Star Destroyer Vs Protoss Carrier

Star Destroyer Vs Protoss Carrier

For the sake of this battle, the vehicles that each craft transports are to be included as factors t the outcome.

Both bring a lot to the table, but the Protoss Carrier is more nimble which could give it the upper hand.

How does this play out?

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147 Comments on "Star Destroyer Vs Protoss Carrier"

  1. marche November 28, 2008 at 5:35 pm -      #1

    well i heard star destroyers usauly carry 72 tie fighters,in star craft the carriers only have like 6,although i dont know if thats a game mechanic.

  2. AlphaCommando November 28, 2008 at 11:47 pm -      #2

    I’m sure it is, however (except the Psy “tech”) I think the SW universe is technically more advanced than the Protoss (especially in a few areas). Considering all a Carrier has is fighters while a SD is bristling with weapons and covered in incredibly durable armor, and has fighters….I’m thinking the SD would come out on top fairly easily…..

  3. L-W November 29, 2008 at 3:17 am -      #3

    Despite being heavily armoured, the Protoss Carrier has no weapons batteries of any kind; and thus is reliant upon the support of Protoss interceptor craft, of which the carrier only fields a tiny fleet of six. In fleet combat it requires auxiliary support from Frigates and Cruisers who provide the majority of close quarters defence and firepower.

    The Star Destroyer not only carries a contingent of 72 fighters, but can provide overwhelming firepower with the assistance of several dozen Turbolasers and an anti-ship Ion Cannon capable of rendering the Protoss fleet inert. In combat it would decimate the Protoss carrier easily.

  4. Matapiojo December 1, 2008 at 9:57 am -      #4

    Im inclined to agree with L-W.

  5. spoa December 4, 2008 at 1:45 am -      #5

    the star destroyer… but if you look at the sheer difrence in size if the protoss carrior was of the same size…….a sad day for those 72 ties

  6. DeathBite66 January 23, 2009 at 8:19 pm -      #6

    well yea the star destroyer may win but i heard that starcraft 2 it whent from 6 to like 8 or 10 and it has more power put it is longer to make and more resores

    but the carrer has a upper hand why if one or it ship get blown up it can make a new one fast

  7. DeathBite66 January 23, 2009 at 8:19 pm -      #7

    miss spell is why if one of it ship not or

  8. Shadow Archon September 8, 2009 at 8:53 pm -      #8

    The Protoss Carrier can not take it on by it self, but it can call for help.

    The 8 interceptors is just a game mechanic, they have more than that. Some Carriers have weapons, it just depends on if its a normal carrier, a carrier with weapons, or a Super Carrier. They do have scouts, corsairs, and arbiters in Carriers as well. The Arbiters can just recall a protoss fleet for help. Its more of Protoss fleet vs Star Destroyer, which I think the Protoss would win.

  9. Shadow Archon December 2, 2009 at 7:24 pm -      #9

    Actually, if we are to assume it is one of these few “Super” Carriers, it has this kind of firepower: img89.imageshack.us/img89/122/bdzprotossstyle.jpg

    [quote= Liberty’s Crusade, Chapter 8]A flash blossomed to one side of the planetary disk, and Mike knew that the Protoss had arrived. Their lightning ships warped into being. A flash of blue-white electricity, and then they were there. The golden carriers with their moth attendants, and metallic bat-winged creations that wove among the larger ships. They were breathtaking and deadly, forces of war raised to the level of an art form.
    Mengsk spoke softly into his throat mike, and Mike could feel the engines engage. The terrorist leader was prepared to get out at the first sign that the Protoss had noticed them.
    He need not have worried. The Protoss were completely intent on the diseased planet beneath them. Hatchways opened up in the bottoms of the larger ships, and great beams of energy, so intense as to be colorless, lanced downward toward the surface. The aliens laid down a withering barrage against the planet beneath.
    Where the energy beams struck, they burned. The sky itself curdled as the beams pierced through the atmospheric envelope. Air itself was torn away from the planet by the force of the blows.
    And where the beams struck the surface, they erupted, boiling the ground where they struck, uprooting both the creep-infested lands and those that had not yet been infected. Deadly rainbow radiation, more brilliant than Mike had ever seen, spiraled out from the impact points, churning earth and water mercilessly, distorting the matter of the planet itself.
    Then other ships began firing thinner beams with surgical accuracy, adding to the barrage in places. The cities, Mike realized. They were targeting the cities and making sure that nothing could survive there. Any place of human settlement. Including, he knew, the Jacobs Installation itself.
    They had cut their timing very close indeed, he thought, and his stomach gave an uneasy lurch.
    One of the pulsing beams punched through the crust itself, and the ground erupted in a volcanic upwelling. Magma pushed to the surface, consuming everything that had been uprooted by the energy beams. Most of the world’s atmosphere was burning now, torn away from the orb in a veil that trailed it in orbit, and what was left spiraled in hurricanes and tornadoes, until destroyed by more beams.
    Now red volcanic glows covered the northern hemisphere of Mar Sara like welts. The remainder of the land heaved in a deadly rainbow. Nothing could survive the assault, human or otherwise.
    “Exterminators,” said Mike softly. “They’re cosmic exterminators.”[quote]

  10. Corran_Star December 2, 2009 at 7:57 pm -      #10

    The quote sounds like it is referencing the entire fleet. Perhaps a whole fleet (which I would assume contains warships, not just carriers) can boil the planet, but Star Destroyers are tools of orbital bombardment all the time too. And ImpStar Deuces are even better equipped, armed, and shielded than the first Star Destroyers.

  11. Shadow Archon December 2, 2009 at 8:11 pm -      #11

    “The quote sounds like it is referencing the entire fleet. Perhaps a whole fleet (which I would assume contains warships, not just carriers) can boil the planet, but Star Destroyers are tools of orbital bombardment all the time too. And ImpStar Deuces are even better equipped, armed, and shielded than the first Star Destroyers.”

    It quotes a single shot though=[Where the energy beams struck, they burned. The sky itself curdled as the beams pierced through the atmospheric envelope. Air itself was torn away from the planet by the force of the blows.And where the beams struck the surface, they erupted, boiling the ground where they struck, uprooting both the creep-infested lands and those that had not yet been infected. Deadly rainbow radiation, more brilliant than Mike had ever seen, spiraled out from the impact points, churning earth and water mercilessly, distorting the matter of the planet itself.]

    It also states that the Carriers did this-[The golden carriers with their moth attendants, and metallic bat-winged creations that wove among the larger ships. They were breathtaking and deadly, forces of war raised to the level of an art form.
    Mengsk spoke softly into his throat mike, and Mike could feel the engines engage. The terrorist leader was prepared to get out at the first sign that the Protoss had noticed them.
    He need not have worried. The Protoss were completely intent on the diseased planet beneath them. Hatchways opened up in the bottoms of the larger ships, and great beams of energy, so intense as to be colorless, lanced downward toward the surface. The aliens laid down a withering barrage against the planet beneath.]

    The Carrier has the firepower to pierce the mantel of a planet in a single hit. Ive heard it takes hours of bombarding the planet for Star Destroyers to do that amount of damage to a planet.

  12. Inarto December 2, 2009 at 8:31 pm -      #12

    But in the quote it only refferences to the larger ships that the carriers are accompanying have the beam weapon the carrier’s themselves just have their strike craft ready, likely to intercept any enemy forces that try to attack the larger ships.

  13. Shadow Archon December 2, 2009 at 8:47 pm -      #13

    “But in the quote it only refferences to the larger ships that the carriers are accompanying have the beam weapon the carrier’s themselves just have their strike craft ready, likely to intercept any enemy forces that try to attack the larger ships.”

    “The golden carriers with their moth attendants, and metallic bat-winged creations that wove among the larger ships. They were breathtaking and deadly, forces of war raised to the level of an art form.”

    It is only talking about the metallic bat-winged creations. “metallic bat-winged creations that wove among the larger ships” Notice it says that, only referring to this ship after separating the carriers and their moth attendants with the letter and. Also, the image shows Carriers firing on the planet, so one cannot really argue it.

  14. Shadow Archon December 2, 2009 at 8:48 pm -      #14

    With the word “and.” Thats what I meant.

  15. Skrunks December 2, 2009 at 8:58 pm -      #15

    “But in the quote it only refferences to the larger ships that the carriers are accompanying have the beam weapon the carrier’s themselves just have their strike craft ready, likely to intercept any enemy forces that try to attack the larger ships.”

    Carriers ARE the larger ships. They are the largest ships in the Protoss Navy. They are the capital ships, the counterpart to the Terran Battlecruiser. It’s from these ships that the Protoss fleets are commanded from. The only Protoss ships that are larger or, well, Super Carriers and Motherships, but at the time of that quote, no Motherships were active in the Protoss Navy. It’s a good thing too, from what I understand of a Protoss Mothership, it would wtfpwn the ISD.

  16. Shadow Archon December 2, 2009 at 9:10 pm -      #16

    They do have other ships as shown by that picture though.

  17. Inarto December 2, 2009 at 10:40 pm -      #17

    @ Shadow Archon
    Oops my bad misread the quote

    @ Skrunks
    Thanks for the info. All I really knew about carriers is that they would always be my downfall in a multiplayer game. That is if i wasnt zerg or templar rushed.
    My suckiness at starcraft aside I think the match could be won by the ISD if it gets the first shot in as the ion cannons of the star destroyer can disable enemy ships, allowing boarding craft to release troops inside the carrier.

  18. Shadow Archon December 3, 2009 at 9:41 am -      #18

    “Thanks for the info. All I really knew about carriers is that they would always be my downfall in a multiplayer game. That is if i wasnt zerg or templar rushed.
    My suckiness at starcraft aside I think the match could be won by the ISD if it gets the first shot in as the ion cannons of the star destroyer can disable enemy ships, allowing boarding craft to release troops inside the carrier.”

    A single Ion cannon is not going to disable the Protoss Carrier. We do know that the EMP created by Terran Nukes are not strong enough to mess with their technology, the Terrans have a specifically powerful EMP missle where the pulse is actually visible, which still does not shut a Carrier, it only loses shields. They have only used this in the game though, so take it with a pinch of salt and skepticism.

    Also, why are you so mean to the Stormies? Its a Protoss vessel. There basic infantry are like Force users, but better.( Of course I mean the average ones though, and they are better than the mass producible Shadow Troopers from JK II Outcast..) Some of their infantry are threats to capital ships because of their psionic storms(mainly because of a stupid author’s too literal look on game mechanics, but hey, its canon.)

  19. Inarto December 15, 2009 at 12:05 am -      #19

    The battle between Protoss infantry vs storm troopers is not as one sided as you think. Im gonna assume that n the books the spikes fired from the C-14 gauss rifle still damage protoss infantry sheilding. One spike is capable of penetrating two inches of steel plating. A blaster bolt from an E-11 is capable of blowing a hole in durasteel which is 300,000 times stronger than steel. Also the stormies will be accompanied by AT-ST’s and the dreaded AT-AT’s which have much more powerful weaponry. As for the SD’s ion weapons it is armed with 60 ion cannon’s and 2 heavy ion cannon turrets I think they could disable the Carrier in a volley or two.

  20. Forward Unto Dawn December 15, 2009 at 12:13 am -      #20

    That is if the Protoss don’t bring the AT-ATs to heel with Templar Psionic Storms. They are absolutely devastating (I OWND a human army with that.)

  21. midnite marauder December 15, 2009 at 12:34 am -      #21

    @Inarto-It may be true but take into consideration that a single zealot can slaughter an entire sqaud of marines in the books. Their bullets can pierce their armour the problem is getting through the shielding which is very tough.

  22. Inarto December 15, 2009 at 5:19 pm -      #22

    I think you misunderstood. I was saying that if the gaus spikes could damage
    the sheilds used by zealots then the blaster bolts would likely break through
    through them in short order as it is much more powerful. The E-11 is rapid fire
    aswell putting the zealots at a severe disadvantage as they have no ranged
    weapons. As for using psionic storm against the AT-AT’s that would be a really
    bad idea as it would end up tearing the entire ship apart.

  23. Shadow Archon December 19, 2009 at 1:09 pm -      #23

    “The battle between Protoss infantry vs storm troopers is not as one sided as you think. Im gonna assume that n the books the spikes fired from the C-14 gauss rifle still damage protoss infantry sheilding. One spike is capable of penetrating two inches of steel plating. A blaster bolt from an E-11 is capable of blowing a hole in durasteel which is 300,000 times stronger than steel. Also the stormies will be accompanied by AT-ST’s and the dreaded AT-AT’s which have much more powerful weaponry. As for the SD’s ion weapons it is armed with 60 ion cannon’s and 2 heavy ion cannon turrets I think they could disable the Carrier in a volley or two.”

    It was probably talking about neo-steel, not regular steel. Also, proof that Durasteel is 300,000 times stronger than steel? As for Protoss shield strengths:

    [quote=Revelations]The small aliens attacked, but the Protoss killed all three of them. The large alien swept its massive tail, knocking a Protoss across the room and through the paristeel plating on the far wall.

    […]

    The wounded alien tried to leave the room, but the first Protoss warrior got up and came at it. The alien fired a hundred needles at it, and the Protoss was soon covered by dozens of wounds. It faltered slightly under the influence of the spine’s poison. The Protoss and the large alien then engaged in hand-to-hand combat, as the alien had no projectiles left. The Protoss thrust its energy blade into the beast’s soft underbelly, causing purple blood to spatter. Then the alien was lifted off the ground and thrown into the wall.[quote]

    Heres how damaging Hydralisk needles are:

    [quote=Speed of Darkness]Ardo fell back through the hatchway just as the Hydralisks attacked. The spines shot through the open hatch, slicing through the outer layers of his combat suit as though it were cotton cloth. Searing pain erupted in his leg, a quill having passed completely through and lodging in a neosteel beam.
    —————————————
    Breanne pitched back from the gun port. A single spine from a Hydralisk had found its way through the port opening, slamming through the faceplate of the lieutenant’s combat suit. Hideously, it passed through her head and pinned her combat helmet to a neosteel support. Lieutenant L. Z. Breanne hung there, still standing.[quote]

    Another scene:

    [quote=SotX]Lieutenant Scott followed his troops into the convoluted passageways, and it wasn’t long before they
    encountered a firefight of their own. Inside the topmost tunnel three powerful Protoss Zealots loomed out at them, eyes blazing, mouthless faces giving them a demonic appearance.

    “Look out!” Scott shouted.

    The Zealots raised their strangely gloved hands and activated deadly Psionic Blades. The Marines were already opening fire. Their Gauss rifles sent out blasts that drove the Protoss back, even as the Zealots slashed with their crackling scythes.

    Lieutenant Scott hadn’t had time to know all the men assigned to him for this mission, so he didn’t immediately recall the names of the three Marines who fell screaming. While the fallen soldiers’ Impalers still sputtered energy bursts into the translucent wall, the lieutenant motioned one of his Goliaths forward.

    The Goliath advanced, his armor fully powered, his twin thirty-millimeter autocannons blazing. The weapon blasted without pause until the nearest Zealot toppled backward, dead.

    Six Firebats converged on the other two enemy fanatics. Flames erupted from their Perdition weapons. In a last struggle, one Protoss Zealot killed a Firebat with his Psionic Blade, but then the flamethrowers crisped the surviving two aliens. They all fell dead next to the three Marines they had slaughtered.[/quote]

    There were 14 marines all firing on the Zealots, as shown by these messages after this scene:

    [quote]The other two Dragoons, though, were able to fire their bolts of antiparticles sheathed in a psychically charged field. Two Firebats, three Marines, and one Goliath buckled, their bodies pummeled into jelly by the force.
    —————–
    Three more Marines—now no more than bloody pincushions wearing uniforms—sprawled dead. Others ran forward, howling for revenge, opening up their Gauss rifles, screaming. Lieutenant Scott raised his weapon to his armor-padded shoulder and joined the battle.
    —————–
    Lieutenant Scott watched his team being decimated, but he did not call for a retreat. He continued to pump rounds into the Ultralisk as it turned toward the final, damaged Goliath. But the powerful armored trooper and the last five Marines poured weapons fire into the lumbering hulk until finally the monster dropped in a heap, crushing one of the wounded and moaning Marines on the floor.
    [quote]

    Zealots can take alot of damage. Plus, they will have Dragoons-or worse, Immortals- to deal with the Stormies. Not only that, Protoss can convert their bodies into energy for micro seconds at a time.

    [quote=SC2.com]”Some zealots have even developed the ability to turn their body into pure energy for a few microseconds. This allows them to move at lightning-fast speeds and strike suddenly against an enemy that thinks they are out of range.”[quote]

    Here is a calculation from Gradius at SCL:”If we take all this literally, the speed of lightning is estimated to be half the speed light. Moving at that speed for a few microseconds (let’s say 3), will let the zealot zip across 500 meters in 3 millionth of a second.”

    Yeah, Stormies go bye bye, especially with backup Protoss units like Reavers and Dragoons(or Immortals- which can survive megaton nukes.). Im not even going to mention the bloody Colossus.

    As for the Ion cannons, your going to have to give me a reasonable calculation for me to determine if it can or cannot, and IIRC the Ion Cannons are on top of the Star Destroyer?

    “I think you misunderstood. I was saying that if the gaus spikes could damage
    the sheilds used by zealots then the blaster bolts would likely break through
    through them in short order as it is much more powerful. The E-11 is rapid fire
    aswell putting the zealots at a severe disadvantage as they have no ranged
    weapons. As for using psionic storm against the AT-AT’s that would be a really
    bad idea as it would end up tearing the entire ship apart.”

    If they can even hit the Zealots, and I think you are underestimating the Zealot’s shields.

    -_- Did you just admit that High Templar psionic storms would rip apart a Star Destroyer?

  24. Inarto December 19, 2009 at 4:57 pm -      #24

    “It has been calculated to be approximately 300,000 times stronger than steel.”
    There ya go straight from wookiepedia
    How strong is neo steel exactly anyway?

    Out of curiosity have any of the forces you have mentioned been shown to actually be part of a carriers crew? I thought the protoss just warped from one planet to the next.

    As for imperial ion weaponry I was unable to find any numbers for you but I did find some info from wookie describing its projectile.

    “These particles seriously interfered with the operation of electronics and computer systems, shorting circuits and often disabling them outright. The actual physical damage would sometimes result in fused joints on machines, due to the heat produced.” Hope that helps

    The two heavy ion cannons flank the tower along with 4 heavy turbolasers as fort he rest your geuss is as good as mine

    No I was reffering to if a high templar was going to use it inside the carrier to destroy the AT-AT’s

  25. Shadow Archon December 20, 2009 at 1:27 pm -      #25

    ““It has been calculated to be approximately 300,000 times stronger than steel.”
    There ya go straight from wookiepedia
    How strong is neo steel exactly anyway?”

    Can you provide the source Wookiepedia is using? Sometimes, wikis are wrong.

    We do not know how strong Neosteel is, just that it is stronger than regular steel. We do know that when a Star Destroyer crashed on a planet in Rouge Squadron 2, it was torn up pretty bad, but a Terran Battlecruiser, after having taken more damage than the Star Destroyer, seemed to come out a little better than the Star Destroyer. The Star Destroyer also landed in water while the Battlecruiser hit rock.

    “Out of curiosity have any of the forces you have mentioned been shown to actually be part of a carriers crew? I thought the protoss just warped from one planet to the next.”

    They have been shown to have these troops in their Carriers in Shadow of the Xel’naga, a very terrible book.

    “Hope that helps

    The two heavy ion cannons flank the tower along with 4 heavy turbolasers as fort he rest your geuss is as good as mine”

    I doubt its going to do much to the Carrier, maybe the shields, but not really anything else.

    “No I was reffering to if a high templar was going to use it inside the carrier to destroy the AT-AT’s”

    One, how is the AT-AT going to get inside the Carrier?

    Two, you do know that psionic storms can be controlled, right? If they are not, they devastate entire planets.

    Three, that would not destroy the carrier if it was controlled.

    Four, it would mess up the Star Destroyer if used by a Protoss boarding party.

  26. Skrunks December 20, 2009 at 2:53 pm -      #26

    “These particles seriously interfered with the operation of electronics and computer systems, shorting circuits and often disabling them outright. The actual physical damage would sometimes result in fused joints on machines, due to the heat produced.” Hope that helps”

    That’s all well and dandy, but Protoss don’t use electronics. All of their technology is psychically powered. The Ion cannons actually wouldn’t do anything.

    “One, how is the AT-AT going to get inside the Carrier?
    Two, you do know that psionic storms can be controlled, right? If they are not, they devastate entire planets.
    Three, that would not destroy the carrier if it was controlled.
    Four, it would mess up the Star Destroyer if used by a Protoss boarding party.”

    5: Psychic Storms target the minds of the crew unless directed at a ship or something. One Psychic Storm and the entire crew of the Star Destroyer is mind-raped.

  27. Shadow Archon December 20, 2009 at 4:07 pm -      #27

    “That’s all well and dandy, but Protoss don’t use electronics. All of their technology is psychically powered. The Ion cannons actually wouldn’t do anything.”

    Psionic Crystals to be exact.

    “5: Psychic Storms target the minds of the crew unless directed at a ship or something. One Psychic Storm and the entire crew of the Star Destroyer is mind-raped.”

    It depends sometimes, but most of the times we have seen them, they are targeted at the ship and the physical properties of the enemy, not the crew’s minds.

  28. Inarto December 20, 2009 at 7:49 pm -      #28

    “Protoss eventually learned to create inorganic devices which can tap into similar processes to power shields, weapons and robots. The energies are neither truly technological or psionic, but are vulnerable to EMP effects.” Ion blasts are said to have similar effects on technology so that means trouble for the toss. There are a total of 60 individual heavy ion cannons not counting the ones positioned near the tower. If one EMP can disable its sheilds then why couldnt 62 ion cannons disable the entire ship? As for transporting the AT-AT the ISD has barges specifically designed for the task.
    Here are the sources for the article on durasteel
    Star Wars Sourcebook
    Star Wars Sourcebook, Second Edition
    Star Wars Gamemaster Handbook, Second Edition
    Cracken’s Threat Dossier
    “Alien Anthology Addendum” – Star Wars Gamer 7
    Kessel: Hell in Space on Wizards.com (article)
    Star Wars Trading Card Game – The Empire Strikes Back (Card: Darth Vader)
    Star Wars Trading Card Game – The Empire Strikes Back (Card: Armor Plating)
    Who’s Who: Imperial Grand Admirals
    The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia
    Rebellion Era Campaign Guide
    Retrieved from “http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Durasteel”
    How big is a battle cruiser exactly?

  29. Shadow Archon December 20, 2009 at 8:05 pm -      #29

    ““Protoss eventually learned to create inorganic devices which can tap into similar processes to power shields, weapons and robots. The energies are neither truly technological or psionic, but are vulnerable to EMP effects.” Ion blasts are said to have similar effects on technology so that means trouble for the toss. There are a total of 60 individual heavy ion cannons not counting the ones positioned near the tower.”

    Thats from the Starcraft wiki(which I have found faults with at sometimes, mainly the Korhal bombardment) based on game mechanics. In my travels, I have found nothing saying that the technology is powered by something vulnerable to EMPs. It would be a main tactic used by the Terrans in the EU, and its not there. Anyways, we only can go by game mechanics by that respect, so… Nukes in game produce negligible EMP effects. The EMP caused by these nukes do zip. The ones produced by the Science Vessel do affect the Protoss, but they are so powerful, that the EMP is actually visible. We have no idea how powerful it is though.

    “If one EMP can disable its sheilds then why couldnt 62 ion cannons disable the entire ship? As for transporting the AT-AT the ISD has barges specifically designed for the task.”

    Actually, depending on the energy of the Science Vessel, the shield is either disabled or hampered. You have to prove that an Ion cannon is comparable to an EMP.

    What stops the Barge from being blown out of the sky by the Carrier’s Scouts, Interceptors, Phoenixes, Corsairs, or Arbiters? How is it going to find a place to drop off the Carrier? Heck, the Arbiters in the Carrier can just recall another Protoss Fleet, than a single Star Destroyer would have to handle multiple Carriers.

    “Here are the sources for the article on durasteel
    Star Wars Sourcebook
    Star Wars Sourcebook, Second Edition
    Star Wars Gamemaster Handbook, Second Edition
    Cracken’s Threat Dossier
    “Alien Anthology Addendum” – Star Wars Gamer 7
    Kessel: Hell in Space on Wizards.com (article)
    Star Wars Trading Card Game – The Empire Strikes Back (Card: Darth Vader)
    Star Wars Trading Card Game – The Empire Strikes Back (Card: Armor Plating)
    Who’s Who: Imperial Grand Admirals
    The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia
    Rebellion Era Campaign Guide
    Retrieved from “http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Durasteel””

    I knew that, could you bring the reference material that states it being 300,000 times stronger? The wiki does not provide end notes for me to find it myself.

    “How big is a battle cruiser exactly?”

    Depends, some calculations put it at 600 to 700 meters, others show it to be over a mile. I believe one calculation put a Protoss Carrier at 3 Kilometers long.

  30. Inarto December 20, 2009 at 8:43 pm -      #30

    “Electromagnetic pulse weaponry delivered a powerful EMP which overloaded most electronic systems not specifically hardened against such an attack. The effect was somewhat similar to an ion cannon blast.” Straight from wookiepedia

    “On what kind of energy are based Protoss shields? If they are based on PSI energy, how can be possible for a Terran EMP attack to drain their energy?

    Protoss energy sources are highly esoteric because their starting point was the Protoss’ use of their own psionic powers to protect themselves; to charge their tools and weapons; and to make, manipulate, or meld matter. Over time technological advances have enabled the Protoss to mimic these psionic processes to the extent that the Protoss can now construct inorganic devices to tap into the same universal processes to power shields, drives, weapons, and robots. Thus, for example, the energy field projected by a pylon that powers Protoss structures cannot truly be called psionic in nature, just as the shields protecting a zealot are not purely technological constructs. Rather, the two processes are so closely interlinked that they are almost the same. As a result, Protoss power sources and particularly their shields are vulnerable to disruption by technological means such as EMP weapons. Similarly such power sources can be restored or recharged from artificially stored energy.”
    This is from a Q&A session with the RTS community manager. Still a game mechanic?

    If we are allowing outside help then whats stopping the ISD from calling for backup? If we go down that path we may aswell have the GE against the protoss

  31. Shadow Archon December 20, 2009 at 9:43 pm -      #31

    “This is from a Q&A session with the RTS community manager. Still a game mechanic?”

    Which one? Anyways, the effect of an EMP is similar to an Ion Cannon blast, but the Ion cannon is not similar to a nuke. You must note that the EMP only messed with the shields, nothing else was damaged.

    “If we are allowing outside help then whats stopping the ISD from calling for backup?”

    One, nothing says its not allowed.

    Two, the Protoss can instantly teleport another Protoss fleet to their location, the Imperials can’t. The Star Destroyer will be destroyed before any other Imperial force can arrive.

    “If we go down that path we may aswell have the GE against the protoss”

    No, thats not what the thread is about, and we do not know the specifics about Protoss technology to debate an entire war. We do not know their ranges, FTL speeds, or their numbers.

  32. Who? December 20, 2009 at 10:10 pm -      #32

    “If we are allowing outside help then whats stopping the ISD from calling for backup?”

    “One, nothing says its not allowed.”

    Er, the BankGambling debating rule book greatly frowns upon outside help fellas… just saying.

    And about durasteel…

    “Durasteel, the most commonly used metallic alloy used in the construction of vessels and vehicles, possesses a unique atomic structure that allows the material to remain incredibly light even in human hands, but has a structural integrity greater than most alloys available. A single cubic inch of dense and processed Durasteel has only 0.01 the equivalent mass of modern day steel (Or even Titanium) of equal density, yet it is possesses a hundred times the tensile strength.”

    – Star Wars: The Essential Guide to Vehicles and Vessels

    … this quote from the original guidebook to SW vehicles and vessels might give you some insight… hope it helps. Though it might be outdated…

  33. Inarto December 20, 2009 at 10:12 pm -      #33

    “Outside help
    Outside help is not allowed in vs matches between combatants,a leader of a team cannot call someone for help.”
    As stated in the BankGambling debating rules
    It was Q&A number 26 i believe.
    The whole point I was trying to make about the EMP is that protoss tech
    is vulnerable to weapons that are specifically designed to disable or damage electronics and computer systems such as EMP’s or ion blasts.

  34. EnigmaJ December 20, 2009 at 10:59 pm -      #34

    “No, thats not what the thread is about, and we do not know the specifics about Protoss technology to debate an entire war. We do not know their ranges, FTL speeds, or their numbers.”

    Kind of like how this thread wasn’t about Star Destroyer vs Protoss Fleet? I think what he meant was that if you insist on outside help, then the Star Destroyer could get the entire Galactic Empire to fight this ship, just as you claim this Protoss ship can call upon the resources of its entire race to destroy the Star Destroyer.

  35. Shadow Archon December 21, 2009 at 12:41 am -      #35

    Okay, I made this comment and its not showing up. I will have to rebuttal this tomorrow.

    “Kind of like how this thread wasn’t about Star Destroyer vs Protoss Fleet? I think what he meant was that if you insist on outside help, then the Star Destroyer could get the entire Galactic Empire to fight this ship, just as you claim this Protoss ship can call upon the resources of its entire race to destroy the Star Destroyer.”

    No, the Protoss are perfectly capable of “teleporting” another fleet into its midst to help it. Is that the same as calling for help which you have to “wait for them to come?” And no, its not calling upon the entire race’s resources just to fight one ship, where did that idea spring up?

  36. Shadow Archon December 21, 2009 at 11:24 am -      #36

    Here is a Battlecruiser:
    starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/File:Battlecruiser_SC-G_Art1.jpg

    Here is it crashing:
    www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNwPvVLStAQ(note: we do not know how strong the Scourge was)

    Here is the result:
    taffelhq.dk/lps/chapter6/6_17.jpg

    Here is a Imperial-II Star Destroyer:
    starwars.wikia.com/wiki/File:ISD_arrow.jpg

    Here is it crashing:
    www.youtube.com/watch?v=wM_fj1IDAuU

    Here is the result:
    starwars.wikia.com/wiki/File:BattleofKothlis.jpg
    starwars.wikia.com/wiki/File:Kothlis_battle.jpg
    www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMBwsT3KrFw

    Though I do not know about Durasteel being in a Star Destroyer, the Battle cruiser is made of Neo-Steel. I think it came out better.

    “The whole point I was trying to make about the EMP is that protoss tech
    is vulnerable to weapons that are specifically designed to disable or damage electronics and computer systems such as EMP’s or ion blasts.”

    We do not know how strong the EMP blast is though compared to an Ion bolt. Do Ion bolts cause shields on Star Wars vessels to drop instantly or mostly?

  37. Shadow Archon December 21, 2009 at 1:48 pm -      #37

    I messed up the link for the Battlecruiser crashing, here it is again:

    Here is it crashing:
    www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNwPvVLStAQ (note: we do not know how strong the Scourge was)

  38. EnigmaJ December 21, 2009 at 2:45 pm -      #38

    “And no, its not calling upon the entire race’s resources just to fight one ship, where did that idea spring up?”

    Because if you assume this Protoss Carrier can teleport another fleet, then you can also assume it can teleport all the ships in the Protoss Empire to this fight, just as the ISD can call upon the entire Imperial Navy.

    “No, the Protoss are perfectly capable of “teleporting” another fleet into its midst to help it. Is that the same as calling for help which you have to “wait for them to come?”

    Yes, its exactly the same. Difference? The amount of time it takes for it to happen. Whether this ship is phoning another ship to come help, teleporting an entire fleet against their will, or using a magic wand to transport them to its location, its still extra help. Anyways, the rule clearly stated No Extra Help. This is an ISD vs a Protoss Carrier, not an ISD vs a Protoss Fleet, so your trying to bring extra help into this fight.

  39. Shadow Archon December 21, 2009 at 3:16 pm -      #39

    “Because if you assume this Protoss Carrier can teleport another fleet, then you can also assume it can teleport all the ships in the Protoss Empire to this fight, just as the ISD can call upon the entire Imperial Navy.”

    No, it can’t teleport the entire navy to one battle, thats ridiculous to even think of, and the ISD can’t call the entire Imperial Navy.

    “Yes, its exactly the same. Difference? The amount of time it takes for it to happen. Whether this ship is phoning another ship to come help, teleporting an entire fleet against their will, or using a magic wand to transport them to its location, its still extra help. Anyways, the rule clearly stated No Extra Help.”

    So we are assuming that they are not in a combined universe of the two, and in fact have been completely separated from each other’s universe and galaxy?

    “This is an ISD vs a Protoss Carrier, not an ISD vs a Protoss Fleet, so your trying to bring extra help into this fight.”

    Okay, so its not a war situation where they have this ability?

    Its technically still a fleet vs ISD because the Carrier has a number ships inside of it that could still be counted as a fleet.

  40. Kenny C. December 21, 2009 at 3:45 pm -      #40

    So does the ISD Shadow.

    “Okay, so its not a war situation where they have this ability?’
    – Is this too hard a concept for you to understand? Each ship is completely isolated from help any of any type.

  41. Shadow Archon December 21, 2009 at 3:51 pm -      #41

    “- Is this too hard a concept for you to understand? Each ship is completely isolated from help any of any type.”

    No one stated that until they brought the rule. Every single other site does not ban this.

    “So does the ISD Shadow.”

    Only TIEs really. The Carrier has Interceptors, Scouts, Corsairs, and Arbiters. The Arbiters can cloak the fleet and trap either the ISD or the TIEs, effectively putting them out of battle until the other is destroyed.

  42. Goldman December 22, 2009 at 7:47 pm -      #42

    Either way, that carrier is screwed. What we know is that it is a single, standard carrier. No weapons except the interceptors and the other fighter craft it can carry.

    What we know is that the ISD carries more than 70 TIE Fighters and more than enough fire power to pound that carrier into oblivion.

    Even with the Arbiters cloaking the ships, I’m sure the ISD’s sensors would pick them up,, since the Terrans Missle Turrets and sensors can.

    ISD wins, carrier loses.

  43. EnigmaJ December 22, 2009 at 8:49 pm -      #43

    “No one stated that until they brought the rule. Every single other site does not ban this.”

    “Is this too hard a concept for you to understand? Each ship is completely isolated from help any of any type.”- Kenny. C.

    I’m going to post the link again for you since your having such a hard time with this.

    factpile.com/factpile-debating-rules.htm

    1) No one stated this rule until you made the claim you this fight could be turned into a Protoss Fleet vs and ISD. Only in your own world is “teleporting” an ally to your location and “asking them help you” two different things. The underlying point is not how they get to you, but the fact that they are now aiding you in a fight that’s not theirs. If this was a Protoss Fleet vs and ISD, the title would say so. Your grasping at straws here.

    I’m going to explain this again to you. It doesn’t matter if Person A is teleporting Person B to the fight or if Person B is coming on their own, if Person B is still helping Person A in the fight. Apocalypse CANNOT teleport his horsemen to a fight between him and somebody else. Silver Surfer CANNOT call on Galactus to smite his enemies, even though Galactus would practically “teleport” himself there. The Protoss Fleet is not apart of the Protoss Carrier. ‘Nough said.

    2) Look at the rectangular box at the top of your web browser. Now read it. You still with me? Good. Now I ask you, does it say “Factpile.com” or does it say “Every other site”?

    Admin’s rules, not theirs or yours. If your so passionate about this, then e-mail him. Though, why would you in the first place? All you need right is basic reading comprehension and the ability to comprehend what the word “help” means.

  44. Shadow Archon December 23, 2009 at 11:33 am -      #44

    “I’m going to explain this again to you. It doesn’t matter if Person A is teleporting Person B to the fight or if Person B is coming on their own, if Person B is still helping Person A in the fight. Apocalypse CANNOT teleport his horsemen to a fight between him and somebody else. Silver Surfer CANNOT call on Galactus to smite his enemies, even though Galactus would practically “teleport” himself there. The Protoss Fleet is not apart of the Protoss Carrier. ‘Nough said.”

    I already admitted that they can’t.

    “Admin’s rules, not theirs or yours. If your so passionate about this, then e-mail him. Though, why would you in the first place? All you need right is basic reading comprehension and the ability to comprehend what the word “help” means.”

    Im not passionate about this. I always assume a war scenario.

    “I’m going to post the link again for you since your having such a hard time with this.”

    I don’t have a hard time with it. Are you like a moderator or something?

    Either way, that carrier is screwed. What we know is that it is a single, standard carrier. No weapons except the interceptors and the other fighter craft it can carry.”

    Some carry weapons, it would make sense if that was the case.

    “What we know is that the ISD carries more than 70 TIE Fighters and more than enough fire power to pound that carrier into oblivion.”

    Interceptors cassaully destroy Battle Cruisers. The TIEs should be no problem.

    “Even with the Arbiters cloaking the ships, I’m sure the ISD’s sensors would pick them up,, since the Terrans Missle Turrets and sensors can.”

    It only picked up an Observer using technological means in a book, not psionic.
    The Arbiter cloaks with psionic. You have to prove that its sensors can pick it
    up when they ussually have to be outfitted with special sensors to do it in the
    books.

    “ISD wins, carrier loses.”

    Your not even arguing, your just blatantly stating assumptions.

  45. Inarto December 23, 2009 at 8:03 pm -      #45

    I found some numbers on star wars weaponry from wookiepedia that are rather interesting. A laser cannon blast is said to be 6 megatons. A blast from a heavy turbolaser is three time more powerful making it 18 megatons. There are 60 heavy turbolasers on the ISD so one volley of heavy turbolasers would be 1.08 gigatons. The quad turbolasers on an acclamator unleash 200 gigatons per shot. The ISD has two of these and they are heavy versions likely making them stronger.
    Here is the source “↑ 6.00 6.01 6.02 6.03 6.04 6.05 6.06 6.07 6.08 6.09 6.10 6.11 6.12 6.13 6.14 Attack of the Clones: Incredible Cross-Sections, p. 22-23 ”
    Can your provide an example of interceptors tearing apart battle cruisers?
    Also remember that Arbiters are no longer used by the protoss.

  46. Shadow Archon December 24, 2009 at 1:51 pm -      #46

    “For many decades leading up to 2500, the Qel’Ha was the flagship of Executor Koronis’ and Judicator Amdor’s expeditionary force tasked with recovering xel’naga artifacts and capturing Dark Templar.

    Following the zerg invasion of Aiur, the Qel’Ha led the expedition to Bhekar Ro in response to the signal sent from the recently uncovered xel’naga artifact on that world. An Observer deployed by the ship to locate the artifact was destroyed by the missile turret from Bhekar Ro’s terran colony.

    The Qel’Ha was engaged in space upon the arrival of the zerg Kukulkan Brood and then the Terran Dominion’s Alpha Squadron. The carrier’s interceptors destroyed the battlecruiser Bismarck and heavily damaged the battlecruiser Napoleon.

    Once the artifact’s location was determined the carrier deployed ground forces to secure it, and later took part in its defense against the remaining zerg and terran forces. The Qel’Ha and its crew were absorbed by the energy creature released from the artifact. ”

    Also, is this SC2 Carrier or SC1?

  47. Inarto December 24, 2009 at 7:12 pm -      #47

    From watching the videos most of the damage done to the ISD looks like it was either from the bombs or internal explosions not from the actual crash itself. The battle cruiser on the other hand had its front pushed upward from the impact.
    How will the carrier survive with its sheilds disabled while taking gigatons worth of fire power and its intercepts and other ships either engaging the ISD and being picked off by TIE’s or having to dogfight the fighters?

  48. L-W December 25, 2009 at 12:51 am -      #48

    “I found some numbers on star wars weaponry from wookiepedia that are rather interesting. A laser cannon blast is said to be 6 megatons. A blast from a heavy turbolaser is three time more powerful making it 18 megatons. There are 60 heavy turbolasers on the ISD so one volley of heavy turbolasers would be 1.08 gigatons. The quad turbolasers on an acclamator unleash 200 gigatons per shot. The ISD has two of these and they are heavy versions likely making them stronger.”

    These figures are all wrong.

    1) Acclamator light point-defence turbolasers are stated to be 6 megatons per shot, per second, which is pretty consistent with their on-screen depiction in which they were vaporizing 40 meter wide asteroids in the Hoth asteroid field.

    2) The medium turbolaser of the Acclamator is rated at 200 gigatons per shot, for which she had a dozen mounted on her hull.

    3) The Providence-class Destroyer has fourteen one teraton heavy turbolaser cannons, the Venator-class Star Destroyer can pump the majority of her reactor output into her guns and the Munificent-class banking frigate can melt-blast a 1000km ice moon with her prow laser cannons; we’re talking petatons.

    Imperial firepower is easily within the teraton-petaton range in volley fire.

  49. Inarto December 25, 2009 at 11:40 am -      #49

    “Acclamator light point-defence turbolasers are stated to be 6 megatons per shot, per second, which is pretty consistent with their on-screen depiction in which they were vaporizing 40 meter wide asteroids in the Hoth asteroid field.”
    Yeah thats what I had said the laser cannon was 6 megatons. The XX-9 turbolaser is three times more powerful than a laser cannon. Sorry but I dont see where I went wrong.

  50. L-W December 25, 2009 at 8:12 pm -      #50

    “Yeah thats what I had said the laser cannon was 6 megatons. The XX-9 turbolaser is three times more powerful than a laser cannon. Sorry but I dont see where I went wrong.”

    Scaling. If the ratio of light to heavy turbolaser output is proportional to the size difference between the two platforms, then XX-9 heavy turbolasers (designed as anti-cap ship platforms) must therefore have an output of roughly 750 megatons based on the disparity of internal and external volume. But if we go by canonically documented materials that state that older/inferior turbolaser models even smaller than the XX-9 are capable of multiple gigaton outputs, it becomes clear that this “three times more powerful” crap was pulled from your arse and is absent of documented proof entirely.

    So let us re-cap:

    Venator-Star Destroyer: 86TT/S (on 10% diverted power)
    Acclamator Troop Transport: 2.4TT/S
    Providence-class Destroyer: 14.5TT/S

    If twenty year old Clone Wars era vessels could pump out multiple teraton volleys every second, then an Imperial Star Destroyer (a larger vessel with a greater reactor output) with six larger heavy turbolaser cannons (not two) should be just as capable of the same.

  51. Inarto December 25, 2009 at 9:02 pm -      #51

    This is from the “new” essential guide to star wars weapons and teachnology
    “As with other laser cannons, the turbolaser’s energy field is focused by galven coils in the weapons barrel. The two-stage design creates blasts with tripple the power of standard laser cannons”
    My mistake actually. I thought that it was reffering specifically to the XX-9 but it was actually just a general turbolaser blast. Thought it was weird that the acclamator would be armed with multiple gigaton turbolasers while the ISD had megaton weaponry.

  52. L-W December 25, 2009 at 9:51 pm -      #52

    1) “My mistake actually. I thought that it was reffering specifically to the XX-9 but it was actually just a general turbolaser blast.”

    There’s no discrepancy, just the bizarre assumption that the term “standard laser cannon” can be used as a direct inference to any specific capital ship weapon, when we know that the Republic and the Empire have a wide array of turbolaser emplacements dedicated to specific tasks. Since there is no such thing as a “standard” gun emplacement in naval terminology, and that the term laser cannon is frequently used interchangeably with turbolaser in most literature, it seems bizarre that you would directly rate the output of a heavy turbolaser against a non-existent and unknown designation.

    2) “Thought it was weird that the acclamator would be armed with multiple gigaton turbolasers while the ISD had megaton weaponry.”

    /Facepalm

    The ISD *has* megaton level light weapons (as in the practically invisible trench guns that were turning 40 meter rocks to nothing), but it also comes equipped with numerous dual heavies, quad heavies, triple mediums and medium turbolasers, possibly ranging from gigaton to teraton level outputs based of previous incarnations of the same models.

    Just because the Iowa class battleship uses 20mm cannons in point defence, their use does to dictate the overall armament of the battleship.

  53. Inarto December 25, 2009 at 10:58 pm -      #53

    Sorry completly botched what I was trying to say. What I meant was that when I
    had done my “calculations” the acclamator looked like it had a lot more
    firepower than the ISD which didnt make sense, even to me. So on the topic of
    the carrier against the ISD does the carrier stand a chance?

  54. Kenny C. December 25, 2009 at 11:10 pm -      #54

    “Some carry weapons, it would make sense if that was the case.”
    – Does it really matter?

    “Interceptors cassaully destroy Battle Cruisers. The TIEs should be no problem.”
    – Your trying to compare a lumbering target that has very little manuvering capability to a small space fighter… which is not hopelossly outnumbered… you fail sir.

    “It only picked up an Observer using technological means in a book, not psionic.
    The Arbiter cloaks with psionic. You have to prove that its sensors can pick it
    up when they ussually have to be outfitted with special sensors to do it in the
    books.”

    – Arbiters are no longer in use. Besides, in-game, these psionic field was also vunerable to simple missile turret sensors, but this just may be game mechanics. Don’t know really, and it really doesn’t matter.

    “I don’t have a hard time with it. Are you like a moderator or something?”
    – Yes, you are. You keep asking about it, so you are indeed having a hard time, well you used to be having a hard. But now that you know the rule, the Protoss is competely isolated from all outside help.

    – Well, I say that L-W calc.s and others’ input pretty much wraps this one up. Star Destoryer for the win.

  55. Shadow Archon January 5, 2010 at 8:08 pm -      #55

    “- Your trying to compare a lumbering target that has very little manuvering capability to a small space fighter… which is not hopelossly outnumbered… you fail sir.”

    Ineterceptors have the firepower to blow up Battlecruisers and can shoot down fighters. Now that I look back, I see what you mean.

    “- Arbiters are no longer in use. Besides, in-game, these psionic field was also vunerable to simple missile turret sensors, but this just may be game mechanics. Don’t know really, and it really doesn’t matter.”

    Frontline, which takes place after the Brood War, shows Arbiters in use.

    “- Yes, you are. You keep asking about it, so you are indeed having a hard time, well you used to be having a hard. But now that you know the rule, the Protoss is competely isolated from all outside help.”

    I was understanding the situation of the battle, you two thought I was questioning it somehow.

    “Well, I say that L-W calc.s and others’ input pretty much wraps this one up. Star Destoryer for the win.”

    Not so fast, some calcs put Protoss weaponry in the terra-tons and quite possibly higher.

  56. EnigmaJ January 5, 2010 at 8:46 pm -      #56

    @ShadowArchon- “I was understanding the situation of the battle, you two thought I was questioning it somehow.”

    “No one stated that until they brought the rule. Every single other site does not ban this”-

    I assumed you were saying here that every other site allowed it, so it had to be allowed here. My apologies.

  57. Kenny C. January 5, 2010 at 9:30 pm -      #57

    From the very mouth of Chris Metzen –

    “After the Judicator Caste was eliminated from the Protoss power structure, the Arbiter quickly fell into disuse. When the protoss fled Aiur to Shakuras, the Arbiters were lost along with Aiur.”

    More from starcraft wiki-

    “Although carriers lack weapon batteries or other armaments of any kind,”

    – Granted it did state that SOME carries fire beams… that really is up to admin to decide.

    “Not so fast, some calcs put Protoss weaponry in the terra-tons and quite possibly higher.”

    – Well…. where are they, the equations themselves, and what their based off of?

    “We do not know how strong the EMP blast is though compared to an Ion bolt. Do Ion bolts cause shields on Star Wars vessels to drop instantly or mostly?”
    – It seems to be an almost instant disabling action, besides, the ISD seems to have batteries of them.

  58. Shadow Archon January 6, 2010 at 4:28 pm -      #58

    “- It seems to be an almost instant disabling action, besides, the ISD seems to have batteries of them.”

    I thought the instant one was from the large Ion cannon on Hoth are the Malevolence.

    ““After the Judicator Caste was eliminated from the Protoss power structure, the Arbiter quickly fell into disuse. When the protoss fled Aiur to Shakuras, the Arbiters were lost along with Aiur.”

    And a story in canon has arbiters. Chris Metzen has been wrong before…….

    “- Granted it did state that SOME carries fire beams… that really is up to admin to decide.”

    Without weapons, I will admit the Carrier can not damage the ISD fast enough for it to survive. It will either retreat or explode in blue. They could try using boarding parties, but I really don’t want to debate army vs army in a ship battle.

    “Well…. where are they, the equations themselves, and what their based off of?”

    forums.spacebattles.com/showthread.php?t=144696&highlight=protoss

    Only a few are there though. Im going to have to hunt individual topics.

  59. Sapper007 January 6, 2010 at 4:46 pm -      #59

    well, if the protoss cracked open a planet and ruptured its crust it would have to be above Teraton

    “The largest quake registered, the 1960 Chilean quake, released MW almost 60 teratons or 60,000 gigatons of TNT (250,000 EJ) equivalent” wikipedia(so its kinda close)

    I know the difference between internal forces and external forces and compression… but if all this did was shake rattle and rolled and killed 6000 people from falling debris and tsunami’s…

    but this was an internal release of that range of energy….

    an example is close your hand around a firecracker and you might lose a finger and some flesh….
    but on an open hand it just scorches your fist.

    the earthquake was the closed fist…

    so…. is this rupturing of the planets crust really that unimpressive taht you are calling it gigaton level???

  60. Kenny C. January 6, 2010 at 4:56 pm -      #60

    “Chris Metzen has been wrong before…….”
    When? And how is a writer who is PAID to write a story for Blizzard higher, canon-wise, than the man who actually makes the overall story?

    ” forums.spacebattles.com/showthread.php?t=144696&highlight=protoss ”
    – The comic in question is in question as it shows beams going straight through the planet, when the wiki and all other related material says the beams merely go through to the crust. Indeed, even the poster of the calcs says he has his doubts about it.

    Oh yes, concerning the comic in question, was Mar Sara completely destoryed in the story?

  61. Skrunks January 6, 2010 at 5:57 pm -      #61

    www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Essays/Planet-Killers.html#ForeShadow

    Foreshadow from LEXX is capable of destroying a planet in a similar fashion. It is only one ship, however in order to achieve that level of planetary destruction, you would need power in the range of 10E11 megatons, or 1,000,000,000,000 megatons of firepower. What the Protoss did was considerably worse to the planet then Foreshadow’s Webs, in approximately the same time frame. However, this is all irrelevant, since any Protoss Carrier that carries onboard weapons is a Protoss Super Carrier. This debate is about a Protoss Carrier, not a Super Carrier. The only chance the Carrier has is the on board psychic crew. Nobody has given a rebuttal to the entire crew of the ISD being mindraped… which would need to be done before the ISD blows the Carrier

  62. Shadow Archon January 6, 2010 at 10:48 pm -      #62

    “When? And how is a writer who is PAID to write a story for Blizzard higher, canon-wise, than the man who actually makes the overall story?”

    About Infested protoss, which an entire story completely talked about and had an infested protoss when he said there is no such thing.

    “The comic in question is in question as it shows beams going straight through the planet, when the wiki and all other related material says the beams merely go through to the crust. Indeed, even the poster of the calcs says he has his doubts about it.”

    The wiki can be wrong as I know certain parts in it that are wrong. As for beams going through the crust, it would have to in order to go through it, so how is that a contradiction?

    “Oh yes, concerning the comic in question, was Mar Sara completely destoryed in the story??

    It mentioned multiple planets. It could be Mar Sara or not.

    “Foreshadow from LEXX is capable of destroying a planet in a similar fashion. It is only one ship, however in order to achieve that level of planetary destruction, you would need power in the range of 10E11 megatons, or 1,000,000,000,000 megatons of firepower. What the Protoss did was considerably worse to the planet then Foreshadow’s Webs, in approximately the same time frame. However, this is all irrelevant, since any Protoss Carrier that carries onboard weapons is a Protoss Super Carrier. This debate is about a Protoss Carrier, not a Super Carrier. The only chance the Carrier has is the on board psychic crew. Nobody has given a rebuttal to the entire crew of the ISD being mindraped… which would need to be done before the ISD blows the Carrier”

    Depends on what the Admin decides.

  63. Inarto January 9, 2010 at 8:06 pm -      #63

    @Sapper
    No offense but I dont think the comparison you gave is accurate. The energy from the quake would be spread out over a wide area while the energy from a laser commencing an orbital strike would be focused on one location. Course i could be completly wrong so feel free to correct me.

    Does anyone have the range on the Psionic storm ability?

  64. Shadow Archon January 10, 2010 at 5:59 am -      #64

    “Does anyone have the range on the Psionic storm ability?”

    Its capable of affecting a ship that is kms long flying through the air. We do not really know though.

  65. L-W January 10, 2010 at 7:51 am -      #65

    “The largest quake registered, the 1960 Chilean quake, released MW almost 60 teratons or 60,000 gigatons of TNT (250,000 EJ) equivalent”

    Check your sources.

    The U.S. Geological Survey released a report that the 1960 Valdivia earthquake was measured at a staggering 9.5 on the Richter magnitude scale; approximate to about less than a hundred gigatons of energy. In fact the highest postulated Richter magnitude scale reading (10.0) is estimated to release only one teraton of energy, whilst the Chicxulub impact possessed an approximate TNT for
    seismic energy yield of 100 teratons.

    It is unlikely that the Valdivia earthquake was a global extinction event, since we are after all still standing.

    – – –

    Once again this remains an unquantifiable clusterfuck, with vague references to other fictional series, uncorroborated time lapses (I could destroy the planet with a bucket if given enough time) and no hard calculations that demonstrate that a Protoss Carrier is comparable to a twenty year old pre-Imperial warship other than a single bombardment weapon.

    Other than of course numerous links to Spacebattles.com, a website with several prominent active members who actively and publicly cherry pick canon and decry documented events that they disagree with for no apparent reason other than the fact that it seems “silly” to them.

    Yeah, right.

  66. Inarto January 10, 2010 at 12:51 pm -      #66

    So ISD for facpile award then? The psionic storm doesnt look like it has the range to damage the ISD before it is blown apart by turbolaser fire and proton torpedoes/ concussion missiles

  67. Sapper007 January 11, 2010 at 9:20 am -      #67

    hmmm…. this goes to show why wikipedia isnt accepted for college level research… stupid wiki’s…
    Although Chicxulub wasnt a mass estinction event either… Gerta Keller of Princeton University argues that recent core samples from
    Chicxulub prove the impact occurred about 300,000 years before the mass
    extinction, and thus could not have been the causal factor

    so, were are we L-W? back to unquantifiable BS???

  68. Shadow Archon January 24, 2010 at 10:48 pm -      #68

    “Once again this remains an unquantifiable clusterfuck, with vague references to other fictional series, uncorroborated time lapses (I could destroy the planet with a bucket if given enough time)”

    No, you would die from starvation and your bucket better have the right material to carve through the mantel.

    ” and no hard calculations that demonstrate that a Protoss Carrier is comparable to a twenty year old pre-Imperial warship other than a single bombardment weapon.”

    Seeing that is the only bombardment photo we have…..

    “Other than of course numerous links to Spacebattles.com, a website with several prominent active members who actively and publicly cherry pick canon and decry documented events that they disagree with for no apparent reason other than the fact that it seems “silly” to them.”

    The ICS is silly, as it doesn’t fit up with higher sources in canon.

    “Yeah, right.”

    Don’t see your point.

    “So ISD for facpile award then? The psionic storm doesnt look like it has the range to damage the ISD before it is blown apart by turbolaser fire and proton torpedoes/ concussion missiles”

    We don’t know the range.

  69. L-W January 24, 2010 at 11:34 pm -      #69

    1) “No, you would die from starvation and your bucket better have the right material to carve through the mantel.”

    A) Is the phrase “if given enough time” new to you? Do I need to lend you a dictionary?

    B) Amazing how you can take an unquantifiable statement and try and spin it as such? Hardly a new trait for you is it?

    2) “Seeing that is the only bombardment photo we have…..”

    And incredibly vague in its description. Fantastic.

    3) “The ICS is silly, as it doesn’t fit up with higher sources in canon.”

    A) G-canon doesn’t contradict the ICS (because blowing up an Earth-like planet in a microsecond is a low end event, amirite?).

    B) It’s still Lucas approved canon.

    Now if you want to cherry pick canon sources you’re more than welcome to, but you’ll also have to concede your blatant dishonesty. Canon is canon friend, regardless of your opinion.

  70. Shadow Archon January 25, 2010 at 2:03 pm -      #70

    “A) Is the phrase “if given enough time” new to you? Do I need to lend you a dictionary?

    B) Amazing how you can take an unquantifiable statement and try and spin it as such? Hardly a new trait for you is it? ”

    And here is your short temper.

    “A) G-canon doesn’t contradict the ICS (because blowing up an Earth-like planet in a microsecond is a low end event, amirite?).

    B) It’s still Lucas approved canon”

    The Death Star one is not violated, I was talking about ship firepower.

    “Now if you want to cherry pick canon sources you’re more than welcome to, but you’ll also have to concede your blatant dishonesty. Canon is canon friend, regardless of your opinion.”

    Look, I don’t like debating Star Wars because of this very reason. In my opinion, whatever happens in the Clone Wars show contradicts the ICS because of its higher status. Its not cherry picking.

  71. L-W January 27, 2010 at 3:39 am -      #71

    1) “And here is your short temper.”

    I hardly see it as sign of possessing a temper when pointing out such obvious flaws as misconstruing a clearly hyperbolic statement in regards to indefinite time frames as an actual quantifiable figure. If you see this as a sign of losing one’s cool, then I could only suggest that you perhaps have too thin a skin to continue debating.

    2) “The Death Star one is not violated, I was talking about ship firepower.”

    Still doesn’t address my point, does it.

    3) “Look, I don’t like debating Star Wars because of this very reason. In my opinion, whatever happens in the Clone Wars show contradicts the ICS because of its higher status. Its not cherry picking.”

    The same Clone Wars where vacuum generated fireballs are of equal surface area to those generated in an atmosphere (where there would be no atmosphere to resist the expansion of the vapor produced. It will continue indefinitely, shortly becoming too diffuse to be visible regardless of temperature) and are therefore quantifiably useless to scale (although I’m sure you’ll try to pull something out of your ass)?

    Either way, keep on cherry picking. I’m sure your opinion will go a great deal to further your argument against Lucasfilm licensing policies.

  72. Shadow Archon January 27, 2010 at 6:04 pm -      #72

    “I hardly see it as sign of possessing a temper when pointing out such obvious flaws as misconstruing a clearly hyperbolic statement in regards to indefinite time frames as an actual quantifiable figure. If you see this as a sign of losing one’s cool, then I could only suggest that you perhaps have too thin a skin to continue debating.”

    No, I saw it as your short temper in the whole, “Do I need to get you a Dictionary?” You know what I meant.

    “Still doesn’t address my point, does it. ”

    So, the fact that ships were threatened by mass walker fire is not a contradiction? And, its not a micro-second, maybe Milli-second, but not a micro-second, its also a techno-babble weapon as of the Death Star book, so how does this imply firepower?

    “The same Clone Wars where vacuum generated fireballs are of equal surface area to those generated in an atmosphere (where there would be no atmosphere to resist the expansion of the vapor produced. It will continue indefinitely, shortly becoming too diffuse to be visible regardless of temperature) and are therefore quantifiably useless to scale (although I’m sure you’ll try to pull something out of your ass)?”

    We see a Turbo Laser in the clone war mini-series and in the show not act as they would under the ICS. I will bring quantification later.

    “Either way, keep on cherry picking. I’m sure your opinion will go a great deal to further your argument against Lucasfilm licensing policies.”

    Its not cherry-picking. The ICS does not fit up with the movies and show.

    How about you read this:
    forums.spacebattles.com/showthread.php?t=144730&highlight=ICS

    Because personally L-W, you are one of the most die-hard SW fans I have seen.

  73. L-W January 27, 2010 at 9:08 pm -      #73

    1) “No, I saw it as your short temper in the whole, “Do I need to get you a Dictionary?” You know what I meant.”

    Hardly. As I said, if you need help to correct your poor grasp of a hyperbolic statements then perhaps you aren’t qualified to make accurate quantification in the first place.

    2) “So, the fact that ships were threatened by mass walker fire is not a contradiction?”

    Another vague quantification without any actual work. What a fucking surprise.

    As per Newton’s third law of motion, for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Therefore, the reaction torque corresponding to the Frigate’s angular acceleration must be equal to the torque applied by the turbolaser bolts in question. But the angular acceleration must occur in the exact same timeframe as the duration of the turbolaser impact itself, so we can formulate the resultant energy in the following formula:

    p = Iw/x
    \ p = U/c
    \ U = cIw/x

    We also need to determine the length, height and width of the Munificent, which are handily provided by the ICS.

    Ship length = 825m \ radial length = 412m
    Width = 426m
    Height = 243m

    From the following snapshot of the AT-TE bombardment (I was under the mistaken impression they were SPHA-T platform,s but they serve the purpose as a demonstration of Republic ground forces firepower), we can determine the distance from the center of the Frigate to the turbolaser impact point x = 400m. From the Frigates size and shape I estimate that its volume is roughly 85,402,350 cubic meters. If we assume that 95% of this volume is air and the remaining material has the density of iron, then the mass is approximately 36,949,940 tons.

    From the following video (from the start of its rotation to the point where it reaches its maximum angular displacement of 30 degrees in one second), we can deduce that the angular velocity w = 2 radian/s.

    www.watchtheclonewars.com/Watch-Clone-Wars-Episode-6-Downfall-of-a-Droid.html

    I = M [I = mr^2 = 36949940 x 412 m x 412 m = 6272030615360 ton m^2]

    Axis through center: I = 1/12 x mR^2 [I = 1/12 x 36949940 tons x 181476 m + 680625 m = 2654548351995 tonm^2.]

    I = 2.65e15 kg m^2

    Next we must calculate the energy of the bolts in question:
    U = cIw/x
    \ U = 2000 x 2.65e15 x 2 / 400m
    \ U = 2.65e16 J = 26500 TJ

    Finally we must compensate for the angle of approach. We can estimate from the above screenshot that the turbolasers approached at an angle of roughly 30 degrees. This means that the energy estimate must be divided by sin(30) to account for geometric factors. Therefore, the energy of the bolt would be roughly 53000 TJ. Given the distribution of AT-TE vehicles, this places the output of each vehicle at around one megaton each. If these bolts are mass-less particles such as photons (e.g. if their operating principle is similar to lasers), and my estimate for the Munificent-class mass is correct, then the lasers carry approximately 53000 TJ of energy. The turbolasers appear to strike during the space of a second, but to be conservative we should assume that the bolt duration is roughly half a second due to the velocity of each round. Therefore, the corresponding laser power level is 106000 TW.

    And was the frigate actually threatened by this? I saw no actual damage to any of the structure, no hull breeches, no ruptured port holes, nothing that would have destroyed the vessel; but it achieved the desired effect.

    It took the unshielded rear portion of the frigate by surprise, causing Grievous to assume that his vessel was under assault from the rear and re-balance the forward shield strength, thus putting him one even ground with the Venator strike group.

    3) “And, its not a micro-second, maybe Milli-second, but not a micro-second, its also a techno-babble weapon as of the Death Star book, so how does this imply firepower?”

    The entire postulation is based on a single quote of dubious worth and a series of assumptions about factors that affect the power requirements and how the ‘delivery mechanism’ changes this.

    You’re basically equating jumping a purpose-built computer-controlled object to doing the same thing to a rock with a big gun without understanding anything.

    Dr. Curtis Saxton surmises it quite well:

    “Measurement of the apparent expansion of the Alderaan debris cloud provides further constraints on the properties of the Death Star’s blast. The main debris cloud grows in a way that is slightly elongated in the direction of the incident beam. At late stages, the debris is clearly not concentric with the initial position of the planet. This suggests momentum transfer to a large part of the planetary bulk. Judging by the offset of the centre of mass before the beam strike and several seconds into the explosion, the mean recoil velocity of the ex-Alderaanian matter is on the order of 6.7 x 106 m / s in the plane of the picture, implying an impulse of 4.0 x 1031 kg m / s. A massless, light-speed beam delivering this amount of momentum would have a total energy of 1.2 x 1039 J. However this is an underestimate by some trigonometric factor, since the beam clearly was not parallel to the plane of the picture. Even so, the momentum-based estimate is in good agreement with estimates based on the apparent velocities of the expanding debris. The difference of one to two orders of mangitude is justified by the inefficiency of converting incident beam energy into kinetic energy of debris; much of the input energy is deposited as heat in the absorbing material.”

    So even if it does use some magic method to get around blowing it up, it still imparts enough energy to blow it up, as shown by conservation of momentum. Of course you could always use a variety of alternate explanations (such as the energy of planetary civilization levels required to launch a vessel through hyperspace – ref. Star Wars Technical Journal) but you still arrive at the same conclusion each time, the power and energy required to blast a planet via technobabble is equal to, greater than or possibly only a few orders of magnitude less than that required via a DET method.

    If you scale this monster down by a factor of 10 million (to the volume of a Star Destroyer) you still end up with some frightening figures.

    4) “We see a Turbo Laser in the clone war mini-series and in the show not act as they would under the ICS. I will bring quantification later.”

    What? So an explosion capable of expanding in space without becoming immediately diffuse is quantifiable in comparison to that of the sub-kiloton explosions generated by turbolasers in the atmosphere. Which incidentally are at least 1/100,000 (or in once case 1/1,000,000) of the energy generated by the turbolasers used to bracket the Millennium Falcon in TESB in the midst of the asteroid field (unless you want to take up fault with G-canon now).

    5) “Because personally L-W, you are one of the most die-hard SW fans I have seen.”

    The difference is though dip-shit, regardless of how much I personally enjoy Star Wars (which really has little to do with this debate because I can accurately surmise her place in the tiers of science fiction powers), I accept and rationalize ALL canon wherever possible for the sake of fairness, rationality and honesty.

    I don’t stamp my feet and walk around with my fingers in my ears in a huff because a piece of canon licensed material disagrees with me; instead I have the testicular fortitude to rationalize it, not cherry pick it. You dirty cherry picking varmint.

  74. Shadow Archon January 27, 2010 at 9:53 pm -      #74

    “Hardly. As I said, if you need help to correct your poor grasp of a hyperbolic statements then perhaps you aren’t qualified to make accurate quantification in the first place.”

    I know I am not qualified to do accurate quantifications, thats why I look at other peoples, and check to make sure it is reasonably accurate. Of course that sentence sounds idiotic, but I do check with people who understand the math. Hyperbolic statements are easily enough to understand, but realistically, no matter how much time you give a man, he can never destroy the world with a bucket. Thats my point.

    “Another vague quantification without any actual work. What a fucking surprise.

    As per Newton’s third law of motion, for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Therefore, the reaction torque corresponding to the Frigate’s angular acceleration must be equal to the torque applied by the turbolaser bolts in question. But the angular acceleration must occur in the exact same timeframe as the duration of the turbolaser impact itself, so we can formulate the resultant energy in the following formula:

    p = Iw/x
    \ p = U/c
    \ U = cIw/x

    We also need to determine the length, height and width of the Munificent, which are handily provided by the ICS.

    Ship length = 825m \ radial length = 412m
    Width = 426m
    Height = 243m

    From the following snapshot of the AT-TE bombardment (I was under the mistaken impression they were SPHA-T platform,s but they serve the purpose as a demonstration of Republic ground forces firepower), we can determine the distance from the center of the Frigate to the turbolaser impact point x = 400m. From the Frigates size and shape I estimate that its volume is roughly 85,402,350 cubic meters. If we assume that 95% of this volume is air and the remaining material has the density of iron, then the mass is approximately 36,949,940 tons.

    From the following video (from the start of its rotation to the point where it reaches its maximum angular displacement of 30 degrees in one second), we can deduce that the angular velocity w = 2 radian/s.

    www.watchtheclonewars.com/Watch-Clone-Wars-Episode-6-Downfall-of-a-Droid.html

    I = M [I = mr^2 = 36949940 x 412 m x 412 m = 6272030615360 ton m^2]

    Axis through center: I = 1/12 x mR^2 [I = 1/12 x 36949940 tons x 181476 m + 680625 m = 2654548351995 tonm^2.]

    I = 2.65e15 kg m^2

    Next we must calculate the energy of the bolts in question:
    U = cIw/x
    \ U = 2000 x 2.65e15 x 2 / 400m
    \ U = 2.65e16 J = 26500 TJ

    Finally we must compensate for the angle of approach. We can estimate from the above screenshot that the turbolasers approached at an angle of roughly 30 degrees. This means that the energy estimate must be divided by sin(30) to account for geometric factors. Therefore, the energy of the bolt would be roughly 53000 TJ. Given the distribution of AT-TE vehicles, this places the output of each vehicle at around one megaton each. If these bolts are mass-less particles such as photons (e.g. if their operating principle is similar to lasers), and my estimate for the Munificent-class mass is correct, then the lasers carry approximately 53000 TJ of energy. The turbolasers appear to strike during the space of a second, but to be conservative we should assume that the bolt duration is roughly half a second due to the velocity of each round. Therefore, the corresponding laser power level is 106000 TW.

    And was the frigate actually threatened by this? I saw no actual damage to any of the structure, no hull breeches, no ruptured port holes, nothing that would have destroyed the vessel; but it achieved the desired effect.

    It took the unshielded rear portion of the frigate by surprise, causing Grievous to assume that his vessel was under assault from the rear and re-balance the forward shield strength, thus putting him one even ground with the Venator strike group.”

    Before I say anything, can you link to a video that works?

    “The entire postulation is based on a single quote of dubious worth and a series of assumptions about factors that affect the power requirements and how the ‘delivery mechanism’ changes this.

    You’re basically equating jumping a purpose-built computer-controlled object to doing the same thing to a rock with a big gun without understanding anything.

    Dr. Curtis Saxton surmises it quite well:

    “Measurement of the apparent expansion of the Alderaan debris cloud provides further constraints on the properties of the Death Star’s blast. The main debris cloud grows in a way that is slightly elongated in the direction of the incident beam. At late stages, the debris is clearly not concentric with the initial position of the planet. This suggests momentum transfer to a large part of the planetary bulk. Judging by the offset of the centre of mass before the beam strike and several seconds into the explosion, the mean recoil velocity of the ex-Alderaanian matter is on the order of 6.7 x 106 m / s in the plane of the picture, implying an impulse of 4.0 x 1031 kg m / s. A massless, light-speed beam delivering this amount of momentum would have a total energy of 1.2 x 1039 J. However this is an underestimate by some trigonometric factor, since the beam clearly was not parallel to the plane of the picture. Even so, the momentum-based estimate is in good agreement with estimates based on the apparent velocities of the expanding debris. The difference of one to two orders of mangitude is justified by the inefficiency of converting incident beam energy into kinetic energy of debris; much of the input energy is deposited as heat in the absorbing material.”

    So even if it does use some magic method to get around blowing it up, it still imparts enough energy to blow it up, as shown by conservation of momentum. Of course you could always use a variety of alternate explanations (such as the energy of planetary civilization levels required to launch a vessel through hyperspace – ref. Star Wars Technical Journal) but you still arrive at the same conclusion each time, the power and energy required to blast a planet via technobabble is equal to, greater than or possibly only a few orders of magnitude less than that required via a DET method.

    If you scale this monster down by a factor of 10 million (to the volume of a Star Destroyer) you still end up with some frightening figures.”

    It entirely depends upon which civilization it is talking about first. I doubt an Ewok civilization would create such energy as that, so no, it does not create that much energy to do it in a DET method. Its not specific.

    “What? So an explosion capable of expanding in space without becoming immediately diffuse is quantifiable in comparison to that of the sub-kiloton explosions generated by turbolasers in the atmosphere. Which incidentally are at least 1/100,000 (or in once case 1/1,000,000) of the energy generated by the turbolasers used to bracket the Millennium Falcon in TESB in the midst of the asteroid field (unless you want to take up fault with G-canon now).”

    Turbolasers used to bracket the Millennium Falcon? Were those not Tie Bomber bombs? Are am I thinking of a different scene?

    “The difference is though dip-shit, regardless of how much I personally enjoy Star Wars (which really has little to do with this debate because I can accurately surmise her place in the tiers of science fiction powers), I accept and rationalize ALL canon wherever possible for the sake of fairness, rationality and honesty.”

    Honesty? We know that Higher canon overrules lower canon. How do you explain the fact that one EU writer said there were only 3 million clones in the Clone Wars?

    “I don’t stamp my feet and walk around with my fingers in my ears in a huff because a piece of canon licensed material disagrees with me; instead I have the testicular fortitude to rationalize it, not cherry pick it. You dirty cherry picking varmint.”

    There are many things you can’t rationalize in an acceptable manner, such as fire power differentiates and directly given numbers. And your balls have nothing to do with your brain. Higher canon >>>>> Lower canon, it is a fact that cannot be ignored.

  75. L-W January 27, 2010 at 11:56 pm -      #75

    First of all, learn to quote succinctly. I’m more than capable of recognizing my own work, so it’s absolutely unnecessary to include the full quotation and therefore clutter a forum with such useless mess. One or two paragraphs is fine, but entire sections of my post up to dozens of lines in length is just bizarre, excruciating and annoying to sift through.

    Second, why make claims of understanding a quantification when you have to call upon your friends at Spacebattles.com to do the work for you? What? You think you could post my work on another forum and I wouldn’t find out about it? Either way I would appreciate it if you could post the calculation in context to the entire point itself you dishonest little prick.

    Anyway, back to the debate:

    1) “I know I am not qualified to do accurate quantifications, thats why I look at other peoples, and check to make sure it is reasonably accurate. Of course that sentence sounds idiotic, but I do check with people who understand the math. Hyperbolic statements are easily enough to understand, but realistically, no matter how much time you give a man, he can never destroy the world with a bucket. Thats my point.”

    Then why confuse hyperbole as surmised point that needed contention? And why would you seek an emotional connotation with said correction in the form of anger?

    2) “It entirely depends upon which civilization it is talking about first. I doubt an Ewok civilization would create such energy as that, so no, it does not create that much energy to do it in a DET method. Its not specific.”

    Neither is the DS novel quote (other than regards to a superluminal boost), but the fact the “the hyperdrive of a Star Destroyer consumes as much energy in a single hyperjump as many planetary civilizations will consume in their entire lifetimes” is rather telling and pretty obvious to anyone with a function grasp of linguistics. Primitive 20th century Earth nations were never able to merge into a planetary civilization, but the yearly energy consumption of just one of our more prominent nations (the United States) over the course of a year. For example it is known that during the year 1985, the USA consumed over 7.80E19 joules of energy, a marketable increase from 1975 in which 7.44E19 joules of energy were consumed.

    Studies have been conducted by organizations such as the Global Scenario Group (an environmental organization that specializes in scenario analysis and forecasting) that have academically defined the planetary phase of any civilization as a historical transition from a world of capitalist states and consumerist societies to a world of increased global connectivity with new global institutions (like the United Nations and the World Trade Organization), new information technologies, environmental change in the biosphere, economic globalization, and shifts in culture and consciousness.

    From a scientific perspective, the Planetary Phase of Civilization is viewed by the GSG as the third significantly marked transition in the growth of a civilization (ref. Great Transition: The Promise and Lure of the Times Ahead, data resource for GSG environmental researchers). Though history is complex and difficult to distinguish except in more significant examples of historical record keeping, they argue that changes from the Stone Age to Early civilization and then to the Modern Era are the first two macro-shifts in human society and culture. These transitions can be differentiated based on social organization, economy, and communications. The Stone Age consisted of the most basic and simple versions – tribes and villages, hunting and gathering, and language as the only means of communication. The shift into Early Civilization brought more structured city-states and kingdoms, settled agriculture, and writing. Society developed further in the Modern Era into nation-states with industrial systems and printing, which enhanced communication and increased the complexity of society. Proponents argue that unlike prior transitions, the Planetary Phase marks a new geologic era, the Anthropocene, in which human activity fundamentally alters ecosystems and the climate.

    Thus the definition of a planetary civilization is remarkably clear in that encompasses a globalized economic, cultural and technological amalgam of all cultures, one in which “The consensually created and globally coordinated ecosocial market system begins to function” and “The natural resources required for health and vitality become available to all the peoples and countries of the human community” (e.g. not us). The fact that you would use the Ewok village as a demonstration of a global community (one that doesn’t even generate power no less!) is not only somewhat laughable, but intellectually dishonest and short-sighted.

    “The average energy consumption of the USA over a twenty year time period averaged to 7.56E19 J/year for a population of roughly 250 million. A smallish Imperial planetary civilization will have at least 10 billion citizens (and in many cases, several orders of magnitude larger than this; there are billions of beings in the orbital shipyards of Kuat alone). Therefore, even if its citizens only consume as much energy as a primitive 20th century Earth civilization like the United States, such a planetary civilization would consume 40 x 7.56E19 J/year, or roughly 3E21 J/year (3E23 J/century). Most of the planetary civilizations of the Old Republic have existed for at least 25,000 years, so if we again take a relatively “young” planetary civilization that has only persisted for 10,000 years or so, its lifetime energy consumption would be well over 3E25 J. Since the power systems of a Star Destroyer can initiate a hyperjump with no charging period necessary, their reactors’ peak output must therefore be at least 1E25 watts, if not much larger.”

    – Posted by Mike Wong of SD.net

    3) “Turbolasers used to bracket the Millennium Falcon? Were those not Tie Bomber bombs? Are am I thinking of a different scene?”

    There are multiple instances during the Hoth chase scene in which Star Destroyers (pursuing the Falcon) fire bracketing shots at Han and company with the light quad laser turrets mounted along the trench, which score direct hits against and manage to outright vaporize several 30-50 meter nickel-iron asteroids (based on scaling alongside the Falcon) in 1/15th of a second.

    Dr. Curtis Saxton suggested on the technical commentaries website that the asteroids did not shatter because the melting/vaporization was “supersonic”. This means that the asteroids were melted/vaporized before this expansion stress could take effect. This appears to be a valid theory, since the entire vaporization process took approximately 1/15 second.

    Later Mike Wong writes:

    “This idea deserves further explanation: speed is everything. Thermal conductivity through the asteroid’s mass is insufficient to account for the effects we saw, because the rock simply cannot conduct that much heat that quickly, even if it’s pure iron. The effect would be more of an explosive effect, with a tiny area being superheated and a concussive shock wave moving out and shattering the asteroid. However, in order to shatter these asteroids so quickly, the fragments would have had to move through the rest of the asteroid at more than 600 m/s! This would require extremely rapid large-scale deformation of material, and the mechanics of solid material deformation happens to be an area which I’ve studied in depth. Deformation involves work, as defined by the stress-strain curve of the material, and that work becomes energy in the resulting deformed matter; this effect is known as work heating. The question of whether the asteroid was heated or shattered is therefore moot, because the act of shattering it at such great speed would create so much work-heating that the resulting material would be superheated anyway.”

    The energy required to vaporize a 40 meter nickel-iron asteroid is up to 500 kilotons, but based on the speed of the vaporization and the fact that the debris went from white hot to invisible liquid globules in less than a second, the amount of energy pumped into asteroid could be anywhere from 500 kilotons to 1.5 megatons. Thus representing a decent lower limit for light turbolaser firepower.

    4) “Honesty? We know that Higher canon overrules lower canon. How do you explain the fact that one EU writer said there were only 3 million clones in the Clone Wars?”

    LFL made it very clear that no fixed number of clones could or would be assigned. This makes the numbers moot. This could also be applied to Leland Chee’s comment regarding 3,000,000 troops. LFL would override Chee as a higher authority (being the source of the movies, the highest canon). While Leland Chee does have the authority to discuss the canon regarding Licensed products and solve contradictions, LFL’s decree of not setting a total number of clones would in this case override Chee’s authority. Ultimately though there are numerous other sources and EU writers who give vastly contradicting numbers (such as the The Cestus Deception, Labyrinth of Evil & Revenge of the Sith: Visual Dictionary, Revenge of the Sith novel, the ICS series etc).

    However, from the information I could gather, the statement by Ryan Kaufman about LFL decreeing that there could not and would not be a set number of clones makes the matter rather clear-cut. As is, since the highest authority (par Lucas) has decided that there will not be a set number of clones stated, the 3,000,000 figure flies out of the window. This allows us to start attempting to set the apparently contradictory pieces of evidence together. One method of doing this is to simply use the mention of “Grand Armies”. There are multiple “Grand Army” formations with the most commonly used name for the forces for public consumption also being The Grand Army of the Republic.

    There is also the question of fleet size. The Republic ordered 1,000 Acclamator-class ships at the outset of the war with un-stated number of warships beginning to fill up the ranks of the Navy. It is also stated in the RoTS: ICS (again from a narrators perspective) that the Separatists had millions of warships locked in battle with Republic fleets. Are we supposed to accept a fleet capable of taking on 2,000,000+ strong Separatist navy, but a primary ground combat branch numbering 3,000,000? Not to mention, if we are to accept the statement of all Acclamator’s being crewed by clones in Triple Zero, we would arrive at 16,000,000 clones for the Acclamator’s alone. Once again a direct contradiction if trying to justify 3,000,000 as a total number of clones.

    There were more armies later in the war I believe (the ROTS ICS mentioned them anyhow) but initially its just Kamino doing it. Which makes sense since a possible bottleneck in troop production will be available transport anyhow. Any excess clones will be little more than garrison or defense troops (and non-clones already served that role as it is).

    Later, as war production increases, it seems more likely that outright escalation of cloning will continue on other worlds and facilities, therefore exceeding the original “1.2 million unit more” shipment mentioned prior to the raid on Geonosis.

    5) “There are many things you can’t rationalize in an acceptable manner, such as fire power differentiates and directly given numbers. And your balls have nothing to do with your brain. Higher canon >>>>> Lower canon, it is a fact that cannot be ignored.”

    Your inclination towards obvious platitudes being one thing. But…

    …G-canon (the highest canon) demonstrates the shielded Millennium Falcon tanking shots that were between 100,000 to 3,000,000 times more energetic than those that were pulverizing the Venator’s in the upper atmosphere (or 1000 times less energetic than the AT-AT at maximum firepower). Why were heavy warships being taken down by such puny detonations in the upper atmosphere of a planet when a small frigate just less than 20,000 times the volume was easily surviving shots that would have caused ten kilometer wide fireballs to erupt in the upper atmosphere of the planet? Shots that against a shielded warship should have been utterly useless by several orders of magnitude.

    Now according to your disapproval of the C-canon in general (since the ICS isn’t the only source that advocates gigaton level firepower), we should dismiss T-canon as well since it contradicts an even higher canon. Now do you see how unattainable your position is? You can’t throw out canon because it seems silly to you, because then you’re forced to challenge everything else but the immediately highest authority, which then goes unchallenged by lower canon sources.

    Thus your cherry picking is not only intellectually dishonest, but doomed to fail anyway.

  76. Shadow Archon January 28, 2010 at 2:16 pm -      #76

    [quote]First of all, learn to quote succinctly. I’m more than capable of recognizing my own work, so it’s absolutely unnecessary to include the full quotation and therefore clutter a forum with such useless mess. One or two paragraphs is fine, but entire sections of my post up to dozens of lines in length is just bizarre, excruciating and annoying to sift through.

    Second, why make claims of understanding a quantification when you have to call upon your friends at Spacebattles.com to do the work for you? What? You think you could post my work on another forum and I wouldn’t find out about it? Either way I would appreciate it if you could post the calculation in context to the entire point itself you dishonest little prick.[/quote]

    I never said I understood it. Thats why I asked about it. You were assuming they were energy bolts, I was not clear if they were even that. They have been called mass drivers as well. Plus, this calculation does not coincide with higher canon. We never see megaton explosions in the atmosphere when they are used in the film(unless they can change the yeild of the weapon, but I doubt it since this is based off it being a turbolaser.) Hey, how am I dishonest? Im only a snot-nosed high schooler who was asking how you got to megatons and if the math checked out. I get the basic premise, but not the full thing. I posted the whole calculation. I don’t see the matter of why I should post of what the calculation was referring to. I believe I mentioned why you were doing it anyways. As I said back there, I probably am just going to stop. The only reason I debate is for fun.

    “Then why confuse hyperbole as surmised point that needed contention? And why would you seek an emotional connotation with said correction in the form of anger?”

    I get it was hyperbolic, but I like to be realistic. Just the thought of someone with a bucket destroying it is too ridiculous. As of anger, Im sorry. I read too much into things.

    “a Star Destroyer consumes as much energy in a single hyperjump as many planetary civilizations will consume in their entire lifetimes” is rather telling and pretty obvious to anyone with a function grasp of linguistics. Primitive 20th century Earth nations were never able to merge into a planetary civilization, but the yearly energy consumption of just one of our more prominent nations (the United States) over the course of a year. For example it is known that during the year 1985, the USA consumed over 7.80E19 joules of energy, a marketable increase from 1975 in which 7.44E19 joules of energy were consumed.

    Studies have been conducted by organizations such as the Global Scenario Group (an environmental organization that specializes in scenario analysis and forecasting) that have academically defined the planetary phase of any civilization as a historical transition from a world of capitalist states and consumerist societies to a world of increased global connectivity with new global institutions (like the United Nations and the World Trade Organization), new information technologies, environmental change in the biosphere, economic globalization, and shifts in culture and consciousness.

    From a scientific perspective, the Planetary Phase of Civilization is viewed by the GSG as the third significantly marked transition in the growth of a civilization (ref. Great Transition: The Promise and Lure of the Times Ahead, data resource for GSG environmental researchers). Though history is complex and difficult to distinguish except in more significant examples of historical record keeping, they argue that changes from the Stone Age to Early civilization and then to the Modern Era are the first two macro-shifts in human society and culture. These transitions can be differentiated based on social organization, economy, and communications. The Stone Age consisted of the most basic and simple versions – tribes and villages, hunting and gathering, and language as the only means of communication. The shift into Early Civilization brought more structured city-states and kingdoms, settled agriculture, and writing. Society developed further in the Modern Era into nation-states with industrial systems and printing, which enhanced communication and increased the complexity of society. Proponents argue that unlike prior transitions, the Planetary Phase marks a new geologic era, the Anthropocene, in which human activity fundamentally alters ecosystems and the climate.

    Thus the definition of a planetary civilization is remarkably clear in that encompasses a globalized economic, cultural and technological amalgam of all cultures, one in which “The consensually created and globally coordinated ecosocial market system begins to function” and “The natural resources required for health and vitality become available to all the peoples and countries of the human community” (e.g. not us). The fact that you would use the Ewok village as a demonstration of a global community (one that doesn’t even generate power no less!) is not only somewhat laughable, but intellectually dishonest and short-sighted.”

    First off, I was not clear, I did not mean the Ewok village, I meant a planet occupied by a planetary Ewok civilization. Its still not clear however. There can be primitive planetary civilizations. But still, you do bring up a good point, I am sorry for the appearance of dishonesty. I really would only think of a planetary civilization is a unspecified civilization that occupies the entire planet.

    “LFL made it very clear that no fixed number of clones could or would be assigned. This makes the numbers moot. This could also be applied to Leland Chee’s comment regarding 3,000,000 troops. LFL would override Chee as a higher authority (being the source of the movies, the highest canon). While Leland Chee does have the authority to discuss the canon regarding Licensed products and solve contradictions, LFL’s decree of not setting a total number of clones would in this case override Chee’s authority. Ultimately though there are numerous other sources and EU writers who give vastly contradicting numbers (such as the The Cestus Deception, Labyrinth of Evil & Revenge of the Sith: Visual Dictionary, Revenge of the Sith novel, the ICS series etc).

    However, from the information I could gather, the statement by Ryan Kaufman about LFL decreeing that there could not and would not be a set number of clones makes the matter rather clear-cut. As is, since the highest authority (par Lucas) has decided that there will not be a set number of clones stated, the 3,000,000 figure flies out of the window. This allows us to start attempting to set the apparently contradictory pieces of evidence together. One method of doing this is to simply use the mention of “Grand Armies”. There are multiple “Grand Army” formations with the most commonly used name for the forces for public consumption also being The Grand Army of the Republic.

    There is also the question of fleet size. The Republic ordered 1,000 Acclamator-class ships at the outset of the war with un-stated number of warships beginning to fill up the ranks of the Navy. It is also stated in the RoTS: ICS (again from a narrators perspective) that the Separatists had millions of warships locked in battle with Republic fleets. Are we supposed to accept a fleet capable of taking on 2,000,000+ strong Separatist navy, but a primary ground combat branch numbering 3,000,000? Not to mention, if we are to accept the statement of all Acclamator’s being crewed by clones in Triple Zero, we would arrive at 16,000,000 clones for the Acclamator’s alone. Once again a direct contradiction if trying to justify 3,000,000 as a total number of clones.

    There were more armies later in the war I believe (the ROTS ICS mentioned them anyhow) but initially its just Kamino doing it. Which makes sense since a possible bottleneck in troop production will be available transport anyhow. Any excess clones will be little more than garrison or defense troops (and non-clones already served that role as it is).

    Later, as war production increases, it seems more likely that outright escalation of cloning will continue on other worlds and facilities, therefore exceeding the original “1.2 million unit more” shipment mentioned prior to the raid on Geonosis.”

    Ah, Never knew higher canon said something like that.

    “There are multiple instances during the Hoth chase scene in which Star Destroyers (pursuing the Falcon) fire bracketing shots at Han and company with the light quad laser turrets mounted along the trench, which score direct hits against and manage to outright vaporize several 30-50 meter nickel-iron asteroids (based on scaling alongside the Falcon) in 1/15th of a second.

    “Dr. Curtis Saxton suggested on the technical commentaries website that the asteroids did not shatter because the melting/vaporization was “supersonic”. This means that the asteroids were melted/vaporized before this expansion stress could take effect. This appears to be a valid theory, since the entire vaporization process took approximately 1/15 second.

    Later Mike Wong writes:

    “This idea deserves further explanation: speed is everything. Thermal conductivity through the asteroid’s mass is insufficient to account for the effects we saw, because the rock simply cannot conduct that much heat that quickly, even if it’s pure iron. The effect would be more of an explosive effect, with a tiny area being superheated and a concussive shock wave moving out and shattering the asteroid. However, in order to shatter these asteroids so quickly, the fragments would have had to move through the rest of the asteroid at more than 600 m/s! This would require extremely rapid large-scale deformation of material, and the mechanics of solid material deformation happens to be an area which I’ve studied in depth. Deformation involves work, as defined by the stress-strain curve of the material, and that work becomes energy in the resulting deformed matter; this effect is known as work heating. The question of whether the asteroid was heated or shattered is therefore moot, because the act of shattering it at such great speed would create so much work-heating that the resulting material would be superheated anyway.”
    “The energy required to vaporize a 40 meter nickel-iron asteroid is up to 500 kilotons, but based on the speed of the vaporization and the fact that the debris went from white hot to invisible liquid globules in less than a second, the amount of energy pumped into asteroid could be anywhere from 500 kilotons to 1.5 megatons. Thus representing a decent lower limit for light turbolaser firepower.”

    This is based if it is an actual vaporization. It could be a shattering(but that is illogical as Wong noted), but I see how it would make sense for it too be a vaporization. Why is the material supposedly Iron/Nickel?

    “Your inclination towards obvious platitudes being one thing. But…

    …G-canon (the highest canon) demonstrates the shielded Millennium Falcon tanking shots that were between 100,000 to 3,000,000 times more energetic than those that were pulverizing the Venator’s in the upper atmosphere (or 1000 times less energetic than the AT-AT at maximum firepower). Why were heavy warships being taken down by such puny detonations in the upper atmosphere of a planet when a small frigate just less than 20,000 times the volume was easily surviving shots that would have caused ten kilometer wide fireballs to erupt in the upper atmosphere of the planet? Shots that against a shielded warship should have been utterly useless by several orders of magnitude.

    Now according to your disapproval of the C-canon in general (since the ICS isn’t the only source that advocates gigaton level firepower), we should dismiss T-canon as well since it contradicts an even higher canon. Now do you see how unattainable your position is? You can’t throw out canon because it seems silly to you, because then you’re forced to challenge everything else but the immediately highest authority, which then goes unchallenged by lower canon sources.

    Thus your cherry picking is not only intellectually dishonest, but doomed to fail anyway.”

    Can you list sources that advocate giga-ton range? And didn’t you just throw out lower canon because of a higher canon source? The reason I don’t follow the ICS’s description of firepower is because we never see this large giga-ton to Terra-ton affects in the show or movie, but now I see where your going with this whole meteor thing. Can you give more instances?

  77. L-W January 28, 2010 at 7:59 pm -      #77

    I’m going to have to come back later since I’m kind of busy right now (give me three to four hours to finish my current project), but what the fuck did I tell you about quoting the ENTIRE body of my work? I know what it looks like, I know what it is, you’re simply just padding your own posts.

  78. Shadow Archon January 28, 2010 at 8:32 pm -      #78

    “I’m going to have to come back later since I’m kind of busy right now (give me three to four hours to finish my current project), but what the fuck did I tell you about quoting the ENTIRE body of my work? I know what it looks like, I know what it is, you’re simply just padding your own posts.”

    Oh, I thought you meant at Spacebattles.

  79. L-W January 29, 2010 at 2:56 am -      #79

    1) “The only reason I debate is for fun. ”

    Come back when you can at least hold an argument worth more than a few syllables. Or when someone doesn’t have to repeat a point a dozen times for it sink in for you.

    Either way a High Schooler should not have to have this pointed out to him, but I guess this is the most tragic thing about the education system, some people will inevitably fall through the cracks. An armored warship should not even be remotely fatally damaged by an energy event 3,000,000 times less energetic than that which a small shipping Frigate of the same era can shrug off with ease.

    The difference between the two events is quite literally the difference in scale between a 9mm pistol round and 300 separate M1 120mm tank rounds being fired simultaneously on a single target; they just don’t even compare on the same scale, yet you’re convinced that they would be viable anti-ship weapons in naval combat between multiple heavily shielded vessels.

    2) “First off, I was not clear, I did not mean the Ewok village, I meant a planet occupied by a planetary Ewok civilization. Its still not clear however. There can be primitive planetary civilizations. But still, you do bring up a good point, I am sorry for the appearance of dishonesty. I really would only think of a planetary civilization is a unspecified civilization that occupies the entire planet.”

    A planetary civilization is the transition stage between industrial era and space age power in which (as I’ve already stated previously) a singular civilization governs the total sum of the resources available to that planet which is approximately between 10E16 and 10E17 W availability for power generation capabilities. Earth specifically has an available power of 1.74×10E17 W (174 petawatts). Kardashev’s original definition was 4×10E12 W, or a “technological level close to the level presently attained on earth”. See the following link to learn more:

    articles.adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/nph-iarticle_query?db_key=AST&bibcode=1964SvA…..8..217K&letter=.&classic=YES&defaultprint=YES&whole_paper=YES&page=217&epage=217&send=Send+PDF&filetype=.pdf

    Whilst a primitive civilization can attain total territorial globalization (although incredibly limited), it cannot attain total cultural, territorial, political, military, economic, consumer and technological globalization without first going through the stages necessary to generate and consume the energy demanded by a population of said scale. Therefore a planetary civilization has a clear definition, one that you cannot misconstrue through your deliberate application of idiocy, one that is very clear on the parameters set by the scientific vernacular and one that is generally accepted as the pre-space age transitional epoch of industrial society following widespread agriculture and the development of early civilization.

    Or are you going to tell me now that the Ewoks will reach the space stage before industrialization with no form of evolution in between? Since the quote is VERY clear on this (which I believe you refuse to concede to since you don’t wish to lose the last of your unattainable positions in this debate) and in fact states “a Star Destroyer consumes as much ENERGY in a single hyperjump as many PLANETARY CIVILIZATIONS will consume in their entire LIFETIMES”. A planetary civilization could last for hundreds of thousands of years before advancing from the industrial age to the next transitional era (in our case it will probably last a century or two), but the point still stands, a hyperdrive jump will consume as much energy as that entire singular planet dominating civilization could hope to produce in an entire lifetime throughout this very specific evolution in technology.

    How stupid are you exactly to believe that a civilization will go from pre-agricultural tool use to fully fledged space flight and stellar construction with no development period between? Are you dumber than a rock? A slab of lead? How about a vat of vitrified molten slag? Honestly, no one should have to be explaining these very basic concepts to you at your stage of learning.

    3) “Ah, Never knew higher canon said something like that.”

    Which is why much of Travisses work is being retconned or discarded by the majority of Lucas employees, since God incarnate has decreed that no source will ever give the true number of Clones in existence throughout the war, therefore no source can ever give a definite number of how many there truly are.

    My opinion? They started off with three million, but as the Republic realized that a war with the Separatists would inevitably spread beyond Geonosis and throughout the outer and innermost rims of the galaxy (YODA: If Dooku escapes, rally more systems to his cause, he will.), they realized they would need a lot more Clones than originally ordered, so cloning and training was ramped up on a Republic wide scale with multiple systems taking on both orders of vessels, guns and manpower (such as Kuat, which built up several thousand vessels in the first year).

    4) “This is based if it is an actual vaporization. It could be a shattering(but that is illogical as Wong noted), but I see how it would make sense for it too be a vaporization.”

    It can ONLY be vaporization. Fractured asteroids don’t turn invisible, they leave large chunks of shattered rock and partially melted globules of other matter. Neither does the entire mass glow white hot for a split second, leave small coalesced blobs of superheated liquid that are metastable in the process of vaporization, evaporate into invisible gas within a fraction of a second. Solid visibly glowing debris would have continued to be visible for at least ten seconds as it cooled; no such thing happened here other than an asteroid that was being pumped with nearly several orders of magnitude more energy than it could physically tolerate (vaporization).

    5) “Why is the material supposedly Iron/Nickel?”

    Tales of the Bounty Hunter, Pg 102:

    “Solo’s last maneuver had been to strafe the Star Destroyer. Then he’d gone off the scopes. Dengar figured Solo must have gone back into the asteroid field. Perhaps Solo had shut down systems for a bit, so that his own ship seemed no more than an asteroid, but as Dengar sped into the asteroid field himself, he saw that even Solo himself wasn’t crazy enough to risk such a manoeuvre. Rocks the size of his ship hurtled toward him, and these weren’t the soft carbonaceous chrondites that his weapons might punch a hole through- these were nickel-iron rocks that could smash him to pieces.”

    Takes place during the Hoth asteroid-field chase in TESB, as Dengar attempts to hunt down Solo. It describes the composition of the Hoth asteroids in the immediate vicinity of the Star Destroyers where Solo was last seen, thus laying to rest any notion that they are carbonaceous. They are definitely high-density nickel-iron rocky asteroids.

    It appears in this scene that the side of the asteroid facing the turbolaser bolt was vaporized, and the resulting liquid/gas then heated and vaporized the remainder of the asteroid. This suggests that the TL bolts are again much more powerful than was simply required to vaporize the asteroids.

    However, the boiling point is affected because the asteroids are in vacuum. The boiling point of any material is directly related to the atmospheric pressure surrounding it. In space, the atmospheric pressure is zero. However, at the same time, the asteroid vaporization was “supersonic” which means that the TL bolts carried much more energy than is required for vaporization. The vaporization estimate is on the correct order of magnitude, and actually conservative. It can be used as a conservative lower limit for the power of turbolasers.

    6) “Can you list sources that advocate giga-ton range?”

    A) On pg. 248 of Slave Ship, the following narrative description is provided of the recoil absorption mechanism on a typical turbolaser cannon:

    “the laser cannons being mounted into the open skeletal frames required bracing and recoil-dissipation casings that would have withstood explosions measured in the giga-tonnage range. Anything less, and a single shot fired in battle would rip a destroyer or battle cruiser in two, a victim of its own lethal strength”.

    This text actually describes laser cannons rather than turbolasers, but the colloquial usage of the terms “laser cannon” and “turbolaser cannon” are so intermingled that we cannot be sure that this does in fact refer to a laser rather than a turbolaser. Since turbolasers are more powerful than lasers, the conservative route is to assume that it refers to turbolasers. Being in the giga-tonnage range could range from 1 to 999 gigatons.

    B) Imperial Sourcebook pg 61:

    An orbital bombardment operation of a Star Destroyer is referred to as reducing “a civilized world to slag”.

    C) Star Wars Technical Journal pg 89:

    A Base Delta Zero is referred to reducing “a planet’s surface to smoking debris in a matter of hours”.

    D) Return of the Jedi novelization: The combined bombardment of the Rebel fleet causes the Death Star II to rock back and forth.

    E) Lando Calrissian and the StarCave of ThonBoka:

    “Unfortunately for the Navy, and high-technology aggressors everywhere in space and time, invasions cannot be conducted with continent-destroying weapons or from behind shields. Not unless you’re willing to obliterate the enemy, and not at all if you’re interested in taking what the enemy has: raw materials, agricultural products, certain manufactured goods, and the potential labor of her citizens.”

    “Her weaponry and defenses ran the gamut from continent-destroying turbolasers to small teams of unarmed combat experts. She had been a gift of prudence from the highest and consequently most vulnerable of sources in the galaxy.”

    Describes an Imperial cruiser.

    7) “And didn’t you just throw out lower canon because of a higher canon source?”

    Are you so fucking stupid that you can’t see a point when you see one?

    Let me repeat it.

    “Now according to your disapproval of the C-canon in general (since the ICS isn’t the only source that advocates gigaton level firepower), we should dismiss T-canon as well since it contradicts an even higher canon. Now do you see how unattainable your position is? You can’t throw out canon because it seems silly to you, because then you’re forced to challenge everything else but the immediately highest authority, which then goes unchallenged by lower canon sources.

    Thus your cherry picking is not only intellectually dishonest, but doomed to fail anyway.”

    You can’t throw out one source without losing a tenable position on another, therefore cherry picking IS DOOMED TO FAIL YOU. Why are you so conditionally blind to this fact?

    8) “The reason I don’t follow the ICS’s description of firepower is because we never see this large giga-ton to Terra-ton affects in the show or movie, but now I see where your going with this whole meteor thing. Can you give more instances?”

    But you’re happy to use T-canon as a quantifiable measure of disproving C-canon material when T-canon blatantly contradicts G-canon? This makes you a CHERRY PICKER. How dishonest are you willing to be here?

  80. shaun182 January 29, 2010 at 3:15 am -      #80

    “My opinion? They started off with three million, but as the Republic realized that a war with the Separatists would inevitably spread beyond Geonosis and throughout the outer and innermost rims of the galaxy (YODA: If Dooku escapes, rally more systems to his cause, he will.), they realized they would need a lot more Clones than originally ordered,”

    i always imagined more, since it was palpatine plan to cause a galactic war in order, to place himself in a position to take control of the galaxy, and in order to do so would take an army of considerable size.

    but what really gets me is when obi-wan is touring kamino, and being shown the troops, he is told there is a million units are the way, now is a unit a single clone trooper or a whole squad perhaps more.

  81. L-W January 29, 2010 at 3:42 am -      #81

    1) “i always imagined more, since it was palpatine plan to cause a galactic war in order, to place himself in a position to take control of the galaxy, and in order to do so would take an army of considerable size.”

    There were cloning facilities on multiple worlds and systems that quickly boosted Clone production overnight from several million to possibly billions or trillions more (the Essential Atlas mentions trillions of troops) which was further supplemented by conscripts and other non-Clone combatants.

    2) “but what really gets me is when obi-wan is touring kamino, and being shown the troops, he is told there is a million units are the way, now is a unit a single clone trooper or a whole squad perhaps more.”

    Ryan Kaufman had this to say.

    “FYI, re: 3 million. LFL was very clear to us that no fixed number of total clones would or could be assigned. Therefore, the number 3 million (plus) does not represent the entire fighting force.”

    We also have statements in regards to the size of the Droid army being in the quintillions, so the Grand Army of the Republic would have to be able to at least contend with them on a numerical basis to survive.

  82. L-W January 29, 2010 at 7:19 am -      #82

    For the more “challenged” amongst, let me reiterate my original point on globalization in the form of a humorous caricature of real life that can appeal to young audiences:

    There once was a planet called Endor occupied by a sentient species known as the Ewoks, and on this planet existed only two habitable continents (simply referred to as A and B); the first of which the Ewoks evolved upon, the second continent, whilst equally habitable, contained no sentient life.

    After years of development in minor tool use, a small clan of Ewoks from continent A decide to sail out to sea and make a new home, they say their goodbyes, promise to write back and set sail. Years later they arrive at continent B, and after decades of hardship in the new land begin to flourish and prosper through new hunting methods and agricultural techniques.

    After centuries both civilizations prosper separately, forming new dialects, accents, languages, art forms, technologies and even unique markets and commodities; whilst the Ewoks cover the entire planet, they aren’t a globalized entity, therefore they aren’t a planetary civilization.

    So they begin to trade with one another after eons of isolation:

    With rafts this is far too slow, nothing ever occurs on a large enough scale to effect the scope of their unification. So they build sailed ships to carry vast swathes of cargo, but the conditions necessary for these vessels to operate are far too tenuous, so they develop ships that can operate under their own volition (thus the first powered system). Perhaps war breaks out between the two civilizations, forcing them to coat their vessels in hard metallic alloys that require excess energy to mine, process, shape, cut and mold.

    What about the population? New population growth requires new food sources, which means an expansion of industry and agriculture; pesticides, transport, cultivation all require energy to quickly distribute food to potentially millions of hungry mouths.

    Bigger populations require bigger infrastructure such as communications and transport, which ease the boundaries of globalization between the two continents; steam boats, planes, Morse code, written letters, trains, automobiles, cruisers, jets, the internet, stock trading, the open market etc. All energy consuming systems designed to accommodate the growth of potential globalization.

    Once the gulf between the two continents is closed through technology (whether diplomatic or forced), the two cultures absorb or suppress traits of the other civilizations through either exchange or military action, eventually becoming closer and more alike over the centuries until they eventually amalgamate and become a single civilization.

    A PLANETARY CIVILIZATION!

  83. Dudeman123 February 1, 2010 at 3:30 pm -      #83

    So L-W, are you Mike Wong or are you just plaguerizing his work?

  84. L-W February 3, 2010 at 4:29 am -      #84

    I reference Mike Wong all the time in previous posts on here and other debates, whether I cite it all the time is irrelevant and has little to do with whether or not I’m “Plagiarizing” where the occasional faux pas is involved.

    Or are you operating under the delusion that I’m attempting to gain to intellectual credibility by attempting to pass off one of the most heavily sourced Star Wars related analysis sites as my own?

    You fucking idiot.

  85. Siggymansz February 3, 2010 at 6:19 am -      #85

    @dudeman

    you need to lurk moar

  86. Shadow Archon February 3, 2010 at 1:53 pm -      #86

    “Or are you operating under the delusion that I’m attempting to gain to intellectual credibility by attempting to pass off one of the most heavily sourced Star Wars related analysis sites as my own?”

    You copied it word for word in some areas without giving Mike Wong credit.

    “As per Newton’s third law of motion, for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Therefore, the reaction torque corresponding to the Frigate’s angular acceleration must be equal to the torque applied by the turbolaser bolts in question. But the angular acceleration must occur in the exact same timeframe as the duration of the turbolaser impact itself, so we can formulate the resultant energy in the following formula:

    p = Iw/x
    \ p = U/c
    \ U = cIw/x

    We also need to determine the length, height and width of the Munificent, which are handily provided by the ICS.

    Ship length = 825m \ radial length = 412m
    Width = 426m
    Height = 243m

    From the following snapshot of the AT-TE bombardment (I was under the mistaken impression they were SPHA-T platform,s but they serve the purpose as a demonstration of Republic ground forces firepower), we can determine the distance from the center of the Frigate to the turbolaser impact point x = 400m. From the Frigates size and shape I estimate that its volume is roughly 85,402,350 cubic meters. If we assume that 95% of this volume is air and the remaining material has the density of iron, then the mass is approximately 36,949,940 tons.

    From the following video (from the start of its rotation to the point where it reaches its maximum angular displacement of 30 degrees in one second), we can deduce that the angular velocity w = 2 radian/s.

    www.watchtheclonewars.com/Watch-Clone-Wars-Episode-6-Downfall-of-a-Droid.html

    I = M [I = mr^2 = 36949940 x 412 m x 412 m = 6272030615360 ton m^2]

    Axis through center: I = 1/12 x mR^2 [I = 1/12 x 36949940 tons x 181476 m + 680625 m = 2654548351995 tonm^2.]

    I = 2.65e15 kg m^2

    Next we must calculate the energy of the bolts in question:
    U = cIw/x
    \ U = 2000 x 2.65e15 x 2 / 400m
    \ U = 2.65e16 J = 26500 TJ

    Finally we must compensate for the angle of approach. We can estimate from the above screenshot that the turbolasers approached at an angle of roughly 30 degrees. This means that the energy estimate must be divided by sin(30) to account for geometric factors. Therefore, the energy of the bolt would be roughly 53000 TJ. Given the distribution of AT-TE vehicles, this places the output of each vehicle at around one megaton each. If these bolts are mass-less particles such as photons (e.g. if their operating principle is similar to lasers), and my estimate for the Munificent-class mass is correct, then the lasers carry approximately 53000 TJ of energy. The turbolasers appear to strike during the space of a second, but to be conservative we should assume that the bolt duration is roughly half a second due to the velocity of each round. Therefore, the corresponding laser power level is 106000 TW. ”

    www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/…eam/Calc1.html

    Mike Wong=
    As per Newton’s third law of motion, for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Therefore, the reaction torque corresponding to the Falcon’s angular acceleration must be equal to the torque applied by the turbolaser:

    T1 = T2
    \ Ia = Fx
    F = p/t
    \ p = Ia t/x

    However, a = w /t and the two time terms refer to the same time element (the angular acceleration must occur in the exact same timeframe as the duration of the turbolaser impact). Therefore, the a t term simplifies to w, and the above equation simplifies to:

    p = Iw/x
    \ p = U/c
    \ U = cIw/x

    Estimates for variables

    There are no canon figures for the length, width, thickness, and mass of the Millenium Falcon. However, Robert Brown has done extensive work analyzing this famous star freighter in his Falcon web-site at www.synicon.com.au/sw/mf/falcon.htm. I used his figures for the saucer diameter and height of the Falcon:

    *

    Saucer diameter = 27m \ radius r = 13.5m
    *

    Saucer thickness = 6.9m
    *

    From the following snapshot of the precise moment of impact, we can determine the distance from the centre of the Falcon to the turbolaser impact point x = 7m
    Millenium Falcon is hit
    *

    From the Falcon’s size and shape I estimate that its volume is roughly 4000 cubic metres. If we assume that 95% of this volume is air and the remaining material has the density of iron, then the Falcon’s mass is approximately 1500 tons. This estimation method makes the Falcon’s average density similar to the Enterprise-D’s average density according to the Star Trek Technical Manual.
    *

    From the following pair of snapshots (from the start of its rotation to the point where it reaches its maximum angular displacement of 35 degrees in 8 NTSC 0.03-second frames), we can deduce that the angular velocity w = 2.29 rads/s.
    Just after impactKnocked off course

    Calculations

    Step 1: Calculate moment of inertia:
    Moment of Inertia formulaSubstituted values
    \ I = 7.44E7 kg·m²

    Step 2: Calculate turbolaser energy:
    U = cIw/x
    \ U = 3E8 · 7.44E7 · 2.29 / 7m
    \ U = 7.29E15 J = 7290 TJ

    Step 3: Compensate for the angle of approach:
    Incoming TL bolt
    We can estimate from the above snapshot that the turbolaser approached at an angle of roughly 30 degrees. This means that the energy estimate must be divided by sin(30°) to account for geometric factors. Therefore, the energy of the TL bolt would be 14580 TJ.

    Conclusion

    If turbolasers use mass-less particles such as photons (eg. if their operating principle is similar to lasers), and my estimate for the Millenium Falcon’s mass is correct, then turbolasers carry approximately 14580 TJ of energy. The turbolaser appears to strike during a single 1/30-second NTSC frame in this sequence, but to be conservative we should assume that the bolt duration is roughly 1/15 seconds. Therefore, the corresponding turbolaser power level is 218700 TW.

    As an aside, the rotational kinetic energy of an object is 0.5Iw² at non-relativistic rotational speeds. Therefore, 3.902E8 joules of rotational kinetic energy were added to the Millenium Falcon. However, the physics of collisions involve conservation of linear or angular momentum rather than conservation of kinetic energy, which only happens in elastic collisions.”

    That is Plagiarism in my book. Because of that, I don’t trust you, that’s why I quit this debate. You can insult me, but that will not change my opinion. Also, your blatantly dishonest as to the fact that AT-TEs don’t use turbo lasers, there mass drivers last time I checked.

  87. Siggymansz February 3, 2010 at 2:11 pm -      #87

    @Shadow archon
    You need to lurk moar

  88. Siggymansz February 3, 2010 at 2:18 pm -      #88

    @Shadow Archon
    1 LW has stated previosly in other posts that he gets alot of shit form mike wong
    (the firts one that comes to mind is somewhere in one of the SSD Vs posts)

    2. correct me if i am wrong but i was under the impression that debates were facts vs facts backed up by reasoning i dont see how trying to discredit someone by calling Plagiarism on them is debating

    3 no one gives a shit if its Plagiarism ITS THE FUCKING INTERNET

    im pretty sure there is arule in the rule place of this site bout that shit 2 (could be wrong tho) soz for gramer/spelling but i couldn’t give 2 shits right now its 4AM

  89. MEGADOOMER February 3, 2010 at 2:36 pm -      #89

    Somebody tell me what series the Protoss is from so I can look it up.

  90. admin February 3, 2010 at 3:13 pm -      #90

    @MEGADOOMER – Protoss Carrier is from a little known game named Starcraft.

  91. Kenny C. February 3, 2010 at 3:37 pm -      #91

    ” That is Plagiarism in my book. Because of that, I don’t trust you, that’s why I quit this debate. You can insult me, but that will not change my opinion. Also, your blatantly dishonest as to the fact that AT-TEs don’t use turbo lasers, there mass drivers last time I checked.”

    – Well thats one way to admit defeat like a dick.

  92. MEGADOOMER February 3, 2010 at 3:43 pm -      #92

    That reminded me of SW Episode 2 & 1/2: Return of the Dicks.

  93. Shadow Archon February 3, 2010 at 5:41 pm -      #93

    “1 LW has stated previosly in other posts that he gets alot of shit form mike wong
    (the firts one that comes to mind is somewhere in one of the SSD Vs posts)”

    He directly copies Mike Wong’s calculation without giving him credit. The fact that he says that the AT-TE is using a turbo laser, when it actually is a mass driver, makes the calculation entirely useless.

    “2. correct me if i am wrong but i was under the impression that debates were facts vs facts backed up by reasoning i dont see how trying to discredit someone by calling Plagiarism on them is debating”

    He copied a calculation depicting one event and put it to another event entirely. You don’t do that when your replacing a ship with a tank, especially when they use entirely different weapons.

    “3 no one gives a shit if its Plagiarism ITS THE FUCKING INTERNET”

    You do when you know the other debator can be blatantly wrong about stolen calculations.

    “- Well thats one way to admit defeat like a dick.”

    So, you don’t care that he stole another man’s thoughts and words? Anyways, there is too many unknown variables to get a true answer. We know Protoss Super Carriers can crack planets in minutes and we know that ISDs can slag worlds in hours, but we do not know Protoss range, shield strength, FTL speeds, STL speeds, and other such characteristics. Like the other thread involving the Tau empire, its best to wait until SC2 Legacy of the Void.

  94. Shadow Archon February 3, 2010 at 5:47 pm -      #94

    Here is the URL again, since it doesn’t work.

    www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tech/Beam/Calc1.html

  95. Kenny C. February 3, 2010 at 5:51 pm -      #95

    ” So, you don’t care that he stole another man’s thoughts and words?”

    – Considering he freely admited the source, in this thread alone I can see Mike Wong sourced in comment # 175, and has stated that he uses the man’s work on several other occasions….. no, not really.

    I really just think you’re trying to one up L-W after he’s pretty much destoryed you in this thread.

  96. MEGADOOMER February 3, 2010 at 5:56 pm -      #96

    You just got burned!

  97. Shadow Archon February 3, 2010 at 5:58 pm -      #97

    “Considering he freely admited the source, in this thread alone I can see Mike Wong sourced in comment # 175, and has stated that he uses the man’s work on several other occasions….. no, not really.”

    He did not source the calculation or give Mike Wong credit for the calculation.(Its almost a direct copy, almost.) The fact that he did this makes be doubt all of his calculations. We know that AT-TEs don’t even use Turbolasers. They use mass drivers, which throws the entire calculatoin out the window.

    “I really just think you’re trying to one up L-W after he’s pretty much destoryed you in this thread.”

    No, its that I’m debate on sites where plagiarism is a perma-ban offense. it has nothing to do with who was winning the argument.

  98. MEGADOOMER February 3, 2010 at 6:01 pm -      #98

    Burn! Firefight!

  99. L-W February 3, 2010 at 8:20 pm -      #99

    “That is Plagiarism in my book. Because of that, I don’t trust you, that’s why I quit this debate. You can insult me, but that will not change my opinion. Also, your blatantly dishonest as to the fact that AT-TEs don’t use turbo lasers, there mass drivers last time I checked.”

    i139.photobucket.com/albums/q311/Lew88/alderaanconcessionvy4.jpg

    1) Last time I checked, I did reference Mike Wong in that very same post (several paragraphs before in fact), and whilst I made the mistake of incorporating his calculation without directly proceeding it with a reference to his original analysis, this was more of a genuine faux pas on my behalf rather than an outright disregard for intellectual property.

    Unless you really want to prove that I plagiarized one of the most popularly used and most well known analytical websites on the web next to the technical commentaries (one that I use as a reference in pretty much any thread utilizing Star Wars based discussion) in an attempt to claim intellectual property then you better have some serious evidence to back that claim up; serious fucking evidence.

    2) You’re opinion of me aside (which is a meaningless, but albeit cute gesture that deserves a place on a Hallmark card), you still have yet to address ant facet of any one of my rebuttals, such as your:

    A) Such as you contesting that naval fire millions of times less energetic than that used to lightly damage a small frigate should be anywhere near harmful to a shielded warship.

    B) Your deliberate misinterpretation of the definition of a planetary phase civilization (and total misunderstanding of what globalization refers to) based on another misinterpretation of yours from a line in the Death Star novel.

    I could continue to pad my post, but let me just finish with this; mewling moral superiority aside, you still have yet to demonstrate anything that would suggest that your argument is anyway tenable or that your dismissal of C-canon using T-canon is at least valid.

    Concession accepted, I guess.

  100. MEGADOOMER February 3, 2010 at 8:24 pm -      #100

    What the hell do AT-HE’s have anything to do with this?

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