CTF – LOST Island

CTF - LOST Island

Brought to you by sadot06

TEAM ONE:
Master Chief (Halo), Vash the Stampede, Hawkeye (Marvel), Archangel Michael (Dominion), Hei (Darker than Black)

TEAM TWO:
Boba Fett (Star Wars), Wesley Gibson, The Punisher, Archangel (X-Men), Batman (DC Comics)

Fight takes place on the Island from LOST.

Standard equipment. Additional weapons will be spread across the Island. The smoke monster is present and will attack if it encounters anyone.

Which side wins?

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388 Comments on "CTF – LOST Island"

  1. Warlock Lowk December 19, 2014 at 6:02 pm -      #201

    @Sadot
    Found out situation regarding the Angel jet scan. It’s from X-force V.3 #5.
    Angel goes berserk, kick his team’s ass they give chase to catch him but he reaches speed to the point they can barely keep up.

  2. Ragnorke December 19, 2014 at 6:04 pm -      #202

    @Sadot
    “I don’t have to provide anything. You need to provide context for the scan. This is BankGambling. That statement isn’t clear on it’s on, and is accompanied by an image that also doesn’t support your interpretation.”

    Okay buddy, look.
    I was a little annoyed at this in my earlier post, and got rather rude.
    But lets be totally honest.

    Saying: “If he goes any faster, we’ll lose him”, while tailgating someone, does not make ANY sense, UNLESS you are already at your top speed.
    That’s just how the english language works.

    If the person you’re tailgaiting is slower than you, than it doesn’t matter how much he speeds up… caus you can always maintain the distance you have without trouble.
    The ONLY logic reason for saying that, is because he’s faster.

    Your assumption is the illogical one here. Not mine. There’s nothing unclear about the scan at all.
    There is literally NO logical reason for them to say that unless Angels top speed is higher than theres.
    As far as that feat is concerned, it is blatantly clear that Archangel is faster than the jet.
    You can keep arguing otherwise, but the burden of proof is unfortunately on you now.

    “Ragnorke December 17, 2014 at 3:49 pm – #32
    If you’re going to be an asshole, at least be right.”

    The funny thing is, none of the things you quoted had me saying he’s always hypersonic, only that he is can be.
    If you actually read through the debate, you would find the MULTIPLE mentions of me agreeing his combat speed isn’t anywhere near as fast as his flight. Which is kind of common sense considering he flys with wings.

    “The cover of trees means he CAN’T see projectiles. And he has to slow down,”

    No, he doesn’t have to slow down.
    Seeing the projectiles or not doesn’t make a difference.
    The rest of the team can focus on the flag, Angel can focus on assassinations.

    “Proof? Show me him using this tactic of hiding in the sky moving at top speed and then swooping down at top speed and cutting people, at top speed.”

    Since when does a character need to have already imitated an exact strategy before it being applied in a match?
    That’s flat out bullshit.
    If it’s possible, if there’s no reason not to, and if it’s efficient… Then it can be done in a debate.
    The argument here would be for you to show me why he CANNOT do that.

    The one thing i’ll agree with, is that he would need to slow down as he gets closer to the surface. As in, he wont be Hypersonic.
    Still fast enough to cut people in half without them being fast enough to avoid it.

    The trees is a good point, but large chunks of forest can be casually brought down by alot of the people in this match.
    It can even be purposely set up by the team to help Angel get some easy kills.
    Also If yash ever uses his AA, all those trees are going down, leaving team 1 sitting ducks.

    “Burden of proof fallacy. You’re not even sourcing your arguments. You have zero science to support how fast Archangel is.”

    It has already been posted and agreed by everyone.
    You aren’t accepting it, even though it’s clear what it implies.
    If the characters were speaking logical english, it means Archangel is faster than the X-Jet.
    If the characters were speaking illogical english, then it can be argued that Archangel isn’t actually faster.
    Guess which one takes the shiny medal?
    Burden of proof isn’t on me anymore.

    “I missed those scans. Where are they?”

    Around. I’ll just post em again soon.
    One has him tanking a full on explosion from Holocaust.
    The other has him instantly blowing up War Machine by touching him.

    “Also Masterchief, Hawkeye, and Hei can hurt him. Probably Michael too since his weapons are forged in Heaven.”

    I don’t see how any of them can hurt him. If they can, it certainly hasn’t been posted.
    And how does Michaels weapons being forged in Heaven effect anything?
    Feats son.

    “And all his combat feats point to him topping out at bullet timer in reaction at best. Though I don’t recall him actually dodging bullets. Just beams.”

    His combat feats are slow, i don’t disagree.
    But combat movement isn’t the same as reaction speed. One depends on your muscles motions, the other depends on the neurons in your head.

    Multiple simultaneous beams. From sentinels. That pretty much all bullet timing mutants have failed to dodge at some point or the other. Implying they are as fast if not many times faster than bullets.

    “But it’s pretty damn significant based on how fast I’ve read Quicksilver is.”

    He isn’t as fast as your probably thinking.
    I mean, he is fast enough that out maneuvering him is impressive, but it isn’t unrealistic AT ALL.
    It actually makes alot of sense if you look at the context of how the feat was done.

    Angel was being chased, while flying, and he basically flew head first straight into a wall…. and when QS thought he had him (while they were both accelerating at top speeds towards the wall), Angel “somersaulted”, changed directions, and flew up… while QS hit the wall.
    It doesn’t mean Angel is QS at all, it just means his reaction time was fast enough to keep up with QS, and perform a trick that QS would have never expected from anyone (since he isnt used to fighting other speedsters)

    So yea, it’s an impressive feat. But not ridiculous enough to be called PiS by any stretch of the imagination.

    “I’d say not since most of his encounters that have been shown are him facing non hypersonic things”

    Because his combat speed is shit.
    And because most of his opponents are too durable or hax to be instakilled by his wings.

    Honestly though, from a totally unbiased perspective, Angel IS the strongest none-omega mutants.
    He’s extremely well balanced in most regards.
    In Archangel mode, he could go as far as taking on omega-mutants on a good day.

    “we don’t even know if that version of Quicksilver was hypersonic.
    Quicksilver couldn’t even control himself. And we don’t even know how fast that incarnation was.”

    By We… You mean You… Right?
    Caus We (as in X-men readers) do know how fast he was.
    I’ll get scans later.

    ” He’s seeing fast moving objects, he’s also seeing very small objects”

    Seeing bullet speed objects is perfectly normal for none-superhuman eyes.
    Seeing bullet sized objects is perfectly normal for none-superhuman eyes.

    ” Rag is arguing that Archangel will attempt to solo team 1 by flying straight for them when the match starts, leaving his much slower teammates behind, since their bases are on opposite ends of the island.”

    1. I conceded on the soloing thing.
    2. Angel can pick up up to like 400 pounds and continue flying normally. Should help his teammates out quite a bit.

  3. Ragnorke December 19, 2014 at 6:09 pm -      #203

    @Friendly
    “However, he doesn’t appear to fight at mach speed”

    I’m fully aware he can’t fight that fast.
    But you need to keep in mind the Hawkeye fight was normal Angel, not Arch.
    Hawkeye has absolutely no way of hurting Archangel.

    Also, Angel wasn’t trying to kill Hawkeye. He was calm for most of the fight.
    Hawkeye on the other hand was out for blood.

    @Lowk
    Cheers on finding the Jet chase issue.

    I believe someone asked earlier about how Angel would deal with Hawkeyes sonic arrows.
    I suppose that scan proves it.

  4. Friendlysociopath December 19, 2014 at 6:20 pm -      #204

    By the way, can we all just agree that both teams go towards the enemy flag together? If this turns into another “camping ultimate defense” thread like that Star Wars vs 40K, Halo, and Star Trek scenario we won’t be getting anywhere fast.

    Actually wait a sec, how long does it take everyone that is limited to travel on foot to even get to each base?

  5. Ciridae Hunter December 19, 2014 at 6:33 pm -      #205

    Of all of the non-flying combatants, Hei and Batman are the fastest, though Hei is perhaps more experienced at traveling through jungles due to his stint in the South American incident-Punisher and Hawkeye are close seconds, Wesley…well, he can run…I guess.

  6. Warlock Lowk December 19, 2014 at 6:44 pm -      #206

    “Of all of the non-flying combatants, Hei and Batman are the fastest, though Hei is perhaps more experienced at traveling through jungles due to his stint in the South American incident”

    Bats is perfectly capable of doing his arkham combo ala grappling hook catapult to fling himself forward and glide a bit. I’ll look to see if I can find any forest/jungle training.

  7. Ciridae Hunter December 19, 2014 at 6:47 pm -      #207

    Consider the smoke monster as well-it will affect Team Two a bit more than Team One and here is why:

    Batman can’t get laid because every girlfriend he has ever had (practically) has died because he isn’t man enough to kill his villains the first time (unlike Tony Stark, who says “Yea? Well, fuck you.”).
    I don’t know what baggage Punisher has so…something, I guess.
    Wesley gets off killing so he’s the only one fully immune.
    Archangel is the most pious piece of the pie (tee-hee) and one who always talks about missions and repenting for shit, so he will probably cave in first.
    In general, Mandalorians aren’t prone to fits of conscience so he’s fine.

    Vash and Hei have pretty much resolved their baggage in their respective universes so it might not be a factor (at least for Hei since even with his human side he’s pretty much a Contractor through and through)
    Hawkeye has loads of baggage but he is also known to be resistant to mind fuckery since Vision is quoted saying “I suspect that your mind is not as tactically rigid as the others. That your actions are dictated by instinct”
    Michael is…I don’t know about him.
    Chief would probably just shoot it…

  8. sadot06 December 19, 2014 at 7:02 pm -      #208

    “Okay buddy, look.
    I was a little annoyed at this in my earlier post, and got rather rude.
    But lets be totally honest.

    Saying: “If he goes any faster, we’ll lose him”, while tailgating someone, does not make ANY sense, UNLESS you are already at your top speed.
    That’s just how the english language works.

    If the person you’re tailgaiting is slower than you, than it doesn’t matter how much he speeds up… caus you can always maintain the distance you have without trouble.
    The ONLY logic reason for saying that, is because he’s faster.

    Your assumption is the illogical one here. Not mine. There’s nothing unclear about the scan at all.
    There is literally NO logical reason for them to say that unless Angels top speed is higher than theres.
    As far as that feat is concerned, it is blatantly clear that Archangel is faster than the jet.
    You can keep arguing otherwise, but the burden of proof is unfortunately on you now.”

    So no proof? K.

    “Warlock Lowk December 19, 2014 at 6:02 pm – #201

    @Sadot
    Found out situation regarding the Angel jet scan. It’s from X-force V.3 #5.
    Angel goes berserk, kick his team’s ass they give chase to catch him but he reaches speed to the point they can barely keep up.”

    Thank you. That’s what I was looking for.

    “No, he doesn’t have to slow down.
    Seeing the projectiles or not doesn’t make a difference.”

    Can’t defend what you can’t see, so yeah, it totally matters.

    “Since when does a character need to have already imitated an exact strategy before it being applied in a match?
    That’s flat out bullshit.
    If it’s possible, if there’s no reason not to, and if it’s efficient… Then it can be done in a debate.
    The argument here would be for you to show me why he CANNOT do that.”


    Here on BankGambling, a person remains in character as long as it doesn’t prevent them from completing the match objective. So if you propose a strategy that they’ve never used before that goes against their character, it doesn’t fly.

    “I don’t see how any of them can hurt him. If they can, it certainly hasn’t been posted.
    And how does Michaels weapons being forged in Heaven effect anything?
    Feats son.”

    Hei can electrocute or transmute him to death. I don’t know Master Chief as well but I know Halo has powerful weapons. Michael’s skin can’t be pierced by human blades or bullets, but angel blades can do it. They are made of material not found on Earth. And Hawkeye has adamanteum and other trick arrows.

    “His combat feats are slow, i don’t disagree.
    But combat movement isn’t the same as reaction speed. One depends on your muscles motions, the other depends on the neurons in your head.”

    Combat feats mean how fast you can move while fighting. If your body can’t match your reflexes then it doesn’t matter.

    “By We… You mean You… Right?
    Caus We (as in X-men readers) do know how fast he was.
    I’ll get scans later.”

    By we, I mean the thread because you introduced the feat without context. I know current Quicksilver is hypersonic, I don’t know if he’s hypersonic in that scan.

    “Seeing bullet speed objects is perfectly normal for none-superhuman eyes.”

    But you ignored the whole hitting multiple bullets fired at the same time with rocks with enough accuracy to prevent them from hitting people.

  9. Warlock Lowk December 19, 2014 at 7:42 pm -      #209

    “Batman can’t get laid because every girlfriend he has ever had (practically) has died because he isn’t man enough to kill his villains the first time (unlike Tony Stark, who says “Yea? Well, fuck you.”).”

    How exactly does this smoke monster work becuase everything from the normal to the supernatural has tried to screw with batman’s head, soul, and past, and etc and normally result in making him more determine. One of the new n52 villian’s power involved a little mix of that and cripple the league the first time. Bats fought through it.
    To be fair dude tends to leave injuries that some of tgem should even be recovering from. It’s looking like some of his villian just refuse to die. There has been at least 2 villian wars, gang rivalries, and city wide disasters. Arkham sank after being taken over by a cult engaged in some hellish lovecraftian stuff and guess what. Most of those bastard are still kicking. Only two majors have died that I know of, Two face and Joker. Guess which came back somehow and is now more horrifying.
    ===
    “They are made of material not found on Earth.”

    Bats carries an nth metal batarang that can harm supernatural beings. Its also not man made or of earth. Would that do?
    ===
    “I know current Quicksilver is hypersonic, I don’t know if he’s hypersonic in that scan.”

    What post was the scan in?
    There has been a few a points where he has been augmented, he might have even faster then current.

  10. Friendlysociopath December 19, 2014 at 8:30 pm -      #210

    What post was the scan in?

    Number 64.

    Since the Smoke Monster is present I’m assuming this scenario takes before it becomes mortal and stuck in the body of John Locke?

  11. Neon Lord December 19, 2014 at 10:17 pm -      #211

    “So no proof? K.”

    It is quite obvious what the scan means. Archangel is faster than the jet at top speed. What kind of person chases someone at less than max speed anyway?

    “Here on BankGambling, a person remains in character as long as it doesn’t prevent them from completing the match objective. So if you propose a strategy that they’ve never used before that goes against their character, it doesn’t fly.”

    That’s like saying all comic characters can’t go to the toilet because we’ve never seem them do it (at least, I hope so). Being able to fly and a melee-oriented character and not being able to divebomb is ridiculous.

  12. The Terror December 19, 2014 at 10:44 pm -      #212

    “Bats carries an nth metal batarang that can harm supernatural beings. Its also not man made or of earth. Would that do?”
    Nope, Empyrean steal or a higher ranking Angel is the only things known to be actually able to kill him. For the smoke monster: lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/The_Man_in_Black#Abilities

  13. Warlock Lowk December 19, 2014 at 11:05 pm -      #213

    So Angel flew through robots and walls alike
    i.imgur.com/rwbCDi4.jpg
    i.imgur.com/qTZM4Qm.jpg
    I think rag already posted the godzilla clone thing.
    I don’t think the base is going to do much to impede him. That plus the durability of his wings, he’s essentially a bullet. One of which is only opposed by the long range and speed of Vash. But his weapon seems to require a bit of time to even fire.
    Angel might not solo but he seems out of everyone on either side to have the easiest and quickest means of getting the flag and back then anyone else.
    ===
    “Number 64.”

    Wow, that is old. I don’t even think I can find out where that’s from. Still Quicksilver at lowest was speed of sound so Angel has dodged some that fast at the least.

  14. Friendlysociopath December 19, 2014 at 11:21 pm -      #214

    Eh, guess we might as well throw the Master Chief feats in there. Condensed version.

    Fall of Reach feats
    Page 58- Spartans have 3x reaction speed of normal humans. Unarmored
    Page 64- John sees everything moving slower than it should be via heightened senses. Unarmored
    Page 67- John beats the living crap out of 4 ODSTs in hand-to-hand combat. Unarmored
    Page 72- John kicks an armored trainer 30 feet. Unarmored
    Page 90- John fights through being shot in the gut
    Page 115- MJOLNIR armor doubles strength and increases reaction time by a factor of 5. So 15x human reaction time.
    Page 117- John 117 tries out his new armor: he jumps over a 3 meter wall, punches through concrete, and cements his ability to dodge live rounds.
    Page 256- John sees ODSTs enter a room and attack him, he describes them as moving in slow motion.
    Page 258- John’s shields tank 3 fully automatic weapons firing at him
    Page 263- John deflects a missile with his bare hand. Cortana assisted for timing.
    Page 264- John’s suit tanks a blast that leaves a 2 meter deep hole.

    The Flood feats
    Page 50- Lifeboat crashes and everyone dies but MC
    Page 70- MC is able to throw a plasma grenade with pinpoint accuracy onto an Elite’s helmet 30 meters away while turning from a sprint in a different direction.
    Page 110- MC slams an Elite into the deck, killing it instantly
    Page 143- MC tanks a hunter shot without shields, Hunter shots melt ODST troops
    Page 266- MC one-shots 2 Elites through their shields and armor with his fists.
    Page 282- MC tanks a blow to the head that would’ve killed any armored human

  15. Warlock Lowk December 19, 2014 at 11:33 pm -      #215

    “Here on BankGambling, a person remains in character as long as it doesn’t prevent them from completing the match objective. So if you propose a strategy that they’ve never used before that goes against their character, it doesn’t fly.”

    That’s like saying all comic characters can’t go to the toilet because we’ve never seem them do it (at least, I hope so). Being able to fly and a melee-oriented character and not being able to divebomb is ridiculous.”

    Just putting it out there, He has snuck swoop people before. Both to save as I shown in the sonicboom post.
    And to kill
    i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd485/infamousColeMacgrath/Marvel/XForce05-019_zps3d978f0a.jpg
    Still, that aside agreeing with Neon on that point. Especially here, even without that scan, Dudes a winged creature whose main mean of attack are shooting feathers or cutting with his wing. He can only do the second by getting close which mean either flying or dropping at the target.
    ===
    “Nope, Empyrean steal or a higher ranking Angel is the only things known to be actually able to kill him.”

    Bit of an NLF, what if superman punched them so hard the planet exploded or they were shredded at the molecular level or lower. Also probably don’t want to advertise that. Just ask anyone that has to argue for or against Ganondorf about the ruling regarding immortal.
    Anyway what about elemental capability. Nth metal works well against things supernatural, if it can’t kill him it should at least be able to harm him. Same for the smoke monster, iirc Hawkman was able to fight a shadow monster.

  16. The Terror December 19, 2014 at 11:53 pm -      #216

    “Bit of an NLF, what if superman punched them so hard the planet exploded or they were shredded at the molecular level or lower”
    To be honest any heavenly weapon or being (stronger than him) should work just fine. Nth metal would work on Smoke Monster fine.

  17. Friendlysociopath December 19, 2014 at 11:56 pm -      #217

    So where are we at now that Archangel has been proven to just fly through walls and machines and swoop-kill enemies?
    Vash does have the firepower and skill feats to hit him and hurt with his Angel Arm.

    But his weapon seems to require a bit of time to even fire.

    He can pull it own and fire in less than 10 seconds in his fight against Knives. Just in case you’re going off of the moon video, which is quite a bit of him trying not to fire it.

    If Archangel slows down to fight (which he’d have to do in order to find and grab the flag) then most of Team 1 should be able to at least fight him.

    Nth metal would work on Smoke Monster fine.

    I thought the original Smoke Monster would live so long as the Heart of the Island was left alone?

  18. The Terror December 20, 2014 at 12:01 am -      #218

    “I thought the original Smoke Monster would live so long as the Heart of the Island was left alone?”
    True the wiki said it.

  19. Warlock Lowk December 20, 2014 at 12:35 am -      #219

    So yeah the more I find of Warren well, he’s pretty useful in this scenario. Not only is he fast and has highly durable wing but he can also do stuff like this.
    i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd485/infamousColeMacgrath/Marvel/All-New20X-Men20008-009_zpsd82a01a1.jpg
    Anyone near him could be blasted and/or Blinded. That could be really useful at providing him cover when he gets close to getting the flag, as well as destroying any traps or whatever they happen to set up.

    Also Speedblitzing to save his past-self
    i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd485/infamousColeMacgrath/Marvel/All-New20X-Men20008-005_zpsf0a70b05.jpg
    i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd485/infamousColeMacgrath/Marvel/All-New20X-Men20008-006_zps0b27bad7.jpg

    Punching through mech suit
    i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd485/infamousColeMacgrath/Marvel/All-New20X-Men20008-007_zpsc16daf53.jpg
    Again, so shouldn’t have trouble with the base.

  20. The Terror December 20, 2014 at 1:02 am -      #220

    @Lowk
    Good thing Michael can take care of him. Michael can’t be harmed by non heavenly weapons ( I got this from a wiki ) which are the only things Angel has. Even if Michael can’t put him down for the count he can keep him busy long enough for Vash to hit him with a black hole bullet.

  21. Friendlysociopath December 20, 2014 at 1:04 am -      #221

    Again, so shouldn’t have trouble with the base.

    Wellllll… I’ll be honest I kind of think claims of Archangel solo-ing weren’t incredibly far off after all. Eh, we’ll continue under adversity for a bit longer.
    He’d still have to actually look for the flag in the building. So at some point he’d have to stop or at least slow down.

    In combat:
    www.youtube.com/watch?v=83ArRHTblUI
    When Vash first gets his Angel Arm he brings the gun out borderline immediately and fires it without a charging sequence. The blast levels the city they’re in. So the charging sequence would appear to simply be anime filler.

  22. sadot06 December 20, 2014 at 1:47 am -      #222

    “That’s like saying all comic characters can’t go to the toilet because we’ve never seem them do it (at least, I hope so). Being able to fly and a melee-oriented character and not being able to divebomb is ridiculous.”

    No, it’s like saying Avatar Aang will immediately try to choke his opponent to death with air bending. Be smarter, you’re embarrassing yourself.

    “Just putting it out there, He has snuck swoop people before. Both to save as I shown in the sonicboom post.
    And to kill
    i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd485/infamousColeMacgrath/Marvel/XForce05-019_zps3d978f0a.jpg
    Still, that aside agreeing with Neon on that point. Especially here, even without that scan, Dudes a winged creature whose main mean of attack are shooting feathers or cutting with his wing. He can only do the second by getting close which mean either flying or dropping at the target.”

    The context of my argument was Ragnorke claiming that Archangel would solo by flying straight to the base when the match started, hiding above the clouds, then dive bombing the base and killing everybody one by one without anybody being able to react. There are several flaws with that theory that I’m sure you can pick up on.

  23. TheSorrow December 20, 2014 at 2:26 am -      #223

    It’s as sadot06 says, there really isn’t much of a point in speculating possible strategies fictional characters could use without having it spiral into arguments consisting of pure imagination. It’s an intellectual dead end. Hard facts are the only definitive way we make any headway in debates such as this.

  24. Numinous One December 20, 2014 at 4:24 am -      #224

    “Hard facts are the only definitive way we make any headway in debates such as this.”

    I can agree with that, we debate the characters, not puppets. If they suffer from terrible CIS, we still need to incorporate that to a reasonable extent.
    Though this current issue was resolved readily enough once scans were provided.

  25. Ragnorke December 20, 2014 at 6:20 am -      #225

    @Sadot
    “So no proof? K.”

    It was proof. That was accepted by everyone here. Besides you.
    The scan itself implied something as crystal clear as “This dude is stronger than me.”
    YOU thought it was out of context, despite it being a straight forward claim. So you had to prove that. Not me.

    “Can’t defend what you can’t see, so yeah, it totally matters.”

    He flies too fast to get hit by anyone here.
    Iv already posted scans proving he can dodge and turn while staying at his top speed.

    “Hei can electrocute or transmute him to death.”

    Does his electricity work as normal electricity?
    As for the transmuting, no he can’t. Unless you can prove it.

    “Michael’s skin can’t be pierced by human blades or bullets, but angel blades can do it.”

    No limit fallacy.
    What’s his best durability feat?

    “And Hawkeye has adamanteum and other trick arrows.”

    And you know for sure Adamantium works on Celestial bio-tech?
    Despite Wolverines several failed attempts at damaging Angels wings?
    And despite Wolverines failure at being able to scratch apocolypse?

    “Combat feats mean how fast you can move while fighting. If your body can’t match your reflexes then it doesn’t matter.”

    Good job at completely misunderstanding my argument.
    I KNOW Angels combat movement can’t keep up with his reflex speed.
    But guess what? His wings can.
    That’s why he can dodge and maneuver things while flying that he would never be able to do while standing.

    “No, it’s like saying Avatar Aang will immediately try to choke his opponent to death with air bending. ”

    Aang isn’t a bloodthirsty killing machine.
    Immediately choking someone without a second thought IS actually against his CiS.
    Archangel is ruthless in every sense of the word. If there’s an efficient way to kill someone, he’ll take it.

    “The context of my argument was Ragnorke claiming that Archangel would solo by flying straight to the base when the match started”

    I conceded that he wouldn’t win on his own.
    So the context of your argument is outdated.
    -

  26. Ragnorke December 20, 2014 at 6:23 am -      #226

    @The Sorrow
    “It’s as sadot06 says, there really isn’t much of a point in speculating possible strategies fictional characters could use without having it spiral into arguments consisting of pure imagination. It’s an intellectual dead end.”

    So why do we assume most comic characters will start off matches in FTL speed blitzing?
    Because it’s efficient, and because we have proof that they are capable of doing it.
    it isn’t an unrealistic strategy, so why not?

    “I can agree with that, we debate the characters, not puppets. If they suffer from terrible CIS, we still need to incorporate that to a reasonable extent.”

    He’s a melee combat dude with bird wings.
    What possible CiS would he ever have that would stop him from dive bombing?

  27. Ragnorke December 20, 2014 at 6:25 am -      #227

    “Good thing Michael can take care of him.”

    …Even in Micheal couldn’t be killed, how can he do any more than tickle Archangel?

    On that note, how much energy has Micheal tanked?

    His body may be immune to non-angelic physical means, but that doesn’t make him immune to energy.

  28. sadot06 December 20, 2014 at 6:55 am -      #228

    “It was proof. That was accepted by everyone here. Besides you.
    The scan itself implied something as crystal clear as “This dude is stronger than me.”
    YOU thought it was out of context, despite it being a straight forward claim. So you had to prove that. Not me.”

    I don’t think you understand what context means. The fact that I don’t know why they are pursuing him, why they aren’t shooting at him, why he isn’t attacking, and why he doesn’t even act like he’s being followed, means context is missing. That isn’t debatable.

    “He flies too fast to get hit by anyone here.
    Iv already posted scans proving he can dodge and turn while staying at his top speed.”

    You posted 1 scan of a very old issue of the X-Men. It doesn’t tell me what current Archangel can do. But the only way for him to be impossible to hit for anybody here would be if he’s flying at hypersonic all the time above the battlefield. You’ve only posted scans of him moving in a straight line, not at full speed, and not moving nearly as fast as he was in the X-Jet scan. Even if he could, by flying hypersonic he’d just been overshooting the island and thus useless. Unless you’re saying he can immediately accelerate to hypersonic, which will require hard proof.

    “Does his electricity work as normal electricity?”

    Yes, he’s even shut down the power of an entire building.

    “As for the transmuting, no he can’t. Unless you can prove it.”

    If it was already shown that he can transmute matter at a quantum level, the burden of proof is on you.


    “Aang isn’t a bloodthirsty killing machine.
    Immediately choking someone without a second thought IS actually against his CiS.
    Archangel is ruthless in every sense of the word. If there’s an efficient way to kill someone, he’ll take it.”

    My dispute wasn’t at all based on him not being viscous enough. It was about a prideful fighter hiding in the clouds the entire fight. And also the fact that you were completely ignoring the map when concocting that theory.

    “So the context of your argument is outdated.”

    They were responding to outdated context, so my reply was actually relevant. Yours isn’t.

    “No limit fallacy.
    What’s his best durability feat?”

    It isn’t a no limits fallacy. In his universe bullets don’t pierce his flesh. And after he was stabbed with an angel blade and taking to the hospital, it was noted that this was the only chance they’d get to exam his physiology since their instruments can’t breech his skin. I didn’t say he’s immune to everything except Angel weapons. If there is appropriate E/C his skin can obviously be pierced.

    His best durability feat was being unscathed by the explosion of a power plant.

    “And you know for sure Adamantium works on Celestial bio-tech?
    Despite Wolverines several failed attempts at damaging Angels wings?
    And despite Wolverines failure at being able to scratch apocolypse?”

    www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/wolverine-vs-archangel-409392/

    Yes. Until I see feats that put Archangel on par with Apocolypse’s invulnerability and actually resisting an adamanteum blow someplace other than his wings.

  29. Ragnorke December 20, 2014 at 7:47 am -      #229

    “I don’t think you understand what context means. The fact that I don’t know why they are pursuing him, why they aren’t shooting at him, why he isn’t attacking, and why he doesn’t even act like he’s being followed, means context is missing. That isn’t debatable.”

    Since when does every feat need to be posted with perfect context of what’s going on?
    If the feat is vague, then fine, it’s understandable. But the feat isn’t vague here.
    As everyone has told you already, there is NO OTHER REASON to be making that claim. At all.
    If i see a scan of Ironman saying “Thor punches harder than i do”, why the fuck do we need more context?
    Okay, we don’t know the EXACT situation that was going on… But why does it fucking matter?
    The claim is the same. That claim only has one logical meaning.

    You’re the only person that has a problem with it. That should ring a few bells.

    “You posted 1 scan of a very old issue of the X-Men. It doesn’t tell me what current Archangel can do.”

    It’s the same character.
    Since when are older feats not accepted?
    Prove to me current archangel went through some event that made him weaker than before.
    Otherwise it’s accepted.

    “You’ve only posted scans of him moving in a straight line, not at full speed, and not moving nearly as fast as he was in the X-Jet scan. ”

    Except for the fact that he SAYS he is at full speed.
    And that he is still able to maneuver WHILE at full speed.

    ” Even if he could, by flying hypersonic he’d just been overshooting the island and thus useless.”

    He can turn?
    He’d probably lose a bit of speed, sure, but turning doesn’t take you from hypersonic to under sonic under any believable scenario.

    “Yes, he’s even shut down the power of an entire building.”

    An average building really doesn’t have that much power…

    ” If it was already shown that he can transmute matter at a quantum level, the burden of proof is on you.”

    I’v already been over this with the others, and everyone conceded.
    Lack of Experience, Knowledge, or Power Limitation are all valid arguments.
    Whereas you have no valid argument.
    If he hasn’t shown the ability to do it on a living target, then he likely doesn’t have the skill necessary to pull it off.
    There’s a reason he uses his electricity on living things instead of… you know… instantly transmuting everyone & everything.

    “My dispute wasn’t at all based on him not being viscous enough. It was about a prideful fighter hiding in the clouds the entire fight”

    When did i say he would hide the entire time?
    My argument was for him to fly high to build up speed without being disturbed, from where he can start diving and picking up easy kills.
    Not to hide through an entire fight.

    ” And also the fact that you were completely ignoring the map when concocting that theory.”

    Trees aren’t stopping him for shit.

    “It isn’t a no limits fallacy. In his universe bullets don’t pierce his flesh.”

    Theoretically, we don’t know how immune he would be to other worldy materials.
    We know that no standard EARTH materials harm him.
    But that doesn’t mean ONLY angel weapons can harm him.

    “His best durability feat was being unscathed by the explosion of a power plant.”

    Can you post it?

    “www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/wolverine-vs-archangel-409392/”

    Why did you bother posting this?
    The only thing it showed was Archangel kicking Wolverines ass.
    And everyone in the comments agreed Archangel wins… So why post it?

    Is it because Wolverine was cutting the Pinions? Which are extremely thin and weak in comparison to the density of his wings?

    If wolverine with his all strength and force wasn’t able to fully pierce Angels wings with his Claws, then neither can Hawkeye with an arrow.

    “Yes. Until I see feats that put Archangel on par with Apocolypse’s invulnerability and actually resisting an adamanteum blow someplace other than his wings.”

    He was unscratched by a nuke? That puts him close enough as far as i’m concerned.
    And the exact SAME material that covers his wings covers the rest of his body in current incarnation too.

  30. The Terror December 20, 2014 at 8:40 am -      #230

    “No limit fallacy.
    What’s his best durability feat?”
    That is what show says. He’s like Ghost Rider when it comes to weaknesses which is any heavenly weapon.

  31. The Terror December 20, 2014 at 8:44 am -      #231

    Is this manga Vash cause he can fly?
    lounge.moviecodec.com/vs-forum/respect-vash-the-stampede-94257/

  32. Ragnorke December 20, 2014 at 8:56 am -      #232

    “That is what show says. He’s like Ghost Rider when it comes to weaknesses which is any heavenly weapon.”

    You realize ghost rider has been physically beaten to a pulp alot of times right?

    Having only 1 weakness doesn’t mean you’re immune to everything else.

  33. Ragnorke December 20, 2014 at 8:59 am -      #233

    “http://lounge.moviecodec.com/vs-forum/respect-vash-the-stampede-94257/”

    There’s a fight there between Vash and some dude, where they’re both shooting each other.

    Funny thing is, even Batman is faster than that.

    Batman dodged every bullet from an automatic-machine, in a tunnel, while running TOWARDS the machine gun.

  34. Ragnorke December 20, 2014 at 9:26 am -      #234

    So, here’s proof that Adamantium can’t cut Angels wings.

    static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/123441/2423684-archangel_vs_x_force.jpg

    static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/123883/2424210-2424208-archangel.jpg

    static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/123883/2424212-2424211-archangel.jpg

    static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/123883/2424213-2424208-archangel.jpg

    These scans show Archangel single handedly beating a team of X-Force, and a team of X-Men.
    And kicking Logans ass, twice.
    Night Crawler was among the x-men, which says quite a bit about Archangels combat speed.
    It isn’t nearly as poor as previously thought.

    The third scan specifically is the important one.
    Since Wolverines claws make clear contact with the Wings, and it makes only a screeching sound, but no scratch.

  35. The Terror December 20, 2014 at 9:27 am -      #235

    “You realize ghost rider has been physically beaten to a pulp alot of times right?

    Having only 1 weakness doesn’t mean you’re immune to everything else.”

    I’ve seen it said alot that GR regenerates from any physical attacks unless from a heavenly weapon. Thats why I compared him to Michael.

    He has a 2nd which is any Angel a higher rank then him.

    If Character X is weak to rocks, but is shown to be immune to everything else then it isn’t a NLF but how the character simply works. Under the rules Team 2 would be given a heavenly weapon if they didn’t have a weapon with EC, but Sadot said standard equipment which means they don’t get one.

  36. Ragnorke December 20, 2014 at 9:29 am -      #236

    Also… Umm… Archangel owned Avatar of the Phoenix Jean Grey.

    static.comicvine.com/uploads/ignore_jpg_scale_super/14/149056/4089329-archangel+tanks+phoenix+blast+1.png

    static.comicvine.com/uploads/ignore_jpg_scale_super/14/149056/4089332-archangel+tanks+phoenix+blast+2.png

    Looks like he has telepathic Energy.

  37. Ragnorke December 20, 2014 at 9:31 am -      #237

    “If Character X is weak to rocks, but is shown to be immune to everything else then it isn’t a NLF but how the character simply works”

    But Micheal hasn’t been shown to be immune to everything else.
    Team one has tons of outworldy and unique materials/weapons far more powerful than anything Micheal has never encountered.

    Why should we assume he has immunity to all of them?

  38. The Terror December 20, 2014 at 9:31 am -      #238

    @Ragnorke
    When was this as that is most likely temporary?

  39. Ragnorke December 20, 2014 at 9:38 am -      #239

    His mind is shielded from Xavier level telepaths too.
    Infact, the dude died trying to enter Archangels mind.

    i.imgur.com/CHsk3qL.jpg

    I don’t know the context of this scan, but Angel (regular) is beating the shit out of Johnny Storm.

    25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lkqd1tLnBZ1qhpx4lo1_500.jpg

    Another example of Angel dive bombing, and grabbing bullseye faster than he can react.

    i5.photobucket.com/albums/y160/CATMANEXE/blzi/angel/DA-UX_-_Exodus_001_007.jpg

    He drops bulleye in the middle of a Forest, caus he’s a good sport, and wants to enjoy hunting/killing him.
    Even in the dense trees, Archangel still has the upper hand.
    Bullseye has proven to be equal if not better than Hawkeye.

    images.comicbookresources.com/previews/marvelcomics/utopia/part6/sm/DRKAUNCXF001_int-10.jpg

    “When was this as that is most likely temporary?”

    The telepathic blast?
    It wasn’t temporary. That’s the normal Archangel.
    He wasn’t under any special amps or anything during that time.

    I wasn’t kidding when i said he’s one of the strongest mutants.
    Everyone in this thread just spent a lot of time underestimating him.

  40. The Terror December 20, 2014 at 9:45 am -      #240

    “But Micheal hasn’t been shown to be immune to everything else.”
    But the show says it as well that Michael is can only be harmed by Empyrean steel and Angels a higher rank then him. EC would make this any holy weapon or holy beings stronger than him. The exception was when he was knocked unconscious by electricity.

    “Team one has tons of outworldy and unique materials/weapons far more powerful than anything Micheal has never encountered.”

    Do you mean team 2 who only has Angel ( I know Batman has nth metal, but I don’t know if that is standard and Boba has futuristic weapons ) who has outworldly or unique weapons.

    “Why should we assume he has immunity to all of them?”
    He has immunity until you prove they have something with EC that can hurt him.

  41. Ragnorke December 20, 2014 at 9:46 am -      #241

    So, we now have proof that Angel has dive bombed more than once.

    We have proof he’s faster than Hypersonic.

    We have proof his speed trumps Hawkeyes reaction time.

    We have proof he can casually cut through steel and rock without it interrupting his flight.

    We have proof he can create massive energy blasts.
    Which blew up War Machine,

    We have proof his bio-tech can’t be pierced by adamantium.

    We have proof he can survive nuke level energy.

    We have proof a scratch from his toxins can paralyze even Wolverine.
    And those toxins can be shot out rather rapidly: static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/5/53420/1234148-xff_03_archangel.jpg

    We have proof Archangels reaction time and combat speed is high enough to take on groups of X-men simultaneously, including Iceman/Sunfire/Wolverine/Nightcrawler.

    And he beat Phoenix Jean Grey.

    I’m not going to go back to saying he solo stomps, caus team one does technically have ways to deal with him (or… well… One way)
    But with a tiny bit of help or distraction from his team, he has this in the bag.

  42. The Terror December 20, 2014 at 9:56 am -      #242

    Did you read the respect thread I posted?

  43. Ragnorke December 20, 2014 at 10:08 am -      #243

    @The Terror
    Yes, and nothing there was impressive.

    As i said earlier, his speed seems to be inferior to Batman.

    And no, Vash can’t fly. His wings aren’t literal wings.
    It’s just a term for an automatic shield.
    Or that’s what the page you posted says anyways.

  44. Ragnorke December 20, 2014 at 10:22 am -      #244

    “But the show says it as well that Michael is can only be harmed by Empyrean steel and Angels a higher rank then him”

    So you’re basically saying that Superman can’t hurt him?
    Someone that can punch as hard as a dense star, push galaxies, blow up solar systems by sneezing, and move millions of times faster than light?
    Yet some pussy ass Angel that’s a higher “rank” can hurt him?

    Yea, No, Bullshit. That’s a NLF.

  45. The Terror December 20, 2014 at 10:25 am -      #245

    “As i said earlier, his speed seems to be inferior to Batman”
    Batman is at least hypersonic! I really need to get some comics to read. Sarcasm

    Actually they also said he can fly using them and showed a picture of it.

  46. The Terror December 20, 2014 at 10:28 am -      #246

    Superman can beat on him all he wants, but without the right weapons he can’t kill him.

  47. Ragnorke December 20, 2014 at 10:42 am -      #247

    “Batman is at least hypersonic! I really need to get some comics to read. Sarcasm”

    Vash is NOT hypersonic. At all.
    Unless of course you can prove it. With actual Calculations.
    The respect thread claims he is, but has no proof whatsoever.

    “Superman can beat on him all he wants, but without the right weapons he can’t kill him.”

    Can Micheal survive without a body?
    Because Superman would rip him up at an atomic level, or beyond.
    And unless Micheal has the feats to survive that, he isn’t surviving it. Regardless of what the fiction he originates from says regarding his immunity.

    This is the Ganondorf issue all over again.
    Claiming a character can only be killed by a specific thing… Yet that character doesn’t have anywhere near the feats he needs to survive what he’s going up against.

    He can only be killed by an angelic weapon as far as HIS universe is concerned.
    Because HIS universe doesn’t have anything else strong enough to hurt him.
    He isn’t IN HIS universe here, and there’s plenty of things that do not exist in these universes, which are stronger than any of the things we’ve seen in his universe.

    Saying he can survive any of those things, which are proven to be stronger than anything he can dream of, because of the “immunity” he has to standard materials in his universe, is a NLF.

  48. The Terror December 20, 2014 at 10:58 am -      #248

    “Can Micheal survive without a body?
    Because Superman would rip him up at an atomic level, or beyond.”
    Yes, cause his body on earth is only a manifestation as he doesn’t need to possess a host body. This also brings up the fact he can possess his opponents and steal the flag that way.

    “Vash is NOT hypersonic. At all.
    Unless of course you can prove it. With actual Calculations.
    The respect thread claims he is, but has no proof whatsoever.”
    He can still fly. :)

  49. Ragnorke December 20, 2014 at 11:11 am -      #249

    “Yes, cause his body on earth is only a manifestation as he doesn’t need to possess a host body”

    Oh, nice. Didn’t know this.
    How long does it take him to create a new body?
    And didn’t you say he got knocked out by electricity?

    “This also brings up the fact he can possess his opponents and steal the flag that way.”

    Most people here have mental resistance feats which would stop that from happening.
    He would probably die if he tried entering Warrens head.

    “He can still fly. ”

    Looks more like he’s gliding in that picture… But anyhow, it doesn’t make a big difference.

  50. sadot06 December 20, 2014 at 11:13 am -      #250

    “Since when does every feat need to be posted with perfect context of what’s going on?
    If the feat is vague, then fine, it’s understandable. But the feat isn’t vague here.
    As everyone has told you already, there is NO OTHER REASON to be making that claim. At all.
    If i see a scan of Ironman saying “Thor punches harder than i do”, why the fuck do we need more context?
    Okay, we don’t know the EXACT situation that was going on… But why does it fucking matter?
    The claim is the same. That claim only has one logical meaning.

    You’re the only person that has a problem with it. That should ring a few bells.”

    That is a terrible example. We know from past issues that Thor is stronger than Ironman. There was no precedent for Archangel being hypersonic before that scan.

    “It’s the same character.
    Since when are older feats not accepted?
    Prove to me current archangel went through some event that made him weaker than before.
    Otherwise it’s accepted.”

    You must not be very familiar with comics. It’s the same reason why when we debate Superman we don’t assume that he can sneeze away a solar system. DIFFERENT FUCKING WRITERS. Wow, how long have you been here? Characters change all the time in comics because old writers die or new writers pick up a comic and do their own versions. I’ve only read 1 X-men comic series and I don’t remember even seeing Archangel in it, but it ended with Wolverine getting atomized by Magneto. But obviously when we debate Wolverine, he’s not fucking dead, and we have to distinguish between classic and new Magneto. The burden of proof is on you, I don’t need to source your vague or ancient scans. Bring me more scans from current Archangel.

    “Except for the fact that he SAYS he is at full speed.
    And that he is still able to maneuver WHILE at full speed.”

    I recall Xavier commenting that he was almost moving at full speed, and he was still moving in a straight line in that scan.

    “He can turn?
    He’d probably lose a bit of speed, sure, but turning doesn’t take you from hypersonic to under sonic under any believable scenario.”

    Do you not understand physics? He’s not a fucking UFO. You’re saying he’s going to be moving 1700 m/s while making abrupt turns and somehow still being able to engage the enemy? Proof or drop it.

    “An average building really doesn’t have that much power…”

    It wasn’t an average building. It was a luxury hotel.

    “I’v already been over this with the others, and everyone conceded.
    Lack of Experience, Knowledge, or Power Limitation are all valid arguments.
    Whereas you have no valid argument.
    If he hasn’t shown the ability to do it on a living target, then he likely doesn’t have the skill necessary to pull it off.
    There’s a reason he uses his electricity on living things instead of… you know… instantly transmuting everyone & everything.”

    Nobody conceded that point because your argument is terrible. Other things obviously came up. Why would he need to transmute a human target? That’s completely illogical. They don’t have special durability.

    “When did i say he would hide the entire time?
    My argument was for him to fly high to build up speed without being disturbed, from where he can start diving and picking up easy kills.
    Not to hide through an entire fight.”

    You’ve literally described hiding. When I deconstructed your scenario, you say he would just be hiding in the clouds so nobody could spot him.

    “Trees aren’t stopping him for shit.”

    They are if he can’t spot his targets because he’s flying at Mach whatever over an island covered in them.

    “Theoretically, we don’t know how immune he would be to other worldy materials.
    We know that no standard EARTH materials harm him.
    But that doesn’t mean ONLY angel weapons can harm him.”

    You’ve merely repeated what I said, unless you dont’ know what E/C means.

    “Can you post it?”

    It’s episode 1, I’ll have to link to the full episode since there are no clips:gorillavid.in/ixgklh4icyh3
    52:00 mark.

    “Why did you bother posting this?
    The only thing it showed was Archangel kicking Wolverines ass.
    And everyone in the comments agreed Archangel wins… So why post it?

    Is it because Wolverine was cutting the Pinions? Which are extremely thin and weak in comparison to the density of his wings?

    If wolverine with his all strength and force wasn’t able to fully pierce Angels wings with his Claws, then neither can Hawkeye with an arrow.”

    Wow, didn’t know you were a liar. Wolverine was handicapped in that fight and they stalemated. Also 5 people were for Wolverine and 5 for Archangel. I posted it to give you a hint. You need scans. Now address the rest of the points I brought up.

    “He was unscratched by a nuke? That puts him close enough as far as i’m concerned.
    And the exact SAME material that covers his wings covers the rest of his body in current incarnation too.”

    Still waiting on scans of his durability outside of his wings. And the actual nuke feat.

  51. sadot06 December 20, 2014 at 11:15 am -      #251

    “Most people here have mental resistance feats which would stop that from happening.
    He would probably die if he tried entering Warrens head.”

    There is a big difference between showing resilience in the face of telepathic attacks and resisting having your body and soul taken over.

  52. The Terror December 20, 2014 at 11:30 am -      #252

    “Oh, nice. Didn’t know this.
    How long does it take him to create a new body?
    And didn’t you say he got knocked out by electricity?”
    Idk. It may be instantaneous to a few minutes.
    I’m going to guess electricity effects him like normal.

    “Most people here have mental resistance feats which would stop that from happening.”
    Just take over Killer, Boba, or Punisher.

  53. Ragnorke December 20, 2014 at 11:32 am -      #253

    @Sadot
    “That is a terrible example. We know from past issues that Thor is stronger than Ironman. There was no precedent for Archangel being hypersonic before that scan.”

    He flew alongside a normal jet too, which was also posted here.
    He caught up to (and beat the shit out of) johnny storm, who’s above sonic.
    There’s TONS of precedent for Archangel being significantly above Super Sonic at the very least. This feat was his best feat though, and it was extremely clear on what it implied.

    “I recall Xavier commenting that he was almost moving at full speed, and he was still moving in a straight line in that scan.”

    1. I don’t think Xavier would be lying.
    2. “Almost” full speed? okay, lets assume it was 70% of full speed. Still fast enough to dodge everything here.
    3. How on earth do you know he was moving in a straight line?
    Literally the ENTIRE point of that training was so Angel could learn to maneuver and dodge things while flying.

    “Do you not understand physics? He’s not a fucking UFO. You’re saying he’s going to be moving 1700 m/s while making abrupt turns and somehow still being able to engage the enemy? Proof or drop it.”

    I can bet you a few million dollars that my knowledge of physics trumps yours. Unless you’re knowledge surpasses a third year mechanical engineering student at Oxford
    Ever seen a jet turn? They can turn at extremely high speeds, and take complete U-turns.
    Sure they slow down a bit, but they can remain above sonic, and then continue accelerating and reaching the speeds they were at in seconds.

    Why on earth do i need to prove common sense and the laws of physics?

    “It wasn’t an average building. It was a luxury hotel.”

    Ill calc it later.
    It wont compete with a nuke, i can assure you that.

    “Nobody conceded that point because your argument is terrible. Other things obviously came up. Why would he need to transmute a human target? That’s completely illogical. They don’t have special durability.”

    Iv seen him lose fights before, iv seen him get his ass kicked, and iv seen him in situations where transmuting the enemy would be what any semi-sane person would do.
    But he doesn’t. Likely because he can’t.
    The atomic structure of a human is significantly more complicated than a block of wood or steel.
    If he has never shown/mentioned/hinted/implied his ability to use it on a living target, in all his episodes, then he fucking can’t do it.

    Aren’t you the person wanking the importance of direct proof?
    Get me fucking proof of him transmuting a living target. Or drop it like everyone else.

    “You’ve literally described hiding. When I deconstructed your scenario, you say he would just be hiding in the clouds so nobody could spot him.”

    Scouting. Not hiding.
    He has nothing to hide from.

    ” I posted it to give you a hint. You need scans. Now address the rest of the points I brought up.”

    Already posted. Adamantium doesn’t cut Celestial Bio-Tech.

    “Still waiting on scans of his durability outside of his wings. And the actual nuke feat.”

    It’s already posted somewhere.

    “There is a big difference between showing resilience in the face of telepathic attacks and resisting having your body and soul taken over.”

    What about showing resilience against a multiversal cosmic embodiment capable of altering reality as it pleases?

  54. The Terror December 20, 2014 at 11:36 am -      #254

    “What about showing resilience against a multiversal cosmic embodiment capable of altering reality as it pleases?”
    Actually what I got from the scan was that the PF didn’t harm Angel cause they had the same goal (he told Jean the PF betrayed her.)

  55. Ragnorke December 20, 2014 at 11:37 am -      #255

    @Sadot
    “You must not be very familiar with comics”

    I loled.

    “It’s the same reason why when we debate Superman we don’t assume that he can sneeze away a solar system.”

    Because crises on infinite earth retconned the old multiverse and all its feats.
    And FlashPoint then retconned the multiverse and all its feats again.

    ” DIFFERENT FUCKING WRITERS.”

    No, it’s because they’re completely different characters from different universes.

    “Wow, how long have you been here? Characters change all the time in comics because old writers die or new writers pick up a comic and do their own versions.”

    That’s not how incarnations work. At all.
    You’re making yourself sound stupid.

    “but it ended with Wolverine getting atomized by Magneto. But obviously when we debate Wolverine, he’s not fucking dead,”

    There’s a reason for that, You realize that right?
    It’s not like he just died and then showed up again without the plot explaining it.
    Wolverine fought off the angel of death.

    ” and we have to distinguish between classic and new Magneto.”

    Umm… No… No we don’t.
    Unless Magneto got a proven nerf since the time of the old feats, he’s still perfectly capable.

    “I don’t need to source your vague or ancient scans. Bring me more scans from current Archangel.”

    You’re officially an idiot.

  56. Ragnorke December 20, 2014 at 11:46 am -      #256

    Okay are we REALLY debating that old Marvel scans are no longer Viable?
    Are you fucking kidding me?

    And did you REALLY try and use pre-crises superman as an example of that?
    Marvel has never gone through a retcon. Ever. Every single character, every single comic, in Marvel history, is all part of the same continuity. (unless it takes place in an alternate reality)

    I do NOT need to prove ANYTHING in order to justify old comics still being Viable.
    YOU need to prove whether or not the character got nerfed since then or not.

    I’m not even going to reply to whatever bullshit you say next to try and validate this.
    Hopefully someone else can talk some sense into you.

  57. The Terror December 20, 2014 at 12:00 pm -      #257

    @Ragnorke
    I think the situation is that when using old feats in Marvel depending on the characters involved and the situation they may not be useable. For example the QS feat you posted. In that QS might be slower than current QS so if we assume that current is hypersonic and the old one is supersonic we can’t say Angel is hypersonic using that feat. That is the problem with feats from old comics. The characters are constantly changing and sometimes these old comics become invalid when used like how I wouldn’t be able to use that same one to make QS look slower than he actually is.

  58. Ragnorke December 20, 2014 at 1:20 pm -      #258

    “I think the situation is that when using old feats in Marvel depending on the characters involved and the situation they may not be useable.”

    Characters usually get MORE feats over time, making them STRONGER. Not weaker.
    If a character got weaker, you need to prove it.

    ” For example the QS feat you posted. In that QS might be slower than current QS ”

    Exactly.
    But if old QS has a feat, then it applies to current QS too.
    Old Angel feats apply to current angel, because he’s the SAME FUCKING CHARACTER.

    ” The characters are constantly changing and sometimes these old comics become invalid”

    What the fuck?
    No. Old comics become invalid if:
    1. The franchise goes through a retcon.
    2. That specific character goes through a retcon.
    3. That specific comic is labelled as non-canon.
    4. That character was amped at the time of the feat.
    5. That specific character gets weaker due to a proven plot reason.

    If none of the 5 scenarios above took place, then every old comic is still 100000% usable.
    Don’t give me that bullshit.

  59. Ragnorke December 20, 2014 at 1:21 pm -      #259

    As for Micheal possessing people. I want to see proof that he can posses people not 100% human.

  60. TheSorrow December 20, 2014 at 1:46 pm -      #260

    So why do we assume most comic characters will start off matches in FTL speed blitzing?

    I never say that, in fact I always steer away from simplistic arguments like those, unless proven otherwise.

    Because it’s efficient, and because we have proof that they are capable of doing it.

    Capable yes, but is it something they have been known to do? That’s what you need to be looking for. No offense, but it’s lazy debating tactic if you can’t take the time to research it.

    it isn’t an unrealistic strategy, so why not?

    Yeah, and I am sure there is a thousand other ways they could fight realistically, but that’s not the point. We have to take their character traits into account as well.

  61. The Terror December 20, 2014 at 1:56 pm -      #261

    @Ragnorke
    “As for Micheal possessing people. I want to see proof that he can posses people not 100% human.”
    If your about Angel then my answer is his dna is mostly human. Mutant powers are caused by the X-gene and are only a sub species of human and that’s why they are called homo (human) superior. But there is no reason to possess him as all his allies are human. He can have them take the flag and, if they’re caught, commit suicide.

  62. Friendlysociopath December 20, 2014 at 2:01 pm -      #262

    Yeah, I concede the loss for Team 1. Archangel might not solo but he’s damn close.

    Hei’s contribution to this fight is largely theoretical with his quantum manipulation power. He did shut down all power and backup generators for a military complex though for terms of how much electricity he can dish out.
    Master Chief’s weapons will hardly hurt anyone on Team 2 since in comics peak humans can dodge machine-gun fire.
    Hawkeye’s arrows would be handy but he can’t hit Archangel.
    Archangel Michael is largely outclassed by everyone due to feats.
    Vash has the firepower and speed to hit Archangel if he slows down, but there’s no conceivable reason for Archangel to do that via scans.
    The only way Team 1 is going to win is if Vash completely disregards his CIS and blows up most of the island in an attempt to kill the en route Team 2.
    Or Michael might have a solid line for possession but we’ll see how that one pans out.

  63. Ragnorke December 20, 2014 at 2:15 pm -      #263

    “If your about Angel then my answer is his dna is mostly human.”

    1. He has mutant gene, which steers his DNA away from human by a slight about.
    2. He has Celestial DNA, who are inter-dimensional alien beings.
    3. He has the Life Seed fused with his body, which is also an ancient inter-dimensional alien object.

    I see no reason why Micheal can possess someone/something who’s DNA is that mutated/altered.
    You need to prove to me he’s capable of it.

  64. Ragnorke December 20, 2014 at 2:20 pm -      #264

    @Friendly
    “Hawkeye’s arrows would be handy but he can’t hit Archangel.”

    Tbh even if Hawkeye could hit Archangel, and i’m willing to agree that he MIGHT get a good shot if Archangel is busy…
    The arguments were that he would use an Adamantium or Sonic arrow.

    Archangels armor is proven as not having been so much as scratched against an enraged Wolverines Adamantium.
    So i don’t see why an arrow would be any different.

    Angel is also proven as being unaffected by sonic booms.
    Since… Well… his flight is rather loud.

    Which brings me to another good point, Angel breaking the sound barrier created a rather large boom, which hurt everyone around him.
    And he was able to accelerate to it in a few seconds, since he didn’t cover much distance at all.

    “The only way Team 1 is going to win is if Vash completely disregards his CIS and blows up most of the island in an attempt to kill the en route Team 2.”

    The thing is, Team 2 has more ways to deal with Vash than Team 1 has to deal with ArchAngel.
    Also, in a 1vs1 fight between ArchAngel & Vash, i think it’s quite clear who the victor would be.

    Also, i really wanna see the possession feat in action…

  65. Friendlysociopath December 20, 2014 at 2:28 pm -      #265

    The thing is, Team 2 has more ways to deal with Vash than Team 1 has to deal with ArchAngel.

    Never disagreed with that, although Vash could conceivably solo Team 2 minus Angel.

    Also, in a 1vs1 fight between ArchAngel & Vash, i think it’s quite clear who the victor would be.

    Now I will disagree on that, Vash can bring his Angel Arm and fire it out almost instantly. The charge time is filler, as seen when he destroys July. His reaction time and aim should be good enough to tag Archangel.

    Angel is also proven as being unaffected by sonic booms.

    If he breaks the sound barrier- the bang is always behind him isn’t it?

  66. TheSorrow December 20, 2014 at 2:33 pm -      #266

    If he breaks the sound barrier- the bang is always behind him isn’t it?

    He still needs to be able to resist the intense strain of breaking through the sound barrier though.

  67. The Terror December 20, 2014 at 2:33 pm -      #267

    @Ragnorke
    I don’t think they showed possession in action.

    I want a match with Falcon and Cannonball in a tag team match. Any suggestions?

  68. Ragnorke December 20, 2014 at 2:47 pm -      #268

    “Now I will disagree on that, Vash can bring his Angel Arm and fire it out almost instantly. The charge time is filler, as seen when he destroys July. His reaction time and aim should be good enough to tag Archangel”

    Archangel has superior movement & reaction times.
    Considering he took on Enraged Wolverine, Nightcrawler, Iceman, Sunfire… and i think 1 more… all at once and won.

    3 of those Mutants are casual bullet timers.
    Whereas Vash has struggled fighting 1 dude with a gun.

    And considering how fast Angel can accelerate up to sonic (it’s actually faster than i thought), he could literally just fly/slice straight through Vash the second he sees him.

    “If he breaks the sound barrier- the bang is always behind him isn’t it?”

    The bang originates from the tip of his head (or the tip of his wings… whichever is further out). Why would it start at his feet?

  69. Ragnorke December 20, 2014 at 2:51 pm -      #269

    “I don’t think they showed possession in action.”

    Like… Never?
    Not even for other characters?

    How do you know how long it takes then?
    And what if there’s some ritual or whatever they need to do first?

    “I want a match with Falcon and Cannonball in a tag team match. Any suggestions?”

    Oo that could be interesting.
    Some nintendo characters maybe?

  70. Friendlysociopath December 20, 2014 at 3:04 pm -      #270

    And what if there’s some ritual or whatever they need to do first?

    Assuming it’s drawing from the bible, possession is literally *ding* “in we go” and *ding* “Okay I’m out” for both demons and angels.

    I want a match with Falcon and Cannonball in a tag team match. Any suggestions?

    Just so you’re aware, Captain Falcon is not incredibly strong.
    www.youtube.com/watch?v=wa5OkdP3-r8
    The popular Falcon Punch clip shows a station that is exploding *before* he punches, he is not the one who does that.
    He’s still got some decent speed feats and a few combat feats though.

  71. Ragnorke December 20, 2014 at 3:07 pm -      #271

    Another thing i wanted to mention about Vash vs Angel, is Angel has energy beams too.
    And it seemed to have no delay. At all.

    Oh, and paralyzing darts… which he can fire a dozen of at a time.

  72. The Terror December 20, 2014 at 3:11 pm -      #272

    “How do you know how long it takes then?
    And what if there’s some ritual or whatever they need to do first?”
    Oh that was me putting out a reasonable amount of time as a guess. The possession however is forceful so most likely not a ritual.

    “Oo that could be interesting.
    Some nintendo characters maybe?”
    Maybe Pit and… you decide.

  73. The Terror December 20, 2014 at 3:15 pm -      #273

    @Friendly
    not that Captain Falcon. This one: oyster.ignimgs.com/wordpress/stg.ign.com/2014/07/captain-falcon.png

  74. Numinous One December 20, 2014 at 3:23 pm -      #274

    “Angel is also proven as being unaffected by sonic booms.
    Since… Well… his flight is rather loud.”

    Nitpick.
    A person/jet moving above the speed of sound will hear none of the effects of their passing because the sound travels slower than they do.
    Sonic arrows may well affect him.

    EDIT:
    “He still needs to be able to resist the intense strain of breaking through the sound barrier though.”

    He has better feats than that for durability, but since he is hypersonic, a fair bit faster than mach 1, the sound won’t reach him, no matter how close the origin.

  75. Ragnorke December 20, 2014 at 3:24 pm -      #275

    “Assuming it’s drawing from the bible, possession is literally *ding* “in we go” and *ding* “Okay I’m out” for both demons and angels.”

    Eh, i don’t really consider the bible as a reliable source for feats…

    Specially considering how picky Sadot was being with feats, i feel obliged to ask for a bit more xD

    @Terror
    Yea, umm… it turns out Canonball is pretty Bonkers.
    Like, WAY out of Falcons league.

    static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/8/86733/1852630-hellbound_1.jpg

    static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/8/86733/1852634-hellbound_2.jpg

    static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/8/86733/1852637-hellbound_3.jpg

    static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/6/65990/4268116-cannonball21.jpg

  76. The Terror December 20, 2014 at 3:28 pm -      #276

    Then who should I team him up with?

  77. Ragnorke December 20, 2014 at 3:28 pm -      #277

    @Numinous
    “A person/jet moving above the speed of sound will hear none of the effects of their passing because the sound travels slower than they do.
    Sonic arrows may well affect him.”

    Not entirely true.
    The first point of your body that breaks the sound barrier would be the tip of your head.
    From there, your ears and rest of your body would pass the waves.
    It would only be an instant, since Sound can’t keep up with you, but you would still feel/hear the initial boom.

    Also the person he was holding was screaming in agony from it… While he was perfectly fine.
    He specifically said “cover your ears”

  78. Ragnorke December 20, 2014 at 3:30 pm -      #278

    @Terror
    “Then who should I team him up with?”

    Wait, do you want a partner for Falcon or Cannonball?
    Cannonball is kinda… Up there… like way above street level.
    Falcon is closer to Captain America.

  79. The Terror December 20, 2014 at 3:38 pm -      #279

    @Ragnorke
    Cannonball

  80. Ragnorke December 20, 2014 at 3:40 pm -      #280

    On the note of the Sound Barrier

    Jets NEVER hear it, because their engines are behind them.

    Angels wings are quite large, and are often ahead of his face.

    Now, i honestly can’t say for sure the exact point at which it would originate, since wings motion is a lot more complicated than a jet engine

    But… Since the comic implied the person he was holding could hear it… i think it’s safe to assume he could hear it too

  81. Numinous One December 20, 2014 at 3:45 pm -      #281

    “It would only be an instant, since Sound can’t keep up with you, but you would still feel/hear the initial boom.”

    Somewhat I suppose, I’m really just going off pilots not hearing or feeling any disturbances when they break the sound barrier.
    A perfectly smooth and quiet flight after that point, must be nice.
    Though I suppose this depends on how fast Angel can accelerate, top speed is all well and good, but getting there is important. If it’s a gradual build up he might feel it, if it’s straight up hypersonic, mach 5 for a minimum, he’ll be long gone before he can notice the effects.

    “Also the person he was holding was screaming in agony from it… While he was perfectly fine.
    He specifically said “cover your ears””

    Oh, was there a scan? I’m not really keeping up with this thread, it’s more light reading while I try to wake up.

    “He’s a melee combat dude with bird wings.
    What possible CiS would he ever have that would stop him from dive bombing?”

    So I only just noticed this.
    My statement was more of a broad statement, right under where you quoted me I said that this issue was resolved with scans being provided.

  82. Ragnorke December 20, 2014 at 3:48 pm -      #282

    “Though I suppose this depends on how fast Angel can accelerate, top speed is all well and good, but getting there is important”

    Well, a sonic boom is only created when you reach Super Sonic…
    And he barely covered any distance when the sonic boom started.
    That means he can reach Super Sonic speed without covering much distance, which obviously means high acceleration.

    That’s honestly much faster acceleration than i would have imagined for him.

  83. Ragnorke December 20, 2014 at 3:56 pm -      #283

    Ok, it looks like Angel was kinda screaming too.
    s1222.photobucket.com/user/infamousColeMacgrath/media/Marvel/saN1_zps2480cf63.jpg.html

    But it also appears like he’s using his innate energy to accelerate rather than his wings.

  84. Numinous One December 20, 2014 at 3:56 pm -      #284

    “Jets NEVER hear it, because their engines are behind them.”

    I might just be tired, but I’ve no idea how that works. As you said the bang originates at the tip, so the pilot would still bodily pass through it.
    Anyway, time to start the day so I’ll leave it here for now.

    “Now, i honestly can’t say for sure the exact point at which it would originate, since wings motion is a lot more complicated than a jet engine”

    Which made me think, how much force are his wings exerting to propell him at such high speeds? I’m assuming he flies the same as any other winged creature anyway.

    EDIT
    “But it also appears like he’s using his innate energy to accelerate rather than his wings”

    Ah, ignore the above then.

  85. Ragnorke December 20, 2014 at 4:05 pm -      #285

    “Which made me think, how much force are his wings exerting to propell him at such high speeds? I’m assuming he flies the same as any other winged creature anyway.”

    s1222.photobucket.com/user/infamousColeMacgrath/media/Marvel/saN1_zps2480cf63.jpg.html

    There’s no way he’s further than a kilometer from the shore.
    So:
    /
    x = (u + v)t / 2
    1,000m = (0 + 1,000m/s)t/2
    2,000m = 1,000m/s T
    ttime = 2 seconds
    /
    x = at^2 + ut
    1,000 = a4 + 0
    acceleration = 250 m/s^2
    /
    F = ma
    F = 700kg (Sharks are heavy yo) x 250 m/s^2
    Force = 175,000N

  86. Ragnorke December 20, 2014 at 4:10 pm -      #286

    Oh, funnily enough, if you look at Angels path:

    s1222.photobucket.com/user/infamousColeMacgrath/media/Marvel/saN1_zps2480cf63.jpg.html

    He basically swooped in from up high, picked the chick up, and reached super sonic shortly after.

    This either means:
    1. He can accelerate EXTREMELY fast.
    2. He can dive bomb EXTREMELY fast.
    It’s likely a combination of the two.

    Sadot was arguing Angel wouldn’t be capable of either of those 2 things.
    I guess this should shut him up.

  87. sadot06 December 20, 2014 at 11:13 pm -      #287

    “This either means:
    1. He can accelerate EXTREMELY fast.
    2. He can dive bomb EXTREMELY fast.
    It’s likely a combination of the two.

    Sadot was arguing Angel wouldn’t be capable of either of those 2 things.
    I guess this should shut him up.”

    I’ve been busy all day, but you’re clearly full of shit. You were arguing that he would hide in the clouds and then dive bomb everyone on the base at hypersonic speed the entire time. Which you’ve yet to prove.

    As for possession, it’s extremely common in Dominion. All the lower angels possess humans because they don’t have physical forms like the higher angels do. They call these possessed humans 8 balls. The physiology of the target is irrelevant, they are taking over the soul, thus controlling the body. Michael’s brother Gabriel is also shown possessing higher angels. Anybody on team 2 that has a soul can be possessed.

  88. Warlock Lowk December 20, 2014 at 11:27 pm -      #288

    “I’ve been busy all day, but you’re clearly full of shit. You were arguing that he would hide in the clouds and then dive bomb everyone on the base at hypersonic speed the entire time. Which you’ve yet to prove.”

    To be fair he has shown to stealth kill via highspeeds divebomb.
    Besides that it’s not like he can’t get idea from any of his more tactical teammates.
    ===
    ” Michael’s brother Gabriel is also shown possessing higher angels. Anybody on team 2 that has a soul can be possessed.”

    Bats has resisted soul fuckery before would that help?

  89. Friendlysociopath December 20, 2014 at 11:37 pm -      #289

    To be fair he has shown to stealth kill via highspeeds divebomb.
    Besides that it’s not like he can’t get idea from any of his more tactical teammates.


    Yeah but even in the scans, he’s clearly not going anywhere near mach speed in the diving bits. The idea that he can only go hypersonic when going in a relatively straight line appears to hold some credit.
    Also, the shark-person appears to be screaming in general, he/she isn’t screaming in response to the sonic wave.

    Bats has resisted soul fuckery before would that help?

    Please elaborate on the how and why.

  90. Warlock Lowk December 21, 2014 at 5:16 am -      #290

    “Please elaborate on the how and why.”

    Graves controlled these spiritual parasites. They reach into your soul, cripple you, make you experience the misery, and feed on your life. (Bottom left corner.)
    i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd485/infamousColeMacgrath/DC/supernaturalstuff/JusticeLeague-12-Zone-011_zpsef658a6c.jpg
    Resulting in something like this
    i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd485/infamousColeMacgrath/DC/supernaturalstuff/JusticeLeague-10-Zone-014_zps1a4f8a8b.jpg
    Bats was able to resist it and fight it off
    i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd485/infamousColeMacgrath/DC/supernaturalstuff/JusticeLeague-11-Zone-001_zps64886c73.jpg
    ===
    As for why, He did travel the world learning from monks and secret organization, some of which have ties in the spiritual and mystical.

  91. Ragnorke December 21, 2014 at 5:34 am -      #291

    “I’ve been busy all day, but you’re clearly full of shit. ”

    Shall I find the amount of times you said Angel can’t divrbomb at high speeds?

    “You were arguing that he would hide in the clouds and then dive bomb everyone on the base at hypersonic speed the entire time. Which you’ve yet to prove.”

    This was my argument around 200 posts ago… Yea…
    Talk about being outdated.
    He doesn’t need to dive bomb anyone with his new durability feats.

    1. He is proven to be capable of flying above clouds.
    2. He is proven to be hypersonic without needing to dive (which means his dives are undeniably faster)
    3. He has proven to divrbomb, around 3 times now.
    4. His acceleration is proven to be around 250m/s^2
    5. A single scratch from his wings is going to create enough force to completely decapitate the area it touches, assuming he had about half a second to accelerate his flight from a stop.
    6. His armor is harder than adamantium.

    What’s there left to prove besides you being butthurt?

  92. Ragnorke December 21, 2014 at 5:53 am -      #292

    “Yeah but even in the scans, he’s clearly not going anywhere near mach speed in the diving bits. ”

    Because he needed to PICK UP his targets and fly back up without hurting them. Like a vertical U turn.
    And even then, he was going fast enough that:
    1. Bullseye wasn’t able to react or move
    2. Mystique was mid swing, and warren had already picked up shark lady and moved several meters away.

    Both bullseye and mystique are “casual” bullet timers to say the least. And have speed feats far superior to Vash.

    Edit: BOTH of the above feats were done by REGULAR angel.
    Arch IS faster.

    Now, imagine if Archangel was out for blood, and divebombed straight down.
    The sheer force of his metallic wings landing would cut people into bits.
    Not only would he be many times faster than a bullet, but his wings span is literally a few hundred times wider than a bullet.
    Dodging it is out of the question for anyone in team one

    “The idea that he can only go hypersonic when going in a relatively straight line appears to hold some credit.”

    But he can accelerate at a rate close to 250m/s^2.
    That’s crazy fast acceleration.
    In 2 seconds he’ll be at 500m/s.
    In 3 seconds he’ll be at 750…

    And that’s without the extra acceleration from diving.
    Andddd that was regular Angel.
    I hope you get the idea.

    “Also, the shark-person appears to be screaming in general, he/she isn’t screaming in response to the sonic wave.”

    Angel does specifically tell her to hold her ears.
    And angel does seem to be screaming too.
    It’s clearly implied by the comic that they can both hear it.
    But it doesn’t stop him from doing what he’s doing.

  93. sadot06 December 21, 2014 at 6:41 am -      #293

    “Please elaborate on the how and why.”

    Graves controlled these spiritual parasites. They reach into your soul, cripple you, make you experience the misery, and feed on your life. (Bottom left corner.)
    i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd485/infamousColeMacgrath/DC/supernaturalstuff/JusticeLeague-12-Zone-011_zpsef658a6c.jpg
    Resulting in something like this
    i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd485/infamousColeMacgrath/DC/supernaturalstuff/JusticeLeague-10-Zone-014_zps1a4f8a8b.jpg
    Bats was able to resist it and fight it off
    i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd485/infamousColeMacgrath/DC/supernaturalstuff/JusticeLeague-11-Zone-001_zps64886c73.jpg
    ===
    As for why, He did travel the world learning from monks and secret organization, some of which have ties in the spiritual and mystical.”

    Not really the same. Batman fought through the bad memories. Lower angels just hickjack your soul and take it for a ride. Higher angels have the option of controlling you remotely. But Bats likely wouldn’t be the target anyway.

  94. sadot06 December 21, 2014 at 6:50 am -      #294

    “Shall I find the amount of times you said Angel can’t divrbomb at high speeds?

    “You were arguing that he would hide in the clouds and then dive bomb everyone on the base at hypersonic speed the entire time. Which you’ve yet to prove.”

    This was my argument around 200 posts ago… Yea…
    Talk about being outdated.
    He doesn’t need to dive bomb anyone with his new durability feats.

    1. He is proven to be capable of flying above clouds.
    2. He is proven to be hypersonic without needing to dive (which means his dives are undeniably faster)
    3. He has proven to divrbomb, around 3 times now.
    4. His acceleration is proven to be around 250m/s^2
    5. A single scratch from his wings is going to create enough force to completely decapitate the area it touches, assuming he had about half a second to accelerate his flight from a stop.
    6. His armor is harder than adamantium.

    What’s there left to prove besides you being butthurt?”

    At best you’ve proven he can quickly accelerate to the speed of sound, moving in a straight line with open space and eventually reach hypersonic, going in a straight line, in open space. This is a dense forest environment and team 1 isn’t just going to be standing around playing with their cocks. Archangel has no fucking idea where the base even is. He needs to fly around and if he doesn’t spot a member of team 1 fucking waving at him, he’s not going to be dive bombing shit. Most of these guys are covert assassin types and Hawkeye has incredible vision. He’ll spot Archangel miles away and will then share all the intel he has on him with his team. Also unless Archangel can resist soul possession, Michael takes his bio whatever fuck meat suit for a ride and slaughters team 2.

  95. Ragnorke December 21, 2014 at 7:13 am -      #295

    “you’ve proven he can quickly accelerate to the speed of sound, moving in a straight line with open space and eventually reach hypersonic, going in a straight line, in open space. ”

    Hey, hey, hey, wanna know something mind blowing?
    THE SKY IS AN OPEN SPACE!
    No way right?

    And he would reach Hypersonic is like 6 seconds. Not that he necessarily needs to reach Hypersonic.
    He would reach it much faster in a dive.
    And if he’s already flying at hypersonic, his dive is going to make him even faster.

    “This is a dense forest environment”

    You’re heavily overestimating the forest. Angels wings would cut straight through them.
    Not to mention the amount of explosives the characters in this match have.
    Trees can be brought down with relative ease.

    ” and team 1 isn’t just going to be standing around playing with their cocks”

    Doesn’t matter what theyll be doing.
    They can’t stop Archangel.

    ” He needs to fly around and if he doesn’t spot a member of team 1 fucking waving at him, he’s not going to be dive bombing shit. ”

    Or… you know… he could spot them the same way he spotted Hawkeye in a dense forest.
    Or… or or or or or or MAYBE he could spot them with the aid of his teammates.
    Or… during a fight between both teams!
    So impossible right?

    ” Most of these guys are covert assassin types and Hawkeye has incredible vision. ”

    Incredible enough to miss Angel. Lol.

    “Also unless Archangel can resist soul possession, Michael takes his bio whatever fuck meat suit for a ride and slaughters team 2.”

    Which you haven’t posted yet.
    So no, Michael isn’t doing diddly shit besides rubbing his weak angelic cock until it’s posted.

  96. Ragnorke December 21, 2014 at 7:21 am -      #296

    Worth noting that Current Angel is alive through the power of the Celestial seed. It’s literally the essence of his existence. And once the seed runs out of energy, he dies again.
    His “soul” doesn’t sound to be anything like what Michael is used to.
    So i’m calling bullshit on him being able to possess something so different.

    Also, has Michael EVER possessed someone?
    Caus if not, it means his CiS is against it. Therefor he will not be doing it here.
    You know… The same way you were bitching about Archangel not diving caus we hadn’t seen it?

  97. sadot06 December 21, 2014 at 7:55 am -      #297

    “Worth noting that Current Angel is alive through the power of the Celestial seed. It’s literally the essence of his existence. And once the seed runs out of energy, he dies again.
    His “soul” doesn’t sound to be anything like what Michael is used to.
    So i’m calling bullshit on him being able to possess something so different.”

    He’s alive though with his own consciousness. Therefore he has a soul, therefore he can be possessed. As can everybody else on team 2 so the flag is coming to team 1 regardless.

    “Also, has Michael EVER possessed someone?”

    He’s never had to. Higher Angels have bodies.

    “Caus if not, it means his CiS is against it. Therefor he will not be doing it here.”

    He has no CIS against it. He’s slaughtered men, women, and children with no remorse until God left and the war began, and then at the end of season 1, went back to not caring about humans after he was betrayed.

    “You know… The same way you were bitching about Archangel not diving caus we hadn’t seen it?”

    Not remotely the same. You were wanking Archangel to high heaven talking about how he solos soon as the match starts. You’re underestimating the terrain and team 1. Archangel needs clear line of sight to dive bomb when the fighting starts, otherwise he can’t see his target and you’ve yet to show him doing anything at hypersonic other than flying over an ocean in a straight line.

  98. Ragnorke December 21, 2014 at 8:12 am -      #298

    “He’s never had to. Higher Angels have bodies.”

    Huh, so you have no proof. Nice.

    “He has no CIS against it. He’s slaughtered men, women, and children with no remorse ”

    Oh, you mean like how Angel had no CIS against divebombing?

  99. Ragnorke December 21, 2014 at 8:14 am -      #299

    ” You were wanking Archangel to high heaven talking about how he solos soon as the match starts.”

    It’s not wanking, because there’s actual proven feats and calculations for it now which cannot be argued with.
    And for the record, i conceded on him soloing over a hundred posts ago. Why you keep mentioning it is beyond me.

    There’s literally only ONE person in this match that is capable of hurting him, using ONE specific method.
    Everyone here is slower than him.
    Everyone here is less durable than him.
    Saying he solos is not wanking at all. It isn’t likely all things considered, but it isn’t that far off either.

    If anything, you seem to be the only person on the “Angel sucks, despite him being superior to everyone else in every way” hate train.

    “Archangel needs clear line of sight to dive bomb when the fighting starts,”

    And the problem with that is…?
    Sure he needs to make a few twists and turns, which will slow down his speed, but it will be fast enough to slice right through people.

    ” otherwise he can’t see his target ”

    He saw hawkeye hiding in the middle of a dense forest.
    You know… that master assassin guy.

    “and you’ve yet to show him doing anything at hypersonic other than flying over an ocean in a straight line.”

    1. HE DOESN’T NEED TO DO ANYTHING ELSE. He can fly THROUGH people, which would cut them in half.
    2. Iv already proven he has the acceleration required to do it.
    3. And he doesn’t need to be anywhere near Hypersonic to accomplish it. He can casually end up with the same result while moving at Sonic.

    Dark Avengers vs X-men (already posted), Mid fight, He flies up, he divebombs, picks bullseye up before bullseye can do anything.
    Now imagine that exact situation, but instead of picking bullseye up and flying away, he just continued straight and cut through him.
    The end.

    If anything, Archangel would be flying FASTER because he knows he doesn’t need to pick up his target and immediately turn.
    Also, Archangel would be flying faster because Archangel IS faster than Angel.

    He’s going to constantly be slaughtering everyone in team 1, and the only thing they can do to stop it is pin him down for a few seconds to buy time for Vash’s AA.
    Until then, he rape stomps. Feats are feats. Stop bitching.
    Once you take into consideration he has a team with him, of tacticians and dudes with explosives, this match is a stomp for team 2, because of how ridiculously powerful Angel is compared to the rest. Deal with it.

  100. sadot06 December 21, 2014 at 8:23 am -      #300

    “Huh, so you have no proof. Nice.”

    I don’t have to prove he has the power of possession anymore than I have to prove people with super strength can cause decapitation with a punch. Angels can possess humans. It’s in the narration of the episode I linked you. Narration=word of god.

    “Oh, you mean like how Angel had no CIS against divebombing?”

    Way to misrepresent the argument.

    “He saw hawkeye hiding in the middle of a dense forest.
    You know… that master assassin guy.”

    And where is this scan?

    The only thing Archangel is going to maneuver into is a headshot or soul rape.

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