CTF – LOST Island

CTF - LOST Island

Brought to you by sadot06

TEAM ONE:
Master Chief (Halo), Vash the Stampede, Hawkeye (Marvel), Archangel Michael (Dominion), Hei (Darker than Black)

TEAM TWO:
Boba Fett (Star Wars), Wesley Gibson, The Punisher, Archangel (X-Men), Batman (DC Comics)

Fight takes place on the Island from LOST.

Standard equipment. Additional weapons will be spread across the Island. The smoke monster is present and will attack if it encounters anyone.

Which side wins?

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388 Comments on "CTF – LOST Island"

  1. The Terror December 21, 2014 at 8:31 am -      #301

    I have proof that Vash can tag Angel! Bullets travel at mach 3 to 4 and you only proved that Angel is mach 5. Now Vash was shot at by five men all shooting machine guns and not only did he dodged them he counted every single bullet shot. This puts him at least a little bit under hypersonic. Plus he can fly which is not disputable. ( try saying that five times fast)

    FIRST!

  2. Ragnorke December 21, 2014 at 8:32 am -      #302

    “I don’t have to prove he has the power of possession anymore than I have to prove people with super strength can cause decapitation with a punch. Angels can possess humans. ”

    You mean like how i shouldn’t have had to prove that a guy with wings can dive?
    Since you know… That’s how physics works.
    But you insisted on proof anyways, since you claimed it would be against the characters CiS.

    “Way to misrepresent the argument.”

    No, you’re straying away from it.

    “And where is this scan?”

    Posted atleast 3 times on this thread. Goodluck.

    “The only thing Archangel is going to maneuver into is a headshot or soul rape.”

    You’re just ignoring calculations at this point.
    Maths > Your useless assumption.

  3. Ragnorke December 21, 2014 at 8:37 am -      #303

    @Terror
    “Bullets travel at mach 3 to 4″

    No… They don’t…
    The average bullet is Mach 1

    “and you only proved that Angel is mach 5.”

    What?
    Mach 5 is the absolute lowest Hypersonic. The X-Jet is very likely between Mach 5-10.
    And Angel was FASTER than the X-Jet. Not the same speed.

    “Now Vash was shot at by five men all shooting machine guns and not only did he dodged them he counted every single bullet shot. This puts him at least a little bit under hypersonic.”

    Big Big BIG BIG BIG mathematical error.
    Dodging something of a certain speed doesn’t put you at that speed.
    Since you only need to take ONE step to either side of you, or just twitch your body in a direction, to avoid a bullet.
    Dodging a bullet doesn’t make you anywhere NEAR the speed of a bullet.

    Vash isn’t Hypersonic. He isn’t even Sonic. I already did calculations for this.

  4. Ragnorke December 21, 2014 at 8:42 am -      #304

    Real life airforce jets are capable of Mach 5 for fucks sake.
    The X-Jet is created using alien technology and what not, it’s entire purpose is being faster than any other jet. there’s no way we should assume it’s the same speed.

  5. The Terror December 21, 2014 at 8:46 am -      #305

    @Ragnorke
    answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080409184012AAlB1yQ
    www.answers.com/Q/Can_hypersonic_aircraft_fly_faster_than_bullets

    There were five guys shooting at the same time. To dodge all of them without a scratch you need to be able to match that speed and that is without counting them.

    vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/Vash_the_Stampede

  6. Ragnorke December 21, 2014 at 8:51 am -      #306

    @Terror
    Neither of those are viable proof.
    Those are almost laughable sources.

    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypersonic_speed
    www.google.com.bh/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=speed+of+average+bullet

    Average Bullets are between Mach 0.8-1.2, also known as Transonic.
    Sniper bullets and such are obviously faster, but that isn’t the case here.

    As a rule of thumb, never post something from either of those sites again.

  7. The Terror December 21, 2014 at 8:54 am -      #307

    @Ragnorke
    WHAT LANGUAGE ARE YOU LOOKING IN!?

  8. sadot06 December 21, 2014 at 8:59 am -      #308

    “You mean like how i shouldn’t have had to prove that a guy with wings can dive?
    Since you know… That’s how physics works.
    But you insisted on proof anyways, since you claimed it would be against the characters CiS.”

    Still not the argument. And I don’t remotely trust your maths.

  9. Ragnorke December 21, 2014 at 9:02 am -      #309

    A bullet has a width of 0.2cm. That’s 0.002m.
    If Vash was 10m
    /
    Whoops, a bullet is almost mach 2, not 1.
    /
    680 = 10/t
    time = 0.0015
    /
    v = 0.002m / 0.0015
    v = 1.3
    /
    1.3 x 5 = 6.5
    6.5 x 5 = 32.5

    Vash was moving at 32.5 m/s
    In a short burst.

    This doesn’t seem too impressive, but you need to take into consideration he was given almost no time to accelerate, and wasn’t given any momentum.

    So yes, it is Superhuman, but comparing it to Hypersonic (or even Transonic) is laughable.

    It was a good reaction time feat though, gotta give him that.

  10. Ragnorke December 21, 2014 at 9:10 am -      #310

    @Sadot
    “Still not the argument.”

    If you can’t prove it’s in Micheals character to possess someone, he isn’t going to posses someone.
    That is the EXACT same argument you were using.
    Ironic isn’t it?

    “And I don’t remotely trust your maths.”

    Oh i’m sorry… do you think i give a fuck?

    I write down every step of my calculations in its most simplistic forms.
    Any uncertainties, i mention.

    If you were smart enough, perhaps you could challenge them.
    But you haven’t. And no one here has.

    Heck i even write down the exact principles and formulas i use before starting a more complicated calc.
    So if you can’t dispute it, stfu.

  11. Ragnorke December 21, 2014 at 9:12 am -      #311

    In post #309, second line
    There’s a missing word. I meant to say “if Vash was 10m away”

  12. Ragnorke December 21, 2014 at 9:30 am -      #312

    Okay.. umm… I made a huge fuck up

    First step of my calc:
    “680 = 10 / t ”
    the correct answer for Time is 0.015 seconds. Not 0.0015.

    That ends up meaning Vashes velocity was 3.25m/s, not 32.

    Noticed it when i tried calculating Vashes acceleration and got 888… Which was too high of an answer.
    So, back to the Acceleration calc:
    /
    v = u + at
    (3.25 – 0) / 0.015 = a
    a = 216 m/s^2.

    It’s a fast acceleration, but you need to keep in mind that it’s just 1 short burst of it, rather than sustained. And it only got him to a top speed of 3.25 m/s. (because he never stayed accelerating in the same direction for a second)
    And even that 1 short burst isn’t as fast as Angels sustained acceleration. (oh, and archangel is faster.)

    Also, this is already considering that he was dodging multiple bullets from multiple sources. So don’t bother mentioning that.

  13. The Terror December 21, 2014 at 9:38 am -      #313

    @Ragnorke
    answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20060818230640AAHrxvN
    www.mythbusterstheexhibition.com/science-content/dodge-a-bullet/
    askville.amazon.com/fast-bullet-travel/AnswerViewer.do?requestId=69071589

  14. Ragnorke December 21, 2014 at 9:40 am -      #314

    @Terror
    Every single link you’re posting is supporting what i said.

    I think you’re confusing the units.

    “The problem is that sound travels at 768 miles per hour (1,126 feet per second)—about half the speed of the bullet”

    768 x 2 = 1500 mph
    that’s mach 2 or 3

    “The average bullet travels at 2,500 feet per second (around 1,700 mph).”

    All your links agree with me…
    where did you get mach 4 or 5 from?

  15. sadot06 December 21, 2014 at 9:44 am -      #315

    All of your calcs are huge fuckups.

  16. Ragnorke December 21, 2014 at 9:47 am -      #316

    “All of your calcs are huge fuckups.”

    Then correct them o mighty mathematician.

  17. Ragnorke December 21, 2014 at 9:48 am -      #317

    Why don’t you correct these too?

    “There’s no way he’s further than a kilometer from the shore.
    So:
    /
    x = (u + v)t / 2
    1,000m = (0 + 1,000m/s)t/2
    2,000m = 1,000m/s T
    ttime = 2 seconds
    /
    x = at^2 + ut
    1,000 = a4 + 0
    acceleration = 250 m/s^2
    /
    F = ma
    F = 700kg (Sharks are heavy yo) x 250 m/s^2
    Force = 175,000N”

  18. sadot06 December 21, 2014 at 9:51 am -      #318

    tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DodgeTheBullet

    www.chacha.com/question/how-fast-would-you-have-to-be-to-dodge-a-bullet

    www.mythbusterstheexhibition.com/science-content/dodge-a-bullet/

    Vash is way faster than you’re giving him credit for.

    But yes, there is no way in fuck he’s hypersonic.

  19. Ragnorke December 21, 2014 at 9:51 am -      #319

    Oh, and don’t forget to correct these:

    “Projectile travels at = 3,400,000/10 = 340,000 m/s
    Archangel flys at 3,500 m/s (assuming it took it 10 seconds to reach the moon)
    The Projectile needs to travel 6,000m (height of clouds), which will take 0.02 seconds.
    Archangel needs to move about 1 meter (size of projectile) to dodge the projectile, which he can do in 0.0003 seconds.
    Archangel can essentially dodge a hundred of those projectiles.

    Even if you increase the size of the projectile from 1 meter to 10 meters. (which is bullshit)
    Or if you decrease the time it takes for the projectile to reach the moon from 10 seconds to 1 second. (which you would need to prove)
    Archangel would STILL be able to dodge TEN of those projectiles.”

  20. Ragnorke December 21, 2014 at 9:53 am -      #320

    @Sadot
    “Vash is way faster than you’re giving him credit for.”

    None of the links you posted disagree with me.
    Literally NONE of them disagree with me.

    Correct my “mistakes” or gtfo.

    My calcs for his Acceleration and Velocity make PERFECT sense.

  21. The Terror December 21, 2014 at 9:55 am -      #321

    When I see you guys argue I can’t help but lol at it.

    @Ragnorke
    Earlier you said bullets are transonic or mach .8 to 1.2 and later you even said comparing it to transonic was laughable. I got the 4 to 5 from the first two links on the page and I said that puts him under hypersonic.

    One more thing, if a whole town said they saw UFO, but there is no proof and it isn’t April Fools Day would you think they are lying?

  22. Ragnorke December 21, 2014 at 9:56 am -      #322

    @Sadot
    Rofl: www.chacha.com/question/how-fast-would-you-have-to-be-to-dodge-a-bullet

    The dude literally JUST says “A bullet travels 650-1100 mph depending on the gun. So you would have to travel faster than this”

    That made me laugh.
    Nice.
    And you think my calcs are wrong.

  23. Ragnorke December 21, 2014 at 9:59 am -      #323

    @Terror
    “When I see you guys argue I can’t help but lol at it.”

    We aren’t arguing. I don’t think Sadot has ever taken a maths class.

    “Earlier you said bullets are transonic or mach .8 to 1.2 and later you even said comparing it to transonic was laughable.”

    Terror. Listen to my words carefully.
    Dodging a bullet does not make you as fast as the bullet.
    I SPECIFICALLY calculated how fast Vash would be moving and accelerating, and his speed was laughable compared to most Sonic speeds.

    “I got the 4 to 5 from the first two links on the page and I said that puts him under hypersonic.”

    All the valid links you posted said around 1,600 mph. That’s low end supersonic. Close to transonic.
    Not even close to Hyper.

    “One more thing, if a whole town said they saw UFO, but there is no proof and it isn’t April Fools Day would you think they are lying?”

    Yes.
    Relevance of this?

  24. Ragnorke December 21, 2014 at 10:15 am -      #324

    To be as crystal clear as possible:

    Vash has a velocity of 3.25 m/s
    And a burst acceleration of 216 m/s^2 (over the course of a full second.)

    You do not need high velocity to dodge a bullet. At all.
    Considering a bullet only has a width of 0.002m. Dodging it is not difficult as long as you’re capable of reacting and accelerating in time.

    This acceleration is referred to as a burst acceleration. It is the amount by which an isolated group of muscles accelerate for a single motion.
    forexample, the isolated acceleration your leg has for every step you take.
    Or the isolated acceleration your arm has when you throw a punch.

    This is NOT the same as sustained acceleration, which refers to the “average” acceleration the “entire” body accelerates at, over a prolonged period of time.

    Burst acceleration should ALWAYS be higher than sustained acceleration.
    It is physically impossible for that to not be the case.
    Because sustained acceleration is the combination of many isolated movements.

    The thing is, Vashes BURST acceleration is still slower than Angels SUSTAINED acceleration.
    Get it now?

    Meaning, in any situation imaginable, if both characters are given a second to perform any action, Angel will always be faster.
    Whether it be picking up a rock. Running in a straight line. Dodging something. Turning the page of a book.
    (The exception ofcourse comes with knowledge and experience. Certain people are just naturally better at doing a certain task,a nd can perform it more effeciently)

  25. The Terror December 21, 2014 at 10:17 am -      #325

    “All the valid links you posted said around 1,600 mph. That’s low end supersonic. Close to transonic.”
    And I qoute, ” Average speed for a 9mm handgun round is about 1100 feet per second. Some large caliber rifle rounds travel at speeds up to and beyond 4000 feet per second.”
    going by that Wikipedia page you were so kind to post hypersonic is only 1,710-3,415 per second putting that rifle at high hypersonic.

    The Mythbusters put it as “The average bullet travels at 2,500 feet per second” which is still hypersonic.

    And then there is this: ” Average M-16 bullet (3000 fps) travels 30 feet in 1/100th of a second. That’s very very fast. About 6336 miles per hour (mph).” which is… High hypersonic.

    “Yes.
    Relevance of this?”
    1. how can whole town be lying if its not April Fools Day.
    2. I wanted to see your answer.
    3. If a whole town says the same thing they most likely not lying and maybe saw something that looked like one.
    4. no longer needed

  26. Friendlysociopath December 21, 2014 at 10:21 am -      #326

    I’m not sure whether I like people more when they debate on my side or against it.

  27. The Terror December 21, 2014 at 10:24 am -      #327

    @Ragnorke
    Your calculations would most likely hold if it wasn’t for the fact that those bullets were by 5 men carrying fully automatic weapons firing at the same time. This makes it a whole lot harder to dodge and would require Vash to consecutively use burst acceleration to dodge them all and he would have to be on around the same speed as the bullets.

  28. Ragnorke December 21, 2014 at 10:26 am -      #328

    @Terror
    Lets take a look at everything you posted

    1. answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080409184012AAlB1yQ

    Not a valid source. The end.

    2. www.answers.com/Q/Can_hypersonic_aircraft_fly_faster_than_bullets

    Not a valid source.
    But just so you know… According to this link, planes can travel at Mach 10…
    Still think it’s valid?

    3. askville.amazon.com/fast-bullet-travel/AnswerViewer.do?requestId=69071589

    According to this link, the fastest bullet in existence is 2,700 mph. Which still isn’t hypersonic.
    And i quote: “The bullet with credit for being fastest is the Winchester .223 Super Short Magnum; it’s reached observed velocities of about 1220 m/sec, 4000 feet/second or 2,700 mph”

    4. www.mythbusterstheexhibition.com/science-content/dodge-a-bullet/

    They say the Average bullet is 1,700 mph.
    Hypersonic is 3,900 mph and above.

    5. answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20060818230640AAHrxvN

    Not a valid source.
    BUT he still says the average bullet is low-end Supersonic. Not even close to Hyper.

    To be honest, i’m 99% sure you’re confusing units.
    Make sure you can tell the difference between Mph, k/h, F/s, and m/s

  29. Ragnorke December 21, 2014 at 10:29 am -      #329

    “Your calculations would most likely hold if it wasn’t for the fact that those bullets were by 5 men carrying fully automatic weapons firing at the same time”

    I already took this into consideration in my calculation.
    And i specifically told you that i took this into consideration in my calculation.
    Did you even TRY to read it?

    “This makes it a whole lot harder to dodge and would require Vash to consecutively use burst acceleration to dodge them all ”

    I know.
    And 216 was the average of all of those bursts.

    Honestly, if you aren’t going to legitimately try and dispute my calcs, please don’t argue with it.
    Why do you think i write every step instead of just the final answer?
    It’s to help you guys follow what i’m doing, and to give you guys a chance to argue/debate on exactly where i may have fucked up.
    If you’re just going to be like Sadot and say “Hur Dur you’re wrong caus i’m so awesome and know everything, but i can’t say why you’re wrong”… Just don’t bother.

  30. Ragnorke December 21, 2014 at 10:37 am -      #330

    @Friendlysociopath
    …What side are you on? o.o

  31. The Terror December 21, 2014 at 11:01 am -      #331

    @Ragnorke
    Well I straight up messed up. What speed are you putting Vash? Also let me clarify something. I don’t plan on plan on doing the math to figure it out.

  32. Ragnorke December 21, 2014 at 11:11 am -      #332

    @The Terror
    “Well I straight up messed up. What speed are you putting Vash?”

    Tbh we don’t have a good feat to calculate his “speed” yet. Since speed refers to velocity.

    His acceleration however (used to calculate how fast he can punch/dodge/move a limb), is 216 m/s^2, give or take about 25%.
    This is only for a specific isolated movement though, and it’s unlikely his entire body can average out at this acceleration for over a fraction of a second.

    Angels entire body accelerates at an average sustained 250m/s^2. Give or take 25%
    Archangel can be assumed as almost twice as fast. (since he took on entire teams of mutants at once, with relative ease)

    F = ma,
    175,000N = 20kg (guessing his wings don’t weigh more than 20 kilos…) x Acceleration
    Isolated Acceleration of Wings = 8,750m/s^2
    About 40 times faster acceleration compared to Vash.

    ^ that’s normal Angel. Not Arch.
    But keep in mind that’s only his Wings.

  33. Ragnorke December 21, 2014 at 11:25 am -      #333

    You need to realize that dodging bullets, even from automatic machine guns, is not impressive for the characters in this match.

    Even batman, who’s the most “normal” character here, has dodged automatic machine gun fire (while running towards it, in a tunnel, might i add), and point blank bullets.

    Archangels wings can block just about anything, and can hit just about anything, as far as this match is concerned.
    He doesn’t even need to dive bomb like i was previously suggesting.

    Heck he can just use his energy beams to cause all the trees to collapse.

  34. The Terror December 21, 2014 at 11:29 am -      #334

    “Archangels wings can block just about anything, and can hit just about anything, as far as this match is concerned.”
    Black hole bullets. just saying.

  35. Warlock Lowk December 21, 2014 at 11:32 am -      #335

    “Not really the same. Batman fought through the bad memories.”

    After he got it out of him and his head. The bury it was him handling the fallout since it had still brought up memories.
    Remember tge thing doesn’t just show you bad stuff it drains you, bats resisted it and pushed it out before that.

  36. Ragnorke December 21, 2014 at 11:38 am -      #336

    “Black hole bullets. just saying.”

    Oh right… Were those actually ever posted? o.0
    I remember asking how much damage they did, and all i got was the Angel Arm moon feat.
    If it’s less than a nuke (which i think it is), Angel would be fine.

    Also, as far as Micheal possessing people goes, he isn’t going to do it.

    In the words of Sorrow, Numinous, and even Sadot (lol the irony)… These are actual Characters, not puppets, and we need to consider how THEY as characters would act in the situation. If they haven’t shown to do something, we shouldn’t assume they will.

    Although an Angel not possessing people is kind of more likely to ring the CiS bells, rather than a dude with bird wings not diving. Jus Sayin.

  37. The Terror December 21, 2014 at 11:59 am -      #337

    @Ragnorke
    static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/10/102707/2966745-2266605285-vashb.png

  38. Ragnorke December 21, 2014 at 1:19 pm -      #338

    “static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/10/102707/2966745-2266605285-vashb.png”

    Looks kinda slow doesn’t it..?
    Aside from that, is there a reason the dude it hit didn’t just instantly die?

  39. sadot06 December 21, 2014 at 1:21 pm -      #339

    “Even batman, who’s the most “normal” character here, has dodged automatic machine gun fire (while running towards it, in a tunnel, might i add), and point blank bullets.”

    A normal human dodging bullets is PIS. Period. Vash has feats that put him above the comic peak human PIS and is also not a human.

    “Although an Angel not possessing people is kind of more likely to ring the CiS bells, rather than a dude with bird wings not diving. Jus Sayin.”

    It’s a legit tactic in his arsenal and there is no reason that he wouldn’t employ it, especially since it’s bound to come up during the strategy session.

  40. Ragnorke December 21, 2014 at 1:30 pm -      #340

    “A normal human dodging bullets is PIS. Period. Vash has feats that put him above the comic peak human PIS and is also not a human.”

    Literally every feat New52 batman has ever performed is above normal human though.
    Should we just never debate the character at all?

    He held on to a flying plane engine without flying off or being sucked in.
    He constantly fought in an area for 3 days straight without eat/sleep/rest, and was still going on at peak human effeciency.
    He spent a week meditating naked on the peak of a frozen mountain, and didn’t move a single muscle the entire time.
    Hes dodged bullets more times than anyone else in this match.
    Hes agile enough to sneak up on Superman, and sneak away from Superman.
    He consistently overpowers people that can casually break down walls and what not.
    He mastered every form of martial arts, and completed every university degree, by the age of 17.

    At this point, he truly isn’t just peak human. You can’t deny that.

    For a feat to be PiS, it has to be unrealistic compared to the characters other feats… and in this case pretty much ALL of his feats are beyond peak human.
    So i don’t think its fair to call everything a character has ever done PiS… It’s simply the norm for that character.

    “It’s a legit tactic in his arsenal and there is no reason that he wouldn’t employ it,”

    HAHAHAHAHHAHAHA.
    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAA.
    HAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHHA.
    WAHAHAHAHAHAH.
    WAHAHWAHAHAHAHWAHAHAHA.
    *ahem ahem* excuse me, i find hypocrisy of this scale hilarious.

    “especially since it’s bound to come up during the strategy session.”

    Oh… You mean… Like… Divebombing? *GASP*

  41. Cassie Hack December 21, 2014 at 1:30 pm -      #341

    Batman is a peak comicbook human… there is a difference.

  42. The Terror December 21, 2014 at 1:32 pm -      #342

    “Looks kinda slow doesn’t it..?
    Aside from that, is there a reason the dude it hit didn’t just instantly die?”
    No, it looks normal to me. No, I am going to assume that he was a little beyond it’s range and the hole doesn’t last that long.

  43. Ragnorke December 21, 2014 at 1:33 pm -      #343

    “No, it looks normal to me.”

    If it’s normal bullet speed, it isn’t going to hit Angel.
    Can you prove if it’s faster by any chance?

    “No, I am going to assume that he was a little beyond it’s range and the hole doesn’t last that long.”

    You can clearly see it touching him though…

  44. The Terror December 21, 2014 at 1:42 pm -      #344

    “If it’s normal bullet speed, it isn’t going to hit Angel.
    Can you prove if it’s faster by any chance?”
    I thought you were talking about the blackholes effect. Well look at this and decide for yourself: www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?b=24849

    “You can clearly see it touching him though…”
    this is fiction where gamma radiation makes you big, green, and the strongest thing alive.

  45. Ragnorke December 21, 2014 at 1:47 pm -      #345

    “I thought you were talking about the blackholes effect. Well look at this and decide for yourself: www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?b=24849”

    You wanna tell me what it’s talking about here?
    The only thing i understood is that some satellite exploded.

    Was this the blackhole bullet?

    “this is fiction where gamma radiation makes you big, green, and the strongest thing alive.”

    If that guy survived it… Why can’t someone else?
    Which is kind of why i asked how/why that dude survived. Is there any reason given?

    If there’s no reason… Then it just clearly doesn’t destroy everything it touches…

  46. Warlock Lowk December 21, 2014 at 1:50 pm -      #346

    “A normal human dodging bullets is PIS. Period.”

    It’s fiction, highly trained individuals can get stupid in the reflexes department.
    Jack can block bullets because of training.
    Six can cut bullet in half because he’s the most dangerous man in the world.
    Back dynamite can catch a bullet with his teeth because black dynamite.
    It’s called being a badass normal.

  47. The Terror December 21, 2014 at 1:57 pm -      #347

    read the comments.

    Vash told Knives not to interfere with it plus it worked on the AA.

  48. Ragnorke December 21, 2014 at 2:01 pm -      #348

    According to the comments it was done with the Angel Arm… Which we have better feats for already. (Reaching the moon in a few seconds)

    Doesn’t change the fact that it has a charge up, and even if that charge up is a messily one second… it’s enough time for Archangel to accelerate up to around 600m/s.

  49. The Terror December 21, 2014 at 2:07 pm -      #349

    No, it is done with the gun by putting power into it. They were saying the AA is light speed.

    Same can be said for Angel. If he stands still for a second then he gets hit.

  50. sadot06 December 21, 2014 at 2:12 pm -      #350

    “Hes agile enough to sneak up on Superman, and sneak away from Superman.”

    Hahahahahaha. Yes, that’s clearly not PIS. Sneaking up on fucking Superman. Wow.

    That’s like on Supernatural when Sam and Dean kill angels, despite the fact that Angels have TK, time fuckery, teleportation, Super strength, super speed, dramatically enhanced senses, and simply revealing their true form will make your eyes disintegrate. But they do it consistently so perfectly fine.

  51. The Terror December 21, 2014 at 2:15 pm -      #351

    @Sadot
    They can also put you to sleep with a touch.

  52. Ragnorke December 21, 2014 at 2:21 pm -      #352

    “But they do it consistently so perfectly fine.”

    Iv seen every episode of supernaturals, and I don’t recall them killing any angels without help.
    They usually have prep time to draw the banishment circles. Or the trap circle.

    “Hahahahahaha. Yes, that’s clearly not PIS. Sneaking up on fucking Superman. Wow.”

    It isn’t PIS, since it’s explained with perfect sense.
    Batman has tech that allows him to totally cancel out sound and lightwaves emitting from his body.

  53. Ragnorke December 21, 2014 at 2:28 pm -      #353

    “No, it is done with the gun by putting power into it. They were saying the AA is light speed.”

    that just makes me think they’re idiots. The AA is not lightspeed.

    And you really aren’t doing a good job of explaining what the fuck is going on. Neither is the poster of that thread. And neither are the comments.

    For the love of god actually post the scans relevant to it, and do your best in a sentence or two to explain.
    I’m not doubting the calcs, i just don’t have the slightest clue what the calcs are referring to.. since.. you know… there’s no damn scans.

  54. The Terror December 21, 2014 at 2:39 pm -      #354

    Alright. Apprarently Knives was destroying all the satellites and that calc was for how fast he did it. Then later when Vash shot Knive with BH bullet he said that he is faster than anything Knives seen and he agrees. The scans for the calcs are at the top where its says 123 in orange. The last comment there had more scans to look at.

  55. Ragnorke December 21, 2014 at 2:53 pm -      #355

    “The scans for the calcs are at the top where its says 123 in orange.”

    cheers.

    Okay i have a slight issue with the way it was calculated.

    The guy is assuming Knives ran along the path of the satellites, in order to take them all down.
    This would only be true in Knives needed to be directly below each satellite in order to shoot it.

    Considering These guys have been shown accurate enough to shoot the fucking moon (which is thousands of times further away than satellites)
    I find it hard to believe he would need to travel to the point right below a satellite in order to destroy it.
    Isn’t it more likely he can shoot down approximately half the satellites from one point?
    And then shoot down the remainder from a second point Y?

    I mean, looking at the scans that were provided (forgive me, i may be missing something since my knowledge here is limited) but there is no mention that Knives would need to run the entire orbit distances.

    And considering how fast these people have previously been shown, i find it almost impossible to agree that these characters can move hundreds of thousands of times faster than they’v otherwise been shown to move in this one scenario…
    SPECIALLY when there’s an alternative explanation, which makes just as much, if not more sense.

    Now again, i could be missing something, and if i am please clarify.

  56. sadot06 December 21, 2014 at 3:24 pm -      #356

    “Iv seen every episode of supernaturals, and I don’t recall them killing any angels without help.
    They usually have prep time to draw the banishment circles. Or the trap circle.”

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=83Z-_PfUVFI
    I’VE, seen every episode of Supernatural and every encounter they’ve had with a being that has super powers should end with the Winchesters missing heads, but instead they only ever get shoved really hard.

    “Batman has tech that allows him to totally cancel out sound and lightwaves emitting from his body.”

    What convenient tech. So to be clear, you’re now you’re saying that feat has nothing to do with Batman’s physical abilities. Before you used it as an example of Batman being a superhuman.

  57. Ragnorke December 21, 2014 at 3:33 pm -      #357

    “So to be clear, you’re now you’re saying that feat has nothing to do with Batman’s physical abilities. Before you used it as an example of Batman being a superhuman.”

    Actually, i said batman has superhuman FEATS.
    Some of them rely on his physical abilities (which are above what is realistically possible), and some of them rely on enhancements from his suit.
    Many are a combination of both.

    I was actually going to write out: “maybe he’s on some juice, or it’s more likely just his suit”
    Decided not to type that, but i guess i should have to clarify my point.

    Batman isn’t a superhuman. That much is blatantly clear from the story telling.
    However, my primary point in this argument is that a Batman feat should not (and cannot) be called PiS, just because real life humans can’t perform it.

    “What convenient tech”

    Indeed. It also blocks out heat signatures.

  58. Friendlysociopath December 21, 2014 at 3:52 pm -      #358

    @Rag,
    …What side are you on? o.o

    I like to think I’m on the side of logic and reason, freelance if you will.
    I go around doing research on everyone and deciding which person/side I think should win- then I support that side in debate and will defend my points until given no choice otherwise.

    Prime example, this debate. After preliminary research I believed Team 1 should win and debated accordingly. I have since been thoroughly educated about how far Archangel outstrips most people present. I happen to *want* Team 1 to win, but I don’t *think* they would win.

    To recap for Vash:


    Here we see Vash conjure up his Angel Arm immediately and later fire it without a charging sequence.


    Here we see Vash actively trying to not use his Angel Arm, notice how the city-wide blast is merely a side effect of the shot. The gun does not “fire” until sometime around 3:04. The bullet reaches the moon more or less instantly from what we can see, call it 5 seconds if you want to be overly generous.

    238,900 miles (distance from Earth to Moon)
    divided by 5 seconds
    = 47,780 miles per second.
    That would be how fast his Angel Arm bullets go at a lower estimate.

  59. sadot06 December 21, 2014 at 4:30 pm -      #359

    “Batman isn’t a superhuman. That much is blatantly clear from the story telling.
    However, my primary point in this argument is that a Batman feat should not (and cannot) be called PiS, just because real life humans can’t perform it.”

    Even though it is PIS, I don’t think all of his superhuman feats should be dismissed. But some of them should depending on how they compare to his other speed feats. Like the infamous Darkseid omega beam feat.

  60. The Terror December 21, 2014 at 4:57 pm -      #360

    @Ragnorke
    The one time Vash hit the moon he was just trying to aim it up so he doesn’t destroy the city. It wasn’t an accuracy feat. Also when you say from one point do you mean from one small area cause Knives would then have to curve his shots to hit all the satellites on one half and do the same on the other. Sadly Knives never displayed the ability to bend the attack and at that speed it would be rapid fire.

  61. Ragnorke December 21, 2014 at 5:22 pm -      #361

    @Sadot
    “Even though it is PIS, I don’t think all of his superhuman feats should be dismissed. But some of them should depending on how they compare to his other speed feats”

    But he has dodged bullets many MANY times.
    He has dodged point blank bullets, machine gun bullets, sniper bullets… you name it.
    You said so yourself, a feat should be dismissed depending on how it compares to his other speed feats.

    Dodging bullets is perfectly fine as far as his norm goes.

    “Like the infamous Darkseid omega beam feat.”

    Ah yes, ofcourse.
    To be fair that entire universe has been retconned, and no longer stands as current canon.

  62. sadot06 December 21, 2014 at 5:30 pm -      #362

    “But he has dodged bullets many MANY times.
    He has dodged point blank bullets, machine gun bullets, sniper bullets… you name it.
    You said so yourself, a feat should be dismissed depending on how it compares to his other speed feats.”

    And does that speed carry over to hand to hand combat? I haven’t kept up with N52 other than hearing that toned down Superman is still like 20,000 times faster than light.

    But yeah Batman is just like Hei, except Hei has actual powers. He’s supposed to be peak human, but seems to avoid getting shot a lot.

  63. Ragnorke December 21, 2014 at 5:35 pm -      #363

    @Terror
    ” Also when you say from one point do you mean from one small area cause Knives would then have to curve his shots to hit all the satellites on one half and do the same on the other. ”

    Why would he need to curve his shots…? It doesn’t state the locations of the satellites in a 3 dimensional plane unfortunately. We’re only given their locations from a 2 dimensional perspective.
    And from the given 2D point of view, it seems plausible to shoot them all from 2-3 spots. Maybe 4.

    Having to run their entire orbit circumferences just sounds too unrealistic, ridiculous, inefficient, and pointless to me.
    Not to mention far too fast compared to what we’ve seen them do before.

    If there wasn’t an alternative answer, i’d no doubt accept it for what it is.
    But the entire calculation is based on one big (unlikely) assumption… And there happens to be a clear (more likely) alternative.

    Also, worth noting that the person that did the Calc admit to never having read Trigun.
    Someone just gave him the scan and told him to calculate it.
    It’s likely that the person doing the calc was simply TOLD that Knives ran the orbit circumference by whoever asked him to do the calc.
    Because as i said, nothing in the scans themselves suggests or even implies it.

  64. Ragnorke December 21, 2014 at 5:37 pm -      #364

    @Sadot
    “And does that speed carry over to hand to hand combat? ”

    It actually does. He have quite a few “impossible” maneuvers during fights.

    ” I haven’t kept up with N52 other than hearing that toned down Superman is still like 20,000 times faster than light.”

    Over a billion times FTL actually.
    Moved from one end of a galaxy to another mid convo.

    “But yeah Batman is just like Hei, except Hei has actual powers. ”

    True.
    Batman has his tech though.

  65. Cassie Hack December 21, 2014 at 5:43 pm -      #365

    DC is doing an event that shows that the former timeline is still progressing. With hints at a possible merge.

  66. Ragnorke December 21, 2014 at 5:50 pm -      #366

    @Cassie
    I recall Superman seeing the old multiverse while stuck in the black hole (at the end of Doomed).
    But… i’m guessing that isn’t the “event” that you’re talking about?
    I’m quite curios now…

  67. The Terror December 21, 2014 at 5:57 pm -      #367

    @Ragnorke
    looking at the map of the earth they had we can assume there is satellites all around the earth. Now in the picture each satellite displayed his AA before they were destroyed and as they wouldn’t all focus on the same point that would mean Knives was running around the whole world destroying them. I think that takes out all alternatives.

  68. Ragnorke December 21, 2014 at 6:17 pm -      #368

    ” Now in the picture each satellite displayed his AA before they were destroyed and as they wouldn’t all focus on the same point ”

    Wait… What?
    Wanna explain?

  69. The Terror December 21, 2014 at 6:26 pm -      #369

    static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11115/111153050/3967190-2981132158-36625.jpg
    In this picture they have a display monitor showing a pictures of Knives’ AA gotten from the destroyed satellites.

  70. Ragnorke December 21, 2014 at 7:54 pm -      #370

    “In this picture they have a display monitor showing a pictures of Knives’ AA gotten from the destroyed satellites.”

    All I see in the monitor is the orbit and location of the satellites… What does the AA have to do with anything…?

    Also, after reading up, it appears Vash has his own team called the Gung Ho Guns, who are many in number and are all super powered.
    In the Manga, Vash also took control of several plants, and forced them to serve him.
    And he built this Ark ship thing.

    So… Is there actual evidence that Knives did all this himself…?

    I mean, doesn’t it make more sense that he had people stationed around the planet?
    Instead of assuming a bullet timing character was running circles around the planet?

    If there is evidence, please post it.

  71. The Terror December 21, 2014 at 8:08 pm -      #371

    “All I see in the monitor is the orbit and location of the satellites… What does the AA have to do with anything…?”
    Where they show the locations of the satellites there is a a box next to each one showing a picture of Knives’ AA cause that is how he destroyed them.

    “So… Is there actual evidence that Knives did all this himself…?”
    The fact that only two people have AAs. Vash and Knives.

    “I mean, doesn’t it make more sense that he had people stationed around the planet?
    Instead of assuming a bullet timing character was running circles around the planet?”
    Rule 1 of fiction: don’t apply logic to fiction.

  72. The Terror December 21, 2014 at 8:12 pm -      #372

    So do you have any other reason to believe Knives isn’t some killer Santa Claus?

  73. Cassie Hack December 21, 2014 at 11:32 pm -      #373

    www.newsarama.com/22619-convergence-dc-comics-confirms-april-2015-event-a-crisis-of-champions.html

    —-

    It is tied to the ending of Doomed, as well as Future’s end.

  74. Ragnorke December 22, 2014 at 5:45 am -      #374

    “The fact that only two people have AAs. Vash and Knives.”

    In the Manga, all plants have AAs.

  75. Ciridae Hunter December 22, 2014 at 5:56 am -      #375

    In the Manga, Knives is the only independent Plant that would use his Arm against the satellites-Domina was absorbed by Knives, Chronica was working for the Earth Fleet, Tesla was long dead at that point, and Vash wouldn’t do anything with his arm like Knives does.

  76. Ragnorke December 22, 2014 at 6:27 am -      #376

    If every satellite was brought down in world War 2, do we assume Hitler ran across the planet shooting them all down?
    Or that his army of nazis did it under his orders?

  77. Ciridae Hunter December 22, 2014 at 6:32 am -      #377

    In this case, yes-Knives is the only independent both able and willing to destroy the satellites without dying; only five independents have power close to Knives, and that includes Vash and Chronica (neither of which would destroy the satellites), Tesla (deceased), and the independent that Knives already absorbed. None of the Gung Ho Guns have Angel Arms, so Knives is the only ine in this situation that is capable of performing the mass satellite destruction.

    Were there satellites in World War 2?

  78. Ragnorke December 22, 2014 at 6:41 am -      #378

    @Cirdae
    Wiki: ” Also, Knives further learns how to increase his power by merging with other plants, demonstrated on multiple occasions in the manga where he absorbs his “sisters” into his left arm, taking their power source into his. ”

    “After fusing with thousands of plants, Knives launches his “Ark”, a floating ship which travels around the Planet Gunsmoke, ”

    I dunno… Seems like Knives was pretty amped up at that point…
    Why is this being used to scale a regular Vash?

    And i STILL don’t see where it says all the satellites were brought down by the angel arm…
    The only thing the monitor shows is the location of the Satellites.

    After doing extensive reading on Knives & Vash, i haven’t come across anything that would suggest either of them being capable of running across a planet in a matter of seconds.
    Like at all.
    The extent of their speed powers i’v found is that they are fast enough to dodge bullets.
    Don’t you think something that impressive would be mentioned… Somewhere…?
    In any of their respect threads or wikis…?

    Or isn’t it more likely that you’re just misinterpreting what happened?

  79. Ragnorke December 22, 2014 at 6:47 am -      #379

    “Were there satellites in World War 2?”

    Yea, dozens.

  80. Ciridae Hunter December 22, 2014 at 6:52 am -      #380

    An amped Knives would be more than capable of destroying them all on his own-in their final confrontation, Knives had enough power to spare while Vash was using most of his remaining power to fight him; arguably, their sudden boost in speed could be similar to bodily augmentation used in fantasy anime or the hax of Batman tech.

    None of the Gung Ho Guns (can’t remember if any were even alive at that point) had anything on them capable of wiping out satellites orbiting around the planet and any tech under the Angel Arms were merely conventional firearms and a few heavy arms without the cause abilities of sub-orbital fire. If you could prove otherwise then I will gladly reconsider even with the scan.

    Cool. Fun trivia fact about World War 2 that could be useful later.

    This is my last post until I can get off work, so suplex a shark wearing a bolo tie (props if you get the reference without looking it up) while I am gone.

  81. Ragnorke December 22, 2014 at 7:08 am -      #381

    ” If you could prove otherwise then I will gladly reconsider even with the scan.”

    It’s not a matter of reconsidering the scan, but rather the context of the scan being pretty much nonexistent.
    I mean… we know satellites went down… but that’s literally ALL we know.
    It doesn’t even mention Knives name a single time.
    And the person doing the Calc admit to not knowing who the fuck did the feat, or why it happened.

    I’m sure the rest of the manga issue explains what’s going on, but i don’t have it.

    The most reasonable explanation for now is that:
    1. Knives was heavily amped (by consuming thousands of plants) as the wiki says
    2. He used his Ark? Which the wiki says circled the planet and destroyed mankinds way of civilization.
    3. He had help by his peeps. (Since i still havent found the claim that all satellites were brought down by an AA.)

  82. The Terror December 22, 2014 at 9:51 am -      #382

    I’m looking for context of that scan right now, but I want you to look at this and see if they are wrong.

    ” At least Hypersonic (able to doge AK 47s at close range and able to throw a rock to deflect bullets. Has been able to remove everyone’s bullets – estimated 30 guys, carrying around shotguns, pistols, heavy machine guns…etc. from their guns in a bar house rumble without anyone noticing in less than a minute), Hypersonic+ (Mach 48+) when serious (shot at speeds Knives couldn’t replicate, Knives didn’t dispute him)”

  83. Ciridae Hunter December 22, 2014 at 9:58 am -      #383

    How would any of his “peeps” help? I don’t even remember any of the Gung Ho Guns being…well, alive-and the ones we know about had no way of destroying satellites in orbit. The only logical conclusion is that Knives, amped by absorbing other Plants, sped along wiping them out.

    This is my break so don’t give me fifty replies and expect an answer in five minutes.

  84. The Terror December 22, 2014 at 10:08 am -      #384

    Do you any of you know where I could read comics online for free.

  85. Ciridae Hunter December 22, 2014 at 11:58 am -      #385

    Don’t know where you could read comics for free, but Google searching it should be a help; picking the right site will be up to you

  86. Friendlysociopath December 22, 2014 at 4:06 pm -      #386

    @TheTerror
    For Japanese manga there’s quite a few I know of, for comics from America I have no clue- try your local library haha.

    Of course, you can find whatever you want here:
    lmgtfy.com/

  87. Ciridae Hunter December 22, 2014 at 4:49 pm -      #387

    Library of Congress has the biggest comic collection(at least something productive is coming from Capitol Hill…*sigh*) in the world-you could go there.

    Barring a vacation to the former best place to pick up a whore, Friendlysociopath’s website is pretty nice.

  88. The Terror December 22, 2014 at 4:52 pm -      #388

    @Friendly and Ciridae
    Thanks, but I want to read comics for free without having to get up. Also I already read manga online.

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