ARC Troopers vs Kasrkin

S vs K

Suggested by itcheyness

Here’s another battle between two powerful franchises as we have the ARC Troopers of  Star Wars going up against Kasrkins from Warhammer 40K

A squad of 10 ARC troopers and a squad of 10 Kasrkin are hunting each other through the battle damaged streets of New Mombosa. They start on opposite sides of the city which has several weapons caches filled with weapons and equipment for each side. The teams know the location of their own weapon caches, but not that of their opponents.

 

Which side emerges victorious?

 

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97 Comments on "ARC Troopers vs Kasrkin"

  1. VulkanMatath January 19, 2015 at 10:02 am -      #1

    First.

    For the moment, I’m leaning towards the Kasrkins, as 40k weapons & armor are slightly better than star wars weapons & armor, and the special weapons Kasrkins have access to are very powerful (meltas & plasmaguns in particular). What kinds of special weapons would be in the trooper’s supply crates?

  2. General Joshua Hundell of the Trans-Dimentional Fleet January 19, 2015 at 10:06 am -      #2

    Not much of a sw junky but i do like arc troopers so ill just wait and see

  3. GMoney January 19, 2015 at 10:49 am -      #3

    What equipment are each side armed with? Does everyone have basic gear or do a certain number of the squads have special weaponry? Right now, I’m gonna go with The ARC Troopers. Kasrkin are normal men who became veterans. ARCa are genetically modified to be stronger, faster and smarter than other clones, who are already in peak Physcial condition. Their kind of like the Spartans of Star Wars. Not to mention they have better equipment than the Kasrkin.

  4. Friendlysociopath January 19, 2015 at 11:01 am -      #4

    Leaning towards the ARC troopers atm. If they can get to a weapons crate they have all sort of goodies like:
    starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Reciprocating_quad_blaster
    starwars.wikia.com/wiki/PLX-1_portable_missile_launcher
    starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Z-6_rotary_blaster_cannon

    The ARC troopers just seem to have more equipment in a wider variety. Standard troops have stuff like antipersonnel mines and EMP grenades.

    Also, I’m looking at Carapace Armour right now- good for small arms fire, but anything heavier gets through?

  5. GMoney January 19, 2015 at 11:10 am -      #5

    “Also, I’m looking at Carapace Armour right now- good for small arms fire, but anything heavier gets through?”

    It’s the next step up from Carapace Armor. It’s better at tanking Lasbolts, but is still useless against bolt rounds and Blasters are closer to bolt rounds than Lasrounds in firepower.

  6. pimpmage January 19, 2015 at 11:17 am -      #6

    The karsk get some spotlight in one of my eisenhorn novels. Those guys scare the shit out of a veteran laser-deflecting inquisitor. I can get quotes tonight some time.

  7. Rookie January 19, 2015 at 11:48 am -      #7

    @pimpmage

    “The karsk get some spotlight in one of my eisenhorn novels. Those guys scare the shit out of a veteran laser-deflecting inquisitor. I can get quotes tonight some time.”

    I can help:

    “General Neve and a six-man squad of Cadian Elite Shock, impassive troopers in winter camo armour, prepping matt-white lasrifles and stubbers in the crew-bay.”

    “My staff are… worried. These men are Kasrkin?’

    ‘Yes.’

    ‘Their reputation precedes them.’

    ‘So did yours.’

    ‘Good point. But, anyway…’

    Neve looked round at the row of Cadian elite. ‘Captain Echbar!’ she shouted, raising her voice above the roar of the buffet and the thrusters.

    ‘Inquisitor general ma’am!’ said the warrior on the end.

    ‘Inquisitor Eisenhorn wants reassurance that you are the best of the best and will be careful to watch the backsides of him and his band.’
    Six snow-visored faces turned to look at me.

    ‘We’ve logged the bio-spoors of you and your company into our sighting auspexes, sir,’ Echbar announced to me. ‘We couldn’t shoot them now even if we wanted to.’”

    “Echbar and his Kasrkin charged in past us to engage.

    In truth, I may say now that they were somehow more terrifying than the daemonhost. For Prophaniti was a supernatural thing, and one expected it to be horrifying.

    The Kasrkin were just men. It made their actions all the more astonishing. Six white blurs, they fell upon the cultists, lasguns barking at close range. They wasted no shots. One shot, one kill. A cultist fled past me, and a Kasrkin swung to bring him down.
    His weapon refused to fire as its sight-auspex detected my bio-spoor in the range-field. A second later, I was no longer blocking the shot and the weapon spat.

    The fleeing cultist tumbled over headlong in the brush.”

    “The next few seconds are burned in my memory. I will never see such heroism again, I am sure. Captain Echbar and two of his Kasrkin troopers assaulted Prophaniti from the rear. Their lasguns wouldn’t fire because Bequin and I were in their range-field.

    Echbar body-tackled the daemonhost, smashing it away from us. Prophaniti hurled him aside, and then incinerated the second Kasrkin mid-leap with its eyes. The third jammed his Cadian bayonet up to the hilt in Prophaniti’s breastbone. Fire exploded back from the wound, down the trooper’s arm and engulfed him.

    He fell back screaming as Echbar came in again, a ragged hole in his cheek and throat. His knife, clenched double-handed, split Prophaniti open down the back bone. The warp-energies that boiled out blew Echbar apart.

    Screaming, Prophaniti writhed away through the air.

    I knew it wasn’t dead. I knew it couldn’t really die.

    But the Cadian elite had given me an opening by sacrificing their lives. They had fallen in the service of the God-Emperor, which is what every Cadian is born to do.”

    As you can see there is nothing really impressive about them. They are fighting against not trained opponents and once they were put against some real opponent (daemon) they all died. Nothing to be impressed about, since all heroes (if I remember right) and other inquisitor were still alive at the end of the battle. Only Kasrkins died.

  8. VulkanMatath January 19, 2015 at 12:11 pm -      #8

    @friendlysociopath
    Carapace armour is the third best armour the imperium has, after power armour and terminator armor.
    @Rookie
    This is not really a good representation of how the Kasrkins would perform against the troopers. They were fighting a daemon. I highly doubt that ARC troopers would fare any better against a daemonhost.
    @GMoney
    I would personally say that Commandoes are the spartans of star wars. ARCs would be the ODST’s or spartan 3’s (From the books, not reach).

  9. Rookie January 19, 2015 at 12:15 pm -      #9

    @VulkanMatath

    “This is not really a good representation of how the Kasrkins would perform against the troopers. They were fighting a daemon. I highly doubt that ARC troopers would fare any better against a daemonhost.”

    We don’t know if ARC would do better or worse.
    We do however know that Kasrkins were only good against not trained opponents and once they were against something more dangerous all they could do is die, unlike heroes.
    I only point that this is a bad result. If Kasrkins wants to win here they better have some other feats aside from those above. Agaisnt tyranids, trained chaos troops, maybe even against chaos marines… against anyone who have military training and/or skills, so we can start to compare ARC and Kasrkins.

  10. pimpmage January 19, 2015 at 12:19 pm -      #10

    If you don’t see their complete fearlessness as a plus, you may be blind. I am sure this isn’t the only book with these guys, but its the only one I know of off the top of my head.

  11. Rookie January 19, 2015 at 12:21 pm -      #11

    @pimpmage

    “If you don’t see their complete fearlessness as a plus”

    Just being fearlessness won’t win this match for them. I am not against them winning, but they need better feats for that, first of all.

  12. VulkanMatath January 19, 2015 at 12:27 pm -      #12

    Ture enough. Does anyone have feats for Kasrkins other than the one from the eisenhorne novel?

  13. GMoney January 19, 2015 at 12:35 pm -      #13

    “I would personally say that Commandoes are the spartans of star wars. ARCs would be the ODST’s or spartan 3’s (From the books, not reach).”

    ARC Troopers are better than Commandos, so…

    “If you don’t see their complete fearlessness as a plus, you may be blind. I am sure this isn’t the only book with these guys, but its the only one I know of off the top of my head.”

    ARCs are trained to act before they think. Not only that, but all Clones are pre-programmed to be utterly loyal. We’ve never seen Clone Troopers break, and ARC troopers’ psychological training is even better.

    “Ture enough. Does anyone have feats for Kasrkins other than the one from the eisenhorne novel?”

    Besides being called better than normal Cadians in multiple sources, I don’t know of any others.

  14. Friendlysociopath January 19, 2015 at 12:37 pm -      #14

    Just theorizing atm, the Kasrkin are a guard regiment right? As in their job is literally defense-based?

    If so, being transported to new territory should be more of a detriment to them than the ARC troopers that are used to being sent to other places.

    Granted it’s just a destroyed city which is pretty mundane by both side’s standards.

    In a game of stealth… 40K Imperium really isn’t that big on stealth is it?

    Edit: And just adding this in- don’t the ARC soldiers have a massive range advantage?

  15. GMoney January 19, 2015 at 12:41 pm -      #15

    “In a game of stealth… 40K Imperium really isn’t that big on stealth is it?”

    The only IG Regiment big into stealth are the Catachan Devils but the Cadians aren’t particularly stealthy.

  16. VulkanMatath January 19, 2015 at 12:52 pm -      #16

    @GMoney
    “ARC Troopers are better than Commandos, so…”

    Really? Well…I feel dumb…

    @Friendlysociopath
    Kasrkins are spec-ops troops for the cadian regiments, so I would imagine that they could be stealthy if they wanted to.

  17. Friendlysociopath January 19, 2015 at 2:23 pm -      #17

    Kasrkins are spec-ops troops for the cadian regiments, so I would imagine that they could be stealthy if they wanted to.

    40K is really not big on stealth, it’s borderline non-existent, you’re going to need something to back that up.
    Especially for a guard unit that is permanently stationed on a Fortress World. Their entire job is to be defensive units, where as the ARC troops are purposed to go to new places and find enemies.

  18. nsl98 January 19, 2015 at 2:32 pm -      #18

    Got that right. It’s even in their name: Advanced RECON Commando. The troopers are practically trained for this thing. Go to place for first time. Reconnaissance. Take out enemy. I’m with the Clones on this one.

  19. Rookie January 19, 2015 at 2:34 pm -      #19

    @Friendlysociopath

    “40K is really not big on stealth, it’s borderline non-existent, you’re going to need something to back that up.”

    Night Lords are pretty good when it comes to stealth (in novels at least), but it seems they are only IoM units (well former IoM unit) except assasins who work with stealth.

  20. pimpmage January 19, 2015 at 2:37 pm -      #20

    Karsk do combat outside of defending the planet. They are spec ops for the most war torn planet in the galaxy. In the eisenhorn books, the karsk lead swat style raids on a daily basis to keep themselves sharp. Their planet and its proximity to the eye of terror makes a lot of people go mad and start cult activities like everyday.

  21. pimpmage January 19, 2015 at 2:39 pm -      #21

    Any space marine scouts are amazing at stealth.And every space marine trains up through the scouts for like a decade before their their initiation. They would all know about stealth tactics. There is the raven guard and tanith first and only do tons is stealth stuff.

  22. GMoney January 19, 2015 at 3:05 pm -      #22

    “Karsk do combat outside of defending the planet. They are spec ops for the most war torn planet in the galaxy. In the eisenhorn books, the karsk lead swat style raids on a daily basis to keep themselves sharp. Their planet and its proximity to the eye of terror makes a lot of people go mad and start cult activities like everyday.”

    Being in a Swat Raid dosent require Stealth.

  23. pimpmage January 19, 2015 at 3:20 pm -      #23

    You are missing the point completely. The swat bit was separate from the stealth bit.

  24. Agent January 19, 2015 at 3:36 pm -      #24

    What version of the ARC Troopers are being used? Because there are three, the Null-Arcs, Alpha-Class ARCs, and the normal ARC Troopers that were recruited from the Republic Army.

  25. felixjeager January 19, 2015 at 4:28 pm -      #25

    Everyone forgets, Gaunts Ghosts: First and Only, a Tanith regiment, they may not be karskin, but they are pretty dang stealthy, basicly melting into the terrain.

    Also, Karskin don’t just use just las guns, they use Hotshot/Hellguns, both have very powerful shots, and the Hellguns have nearly limitless ammo.

  26. Friendlysociopath January 19, 2015 at 4:41 pm -      #26

    My point was the Kasrkins are specifically made to deal with threats on one planet. Adapting to new surroundings would be detrimental for them while it’s what the ARC troops are used to.

    The standard ARC loadout also gives more options than Kasrkins, meaning they can change their tactics relatively easily compared to the Kasrkins.

    I doubt either team would just straight-up fight one another 10v10 in a single battle to the death. With any significant losses either side would fall back and regroup.

    Also, Karskin don’t just use just las guns, they use Hotshot/Hellguns, both have very powerful shots, and the Hellguns have nearly limitless ammo.

    Could someone tell me the range of those btw? I’m reading that some of the basic ARC weapons can fire 10 kilometers at max power, that’s quite a range advantage from what I know of Imperium weapons.

  27. GMoney January 19, 2015 at 4:48 pm -      #27

    “You are missing the point completely. The swat bit was separate from the stealth bit.”

    Spec ops only requires a stealthy entry, they don’t require stealth fighting.

    “Everyone forgets, Gaunts Ghosts: First and Only, a Tanith regiment, they may not be karskin, but they are pretty dang stealthy, basicly melting into the terrain.
    Also, Karskin don’t just use just las guns, they use Hotshot/Hellguns, both have very powerful shots, and the Hellguns have nearly limitless ammo.”

    They are specifically a stealth regiment. The Cadians are the vanilla regiment, they don’t have a disposition towards stealth. The Hot Shot Lasguns are more powerful than a Lasgun but they have less power than a Bolter. They also have a higher chance to malfunction and have less ammo per clip. We also have almost no examples of Hot Shot Lasguns in use other than “their stronger than a Lasgun” And Hellguns do not have limitless ammo.

  28. Syncourt January 19, 2015 at 6:08 pm -      #28

    Just popping on here to rectify a few things.

    It’s been pretty well established that Lasguns are, at the very least, equivalent (if not superior) to Blasters. Now, Kasrkin squads’ primary weapons are Hellguns, aka super-powered Lasguns.

    The Cadians are definitely not a “vanilla” regiment. They’re the regiment that every other IG regiment trains to be. Take the already superior Cadian soldier and choose the best of the best of the best from them and you have the Kasrkins.

    We’ve had a few variations of this battle multiple times (i.e. Death Korps vs 501st) and the IGs have won every time. That’s where I’m putting my money.

  29. Soulerous January 19, 2015 at 6:21 pm -      #29

    I recognize your visit and ask for more.

  30. GMoney January 19, 2015 at 6:58 pm -      #30

    “It’s been pretty well established that Lasguns are, at the very least, equivalent (if not superior) to Blasters. Now, Kasrkin squads’ primary weapons are Hellguns, aka super-powered Lasguns.”

    Lasguns, in general, have been shown to put holes in people and take arms off. Blasters have been shown to core people’s stomachs and punch between fist and torso sized holes in durasteel (a material stronger than steel) and other building materials and ARC Troopers use superior blasters. I’d say Blasters are more comparable with Hellguns though Hellguns have problems of their own.

    “The Cadians are definitely not a “vanilla” regiment. They’re the regiment that every other IG regiment trains to be. Take the already superior Cadian soldier and choose the best of the best of the best from them and you have the Kasrkins.”

    Best of the best is arguable. Their more akin to The Ultramarines of The Imperial Guard.

    “We’ve had a few variations of this battle multiple times (i.e. Death Korps vs 501st) and the IGs have won every time. That’s where I’m putting my money.”

    I’ve read through those threads, and all the ones that got commented on post 2011, which was supposedly the age of 40k being wanked, (and from what I’ve read those observations seem to be correct) came to the conclusion of an SW victory or were incomplete.

  31. GMoney January 19, 2015 at 7:07 pm -      #31

    Hmm, my comment is awaiting moderation.

  32. Neon Lord January 19, 2015 at 7:18 pm -      #32

    First, if I mention Stormtroopers, their feats apply to Karskin, seeing as the latter is the Cadian name for them, and Cadians are generally seen as better than other guard.

    “As you can see there is nothing really impressive about them. They are fighting against not trained opponents and once they were put against some real opponent (daemon) they all died. Nothing to be impressed about, since all heroes (if I remember right) and other inquisitor were still alive at the end of the battle. Only Kasrkins died.”

    They were going into close-combat with a Daemon, which is not an easy opponent by any means. Friendlies were in the field of fire so they couldn’t shoot, limiting their options. Given the circumstances, they did well not to be incinerated instantly.

    ““Also, I’m looking at Carapace Armour right now- good for small arms fire, but anything heavier gets through?””

    The same could be same for ARC Trooper and clone armour in general.

    And a quote “Protected by rigin arma-plas and reinforced ceramite plates, Storm Troopers can wade through a torrent of small-arms fire that would kill a normal Guardsmen outright.” IG Codex, 5th ed.

    “ARCa are genetically modified to be stronger, faster and smarter than other clones, who are already in peak Physcial condition.”

    The only major physical difference of ARC troopers from normal clones is their extremely high degree of Jango-like independence, and the additional ton of training they did. And those were only first-gen ARCs. Later on in the clone wars, even normal clones were being promoted to ARC troopers, such as Fives and Echos (who shall be sorely missed D:).

    ARC troopers aren’t actually trained to fight in teams or squads, so they have a disadvantage working together in groups.

    “ARCs are trained to act before they think. Not only that, but all Clones are pre-programmed to be utterly loyal. We’ve never seen Clone Troopers break, and ARC troopers’ psychological training is even better.”

    Stormtroopers go through…. a lot in training. There’s quite a lot of material for it. 40k is a lot more grimdark than SW, and as such psychological impacts are far worse. I mean, there’s nothing that scary really about droids.

    I know that Kamino has a special obstacle course filled with rotting bodies and bits of bantha carcasses and organs everywhere, but Stormtroopers go through far more. Like having to kill their best friend as part of their final training.

    “40K is really not big on stealth, it’s borderline non-existent, you’re going to need something to back that up.”

    Ignoring the fact that this is completely wrong because Raven Guard, Imperial Guard scouts, SM Scouts, scouts of every race, assassins of every race, Tyranid vangaurd organisms, Stealthsuits, and half the Dark Eldar race, I will address Stormtroopers
    “Storm troopers are taught to perform covert operations, spearhead assaults into fortified positions and storm key installations. They can deploy ahead of the rest of an army infiltrating behind enemy lines to engage the foe and cause maximum confusion.” IG Codex, 5th ed.

    And one of the special operations specialisations in the rules is Reconnaissance.

    I don’t see why Karskin shouldn’t get special weapons
    “The Kasrkin often carry special weapons suited to their assault role on the battlefield and
    exceptional marksmanship, including plasma guns, meltaguns, grenade launchers, and flamers. True to their nature as Grenadiers, the Kasrkin also carry both frag and krak grenades
    and are extensively trained in the use of these weapons. Some chroniclers amongst the Tactica Imperialis have recorded a number of difficult fire fights in the Kasrkin’s history resolved by the creative application of grenades.”

    “Just theorizing atm, the Kasrkin are a guard regiment right? As in their job is literally defense-based?”

    When the hell were guard defence-based? Thats the PDF. The only thing Guard do is get shoved around to various planets to launch assaults/hold the line. Stormtroopers and Karskin even more so, since they are routinely deployed as company or even squad strength attachments to armies conducting assaults on planets.

    99.9% of guardsmen, once leaving their home planet, never set see it again. Their training covers environmental conditions of every sort.

    “Could someone tell me the range of those btw? I’m reading that some of the basic ARC weapons can fire 10 kilometers at max power, that’s quite a range advantage from what I know of Imperium weapons.”

    This would be useful if its in an open plain (and if it were true of course, not that I don’t believe you), but New Bombasa is a city. A Hellgun has enough range for any firefight there unless it was down a reaallly long street.

    Are we agreed that Hellguns can pierce ARC trooper armour easy? They are designed to pierce SM armour, so I don’t see reinforced clone armour standing much of a chance.

    “The Hot Shot Lasguns are more powerful than a Lasgun but they have less power than a Bolter”

    Less damage potential, but far superior armour penetration.

    “They also have a higher chance to malfunction and have less ammo per clip.”

    No idea where you got the malfunction thing from, and hot-shot lasguns use backpack power sources most of the time.

    In response to the first set of weapon links for ARCs, Hot-shot volley guns are a Karskin special weapon like the gatling blaster, and if SW battlefront was anything to go by, clone missile launchers had practically zero blast radius.

    I shall see if I can pull out novel passages of Stormtroopers in action. There are quite a few, just needs a bit of searching to find them.

  33. Neon Lord January 19, 2015 at 7:37 pm -      #33

    “Hmm, my comment is awaiting moderation.”

    Hmm, so is mine.

  34. GMoney January 19, 2015 at 9:59 pm -      #34

    So I tried reposting my comment and it’s now awaiting moderation again. What’s the deal? It dosent have any links or excessive profanity.

  35. pimpmage January 19, 2015 at 10:56 pm -      #35

    “Cadian-pattern Hellgun
    Associated with the fortress world of Cadia, this pattern of hellgun has been adopted by Storm Trooper companies from as far away as the Calixis Sector. These weapons are powerful enough to cut through power armour and feature a built-in targeter with space for an additional sight. They can be connected to small 10kg backpack units designed to fit under standard field packs or the larger 15kg backpack power packs which provide additional shots.[9]”
    9: Dark Heresy: Ascension, pg. 138

    Holy shit, these are the weapons the karsk use. They are from the planet Cadia too. They can pierce power armor….

  36. Neon Lord January 19, 2015 at 11:32 pm -      #36

    “Holy shit, these are the weapons the karsk use. They are from the planet Cadia too. They can pierce power armor….”

    That’s the point of hot-shot laser weapons. They can penetrate SM power armour, which makes them effective against CSM. ARC Trooper armour doesn’t stand a chance.

  37. Amored Dragon January 20, 2015 at 4:30 am -      #37

    40k kasrkin are essentially better storm troopers correct? Thus we can give them all the training and equipment that the storm troopers normally have access to. We aren’t counting storm troopers from any specific world because they usually have equipment specifically for them. But we can use the basics and any more information that can be found for kasrkin.

  38. Total_Overkill January 20, 2015 at 5:17 am -      #38

    GMoney-“Not only that, but all Clones are pre-programmed to be utterly loyal. We’ve never seen Clone Troopers break, and ARC troopers’ psychological training is even better.”

    … remember all those Clone wars episodes where Clones broke, betrayed their brothers, turned traitor, went AWOL, and showed immense cowardice? Cause i do -_-

  39. GrandMaster January 20, 2015 at 4:59 pm -      #39

    “They were going into close-combat with a Daemon, which is not an easy opponent by any means. Friendlies were in the field of fire so they couldn’t shoot, limiting their options. Given the circumstances, they did well not to be incinerated instantly.”

    Can you provide feats on the daemon being effective in close combat? Because from that passage it seems like the daemonhost wasn’t very good in CC. Also, ARC troopers have been in similar situations before, such as when a squad of them and some Jedi were fighting Grevious, who is much more dangerous than all but the most powerful daemonhost.

    “The same could be same for ARC Trooper and clone armour in general.”

    Clone Armor was resilient enough to absorb a blaster bolt, which has been shown to be stronger than a Lasgun, with only minimal injury, sometimes the trooper could even shrug it off but other times it required medical attention or could knock them out. And while a shot from a blaster cannon would most likely be fatal, ARC Armor is much stronger than normal clone armor.

    “The only major physical difference of ARC troopers from normal clones is their extremely high degree of Jango-like independence, and the additional ton of training they did. And those were only first-gen ARCs. Later on in the clone wars, even normal clones were being promoted to ARC troopers, such as Fives and Echos (who shall be sorely missed D:).”

    Actually, ARC Troopers were enhanced in the embryonic stage to be stronger than normal clones and more intelligent.

    “ARC troopers aren’t actually trained to fight in teams or squads, so they have a disadvantage working together in groups.”

    No, they are trained to fight at squad levels or as a solo operative. What they weren’t trained for was fighting on a big scale in a battle, but they were most definitely trained for Squad level combat, which is what this match is.

    “Stormtroopers go through…. a lot in training. There’s quite a lot of material for it. 40k is a lot more grimdark than SW, and as such psychological impacts are far worse. I mean, there’s nothing that scary really about droids.

    I know that Kamino has a special obstacle course filled with rotting bodies and bits of bantha carcasses and organs everywhere, but Stormtroopers go through far more. Like having to kill their best friend as part of their final training.”

    Clones are made and train their entire lives for war for 10 years. They are all peak human, being made out of the same genome, and have upgrades to their bone structure. Storm Troopers are orphans picked up off the streets. In the Schola they learn other, non war related things also which means their training isn’t as effective. Most of the article on Storm Trooper and Schola Progenium training focuses on the drill abbots, who don’t seem anymore harsh than a drill sergeant. And Clones fight each other aswell, not to the death but they still spar. Fighting to the death is silly and a waste of resources.

    “When the hell were guard defence-based? Thats the PDF. The only thing Guard do is get shoved around to various planets to launch assaults/hold the line. Stormtroopers and Karskin even more so, since they are routinely deployed as company or even squad strength attachments to armies conducting assaults on planets.”

    I think he means that because the Imperial Guard are mostly sent to defend imperial planets, where all buildings are built the same and look the same, they would have a harder time adapting to the environment as ARC troopers would, who often go into unfamiliar places.

    “Are we agreed that Hellguns can pierce ARC trooper armour easy? They are designed to pierce SM armour, so I don’t see reinforced clone armour standing much of a chance.

    “ess damage potential, but far superior armour penetration.”

    Hellguns won’t have a problem penetrating, but neither will the advanced Blasters that ARC Troopers carry have a problem with Carapace Armor either. However, Hot Shots will have a problem killing as it takes a straight shot to the head or major organ to kill someone with a Lasgun and thanks to an ARC’s medical kit, they will be able to get back in the fight after being shot, which is a problem Storm Troopers have because their backpack is made up of the power battery for the Hellgun and dosent have medical supplies.

    “No idea where you got the malfunction thing from, and hot-shot lasguns use backpack power sources most of the time.”

    The barrel will eventually overheat after extended use, a problem that normal Lasguns don’t have.

    “In response to the first set of weapon links for ARCs, Hot-shot volley guns are a Karskin special weapon like the gatling blaster, and if SW battlefront was anything to go by, clone missile launchers had practically zero blast radius.”

    We also see missile launchers making huge explosions in the Empire At War game, I chalk it up to game mechanics.

    “… remember all those Clone wars episodes where Clones broke, betrayed their brothers, turned traitor, went AWOL, and showed immense cowardice? Cause i do -_-”

    Clones never broke. Retreating from battle under orders or falling back from almost firefight under orders is not breaking.

  40. GrandMaster January 20, 2015 at 5:00 pm -      #40

    Ok my comment is awaiting moderation again…

  41. GrandMaster January 20, 2015 at 5:01 pm -      #41

    This is starting to get annoying, I thought comments were only moderated if they had a bunch of hyperlinks in them or were profane. Not sure what’s going on.

  42. Neon Lord January 20, 2015 at 5:05 pm -      #42

    Posts came through^

    “ARC troopers aren’t actually trained to fight in teams or squads, so they have a disadvantage working together in groups.”

    Ignore this part of my post. After further reading, it now seems quite untrue.

    “Blasters have been shown to core people’s stomachs and punch between fist and torso sized holes in durasteel (a material stronger than steel)”

    In the movies? I really don’t think so. Or in the Clone Wars series either.

    “ARC Troopers use superior blasters.”

    Only the Westar can be considered an improvement over the standard DC-15 series of blasters, and that’s because of the underslung grenade launcher rather than any increase of blaster power.

  43. GrandMaster January 20, 2015 at 5:48 pm -      #43

    “In the movies? I really don’t think so. Or in the Clone Wars series either.

    Only the Westar can be considered an improvement over the standard DC-15 series of blasters, and that’s because of the underslung grenade launcher rather than any increase of blaster power.”

    The DC-15A left .5 meter wide holes in ferroconcrete and the Westar M5 Blaster could penetrate the armor of Droid Assault Tanks and was considered as powerful as the DC-15A but easier to aim. In the Movies we see blasters create Fist-stomach sized holes in droids and walls.

  44. ExoticJoe January 20, 2015 at 6:43 pm -      #44

    A standard kasrkin amarment:

    Hotshot Lasgun (Lucius Pattern) – Sometimes also known as Hellguns, “hot-shot” weapons are almost exclusively used by high-ranking Imperial officers and elite forces who favour the higher power provided by these weapons over the higher rate of fire but poorer penetration power of the Imperial Guard’s standard-issue laser weapons. While Hellguns are rarely seen employed in the Imperial Guard outside of the elite Storm Trooper units, Hellpistols can be seen in use among many members of the Imperial Guard’s officer corps and among agents of the Inquisition where their greater power often means the difference between life and death.
    4 Charge Packs for Hotshot Lasgun – Charge packs are powerful batteries used almost exclusively by Imperial laser weapons. The cost of a charge pack varies depending on the class of the weapon. In all cases, it provides shots equal to the weapon’s full clip value.
    Combat Knife – This one-handed melee implement is the ubiquitous back-up weapon for warriors all across the Imperium, be they lowly hive scum or the elite soldiers of a Planetary Governor. Some, such as the Catachan Fighting Knife, are designed for a specific purpose, whilst others are more generic in nature.
    3 Frag Grenades – Frag Grenades use a combustible charge and special fillers of shrapnel fragments which make them potent anti-personnel weapons. Imperial Frag Grenades are roughly the size of a clenched fist and covered with a heavily notched shell, both to increase the shrapnel produced and provide a more secure grip for throwing.
    3 Krak Grenades – Krak Grenades are crafted with powerful concentrated explosives designed to punch holes in armoured targets such as vehicles or bunkers. While stronger than Frag Grenades, Krak detonations do not produce a blast effect and their more focused explosion makes them less practical as anti-personnel weapons.
    Cadian Imperial Guard Fatigues – Kasrkin generally wear the common battledress uniform or fatigues that are standard to their attached regiment beneath their Carapace Armour.
    Environmentally-sealed Storm Trooper Carapace Armour with Helmet – Carapace Armour is generally a sign of status and is mostly worn by Imperial officers, special forces and agents of the Inquisition. Made from moulded plates of armaplas, ceramite, or other strong, light but highly resistant materials, it can cover the entire body or just selected regions of the body depending on the desired level of protection. Kasrkin, for example, wear full-body suits of Carapace Armour, including a helmet, while most Imperial Guard soldiers are lucky to gain access to just a simple chestplate of Carapace Armour to wear over more comfortable mesh or flakweave suits. Some bodysuits have slots designed for simple carapace plates to be inserted in, so that the overall suits can be rapidly configured for as much or as little protection as desired. Damaged plates can in this way be more easily replaced without requiring the purchase of an entire new suit.
    Backpack Power Generator
    Rucksack
    Basic Toolkit
    Poor Weather Gear
    Mess Kit and Water Canteen
    2 Weeks’ Rations
    Blanket and Sleep Bag
    Rechargeable Lamp-Pack – Sturdy and reliable, glow-globes illuminate many an Imperial paveway and cathedral. Most portable ones are roughly the size of a clenched fist and can shine strong, yellowish light a dozen or so metres in width, lasting roughly five hours before their power pack needs recharging or replacing
    Grooming Kit
    Ident-Tags (“Dog Tags”)
    Micro-Bead – A micro-bead or comm-bead is a short-range radio wave communication device worn in the ear, good for communications out to about one kilometre (depending on weather conditions and the intervening terrain). Each fits discretely in the ear, with higher craftsmanship models nearly undetectable in casual inspection.
    Respirator – A simple breathing mask that covers the nose and mouth or entire face, these offer much better protection than filtration plugs and are used by Kasrkin in toxic environments or during attacks by chemical or even biological weapons.
    Imperial Infantryman’s Uplifting Primer – A standard-issue Imperial text that covers a vast variety of topics, this book is possessed by all members of the Imperial Guard as part of their standard-issue equipment. The Primer is a basic guide that details everything a Guardsman needs to know: principles and regulations of the Imperial Guard, issued arms, attire, apparatus, and equipment, basic battlefield policy and Imperial Guard organisation and structure, elementary battlefield medical instructions, and a detailed guide on the foes of the Imperium. No Guardsman should ever be found without possession of a copy of the Uplifting Primer, for the punishment is severe. The Primer is a basic guide to life in the Imperial Guard and the tactics employed by its regiments. Even elite Imperial troops like Kasrkin often times still rely on its advice.

    This is without taking into account the extra gear they can take

  45. Blossom January 20, 2015 at 9:16 pm -      #45

    Can Kasrkins use heavy bolters as special weapons, or is that my imagination?

  46. Blossom January 20, 2015 at 9:29 pm -      #46

    It is just my imagination.

    Also, “Kasrkin are also given minor biological modifications to allow them to move quickly despite their heavier gear.” (WH40k wiki)

  47. batman3.14 January 20, 2015 at 9:40 pm -      #47

    I personally think who wins is all about the skill level of the arc commander. Since there is no average arc commander, we have to look at the different circumstances.

    Fordo: obviously ARCS

    Neyo: would lean to the Kasrkin… He’s awesome but he is used to leading large amounts of troops

    So on… Basically, if its just a captain the clones should win but if its an awesome commander who leads large troop movements then the Kasrkin. Dream Squad:

    Fordo, Fives, Echo, Fordo’s men

  48. Blossom January 20, 2015 at 9:50 pm -      #48

    Do the weapons caches include fixed weapon emplacements, or just hand-held weapons?

    However much some people may hate the term “generic”, I think that’s what both sides are. No special named characters. Just a bunch of average, nameless ARCs versus a bunch of average, nameless Kasrkins.

  49. Syncourt January 21, 2015 at 1:21 am -      #49

    “Cherubael hadn’t moved. He was simply watching the murder around him. The las-shots sizzled off his skin, and he glanced down at the twist, as if his reverie had been broken.
    The daemonhost didn’t even move a hand, and finger. There was just a slight nod in the direction of the horned minder, and the miserable twist was somehow filleted where he stood, waves of force stripping off his flesh and popping out his skeleton, parts of it still articulated.
    I felt the warp churning around the dismal place as Cherubael went to work. Once he started, his fury was unstinting. Merdok’s war-rena fems disappeared in a sudden vortex and died, fused together. The mud beneath Vassik’s feet boiled, and she and her bodyguards sank, screaming and thrashing, into it…There was blood and filth in the air. A warp storm was crackling around us, so dense and dark we could barely see, barely stand against the churning force. But I could make out the glowing shape of Cherubael through it all.
    I drew my power sword and ran towards him…He floated around to face me, smiling down.
    ‘Put that way, Gregor. Don’t worry. I won’t kill you. Lyko has no power over me. I’ll deal with his complaints later, and-‘
    ‘Who does have power over you? who is your master? Tell me! You caused the atrocity on Thracian didn’t you! Why? On whose orders?’
    ‘Just go away Gregor. This is not your concern now. Go away.’
    I think he was honestly surprised when I hacked the power sword into his chest.
    I don’t really know if I had really imagined I could do him any harm.
    The blessed blade nearly disemboweled him before it exploded and hurled me backwards.
    He looked down in dismay at the wound across his torso. Warp energies, bright and toxic, were spilling out of it. In a second the wound closed as if it had never been.
    ‘You little fool’ said Cherubael.
    I found myself flying backwards through the air, blood in my mouth.
    The impact of landing shook my bones and smashed the breath out of me. My head swam. The deamonhost’s power had thrown me a good thirty meters across the site, into the underbrush.
    Furious psychic detonations went off all around. Screaming semi-sentient winds from the deepest warp snaked around the field, destroying the last of the twists and fleeing buyers
    …’I won’t forget what you did,’ said the daemonhost, looking back at me one last time. ‘You’ll have to make it up to me.’
    Then he was gone, and Esarhaddon was gone with him”
    Malleus – pgs. 366-367, and 373

    This is a ward-bound daemonhost – a daemonhost restricted from using most of his power. I highly doubt Grievious is worse than a daemonhost…unless he had a major power amp recently.

    Now, from everything I’ve seen, blasters deals about the same damage as a Lasgun. Powerful blasters (I.e. DC-15) were Lasguns on high-powered mode. I’ll be glad to concede if you have a quote that proves otherwise.

    While we’re talking about Lasguns, I’d like to bring up the Carapace Armour that Stormtroopers (and of course, Kasrkins) use. They are vastly superior to the standard Flak Jacket and have been shown to protect the wearer from typical Lasgun fire.

    “Despite their lack of augmentation, Magos Dahan had to admit the Cadian troopers were effective soldiers. Though the 71st Hellhounds had been aboard the Speranza less than six hours, they had already run through numerous training scenarios with aggression and competence that belied their months of transit to Joura from the punishing warzones of the Eastern Fringe. It was a fact of the Imperium’s vast scale that most Guard regiments suffered a substantial degradation in their combat effectiveness after long periods of transit in the holds of a Navy mass-conveyor. Soldiers and officers alike fell prey to a lassitude engendered by long periods of absence from the front line and the detrimental effects of prolonged immaterium travel. Not so with these Cadians. Three times the generator building had been captured, and with every assault the time between the opening shots being fired to the final room being cleared was getting shorter.”
    Priests of Mars – pg. 69

    This is a Magos of the Adeptus Mechanicus being impressed with the Cadians. The AdMech fiercely looks down on anyone who aren’t augmented. Cadians are no slouch. Kasrkins, even less so.

  50. Amored Dragon January 21, 2015 at 1:24 am -      #50

    “Like having to kill their best friend as part of their final training”

    I don’t think this is the standard for storm troopers. It might be for specific regiments but I don’t think its standard. And I highly doubt that Kasrkins would have this as a final test considering they come from Cadia, which values every body that can fight against Chaos.

    ” Storm Troopers are orphans picked up off the streets. In the Schola they learn other, non war related things also which means their training isn’t as effective”

    A:They may be orphans but they aren’t picked from the streets. They are usually sons of Imperial officials, such as planetary governors and high ranking members of the Imperial Guard or Navy.
    And B:”Years of punishing training have honed the minds, bodies, and skills of the Storm Troopers to the very peak of human perfection.”-Imperial Guard 5th edition codex.
    Thus you cannot say that their training isn’t as effective.

    “I think he means that because the Imperial Guard are mostly sent to defend imperial planets, where all buildings are built the same and look the same, they would have a harder time adapting to the environment as ARC troopers would, who often go into unfamiliar places.”

    First of all I highly doubt that they are only trained in a singular urban combat setting, that just isn’t reasonable. And secondly the guard don’t only defend, if you think so I would gladly point you in the direction of Lord Commander Solar Macharius and his crusade that brought close to a thousand worlds into Imperial hands. I don’t think that they conquered those planets by just being defensive. You also have to remember that these worlds all had different architecture and terrain than those already within the Imperium.

    “However, Hot Shots will have a problem killing as it takes a straight shot to the head or major organ to kill someone with a Lasgun and thanks to an ARC’s medical kit, they will be able to get back in the fight after being shot, which is a problem Storm Troopers have because their backpack is made up of the power battery for the Hellgun and dosent have medical supplies.”

    There are several points I want to make here. First, wounds caused by Lasguns aren’t the easiest to patch up. This is because the water in flesh is flash boiled by the heat of the round, essentially causing the flesh to explode where is was hit by the round. That doesn’t sound like the easiest wound to patch. I also have to point out that Hellguns don’t have to be connected to a backpack, they can take charge packs as well.

    “The barrel will eventually overheat after extended use, a problem that normal Lasguns don’t have.”

    That is why Hot Shot weapons all have reinforced barrels and thermal-cooling cells, as well as why all storm troopers are trained to look after their weapons, even being able to rebuild it from scratch if necessary.

  51. Blossom January 21, 2015 at 1:25 am -      #51

    Adeptus Mechanicus


    “Oh no, my backpack is too big, I can’t carry a medkit.”
    Said no kasrkin ever.

  52. Neon Lord January 21, 2015 at 3:52 am -      #52

    “Clone Armor was resilient enough to absorb a blaster bolt”

    There’s a lot of showings where it doesn’t in the Clone Wars series.

    “which has been shown to be stronger than a Lasgun, with only minimal injury”

    Proof required.

    “Actually, ARC Troopers were enhanced in the embryonic stage to be stronger than normal clones and more intelligent.”

    Source?

    “Clones are made and train their entire lives for war for 10 years.”

    Most Stormtroopers have been in training for 20+, let alone actual combat.

    “Storm Troopers are orphans picked up off the streets.”

    Nope, only orphans of nobles or high-ranking war officers get picked. Or particularly hardy orphans.

    “In the Schola they learn other, non war related things also which means their training isn’t as effective.”

    No logic exists in this statement.

    “Most of the article on Storm Trooper and Schola Progenium training focuses on the drill abbots, who don’t seem anymore harsh than a drill sergeant. And Clones fight each other aswell, not to the death but they still spar. Fighting to the death is silly and a waste of resources.”

    Having your entire personality erased, doing all practice combat with live-fire ammunition, getting punished with a warhammer, and getting chucked in the wild to survive all seem worse than what clones face. Direct disobedience means death by warhammer or similar, having your spine mounted in the main corridor. And manpower is a very cheap resource in the Imperium. Survival of the fittest is taken quite literally in Schola Progeniums.

    “I think he means that because the Imperial Guard are mostly sent to defend imperial planets, where all buildings are built the same and look the same”

    No they aren’t. There is standardised deployable fortifications which are sometimes used, but every planet varies widely from the next. The IG also do a lot of planetary assaults to take back planets because they got there late, or in crusades as mentioned above.

    “Hellguns won’t have a problem penetrating, but neither will the advanced Blasters that ARC Troopers carry have a problem with Carapace Armor either.”

    Still need proof of this. Unlike flak armour, carapace armour can tank lasgun shots.

    “However, Hot Shots will have a problem killing as it takes a straight shot to the head or major organ to kill someone with a Lasgun and thanks to an ARC’s medical kit”

    Losing a limb can be pretty serious you know.

    “which is a problem Storm Troopers have because their backpack is made up of the power battery for the Hellgun and dosent have medical supplies.”

    Except
    “Matyr’s Gift Field Service Medi-kit
    The Matyr’s gift medi-kit is a cut above anything issued to the Astra Militarum. Loaded with combat-stimms, auto-cauterising thermic gel and single use disposable bionics, this medi-kit is intended to ensure that wounded Scions get back into the fight with the minimum of fuss. Long term healing is of little interest to Tempestus Scions in the heat of battle – provided a wounded warrior can be patched and propped sufficiently to complete his duty, his eventual fate matters not. The Matyr’s Gift even features a belt of subcutaneous frag charges that can be used to booby-trap a terminally wounded Scion’s body – thus even in death, the Tempestus Scions strike back against the enemy that slew them.” – Militarum Tempestus Codex.

    “The barrel will eventually overheat after extended use, a problem that normal Lasguns don’t have.”

    Neither the Lucius or Ryza patten hot-shot lasguns, which is what Stormtroopers use, have this problem

    “We also see missile launchers making huge explosions in the Empire At War game, I chalk it up to game mechanics.”

    Empire at War doesn’t have that model of missile launcher. The main source for the Clone missile launcher is the old cartoon Clone Wars show and Star Wars Battlefront.

    “The DC-15A left .5 meter wide holes in ferroconcrete and the Westar M5 Blaster could penetrate the armor of Droid Assault Tanks and was considered as powerful as the DC-15A but easier to aim. In the Movies we see blasters create Fist-stomach sized holes in droids and walls.”

    The DC-15A is the standard Clone blaster. The claim was that ARC troopers use stronger blasters that normal. This does not prove that.

    “I don’t think this is the standard for storm troopers. It might be for specific regiments but I don’t think its standard. And I highly doubt that Kasrkins would have this as a final test considering they come from Cadia, which values every body that can fight against Chaos.”

    Actually, you are right. It’s for Commisars, not Stormtroopers. My bad.

    “I personally think who wins is all about the skill level of the arc commander. Since there is no average arc commander, we have to look at the different circumstances.”

    I’m pretty sure as it is a match of ARC troopers, there shouldn’t be an ARC Commander in the match. Unless he’s the equivalent of a squad leader rather than an actual captain, which I guess is then okay.

  53. GrandMaster January 21, 2015 at 7:34 pm -      #53

    “This is a ward-bound daemonhost – a daemonhost restricted from using most of his power. I highly doubt Grievious is worse than a daemonhost…unless he had a major power amp recently.”

    From the wiki article on Cherubael, it dosent say he was weakened, just bound to Eisenhorn’s service, though I haven’t read the book, it could be in there somewhere

    Also, in the Original Clone Wars Cartoons Jedi were capable of doing this:
    www.bing.com/videos/search?q=2002+clone+wars+cartoons+mace+windu+vs+droid+army&FORM=HDRSC3#ov_em
    And Grievous fought Aylaa Secura The Jedi Blademaster, Ki-Adi-Mundi, and Shaak Ti, who are all High Council Members along with 2 other apprentices.
    www.bing.com/videos/search?q=2002+clone+wars+cartoons+general+grievous&FORM=VIRE1#view=detail&mid=F873EBED0BCCAC066592F873EBED0BCCAC066592

    “Now, from everything I’ve seen, blasters deals about the same damage as a Lasgun. Powerful blasters (I.e. DC-15) were Lasguns on high-powered mode. I’ll be glad to concede if you have a quote that proves otherwise.”

    DC-15 isn’t an especially powerful blaster, it’s just military grade. The hotshot Lasgun equivalent for Blasters is The Disruptor. And of the Lasgun feats I have seen, I haven’t seen any that rival .5 meter holes in ferroconcrete or fist+ sized holes in Droids and Humans. Could you provide some Lasgun feats?

    “While we’re talking about Lasguns, I’d like to bring up the Carapace Armour that Stormtroopers (and of course, Kasrkins) use. They are vastly superior to the standard Flak Jacket and have been shown to protect the wearer from typical Lasgun fire.”

    I’m not seeing where it blocks Lasgun fire on either Lexicanum or 40k Wiki. Then again, I don’t own the IG codex so could someone with it provide a source for Carapace Armor blocking Lasguns? Also, Flak Armor only protects against shrapnel and ricochets, it’s defense against direct impact is almost negligible, so being a step up from Flak Armor isn’t much of an achievement.

    “This is a Magos of the Adeptus Mechanicus being impressed with the Cadians. The AdMech fiercely looks down on anyone who aren’t augmented. Cadians are no slouch. Kasrkins, even less so.”

    I’m not doubting the Cadian’s effectiveness, I’m just saying they aren’t the best regiment. They are the best of the well rounded regiments, but they aren’t as good at other Regiment’s specialties as those specialized regiments.

    “A:They may be orphans but they aren’t picked from the streets. They are usually sons of Imperial officials, such as planetary governors and high ranking members of the Imperial Guard or Navy.”

    “Nope, only orphans of nobles or high-ranking war officers get picked. Or particularly hardy orphans.”

    That’s probably a negative compared to being on the streets. If they live on the streets or in the lower levels of a hive city, then they probably already have been in fights before. (The poorer areas of a hive city are like modern day Somalia) If there the sons of planetary officials or Governors it means they’ve lived a pampered life and probably haven’t been into battle or fought anyone. Even if they have training, as some nobles do, it dosent match up to real fighting.

    “First of all I highly doubt that they are only trained in a singular urban combat setting, that just isn’t reasonable. And secondly the guard don’t only defend, if you think so I would gladly point you in the direction of Lord Commander Solar Macharius and his crusade that brought close to a thousand worlds into Imperial hands. I don’t think that they conquered those planets by just being defensive. You also have to remember that these worlds all had different architecture and terrain than those already within the Imperium.”

    Storm Troopers are trained for different environments, but Kasrkin are trained to fight on Cadia, a familiar environment and probably don’t see as much off world duty (if any at all) as other Storm Troopers do. Also, most of the worlds Macharius conquered were former Imperial Worlds captured by The Traitor Legions or Xenos in the 10,000 years after The Horus Heresy, while some planets may have been completely reshapen, most of them would likely still be somewhat similar to Imperial Worlds. And, every building/gun/vehicle/etc the Imperium has is made from an STC, meaning that every building built using a specific STC blueprint is almost exactly the same.

    “There are several points I want to make here. First, wounds caused by Lasguns aren’t the easiest to patch up. This is because the water in flesh is flash boiled by the heat of the round, essentially causing the flesh to explode where is was hit by the round. That doesn’t sound like the easiest wound to patch. I also have to point out that Hellguns don’t have to be connected to a backpack, they can take charge packs as well.”

    Wounds made by Lasguns cauterize the wound area, meaning that you won’t feel as much pain nor will you be at risk of bleeding out. ARC Troopers have a pack of Bacta Medication, so they could, if given enough time, get back into the fight.

    “That is why Hot Shot weapons all have reinforced barrels and thermal-cooling cells, as well as why all storm troopers are trained to look after their weapons, even being able to rebuild it from scratch if necessary.”

    warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Hotshot_Lasgun
    Lines 13-14 of the first paragraph describe how a Hot Shot Lasgun can melt after extensive use

    “There’s a lot of showings where it doesn’t in the Clone Wars series.”

    Notice how instead of having a hole in their bodies like most things do after being shot by a blaster they have scorch marks? That’s the plating and armor-mesh at work. A blaster can kill them, obviously, but having the armor grants a higher chance of survival and decreased damage

    “Proof required.”

    Their are instances in Clone Wars (the new ones) where a clone is shot but not killed.

    “Source?”

    starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Advanced_Recon_Commando

    “Most Stormtroopers have been in training for 20+, let alone actual combat.”

    Clones are Flash Trained and only train for war, instead of learning things like Imperial Theology or History. Combine that with 10 years of exclusively learning how to fight, it more than makes up for it. And could I see a source on 20 years of training? Most people aren’t taken into the Schola until they are almost teens.
    starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Flash_training

    “No logic exists in this statement.”

    People in the Schola Progenium learn Imperial Theology and History, (which is most likely censored). That isn’t going to help them in a battle, so for the purpose of war it is time wasted.

    “Having your entire personality erased, doing all practice combat with live-fire ammunition, getting punished with a warhammer, and getting chucked in the wild to survive all seem worse than what clones face. Direct disobedience means death by warhammer or similar, having your spine mounted in the main corridor. And manpower is a very cheap resource in the Imperium. Survival of the fittest is taken quite literally in Schola Progeniums.”

    Being broken to the point of personality rewriting isn’t the same as your entire personality being geared to fight as a result of spending your formative years only learning how to fight. Clones also practice with live fire drills And Discipline wasn’t required for training clones. They had all been raised to be utterly loyal. Similar to The Death Korps of Krieg, except without the Suicidal Impulse.

    “No they aren’t. There is standardised deployable fortifications which are sometimes used, but every planet varies widely from the next. The IG also do a lot of planetary assaults to take back planets because they got there late, or in crusades as mentioned above.”

    But they are fighting on Imperial Planets, which all use the same STCs to build stuff, it would be much different than being plopped into an environment they have never experienced before

    “Still need proof of this. Unlike flak armour, carapace armour can tank lasgun shots.”

    Do we ever see it tank Lasgun shots? It says it can take small arms shots, which generally means pistols and auto weapons, which are weaker than a Lasgun.

    “Neither the Lucius or Ryza patten hot-shot lasguns, which is what Stormtroopers use, have this problem”

    The Wiki article does not differentiate between patterns of Hot Shot Lasguns. Do you have a quote stating that Lucius and Ryza Patterns do not overheat?

    “The DC-15A is the standard Clone blaster. The claim was that ARC troopers use stronger blasters that normal. This does not prove that.”

    I said they use better Blasters, not stronger, my apologies, I see how that could have come off as Westars having stronger firepower. What I meant was that they are easier to aim and handle and have more ammunition that the DC-15A

    “-Militarum Tempestus Codex.”

    That’s for Storm Troopers, under the Wargear page on the 40k wiki it gives a list of Items and weapons a Kasrkin has, they do not have med kits listed in it. Most likely because they are fighting on Cadia, which means they will have a barracks to stay in.

  54. pimpmage January 21, 2015 at 7:52 pm -      #54

    “From the wiki article on Cherubael, it dosent say he was weakened, just bound to Eisenhorn’s service, though I haven’t read the book, it could be in there somewhere”

    That is that particular demon Prince’s current incarnation. He was not bound to eisenhorn’s service in that point in the story. Besides, bound daemonhosts are exponentially more powerful than you think. That particular demon broke it’s bindings that kept it weakened and docile after being told to go crazy, it destroyed a warlord titan in a single burst of power. Those things are not to be fucked with.

  55. Blossom January 21, 2015 at 8:20 pm -      #55

    This “lack of a medkit” thing for the Kasrkins is pissing me off. Of course they’d have some sort of medical equipment, if they’re not near a barracks or Imperial Stronghold.

    “People in the Schola Progenium learn Imperial Theology and History, (which is most likely censored). That isn’t going to help them in a battle, so for the purpose of war it is time wasted.”

    Kasrkins go through training for longer than Clone Troopers are alive. Even with the knowledge that is “wasted in war”, they’re still extremely well trained, and for a very long time.

  56. Blossom January 21, 2015 at 8:25 pm -      #56

    “ARC Troopers have a pack of Bacta Medication, so they could, if given enough time, get back into the fight.”

    “Oh, are you wounded, Mr. ARC Trooper? No worries, I’ll just call my men off until you are healed.”
    Also, getting a limb shot off certainly cannot be healed at any sort of speed, so unless it was a glancing shot that grazed your ribs, you aren’t getting up, much less getting back into the fight and healing.

  57. GrandMaster January 21, 2015 at 8:39 pm -      #57

    “This “lack of a medkit” thing for the Kasrkins is pissing me off. Of course they’d have some sort of medical equipment, if they’re not near a barracks or Imperial Stronghold.”

    If you can find a quote of them having a med kit, I’ll gladly concede the point, I was using the Barracks as an explaination for why they might not have Med kits.

    “Kasrkins go through training for longer than Clone Troopers are alive. Even with the knowledge that is “wasted in war”, they’re still extremely well trained, and for a very long time.”

    Can you give a quote on the amount of time Kasrkin train? And, Clone Troopers are flash trained aswell, meaning they are going through more training per day than a Kasrkin is.

    ““Oh, are you wounded, Mr. ARC Trooper? No worries, I’ll just call my men off until you are healed.”
    Also, getting a limb shot off certainly cannot be healed at any sort of speed, so unless it was a glancing shot that grazed your ribs, you aren’t getting up, much less getting back into the fight and healing.”

    If your in a firefight, confirming kills might not be an option. and normal soldiers have fought on even when literally bleeding out. and Bacta can work wonders even in a short amount of time.

  58. pimpmage January 21, 2015 at 8:48 pm -      #58

    “If you can find a quote of them having a med kit, I’ll gladly concede the point, I was using the Barracks as an explaination for why they might not have Med kits.”

    I have no clue why you guys are even discussing this when there are supply drops all over the combat area.

    “Can you give a quote on the amount of time Kasrkin train? And, Clone Troopers are flash trained aswell, meaning they are going through more training per day than a Kasrkin is.”

    Standard humans can be biologically de aged with 40k science. If a storm trooper is actually able to survive long enough, they can be enhanced to live up to or surpass 200 years old. Keep in mind, they can keep your body in it’s prime well into 200 years of age, then the enhancements stop working and you die. Ciaphas Cain is a great example of this, living to be possibly 200-250 years old and having book after book following him along those 250 or so years.

  59. Blossom January 21, 2015 at 8:55 pm -      #59

    warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Imperial_Guard_Wargear

    “The following equipment is issued to all Imperial Guardsmen upon recruitment.
    Combat Knife or Bayonet: (not needed)
    Guard-Issue Medical Supplies: All guardsmen are issued with very basic medical supplies, including bandages, swabs and basic med-kits containing oils and salves. The Medical Supplies are used to heal small wounds obtained from shrapnel, dangerous terrain features and bruises sustained during hectic battlefield manouveres.”
    (And there’s a bunch more stuff that isn’t relevent, like the Imperial Infantryman’s uplifting primer)

  60. GrandMaster January 21, 2015 at 9:02 pm -      #60

    “Standard humans can be biologically de aged with 40k science. If a storm trooper is actually able to survive long enough, they can be enhanced to live up to or surpass 200 years old. Keep in mind, they can keep your body in it’s prime well into 200 years of age, then the enhancements stop working and you die. Ciaphas Cain is a great example of this, living to be possibly 200-250 years old and having book after book following him along those 250 or so years.”

    Generally your average soldiers won’t have rejuvent treatment. Only very rich/important people like Inquisitors and Nobles can afford Rejuvent Surgery.

    ““The following equipment is issued to all Imperial Guardsmen upon recruitment.
    Combat Knife or Bayonet: (not needed)
    Guard-Issue Medical Supplies: All guardsmen are issued with very basic medical supplies, including bandages, swabs and basic med-kits containing oils and salves. The Medical Supplies are used to heal small wounds obtained from shrapnel, dangerous terrain features and bruises sustained during hectic battlefield manouveres.””

    I see. But that level of medical supplies can only heal small shrapnel wounds and bruises from moving around the battlefield, something that Clone Troopers won’t have to deal with due to their full body armor that’s resistant to almost all Physical impacts short of high caliber impacts. Yes, Clone Armor is bullet proof. Really it just goes to show how terrible Flak Armor is. It isn’t going to help against a blaster shot.

  61. Blossom January 21, 2015 at 9:15 pm -      #61

    “Really it just goes to show how terrible Flak Armor is. It isn’t going to help against a blaster shot.”

    It’s funny, because they’re not using flak armor…

    Throughout the Clone Wars TV show, time and time again is it shown that Clone Trooper armor does absolutely nothing to protect you against direct hits.

  62. pimpmage January 21, 2015 at 9:25 pm -      #62

    “Generally your average soldiers won’t have rejuvent treatment. Only very rich/important people like Inquisitors and Nobles can afford Rejuvent Surgery.”

    Actually no. The imperial war machine doles out treatments to anyone showing potential. An example would be Ciaphas Cain. He was an average commissar that got extremely lucky hundreds of times throughout his life. He became a hero, and that alone got him these treatments within the first 30 or so years of his life. So that would have been like a decade or so after he graduated Schola. These treatments are handed out to nearly every competent officer. I seriously don’t see why they wouldn’t extend the age of the most able human shock troops in recent history.

  63. GrandMaster January 21, 2015 at 9:32 pm -      #63

    “Throughout the Clone Wars TV show, time and time again is it shown that Clone Trooper armor does absolutely nothing to protect you against direct hits.”

    do I need to post videos of them surviving a Blaster?

    “Actually no. The imperial war machine doles out treatments to anyone showing potential. An example would be Ciaphas Cain. He was an average commissar that got extremely lucky hundreds of times throughout his life. He became a hero, and that alone got him these treatments within the first 30 or so years of his life. So that would have been like a decade or so after he graduated Schola. These treatments are handed out to nearly every competent officer. I seriously don’t see why they wouldn’t extend the age of the most able human shock troops in recent history.”

    Ciaphas Cain was also a commanding officer and considered a hero. He had the influence to get that treatment, but a Kasrkin would not have that level of influence. Even most Astropaths don’t have the power to get Rejuvent Treatments, and they are much more important than a single Kasrkin.

  64. Neon Lord January 21, 2015 at 9:36 pm -      #64

    “From the wiki article on Cherubael, it dosent say he was weakened, just bound to Eisenhorn’s service, though I haven’t read the book, it could be in there somewhere”

    A daemonhost, by its very nature, is weakened because it is bound. No one is going to let a Daemon romp around at full power.

    “And of the Lasgun feats I have seen, I haven’t seen any that rival .5 meter holes in ferroconcrete or fist+ sized holes in Droids and Humans. Could you provide some Lasgun feats?”

    “Savage maws loomed in his vision, impossible to miss. He slammed his blade into an eye, dodged a crude weapon, stuck his gun into the belly of another greenskin, pulled the trigger, watched its innards empty out, glimmering in the red laser fire and splattering onto the Ork behind. Krassus ducked the swipe of a blade, saw a gun being raised, brought up his own weapon – and as the muzzle flared, the Ork’s arm was severed, sending the bucking gun clattering into its own kind, slugs shattering xenos brains.” – Militarum Tempestus.

    Neat holes with perfect cauterisation would not cause innards to go flying everywhere. A shot also manages to take off an Ork arm with ease.

    I would also like to see where you got fist-sized holes in humans for blasters from too, since there are a lot of scenes in the Clone Wars series where blaster bolts leave blaster-bolt-sized holes, not fist-sized.

    “That’s probably a negative compared to being on the streets. If they live on the streets or in the lower levels of a hive city, then they probably already have been in fights before. (The poorer areas of a hive city are like modern day Somalia) If there the sons of planetary officials or Governors it means they’ve lived a pampered life and probably haven’t been into battle or fought anyone. Even if they have training, as some nobles do, it dosent match up to real fighting.”

    And thats why the weaklings get weeded out and killed off in training.

    “Storm Troopers are trained for different environments, but Kasrkin are trained to fight on Cadia, a familiar environment and probably don’t see as much off world duty (if any at all) as other Storm Troopers do.”

    If you can provide a single source that says that, then you might have an argument.

    “Lines 13-14 of the first paragraph describe how a Hot Shot Lasgun can melt after extensive use”

    I’ve checked both of the sources listed and neither say anything about overheating. Instead, the Guard codex mentions thermal cooling cells. You are going to need a better source.

    “Their are instances in Clone Wars (the new ones) where a clone is shot but not killed.”

    So you are now saying blasters are weaker than you claimed?

    ““Source?””

    The wiki doesn’t mention anything you claimed.

    “Clones are Flash Trained and only train for war, instead of learning things like Imperial Theology or History. Combine that with 10 years of exclusively learning how to fight, it more than makes up for it. And could I see a source on 20 years of training? Most people aren’t taken into the Schola until they are almost teens.”

    Most Stormtroopers look like they are in the 20s-40s. Training probably lasts 10+ years, then actual combat experience after. So 20 may have been an overstatement on my part.

    “People in the Schola Progenium learn Imperial Theology and History, (which is most likely censored). That isn’t going to help them in a battle, so for the purpose of war it is time wasted.”

    It doesn’t take a long time to learn that stuff, and most of it consists of reciting them hundreds of times whilst scaling walls and doing physical exercises at the same time.

    “But they are fighting on Imperial Planets, which all use the same STCs to build stuff, it would be much different than being plopped into an environment they have never experienced before”

    Find me a source where it says there are housing STCs. Because I can provide a ton of planets that Guard have fought on which are nothing alike.

    “That’s for Storm Troopers, under the Wargear page on the 40k wiki it gives a list of Items and weapons a Kasrkin has, they do not have med kits listed in it. Most likely because they are fighting on Cadia, which means they will have a barracks to stay in.”

    Kasrkin ARE Storm troopers. Med-kits are most likely only 1-3 per squad, so it isn’t listed as standard equipment for every soldier. Militarum Tempestus is also quite a new source.

  65. Neon Lord January 21, 2015 at 9:43 pm -      #65

    Another point I forgot. Stormtroopers are definitely better in close combat than any clone. If they get stuck in, the clones are screwed.

  66. Syncourt January 21, 2015 at 9:58 pm -      #66

    You know what I find amusing? That it’s been primarily 40k proof shown to back up their claims. The wiki is all fine and dandy to get acquainted, but actual feats go much further.

    Bound daemonhosts are not to be trifled with. But they ARE kept constantly at minimal strength for fear of escaping.
    The video showing Grievious fighting the other Jedis wasn’t nearly as impressive as a bound daemonhost.

    “Most soldiers of the Imperial Guard are protected from harm by body armour known as flak armour (or flak vests), a composite material that becomes rigid when a pressure or energy threshold is reached – such as the impact of a bullet, laser pulse or close combat weapon. Against most forms of weapon, the flak vest will be sufficient protection, though against heavy weapons or large-creatures it is unlikely to have enough strength to prevent injury.
    There are a great many variants of armour throughout the Imperium, with locally available materials, tradition, and culture helping to shape the look and functionality of body armour.”
    Imperial Munitorum Manual, pg. 57

    Flak Armour protects from more than just “shrapnel and richochets”.

    “To complement their superior training, Storm Troopers are better armed and armoured than regular Guardsmen. Protected by rigid arma-plas and reinforced ceramite plates, Storm Troopers can wade through a torrent of small-arms fire that would kill a normal Guardsmen outright.”
    Codex, 5th Ed. pg. 46

    “The firing continued, with las-bolts and bullets chewing up the masonry around us, and I felt a sudden blow against my chest. I glanced down: a las-bolt had impacted against the borrowed armour beneath my greatcoat, and I blessed the foresight that had impelled me to requisition it.”
    For The Emperor, pg. 225

    Carapace Armour protecting against las-bolts.

    I believe the burden of proof lies on you.

  67. Friendlysociopath January 21, 2015 at 10:12 pm -      #67

    Drat and curses, it looks like the 40K people actually knew what they were talking about- who knew?

  68. pimpmage January 21, 2015 at 10:13 pm -      #68

    “Neat holes with perfect cauterisation would not cause innards to go flying everywhere. A shot also manages to take off an Ork arm with ease.”

    Keep in mind, an ork arm is easily the size of an average human torso.
    www.thelynennor.de/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Warhammer-40K-Orks-2.jpg

  69. pimpmage January 21, 2015 at 10:19 pm -      #69

    “Drat and curses, it looks like the 40K people actually knew what they were talking about- who knew?”

    Its almost as if we have huge book collections filled with feats to pull from…

  70. Blossom January 21, 2015 at 10:59 pm -      #70

    “Drat and curses, it looks like the 40K people actually knew what they were talking about- who knew?”

    Looks like we got them fooled, hehe.

  71. mack006 January 22, 2015 at 1:39 am -      #71

    “If you can find a quote of them having a med kit, I’ll gladly concede the point, I was using the Barracks as an explaination for why they might not have Med kits.”

    Dafaq? This like saying, ‘Oh the male Karskins don’t have a dick unless you have a quote specifically stating they have a dick’

    This is like a lack of common sense, unimportant and just plain retarded.

    What quote do you want next? Whether or not they carry ammo for their guns?

  72. Blossom January 22, 2015 at 2:08 am -      #72

    @mack006
    I don’t think that there is a quote stating that male Kasrkins have a dick, so we can’t know for sure.

    That, by the way, was a joke.

  73. Total_Overkill January 22, 2015 at 4:11 am -      #73

    GrandMaster- “Generally your average soldiers won’t have rejuvent treatment. Only very rich/important people like Inquisitors and Nobles can afford Rejuvent Surgery.”

    … the ENTIRE Adeptus Sororitas get the treatments ^_^ its not as expensive or uncommon as some are led to believe. (it does vary, world to world, technology level to technology level, naturally)

  74. mack006 January 22, 2015 at 7:56 am -      #74

    @Blossom
    Oh really? For a split second I actually believed in you. I thought that they would need to cut off their dicks as part of their training. A test of bravery perhaps?

  75. Cassie Hack January 22, 2015 at 1:28 pm -      #75

    They have to do the trust test from Old School.

  76. Amored Dragon January 22, 2015 at 7:03 pm -      #76

    ” I haven’t seen any that rival .5 meter holes in ferroconcrete or fist+ sized holes in Droids and Humans.”

    Please post a picture or quote some text that gives evidence of this.

    “That’s probably a negative compared to being on the streets. If they live on the streets or in the lower levels of a hive city, then they probably already have been in fights before. (The poorer areas of a hive city are like modern day Somalia) If there the sons of planetary officials or Governors it means they’ve lived a pampered life and probably haven’t been into battle or fought anyone. Even if they have training, as some nobles do, it dosent match up to real fighting.”

    Orphans of ranking members of the Guard can have tutors while their parent is still alive and did you not read my quote about how their trained to the very peak of human perfection? I will gladly restate it if you want me to. I also have to know why we are even arguing about this? Does it really matter where the orphans come from? If they haven’t fought yet that’s what the training is for. That is like saying your clones didn’t have any fighting experience before their training so they can’t fight as well as if they did. Your argument is flawed.

    “Storm Troopers are trained for different environments, but Kasrkin are trained to fight on Cadia, a familiar environment and probably don’t see as much off world duty (if any at all) as other Storm Troopers do. Also, most of the worlds Macharius conquered were former Imperial Worlds captured by The Traitor Legions or Xenos in the 10,000 years after The Horus Heresy, while some planets may have been completely reshapen, most of them would likely still be somewhat similar to Imperial Worlds. And, every building/gun/vehicle/etc the Imperium has is made from an STC, meaning that every building built using a specific STC blueprint is almost exactly the same.”

    Where in the world did you get the idea that Cadians and by extension Kasrkin only ever fight on their own world?
    “Because of the sheer quantity of Cadian regiments produced, thousands of them are sent to warzones across the galaxy at any one time, with generals overseeing warzones across the Segmentum constantly requesting additional forces from the reserve, to fight alongside those mustered locally.”-Warhammer 40k wiki

    I also have to point out that even if every single building in the galaxy spanning Imperium was made using a STC blueprint (which I don’t believe) that doesn’t make urban training any less effective.
    “Oh no! This building is slightly different in design than what I’ve seen before! I’m going to forget all my training and not know that a wall is a good place to hide behind or that you can shoot out a window!”-What no one ever has said before.
    Urban training is still urban training, the tactics people use don’t change because of a difference in design.

    “Lines 13-14 of the first paragraph describe how a Hot Shot Lasgun can melt after extensive use”

    Did you put the wrong link because it doesn’t say what you said it said? And even if your right the keyword is ‘extensive’, I don’t think that two ten man squads in a city are going to be firing that often.

    “Notice how instead of having a hole in their bodies like most things do after being shot by a blaster they have scorch marks?”

    No I didn’t notice that blasters leave holes at all. When I’ve watch Star Wars I see smoke from shots going wide, but no holes.

    “Their are instances in Clone Wars (the new ones) where a clone is shot but not killed.”

    Please give a link to a video of this.

    Sorry for not commenting more often, it is finals week at my school.

  77. Alpha or Omega January 22, 2015 at 7:43 pm -      #77

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6qwQslIufE#t=230
    I remember in The Clone Wars season 6 that blasters left holes, but the Clone Trooper didn’t survive.

  78. Alpha or Omega January 22, 2015 at 7:48 pm -      #78

    I recall somebody surviving blasters, maybe Clones.
    But, I’m pretty sure surviving a blaster shot depends more on resilience than armor.
    I’m not sure if it was on the main body than limbs either.

  79. Alpha or Omega January 22, 2015 at 8:10 pm -      #79

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLF5qhzHVxU#t=25
    Here, Heavy was shot 3 times. He was dying but could still move.
    Waxer and Fives died, but lived long enough to say some things.

  80. Alpha or Omega January 22, 2015 at 8:27 pm -      #80

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=aaGXXVtaqr8#t=64
    Here, Commander Thorn takes a shot to his ribs and keeps fighting, and then takes 3 shots to the chest and one head shot.
    This guy was a Clone Commander. Maybe he had better armor.
    /
    www.youtube.com/watch?v=79V9r3PCgAU
    Clone Captain Keeli takes a grenade blast.
    Took a hit to the shoulder and chest then died.
    /
    Kasrkin still wins though.

  81. pimpmage January 22, 2015 at 8:30 pm -      #81

    “Here, Heavy was shot 3 times. He was dying but could still move.”

    He got shot in the leg and got up to keep walking rofl! What kinda stupid shit is that right? He also got shot like three times in the back and still got back up to keep walking. That guy was wearing freaking civilian clothing. The fuck? How the fuck is that supposed to compare to getting exploded by a las rifle? Let alone a hellgun that can pierce SM armor.

  82. Alpha or Omega January 22, 2015 at 8:43 pm -      #82

    @Pimpmage
    I was just posting for Clones surviving blasters.
    The superiority of the Kasrkin’s weaponry against the blasters is kinda far.
    I don’t recall blasters making holes in humans or anything humanoid in canon sources. So, I don’t see it competing with 40k weaponry anytime soon.

  83. pimpmage January 22, 2015 at 8:44 pm -      #83

    “That felt like an insult. I actually like Heavy. :/”

    I have never watched that show, I see he is the crippled helpful sort so he should make you think that. But he was shot several times to very little effect. Thats really silly.

  84. Alpha or Omega January 22, 2015 at 8:59 pm -      #84

    “I have never watched that show, I see he is the crippled helpful sort so he should make you think that. But he was shot several times to very little effect. Thats really silly.”
    /
    I blame writers for not knowing what soldiers should do.
    The episodes focused on Clone Troopers feature character that we don’t usually see in movies, so that’s why I like the Clone Troopers.

  85. Alpha or Omega January 22, 2015 at 9:23 pm -      #85

    By character, I mean character traits.
    /
    Anyway, Kasrkin wins this with las-guns, better CQC, and carapace armor?

  86. Blossom January 22, 2015 at 9:30 pm -      #86

    “Anyway, Kasrkin wins this with las-guns, better CQC, and carapace armor?”

    Don’t forget the plasma and melta-guns

  87. Syncourt January 25, 2015 at 3:29 pm -      #87

    So, the Star Wars side has given up after asking for proofs eh.

    “‘Kill them,’ he ordered.
    The Sacristans raised hands in supplication, but twin las-bolts cored their skulls before they could speak. Their headless bodies slumped onto the stone-flagged floor next to Cebella.”
    Vengeful Spirit, pg. 222.

    “‘Good.’ She aimed the lasgun and took the prone man’s head off with one shot. You’ll be next unless you do exactly, precisely what I tell you. Understand?’”
    Faith and Fire, pg. 110.

    “The older man sidestepped, so as not to risk hitting the girl. Then he blew the second chanter’s head into steam.”
    Hammer and Bolter (#13), pg.141.

    The above quotes show lasguns easily operate in the double digit megajoule range in order to inflict that amount of damage. And Kasrkins use hellguns.

  88. pimpmage January 25, 2015 at 4:36 pm -      #88

    I always thought star wars blasters were better than lasguns. Did they always have weak showings or is it because the new change in canon?

  89. Jake_Uzumaki January 25, 2015 at 4:44 pm -      #89

    some examples of Blasters firepower

  90. pimpmage January 26, 2015 at 10:21 am -      #90

    How many of those examples are old canon? Also, those videos of blasters hitting rocks look like plot top me, no other standard showing in the cartoons vaporized entire humans. Heck, someone already posted a video of some old unarmored guy getting shot like three times in the spine and once in the leg and he got back up and kept shuffling away.

  91. Siggymansz January 30, 2015 at 3:52 pm -      #91

    Kasrkin do not have hard armour covering 100% of their bodies, their legs are covered by uniform/fatigues.

    If the ARCs can;
    A. Ambush the Kasrkin from afar or
    B. Get to their Cache and get their heavy weaponry or
    C. Both

    They can pull of a win…

    Unfortunately for them Kasrkin have more options to straight up murderhobo the ARC troopers :(

    (My instincts say WH40K, but myHeart says SW)

  92. Neon Lord February 2, 2015 at 7:13 pm -      #92

    “Kasrkin do not have hard armour covering 100% of their bodies, their legs are covered by uniform/fatigues.”

    True, but the loss in protection is made up for greater ease of movement and stealth.

    “A. Ambush the Kasrkin from afar”

    Depends on luck. And if they fail to do anything significant in the first strike, then they are just going to get shot right back with better weaponry.

    “B. Get to their Cache and get their heavy weaponry”

    Kasrkin heavy weaponry is better. A Hot-shot volley gun is equal to, if not better, than the gatling blaster. A grenade launcher is far better and more versatile against infantry than an AT missile launcher. Plasma guns, meltaguns, and flamers are also all available.

  93. pimpmage February 2, 2015 at 9:23 pm -      #93

    “and stealth.”

    Arc troopers don’t seem to even make use of any camo whatsoever. They only use white armor.

    ““B. Get to their Cache and get their heavy weaponry”

    How is that fair to allow SW to know the locations of all kasrkin supply drops? Also, why would Arc troopers prefer 40k weaponry over their own? How do they even know 40k stuff is better, let alone know how to operate that equipment?

  94. Neon Lord February 2, 2015 at 9:40 pm -      #94

    “How is that fair to allow SW to know the locations of all kasrkin supply drops? Also, why would Arc troopers prefer 40k weaponry over their own? How do they even know 40k stuff is better, let alone know how to operate that equipment?”

    He’s talking about SW heavy weapons. See post #4.

  95. pimpmage February 2, 2015 at 9:49 pm -      #95

    Stupid english language, he could have either meant their as in the kasrkins’s or their as in their own cache.

  96. Warlock Lowk February 3, 2015 at 10:27 pm -      #96

    “How many of those examples are old canon?”

    Clone wars is still canon and everything else was from the movies.

  97. Ordo11 February 23, 2015 at 8:34 pm -      #97

    see this is when I wish we had eu to clear up this fight because eu = arc win but otherwise! we don’t even entirely know gun strength vs setup.

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