Agrias Oaks Vs Saber

Agrias Oaks Vs Saber

Suggested by DokuSaki

Agrias Oaks (Final Fantasy Tactics) versus Saber (Fate/Stay Night)

First round would be latest versions of each
Second round is composites versions.

Should also note that all sword skills are learned and her second job class would be white mage.

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48 Comments on "Agrias Oaks Vs Saber"

  1. Rookie February 26, 2015 at 7:04 am -      #1

    Saber wins IMO.

  2. hermetic_harbinger February 26, 2015 at 7:08 am -      #2

    Agrias is the more experienced and powerful Holy Knight, and yes she can be equipped with Excalibur, or even Save The Queen to make her Holy Sword techniques all that much more powerful. So I am going with Agrias on this one, depending on if we’re going with Fate Zero, or Fate Stay Night.

  3. wingedlion February 26, 2015 at 7:28 am -      #3

    “First round would be latest versions of each”

    There are different latest versions of saber. You have to specify which one.
    Is it Fate? UBW? Or Heaven’s Feel?

  4. andrew February 26, 2015 at 7:43 am -      #4

    >Wingedlion

    most recent saber is half way through UBW 2014.

    >Hermetic_Harbinger
    it rather depends if Agrias’ versions of excalibur equal up to things like FSN Excalibur, or Gae Bolg.

    composite saber wins round two. Avalon is simply too powerful a defensive device to say otherwise.

  5. wingedlion February 26, 2015 at 7:44 am -      #5

    “most recent saber is half way through UBW 2014.”

    No. The anime is not canon. The visual novels are.

  6. Nsl98 February 26, 2015 at 9:05 am -      #6

    Tactics characters can dodge single shot bullets.

    Though it might be useless since Saber is an anime/manga character or something.
    —–
    Those dudes are typically pretty fast.

  7. andrew February 26, 2015 at 9:09 am -      #7

    “No. The anime is not canon. The visual novels are.”

    really? Did Nasu ever say anything like that?

  8. Friendlysociopath February 26, 2015 at 9:18 am -      #8

    You realize the class abilities being restricted is purely a game mechanic right? The main characters don’t even change model when they change class- there’s no reason not to have them all at once except that is would be OP.

    And what does composite Agrias even mean? There’s only 1 Agrias.

  9. Friendlysociopath February 26, 2015 at 10:21 am -      #9

    So, a list of equipment Agrias has access too

    finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_Final_Fantasy_Tactics_Accessories
    In particular:
    Chantage- a perfume that grants permanent Reraise and Regen status effects.
    Septième- a perfume that gives permanent invisibility and haste.
    Onion Glove- Grants immunity to what looks like every status effect in the game
    (only available to Onion Knight class)

    finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_Final_Fantasy_Tactics_Weapons#Knight.27s_Swords
    Some weapons Agrias can use:
    Excalibur- gives haste and regen, absorbs and boosts holy magic
    Durandal- gives both shell and protect
    Chaos Blade- gives regen, hitting an opponent inflicts stone

    finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Holy_Knight_(Tactics)
    and then a list of just Holy Knight abilities:
    Judgement Blade- Inflicts stop status
    Cleansing Strike- Inflicts doom status
    Northswain’s Strike- Inflicts KO
    Hallowed Bolt- Inflicts silence
    Divine Ruination- Inflicts confusion

  10. jhud February 26, 2015 at 10:59 am -      #10

    Just wow ff characters are usually op so leaning in that direction, never seen fate stay sadly.

  11. Nsl98 February 26, 2015 at 11:07 am -      #11

    And what does composite Agrias even mean? There’s only 1 Agrias.

    Every class available maybe?

  12. Cypher February 26, 2015 at 12:59 pm -      #12

    Saber’s magic resistance of A would definitely be an edge. It’s strong enough to no-sell a lot of Caster’s magical blasts and only barely lowers her parameters when dealing with Rider’s petrifying gaze. Many of the status ailments inflicted on Saber are probably just not going to work.

    And what defences can Agrias have? Would they be enough to tank an Excaliblast that can atomize a giant sea monster like Caster’s Cthulhu beast?

  13. Friendlysociopath February 26, 2015 at 1:51 pm -      #13

    And what defences can Agrias have?

    With maximum bravery her reaction commands that prevent her from taking damage will always activate. These commands allow you to block bullets with your bare hands, among other things.
    She has several accessories which will give her permanent reraise and regen.
    And some of her armor comes with reflect. The best armor comes with regen, reraise, protect, and shell all permanently on.
    Most of her best weapons also grant absorption of holy/light attacks.

  14. wingedlion February 26, 2015 at 5:58 pm -      #14

    “really? Did Nasu ever say anything like that?”

    He wouldn’t have to say anything. Anime adaptation are always considered non-canon to the original versions, unless it’s explicitly stated otherwise.

  15. andrew February 26, 2015 at 6:21 pm -      #15

    “He wouldn’t have to say anything.”

    except he comments on the anime based on his VN’s and LN’s fairly often, and in some cases, Kara no Kyoukai for instance, has said he prefers them to his own, and hasn’t shown any antipathy at all towards FSN 2014, and has actually been contributing to the production:
    www.siliconera.com/2014/01/31/fatestay-night-co-creator-talks-upcoming-anime/
    so, basically, UBW is usable.

  16. wingedlion February 26, 2015 at 6:48 pm -      #16

    “except he comments on the anime based on his VN’s and LN’s fairly often, and in some cases, Kara no Kyoukai for instance, has said he prefers them to his own, and hasn’t shown any antipathy at all towards FSN 2014, and has actually been contributing to the production:”

    Your point being…. what exactly?
    I never said he didn’t like it. I said it wasn’t canon. Him saying that he likes it doesn’t make it canon all of a sudden.
    Did he say it was canon? Otherwise we go by the visual novels.
    It doesn’t help that there are several things in the anime contradicting the visual novel as well.

  17. Friendlysociopath February 26, 2015 at 10:52 pm -      #17

    So, I’m just going to throw out a standard Agrias build- if everyone likes it we could just go from there. This is for scenario 1.
    I imagine composite Agrias would be all classes at once? In which case she’s well and truly immortal by any stretch of the word in scenario 2.

    Abilities:
    Primary: Holy Knight
    Secondary: White Mage
    Reaction: Blade Grasp
    Support: Dual-Wield
    Movement: Teleport

    Equipment:
    Left Weapon: Durandal
    Right Weapon: Excalibur
    Armor: Grand Armor
    Headgear: Brass Coronet
    Accessory: Sage’s Ring

    Summary:
    Absorbs power from holy attacks while strengthening her own. Absorbs all elemental attacks used on her. Cannot be silenced. Has permanent reraise, regen, shell, protect, and haste status effects. Can teleport across the entire battlefield. Can deflect physical attacks with blade grasp.

  18. wingedlion February 27, 2015 at 6:30 pm -      #18

    “Absorbs power from holy attacks while strengthening her own. Absorbs all elemental attacks used on her. Cannot be silenced. Has permanent reraise, regen, shell, protect, and haste status effects. Can teleport across the entire battlefield. Can deflect physical attacks with blade grasp.”

    Wouldn’t some of those be no limit fallicies though? More specifically the first and second sentences.

    Alright well i guess i’ll rundown through what Saber can do. This is going to take a while.

    Strength:
    In Fate Zero, the battle between Saber and Lancer had iron, asphalt, warehouses, and storehouses around them being torn apart by the very force of their blows:
    “If it was merely a clash between cold steel, what would be the mighty torrent of air that accompanied it and threatened to destroy all within sight?
    The foot that landed crushed the ground.
    The wind that followed the swinging of weapons crudely severed the lamp post in half.
    Irisviel could no longer see the movements carried out at such high speeds. She was only feeling the after-shock of the conflict between the two.
    The peeling sheet iron on the outer walls of the warehouses was ripped away by the wind from Irisviel’s side as if it was a piece of coiled tin foil. She could not comprehend how the iron can be torn away. Perhaps it was Saber’s sword or Lancer’s spear that brushed against its adjacent hollow space. Apart from that, she could not come up with any other explanation.
    The wind was moaning.
    Faced with a dimension that is completely at odds with the physical laws of this world, the air emitted paranoid wails.
    A chaotic storm raged on the empty shopping street, destroying, trampling all things within.
    Just hand-to-hand combat between the two would be enough to ruin an entire street.”

    “Two storehouses had already collapsed, and a hundred square meters of asphalt were torn up. Turned into a battlefield, it was almost as if an earthquake has just came and gone.”
    -Fate/Zero, Act 3.

    Can fling a stone slab weighing several tons in the air:
    “Along with her roar, the clump of air pressure—which had the momentum to sweep away an army of thousands and was supported by the release of prana – impacted heavily on the top of the stone slab; the slab, which looked as if it must weigh at least several tons, was easily flung into the air.”

    Has no problems lifting up a truck, or kicking it aside:
    “She brandished the flat of her blade upward, flinging the structure of the vehicle into the air.”

    “Saber kicked aside the burning vehicle wreckage”
    -Fate Zero, Act 16.

    Speed:
    Can trade blows with and overwhelm Lancer(F/SN), who was able to trade 100 blows with Archer in an instant.
    i.imgur.com/BQlzGM6.png
    i.imgur.com/9boGXJW.png
    i.imgur.com/Fze1peu.png

    Can go FTE:
    An unknown number of rounds had been fought; perhaps tens of rounds, perhaps hundreds of rounds. It was simply impossible to determine with a mortal eye. After the lance and sword of the two clashed, they finally separated, and moved away from each other.
    -Fate/Zero, Act 11
    i.imgur.com/zc22Wwf.png


    Can destroy bone warriors so fast that it looks like a snowstorm of bones scattering around.
    i.imgur.com/QujYGCN.png

    Fast enough to run up a building and maneuver around it.
    i.imgur.com/mANX5I5.png
    i.imgur.com/gGbGc62.png

    Dashing and dodging through barrages of bullets:
    “Without the slightest hesitation, Saber leaped into the air, dashing out through a baptism of flying lead bullets. The stray bullets of unimaginably destructive power tore open a large hole in the cement of the ground and walls. That power obviously could not be spoken of in tandem with the weapon that Maiya had used. Saber sensed that even though she was a Servant, if she were hit she would be fatally wounded;”
    -Fate/Zero, Act 16

    Finally, can rival the speed of an F 15 fighter jet, which wikipedia tells me is mach 2.5:
    “By good command of footwork as a Servant, Saber would be able to rival a jet fighter in speed and galloped on top of the water.”
    -Fate/Zero, Act 10

    Durability/Endurance:
    She with the help of her armor was able to survive some blows from the rain of noble phantasms.
    img153.imageshack.us/img153/6704/saber16wd4.png

    Can use the wind around her sword to create an invisible wall.
    img153.imageshack.us/img153/3561/saber09tn0.png

    Manages to stand after nearly getting cut in half.
    img153.imageshack.us/img153/2531/saber05jr7.png
    She was able to heal that large wound an hour later.

    Speaking of which, I almost forget to mention Saber’s regeneration. She has no problems regenerating from being stabbed in the chest
    img153.imageshack.us/img153/9279/saber06aaz7.png

    Prana Burst:
    “A normal weapon that is not on the level of a divine mystery can be destroyed in one blow. Raises defense in several times. (Artoria uses this skill mainly for defense and high-speed movement. As Saber Alter, her magical energy will cover her body in this fashion regardless of her will)”

    Prana burst is the ability for someone to basically enhance themselves or their weapons with Prana. The first sentence of that description basically means that if you simply have a normal weapon that is not on the level of powerful magical weapons like noble phantasms or mystic codes, this will happen:

    Does Agrias have a normal sword?

    Instinct:
    “Refined sixth sense is now close to true precognition. Bonus effect of reducing by half the penalties caused by obstructed vision and hearing.”

    Basically Saber’s own spidey sense (I don’t know why it says “close to true precognition”, she clearly shows precognitive tendencies in the novel). Saber can predict her opponents attacks and react accordingly, and she will be made aware if any attacks coming at her are especially dangerous to her. It can even help to prevent her from fatally underestimating an opponent. Instincts also allow Saber to identify the best possible way to achieve victory against her opponent over the course of battle.

    Noble Phantasms:
    “Invisible Air
    Rank: C
    Type: Anti-Unit
    Range: 1~2
    Maximum Targets: 1 Object

    A barrier that renders the blade hidden by entangling it with layers of wind, and altering the light refraction rate. It is closer to a sorcery than a Noble Phantasm. By using this barrier, Artoria can attack without the opponent recognising the sword’s reach and trajectory. Since concealing one’s Noble Phantasm also conceals one’s true identity, Invisible Air was highly effective at the early stages of the Holy Grail War. It also has other advantages such as increasing attack power and accuracy. Entangling the sword with wind and using the wind as the blade enhances the attack power, while having an “invisible weapon” provides an advantage in accuracy. Since the advantage of Invisible Air lies in “invisibility”, the accuracy increase will not occur while engaging opponents who possess Eye of the Mind or do not depend on vision.
    In the Fourth Holy Grail War, Artoria unleashed the condensed air and used it as a long-range weapon that mauls down groups of enemies — “The Iron Mallet of the Wind King”.”
    -Fate/complete material III: World Material – The Servants of the Fifth Holy Grail War: Saber, p.020-021

    “Excalibur
    Rank: A++
    Type: Anti-Fortress
    Range: 1~99
    Maximum Targets: 1000 Persons

    The greatest and most powerful Noble Phantasm of Artoria. It is the strongest and most majestic holy sword that symbolises King Arthur. The pinnacle of holy swords. Excalibur was not forged by mankind, but crystallised within the Earth, using the wishes of mankind as the basis. It is one of the ultimate God-forged weapons, a Last Phantasm. Originally cared for by the Faeries of the Planet, it was passed into the hands of King Arthur through the Lady of the Lake.
    Excalibur converts the mana of the wielder into light, and as the sword is swung, the light is released from the tip of the blade like a laser beam and destroys everything in its path. Of course, the mana consumption is extreme, thus it cannot be fired consecutively. In the Fourth Holy Grail War, the beastly giant sea monster summoned by Caster was completely incinerated by this Noble Phantasm. Excalibur is classified as an ‘Anti-Fortress Noble Phantasm” due to its magnitude and destructive power.”
    -Fate/complete material III: World Material – The Servants of the Fifth Holy Grail War: Saber, p.020-021.
    It should be noted that in the event of Saber destroying Caster’s sea monster, Excalibur completely atomized it.
    ““Ex – calibur!!!”

    Light galloped.
    Light roared.
    The prana, accelerated by the factor of the released dragon, became a streak of light, a swirling and surging torrent that devoured the sea demon together with the dark night.
    A silent scream rose within the river water evaporating in an instant, as every single atom composing the body of the giant sea demon that had been the embodiment of terror were exposed to the scorching impact.”
    -Fate/Zero, Act 10

    “Avalon
    Rank: EX
    Type: Bound Field
    Maximum Targets: 1 Person
    The sheath of Excalibur, a Noble Phantasm with its origin in the Fairyland Avalon where King Arthur rests. The wielder will heal from any wound, and the aging process will cease. Unleashing the true name of Avalon will deploy a Bound Field that provides the greatest defence. A Noble Phantasm that annuls the interference of True Magic; its existence is equivalent to True Magic.
    In legend, losing this sheath casted an ominous shadow onto the life of King Arthur, eventually cascading to the collapse of the kingdom. In modern times, the Einzberns excavated Avalon at Cornwall and passed it into the hands of Emiya Kiritsugu. Afterward, it was planted into the body of Emiya Shirou to save his life, eventually becoming the link that led to his bond with Artoria. In Fate Route, Artoria learned that Shirou was her “sheath”, which led the duo to emerge victorious in the Holy Grail War.”

    More information on Avalon:
    “The Everdistant Utopia [Noble Phantasm]
    Avalon.
    The paradise in the Arthurian legends; a scabbard bearing the name of the Faerie Land.
    The utopia Avalon was thought to be derived from the island that produced the “Apple of Immortality” in Greek mythology.
    Avalon mended all wounds and halted the wielder’s aging process. After unleashing its true name, Avalon would break into hundreds of shards and shield the wielder from all interference.
    The sheath of the holy sword was excavated by the Einzberns from Cornwall. It was given to Kiritsugu as a catalyst to summon King Arthur.
    It was a Noble Phantasm reaching the realm of True Magic. Avalon shut out all physical interference, operation of parallel worlds, and multi-dimensional communication (up to the sixth dimension).
    If Saber went hikikomori, no one would reach her.”

    True magic in the Nasuverse are (currently) 5 very powerful Sorceries different from regular magic (or magecraft, as it’s called in the Nasuverse. So far it includes time travel and magic, the operation of parallel worlds( basically the manipulation of parallel dimensions), and powerful soul manipulation to the point where you can literally make souls exist on the physical plane. All of this, plus multidimensional and physical interference as well as the fact that Avalon displaces Saber from reality and brings her to the domain of fairies, allows Saber to become untouchable when using it. Even when unactivated, Avalon boosts her regeneration to the point where only the destruction of the brain can kill Saber. It also boosts her regeneration speed to the point where, just like in Arthurian myth, she never lost a drop of blood.

    In terms of incarnations for the first scenario, with her fate incarnation she gets access to Avalon, but has weaker stats because of Shirou. Therefore, it may be questionable to apply her Fate/Zero physical feats to her. But other than that all of her other physical feats are still fair game.
    Her UBW incarnation has much better physical stats, restoring Saber to how she was when she was alive. Her Fate/Zero feats apply to her in this state, however she no longer has access to Avalon.
    Her HF incarnation is her as Saber Alter. In this state her magical energy (or prana) is infinite, and she can spam Excalibur as many times as she wants. Her prana burst is constantly covering her like a dense fog, and combined with her armor her defense and endurance is increased. However, her instincts is lowered as a result of suppressing the rage that angra mainyu is influencing her with. She also is less precise with her swordsmanship than other incarnations, instead preferring to smash her opponent with overwhelming power. Also like her UBW incarnation she no longer has Avalon, but Fate/Zero feats stil apply.

    Whew, my god that was alot.

  19. wingedlion February 27, 2015 at 6:36 pm -      #19

    Dammit, i hate it when that happen. The relevant part for the Axtaria video is 7:04

  20. Friendlysociopath February 27, 2015 at 6:59 pm -      #20

    We’re debating two of the most gaming mechanics made canon characters of all time, one of which has zero feats, and you’re asking about NLFs? Saber’s holy attacks aren’t that powerful.

  21. wingedlion February 27, 2015 at 7:58 pm -      #21

    “We’re debating two of the most gaming mechanics made canon characters of all time, one of which has zero feats, and you’re asking about NLFs? Saber’s holy attacks aren’t that powerful.”

    First of all, what are you talking about? Saber doesn’t run on game mechanics.

    Secondly, why would that exempt Agrias from no limit fallacies? We don’t make characters from games immune to everything simply because they are in the games.

    Finally..
    www.baka-tsuki.org/project/images/a/a1/FZ_v03_081.png
    This is how big the monster that Saber atomized was. So unless she can absorb that much holy power, there’s no reason to believe that Excalibur wouldn’t destroy her. I should also mention that she vaporized the river along with it.

  22. Friendlysociopath February 27, 2015 at 8:53 pm -      #22

    Saber doesn’t run on game mechanics.

    Yes she does? Some resistances and attacks in her universe outright work based on a ranking system. If that isn’t game mechanics I don’t know what is.

    Secondly, why would that exempt Agrias from no limit fallacies? We don’t make characters from games immune to everything simply because they are in the games.

    Because:
    1) Agrias comes from a game that has zero feats so if you give no leeway at all we can do nothing. Even her blocking bullets with her hands is pure game mechanics of having a high bravery score.
    2) Because element absorption works the same in every Final Fantasy. So feats should cross over since they all work the same.
    Meaning you can absorb:
    Tidal waves enough to level a city if you can absorb water magic.
    And a an ice demon that can freeze over a city block solid will do nothing to you if you can absorb ice.

    And Tactics pulled a bit of an asinine move with this:

    So we have no idea how large anything in the game actually is since they all take up one square. I always wondered how dragons could be so small.

    Oh, I stand corrected, I forgot- FF12 and Tactics are the same universe. We’ve got a bit to work with then.

  23. wingedlion February 27, 2015 at 9:12 pm -      #23

    “Yes she does? Some resistances and attacks in her universe outright work based on a ranking system. If that isn’t game mechanics I don’t know what is.”

    … But those are not game mechanics.
    Game mechanics are stuff that don’t make any logical sense in real life.
    The entire point of the ranking system is to compare what is stronger than the other, that’s it. In no way do they fall under game mechanics at all.

    “1) Agrias comes from a game that has zero feats so if you give no leeway at all we can do nothing. Even her blocking bullets with her hands is pure game mechanics of having a high bravery score.”

    You seem to be under the impression that i’m saying we can’t use anything from the game itself. I’m not. There’s no reason at all for her blocking bullets to be a game mechanic. Game mechanics are shit like having your health bar worth some number like 9999, cause in no logical way does that makes sense in real life (as health bars don’t exist).

    “2) Because element absorption works the same in every Final Fantasy. So feats should cross over since they all work the same.
    Meaning you can absorb:
    Tidal waves enough to level a city if you can absorb water magic.
    And a an ice demon that can freeze over a city block solid will do nothing to you if you can absorb ice.”

    You say this like everyone in Final Fantasy has the same amount of magical aptitude, or as if there aren’t different versions of spells (Dissida pretty much proves that this can be the case). So unless there is proof that she can be scaled to those people in you mentioned, simply mentioning the affects of spells in the other games isn’t going to work. Not to mention none of those examples have to do with holy attacks.

    “Oh, I stand corrected, I forgot- FF12 and Tactics are the same universe. We’ve got a bit to work with then.”

    Can you tell me which one of them in particular can do holy damage? I forgot quite a bit about those summons.
    Also, can the characters truly absorb all the damage the summon deals upon them?

  24. Friendlysociopath February 27, 2015 at 9:41 pm -      #24

    Can you tell me which one of them in particular can do holy damage? I forgot quite a bit about those summons.

    The second to last one, Ultima, does holy damage.

    Not to mention none of those examples have to do with holy attacks.

    The principle would remain the same, why would water absorption be any better than holy absorption when they’re exactly the same in FF?

    Also, can the characters truly absorb all the damage the summon deals upon them?

    Yep, at least for those final attacks. Regular attacks maybe not, I forget how Espers really work in 12, I was not found of it.
    And remember, absorption means they heal off it, I’m not saying Agrias would just laugh off Excalibur. But be able to take a few hits from it? Particularly with shell and protect? That sound fair.

  25. wingedlion February 27, 2015 at 9:59 pm -      #25

    “The second to last one, Ultima, does holy damage.”

    I see. That’s pretty impressive.

    “The principle would remain the same, why would water absorption be any better than holy absorption when they’re exactly the same in FF?”

    Wait, it’s one type of absorption spell?
    Sorry, it’s been a while since i reviewed FF spells.

    Anyways, I may come back to the holy bit later.
    How is Agrias in close combat?

  26. Friendlysociopath February 27, 2015 at 10:13 pm -      #26

    Wait, it’s one type of absorption spell?
    Sorry, it’s been a while since i reviewed FF spells.


    No worries, I’m good at remembering things, even stuff I don’t need to remember (Stupid childhood cartoon theme-songs)
    Yeah, her absorbing all elements comes from the Sage Ring. It’s a bit repetitive since her Excalibur also absorbs Holy but eh, permanent Haste from Excalibur is too good to pass up.

    How is Agrias in close combat?

    If she has Blade Grasp equipped, she is able to deflect blades and bullets with her bare hands and/or swords.
    The rest is RPG land, no real feats for durability,strength, or speed. I guess for speed I’ll just point out teleport is pretty much restricted only by eyesight since you can out-teleport guns and longbows.
    Huh, actually, I take back the strength bit. Remember the big horned things? She can physically shove those backwards.

    And then we have the completely un-quantifiable stuff like protect, shell, regen, and reraise. Even haste is a bit vague unless I use powerscaling.

  27. wingedlion February 27, 2015 at 10:35 pm -      #27

    I see. Well based on what’s shown Saber definitely seems to have a physical advantage over her, being able to tear up storehouses with the force of her blows as well as easily racing a fighter jet (as i said before, considering that was an F-15, Saber is technically Mach 2.5).
    And then there is her precognition, meaning even if Agrias get’s the chance to use teleport to try and surprise her, Saber will know where she’s gonna be.
    Also, i asked earlier, but you probably missed it. Is Agrias’s sword just a normal sword? Because if it is that would be really bad for her, as Saber can break it with prana burst.

    Edit: My bad. Just noticed that she is wielding Excalibur and Durandal. However are they especially tough in anyway?

  28. Friendlysociopath February 27, 2015 at 10:57 pm -      #28

    However are they especially tough in anyway?

    They deal more damage than regular swords and their descriptions say they’re holy blades made by spirits. Beyond that, no.

    even if Agrias get’s the chance to use teleport to try and surprise her

    Was thinking more of using it to dodge stuff like Excalibur blast.

    Could I hear more on Saber’s magic resistance? Because that’s really all this comes down to is whether Agrias can hax her way to victory. Unless someone would want to make the argument that permanent reraise + regen makes you immortal, which I personally wouldn’t.

  29. wingedlion February 27, 2015 at 11:54 pm -      #29

    “Could I hear more on Saber’s magic resistance?”
    Sure.
    Magic Resistance:
    Rin, a powerful magus, has enough magical energy in her jewels that they are powerful enough to destroy a mansion:
    i.imgur.com/uOcGp3F.png
    an even an entire church:
    i.imgur.com/nFPXBg3.png
    And yet despite this fact, cannot hurt Saber in the slightest:
    img153.imageshack.us/img153/4451/saber01akz5.png
    img153.imageshack.us/img153/2136/saber01bhu6.png

    Caster’s magical blasts can easily match Rin’s jewels and can scorch the ground red with magical energy:
    i.imgur.com/mdhULfu.png
    And yet throughout the fifth war, Saber is basically shown to be Superman compared to Caster, being completely invincible to everything she can do, including stuff like gravity weighing or space freeze.
    There’s also the fact that no modern mage in the Nasuverse is capable of hurting her. And IIRC, there capable of quite a few hax. I’ll probably get to it eventually.
    Could i hear more on Agrias’s spells?

  30. Friendlysociopath February 28, 2015 at 12:27 am -      #30

    Could i hear more on Agrias’s spells?

    I posted them above for Holy Knight (post #9)
    Other than that, White Magic is just a crap ton of healing spells that won’t really be useful.

    Now, for composite she’d be able to:
    Use black magic (fire, ice, thunder)
    Use time magic (time stops, time slow, meteor)
    Use Geomancy (Magic that changes based on where you are)
    Use Oracle magic (mostly focuses on status effects
    Use Calculator magic (Allows her to target anyone, anywhere)
    Use mediator skills (Not sure how these would work tbh, you essentially talk people into doing things)
    Use Summons (self-explanatory)

    Of all of that, only a few have feats of breaking though barriers and resistances:
    Flare
    Meteor
    Holy- in particular, holy absolutely cannot miss
    Utlima
    Bahamut Summon

    Judging by what you’ve posted, Agrias loses both in physical and magical fighting.

  31. FlameStrike February 28, 2015 at 2:41 pm -      #31

    Saber’s magic resistance is really insane. She can completely no-sell Caster’s age of the gods level A ranked magic, which would insta kill a similar servant like Archer who has lower magic resistance. Even a space-time freeze spell only holds her for like a second. So I’m guessing any weak spells like Fire, Ice, or Thunder, she could just ignore. Maybe some crazy stuff like Meteor could damage her, but it would probably be reduced damage.

    Saber also seems to have better physical feats. She feats on a hypersonic level, with all her strikes creating sonic booms and such, and her strength in enormous. Also she has her combat Instincts. They’re so good that it’s almost like having precognition. If Agrias tries something like a sneak attack on her blindspot, Saber will feel it coming. Saber’s precognition can even save her from attacks she has never seen before, like Assassin’s Tsubame Geashii. Basically it was a sword technique that splits reality and makes one strike into three simultaneous strikes. With her precognition Saber sensed something was wrong and was able to find a small opening to survive the attack.

    Also Excalibur’s beam attack LOOKS like a holy attack, but that’s not necessarily so. Excalibur takes the user’s mana and amplifies it into an ultimate beam of destruction. When Saber is corrupted into Saber Alter, Excalibur does a “dark” colored beam. So it’s more of a neutral mana-based attack imo.

    There’s some talk of Agrias catching bullets, but Saber can do that too. Well she could just plain no-sell normal bullets hahaha.

    Oh yeah composite Saber, does that mean a fusing of all of Saber’s numerous different incarnations? Like Saber Alter, Saber Lily, Mysterious Heroine X, etc? Hahaha

  32. Abominatus674 February 28, 2015 at 6:43 pm -      #32

    From the Fate: Complete Material (via Type-Moon wiki), magic resistance “grants protection against magical effects. Differently from the Resistance effect that merely rejects prana, this ability cancels the spells altogether”, and with Saber’s A rank, she can “Cancel spells of A-Rank or below. In practice, the Servant is untouchable to modern magi, so it would not be an exaggeration to title the Servant a “Magus Killer””. So magic doesn’t just get resisted, but cancelled out completely unless it is obscenely high level.

    In terms of bullet dodging, she was able to dodge fire from Berserker’s fighter jet, so hat’s something. Especially considering they were amplified by his NP.

    One question, though, is how Saber is fuelled. She needs to get prana from somewhere to function, otherwise she could do at most one Excaliblast, and be severely weakened physically.

  33. Friendlysociopath February 28, 2015 at 10:04 pm -      #33

    Also Excalibur’s beam attack LOOKS like a holy attack, but that’s not necessarily so.

    Excalibur and it’s attack are repeatedly described as ‘holy’ and ‘divine’ in their descriptions. I accept Agrias being outclassed, but that one is not true.

  34. Namer March 1, 2015 at 4:52 am -      #34

    Also Excalibur’s beam attack LOOKS like a holy attack, but that’s not necessarily so.

    Excalibur and it’s attack are repeatedly described as ‘holy’ and ‘divine’ in their descriptions. I accept Agrias being outclassed, but that one is not true.

    Excalibur is the penultimate ‘blessed’ weapon in the Nasuverse. I’m pretty damn sure it’d count as ‘holy’.
    .
    Of all of that, only a few have feats of breaking though barriers and resistances:
    Flare
    Meteor
    Holy- in particular, holy absolutely cannot miss
    Utlima
    Bahamut Summon
    .
    And that gets stonewalled by Avalon. Even if its conceptual defense can be considered a NLF, its feat of blocking Ea puts it beyond anything Agrias can dish out.
    (Ea is capable of destroying Gaia’s reality marble, making it planetbusting at the low end in layman’s terms. I think in Extra, it went up to Galaxybusting, destroying the Moon Cell’s reality marble, but Extra isn’t entirely canon).

  35. DokuSaki March 2, 2015 at 10:15 am -      #35

    Sorry i am late. I kinda have been busy with work> So i will clarify. Latest version of saber would be HA or CP. As for people doubting Agries Realize she will be equipped with Tynar Rouge witch doubles her speed, halfs all damage she takes and gives her a small healing factor. Plus with auto life, if requires multiple deaths to kill her.

  36. DokuSaki March 2, 2015 at 10:25 am -      #36

    Also sorry for the double post. but these skills do not count as magic and as such saber does not have defense the dragon blood.
    finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Holy_Knight_%28Tactics%29

    Another thing to note is that they are instant and un-blockable cost no mana and can be spammed, have no element unless a sword is elemental and i don’t think in both cases i don’t think that matters, I think saber will be resistant to the status effects because they are magic by nature.

  37. PrimusxPilus March 3, 2015 at 3:48 pm -      #37

    Saber takes this for the reasons listed

  38. Friendlysociopath March 3, 2015 at 3:54 pm -      #38

    @Doku
    Halving 10x damage required to kill you is still 5x enough damage to kill you. Agrias does not have the feats to deal with Saber.

    Unless we want to revive the argument about Tactics characters being able to react to lightspeed attacks again; Agrias can barely even react to Saber since we can’t qualify Haste in any meaningful fashion.

    We also can’t really decide what regen and reraise does.

  39. wingedlion March 3, 2015 at 7:03 pm -      #39

    @Namer
    “I think in Extra, it went up to Galaxybusting, destroying the Moon Cell’s reality marble, but Extra isn’t entirely canon).”

    It didn’t go up to galaxy-busting. It’s still anti-world.
    Also, Extra is actually canon. The Nasuverse is a multiverse, and Fate/Extra is simply one of it’s mirror universes. The only difference between the universes of Stay/Night and Extra is that a certain ritual in the 1970s (suggested to be the Aylesbury Valesti) dried the world of all it’s mana, leading to how the world eventually turns out. Otherwise, however, what applies to Gilgamesh in that universe should apply to the Stay Night universe as well.

    @Friendlysociopath
    “Unless we want to revive the argument about Tactics characters being able to react to lightspeed attacks again”

    Didn’t they?

    “We also can’t really decide what regen and reraise does.”

    Isn’t that just regeneration and resurrection?

  40. Friendlysociopath March 3, 2015 at 8:19 pm -      #40

    Didn’t they?

    If they can then this just switched around because Saber will never be able to touch Agrias. Damned if you do, damned if you don’t.

    Isn’t that just regeneration and resurrection?

    If that were true then Agrias literally cannot die, she has several items that give both of those permanently.

  41. wingedlion March 3, 2015 at 8:39 pm -      #41

    “If they can then this just switched around because Saber will never be able to touch Agrias.”

    Not necessarily. Agrias having light speed reactions would simply mean that Saber can’t blitz her. It’s not like she’s light-speed in movement. Saber still has the strength and speed advantage (not counting reactions at least), with the advantage of pre-cog. And then there is the fact that Agrias still can’t see invisible air. If anything she could still overwhelm her in strength

    “If that were true then Agrias literally cannot die,”

    That would depend on the level of resurrection that she has(i.e has she came back from being cut in half, decapitation, etc).

  42. wingedlion March 3, 2015 at 8:46 pm -      #42

    “strength”

    Meant to say close combat.

  43. Friendlysociopath March 3, 2015 at 8:48 pm -      #43

    That would depend on the level of resurrection that she has(i.e has she came back from being cut in half, decapitation, etc).

    That’s tricky… in Final Fantasy you only ever come back from being KO’d, not outright killed. Although apparently in some games it’s actually referred to as dead. However… in Tactics you go from being KO’d to turning into a crystal…
    I don’t know.

    But to summarize what you can recover from:
    Anything those summons can throw at you
    Having your soul sucked out
    Being stabbed/cut/shot
    Poisoned, set on fire
    Mustadio recovers from being shot point blank by a futuristic golem
    And getting struck by a meteor
    Being turned into a frog and then killed
    I think you can drown in Tactics actually
    Boy this is actually a fairly long list

  44. Zazax March 3, 2015 at 9:52 pm -      #44

    “That’s tricky… in Final Fantasy you only ever come back from being KO’d, not outright killed. Although apparently in some games it’s actually referred to as dead.”
    The term changes from game to game, yeah. ‘Dead’ is used in a lot of the older games, although things like ‘Swoon’ pop up now and then too.

    “However… in Tactics you go from being KO’d to turning into a crystal…”
    My understanding of the way it worked in Tactics was that characters didn’t actually ‘die’ until they turned into a crystal/chest, after which they can’t be revived anymore, which is supported by the condition being called ‘KO’ instead of, you know, ‘Dead’.
    This would mean that Reraise/Phoenix Downs/etc. don’t actually revive from death, unfortunately.

  45. Riverlia March 7, 2015 at 11:23 pm -      #45

    *Also, Extra is actually canon. The Nasuverse is a multiverse, and Fate/Extra is simply one of it’s mirror universes. The only difference between the universes of Stay/Night and Extra is that a certain ritual in the 1970s (suggested to be the Aylesbury Valesti) dried the world of all it’s mana, leading to how the world eventually turns out. Otherwise, however, what applies to Gilgamesh in that universe should apply to the Stay Night universe as well.*
    —-
    The question is whether the feats can be applied to the original verse or just strictly the Extra version, since the Servants used in that one is from Moon Cell record and capable of growth, unlike the one summoned in Heaven Feel.

    I’m all for assuming the feats are applicable, but frankly, CCC feats are just too insane compare to F/SN, making it’s a bit hard to believe.
    The only one I had no trouble believing is Arcueid, since she was always presented as an Ultimate Being whose power is even an outlier to Moon Cell Servant system.

  46. wingedlion March 9, 2015 at 11:26 pm -      #46

    “I’m all for assuming the feats are applicable, but frankly, CCC feats are just too insane compare to F/SN, making it’s a bit hard to believe.”

    I’m assuming that you are talking about the FTL feats the servants had, correct? If so, that’s not really a big deal for two reasons:
    1. The servants were under a major power-up at that time, and cannot normally do that at all.
    2. None of the servants actually went FTL. The servants were able to cross such a distance in such a short amount of time based on a hax ability that they had, which varies depending on the servant (Gilgamesh using a FTL space ship, Caster manipulating physics, etc).
    So there’s actually no contradiction between the servants of the original verse and Extra(well except for Archer; he’s noted to be slightly different from his F/SN counterpart).

  47. Riverlia March 10, 2015 at 5:20 am -      #47

    *1. The servants were under a major power-up at that time, and cannot normally do that at all.*
    —–
    Even discounting this, Servant was capable of increasing their stat under the Moon Cell system, which F/SN Servant cannot, so I’m still quite skeptical.
    ====
    *So there’s actually no contradiction between the servants of the original verse and Extra(well except for Archer; he’s noted to be slightly different from his F/SN counterpart).*
    —-
    That’s a given consider the divergence is in 1970, which mean his heroic career happened after the world diverged.
    I’m actually surprised he remained so similar to F/SN Archer.

  48. wingedlion March 10, 2015 at 6:05 pm -      #48

    “Even discounting this, Servant was capable of increasing their stat under the Moon Cell system, which F/SN Servant cannot, so I’m still quite skeptical.”

    That’s also actually not a problem for, once again(lol), two reasons:
    1. We actually have the official stats of the servants under Hakuno, so we can just use those.
    2. I don’t recall any new feats that would have anything to do with their physical abilities in Extra, so even if it can be altered, it doesn’t really matter much.

    “That’s a given consider the divergence is in 1970, which mean his heroic career happened after the world diverged.
    I’m actually surprised he remained so similar to F/SN Archer.”

    It’s actually pretty weird now that i think of it.

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