Anti Spirals Vs Xeelee

Anti Spirals vs Xeelee

Suggested by Malenfant

The entire Xeelee race (protoXeelee and antiXeelee included), from the Xeelee Sequence, goes up against the Anti-Spirals from Gurren Lagann.

 

Who wins?

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89 Comments on "Anti Spirals Vs Xeelee"

  1. andrew January 29, 2015 at 6:31 am -      #1

    Well thy are both type-4’s…

    But i don’t know the xeelee. Can they cross dimensions and create pocket dimensions with a similar efficacy to the antispirals? Can they weaponise energy equal to mulitple galactic systems?

  2. Hermit January 29, 2015 at 7:49 am -      #2
  3. The Imperator January 29, 2015 at 10:45 am -      #3

    Huh, good match. I don’t know if the Xeelee can actually hurt the Anti-Spirals.

  4. pimpmage January 29, 2015 at 11:03 am -      #4

    I skimmed the first few comments of that thread and it mentioned how those guys fling suns around at near light speed as weapons. That is literally nothing to mechs that are thousands of times larger than a standard galaxy.

  5. Rookie January 29, 2015 at 11:30 am -      #5

    @pimpmage

    Here some more:
    forums.spacebattles.com/threads/xeeleeverse-feats-thread-a-technical-debate.295383/
    forums.spacebattles.com/threads/xeelee-verse-feat-thread.301669/
    I myself however know zero about Xelee or Anti Spiral, so I have no idea who will win.

  6. Centurion-A001 January 29, 2015 at 11:58 am -      #6

    For me, reading the Xeelee Sequence was about as difficult as reading the Silmarillion, and Gurren Lagan lost me right about when sheer willpower started up and controlled an alien death machine, so my knowledge is fairly limited.
    .
    While the Xeelee have pistols that destroy stars, Gurren Lagan operates in more along the galactic scale. Like throwing galaxies like shurikan. Plus the Xeelee weapons that are on a cosmic scale generally take ‘realistic’ amounts of time to work properly. i.e. cosmic string scattering galaxies over millions of years. However, Xeelee are also good enough with time travel to compete with the Time Lords, so I honestly have no idea who would win this match.

  7. Yatsukahagi January 29, 2015 at 12:04 pm -      #7

    The Anti-Spirals lost to a galaxy chucking robot using what amounted to a false vacuum collapse (Infinity Big Bang Storm). The Xeelee, on the other hand, dealt with galaxies as RKKV attacks and happened to specialize in dealing with false vacuum collapses. They also draw their energy from the vacuum on a daily basis in their weapons, therefore giving them an unbounded energy source to bend space through the sheer reality-raping effect of their weapons firing, and are more than capable of engineering a solution to universal collapse when they aren’t dealing with entropy or Photino Birds.

    In any event, I would say the Xeelee win. Baxter consistently paints a better picture of their power than anything I’ve ever seen from TTGL.

    “I skimmed the first few comments of that thread and it mentioned how those guys fling suns around at near light speed as weapons. That is literally nothing to mechs that are thousands of times larger than a standard galaxy.”

    Those were a sect of posthumans who weren’t Transcendent, if I do recall correctly. That entire thread besides was terrible zeitgeist of poorly thought out ideas, misrepresentation, bullshitting, side tracking, potential trolling and wank. I would ignore it if I were you.

  8. Sauroposeidon January 29, 2015 at 2:23 pm -      #8

    ” (Infinity Big Bang Storm)”

    I should point out that this is only the strongest thing they did in the series. In the movie, their super form is considerably stronger.. and I don’t believe that was their intended limit either, as they intentionally scaled themselves down to fight the TTGL. They lost because of their willingness to fight evenly.. even if it was meant as a morale crusher. In the movies, when Team Dai-Gurren absorbed the big bang’s power and became stronger, the Anti-Spirals were perfectly happy to scale up. If for no other reason to remind Team Dai-Gurren that there was no way they could actually out scale them in power. They had to win on their own merits alone.

    That being said, I’ve made my displeasure known of trying to use just the muscle of the anti-spirals as opposed to their known tricks. They are for all intents and purposes unquantifiable, and many of their tricks are useless when up against roughly equal abilities because there’s zero way to gauge whether their trick is stronger or weaker (such as probability altering) than their enemy’s. I’ll do it again here. They aren’t good opponents for matches like this. They serve much better for hero/villain fights where the opponent doesn’t win through bullshit means like, say, Q. Because, again, there’s no real way to gauge their bullshit against the enemy’s bullshit.

    I don’t know if the xeelee can hurt the anti-spirals at their strongest we’ve ever seen from them.. but I suppose the question is, as morale-busting is a major part of the anti-spiral strategy, would the xeelee have the guts and ingenuity to defeat the anti-spirals once they scale themselves to the xeelee’s level if they are stronger?

  9. Yatsukahagi January 29, 2015 at 2:58 pm -      #9

    We can truly say nothing about what the Xeelee think and how they ‘feel’. We are completely unsure whether ‘guts’ or even mortality are concepts to them. In the words of the author, us grasping the inner workings of the Xeelee ecumene would be akin to an ant understanding the internal affairs of the United Nations- a complete and utter impossibility.

    I am seeing many claims in your post, but little substantiation. Is it truly possible for them to scale to the Xeelee? If the Infinite Big Bang Storm isn’t the feat maximam of the show, then what exactly are we discussing here in terms of strength?

  10. pimpmage January 29, 2015 at 3:14 pm -      #10

    In the movie, the two mechs pulled the entire universe and all light into a single point between their two clashing drills. This did not effect the actual mechs whatsoever. They are made of, and can produce infinite mass or energy.

  11. jackn8r January 29, 2015 at 3:27 pm -      #11

    This is composite Xeelee so pretty strong. Anti-Xeelee grants them omniscience practically. I don’t think the proto-Xeelee add anything to this; not much is known. Feats really only exist for the federation which is proto-proto-Xeelee.
    Are anti-spirals corporeal? How/where do they exist?

  12. Yatsukahagi January 29, 2015 at 3:31 pm -      #12

    “In the movie, the two mechs pulled the entire universe and all light into a single point between their two clashing drills. This did not effect the actual mechs whatsoever. They are made of, and can produce infinite mass or energy.”

    Your conclusion does not follow from your argument.

    Of course, on its own compressing the entire universe into a singularity is still an impressive feat, but the Xeelee are nothing to be trifled with these types of things in particular. They created Inflation, after all.

  13. Private Khaos January 29, 2015 at 3:37 pm -      #13

    The Anti-Spiral was using galaxies like they were shurikens. What can these Xeelee even do?

  14. Yatsukahagi January 29, 2015 at 3:50 pm -      #14

    “The Anti-Spiral was using galaxies like they were shurikens. What can these Xeelee even do?”

    It’s worth noting the Photino Birds employed a similar tactic of flinging relativistic galaxies at the Xeelee’s Ring to bring a halt to the project. The Xeelee simply sliced the galaxies in half using cosmic strings and dully continued on their task at hand.

    I noted a few of their capabilities in post #7.

  15. Aelfinn January 29, 2015 at 4:11 pm -      #15

    ” If the Infinite Big Bang Storm isn’t the feat maximam of the show, then what exactly are we discussing here in terms of strength?”

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9N-BuufhyU

    That should let you know just how strong the Anti-Spirals are. Galaxy-busting is casual.
    =
    I recommend this fight should be “anti-spirals invade the Xeelee universe”. This way the anti-spirals don’t have the nigh-omnipotence of their home universe (that’s a thing in the show, right?) while also allowing the Xeelee to travel back in time and set some cosmic strings in motion.

  16. Sauroposeidon January 29, 2015 at 4:45 pm -      #16

    “then what exactly are we discussing here in terms of strength?”

    And individual anti-spiral is not different very much from a human being. Simon defeated their avatar in a fist fight of all things.

    But their technology of course makes them dangerous.

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=NtK5qy7HQew

    This video shows off Simon, mostly. However, we can see with the Arc-Gurren, that the weakest anti-spiral mooks, the Mugen, can not take the Space-Time Level Burst Spinning Punch. Which suggests anything which breaks reality will defeat them.

    Arc-Gurren is roughly the size of a city

    Aftewards, we see their Ashtanga. These reside in Anti-Spiral space, outside of our reality. They are the size of planets, and can actually grab and throw rocky planets at their targets. Space and time work differently in the Anti-Spiral universe.. however, we can see that they have the ability to phase out of time with us. While not shown in this clip, they do have probability altering technology. I forget what it was they were doing when it was used tough as far as shields/weapons. The Super Galaxy Gurren Lagann is the size of the moon, and attacks near future and past to knock them out of their hiding place.

    The technique to hide that the Ashtanga used is called the Random Schrodinger Warp. It manipulates multi-dimensional probability, allowing them to attack as they shift along the time axis.

    The Super Galaxy never gives them a chance to attack. Of note is that there is a planck-time coefficient in its targeting systems. This suggests to me that it can measure down to planck length, and that it can target both in real space at that level as well as along the smallest measurement of time.

    This suggests to me that even though they have these impressive abilities, they do have these physical limits. Even though they are able to hide in this vast multi-dimensional, multi-time technique.. they can’t slip past that fine of a net.

    The Super Galaxy puts out roughly the same power as a galaxy, and the Ashtanga were no match for that. So we can easily say that much power is their limit.

    The battle with the Ashtanga occurred over/near an area of ultra condenses space-time. Sort of like the opposite of the inevitable heat death our own universe will eventually succumb to, but it does for all intents and purposes the same thing in another way. The idea here is that you have to expend enough energy to go across the several, dozen, hundreds of times even the amount of space as you would ordinarily to move even a foot in relation to the physical objects around you. There is a core to this phenomena, which they did destroy. If I recall it’s strongest around the core mechanism creating it. It converts the energy that team dai-gurren was out putting in to mass somehow, allowing it to crush what is caught inside usually.

    The Anti-Spirals themselves never use any of the techniques employed by the Mugen or the Ashtanga.. but I think those are good examples of what some of their technology/abilities are below the Granzeboma / Super Granzeboma that they used in the final battle.

    The Mugen appear to be their planetary use mooks. The Hastagry and Pada, foot and hand appearing “mecha” in the same visual vein as the Ashtanga, are deployed en masse by the Ashtanga (also unshown in these clips). They appear to be on the same power scale as the Arc-Gurren. These are their main space forces. The Ashtanga are the motherships and their final line of defense before the dense sea of “space.” The Ashtanga, the sea, and their deployed craft are all only encountered in the Anti-Spiral Universe that they created. As well as their mental infinite labyrinth.

  17. Sauroposeidon January 29, 2015 at 4:48 pm -      #17

    ” This way the anti-spirals don’t have the nigh-omnipotence of their home universe (that’s a thing in the show, right?)”

    I’m not sure how they’ll behave or what their limits are in the real universe. They are afraid of a universe sized black hole, however, which will occur if they use too much spiral power. I don’t know if they themselves fear it, or just the destruction of everything everywhere when it happens, resulting in the loss of all life besides maybe their own.. but I would venture to guess that it would kill them too, although they definitely seem to think they’re the good guys, protecting everyone.

  18. Sauroposeidon January 29, 2015 at 4:51 pm -      #18

    “It’s worth noting the Photino Birds employed a similar tactic of flinging relativistic galaxies at the Xeelee’s Ring to bring a halt to the project. The Xeelee simply sliced the galaxies in half using cosmic strings and dully continued on their task at hand.”

    It is worth asking how quickly these did this. Since it happened in seconds in the show/movie.

    Also, didn’t the xelee lose to the photino birds and escape the universe?

  19. Tarbel January 29, 2015 at 5:18 pm -      #19

    Also something to bring up, the antispirals fight, fire projectiles, and throw the galaxies at massively faster than light speeds(like billions of times faster) and fire laser blasts that that travel near instantaneously in comparison.

  20. jackn8r January 29, 2015 at 5:50 pm -      #20

    ” They are afraid of a universe sized black hole, however”

    Is this a possible avenue to victory? Filling the universe with black holes?

    “It is worth asking how quickly these did this. Since it happened in seconds in the show/movie.”

    They can’t be hurling them FTL though because then we wouldn’t see them glide across like that. Unless we just assume this is for the sake of the visual effects.

    “Also, didn’t the xelee lose to the photino birds and escape the universe?”

    After time traveling and rebooting the wars between them over continuously, yes they left. They had comparable technological abilities, could hardly interact with each other, and were hugely outnumbered so the Xeelee lost.

  21. pimpmage January 29, 2015 at 5:50 pm -      #21

    “”They are made of, and can produce infinite mass or energy.”

    Your conclusion does not follow from your argument””

    The infinite mass bit was completely separate from the singularity bit. I was just stating that the singularity had absolutely no effect on the mechs. And also that they each were made of infinite mass because they mirrored eachother even after one absorbed a big bang and added its mass to itself.

  22. Yatsukahagi January 29, 2015 at 7:08 pm -      #22

    “www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9N-BuufhyU

    That should let you know just how strong the Anti-Spirals are. Galaxy-busting is casual.”

    The same could easily be claimed of the Xeelee. For instance, their Ring project required whole cosmic strings to establish the Kerr-Metric. Galaxies are as construction blocks to them.

    “www.youtube.com/watch?v=NtK5qy7HQew

    This video shows off Simon, mostly. However, we can see with the Arc-Gurren, that the weakest anti-spiral mooks, the Mugen, can not take the Space-Time Level Burst Spinning Punch. Which suggests anything which breaks reality will defeat them.”

    Unfortunately their lack of defense against ‘reality rapeage’ means the first Xeelee Nightfighter that comes across them should easily penetrate their defenses. However, as I’m aware, we’re talking ridiculously low end units here, so I am forced to admit not much of a point is made here.

    “Aftewards, we see their Ashtanga. These reside in Anti-Spiral space, outside of our reality. They are the size of planets, and can actually grab and throw rocky planets at their targets. Space and time work differently in the Anti-Spiral universe..”

    Planet cracking in the Xeeleeverse isn’t exactly special, mind. It’s a stock adventure. Any 2-bit Nightfighter can buzz through a planet, star, or even an entire solar system and desolate it, all within effectively zero time thanks to temporal tactics often employed.

    Also: could I have a source for the makeup of spacetime from the AntiSpirals universe being different than our own? I’d like to examine the quote.

    “The Super Galaxy never gives them a chance to attack. Of note is that there is a planck-time coefficient in its targeting systems. This suggests to me that it can measure down to planck length, and that it can target both in real space at that level as well as along the smallest measurement of time.”

    Oh? This is the first time I’ve ever heard of that. Anyway, the Xeelee happen to be very good with concepts such as the planck constant. They altered it to improve the speed of their computers, after all.

    “The battle with the Ashtanga occurred over/near an area of ultra condenses space-time. Sort of like the opposite of the inevitable heat death our own universe will eventually succumb to, but it does for all intents and purposes the same thing in another way. The idea here is that you have to expend enough energy to go across the several, dozen, hundreds of times even the amount of space as you would ordinarily to move even a foot in relation to the physical objects around you. There is a core to this phenomena, which they did destroy. If I recall it’s strongest around the core mechanism creating it. It converts the energy that team dai-gurren was out putting in to mass somehow, allowing it to crush what is caught inside usually.”

    Xeelee Flowers could prove themselves useful here. They provide nigh-perfect energy to mass transfer to the point where a single artifact soaked an upwards of 2.34*10^43J, protecting the human astronaut hiding behind it from any and all harm (presumably including the massive neutrino influx that follows a supernova).

    “It is worth asking how quickly these did this. Since it happened in seconds in the show/movie.”

    Pray tell why this would be relevant to the feat.

    “Also, didn’t the xelee lose to the photino birds and escape the universe?”

    So they did, but it was justified in that the Photino Birds outnumbered them on a 10:1 scale, not to mention they also had a control over dark matter rivaling that of the Xeelee’s over baryonic matter at the very least. A proper example for the AntiSpirals would be them facing a group who vastly outnumbered them and had as good control over Spiral Power as Team Dai-Gurren.

    “And also that they each were made of infinite mass because they mirrored each other even after one absorbed a big bang and added its mass to itself.”

    I’m unclear as to what you were trying to state here, but if I’m getting this right you’re saying they were made of infinite mass because on absorbed the Big Bang. If this is the case I’m afraid you’re quite wrong. Depending on your estimate of energy content, the Big Bang was either a sub-gigaton event completely overshadowed by the inflationary epoch, or an event in the region of 10^72 joules. Both of those numbers share the characteristic of being significantly smaller than Infinity.

  23. pimpmage January 29, 2015 at 7:19 pm -      #23

    “Unfortunately their lack of defense against ‘reality rapeage.”

    Lol. I know you have not watched this show before since you said that. The main characters overcome impossibility constantly. They have plot power to twist really as much as time Lords. But they apply it in a more passive sense.

    “or an event in the region of 10^72 joules. Both of those numbers share the characteristic of being significantly smaller than Infinity.”

    The speed of light is measurable is it not? The speed of light requires infinite energy to achieve right? Then how is one part of light measurable yet the other part infinite? Don’t you see the flaw in this logic?

  24. Yatsukahagi January 29, 2015 at 7:51 pm -      #24

    “Lol. I know you have not watched this show before since you said that.”

    My statement was in reference to the ‘Mugen’ Sauroposeidon brought up, not towards the actual cast of the show.

    “The main characters overcome impossibility constantly. They have plot power to twist really as much as time Lords. But they apply it in a more passive sense.”

    The statement “[they] overcome impossibility constantly” is an inherently illogical and meaningless idea, and as such can not be present in any logical debate. However, from what I’m familiar of the series they do not, in fact, do any such illogical feats, so I’ll expound on my point further if you wish to provide these apparent impossibility defying instances.

    “The speed of light is measurable is it not? The speed of light requires infinite energy to achieve right? Then how is one part of light measurable yet the other part infinite? Don’t you see the flaw in this logic?”

    Your emboldened sentence isn’t entirely true. What requires infinite energy is to accelerate a massive body from a subluminal speed to the speed of light (you may also be confusing this with what happens when you accelerate a body with rest mass to FTL velocities- an infinitely large black hole is created), but that’s beside the point.

    The case in point here is that we can only assume physics and cosmology from the TTGLverse cosmology and physics looks nothing like the Xeeleeverse. An object with rest mass (TTGL) traveling at the speed of light (transforming into STTGL) would, in fact, create an infinitely large blackhole. This was expressively not the case, implying a large difference in the mechanics of lightspeed from the Xeeleeverse (and reality) and the TTGL verse. I could point out more inconsistencies, but I’ll leave it at that.

  25. Sauroposeidon January 29, 2015 at 7:55 pm -      #25

    “They can’t be hurling them FTL though because then we wouldn’t see them glide across like that. Unless we just assume this is for the sake of the visual effects.”

    It’s their universe. We can see it because they want us to see it. Or because we want to see it. Willpower is the guiding force in TTGL.

    “After time traveling and rebooting the wars between them over continuously, yes they left. They had comparable technological abilities, could hardly interact with each other, and were hugely outnumbered so the Xeelee lost.”

    I had asked because the response to thrown galaxies made it seem like they were casually shrugging off the same kind of attack when in fact we know it was a much more epic war, and that the attack which they countered was from a foe which defeated them. It seemed like a poorly constructed response intended solely to downplay the anti-spirals and pump up the xeelee.

    “Unfortunately their lack of defense against ‘reality rapeage’ means the first Xeelee Nightfighter that comes across them should easily penetrate their defenses. However, as I’m aware, we’re talking ridiculously low end units here, so I am forced to admit not much of a point is made here.”

    There are weaker mugen. That was a combined form mugen. Usually when defeated they destroy everything around them, causing civilian casualties in populated areas. More of that morale breaking strategy used by the anti-spirals.

    “Also: could I have a source for the makeup of spacetime from the AntiSpirals universe being different than our own? I’d like to examine the quote.”

    There isn’t one. It’s just blatantly obvious, like the Super Galaxy changing sizes with out them actually ever changing size. Like the battle between the Granzeboma and the TTGL being observable by those on Earth in real time even though they were moving at FTL speeds. It’s the only logical explanation. I don’t know if they couldn’t recreate our standards exactly or if they just chose not to, but their universe acts strangely almost constantly. It’s why I am often wary of even citing anything going on in it.

    “Xeelee Flowers could prove themselves useful here”

    They sound like they do roughly the same thing. The sea had trapped roughly enough energy that the quote “it’s like a galaxy is being born” was used when they observed their power levels.

    “Pray tell why this would be relevant to the feat.”

    Because if I recall the Xeelee use more realistic, hard science tech,and relativistic means sub light speed in my book. The Anti-Spirals were throwing galaxies across enormous distances in mere seconds.

    “A proper example for the AntiSpirals would be them facing a group who vastly outnumbered them and had as good control over Spiral Power as Team Dai-Gurren.”

    At one point in the final battle the Anti-Spiral’s Granzeboma was outnumbered by a roughly 10:1 margin as every single member of the crew achieved their own Tengen Toppa version of their Ganman mecha. It still won, and hit them with the Infinity Big Bang whatever the fuck they called it.

  26. Sauroposeidon January 29, 2015 at 7:56 pm -      #26

    Actually,I lied. Lord Genome does talk about their space operating under perceived space rules or some other bullshit. Anyone remember the line or episode?

  27. Yatsukahagi January 29, 2015 at 8:08 pm -      #27

    “There are weaker mugen. That was a combined form mugen. Usually when defeated they destroy everything around them, causing civilian casualties in populated areas. More of that morale breaking strategy used by the anti-spirals.”

    Like I noted, it’s questionable that the Xeelee even possess something humans could relate to the concept of “morale”. Employing tactics designed to crush human morale likely won’t even work on the Xeelee.

    “There isn’t one. It’s just blatantly obvious, like the Super Galaxy changing sizes with out them actually ever changing size.”

    This statement does not make any sense. Changing size without changing size is as silly as being red without being red. Do we have a visual for this?

    “Like the battle between the Granzeboma and the TTGL being observable by those on Earth in real time even though they were moving at FTL speeds. It’s the only logical explanation. I don’t know if they couldn’t recreate our standards exactly or if they just chose not to, but their universe acts strangely almost constantly. It’s why I am often wary of even citing anything going on in it.”

    In which case we can therefore conclude that appealing to real life physics to claim infinite energy for the AntiSpirals is logically inconsistent and unacceptable.

    “Because if I recall the Xeelee use more realistic, hard science tech,and relativistic means sub light speed in my book. The Anti-Spirals were throwing galaxies across enormous distances in mere seconds.”

    That would be entirely irrelevant to the comparison of the two feats. When you are going faster than the speed of light, your kinetic energy is imaginary, and accelerating decreases (in as much as we have a meaningful physical concept relating to a ‘decreasing’ imaginary number) your kinetic energy. The only possible way to claim otherwise in this scenario is to appeal to the non-physics of the AntiSpirals universe, and their interaction of the Xeeleeverse and their universe thereof.

    “At one point in the final battle the Anti-Spiral’s Granzeboma was outnumbered by a roughly 10:1 margin as every single member of the crew achieved their own Tengen Toppa version of their Ganman mecha. It still won, and hit them with the Infinity Big Bang whatever the fuck they called it.”

    I was under the impression the Tengen Toppa version was vastly weaker than most of the other versions of the mecha.

  28. Sauroposeidon January 29, 2015 at 8:20 pm -      #28

    “Like I noted, it’s questionable that the Xeelee even possess something humans could relate to the concept of “morale”. Employing tactics designed to crush human morale likely won’t even work on the Xeelee.”

    Well, they had an entire universe of spiral races subjugated.

    “This statement does not make any sense. Changing size without changing size is as silly as being red without being red. Do we have a visual for this?”

    If you watch the transformations video you can see the Super Galaxy start off moon sized (it actually was posing as the Earth’s moon for a time, with the real one being hidden) in front of the Ashtangas. Quickly, planets become smaller than it. By the end of the fight it is nearly as big as the Ashtangas.

    “That would be entirely irrelevant to the comparison of the two feats. ”

    It’s relevant because if they can throw it at them faster than they can put up their defenses then it means the galaxy will hit them.

    “In which case we can therefore conclude that appealing to real life physics to claim infinite energy for the AntiSpirals is logically inconsistent and unacceptable.”

    I don’t think I ever claimed infinite energy. Otherwise they’d of caused the Spiral Nemesis already, and would have beaten it too.

    “I was under the impression the Tengen Toppa version was vastly weaker than most of the other versions of the mecha.”

    The Tengen Toppa, or Heavens Piercing versions are the galaxy sized ones. Super Galaxy is the celestial body sized one. Arc is the city sized one. Gurren Lagann is that standard mecha sized one. Lagann is a stumpy Ganman, Gurren is the size of Simon.

    Super Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann is the biggest of the lot, dwarfing even galaxies.

    Does that clear things up?

    I’m not sure what stops the Anti-Spirals from just punching the Xelee with the Super Granzeboma.. except for their own hubris, maybe.

  29. Yatsukahagi January 29, 2015 at 8:38 pm -      #29

    “Well, they had an entire universe of spiral races subjugated.”

    I don’t suppose we know anything about any of those races, do we?

    “If you watch the transformations video you can see the Super Galaxy start off moon sized (it actually was posing as the Earth’s moon for a time, with the real one being hidden) in front of the Ashtangas. Quickly, planets become smaller than it. By the end of the fight it is nearly as big as the Ashtangas.”

    This does not imply something as silly as “it changed size but it didn’t”, but rather that it was changing size and the narrative simply failed to touch on it, for reasons unknown.

    “It’s relevant because if they can throw it at them faster than they can put up their defenses then it means the galaxy will hit them.”

    No, it’s still irrelevant because the galaxy won’t necessarily deal the damage required to actual damage Xeelee units. I would also bring you FTL foreknowledge and temporal altercations that the Xeelee can (and most certainly will) provide to stop this.

    Throwing a galaxy at anything short of the Xeelee Ring is a terribly ineffective way to deal with them besides. There’s a small chance any celestial objects even come close to the singular Nightfighters, never mind them actually doing any harm. After all, these things survive being in close proximity to magnetar eruptions with temporary damage to propulsion systems.

    “I don’t think I ever claimed infinite energy. Otherwise they’d of caused the Spiral Nemesis already, and would have beaten it too.”

    Ah, that was more up pimpmage’s alley. Apologies for not drawing the distinction.

    “The Tengen Toppa, or Heavens Piercing versions are the galaxy sized ones. Super Galaxy is the celestial body sized one. Arc is the city sized one. Gurren Lagann is that standard mecha sized one. Lagann is a stumpy Ganman, Gurren is the size of Simon.

    Super Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann is the biggest of the lot, dwarfing even galaxies.

    Does that clear things up?”

    Towards the matter of size’s, certainly. I’m still unclear as to their capabilities (and by extension) significance of the Granzemboma wiping out a group of them, though.

    “I’m not sure what stops the Anti-Spirals from just punching the Xelee with the Super Granzeboma.. except for their own hubris, maybe.”

    Among other things, Xeelee ‘nest’ (per se) in supermassive blackholes. I do recall you claiming earlier that AntiSpirals were susceptible to black holes of a certain size, would this create a problem here?

  30. Sauroposeidon January 29, 2015 at 8:42 pm -      #30

    Actually, let’s just cut this down to the bone.

    The most impressive thing the Xelee ever did was The Ring, as far as I’m concerned. They used mass to rip a hole in to another universe to escape the Photino Birds.

    The Anti-Spirals created another universe (time to do such unknown), and hid in it. During their final battle they rip a hole open to their home Universe so Earth can watch the fight.

    They opened this “dimensional bypass” in seconds, after crushing the Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann with the Granzeboma.

    www.watchanimemovie.com/sub-dub/tengen-toppa-gurren-lagann-movie-2.html?url=http://play44.net/nw/tengen_toppa_gurren_lagann_movie_-_part4.mp4

    It’s very early on, with in the first 5 minutes.

    Another interesting note of size fuckery. Their homeworld they took with them,and forms the jewel on the granzeboma’s head. It’s much too large for a planet, but is effectively an earth-like planet none the less. It’s bigger because, as far I can tell, it just LOOKS better that way, so it is. Willpower seems to be the only important thing in TTGL.

  31. pimpmage January 29, 2015 at 8:42 pm -      #31

    “In which case we can therefore conclude that appealing to real life physics to claim infinite energy for the AntiSpirals is logically inconsistent and unacceptable.”

    These mechs mashed two galaxies together to make a beam that actually showed several galaxies fly out of the beam and hit the target with like 4 seconds. That beam lasted at least 20 seconds real time. What have you to say about them creating a couple dozen galaxies from the mass of two galaxies? They get like 1200% increase in output when they only put used two galaxies to preform this. You know what this means? They can create energy from nothing.

  32. Sauroposeidon January 29, 2015 at 8:52 pm -      #32

    “Among other things, Xeelee ‘nest’ (per se) in supermassive blackholes. I do recall you claiming earlier that AntiSpirals were susceptible to black holes of a certain size, would this create a problem here?”

    Considering the Infinity Big Bang attack was caused by creating a singularity via mass-smooshing.. probably not. The black hole they’re afraid of would consume an entire universe.

    “No, it’s still irrelevant because the galaxy won’t necessarily deal the damage required to actual damage Xeelee units. I would also bring you FTL foreknowledge and temporal altercations that the Xeelee can (and most certainly will) provide to stop this.”

    If the xeelee aren’t fast enough to get out of the way of thousands of stars colliding in to them as the galaxy buzzsaws through their area in a matter of seconds I think it might matter.

    Although.. the Tengen Toppa Twin Vulcan did grab two galaxies thrown by the Granzeboma with its “bare hands.”

    Just sitting here watching the fight.. the Tengen Toppa Yoko W Tank spams galaxy ending beams by the dozens every second.. and the Anti-Spirals handled that. So not only is galaxy throwing more of their “vulcan attack” (to steal a term from SRW fandom for weakest ranged attack), they also have impressive physical defensive characteristics. They’re also fucking fast, considering that they were able to stop Tengen Toppa Ainzaurus.. who’s incredible speed blurs even at their scale.

  33. Yatsukahagi January 29, 2015 at 8:56 pm -      #33

    “The most impressive thing the Xelee ever did was The Ring, as far as I’m concerned. They used mass to rip a hole in to another universe to escape the Photino Birds.”

    It was certainly the high watermark of Xeelee raw industrial capability, but I’d contest that claim. The flat out most impressive thing we’ve seen from the Xeelee is the antiXeelee (all of it, in essence) and the protoXeelee creating inflation. It’s also worth nothing that a large group of races that eventually became the Xeelee created the lithium spike, the imbalance between matter and antimatter, and even the most basic Xeelee technology modifies the laws of physics.

    “These mechs mashed two galaxies together to make a beam that actually showed several galaxies fly out of the beam and hit the target with like 4 seconds. That beam lasted at least 20 seconds real time. What have you to say about them creating a couple dozen galaxies from the mass of two galaxies? They get like 1200% increase in output when they only put used two galaxies to preform this. You know what this means? They can create energy from nothing.”

    Or, it means they separated the two galaxies into a number of other galaxies. Or, the visuals were simply inconsistent. That is most likely the best conclusion given everything that points to Gainax simply trying to make things look cool rather than worry about the consistency of the show. Which is a good thing in a story, but not always acceptable during a versus debate.

    I’m also unsure what you think your paragraph here has to do with the sentence you quoted.

  34. Yatsukahagi January 29, 2015 at 9:03 pm -      #34

    “Considering the Infinity Big Bang attack was caused by creating a singularity via mass-smooshing.. probably not. The black hole they’re afraid of would consume an entire universe.”

    And is not that exactly what the Infinity Big Bang attack did?

    “If the xeelee aren’t fast enough to get out of the way of thousands of stars colliding in to them as the galaxy buzzsaws through their area in a matter of seconds I think it might matter.”

    Here’s the thing: stars are tiny and space is quite large. The chance of colliding with a star is minuscule. Assuming that the average diameter of a star is that of Sol, and that an average galaxy will have 100 billion stars, we get the figure that galactic space is, on average, 3.5*10^-23 percent star, by volume.

    Even failing that, XCM has been shown to laugh of supernovae even in small quantities. It probably won’t even be scratched if a star hits it.

  35. pimpmage January 29, 2015 at 9:08 pm -      #35

    “Or, it means they separated the two galaxies into a number of other galaxies. Or, the visuals were simply inconsistent. That is most likely the best conclusion given everything that points to Gainax simply trying to make things look cool rather than worry about the consistency of the show. Which is a good thing in a story, but not always acceptable during a versus debate.”

    The show is the only proof of things existing. This story does not exist in manga form or id agree with you. But you cannot just disallow visual feats because you don’t think its realistic.

    “I’m also unsure what you think your paragraph here has to do with the sentence you quoted.”

    Because they created energy from nothing. Just because you don’t like it does not delegitimize it.

    “Here’s the thing: stars are tiny and space is quite large. The chance of colliding with a star is minuscule. Assuming that the average diameter of a star is that of Sol, and that an average galaxy will have 100 billion stars, we get the figure that galactic space is, on average, 3.5*10^-23 percent star, by volume.”

    Except when you can leap through galaxies and hit them with lasers that explode them entirely. You cannot hope to dodge that.

  36. Yatsukahagi January 29, 2015 at 9:20 pm -      #36

    “The show is the only proof of things existing. This story does not exist in manga form or id agree with you. But you cannot just disallow visual feats because you don’t think its realistic.”

    I’m not disallowing feats because “I don’t think they’re realistic”, I’m saying that Gainax obviously wasn’t dealing with this realistically, so we should take cautionary steps towards what they do and what obviously doesn’t make any sense.

    “Because they created energy from nothing. Just because you don’t like it does not delegitimize it.”

    Their apparent ability to create energy ex nihilio tells us far less than you think when it comes to providing infinite energy. Or rather, it would, if we were discussing something remotely based on normal physics. Apparently we are currently on the topic of a different spacetime where the laws of physics are different enough that the cornerstone of your original argument no longer holds up.

    “Except when you can leap through galaxies and hit them with lasers that explode them entirely. You cannot hope to dodge that.”

    The Xeelee can dodge the latter via temporal foreknowledge and using FTL to jump out of the galaxy (and by proxy travel back in time back to when the same Nightfighter was still stationed in the galaxy). Or just chill out in a supermassive blackhole as it eats up the damage. I’m not sure what “leaping through galaxies” is supposed to represent.

  37. pimpmage January 29, 2015 at 9:32 pm -      #37

    “I’m saying that Gainax obviously wasn’t dealing with this realistically, so we should take cautionary steps towards what they do and what obviously doesn’t make any sense.”

    No. Nothing about this show is inherently realistic. The show deals with cosmic entities mirroring our universe. It contains arrangements of matter that look exactly like a real galaxy. That is telling me it is based on our reality but with a fictional twist. Its FICTION. Fiction can be as wacky as it fucking wants dude. Its IN.

    “The Xeelee can dodge the latter via temporal foreknowledge and using FTL to jump out of the galaxy (and by proxy travel back in time back to when the same Nightfighter was still stationed in the galaxy).

    Ok, are they going to dodge getting pulled into a universal singularity by jumping between galaxies? Not gonna work.

    “Or just chill out in a supermassive blackhole as it eats up the damage. I’m not sure what “leaping through galaxies” is supposed to represent.”

    That supermassive black hole would itself be pulled into a universal singularity. And that leaping through galaxies bit was from the videos. One mech was punched or thrown through dozens of galaxies in the span of seconds. That means possibly billions of times faster than light is what these guys can move.

  38. Sauroposeidon January 29, 2015 at 9:35 pm -      #38

    “And is not that exactly what the Infinity Big Bang attack did?”

    No. I think theoretically, virtually any decent sized black hole creates a singularity.

    “visuals were simply inconsistent”

    They create a singularity. Equate it to a big bang, and then generate galaxies from its wake.. It’s a big bang, or of equal energy to one so it doesn’t really matter.

    “It was certainly the high watermark of Xeelee raw industrial capability, but I’d contest that claim. The flat out most impressive thing we’ve seen from the Xeelee is the antiXeelee (all of it, in essence) and the protoXeelee creating inflation. It’s also worth nothing that a large group of races that eventually became the Xeelee created the lithium spike, the imbalance between matter and antimatter, and even the most basic Xeelee technology modifies the laws of physics.”

    We’d need quotes. Ripping a hole into another universe still seems more impressive to me than the antimatter business.

    And again.. everything the Xeelee do, the Anti-Spirals do faster. They also just seem to do it better.

    “Here’s the thing: stars are tiny and space is quite large. The chance of colliding with a star is minuscule.”

    The buzzsaw motion removes that chance. The galaxy would be wrecked anyhow by the gravity fucking with everything.

    One supernova is not the same as having thousands if not millions of stars colliding with you essentially instantly. Exploding or not. A super nova is nothing compared to the Galaxy Shuriken attack. Not that this is that important. They could just reach over and crush the Xeelee’s galaxies at the start of the fight with an attack made from the future, it seems.

    So.. again.. what stops the Xeelee from just getting punched out?

  39. Tarbel January 29, 2015 at 9:48 pm -      #39

    Just to clarify, throwing galaxies, while it is an attack, more so demonstrates the magnitude of the antispirals strength and speed. The galaxies missing the xeelee would not matter as the antispirals still have physical attacks, lasers, drill tentacles, and missiles that come in sizes which can cover portions of a galaxy.


    For the infinity big bang storm, it was stated that the energy in the attack rivaled the energy of the big bang, which of course spawned mass and space from nothing.


    Tengan toppa gurren lagann is ten million light years tall. The distance between the antispirals mech and TTGL is usually,if not more than, two TTGL body lengths. This distance of 20million light years is usually covered in one second or so. There are 31,536,000 seconds in a year. This means 20 million times 30 million is the number of times the galaxy sized me has are FTL, at least.


    Also what kind of distances are the xeelee capable of foreseeing attacks because the antispirals can launch attacks from anywhere in the universe and have some level of omniscience in where they can keep track of every spiral races exact population count everywhere in the universe.

  40. Yatsukahagi January 29, 2015 at 10:04 pm -      #40

    “No. Nothing about this show is inherently realistic. The show deals with cosmic entities mirroring our universe. It contains arrangements of matter that look exactly like a real galaxy. That is telling me it is based on our reality but with a fictional twist. Its FICTION. Fiction can be as wacky as it fucking wants dude. Its IN.”

    My apologies, I meant “consistent”.

    “Ok, are they going to dodge getting pulled into a universal singularity by jumping between galaxies? Not gonna work.”

    Your comment didn’t imply you were talking about the singularity, but that’s fine. How would this deal with the antiXeelee, anyway? It’s a universe spanning consciousness embedded on the quantum foam that’s implied to be moving backwards in time, responsible for upkeeping the Xeelee’s Closed Timelike Curve. Unless you can alter or destroy it, the Xeelee are effectively invincible in any point during the universe:

    “At last the Project was complete.
    The migration alone had taken a million years. While the night-dark Xeelee fleets
    streamed steadily through Bolder’s Ring and disappeared into the folded Kerr-metric region,
    other races flared in the outer darkness, like candles. Freighters the size of moons patrolled
    the space around the Ring, their crimson starbreaker beams dispersing the Galaxy
    remnants that still tumbled towards the Ring like blue-shifted moths.
    But now it was over. The Ring, its function fulfilled, sparkled like a jewel in its nest of
    stars. And the Universe that had been modified by the Xeelee was all but empty of them.
    Call it the antiXeelee.
    It was… large. Its lofty emotions could be described in human terms only by analogy.
    Nevertheless—
    The antiXeelee looked on its completed works, and was satisfied.
    Its awareness spread across light years. Shining matter littered the Universe like froth on
    a deep, dark ocean; the Xeelee had come, built fine castles of that froth, and had now
    departed, as if lifting into the air. Soon the shining stuff itself would begin to decay, and
    already the antiXeelee could detect the flexing muscles of the creatures of that dark ocean
    below. It felt something like contentment at the thought that its siblings were beyond the
    reach of those… others.
    Now the antiXeelee turned to its last task. Seed pods, spinning cubes as large as
    worlds, were scattered everywhere in an orderly array, millions of them dispersed over the
    unraveling curve of space. The antiXeelee ran metaphorical fingers over each of the pods
    and over what lay within: beings with closed eyes, ships with folded wings, refined
    reflections of the antiXeelee itself.
    The work was good. And now it was ready.
    …There was a discontinuity. All over the Universe the pods vanished like soap bubbles.
    The seed pods’ long journey back through time had begun. They would emerge a mere
    hundred thousand years after the singularity itself, at the moment when the temperature of
    the cosmos had cooled sufficiently for matter and radiation to become decoupled—so that
    the infant Universe became suddenly transparent, as if with a clash of cymbals.
    Then the creatures within would unfold their limbs, and the long Project of the Xeelee
    would begin.
    Eventually the Project would lead to the development of the seed pods, the spawning of
    the antiXeelee itself; and so the circle would be closed. There was, of course, no paradox
    about this causal loop; although—for amusement—the antiXeelee had once studied a toycreature,
    a human from whose viewpoint such events had seemed not merely paradoxical but impossible.”~Secret History (Vacuum Diagrams)

    “And that leaping through galaxies bit was from the videos. One mech was punched or thrown through dozens of galaxies in the span of seconds. That means possibly billions of times faster than light is what these guys can move.”

    Throw through as in… he was smaller than galaxies and he was literally suplexed through them, or he was thrown into a group of galaxies, and they hit him? Either way it’s not exactly something a Nightfighter couldn’t handle.

    “We’d need quotes. Ripping a hole into another universe still seems more impressive to me than the antimatter business.”

    “There was no place. There was no time. A human observer would have recognized nothing here:
    no mass, energy, or force. There was only a rolling, random froth whose fragmented geometry
    constantly changed. Even causality was a foolish dream.

    The orderly spacetime with which humans were familiar was suffused with vacuum energy, out
    of which virtual particles, electrons and quarks, would fizz into existence, and then scatter or
    annihilate, their brief walks upon the stage governed by quantum uncertainty. In this
    extraordinary place whole universes bubbled out of the froth, to expand and dissipate, or to
    collapse in a despairing flare.


    This chaotic cavalcade of possibilities, this place of nonbeing where whole universes clustered
    in reefs of foamy spindrift, was suffused by a light beyond light. But even in this cauldron of
    strangeness there was life. Even here there was mind.

    Call them monads.


    This would be the label given them by Commissary Nilis, when he deduced their existence. But
    the name had much deeper roots.

    In the seventeenth century the German mathematician Gottfried Leibniz had imagined that
    reality was constructed from pseudo-objects that owed their existence solely to their relation to
    each other. In his idea of the “monad,” Leibniz had intuited something of the truth of the
    creatures who infested this domain. They existed, they communicated, they enjoyed a richness of
    experience and community. And yet “they” didn’t exist in themselves; it was only their
    relationships to each other that defined their own abstract entities.

    No other form of life was possible in this fractured place.

    Long ago they had attended the birth of a universe.

    It had come from a similar cauldron of realities, a single bubble plucked out of the spindrift. As
    the baby universe had expanded and cooled, the monads had remained with it. Immanent in the
    new cosmos, they suffused it, surrounded it. Time to them was not as experienced by the
    universe’s swarming inhabitants; their perception was like the reality dust of configuration space,
    perhaps.

    But once its reality had congealed, once the supracosmic froth had cooled, the monads were
    forced into dormancy. Wrapped up in protective knots of spacetime, they dreamed away the long
    history of their universe, with all its empires and wars, its tragedies and triumphs. It had been the
    usual story—and yet it was a unique story, for no two universes were ever quite the same. And
    something of this long saga would always be stored in the monads’ dreaming.

    The universe aged, as all things must; within, time grew impossibly long and space stretched
    impossibly thin. At last the fabric of the universe sighed and broke—and a bubble of a higher
    reality spontaneously emerged, a recurrence of the no-place where time and distance had no
    meaning. Just as the universe had once been spawned from chaos, so this droplet of chaos was
    now born from the failing stuff of the universe. Everything was cyclic.


    And in this bubble, where the freezing of spacetime was undone, the monads awoke again; in their supracosmic froth, they were once more briefly alive.

    The monads considered the bubbling foam around them.

    They dug into a reef of spindrift, selected a tangle of possibilities, picked out one evanescent
    cosmic jewel. This one—yes. They closed around it, as if warmed by its glow of potentialities.


    And, embedding themselves in its structure, they prepared to shape it. The monads enriched the
    seedling universe with ineffable qualities whose existence few of its inhabitants would even
    guess at.

    The new universe, for all its beauty, was featureless, symmetrical—but unstable, like a sword
    standing on its point. Even the monads could not control how that primordial symmetry would be
    broken, which destiny, of an uncountable number of possibilities, would be selected.

    Which was, of course, the joy of it.

    For the inhabitants of this new cosmos, it began with a singularity: a moment when time began,
    when space was born. But for the monads, as their chaotic Ur-reality froze out once more into a
    rigid smoothness, the singularity was an end: for them, the story was already over. Encased in
    orderly, frozen spacetime, they would slumber through the long ages, until this universe in turn
    grew old and spawned new fragments of chaos, and they could wake again.

    But all that lay far in the future.


    There was a breathless instant. The sword toppled. Time flowed, like water gushing from a tap.

    History began.

    The balancing sword tipped and fell. The primordial simplicity of the new universe was lost.
    From the broken symmetry of a once-unified physics, two forces emerged: gravity, and a force
    humans would call the GUT force—”GUT” for Grand Unified Theory, a combination of
    electromagnetic and nuclear forces. The separating-out of the forces was a phase change, like
    water freezing to ice, and it released energy that immediately fed the expansion of the seedling
    universe.


    Gravity’s fist immediately clenched, crushing knots of energy and matter into black holes. It was
    in the black holes’ paradoxical hearts that the sleeping monads huddled. But the black holes were
    embedded in a new, unfolding spacetime: three dimensions of space and one of time, an orderly
    structure that congealed quickly out of the primitive chaos.

    Yet there were flaws. The freezing-out had begun spontaneously in many different places, like
    ice crystals growing on a cold window. Where the crystals met and merged, discontinuities
    formed. Because the spacetime was three-dimensional, these defects were born in two
    dimensions, as planes and sheets—or one dimension, as lines of concentrated energy scribbled
    across spacetime’s spreading face—or no dimensions at all, simple points.


    Suddenly the universe was filled with these defects; it was a box stuffed with ribbons and strings
    and buttons.

    And the defects were not inert. Propagating wildly, they collided, combined, and interacted. A
    migrating point defect could trace out a line; a shifting line could trace out a plane; where two
    planes crossed, a line was formed, to make more planes and lines. Feedback loops of creation
    and destruction were quickly established, in a kind of spacetime chemistry. There was a time of
    wild scribbling.

    Most of these sketches died as quickly as they were formed. But as the networks of interactions
    grew in complexity, another kind of phase shift was reached, a threshold beyond which certain
    closed loops of interactions emerged—loops which promoted the growth of other structures like
    themselves. This was autocatalysis, the tendency for a structure emerging from a richly
    connected network to encourage the growth of itself, or copies of itself. And some of these loops
    happened to be stable, immune to small perturbations. This was homeostasis, stability through feedback.

    Thus, through autocatalysis and homeostasis working on the flaws of the young spacetime, an
    increasingly complex hierarchy of self-sustaining structures emerged. All these tangled knots
    were machines, fundamentally, heat engines feeding off the flow of energy through the universe.
    And the black holes, drifting through this churning soup, provided additional points of structure,
    seeds around which the little cycling structures could concentrate. In the new possibilities opened
    up by closeness, still more complex aggregates grew: simple machines gathered into cooperative
    “cells,” and the cells gathered into colonial “organisms” and ultimately multicelled “creatures”…

    It was, of course, life. All this had emerged from nothing.


    In this universe it would always be this way: structures spontaneously complexified, and
    stability emerged from fundamental properties of the networks—any networks, even such
    exotica as networks of intersecting spacetime defects. Order emerging for free: it was wonderful.
    But it need not have been this way.

    Deep in the pinprick gravity wells of the primordial black holes, the feeding began.

    The universe inhabited by the spacetime-defect fauna was quite unlike that of humans. There
    was no light, for instance, for the electromagnetic force which governed light’s propagation had
    yet to decouple from the GUT superforce. But the spacetime-flaw creatures, huddled around
    their black holes, could “see” by the deep glow of the gravity waves that crisscrossed the
    growing cosmos.

    To them, of course, it had always been this way; to them the sky was beautiful.

    The basis of all life in this age was the chemistry of spacetime defects, an interconnected
    geometric churning of points and lines and planes. Most life-forms were built up of “cells,”
    tightly interconnected, and very stable. But more complex creatures, built from aggregates of
    these cells, were not quite so stable. They were capable of variation, one generation to the next.

    And where there is variation, selection can operate.

    On some of the black-hole “worlds,” fantastic ecologies developed: there were birds with wings
    of spacetime, and spiders with arms of cosmic string, even fish that swam deep in the twisted
    hearts of the black holes. “Plants” passively fed on energy flows, like the twisting of space at the
    event horizons of the black holes, and “animals,” exploiters, fed on those synthesizers in turn—
    and other predators fed onthem. Everywhere there was coevolution, as species adapted together
    in conflict or cooperation: “plants” and “animals,” “flowers” and “insects,” parasites and hosts,
    predators and prey. Some of this—the duets of synthesizers and exploiters, for instance—had
    echoes in the ecologies with which humans were familiar. But there were forms like nothing in
    human experience.

    The creatures of one black hole “world” differed from the inhabitants of another as much as
    humans would differ from, say, Silver Ghosts. But just as humans and Ghosts were both
    creatures of baryonic matter who emerged on rocky planets, so the inhabitants of this age,
    dominated by its own dense physics, had certain features in common.

    All life-forms must reproduce. Every parent must store information, a genotype, to pass on to its
    offspring. From this data is constructed a phenotype, the child’s physical expression of that
    information—its “body.”

    In this crowded young universe the most obvious way to transmit such information was through
    extended quantum structures. Quantum mechanics allowed for the long-range correlation of
    particles: once particles had been in contact, they were never truly separated, and would always
    share information.

    Infants were budded, unformed, from parents. But each child was born without a genotype. It
    was unformed, a blank canvas. A mother would read off her own genotype, and send it to her
    newborn daughter—by touch, by gravity waves. In the process, depending on the species, the
    mother’s data might be mixed with that of other “parents.”

    But there was a catch. This was a quantum process. The uncertainty principle dictated that it was
    impossible to clone quantum information: it could be swapped around, but not copied. For the
    daughter to be born, the mother’s genotype had to be destroyed. Every birth required a death.

    To human eyes this would seem tragic; but humans worked on different assumptions. To the
    spacetime fauna, life was rich and wonderful, and the interlinking of birth and death the most
    wonderful thing of all.

    As consciousness arose, the first songs ever sung centered on the exquisite beauty of
    necrogenesis.

    As the young universe unfolded, some of the spacetime-chemistry races developed high
    technologies. They ventured from their home “worlds,” and came into contact with each other.
    Strange empires were spun across galaxies of black holes. Terrible wars were fought.

    Out of the debris of war, the survivors groped their way to a culture that was, if not unified, at
    least peaceable. A multispecies federation established itself. Under its benevolent guidance new
    merged cultures propagated, new symbiotic ecologies arose. The endless enrichment of life
    continued. The inhabitants of this golden time even studied their own origins in the brief
    moments of the singularity. They speculated about what might have triggered that mighty
    detonation, and whether any conscious intent might have lain behind it.

    Time stretched and history deepened.

    It was when the universe was very old indeed—ten billion times as old as it had been at the
    moment of the breaking of its primordial symmetry—-that disaster struck.


    Light itself did not yet exist, and yet lightspeed was embedded in this universe.

    At any given moment, only a finite time had passed since the singularity, and an object traveling
    at lightspeed could have traversed only part of the span of the cosmos. Domains limited by
    lightspeed travel were the effective “universes” of their inhabitants, for the cosmos was too
    young for any signal to have been received from beyond their boundaries. But as the universe
    aged, so signals propagated further—and domains which had been separated since the first
    instant, domains which could have had no effect on each other before, were able to come into
    contact.

    And as they overlapped, life-forms crossed from one domain into another.

    For the federation, the creatures that suddenly came hurtling out of infinity were the stuff of
    nightmare. These invaders came from a place where the laws of physics were subtly different:
    the symmetry-breaking which had split gravity from the GUT superforce had occurred
    differently in different domains, for they had not been in causal contact at the time. That
    difference drove a divergence of culture, of values. The federation valued its hard-won
    prosperity, peace, and the slow accumulation of knowledge. The invaders, following their own
    peculiar imperatives, were intent only on destruction, and fueling their own continuing
    expansion. It was like an invasion from a parallel universe. Rapprochement was impossible.

    The invaders came from all around the federation’s lightspeed horizon. Reluctantly, the
    federation sought to defend itself, but a habit of peace had been cultivated for too long;
    everywhere the federation fell back. It seemed extinction was inevitable.

    But one individual found a dreadful alternative.

    Just as the cosmos had gone through a phase change when gravity had separated from the GUT
    force, so more phase changes were possible. The GUT force itself could be induced to dissociate
    further. The energy released would be catastrophic, unstoppable, universal—but, crucially, it
    would feed a new burst of universal expansion.


    The homelands of the invaders would be pushed back beyond the lightspeed horizon.

    But much of the federation would be scattered too. And, worse, a universe governed by a new
    combination of physical forces would not be the same as that in which the spacetime creatures
    had evolved. It would be unknowable, perhaps unsurvivable.


    It was a terrible dilemma. Even the federation was unwilling to accept the responsibility to
    remake the universe itself. But the invaders encroached, growing more ravenous, more
    destructive, as they approached the federation’s rich and ancient heart. In the end there was only
    one choice.


    A switch was thrown.

    A wall of devastation burned at lightspeed across the cosmos. In its wake the very laws of
    physics changed; everything it touched was transformed.

    The invaders were devastated.

    The primordial black holes survived—and, by huddling close to them, so did some
    representatives of the federation.

    But the federation’s scientists had not anticipated how long this great surge of growth would
    continue. With the domain war long won, the mighty cosmic expansion continued, at rates
    unparalleled in the universe’s history. Ultimately, it would last sixty times the age of the universe
    at its inception, and it would expand the federation’s corner of spacetime by a trillion, times a
    trillion, times a trillion, times a trillion. Human scientists, detecting the traces of this great burst
    of “inflation,” the single worst catastrophe in the universe’s long history, would always wonder
    what had triggered it. Few ever guessed it was the outcome of a runaway accident triggered by
    war.

    As the epochal storm continued the survivors of the federation huddled, folding their wings of
    spacetime flaws over themselves. When the gale at last passed, the survivors emerged into a new,
    chill cosmos. So much time had passed that they had changed utterly, and forgotten who they were,
    where they had come from. But they were heirs of a universe grown impossibly huge—a
    universe all of ten centimeters across.

    The monstrous swelling of the age of inflation was over.


    The universe continued to expand, more sedately than before, but relentlessly. Still phase
    changes occurred, as the merged forces broke up further, and with each loss of symmetry more
    energy was injected into the expansion.


    The release of the electromagnetic force from its prison of symmetry was particularly
    spectacular, for suddenly it was possible for light to exist. The universe lit up in a tremendous
    flash—and space filled immediately with a bath of searing radiation. So energetically dense was
    this first exuberant glow that it continually coalesced into specks of matter—quarks and
    antiquarks, electrons and positrons—that would almost as rapidly annihilate each other. There
    were no atoms yet, though, no molecules. Indeed, temperatures were too high for the quarks to
    combine into anything as sedate as a proton.


    The primordial black holes, surviving from the age of spacetime chemistry, again provided some
    structure in this seething chaos; passing through the glowing soup they would gather clusters of
    quarks or anti-quarks. Though the quarks themselves continually melted away, the structure of
    these clusters persisted; and in those structures were encoded information. Interactions became
    complex. Networks and loops of reactions formed, some were reinforced by feedback loops.

    Certain consequences inevitably followed. For this universe it was already an old story—but it
    was a new generation of life.

    But this was a universe of division. For every particle of matter created there was an antimatter
    twin. If they met they would mutually annihilate immediately. It was only chance local
    concentrations of matter, or antimatter, that enabled any structures to form at all.


    In these intertwined worlds of matter and antimatter, parallel societies formed. Never able to
    touch, able to watch each other only from afar, they nevertheless made contact, exchanging
    information and images, science and art, reciprocally influencing each other at every stage.
    Mirror-image cultures evolved, each seeking to ape the achievements of the unreachable other.
    There were wars too, but these were always so devastating for both sides that mutual deterrence
    became the only possible option. Even a few impossible, unrequitable parity-spanning love
    affairs were thrown up.


    The fundamental division of the world was seen as essentially tragic, and inspired many stories.

    The various matter species, meanwhile, were not the only inhabitants of this ferocious age. They
    shared their radiation bath with much more ancient life-forms. To the survivors of the spacetime-
    chemistry federation, this age of an endless radiation storm was cold, chill, empty, the spacetime
    defects which characterized their kind scattered and stretched to infinity. But survive they had.
    Slowly they moved out of their arks and sought new ways to live.


    Among the cultures of matter and antimatter, clinging to their evanescent quark-gluon islands in
    a sea of radiation, a crisis approached.


    As the universe cooled, the rate of production of quarks and anti-quarks from the radiation soup
    inevitably slowed—but the mutual destruction of the particles continued at a constant rate.
    Scientists on each side of the parity barrier foresaw a time when no more quarks would coalesce
    —and then, inevitably,all particles of matter would be annihilated, as would the precisely equal
    number of particles of antimatter, leaving a universe filled with nothing but featureless,
    reddening light. It would mean extinction for their kinds of life; it was hardly a satisfactory
    prospect.

    Slowly but surely, plans were drawn up to fix this bug in the universe. At last an empire of
    matter-cluster creatures discovered that it was possible to meddle with the fundamental
    bookkeeping of the cosmos.

    Human scientists would express much of their physics in terms of symmetries: the conservation
    of energy, for instance, was really a kind of symmetry. And humans would always believe that a
    certain symmetry of a combination of electrical charge, left- and right-handedness, and the flow
    of time could never be violated. But now quark-gluon scientists dug deep into an ancient black
    hole, which had decayed to expose the singularity at its heart. The singularity was like a wall in
    the universe—and by reaching through this wall the quark scientists found a way to violate the
    most fundamental symmetry of all.


    The imbalance they induced was subtle: for every thirty million antimatter particles, thirty
    million and one matter particles would be formed—and when they annihilated, that one spare
    matter particle would survive.

    The immediate consequence was inevitable. When the antimatter cultures learned they were to
    be extinguished while their counterparts of matter would linger on, there was a final, devastating
    war; fleets of opposing parity annihilated each other in a bonfire of possibilities.

    Enough of the matter cultures survived to carry through their program. But it was an anguished
    victory; even for the victors only a fraction could survive.


    Another metaphorical switch was pulled.

    Across the cooling cosmos, the mutual annihilation continued to its conclusion. When the storm
    of co-destruction ceased, when all the antimatter was gone, there was a trace of matter left over.
    Another mystery was left for the human scientists of the future, who would always wonder at the
    baffling existence of an excess of matter over antimatter.

    Yet again the universe had passed through a transition; yet again a generation of life had
    vanished, leaving only scattered survivors, and the ruins of vanished and forgotten civilizations.
    For its few remaining inhabitants the universe now seemed a very old place indeed, old and
    bloated, cool and dark.


    Since the singularity, one millionth of a second had passed.

    The universe was expanding at half the speed of light. It was small and ferociously dense, still
    many times as dense as an atomic nucleus.


    At least quarks were stable now. But in this cannonball of a cosmos the matter familiar to
    humans, composed of protons and neutrons—composites of quarks, stuck together by gluons—
    could not yet exist. There were certainly no nuclei, no atoms. Instead, space was filled with a
    soup of quarks, gluons and leptons, light particles like electrons and neutrinos. It was a
    “quagma,” a magma of quarks, like one immense proton.


    As time wore inexorably away, new forms of life rose in the new conditions.


    The now-stable quarks were able to combine into large assemblies; and as these assemblies
    complexified and interacted, the usual processes of autocatalysis and feedback began. The black
    holes were still there to provide structure, but larger clumps of matter also served as a stratum for
    life’s new adventures, and there was energy for free in the radiation bath that still filled the
    universe.

    Among the new kinds, ancient strategies revived. There were exploiters and synthesizers.
    “Plants” fueled their growth with radiant energy—but there were no stars yet, no suns; rather the
    whole sky glowed. “Animals” evolved to feed off these synthesizers, and learned to hunt each
    other.


    As always the variation in life-forms across the cosmos was extraordinarily wide, but most
    shared certain basics of their physical design. Almost all of them stored information about
    themselves in their own complicated structures, rather than in an internal genetic data store, as
    humans one day would: for these creatures their genotypewas their phenotype, as if they were
    made wholly of DNA.

    Their way of communicating would have seemed ferocious to a human. A speaker would
    modify its listener’s memories directly, by firing quagma pellets into them; it was a message
    carried in a spray of bullets. They even reproduced rather like DNA molecules. They opened out
    their structures, like flowers unfolding, and constructed a mirror-image version of themselves by attracting raw material from the surrounding soup of loose quarks. These “quagmites” were not
    quite like the creatures humans would one day encounter in the Galaxy’s Core, but they were
    their remote ancestors.

    There was little in common in the physical basis of human and quagmite; a quagmite was not
    much bigger than an atomic nucleus. But the largest of the quagma creatures were composed of a
    similar number of particles to the atoms which would comprise a human body. So humans and
    quagmites were comparable in internal complexity, and their inner lives shared a similar
    richness. Many humans would have appreciated the best quagmite poetry—if they could have
    survived being bombarded by it.

    Meanwhile, the quagmite creatures shared their universe with older forms of life.

    The ancient spacetime-chemistry creatures, having survived yet another cosmic transition,
    gradually found ways to accommodate themselves to the latest climate, even though to them it
    was cold and dark and dead. In their heyday there had been no “matter” in the normal sense. But
    now they found they could usefully form symbiotic relationships with creatures formed of
    condensate matter: extended structures locked into a single quantum state. A new kind of being
    ventured cautiously through the light-filled spaces, like insects with “bodies” of condensate and
    “wings” of spacetime defects. It was the formation of a new kind of ecology, emerging from
    fragments of the old and new. But symbiosis and the construction of composite creatures from
    lesser components were eternal tactics for life, eternal ways of surviving changed conditions.

    In the unimaginably far future humans would call the much-evolved descendants of these
    composite forms “Xeelee.”

    The proto-Xeelee were, meanwhile, aware of another species of matter born out of this turbulent
    broth. This would one day be called dark matter by human scientists, for it would bond with
    other types of matter only loosely, through gravity and the weakest nuclear force. There was a
    whole hierarchy of particles of this stuff, even a sort of chemistry. This faint stuff passed through
    the quark-cluster cities and the nests of the proto-Xeelee alike as if they didn’t exist. But it was
    there—and, like the Xeelee, this dark matter was going to be around for good.

    As the endless expansion continued, the quagmites swarmed through their quagma broth,
    fighting and loving and dying. The oldest of them told their legends of the singularity. The young
    scoffed, but listened in secret awe.


    It seemed to the quagmites that the ages that had preceded their own had been impossibly brief,
    a mere flash in the afterglow of the singularity. But it was a common error. The pace of life
    scaled to temperature: if you lived hot, you lived fast. The quagmites did not suspect that the
    creatures who had inhabited earlier, warmer ages had crammed just as many experiences—just
    as much “life”—into their brief instants of time. As the universe expanded, every generation,
    living slower than the last, saw only a flash of heat and light behind it, nothing but a cold dark
    tunnel ahead—-and each generation thought that it was only now that a rich life was possible.

    The comfortable era of the quagmites couldn’t last forever; nothing ever did. It was when the
    universe was thirty times older than it was at the end of the matter-antimatter conflict that the
    first signs of the quagmites’ final disaster were detected.

    The trouble started in the most innocuous, most mundane of ways: problems with waste.

    For many quagmite kinds, eliminated waste was in the form of compressed matter, quarks and
    gluons wadded together into baryons—protons and neutrons. You could even find a few simple
    nuclei, if you dug around in there. But the universe was still too hot for such structures to be
    stable long, and the waste decayed quickly, returning its substance to the wider quagma bath.

    Now, as the universe cooled, things changed. The mess of sticky proton-neutron cack simply
    wouldn’t dissolve as readily as it once had. Great clumps of it clung together, stubbornly
    resistant, and had to be broken up to release their constituent quarks. But the energy expenditure
    was huge.


    Soon this grew to be an overwhelming burden, the primary task of civilizations. Citizens voiced
    concerns; autocrats issued commands; angry votes were taken on councils. There were even wars
    over waste dumping. But the problem only got worse.

    And, gradually, the dread truth was revealed.
    The cooling universe was approaching another transition point, another phase change. The
    ambient temperature, steadily falling, would soon be too low to force the baryons to break up—
    -and the process of combination would be one way. Soon all the quarks and gluons, the
    fundamental building blocks of life, would be locked up inside baryons.


    The trend was inescapable, its conclusion staggering: this extraordinary implosion would wither
    the most bright, the most beautiful of the quagmite ecologies, and nobody would be left even to
    mourn.


    As the news spread across the inhabited worlds, a cosmic unity developed. Love and hate, war
    and peace were put aside in favor of an immense research effort to find ways of surviving the
    impending baryogenetic catastrophe.
    A solution was found. Arks were devised: immense artificial worlds, some as much as a meter
    across, their structures robust enough to withstand the collapse. It was unsatisfactory; the
    baryogenesis could not be prevented, and almost everything would be lost in the process. But
    these ships of quagma would sail beyond the end of time, as the quagmites saw it, and in their
    artificial minds they would store the poetry of a million worlds. It was better than nothing.


    As time ran out, as dead baryons filled up the universe and civilizations crumbled, the quagma
    arks sailed away. But mere survival wasn’t enough for the last quagmites. They wanted to be
    remembered.


    The universe was now about the size of Sol system, and still swelling.
    And even before baryogenesis was complete, another transition was approaching. The new
    baryons gathered in combinations of two, three, four, or more. These were atomic nuclei—-
    although nothing like atoms, with their extended clouds of electrons, could yet exist; each
    nucleus was bare.

    These simple nuclei spontaneously formed from the soup of protons and neutrons, but the
    background radiation was still hot enough that such clusters were quickly broken up again. That
    would soon change, though: just as there had been a moment when matter could no longer
    evaporate back to radiant energy, and a moment when quarks no longer evaporated out of
    baryons, soon would come a time when atomic nuclei became stable, locking up free baryons.
    This was nucleosynthesis.

    For the last quagmites, huddled in their arks, it was hard to imagine any form of life that could
    exploit such double-dead stuff, with quarks locked inside baryons locked inside nuclei. But from
    a certain point on, such nuclear matter must inevitably dominate the universe, and any life that
    arose in the future would be constructed of it.


    The quagmites wanted to be remembered. They had determined that any creatures of the remote
    future, made of cold, dead, nuclear stuff, would not forget them. And they saw an opportunity.

    At last the moment of nucleosynthesis arrived.


    The universe’s prevailing temperature and pressure determined the products of this mighty
    nucleus-baking. Around three-quarters of the nuclei formed would be hydrogen—simple protons.
    Most of the rest would be helium, combinations of four baryons. Any nuclei more complex
    would be—-ought to be—vanishingly rare; a universe of simple elements would emerge from this
    new transition.


    But the quagmites saw a way to change the cosmic oven’s settings.

    The fleet of arks sailed through the cosmos, gathering matter with gauzy magnetic wings. Here a
    knotted cloud was formed, there a rarefied patch left exposed. They worked assiduously,
    laboring to make the universe a good deal more clumpy than it had been before. And this
    clumpiness promoted the baking, not just of hydrogen and helium nuclei, but of a heavier
    nucleus, a form of lithium—three protons and four neutrons. There was only a trace of it
    compared to the hydrogen and helium; the quagmites didn’t have enough power to achieve more
    than that. Nevertheless there was too much lithium to be explained away by natural processes.


    The scientists of the ages to follow would indeed spot this anomalous “lithium spike,” and
    would recognize it for what it was: a work of intelligence. At last cold creatures would come to
    see, and the quagmite arks would begin to tell their story. But that lay far in the future.

    With the subatomic drama of nucleosynthesis over, the various survivors sailed resentfully on.
    There were the last quagmites in their arks, and much-evolved descendants of the spacetime-
    condensate symbiotes of earlier times yet, all huddling around the primordial black holes. To
    them the universe was cold and dark, a swollen monster where the temperature was a mere
    billion degrees, the cosmic density only about twenty times water. The universe was practically a
    vacuum, they complained, and its best days were already behind it.

    The universe was three minutes old.

    The impoverished universe expanded relentlessly.


    Space was filled with a bath of radiation, reddening as the expansion stretched it, and by a thin
    fog of matter. Most of this was dark matter, engaged in its own slow chemistry. The baryonic
    matter—”light” matter—was a trace that consisted mostly of simple nuclei and electrons. Any
    atoms that formed, as electrons hopefully gathered around nuclei, were immediately broken up
    by the still-energetic radiation. Without stable atoms, no interesting chemistry could occur. And
    meanwhile the ionic mist scattered the radiation, so that the universe was filled with a pale,
    featureless glow. The cosmos was a bland, uninteresting place, endured with resentment by the
    survivors of gaudier eras.


    Nearly four hundred thousand years wore away, and the universe inflated to a monstrous size,
    big enough to have enclosed the Galaxy of Pirius’s time.


    Then the epochal cooling reached a point where the photons of the radiation soup were no
    longer powerful enough to knock electrons away from their nuclear orbits. Suddenly atoms,
    mostly hydrogen and helium, coalesced furiously from the mush of nuclei and electrons.
    Conversely, the radiation was no longer scattered: the new atomic matter was transparent.


    The universe went dark in an instant. It was perhaps the most dramatic moment since the birth
    of light itself, many eras past.


    To the survivors of earlier times, this new winter was still more dismaying than what had gone
    before. But every age had unique properties. Even in this desolate chill, interesting processes
    could occur.


    The new baryonic atoms were a mere froth on the surface of the deeper sea of dark matter. The
    dark stuff, cold and gravitating, gathered into immense wispy structures, filaments and bubbles
    and voids that spanned the universe. And baryonic matter fell into the dark matter’s deepening
    gravitational wells. There it split into whirling knots that split further into pinpoints, that
    collapsed until their interiors became so compressed that their temperatures matched that of the
    moment of nucleosynthesis.

    In the hearts of the young stars, nuclear fusion began. Soon a new light spread through the
    universe. The stars gathered into wispy hierarchies of galaxies and clusters and superclusters, all
    of it matching the underlying dark matter distribution.

    Stars were stable and long-lasting fusion machines, and in their hearts light elements were baked
    gradually into heavier ones: carbon, oxygen, nitrogen. When the first stars died, they scattered
    their heavy nuclei through space. These in turn were gathered into a second generation of stars,
    and a third—and from this new, dense material still more interesting objects formed, planets with
    rocky hearts, that swooped on unsteady orbits around the still-young stars.


    In these crucibles life evolved.


    Here, for instance, was the young Earth. It was a busy place. Its cooling surface was dotted with
    warm ponds in which a few hundred species of carbon-compound chemicals reacted furiously
    with each other, producing new compounds which in turn interacted in new ways. The networks
    of interactions quickly complexified to the point where autocatalytic cycles became possible,
    closed loops which promoted their own growth; and some of these autocatalytic cycles chanced
    upon feedback processes to make themselves stable; and, and…


    Autocatalysis, homeostasis, life.

    Shocked into awareness, humans mastered their environment, sailed beyond the planet of their
    birth, and wondered where they had come from.

    It seemed to the humans that the ages that had preceded their own had been impossibly brief, a
    mere flash in the afterglow of the singularity, and they saw nothing but a cold dark tunnel ahead.
    They thought that it was only now that a life as rich as theirs was possible. It was a common
    mistake. Most humans never grasped that their existence was a routine miracle.


    But they did learn that this age of stars was already declining. The peak of star formation had
    come, in fact, a billion years before the birth of Earth itself. By now more stars were dying than
    were being born, and the universe would never again be as bright as it had in those vanished
    times before.


    Not only that, humans started to see, but other forces were at work to accelerate that darkening.


    For humans, the universe suddenly seemed a dangerous place.

    In this age of matter the proto-Xeelee found new ways to survive. Indeed, they prospered. They
    formed new levels of symbiosis with baryonic-matter forms. The new form—a composite
    of three ages of the universe—-was the kind eventually encountered by humans, who would come
    to call them by a distorted anthropomorphic version of a name in an alien tongue: they were, at
    last, Xeelee.


    But soon the new Xeelee faced an epochal catastrophe of their own.

    They still relied on the primordial black holes, formed in the earliest ages after the singularity;
    they used the holes’ twisted knots of spacetime to peel off their spacetime-defect “wings,” for
    instance. But now the primordial holes were becoming rare: leaking mass-energy through
    Hawking radiation, they were evaporating. By the time humanity arose, the smallest remaining
    holes were the mass of the Moon.

    It was devastating for the Xeelee, as if for humans the planet Earth had evaporated from under
    their feet.


    But a new possibility offered itself. New black holes were formed from the collapse of giant
    stars, and at the hearts of galaxies, mergers were spawning monsters with the mass of a million
    Sols. Here the Xeelee migrated. The transition wasn’t easy; a wave of extinction followed among
    their diverse kind. But they survived, and their story continued.

    And it was the succor of the galaxy-center black holes that first drew the Xeelee into contact
    with dark matter.


    There was life in dark matter, as well as light.


    Across the universe, dark matter outweighed the baryonic, the “light,” by a factor of six. It
    gathered in immense reefs hundreds of thousands of light-years across. Unable to shed heat
    through quirks of its physics, the dark material was resistant to collapse into smaller structures,
    the scale of stars or planets, as baryonic stuff could.


    Dark and light matter passed like ghosts, touching each other only with gravity. But the pinprick
    gravity wells of the new baryonic stars were useful. Drawn into these wells, subject to greater
    concentrations and densities than before, new kinds of interactions between components of dark
    matter became possible.

    In this universe, the emergence of life in dark matter was inevitable. In their earliest stages,
    these “photino birds” swooped happily through the hearts of the stars, immune to such
    irrelevances as the fusion fire of a sun’s core.


    What did disturb them was the first stellar explosions—-and with them the dissipation of the
    stars’ precious gravity wells, without which there would be no more photino birds.


    Almost as soon as the first stars began to shine, therefore, the photino birds began to alter stellar
    structures and evolution. If they clustered in the heart of a star they could damp the fusion
    processes there. By this means the birds hoped to hurry a majority of stars through the
    inconvenience of explosions and other instabilities and on to a dwarf stage, when an aging star
    would burn quietly and coldly for aeons, providing a perfect arena for the obscure dramas of
    photino life. A little later the photino birds tinkered with the structures of galaxies themselves, to
    produce more dwarfs in the first place.

    Thus it was that humans found themselves in a Galaxy in which red dwarf stars, stable, long-
    lived and unspectacular, outnumbered stars like their own sun by around ten to one. This was
    hard to fit into any naturalistic story of the universe, though generations of astrophysicists
    labored to do so: like so many features of the universe, the stellar distribution had been polluted
    by the activities of life and mind. It would not be long, though, before the presence of the
    photino birds in Earth’s own sun was observed.


    The Xeelee had been troubled by all this much earlier.


    The Xeelee cared nothing for the destiny of pond life like humanity. But by suppressing the
    formation of the largest stars, the birds were reducing the chances of more black holes forming.
    What made the universe more hospitable for the photino birds made it less so for the Xeelee. The
    conflict was inimical.

    The Xeelee began a grim war to push the birds out of the galaxies, and so stop their tinkering
    with the stars. The Xeelee had already survived several universal epochs; they were formidable
    and determined. Humans would glimpse silent detonations in the centers of galaxies, and they
    would observe that there was virtually no dark matter to be observed in galaxy centers. Few
    guessed that this was evidence of a war in heaven.


    But the photino birds turned out to be dogged foes. They were like an intelligent enemy, they
    were like a plague, and they were everywhere; and for some among the austere councils of the
    Xeelee there was a chill despair that they could never be beaten.


    And so, even as the war in the galaxies continued, the Xeelee began a new program, much more
    ambitious, of still greater scale.


    Their immense efforts caused a concentration of mass and energy some hundred and fifty
    million light-years from Earth’s Galaxy. It was a tremendous knot that drew in galaxies like
    moths across three hundred million light-years, a respectable fraction of the visible universe.
    Humans, observing these effects, called the structure the Great Attractor—-or, when one of them
    journeyed to it, Bolder’s Ring.


    This artifact ripped open a hole in the universe itself. And through this doorway, if all was lost,
    the Xeelee planned to flee. They would win their war—or they would abandon the universe that
    had borne them, in search of a safer cosmos.

    Humans, consumed by their own rivalry with the Xeelee, perceived none of this. To the Xeelee
    —as they fought a war across hundreds of millions of light-years, as they labored to build a
    tunnel out of the universe, as stars flared and died billions of years ahead of their time—humans,
    squabbling their way across their one Galaxy, were an irritant.

    A persistent irritant, though.”~Exultant

    “And again.. everything the Xeelee do, the Anti-Spirals do faster. They also just seem to do it better.”

    How can you do something “faster” than a race who’s most basic tenant of society is that it’s one entire Closed Timelike Curve, or be faster than a society that even has time travel in general? It’s an entirely meaningless statement!

    “The buzzsaw motion removes that chance. The galaxy would be wrecked anyhow by the gravity fucking with everything.”

    The galaxy isn’t very important in this scenario. Could you elucidate for me what the ‘buzzsaw motion’ is, again?

    “One supernova is not the same as having thousands if not millions of stars colliding with you essentially instantly. Exploding or not. A super nova is nothing compared to the Galaxy Shuriken attack.”

    You have still failed to tell me why these stars are going to magically attract to Xeelee Nightfighters. And of course it would have to be magical, given the sheer scale involved.

    “Not that this is that important. They could just reach over and crush the Xeelee’s galaxies at the start of the fight with an attack made from the future, it seems.”

    The Xeelee don’t exactly require galaxies for anything other than easy construction methods, and even then they still have a plethora of methods for mass generating materials and weaponry without them. Crushing their galaxies (which is every galaxy in the observable universe, by the way) actually does little to halt them, never mind their CTC loop or the antiXeelee.

    “Also what kind of distances are the xeelee capable of foreseeing attacks because the antispirals can launch attacks from anywhere in the universe and have some level of omniscience in where they can keep track of every spiral races exact population count everywhere in the universe.”

    Spurious analytic observations. I’m talking about time travel foreknowledge, and in that sense they are effectively unlimited.

  41. Friendlysociopath January 29, 2015 at 10:22 pm -      #41

    Goddamn, can’t you people ever post just the relevant quotes instead of the entire book?

    Also, isn’t there a BankGambling rule about not being able to time travel back before the start of the match?

  42. Sauroposeidon January 29, 2015 at 10:51 pm -      #42

    Fucking christ that’s a lot to read..

    “They would emerge a mere
    hundred thousand years after the singularity itself, at the moment when the temperature of
    the cosmos had cooled sufficiently for matter and radiation to become decoupled”

    Suggests to me that the Infinity Big Bang Storm should still take down the antixeelee.. or anything xeelee really.

    “Either way it’s not exactly something a Nightfighter couldn’t handle.”

    I get the feeling that you’re equating this to dealing with supernovas again.. when you’re not considering the energy being applied to the target to even push it that far or through these things.

    And.. I’m gonna say tl;dr for the rest. I got the the point where the “good guys” changed reality and then when I realized it was still going I gave up. I often ask people to be more concise with their quotes. I’m going to ask you to be the same. Isolate the important stuff in as few paragraphs as possible, please. If I want to see more, I’ll ask for it. It was A LOT of reading with no foreword about what I was supposed to be looking for, with nothing reaching out to me with a “This is better than the anti-spirals” sign.

  43. jackn8r January 30, 2015 at 12:13 am -      #43

    “I had asked because the response to thrown galaxies made it seem like they were casually shrugging off the same kind of attack when in fact we know it was a much more epic war, and that the attack which they countered was from a foe which defeated them. It seemed like a poorly constructed response intended solely to downplay the anti-spirals and pump up the xeelee.”

    The Xeelee did shrug them off, but on super long time scales. Photino birds would launch galaxies and the Xeelee would intercept/slice these galaxies by hurling cosmic strings but these didn’t even reach each other for thousands of years at least. There’s a quote somewhere describing how all these attacks and counterattacks were taken long before they would have any effect. The Photino birds ultimate weapon though was a reflective box with walls made of compressed galaxies that they put around the Ring. The closed system basically took energy from the Ring every so often to let it tear itself apart. Suns and galaxies get talked about a lot but Xeelee only ever used cosmic strings as projectiles. Photino birds used galaxies, and Humans used neutron stars.

    “Because if I recall the Xeelee use more realistic, hard science tech,and relativistic means sub light speed in my book. The Anti-Spirals were throwing galaxies across enormous distances in mere seconds.”

    They threw cosmic strings around at lightspeed but not FTL. It’s got the mass of a hundred billion stars… Can you believe that? It’s as massive as a medium-size galaxy itself.
    Supermassive spacetime defects essentially that really mess stuff up through huge gravitational effects.

    “The most impressive thing the Xelee ever did was The Ring, as far as I’m concerned. They used mass to rip a hole in to another universe to escape the Photino Birds.

    The Anti-Spirals created another universe (time to do such unknown), and hid in it. During their final battle they rip a hole open to their home Universe so Earth can watch the fight.”

    Being able to select which universe you want to move to from an infinite multiverse is much more impressive than simply creating a universe. A single nightfighter created an infinite universe and engineered it.

    “If the xeelee aren’t fast enough to get out of the way of thousands of stars colliding in to them as the galaxy buzzsaws through their area in a matter of seconds I think it might matter.”

    I have to disagree with you on this one.

    “and the protoXeelee creating inflation”

    That wasn’t the proto-Xeelee.

    “Except when you can leap through galaxies and hit them with lasers that explode them entirely. You cannot hope to dodge that.”

    Why not if they have knowledge of it?

    “Ok, are they going to dodge getting pulled into a universal singularity by jumping between galaxies? Not gonna work.”

    Xeelee can survive singularities. They live in black holes and reproduce with singularities. Also, what about pocket universes?

    “We’d need quotes. Ripping a hole into another universe still seems more impressive to me than the antimatter business.”

    It is and he isn’t right. The proto-Xeelee were not behind those feats.

    “And again.. everything the Xeelee do, the Anti-Spirals do faster. They also just seem to do it better.”

    I disagree with this as well. Cosmic strings and galaxies aren’t weapons of choice they’re just examples of scale. Xeelee nightfighters can follow any worldline, going on any spacelike or timelike trajectory they please making them in effect the fastest possible.

    “So.. again.. what stops the Xeelee from just getting punched out?”

    I think the Xeelee could do it faster. What’s stopping them from creating temporal clones ad infinitum until every spacelike trajectory is occupied? What’s stopping them from doing that to the point where all the extra mass just collapses into a black hole that envelopes everything in the universe (if the universe can even contain that)? What about combining the anti-Xeelee’s practical omniscience with near perfect time travel to just always be one step ahead of the antispirals? What about creating a universe of black holes?

    “Also, isn’t there a BankGambling rule about not being able to time travel back before the start of the match?”

    There is. You don’t need to violate it to make excellent use of time travel though. It was decided that SG lost to the Xeelee in under 5 seconds from CTC and a lack of durability on SG’s part.

    “Suggests to me that the Infinity Big Bang Storm should still take down the antixeelee.. or anything xeelee really.”

    The anti-xeelee isn’t physical. The anti-xeelee will cease to exist when the universe it’s in ceases to exist.

  44. Sauroposeidon January 30, 2015 at 7:31 am -      #44


    Why not if they have knowledge of it?”

    They won’t have my knowledge, is my general take away.

    The fact that they can negate the probability of your counter attack working also helps.

    But mostly it’s that part where their mooks can attack you from different points in time that got my attention.

    They can make it so their attack DOES hit, and they can attack the xeelee at the start of the match from a future point in time from the match, while hiding in the future to avoid a counter attack.

    This in effect gives the Anti-Spirals infinite prep time, and the xeelee none. They will be hit literally the instant the match begins by universe ending attacks, with no chance of their defenses actually working. Hell they could be hit with just thrown stars and it would work since their probability of tanking the attacks would be made zero, or next to it.

    That’s the point. Again. Everything the xeelee do, they don’t do it as well as the anti-spirals when they do it. Everything they do, they don’t do it as fast. Their technology isn’t going to match up with the bullshitium powered anti-spirals.

    Folks keep comparing the two and acting like they’re equal, when everything the anti-spirals do is because they intentionally weakened themselves, and they were still stronger than Team Dai-Gurren. They do it casually. They do it instantly. The xeelee take countless generations to match any given feat and even then it’s not to scale.

    It’s almost laughable how badly outclassed they seem to be, and frankly is laughable that there seems to be an opinion that getting hit with the combined mass of a gravity at FTL speeds is something any one of them can shrug off when it’s so beyond anything they’ve yet shown. I mean, for fuck’s sake, the counter argument to galaxy shurikens was “Well there’s a lot of empty space in a galaxy.”

    And then “I post whole books” Yatsu here goes on to ask for more information on the buzzsaw motion. Watch the fucking links, because it’s obvious you aren’t. You’re just bullshittig about.

    Nothing presented so far matters. I mean.. seriously? They send themselves back in time to warn themselves of the future is their big fucking trump card? How does this beat anyone with time travel if they match feats with them, or surpass them, like, say, the Anti-Spirals?

    Well, that’s all I’ve got.. I’m off to work. Good luck finding anything useful for the xeelee.

  45. jackn8r January 30, 2015 at 11:08 am -      #45

    “They won’t have my knowledge, is my general take away.

    The fact that they can negate the probability of your counter attack working also helps.”

    The anti-xeelee is a universe spanning quantum-wave consciousness that can make other being incorporeal if it wishes (as can the regular Xeelee) and moves backward in time. Also, it can interact and coerce other incorporeal entities.When the Xeelee fled from the Photino birds, the anti-xeelee stayed. The anti-xeelee grants them knowledge of everything in the future and present throughout the universe. How does this probability weapon work?

    “They can make it so their attack DOES hit, and they can attack the xeelee at the start of the match from a future point in time from the match, while hiding in the future to avoid a counter attack.”

    And why can the Xeelee not do the same?

    “This in effect gives the Anti-Spirals infinite prep time, and the xeelee none. They will be hit literally the instant the match begins by universe ending attacks, with no chance of their defenses actually working.”

    The Xeelee have infinite prep time from CTC as well which can be used literally the instant the match starts. Will said universe ending attacks actually end the FP arena universe? Because that’s against FP rules. Additionally, what’s stopping the Xeelee just initiating a false vacuum collapse (as an example matching feat)? Practically every lesser race in the Xeelee universe has universe-busting abilities. The silver ghosts for example created a FVC that had an AI living inside it and contained it by changing the laws of physics. This is a peon race in the sequence.

    “That’s the point. Again. Everything the xeelee do, they don’t do it as well as the anti-spirals when they do it. Everything they do, they don’t do it as fast. Their technology isn’t going to match up with the bullshitium powered anti-spirals.”

    I want to see something on the anti-spirals’ time travel. Xeelee have instantaneous communication and transit, perfect time travel, and omniscience is a buff too. Universe ending attacks are out unless there’s a pocket/side universe somewhere they both have access to.

    “The xeelee take countless generations to match any given feat and even then it’s not to scale.”

    I assume you’re referring to throwing galaxy sized objects around. That feat should not be an indicator of Xeelee speed. The only reason they ever used something so dull and archaic was to dismiss the Photino birds who used such tactics.

    “It’s almost laughable how badly outclassed they seem to be, and frankly is laughable that there seems to be an opinion that getting hit with the combined mass of a gravity at FTL speeds is something any one of them can shrug off when it’s so beyond anything they’ve yet shown.”

    Does perfect time travel and consequently FTL that can’t be matched and omniscience mean nothing? …But with FTL travel, beyond the bounds of lightspeed, the orderly structure of space and time became irrelevant, leaving nothing but the events, disconnected incidents floating in the dark. And with an FTL ship you could hop from one event to another arbitrarily, without regard to any putative cause-and-effect sequence……This interstellar war was fought with faster-than-light technology, on both sides. But if you flew FTL you broke the bounds of causeality: an FTL ship was a time machine. And so this was a time-travel war, in which information about the future constantly leaked into the past….The fly flickered out of the image, which changed to a long shot centered on a shrunken Saturn. Now the Xeelee fly was a black dart that plunged at the cap, flickering, making rapid, short FTL jumps. Darc said, “That’s a classic Tolman maneuver. It’s trying to send images of the encounter to its own past.”
    By trajectories here it means spacelike or timelike. i1271.photobucket.com/albums/jj636/jackn8r/diagram.jpg
    Every nightfighter can follow timelike trajectories which gives the possibility for infinite time as a resource, CTC, and FTL that can be instantaneous at the start of the match or take negative time after it.

    “Nothing presented so far matters. I mean.. seriously? They send themselves back in time to warn themselves of the future is their big fucking trump card? How does this beat anyone with time travel if they match feats with them, or surpass them, like, say, the Anti-Spirals?”

    Because using CTC and perfect time travel allows them to do anything faster than the anti-spirals. Like changing the laws of physics, or creating a pocket universe and the anti-Xeelee coercing them into it, or creating black holes right on top of them, or creating a FVC that expands at lightspeed where their heads are, or creating temporal clones that occupy the entire universe, or hurl cosmic strings from point-blank, or making every anti-spiral into a quantum-wave consciousness and letting the anti-Xeelee take care of them, etc. Better time travel = more effective combat.

  46. Sauroposeidon January 30, 2015 at 2:35 pm -      #46

    “How does this probability weapon work?”

    They never reveal the mechanics of such. But it’s something their mooks do so I can’t assume it’s difficult for them.

    “And why can the Xeelee not do the same?”

    We haven’t shown that xeelee have probability altering capabilities yet.

    Although I did reach my limit somewhere in Yatsu’s post and I may have missed it, they haven’t shown that they’re even able to do some of the same tricks as the Ashtanga yet.

    “Does perfect time travel and consequently FTL that can’t be matched and omniscience mean nothing?”

    It is literally useless in this fight. They can’t know what’s going to hit them before it hits them because they can’t be warned before the start of the match.

    “Because using CTC and perfect time travel allows them to do anything faster than the anti-spirals”

    Except it’s still not faster, because it takes them forever and a day to get anything done. They rely on the loop for information but it doesn’t change anything in this match. It’s only useful against enemies who don’t also have time travel.

    They have not displayed a single thing better than the anti-spirals, and everything they can do equally, again, is weaker than what we’ve seen them already do while scaling themselves down to Team Dai-Gurren’s level.

    The Xeelee are still losing here. Badly.

  47. Yatsukahagi January 30, 2015 at 3:36 pm -      #47

    “Goddamn, can’t you people ever post just the relevant quotes instead of the entire book?”

    That is the relevant quote.

    “Suggests to me that the Infinity Big Bang Storm should still take down the antixeelee.. or anything xeelee really.”

    Whether or not the Infinite Big Bang Storm would fell anything short of a Monad from the Xeeleeverse is not the question. What we are discussing is how the Infinite Big Bang Storm would affect the antiXeelee, who do not exist in any one time period.

    Not to mention the ever-pressing matters of configuration space and false-vacuum collapses, but I do not want to stray to those parts yet.

    “I get the feeling that you’re equating this to dealing with supernovas again.. when you’re not considering the energy being applied to the target to even push it that far or through these things.”

    I believe I have made my stance very clear that I do not believe the Nightfighter would be tanking the raw force of these attacks. No, they deal with things like this through superior maneuverability and versatility.

    Speaking of which, I wonder: can these larger-than-galaxy mecha even hope to target the Xeelee Nightfighters short of “blowing up the galaxy”? Can they even see them? This brings up some interesting questions and tactics, for instance, what’s stopping a Nightfighter from closing in on the cockpit via FTL and directly attacking the pilots?

    “And.. I’m gonna say tl;dr for the rest. I got the the point where the “good guys” changed reality and then when I realized it was still going I gave up. I often ask people to be more concise with their quotes. I’m going to ask you to be the same. Isolate the important stuff in as few paragraphs as possible, please. If I want to see more, I’ll ask for it. It was A LOT of reading with no foreword about what I was supposed to be looking for, with nothing reaching out to me with a “This is better than the anti-spirals” sign.”

    It was Baxter’s version of the timeline of the Big Bang, with all of the larger scale features of the universe being created by the protoXeelee or groups that eventually became the Xeelee, with the exception of C and perhaps CPT symmetry breaking and one other instance I’m forgetting.

    “The fact that they can negate the probability of your counter attack working also helps.

    But mostly it’s that part where their mooks can attack you from different points in time that got my attention.

    They can make it so their attack DOES hit, and they can attack the xeelee at the start of the match from a future point in time from the match, while hiding in the future to avoid a counter attack.”

    This sounds outstandingly like standard Xeelee temporal combat. For perspective, while the Interim Coalition of (Human) Governance was waging war against the Xeelee, a particular ‘hot-shot’ move was to send back information to yourself to alter your tactics to be befitting of your opponents. I’m not sure we’re you’ve gotten the impression the Xeelee are chumps at temporal warfare from, they’re practically based off of it.

    I’d also like some further explanation on these ‘probability-altering’ weapons.

    “It’s almost laughable how badly outclassed they seem to be, and frankly is laughable that there seems to be an opinion that getting hit with the combined mass of a gravity at FTL speeds is something any one of them can shrug off when it’s so beyond anything they’ve yet shown. I mean, for fuck’s sake, the counter argument to galaxy shurikens was “Well there’s a lot of empty space in a galaxy.”

    And this is a perfectly viable counterargument. You seem to be under the mistaken impression that throwing galaxies is an impressive feat. It’s not, for two reasons that have already been explained: 1: FTL makes no difference in the total kinetic energy and 2: galaxies are made of vast swathes of empty space that make throwing a galaxy at something utterly impractical thanks to such a low probability of something actually being hit.

    The Xeelee are hardly outclassed. I have brought up no less than three separate points detailing just how powerful and versatile they are, none of which have been dealt with. Your best argument (and the most sound scientifically) is currently crushing
    the universe into a singularity, which as I noted, fails to deal with the antiXeelee, and some other more esoteric aspects of their forces.

    “And then “I post whole books” Yatsu here goes on to ask for more information on the buzzsaw motion. Watch the fucking links, because it’s obvious you aren’t. You’re just bullshittig about.”

    It’s quite hypocritical of you complain about how I posted a relevant quote of too much information for you to digest and then berate me for not watching all 25 minutes of the videos that have been posted. –
    Anyway, in the ‘Gurren Lagann- All Transformations/Finishing Moves”, no reference to any sort of ‘buzzsaw attack’ is made, so I’m afraid you’re going to have to point specific instances.


    On a side note, how large is STTGL? Because I was doing some research on TTGL, and provided we employ various real life concepts, it comes out to be pretty unimpressive in mass and even size.

  48. pimpmage January 30, 2015 at 4:59 pm -      #48

    “And this is a perfectly viable counterargument. You seem to be under the mistaken impression that throwing galaxies is an impressive feat. It’s not, for two reasons that have already been explained: 1: FTL makes no difference in the total kinetic energy and 2: galaxies are made of vast swathes of empty space that make throwing a galaxy at something utterly impractical thanks to such a low probability of something actually being hit.”

    At the start of the match, GL verse top two mecha can contain the entire universe between their weapons. You cannot prep vs this seeing as xeelee or anti cannot react to it till it happens. They cannot go back in time to set events in motion such a huge distance away in time. The entire universe worth of mass then gets absorbed into the TTGL at that point. They would (from what I understand) either be killed outright or perminately BFRed in that singularity. Adding insult to injury would be to absorb that singularity and combine it’s mass with either mech.

    “On a side note, how large is STTGL? Because I was doing some research on TTGL, and provided we employ various real life concepts, it comes out to be pretty unimpressive in mass and even size.”

    imgur.com/qLXeBAm

  49. Yatsukahagi January 30, 2015 at 6:10 pm -      #49

    “At the start of the match, GL verse top two mecha can contain the entire universe between their weapons. You cannot prep vs this seeing as xeelee or anti cannot react to it till it happens.”

    I’m not entirely sure what you mean with this paragraph. Could you revise it?

    “They cannot go back in time to set events in motion such a huge distance away in time. The entire universe worth of mass then gets absorbed into the TTGL at that point. They would (from what I understand) either be killed outright or perminately BFRed in that singularity. Adding insult to injury would be to absorb that singularity and combine it’s mass with either mech.”

    I wouldn’t be so sure. The Xeelee are made of defects in spacetime and quagma. The only thing that can destroy Xeelee materials is an active alteration of the laws of physics. Normally the intense gravity waves found in a singularity as you’ve prescribed would do the trick, but Xeelee hyperdrives and communicators both work by actively modifying the laws of physics locally.

    I’ll go into further depth a bit later.

    “imgur.com/qLXeBAm”

    I’m afraid I can’t use that as a source. According to that caption, STTGL is 1500 billion meters tall (or 1500 hundred million, 億 can mean either). This is patently false by the very visual we see. We can see the structural features of the galaxies surrounding it. Unless those galaxies are thousands of times bigger than the largest gravitationally bound structures in the universe, then the size of STTGL is far smaller than stated.

    To expound on my statement, the most expansive galaxy ever seen, the elliptical supergiant IC 1101 (roughly 0.2 mm). They’d be too small to see as anything but stars, and too dim to make out at all.

    We also run into other problems using this visual. STTGL is transparent, therefore it has to be optically thin and therefore decades of orders of magnitude lighter massing than what a solid of those dimensions would imply I would be surprised if it massed more than the 40 or so galaxies we see around it. That’s 10^13 solar masses. Although the Ring may not be as large (although it may be argued it’s coming close), I would conclude it outmasses STTGL by nearly five orders of magnitude.

    This isn’t very relevant to the match, but more of a note.

  50. pimpmage January 30, 2015 at 6:44 pm -      #50

    “I’m not entirely sure what you mean with this paragraph. Could you revise it?”

    No. You understood exactly what I meant earlier. Why ask me to revise it?

    “I’m afraid I can’t use that as a source. According to that caption, STTGL is 1500 billion meters ”

    Why must it be meters? Not miles?

    “We can see the structural features of the galaxies surrounding it.”

    In the pic of the final form of TTGL:
    static1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20121211031907/gurennlagann/images/8/8d/Super-tengen-toppa-gurren-lagann.jpg
    You can clearly see one or two galaxies in front of it’s cape for scale. Those are miniscule to the one it is standing one foot on.

    And keep an eye on this video. Look at the minuscule galaxies in the foreground in front of these mechs. Then watch carefully as the purple drill is being pushed forward. You can see it crashing through dozens of galaxies on it’s way forward.

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=2M3AFC8AXb0#t=130

    You can stop watching at 3:25 as they created a singularity between their drills that pulled in the entire universe AND all light.

  51. pimpmage January 30, 2015 at 7:29 pm -      #51

    ““I’m afraid I can’t use that as a source. According to that caption, STTGL is 1500 billion meters ”

    Also, I cant believe I didn’t even fact check you on this. There are 27 zeroes on that estimated scale page. That is 15 Octillion miles or meters. 27 zeroes.

    math.about.com/od/glossaryofterms/a/zeros.htm

    So you try to downplay math now too? New low?

  52. Sauroposeidon January 30, 2015 at 7:39 pm -      #52

    ” STTGL is transparent, therefore it has to be optically thin and therefore decades of orders of magnitude lighter massing ”

    Nope. I’m done. You’re not even trying anymore, or you’re a troll. I don’t really care which.

  53. Yatsukahagi January 30, 2015 at 7:49 pm -      #53

    “No. You understood exactly what I meant earlier. Why ask me to revise it?”

    Your original statement:

    “At the start of the match, GL verse top two mecha can contain the entire universe between their weapons. You cannot prep vs this seeing as xeelee or anti cannot react to it till it happens.”

    Sentence one: a misrepresentation of the actual feat. They crush down the universe into a singularity, they don’t ‘contain the universe’.

    Sentence two: Unsupported assertion.

    “Why must it be meters? Not miles?”

    Apologies, I meant to put “light years”.

    “In the pic of the final form of TTGL:
    static1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20121211031907/gurennlagann/images/8/8d/Super-tengen-toppa-gurren-lagann.jpg
    You can clearly see one or two galaxies in front of it’s cape for scale. Those are miniscule to the one it is standing one foot on.

    And keep an eye on this video. Look at the minuscule galaxies in the foreground in front of these mechs. Then watch carefully as the purple drill is being pushed forward. You can see it crashing through dozens of galaxies on it’s way forward.”

    I don’t know if you think this disproves my statement or even affect the snippet you quoted, but this is irrelevant. Actually, it even furthers my point.

    “www.youtube.com/watch?v=2M3AFC8AXb0#t=130

    You can stop watching at 3:25 as they created a singularity between their drills that pulled in the entire universe AND all light.”

    This was never in question.

    “Nope. I’m done. You’re not even trying anymore, or you’re a troll. I don’t really care which.”

    This is the sign of a man who has lost his argument and knows it. If you believe the science behind my statement is not sound, you are free to challenge me on it. If you think calling me a troll in a passive aggressive statement without any real content fortifies your stance, you are sorely mistaken.

  54. Yatsukahagi January 30, 2015 at 8:03 pm -      #54

    “Also, I cant believe I didn’t even fact check you on this. There are 27 zeroes on that estimated scale page. That is 15 Octillion miles or meters. 27 zeroes.

    math.about.com/od/glossaryofterms/a/zeros.htm

    So you try to downplay math now too? New low?”

    I missed this earlier. Although this point does mean little, the picture says 1500億光年. This translates as 150,000,000,000 light years. So in essence, my statement was correct, although I did mislabel it as meters. The entire point of that was how the caption was obviously false, though.

  55. Commander Cross January 30, 2015 at 10:11 pm -      #55

    Okay it’s safe to admit that Gurren Lagann wipes the Worlds of Naruto, Kingdom Hearts, Sword of Truth and Sword Art Online across many Floors in terms of Antagonists, Story, Plot, Developments, Sympathetic Cast Members and Actual Consequences, but does that mean a lot of people among the 1st 3’s fanbases have to wind up as Jerks about it instead of providing positive feedback, receptions and note-taking for how to better themselves?

    Why not instead of going against that bit, they can instead re-examine how many Power Boosts they went to Spam and clutter out and instead focus on a smaller amount of Boosts, examine both how and WHY having only 2-5 boosts allowed actually WORKS and have it focused in-sync with ‘Character Development’ more often instead?

    It explains why Gurren Lagann works as far as Story, Plot and Events are concerned.

    —-

    There are more examples that actually bother to be tasteful about their boosts than just Gurren Lagann out there but given how many on-site fights it has, it’s by far among the most obvious.

    Semi-Joke coming in: The Next Episode will have The Anti-Spirals vs The Keeper from Sword of Truth, unless Madara or Kaguya Ootsutsuki are up for the plate.

    —-

    Enough digression for now, what has been agreed over by both sides thus far?

  56. pimpmage January 30, 2015 at 10:50 pm -      #56

    Xeelee wouldn’t be able to do anything valuable in the time it would take for anti spirals to make the universe into a singularity and then possibly absorb that into mass for the mech. The xeelee supposedly have time travel, but cant travel back before the match even begins. Even with infinite prep with time travel, they have not shown the ability to travel distances across the universe needed to even reach anti spiral mechs before the universe goes away. I still have no clue how xeelee could even harm any of the anti spiral. Even with the few seconds they have to live from the start of the match, they would be unable to even infinite prep themselves close enough or do enough damage before they lose.

  57. Yatsukahagi January 30, 2015 at 11:06 pm -      #57

    “Xeelee wouldn’t be able to do anything valuable in the time it would take for anti spirals to make the universe into a singularity and then possibly absorb that into mass for the mech. The xeelee supposedly have time travel, but cant travel back before the match even begins. Even with infinite prep with time travel, they have not shown the ability to travel distances across the universe needed to even reach anti spiral mechs before the universe goes away. I still have no clue how xeelee could even harm any of the anti spiral. Even with the few seconds they have to live from the start of the match, they would be unable to even infinite prep themselves close enough or do enough damage before they lose.”

    I think to fully solve the issue at hand we need word from the match creator. The antiXeelee and protoXeelee are involved- as separate entities? What are the circumstances of the match?

    And I do have to challenge your unspoken assertion that the Anti Spirals will be able to crush the universe so quickly. How do you know another mecha isn’t required to generate the force required to perform the Infinity Big Bang Attack? Why do you get to assume the Anti Spirals will be ready to perform this instantly once the match starts, while the Xeelee are thrown in blind?

    Also, I was looking over the mega-quote I posted from Exultant when I noticed that the protoXeelee were around from before matter-energy coalesced into quarks and gluons, with the era of nuclear matter. Based off of that, the Xeelee can tank Big Bang energies and gravitational waves.

  58. Yatsukahagi February 1, 2015 at 1:03 am -      #58

    “Light itself did not yet exist, and yet lightspeed was embedded in this universe.

    At any given moment, only a finite time had passed since the singularity, and an object traveling at lightspeed could have traversed only part of the span of the cosmos. Domains limited by lightspeed travel were the effective “universes” of their inhabitants, for the cosmos was too young for any signal to have been received from beyond their boundaries. But as the universe aged, so signals propagated further—and domains which had been separated since the first instant, domains which could have had no effect on each other before, were able to come into contact.

    And as they overlapped, life-forms crossed from one domain into another.

    For the federation, the creatures that suddenly came hurtling out of infinity were the stuff of nightmare. These invaders came from a place where the laws of physics were subtly different: the symmetry-breaking which had split gravity from the GUT superforce had occurred differently in different domains, for they had not been in causal contact at the time. That difference drove a divergence of culture, of values. The federation valued its hard-won prosperity, peace, and the slow accumulation of knowledge. The invaders, following their own peculiar imperatives, were intent only on destruction, and fueling their own continuing expansion. It was like an invasion from a parallel universe. Rapprochement was impossible.

    The invaders came from all around the federation’s lightspeed horizon. Reluctantly, the federation sought to defend itself, but a habit of peace had been cultivated for too long; everywhere the federation fell back. It seemed extinction was inevitable.

    But one individual found a dreadful alternative.

    Just as the cosmos had gone through a phase change when gravity had separated from the GUT force, so more phase changes were possible. The GUT force itself could be induced to dissociate further. The energy released would be catastrophic, unstoppable, universal—but, crucially, it would feed a new burst of universal expansion.

    The homelands of the invaders would be pushed back beyond the lightspeed horizon.

    But much of the federation would be scattered too. And, worse, a universe governed by a new combination of physical forces would not be the same as that in which the spacetime creatures had evolved. It would be unknowable, perhaps unsurvivable.

    It was a terrible dilemma. Even the federation was unwilling to accept the responsibility to remake the universe itself. But the invaders encroached, growing more ravenous, more destructive, as they approached the federation’s rich and ancient heart. In the end there was only one choice.

    A switch was thrown.

    A wall of devastation burned at lightspeed across the cosmos. In its wake the very laws of physics changed; everything it touched was transformed.

    The invaders were devastated.

    The primordial black holes survived—and, by huddling close to them, so did some representatives of the federation.

    But the federation’s scientists had not anticipated how long this great surge of growth would continue. With the domain war long won, the mighty cosmic expansion continued, at rates unparalleled in the universe’s history. Ultimately, it would last sixty times the age of the universe at its inception, and it would expand the federation’s corner of spacetime by a trillion, times a trillion, times a trillion, times a trillion. Human scientists, detecting the traces of this great burst of “inflation,” the single worst catastrophe in the universe’s long history, would always wonder what had triggered it. Few ever guessed it was the outcome of a runaway accident triggered by war.

    As the epochal storm continued the survivors of the federation huddled, folding their wings of spacetime flaws over themselves. When the gale at last passed, the survivors emerged into a new, chill cosmos. So much time had passed that they had changed utterly, and forgotten who they were, where they had come from. But they were heirs of a universe grown impossibly huge—a universe all of ten centimeters across.”~Exultant

    One of the more integral snippets from the quote I provided in post #40, for those who have not been following the rather large megaposts. The protoXeelee create inflation to deal with the ever-pressing matter of regions that withhold differing laws of physics in the early universe.

  59. Sauroposeidon February 1, 2015 at 9:19 am -      #59

    “This is the sign of a man who has lost his argument and knows it. If you believe the science behind my statement is not sound”

    You’re still not even trying.. that or I suppose you could also be stupid, but I’m trying to give you the benefit of the doubt here.. but it really looks like you just don’t even care. You’re not really paying attention to anything at all. Why should we continue arguing with you?

    ” How do you know another mecha isn’t required to generate the force required to perform the Infinity Big Bang Attack?”

    Because both the TTGL and the STTGL were insignificant against the anti-spirals. They admitted to scaling themselves down.. but were blatantly cheating the entire time. Perhaps if you had watched anything we fucking showed you, you would already know this. But I suppose you can’t fucking be bothered to actually educate yourself on the Anti-Spirals, can you? They only lost when Simon went after them directly.

  60. Yatsukahagi February 1, 2015 at 10:10 am -      #60

    “You’re still not even trying.. that or I suppose you could also be stupid, but I’m trying to give you the benefit of the doubt here.. but it really looks like you just don’t even care. You’re not really paying attention to anything at all. Why should we continue arguing with you?”

    I have clearly asked you to point out my faults or leave this thread. You have done neither, so at this point I must assume you yourself are simply a troll who has lost his argument and is angry over it.

    Trust me, this passive aggressive behavior is just going to make yourself look foolish. I’ve done it before.

    “Because both the TTGL and the STTGL were insignificant against the anti-spirals. They admitted to scaling themselves down..”

    This does not disprove the statement that a separate mecha was required to initiate the full side effects of the Infinity Big Bang Storm. In fact, it’s not entirely relevant to anything I’ve been saying. But I’m willing to concede this point, it mattered little to me.

    “but were blatantly cheating the entire time. Perhaps if you had watched anything we fucking showed you, you would already know this. But I suppose you can’t fucking be bothered to actually educate yourself on the Anti-Spirals, can you?”

    I, in fact, did already know this prior to the match, and was further told about it in an earlier post. This is exactly why I never contradicted the statement.*

    The very statement you quoted didn’t say otherwise, it was merely inquiring about some of the circumstances of what’s honestly a very vague feat.

    I also find it quite ironic for you to yell at me for apparently not educating myself about the Spirals while you seem to be extremely lacking in your knowledge about the Xeelee, despite several quotes and numerous explanations about their power being posted.

    *I understand you might think me going on about the size of STTGL would be a bit tangential. This is not the case. Not only can you scale STTGL to the Anti Spirals, but remember, STTGL was also fighting against them. But as I noted, the entire thing was just some observations I made. My actual points are far more solidified, not to mention you’ve made no progress against them.

  61. pimpmage February 1, 2015 at 11:09 am -      #61

    I feel like this is the start of another ‘Kitten Lord’ debate sauro. The xeelee cannot reach any anti spiral mechs before the universe gets blown up. The anti spiral could possibly have like thousands our millions of years time before xeelee could reach them. Xeelee have no way of actually hurting anti spirals once they do reach eachother. This is a completely stupid debate.

  62. Yatsukahagi February 1, 2015 at 11:22 am -      #62

    “I feel like this is the start of another ‘Kitten Lord’ debate sauro. The xeelee cannot reach any anti spiral mechs before the universe gets blown up.”

    You have completely failed to address any of my questions towards the validity of this tactic, or any of my counters for the Xeelee. As such, it is an unsupported assertion. Try again.

    “The anti spiral could possibly have like thousands our millions of years time before xeelee could reach them. Xeelee have no way of actually hurting anti spirals once they do reach eachother. This is a completely stupid debate.””

    Neither of these provide any reasoning or proof for why this is so. If you think calling this a stupid debate over some cargo-cult reasoning makes your argument, you are a long ways from the truth. As far as I’m concerned you’re just making this up.

  63. Aelfinn February 1, 2015 at 1:31 pm -      #63

    I read the entire chapter posted by Yatsukahagi. Nothing in it convinced me the Xeelee win. While what the proto-Xeelee did was very impressive (such as trigger universal inflation and make sure there was more matter than anti-matter), there’s nothing indicating they can change the laws of physics on such a scale currently. If they could, they would have easily defeated the photino birds. Furthermore, they have not demonstrated the ability to destroy something with as much durability as the Anti-spiral big huge mecha thing. Galaxies are worth attention, if rather inconsequential, for the Xeelee. Galaxies just don’t matter in any form for the Anti-Spirals.

  64. Yatsukahagi February 1, 2015 at 2:17 pm -      #64

    “I read the entire chapter posted by Yatsukahagi. Nothing in it convinced me the Xeelee win. While what the proto-Xeelee did was very impressive (such as trigger universal inflation and make sure there was more matter than anti-matter), there’s nothing indicating they can change the laws of physics on such a scale currently. If they could, they would have easily defeated the photino birds.”

    You’re under the mistaken impression that would be feasible. The sheer scale that hostilely altering physics against the Photino Birds would have absolutely devastating effects on the rest of the multiverse, so they went with Plan B of merely evacuating a significant fraction of baryonic matter from the universe.

    “Furthermore, they have not demonstrated the ability to destroy something with as much durability as the Anti-spiral big huge mecha thing. Galaxies are worth attention, if rather inconsequential, for the Xeelee. Galaxies just don’t matter in any form for the Anti-Spirals.”

    Any Nightfighter could jump to the cockpit and locally alter the laws of physics with its hyperdrive. That would be more than enough to deal with it, as far as I’ve seen. Time travel is another option, unless the match creator places everything in a manner where when the match starts, the Anti Spirals have their mecha ready.

    Really, I think people are seriously under-estimating the Xeelee here. Individually they’re no match for the Anti Spirals proper, but we’ve seen them do things just as impressive.

  65. Sauroposeidon February 1, 2015 at 2:18 pm -      #65

    “I have clearly asked you to point out my faults or leave this thread. You have done neither, so at this point I must assume you yourself are simply a troll who has lost his argument and is angry over it.”
    .
    Think for a minute. Use critical thinking skills for just a moment. If I’m taking issue with your statement on the STTGL’s mass, why would that be?
    .
    Actually watch the scenes involving it. It will become obvious. It might have something to do with the fact that it doesn’t actually have mass. Something you may have picked up on if you ever actually watched the fight.
    .
    “while you seem to be extremely lacking in your knowledge about the Xeelee, despite several quotes and numerous explanations about their power being posted.”
    .
    We have responded to every claim you have made. Usually every time you point something out, someone else gets to the point that the anti-spirals already can do that as well.
    .
    Alter physics? Done. Time travel? Done. Omnipresent? If not proven, then at least strongly implied enough to the point that it’s a moot point. Universe crossing? Accomplished with ease.
    .
    The problem you have yet to overcome is the speed factor. It takes the Xeelee a realistically long time to do anything. The anti-spirals are not limited by this level of realism.
    .
    Worse yet, for someone who wants to apply realistic physics to something, you for some reason think it takes the energy of the STTGL’s drill with the anti-spirals, when really, due to their clashing, even if the Anti-spirals are only equal to team dai-gurren, half of the energy output is being canceled b the impact by each other. The peripheral is what’s wiping out the universe.
    .
    This is why I said you’re not even trying. You’re just vomiting out the first thing that pops in to your head which sounds like it might logic away whatever the “enemy” can do with out really thinking about the match, or the anti-spirals.

  66. Sauroposeidon February 1, 2015 at 2:21 pm -      #66

    “Infinity Big Bang Attack”
    .
    Ah, I misread. I thought the two mecha are required statement was in reference to the universe destroying attack.. which they do with out the STTGL when they use their giga drill breaker in SRW, by the way. They did the infinity big bang storm attack by themselves with no action from team dai gurren. Which.. just seems to lend it self more to you having not watched the battle.

  67. Yatsukahagi February 1, 2015 at 2:48 pm -      #67

    “Think for a minute. Use critical thinking skills for just a moment. If I’m taking issue with your statement on the STTGL’s mass, why would that be?
    .
    Actually watch the scenes involving it. It will become obvious. It might have something to do with the fact that it doesn’t actually have mass. Something you may have picked up on if you ever actually watched the fight.”

    Video and timestamp, please. I missed that.

    “We have responded to every claim you have made. Usually every time you point something out, someone else gets to the point that the anti-spirals already can do that as well.”

    This is false. You have failed to deal with:

    1. The exact size of the mecha involved.
    2. A source for the new spacetime
    3. Dealing with an Xeelee Nightfighter flat out attacking the cockpit
    4. The Xeelee changing physics on both a global and local scale.
    5. Specifications of the Big Bang Attack.
    6. The matter of the antiXeelee.
    7. Various smaller, less important points.

    You better get to it. This is leaving out several viable feats of theirs, after all.

    “Alter physics? Done.”

    The only ground here was a flawed comment on the Photino Birds.

    “Time travel? Done.”

    The match stipulations here are far to vague for any conclusion to be made about time travel.

    “Omnipresent? If not proven, then at least strongly implied enough to the point that it’s a moot point.”

    Neither side is omnipresent, and to be quite frank I’m not sure which side you’re discussing here. If you refer to the antiXeelee, you have also made little ground here.

    “Universe crossing? Accomplished with ease.”

    I don’t believe this was ever in question for either side.

    “The problem you have yet to overcome is the speed factor. It takes the Xeelee a realistically long time to do anything. The anti-spirals are not limited by this level of realism.”

    You continue to prove my point. The Xeelee operate using acasual mechanics on strategic levels, use computers capable of expressing problems that can’t be expressed in a recursively enumerable fashion, and IIRC altered the Planck constant. They’re anything but slow.

    “Ah, I misread. I thought the two mecha are required statement was in reference to the universe destroying attack.. which they do with out the STTGL when they use their giga drill breaker in SRW, by the way. They did the infinity big bang storm attack by themselves with no action from team dai gurren. Which.. just seems to lend it self more to you having not watched the battle.”

    Which video was the SRW piece from? And would that even be classified as canon? SRW was horribly inconsistent, last time I checked.

  68. pimpmage February 1, 2015 at 3:05 pm -      #68

    Holy shit, you are making me cringe with every post you make. Can you please keep some sort of attention span? Must we re-inform you of stuff we already posted every time we respond to you? Please just reread this debate so far. Go back and relearn about stuff we spent time putting together. You are a human with an intelligent brain. Don’t fail me with this simple task. You can’t possibly have this short of an attention span unless you actually have a legitimate medical issue then we would all be more willing to put up with your shenanigans.

  69. Yatsukahagi February 1, 2015 at 3:25 pm -      #69

    “Holy shit, you are making me cringe with every post you make. Can you please keep some sort of attention span? Must we re-inform you of stuff we already posted every time we respond to you? Please just reread this debate so far. Go back and relearn about stuff we spent time putting together. You are a human with an intelligent brain. Don’t fail me with this simple task. You can’t possibly have this short of an attention span unless you actually have a legitimate medical issue then we would all be more willing to put up with your shenanigans.”

    I find your inability to do anything but fling around insults and act like you know what you’re talking about and are far superior than the opposing side quite vexing. It is your job as a representative of the Anti Spirals in this debate to properly form a coherent argument to further your side. Here, you eschew this in favor of ITG bullshit and arrogant obnoxiousness.

    You are not telling me that I’m wrong. You are telling me you are quite simply a fanboy far too invested in this debate. Which is exactly what anyone on this site who’s not a troll who feels they need to question the thinking abilities of their opponent is. If I were you, I would stop while you still have the teeniest smidgen of dignity left and begin to actually make proper points against mine, like normal, well-adjusted human beings tend to do.

  70. pimpmage February 1, 2015 at 3:45 pm -      #70

    Ok. I am at work right now and I respond to smaller topics in the seconds I have to spare. I am also on my phone right now. Quoting people and tearing arguments apart is quite tedious on limited time and a small touch screen phone. You assume this is all I am capable of because you are quite the cynic. I was trying to be polite earlier. You should seriously stop asking us to reconfirm feats we have already posted. But no, you take it as an insult and completely disregard what I was saying in the first place. Nowhere in your post did you even acknowledge your short attention span.

    And now you label me as a troll and tell me to leave? Why would I do that? I am the second person you have told to leave. Having a short attention span does not invalidate arguments or feats. Nor does labeling a person as a troll allow you to get out of answering their arguments. You have been happily jumping around everyone and telling them to repost crap you should have already acknowledged. Ignorance excuses no one.

  71. Commander Cross February 1, 2015 at 3:58 pm -      #71

    @Pimpmage at #70

    It’s like reading the worst aspects of Rand al’Thor vs Richard Rahl all over again, go give it a try to see what I mean my good sir. ;)
    Do NOT RESPOND to the thread itself however.

  72. Aelfinn February 1, 2015 at 4:05 pm -      #72

    “The sheer scale that hostilely altering physics against the Photino Birds would have absolutely devastating effects on the rest of the multiverse”

    Proof? The proto-Xeelee were ENTIRELY willing to change the laws of physics and screw with the entire universe because they were being attacked by beings similar to them (time-space anomalies). Now the Xeelee face utter and complete extinction from a species that is composed of entirely different materials (dark matter vs. time-space anomalies + some weird matter), and they don’t change any laws to deal with them. It’d be like willing to blow up the Earth because another nation attacked you, but then not be willing to blow it up when the Mole People arise and start attacking.
    =
    “Any Nightfighter could jump to the cockpit and locally alter the laws of physics with its hyperdrive.”

    Proof they can “locally” alter the laws of physics? Also, how are they going to get past the FTL tentacles that shoot out of the cockpit? No amount of foreknowledge will help you when you’ll lose every time. No matter how many people tell me that Superman will punch my head in in 5 seconds, nothing I do will change the fact that all that will be left of me will be a bloody smear.

  73. Yatsukahagi February 1, 2015 at 4:10 pm -      #73

    “You assume this is all I am capable of because you are quite the cynic. I was trying to be polite earlier.”

    In which case you failed spectacularly. I was not the one who went on a tangent about how someone’s posts make them cringe and then go on about said persons attention span.

    “You should seriously stop asking us to reconfirm feats we have already posted.”

    I’m asking you to confirm details about feats, not reconfirm their existence. You could do good rereading the thread yourself.

    “But no, you take it as an insult and completely disregard what I was saying in the first place. Nowhere in your post did you even acknowledge your short attention span.”

    Maybe I would take more care in responding to this matter if you didn’t wildly claim my behavior and fail to provide any evidence thereof. That is a rather fundamental part of making a point against another person.

    “And now you label me as a troll and tell me to leave? Why would I do that? I am the second person you have told to leave.”

    I told you to leave if you were going to continue with your current attitude and topic, that is, a terrible and patronizing attitude and a topic quite frankly irrelevant to ‘Xeelee vs Anti Spirals’. I am absolutely fine with you continuing to post here so long as we get somewhere.

    “Having a short attention span does not invalidate arguments or feats. Nor does labeling a person as a troll allow you to get out of answering their arguments.”

    This is the issue. Post #68 wasn’t an argument in the formal sense of the word, and by tone. It wasn’t an argument even towards the topic you brought up, never mind the match. To break it down:

    Post #68:
    1. You tell me you cringe at my posts (insult)
    2. Comment on keeping my attention span, etc. (irrelevant to Anti Spirals vs Xeelee, but not entirely silly otherwise)
    3. Objectively imply that I haven’t read this thread or remember these feats (false and an unsupported assertion)
    4. “Don’t fail me with this simple task” (not an argument, patronizing)
    5. Compare my apparent lack of attention span to mentally ill persons (quasi-insult and rude)

    This matches up with the behavior of most trolls I’ve seen. You keep acting like I’m invalidating feats because of my attention span- so where am I doing this? Where is the proof? This is a rather large hole in your ‘argument’.

    “You have been happily jumping around everyone and telling them to repost crap you should have already acknowledged. Ignorance excuses no one.”

    I have not once told someone to repost anything. You are yet again wrong. Trust me, this benefits neither of us. Let’s get back to the original debate.

  74. Yatsukahagi February 1, 2015 at 4:27 pm -      #74

    “Proof?”

    Would I be correct in the assumption you are familiar with the make-up of the Photino Birds?

    “The proto-Xeelee were ENTIRELY willing to change the laws of physics and screw with the entire universe because they were being attacked by beings similar to them (time-space anomalies).”

    Mind, the universe was nascent then, and the Xeelee likely hadn’t invested much care in what their actions meant for various other lifeforms (perhaps due to many not yet existing).

    “Now the Xeelee face utter and complete extinction from a species that is composed of entirely different materials (dark matter vs. time-space anomalies + some weird matter),”

    Let’s be fair. Their CTC ensured survival, they never faced complete extinction. The universe at large and many of inhabitants, however, did. Changing the laws of physics would not help them at all.

    “Proof they can “locally” alter the laws of physics?”

    We see them locally modify reality by altering the size of extra dimensions in Bolder’s Ring, and then again in Transcendent where we see hyperdrives working in impossible spacetimes based on their definition. I’ll pull up the quotes in a bit.

    “Also, how are they going to get past the FTL tentacles that shoot out of the cockpit? No amount of foreknowledge will help you when you’ll lose every time. No matter how many people tell me that Superman will punch my head in in 5 seconds, nothing I do will change the fact that all that will be left of me will be a bloody smear.”

    Hyperdrives have a jump-initialization range in picoseconds. And if they’re FTL in the sense they move a speeds in excess of c in realspace (and not in an alternate dimension where c is higher etc. etc.), I’m not sure they’ll even be able to touch the Nightfighters. I’ll expound here later.

  75. DokuSaki February 1, 2015 at 5:23 pm -      #75

    @yatsukahagi
    Could they escape a milti-dimensional labrynth.This gurrenlagann.wikia.com/wiki/Extradimensional_Labyrinth

    If so is there a limit to how many times. From my understanding as long as it is consious and not jacked up of spiral energy it cannot escape one. Also while you are at it. How would they?

  76. Aelfinn February 1, 2015 at 5:26 pm -      #76

    “Would I be correct in the assumption you are familiar with the make-up of the Photino Birds?”

    They are made of dark matter. How would changing the laws of physics in our universe affect all the universes?
    =
    “the Xeelee likely hadn’t invested much care in what their actions meant for various other lifeforms (perhaps due to many not yet existing).”

    The quote pretty much says that the proto-Xeelee effectively nuked themselves to deal with the invaders, let alone anyone else who wasn’t hanging around near a black hole.
    =
    “Changing the laws of physics would not help them at all.”

    If they’re able to change them willy-nilly as you suggest they do to the anti-spirals, they could have done it to their advantage against the photino birds. You can’t have it both ways.
    =
    “We see them locally modify reality by altering the size of extra dimensions in Bolder’s Ring, and then again in Transcendent where we see hyperdrives working in impossible spacetimes based on their definition.”

    You’re going to need those quotes, because that doesn’t say anything about the laws of physics in real-space being affected.
    =
    “if they’re FTL in the sense they move a speeds in excess of c in realspace”

    I have a feeling you didn’t watch any of the videos if you don’t know about the tentacles I’m talking about. Yes, they moved FTL in realspace. Probably millions, if not billions of times FTL.
    =
    “I’m not sure they’ll even be able to touch the Nightfighters”

    You are going to have to expand on this.

  77. Yatsukahagi February 1, 2015 at 5:37 pm -      #77

    “@yatsukahagi
    Could they escape a milti-dimensional labrynth.This gurrenlagann.wikia.com/wiki/Extradimensional_Labyrinth
    If so is there a limit to how many times. From my understanding as long as it is consious and not jacked up of spiral energy it cannot escape one. Also while you are at it. How would they?”

    We barely know anything about the Xeelee consciousnesses. Not to mention the hilarious results that come up when we consider the mechanics of time travel in the Xeeleeverse. How do people get trapped in it in the first place?

    @Aelfinn: I noticed the match stipulations include the protoXeelee by default, so the question of whether or not the present Xeelee can alter physics is irrelevant. I’ll get back to the rest of our conversation once I have more time (and quotes).

  78. DokuSaki February 1, 2015 at 6:04 pm -      #78

    @yatsuhagi
    “We barely know anything about the Xeelee consciousnesses. Not to mention the hilarious results that come up when we consider the mechanics of time travel in the Xeeleeverse. How do people get trapped in it in the first place?”

    Well the multi-dimenstional labyrinth is not time traval (that would be too easy) it is an inf number of dimensions layoured on top of each other. Each taylored for the captor and is based of the captors past and memories. Also to bare in mind that is just the lifeform that is sent there so any and all technology is rendered mute. Another thing to note the anti spiral pretty much does this right off the bat.

  79. Yatsukahagi February 1, 2015 at 6:10 pm -      #79

    “Well the multi-dimenstional labyrinth is not time traval (that would be too easy) it is an inf number of dimensions layoured on top of each other.”

    My comment about time travel was in reference to the labyrinth taking the past experiences of individuals.

    “Each taylored for the captor and is based of the captors past and memories. Also to bare in mind that is just the lifeform that is sent there so any and all technology is rendered mute.”

    Actually, one can make a pretty good argument the Xeelee are their Nightfighters. We have very little to draw distinction between. Of the top of my head, they’re defects in spacetime and quagma. That’s about the best we know.

    “Another thing to note the anti spiral pretty much does this right off the bat.”

    What?

  80. Aelfinn February 1, 2015 at 6:14 pm -      #80

    “the question of whether or not the present Xeelee can alter physics is irrelevant.”

    No it is not. I’m not saying “We saw the proto-xeelee do it, but not the current xeelee, so we don’t know if they can”, I’m saying “The xeelee did it once when it was advantageous, but they never showed the capacity to do it again, even when it would be advantageous.”

    Furthermore, what the Xeelee did was split up the forces of the Grand-Unified-Theory Force (minus gravity) into the ones we know: electromagnetism, the strong nuclear force, and the weak nuclear force. As far as we know, they have no more Forces to split up, or the ones we have now can’t be split up any further. Either way, they have not demonstrated any capacity for the splitting of forces besides the one at the beginning of the universe.

  81. DokuSaki February 1, 2015 at 6:25 pm -      #81

    @yatsu
    “Actually, one can make a pretty good argument the Xeelee are their Nightfighters. We have very little to draw distinction between. Of the top of my head, they’re defects in spacetime and quagma. That’s about the best we know.”

    I dont understand that. Also it does not matter what they are or what they are made of. As long as the have a consciousness.

    ““Another thing to note the anti spiral pretty much does this right off the bat.”

    What?”

    What I mean is as soon as the battle begins it will be the first move he tries. As soon as ttgl got through his defencive dimension. He did this.

  82. jackn8r February 1, 2015 at 7:52 pm -      #82

    “It is literally useless in this fight. They can’t know what’s going to hit them before it hits them because they can’t be warned before the start of the match.”

    Why would they need to if they can initiate a CTC and gain needed knowledge as soon as the match starts?

    “Except it’s still not faster, because it takes them forever and a day to get anything done. They rely on the loop for information but it doesn’t change anything in this match.”

    I’ll give you “forever and a half” for construction feats. When a nightfighter created a universe it took a few months, and the Ring took a VERY long time as well, but combat isn’t slow. Tossing galaxies and cosmic strings aren’t their real weapons they’re not effective and don’t do much. Really everything they have is quite fast. Instantaneous communication and instantaneous or taking-negative-time transportation is more what they do.

    “It’s only useful against enemies who don’t also have time travel.”

    No it’s only useful if the opponent can’t match it. How good is anti-spiral time travel?

    “They have not displayed a single thing better than the anti-spirals, and everything they can do equally, again, is weaker than what we’ve seen them already do while scaling themselves down to Team Dai-Gurren’s level.”

    What are the specific areas needed to beat the anti-spirals here? Numbers, speed, general firepower? If I know which specifically you’d like me to address I’ll try to.


    As for the feat with the “proto-xeelee” throwing “metaphorical switches” that changed the laws of physics:
    That was not the proto-xeelee. That was the federation of species with all consisted of spacetime defects. They later combined with baryonic coalitions and formed the proto-xeelee who are equal part descendants from these. From there the proto-xeelee engineered their own evolution and we have the Xeelee. So no, those feats are not applicable to this conversation. Although, I don’t see any reason why if the federation was involved changing physics would be barred because all that is given about this power is the vague remark of throwing a switch. None of this suggests that it relies on certain conditions at the beginning of the universe, and in addition the “switch” was thrown more than once and under different universal circumstances so it can’t be a matter of circumstance. The first time they did it they created inflation and split up the GUT forces, the second time they created the imbalance between matter and antimatter. The power isn’t just related to splitting up forces, it legitimately is presented as the ability to change universal rules.
    The current Xeelee don’t really do anything to this capacity. The only real physics-law changing is with their hyperdrive and the exclusion principle in construction material. They are certainly capable though. Look at the silver ghosts. Baby race here who changed planck’s constant and created an AI with infinite computing power within a FVC.

  83. Yatsukahagi February 1, 2015 at 8:53 pm -      #83

    “No it is not. I’m not saying “We saw the proto-xeelee do it, but not the current xeelee, so we don’t know if they can”, I’m saying “The xeelee did it once when it was advantageous, but they never showed the capacity to do it again, even when it would be advantageous.”

    Define “the capacity to do it again”. We are discussing the protoXeelee themselves, after all. I have seen nothing to indicate they magically lost the ability after performing it.

    “Furthermore, what the Xeelee did was split up the forces of the Grand-Unified-Theory Force (minus gravity) into the ones we know: electromagnetism, the strong nuclear force, and the weak nuclear force. As far as we know, they have no more Forces to split up, or the ones we have now can’t be split up any further. Either way, they have not demonstrated any capacity for the splitting of forces besides the one at the beginning of the universe.”

    They also created the lithium spike and the imbalance between matter and antimatter.

    “I dont understand that. Also it does not matter what they are or what they are made of. As long as the have a consciousness.”

    They’re not unlike faults in reality, bending the laws of physics.

    “What I mean is as soon as the battle begins it will be the first move he tries. As soon as ttgl got through his defencive dimension. He did this.”

    I’m more interested in how they are sucked into it in the first place.

    @jackn8r

    The actual feats themselves wouldn’t be particularly applicable in many situations, it’s the fact that it happened that counts. It does, however depend on how the races that eventually formed the Xeelee and the actual Xeelee correlate, though.

    Do you happen to have quotes of hyperdrives changing the laws of physics? I’m looking through my copy of Transcendent and having a hard time finding what I need.

  84. The Ultimate Overlord February 1, 2015 at 9:01 pm -      #84

    ” No it’s only useful if the opponent can’t match it. How good is anti-spiral time travel?”
    The Ashtangas were hiding in the past and future as a way to dodge. They aren’t even close to Granzombs in any way.

    ” Actually, one can make a pretty good argument the Xeelee are their Nightfighters. We have very little to draw distinction between. Of the top of my head, they’re defects in spacetime and quagma. That’s about the best we know.”

    You are going to need something to back that up.

  85. Tarbel February 2, 2015 at 4:07 am -      #85

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=vd22Qa7gqRo

    [Antispirals can blast energy with an area of effect of over 200 million light years in diameter and distance of over 500 million light years]
    The ending of Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann [SPOILERS] where the Antispirals use the infinity big bang storm by taking two giant galaxies (roughly half of the mecha’s sizes meaning about half of 10 million light years). It shoots out creating a blast dispersion probably at least a hundred times bigger than TTGL (~billion light year sizes) while shooting out multiple enormous galaxies that are tens of times bigger than TTGL at roughly 3.2E16 FTL (galaxies shoot out and travel a distance of at least 500 million light years in less than half a second) as a side effect.
    A character who sacrifices himself is broken down at a quantum level as he blocks the attack.

    [Antispiral’s attack can break things down by the quantum level, destruction down to protons, electrons, quarks, leptons, etc.]
    The character has his spiral energy awakened just as the main pilot Simon does. Upon being broken down at the quantum level, he became one with the energy of the infinity big bang storm and converted into a drill to be absorbed by TTGL. After TTGL absorbed the energy of the infinity big bang storm rivaling the big bang in the form of a drill, it was then able to fight evenly with the antispirals breaking each others weapons with each attack.


    [Antispirals take the energy of at least two big bangs to be matched with TTGL. Assuming that the energy at the start of the universe should be the same as the energy currently: the energy of the known universe is 4*10^69 joules according to www.physicsoftheuniverse.com/numbers.html
    So this means it takes at least twice the energy of an infinity big bang storm to initiate any actual damage to the antispirals, as the antispirals first lose the energy of the attack upon usage, and that energy is then used against it as a power boost along with the power already possessed by TTGL.

    [Antispiral entity himself shoots out massively FTL drill tentacles from the cockpit]
    See the video at 5:40. At 5:32 an overview of all the types of Lagann’s are shown. The distance between the Gurren Lagann and the antispiral’s head is still considerably far (many light years judging by size comparison) as it chucks the main head with Simon at it. The antispiral shoots tentacles which glance off the head which reaches him in seconds.



    www.youtube.com/watch?v=-JqG3L42cCs

    [Antispirals have way beyond spacetime breaking power]
    After transforming into Arc Gurren Lagann, Simon punches an enemy mecha with enough energy to open up a wormhole. This is the version of a mecha that is only 3 miles long and unimaginably weaker than TTGL let alone the antispiral’s mecha.

  86. jackn8r February 2, 2015 at 11:27 am -      #86

    “The actual feats themselves wouldn’t be particularly applicable in many situations, it’s the fact that it happened that counts. It does, however depend on how the races that eventually formed the Xeelee and the actual Xeelee correlate, though.”

    It wasn’t the Xeelee or proto-Xeelee though so it has no relevance.

    “Do you happen to have quotes of hyperdrives changing the laws of physics? I’m looking through my copy of Transcendent and having a hard time finding what I need.”

    ’Spinner-of-Rope, we think the Xeelee found a way to adjust some of those universal numbers. By changing the constants of physics–in a small region of space around itself–the hyperdrive can make spacetime unfurl, just a little.’-Ring

    “You are going to need something to back that up.”

    I don’t have the specific quotes but this is a fact from the books not an argument–they are their ships.

    @Tarbel
    Sorry if I missed it, but where does it say that Infinity Big Bang Storm actually equals the Big Bang in terms of energy? Should that not destroy the universe?

  87. Yatsukahagi February 2, 2015 at 12:53 pm -      #87

    “A conventional craft (Louise said) worked in a ’three-plus one’ dimensional spacetime–three spatial dimensions, plus one of time. And within those dimensions nature was described by a series of fundamental constants–the charge on the electron, the speed of light, the gravitational constant, Planck’s constant, and others.
    But–humans believed–physics was governed by the Spin (10) theory, which described symmetries among the forces of nature. And the symmetries needed to be expressed in higher dimensions than four.
    ’So, Spinner-of-Rope, there are more than three spatial dimension,’ Louise said. ’But the “extra dimensions” are compactified-’
    ’They’re what?’
    ’Collapsed down to the smallest possible scale–to the Planck scale, below which quantum physics and gravitation merge.’
    Once–just after the initial singularity–the forces of physics were one, and the Universe was fully multi-dimensional. Then the great expansion started.
    ’Three of the spatial dimensions expanded, rapidly, to the scales we see today. The other dimensions remained compactified.’
    ’Why did three dimensions expand? Why not four, or two, or one–or none at all?’
    Louise laughed. ’That’s a good question, Spinner. I wish I had a good answer.’
    ’Geometrically, three-dimensional spaces have some unique attributes. For instance, only in three dimensions is it possible for planets to have stable orbits governed by the central forces exerted by stars. Did you know that? Planets in a four-dimensional cosmos would drift into space, or spiral into their suns. So if life needs billions of years of a stable planetary environment, three dimensions are the only possibility. Matter isn’t stable in higher dimensions, even: the Schrodinger wave equation would have no bound solutions…And waves can propagate without distortion, only in three dimensions…..
    ’Remember, though, the extra dimensions are here, still, but they’re rolled up very tightly, into high-curvature tubes a Planck length across.’
    ’So we can’t see them.’
    ’No. But–and here’s the trick we think the Xeelee have exploited, Spinner–the extra dimensions do have an impact on our Universe. The curvature of these Planck tubes determines the value of the fundamental constants of physics. So the way the tubes are folded up determines things like the charge of an electron or the strength of gravity.’
    Spinner nodded slowly. ’All right. But what has this to do with the hyperdrive?’
    ’Spinner-of-Rope, we think the Xeelee found a way to adjust some of those universal numbers. By changing the constants of physics–in a small region of space around itself–the hyperdrive can make spacetime unfurl, just a little.’ Louise lifted her face. ’Then the nightfighter can move, a short distance, through one of the higher dimensions.
    ’Think of a sheet of paper, Spinner. If you’re confined to two dimensions–to crawling over the paper–then it will take you a long time to get from one side to the other. But if you could move through the third dimension–though the paper–then you could move with huge apparent speed from one place to another.’”~Bolder’s Ring

    Here’s one of at least several quotes on hyperdrives locally altering the laws of physics.

    “You are going to need something to back that up.”

    For the makeup of the Xeelee? It’s largely discussed in the Exultant quote above. For instance:

    “They still relied on the primordial black holes, formed in the earliest ages after the singularity;
    they used the holes’ twisted knots of spacetime to peel off their spacetime-defect “wings,” for
    instance. But now the primordial holes were becoming rare: leaking mass-energy through
    Hawking radiation, they were evaporating. By the time humanity arose, the smallest remaining
    holes were the mass of the Moon.

    It was devastating for the Xeelee, as if for humans the planet Earth had evaporated from under
    their feet.”~Exultant

    “[Antispirals can blast energy with an area of effect of over 200 million light years in diameter and distance of over 500 million light years]”

    Throwing large amounts of energy at XCM (Xeelee Construction Material, primary make up of Nighfighters) is an outstandingly terrible way to deal with it. In fact, the more energy you throw at it, the larger it grows!

    “[Antispiral’s attack can break things down by the quantum level, destruction down to protons, electrons, quarks, leptons, etc.]”

    Xeelee Nightfighters are literally new spacetimes. XCM is a quark Bose-Einstein Condensate. Xeelee wings are made out of spacetime defects.

    “[Antispirals take the energy of at least two big bangs to be matched with TTGL. Assuming that the energy at the start of the universe should be the same as the energy currently: the energy of the known universe is 4*10^69 joules according to www.physicsoftheuniverse.com/numbers.html
    So this means it takes at least twice the energy of an infinity big bang storm to initiate any actual damage to the antispirals, as the antispirals first lose the energy of the attack upon usage, and that energy is then used against it as a power boost along with the power already possessed by TTGL.”

    The Big Bang didn’t even necessarily produce a yield of that stature, it may have been a sub-gigaton event. But I understand this matters little.

    “[Antispiral entity himself shoots out massively FTL drill tentacles from the cockpit]
    See the video at 5:40. At 5:32 an overview of all the types of Lagann’s are shown. The distance between the Gurren Lagann and the antispiral’s head is still considerably far (many light years judging by size comparison) as it chucks the main head with Simon at it. The antispiral shoots tentacles which glance off the head which reaches him in seconds.”

    Xeelee hyperdrives can cross 10,000 lightyears within a picosecond. They’re not exactly outmatched when it comes to FTL here.

    “www.youtube.com/watch?v=-JqG3L42cCs

    [Antispirals have way beyond spacetime breaking power]”

    And the same could be said of even basic Xeelee technology.

    “It wasn’t the Xeelee or proto-Xeelee though so it has no relevance.”

    They eventually merged into becoming the Xeelee.

  88. Tarbel February 2, 2015 at 4:15 pm -      #88

    @jackn8er
    I put a youtube link in my post where some pilots/mechanics of TTGL state that the energy of the attack rivals the energy at the birth of the universe.



    @Yatsukahagi

    “Throwing large amounts of energy at XCM (Xeelee Construction Material, primary make up of Nighfighters) is an outstandingly terrible way to deal with it. In fact, the more energy you throw at it, the larger it grows!”

    Does that mean you are arguing that XCM has no limit to the energy and rate of energy it can absorb? Because at energies which rival the big bang, I think no-limits fallacy can be called.
    Also, I read that “The only things known to be able to damage it are magnetic monopoles and gravitational singularities” which means blackholes are known to damage XCM.


    “Xeelee Nightfighters are literally new spacetimes. XCM is a quark Bose-Einstein Condensate. Xeelee wings are made out of spacetime defects.”

    As I’d shown, the city sized Arc Gurren Lagann was able to break spacetime. The Super Galaxy Gurren Lagann also can attack through all points on a time axis and hit the 10th and 11th dimensions, or something like that IIRC. I haven’t found a youtube video of it yet though.


    “The Big Bang didn’t even necessarily produce a yield of that stature, it may have been a sub-gigaton event. But I understand this matters little.”

    Yeah it may technically not have even released any energy, just expanded space. But the energy at the beginning of the universe may be slightly more than the current one as a small amount of energy is lost to gravitational pull on photons (according to some sites I’ve read).


    “Xeelee hyperdrives can cross 10,000 lightyears within a picosecond. They’re not exactly outmatched when it comes to FTL here.”

    From a spacebattles wiki: “Hyperdrive

    The Xeelee hyperdrive functions by moving the ship from one point in space to another instantaneously. Though the travel time between points is zero, there is a short pause between each jump required to compute the parameters of the next jump. This pause was a couple seconds when a Xeelee Nightfighter was flown by Jim Bolder, however it is implied that Xeelee pilots operate their craft much more efficiently. This hyperdrive can cross at least 100 parsecs in a single jump if required, however the Xeelee have been known to use much smaller jumps tactically, even in combat. The hyperdrive does not rely on the craft being entirely made of Xeelee construction material, as an instance of one jumping with another ship tied to its back was shown in Ring.”
    Where a parsec is 3.08567758 × 10^16 meters. A light year is 9.456*10^15 meters. So if this information is right, then the Xeelee has been shown to teleport (not move) to a distance of ~300+ light years.

  89. Yatsukahagi February 2, 2015 at 6:14 pm -      #89

    “Does that mean you are arguing that XCM has no limit to the energy and rate of energy it can absorb? Because at energies which rival the big bang, I think no-limits fallacy can be called.”

    It’s hardly a fallacy. You can mathematically, scientifically, and logically define universes without limits, and this is as much a ‘no-limits fallacy’ as claiming that on the admin forcing any two opponents into a match.

    “Also, I read that “The only things known to be able to damage it are magnetic monopoles and gravitational singularities” which means blackholes are known to damage XCM.”

    That source was mistaken. Refer to post #87.

    “As I’d shown, the city sized Arc Gurren Lagann was able to break spacetime. The Super Galaxy Gurren Lagann also can attack through all points on a time axis and hit the 10th and 11th dimensions, or something like that IIRC. I haven’t found a youtube video of it yet though.”

    I’m aware of that, I was simply responding solely to your point there.

    “Yeah it may technically not have even released any energy, just expanded space. But the energy at the beginning of the universe may be slightly more than the current one as a small amount of energy is lost to gravitational pull on photons (according to some sites I’ve read).”

    High end estimates for the Big Bang yields that I’ve seen are somewhere in the range of 10e72 joules.

    “From a spacebattles wiki: “Hyperdrive
    The Xeelee hyperdrive functions by moving the ship from one point in space to another instantaneously. Though the travel time between points is zero, there is a short pause between each jump required to compute the parameters of the next jump. This pause was a couple seconds when a Xeelee Nightfighter was flown by Jim Bolder, however it is implied that Xeelee pilots operate their craft much more efficiently. This hyperdrive can cross at least 100 parsecs in a single jump if required, however the Xeelee have been known to use much smaller jumps tactically, even in combat. The hyperdrive does not rely on the craft being entirely made of Xeelee construction material, as an instance of one jumping with another ship tied to its back was shown in Ring.”
    Where a parsec is 3.08567758 × 10^16 meters. A light year is 9.456*10^15 meters. So if this information is right, then the Xeelee has been shown to teleport (not move) to a distance of ~300+ light years.”

    Even solely drawing from Jim’s appearance that would be false- he crossed the universe within two weeks. A wikia is typically a sub-standard source, anyway.

    I’ll bring up real quotes in a bit.

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