Rand Al’Thor Vs Jaller

Rand Al'Thor Vs Jaller

Suggested by Nsl98

Here we have an interesting match between Rand al’Thor (Wheel of Time) facing off against Jaller of the Bionicle franchise.

They fight in Stonehenge.

Who would win?

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100 Comments on "Rand Al’Thor Vs Jaller"

  1. Neon Lord January 16, 2015 at 6:31 am -      #1

    BIONICLE!!!!!!! :DDD

    But which incarnation though? Toa Inikia, Mahri, or post-Makuta takeover?

  2. nsl98 January 16, 2015 at 6:31 am -      #2

    Thanks admin!

    ———

    Lightspeed reactions or naw?

    www.brickshelf.com/cgi-bin/gallery.cgi?i=3520593

    @Neon

    Mahri is current as of Makuta’s death on Bara Magna. Its being rebooted though.

  3. Neon Lord January 16, 2015 at 7:03 am -      #3

    “Mahri is current as of Makuta’s death on Bara Magna. Its being rebooted though.”

    I do believe that in the Mahri arc the Toa Mahri couldn’t breathe air. So there is that minor problem with that particular part of the timeline.

  4. nsl98 January 16, 2015 at 7:10 am -      #4

    @Neon

    There amphibious now though. It got changed in one of the short stories Farshtey made.

  5. Neon Lord January 16, 2015 at 7:24 am -      #5

    “@Neon
    There amphibious now though. It got changed in one of the short stories Farshtey made.”

    During the period of time they were around Mahri Nui (which is particular bit I am talking about), they were solely water-breaters. They got turned amphibious when they were teleported by the Mask of Life back to Metru Nui, although their forms are the same which is the point I think you are trying to get across.

    So far the reboot seems pretty good. The addition of all the negative comedy traits to the Toa is the only downside so far.

    Wait, is his Cordak Blaster still mounted on his crab?

  6. Shgon Dunstan January 16, 2015 at 7:58 am -      #6

    …OP needs to clear up whether we’re talking God Rand or not, and if not, whether he gets a sa’angreal.

    Past that…What can this Jaller do?

    And by “do” I mean “to stop Rand from being able to just wrap him up in flows of Air, and call it a day”?

    @nsl98
    “Lightspeed reactions or naw?”

    I can’t really tell from just the picture, and don’t know the setting enough to say one way or the other.

  7. Shgon Dunstan January 16, 2015 at 8:11 am -      #7

    bionicle.wikia.com/wiki/Jaller

    …Ether someone up and deleted a few paragraphs worth from “abilities”, or… This match pretty much just comes down to how fast he is.

    …Great, just what Rand needed, another one of those threads. -_-

  8. Soulerous January 16, 2015 at 8:51 am -      #8

    Lightspeed reactions or naw?
    -That scan does not show luminal reactions. It may show the toa ducking as/after the light attack misses them, or it may imply they dodged an attack that did not travel at luminal speeds (it’s not normal light, putting its speed in question), but either way it does not support a feat of lightspeed reactions.
    ~
    I hate to say it, but I think this a stomp.

  9. nsl98 January 16, 2015 at 9:08 am -      #9

    (it’s not normal light, putting its speed in question)

    ——-

    Why wouldn’t it be classified as normal light?

    ——

    Jaller knows his powers limits:

    “The Toa of Fire opened his eyes abruptly. He saw crystal towers, Ko-Matoran, the familiar sight of the Colliseum- he was back in Metru Nui!

  10. nsl98 January 16, 2015 at 9:19 am -      #10

    What? It didn’t post….

    Here’s the rest of the quote then:

    “….. with supreme effort of will, he forced down his nova power before it could devastate his home.”

    ——-

    Size of his home:

    de.bionicle.wikia.com/wiki/Metru_Nui

  11. Soulerous January 16, 2015 at 9:39 am -      #11

    Why wouldn’t it be classified as normal light?
    -Well, the beam has strands “fraying” from it that appear to be moving differently from normal light. But no, that doesn’t necessarily mean it isn’t being driven by normal physics and only guided by supernatural power, so it could very well be normal (albeit lethal) light. I was wrong.
    ~
    It still isn’t a lightspeed reaction feat for the first reason I said.

  12. nsl98 January 16, 2015 at 9:44 am -      #12

    The Toa were just standing around, and then Umbra, the light guy, appeared. They were standing in a normal, standing position. Umbra charges towards them in his light form, and the next panel shows Jaller diving out of the way.

  13. Shgon Dunstan January 16, 2015 at 10:06 am -      #13

    “Size of his home:”

    “Devastate” isn’t quite the same thing as “annihilate”, and…

    …No really, which Rand?

    To paraphrase Kreia “I once held a nigh-omnipotent being by the throat, as I now hold you by the throat”. :lol:

  14. Shgon Dunstan January 16, 2015 at 10:29 am -      #14

    @Soulerous
    “I hate to say it, but I think this a stomp.”

    Myself, I’m just waiting for a more definitive speed feat, as is…

    Only really know Bionicle setting from the movies, but unless everything in them was in slow-motion… Rand doesn’t even need lightning speed reactions to stomp here. Jaller has about as much chance against him as does just some random guy with a sword. -_-

  15. Soulerous January 16, 2015 at 11:39 am -      #15

    Rand doesn’t even need lightning speed reactions to stomp here. Jaller has about as much chance against him as does just some random guy with a sword.
    -Exactly. I’m mostly knowledgeable on the older Bionicle stuff, but reaction feats have always been pretty hard to come by. Generally speaking.

  16. nsl98 January 16, 2015 at 11:43 am -      #16

    Non God Rand

    ——-

    What about his nova blast?

    And sorry dudes, this whole fight practically hinged on what I thought was a light speed reaction feat and nova blasts.

  17. Shgon Dunstan January 16, 2015 at 12:27 pm -      #17

    @ns189

    The “by the throat” thing wasn’t talking about God-Rand.

    “God-Rand” is Rand from the very end of the books, where he completely changed power sets… Amongst other things… Being that we’re talking like the last page, he doesn’t have a ton of feats… As in “he lit a pipe with his mind, roll credits”.

    What I was talking about he did with one of his sa’angreals right before what lead to the change.

    … Anyway, it doesn’t seem to matter to much for this fight, pretty much any version of him able to channel stomps about the same.

  18. erickyboo January 16, 2015 at 12:27 pm -      #18

    Noooooo. Jaller! Don’t lose! Use nova blast!
    biosector01.com/wiki/index.php/Jaller

  19. nsl98 January 16, 2015 at 12:55 pm -      #19

    @erickyboo

    The nova blast could work, but Jaller doesn’t have the speed to use it apparently.

  20. Soulerous January 16, 2015 at 1:18 pm -      #20

    And sorry dudes, this whole fight practically hinged on what I thought was a light speed reaction feat and nova blasts.
    -Don’t worry, most of us have done it at some point

  21. nsl98 January 16, 2015 at 2:55 pm -      #21

    Where the crap did the other match go?

  22. Aelfinn January 16, 2015 at 3:51 pm -      #22

    What are you talking about, Soulerous? I’ve never made a bad match! As if I would actually suggest Vin vs. Magneto? Ha!
    =
    “The nova blast could work, but Jaller doesn’t have the speed to use it apparently.”

    The wiki told me it was dangerous, but does it have a long charge-up time? Rand is really fast, and he has many options to quickly kill someone. He also should have ways to protect himself.
    =
    “Where the crap did the other match go?”

    Using my demi-Mod powers, I have detected that the other match is the first of a new batch of matches authored by not the Admin, but by Facts. I assume Friendlysociopath made a mistake, and may have accidentally hit “post”.

  23. Friendlysociopath January 16, 2015 at 3:57 pm -      #23

    Where the crap did the other match go?

    As Aelfinn said, chronic case of wrong button.

  24. Centurion-A001 January 16, 2015 at 4:06 pm -      #24

    According to a very intelligent ptaine and a fairly peeved Aelfinn, Rand has single-digit millisecond reaction times due to his ability to block lightning. (see Rand al’Thor vs Hazama for more).

    He can also create a shield around himself that will block anything short of balefire, so i’m gonna need some info on that.

    Balefire burns people and objects out of time and space. Only Cuendillar, a magically invincible material, and more balefire can stop it.

    Quotes
    .
    The Fires of Heaven pg 915
    “Lightning stabbed from the cloudless sky.
    Rand wove Fire and Air to meet Fire and Air, a slow-spreading shield racing lightnings’ fall. Too slow. One bolt struck the shield directly above his head, shattering in a blinding glare, but others grounded themselves, and his hair lifted as the air itself seemed to hammer him down.”
    .
    The shield. The Path of Daggers pg 647
    “The only warning he had was the sudden snarl that contorted Dashiva’s face. Dashiva channeled, and with no time to think, Rand wove-as so often, he did not know what; something dredged from Lews Therin’s memories…Air and Fire and Earth wove around himself just so. The fire that leaped from Dashiva erupted, shattering marble, flinging Rand back down the hallway, bounding and rolling in his cocoon.
    That barrier would keep out anything short of balefire.”
    .
    If anyone wants quotes, I can help.

  25. Aelfinn January 16, 2015 at 5:02 pm -      #25

    “i’m gonna need some info on that.”

    There’s a quote from Robert Jordan that says weaves aren’t affected by outside forces, so that could play a role with the its ability to block everything. Furthermore, it also prevents the One Power from going through it. Rand’s also seen mountains destroyed and held half the power to melt the Earth, so that’s likely the upper-limit for any arguable amount of durability. I have a feeling you knew that, though.
    =
    I have to ask, though…who are you, Centurion-A001? I don’t…think I’ve seen you before, but if you were keeping up with Rand vs. Hazama and following the walls of text, you’ve likely been here a while. You also have quotes readily available. WoT fan, or just dedicated BankGambling lurker?

    Lol, I make one compromise, and my opponent gets labeled “very intelligent” while I stay “peeved”.

  26. Centurion-A001 January 16, 2015 at 5:15 pm -      #26

    @Aelfinn I am some of both, among other things. I have read the Wheel of Time through and through several times and own the books, and I’ve been following BankGambling for several years. I just don’t say much because I am a poor debater over the internet. I’m not a master typer. I debate far better in person.
    .
    Plus, when i said that about ptaine, I was paraphrasing you. You said you got sick of having it out with a guy like him. I know for a fact that you are also very intelligent, and did not mean to imply otherwise.
    .
    P.S. you friends with somebody named Eelfinn?

  27. Aelfinn January 16, 2015 at 5:37 pm -      #27

    “Plus, when i said that about ptaine, I was paraphrasing you. You said you got sick of having it out with a guy like him. I know for a fact that you are also very intelligent, and did not mean to imply otherwise.”

    Hahaha I was just being salty. Don’t worry, I wasn’t actually concerned.
    =
    “I just don’t say much because I am a poor debater over the internet. I’m not a master typer. I debate far better in person.”

    It would be arrogant for me to say that I’m a good debater, but I will say that practice has made me improve. At the beginning of WoT vs. SoT, I didn’t really contribute anything. By the end I was trading Walls of Text left and right, so I’d recommend jumping in and avoid saying anything TOO stupid (which is pretty hard to do, we’ve all said some stupid shit). I certainly hope you stay.
    =
    “you friends with somebody named Eelfinn?”

    Only when three bastards enter our tower and steal our woman.

  28. Centurion-A001 January 16, 2015 at 5:48 pm -      #28

    ” I’d recommend jumping in and avoid saying anything TOO stupid (which is pretty hard to do, we’ve all said some stupid shit). I certainly hope you stay.”

    I’ll definitely stick around, and i’ll consider trying harder to get into some debates.
    .
    “Only when three bastards enter our tower and steal our woman.”

    lol, good one.

  29. nsl98 January 16, 2015 at 6:11 pm -      #29

    Heh. Demi-Mod. That’s punny.

    ———–

    Here’s some reaction feats:
    www.brickshelf.com/cgi-bin/gallery.cgi?i=3520593

    Next page:
    www.brickshelf.com/cgi-bin/gallery.cgi?i=3502749

    ——–

    And I have some questions about this balefire of Rand’s. Does it behave like regular fire? Can it be absorbed? Other Fire Toa weaker than Jaller have absorbed all the heat in a large area or survived volcanoes and stuff.

  30. PrimusxPilus January 16, 2015 at 6:28 pm -      #30

    Welcome Centurion. Good to see another Roman name.

    Rand WTFLOLBBQPWNS. No need for Sa’angreal

    “The trollocs surged forward, charging across the ground. Hundreds. Thousands. Ituralde gasped. Bashere uttered a quiet prayer.
    Al’Thor raised one hand, then thrust it- palm forward- towards the tide of shadowspawn.
    And they started to die.
    It began with waves of fire, much like the ones the Asha’man used. Only these waves were far larger. The flames burned terrible swaths of death through the trollocs. They followed the course of the land, seeping up the hill and down into the trenches, filling them with white-hot fire, searing and destroying.
    Clouds of Draghkar spun in the sky, diving for al’Thor, the air above him turned blue, and shards of ice exploded outward, spraying the air like arrows from the bows of an entire banner of archers [note: a banner is a thousand men strong]. The beasts shrieked their inhuman agony, carcasses tumbling to the ground.
    Light and power exploded from the Dragon Reborn. He was like an entire army of channelers. Thousands of shadowspawn died. Deathgates sprang up, striking across the ground, killing hundreds.
    The Asha’man Naeff- standing beside Bashere- gasped. “I’ve never seen so many weaves at once,” he whispered. “I can’t track them all. He’s a storm. A storm of light and streams of power!”
    Clouds began to form and swirl above the city. The wind picked up, howling, and lightning struck from above. Blasts of thunder overpowered the sounds of drums as Trollocs tried in vain to get to al’Thor, climbing over the burning carcasses of their brethren. The swirling white clouds crashed into the black, boiling tempest, intermingling. Wind spun around al’Thor, whipping at his cloak.
    The man himself seemed to be glowing. Was it a reflection of the swaths of fire, or perhaps the lightning blasts? Al’Thor seemed brighter then them all, his hand upraised against the shadowspawn. His maidens hunched near the ground on either side of him, eyes forward, shoulders set against the great wind.
    Clouds spinning about one another made funnels into the masses of Trollocs, sweeping across the top of the hill, taking up the creatures into the air. Great waterspouts rose behind, made of flesh and fire, the beasts rained down, falling upon the others. Ituralde watched with awe, the hair on his arms and head rising. There was an energy to the very air itself.
    A scream came from nearby. Within the building, in one of the nearby rooms. Ituralde did not turn away from the window. He had to watch this beautiful, terrible moment of destruction and power.
    Waves of trollocs broke, the drums faltering. Entire legions of them turned and fled, stumbling up the hillside and over one another, fleeing back towards the Blight. Some remained firm- too angry, too intimidated by those driving them, or too stupid to flee. The tempest of destruction seemed to come to a peak, flashes of light blasting down in time with howling wind, thrumming waves of burning flame, tinkling shards of ice.
    It was a masterwork. A terrible, destructive, wonderful masterwork. Al’Thor lifted his hand towards the sky. The wind grew faster, the lightning strikes larger, the fires hotter. Trollocs screamed, moaned, howled. Ituralde found himself trembling.
    Al’Thor closed his hand into a fist, and it all ended.
    The last of the wind seized Trollocs dropped from the sky like leaves abandoned by a passing breeze. Everything fell silent. The flames died, the black and white clouds cleared and opened to a blue sky.
    Al’Thor lowered his hand. The field before him was piled with carcasses. Tens of thousands of dead Trollocs smoldering. Directly before al’Thor, a pile a hundred paces wide formed a ridge five feet tall, a mound of dead that had nearly reached him.”
    -Towers of Midnight page 501

  31. Friendlysociopath January 16, 2015 at 6:31 pm -      #31

    As I understand it, Balefire is not ‘fire’ in the elemental sense. It doesn’t fall under the typical ‘fire/water/earth/wind’ categories.

    Likewise I don’t believe it has ever been ‘absorbed’ in any sense except for being deflected by that special material that I can’t spell off the top of my head.

  32. Centurion-A001 January 16, 2015 at 6:35 pm -      #32

    @nsl98 Balefire is closer to a laser.
    The Fires of Heaven pg 158
    “Instead of reaching for the sword again, he channeled as he remembered doing once long ago. Howling, the huge dogs leaped, and a thick shaft of white light shot from his hands, like molten steel, like liquid fire. He swept it across the springing creatures; for an instant they became strange shadows of themselves, all colors reversed, and then they were made of sparkling motes that broke apart, smaller and smaller, until there was nothing…
    …across the great chamber a piece of one of the columns crashed to the floor tiles. Where that bar of light-or whatever it had been; not light, exactly-had swung, neat slices were gone from the columns. A gaping swath cut half the width of the wall behind them.”

    pg 167 ‘When anything is destroyed with balefire, it ceases to exist before the moment of it’s destruction, like a thread that burns away from where the flame touched it.’

    Rand can spam pinkie-finger thick beams, or launch bars thicker than a man with his arms outstretched. Balefire has been said to be able to destroy planets, or reality itself.

    Cuendillar can stop it because it absorbs any force, ANY force, used against it and makes itself stronger.

  33. PrimusxPilus January 16, 2015 at 6:38 pm -      #33

    Balefire isn’t fire. It’s a bar of light that removed whatever it hits retroactively through time and space. If you have a soul it is removed from the multiverse until the Creator deems fit to weave you back in. It cannot be blocked except by Cuendillar, and if in the Wolf Dream by will/bending it away. It has been parted by Callandor, but that ability cannot be confirmed because it was in the Dream. It can kill the Dark One, a multiversal level threat and the equivalent of the Devil.

  34. nsl98 January 16, 2015 at 6:51 pm -      #34

    I don’t think Bionicles have souls, so to speak. They’re biomechanical. They have feelings and stuff, but in every Bionicle, they have a life-stone, a small stone that gives them life. As far as I can remember, there is no mention of souls in the Bionicle universe.

  35. PrimusxPilus January 16, 2015 at 6:54 pm -      #35

    TK well life force then. Compatible enough. If it hits a sentient creature, human, hound, shadowspawn, etc, the entire organism is removed. Non sentient items, like marble pillars, wooden planks, etc, only have that what balefire touches removed. Their life stone would qualify as their soul. Even soulless opponents, like a Gray Man, can be balefired.

  36. nsl98 January 16, 2015 at 7:01 pm -      #36

    @PxP

    OK. What’s your take on the scan in post 2? I wanna here others opinions besides one.

  37. PrimusxPilus January 16, 2015 at 7:06 pm -      #37

    Panel one reaffirms the characters luminosity, two shows a pulse looking attack. They call it light but that doesn’t necessarily mean it travels at that speed. They call it a beam when it’s showing a curved projectile, so that further separates itself from any veracity.

    TL;DR

    Could be a light “element” attack, but nothing shows it to be lightspeed nor any energy/damage it can inflict.

  38. nsl98 January 16, 2015 at 7:26 pm -      #38

    OK, but the author seems to think its light or something.
    ——-

    As if on cue, Umbra began to change. Before the Toa’s startled eyes, he changed from a physical being to a concentrated beam of light.

    -Bionicle: Inferno p. 68

  39. Friendlysociopath January 16, 2015 at 7:48 pm -      #39

    Question then, are the Bionicles in that series considered fast enough to have light speed reactions in that universe by the denizens of that universe?

    For example, are there instances of them moving faster than everyone around them can follow? Dodging bullets? Running straight up buildings? That sort of thing? If they don’t have any example of those basic speed feats then lightspeed reaction time is very unlikely.

    Lightspeed and lightning attacks are often taken with salt, as the implications behind being able to dodge them are not considered by creators of said works to the extent we do.
    As a bit of a rule, magic lightning/light attacks are almost never used as proof for lightning reaction times unless it’s very clear they are in fact traveling at lightspeed or near it.

    A specific example being Wheel of Time lightning, which is specifically stated to be actual lightning as it exists in our world.
    Where as lightning in say Legend of Zelda in one of Ganon’s boss fights isn’t suitable for lightning-timing because it doesn’t behave like lightning.

  40. nsl98 January 16, 2015 at 8:10 pm -      #40

    @Sociopath

    How are these?

    ——

    By vibrating his body’s molecules at high speed, he was able to pass his wrists through the chains and free himself.

    Shadows in the Sky p. 102

    ——-

    Before the To a of Air could protest, Nuparu had him halfway across the gorge.

    Power Play p. 40

    ——-

    More projectile dodging:

    www.brickshelf.com/cgi-bin/gallery.cgi?i=3502560

    ———

    Faster than her eye could follow, he whipped a boomerang at her.

    Swamp of Secrets p. 48

    ——

    “Now that you’re disarmed, and you can’t see,” he said. “That means you have about half a second to live, and that’s if your enemy is slow.”

    Swamp of Secrets p. 50

  41. Neon Lord January 16, 2015 at 8:44 pm -      #41

    “-Well, the beam has strands “fraying” from it that appear to be moving differently from normal light. But no, that doesn’t necessarily mean it isn’t being driven by normal physics and only guided by supernatural power, so it could very well be normal (albeit lethal) light. I was wrong.”

    The light in question is a character named Umbra. One of his powers is to turn into a beam of light. Ergo, light speed. However, the feat is a pretty large outlier.

    ““Devastate” isn’t quite the same thing as “annihilate”, and…”

    The only known case of a Nova Blast being used was a water one, which created a flood that destroyed the entire realm of Karzahni, which I believe is similarly sized to Metru Nui. Metru Nui is basically the same size as Mata Nui, which is around 400km long I think. At the very least, it is definitely a multiple kilometre wide blast since I have a quote to support that.

    The problem is that nova blasts take a long time to charge up, several minutes I think. So speed-blitz seems likely.

    “For example, are there instances of them moving faster than everyone around them can follow? Dodging bullets? Running straight up buildings? That sort of thing? If they don’t have any example of those basic speed feats then lightspeed reaction time is very unlikely.”

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZbCsJttSyE
    Slow as crap projectiles but still dodging.

    ” Running straight up buildings? ”

    If you have the Mask of Speed, potentially. But Jaller doesn’t.

    “By vibrating his body’s molecules at high speed, he was able to pass his wrists through the chains and free himself.
    Shadows in the Sky p. 102″

    I’m pretty sure that’s Pohatu with the Kakama Nuva.

    I guess Jaller might be able to set Rand’s clothes on fire, or suck all the heat out in the area and make him freeze, or shoot him with his Cordak Blaster (which can blow apart rock).

  42. nsl98 January 16, 2015 at 8:54 pm -      #42

    About the Cordak Blaster. In the Mahri Mini Movie, we see them shooting under water, and the rockets are going a fair amount of speed.
    ——–

    This is bullets traveling under water:
    m.youtube.com/watch?v=OubvTOHWTms
    ———

    The mini movie:
    m.youtube.com/watch?v=9HSyDrYjxyg

    ——–

    They appear about the same speed as bullets. Useless against Rand, but they do explode.

    @Neon

    It is Pohatu, but Friendly did ask for speed feats.

    And @Sociopath

    If you and other Pilers have started to write for the site, does this mean matches will go back to once a day? I soo wish I could join in the writing, but I don’t have a computer.

  43. Centurion-A001 January 16, 2015 at 9:00 pm -      #43

    “I guess Jaller might be able to set Rand’s clothes on fire, or suck all the heat out in the area and make him freeze, or shoot him with his Cordak Blaster (which can blow apart rock).”

    Rand can pull the heat out of the fire before it can burn him, create a field of heat to keep himself alive, and form a shield to block the blaster, while simultaneously launching numerous and destructive attacks of his own. See post 30 for an example of Rand’s destructive potential.

  44. Friendlysociopath January 16, 2015 at 9:10 pm -      #44

    It is Pohatu, but Friendly did ask for speed feats.

    I did, now we at least know it’s on the table. Could I get a video of the nova blast in action btw? That sounds awesome in a testosterone “I wanna see stuff destroyed” sort of way.

    If you and other Pilers have started to write for the site, does this mean matches will go back to once a day?

    I honestly don’t know. That’s up to Admin, I merely offered to help.

  45. nsl98 January 16, 2015 at 9:13 pm -      #45

    What are Jallers reactions then? I’m personally of the opinion that the beam was light speed. Multiple scans and passages support this.

  46. Neon Lord January 16, 2015 at 9:22 pm -      #46

    “@Neon
    It is Pohatu, but Friendly did ask for speed feats.”

    He has the Kakama Nuva though, which is pretty special…

    “I did, now we at least know it’s on the table. Could I get a video of the nova blast in action btw? That sounds awesome in a testosterone “I wanna see stuff destroyed” sort of way.”

    There’s only a written account, and it’s pretty disappointing if you want huge descriptions of destruction.
    bionicle.wikia.com/wiki/Toa_Nuva_Blog#Entry_7

  47. nsl98 January 16, 2015 at 9:26 pm -      #47

    @Friendly

    The nova blast is never shown on screen, only described in passages.

    —-

    Water Nova:

    Now I must make a choice – do I do what I must to stop Icarax, risking my friends’ lives (if they still live)? Or do I let him escape? There really is no choice. Even as he gloats over his triumph, I am summoning every last bit of moisture from the air for hundreds of kios around. I am merging it together, bending it to my will, preparing to unleash all my elemental power in one single explosion of force.
    And I do … and I hope to the Great Beings I never will again.
    A wall of water a thousand feet high crashes into the realm of Karzahni, shattering buildings, leveling everything and everyone in its path. I strain to make the currents obey, but cannot snatch the Staff from Icarax’s hand. I do succeed in using my mask power to allow my friends to breathe water.
    When the flood tide subsides, Icarax is gone and the Toa Nuva, somehow, survive. Of this realm, nothing is left … nothing but a Noble Hau floating on the water, one which once belonged to a hero. Tahu saves it from being lost, and that is good. I look around at the destruction I have caused, and wonder if too much has already been lost today.

    Gali Nuva Blog, Entry 7

    ——

    Note, a kio is equal .85 miles, and Talk summons water from thousands of them.

  48. Draco January 16, 2015 at 11:16 pm -      #48

    Alright, well…
    One thing i can mention is that Jaller, while under the ocean, was able to make use of his powers of fire underneath the ocean. Not only that but at one point was going to go Nova and was described that it would kill everyone there (about 12 people all under the ocean)

    Also, i have a quote for bionicle’s dodging lightning bolts. This one was the Toa Metru of Stone (stereo typically the slowest of all Toa)

    “…Just how unnatural it was became painfully obvious. A sudden flash of light almost blinded the Toa. an instant later, an impact sent Whenua crashing into his friends. Barely clinging to consciousness, the Toa of Earth said, “What in the name of Mata Nui was that?”
    “A lightning bolt,” answered Onewa, “a lightning bolt in an enclosed tunnel underground…

    As if the freak storm had heard him, a second bolt flew toward the Toa of Stone. Acting on reflex, Onewa dove to the side as the bolt struck the wall where he had been.”

    He dodged the bolt of lightning after it was shot. and this power comes from a natural ability of Weather Rakashi.

    that’s all from me for now.

  49. nsl98 January 16, 2015 at 11:18 pm -      #49

    Ugh, friggin auto correct. Talk, really? *Gal

    @Draco

    Woah! Which book is that from? One of the Adventures series? This pretty much cements high speed for future 1v1 Bionicle matches.

  50. Draco January 16, 2015 at 11:33 pm -      #50

    @nsl98
    It came from book 3 of the Legend of Metru Nui series. (The Darkness Below) There are a lot of feats in the books and background stories that really make them strong.

    Love bionicle. Wish i had all the books… there’s a lot that I’m missing.

  51. nsl98 January 16, 2015 at 11:35 pm -      #51

    @Draco

    I got em all. Chronicles, Metru Nui, Legends. I have most of the comics, except for the first two volumes, the Nuva. It was my childhood lol. It’s been so long though!

  52. Draco January 16, 2015 at 11:42 pm -      #52

    Oh wow, that’s awesome. I have a lot of the comics too but I am lacking a scanner in order to get more and more feats onto the web that isnt on a site I go to.

    It was my childhood too, and I still adore the story’s and the characters to this day,

  53. nsl98 January 16, 2015 at 11:44 pm -      #53

    www.brickshelf.com/cgi-bin/gallery.cgi?f=341157

    ———

    That’s them all. I take it your with Jaller then? I think it’s Team Rands move now.

  54. Centurion-A001 January 16, 2015 at 11:54 pm -      #54

    They may be the same speed, ish, but Rand can defend himself from everything Jaller can throw, and dish out far more punishment.

  55. nsl98 January 16, 2015 at 11:57 pm -      #55

    Whats the biggest attack Rands defended against? Cuz Jaller had the power to devastate this:

    img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20051229153026/bionicle/images/b/bb/Metrunui.jpg

  56. Centurion-A001 January 17, 2015 at 12:01 am -      #56

    He’s completely stopped lightning, fire hot enough to melt stone, lots of stuff. As I posted earlier, Rand has an impenetrable shield and balefire WILL kill Jaller.
    Besides, is that move Jaller’s opening move? Cause balefire is one of Rand’s favorite go-to moves.

  57. nsl98 January 17, 2015 at 12:07 am -      #57

    No, it’s last resort. Jaller typically goes for Cordak shots or flame shenanigans. And I know balefire kills. I skimmed some old threads. How fast is bale fire?

  58. Centurion-A001 January 17, 2015 at 12:14 am -      #58

    Typically accepted as lightspeed, but has been stated to travel across about ten miles, give or take, as “quick as a snap of the fingers” (Towers of Midnight pg 797).

    Yeah, Jaller probably wouldn’t get a chance to use his…Nova blast? Seeing as how it’s his last resort, while Rand would probably whip out balefire in the second volley of attacks.

  59. nsl98 January 17, 2015 at 12:16 am -      #59

    If Jaller has light speed reflexes, how will that hit him?

    —–

    Also, I’d like your honest opinion on who you think Jaller is a good match up for based on what’s been brought up on this thread. :)

  60. Centurion-A001 January 17, 2015 at 12:50 am -      #60

    “If Jaller has light speed reflexes, how will that hit him?”

    Rand could bind him up in ice and solid Air. Jaller would be able to break out, but all it would take is a split second, and Rand could do those three things, and more, simultaneously.
    .
    “Also, I’d like your honest opinion on who you think Jaller is a good match up for based on what’s been brought up on this thread.”

    Hmmm… Tatsumi from Akame Ga Kill perhaps. akamegakill.wikia.com/wiki/Tatsumi
    He is strong, fast, skilled, tough,especially with Incursio, but can’t level mountains or liquefy continents or wipe planets out of existence like Rand has been capable of doing.

    Another possibility could be Alex Mercer. prototype.wikia.com/wiki/Alex_Mercer
    Strong, fast, tough, could hurt Jaller and tough to put down because of regen, but Jaller could potentially burn him enough that he couldn’t heal, and Alex couldn’t absorb him due to his bio-mechanical nature.

  61. Draco January 17, 2015 at 2:10 am -      #61

    Toa of Fire, (an example being Tahu) could create a fireball larger than a mountain as a signal for help with the last bit of his strength.

    www.brickshelf.com/cgi-bin/gallery.cgi?i=3428371

    A Cordak blaster could destroy a giant piece of cabel holding up a very large island so that the island could sink into the ocean.

    www.brickshelf.com/cgi-bin/gallery.cgi?i=3428258
    www.brickshelf.com/cgi-bin/gallery.cgi?i=3428262

    Jaller going Nova would kill everyone. A giant burst of fire under the ocean.

    www.brickshelf.com/cgi-bin/gallery.cgi?i=3501928


    Also, about Jaller being lightspeed. it’s plausible that he is just because of how the properties of light stays the same and the way to deal with the foe was to create a mirror to reflect him around and around until he gave out.
    also…

    www.brickshelf.com/cgi-bin/gallery.cgi?i=3520592

    In a millasecond, Umbra disarms all 6 Toa.

  62. Ragnorke January 17, 2015 at 7:46 am -      #62

    Just going to address the “light attack”

    If something is specifically called “light”, I personally think it SHOULD be taken as lightspeed, unless there’s a reasonable reason as to why not.
    If something is called “laser”, in most fictions, it shouldn’t be considered lightspeed unless further supported, since Laser has begun referring to all kinds of energy rather than just light.

    There’s a few nitpicks about that specific feat though;
    1. The light was curved away from the target, meaning it would take less time to successfully dodge it.
    2. The light was splitting up and wasn’t following natural patterns, implying it is imperfect and is losing energy to the surrounding, which could mean less speed.
    3. Aim dodging is likely a big factor here.
    Even a 0.1 second head start can result in dodging things that would be exponentially more difficult to dodge.
    Example:
    0.1 sec headstart = dodging 100m/s
    0.2 sec headstart = dodging 300m/s
    0.3 sec headstart = dodging 1500m/s
    So on.
    The reason is because the distance of the source of attack and you is always constant, and the distance you need to move to avoid it is always constant.
    If you get a large enough headstart, you could potentially dodge ANYTHING regardless of its speed.

  63. nsl98 January 17, 2015 at 12:16 pm -      #63

    *Sigh* It looks as if Rand out powers Jaller here. He may have the reflexes to keep up, but Rands magic wins here. Would this qualify as stomp?

  64. Centurion-A001 January 17, 2015 at 4:31 pm -      #64

    That would depend on your definition. A true and complete stomp was Superman vs Master Chief. There was absolutely nothing Chief could do to Superman so stomp.
    Here, there was at least the potential, however small, that Jaller could do something to win, so I would say no…but to each his own

  65. Draco January 17, 2015 at 6:30 pm -      #65

    @Ragnorke

    Umbra specifically refers to his power as light. As well as the Toa.

    To respond to your nitpicks.

    1: the light did curve, but only because Umbra was manipulating it to hit people.
    2: explain further?
    3:You’d need a pretty big headstart to dodge something that is, or at least close to, lightspeed though. and I’d say that he was roughly 20-30 feet from them both times he charged at them.

  66. Friendlysociopath January 17, 2015 at 7:08 pm -      #66

    2: explain further?

    I’ll try an analogy- which has more energy?
    A river following one course and stays together?
    Or a river that is steadily being separated into smaller rivers?
    (please analogy gods be on my side)

  67. Draco January 18, 2015 at 12:32 am -      #67

    @friendly
    That is true, however, the light stayed in one line most of the time and frayed only slightly (possibly just a glow or effect of the artist).
    And while it did curve and move, it was being manipulated by Umbra.

    if it is weaker, it is only slightly.

  68. Aelfinn January 18, 2015 at 3:20 am -      #68

    That “light” was clearly not acting like light, unless light comes out of lightbulbs as giant discs. That should be enough to disprove it, as the phenomenon needs to be acting as it would in nature for it to be a feat. Any amount of unnatural manipulation throws everything about the attack into question. Furthermore, the scan showing that Umbra “disarmed them all in a millisecond” throws heavy, HEAVY doubt into claims of lightspeed reactions. If they truly had lightspeed reactions, a millisecond would have given them all the time in the world to deal with Umbra.
    =
    On a side note on what Rand could do: freeze Jaller solid, melt him, wrap him in the air itself for a while, possibly explode him, hit him with lightning, generate an explosion at Jaller’s feet, slice him in half with a deathgate, and the ever-favorite balefire. He could probably do at least half of these at once, but probably all of them.

  69. Draco January 18, 2015 at 4:21 am -      #69

    Alright i’ll drop said lightspeed reaction timing. however, they did react to Umbra after his first attack giving Jaller himself a decent reaction timing along with the lightning dodging feat earlier.

    Any toa of fire can absorb flame and use it for elemental energy or release all of it in one blast or not at all.
    Although, all those abilities at once will be hard to react to. But maybe it could work out. not sure though.

  70. nsl98 January 18, 2015 at 7:49 am -      #70

    But the author reaffirms that it’s light though. I posted the quote in #38 but I’ll post it again:

    ———-

    As if on cue, Umbra began to change. Before the Toa’s startled eyes, he changed from a physical being to a concentrated beam of light.

    -Bionicle: Inferno p. 68

  71. Friendlysociopath January 18, 2015 at 9:38 am -      #71

    slice him in half with a deathgate

    I thought Deathgates were only good for Shadowspawn?

    Before the Toa’s startled eyes, he changed from a physical being to a concentrated beam of light.

    Turning into light =/= lightspeed attacks without sufficient backup evidence.

  72. nsl98 January 18, 2015 at 10:11 am -      #72

    If something is made of light and attempting to blitz you, why wouldn’t it be considered light speed? It specifically describes Umbra as a being made of light. To quote official Lego information:

    “The Light of Vengeance!

    The first guardian ever created for the Mask of Life, Umbra uses his super speed, laser lance, and ability to transform himself into a beam of light to defeat all enemies.”

  73. Ragnorke January 18, 2015 at 12:39 pm -      #73

    As far as I’m concerned, all “light” moves at the same speed.
    If it’s a beam of light, it’s a lightspeed attack.

    That doesn’t take away from any of the other points that I mentioned though, which make the feat a bit less impressive.

  74. Aelfinn January 18, 2015 at 1:32 pm -      #74

    Hmm, that scan is weird. I thought there was some circular blast of light, but that doesn’t appear to be the case. Anyway, aim-dodging, lucky guesses, that fact that it’s an outlier, and the fact that they demonstrate explicitly less-than lightspeed reactions should show that Jaller shouldn’t have lightspeed reactions.
    =
    “I thought Deathgates were only good for Shadowspawn?”

    Only shadowspawn or other bio-engineered things will die when they go through a deathgate, so you’re right in that regard. However, the deathgate will still slice apart anything it opens over, regardless of what that thing is.

  75. Soulerous January 18, 2015 at 2:34 pm -      #75

    However, the feat is a pretty large outlier.
    -It’s not even a feat. It’s far too ambiguous. Umbra could have aimed poorly or been trying to intimidate rather than kill for all we know. Calling it an outlier is being generous.

  76. Draco January 18, 2015 at 4:22 pm -      #76

    @Soulerous
    Umbra was there to protect the Mask of Life. He would die and kill to protect such a powerful mask (one that had created all life in the bionicle universe and, if destroyed, would destroy all life as well.)

    @Aelfinn
    There are far more people in the Bionicle-verse that use light as a weapon just like Umbra.

    Takanuva, the Toa of Light, makes use of beams of light (actual light) against the makuta.

    in the Phantoka Era, Ghost blasters were made specifically to combat makuta and used light as well.

  77. Aelfinn January 18, 2015 at 4:54 pm -      #77

    Just because light is being used as a weapon doesn’t mean light-speed reactions still isn’t an outlier, especially when the comics themselves give us a time-frame for what it took to disarm them.

    It takes light 0.0000001668 seconds to go 50 meters.
    One millisecond is 5995.8 times longer than that.
    Human reaction time is about 0.2 seconds.
    Proportionally, if they had lightspeed reactions, all of that dis-arming would have lasted almost 20 minutes for them.
    Jaller could have taken a long shit and still had time to get out of the way if he had lightspeed reactions.

  78. Soulerous January 18, 2015 at 4:59 pm -      #78

    Umbra was there to protect the Mask of Life. He would die and kill to protect such a powerful mask (one that had created all life in the bionicle universe and, if destroyed, would destroy all life as well.)
    -Good to know, but that doesn’t exactly tell us he wasn’t saying “get away” with that first sweep of the light beam.

  79. nsl98 January 18, 2015 at 5:41 pm -      #79

    @Soulerous

    I think Umbra makes it pretty clear he’s there to kick butt and take names:

    “The Protodax are violent beasts,” Umbra replied. “They do not kill with honor—- they simply kill. I leave them to the simpleminded Rahi who accidentally wander down this far, but those with heart and spirit are mine to destroy.”

    Inferno p. 66-67

  80. Soulerous January 18, 2015 at 6:06 pm -      #80

    I think Umbra makes it pretty clear he’s there to kick butt and take names:
    -That does not exclude the possibility of a “Raaah! Fear Me!” type of first attack. The panel gives no sign that the toa were in the path of the light beam before if passed. It could have been poor aim, but Umbra may also have not tried to aim well at that moment anyway.

  81. nsl98 January 18, 2015 at 6:32 pm -      #81

    The panel shows Jaller leaping out of the way.

    ——

    And:

    Jaller just managed to push Nuparu out of the way before the laser-like Umbra struck him. Their foe’s light form melted a hole in the back wall, then shot back toward the Toa.

    Inferno P. 68

  82. Soulerous January 18, 2015 at 7:10 pm -      #82

    The panel shows Jaller leaping out of the way.
    -This one does not.
    ~
    And:
    -That’s much better.

  83. nsl98 January 18, 2015 at 7:22 pm -      #83

    “-This one does not”

    ——–

    He looks to be in a diving motion.

    ———

    “And:”
    -That’s much better.

    ^Is that sarcasm??

  84. Soulerous January 18, 2015 at 7:30 pm -      #84

    He looks to be in a diving motion.
    -He could also be crouching, but either way, we do not see him dodging the light.
    ~
    ^Is that sarcasm??
    -No. It is better because the evasion is made explicit. We know for a fact that it took place.

  85. nsl98 January 18, 2015 at 8:08 pm -      #85

    So, great, now I need to prove its real light or something? I honestly don’t see why it’s doubtful. Canon info on Umbra states that he attacks with a beam of light. Character statements both in the comic and novel state its a beam of light. Light travels at light speed.

  86. Soulerous January 18, 2015 at 8:11 pm -      #86

    So, great, now I need to prove its real light or something?
    -I think that’s covered by this quote:
    ~
    “The Light of Vengeance!
    The first guardian ever created for the Mask of Life, Umbra uses his super speed, laser lance, and ability to transform himself into a beam of light to defeat all enemies.”

    ~
    Just needs to be sourced.

  87. nsl98 January 18, 2015 at 8:38 pm -      #87

    @Soulerous

    I got that quote from Umbra’s set info in the back of a Bionicle Comic. Here’s another which says pretty much the same thing:

    web.archive.org/web/20060621141754/http://shop.lego.com/product.asp?p=8625

    ———

    To quote the site: “How do you stop something so fast it turns into a beam of light?”

  88. Draco January 18, 2015 at 11:58 pm -      #88

    @Nsl98
    Ah man, you got quotes from books i haven’t read XD. Good thing you’re here to assist.

  89. nsl98 January 19, 2015 at 7:20 am -      #89

    @Draco
    No problem. I just want Jaller to be a worthy opponent for his debut.:)

  90. jesusfreak155 February 13, 2015 at 11:05 am -      #90

    First time I’m commenting on a thread here, though I enjoy reading the back and forth. However, because of what rand brings to the table in one on one matches, odds are that he wins. Rand can dish out a lot of punishment, like hell on wheels. He is focused, devious, durable, fast, and doesn’t kid around when there’s killing to be done. I think Rand should be pitted again demigods to make it more likely that he will exert himself to win.

  91. jesusfreak155 February 13, 2015 at 11:48 am -      #91

    Rand brings too much versatility to this fight. I won’t go on about his possible attacks and defenses, I just want to remind us that he could possibly pull off quite a number of attacks simultaneously, while defending as well. That’s part of why rand is so….you may dodge one or two weaves if they are thrown one after the other. But about twelve weaves simultaneously with little or no recharge time, not to mention that some could start in your body? ? ? And not one wave at a time but in an endless barrage?

  92. Nsl98 February 17, 2015 at 2:41 pm -      #92

    The main argument was really about whether or not Jaller’s reflexes would be enough to dodge enough weaves to get in close.

  93. Aelfinn February 17, 2015 at 5:35 pm -      #93

    Can’t really say too much, but I will point out that while I disagree with Jaller having lightspeed reactions (it seems way too out of place for me), he’s not going to be dodging the weaves anyway. They’re invisible to anyone who can’t channel the One Power, so Rand can instantly spawn hill-melting fire on Jaller.

  94. Nsl98 February 17, 2015 at 11:46 pm -      #94

    But canon info on Umbra states that he transforms into a beam of light. Not a laser, an actual beam of light.

    -Jaller dodged Umbra’s attempt to blitz him.
    -Umbra was in his light mode
    -Again, canon info states it’s an actual beam of light

    I’m a firm believer it’s a light speed reaction feat.

  95. Aelfinn February 18, 2015 at 8:44 pm -      #95

    “I’m a firm believer it’s a light speed reaction feat.”

    It may be, but I feel an explanation such as “he had a lucky guess”, is slightly better, considering all the other events surrounding Jaller. Firstly, we know that this light-based character casually disarmed all the Toa(?) before they could react. Secondly, from what I’ve seen at least, Jaller isn’t going around casually pulling off lightspeed-reactions in other events. It can always be argued that Jaller has PIS in those other instances, but it’s more likely that the light-speed character had a moment of PIS, rather than Jaller has PIS in ALL other instances.
    =
    Also, this is a quote from Fires of Heaven, page 681.

    “A memory slid across his emptiness. Not his; Lews Therin’s. For once he did not care. In an instant he channeled, and a ball of fire enveloped the top of a hill nearly five miles away, a churning mass of pale yellow flame. When it faded, he could see without the looking glass that the hill was lower now, and black at the crest, seemingly melted.
    =
    Rand has Lews Therin’s memories, and towards the end of the series was integrated with him/they were one person.

  96. Nsl98 February 18, 2015 at 9:24 pm -      #96

    Oh, I know Rand wins this. I just want to figure out where Jaller’s reactions sit, so its not brought up again.

    —-
    And I did post feats of Jaller dodging other lasers, but those are most likely LNA’s.

    —-

    Aelfinn, do you recommend reading WoT? I’m kinda bored with what I recently read and am looking to expand my raeding. I’ve read some high fantasy novels before and I’ve heard good things about WoT.

  97. Aelfinn February 18, 2015 at 10:25 pm -      #97

    “I just want to figure out where Jaller’s reactions sit, so its not brought up again.”

    Anything around lightspeed is generally argued every single time it is brought up, unless it’s for a character that is fairly clearly lightspeed, such as Silver Age Flash or Superman. It’s one of those things that can make or break a fight, so at the very least I’d recommend suggesting fights with Jaller that don’t require him to have lightspeed RT for him to even stand a chance.
    =
    “Aelfinn, do you recommend reading WoT? I’m kinda bored with what I recently read and am looking to expand my raeding. I’ve read some high fantasy novels before and I’ve heard good things about WoT.”

    I can’t recommend it enough. The first…three? Four? Six? books in the series are legitimately the best fantasy novels I’ve ever read, and I’ve read Narnia, Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter, and A Song of Ice and Fire (If I had to pick one of the Wheel of Time books, it would be the second one. It still gives me chills every time I read it, and NO other book, bar none, does that). Critics of the series point to how it slows down in the second half. I still think the second half is great, so it’s a VERY subjective thing, and I recommend you give it a shot as there is some very important character growth in those later books. Another author takes over for the last three books, and while I disagree with many of the thematic and personality choices he makes, those last three books are absolutely filled with pants-rocking action, so if you find some books achingly slow, there is a pay-off.

    The first book will give you a very “Lord of the Rings, classic fantasy feel”, but I propose that’s done purposefully (for thematic reasons), and it does an excellent job presenting the world, characters, and concepts to the reader. The series then takes what it established in the first book and does some fantastic things in the second and beyond.

  98. Nsl98 February 18, 2015 at 10:42 pm -      #98

    Cool, might have to check it out, then. Thanks for the recommendation! If it’s really as good as LoTR, I’m already salivating…

    —-
    I’m used to slowness in high fantasy *cough Shannara cough* so I could prolly handle the pacing.
    —-

    Time to hit the library, I guess.

  99. Jake_Uzumaki February 18, 2015 at 11:29 pm -      #99

    @Aelfinn
    uhm…hey would you mind checking my math in post 83 in Naruto vs MoS Superman? I really don’t trust my own calculating ability and…either I royally screwed up or I major league ramped up Naruto’s durability..

  100. Aelfinn February 19, 2015 at 12:20 am -      #100

    “If it’s really as good as LoTR, I’m already salivating…”

    Well, that’s my opinion, at least. I hold a slightly lower opinion of LoTR than most, so bear in mind that this is completely subjective. My point still stands, though: I absolutely love it. The “Aelfinn” do come from Wheel of Time, after all.
    =
    “uhm…hey would you mind checking my math in post 83 in Naruto vs MoS Superman? “

    Done. Also, I calc’d the moon scene.

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