CTF – LOST Island

CTF - LOST Island

Brought to you by sadot06

TEAM ONE:
Master Chief (Halo), Vash the Stampede, Hawkeye (Marvel), Archangel Michael (Dominion), Hei (Darker than Black)

TEAM TWO:
Boba Fett (Star Wars), Wesley Gibson, The Punisher, Archangel (X-Men), Batman (DC Comics)

Fight takes place on the Island from LOST.

Standard equipment. Additional weapons will be spread across the Island. The smoke monster is present and will attack if it encounters anyone.

Which side wins?

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388 Comments on "CTF – LOST Island"

  1. The Terror December 18, 2014 at 1:47 pm -      #101

    First

  2. Friendlysociopath December 18, 2014 at 1:54 pm -      #102

    This is where the misunderstanding lies.
    He doesn’t need to fight.
    At all.
    It’ll take him about two seconds to go from one end of the island to the other.
    Go straight up above the clouds.
    Land back on his side.


    He’s going to fly straight to the flag, his ending destination is clear for everyone to see.
    He’s going to get shot at by everyone because he ditched his entire team.
    Black Hole bullets, flare/sonic arrows arrows, altered matter, all of this can easily find its mark because they know exactly what he’s going for. After he’s stunned or incapacitated, he’s then a sitting duck.
    Not to mention the bases ARE INSIDE.

    Vash in particular can certainly hit him if he has enough reaction time to count the bullets of 3 separate Uzi’s firing at him.

  3. Ciridae Hunter December 18, 2014 at 2:00 pm -      #103

    Counting how many rounds that are in an Uzi wouldn’t be challenging since Vash has been alive for several hundred years and probably knows the specs for most of the guns that he encounters.

    On that note, a man that can throw rocks and effortlessly deflect bullets with them would be more than capable of clipping Archangel’s wings-plus he casually bullet-times which helps out a bit as well

  4. The Terror December 18, 2014 at 2:06 pm -      #104

    @Ragnorke
    Hawkeye can just shrink the flag then cover the area with smoke so Angel can’t see it.

  5. Friendlysociopath December 18, 2014 at 2:08 pm -      #105

    Counting how many rounds that are in an Uzi wouldn’t be challenging since Vash has been alive for several hundred years and probably knows the specs for most of the guns that he encounters.

    Ah, my bad, let me rephrase that, he knows the thugs were out of ammo because he counted how many bullets they fired at him and knew how many bullets they should have.

  6. Ciridae Hunter December 18, 2014 at 2:11 pm -      #106

    Pretty impressive feat for his perception.

  7. Warlock Lowk December 18, 2014 at 4:12 pm -      #107

    “Rogue jumped him, Rogue, a X-Men member not in any way renowned for speed or stealth.”

    Depends on what rogue your referring to. Classic aka the most well known has caught bullets out of the air.
    ===
    “Hei has Hawkeye rig the flag with a flash bang or something so it stuns Angel when he tries to get it.”

    You act as if he doesn’t have two tacticians backing him up. Besides that several of them have ranged explosives that they could drop to set of or destroy any traps nearby. Even angel himself is capable of making it rain projectiles.
    Also Bats carries quite a bit of explosive and flashbang ordance on him. The same could be said of team 2.

  8. Friendlysociopath December 18, 2014 at 6:09 pm -      #108

    You act as if he doesn’t have two tacticians backing him up.

    In his defense, Rag was saying Archangel solo’s- so he replied in kind.

    On my own note- those tacticians both rely on prep for their best feats, prep they do not have here. Punisher states in a image Rag linked that he has studied everyone he might ever face in combat, meaning most of his combat feats involved prep. And we know Batman relies on prep far too much for fights.

    Also Bats carries quite a bit of explosive and flashbang ordance on him.

    Also, does Batman have some sort of default loadout like Master Chief? I know for a fact he does not have everything he’s ever used in his belt at once and I don’t see why he doesn’t have a default standard setup like MC does.

    @Terror, what do you mean Hawkeye can shrink the flag? I imagine that goes against the rules of CTF but even still, how can he do that?

  9. The Terror December 18, 2014 at 6:47 pm -      #109

    @Socio
    Apparently he has a pym particle arrow.

  10. Warlock Lowk December 18, 2014 at 9:32 pm -      #110

    “In his defense, Rag was saying Archangel solo’s- so he replied in kind.”

    Oh.
    ===
    “those tacticians both rely on prep for their best feats, prep they do not have here.”

    One is a military Vet that is used to improvising. Man managed to give the Avengers trouble in trying to bring him in through quick planning.

    The other has lead or helped at least two team and one global organization, in addition to a business. Often time into danger against the unknown.
    Before he knew had gotten to know riddler, before all the fancy gadgets, with cobled together equipment during his first years as batman. He managed to take on riddler and lead a team against him when he had previously crippled an entire city through planning and prep.
    Before that there is the way one of his many teacher trained him.
    -Bruce Preps for situation
    i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll223/darknight2k/Intellect-Resources/Knowledge/batman22backup-teachersergei.jpg
    -His teacher went “That cute, But it’s wrong!” and broke his prep toys
    i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll223/darknight2k/Intellect-Resources/Knowledge/batman22backup-sphinxtrap2.jpg
    i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll223/darknight2k/Intellect-Resources/Knowledge/batman22backup-sphinxtrap1.jpg
    -Bruce is now buried underground in with a dwindling supply of air.
    i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll223/darknight2k/Intellect-Resources/Knowledge/batman22backup-sphinxtrap3.jpg
    -Bruce figures it out.
    i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll223/darknight2k/Intellect-Resources/Knowledge/batman22backup-sphinxtrap4.jpg

    Bats does his best at prep but it is not as if he can’t think beyond the bit of prep he has prepared. Besides that, good prep requires an understanding of how to tactically use the info you’ve obtained. That is still a point to being tactical, especially when they have shown to quickly adapt or react to a situation.
    ===
    “I know for a fact he does not have everything he’s ever used in his belt at once and I don’t see why he doesn’t have a default standard setup like MC does.”

    You acting as if I’m using special prep stuff. Trust me if I was I’d would have mentioned the cannon that vaporized a large hole through the sewer ceiling, up through a meter of earth, and into a building floor.
    So far everything I’ve mention is small, compact, or in the belt stuff. His super magnet is about the size of a marble, same for . His flashbangs, smoke rocket/bullets/etc, lasers, emp, and tranq machine gun are actually apart of his armor. He’s also show carrying around a type of launcher and has used sticky explosives or thermite explosives. Of course there are the many batarangs that come in multiple flavors, and don’t pretend like you don’t know he carries those things in bulk. He once just pulled out nth metal one when he found out he was up against a ghost.
    Most of it is from incidents where he had no prep. He was just going out. It’s the stuff he normally bring with him in some normally in some form or another(I.e.
    Batman at least has a excuse for most of his gadgets in that most are small and multipurpose. Since when does Hawkeye carry pym particles as standard?

  11. Warlock Lowk December 18, 2014 at 10:02 pm -      #111

    In case anyone wanted to know Bruce was in Egypt
    i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll223/darknight2k/Intellect-Resources/Knowledge/batman22backup-sphinxtrap5.jpg

    Also if Bats wants to use his explosive as traps they can be remotely detonated. Like he has done here
    i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll223/darknight2k/Mobs-Teams/Battle%20Tactics/detectiveannual3-bastardsofblackgate1.jpg
    i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll223/darknight2k/Mobs-Teams/Battle%20Tactics/detectiveannual3-bastardsofblackgate2.jpg
    i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll223/darknight2k/Mobs-Teams/Battle%20Tactics/detectiveannual3-bastardsofblackgate3.jpg

  12. Friendlysociopath December 18, 2014 at 10:32 pm -      #112

    Batman has 10-12 pouches on his utility belt, I’ve seen more sources for 10.
    Each holds 1 thing:
    one cylinder for smoke bombs
    one cylinder for caltrops
    one for infrared flashlight
    one cylinder for his bat credit card (ha)
    and so on.

    He literally cannot carry everything around that he has ever used. Which is why I was just wondering whether we should design a standard loadout for him so people can’t just say “But Batman has the perfect gadget for that”. It was just an idea.

    I have no idea what pym particles are, from context I’m going with they can alter the size of objects, which is probably breaking some rule of CTF. Isn’t one of the first rules of CTF you can’t screw with the flag?
    (I ask this only because in ye olde Boy Scout CTF that I played when I was younger people would get such a bad time if they moved the flag)

    It’s a shame Hei rarely uses his particle manipulation powers, in theory he can do almost anything with that. I even ran across a theory that he can create contractors (not using that).

    I’ve only seen him use it twice, not counting the giant “fuck you South America” he did offscreen and required the meteor fragment.

    1st time: Hei teleports from the center of Hell’s Gate to a military facility on the outskirts. He then alters every single particle inside the gate and military complex at the quantum level, making them into anti-whatever particles the badguys wanted to turn them into. He also removes the wall leading to the outside for the military complex.

    2nd time: In a Darker than Black manga I have, a contractor suffers a mental break down and forms a wind barrier that starts ripping up the road in a crater several feet deep. Previously he used his power over wind to blast through a solid cement wall. Hei uses his power to make a path through the wind barrier, exactly what he does I do not know, it’s open to guesswork. But the little girl (there had to be one) can freely run up to the wind contractor after that even though his wind field seems to still be in effect.

    Both of those feats are without the meteor fragment.

  13. Jake_Uzumaki December 18, 2014 at 10:54 pm -      #113

    Well Hawkeye might be the best bet to take out armored targets, he’s been known to carry a couple of secondary (I’m assuming secondary) adamantium tipped arrows for the possible Hulk like threats.

    As to how standard they are he had one in a totally random car chase but it isn’t a shrink weapon it was an arrow with many arrows shrunk down inside them that expand when the main arrows are loosed
    i409.photobucket.com/albums/pp176/Strafe_Prower/PymParticleArrow.jpg~original
    i409.photobucket.com/albums/pp176/Strafe_Prower/PymParticleArrow2.jpg~original

    has shown to carry growth pym particles for emergency become a giant situations
    i409.photobucket.com/albums/pp176/Strafe_Prower/PymParticles.png

    and he had a shrink arrow but I don’t know how common it is for him.
    static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11/117571/3595661-atlas4mq.jpg

    seems like Pym particle arrows are something he has fairly often but it’s a crap shoot what variety it would be.

  14. The Terror December 18, 2014 at 10:56 pm -      #114

    @Socio
    Pym particles can grow or shrink any object including to the size of molecules or atoms I believe. ( based off my belief of anything someone can do in a show they can do it better in the comics most of the time.)

  15. Jake_Uzumaki December 18, 2014 at 10:59 pm -      #115

    interestingly Hawkeye actually has fought Archangel head to head before, in a snowy mountain forest
    i409.photobucket.com/albums/pp176/Strafe_Prower/HawkeyevsAngel.jpg~original
    i409.photobucket.com/albums/pp176/Strafe_Prower/HawkeyevsAngel2.jpg~original
    i409.photobucket.com/albums/pp176/Strafe_Prower/HawkeyevsAngel3.jpg~original
    i409.photobucket.com/albums/pp176/Strafe_Prower/HawkeyvsAngel4.jpg~original
    i409.photobucket.com/albums/pp176/Strafe_Prower/HawkeyevsAngel5.jpg~original
    to be continued

  16. Jake_Uzumaki December 18, 2014 at 11:03 pm -      #116

    Hawkeye vs Angel pt 2
    i409.photobucket.com/albums/pp176/Strafe_Prower/HawkeyevsAngel6.jpg~original
    i409.photobucket.com/albums/pp176/Strafe_Prower/HawkeyevsAngel7.jpg~original
    i409.photobucket.com/albums/pp176/Strafe_Prower/HawkeyevsAngel8.jpg~original
    i409.photobucket.com/albums/pp176/Strafe_Prower/HawkeyevsAngel9.jpg~original
    i409.photobucket.com/albums/pp176/Strafe_Prower/HawkeyevsAngel10.jpg~original

    this is in no way indicative of how this fight would actually go if they find each other here, but the fact is they do know each other, as do Punisher and Hawkeye know each other, probably to a lesser extent though.

  17. Jake_Uzumaki December 18, 2014 at 11:08 pm -      #117

    has some fairly potent explosive arrows
    i409.photobucket.com/albums/pp176/Strafe_Prower/Explosivearrows1.jpg~original
    i409.photobucket.com/albums/pp176/Strafe_Prower/Explosivearrows2.jpg~original

    some very potent boom you might say
    i409.photobucket.com/albums/pp176/Strafe_Prower/1462125-s_3-1.jpg~original

    Tear Gas Arrow
    i409.photobucket.com/albums/pp176/Strafe_Prower/TearGasArrow.jpg~original

    Sub-Iceman temperature arrow (whatever that means temp wise)
    i409.photobucket.com/albums/pp176/Strafe_Prower/Widowmaker-01-pg-12.jpg~original

  18. Jake_Uzumaki December 18, 2014 at 11:15 pm -      #118

    catching an arrow while blind
    i409.photobucket.com/albums/pp176/Strafe_Prower/Catchesanarrowwhileblind.jpg~original

    countering a sniper round
    i409.photobucket.com/albums/pp176/Strafe_Prower/1428182-awesome.jpg~original

    archrobatics
    i409.photobucket.com/albums/pp176/Strafe_Prower/1462047-1444304_avgrs_tb_02_17_super.jpg~original

    senses speed and taser arrows
    i409.photobucket.com/albums/pp176/Strafe_Prower/1462127-senses-1.jpg~original

    EMP arrow
    i409.photobucket.com/albums/pp176/Strafe_Prower/1403460-again.jpg~original

  19. Ciridae Hunter December 19, 2014 at 3:13 am -      #119

    I wanted to correct something I said in a previous post-Havoc’s price for her powers was drinking the blood of children and not bathing in it (not exactly relevant to the match but WTF!?)

    We need a standard load out requirement for each Marvel and DC character in this match or else this will just be ridiculous with the dozens of weapons and gadgets on each person (we can have crap lying around the island to even it out a little).

  20. Warlock Lowk December 19, 2014 at 3:42 am -      #120

    “We need a standard load out requirement for each Marvel and DC character in this match or else this will just be ridiculous with the dozens of weapons and gadgets on each person (we can have crap lying around the island to even it out a little).”

    Because that totally has gimped a character before.
    Right Master Chief?
    John 117: *Silently takes a another shot to quiet the depressing memories*

    Anyway I’ve actually noted some of the stuff bats is shown using more then once and during patrols without any advanced prep. But if you guys do, I probably add some input from a guy whose been trying to keep track of the stuff he’s used.
    -Various type of batarangs, explosives, sprays(yes thats a thing, no there isn’t any shark repellent… That I know of), various chemicals for just in case, laser pen(not the kind you go pointing at your friend’s eye.. or do I don’t know your life), sonic weaponry, flashbangs.
    -Projectile launcher. 1 for gauntlets, 1 shaped more gun like. Use them for lobbing explosives, nets, tranqs, mostly non-lethal measures. Think there was some kind of puddy.. or that may have just been the stick explosives.
    -His gauntlets themselves. They have a variety of stuff in them like rubber bullets(That also emit smoke), smoke rocket bomb, lasers, nerve destroying taser like things, and the blade can be fired out.
    -Boot, not to much here that I can recall. They can drop fire out flashbang from the soles.
    -Belt itself is a gadget. Emp generator, anti-magnet device, energy deflector, has an air breather, explosive.
    -Hoping I don’t have to say this but going to just in case. The Cowl/cape/armor.

  21. Ragnorke December 19, 2014 at 4:14 am -      #121

    “Black Hole bullets, flare/sonic arrows arrows, altered matter, all of this can easily find its mark because they know exactly what he’s going for. ”

    Prove it.
    What part of hypersonic aren’t any of you getting?
    SHOW me or CALCULATE for me proof that any of the things mentioned above can hit someone moving at hypersonic.
    Vashes bullets are fast. Great. Since when does that mean he has the physical and mental capabilities required to shoot something hypersonic?

    “Not to mention the bases ARE INSIDE”

    Since when?
    Not that it matters, Archangel has proven has maneuverability and speed indoors.

    “Vash in particular can certainly hit him if he has enough reaction time to count the bullets of 3 separate Uzi’s firing at him.”

    That doesn’t imply he can shoot a hypersonic target at all. At all.
    It means he’s a bullet timer. Which most people here are.

    “In his defense, Rag was saying Archangel solo’s- so he replied in kind.”

    Find me where I said this. I dare you.
    I said team 2 wins because no one else can compete with his speed.
    Since when does this mean I think Archangel solo stomps?

    Also, how durable and fast is Vash?
    Can he survive being hit by energy equivalent to multiple nukes?

  22. Ciridae Hunter December 19, 2014 at 4:34 am -      #122

    Vash throws rocks. At bullets. And hits every one. So that fast. Also dodges bullets regularly.

    What even IS hypersonic? Make a comparison of bullet speed versus hypersonic and I might be impressed.

  23. Ciridae Hunter December 19, 2014 at 4:42 am -      #123

    “So, is anyone here faster than hypersonic? And can anyone here hit harder than a nuke?
    Otherwise I don’t see why Archangel doesn’t just win straight up…”

    Copy and paste from one of your posts, Ragnorke. ‘Cause you dared me to.

  24. Warlock Lowk December 19, 2014 at 5:00 am -      #124

    “What even IS hypersonic? Make a comparison of bullet speed versus hypersonic and I might be impressed. ”

    I’ll pick a random gun.
    www.militaryfactory.com/smallarms/detail.asp?smallarms_id=201
    muzzle velocity: 853 meters per second(1908.11 mph)
    —-
    Hypersonic at lowest is apparently Mach 5 which is 1701.45 meters per second(3806.04 mph)

  25. Ciridae Hunter December 19, 2014 at 5:15 am -      #125

    Thank you-damnable migraines make it hard to think.

    Based on the comparison, an average weapon is much slower than hypersonic speed, but consider the fact that Vash is able to perfectly see, dodge, and deflect bullets with almost no physical effort (in fact, he puts more effort into hiding the fact that he can do these things than actually doing them).

    Also consider that the hole in the moon is at the very least several miles in diameter (not bothering to calculate shit right now), so unless Archangel can dodge several miles in a matter of seconds (the cannon’s speeds are cumbersome to remember) then he’s like the city of millions of people that got Vash his reputation (dead is the implication here-was the city called July or something?).

    Oh, both Vash and his brother wield weapons capable of doing the cannon thing, and both of these are made using the remains of their kin (kinda poetic in a sick way), so they aren’t exactly average weapons.

  26. The Terror December 19, 2014 at 5:27 am -      #126

    “Can he survive being hit by energy equivalent to multiple nukes”
    1. Who on team 2 can pull that off?
    2. If you say Angel then Vash uses the Angel Arm.

  27. Ragnorke December 19, 2014 at 5:54 am -      #127

    “Copy and paste from one of your posts, Ragnorke. ‘Cause you dared me to.”

    Note how I used the word “otherwise” after asking two questions.
    I said Archangel would straight up win IF no one in team 1 was fast or powerful enough to handle him.

    “What even IS hypersonic? Make a comparison of bullet speed versus hypersonic and I might be impressed.”

    Current real life jets go up 7000mph.
    Bullets are about 1400.
    Angel caught up to the jet without any struggle.

  28. Ragnorke December 19, 2014 at 6:04 am -      #128

    “but consider the fact that Vash is able to perfectly see, dodge, and deflect bullets with almost no physical effort ”

    I can probably hit a target moving at 10m/s without any physical effort.
    Since when does that mean I can hit a target moving at 70m/s?

    That’s WITHOUT taking into consideration that angel doesn’t move in a straight line.
    He can turn and dodge WHILE moving at his top speed.
    Which makes it exponentially harder to hit him.

    “so unless Archangel can dodge several miles in a matter of seconds ”

    He can…
    Infact he can dodge about a hundred miles PER SECOND.

    Can you please comprehend how important speed is now?

  29. Ragnorke December 19, 2014 at 6:19 am -      #129

    “2. If you say Angel then Vash uses the Angel Arm”

    According to the wiki; the Arms do not cause harm to organic individuals.

    Care to explain?

  30. Ragnorke December 19, 2014 at 6:40 am -      #130

    The wiki also says that:

    Vash has shown a superhuman level of agility, strength, reflexes, eyesight and complete muscle control. In episodes of the anime, Vash has often shown the ability to dodge bullets at close range and dodge skilled melee attacks (at one point doing so while at the same time pretending to dance with a woman). During a gun duel competition, Vash was able to prevent the deaths of many of the competitors by throwing rocks at key moments to knock bullets off their lethal courses. Vash is possibly stronger than most human beings.

    That seems to imply that Vash is BARELY superhuman in terms of speed and strength.
    He has fast reaction time, but that won’t help diddly shit when a hypersonic blending massacre machine is coming at you with the energy of a nuke.

    Vash instantly gets killed without a fight.
    Considering Archangel can take circles around the entire island in the time it would take Vash to raise his hand.

    I know angels combat speed isn’t nearly as fast… But he doesn’t need combat speed here.
    He can literally fly straight through Vash. And there is NOTHING Vash can do about it.

    Now I can officially say Archangel solos.

  31. The Terror December 19, 2014 at 6:54 am -      #131

    @Ragnorke
    1. Archangel doesn’t have the strength of a nuke
    2. He gets hit with the Angel Arm he loses his armor and if he is in Archangel form thrre goes his wings.
    3. Will his CIS allow him to do that? In fact why would he target Vash first? He would most likely go for Hawkeye first if he wants to fight.

  32. sadot06 December 19, 2014 at 7:03 am -      #132

    “Now I can officially say Archangel solos.”

    So here is how the scenario you’ve painted would actually play out. Batman would gather the team for a strategy session, Archangel would ignore him and take off at full speed (don’t know how long it takes him to reach it btw) and would zoom to the edge of the Island, realize he doesn’t know where the other team is, stop, and start searching more carefully through all the dense forest. Michael would spot him, Hawkeye would put an adamanteum arrow through his temple and team 2 is suddenly down their strongest fighter and now only have Boba Fett left as their flyer.

  33. Ragnorke December 19, 2014 at 7:13 am -      #133

    “1. Archangel doesn’t have the strength of a nuke”

    I said Energy of a Nuke. Not strength.

    “2. He gets hit with the Angel Arm he loses his armor and if he is in Archangel form thrre goes his wings.”

    1. Vash cant hit him with shit due to his speed.
    2. His wings are BIOtech. BIO meaning they have DNA, meaning they are organic.

    “3. Will his CIS allow him to do that?”

    Why wouldnt it?
    If you think CiS stops a character from doing something, you need it to be suggested or implied in canon.
    Otherwise all characters fight and act at MAXIMUM EFFICIENCY.

    ” In fact why would he target Vash first? He would most likely go for Hawkeye first if he wants to fight.”

    He could cut through all 5 of them actually.

  34. Ragnorke December 19, 2014 at 7:16 am -      #134

    @Sadot
    ” So here is how the scenario you’ve painted would actually play out. Batman would gather the team for a strategy session, Archangel would ignore him and take off at full speed (don’t know how long it takes him to reach it btw) and would zoom to the edge of the Island, realize he doesn’t know where the other team is, stop, and start searching more carefully through all the dense forest. Michael would spot him, Hawkeye would put an adamanteum arrow through his temple and team 2 is suddenly down their strongest fighter and now only have Boba Fett left as their flyer.”

    Why does the scenario need to go ANYTHING like that?

    Archangel can stay above the clouds actually.
    He has immensely superhuman eye sight, which he can use to spot someone.
    He can accelerate down at an eagle dive, instantly cut through them with his wings.
    Rince and repeat.

    NO ONE in team one is fast enough to stop it from happening.
    And NO ONE in team one is durable enough to survive it.

    Meanwhile the rest of team 2 can do their strategical defending, and infiltrating.

    We assume characters perform as best as they can. This is the best way Archangel can perform. And it is factually and undeniably better than everyone else here.
    His speed is far too great, and his durability trumps everyone else here too.

  35. Ragnorke December 19, 2014 at 7:19 am -      #135

    “, realize he doesn’t know where the other team is, stop, and start searching more carefully through all the dense forest. Michael would spot him, Hawkeye would put an adamanteum arrow through his temple”

    ^ This part specifically bothered me…

    1. Why do you think he needs to stop? Does that sound efficient to you?
    2. His eyesight allows him to search “carefully” while flying. He doesn’t need to stop.
    3. Proof that hawkeye can shoot him while he’s flying? i haven’t seen any yet.
    4. As stated earlier, it’s debatable whether or not adamantium can actually pierce him. And yes, the armor covers his entire body, even his face.

  36. The Terror December 19, 2014 at 7:30 am -      #136

    @Ragnorke
    Oh, so he is going to stay above the clouds. Vash can fire the Angel Arm into the sky and by time Angel realizes what is going on he won’t be able to dodge it. Stop assuming that Angel can solo cause it has been explained why he can’t do it by himself.

  37. Ragnorke December 19, 2014 at 7:47 am -      #137

    “Vash can fire the Angel Arm into the sky”

    1. Doesn’t it not effect organic things?
    2. How can Vash accurately shoot something hypersonic again?
    Last I checked vash was a bullet timer. Angel is almost ten times faster than that.

    “And by time Angel realizes what is going on he won’t be able to dodge it. ”

    1. Except for the fact that Angel has faster reaction times than Vash.
    2. And how can Vash see above the clouds again? Does Vash have superhuman vision like angel too?

    ” Stop assuming that Angel can solo cause it has been explained why he can’t do it by himself.”

    Your explanations were based on assumptions that angel would act stupidly and inefficiently.
    I provided FACTS showing how and why Angel trumps. And as long as he acts effectively (which BankGambling rules say he does) he has this match in the bag.

  38. The Terror December 19, 2014 at 8:02 am -      #138

    @Ragnorke
    Did you not see the Angel Arm put a crater on the moon? Vash does not have to aim it at him cause the blast is larger than the island! The blast will destroy his armor and most likely knock him out or launch him somewhere else.

  39. Ragnorke December 19, 2014 at 8:40 am -      #139

    “Did you not see the Angel Arm put a crater on the moon?”

    But it had to HIT the moon in order for the energy to be transferred.
    It won’t randomly release energy and explode mid air.
    It needs to Hit angel in order for it to effect him, and that isn’t going to happen.

    And before you say it would hit Archangel:
    /
    Projectile travels at = 3,400,000/10 = 340,000 m/s
    Archangel flys at 3,500 m/s (assuming it took it 10 seconds to reach the moon)
    The Projectile needs to travel 6,000m (height of clouds), which will take 0.02 seconds.
    Archangel needs to move about 1 meter (size of projectile) to dodge the projectile, which he can do in 0.0003 seconds.
    Archangel can essentially dodge a hundred of those projectiles.

    Even if you increase the size of the projectile from 1 meter to 10 meters. (which is bullshit)
    Or if you decrease the time it takes for the projectile to reach the moon from 10 seconds to 1 second. (which you would need to prove)
    Archangel would STILL be able to dodge TEN of those projectiles.

  40. The Terror December 19, 2014 at 8:58 am -      #140

    @Ragnorke

  41. Ragnorke December 19, 2014 at 9:08 am -      #141

    @The Terror
    0:35-2:18 he was charging it up. You realize that’s 103 seconds right?
    I’d like proof he can use it faster… and he needs to be MUCH faster… i mean like almost instant… if he wants even the slightest change at tagging Angel.

    I was right in my estimate that it took about 10 seconds to reach the moon, after the ridiculous 103 seconds that it took to charge up.

    Although i’ll admit the projectile seems larger than 1 meter… but not by much. It’s still a pretty thin projectile.

    And destruction on the ground wont do jack shit to Archangel.

    All in all, Vash is even weaker in my eyes now than he was before i saw that video.
    God help him.

  42. The Terror December 19, 2014 at 9:18 am -      #142

    I’m on my phone and can’t watch the video so look for the part where they fire the weapon yourself.

  43. sadot06 December 19, 2014 at 9:19 am -      #143

    “1. Why do you think he needs to stop? Does that sound efficient to you?”

    More efficient than flying at top speed without knowing where you’re going in a location covered in trees. Does he have X-ray too?

    2. His eyesight allows him to search “carefully” while flying. He doesn’t need to stop.”

    I’ll get to his below.

    “3. Proof that hawkeye can shoot him while he’s flying? i haven’t seen any yet.”

    www.comicvine.com/hawkeye/4005-1475/forums/ultimate-hawkeye-or-616-hawkeye-1556616/”

    www.reddit.com/r/respectthreads/comments/2jt282/respect_hawkeye/

    “4. As stated earlier, it’s debatable
    whether or not adamantium can actually pierce him. And yes, the armor covers his entire body, even his face.”

    It isn’t. You’ll need hard proof to show that he can tank adamantium.

    “He has immensely superhuman eye sight, which he can use to spot someone.
    He can accelerate down at an eagle dive, instantly cut through them with his wings.
    Rince and repeat.”

    You’ll need proof to support your claims. For one, your scan doesn’t prove he can fly at hypersonic speeds. It doesn’t show how fast the X-Jet is moving (X-Jet, not military aircraft), it doesn’t show how fast Angel is moving, and it doesn’t tell us his acceleration. There is no evidence to suggest that he can use this strategy. This is the base of team 1: www.google.com/search?q=Lost+the+temple&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=DTGUVJPJO87FgwSFsISgDw&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAQ&biw=1366&bih=657#facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=GjOnwlCZ55oL8M%253A%3BwFOjL4-rgPRtIM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fimg1.wikia.nocookie.net%252F__cb20100809001450%252Flostpedia%252Fimages%252F5%252F54%252FGrab09777.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Flostpedia.wikia.com%252Fwiki%252FThe_Temple%3B1280%3B720

    The flag is inside. He’s not going to be able dive bomb everybody at hypersonic speeds. Especially since you haven’t shown that he’s capable of that. And where is the proof that he even has the eyesight to spot them ABOVE the clouds while moving at “hypersonic” speeds?

    “1. Except for the fact that Angel has faster reaction times than Vash.”

    All their feats say otherwise.

    “2. And how can Vash see above the clouds again? Does Vash have superhuman vision like angel too?”

    He can deflect bullets with rocks with perfect precision. I’d say his eyesight is pretty super.

  44. Ragnorke December 19, 2014 at 9:20 am -      #144

    Birds move approximately 2-4 times faster during a dive compared to horizontal flight.
    Using that ratio, it would take Archangel between 0.7ish seconds to reach ground level from cloud level.

    Now usually, even IF vash is looking at the sky (for no reason, since he wont see angel that high up) it would take him a fraction of a second for his perception to realize what’s going on.

    He then has to MOVE out of the way.
    That isn’t possible for him. And you know it.

    His only other option is his angel gun, which takes him a couple of MINUTES to.. well… create… or whatever, and another few seconds to actually charge up and shoot.
    That’s ignoring the time it would take him to raise his arm and aim, which is probably another second or two.
    So again, That isn’t possible for him. And you know it.

  45. The Terror December 19, 2014 at 9:30 am -      #145

    Hawkeye can tell Vash about Angel and have him fire the Angel Arm at the sky cause thats where Angel will most likely be, and he can hide under the trees so he can’t be seen. If Angel is smart he is most likely going to think its a trap and not go down there if he sees the light.

  46. Ragnorke December 19, 2014 at 9:40 am -      #146

    @Sadot
    “More efficient than flying at top speed without knowing where you’re going in a location covered in trees. Does he have X-ray too?”

    Ok, since the base is indoors, i’ll take back my claim of Archangel soloing this match, since it’s a capture the flag.
    If however this match was a death match, Archangel still solos.

    ” For one, your scan doesn’t prove he can fly at hypersonic speeds. It doesn’t show how fast the X-Jet is moving (X-Jet, not military aircraft), it doesn’t show how fast Angel is moving. ”

    i.imgur.com/oE98SV9.jpg
    The X-Jet was going as fast as it could.
    And they say if Angel goes any faster they’ll lose him.

    Occam’s Razor, least amount of assumptions is the correct one. Least assumptions in this case is that he’s faster than the X-Jets top speed.

    “and it doesn’t tell us his acceleration. ”

    Not needed.
    Once he gets high enough to avoid any immediate threats, he can accelerate at his leisure.
    And obviously, his Dive Bombs will be amped by aerodynamics and gravity,

    “There is no evidence to suggest that he can use this strategy.”

    Science, Common Sense, Efficiency, and no reason for him not to be able to.
    Put those four together, and it means he can use it in a match.

    ” The flag is inside. He’s not going to be able dive bomb everybody at hypersonic speeds”

    Fair enough.

    “Especially since you haven’t shown that he’s capable of that.”

    Yes i have.

    “And where is the proof that he even has the eyesight to spot them ABOVE the clouds”

    He doesn’t literally need to be above them.

    “All their feats say otherwise.”

    All their feats say otherwise? excuse me? what?
    Vash is a casual bullet timer… Wow.
    Angels reflexes rival Quicksilvers, he dodged multiple simultaneous sentinel lasers, dodged multiple simultaneous force beams, is too fast and maneuverable for Wolverine to hit (who has bullet timing feats), dodges Canonball hits in a closed room (i.imgur.com/xWnbgRT.jpg).

    How on earth can you say Vash has better reflex feats?
    This isn’t up for debate. You’re just flat out wrong.

    “He can deflect bullets with rocks with perfect precision. I’d say his eyesight is pretty super.”

    That’s a reflex feat, not eyesight.

  47. Ragnorke December 19, 2014 at 9:43 am -      #147

    @Terror
    “Hawkeye can tell Vash about Angel and have him fire the Angel Arm at the sky cause thats where Angel will most likely be,”

    Caus the sky is totally only 10 meters wide.
    ^ Sarcasm.

    “and he can hide under the trees so he can’t be seen”

    Oh i’m sure the giant flash of light is pretty easy to see.

    ” If Angel is smart he is most likely going to think its a trap and not go down there if he sees the light.”

    Exactly. Angel will stay in the sky.
    He will see the slow ass beam coming his way. He will dodge it.
    And then he will dive bomb Vash before he has the chance to do jack shit about it.

    Once Vash is dealt with, no one else in team 1 can hit hard enough to so much as phase Archangel.

  48. The Terror December 19, 2014 at 9:53 am -      #148

    You are seriously underestimating the attack. It didn’t even show the attack go up so where did you get the calc from. Also did you not see the tornado form around the beam?

  49. Ragnorke December 19, 2014 at 9:59 am -      #149

    “It didn’t even show the attack go up so where did you get the calc from”

    I counted the time it took since the energy was released, until the time we see the first dot of light on the moon.
    It’s the most accurate calc we can get.

    ” Also did you not see the tornado form around the beam?”

    The destruction was only happening at the extremities of the beam.
    Meaning the bottom and the end. Angel would be at neither of those points.

  50. Ragnorke December 19, 2014 at 10:13 am -      #150

    also, why haven’t you given me a straight answer about the Angel Hand not effecting organic things yet?

    Because if it literally means what i think it means… it’s basically a useless weapon.

    So, are you going to explain it or not?

  51. The Terror December 19, 2014 at 10:20 am -      #151

    When we see the beam show up it is already hitting the moon. You can tell by what seems like a crack that is expanding and that is before we actually see the moon. The beam is way faster than what you are giving it credit for.

  52. The Terror December 19, 2014 at 10:26 am -      #152

    The attack is going to destroy his armor and the force of the blast is knock him out if it doesn’t kill cause as we can see from the video people are still effected by the force of the blast.

  53. Ragnorke December 19, 2014 at 10:47 am -      #153

    “When we see the beam show up it is already hitting the moon. You can tell by what seems like a crack that is expanding and that is before we actually see the moon”

    We can easily tell how long the crack has been there though by measuring the rate at which the crack was expanding.
    The beam reached 1 or 2 seconds before we see the moon, if not less.

    “The attack is going to destroy his armor”

    Nope.
    His armor is organic.
    It’s BIO-tech, meaning it’s biological. It has DNA (apocolypses). It regenerates with Warrens healing factor just like all his other cells do, and etc.
    It’s a biological part of his body.

    “from the video people are still effected by the force of the blast.”

    I just saw the moon and buildings breaking though…

    For the record, if Vash actually uses that, it’s going to destroy all the trees and covered enviroments. Which is literally team 1s ONLY advantage.

  54. The Terror December 19, 2014 at 11:03 am -      #154

    @Ragnorke
    Can Angel that fast? I doubt it.

    People were being pulled toward the beam as you can tell by the two women being pulled towards it.

    Show scans saying the armor is biotech.

  55. Ciridae Hunter December 19, 2014 at 11:12 am -      #155

    Obviously it affects organic things since the first time he used it-not to mention I was just looking at the Wiki (cringe if you must) and it says nothing about the Angel Arm being useless against organic life

  56. Ciridae Hunter December 19, 2014 at 11:23 am -      #156

    Isn’t leaving the island at all against the rules of CTF? I think going miles away from the island in any direction counts as this. You assume he would just puss out in the clouds like a sky bitch but Archangel would be too whiny (righteously invigorated) to stay away.

    Plus Hei is able to change matter at the quantum level, meaning he could change the composition of Angel’s armor to make it weaker than tin or to make it too dense for Angel to effectively fly in.

  57. Ciridae Hunter December 19, 2014 at 11:24 am -      #157

    The fight says “on” the Island, so Angel can’t be the sky puss you want him to be

  58. sadot06 December 19, 2014 at 11:30 am -      #158

    “i.imgur.com/oE98SV9.jpg
    The X-Jet was going as fast as it could.
    And they say if Angel goes any faster they’ll lose him.

    Occam’s Razor, least amount of assumptions is the correct one. Least assumptions in this case is that he’s faster than the X-Jets top speed.”

    We go by the evidence. You haven’t provided specs or the rest of the scans so we don’t know how fast it’s going and how fast it can reach. They don’t say they’re going at top speed. All that scan actually tells us is that they’re trailing Archangel, which means they can’t go too fast or he’ll see them, so they have to stay far enough behind him to maintain a visual, but move fast enough to avoid losing him. You need more information to make the claims you’re making.

    “Not needed. Once he gets high enough to avoid any immediate threats, he can accelerate at his leisure.”

    It is needed. You’re acting as if he is always hypersonic, but the vast majority of his battle feats say otherwise. So if he were hypersonic, it would be in max flight speed going in a straight line after a certain amount of time. Not from a stand still, in combat, with projectiles flying at him through the cover of trees.

    “And obviously, his Dive Bombs will be amped by aerodynamics and gravity”

    Aerodynamics you haven’t sourced based on birds, not a human covered in armor with giant armor wings. And when has he dive bombed as a battle tactic? That’s more difficult than you’re making it seem. He’s in a free fall and will be colliding with a human and the ground, then will need to recover and launch back up before anybody can react.

    “Science, Common Sense, Efficiency, and no reason for him not to be able to.
    Put those four together, and it means he can use it in a match.”

    You’re making broad assumptions with minimal evidence.

    “He doesn’t literally need to be above them.”

    That’s what you said when I pointed out how easily he could be spotted. And you haven’t provided eyesight feats.

    “All their feats say otherwise? excuse me? what?
    Vash is a casual bullet timer… Wow.
    Angels reflexes rival Quicksilvers, he dodged multiple simultaneous sentinel lasers, dodged multiple simultaneous force beams, is too fast and maneuverable for Wolverine to hit (who has bullet timing feats), dodges Canonball hits in a closed room (i.imgur.com/xWnbgRT.jpg).

    How on earth can you say Vash has better reflex feats?
    This isn’t up for debate. You’re just flat out wrong.”

    I’m basing it on evidence. Vash has better feats of bullet timing than Archangel does, and we can easily dismiss his best feat vs Quicksilver as PIS, just like all the instances when street level characters hit the Flash.

    “That’s a reflex feat, not eyesight.”

    That is well beyond just reflexes. He can see the bullets, mark the trajectories and throw rocks with the speed, strength, and precision to hit all of the bullets after they left the gun so that they don’t hit any innocent people. That is a better speed, reaction, and vision feat than everything you’ve presented for Archangel.

  59. Ragnorke December 19, 2014 at 12:29 pm -      #159

    @Sadot
    ” They don’t say they’re going at top speed. All that scan actually tells us is that they’re trailing Archangel, which means they can’t go too fast or he’ll see them,”

    That’s a massive assumption to make.
    If person y says “if person x goes any faster, we’ll lose him” out of context, the answer that needs the least assumptions is that person x is faster than y.
    Not that X is being tailgated.
    You need to provide evidence that they were tailgating him.

    The scan i provided is clear. It implies Angel is faster than the X-Jet.
    If you think it was posted out of context, YOU have to prove it.

    ” You’re acting as if he is always hypersonic, but the vast majority of his battle feats say otherwise.”

    I have NEVER said or implied he’s always hypersonic.
    If you think i did, your English must not be very good.

    ” So if he were hypersonic, it would be in max flight speed going in a straight line after a certain amount of time”

    I never said otherwise.

    “Not from a stand still, in combat, with projectiles flying at him through the cover of trees.”

    1. Why would seeing projectiles flying from the trees make him slow down?
    2. His combat speed is irrelevant since he can fly through people and cut them in half.

    “Aerodynamics you haven’t sourced based on birds, not a human covered in armor with giant armor wings”

    Metallic Jets have a similar increase during dives.
    Archangels wings are clearly shaped as aerodynamic.
    Will they necessarily increase his speed by exactly 2-4 times like birds? probably not, but it’s an estimate.
    But his wing structure IS aerodynamic enough for him to get a massive speed boost while diving.

    You think otherwise? Prove it. Science is on my side.

    “That’s more difficult than you’re making it seem. He’s in a free fall and will be colliding with a human and the ground,”

    He has armor. I see no problem in this.

    ” then will need to recover and launch back up before anybody can react.”

    Vash is the only important target.
    He doesn’t need to do shit after Vash is dead, since no one else can harm him.

    He can create nuke level energy with his hands, and can survive nuke level energy without so much as a scratch.

    “You’re making broad assumptions with minimal evidence.”

    All my evidence has already been provided and hasn’t been countered in any way.
    feel free to actually PROVE any of it wrong, rather than claiming that it “could” be wrong.

    “I’m basing it on evidence. Vash has better feats of bullet timing than Archangel does,”

    And Angel has feats which trump bullet timing to the ground.
    But obviously you’re ignoring everything that doesn’t appeal to you.

    “and we can easily dismiss his best feat vs Quicksilver as PIS, just like all the instances when street level characters hit the Flash.”

    Bullshit.
    Since when are street level characters capable of Hypersonic Flight?
    The speed difference between QS & Angel isn’t nearly as large as Street Level characters and Flash.
    It isn’t unrealistic, impossible, or bad writing in any sense of the manner.
    His reaction time is rather consistent.
    You think it’s PiS? i think Vash throwing stones at bullets is PiS. Now go fuck yourself.

    “He can see the bullets, mark the trajectories and throw rocks with the speed, strength, and precision to hit all of the bullets after they left the gun so that they don’t hit any innocent people. That is a better speed, reaction, and vision feat than everything you’ve presented for Archangel.”

    1. Throwing rocks at bullets isn’t a better speed feat than hypersonic.
    2. Throwing rocks at bullets isn’t a better reaction feat than out-maneuvering quicksilver.
    3. It isn’t a vision feat at all.

    “That is well beyond just reflexes. He can see the bullets”

    Seeing something fast is a matter of the neurons in your brain processing it fast.
    It isn’t “well beyond just reflexes”, and saying that simply makes you well beyond stupid.
    The concept if vision depends entirely on how fast your eyes send signals to your brain, which is related to your reflexes and nothing else.
    Faster Reflexes = being capable of seeing events that take a shorter time to happen.
    This has NOTHING to do with having superhuman eyes or vision. At all.
    If you sped up the neurons in my brain, and kept my eyes the exact same way, i would be able to see “faster” events than i do now.

    “That’s what you said when I pointed out how easily he could be spotted.”

    So what if he’s spotted? no one can hit him.

    “And you haven’t provided eyesight feats.”

    Finding a feat that specific of a relatively unpopular character is difficult.
    Just read the wiki for now.

  60. Warlock Lowk December 19, 2014 at 12:44 pm -      #160

    So the soloing thing now set aside. Angel, is he good enough to take out micheal?

  61. Ragnorke December 19, 2014 at 12:44 pm -      #161

    Oh, and it’s worth noting that this entire “angel flying up high, and diving down and killing Vash as fast and efficiently as possible to eliminate him right off the bat” was only because Vash is the only person here that can kill Angel.

    HOWEVER, that was before i saw how long the charge up on his angel hand is.
    So to be honest, we can drop that entire argument all together.
    The Angel Hand isn’t a problem.

    Angel can simply flat out slaughter everyone without the need to fly or dive bomb at all, with a little bit of help and planning from his team.

    The destruction the Angel Hand caused on ground level didn’t even properly building bust as far as i saw. So Warren would survive it.
    The Moon Crater part of the Angel Hand beam isn’t going to hit Warren considering its charge up.

    @Cirdea Hunter
    “Isn’t leaving the island at all against the rules of CTF? I think going miles away from the island in any direction counts as this.”
    “The fight says “on” the Island, so Angel can’t be the sky puss you want him to be”

    It doesn’t say so in the match rules, and Sadot didn’t mention it before post 50.
    So it’s perfectly allowed.

    “Plus Hei is able to change matter at the quantum level, meaning he could change the composition of Angel’s armor”

    i’m 99% sure you would need to know what the matter you’re trying to change is before you change it.
    And considering the Celestial Bio-Tech is an interdimensional Alien material… Yea… Goodluck

    “-not to mention I was just looking at the Wiki (cringe if you must) and it says nothing about the Angel Arm being useless against organic life”

    trigun.wikia.com/wiki/Angel_Arm
    It says word to word that it doesn’t cause harm to organic individuals.
    Wiki isn’t a reliable source for feats, encounters, or ability measurements… But when it has a statement as direct as that, you can’t just ignore it.
    Iv asked multiple times for someone to explain it to me in more detail though.

    @The Terror
    “Can Angel that fast? I doubt it.”

    Did you ignore my calculations?
    I know angel can’t fly as fast as the beam itself, but why on earth would he need to?
    If you want to dodge a bullet, you dont have to move faster than the bullet, you just need to take a step right or left before the bullet reaches you.
    Re-read my calculations please.

    “Show scans saying the armor is biotech.”

    i.imgur.com/lyjthUg.jpg
    It says the armor is created by his own cells. It’s undeniably organic.

  62. The Terror December 19, 2014 at 12:45 pm -      #162

    @Ragnorke
    1. He doesn’t know Vash has the AA.
    2. He sees the light he is going to watch it wondering what it is.
    3. Hei van increase the weight of his armor and wings.
    3. Vash fires the AA and Angel doesn’t have enough time to dodge.
    4. I forgot to mention that he now has his brother’s gun which allows him to use the AA that destroys organic matter.

  63. Ragnorke December 19, 2014 at 12:46 pm -      #163

    And… Did everyone here forget Angels Pinions have neurological toxins that paralyze people?
    They even had a brief effect on Wolverine.

    It was kinda brushed aside early on, but it’s a MASSIVE difference.

  64. The Terror December 19, 2014 at 12:49 pm -      #164

    I was talking about the celestial armor cause I thought that was what you were talking about.

  65. Ragnorke December 19, 2014 at 12:50 pm -      #165

    @Terror
    “2. He sees the light he is going to watch it wondering what it is”

    No. This isn’t a silly Anime. That’s not how debates go.
    Combatants don’t just stand still wondering what something is.

    “3. Hei van increase the weight of his armor and wings.”

    1. Proof Hei can use it on organic living cells.
    2. Proof Hei can use it on matter composition that isn’t even on the periodic table.

    “4. I forgot to mention that he now has his brother’s gun which allows him to use the AA that destroys organic matter.”

    Post it…

    “3. Vash fires the AA and Angel doesn’t have enough time to dodge.”

    Or Angel shoots a Pinion at them which paralyzes him while he’s charging it.
    I don’t think he can accurately charge up his AA and dodge a Pinion at the same time.

    “I was talking about the celestial armor cause I thought that was what you were talking about.”

    It is technically Celestial armor.
    Well, it’s more celestial “Material” rather than armor.
    But it’s used to enhance your DNA, which allows your cells to make the armor.

  66. Friendlysociopath December 19, 2014 at 12:57 pm -      #166

    His reaction time is rather consistent.

    Would that be the same reaction time he has where Hawkeye and him seem evenly matched in the scans Jake posted? Actually it looks like Hawkeye is kicking his ass and dodging his nefarious pinions but I’ll give it the benefit of a doubt and call them even.

    1. Proof Hei can use it on organic living cells.
    2. Proof Hei can use it on matter composition that isn’t even on the periodic table.


    1. Let’s see, his power description states he can alter all matter at the quantum level, no reason that wouldn’t work on organic tissue.
    2. He converts one type of particle to another type of particle in a 1,500 km radius, since the particle he created doesn’t exist- I see no reason he can’t do this to whatever he wants.

  67. Ciridae Hunter December 19, 2014 at 12:57 pm -      #167

    Wow. Ragnorke, first of all, the trees make use of the feathers impractical at best, so MASSIVE isn’t as massive as you think it is.

    Secondly, the particles inside Hell’s Gate aren’t on the periodic table otherwise they might affect non-Contractors I’d the Ring would have been used on them.

    Thirdly, can you prove that Angel’s armor could resist Hei’s specific powers?

    Fourthly, if he covers his entire body with the bio armor then why is he always blocking with wings or attacking with them?

    Lastly, Hei’s abilities are “manipulation of electricity and the manipulation of matter on a quantum level”-where has it ever been said that it only affects inorganic matter? If you can’t even prove that, then you are grasping at straws.

  68. Friendlysociopath December 19, 2014 at 1:05 pm -      #168

    Derp, I’m dumb-
    1) Whenever Hei shocks someone he’s just using this power, electrocution is just the easier way of using it. He does this to people perfectly alive and organic.

    Did everyone here forget Angels Pinions have neurological toxins that paralyze people?

    Since he has two different forms this might not be correct but- he cuts Hawkeye with a feather in that sequence Jake posted and Hawkeye seems to be fine.

    Also, Bubble Shield.

  69. The Terror December 19, 2014 at 1:08 pm -      #169

    Check video on post 142

    I’ll make this simple.

    Vash hides in the forest and starts charging the his two Angel Arms. Angel is in the sky and sees the light thinking it’s a trap or one of teammates. Cause he doesn’t know what is going on when the explosion comes he may wait for it to end or go check it out. Then the beam comes and wipes him out.

  70. Ragnorke December 19, 2014 at 1:13 pm -      #170

    @Friendly
    “Would that be the same reaction time he has where Hawkeye and him seem evenly matched in the scans Jake posted?”

    His combat speed is shitty. Sure. I never said otherwise.
    Reaction speed isn’t dependent on your bodily movements in the slightest.
    Also, that was Angel, not Archangel. Archangel is superior.

    “1. Let’s see, his power description states he can alter all matter at the quantum level, no reason that wouldn’t work on organic tissue.”

    If he hasn’t shown the ability in use, it would imply he isn’t capable of doing it based on lack of experience, knowledge, or even a simply skill limitation.
    So prove it.

    “2. He converts one type of particle to another type of particle in a 1,500 km radius, since the particle he created doesn’t exist- I see no reason he can’t do this to whatever he wants.”

    Were any of those particles part of living things?

    “1) Whenever Hei shocks someone he’s just using this power, electrocution is just the easier way of using it. He does this to people perfectly alive and organic.”

    This doesn’t provide proof.
    If anything, it implies his powers can only shock living things rather than transmute them.

    Look, it’s just a yes or no question.
    Has he transmuted a living being on a quantum level or not?

    “Since he has two different forms this might not be correct but- he cuts Hawkeye with a feather in that sequence Jake posted and Hawkeye seems to be fine.”

    Archangel.

    “Also, Bubble Shield.”

    Am i supposed to read your mind through my computer?

  71. The Terror December 19, 2014 at 1:15 pm -      #171

    Also about the super sight, it is still going to be hard to see Vash through a bunch of trees and the light caused by charging.

  72. Ciridae Hunter December 19, 2014 at 1:16 pm -      #172

    “We’re any of those particles a part of living things?”

    They exist within all Contractors and Dolls, so is that organic enough for you?

  73. Ragnorke December 19, 2014 at 1:20 pm -      #173

    @Hunter
    “Wow. Ragnorke, first of all, the trees make use of the feathers impractical at best, so MASSIVE isn’t as massive as you think it is.”

    Good point.
    Would be a nice little edge in certain situations though. Specifically one on ones.

    “Secondly, the particles inside Hell’s Gate aren’t on the periodic table otherwise they might affect non-Contractors I’d the Ring would have been used on them.”

    Ok, another good point.
    Has he used it on a living person before though?

    If Hei can just instantly kill anyone and everyone he sees on a quantum level… Why is there even a story?
    Iv seen a couple of episodes, and i can assure you the above statement isn’t the case.

    “Fourthly, if he covers his entire body with the bio armor then why is he always blocking with wings or attacking with them?”

    He doesn’t always block with his wings…
    He USED to, back when the armor only covered his wings.

    “Thirdly, can you prove that Angel’s armor could resist Hei’s specific powers?”

    Can you prove Heis power has ever worked on a living person the way you guys are suggesting?

    “Lastly, Hei’s abilities are “manipulation of electricity and the manipulation of matter on a quantum level”-where has it ever been said that it only affects inorganic matter? If you can’t even prove that, then you are grasping at straws.”

    Because if it worked without a limitation on living things, the story wouldn’t be anything like it is.

    It seems to me like there’s no proof, and you guys know there’s no proof… so you’re beating around the bush and trying to avoid it.

  74. Ragnorke December 19, 2014 at 1:24 pm -      #174

    @The Terror
    “Cause he doesn’t know what is going on when the explosion comes he may wait for it to end or go check it out. Then the beam comes and wipes him out.”

    Rofl what?
    Why on earth would he just stand still and wait?
    That’s not how debates work.
    The beam isn’t touching him unless he’s already pinned from something else.

    However, i do concede that Archangel doesn’t solo.
    He is stronger, faster, and more durable than any of them… but if he gets pinned down for a few seconds, Vash can finish him off pretty easily.

    So i do admit he would lose alone.

  75. The Terror December 19, 2014 at 1:25 pm -      #175

    When a character has some ability that should allow him to steamroll through his verse but he doesn’t and isn’t explained why then it’s most likely plot so they have a show.

  76. Ragnorke December 19, 2014 at 1:28 pm -      #176

    “When a character has some ability that should allow him to steamroll through his verse but he doesn’t and isn’t explained why then it’s most likely plot so they have a show.”

    Except he has never shown the ability at all.
    So bullshit.

    You know as well as i that if Hei could INSTANTLY transmute ANYTHING and ANYONE, there would be SOME mention of it.
    So no, he can’t.

    Lets say a character x has telekinesis. He’s the protagonist of the show.
    A show which has about a hundred episodes.
    And in every one of these episodes, X encounters a fight or an enemy.
    X consistently uses his TK to throw objects around, and to throw objects at enemies
    But X has NEVER shown the ability to use TK on living things.
    Even though it could have helped out in EVERY fight he ever had. And it could have saved the lives of his loved ones. And it could have potentially saved the entire planet.
    But he NEVER did it, or even mentioned that he could.
    Do we still assume he can?

    If a character did something ONCE, and never did it again, it can be blamed on plot or CiS.
    But this is an entirely different story.

    The most obvious answer is that he isn’t experienced enough to do it.
    OR his powers have limits.

  77. The Terror December 19, 2014 at 1:28 pm -      #177

    Well I’m glad you concede. What’s up next? I want this match to be fp worthy.

    I’m just saying that if absolutely no explanation is given and there is no evidence given for an answer then plot is usually the answer.

  78. Friendlysociopath December 19, 2014 at 1:33 pm -      #178

    @TheTerror, Archangel is really not just going to stay still looking at the light and saying “Wonder what that is?”

    Because if it worked without a limitation on living things, the story wouldn’t be anything like it is.

    Because every fictional character ever uses all of their powers at the maximum ability all of the time.

    It seems to me like there’s no proof, and you guys know there’s no proof… so you’re beating around the bush and trying to avoid it.

    That would be because you want one very specific piece of evidence and you aren’t accepting what we’ve told you. Hei shocks people to death, there’s your proof his power works on organics matter.

    Why would he want to alter their particles in some sort of alien *and attention grabbing* way when he can just shock them to death?

  79. The Terror December 19, 2014 at 1:39 pm -      #179

    TBH I never watched DTB so I really don’t know what to say about that.

  80. Ragnorke December 19, 2014 at 1:53 pm -      #180

    “Because every fictional character ever uses all of their powers at the maximum ability all of the time.”

    But what if a fictional character has NEVER shown his maximum ability?
    Why in fuckety fuck should i assume it’s something that he’s never shown or mentioned before?

    ” Hei shocks people to death, there’s your proof his power works on organics matter.”

    Iv seen his shock not instantly killing people before. And iv seen him lose fights.
    Why shock them when he can just insta-transmute everything?
    Why would there ever be any “fight” to begin with?

    Listen, Experience and Knowledge are VERY viable arguments.
    If someone theoretically has the power to do something, but has never shown/stated/implied/mentioned/suggested that he can do it… we assume he can’t.

    Not because his powers don’t have the potential to, but because HE as a character doesn’t know how to.
    There’s nothing more to it.

  81. Warlock Lowk December 19, 2014 at 2:19 pm -      #181

    So let me get this straight you need the guy with the biggest gun, the bow guy, and/or the guy that would supposedly be keeping batman busy to stop Angel. Yeah, lets go with leaving the guy that disappears like it’s a superpower and the guy that can snipe a man from four miles away alone with targets revealing themselves. That can’t possibly go wrong.

  82. sadot06 December 19, 2014 at 2:19 pm -      #182

    “That’s a massive assumption to make.
    If person y says “if person x goes any faster, we’ll lose him” out of context, the answer that needs the least assumptions is that person x is faster than y.
    Not that X is being tailgated.
    You need to provide evidence that they were tailgating him.”

    I don’t have to provide anything. You need to provide context for the scan. This is BankGambling. That statement isn’t clear on it’s on, and is accompanied by an image that also doesn’t support your interpretation.

    “The scan i provided is clear. It implies Angel is faster than the X-Jet.
    If you think it was posted out of context, YOU have to prove it.”

    Burden of proof fallacy. The scan isn’t clear. It’s an indisputable fact that it’s out of context, you even said that it is in the very post I’m quoting. We don’t know what’s happening. All we see is the jet pursuing Angel and a remark about losing him. Since they aren’t shooting at him and Archangel doesn’t even acknowledge their presence, the obvious assumption is that they’re merely trailing him. YOU prove otherwise.

    “I have NEVER said or implied he’s always hypersonic.
    If you think i did, your English must not be very good.”

    Ragnorke December 17, 2014 at 3:49 pm – #32

    “I’m going to guess those are not light speed and those were called force beams. I think Hei can take him ”

    Since when was hei hypersonic?

    Ragnorke December 17, 2014 at 4:59 pm – #50

    So, is anyone here faster than hypersonic? And can anyone here hit harder than a nuke?
    Otherwise I don’t see why Archangel doesn’t just win straight up…

    Ragnorke December 18, 2014 at 3:13 am – #82
    Also, are we forgetting that he’s still faster than hypersonic?
    That he has faster reaction time than quicksilver?

    If you’re going to be an asshole, at least be right.

    “1. Why would seeing projectiles flying from the trees make him slow down?”

    Your English needs work. The cover of trees means he CAN’T see projectiles. And he has to slow down, this is capture the flag, and the flag is indoors and the enemy is inside a dense forest.

    “2. His combat speed is irrelevant since he can fly through people and cut them in half.”

    Proof? Show me him using this tactic of hiding in the sky moving at top speed and then swooping down at top speed and cutting people, at top speed. Also, again, trees.

    “Metallic Jets have a similar increase during dives.
    Archangels wings are clearly shaped as aerodynamic.
    Will they necessarily increase his speed by exactly 2-4 times like birds? probably not, but it’s an estimate.
    But his wing structure IS aerodynamic enough for him to get a massive speed boost while diving.

    You think otherwise? Prove it. Science is on my side.”

    Burden of proof fallacy. You’re not even sourcing your arguments. You have zero science to support how fast Archangel is.

    “He has armor. I see no problem in this.

    Vash is the only important target.
    He doesn’t need to do shit after Vash is dead, since no one else can harm him.”

    Oh that’s right, I forgot he read the full biography of team 1 before being zapped to this universe for a CTF battle, so he totally knows to go after Vash. LMAO. Also Masterchief, Hawkeye, and Hei can hurt him. Probably Michael too since his weapons are forged in Heaven.

    “He can create nuke level energy with his hands, and can survive nuke level energy without so much as a scratch.”

    I missed those scans. Where are they?

    “Bullshit.
    Since when are street level characters capable of Hypersonic Flight?”

    You haven’t provided proof of him being hypersonic. And all his combat feats point to him topping out at bullet timer in reaction at best. Though I don’t recall him actually dodging bullets. Just beams.

    “The speed difference between QS & Angel isn’t nearly as large as Street Level characters and Flash.”

    But it’s pretty damn significant based on how fast I’ve read Quicksilver is.

    “It isn’t unrealistic, impossible, or bad writing in any sense of the manner.
    His reaction time is rather consistent.”

    I’d say not since most of his encounters that have been shown are him facing non hypersonic things. Plus given how old that scan was and the lack of context, we don’t even know if that version of Quicksilver was hypersonic.

    “You think it’s PiS? i think Vash throwing stones at bullets is PiS. Now go fuck yourself.”

    No, you’re just e-raging because you’re losing. And most of Vash’s feats involve bullet timing so that would not in fact be PIS.

    “1. Throwing rocks at bullets isn’t a better speed feat than hypersonic.”

    No proof that he is. But hitting bullets with rocks is way more interesting than flying in a straight line over the ocean.

    “2. Throwing rocks at bullets isn’t a better reaction feat than out-maneuvering quicksilver.”

    Yeah it is. Quicksilver couldn’t even control himself. And we don’t even know how fast that incarnation was.

    “3. It isn’t a vision feat at all.

    Seeing something fast is a matter of the neurons in your brain processing it fast.
    It isn’t “well beyond just reflexes”, and saying that simply makes you well beyond stupid.
    The concept if vision depends entirely on how fast your eyes send signals to your brain, which is related to your reflexes and nothing else.
    Faster Reflexes = being capable of seeing events that take a shorter time to happen.
    This has NOTHING to do with having superhuman eyes or vision. At all.
    If you sped up the neurons in my brain, and kept my eyes the exact same way, i would be able to see “faster” events than i do now.”

    Well Mr. ad hominem, let me school you again. He’s seeing fast moving objects, he’s also seeing very small objects, and is throwing rocks perfectly so that the bullets go away from innocent people. That is a feat of reflexes, strength, eye-sight, and intelligence.

    “So what if he’s spotted? no one can hit him.”

    Sure they can. He isn’t hypersonic as far as you’ve proven, he can’t always being moving at full speed, otherwise he’ll never be useful in this match, and he can’t see through trees.

    “Finding a feat that specific of a relatively unpopular character is difficult.
    Just read the wiki for now.”

    That’s your problem. I already read his wiki, you need to provide feats to support your claims about what he can do with his vision, or stop bringing them up.

  83. sadot06 December 19, 2014 at 2:22 pm -      #183

    “So let me get this straight you need the guy with the biggest gun, the bow guy, and/or the guy that would supposedly be keeping batman busy to stop Angel. Yeah, lets go with leaving the guy that disappears like it’s a superpower and the guy that can snipe a man from four miles away alone with targets revealing themselves. That can’t possibly go wrong.”

    You’ve got it quite wrong. Rag is arguing that Archangel will attempt to solo team 1 by flying straight for them when the match starts, leaving his much slower teammates behind, since their bases are on opposite ends of the island.

  84. The Terror December 19, 2014 at 2:34 pm -      #184

    @Lowk
    MC and Michael can take care of the rest seeing how only Boba Fett can hurt them if Angel is occupied.

  85. Warlock Lowk December 19, 2014 at 2:35 pm -      #185

    ” Since they aren’t shooting at him and Archangel doesn’t even acknowledge their presence, the obvious assumption is that they’re merely trailing him. YOU prove otherwise.”

    Still keeping up with a aircraft based off a jet that can hit mach 4 that was further advanced with alien tech. Puts him just shy of hypersonic.
    ===
    “But it’s pretty damn significant based on how fast I’ve read Quicksilver is.”

    Normal QS is hypersonic. Last I heard he was hitting mach 5 possible faster. And it depends on the street leveler really.

  86. sadot06 December 19, 2014 at 2:47 pm -      #186

    “Still keeping up with a aircraft based off a jet that can hit mach 4 that was further advanced with alien tech. Puts him just shy of hypersonic.”

    The jet was pursuing him, and we don’t know how fast it was going.

    “Normal QS is hypersonic. Last I heard he was hitting mach 5 possible faster. And it depends on the street leveler really.”

    I was talking about old Quicksilver since that is the scan he’s arguing with.

  87. Warlock Lowk December 19, 2014 at 2:52 pm -      #187

    “MC and Michael can take care of the rest seeing how only Boba Fett can hurt them if Angel is occupied.”

    Boba Fett can hurt them because of weaponry. Weaponry that isn’t attached to him. Which he has more then one of. That can be fired in the same manner that everyone of his allies is used to.
    Also going by the link someone gave for Michael he can be knocked unconscious by electricity. Anyone care to explain that one?

  88. The Terror December 19, 2014 at 3:02 pm -      #188

    @Lowk
    I said Boba Fett can hurt them not that he couldn’t. MC will most likely win in a fight between him and Fett while Michael snaps the necks of the other three.

    I do not know about the electricity one, but he is bullet proof.

  89. Warlock Lowk December 19, 2014 at 3:12 pm -      #189

    “The jet was pursuing him, and we don’t know how fast it was going.”

    Just saw it. They said if he goes any faster they are going to lose him indicating that they were not capable of traveling faster aka as fast as they can go. Which mean that he’s going at the top speed of a aircraft capable of hitting mach 4.
    ===
    Found some more feats for Angel
    Vs Silver Samurai, Aerial Agility/combat
    i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd485/infamousColeMacgrath/Marvel/saMy_zps43c18e7c.jpg
    Energy sword I posted earlier. Can manipulate it further
    i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd485/infamousColeMacgrath/Marvel/saMX_zps356d70cb.jpg
    IN GUILE’S VOICE: Sonicboom!
    i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd485/infamousColeMacgrath/Marvel/saN1_zps2480cf63.jpg

  90. Warlock Lowk December 19, 2014 at 3:28 pm -      #190

    “I said Boba Fett can hurt them not that he couldn’t.”

    I know, I was saying it’s becasue of his weapons. Weapons that any member of his team can use. Turning one guy capable of hurting them into at least three. One of which is fast enough to deflects a bullet and accurate enough to hit people with bending bullets.
    ===
    “MC will most likely win in a fight between him and Fett while Michael snaps the necks of the other three.”

    Fett has a Jet Pack. How is Chief going to even touch him? As for Michael, I managed to track down a tribute video, his fighting didn’t seem particularly fast or a skilled as the comic heroes. Bulletproof is nice but we are talking about people with everything from flashbangs to alien guns one of which has taken on superhuman zombie assassins with the agility of nightwing in his batherobe.

  91. The Terror December 19, 2014 at 3:39 pm -      #191

    “Weapons that any member of his team can use.”
    How many weapons does Boba have?

    “How is Chief going to even touch him?”
    With his guns.

    “people with everything from flashbangs to alien guns one of which has taken on superhuman zombie assassins with the agility of nightwing in his batherobe.”
    If Michael gets his hands on them they lose to his super strength. The alien guns are not standard equipment.

  92. Warlock Lowk December 19, 2014 at 3:43 pm -      #192

    Explosive-rang knocks back Superman
    i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll223/darknight2k/Strategy-Tactics/Solo%20Battles/batmansuperman1-batmanvsuperman6.jpg
    For a comparison. It took an rpg straight to the chest to knock him back and floor him like that when he was still in his early development.
    And to note, he was just carrying this around, he didn’t even know superman at the time

    Also found out his guantlets have more then just smoke rockets. They fire regular ol’rockets to.
    i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll223/darknight2k/Standard%20Advanced%20Prep%20Time/batmantwoface28-batgloverocket1.jpg
    i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll223/darknight2k/Standard%20Advanced%20Prep%20Time/batmantwoface28-batgloverocket2.jpg

  93. Warlock Lowk December 19, 2014 at 3:56 pm -      #193

    “If Michael gets his hands on them they lose to his super strength.”

    “If” and nevermind that Batman has taken on, taken hits from, and beaten superhumans before. How strong exactly is Michael, what are some of his feat?
    ===
    “The alien guns are not standard equipment.”

    He said about a guy who uses alien sniper rifle to kill a guy. But I was talking about boba’s weapons.
    to answer the other question, at least four. Blasters, the rocket on his jet pack, and the rifle.
    Though if it’s EU he’s also got wrist lasers.
    ===
    “With his guns.”

    Isn’t mandalorian armor still highly durable. Or has that changed?

  94. The Terror December 19, 2014 at 3:59 pm -      #194

    What was Superman’s durability at the time? Also I can’t see Photobucket.

  95. Warlock Lowk December 19, 2014 at 4:04 pm -      #195

    “What was Superman’s durability at the time?”

    Laughs off bullets and explosive rounds. Rpgs hurt but he can get right back up afterwards. The rang hit him like the rpg did.

  96. The Terror December 19, 2014 at 4:11 pm -      #196

    syfy-dominion.wikia.com/wiki/Michael#Powers_.26_Abilities
    syfy-dominion.wikia.com/wiki/Archangel

    “Blasters, the rocket on his jet pack, and the rifle.
    Though if it’s EU he’s also got wrist lasers.”
    How strong are they?

    “Isn’t mandalorian armor still highly durable. Or has that changed?”
    I don’t know how strong it is.

  97. sadot06 December 19, 2014 at 4:27 pm -      #197

    “Just saw it. They said if he goes any faster they are going to lose him indicating that they were not capable of traveling faster aka as fast as they can go. Which mean that he’s going at the top speed of a aircraft capable of hitting mach 4.”

    I already addressed in my post to rag how inconclusive that is without context.

  98. sadot06 December 19, 2014 at 4:30 pm -      #198

    ““If” and nevermind that Batman has taken on, taken hits from, and beaten superhumans before. How strong exactly is Michael, what are some of his feat?”

    Batman’s showings are drenched in PIS. As far as Michael’s strength, the most I recall him doing is backhanding an adult about 15 feet. As for his skills, he’s been alive since the Earth was created and is credited with being the great flood that the bible spoke of to punish humanity.

  99. Warlock Lowk December 19, 2014 at 5:23 pm -      #199

    “I already addressed in my post to rag how inconclusive that is without context.”

    Doesn’t really matter the circumstance they state they will lose him if he goes faster. That point it’s pretty clear they can’t go any faster and he is maintaining speed enough to keep distance. How is that inconclusive? If they could travel any faster then that they wouldn’t have even mentioned that they might lose him.
    ===
    “Batman’s showings are drenched in PIS.”

    Yup, I am now officially as tired of this statement as I am of the batprep wank.
    -The man wears armor that might as well be a basis for an powered exoskeleton(It eventually does get turned into a full on exoskeleton). That’s what allow him to survive the hits he takes.
    -He has shown and even noted as being able to dodge bullets and has even managed to block them with his wrist armor.
    -He is skilled enough to take on a guy that has a few centuries of combat experience.
    -He has multiple showings of endurance and stamina that might make John Mcclain feel inadequate.
    -He carries around explosives, rocket, and lasers just cuz in case of something.
    -He fought and subdued a lion in the back of car using some rope.
    -Nevermind he comes from a world were people can train in techniques that can beat immortals, summon energy appendages, and dodge bullets(Special mention cassandra). How is him doing ridculous stuff slightly over what human should be capable of any different when he himself has had exotic training as the people who have done stuff like that?
    Bats has shown multiple times that he is able to combat street level superhuman time and time again. He does it though skill, his gear, and bullshit physical stats. That’s not PIS that just his range of ability, it’s what he consistently does. He has everything he needs to overcome that stuff.
    Anything well over, he normally gets his ass handed to him and needs either help, prep, or plot. Superhumans that can survive a fall off a skyscraper and punch dents in safe doors, that do able. Claymonster that can survive a base exploding, yeah he’s going to need some special help but that do able. Superman level foes, yeah I’m just the distraction thanks for underestimating me though; thats PIS.

  100. Friendlysociopath December 19, 2014 at 5:59 pm -      #200

    Archangel is capable of mach speed, that’s an easy qualifier due to Quicksilver’s chase plus the jet scene. However, he doesn’t appear to fight at mach speed if Hawkeye can not only keep up with him- he looked like he was winning. And flying in a straight line for the flag isn’t going to work in this scenario.

    Batman has toys and he’s bullshit good at holding his own against superior opponents, that part I do not disagree with. However, he easily has 30 different things he’s pulled out of his a- *ahem* utility belt, he can’t have them all.

    But moving past that, Fett beat MC here, but MC is tremendously gimped in weaponry.
    I don’t know how effective Mandalorian armor is against guns, but MC’s guns were made to penetrate armor and shields, so I’m giving him the benefit of a doubt that his guns will work- and if they don’t, MC is a capable enough shot to shoot where Fett’s armor doesn’t cover. I don’t know how maneuverable Fett is with the jetback, but being in the jungle will reduce his mobility by a lot. Not to mention if someone can get behind him we’ve all seen how good Fett’s jetpack is at taking damage.

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