Macross Vs Star Trek

Macross Vs Star Trek

Suggested by Sauroposeidon

Macross as a whole has very little in the way of matches, so lets throw them up against another classic who’s human faction is primarily interested in space exploration as well. Star Trek.

Thousands of wormholes crop up through out the two galaxies of both, and the two galaxies are informed at once that only one may survive. Immigration is not allowed. They must battle for supremacy or face destruction. Who would do such a devious thing? Why the Q continuum, who have realized that the two universes are rubbing against each other where the Milkyway Galaxy is, like a fault line, and only war, for reasons only they know, will stop the “Universe quake” that would destroy both, and ultimately the Q themselves as well.

Of course, Q himself intends to reset everything as it was once this tension is released.. but he’ll enjoy some popcorn in the mean time, watching everybody live up to their barbarian blood as he always knew they would. It’s not like he’d ever let his precious Picard ever actually perish for real, nor his personal favorite band.. which just so happens to be Fire Bomber. Go figure.

The rules are simple. Each side’s internal factions cease fighting each other immediately and focus on the new enemy. They retain their character, their ideals, their dreams, their nature, ect, ect. Things they would not ordinarily do they will not do (such as everyone becoming part of the borg collective, or giving them whole systems just to replenish their numbers, or everyone macro-sizing themselves with zentradi tech just to be bigger than their enemies in ground combat).

Tech may not be stolen or reverse engineered, although trading may occur, the war begins immediately, so R&D has to work realistically and they do not get prep time to make different technologies work together that ordinarily might have trouble.

Victory is achieved through normal means, getting the enemy government to completely collapse or surrender. Those who try to cheat the system by just surrendering to avoid war or whatever find their homes destroyed by the Q to release the appropriate “Devastation Energies” to make up for it.

Let the war begin!

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33 Comments on "Macross Vs Star Trek"

  1. Rookie November 30, 2014 at 6:32 am -      #1

    I thinl that Macross can win here.

  2. LadyRamkin November 30, 2014 at 9:33 am -      #2

    “Tech may not be stolen or reverse engineered, although trading may occur”

    As in trade between the combatants?

  3. Friendlysociopath November 30, 2014 at 9:39 am -      #3

    “As in trade between the combatants?”

    I would assume he meant between factions on the same side, since he went out of his way to say they act normally.

  4. Sauroposeidon November 30, 2014 at 4:06 pm -      #4

    Yes, between factions is allowable, with in their character.

  5. Darth Bombad November 30, 2014 at 7:50 pm -      #5

    @Saruoposeidon Now that’s how you word a match! way to go Saruo.

    I don’t know much about Macross so i’ll just take a wait and see approach for now.
    P.S. Come on guys this is one of the better matches of late, and it gets no comments?.

  6. Aelfinn November 30, 2014 at 8:28 pm -      #6

    So by “no one can steal tech” does that mean the Borg can’t? Because that’s kind of their thing. They assimilate tech all the time. This is probably me just misinterpreting it, though.
    =
    Anyway, I don’t know much of what Macross is capable of. So long as it’s not too far above Star Trek, the Borg should be able to assimilate many of the advantages that Macross may have, whether it’s travel speeds, weapons, shields, etc. Their ability to effectively become immune to enemy weapons would likely be a major pain in the ass.

    There’s also, as you likely know, Species 8472, which does the whole “blow up a planet” thing really well.

    Star Trek also has Trilithium missiles which can blow up stars and the surrounding system, along with the Genesis Device, which would life-wipe a planet (and then fill it with different life).
    =
    I’m rather ignorant at just what Macross can do, however.

  7. Sauroposeidon November 30, 2014 at 9:05 pm -      #7

    “They assimilate tech all the time.”

    They can adapt as need be, but I see a lot of matches become “Well they’ll just grab X tech from the enemy and use it against them!” Which is a legitimate argument. It happens in real wars.. however it becomes an unneeded back and forth between those who say it can happen and those who say it can’t. I’ve been in one myself. So I preemptively removed it as a factor.

    “I’m rather ignorant at just what Macross can do, however.”

    I’m sure somebody can educate you.

  8. shurikan December 2, 2014 at 7:25 am -      #8

    Can somebody please give us some feats for the Macross? Most of us know Star Trek.

  9. Shgon Dunstan December 2, 2014 at 8:29 am -      #9

    @Sauroposeidon
    “They can adapt as need be, but I see a lot of matches become “Well they’ll just grab X tech from the enemy and use it against them!” Which is a legitimate argument. It happens in real wars.. however it becomes an unneeded back and forth between those who say it can happen and those who say it can’t. I’ve been in one myself. So I preemptively removed it as a factor.”

    That… Is a REALLY cheap thing to do to the Borg in a Vs. 😕

    Like Aelfinn said, it and adapting are kind of their “thing”. To take that out, is tantamount to saying “well, I know these guys couldn’t take them in a REAL fight, but what about if I nurfed them a lot?”.

    I don’t even know enough about Macross to say whether that’s even true in the first place, but is a dick move ether way.

  10. Shgon Dunstan December 2, 2014 at 8:39 am -      #10

    Off the top of my head… All I can remember about Macross, is that their fleets are huge, they spam missiles likes crazy, and, IIRC, they’ve got some kind of dimensional BFR warhead…

    Though… I seem to remember hearing that habitable worlds are rare in their universe(like “a handful” rare). If that’s the case, Species 8472 could do a LOT of damage without Macross being able to do much about it.

  11. Rookie December 2, 2014 at 12:06 pm -      #11

    @shurikan

    “Can somebody please give us some feats for the Macross? Most of us know Star Trek.”

    Sure. Here some feats: forums.spacebattles.com/threads/macross-feats-and-calcs-thread.270570/

    @Sauroposeidon

    Can I ask you for your help? I want to suggest some mecha match, with three MPB from Bolo against some mecha. Here’s feats for MPB: forums.spacebattles.com/threads/three-mobile-planetary-bastions-bolo-runs-a-gauntlent.318767/
    I was thinking about something from Warhammer 40 000… but I don’t want to make another of my stomp matches, so if you have any ideas about who could be good opponent/opponents and if you have time to look at feats please tell.

  12. Sauroposeidon December 2, 2014 at 3:50 pm -      #12

    “Like Aelfinn said, it and adapting are kind of their “thing”. ”

    It is also the “thing” of the Macross humans to reverse engineer any tech they happen to like, and then expand it very quickly. I’m not having that. I will not comment further on this subject.

    “with three MPB from Bolo”

    Anything from Bolo tends to be obnoxiously dangerous in a land fight against anything that can’t dodge.

    “Off the top of my head… All I can remember about Macross, is that their fleets are huge, they spam missiles likes crazy, and, IIRC, they’ve got some kind of dimensional BFR warhead…”

    Zentradi use huge fleets. The humans don’t.Their fleets are more realistic in size, usually.

    Zentradi use fleets consisting of millions of ships, although they may often be in disrepair.

    Their FTL is faster, usually, but also more restricted. In the case of the old Zentradi ships, using their FTL drives can leave them drained for a time, rending anything with a reflex cannon unable to fire it for an extended period of time.

    Vajra FTL is the most advanced. They can go anywhere the want in the galaxy instantly. This may have to do with the fact that they are an inter-galactic race, requiring extremely long distances to be traveled for breeding purposes.

    There is/was inter-dimensional travel tech as well, but I don’t believe anyone currently uses it. I don’t recall if they opened a portal to the proto-devlin’s dimension or the other way around.. but it didn’t go well for anybody. Macross 7 is not what I would consider a good show and the events concerning them take place in that show, so…yeah. If someone else wants to go over that, feel free.

    Habitable planets are “realistically rare.” They haven’t mapped their own galaxy yet and are still exploring it. I would say there’s far fewer than there are in Star Trek. The Vajra seem to enjoy being on planets, but tend to live in space.

    Their BFR weapon is the Dimension Eater Warhead, which uses a fold space fault to wormhole/blackhole you in to being dead. Tactical models have something like a 50km blast radius. Larger models have created a planet sized one. Beneath that they have their reaction warheads,which are more standard nuclear missiles of sorts, which range in yield as well.

  13. Shgon Dunstan December 3, 2014 at 7:53 am -      #13

    “It is also the “thing” of the Macross humans to reverse engineer any tech they happen to like, and then expand it very quickly.”

    Then you should let them do so as well. 😕

    Also… I’d point out, while you still have time to fix it mind, that you seem to of forgotten to put any form of “no gods” in the OP. Hell, it doesn’t even actually say that any of the Q save Q himself decide to set the match out…

    If that was intentional, then I hope for it’s sake that Macross has some nice ones. 😆

  14. Sauroposeidon December 3, 2014 at 9:39 am -      #14

    “Hell, it doesn’t even actually say that any of the Q save Q himself decide to set the match out…”

    Don’t play word games, Shgon. You know you’ll lose. You know exactly what I meant and attempts to squeeze through loop holes with just get my eyes rolled at you.

  15. Shgon Dunstan December 3, 2014 at 11:10 am -      #15

    Oh get the fuck over yourself. If I was wanting to “play word games” I wouldn’t of even brought it up until after post 50. As is, I was trying to give you the heads up so that you could simply close said “loop holes”… Or you know, you could simply bitch at me to make yourself feel good, and then ST’s god-lings can just eradacate Macross from existence… :roll:

    Your the OP, and we’re still only on post 15 or so, so it’s your call.

  16. Sauroposeidon December 3, 2014 at 1:06 pm -      #16

    ” Or you know, you could simply bitch at me to make yourself feel good”

    I’ll take that option. Seems the most civil, after all.

  17. Shgon Dunstan December 3, 2014 at 1:29 pm -      #17

    So… ST stomps?

  18. Aelfinn December 3, 2014 at 2:44 pm -      #18

    “It is also the “thing” of the Macross humans to reverse engineer any tech they happen to like, and then expand it very quickly. I’m not having that. I will not comment further on this subject.”

    But the Borg have a technology that actively allows them to do so: the nanoprobes. They not only assimilate people and all their memories (which means if you assimilate enough engineers, you would have the knowledge required to replicate the tech), but they can also inject the nanoprobes directly into the ship itself. They’ve done it to all manner of alien tech, regardless of wacky operating systems or language or technology. It’s not just their “thing”, they do it on a consistent basis to whatever they run into. It’s not like they get really lucky and reverse engineer some critical piece of alien tech semi-consistently; they steal and incorporate new technology Collective-wide if they think they like it whenever they run into the new technology.

  19. Sauroposeidon December 3, 2014 at 5:31 pm -      #19

    “But the Borg”

    I don’t care. If I allow reverse engineering each side’s tech this just becomes Macross & Star Trek vs Macros & Star Trek.

    Taking over a ship is not the same as stealing their tech as well.

    It’s also not that major of a plot point for the borg as far as taking over ships is concerns. I’ve seen all of TNG, all the movies, and I’m almost through with DS9 now. I can’t recall ever seeing them actually do that. Granted they don’t show up very often, but you’d think it might be a major issue when they do. Especially when they were on the Enterprise.

    So disallowing reverse engineering isn’t going to be a major obstacle for this match. Especially considering all the other races like the Voth, the Undine, the Iconians,and so on who are all much more powerful than the borg and do just fine with out such tricks.

  20. Aelfinn December 3, 2014 at 9:56 pm -      #20

    “I don’t care. ”

    You don’t care that you’re randomly taking out the main characteristic of a faction? That’s like saying “T-Rex vs Stegosaurus, but the T-Rex can’t use its teeth.”
    =
    “If I allow reverse engineering each side’s tech this just becomes Macross & Star Trek vs Macros & Star Trek.”

    Then you made a poor match.
    =
    “I can’t recall ever seeing them actually do that. Granted they don’t show up very often, but you’d think it might be a major issue when they do. Especially when they were on the Enterprise.”

    They do it in Star Trek Enterprise and in First Contact.

  21. Sauroposeidon December 4, 2014 at 7:58 am -      #21

    “You don’t care that you’re randomly taking out the main characteristic of a faction? That’s like saying “T-Rex vs Stegosaurus, but the T-Rex can’t use its teeth.”

    Because it’s also a primary characteristic of another faction in Macross. This isn’t like saying that at all. It’s more like saying two The Things fighting each other. One begins with a stegosaurus and the other begins as a t-rex, but there are other rexes and stegos available for them to absorb so it doesn’t matter. You may think that it’s a poor match and that’s fine but some matches need certain rules like this in order to keep it a “which would win based on what they individually bring to the table?” fight. If it makes it any easier for you, assume the Q are doing this in order to make it more entertaining to themselves.

    “They do it in Star Trek Enterprise and in First Contact.”

    Haven’t seen that episode of Enterprise apparently. I don’t remember them just randomly assimilating ships and stealing all their tech in FC. Just adapting to it very quickly. That was where they introduced their super fast adapting, wasn’t it? Previously it seems to me that they were just extremely difficult to take down due to their non-centralized nature and self-healing abilities.

  22. Shgon Dunstan December 4, 2014 at 9:30 am -      #22

    Another problem with this matches nurfing of the Borg, is… It’s basically disallowing them from even renewing their numbers.

    The OP says that all the ST factions work together, but that no one will willingly join the Borg… Which given their not allowed to assimilate the enemy ether, kind of leaves them without a source of new drones. 😕

    …Oh, here’s a thought. Species 8472 cells consume rather then assimilate. The Borg, or hell Voyager all by itself, could whip up some nano probes programed to carry said cells, and the Borg could set them up with that airborne nano probe idea they were thinking of using on earth. 😆

    It was said to take a lot longer to assimilate that way then the Borg’s normal method, but even a few Species 8472 cells can quickly take over a human.

    Giant Species 8472… Fun. 😛

  23. Sauroposeidon December 4, 2014 at 12:40 pm -      #23

    “Another problem with this matches nurfing of the Borg, is… It’s basically disallowing them from even renewing their numbers.”

    That’s no where in the rules.

    “Which given their not allowed to assimilate the enemy ether”

    That’s not in the rules either…

  24. Dassadec December 7, 2014 at 1:54 am -      #24

    Bsically, Borg are not allowed to assimilate Fold tech eh?

    I love me some Macross, but the Vajra are the only rthing keeping them in this fight, and that’s if we leave out races like OOcompans, Q and the Douwd and every other cosmic level beings.

    Macross has much faster FTL via the Fold drives as a whole, but Trek does have some comparable tech with some factions. For Example:

    Coaxial Warp Drive from Voyager, Tom Paris helps an alien fix a warp core that for all intents and purposes IS a Fold drive

    Borg Transwarp is probably as fast or faster than Folds based on 1/2 galaxy distances in minutes vs weeks in Zentraedi fold.

    Hirogen and the Saurosapiens have Speed comparable to Borg Transwarp as well.

    Trek also has the means of infiltrating RDF upper command structure. Via shapeshifting races like in the Dominion war. Or 8472 themselves. less than a year and they had replicated Starfleet HQ and the inhabitants perfectly.

    Macross side will definitely have the raw firepower advantage(With a few exceptions) and huge engagement ranges. A good thing for them their Fighters are unlike anything in Trek and give the Macros side a HUGE offensive boost when you consider that most of those fighters can easily be equipped with DE warheads.

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gX7S8rUfnA

    As Sauro said, those are weaponized at a 50km raduis and loaded 4 at a time on a Valkyrie

    That being said, the UN Spacy doesn’t really have much for raw numbers. Most of The Macross side’s numbers Zentraedi who’s tech is way below UNspacy.

    PS good to be back on the pile!

  25. Sauroposeidon December 7, 2014 at 2:20 am -      #25

    As a side note, I think they use Nightmares now, not Valkyries.

    NUNS was a match for the Vajra under Grace’s control.

    I thought Zentradi FTL was a little slower than standard trek FTL?

    While as of STO the Undine seem to be able to infiltrate with out challenge, a number of screens were developed and successfully used against the Dominion Founders.

    There are some powerful demi-god races in trek, but they’re generally virtually unknowable. So I don’t usually worry about them in debates. Similar are the proto-deviln, and all that spirita nonsense in Macross 7.

    I did not expressly forbid all that psionic space magic nonsense for those that want to discuss it.. but I probably won’t be partaking in that end of the discussion.

  26. Aelfinn December 7, 2014 at 2:49 am -      #26

    “Because it’s also a primary characteristic of another faction in Macross.”

    Being really good at reverse engineering is vastly different than what the Borg do, but whatever, it doesn’t seem like you’ll budge on this.
    =
    “Macross side will definitely have the raw firepower advantage”

    You really think so? I was looking through the Macross respect thread earlier, and the only impressive thing I noticed was that big purple-black sphere. No other weapon really seemed to pack as large a punch, and that one really big sphere seemed to be a special event.
    =
    “PS good to be back on the pile!”

    It’s good to see you back.

  27. Dassadec December 7, 2014 at 3:53 am -      #27

    “You really think so? I was looking through the Macross respect thread earlier, and the only impressive thing I noticed was that big purple-black sphere. No other weapon really seemed to pack as large a punch, and that one really big sphere seemed to be a special event.”

    For the most part, yeah. At least capital ship main Guns seem to be > Phasers and Macross Reflex Warheads generally pack a bigger punch than a standard Photon torpedo.(1st Gen reflex warheads fired from Valkyries were obliterating 400m class Zentraedi vessels)

    The DE warhead in the video was the test for that tech. later it was weaponized to the Valkyrie armament in the 50km blast radius level. There is no reason to believe that they can’t easily re-create the large scale version. Though size doesn’t matter so much with the Destructive capacity and the way it works.

    “As a side note, I think they use Nightmares now, not Valkyries.”

    Isnt that Code Geass?

    “I did not expressly forbid all that psionic space magic nonsense for those that want to discuss it.. but I probably won’t be partaking in that end of the discussion.”

    You should probably bar The Traveller,and The Douwd at least unless you want the trek side to have instant FTL and a race of beings near Q levels of power capable of wiping a entire race out, including their planets and ships simultaneously

  28. Sauroposeidon December 7, 2014 at 8:59 am -      #28

    “Being really good at reverse engineering is vastly different than what the Borg do, but whatever, it doesn’t seem like you’ll budge on this.”

    It is but that doesn’t change an end result. Worse yet, we can’t even quantify the Macross side on theirs, really, because it always happens off screen. It’d be a pointlessly cyclic debate over who would tech advance faster with no real end.

    “You really think so?”

    I would agree, but all the really impressive Macross weapons can only be used once in a fight. They’re either ammunition dependent or take forever to charge up and drain the vessel upon use. At least on the Humanoid side of things.

    One proto-deviln seems to have the ability to fire a gun more powerful than Battle 7’s Macross Cannon pretty much whenever it wants… but they left the galaxy as mentioned before, to explore the universe…

    Vajra seem to have the ability to fight with massively more fire power but they don’t usually amass their really powerful units, and much like the Borg will usually fight with only a couple of ships at best.. or did until they were taken over by Grace. Then they began using human tactics of fighting with huge numbers.

    Is there anything left of the original Supervision Amy or did the Zentradi wipe out all but sliver remnants of them? I skipped a big chunk of Macross 7 so I don’t recall if the old Supervision Army joined the new Varuta fleet or what. And whatever happened to that new Varuta fleet? Did they get wiped our or were they returned to the humans?

    Also.. this..

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=Slqa30DSSKE

    There’s a reason why Macross Quarter is my favorite sci-fi ship.. besides the cool captain.. but watching Macross Galaxy get punched in half by Battle Frontier and stealing Quarter’s thunder is probably the coolest moment on the show.

    As a side note. Battle Frontier is never depicted firing its cannon and having the same effect as Battle 7’s does, even though they’re virtually the same ship, and Macross Galaxy is of a similar design and it has been depicted firing its gun to the same scope as Battle 7. Should it be assumed to be CiS that Battle Frontier’s captain is too impatient to let the weapon fully charge?

  29. Sauroposeidon December 7, 2014 at 9:06 am -      #29

    “Isnt that Code Geass?”

    No, those are knightmare frames. The Valkyries in Macross were early generation models. By the time of Frontier and Macross 7, the primary variable fighter is the Nightmare. It looks kinda like a mix between a tomcat and a nighthawk as far as real life planes go. Which I guess makes sense, seeing as the Valkyies resemble tomcats. The Messiah and Lucifer are both better but I presume more expensive.

    “You should probably bar The Traveller,and The Douwd at least unless you want the trek side to have instant FTL and a race of beings near Q levels of power capable of wiping a entire race out, including their planets and ships simultaneously”

    I don’t see any problem with allowing the Traveler. The Vajra have instant FTL too after all.

    The Douwd are odd. I would wonder if characters with anima spirita could resist them with sound ener- aaand I’m getting in to the space magic stuff again.

    That aspect is for you and who ever else wants to cover it. I’m not going to dwell on that stuff. I didn’t originally even intend to participate in the debate.

  30. Sauroposeidon December 7, 2014 at 9:42 am -      #30

    As a side note, I am willing to permit stuff from STO.

    This would give Star Trek a glut of carriers with which to provide fighter screens, although Macross fighters seem superior.

    Virtually every faction gets at least one though. The Breen, the Klingons, Starfleet, The Dominion, The Voth, Both Romulan factions, The Orion Syndicate, many of the Iconian owned factions as we can see with the Fek’Ihri and the old Obelisk carriers, and even the Tholians get the Recluse.

  31. Dassadec December 7, 2014 at 5:54 pm -      #31

    “No, those are knightmare frames. The Valkyries in Macross were early generation models. By the time of Frontier and Macross 7, the primary variable fighter is the Nightmare.”

    hmm interesting, I tend to call any Variable Fighter a Valkyrie lol good to know though.

  32. Namer December 9, 2014 at 2:28 am -      #32

    I don’t see what the big deal with the Borg not being allowed to steal Macross tech is. Every match that involves the Borg basically goes “Borg steals enemy tech, Borg use it to counter any advantages the enemy might have, and then the Borg roll them over”. Yes, it might be the Borg MO and a important aspect of them, but Sauro clearly want to avoid this argument, because its cheap and doesn’t make for good debate.
    .
    The best compromise: The Borg can assimilate the people, and learn about the tech, devise countermeasures, but they can’t use the tech actively.

  33. Murder December 21, 2014 at 1:37 am -      #33

    The Borg are dangerous enough without their assimilation abilities. Their ships 3Km square ships that are numbered in the millions with trillions of drones, weapons that assimilate (turning organics into drones, not stealing tech) entire solar systems, weapons that destroy entire solar systems, and transwarp technology that allow them to cross the galaxy in a seconds and that whole time traveling thing… I agree that nerfing them is the only fair solution.

    How do these Macross factions fare against reality warpers like the They who create universes, the Organians who can recreate reality how they please or the Douwd who… you know what I’m not doing this. Star Trek has too much on the all powerful side for a straight out fight. Can we please specify what species of ST’s 60’s years are involved?

    Right now, I think the Borg and Xindi alone should be enough to counter any multi-galaxy faction outside of galaxy busters and reality warpers.

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