or is it just a ball of hot fire just like your suggesting it is in Dresden files? The repel shield Kain uses “protects” against physical attack and “reflects” magical, in Blood omen it worked on any spell, which included what appear to be fireballs and what not.

    “And like I mentioned earlier hers is like the barriers he has taken down. It isn’t a spell or a ward. It more like Hardlight”

    Hes taken down what is essentially a barrier made of magic, hers are also “barriers” made of magic, I think your reaching here, because although she clearly looks like a green lantern, her constructs are still magical, not exactly the same as a lantern which is a different thing entirely.

    Overall though Gwen seems purely peak human in speed, I have yet to see her teleport as I recall, so she purely moves around with jumps and kicks, maybe some flying but overall slow, she can neither dodge or protect herself from Kain, so I would say shes an easy target, I would need a lot more sources on Gwen showing impressive feats to suggest shes a contender here.

    So far t may as well be Pandora and Molly vs Kain and Dracula, although Pandora still seems the only real threat as shes the only one who “may” be able to react in time to do something if Kain teleports up to her. I still doubt anyone other than maybe Pandora can survive Kains TK popping their heads off. Theres no good Gwen making a “construct” shield in front of her when the TK appears at her throat, same with Molly whos protections I have yet to see.,

    Theres still no true defense against time powers/slows either. Can I see more “reaction” feats for the other characters? some I can see for Pandora are ok, but more would be nice.

    @Zero

    Hey dude, welcome to the pile.

    “Flight – Lestat is capable of flying vast distances with little apparent issue, his flight speed has never properly been demonstrated, however he’s been stated as casually flying from America to England to avoid the sun”

    This bit sounds interesting, it can probably be calculated how fast he can fly if he flew from America to England before sunrise.

    “Kill Reflex – This one i’ve named for a lack of a better word. Lestat is capable of killing his enemies with a thought. The result typically ends in ruptured organs, broken bones and crumpled bodies. It could be argued that this ability is a subset of Telekinesis, which he also possesses.”

    Same with this, if he just “thinks” and can cause major damage to the body, then maybe the mage “shields” and “wards” will come to little use.

  71. Friendlysociopath April 20, 2015 at 8:27 am -      #71

    @Zero
    Welcome

    @Kitten
    This bit sounds interesting, it can probably be calculated how fast he can fly if he flew from America to England before sunrise.

    Depends kind of heavily how close he is to the equator. At the equator the ‘dawn’ moves at 1000mph AFAIK.

  72. AbsoluteZero April 20, 2015 at 11:09 am -      #72

    @Kitten


    ” It seemed as if I saw a vision; for surely this wasn’t from my heart or my mind; I saw a thin emaciated form rise before me; I gritted my teeth as I glared at it, concentrating my malice as if it were a laser, and then I saw the victim rise off his feet and fall to the floor. It had been like a spasm; and then as effortless as shouting. As throwing one’s voice out unseen yet powerful, over a great space. ” Queen Of The Damned, Page 341

    ” In all directions they ran, but that only further inflamed me. I drove them back, the power slamming them into the walls. I aimed for the heart with this invisible tongue and heard the heart when it burst. I turned round and round, directing it carefully and instantly at this one, and that one, and then another as he ran through the doorway, and yet another as he rushed down the corridor, and yet another as he tore the lamp from it’s chains, and hurled it foolishly at me. Into the back rooms of the temple I pursued them, with exhilarating ease through the heaps of gold and silver, tossing them over on their backs as if with long invisible fingers, then clamping those invisible fingers on their arteries until the blood gushed through their bursting flesh. ” Queen Of The Damned, Page 342

    Also, time for a strength feat. It’s rare to find any.

    ” A giant of a man raced at me, eyes bulging as he tried to stop me with a great curved sword. In rage, I snatched the sword from him, and sliced through his neck. Right through the bone the blade went, breaking as it did so, and head and broken blade fell at my feet. ” Queen Of The Damned, Page 342

    I’d also like to bring up that Lestat has stood in the presence of God, and drank the blood of Christ. He’s proven himself utterly resistant to holy effects. He’s also been to Hell itself, in the company of The Devil, and returned.

    Lestat’s major weaknesses in a fight are his vanity, and his almost utter lack of combat experience. Lestat heavily relies on being able to blatantly overpower his victims, and opponents. While this means in a combat situation, he would legitimately open with his best moves, it also means if they fail, he’s useless.

    Unfortunately, I can’t feat his flight speed. The series has never been big on feats of power. And other feats of power can be argued as not being that immense, (Such as Lestat having the raw strength to throw aside The Devil) in the context of the abilities of the figure in question not being known. Lestat is stated to be one of the most powerful vampires in the Vampire Chronicles. It’s stated that he’s gone between countries with relative ease. But that’s all we have to work on. For the most part. There are exceptions, like the above feats.

  73. Limbo Lowk April 20, 2015 at 9:16 pm -      #73

    “Granted, it seems she can based on the quotes however, how does she veil? it seems like that’s just another thing on her list of things to do, make an illusion, veil someones senses, clone herself.”

    She does it all at once now, thats what the feat was showing. Multiple veils and illusions. Molly’s best trait was control, so while she can’t just spam offensive spells, she has gotten pretty good multitasking.
    ===
    “Thats the thing though, she does not know what these vamps are capable of from the get go, even if she can sense what they can do given some time her initial moves are in the dark. They do not necessarily appear on first glance anywhere near as threatening as say Giganta girl”

    The rules about basic knowledge beforehand should cover that. He’s got soul sucking sword filled with dark sorcery. Thats going to set of some red flags.
    Gwen and Molly can also sense power.
    ===
    “In LoK there is no “travel” for TK, so she could try and hit him with it, can I see her tking near to 160 tons please”

    The video where she lifted the semi trucks. Alone they they get up to 40 tons and another few ton with the trailer. She lifted 4 together at once.
    ===
    ” Theres a fine line between a construct of magic protection and a shield or ward of magic protection, its essentially just the same thing, a magic barrier.”

    It is when its noted about the holy blessing interacting with dark sorcery. Gwen aren’t either and basically just solid energy. Nevermind that they take time to actually drop after he hits it. Do the barriers he incounter have any feats?
    What about that blue barrier mobius left when he fought the shadows and the thing the final boss used to shield himself?
    ===
    “Well thats the thing, Kain teleports just because he can”

    Does he do it often. I’ve seen a bit of it but he doesn’t seem to to it often. Could he not do it when he first meet Morbius?
    ===
    “if Pandora only teleports in specific situations”

    I already shown she uses it to attack, disarm, catch someone, or to trick while leaving an illusion.
    She also uses it to avoid or escape things
    i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd485/infamousColeMacgrath/DC/Pandora/Trinity20of20Sin20-20Pandora202013-20005-008_zps6167ggn9.jpg
    i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd485/infamousColeMacgrath/DC/Pandora/Pandorateleports1_zpsd4cead11.jpg
    To simply leave or show ups
    i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd485/infamousColeMacgrath/DC/Pandora/The20Phantom20Stranger2000220201320digital-Empire20006_zpsiohobne6.jpg
    i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd485/infamousColeMacgrath/DC/Pandora/Justice20League20of20America202013-20007-002_zpsvpiwvdh5.jpg
    i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd485/infamousColeMacgrath/DC/Pandora/Justice20League20of20America202013-20007-003_zpsiukzyox8.jpg
    She also uses it to travel simply travel quickly from one place to another.
    ===
    “like I said use another move like a barrier or spell.”

    Barrier is used less often then most of her stuff. She’s used to to block long range attacks. Dodging or teleporting would be more likely.
    ===
    “Cant really gauge “speed” concerning teleporting for Pandora due to being a comic with no que on the speed, and ive not read anything about the others teleporting”

    Look at the Lex scene she wasn’t there an in the time it to him to look up he was. And in the other she was fast enough to bring down an attack and disarm someone before they knew what was happening. So it isn’t slow.
    Gwen is the only other teleporter that I know of but it’s not mean for combat. It’s more of a defensive retreat. Sometimes their obscuring powerful wind, a rotating energy.
    Molly iirc should be able to tear into and slip into a portal to nevernever(alternate dimension. But again, more of a escape or for quick travel like Gwen.
    ===
    “about the same time as most of their spells from what I have seen so far and once hes inside their “dome” assuming, again this is what Gwen is going to do off the bat“

    Shielding her allies from attack is actually one of her normal go to moves.
    ===
    “but it only takes a second or so all the same”

    I get tongue tied easily and I can say at least three words in under a second.
    Pandora’s clear doesn’t take that long.
    Molly’s tend to be a single word.
    Gwen can defend herself, some her useful spells are only a single word and Iirc it was shown that sometimes she’s actually defended when reciting a spell.
    Tam again don’t know.
    ===
    “Besides her constructs in the video you gave me are pretty crap, they broke almost after every attack on her. One TK blast from Kain and their history unless better feats can be shown.“

    See the other videos, they hold up fine when she wants to. Like I said sometimes she makes things that shatter that repulse what it hit. Other times she makes them explode. I’ll get the video with my next post.
    ===
    “Depends on how far they can teleport him”

    Gwen teleport from earth to a space station near a sun.
    Pandora can do other dimensions, planes, and in regular space she has teleported from somewhere in the mountains of tibet to some in the south pacific which I think is somewhere near australia.
    ===
    “So range would be irrelevant”

    I think that might be an NFL. Just because you can teleport through dimensions doesn’t mean range would be irrelevant unless its stated. Didn’t he have the bat form thing rather then teleport to the pillars or something. As well as other places.
    ===
    “they can only do so many actions per second and do not necessarily know whats happening until they have had time to study what the opponent has done.”

    Molly doesn’t take long. And she can mental probe you in the space of the time for it to work.
    She lifted her right hand and murmured, in a silken-soft tone, “Neru.”

    And the dozen or so Big Hoods just sank down to the floor.

    “Mother of God,” Murphy said softly, and turned to stare at Molly.

    “Sleep spell,” I said quietly. “Like the one I had to use on you, Murph.”

    I didn’t mention that the spell I’d used on Murphy had taken every bit of skill I’d had and ten times as long to put together. Molly had just done the same thing, only a dozen times bigger—touching each individual mind and crafting the spell to lull it to sleep. What she’d just done was hard.

    In fact, it was what one could only have expected from a member of the White Council.

    Maybe my godmother had a point.

    Molly shuddered and rubbed at her arms. “Ugh. They aren’t . . . they aren’t right, Ms. Murphy. They weren’t stable, and they could have had their switches flipped to violence at any time. This will at least make sure they won’t hurt themselves or anyone else until morning.”

    Murphy studied her for a moment and then nodded. “Thank you, Molly.””
    Dresden isn’t so good with the mind magic or the multitasking Molly is. He’s more the blow shit up wizard. She can also do more complex stuff like the fear or erasing stuff but unless your complacent and give her time it well, you saw what happened when she did it wrong on her friend.

    As for the interaction between mental stuff it all works at the speed of thought. Her battle with the corpsetaker had happened in the space
    I was still in Molly’s mindscape, on the cheesy bridge. It was silent. Completely silent. Nothing moved. The images on the screen and the various Mollys were all frozen in place like mannequins. Everything that had been happening in the battle had been happening at the speed of thought—lightning fast. There was only one reason that everything here would be stopped still like this, right in the middle of the action.

    Also she can apparently latch on to souls so yeah might not want to do that
    I saw Molly’s eyes widen and the pulsing spiritual mass that was the Corpsetaker began to pull away from the young woman.
    My apprentice didn’t let her.
    Molly let out a wheezing cackle and both hands formed into claws that clutched at the air. I saw the energy of her own magic surround her fingers so that she grasped onto the Corpsetaker’s essence as if it had been a nearly physical thing. The necromancer’s spirit began to ooze through Molly’s grip. The exhausted girl could only slow the Corpsetaker down.
    But it was enough.

    -Ghost Story
    So both her and Pandora can interact with anyone in an intangible form like a soul. One of which can kill them.
    ===
    “See this is confusing, because how would you know not all magic attacks essentially do the same thing? For example when a mage casts a fire ball, is the fireball considered magic or is it just a ball of hot fire just like your suggesting it is in Dresden files? ”

    Because it specifically stated. Fire is just fire once it’s out. It’s just a mass of heat and burny stuff. You something fancy with it, maybe turn it into an actual sphere and hold it in the palm of you hands, focus all the heat into a beam, maybe become immune to it’s touch; That is where the actual magicness comes into play. Repel could probably reflect the will containing the it but the heat would still be there and they’d just be able to keep pushing back towards you and away from them. Probably the best thing to beat something like that is spray it like a flamethrower or get a good wall of fire going and let fire do what fire does best. Or ice, that how Dresden counter someone with the ability to basically dispel magic, not magic attached to that. Just sharp ice blades or a cannonball.
    ===
    “maybe some flying but overall slow, she can neither dodge or protect herself from Kain”

    Kain himself seems around the peak human levels

    Man I wish I could use the whole she has deflected lasers argument but the fast I’ve seen from them is the standard faster than you could track. She can also run fast enough that her friend needed a car to keep up to her. And again the recent showings of her had her put up a barrier faster than an explosion. That’s still supersonic at the least.
    Even the video I should of her coming to Kevin’s aid and is somewhat impressive. Those things spit general move like fastballs which get to around 80 to 90 mph. Not terribly quick in and of itself however unlike major league pitcher, she didn’t know it was coming had turnaround as they were already with a few feet of her. Around six feet at 73 feet per second(50 miles per hour), would’ve given her around 0.08(80 milliseconds). Thats less than half the 200 milliseconds you noted even after I lowered the speed. Even adding another feet or two is still half that. Blocking an explosion as it happening given her even less time.
    ===
    “Hes taken down what is essentially a barrier made of magic”

    A noted specific type and I’ve found little to no feats regarding them. You have anything?
    Besides that barrier more magic-y then then what she makes keep him stuff in a specific room or keep him from damaging someone like in the final boss fight in defiance.
    ===
    “Theres no good Gwen making a “construct” shield in front of her when the TK appears at her throat”

    Even in her “human” form she has taken hits that run the gamut between outright killing to pasting a regular person and shaking it off. Nevermind that she can absorb energy into her to make herself even stronger. She would basically make a good deal of ranged methods against difficult an effect.
    She also can create an doppelgangers but they are little more than meatshield fodder.
    ===
    Found the bit on Molly’s immortal status
    “Maeves an immortal, Harry. One of the least of the immortals, maybe, but immortal all the same. Chop her up if you want to. Burn her. Scatter her ashes to the winds. But it wont kill her. Shell be back. Maybe in months, maybe years, but you can’t just kill her. Shes the Winter Lady.”
    -Cold Days
    Turns out you need a specific date to kill an immortal for good.
    Little disappointed, I figured it’d be more. Chopping Molly up should do if you can get to the right one. However, while she doesn’t have a means of out right teleporting she can move out of battlefield and reappear through nevernever. Or get Gwen or Pandora to do it. She has sent out some in the clones like while out of the battle to distract or lure the enemy before.
    ===
    I think I might have to start tackling responses in bite sizes.

  74. Limbo Lowk April 20, 2015 at 10:19 pm -      #74

    The thing about Gwen is that she had no conflict for a while after the adventure from her younger years. Around her later teens she get back into it and progressively start getting back up to the level she was again. Eventually she get past that point and ends up actually becoming one of the best and does stuff like putting up a bubble that around a good portion of a space station and the surrounding space.
    Also keep in mind that some of the things she dealing are either super-strong(one of which can do stuff like lift skyscraper) monsters and weapons that can get up to the petawatt range(which is still ridiculous even for a max, damn sci-fis). Her stuff actually has feats established outside of dealing with other characters like get smashed by tidal waves, blocking energy blast that punch craters several feet into the ground, and a blast that blew up a factory and everything within a half a mile. It is even mentioned that she is one of the most powerful being on the planet. Which is saying something considering the other powerful being is a guy who can turn into giant kaiju who can make a tornado that carried another giant monster off into space.

    Anyway, Some examples constructs being used as a weapons(explosive and blades)
    www.youtube.com/watch?v=dV4xan_z5oQ
    0:25 cutting. Should note, that the guy it’s pinning has super-strength. He once hit a 60 foot armored monster with a car sending him flying over the height of a building and down a city block. And it was through driving it.
    :40-45 making turning he constructs explosive. Also she can jump a lot higher then I thought.
    :50 sword also a bit of a reaction feat since that thing came out of know where.
    1:16-1:24 Holds off three press while disrupting an energy field

    Can’t find the running faster than a car video or gif but got this
    vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/ben10/images/2/27/Diagon's_mind_control_004.png/revision/latest?cb=20120529163654
    ===
    Pandora not affected by time slow
    i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd485/infamousColeMacgrath/DC/Pandora/Trigonssonstopstime_zpsabd7cd45.jpg
    Which now that I think about explains why Phantom Stranger(guy in blue), who could also mess with time; hasn’t even been able to catch her.

    Pandora mind probing
    i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd485/infamousColeMacgrath/DC/Pandora/Trigonssonstopstime_zpsabd7cd45.jpg

    Pandora teleporting a team
    i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd485/infamousColeMacgrath/DC/Pandora/Justice20League202011-20023-003_zpsjpfcjsfl.jpg

  75. Limbo Lowk April 20, 2015 at 10:41 pm -      #75

    Found more on the Project Thumaton.
    It’s uses a supernatural person as reusable nukes.
    First person they try generates around the equivalent of 22 megatons
    i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd485/infamousColeMacgrath/DC/Pandora/20megathaumatons2_zps4fb72662.jpg
    Pandora gets them to try her but she is too powerful for it
    i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd485/infamousColeMacgrath/DC/Pandora/Pandoralooksintohispast_zps785c3ac3.jpg
    i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd485/infamousColeMacgrath/DC/Pandora/Pandoraoverloadsmagicmagicnukeweapon_zps3a5ff8ed.jpg
    i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd485/infamousColeMacgrath/DC/Pandora/Pandoraoverloadsmagicnukeweapon_zps2e9ee9b8.jpg
    and the last bit is in one of the teleport scenes I posted earlier.

  76. Kitten Lord April 21, 2015 at 8:19 am -      #76

    @Lowk

    “He’s got soul sucking sword filled with dark sorcery. Thats going to set of some red flags.
    Gwen and Molly can also sense power.”

    Is what their weapons do, and how they do them really basic knowledge? I would question that.

    “She lifted 4 together at once.”

    Can I see a source for a trucks weight? I do not belive they standard at 40 tons, that huge for any vehicle, also, you do not see her lift 4 trucks together at once, you see herthrow one, then another etc in quick succession.

    The trucks seem empty as well since she goes inside the last one when it falls on her, note that she could not hold its weight under gravity as it falls so her power is limited. Or maybe thats just her constructs.

    If she goes for TK first she could move Team vamp around though I suppose, does she ever move actual entities around? I ask because often TK capability can depend on size of targets, both larger and smaller, it seems odd she relies on moving other objects to throw at her opponents rather than the opponent himself. Who looks to weigh less than those trucks.

    “Do the barriers he incounter have any feats?
    What about that blue barrier mobius left when he fought the shadows and the thing the final boss used to shield himself?”

    The feat is they require him to find a special artifact to deal with them. As for blue barriers and the boss barrier, the boss could be a gameplay mechanic and their natures are unknown, we do not really know what they are. Thing is, kain actually says he needs to amp the reaver to deal with them, since we know the force he wields with the reaver is ridiculously powerful, the barriers moebius can erect are clearly powerful but no match for the emblemed reaver, the same would be for other barriers.

    “Does he do it often. I’ve seen a bit of it but he doesn’t seem to to it often. Could he not do it when he first meet Morbius?”

    He was disabled when he first met moebius by the staff. And he did not have the dimension emblem for the fast teleport when he first met moebius no. Kain does it all the time, he does it in Soul reaver during both boss battles, he does it throughout soul reaver 2 as well. Almost every scene hes in, he teleports. He does it a few times in Defiance but obviously, he is a player character in Defiance, so what he does there is often player choice, he does it a few times in cutscenes though.

    “I already shown she uses it to attack, disarm, catch someone, or to trick while leaving an illusion.
    She also uses it to avoid or escape things”

    Few questions, why is it in the first two scans of her disappearing she seems to say “damn” or “no”, is she teleporting herself or being transported/snatched by someone else? Also can we discern time from these? for example, in the first scan shes already running from an explosion by the looks of it unless its literally just happened?

    The first scans you showed me teleporting she took some time, because there was a glow of energy around her and her friend the black dude had time to tell her not to go before she disappeared. Its possible all of these scenes are no faster than Kains teleport apart from perhaps the explosion depending on when the explosion started.

    I feel like shes been in a lot of situations where a teleport may have been useful, like when Superman throws a punch, she did not know he wasnt going to follow it up and come after he with gusto, but she just jumps back, if she does that with Kain she could end up dead.

    “Look at the Lex scene she wasn’t there an in the time it to him to look up he was.”

    Well he said he wasnt surprised, he was already reading something beforehand. Also she just appeared but we did not see her on the other side, we do not know if it could have taken her a second or so to teleport to him.

    “he was fast enough to bring down an attack and disarm someone before they knew what was happening. So it isn’t slow.”

    If your referring to the woman looking down the scope of a sniper rifle thats hardly impressive is it? shes not even looking in the right direction.

    “I get tongue tied easily and I can say at least three words in under a second.
    Pandora’s clear doesn’t take that long.
    Molly’s tend to be a single word.”

    Thats purely anecdotal, I cant say three words in under a second, let alone weird, magic phrases that may require concentration plus a decision on what to cast. All while Kain has already disappeared. Its not like they can put him down in under a second so even if they can hit him, good for them, they have not shown anything that can one shot Kain.

    ” I’ll get the video with my next post.”

    Sure.

    “Gwen teleport from earth to a space station near a sun.
    Pandora can do other dimensions, planes, and in regular space she has teleported from somewhere in the mountains of tibet to some in the south pacific which I think is somewhere near australia.”

    Can you show me them teleporting their enemies? Youve shown me tons of scans of her battling things, getting hit by things and at least one occassion of her teleporting to hit someone from behind but never teleporting her opponent through all this ,especially to somewhere else.

    “I think that might be an NFL. Just because you can teleport through dimensions doesn’t mean range would be irrelevant unless its stated. Didn’t he have the bat form thing rather then teleport to the pillars or something. As well as other places.”

    No more a NFL than saying a skeleton would not have to breathe underwater just becaue it does not have to breathe on land, its just common sense. Teleportation does not necessarily “travel” distance, the whole point of teleport is to take out distance or movement.

    Although its true he did use bat form to travel to Avernus and the pillars, this is a time period hes not been to, so one could argue that maybe Kain did not know the locations, either that or its just an excuse for Kain to use bat form which looks more interesting, we had hardly seen much of it in previous games.

    “Molly doesn’t take long”

    I dont know, she “lifted her hand” and then spoke a word softly, it does not sound like something you can just bark out as fast as you can. If kain lifts his hand, or makes a simple gesture nearly 200 tons of force has just wrapped around your throat…..

    “Also she can apparently latch on to souls so yeah might not want to do that”

    just sounds like the lesser spirits in LoK, they get sucked in or devoured by Raziel just as quickly. The difference is, vampire wraiths are far more endurant, and the vampire lieutenants are invincible in spiritual form and Kain is on another level entirely, plus…you know, shown soul resistances.

    “Kain himself seems around the peak human levels”

    Its actually stated as early as Blood omen 2, you know when vampires were pretty weak and not evolved that the average vampire is in Umahs words “faster, stronger” than any human that ever lived. So in his amped up form after millenia of evolution he is greater than that.

    Also humans cannot make decisions in .2 seconds like Kain can, let alone do a sword strike without being prepared.

    “move like fastballs which get to around 80 to 90 mph. Not terribly quick in and of itself however unlike major league pitcher, she didn’t know it was coming had turnaround as they were already with a few feet of her. Around six feet at 73 feet per second(50 miles per hour), would’ve given her around 0.08(80 milliseconds). Thats less than half the 200 milliseconds you noted even after I lowered the speed. Even adding another feet or two is still half that. Blocking an explosion as it happening given her even less time.”

    Sorry which one was the explosion feat?

    Also can you show me where it says their like “fastballs” or are you estimating this? Also note that the fact she was turning round to face them means that some stimiulai has already alereted her, so her “reactions” started at the point she started to turn, not while it was within feet of her.

    The tihng is, in .2 seconds that not Kains reaction time, thats his Action after the reaction. This means Kain is far faster than even that at deciding things like what angle to strike, during his dimentional teleport that you can see in the videos on the respect thread his targets are sometimes even moving, yet he still gets a strike on them even though hes not even in the same dimention “between” treleports, proving he can not only predict, decide on from where to attack and a whole bunch of other things.

    Its untrue that humans can make any complicated reaction, for example decisions on a moving object;

    encyclopedia2.thefreedictionary.com/Reaction+Time+Human

    It can take .4 seconds just to “recognize” an image. how long it takes for someone to decide to do something ,like something complicated like 1 of maybe dozens of spells then to cast said spell would take far higher reaction time.

    ” Even adding another feet or two is still half that. Blocking an explosion as it happening given her even less time.”

    Also note, her “reactions” result was to project a barrier, just like I said it would probably be in this scenario.

    “then then what she makes keep him stuff in a specific room or keep him from damaging someone like in the final boss fight in defiance.”

    Mechanics, it would be a daft game indeed if the player could literally avoid every fight in the game.

    “Turns out you need a specific date to kill an immortal for good.
    Little disappointed, I figured it’d be more. Chopping Molly up should do if you can get to the right one”

    That could be either a NLF or hyperbole, I take it shes never been cut to piecies by a soul devouring sword either though? Plus it says it could take years. Also does Mollies mind defenses work when shes unconscious?

    “0:25 cutting. Should note, that the guy it’s pinning has super-strength. He once hit a 60 foot armored monster with a car sending him flying over the height of a building and down a city block. And it was through driving it.”

    This could be the more powerful of things I have seen her do. See, its possible to calculate that monster, can you show me that scene? From there, I can calculate the force of her barrier in that scene, the cutting is ok but how strong the machine is has less importance compared with how strong the metal its made out of is. The kid in the holds said they have a hard time with her magic as if their weaker to it? But their adapting….

    “Can’t find the running faster than a car video or gif but got this”

    I think running and flying is going to be second fiddle to teleporting in every situation unless she can run multiple mach speeds.

    “Which now that I think about explains why Phantom Stranger(guy in blue), who could also mess with time; hasn’t even been able to catch her.”

    Thats not resistance, the Demon specifcally said what they were doing was not for the eyes of the regular folk. So he froze them, he was obviously conversing with stranger and pandora.

    “Pandora teleporting a team”

    Looks like their all close to her for the teleport, thats the worst thing they could do when faceing kain and his AoE’s, least of all his sword blows which mirror onto nearby foes.

    “First person they try generates around the equivalent of 22 megatons”

    Seems like the goal of the experiment is to keep the host alive while generating the power. Also its not megatons, it says thaumatons, which I do not know what that is, I looked it up….not sure.

    Looks like she just broke their machinery. Cant determine a useful feat from it.

    “I think I might have to start tackling responses in bite sizes.”

    I think were discussing too many things at once tbh, lets just choose one thing that matters, like say, reaction times first, and what the characters are “likely” to do in that time, and by likely I mean what they have done more consistently. I know kain teleports, sword strikes and tks as a standard, but I cant determine what Pandora does as a standard, Gwen is obvious, Molly has a precedent concerning illusions, but Pandora I cant see her doing much but punching in fights and getting close up and using teleport but not that often in combat since in a lot of scans shes just grabbing her enemies like blight.

    I read through the trinity war on youtube, its here if anyone wants to see it too;

    www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuJgAa40b2hnhqPGlRj4cwMgZD-xcW1Vy

    Heres a breakdown.

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsjHxlup2wE

    After reading that apparently superman has been weak the entire time, including when he attacked Pandora and she shot him, hes been losing control of his power because hes got Kryptonite in his brain….so no wonder lower tiers could face him in this arc.

    Further, it seems she shoots Shazam later on in the comic and it does not pierce him? she fires her guns a lot too so maybe between punching and shooting thats her regular procedure in a fight? She seems less of a battlemage and more of an enchanter who boosts herself a bit with magic then uses guns/close combat. She uses more regular magic outside of combat.

  77. Limbo Lowk April 21, 2015 at 5:25 pm -      #77

    “Is what their weapons do, and how they do them really basic knowledge? I would question that.”

    Maybe not it’s other special abilities but its basic ability, I’d say yeah. It is not exactly a secret or hidden nature. Even it’s name tells you what it does.
    ===
    “Can I see a source for a trucks weight?”
    www.thetruckersreport.com/facts-about-trucks/

    Though from some other source like answers and forums they can also be around around 28 tons.
    ===
    “note that she could not hold its weight under gravity as it falls so her power is limited”

    Actually the bubble survived and pushed her through the truck. So it’s not that her construct didn’t hold it up its that the trailer wasn’t tough enough.
    ===
    “you do not see her lift 4 trucks together at once”

    Later on in the video you do. Actually it might have been more offscreen since when they all hit at the same time and it’s around 5 of them.
    ===
    “If she goes for TK first she could move Team vamp around though I suppose, does she ever move actual entities around?”

    Occasionaly. Sometimes she also puts them in a bubble.
    ===
    “The feat is they require him to find a special artifact to deal with them.”

    It doesn’t really tell us about the barrier though. All it did was power the reaver and I don’t reacll by how much.
    ===
    “the boss could be a gameplay mechanic and their natures are unknown”

    There not blessed barriers so that’s a difference. It would seem that only certian type of barriers are affected by it while other are not.
    ===
    “why is it in the first two scans of her disappearing she seems to say “damn” or “no”, is she teleporting herself or being transported/snatched by someone else?”

    The first one was her boyfriend. The second one was one of the guys upset after her escape.
    ===
    “in the first scan shes already running from an explosion by the looks of it unless its literally just happened?”

    They was no explosion behind her when she was escaping. They were chasing but the explosion didn’t happen until she was jumping.
    ===
    “The first scans you showed me teleporting she took some time, because there was a glow of energy around her”

    The glow is activating her armor. By the time he says no don’t she is already already. Beside that in combat it’s fast enough to not only catch someone but fast enough to let disarm before the other reacts.
    ===
    “like when Superman throws a punch, she did not know he wasn’t going to follow it up and come after he with gusto, but she just jumps back”

    And then only stays around long enough to shoot him and explain and then is gone. Actually didn’t realize that until you brought this feat up but she also steal back the box before either of them notices(and me apparently).. Two being with superhuman perception who are fast enough to block and catch bullets. So there is at least SOME credit to the faster than thought line.
    ===
    “if she does that with Kain she could end up dead.”

    Or Kain just ends up getting shot by weapons that travel faster then he can react that are at the leaast strong enough to harm Shazam. The same guy that can take hit from people like superman. And then disappears.
    ===
    “If your referring to the woman looking down the scope of a sniper rifle thats hardly impressive is it? shes not even looking in the right direction.”

    post number #24 scan. She teleported right in front of her.
    ===
    “Thats purely anecdotal, I cant say three words in under a second, let alone weird, magic phrases that may require concentration plus a decision on what to cast. All while Kain has already disappeared. Its not like they can put him down in under a second so even if they can hit him, good for them, they have not shown anything that can one shot Kain.“

    But they do have stuff that can slow him down or drain his energy or teleport him away obscure his vision or freeze him in place, or put him to sleep, etc.
    ===
    “Can you show me them teleporting their enemies? Youve shown me tons of scans of her battling things, getting hit by things and at least one occassion of her teleporting to hit someone from behind but never teleporting her opponent through all this ,especially to somewhere else.”

    Thats a tricky one. I know they have teleport others, stopped people teleporting, tracked other people through teleporting; but teleporting an enemy huh. Gwen has and aided other in it but that was before she had the teleportation spells. It was a weapon that dropped people into another dimension. She has since shown she can open ways into it though. Pandora watched Stranger do it but they tend to differ in style. I could’ve chose him in her place but she has the better resistance feat.
    ===
    I think thats the best I can think of. I geuss it’s all reserved for saving or pulling back for now until I see if I can find anything else.
    ===
    “this is a time period hes not been to, so one could argue that maybe Kain did not know the locations”

    But he did though. So they does seem to be the possibility that there is someone kind of range limit.
    ===
    “I dont know, she “lifted her hand” and then spoke a word softly, it does not sound like something you can just bark out as fast as you can.”

    You can speak softly quickly. Nevermind the word and lifting your hand doesn’t take more than a second. Seriously how slow exactly do you think even us regular human are. We can do gestures and say a word in under a second. I mean I could understand the stuff like the long incantation, Gwen has one for time travel/limited control, but the single maybe double words and gestures? Especially from people with above human level reflexes? I think you might be underestimating how fast humans are capable of being in general.
    ===
    “just sounds like the lesser spirits in LoK, they get sucked in or devoured by Raziel just as quickly. The difference is, vampire wraiths are far more endurant, and the vampire lieutenants are invincible in spiritual form and Kain is on another level entirely, plus…you know, shown soul resistances.”

    But that doesn’t mean his soul can’t be grabbed. Just that it would be tough to destory.
    ===
    “Sorry which one was the explosion feat?”

    Thought I showed it already
    www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_5yAsOfgws
    :49-:53
    ===
    “Also can you show me where it says their like “fastballs” or are you estimating this?”

    Estimating and just to be safe I used a low speed under that.
    ===
    “Also note, her “reactions” result was to project a barrier, just like I said it would probably be in this scenario.”

    Barriers that have actual feats.
    Unless I’m missing something he only taken down only one type of barrier that had no feats, was stated that the reason it was broken was due to the interaction between the barrier blessedness and reavers dark sorcery when stuck it didn’t even cause it to stop immediately. It took actual time, time that anyone could remake or reinforce or some other move.
    ===
    “That could be either a NLF or hyperbole”

    Not really an NFL, there is a limit. A specific time or place. Its told by a spirit of intelligence who so far has been right. He also one of the few being that knows the specifics to kill an immortal which is is why they they want to get rid of him..it?
    ===
    “Plus it says it could take years.”

    I know thats why I said it could work.
    ===
    “Also does Mollies mind defenses work when shes unconscious?”

    She wasn’t exactly conscious when she fought corpsetaker, so yes.
    ===
    “See, its possible to calculate that monster, can you show me that scene?”

    I’ll add it to the cue of things to look for.
    ===
    “I think running and flying is going to be second fiddle to teleporting in every situation unless she can run multiple mach speeds.”

    Assuming 30 mph she could move a few feet in under a few milliseconds under triple digits.
    ===
    “Thats not resistance, the Demon specifcally said what they were doing was not for the eyes of the regular folk. So he froze them, he was obviously conversing with stranger and pandora.”

    Actually they just wanted to talk to Stranger. They could’ve cared less about Pandora.
    ===
    “Looks like their all close to her for the teleport, thats the worst thing they could do when faceing kain and his AoE’s, least of all his sword blows which mirror onto nearby foes.”

    Not if it’s to pull back and Kain doesn’t know where they are. She done it to people that weren’t just next to her in the nuke project scene.
    ===
    “Seems like the goal of the experiment is to keep the host alive while generating the power. Also its not megatons, it says thaumatons, which I do not know what that is, I looked it up….not sure.”

    The goal is to make nuke but to do that they also want reusable nukes. The people they are making it for are have a guy that can push the moon and he want that weapon to fight something too strong for him. They want a WMD that can repeatedly fire.
    Thauma is a word for stuff dealing with magic or miracles. They are using magic as a nukes. Hence the name project Thauma and ton. Think of it like scientist building the atom bomb instead they are using magic. That why he is using a nuke like scale to determine the power..
    ===
    “Looks like she just broke their machinery.“

    He specifically said she is overloading it. She overload a machine built to handle nuke levels of power. They manage to fix it for a bit but in the end the place blows up because of the power and destroys a mountain basically proving that power was infact around the same level as a nuke.
    Might be a good way to power up Gwen. Maybe bring her up to her grandmother’s level, she could reality warp with a snap.
    ===
    “I think were discussing too many things at once tbh”

    lol, I really wish I had read this beforehand.
    ===
    “After reading that apparently superman has been weak the entire time, including when he attacked Pandora and she shot him”

    Pandora came before the incident where he was weakened. It went
    -pandora tries to get superman to open the box, It doesn’t work he goes crazy, She get the fuck outta dodge.
    -They fly off to stop shazam. they do but then the other just league shows up.
    -Some bad shit happens. Atomica secretly places kyrptonite in superman causing his power to go all wonky. Even worse shit happens.
    -Because him interacting with the box was the last thing he did some think thats what the problem is but they are all basically being played.

  78. Limbo Lowk April 21, 2015 at 5:42 pm -      #78

    “Is what their weapons do, and how they do them really basic knowledge? I would question that.”

    Maybe not it’s other special abilities but its basic ability, I’d say yeah. It is not exactly a secret or hidden nature. Even it’s name tells you what it does.
    ===
    “Can I see a source for a trucks weight?”
    www.thetruckersreport.com/facts-about-trucks/

    Though from some other source like answers and forums they can also be around around 28 tons.
    ===
    “note that she could not hold its weight under gravity as it falls so her power is limited”

    Actually the bubble survived and pushed her through the truck. So it’s not that her construct didn’t hold it up its that the trailer wasn’t tough enough.
    ===
    “you do not see her lift 4 trucks together at once”

    Later on in the video you do. Actually it might have been more offscreen since when they all hit at the same time and it’s around 5 of them.
    ===
    “If she goes for TK first she could move Team vamp around though I suppose, does she ever move actual entities around?”

    Occasionaly. Sometimes she also puts them in a bubble.
    ===
    “The feat is they require him to find a special artifact to deal with them.”

    It doesn’t really tell us about the barrier though. All it did was power the reaver and I don’t reacll by how much.
    ===
    “the boss could be a gameplay mechanic and their natures are unknown”

    There not blessed barriers so that’s a difference. It would seem that only certian type of barriers are affected by it while other are not.
    ===
    “why is it in the first two scans of her disappearing she seems to say “damn” or “no”, is she teleporting herself or being transported/snatched by someone else?”

    The first one was her boyfriend. The second one was one of the guys upset after her escape.
    ===
    “in the first scan shes already running from an explosion by the looks of it unless its literally just happened?”

    They was no explosion behind her when she was escaping. They were chasing but the explosion didn’t happen until she was jumping.
    ===
    “The first scans you showed me teleporting she took some time, because there was a glow of energy around her”

    The glow is activating her armor. By the time he says no don’t she is already already. Beside that in combat it’s fast enough to not only catch someone but fast enough to let disarm before the other reacts.
    ===
    “like when Superman throws a punch, she did not know he wasn’t going to follow it up and come after he with gusto, but she just jumps back”

    And then only stays around long enough to shoot him and explain and then is gone. Actually didn’t realize that until you brought this feat up but she also steal back the box before either of them notices(and me apparently).. Two being with superhuman perception who are fast enough to block and catch bullets. So there is at least SOME credit to the faster than thought line.
    ===
    “if she does that with Kain she could end up dead.”

    Or Kain just ends up getting shot by weapons that travel faster then he can react that are at the leaast strong enough to harm Shazam. The same guy that can take hit from people like superman. And then disappears.
    ===
    “If your referring to the woman looking down the scope of a sniper rifle thats hardly impressive is it? shes not even looking in the right direction.”

    post number #24 scan. She teleported right in front of her.
    ===
    “Thats purely anecdotal, I cant say three words in under a second, let alone weird, magic phrases that may require concentration plus a decision on what to cast. All while Kain has already disappeared. Its not like they can put him down in under a second so even if they can hit him, good for them, they have not shown anything that can one shot Kain.“

    But they do have stuff that can slow him down or drain his energy or teleport him away obscure his vision or freeze him in place, or put him to sleep, etc.
    ===
    “Can you show me them teleporting their enemies? Youve shown me tons of scans of her battling things, getting hit by things and at least one occassion of her teleporting to hit someone from behind but never teleporting her opponent through all this ,especially to somewhere else.”

    Thats a tricky one. I know they have teleport others, stopped people teleporting, tracked other people through teleporting; but teleporting an enemy huh. Gwen has and aided other in it but that was before she had the teleportation spells. It was a weapon that dropped people into another dimension. She has since shown she can open ways into it though. Pandora watched Stranger do it but they tend to differ in style. I could’ve chose him in her place but she has the better resistance feat.
    ===
    I think thats the best I can think of. I geuss it’s all reserved for saving or pulling back for now until I see if I can find anything else.
    ===
    “this is a time period hes not been to, so one could argue that maybe Kain did not know the locations”

    But he did though. So they does seem to be the possibility that there is someone kind of range limit.
    ===
    “I dont know, she “lifted her hand” and then spoke a word softly, it does not sound like something you can just bark out as fast as you can.”

    You can speak softly quickly. Nevermind the word and lifting your hand doesn’t take more than a second. Seriously how slow exactly do you think even us regular human are. We can do gestures and say a word in under a second. I mean I could understand the stuff like the long incantation, Gwen has one for time travel/limited control, but the single maybe double words and gestures? Especially from people with above human level reflexes? I think you might be underestimating how fast humans are capable of being in general.
    ===
    “just sounds like the lesser spirits in LoK, they get sucked in or devoured by Raziel just as quickly. The difference is, vampire wraiths are far more endurant, and the vampire lieutenants are invincible in spiritual form and Kain is on another level entirely, plus…you know, shown soul resistances.”

    But that doesn’t mean his soul can’t be grabbed. Just that it would be tough to destory.
    ===
    “Sorry which one was the explosion feat?”

    Thought I showed it already
    www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_5yAsOfgws
    :49-:53
    ===
    “Also can you show me where it says their like “fastballs” or are you estimating this?”

    Estimating and just to be safe I used a low speed under that.
    ===
    “Also note, her “reactions” result was to project a barrier, just like I said it would probably be in this scenario.”

    Barriers that have actual feats.
    Unless I’m missing something he only taken down only one type of barrier that had no feats, was stated that the reason it was broken was due to the interaction between the barrier blessedness and reavers dark sorcery when stuck it didn’t even cause it to stop immediately. It took actual time, time that anyone could remake or reinforce or some other move.
    ===
    “That could be either a NLF or hyperbole”

    Not really an NFL, there is a limit. A specific time or place. Its told by a spirit of intelligence who so far has been right. He also one of the few being that knows the specifics to kill an immortal which is is why they they want to get rid of him..it?
    ===
    “Plus it says it could take years.”

    I know thats why I said it could work.
    ===
    “Also does Mollies mind defenses work when shes unconscious?”

    She wasn’t exactly conscious when she fought corpsetaker, so yes.
    ===
    “See, its possible to calculate that monster, can you show me that scene?”

    I’ll add it to the cue of things to look for.
    ===
    “I think running and flying is going to be second fiddle to teleporting in every situation unless she can run multiple mach speeds.”

    Assuming 30 mph she could move a few feet in under a few milliseconds under triple digits.
    ===
    “Thats not resistance, the Demon specifcally said what they were doing was not for the eyes of the regular folk. So he froze them, he was obviously conversing with stranger and pandora.”

    Actually they just wanted to talk to Stranger. They could’ve cared less about Pandora.
    ===
    “Looks like their all close to her for the teleport, thats the worst thing they could do when faceing kain and his AoE’s, least of all his sword blows which mirror onto nearby foes.”

    Not if it’s to pull back and Kain doesn’t know where they are. She done it to people that weren’t just next to her in the nuke project scene.
    ===
    “Seems like the goal of the experiment is to keep the host alive while generating the power. Also its not megatons, it says thaumatons, which I do not know what that is, I looked it up….not sure.”

    The goal is to make nuke but to do that they also want reusable nukes. The people they are making it for are have a guy that can push the moon and he want that weapon to fight something too strong for him. They want a WMD that can repeatedly fire.
    Thauma is a word for stuff dealing with magic or miracles. They are using magic as a nukes. Hence the name project Thauma and ton. Think of it like scientist building the atom bomb instead they are using magic. That why he is using a nuke like scale to determine the power..
    ===
    “Looks like she just broke their machinery.“

    He specifically said she is overloading it. She overload a machine built to handle nuke levels of power. They manage to fix it for a bit but in the end the place blows up because of the power and destroys a mountain basically proving that power was infact around the same level as a nuke.
    Might be a good way to power up Gwen. Maybe bring her up to her grandmother’s level, she could reality warp with a snap.
    ===
    “I think were discussing too many things at once tbh”

    lol, I really wish I had read this beforehand.
    ===
    “After reading that apparently superman has been weak the entire time, including when he attacked Pandora and she shot him”

    Pandora came before the incident where he was weakened. It went
    -pandora tries to get superman to open the box, It doesn’t work he goes crazy, She get the fuck outta dodge.
    -They fly off to stop shazam. they do but then the other just league shows up.
    -Some bad shit happens. Atomica secretly places kyrptonite in superman causing his power to go all wonky. Even worse shit happens.
    -Because him interacting with the box the last thing to affect him in someway some think thats what the problem is but they are all basically being played.

  79. Limbo Lowk April 21, 2015 at 6:37 pm -      #79

    How fast the spit moves. It isn’t supersonic or anything but it definitely isn’t slow. Personally I’ve seen arrows move like that but I went with baseball for a low end.
    i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd485/infamousColeMacgrath/Just%20cuz/mmGJpi_zpskov2eo0e.gif

    Heres the knocking him away. Also he can only grow to 60 feet I don’t think it’s his default.

    EDIT: he’s around 20 feet.
    ===
    So how durable is Kain? I recall something about Raziel stabbing him with his claws and it working, I think he took out his heart. I know he had super strength or something but Gwen has shown to apply enough force to send a guy miles away. And Pandora can actually cause shazam pain, a guy that takes hits from superman. So she should at least be capable of hurting him right?

  80. Kitten Lord April 21, 2015 at 6:45 pm -      #80

    @Lowk

    “Later on in the video you do. Actually it might have been more offscreen since when they all hit at the same time and it’s around 5 of them.”

    Oh yes sorry, I forgot about that part. I was still refering to the earlier bit when shes striking at him one after the other. So she can lift and throw up to the 150-200 ton range.

    “All it did was power the reaver and I don’t reacll by how much.”

    Well like I said, enough for its “magic” to dispel the barriers.

    “It would seem that only certian type of barriers are affected by it while other are not.”

    To test this theory we would need to see Kain “trying” to dispel those barriers and failing to do so, but since it is, as I said a gameplay mechanic we cannot judge that.

    “Or Kain just ends up getting shot by weapons that travel faster then he can react that are at the leaast strong enough to harm Shazam. The same guy that can take hit from people like superman. And then disappears.”

    I could have sworn I mentioned how it did little to stop shazam earlier despite spamming bullets at him, in the trinity war?

    youtu.be/G-PSqQE5MMM?list=PLuJgAa40b2hnhqPGlRj4cwMgZD-xcW1Vy&t=683

    First shes fireing away and nothing seems to happen, either shes missing or it does nothing, second scan shes fireing point blank and he just sort of grumbles, we see no holes or damage to Shazam…..

    I am still waiting for feats on what her guns have actually “pierced” that can be gauged in pascals of pressure.

    And anyway, lets assume she opens up with her guns, she stands there blasting away, making little 9mm sized holes in kain which are instantly healing as hes still coming onto her, so she dies from either his sword or TK blasting her in the head. Or gets smashed to bits to get wailed on later if her “immortality” gets in the way of things.

    “post number #24 scan. She teleported right in front of her.”

    I see, tell me I wonder how this person not only got the better of pandora later but despite being slapped around regains her gun and levels it at pandora? Seems odd that if Pandora is fast or has reactions she wouldnt be in sights like that anyway, what happens out of interest afterwards?

    Granted though, she teleports in front, although her opponent is kind of falling/looking down a scope again just to have someone appear in front of her. There is still distinctly a “glow” before she teleports though. It must take more than milliseconds to do for there to be a panel dedicated to her glowing for it….

    Does she ever “combat teleport” while someone is up in her face? for example, does she fight someone in close combat or within meters and teleport behind them?

    “But they do have stuff that can slow him down or drain his energy or teleport him away obscure his vision or freeze him in place, or put him to sleep, etc.”

    Not sure Kain ever “sleeps” or even has the physical processes to do so, the guy is a cadaver. As for obscuring his vision, maybe….if hes already in your face, striking you with a sword it may not be the best thing to do, where was the freezing spell again? Sorry but as you said, we have talked of too many things and I am forgetting older bits…

    “I think thats the best I can think of. I geuss it’s all reserved for saving or pulling back for now until I see if I can find anything else”

    Sure.

    “But he did though. So they does seem to be the possibility that there is someone kind of range limit.”

    He knew “of them” but as far as I can recall the last time he was in avernas cathedral, which may not have been at the same time (pretty sure it wasnt) was thousands, if not tens of thousands of years ago. I am wondering if he can teleport to a location he has at the best the vaguest recollection of. And even if his teleport had some sort of “range” limit (doubtful for previous reasons given) there would still be little reason to use bats because bats are arguably slower than him doing multiple teleports.

    It could just be his decision to use bats at that moment anyway, like I said, it cannot be proven that he has a range limit if its never suggested however by the sheer fact that teleportation does not “travel” physical distance and bypasses movement altogether distance seems irrelevant.

    “Nevermind the word and lifting your hand doesn’t take more than a second. Seriously how slow exactly do you think even us regular human are. We can do gestures and say a word in under a second.”

    not in .2 seconds, not on the fly either. If you read my quotes previously it takes .4 seconds just to “recognise” an image, I think your relying on the fact that in the examples where they are casting spells they are not in a hurry or seem to be, their not doing these powers at least not so were able to gauge in fractions of a second.

    As you said, it does not tkae “more” than a second to speak and raise your hand but they need to do it in .2 seconds.

    “I think you might be underestimating how fast humans are capable of being in general.”

    Maybe, have any examples of people doing that sort of thing quickly? I feel your overestimating how hard its going to be for these characters to do everything your suggesting they can do in .2 seconds.

    “But that doesn’t mean his soul can’t be grabbed. Just that it would be tough to destory.”

    Well that the thing, vamps in LoK are even more powerful and just as resistance in spiritual form as they are in life. So unless she can “grab” kains spirit with enough force to overpower his 200+ tons of strength and what not I am doubtful it could be useful, just look at Dumah;

    youtu.be/FxbANwteigo?t=32

    Hes the same big, bulky beast as he is in life, only you cant really do anything to him.

    “Thought I showed it already”

    Thing is she knew it was already there, looks like she got it up just as the missle exploded. Its not like she reacted to the explosion but more the fact that a relatively slow missle was coming towards her and just happened to get her shield up in time to stop its result.

    Also why does she seem to struggle a bit later, creating that barrier to protect her friends made her gasp a little just to get the barrier up, suggesting some effort involved?

    “Barriers that have actual feats.
    Unless I’m missing something he only taken down only one type of barrier that had no feats, was stated that the reason it was broken was due to the interaction between the barrier blessedness and reavers dark sorcery when stuck it didn’t even cause it to stop immediately. It took actual time, time that anyone could remake or reinforce or some other move.”

    You missed the fact that he needed to find an amp to boost its power to get through it. Considering Kains sword swings excert crazy pressure, the barrier would have to be stronger than anything I have seen so far from any attack on the mages yet to tank it. The fact he “needed” an amp is a feat.

    Also you calling it a blessed barrier makes no connection. So what? Gwens is a magenta barrier, but both are magic barriers, both are therefore able to be dispelled unless you can argue some massive difference between them beyond them having different names.


    “when stuck it didn’t even cause it to stop immediately. It took actual time, time that anyone could remake or reinforce or some other move.”

    it sort of explodes into smoke and disapears, its power is still gone after being struck. Kain can move his sword in a “blur” of slashes so as soon as its gone, he would be on them.

    “Actually they just wanted to talk to Stranger. They could’ve cared less about Pandora.”

    probably why they didnt freeze her, they did not want the mortals getting involved yet Pandora did not class so low.

    “Not if it’s to pull back and Kain doesn’t know where they are. She done it to people that weren’t just next to her in the nuke project scene.”

    Which post was this again? I dont recall seeing her teleporting others in the scene.

    “He specifically said she is overloading it. She overload a machine built to handle nuke levels of power.”

    It was built to handle energy that turned people into nukes and she hit it with her own brand of magic. Theres nowhere in the scan that says it “handles” nuke levels of power, the guy says the machine was monitoring power levels. It just seems to me her releasing her magic in her strongest form wrecked the machine because its obviously not built to monitor her magic, but instead the power their trying to implant in her to make her into a bomb.

    The resulting energy she released was not a nuke, the facility seemed to be falling apart for some time. Its like going into a nuclear reactor and messing with the controls until it goes into meltdown, she just injected the machinery with something it did not work with.

    “Might be a good way to power up Gwen”

    or “overload” her like the machine, killing her…..

    “Pandora came before the incident where he was weakened”

    Mind showing me the time stamps in the video I posted above giving us the trinity arc?

    I got this;

    youtu.be/-Ot0Vsw85Rg?list=PLuJgAa40b2hnhqPGlRj4cwMgZD-xcW1Vy&t=1435

    Where Atomica is mentioninig the sliver of kryptonite but I cant find the battle she mentioned against the Justice league.

  81. Kitten Lord April 21, 2015 at 7:10 pm -      #81

    “Heres the knocking him away. Also he can only grow to 60 feet I don’t think it’s his default.”

    Thanks, ill post this on the topia and see if Tarbel can work out force required to launch that thing. Ill give you a heads up though, the fact he used a car ruins the feat, because the force cannot be higher than it takes to “bend” or”break” the car …whcih is not much sadly.

    “So how durable is Kain? I recall something about Raziel stabbing him with his claws and it working, I think he took out his heart. I know he had super strength or something but Gwen has shown to apply enough force to send a guy miles away. And Pandora can actually cause shazam pain, a guy that takes hits from superman. So she should at least be capable of hurting him right?”

    Very, if you look a tthe first page, at the bottom of it you see kains physical stats in the respect thread. Basically, to do “as much” damage to kain as raziels claws in Soul reaver, which is nothing, he could not damage kain until Defiance, where he also had to weaken him beforehand with the wraith blade.

    But anyway, the pressure required per square mm is in the terapascal range, or 11.6 per square mm to be exact. now the head of a bullet is hard to estimate since its rounded but as an estimate, a bullet or 9mm round (not sure what her guns are based on?) would be having a tip in the range of 60 square millimeters.

    So Kain has roughly 700 terapascals of pressure resistance in that area. This means using this calculator;

    www.easycalculation.com/physics/classical-physics/force.php

    I can find projected force and from that pressure. So heres what you put in;

    A 9mm round weighs 7.5 grams, it would have to go 20,000x the speed of light; 5995849160000 m/s to reach the newtons (44968868700) required to deal about 740 terapascals worth of pressure across the area.

    How would you put a hole in kain though? since that number is just above Raziels equivalent pressure…..meh, i dont know, thats more complicated. You would have to pierce him first, then get through meat, tissue, bone which combined makes a far stronger combo than skin, especially or a bullet.

    Now we know her bullets do not go nearly that fast, but I want to know if they can “penetrate” someoen who could tank the same pressure?

  82. Amm0vamp1r3 April 21, 2015 at 7:55 pm -      #82

    As do this fight my first comment was obviously a joke I don’t really know who would win

    I’ve been watching this debate as its gone on and it’s basically been Kain vs the mages and I doubt Kain could solo this, But absolute zero brought up feats for Lestat and there has been mention of Dracula and The Dragonborn

    I think DB has either been massively undersold here or just not given proper representation

    This guy is a master swordsman and magician who also happens to be a vampire lord and let’s just say his character is a vampire. That means he or she is more than like going to use a lot of illusions
    (vampires main booste is that champion of the night. Illusions spells cast by a vampire are 25% more Powerul)
    That means not only is this person capable of making the mages fight amongst themselves like Kain does he can do that, make himself invisible, while also casting completely quiet spells

    He is already supernaturally quiet with nightstalkers footsteps he has muffle which makes him completely quiet

    He can raise the dead should someone fall he can revive his allies or enemies to be a permanent part of his team should their body not be destroyed. But he can also summon atronachs, dragons and deadra

    His shouts allow him to slow time, hit with force enough to knock down castle walls, he can also make immortal people mortal (looking at you tam), that shout that can knock down walls can also disintegrate people

    His lighting can disintegrate people and takes their magic,cold freezes people but also takes their stamina and fire pretty simple

    He can paralyze people for a short amount of time, heal himself and his friends and dead and the undead alike, calm people down so they don’t want to fight, booste his team mates so they want to fight more but not only that they have more health etc

    He can also make people into his thralls or into vampires with a bite

    The dragon born is the Swiss Army knife of the team.

  83. Kitten Lord April 21, 2015 at 8:02 pm -      #83

    @Ammo

    “I’ve been watching this debate as its gone on and it’s basically been Kain vs the mages”

    its about time good sir! I could use some more vampire supporting backup, like you said I doubt Kain could solo as well, and by jove with some vampire friends he should not have to!

    “But he can also summon atronachs, dragons and deadra”

    Can he actually summon dragons, like out of thin air? I thought he had to call them?

    ” he can also make immortal people mortal”

    Really? did not know about this one, either missed it in the game or its in the lore, either way sounds good since apparently all the mages are just as immortal as the vamps.

  84. Amm0vamp1r3 April 21, 2015 at 8:09 pm -      #84

    Ah yes technically the dragon are a call so scratch that

    As for making immortal to a mortal, yes I forgot the name of the shout but it’s the one the humans made to combat the alduin/dragons

  85. Limbo Lowk April 21, 2015 at 8:14 pm -      #85

    “It was built to handle energy that turned people into nukes and she hit it with her own brand of magic.”

    There is no energy turning people into nukes. They are using the people’s energy to make nuke level blasts and firing it. Pandora was just to much for it to handle and overloaded it. It shown in her last appearance that at peak she has fired city with lightning and blown up a planet so the capacity for that level of power is understandable.
    ===
    Gwen Banish Charmcaster in one of their recent fight in Omniverse. So she if she get the the chance it is something that she would do.
    ===
    “Well like I said, enough for its “magic” to dispel the barriers.”

    But it doesn’t really give much on how powerful the barriers were in the first place.
    ===
    “I could have sworn I mentioned how it did little to stop shazam earlier despite spamming bullets at him, in the trinity war?”

    But it did hurt him and keep him back not once but twice.
    ===
    “I am still waiting for feats on what her guns have actually “pierced” that can be gauged in pascals of pressure.”

    The knife that cut spectre is the same power she puts into her guns. This is the same guy who is on the same level as blight who wasn’t pierces by a strike amp with near nuclear force.
    She managed to harm both.
    The knife also pierced evil aquaman.
    Atlanteans are surprising resilient
    static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11112/111124701/3561080-aquaman+%239+-+page+12.jpg
    They are resistant to being shot in the head.
    ===
    “You missed the fact that he needed to find an amp to boost its power to get through it. Considering Kains sword swings excert crazy pressure, the barrier would have to be stronger than anything I have seen so far from any attack on the mages yet to tank it.”

    He also get locked in by gated door so it could be that strong. Pandora shielding against something that blew up a building. Gwen’s took an explosion that took out half a mile. They should be fine.
    And again didn’t immediately dispel the barrier either.
    ===
    “Not sure Kain ever “sleeps” or even has the physical processes to do so”

    Did he awake after some time in blood omen 2(They only one that I’ve played lol).
    And had a dream. He might not need to but he can.
    ===
    “massive difference between them beyond them having different names.”

    That one type of barrier was made using blessed magic. The other apparently weren’t so obviously it doesn’t work on some things. In that feat they made a clear cut point that it was the interaction between the two type of magic that allowed it to cut down the barrier.
    Mana isn’t made of blessed or holy anything. Of course Anodite can control or absorb other forms of energy they don’t really have anything like a blessed or holy.

    See if this were someone like Phantom Stranger I;d agree, that would probably take down his barrier since is power would actual fall under EC with that type but that is the case with hers.
    ===
    “As you said, it does not tkae “more” than a second to speak and raise your hand but they need to do it in .2 seconds.”

    So Pandora and Gwen are fine. Now I need to find something for Molly. Winter power amps Dresden above normal human level. He was able to raises his hand and a barrier. She now the same as him except higher. Would that work?
    ===
    “it sort of explodes into smoke and disapears, its power is still gone after being struck. Kain can move his sword in a “blur” of slashes so as soon as its gone, he would be on them.”

    The time it takes to dispel would be more then enough time for really any of the mages to bring up another.
    ===
    “Which post was this again? I dont recall seeing her teleporting others in the scene.”

    Post #73 second scan. the two up on the rack to her sides.
    ===
    “looks like she got it up just as the missle exploded.”

    I have had to stare pasused slow-mo and review that video several times to the point I’m tired of seeing it. The thing explodes and the barrier isn’t up when it does.
    ===
    “The resulting energy she released was not a nuke, the facility seemed to be falling apart for some time.”

    because they were trying to control it after she had done it. They managed a temporary fix but had to get the powers of gods to actually stop hit.
    ===
    “battle she mentioned against the Justice league.”

    She did it during meeting between the Justice league and Justice league of america.
    comicnewbies.files.wordpress.com/2014/12/the-traitor-in-the-justice-league-1.jpg
    An event that happened after they met Pandora.

  86. Amm0vamp1r3 April 21, 2015 at 8:22 pm -      #86

    Dragonrend, the name implies that it only works on dragons but I’m not sure if that’s the case id have to look

    But basically I learned a lot more about the dragon born

    forums.spacebattles.com/threads/what-is-the-strongest-thing-that-a-full-powered-dragonborn-skyrim-can-defeat.335386/

  87. Limbo Lowk April 21, 2015 at 8:53 pm -      #87

    Cool, one of my intention was making where Kain did solo but wasn’t stomped.
    Whatever the outcome I’m satisfied.

  88. Limbo Lowk April 21, 2015 at 8:59 pm -      #88

    Also don’t think Dragonrend will work. It forces you to understand the concept of mortality. Essentially this is a mind fuck for Dragons who just can’t fathom it.
    The mages have already experienced being mortal before.

  89. Klondike Bar April 21, 2015 at 9:14 pm -      #89

    I was just talking about this in the other thread but here, maybe, this could work. AmmoVamp said that Kain drains to much blood for the victim to survive usually but do you think that ES restoration spells could heal him fast enough?

  90. Amm0vamp1r3 April 21, 2015 at 9:18 pm -      #90

    Well that’s true, I never thought of it like that. So basically if you’ve been immortal your whole life if could work but if you were mortal but changed immortal it won’t work because the idea of mortality is known to you. That’s what you’re saying right?

    Still to add to the power of the Dragonborn

    He can make shields that absorb magic when struck by it
    Repel the undead and make circles that the undead can’t enter or shouldn’t be able to enter
    He has reaction speed to the point that people are moving in slow motion
    Walk around with hundreds of pounds unhindered

    He can detect life but not undead unless he’s using vampire senses

  91. Neon Lord April 21, 2015 at 9:33 pm -      #91

    “Walk around with hundreds of pounds unhindered”

    That one is probably a game mechanic…Infinitely sized-pockets and that jazz.

  92. Limbo Lowk April 21, 2015 at 10:14 pm -      #92

    “The dragon born is the Swiss Army knife of the team.”

    I think he shares that with Kain. Apparently vamps normally come in two flavor: Weak and omg why can you do all this stuff?
    ===
    I think Molly could be a good buffer against the other to keep them busy while the heavy hitter duke it out.
    She has used invisibility to play bullfighter with a superhuman before. Waiting for it to get close then disappearing just as it hit to make it look like she teleporting. Now that she has the illusions she doesn’t even have to put herself at risk and could just spawn/despawn the duplicates. Meanwhile hiding her and Tam somewhere else giving him time cast some spells.

    Been a while since I played, Does DB ever show any defense to mind attack? Beside the illusions she is capable of messing with your mind. Without a solid mental defense she could get him to either attack one of his allies or kill himself.
    ===
    Also, holy shit Tam. Why is no one debating for him.
    “Then Szass Tam stepped into the doorway. A red halo of protective power outlined his thin frame, and a blade blacker than night hovered before him. Malark recognized that magic as well. The flying sword was a sort of mobile wound in space, and its slightest touch would rip him—or a big piece of him—out of the mortal world.”
    That is a pretty good way to get through durability. Don’t cut through you enemies just cut through the space itself. Dresden files has something like that but thats for ripping holes into another dimension.

  93. Amm0vamp1r3 April 21, 2015 at 10:25 pm -      #93

    @Lowk

    Nope, I don’t believe any of the vampires have resistance to illusions. DB is a practitioner but has never been hit with illusions to say he has resistance, Dracula hasn’t had to go against illusions either neither has Kain but I’m not 100% sure about Lestat

    Yeah I’ve heard of that sword before I was sure rookie would have brought it up by now

  94. Limbo Lowk April 21, 2015 at 10:39 pm -      #94

    Must have been in one of those wall of quotes that I’m just getting to reading.
    Molly could make that thing invisible. I wonder if he can fire that out. If not maybe Gwen or Pandora could toss him at the enemy or maybe wield him like a sword. He’s durable, I bet he could take it.

  95. Amm0vamp1r3 April 21, 2015 at 10:59 pm -      #95

    Yeah she could do that

    Also Dracula hasn’t been put forth either

    He can teleport, hasn’t been shown how far he can teleport though

    Weapons: the life for attack blood whip, the 1000+ degree chaos claws and the life force sucking void sword.

    Vampire powers, mist form which he can change how dense it is from going through people to being able to carry someone into the air. Summoning bats to use as weapons, bats which can bite through steel armor.

    Durability, not sure he was able to take falling from high in the atmosphere with no damage, a big explosion again with no damage but he also has been shown to be pierced by metal and knocked out hitting the ground by being propelled fast enough. He’s highly resistant to holy

    I’ll have to finish this post later, typing on my phone is annoying

  96. AbsoluteZero April 22, 2015 at 12:25 am -      #96

    On the topic of Lestat’s ability to break through illusion and deception, he’s managed to break through spells cast on him by the Vampire Armand, who uses his raw power to draw those who want to die to him, to die. Lestat was also capable of seeing through, and breaking illusions cast by Memnoch (The Devil.)

    While not capable of teleportation, he has been noted as casually moving far faster than the human eye can follow, I can cite numerous cases where he’s pursued his targets through the streets, appearing behind them and letting them flee.

    Next. Lestat’s power is at least on par with the Vampire Khayman. Khayman is stated as being able to lift a car over his head one handed. Much like Lestat, Khayman also possesses the ability to kill with his thoughts, as well as cause his enemies to explode into fire by igniting their bloodstream. While early on, this ability only worked on Vampires, it was re-written that the gift of flame was seperate to the killing gift. Lestat’s immense level of power comes from the fact that he’s fed repeatedly on Akasha, the first and oldest vampire. He was also trained in the use of these powers by her.

    Lestat is intensely telepathic, capable of reading minds for blocks around his location, even going so far as to leaf through their memories at his leisure. While he doesn’t use this ability constantly, he does use it for hunting.

    Lestat, when out of his body, is completely capable of ejecting others from their bodies and taking over theirs. He was required to learn this in order to steal his body back. Noting that while it took him a couple of attempts to get into his body, his sheer astral presence was enough to throw his, (Immensely strong) body into walls with each attempt.

    Lestat has been depicted as being shot, and not slowing down. He’s been stabbed, poisoned, and submitted to the light of the sun. He’s flown directly at the sun, hitting a sub-orbital area, before being caught in the flame, and falling all the way to earth. He left a crater, and got a tan from the experience.

    Why is Lestat incapable of instantly thinking any of his adversaries dead? Do they have defenses against having their internal organs explode? The blood ignite in their veins? I don’t think Lestat as being able to solo this, but he’s far more powerful than he’s being made out. He’s also likely the -last- person that the opposing team would target as a threat.

    According to the basic information rule, the other team knows they’re against vampires. The sun has just set. You go for the threats that are largest. Kain and the Dragonborn win that just by their appearence. Lestat is a golden haired, blue eyed man who cares far too much about how he looks. What’s to stop him from bursting the hearts of the first person he sees? He sure won’t be the first person targetted. I don’t doubt Kain would be better once the fight has started, but underestimating Lestat is a poor idea.

    Lestat has stated he has to carefully modulate his voice, because if he doesn’t, it would burst the eardrums of those who heard him.

    Also. Lestat is capable of entrancing people with a look, and with his voice. A supernatural form of seduction. While I doubt any member of the opposing team would be completely taken in by this, hesitation alone would result in their internal organs exploding.

    I don’t believe this is Kain VS Mages, afterall.

  97. Limbo Lowk April 22, 2015 at 1:29 am -      #97

    “Do they have defenses against having their internal organs explode? The blood ignite in their veins?”

    Gwen is an anodite. A being of energy. Sooo yeah.
    Pandora is immortal. Molly is immortal. They will heal.
    Tam apparently is undead or something and can still function even as he mutilated as well.
    ===
    “who uses his raw power to draw those who want to die to him, to die.”

    Molly’s illusion don’t really effect you so their is no breaking out of it. They are more like projections or a hologram.
    Though that could help if she ever gets him under control.
    ===
    “He’s also likely the -last- person that the opposing team would target as a threat”

    They’ve got two people that can read people, Most can sense power, and one person who can tell when someone is searching telepathically.
    ===
    “Lestat is a golden haired, blue eyed man who cares far too much about how he looks.”

    Gwen met an energy vampire like that once. He could literally drain you to death and she is a source of endless energy.
    Pandora has dealing with constantine, blond hair smooth talking mage. Also fairly dangerous and ruthless magician.
    Molly has dealing with the white court. Think twilight without the sparkles. They are literally like the movie star/models of the various vampires. She has to constantly be on guard against Thomas and he’s her teacher brother. Hell her new boss is supposed to be gorgeous and she could probably freeze you solid from the inside out with a glare.

    Pretty much everyone on team 1 deals with the pretty person who don’t look to dangerous but turns out are. I doubt they’ll be underestimating Lestat.

  98. AbsoluteZero April 22, 2015 at 1:47 am -      #98

    To saying that they’ll recover from their organs exploding, sure. But one moment. I’ll cite how the incineration functions.

    “Azim’s head exploded, Smoke and flame poured out of his ruptured skull. His eyes turned black. With a flash, his entire frame ignited; yet he went down in a human posture, his fist raised against her, his legs curling as if he meant to try and stand again. Then his form disappeared utterly in a great orange blaze.” Queen Of The Damned. Page 339.

    Azim was a two and a half thousand year old immortal, instantly obliterated. As for reading people, Lestat has been stated as being unreadable, capable of completely disconnecting himself from telepathic searches. As for projections or holograms, Memnoch used those to try and disorient and intimidate Lestat. Dropping him into an endless darkness. Lestat responded by attacking, and physically overpowering Memnoch, able to see him through the illusion.

    Also, if you’re wanting to use the, “Pandora is immortal, Molly is immortal, they will heal” as a defense. I’d like to note that Lestat is also immortal. It’s been stated that he could be melted into a puddle, and still live. He could heal from that state. Or just steal someone else’s body.

    Lestat is so throughly immortal, every known method of destroying vampires in his universe has failed to destroy him. He went through a period of attempting to commit suicide out of sheer curiousity.

  99. Limbo Lowk April 22, 2015 at 2:40 am -      #99

    Wow that might actually take Molly out for a while. Pandora how ever, heals like deadpool and is a bit more durable then others.

    “I’d like to note that Lestat is also immortal. It’s been stated that he could be melted into a puddle, and still live. He could heal from that state. Or just steal someone else’s body.”

    Has he ever had his soul destroyed? Stealing someone else’s body may not be an option in this case.
    And what about BFR, if he was say teleported into another dimension or out near the sun. Could he get back? What about being paralyzed a and unable to move?
    ===
    “As for projections or holograms, Memnoch used those to try and disorient and intimidate Lestat. Dropping him into an endless darkness. Lestat responded by attacking, and physically overpowering Memnoch, able to see him through the illusion.”

    So no darkness. What about actual blinding light and deafening noises.
    Also gwen so called illusions are solid?
    They can also actually blind him by physically via one of Pandora’s spells.
    ===
    “Lestat has been stated as being unreadable, capable of completely disconnecting himself from telepathic searches.”

    She doesn’t have to search for him telepathically. And Pandora seems to also be capable of reading your life through other mean.
    That’d be a good defense if they were trying to find him but it doesn’t really help him if they attack him mentally when he right in front of them.

  100. Limbo Lowk April 22, 2015 at 2:53 am -      #100

    Also on the illusions breaking how did it go. Like a no sold or a had to fight through it sort of thing?
    Got any qoutes?

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