Darkseid, Cyborg Superman and Uriel Vs Gorr, Bills and Ultron

Darkseid, Cyborg Superman and Uriel Vs Gorr, Bills and Ultron

Suggested by Rookie

Darkseid (DC comics), Uriel (Bastard!!) who make his first appeareance here and Cyborg Superman (DC Comics) who also make his first appearence here going up against Ultron (Marvel Comics), Lord Bills (Dragon Ball Z) and Gorr the God Butcher (Marvel Comics) who is the last (but not least!) person to make new appearence here in this match.

-

Cyborg Superman have six Sinestro rings.

 

Ultron have his strongest body from “Annihilation: Conquest” Story Arc.

 

Uriel have his Augoeides.

 

Gorr is at his peak.

 

Who wins?

 

Related Posts:



Read before commenting! We welcome constructive comments and allow any that meet our common sense criteria. This means being respectful and polite to others. It means providing helpful information that contributes to a story or discussion. It means leaving links only that substantially add further to a discussion.

Comments being disrespectful to others or otherwise violating what we believe are common sense standards of discussion can lead to the banhammer getting used. You can read more about our comments policy here.



128 Comments on "Darkseid, Cyborg Superman and Uriel Vs Gorr, Bills and Ultron"

  1. Warlock Lowk February 4, 2015 at 8:01 am -      #1

    So Uriel, millions of attacks/spells in a second
    i.imgur.com/pgtgSDl.jpg
    i.imgur.com/GAx9a7A.jpg
    i.imgur.com/k2XEU74.jpg
    i.imgur.com/NWCqmGa.jpg
    Not a real big Bastard!! fan but if he’s got anything about planet busting that definitely an advantage against team 2.

  2. Jake_Uzumaki February 4, 2015 at 8:21 am -      #2

    So strongest Annihilation Ultron body means Phalanx Ultron if I’m not mistaken…and the strongest body would be the kaiju sized self regenerating Ultron
    i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb6/Enteithegreat/Ultron/Tech/Buildsarobotbody2.jpg~original
    i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb6/Enteithegreat/Ultron/Fights/Phalanx%20Ultron/EndgameUltron.jpg~original
    i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb6/Enteithegreat/Ultron/Fights/Phalanx%20Ultron/EndgameUltron2.jpg~original

  3. Warlock Lowk February 4, 2015 at 8:28 am -      #3

    Apparently Uriel and D.S. destroyed something that was bigger then the sun

  4. CH1C4N0444 is allergic to bullets February 4, 2015 at 8:34 am -      #4

    @Rookie What incarnation are Cyborg Supes and Darkseid, or just standard current incarnation?
    =
    Hmmm, kinda hard to tell, Gorr has a lot of feats, but most of them are off panel(i.e. killing hundreds of gods including an eldar god and skyfathers)and not too much on panel.
    =
    Gorr tanks planet busting blows from Thor like they were his dinner:

    static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11112/111126195/3291996-4180709447-QiyJA.jpg
    =
    Was covering a star with ABtNS:

    static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/9/91339/3120011-thor_-_god_of_thunder_009-018.jpg
    =
    Tanked an all out blast from Skyfather Thor:

    static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/13/132594/3273232-thor+-+god+of+thunder+009-007.jpg
    =
    Was capable of chucking sizeable pieces of moon at the Thors:

    static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/13/132594/3273231-thor+-+god+of+thunder+009-008.jpg
    =
    Most of the other stuff is pretty much all fights, so not really something I like to use.
    =
    Bills blew up some planet looking things at the end of DBZ:BotGs:

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_jqHzbLraI

    21:13 till Whis knocks him out.
    =

  5. Warlock Lowk February 4, 2015 at 8:46 am -      #5

    I just realized the difference between manga and comics powerhouses. I mean both do some crazy shit. Difference is, comics generally need to keep a sort of power cap to ensure the main character doesn’t get too powerful for the current story. Has to keep in mind future incarnations and junk.
    Manga/anime(Asura’swrathspecialmention) have legit endings. Meaning they get to go wild cuz endgames son. This has what all the escalating power-ups and special techniques have been building up to.
    EDIT: Well at least the ongoing stuff like Marvel and DC

  6. Rookie February 4, 2015 at 10:40 am -      #6

    @CH1C4N0444 is allergic to bullets

    Pre New 52 for Darkseid (unless current Darkseid is stronger) and pre-new 52 Cyborg Supes (does he even have .Sinestro rings in New 52?)

    @Jake_Uzumaki

    “So strongest Annihilation Ultron body means Phalanx Ultron if I’m not mistaken…and the strongest body would be the kaiju sized self regenerating Ultron”

    He also managed to fight against Adam Warlock:
    i1329.photobucket.com/albums/w541/Listor3/Ultron%201_zpsa1vs9dc2.png
    i1329.photobucket.com/albums/w541/Listor3/Ultron%202_zps6u0ct3lj.png

  7. Rookie February 4, 2015 at 10:42 am -      #7

    Also Ultron survived explosion of the star:
    i1329.photobucket.com/albums/w541/Listor3/Ultron%203_zpseurqfei2.png
    i1329.photobucket.com/albums/w541/Listor3/Ultron%204_zpstlmzfts2.png
    i1329.photobucket.com/albums/w541/Listor3/Ultron%205_zpss4o3ogwx.png

  8. Rookie February 4, 2015 at 11:02 am -      #8

    @Warlock Lowk

    “Not a real big Bastard!! fan but if he’s got anything about planet busting that definitely an advantage against team 2.”

    Seraphs were already confirmed planet busters with ability to FTL:
    i1329.photobucket.com/albums/w541/Listor3/Uriel%201_zpshtlbipau.png
    Uriel is Taxiarch archangel-class angel (above seraphs in power)+all the powers he got after his fall.
    Explanation about Augoeides (this was not Uriel’s Augoeides, but author give us some info about all Augoeides here):
    static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11115/111151927/3887409-konron+1.jpg

  9. Jake_Uzumaki February 4, 2015 at 11:12 am -      #9

    Cyborg Supes only showed up once in N52 that I know of, specifically during the SuperDoom Brainiac fuster cluck as Brainiac’s attack dog.

    And just wanted to make sure that was the correct incarnation (ie Phalanx).

  10. Rookie February 4, 2015 at 11:20 am -      #10

    @Jake_Uzumaki

    “And just wanted to make sure that was the correct incarnation (ie Phalanx).”

    Yep, this is his form for this battle.

    Uriel destroys all DS defensive spells with a single attack:
    static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11115/111151927/3877248-uriel+14.jpg
    static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11115/111151927/3877250-uriel+16.jpg

    And destroys a black hole:
    img.bato.to/comics/2011/11/28/b/read4ed3aa28499b8/img000128.jpg
    img.bato.to/comics/2011/11/28/b/read4ed3aa28499b8/img000129.jpg

  11. Xornell February 4, 2015 at 11:35 am -      #11

    Pretty sure Gor is carrying Team 2.

    Then again, CS and DS on Team 1 are lacking in N52 feats. I’d say we could probably go ahead and use pre-52 feats for them, but both have changed significantly since then.

    I actually have two months worth of DC comics I haven’t read because the god awful writing was getting to me.

  12. Friendlysociopath February 4, 2015 at 11:45 am -      #12

    Aren’t DBZ characters rather lackluster compared to comic characters?

  13. Xornell February 4, 2015 at 11:50 am -      #13

    Generally, yes. If they could do everything they said they can, then they’d be able to compete. But the problem is lack of concrete feats. DBZ-supporters would have you believe sun busting is casual by the end of Z, but we only ever see planets busted the entire series.

    Didn’t see the Sinestro rings before, either. That could help out a lot.

  14. Rookie February 4, 2015 at 11:54 am -      #14

    @Xornell

    ” I’d say we could probably go ahead and use pre-52 feats for them, but both have changed significantly since then.”

    Yep, we use pre-New 52 Cyber and Darkseid here.

  15. Aelfinn February 4, 2015 at 3:27 pm -      #15

    Bills is just dead weight here. No confirmed FTL, and he appears to be another Glass Cannon like most DBZ characters, which means he gets turned into a bloody smear when the fight starts.

  16. Jolttra February 4, 2015 at 3:42 pm -      #16

    Cyborg Superman can control all machines with his mind. Ultron would be completely under his control. So now it’s 4 vs 2.

  17. Nsl98 February 4, 2015 at 3:43 pm -      #17

    I think Gorr could take Darkseid. Ultron could provide back up for a little bit.

    Initially with Team 1.

  18. DokuSaki February 4, 2015 at 3:51 pm -      #18

    I think I can prove bills is ftl only if I am allowed to power scale.

  19. Rookie February 4, 2015 at 3:55 pm -      #19

    @DokuSaki

    “I think I can prove bills is ftl tof I am allowed to power scale.”

    Bills is the strongest in Dragonball except for his master and Frieza (from next 2015 movie) so powerscaling might work.

    @Jolttra

    “Cyborg Superman can control all machines with his mind. Ultron would be completely under his control. ”

    Ultron also have similar ability.

  20. DokuSaki February 4, 2015 at 4:01 pm -      #20

    Was gonna use goku and then do multipercation but I need my calculator and some formulae that I need to look up.

  21. Aelfinn February 4, 2015 at 4:05 pm -      #21

    “I think I can prove bills is ftl only if I am allowed to power scale.”

    The fastest anyone has gone in DBZ is 1/5 the speed of light, IIRC. Power levels and Super-Saiyan increases are inconsistent at best, completely unreliable at worst.
    =
    For what it’s worth, Superman didn’t hold back against Cyborg Superman, and even called his metal “indestructible” (even though Superman had actually destroyed Cyborg Superman once).
    media.animevice.com/uploads/0/7229/273066-cy14oq_super.jpg

    The problem with Cyborg Superman, as far as I can tell, is that most of his “feats” come in fights, which as we all know can be filled with PIS.

    Still fairly impressive when you can fight Superman and the GL corps, though.
    vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/greenlantern/images/7/7d/Cloverfield.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20081231051455
    vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/greenlantern/images/e/e8/Cyborg_Superman_Rebirth.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20100417003558

  22. DokuSaki February 4, 2015 at 4:10 pm -      #22

    “The fastest anyone has gone in DBZ is 1/5 the speed of light, IIRC. Power levels and Super-Saiyan increases are inconsistent at best, completely unreliable at worst.”

    Point me in the right direction to this conclusion.

    Also where did screw attack get thier multiplies for his ssjs? In the superman vs goku battle?

  23. Rookie February 4, 2015 at 4:11 pm -      #23

    Uriel using sword of light. Similar to Gorr’s all black necro sword, sword of light can transform into different things:
    img.bato.to/comics/2011/11/28/b/read4ed3ab93c9804/img000095.jpg

    Here badly injured Uriel damaged DS so hard with sword of light, that DS regeneration stopped for a time:
    img.bato.to/comics/2011/11/28/b/read4ed3aaec7b50b/img000016.jpg
    img.bato.to/comics/2011/11/28/b/read4ed3aaec7b50b/img000022.jpg

    img.bato.to/comics/2011/11/28/b/read4ed3aaec7b50b/img000045.jpg

  24. Friendlysociopath February 4, 2015 at 4:58 pm -      #24

    Also where did screw attack get thier multiplies for his ssjs? In the superman vs goku battle?

    In a rather polite tone I’d say out of their ass. But Superman vs Goku was one of the few fights they’ve done that I agree with their outcome so I’ll resist being snide.

    Probably from wiki’s and canon sources like the manga and other things like that.

    “The highest number ever officially read aloud from a scouter is Captain Ginyu’s reading of Goku’s power level, which after powering up, is 180,000. The highest power level ever mentioned in Dragon Ball Z is Frieza’s power level of 1,000,000, stated by Frieza himself after transforming into his Second form. The highest power level ever officially stated in the Daizenshuu guides is Super Saiyan Goku’s power level of 150,000,000 while battling Frieza on Namek. The overall highest power level officially stated is 2,500,000,000 of Super Gogeta according to V-Jump.”

  25. Jake_Uzumaki February 4, 2015 at 4:59 pm -      #25

    Power Levels are pretty useless though. We have no idea how they scale if there comes a point of diminishing returns in how much your physical stats increase compared to your power level. All we know for sure is energy output goes up but even then we don’t know to what degree. We don’t know how Super Saiyan power boosts and physical stats correlate. And in the long run the best outcome for trying to figure out what everyone is capable of ends with no one being able to star bust.

  26. DokuSaki February 4, 2015 at 5:33 pm -      #26

    “In a rather polite tone I’d say out of their ass. But Superman vs Goku was one of the few fights they’ve done that I agree with their outcome so I’ll resist being snide.”

    Actually I did some googling and they are stated upto ssj3 In two official sorces. This source www.kanzenshuu.com/battle-power/databook/
    and the second part of this dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Dragon_Ball:_Super_Exciting_Guide
    I cannot find any scans but every board and sorce I can find agree with the number until we hit ssj4 and god. Also it is for scaling “strength” or “battle power” which basicly how effect you are at battling. This includes speed, apperntly most scolars of dbz think ssjg is more atunned more to ultimate gohan tranceformation that an actual multiplier. As this is apparently a different type of ki. Also akia has also menstioned those multipliers when interview and speaking to the public. And before you wounder battle power and power levels are differnt example frieza power level in the billions (I know this coz I unlocked today a picture from raging blast 2 called “battle of the 15 billion power levels”). Battle power is in the teens of thousands.
    as for refference they are these.
    x50 ssj
    x2 / 100 ssj2
    x4 / 400. Ssj3

    so it is safe to use these as multipliers even if you disagree with them. Don’t have the math, hate the writting.

  27. DokuSaki February 4, 2015 at 5:48 pm -      #27

    Sorry for the double post but
    “We have no idea how they scale if there comes a point of diminishing returns”

    Actually if you are astute goku and king kai both mention diminition returns. Will find quotes when I actually have my pc (tomorrow) but paraphrase they say something along the lines of “it even harder to keep this form in the mortal world” and “it is going to drain your life even faster goku” this is because conservation of energy is a thing In our world. Other world not so much. And divine ki or god ki seems to not be effected by this.

  28. Warlock Lowk February 4, 2015 at 5:56 pm -      #28

    “I think Gorr could take Darkseid. Ultron could provide back up for a little bit.”

    Maybe physically but Darkseid’s eyes do more then erasing people.
    Like transmuting
    media.animevice.com/uploads/0/543/42066-cyborg3ik_large.jpg
    static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/5/59300/3105599-7978723290-HaCsA.jpg
    or bfring people through space and time.
    i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh187/DarkseidRes/YJ-055-19.jpg
    i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh187/DarkseidRes/YJ-055-22-1.jpg
    Which Gorr at least doesn’t seem to have a counter for. I don’t thing Ultron at that incarnation had time travel yet so that one might work on him.

  29. Jake_Uzumaki February 4, 2015 at 6:05 pm -      #29

    The games have a ton of noncanon stuff in them especially the raging blast games….

  30. Jake_Uzumaki February 4, 2015 at 6:07 pm -      #30

    @Lowk
    wouldn’t both of them just be able to live until the time of the match came up again?

  31. Warlock Lowk February 4, 2015 at 6:18 pm -      #31

    “wouldn’t both of them just be able to live until the time of the match came up again?”

    Think it still counts as BFR. Especially its really really far in the future. Plus he’s also shown he can transmute while he does.

  32. Rookie February 4, 2015 at 6:25 pm -      #32

    @Warlock Lowk

    “Which Gorr at least doesn’t seem to have a counter for.”

    Does Darkseid ever affected someone as powerful as Gorr with Omega Beams? Gorr was taking on Old King Thor without much problem after he got final power up+can create black berserkers who is somewhat threat even for modern Thor.

  33. Jake_Uzumaki February 4, 2015 at 6:30 pm -      #33

    Wouldn’t Ultron theoretically still be capable of building a time machine in the future to go back unless Darkseid just tosses them to the literal end of time? Possibly even then?

    Also didn’t this Ultron move an entire galaxy out of phase with the universe or something?

  34. DokuSaki February 4, 2015 at 6:38 pm -      #34

    V”The games have a ton of noncanon stuff in them especially the raging blast games….”
    Even if it is millions no where near 18000. And tbe non-cannon is very obvious.

  35. Warlock Lowk February 4, 2015 at 6:41 pm -      #35

    “Does Darkseid ever affected someone as powerful as Gorr with Omega Beams?”

    Unless Gorr has shown a resistance to either ability his power makes no difference.
    ===
    “Wouldn’t Ultron theoretically still be capable of building a time machine in the future to go back unless Darkseid just tosses them to the literal end of time?”

    I guess. Depends on where he sends him and if he leaves him normal.

  36. Jake_Uzumaki February 4, 2015 at 6:51 pm -      #36

    You realize power levels still mean nothing right….if we take them seriously it takes a power level of 36,000,000,000 to destroy a star and Bills power level is around 2,600,000,000 a roughly 33,400,000,000 gap between Bills and star busting….and definitively proving Cell was bluffing out his ass about destroying the solar system.

  37. DokuSaki February 4, 2015 at 7:29 pm -      #37

    The whole idea of powerlevels is stupid. However battle power is what dbz characters as measured outside of the story. And there is a huge difference. I think post buu goku base is about 100,000 And that sounds alot more reasonable. Power level is there to hype up characters.
    However bills has destroyed entire galaxies before and can casualy destroy planets. Measuring him with a number is near impossible maybe next movie but thats along time away.
    it is safe.to say he is solar system in terms of destruction. As for duribilty it hard to say…..

  38. CH1C4N0444 is allergic to bullets February 4, 2015 at 7:37 pm -      #38

    “However bills has destroyed entire galaxies before”

    No.
    =
    ” As for duribilty it hard to say…..”

    Probably less than his output considering almost each and every character has been wiped out by things that are less than their destructive capacity.

    Again, he flew through some planet like things(the dub, which can be sketchy considering how things have been dubbed in the passed, did call them worlds, so they were presumably planets).

  39. hellboy147 February 4, 2015 at 8:25 pm -      #39

    I feel for DBZ characters, they either get wanked too much or get downplayed.
    _
    Bills is easily a star buster www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqzjj9cVLhM 8:30 Goku is a planet buster himself at ssj3 at look what he did. As for his speed, he is easily the fastest in dbz universe.

  40. Jake_Uzumaki February 4, 2015 at 9:09 pm -      #40

    DBZ durability to physical attacks and piercing/cutting attacks has never been as high as actual damage output their all glass cannons….and thats not even taking into account Bills used a pressure point on Goku when he took him out of SS3

  41. Aelfinn February 4, 2015 at 9:10 pm -      #41

    “Point me in the right direction to this conclusion.”

    Gotenks flew around the planet 9 times in around 6 seconds, going by the anime. That comes to about 1/5 the speed of light, and that also requires I don’t assume Gotenks took 30 minutes to do it and the anime sped it up. If you can direct me to a character actually going faster, I’d be surprised.
    =
    “so it is safe to use these as multipliers even if you disagree with them. Don’t have the math, hate the writting.”

    Firstly, that’s a wiki. Secondly, what does that mean? What does “2x stronger” actually mean? 2x better? Are they 8 times as physically strong, but half as fast? Are they 3 times as fast, five times as durable, 2 times as strong, and can output 6x more energy? We have NO means to measure it by, so we can’t form any conclusions.
    =
    “Goku is a planet buster himself at ssj3 at look what he did.”

    With his ki attacks, yeah, but not physically. That planet was literally the size of a building.

  42. DokuSaki February 4, 2015 at 9:48 pm -      #42

    “firstly, that’s a wiki. Secondly, what does that mean? What does “2x stronger” actually mean? 2x better? Are they 8 times as physically strong, but half as fast? Are they 3 times as fast, five times as durable, 2 times as strong, and can output 6x more energy? We have NO means to measure it by, so we can’t form any conclusions.”

    I dont see how your point is relivent and second I am reffering the book the wiki link is reffering to Because I can not find scans and if I did you could most likily read them. So I posted a wiki link to proove it is a official sorce and cannon.
    As the number thing the first link I sent you explains how the number system works and that scales up to give an idea in terms of what can be done at level. And if you understand the multpliers it is qualityte simple. If goku can rip though steal in base form. Then in super saiyan he can rip through 50 times that. And if goku can move half the speed of sound then he can do 50 times that. In other words his combat protensional is increased by the multiplier all round. This told you when vegeta points out to trunk why acended sayians would never beat cell. It talks about becoming too slow and too bulky and too slow it is not the right way to go About becoming ssj2 And that to go beyound a super sayain you need more than just strength and you will need speed as well. And as you said I beleive gotenk did that world fwat in base form. Now times that my 400 and that is what he does in ssj3.

  43. Jake_Uzumaki February 4, 2015 at 10:43 pm -      #43

    Yes it scales up…but we have no idea by what degree, we don’t know if physical stats scale the same way Ki does, we don’t know if physical stats continue to scale linearly there could be a sharp decline in physical stat increase, SS3 being a particular example where Ki ouput increases to the point it can only be sustained for a short time but the physical stats don’t seem to increase that drastically compared to SS2 or SS1

    SSgod also doesn’t seem to magnify the physical stats of Goku that far compared to Ki when compared to previous forms outside of being able to keep up with Bills in speed there’s no noticeable boost in strength speed or durability. I just rewatched the Bills vs SSg Goku fight and…honestly the physical blows they were tossing out, while impressive, were nothing compared to what the other competitors in this match have dished out and taken.

  44. Xornell February 4, 2015 at 10:52 pm -      #44

    Cyborg Supes has retardedly broken regen. He took a galaxy busting blast and lived. He could really just wear Team 2 down.

    Darkseid doesn’t actually have many feats either way. He’s mostly powerscaling through beating powerful heroes (one-shotting Superman, Orion, ect.). But Pre-52 Darkseid is connected to the Source Wall and the universe won’t let him die, giving Team 1 another nigh-immortal fighter.

    “In other words his combat protensional is increased by the multiplier all round. ”

    Says who?


    For DBZ we’ve also seen that a very small difference in power level is equal to an absolute rapestomp. Raditz was like, 100 PL above Goku and Piccolo together and he was shitting on them nonstop. I find it odd that arguments like “Buu must be way stronger than Goku cuz’ he kicked his ass” exist when 100 PL makes that much difference.

  45. hellboy147 February 4, 2015 at 11:16 pm -      #45

    “With his ki attacks, yeah, but not physically. That planet was literally the size of a building.”
    _

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=bH_CcJ-uBWI

    i doubt because his transformation alone shook the entire world and started tidal waves.
    _
    “and thats not even taking into account Bills used a pressure point on Goku when he took him out of SS3”
    _
    www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYexCzpjY8I 3.11 he is a lot stronger than you are thinking.
    9.05 same video.
    funny ssj2 Vegeta put up a better fight than ssj3 Goku

  46. Xornell February 4, 2015 at 11:38 pm -      #46

    ” his transformation alone ”

    > Implying this transformation wasn’t unique.
    > Implying his attacks contained more power than this when they had 0 of the effects listed on the world.
    > Implying.

    “3.11 he is a lot stronger than you are thinking.”

    What did he do that was that impressive in any of these?

  47. CH1C4N0444 is allergic to bullets February 5, 2015 at 12:46 am -      #47

    “Also didn’t this Ultron move an entire galaxy out of phase with the universe or something?”

    static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/12/121316/2792062-ultron_galaxy.jpg

    I believe that is it, seems like it was specifically Kree Space(so I’m assuming at least solar system sized)was phased out of the galaxy. Have any of Team 1 ever been phased out of a galaxy?
    =
    ” But Pre-52 Darkseid is connected to the Source Wall and the universe won’t let him die, giving Team 1 another nigh-immortal fighter.”

    Wouldn’t something like that be taken away for the sake of the match?
    =
    “i doubt because his transformation alone shook the entire world and started tidal waves.”

    We don’t really know how much of that was being boosted to his physical abilities. As far as we know, all that was just a ki boost that was shaking the planet.
    =
    I really wish Marvel did a prequel to the God Butcher and God Bomb arcs… It’d be nice to see how he took out the Elder God and Skyfathers and etc. I’d imagine that black hole wrestling god would be interesting to see him fight.

  48. Ragnorke February 5, 2015 at 1:15 am -      #48

    ““Also didn’t this Ultron move an entire galaxy out of phase with the universe or something?”

    Is there any on-panel information on how this was done?
    Seems like Ultron would have used prep & some sort of gadgets or machines to accomplish it.

    “Wouldn’t something like that be taken away for the sake of the match?”

    Team 2 needs a metaphysical way to kill Darkseid.
    Like Soul Fuckery.

    “I really wish Marvel did a prequel to the God Butcher and God Bomb arcs…”

    Yea, i quite liked Gorr.

  49. Rookie February 5, 2015 at 1:23 am -      #49

    @Ragnorke

    “Is there any on-panel information on how this was done?”

    It was Phalanx marvel.wikia.com/Phalanx_(Race) who did this, Ultron took over them and lead them later.

  50. CH1C4N0444 is allergic to bullets February 5, 2015 at 1:31 am -      #50

    @Rag Yea, never mind about that feat. Like Rookie said it was the Phalanx and they needed a bunch of Kree Sentries to make the spire that sent out the energy wave that did it.

  51. Jolttra February 5, 2015 at 1:57 am -      #51

    @Xornell: “For DBZ we’ve also seen that a very small difference in power level is equal to an absolute rapestomp. Raditz was like, 100 PL above Goku and Piccolo together and he was shitting on them nonstop. I find it odd that arguments like “Buu must be way stronger than Goku cuz’ he kicked his ass” exist when 100 PL makes that much difference.”

    There is a very big detail you are missing here. When Goku and Piccolo fought Raditz, all their power levels were in the hundreds. When the fought Buu, their power levels were well into the thousands. So 100 pl doesn’t make as much of a difference. Think of it like this. Each PL point counts as a person in a battle. If one side has 200 and the other has 300, it will make a significant difference. But if one side has 10,000 and the other 10,100, the advantage means very little. And if Buu was stronger by only 100 pl, then he would not have been crushing themso easily. He would need an advantage at least in.the thousands.

  52. DokuSaki February 5, 2015 at 7:18 am -      #52

    As i said before power levels dont matyer. At all that is the hole poi t if them. What we care about is a different number thier “battle power”. Also In “Fusion reborn” movie his ssj3 tranceformation shook th entire other world.

    As for not knowing how multipliers work there is only one thing to say to that because math and official sorce.

  53. Jake_Uzumaki February 5, 2015 at 10:47 am -      #53

    1. Fusion Reborn isn’t canon
    2. The Multipliers only work on Power, Ki Power, the same multipliers apply to no other stats we don’t know how the other stats are affected and can’t calculate it based on anything other than showings.

  54. CH1C4N0444 is allergic to bullets February 5, 2015 at 1:19 pm -      #54

    “Also Ultron survived explosion of the star:”

    Technically, yes, he survived, but he needed outside help to survive.

    “I was forced o re-coalesce my consciousness via the Phalanx Gestalt and download it into a fresh body. I wish to vent my rage on something” -Ultron after that star went supernova. If it wasn’t for the Phalanx he would’ve been destroyed right then and there.
    =
    “Team 2 needs a metaphysical way to kill Darkseid.
    Like Soul Fuckery.”

    Don’t think that anyone on team 2 can do that. I’d imagine Rule 7 would give them something to allow them to kill him though.
    =
    “2. The Multipliers only work on Power, Ki Power,”

    To be honest, we don’t even know if it’s only ki power. We know absolutely nothing about Power Levels or Kili. For all we know, speed could be the biggest thing that gets boosted or durability or strength or agility or ki or…you get the point.
    =
    I think Aelfinn and Jake pretty much got it when he said this:

    “Secondly, what does that mean? What does “2x stronger” actually mean? 2x better? Are they 8 times as physically strong, but half as fast? Are they 3 times as fast, five times as durable, 2 times as strong, and can output 6x more energy? We have NO means to measure it by, so we can’t form any conclusions.”

    and:

    “Yes it scales up…but we have no idea by what degree, we don’t know if physical stats scale the same way Ki does, we don’t know if physical stats continue to scale linearly there could be a sharp decline in physical stat increase, SS3 being a particular example where Ki ouput increases to the point it can only be sustained for a short time but the physical stats don’t seem to increase that drastically compared to SS2 or SS1″

    To add to this, we don’t know if each and every increase in powerlevel increases the same stats the same way across the board.

    Example, maybe at 10PL someone is 2x as strong, 4x as fast, 3x as durable, and has the same amount of ki output as someone with 9PL, but what about 11PL? Do those stats increase the same way as they did for someone who has a 10PL? What if an 11PL increases someone speed by 4, and his durabilyt by 9, and his strength by 2? And there’s the fact we have no idea what the prerequisites are to increase a power level. There’s just too much we have no idea about involving powerlevels.

  55. hellboy147 February 5, 2015 at 3:33 pm -      #55

    “what did he do that was impressive”

    Physical attack beyond any saiyan’s reach, buu is one tough mofo himself. Bills sends him this far without even trying.

    “implying this transformation wasn’t unique”

    Tidal waves, wind, building collapse, earthquake, change in atmosphere = planet busting energy without using ki ( that was while he was transforming)

  56. Warlock Lowk February 5, 2015 at 3:59 pm -      #56

    “Tidal waves, wind, building collapse, earthquake, change in atmosphere = planet busting energy without using ki ( that was while he was transforming)”

    Did you not hear the various statements that he’s putting out more energy repeatedly reminding us that he’s putting out more energy? You had to have seen the bright yellow ball of energy. Where are you getting it was without it?
    Also, they totally just showed Goku murdering a few people. Those glass chunks would’ve shredded those people. Take note, don’t show people under building as huge glass shards fall.

  57. Friendlysociopath February 5, 2015 at 4:11 pm -      #57

    Also, they totally just showed Goku murdering a few people.

    Maybe we can get it bumped down to unintentional manslaughter. Murder would imply he was in some way trying to make that happen.
    Plus let’s be honest, who in the world would be able to enforce that law to him?

    I think the creators even said at some point they were just making the power levels up to sound cool.

    Still, the idea that everyone in DBZ is (eventually) supposed to be so much stronger than Frieza but isn’t considered planet-busting worthy kind of sits wrong with me.

    All of that said, I’m not seeing a whole lot of reasons why Team 1 doesn’t stomp.

  58. Warlock Lowk February 5, 2015 at 4:41 pm -      #58

    “Maybe we can get it bumped down to unintentional manslaughter. Murder would imply he was in some way trying to make that happen.”

    He’d need a lawyer with some super sayian level cojones to argue for him.
    See stuff like that is what I’d like to see. Someone needs to do a harvey birdman for anime.

  59. Xornell February 5, 2015 at 4:52 pm -      #59

    “Physical attack beyond any saiyan’s reach, buu is one tough mofo himself. Bills sends him this far without even trying.”

    High-tier characters raped by chopsticks and blows that do not damage the planet they are on. GG.

    “Tidal waves, wind, building collapse, earthquake, change in atmosphere = planet busting energy without using ki ( that was while he was transforming)”

    But no. Because Goku uses ki attacks after this as well as blows and the planet is not busted. The Earth feeling him transform means just that… The Earth felt him transform. Said transformation must have released more energy than his attacks could, or why wouldn’t he direct that energy at buu?

  60. captain napalm February 5, 2015 at 6:26 pm -      #60

    Power levels and multipliers given in the Daizenshuu/Super-Exciting Guide are as non-canon as it gets.

    “High-tier characters raped by chopsticks and blows that do not damage the planet they are on. GG.”

    Pretty sure that’s because they’re being used by a guy with planet-busting strength (and presumably coated in his ki or whatever). Because if they’re not planet-busting physically, how the hell did Goku tank a Kamemameha from Kid Buu just by crossing his arms? And how did Frieza survive a planetary explosion while cut in half and unconscious, and then how did Trunks slice him to pieces?

    As for DBZ’s speed, they definitely don’t get to FTL or anything during the main series, but Bills and Whis had a pretty hella fast flight across the universe in BoG.

    (EDIT: And to respond to a much earlier point, Raditz was not barely stronger than Goku and Piccolo. They were like 400 each, and he was well over a thousand, like three or four times as powerful. Hence the massive speed/strength/etc. gap made sense.)

  61. Jake_Uzumaki February 5, 2015 at 10:23 pm -      #61

    The chopsticks hit pressure points if I remember correctly.

  62. Aelfinn February 6, 2015 at 12:29 am -      #62

    “Because if they’re not planet-busting physically, how the hell did Goku tank a Kamemameha from Kid Buu just by crossing his arms?”

    When did this happen?

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNuXZR-pGzg
    At around 20:00, Goku gets beat up by stuff much less than planet-busting. In fact, throughout the fight you see him get very hurt by things much less than planet-busting.

  63. CH1C4N0444 is allergic to bullets February 6, 2015 at 1:41 am -      #63

    ““Because if they’re not planet-busting physically, how the hell did Goku tank a Kamemameha from Kid Buu just by crossing his arms?”

    Probably cus it wasn’t planet busting? Each and every time an attack is going to be planet busting they announce it(the ONLY exception being when Bills flew through those planet looking things in BotG), and each and ever time they do so the intended target gets obliterated(Frieza surviving the explosion of Namek being the only exception and the thing I mentioned about Bills)and everyone shits their pants at the thought of the attack being that powerful.

    Frieza is going to blow up the planet? Everyone runs like hell. Frieza survives.

    Goku has a Kamehameha that can destroy the Earth. Cell gets blasted to smithereens, regen saves him.

    Cell wants to be a suicide bomber, everyone shits their pants, Goku ITs to King Kai’s planet, King Kai and Goku dies, Cell gets saved by regen again.

    Cell makes a bullshit claim of being capable of destroying the solar system, I think it’s safe to assume it at least was planet busting, Gohan counters and Cell dies.

    Kid Buu wants to blow up the planet, everyone on Earth dies except Kid Buu(due to regen), Goku, Vegeta, Mr. Satan, Dende, and I think Mr. Satan’s dog, but only because they had their asses saved by Old Kai and Kibito Kai.

    Bills is going to blow up Earth, everyone freaks out and is prepared to die. Turns out, Bills is too tired and can’t actually blow it up.

  64. Rookie February 6, 2015 at 2:07 am -      #64

    Uriel’s Augoeides covered in dark matter:
    img.bato.to/comics/2011/11/28/b/read4ed3aaec7b50b/img000042.jpg
    img.bato.to/comics/2011/11/28/b/read4ed3aaec7b50b/img000043.jpg
    img.bato.to/comics/2011/11/28/b/read4ed3aaec7b50b/img000046.jpg

    Michael about Uriel’s power:
    img.bato.to/comics/2011/11/28/b/read4ed3aaec7b50b/img000057.jpg

  65. captain napalm February 6, 2015 at 5:16 am -      #65

    “When did this happen?”

    In the manga.

    “At around 20:00, Goku gets beat up by stuff much less than planet-busting. In fact, throughout the fight you see him get very hurt by things much less than planet-busting.”

    Or because the attacks were planet-busting in strength but didn’t hit a large enough area to take out the whole planet? I know this is an argument that is often disputed, but let me get to the next reply to try and justify this claim:

    “Probably cus it wasn’t planet busting? Each and every time an attack is going to be planet busting they announce it(the ONLY exception being when Bills flew through those planet looking things in BotG), and each and ever time they do so the intended target gets obliterated(Frieza surviving the explosion of Namek being the only exception and the thing I mentioned about Bills)and everyone shits their pants at the thought of the attack being that powerful.”

    There are actually plenty of instances of characters surviving planet-busters.

    1. Vegeta’s planet-buster beam in the saiyan saga. Goku counters it with his own, even stronger beam. Vegeta is hit by it and takes its full force for several seconds, and is weakened but not seriously injured.

    2. Vegeta preps a massive blast to fire at Frieza. Piccolo says “are you going to take the planet with him?!” Frieza deflects it with a kick.

    3. Frieza is beaten to a pulp, cut in half, gets a bit of energy but immediately expends it all, and then gets hit with a massive beam attack. THEN he survives a planet exploding.

    4. Cell fires a Kamehameha at the ground (this is well before the final beam clash everyone remembers). Everyone’s like, “Oh no! The planet will be destroyed if that hits!” At the last second Gohan instantly counters with an even more powerful blast of his own. This wounds Cell but doesn’t kill him (and doesn’t reduce him to a single cell or anything either).

    5. In Battle of Gods, Bills readies his most powerful blast yet and fires it down at the Earth, everyone is like, “This is the end!” Goku tries to block it, is about to fail, goes Super Saiyan God for an instant and stops it (without firing a blast of his own or anything).

  66. Ragnorke February 6, 2015 at 6:25 am -      #66

    “Or because the attacks were planet-busting in strength but didn’t hit a large enough area to take out the whole planet? ”

    This is actually a perfectly acceptable argument, IF you can prove it. Assumptions don’t quite cut it.

    “. Vegeta’s planet-buster beam in the saiyan saga. Goku counters it with his own, even stronger beam. Vegeta is hit by it and takes its full force for several seconds, and is weakened but not seriously injured.”

    The counter argument would be that the beam was no longer at “full force” by the time it reached Vegeta.

    “Vegeta preps a massive blast to fire at Frieza. Piccolo says “are you going to take the planet with him?!” Frieza deflects it with a kick.”

    A sword can be used to deflect a bullet, but if a sword is shot straight on it would still be destroyed.
    Anyhow, can you post this?

    ” Piccolo says “are you going to take the planet with him?!”

    This is a claim. Not a fact.

    “THEN he survives a planet exploding.”

    Surviving a planet exploding doesn’t give you planet busting durability, unless you were at the source/center of the explosion.

    “. Everyone’s like, “Oh no! The planet will be destroyed if that hits!””

    This is also a claim. Not a fact.

    “At the last second Gohan instantly counters with an even more powerful blast of his own. This wounds Cell but doesn’t kill him”

    Best case scenario, this means Cell has planet busting durability. No one else.

    “Gohan instantly counters with an even more powerful blast of his own. This wounds Cell but doesn’t kill him”

    The blast could no longer have been at optimal power by the time it reached Cell, considering it had to counter Cells own blast first too.

    ” In Battle of Gods, Bills readies his most powerful blast yet and fires it down at the Earth. “This is the end!””

    This is a claim. Not a fact.

    ” Goku tries to block it, is about to fail, goes Super Saiyan God for an instant and stops it (without firing a blast of his own or anything).”

    Assuming the blast actually was planet busting, this can be acceptable.
    However there’s no proof of that.

  67. captain napalm February 6, 2015 at 7:31 am -      #67

    “The counter argument would be that the beam was no longer at “full force” by the time it reached Vegeta.”

    I suppose I can’t prove it was. Although Goku was still firing it–he was still providing the same flow of energy; if he’d let it fly free, like the Spirit Bomb, or Yusuke’s Spirit Gun, then yeah, it’d lose power after deflecting something else.

    “A sword can be used to deflect a bullet, but if a sword is shot straight on it would still be destroyed.
    Anyhow, can you post this?”

    So how the hell is any kind of planet-level physical strength going to be established? His kick had more force than a planet-busting attack. And I can indeed post this, here we go:

    mangafox.me/manga/dragon_ball/v21/c306/2.html

    mangafox.me/manga/dragon_ball/v21/c306/3.html

    mangafox.me/manga/dragon_ball/v21/c306/4.html

    mangafox.me/manga/dragon_ball/v21/c306/5.html

    “This is a claim. Not a fact.”

    Piccolo is highly intelligent, can accurately sense ki, and has no reason to lie.

    “Surviving a planet exploding doesn’t give you planet busting durability, unless you were at the source/center of the explosion.”

    Fair enough I suppose. Though there was also the fact that Frieza was at 50% when he threw the Namek-destroying attack, then shortly afterwards (in the manga, anyway) hit Goku with an attack at almost 2/3 power; Goku recovered pretty quickly.

    “This is also a claim. Not a fact.”

    They can all sense energy and have no reason to lie.

    “Best case scenario, this means Cell has planet busting durability. No one else.”

    And by extension, everyone tougher than him.

    “The blast could no longer have been at optimal power by the time it reached Cell, considering it had to counter Cells own blast first too.”

    Again, Gohan was still firing and pushing power into it.

    “This is a claim. Not a fact.”

    It was Bills’ most powerful attack in the movie, and his *job* is destroying planets. It would be really weird if it wasn’t planet-busting.

  68. Ragnorke February 6, 2015 at 8:38 am -      #68

    “So how the hell is any kind of planet-level physical strength going to be established?”

    By people that actually bust planets on panel. Rather than people claiming their attacks can bust planets.

    “His kick had more force than a planet-busting attack.”

    But… That’s like saying a sword swing has more force than a bullet.
    It isn’t true.
    Nonetheless, it’s a good feat.

    “Piccolo is highly intelligent, can accurately sense ki, and has no reason to lie.”

    It doesn’t really need to be a lie. Could have just been Hyperbole.
    Similar to how Sentry (from Marvel), and pretty much everyone else in Marvel, claims Sentry has the power of a million exploding Stars.
    It’s just an exaggeration for: Holy fuck, that’s powerful.

    “And by extension, everyone tougher than him.”

    Eh, beating someone in a fight doesn’t accurately translate to having higher durability than them.
    It would mean you have a higher power output than they can handle, definitely, but it doesn’t always mean you’re as durable.

    “It was Bills’ most powerful attack in the movie, and his *job* is destroying planets. It would be really weird if it wasn’t planet-busting.”

    But he never really wanted to destroy Earth though…. Right…?

  69. Rookie February 6, 2015 at 9:27 am -      #69

    @Ragnorke

    Can you help me with something?
    If a creature takes this much damage (explanation about how much was force behind the blow):

    img.bato.to/comics/2015/02/05/t/read54d38fcb6a0d1/img000001.png
    i1329.photobucket.com/albums/w541/Listor3/Bambina%201_zpsrvtmtrhd.png
    img.bato.to/comics/2015/02/05/t/read54d38fcb6a0d1/img000003.png
    img.bato.to/comics/2015/02/05/t/read54d38fcb6a0d1/img000005.png

    (This continent is slightly bigger than our Earth) and if this creature allowed others to hit him, just because he currently having fun and not in danger… what kind of durability he have? Two continents, planet level or above or below?

  70. captain napalm February 6, 2015 at 9:51 am -      #70

    “By people that actually bust planets on panel. Rather than people claiming their attacks can bust planets.”

    And people have busted planets on panel. The fact that they have only done so with ki blasts is a problem, but then similar, or even vastly more powerful, ki blasts have been repeatedly tanked by these characters. Here’s another example: Vegeta’s planet-buster that Goku deflected. That was at Kaioken x4 (i.e. his power was multiplied by four). In the Frieza saga, he had undergone crazy training and two other separate power-ups, and then used the Kaioken x20 to launch a Kamehameha, which Frieza blocked one-handed.

    mangafox.me/manga/dragon_ball/v21/c313/9.html

    mangafox.me/manga/dragon_ball/v21/c313/10.html

    mangafox.me/manga/dragon_ball/v21/c313/11.html

    mangafox.me/manga/dragon_ball/v21/c313/12.html

    mangafox.me/manga/dragon_ball/v21/c313/13.html

    mangafox.me/manga/dragon_ball/v21/c313/14.html

    mangafox.me/manga/dragon_ball/v21/c313/15.html

    Now there is no way in hell that a blast fired by 20X Frieza saga Goku was anything but vastly stronger than the same technique fired by X4 saiyan saga Goku. Hence, planet-buster. And Frieza withstood it, with considerable effort but nevertheless with his physical strength alone, and one-handed at that.

    “But… That’s like saying a sword swing has more force than a bullet.
    It isn’t true.
    Nonetheless, it’s a good feat.”

    Pretty sure that physics says that when two objects collide, the one with less force gets pushed back…wait, no, it’s force times mass…and a bullet’s a lot smaller than a sword…so I guess. And it’s not like we know the weight of a ki blast, or if it even has weight…ah, I dunno.

    “It doesn’t really need to be a lie. Could have just been Hyperbole.
    Similar to how Sentry (from Marvel), and pretty much everyone else in Marvel, claims Sentry has the power of a million exploding Stars.
    It’s just an exaggeration for: Holy fuck, that’s powerful.”

    Eh, personally I think it’s fairly different; that’s kind of a boast (sort of on someone else’s behalf in many cases), whereas Piccolo was giving an assessment of the danger of what Vegeta was doing. But that’s more of a subjective thing, so I don’t think I can really use that.

    “Eh, beating someone in a fight doesn’t accurately translate to having higher durability than them.
    It would mean you have a higher power output than they can handle, definitely, but it doesn’t always mean you’re as durable.”

    In general, yes. But while–as pointed out above–we don’t know at all HOW speed, strength, durability and all that scale with DBZ power level, we know for sure that they DO scale positively in some way. Higher power level equals greater durability, even if we don’t know what the mathematical relationship is (if it’s linear or not, or whatever).

    “But he never really wanted to destroy Earth though…. Right…?”

    He did initially; it was Goku stopping that attack that finally impressed him enough to stop (their conversation got a lot more casual and less confrontational afterwards).

  71. Aelfinn February 6, 2015 at 12:44 pm -      #71

    “1. Vegeta’s planet-buster beam in the saiyan saga. Goku counters it with his own, even stronger beam. Vegeta is hit by it and takes its full force for several seconds, and is weakened but not seriously injured.”

    Vegeta quickly rolls off of it. He takes nowhere near the entire amount of force.
    =
    “2. Vegeta preps a massive blast to fire at Frieza. Piccolo says “are you going to take the planet with him?!” Frieza deflects it with a kick”

    Ki attacks in DBZ have both kinetic energy and explosive energy elements to them. It is very common for characters to deflect ki attacks so they explode somewhere else. That doesn’t mean they took the full energy of the attack, just the kinetic energy portion of it.
    =
    “3. Frieza is beaten to a pulp, cut in half, gets a bit of energy but immediately expends it all, and then gets hit with a massive beam attack. THEN he survives a planet exploding.”

    If I remember my calcs from another thread correctly (admittedly, they are shaky calcs), then Freeza would have survived energy on the order of megatons-to-gigatons, which is lower than Goku’s durability.
    =
    “4. Cell fires a Kamehameha at the ground (this is well before the final beam clash everyone remembers). Everyone’s like, “Oh no! The planet will be destroyed if that hits!” At the last second Gohan instantly counters with an even more powerful blast of his own. This wounds Cell but doesn’t kill him (and doesn’t reduce him to a single cell or anything either).”

    Cell’s top half was also completely atomized when Goku hit him with an undefended Kamehameha, so Ragnorke’s explanation is likely the case.
    =
    “5. In Battle of Gods, Bills readies his most powerful blast yet and fires it down at the Earth, everyone is like, “This is the end!” Goku tries to block it, is about to fail, goes Super Saiyan God for an instant and stops it (without firing a blast of his own or anything).”

    Bills said he went about 70% in that fight, SSJG has the ability to absorb energy, and how do we know that Goku didn’t use some kind of energy blast of his own to dispell the attack? That’s what my research is telling me, at least.
    =
    “In the manga.”

    Scans? Also, it doesn’t have to be a planet-busting attack.

  72. captain napalm February 6, 2015 at 1:02 pm -      #72

    “Vegeta quickly rolls off of it. He takes nowhere near the entire amount of force.”

    Fair point, I suppose we never learn how long such a beam would take to destroy a planet.

    “Ki attacks in DBZ have both kinetic energy and explosive energy elements to them. It is very common for characters to deflect ki attacks so they explode somewhere else. That doesn’t mean they took the full energy of the attack, just the kinetic energy portion of it.”

    One would think he’s also having to do *something* to stop it just exploding when he kicks it.

    “Cell’s top half was also completely atomized when Goku hit him with an undefended Kamehameha, so Ragnorke’s explanation is likely the case.”

    Cell wasn’t fully powered-up when fighting Goku, to be fair.

    “Bills said he went about 70% in that fight, SSJG has the ability to absorb energy, and how do we know that Goku didn’t use some kind of energy blast of his own to dispell the attack? That’s what my research is telling me, at least.”

    Given how much vastly more powerful he is than confirmed planet-busters like Frieza even at 70% or less (presumably he was using even less when taking out Piccolo, 18 and other such people stronger than Frieza), even at 70% his strongest blast should be easily planet-level. And I dunno, I always interpreted that scene as ‘due to SSJG, Goku gets strong enough to not die’.

    And what’s this about SSJG having the ability to absorb energy? I’ve heard fans bandy it about, but it’s nowhere in the movie.

    “Scans? Also, it doesn’t have to be a planet-busting attack.”

    If it’s not a planet busting blast, doesn’t that make it weaker than saiyan saga Vegeta’s beam? That’s kind of insane. Anyway, scan:

    …Mangafox doesn’t seem to be working for me, but I shall try again in a few hours.

  73. CH1C4N0444 is allergic to bullets February 6, 2015 at 3:37 pm -      #73

    “1. Vegeta’s planet-buster beam in the saiyan saga. Goku counters it with his own, even stronger beam. Vegeta is hit by it and takes its full force for several seconds, and is weakened but not seriously injured.”

    That’s assuming the beam was planet busting in the first place and wasn’t just a claim.
    =
    “2. Vegeta preps a massive blast to fire at Frieza. Piccolo says “are you going to take the planet with him?!” Frieza deflects it with a kick.”

    Seeing how he deflected it as opposed to just sat there and tanked it tells me he probably wasn’t capable of surviving that kind of power, plus there’s the fact it could’ve just as easily been a claim since we’ve never seen anyone weaker than Frieza planet bust.
    =
    “4. Cell fires a Kamehameha at the ground (this is well before the final beam clash everyone remembers). Everyone’s like, “Oh no! The planet will be destroyed if that hits!” At the last second Gohan instantly counters with an even more powerful blast of his own. This wounds Cell but doesn’t kill him (and doesn’t reduce him to a single cell or anything either).”

    No, but it definitely reduces him significantly.

    www.mangapanda.com/105-3060-15/dragon-ball/chapter-411.html

    It’s clear he would’ve died from that attack if he didn’t have the crazy regen he has. There’s also the fact it had to get through another Kamehameha to get to Cell, so who knows how much power it lost on it’s way up. We’ve also seen Cell get obliterated from an attack like that without there being a kamehameha to counter.

    www.mangapanda.com/105-3051-8/dragon-ball/chapter-402.html

    That was what happened to him without having a Kamehameha to be countered.
    =
    “5. In Battle of Gods, Bills readies his most powerful blast yet and fires it down at the Earth, everyone is like, “This is the end!” Goku tries to block it, is about to fail, goes Super Saiyan God for an instant and stops it (without firing a blast of his own or anything).”

    Could’ve been because he absorbed it or you could be right he’s just that durable. I’d be willing to agree to that. There’s also the fact that at no point did the ki blast explode, and he was just dealing with the physical portion of ki blast(as it’s been mentioned ki blast have both energy and physical portions to it).
    =
    “So how the hell is any kind of planet-level physical strength going to be established?”

    By doing stuff like this:

    static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/9/98379/2306653-stormbreaker_03__08_.jpg

    We see guys in comics like BRB constantly blow up planets and the like, and they just do it. They never mention that they’re attack is powerful enough to blow up the planet, or that he’s going to do it, they just do. It’s something we’ve never seen happen in DB.

    Considering the strongest punch we’ve seen so far from DBZ was midKT-lowMT I’d say we won’t be seeing it any time soon from any of the nongod characters in DBZ(i.e. I still think Bills can do it from that one scene).
    =
    “Piccolo is highly intelligent, can accurately sense ki, and has no reason to lie.”

    So can Goku and everyone else in the main cast, but he still ends up questioning Cell if his attack was actually powerful enough to blow up the Earth, Cell says he doesn’t know nor does he care.
    =
    ” hit Goku with an attack at almost 2/3 power; Goku recovered pretty quickly.”

    There’s nothing to say that attack was capable of doing so.
    =
    “And by extension, everyone tougher than him.”

    You’d have to prove that they’re tougher than him, powerscaling isn’t proof enough and neither are claims with no proof. The fact remains that A beats B in a fight is still about the worst way to determine someone’s physical stats.
    =
    “Rather than people claiming their attacks can bust planets.”

    To be fair, at that point in the series, anyone who was First Form Frieza+could probably do it(which is basically any none human character in the series that is introduced in the DBZ portion of the manga). Not that powerscaling or claims are reliable, but at least by that point the claims aren’t completely unsupported(as in it’s shown to be a possibility in that world).
    =
    “And what’s this about SSJG having the ability to absorb energy?”

    Bills mentions something about Goku absorbing “that world into his own,” during the fight.
    =
    “If it’s not a planet busting blast, doesn’t that make it weaker than saiyan saga Vegeta’s beam?”

    That’s assuming Vegeta’s beam was planet busting in the first place, which at that point in the series wasn’t something that they were proven capable of doing.

  74. captain napalm February 6, 2015 at 6:48 pm -      #74

    “That’s assuming the beam was planet busting in the first place and wasn’t just a claim.”

    The whole reason Goku didn’t just dodge was because if it hit the planet, it would’ve destroyed it.

    “Seeing how he deflected it as opposed to just sat there and tanked it tells me he probably wasn’t capable of surviving that kind of power, plus there’s the fact it could’ve just as easily been a claim since we’ve never seen anyone weaker than Frieza planet bust.”

    He still deflected it with physical strength only.

    “No, but it definitely reduces him significantly.”

    “It’s clear he would’ve died from that attack if he didn’t have the crazy regen he has. There’s also the fact it had to get through another Kamehameha to get to Cell, so who knows how much power it lost on it’s way up. We’ve also seen Cell get obliterated from an attack like that without there being a kamehameha to counter.”

    Again, Gohan was still putting the same power input into the continuously-firing Kamehameha, it wouldn’t have weakened; and again, Cell wasn’t at full power when Goku got him. As for being pretty wounded, I don’t know if he’d have died without regen; he’d have been out of the fight for sure, though.

    “Could’ve been because he absorbed it or you could be right he’s just that durable. I’d be willing to agree to that. There’s also the fact that at no point did the ki blast explode, and he was just dealing with the physical portion of ki blast(as it’s been mentioned ki blast have both energy and physical portions to it).”

    I’m willing to accept that for things like Frieza deflecting Vegeta’s attack before it detonated, but Goku undeniably stopped everything Bills’ blast had.

    “We see guys in comics like BRB constantly blow up planets and the like, and they just do it. They never mention that they’re attack is powerful enough to blow up the planet, or that he’s going to do it, they just do. It’s something we’ve never seen happen in DB.”

    I’m aware (I mean, plenty of instances of this in comics fights, a more on-topic example being the Thors vs. Gorr, that got pretty crazy); I was referring to DB specifically.

    “So can Goku and everyone else in the main cast, but he still ends up questioning Cell if his attack was actually powerful enough to blow up the Earth, Cell says he doesn’t know nor does he care.”

    Not to my memory.

    Goku, when Cell’s about to fire–and at Goku, mind, not even at the Earth: “Don’t fire a Kamehameha when you’re revved that high!” And then after making him fire it upwards into the air instead and dodging: “Would you have shot that Kamehameha and destroyed the Earth if I hadn’t jumped?” There was a question, but it wasn’t about the planet-busting potential of the attack; that was a given.

    Then later on, Cell is now at full power, so presumably the Kamehameha he shoots at Gohan (saying “Dodge and the Earth will be pulp!”) is even stronger. So definitely planet-busting.

    (If you want scans for any of the above tell me, I’m currently just going off my printed volume of the manga.)

    “There’s nothing to say that attack was capable of doing so.”

    So his 2/3 power is weaker than his 50% power? What?

    “You’d have to prove that they’re tougher than him, powerscaling isn’t proof enough and neither are claims with no proof. The fact remains that A beats B in a fight is still about the worst way to determine someone’s physical stats.”

    Again, in DBZ specifically, durability, among other stats like that, scales with power level. To what extent is unknown, but it does.

    “Bills mentions something about Goku absorbing “that world into his own,” during the fight.”

    He’s referring to how Goku made the ‘borrowed’ SSJG power from his friends into his own power, so he stayed at god-level in his base and SSJ forms. Nothing to do with some general ability to absorb energy attacks or something.

    “That’s assuming Vegeta’s beam was planet busting in the first place, which at that point in the series wasn’t something that they were proven capable of doing.”

    I suppose this hinges on the saiyan saga thing, which I replied to at the top of this post; just quoting this to show I’m not selectively ignoring things.

    Anyway, here’s the Goku-blocking-Buu’s-Kamehameha scan requested earlier:

    www.mangapanda.com/105-3160-10/dragon-ball/chapter-511.html

    www.mangapanda.com/105-3160-11/dragon-ball/chapter-511.html

    Granted, this is somewhat of a moot point since people are still going to say that this wasn’t necessarily a planet-buster (to which I would say that Kamehamehas from much weaker characters were planet-busters, so this should be too, but power-scaling is a dirty word around here), but I was asked for it so here it is.

  75. Xornell February 6, 2015 at 6:55 pm -      #75

    Can’t stay long because of school, but I don’t believe many, or even any, dbz characters claim to “bust planets”, merely destroy them. This is hella ambiguous, and even serves as the end of the bills vs goku fight (destroyed a tiny part of Earth = destroying earth). We should take that into consideration as well in this, that destroy means a number of things.

  76. CH1C4N0444 is allergic to bullets February 7, 2015 at 3:18 am -      #76

    “The whole reason Goku didn’t just dodge was because if it hit the planet, it would’ve destroyed it.”

    That’s what it was supposed to do, but we have no actual proof that that’s what it was going to do.
    =
    “He still deflected it with physical strength only.”

    If I deflect your punch does that mean I took the full force of your hit? Or, better yet, if you threw a grenade at me and I kick it, does that mean I took the full force of the grenade’s explosion?
    =
    “Again, Gohan was still putting the same power input into the continuously-firing Kamehameha, it wouldn’t have weakened; and again, Cell wasn’t at full power when Goku got him. As for being pretty wounded, I don’t know if he’d have died without regen; he’d have been out of the fight for sure, though.”

    It still would’ve been weakened by the previous Kamehameha. Look at it this way, if you’re running at full speed and suddenly a man jumps in front of you and you decide to keep pushing him at full power, you’d still be slowed down by the man, regardless of whether you’re going full force still or not. And we’ve seen Cell get fried from a planet busting Kamehameha before without it having to counter a previous Kamehameha.
    =
    “I’m willing to accept that for things like Frieza deflecting Vegeta’s attack before it detonated, but Goku undeniably stopped everything Bills’ blast had.”

    Again, absorption or he’s just that durable, but either way it didn’t happen until after he turned SSG again, before that he was just taking the physical portion of the attack.
    =
    ” I was referring to DB specifically.”

    You were asking what the qualifications were for characters to be accepted planet level strength, I gave that to you, DB gets no special treatment or exemption from that. No verse does.
    =
    “Not to my memory”

    www.mangapanda.com/105-3049-10/dragon-ball/chapter-400.html
    =
    ” There was a question, but it wasn’t about the planet-busting potential of the attack; that was a given.”

    No, that’s what he was asking about, seeing how literally seconds earlier the Kamehameha was fired, he couldn’t of been wondering if the blast was going to be fired or not since that’s what Cell did, so it’d have to have been the potency of said attack.
    =
    “So his 2/3 power is weaker than his 50% power? What?”

    Never said that. I said there’s nothing to assume that particular blast was as powerful as the planet busting blast. You’re assuming each and every blast is capable of planet busting, they’re not. They clearly tell us which are, that was not one of those blasts.
    =
    “Again, in DBZ specifically, durability, among other stats like that, scales with power level. To what extent is unknown, but it does.”

    No, that’s not how it works. Powerscaling doesn’t always cut it, DB is no different. Character A beat Character B isn’t proof of this. Again, DB gets no special treatment.
    =
    “Granted, this is somewhat of a moot point since people are still going to say that this wasn’t necessarily a planet-buster”

    Again, if DB characters stopped announcing that their attacks were capable of destroying planets each and every time they were going to do so, and destroyed a planet with an attack without announcing it, then we have no reason to believe that they aren’t capable of it with each and every attack(even then, only the character who’s done it would be given exemption). I told you above, comic characters just go around and do it, there’s no special mention from the characters, they just do it. DB doesn’t do that, each time an attack is on that caliber they warn everyone, and each time they shit themselves because of it. And as of yet, no one has survived such an attack.
    =
    “(to which I would say that Kamehamehas from much weaker characters were planet-busters, so this should be too”

    And each time those planet busting attacks were thrown they were announced before hand, no one ever tanked the full power of it, it was dodged, or it was reflected.
    =
    “, but power-scaling is a dirty word around here),”

    static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11114/111142536/4017334-8424_1136590140943_1413049612_30358.jpg

    Marvel Earth has humans with FTL reactions and can hit with more force than a supernova, why? Because they managed to knockout a character with FTL reactions who surfs on supernovas, why? Because Powerscaling.
    =
    There’s no one in DB to have every tanked a planet busting attack. To add a bit to my list:

    Vegeta’s “planet busting blast” that Goku countered is unfounded.

    Same with the one that Frieza redirected.

    Frieza blows up Namek, everyone gets wished to Earth, Goku finds a way off planet, Frieza survives the explosion of the planet, not the actual planet busting attack.

    Cell wants to blow up planet, everyone freaks out, Goku flies up to avoid the planet being destroyed and ITs back to Cell to avoid the explosion.

    Goku starts a planet busting Kamehameha, ITs to under Cell, Cell gets fried, survives due to Regen.

    Cell powers up another Kamehameha to blow up Earth, Gohan counters with a Kamehameha. Cell, still winds up essentially fried, still survives from Regen.

    Cell decides to do the honorabre thing and performs ritual suicide and Goku ITs and King Kai and Goku die, Cell survives yet again from regen.

    Cell and SS2 Gohan have their final clash and Cell dies. Here is the infamous “solar system” busting claim, unfounded, safe to assume at least planet busting in powers.

    Move a couple years forward and Buu comes around wanting to blow up Earth. He does so and everyone who’s on Earth dies, except Buu who survives due to regen. –
    Had ANY of the characters that died in that explosion actually survived a planet busting attack/explosion before this event I'd just dismiss it as a low end feat and would back you up on the powerscaling(in fact, me and Aelfinn have argued about one off outlier feats before where he argues feats from certain characters should be dismissed due to them never happening again or being done once and countered by other showings), but NO ONE involved has survived such a thing and you can't just say: "Frieza did so they can." since we see right there that they can't despite the fact Frieza has.

    In comes Bills and from here forward is where we have potentially planet busting physical blows(see above)vs Goku. This is the only possible exception to the entire series where someone has physical blows capable of destroying planets and where people might have durability to survive it.

    Note, all of these are assuming that those attacks were supposedly planet busters(out of that list only two have been confirmed as such, the rest are just begrudgingly accepted by me, not the whole FP community mind you, who may or may not accept them, as such)only two of them have been confirmed.

  77. Ragnorke February 7, 2015 at 3:36 am -      #77

    Btw, wasn’t Ultrons most recent incarnation the one in Mighty Avengers? Where he had the Female body?
    I thought that was stronger than his Conquest incarnation.

    It fought The Sentry, Wonderman, Miss Marvel, and Ares… Which is a pretty high end roster.

  78. Aelfinn February 7, 2015 at 3:56 am -      #78

    On Goku surviving the God Desctruction Sphere of Doom and Gloom: not even Goku knows how he did it. We can form nothing conclusive from it, as if Goku purely tanked it, no one would have been confused at all, but both Goku and Bills were. Another possibility also exists: he blew it up with his ki from the inside.
    =
    On Bills “flying through worlds”. Firstly, those planets seemed way smaller than they should have. Are they inside an atmosphere? It may be due to the weird God-realm or whatever, but it doesn’t seem right. Also: we don’t actually see him fly through the planets. He could very easily have used his ki to blow them up (Side-note, they didn’t look like any planet that had been blown up in the series either.)
    =
    On the strongest punches in DBZ: I believe there’s a scene where Kid Buu and Goku punch each other really hard and it causes a lot of ground upheaval, so if you assume it to be the biggest earthquake ever, you get stuff in the gigatons. For what it’s worth, the fight between Bills and SSJG doesn’t even compare in feats to the fight between Goku and Kid Buu.

  79. CH1C4N0444 is allergic to bullets February 7, 2015 at 4:17 am -      #79

    “Firstly, those planets seemed way smaller than they should have.”

    And you’re basing this on what exactly? The giant tree of which we have no size for, or the giant vast space which we also have no size for? For all we know, they could be planets larger than our star or merely city sized, we don’t know either way. I was mostly getting the point across that a feat like that was done. If it’s comparable to destroying Earth or not is a separate thing altogether.

    “Are they inside an atmosphere?”

    Maybe, we don’t know.

    “It may be due to the weird God-realm or whatever, but it doesn’t seem right.”

    Doesn’t matter if it “seems right” what matters is that he did it.
    =
    “Also: we don’t actually see him fly through the planets.”

    We see him start flying up, we see planets exploding one by one, we see Bills fly back. I’m pretty sure it’s clear they were trying to tell us he flew through them.
    =
    ” He could very easily have used his ki to blow them up”

    Except we don’t see him charge up a ki blast? And there’s more evidence pointing to him flying through them than charging a ki blast.
    =
    ” (Side-note, they didn’t look like any planet that had been blown up in the series either.)”

    Why would that matter? It was meant to be a funny scene, actually making them blow up like everything else would’ve turned it a lot darker than what they were going for.

  80. captain napalm February 7, 2015 at 5:49 am -      #80

    “That’s what it was supposed to do, but we have no actual proof that that’s what it was going to do.”

    If it wasn’t gonna do that, Goku would’ve dodged it.

    “If I deflect your punch does that mean I took the full force of your hit? Or, better yet, if you threw a grenade at me and I kick it, does that mean I took the full force of the grenade’s explosion?”

    What I was responding to was not the fact that he didn’t counter the detonation (only the physical force portion of the blast), which has already been said and I have agreed with, but the claim that the fact that he jumped up and kicked it lessened its impact somehow. This isn’t like he deflected it off to the side to avoid most of the force, he hit it head-on and sent it pretty much right back up where it came from.

    “It still would’ve been weakened by the previous Kamehameha. Look at it this way, if you’re running at full speed and suddenly a man jumps in front of you and you decide to keep pushing him at full power, you’d still be slowed down by the man, regardless of whether you’re going full force still or not. And we’ve seen Cell get fried from a planet busting Kamehameha before without it having to counter a previous Kamehameha.”

    Not the same–that’s directly slowing you and your running, whereas Gohan was still behind the Kamehameha, undeterred, providing the same power, and once it reached Cell it was no longer being opposed by his own Kamehameha.

    “Again, absorption or he’s just that durable, but either way it didn’t happen until after he turned SSG again, before that he was just taking the physical portion of the attack.”

    Not that I have ever claimed otherwise, but true.

    “You were asking what the qualifications were for characters to be accepted planet level strength, I gave that to you, DB gets no special treatment or exemption from that. No verse does.”

    Yes, I used very poor phrasing the first time. Let me try and elaborate in a more calm manner: Given that no DB characters have ever busted planets with physical strength, I find myself somewhat exasperated in trying to prove that they are indeed at that level of physical strength, their physical blows merely lack the area of effect to actually do so.

    “No, that’s what he was asking about, seeing how literally seconds earlier the Kamehameha was fired, he couldn’t of been wondering if the blast was going to be fired or not since that’s what Cell did, so it’d have to have been the potency of said attack.”

    The question he’s asking is if Cell would have fired even if he hadn’t jumped. The fact that he jumped meant the blast didn’t hit the Earth, and it would have destroyed it if it had. i.e. he wants to know if Cell was willing to destroy the Earth. He’s not asking if Cell’s capable of doing so.

    “Never said that. I said there’s nothing to assume that particular blast was as powerful as the planet busting blast. You’re assuming each and every blast is capable of planet busting, they’re not. They clearly tell us which are, that was not one of those blasts.”

    Point conceded.

    “No, that’s not how it works. Powerscaling doesn’t always cut it, DB is no different. Character A beat Character B isn’t proof of this. Again, DB gets no special treatment.”

    I’m not using “character A beat character B” as proof. I’m using “character A has more ki than character B, in a universe where more ki equals more durability, speed, strength, etc.”.

    “Again, if DB characters stopped announcing that their attacks were capable of destroying planets each and every time they were going to do so, and destroyed a planet with an attack without announcing it, then we have no reason to believe that they aren’t capable of it with each and every attack(even then, only the character who’s done it would be given exemption). I told you above, comic characters just go around and do it, there’s no special mention from the characters, they just do it. DB doesn’t do that, each time an attack is on that caliber they warn everyone, and each time they shit themselves because of it. And as of yet, no one has survived such an attack.”

    Not sure how I can respond to this given that much of the rest of this post is me trying to argue that characters have survived such attacks, but I do see what you’re saying.

    “And each time those planet busting attacks were thrown they were announced before hand, no one ever tanked the full power of it, it was dodged, or it was reflected.”

    “Marvel Earth has humans with FTL reactions and can hit with more force than a supernova, why? Because they managed to knockout a character with FTL reactions who surfs on supernovas, why? Because Powerscaling.”

    Okay, so how about the Kid Buu one? (I’m responding to both of those with this because A. I still believe it’s an example of a time such an attack was tanked, and B. I’m attempting more solid, logical powerscaling.) Obviously he didn’t say it was a planet-buster, because…well, because he’s Kid Buu, he only speaks like once in the series. So does that make it not provably planet-busting? Not really, since the thing about these characters is that they draw from the same power-source. Frieza destroyed at least two planets, by using ki. Hence it takes at most Frieza’s amount of ki to destroy a planet. Now here’s Kid Buu firing at Goku. Goku blocks it with his arms, explosion and all. So the only way it could not be planet-busting in strength is:
    1. If Kid Buu had less ki than Frieza, since we know Frieza’s amount of ki can destroy a planet. But Kid Buu has much more.
    Or 2. If he was holding back most of his power to lower the amount of ki he used to less than Frieza’s. But that’s kind of crazy–there’s no reason he would. He doesn’t care about destroying the planet he’s on, as shown when he blew up Earth. And he’s trying his damnedest to kill Goku. And he’s not trying to conserve energy since he can’t get tired. There’s nothing to suggest it’s anything less than his full power. Hence it must be more ki than Frieza’s planet-buster, and therefore stronger than it. And Goku blocks it with his forearms.

    “Move a couple years forward and Buu comes around wanting to blow up Earth. He does so and everyone who’s on Earth dies, except Buu who survives due to regen. –
    When Kid Buu blew up the Earth, the only stronger-than-Frieza fighters who hadn't yet been killed either were unconscious (Gohan, Goten, Trunks, Piccolo) or escaped (Goku, Vegeta). Not to mention what they were running from was Kid Buu's attack, not the planet's explosion itself. Which makes since, because Kid Buu is vastly more powerful than Frieza so it's not gonna be the same power as Frieza's attack.

    As for Buu himself only surviving due to regen, his regeneration made him cocky and like to dick around and lower his power level because, I dunno, he liked regenerating. Prime example: He takes punches that we can agree are at least island-level or city-block-level or something one minute, without coming to pieces, then the next he lowers his power to let ordinary bullets rip straight through him just because he can.

    "On Goku surviving the God Desctruction Sphere of Doom and Gloom: not even Goku knows how he did it. We can form nothing conclusive from it, as if Goku purely tanked it, no one would have been confused at all, but both Goku and Bills were. Another possibility also exists: he blew it up with his ki from the inside."

    The whole "I don't know" bit was Goku not realising he'd gone SSJG again. Bills was asking him how he'd gained enough power to survive it, and Goku had no clue (I mean, only reasonable he wouldn't realise he went SSJG for a split second, he didn't realise he'd dropped out of SSJG in the first place, and subsequently gone SSJ, until Bills told him).

  81. Jake_Uzumaki February 7, 2015 at 11:30 am -      #81

    “If it wasn’t gonna do that, Goku would’ve dodged it.”

    Right….its not like Goku was exhausted, had pushed his body to the limit…..and is too much of a dogged nice guy to call the bluff of someone who is having a fucking mental breakdown because he’s gone through what he considers a humiliation conga courtesy of Goku shattering his pride like a pane of glass….does Goku even understand the concept of bluffing someone? For all we know Vegeta was hoping Goku would be stupid enough to just stand there and get killed and instead of countering by literally pushing his body beyond its limit.

  82. Aelfinn February 7, 2015 at 1:09 pm -      #82

    “And you’re basing this on what exactly? The giant tree of which we have no size for, or the giant vast space which we also have no size for?”

    I had really hoped you would read my entire post before commenting like that, but whatevs. I admitted we had no idea how big of a space we were working with by referring to it as a god-realm
    =
    ” For all we know, they could be planets larger than our star or merely city sized, we don’t know either way.”

    This was exactly my point. If we don’t know how big of a world it is, then we can’t say he’s “planet-busting” in the usual sense. Considering King Kai’s planet in the series itself is very small, we can’t make any conclusions.
    =
    “Doesn’t matter if it “seems right” what matters is that he did it.”

    What I’m getting at is that is may be too ambiguous to make a call.
    =
    “We see him start flying up, we see planets exploding one by one, we see Bills fly back. I’m pretty sure it’s clear they were trying to tell us he flew through them.”

    I don’t. No one in the history of DBZ has flown through a planet, every planet-bust has required ki, and the fact that all we do is see him fly up means nothing. Furthermore, if he’s casually that planet-busting, then the entire fight between him and Goku makes absolutely no sense.

  83. CH1C4N0444 is allergic to bullets February 7, 2015 at 2:36 pm -      #83

    “If it wasn’t gonna do that, Goku would’ve dodged it.”

    You’d have to actually prove that it was planet busting attack by showing us Vegeta planet busting before hand.
    =
    “but the claim that the fact that he jumped up and kicked it lessened its impact somehow. ”

    Which was never questioned. What was questioned was the potency of the blast and Frieza’s durability to actually survive said blast if it was capable of such.
    =
    “Not the same”

    It’s exactly the same.
    =
    “once it reached Cell it was no longer being opposed by his own Kamehameha.”

    It still had to go through another Kamehameha, and considering one planet busting kamehameha utterly wrecked him and another one that had to go through a kamehameha of similar power tells me that by the time it reached him the blast lost potency since we see differing effects.
    =
    ” Given that no DB characters have ever busted planets with physical strength, I find myself somewhat exasperated in trying to prove that they are indeed at that level of physical strength”

    Which there is no proof for, except for Bills, maybe. Even that’s being contended.
    =
    “I’m not using ‘character A beat character B’ as proof. I’m using ‘character A has more ki than character B, in a universe where more ki equals more durability, speed, strength, etc.'”

    Which is still powerscaling based off of something other than a direct conflict of the same categories e.g. Character A running faster than Character B vs Character C having energy than Character D and coming to the conclusion he is faster

    Never mind the fact that we’ve seen in universe examples of increased power not being equally distributed across all physical stats.
    =
    “Obviously he didn’t say it was a planet-buster, because…well, because he’s Kid Buu,”

    No, but the two times he had thrown an attack of that caliber it was definitely mentioned by a character. It was far from it just being an attack.
    =
    ” So does that make it not provably planet-busting?”

    In a universe where attacks of that caliber are almost always announced, yes.
    =
    “1. If Kid Buu had less ki than Frieza, since we know Frieza’s amount of ki can destroy a planet. But Kid Buu has much more.
    Or 2. If he was holding back most of his power to lower the amount of ki he used to less than Frieza’s”

    or 3. Which is that his attack just didn’t have as much power as the planet busting one. Holding back doesn’t mean that each and every attack is going to have the full force of your blows. Think of it like wrestling a friend, sure, you’re trying to beat him so you’re not holding back, but that doesn’t mean you’re going all out either and using all your strength to win or doing anything you can to win.
    =
    ” who hadn’t yet been killed either were unconscious (Gohan, Goten, Trunks, Piccolo)”

    The explosion did kill them though.
    =
    “Not to mention what they were running from was Kid Buu’s attack, not the planet’s explosion itself”

    It doesn’t matter what they were running from, what matters is that they were so scared of planet not being there that they ran as fast as they could to get away from it. Whether it was the planet exploding or the actual planet busting attack that they were running from they were still so scared of it that they were trying to get off of the planet to survive.
    =
    “He takes punches that we can agree are at least island-level or city-block-level or something one minute, without coming to pieces, then the next he lowers his power to let ordinary bullets rip straight through him just because he can.”

    Punching=/=penetrating power of bullets. They’re different forms of damage and aren’t really comparable. A lot of things could play into that.
    =
    “I don’t.”

    How do you not? There’s no evidence that he used any ki, and there’s evidence to support he started travelling from his current position. We see him fly up, then we see him come back around parallel to the ground. In between those scenes we see planets exploding one by one. There’s more evidence to support he flew through them than there is that he used a ki blast.
    =
    ” Furthermore, if he’s casually that planet-busting, then the entire fight between him and Goku makes absolutely no sense.”

    How does it not? At first Bills wanted to find a worthy opponent, finds Goku, then finds him lacking, and wants to just embarrass him at that point. He was also holding back the entire time he was in the movie. At no point does he ever actually try. WoG says that Goku is a 6 and Bills is a 10 in power.

    www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/battle-gods-animanga-akira-toriyama/

    IIRC the movie tells us Goku was going about 80% while Bills was using 70%.Neither were actually going all out, and if either had Bills would still trump Goku in overall power.
    =
    Out of curiousity who would be a good match up for Thanos, Adam Warlock, Magus, and the Goddess? Could DC’s Earth 2 take them?

  84. Ragnorke February 7, 2015 at 3:25 pm -      #84

    “Out of curiousity who would be a good match up for Thanos, Adam Warlock, Magus, and the Goddess? Could DC’s Earth 2 take them?”

    Current Warlock absorbed the energy that would have destroyed the entire universes space & time… So… Unless he gets speedblitsed, i don’t think most energy attacks can hurt him.

    The Goddess doesn’t have much feats… And the feats she does have, she performed under the influence of a bunch of Cosmic Cubes… So it’s hard to say anything about her.
    She has a ton of mind fuckery right?

    Thanos is Thanos.
    Magus is above Thanos.

    It’s worth pointing out that “Earth-2″ & “Earth-two” are two different realities, according to the DC wiki.
    Earth-Two is where all the pre-crises heroes went, after the Infinite Crises.
    Earth-2 is just another alternate reality, with the “Justice Society Infinite” & a missing Superman.

  85. Aelfinn February 7, 2015 at 4:18 pm -      #85

    “How do you not? There’s no evidence that he used any ki, and there’s evidence to support he started travelling from his current position. We see him fly up, then we see him come back around parallel to the ground.”

    That’s ALL we see though. We don’t see him actually fly through the planets. There’s just as much evidence for one as for the other: none. Either way, it doesn’t fix the problem that those planets could very well be smaller than normal planets.
    =
    “How does it not? At first Bills wanted to find a worthy opponent, finds Goku, then finds him lacking, and wants to just embarrass him at that point.”

    The fight where Goku, as Super Saiyan God, goes 80% yet doesn’t blow up the earth with his punches, and gets hurt by punches that are mountain-busting at best? Re-watch the fight. Bills does get angry when he learns Goku was holding back. He might not go 100%, but he certainly tried. Enough to say that he was tired after the fight with Goku. If they were exchanging planet-busting attacks, every collision should have wrecked countries, yet Bills draws Goku’s blood with something much, much less.
    =
    “IIRC the movie tells us Goku was going about 80% while Bills was using 70%.Neither were actually going all out, and if either had Bills would still trump Goku in overall power.”

    If Bills can physically destroy planets as casually as you are implying, then 70% should still be continent-wrecking, if not planet-busting.
    =
    Hell, Vegeta actually drew blood from Bills, and we don’t see any countries getting wrecked.

  86. Warlock Lowk February 7, 2015 at 11:36 pm -      #86

    “does Goku even understand the concept of bluffing someone?”

    I dunno

    I think it might be a strong possibly that he does.

  87. Jake_Uzumaki February 8, 2015 at 12:26 am -      #87

    Okay, let me rephrase, did he understand at the time of the battle with Cell.

    Also why does Cell give a rats ass about Goku potentially blowing up the world in that scene?

  88. Ragnorke February 8, 2015 at 1:13 am -      #88

    @Aelfinn
    “That’s ALL we see though. We don’t see him actually fly through the planets. There’s just as much evidence for one as for the other: none. Either way, it doesn’t fix the problem that those planets could very well be smaller than normal planets.”

    I kind of agree with you on the first part… but heavily disagree on the second bit.
    If we don’t have anything to scale the planet off of, we almost ALWAYS scale it off of Earth.

    Earth is the base size & base density that most fictional writers use.
    It’s true that the planet could have been a thousand times smaller, but it could also have been a trillion times larger.
    Should every planet busting feat be thrown out the window as useless, because we don’t have the specifics of its Size & Density?

    I like to think of Writers Intent in a situation like this, and i’m quite sure Writers don’t quite grasp the concept of varying sizes of Planets quite well… and thus scale them all according to Earth.

    Maybe it’s 10 times smaller, or 10 times bigger… But that’s a marginal amount when dealing with planets.
    In order for the feat to be in a different “Tier” or “League”, the planet needs to be proven to be thousands of times larger/smaller than Earth first.

  89. Aelfinn February 8, 2015 at 4:02 am -      #89

    “If we don’t have anything to scale the planet off of, we almost ALWAYS scale it off of Earth.”

    We already know that divine beings in DBZ live on weird planets – just look at King Kai on his really small planet that had gravity 10x earth. We also know that these were inherently abnormal planets: they’re under an atmosphere for pete’s sake, and there’s no nearby sun. Third, if any real-sized planets actually got that close together, they’d be drawn into each other by their own gravity.

  90. captain napalm February 8, 2015 at 8:45 am -      #90

    “You’d have to actually prove that it was planet busting attack by showing us Vegeta planet busting before hand.”

    I suppose, outside of filler, I can’t prove that, no, and I don’t know how good an argument author intent (i.e. no reason Toriyama would have put that in except to tell the audience, “Oh no! If Goku doesn’t counter the Earth will be destroyed!”) is.

    “Which was never questioned. What was questioned was the potency of the blast and Frieza’s durability to actually survive said blast if it was capable of such.”

    Right, right.

    “It’s exactly the same.”

    I guess this is what they call an impasse.

    “It still had to go through another Kamehameha, and considering one planet busting kamehameha utterly wrecked him and another one that had to go through a kamehameha of similar power tells me that by the time it reached him the blast lost potency since we see differing effects.”

    Okay, so…you’re driving a car at 50MPH. You come across another car going 30MPH in the opposite directino (and somehow the collision doesn’t just destroy everything because, uh…analogy). Sure, it slows your car down. But as soon as you shove that car out of the way, assuming you’re still holding down the accelerator to the same degree, you’ll accelerate back up to 50. (And I put down the differing effects to Cell not being fully powered up when Goku hit him.)

    “Which there is no proof for, except for Bills, maybe. Even that’s being contended.”

    Well, that’s what I’m trying to contest with all these posts that I’m just starting to realise are crazy long, yes.

    “Which is still powerscaling based off of something other than a direct conflict of the same categories e.g. Character A running faster than Character B vs Character C having energy than Character D and coming to the conclusion he is faster”

    Except that in the DBZ universe ‘ki’ is a quantifiable category.

    “Never mind the fact that we’ve seen in universe examples of increased power not being equally distributed across all physical stats.”

    To relatively small levels. Not to the point where Kid Buu could be inferior to Frieza in any physical stat.

    “No, but the two times he had thrown an attack of that caliber it was definitely mentioned by a character. It was far from it just being an attack.”

    Some attacks being mentioned as planet-busters=/=any attack not mentioned to be a planet-buster automatically not being a planet-buster.

    “or 3. Which is that his attack just didn’t have as much power as the planet busting one. Holding back doesn’t mean that each and every attack is going to have the full force of your blows. Think of it like wrestling a friend, sure, you’re trying to beat him so you’re not holding back, but that doesn’t mean you’re going all out either and using all your strength to win or doing anything you can to win.”

    I can’t imagine Buu’s using less than full power or nearly that, but I guess I can’t prove that. Still, if what you’re saying is true, that would mean that 50% Frieza, without even some Kienzan-like techique, could kill SSJ3 Goku if he hit him with that. And that doesn’t make a lot of sense.

    “The explosion did kill them though.”

    While they were unconscious and unable to use ki to strengthen their physical bodies, yes.

    “It doesn’t matter what they were running from, what matters is that they were so scared of planet not being there that they ran as fast as they could to get away from it. Whether it was the planet exploding or the actual planet busting attack that they were running from they were still so scared of it that they were trying to get off of the planet to survive.”

    Yes, they ran from Kid Buu’s attack. Because it had a lot more power than Frieza’s attack. Being able to be killed by Kid Buu’s planet-buster =/= being able to be killed by a vastly weaker character’s planet-buster.

    “Punching=/=penetrating power of bullets. They’re different forms of damage and aren’t really comparable. A lot of things could play into that.”

    I’m…pretty sure we can all agree that Buu has sufficient durability that the only way bullets would go through him like that is if he let them.

    “That’s ALL we see though. We don’t see him actually fly through the planets. There’s just as much evidence for one as for the other: none. Either way, it doesn’t fix the problem that those planets could very well be smaller than normal planets.”

    While we certainly can’t ascertain the size of the planets, it’s pretty clear that the comedy here is ‘Bills tastes too-spicy food, goes flying and bounces around, destroying everything in his path’.

    “Hell, Vegeta actually drew blood from Bills, and we don’t see any countries getting wrecked.”

    That would be because he didn’t attack a country, he attacked Bills. Having the strength to destroy something does not mean you’re automatically going to destroy that size thing every time you attack. Not that this proves he IS that strong, all I’m saying is that it doesn’t prove he isn’t.

  91. Jake_Uzumaki February 8, 2015 at 10:16 am -      #91

    Thor cracked a planet/moon through the void of space…..by punching Gorr full force….
    Naruto created a massive crater fairly deep into the moon under him….by punching Toneri in the face……
    In neither instance did they attack the object they damaged but it sure as hell damaged it.

    Goku’s punch that Bills blocked and several other punches caused craters and the cracking of the ground under them.

  92. captain napalm February 8, 2015 at 2:10 pm -      #92

    “Goku’s punch that Bills blocked and several other punches caused craters and the cracking of the ground under them.”

    And Vegeta was stronger than Goku at that time. Bills blocked Goku’s crater-causing punches with ease, but was getting slapped around for a bit by Vegeta (plus Roshi saying “Vegeta finally surpassed Goku” and all).

  93. Jake_Uzumaki February 8, 2015 at 2:34 pm -      #93

    Vegeta was finally more powerful but there was no evidence he was physically stronger.

  94. Ragnorke February 8, 2015 at 2:39 pm -      #94

    “Goku’s punch that Bills blocked and several other punches caused craters and the cracking of the ground under them.”

    I actually think this is measurable.
    Maybe.

  95. Jake_Uzumaki February 8, 2015 at 2:59 pm -      #95

    I’m pretty sure it is but I don’t know where to begin on it (I was actually going to ask Aelfinn to calc Naruto’s punch back in the Revan thread but the video got taken off of Youtube and I haven’t found another version yet)

  96. GrandMaster February 8, 2015 at 5:19 pm -      #96

    This is a video of Vegeta destroying a planet. And he isn’t exerting himself as much as he did when he fought Goku
    www.bing.com/videos/search?q=vegeta+blows+up+planet&FORM=VIRE1#view=detail&mid=8CF55FD21D730290F4D68CF55FD21D730290F4D6

    But having said that, I’m pretty sure Darkseid trumps all of Team 2.

  97. Jake_Uzumaki February 8, 2015 at 5:39 pm -      #97

    You mean the filler scene that never happened in the original canon?

  98. Aelfinn February 9, 2015 at 12:03 am -      #98

    “That would be because he didn’t attack a country, he attacked Bills. Having the strength to destroy something does not mean you’re automatically going to destroy that size thing every time you attack. Not that this proves he IS that strong, all I’m saying is that it doesn’t prove he isn’t.”

    The energy still has to go somewhere. If I get punched with nuke-level fists and no-sell them, I still have to exert some kind of forwards force to counteract it to any noticeable extent. That is, unless I’m really, REALLY heavy.
    =
    “I’m pretty sure it is but I don’t know where to begin on it (I was actually going to ask Aelfinn to calc Naruto’s punch back in the Revan thread but the video got taken off of Youtube and I haven’t found another version yet)”

    The one where he punches him on the moon? The thing about that is that it doesn’t make a whole lot of sense, considering there’s no air on the moon for the shockwave from the punch to spread. The only thing that makes sense is that the dude rocked backwards onto his heels so hard that it caused the crater.

  99. captain napalm February 9, 2015 at 6:06 am -      #99

    “Vegeta was finally more powerful but there was no evidence he was physically stronger.”

    There may be a couple exceptions to the even spread of stat increases (the bulked-up SSJ forms increasing overall power but reducing speed, the Ginyu Force’s mutations), but having a higher power level in DBZ makes you stronger. That’s how ki works. There has never been a DBZ character who’s been stronger than a character with higher power.

    “The energy still has to go somewhere. If I get punched with nuke-level fists and no-sell them, I still have to exert some kind of forwards force to counteract it to any noticeable extent. That is, unless I’m really, REALLY heavy.”

    Then I suppose that’s a plot-hole, i.e. the writers not getting how physics work, because there’s no way Bills would’ve even been flinched by punches that weren’t that strong (vastly weaker Buuhan used his hands to knock back a ki blast with enough force to send it drilling straight through the Earth and out the other side; even-weaker-than-that Frieza-saga Goku kicking Frieza through an island, Frieza not injured at all).

  100. Jake_Uzumaki February 9, 2015 at 8:02 am -      #100

    @Aelfinn
    would it be possible to gauge how hard he hit Toneri based on the impact crater when he hits the cliff face?

Leave A Response

You must be logged in to post a comment.