Siege of Hogwarts

Siege of Hogwarts

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There are 2 teams for this match. Team 1 is inside of Hogwarts and defending it from Team 2 Hogwarts is fully staffed with staff and students who can attempt to aid in the defense. Team 2’s sole goal is too kill all members of Team 1, but they will not hesitate to kill the staff or students should they get in the way. The teams are:

Team 1
1. Dante (Devil May Cry)
2. Ryu Hayabusa (Ninja Gaiden)
3. Skulduggery Pleasant (Skulduggery Pleasant)
4. Lancer (Fate/Stay Night)
5. Harry Dresden (Dresden Files)
6. Sephiroth (Final Fantasy)
7. Abel Nightroad (Trinity Blood)
8. Jiro Mochizuki (Black Blood Brothers)
9. Coyote Starrk (Bleach)
10. Kratos (God of War)

Team 2
1. Berzerker (Fate/Stay Night)
2. Alucard (Hellsing)
3. Kenpachi (Bleach)
4. Kharn The Betrayer (Warhammer 40K)
5. Kakashi (Naruto)
6. Inuyasha (Inuyasha)
7. Blackbeard (One Piece)
8. Sora (Kingdom Hearts)
9. Yusuke Urameshi (Yu Yu Hakusho)
10. Kain (Legacy of Kain)

Both sides know their team members’ powers and abilities well, and have a rough knowledge of their opponents powers. Team 2 also has knowledge of the castle’s interior layout.

Will the defenders survive or be conquered and killed?

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225 Comments on "Siege of Hogwarts"

  1. Amm0vamp1r3 November 8, 2014 at 1:44 pm -      #101

    “I think that was a visual thing for players, in the storyline he drinks from the Hylden witch and the builder and gains their qualities just by drinking. Kain was never a “soul eater” himself. ”

    I think its he does that to gain powers that he never had, I mean he does that to every vampire in the game to get something new.

    as for the Seer, he drank her blood to gain enhanced TK, which was effectively showing how the lore bar works. Drinking Blood = enhancing power

    “I see, he also seems to be a part of it, as if hes stretched himself out to collect the blood rather than calling iit by itself through TK like kain does. ”

    That’s just the light hitting the blood making it change colors. You can tell the difference between Alucard and Blood, blood stays red as opposed to Alucard which you can see in rookies post #25 is orange and black

    Alucard is strictly using TK to pull that blood to him

  2. wingedlion November 8, 2014 at 1:52 pm -      #102

    @kitten
    I don’t see a vid at post#32.

  3. Amm0vamp1r3 November 8, 2014 at 1:58 pm -      #103

    As for Jiro controlling him, I doubt it his control seems to be purely physical.

  4. Kitten Lord November 8, 2014 at 2:05 pm -      #104

    @Ammo

    “which was effectively showing how the lore bar works.”

    Vampire lore was not mentioned there, it was already explained a lot earlier, in the slums. Him drinking from the seer just shows us he gains powers by drinking blood, even from entities that are not vampires. Which is also covered in the manuel. Like I said that weird ritual thing that looks like hes eating a soul just seems to be a player benefit to show you your gaining its power.

    If Kain could eat souls, that would make no sense in the game.

    “That’s just the light hitting the blood making it change colors. ”

    It just looks like his energy to me, the same stuff you see when he fights Anderson. Maybe it was just to show it was under his power, who knows. In any case, he dare not do anything like that here lest he gain a soul and end up disappearing.

    @Wing

    “I don’t see a vid at post#32.”

    My bad, 92.

  5. wingedlion November 8, 2014 at 2:17 pm -      #105

    @Kitten
    I saw it. i’m still not sure what magic hue your talking about.
    Regardless, in post 93 at 6:49, we can see the blood on the walls and streets start to move towards where Alucard is. Furthermore, in 6:56 we see blood burst out of one of the impaled soldiers and also start to move towards Alucard. So yeah, he was using TK to drain blood.

  6. Amm0vamp1r3 November 8, 2014 at 2:21 pm -      #106

    “Vampire lore was not mentioned there, it was already explained a lot earlier, in the slums.”

    I know they explained how the lore bar work. I was making the comparison that when he drinks blood he gains lore, and gaining lore he gains power. Which is basically what he did with the Seer.

    “Him drinking from the seer just shows us he gains powers by drinking blood, even from entities that are not vampires”

    He gains power not different powers. Draining the Seer boosted his TK but it didn’t give him any different powers. While doing that ritual which gives him different powers

    “Which is also covered in the manuel”

    gotta scan?

    ” Like I said that weird ritual thing that looks like hes eating a soul just seems to be a player benefit to show you your gaining its power.”

    It LOOKS like he hes eating a soul but doesn’t mean he is. That could very well be him snatching a dark gift from a vampire. Which is the only time he uses the ritual, against dead vampires

    “If Kain could eat souls, that would make no sense in the game. ”

    Its never said it was a soul though

    “It just looks like his energy to me, the same stuff you see when he fights Anderson. Maybe it was just to show it was under his power, who knows. In any case, he dare not do anything like that here lest he gain a soul and end up disappearing.”

    Well I can see the difference, in the colors. Even all the times he fought Anderson the blood looked different from Alucards shadow matter. And you can tell because that isn’t the first time he TK’d blood into himself

    22:55

  7. Kitten Lord November 8, 2014 at 2:34 pm -      #107

    @Ammo

    “Which is basically what he did with the Seer.”

    Not sure the lore has ever been a comparison to him gaining new powers. He gains “strength” and “health” in-game. Thats about it, the Seer specfically tells him her power and that he needs to drink form her to gain it. Its not a generic thing here.

    “Draining the Seer boosted his TK but it didn’t give him any different powers.”

    He never had TK before, thats the point. hence why he had to drink from her, if he just gained it by virtue of “lore” he could have gained it earlier, since he gains lore from everyone he drinks from, from peasant, guard or hylden.

    “gotta scan?”

    I dont have a scanner, dont you have the game yourself? Thought you did, page 12 of the LoK BO 2 manual.

    “Which is the only time he uses the ritual, against dead vampires”

    So he only needs the ritual against dead vampires, and their dark gifts, nobody else based on that, if its true.

    “Its never said it was a soul though”

    No it never really said anything, that was leadingmans interpretation. Other people seem to think it just represents Kain gaining the consciousness of the vampire in question, and his knowledge of the gift via the blood.

    “Well I can see the difference, in the colors. Even all the times he fought Anderson the blood looked different from Alucards shadow matter. And you can tell because that isn’t the first time he TK’d blood into himself”

    Illl drop it , we will have to agree to disagree, its irrelevant anyway. It just looks weird to me, not normal. Also, the scene with Schroding has him apparently falling directly into the blood, we dont see the blood that splatters on the wall from him removing his head following into the pool.

    Theres also blood on the windows as the city view pans out, suggesting that Alucard is either having to target individual amounts himself or some blood is just not acquired in the process.

    Also, if it was not held in his influence like I interpret, why does it all disappear when he does?

  8. Amm0vamp1r3 November 8, 2014 at 2:54 pm -      #108

    “Not sure the lore has ever been a comparison to him gaining new powers. He gains “strength” and “health” in-game. Thats about it, the Seer specfically tells him her power and that he needs to drink form her to gain it. Its not a generic thing here. ”

    I know lore was a boost in power (health and strength etc) but not new powers(the ritual).

    “He never had TK before, thats the point. hence why he had to drink from her, if he just gained it by virtue of “lore” he could have gained it earlier, since he gains lore from everyone he drinks from, from peasant, guard or hylden.”

    Yes he did, how he picked up weapons he used TK, the seer even says it 8:58

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1AIitGoJBM

    And again im sayin Lore/drinking blood boost power, his already innate power, that’s pretty much a common thing among vampires in general

    doing the ritual gives him NEW powers. Like he does against the other vampires

    “I dont have a scanner, dont you have the game yourself? Thought you did, page 12 of the LoK BO 2 manual.

    Sadly no, I was thinking of getting it off of steam, but as of now I have BO 1 and SR1 everything else is me looking at Youtube

    “So he only needs the ritual against dead vampires, and their dark gifts, nobody else based on that, if its true. ”

    Well that’s how I see it because that’s the only time he uses it. And all the evidence points to him stealing Dark gifts

    “No it never really said anything, that was leadingmans interpretation. Other people seem to think it just represents Kain gaining the consciousness of the vampire in question, and his knowledge of the gift via the blood. ”

    But he never drinks the dead vampires blood and the ritual is the only thing he does pulling what ever that is into him

    “Also, the scene with Schroding has him apparently falling directly into the blood, we dont see the blood that splatters on the wall from him removing his head following into the pool. ”
    “Theres also blood on the windows as the city view pans out, suggesting that Alucard is either having to target individual amounts himself or some blood is just not acquired in the process.”

    After he’s done the place looks absolutely spotless of blood from what I can see. When schrodinger cut his head off and fell the blood splattered behind him we didn’t see again but nothing suggest it didn’t all get pulled to Alucard

    “Also, if it was not held in his influence like I interpret, why does it all disappear when he does?”

    Because he pulled it all into himself, then was turned into nothingness besides his blood seal on that piece of ground

  9. Kitten Lord November 8, 2014 at 3:17 pm -      #109

    @Ammo

    “Yes he did, how he picked up weapons he used TK, the seer even says it 8:58″

    She says;

    “I give you the gift of telekinesis”

    She mentions ohw he could pick up weapons and move objects in contact, but that was not the same power. She says she gives it to him, not bolsters something he already has.

    “But he never drinks the dead vampires blood and the ritual is the only thing he does pulling what ever that is into him”

    Umah calls it “absorbing their veins” in the game, at the beginning intro. So he must be draining their blood for this statement to be true, as other people have interpreted I think that “spectral” thing is just Kain gaining their consciousness, since he gains thoughts/knowledge from their blood.

    Its more of an out of body experience. Just like how if he drinks blood here, he would gain huge amounts of power from all these people.

    “After he’s done the place looks absolutely spotless of blood from what I can see. ”

    In the background as Schrodinger falls, you can see theres sprays of blood left on the walls near the base of the buildings. Mayb its spray from the river, but then it makes you wonder why it does not re-join it.

    Also earlier on, the blood moves extremely slowly from long range, the rivers and the trickles from the bodies seem like their hardly moving and I wonder if Alucard can claim blood from the living like Kain can? A man at 10:30 or there about denies the blood from coming up to him and survives.

    “Because he pulled it all into himself, then was turned into nothingness besides his blood seal on that piece of ground”

    Are you saying this is implied or shown because I don’t see the “last” of the blood going into him. Infact Schrodinger and his blood fell into the pool in the middle of the river, there was tons more coming from miles around ,especially based on the map in that guys office.

  10. Friendlysociopath November 8, 2014 at 4:30 pm -      #110

    Some feats for Sora:
    Strength
    Mandatory building-buster mention @1:00 in he cuts through 6 buildings in one go


    Takes on Disney Hercules and wins, Hercules admit she wasn’t holding back. This is the same Hercules that throws mountain sized titans into space.

    Is able to take on Sephiroth being not serious (Advent Children levels in other words) and can take Cloud on as well as Squall/Tifa/ and Yuffie. In particular he can block several strikes that are nearly instant


    Is able to knock back this thing @0:35 which is significantly large


    Speed
    Can block bullets as of first game

    @3:25 he cuts off all of the hydra’s heads in an instant


    @1:39 he deflects laser-like projectiles and plays tennis with them via teleportation


    @4:18 blocks a lot of laser-like projectiles coming at him from all angles, although Riku gets half the credit. Later at the end of the video Sora and Riku are able to move and even hand off keyblades in between one of Xemnas’ attacks.


    Also manages to dodge Larxene’s Thundaga attacks, just pointing out that KH lightning comes straight from the sky and clouds so it resembles natural lightning, although I’m sure this isn’t the case

    Magic
    Basic fire, ice, and thunder spells

    Ability to heal allies, as well as remove status ailments via esuna

    Can slow opponents or stop them in time

    Has a barrier that will stop any magic and physical attacks and reflect the damage back at enemies in a spray of light

    Ability to warp opponents to other dimensions

    Most of these magics can also be channeled into his keyblade.

    He also can magically change his clothes to gain additional powers and keyblades. Final Form in particular let’s him levitate and gives him telekinesis.

    Might be able to summon allies to his side, if so he can call Genie, a reality-warper, and Cloud, powerful swordsman- minus materia.

  11. Mea quidem sententia November 8, 2014 at 7:15 pm -      #111

    Kitten Lord Post #62
    This must be trite by now for you, but could you truly say Kain is the most durable here after I have posted in your thread as to why Kain’s durability isn’t what you think it is? Surely you’re ignoring this, or perhaps you have come up with a reply, which you have reserved for yourself? Either way, I’ll post it here.

    On page 5 of your LoK thread, I used Kain’s height and compared it to Raziel’s, working on the idea that Raziel is 193.04 cm., which is equal to 720 pixels in the calculation I did. The tip of Raziel’s claws were taken to be 1 px.

    1 px. / 720 px. gave me 13.8%, which I then multiplied by 193.04 cm. to end up with 0.268111111111113256 cm., or 2.68 mm. I will need to modify my post on Kain’s durability a tad bit in light of this. This has nothing to do with Brinell’s hardness. Raziel’s claws can indent cubes with a hardness of limestone.

    The mass of an adult male’s hand is anywhere between 300 to 400 grams. I went with 300 g. I was going to divide this in thirds, but if I am taking each claw into consideration, then 300 g. is the total I’ll end up with, meaning it’d be pointless to do that in the first place.

    The distance when Raziel strikes at Kain is, from what I guessed, 68.58 cm. (2 ft. 3 in.). The time was 128 milliseconds. Dividing the distance by time, we end up with an average velocity of 5.3578125 m/s (11.98 mi/h). I worked with this as the acceleration as well, since the calculation seemed iffy.

    Using F = ma (we have the mass and acceleration), I ended up with 1.60734375 N. Impulse is average force multiplied by time. This would mean 1.60734375 N * 0.128 s is 0.20574 N s.

  12. Kitten Lord November 8, 2014 at 7:32 pm -      #112

    To be honest I had not even noticed, I have not visited the topia or that thread in a long while. I wont read much into this now, probably tomorrow but you realize that Raziel did still bore through a solid cube of stone with his claws and therefore, whatever pressure or force required to do so which we have calculated 100 times (and is never apparently good enough) still exists?

    Raziel does not hit that block any harder or faster, if less so than he does Kain.

  13. Mea quidem sententia November 8, 2014 at 8:13 pm -      #113

    Well, in the post in your LoK thread, I said that Raziel could still deliver that much force on the cube without that contradicting the cut-scene between Raziel and Kain.

    And I thought you would have checked because I saw you posting in FP. Huh. Usually, when I check FP, I also check the Topia to see if there’s anything new.

  14. Friendlysociopath November 8, 2014 at 10:57 pm -      #114

    So, out of curiosity, does anyone on Team 1 have a way of stopping mountain-busting level attacks from just wiping Hogwarts off the face of the Earth? It states Team 1 starts inside, but being in a fortress doesn’t really help when the enemy can just destroy the fortress. Several members of Team 2 appear to have the feats to just destroy the entire castle.

  15. Kitten Lord November 9, 2014 at 3:56 am -      #115

    @Mea

    “Well, in the post in your LoK thread, I said that Raziel could still deliver that much force on the cube without that contradicting the cut-scene between Raziel and Kain.”

    But theres very little difference between him attacking the cube and him attacking Kain. When hitting the cube he is not angry nor is he leaping into it. So that implies it would actually be a good amount less.

    Is your stance that Raziel attacked the cube with far greater impulse speed and weight somehow than he attacked Kain with? Can you calculate impulse on the block as well?

    Also if I am reading your math correctly, and tbh I dont know anything much on impulse, your saying that Raziel only outputs about less than a quarter of a Newton of force on Kain in his attack?

    So essentially he hits Kain with less force than a child may hit another playfully while in the garden or something? :D , if anything this calc Mea if I am honest seems a step back.

    “And I thought you would have checked because I saw you posting in FP. Huh. Usually, when I check FP, I also check the Topia to see if there’s anything new.”

    I sometimes check the Topia arena to see if theres any new matches people are discussing but thats rare, but I find I check it less and less now, theres not as much movement there as there used to be.

    @Friendly

    “attacks from just wiping Hogwarts off the face of the Earth?”

    Dont forget their mission is not to protect Hogwarts, Team 1 just has to kill Team 2 and vice versa, smashing hogwarts with say, Black beards earthquake power or any other characters blasts is imo wasted time, they may as well be using more single target attacks to deal with the Team.

    I dont think anyone on Team 1 will be killed by falling rubble from a castle in any case, the ones I know like Dante and Kratos have taken far more than that, and both have been in a position where falling architecture has threatened them.

  16. Numinous One November 9, 2014 at 4:27 am -      #116

    “Dont forget their mission is not to protect Hogwarts, Team 1 just has to kill Team 2 and vice versa, smashing hogwarts with say, Black beards earthquake power or any other characters blasts is imo wasted time, they may as well be using more single target attacks to deal with the Team.”

    Well actually, scenario states they are defending Hogwarts, albeit with the goal of killing team 2. So more than likely they will more than likely be taking defensive measures, setting traps and such, right up until the castle falls down on their heads.
    Most of team 1 is at least durable enough to survive that, but it will give team 2 the jump on them. Defenders will be facing an uphill battle.

  17. Shgon Dunstan November 9, 2014 at 5:26 am -      #117

    …Even if we’re for some reason using last-chapter-Kakashi, it’s only 10-15 years later(it doesn’t actually say), so he’d only be in his late thirties-early forties, hardly an “old man”, if anything he’s likely stronger then post-war-Kakashi simply because he’s had time to adapt his fighting style to the loss of Obito’s eye.

    On Blackbeard, likely been said already, but the quake quake fruit doesn’t cause “earthquakes”(indeed, can’t even remember if it “can” aside from as a side effect…), it causes “cracks” in what it’s used on. More space warping, then ground manipulation. The castle would fall the pieces around they’re ears… Though I can remember hm ever using it on anything that big before… With him, I was more talking about him just sucking it up. That power he’s used on a whole town before in his fight with Ace, and should be more then big enough to work on the school.

  18. Kitten Lord November 9, 2014 at 12:23 pm -      #118

    So what are the feats on the suction? I mean couldnt Team 1 just walk through it? In the fight with Whitebeard posted, WB just sort of stood in it, then just walked out as if it was easy.

    @Numinous One.

    Fair enough, but as you say it wont really kill anyone.

  19. Friendlysociopath November 9, 2014 at 3:43 pm -      #119

    I wouldn’t say breaking Hogwarts would kill Team 1, but wouldn’t the attack that breaks Hogwarts probably hit the guys in it? If nothing else it removes their defenses and makes it a level playing field.

    I’m assuming the Hogwarts personnel evacuate the moment the match starts, unless OP specifies they have to fight. Scenario says they “can” help, not that they “will” help. Wizards they may be, but I imagine most teachers would nope train the students straight the hell away from a war of this caliber.

  20. Kitten Lord November 9, 2014 at 3:55 pm -      #120

    Can they believably even evacuate? to where? If hogwarts itself is being leveled quite quickly from the get go its not like their going to get far.

  21. Friendlysociopath November 9, 2014 at 4:53 pm -      #121

    “Can they believably even evacuate?”

    Yes, in a variety of fashions, only one of which requires advance planning.
    Edit: I take that back, none require advance planning.

    “To where?”

    To quote Matt Leblanc “Anywhere but here”.

  22. Mea quidem sententia November 9, 2014 at 4:58 pm -      #122

    Kitten Lord Post #115
    There is a clear difference with how the cube is struck and how Raziel swings at Kain. The former involves thrusting, the latter involves swinging. The former, Raziel isn’t angry. The latter, he is. I pointed out already that Kain pulls back like a boxer, so the first strike wouldn’t be as powerful.

    I’ll attempt to find the impulse for the cube. Keep in mind that like the cut-scene, I am only taking Raziel’s hands into consideration. The mechanics of how to determine the striking force from boxers is something that still eludes me, as I am not finding any way to determine it. I’m usually told to use kinetic energy, but that doesn’t satisfy me, as I know it isn’t that simple.

    Raziel pulls his right arm back, so I will double the distance that I found when he strikes Kain. Instead of 68.58 cm., I’ll double that, which gives us 137.16 cm. (4 ft. 6 in.). The lowest I ended up with was 201 milliseconds (0.201 s). The average speed is 682 cm/s, or 6.82 m/s. The force, if Raziel’s hand is 0.300 kg., would be 2.046 N, which would also be 2.046 N s.

    I don’t know where you got the idea that this is less force than a child playfully hitting another.

  23. Friendlysociopath November 9, 2014 at 5:07 pm -      #123

    “I don’t know where you got the idea that this is less force than a child playfully hitting another.”

    Assuming that I didn’t misread that and it’s really 2 Newtons

    www.tech21.com/impactopedia/impact-needed-to-crack-egg

    That’s probably why he’s skeptical.

  24. Kitten Lord November 9, 2014 at 5:25 pm -      #124

    @Mea

    “There is a clear difference with how the cube is struck and how Raziel swings at Kain”

    What you need to explain to me is how Raziel just swinging his arms the same estimated speed with the same weight will somehow completely change the pressure/force outputs from millions of newtons+ to as little as, friendly pointed out, as little force as required to crack an egg. Personally I doubt it makes much difference at all because from both angles of attack Raziel’s claws, strength and speed/velocity all remain in the same ballpark, with the only difference that we can factually state is he was angry and therefore more likely to go all out.

    Dont forget, Raziel is a guy who can flip and move those 20-30+ ton blocks and even flip over a triple digit ton obelisk. Consistency puts 2 newtons as a bit low dont you think?

    Its just a clearly flawed calculation, that has a hitch somewhere. Maybe impulse is relevant to the feat but there’s something missing to make up for that force.

    “Raziel pulls his right arm back, so I will double the distance that I found when he strikes Kain. Instead of 68.58 cm., I’ll double that, which gives us 137.16 cm. (4 ft. 6 in.). The lowest I ended up with was 201 milliseconds (0.201 s). The average speed is 682 cm/s, or 6.82 m/s. The force, if Raziel’s hand is 0.300 kg., would be 2.046 N, which would also be 2.046 N s.”

    Problem with this calc is you could do the same on the cube. Raziel is neither faster or heavier there and you would still come out with less force than a falling apple or cracking an egg.

  25. Mea quidem sententia November 9, 2014 at 6:36 pm -      #125

    Kitten Lord Post #124
    We’re not dealing with pressure, we’re dealing with force, and the force you find from Brinell’s scale works on a method that ignores the material the indenter is made of and the depth at which it indents.

    I will point out, however, from what I read about the claws at the LoK wiki is that Raziel cannot kill adult Dumahim with his claws, yet throwing a spear at them will kill them. Raziel’s claws should have the power to impale.

    In spite of your belief of the force produced by Raziel, this in no way contradicts the impulse, which is applied force multiplied by time. Sure, Raziel can flip and move heavy cubes, and he can tilt an obelisk over, but that’s irrelevant if it doesn’t last very long.

    I work at a warehouse. I can take heavy boxes and grab one end with one hand and flip it over with relative ease, and I’m a thin guy. If I lift it up close to my chest, it’s going to feel heavier because it’s lifted up off the ground, so the gravitational force is working against me.

    If I take a very heavy box and lift it up, sure, I lifted it up, but if I lift it up and quickly toss it, but that means the weight of the box is too heavy for me to hold comfortably. These can be applied to the cube and obelisk feats, if we’re using physics.

    To put it another way, the less time there is in an action, the less force, energy, heat, &c. is present. To use another example, lightning produces over 5 billion joules, but because it lasts only a microsecond, a human struck by it will not blow up. Even the temperature exceeds the surface of the Sun, but humans aren’t vaporized.

    All-in-all, there is no flaw, with the exception that I do not know how to calculate a boxer’s punch. That’s really the only flaw. Say I went with the calculation used to find how much force is behind a boxer’s punch, we’d probably end up with something around that.

  26. Kitten Lord November 9, 2014 at 7:21 pm -      #126

    @Mea

    ” is that Raziel cannot kill adult Dumahim with his claws, ”

    Because of their regen. You cannot kill a legacy of kain vampire of any kind without having a permanent object in their heart. So raziel cannot do so.

    ” but that’s irrelevant if it doesn’t last very long.”

    Punches dont last very long, but you would not call them irrelevent if someone struck you in the face would you? Same with a stab of a knife, or raziels claws.

    “but if I lift it up and quickly toss it, but that means the weight of the box is too heavy for me to hold comfortably.”

    You would have to prove that Raziel could not hold it comfortably to claim this though, rather than him just doing it quickly and easily because he can. He moves the large obelisk hardly slower than he flips the significantly smaller blocks, suggesting this is not really his peak. He is not however held in check when rageing at Kain.

    We already have force mea from what he does to the blocks, we then get pressure from the surface area, which finally gives us the big numbers. Unfortunately, theres no way of finding out how much more force or power Raziel can use when hes going all out, because his best feats are of him when hes just casually moving things around. Also as a side note, Raz does not “just” flip it over, he pulls it up onto his chest and briefly rests it there while he moves his hands round for the push. So he can hold up triple digit tons for at least a second or so on his body.

    “To use another example, lightning produces over 5 billion joules, but because it lasts only a microsecond, a human struck by it will not blow up. Even the temperature exceeds the surface of the Sun, but humans aren’t vaporized.”

    Yes, but Raziels attacks do not last microseconds, his attack on Kain hardly lasts longer than his strike on the blocks. Kain still tanks it however, hence why he has high durability to survive sharp attack.

    “All-in-all, there is no flaw”

    Anyone who claims a superhuman who is in the triple digit ton range of strength and whos force can bore through solid stone is apparently dealing less force by a fair multiple than required to break an egg, even in anger against his sworn enemy (at the time) is clearly making a flawed piece of math, or logical deduction somewhere.

    I dont know why your on some sort of crusade Mea to deduct from Kain any form of durability or superhuman ability. We have a fairly straightforward calculation already. This new impulse calc makes no sense, even less so than the one you made that gave us pressure less than a human bite.

    We found out the flaw in that calc then, we will work out the falw in the impulse calc in this one as well I imagine.

  27. Cassie Hack November 9, 2014 at 7:23 pm -      #127

    www.connectsavannah.com/savannah/the-true-force-of-a-boxers-punch/Content?oid=2133328 might help Mea.

  28. Friendlysociopath November 9, 2014 at 9:17 pm -      #128

    So I’ve been told Yusuke is pretty high-tier for anime characters, anyone have feats for him? The BankGambling wiki says mountain-busting so I imagine he’s at least a player in this fight.

  29. Kitten Lord November 10, 2014 at 4:51 am -      #129

    I am disapointed we have not see the Harry Dresden crowd yet, or Ryu. I have seen people debating for them before, maybe some feats? Dresden if I am not mistaken is a powerful sorcerer so that must count for something.

  30. Kitten Lord November 10, 2014 at 5:15 am -      #130

    Sorry for double post but Mea, did you not say that Raziels claw tip is a pixel in size? According to this;

    www.unitconversion.org/typography/meters-to-pixels-x-conversion.html

    A pixel is equivalent to about 0.2mm millimeters apparently. Which is smaller than our original estimates.

  31. Warlock Lowk November 10, 2014 at 6:05 am -      #131

    “I am disapointed we have not see the Harry Dresden crowd yet, or Ryu. I have seen people debating for them before, maybe some feats?”

    Because there is nothing I can bring up that would help against people who could almost literally repeatedly nuke the castle they are in. But if you want.
    ===
    Ryu can survive this huge explosion point blank
    www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pq_yUTxRbmI
    Note: I don’t know if it’s multi cityblock. This was short to the point one I could find.

    Also this
    youtu.be/5QnsjkbKCLQ
    ===
    Strong enough to block giants slashes which destroy buildings www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0tVt9ZN3VM
    10:12
    ===
    Harry could probably create area where magic does work or could cross. He’s also aware of some pretty nasty ways to fuck with you if he had some kind of link to your like hair. Ripping out you heart is the most notable, but think that one goes against his code.

  32. Friendlysociopath November 10, 2014 at 6:51 am -      #132

    The main things I know about Dresden involve his magic circle and he manipulates elements. There’s about 20 comments in a row on the Gromph Lichdrow vs Dresden Ganondorf page pertaining to Dresden, check there if interested.

  33. Shgon Dunstan November 10, 2014 at 7:46 am -      #133

    “So what are the feats on the suction? I mean couldnt Team 1 just walk through it? In the fight with Whitebeard posted, WB just sort of stood in it, then just walked out as if it was easy. ”

    …You do know that’s kind of like saying, “Cell isn’t that strong, Gohan just stood there and took everything he thew at him”, right?

    The guy was sucking up buildings in his fight with Ace.

    The thing with Harry, is DF-Wizards are real deadly when given prep time… Which he ain’t going to get here. As is, unless one of the others can save him, he just gets nuked before he can do anything about it.

  34. Amm0vamp1r3 November 10, 2014 at 11:37 am -      #134

    “She mentions ohw he could pick up weapons and move objects in contact, but that was not the same power. She says she gives it to him, not bolsters something he already has.”

    But its basically the same power, she just gave it a name. With his will he can pick up weapons, after drinking her blood that power is boosted into full blown TK

    “Umah calls it “absorbing their veins” in the game, at the beginning intro. So he must be draining their blood for this statement to be true, as other people have interpreted I think that “spectral” thing is just Kain gaining their consciousness, since he gains thoughts/knowledge from their blood. ”

    Well theirs an obvious difference between drinking blood and absorbing veins, maybe like Alucard its the difference between a dead person and a live person but from what I can remember he never got a full blown new power from drinking blood

    “Are you saying this is implied or shown because I don’t see the “last” of the blood going into him. Infact Schrodinger and his blood fell into the pool in the middle of the river, there was tons more coming from miles around ,especially based on the map in that guys office.”

    but you see at the very end of the river schrodingers head (24:55) so he was able to finish all that before the schrodinger effect took part

  35. Friendlysociopath November 10, 2014 at 11:53 am -      #135

    Hmm, I suppose Sephiroth did manage to make that barrier that took the Mako Cannon to take down, but I don’t think he can replicate that at will.

  36. Mea quidem sententia November 10, 2014 at 1:46 pm -      #136

    This post will not address everything, as I am using a phone. To the regen, prove the object has to be permanently in an adult vampire’s heart to kill them. In a weakened state, Raziel had no issue ripping out the Heart of Darkness from Kain. He could do the same to adult vampires if such was the case. Vampires can regen from cleaving, but piercing is an effective way of killing them. Raziel doesn’t say their regen will heal from piercing attacks.

    Next, I’m not on some crusade. Raziel and Kain are gaining a lot of attention. I did the same with Kratos, so this isn’t a special case. Unless you can demonstrate where I went wrong concerning impulse, it won’t matter how you feel about Raziel and Kain’s feats. I see inconsistencies. I’m going to confront any character.

    Finally, that’s the size of a pixel, unless you wish to say Raziel is a very tiny person.

  37. Friendlysociopath November 10, 2014 at 1:59 pm -      #137

    About the regen.
    Pretty sure Raziel mentions it during the first game when you’re being taught how to play. Also, vampires do not seem to die when you remove their hearts, Kain lives well past that and the vampire Raziel was buddies with had his ripped out as well.

    Also, while I wont say you necessarily are wrong on your calcs, visual evidence trumps calculations. Raziel punches into stone, that’s more than 2 Newtons any day.

  38. Rookie November 10, 2014 at 2:06 pm -      #138

    @Friendlysociopath

    “Pretty sure Raziel mentions it during the first game when you’re being taught how to play. ”

    You right (from 9:48):

  39. Amm0vamp1r3 November 10, 2014 at 2:13 pm -      #139

    “I knew my opponents’ weaknesses, having suffered them myself. Physical wounds are fleeting – a vampire’s immortal flesh begins to close as soon as it is cleaved. Vampires need only fear those wounds that impale or inflame. Water scorches like acid, and fledglings are devastated by sunlight’s touch.”

    from the game

    “Kain lives well past that and the vampire Raziel was buddies with had his ripped out as well.”

    Janos Audron

    legacyofkain.wikia.com/wiki/Janos_Audron
    -

  40. Amm0vamp1r3 November 10, 2014 at 2:37 pm -      #140

    The thing about Kain though is with calcs he is a god level person
    (like at one point I recall seeing a calc that put him at star level durability)

    but with showings, they are rather slim for the most part. So to get feats and what not its mostly either stuff he shown
    or
    power scaling

  41. Kitten Lord November 10, 2014 at 4:43 pm -      #141

    Thats why the few showings we have, like him tanking Raziel and what Raziel can do are even more important. Calcs put most characters at god level capability, but this is all fairly consistent with the character. Since becoming an Elder, Kain never gets easily sliced up by anyone, he merely shows durability.

    Basically if you cannot permanently put down a vampire by completely disintegrating them in LoK, you need to keep an object in them, impaling them. This wont work for kain though since he can survive having his heart torn out, hes immortal unlike most LoK vampires.

  42. Spectral Observer November 10, 2014 at 4:57 pm -      #142

    Any chance Raziel actually cut into Kain but he just healed from it? Raziel’s speech says that a vampire’s wounds close as soon as they are cleaved, so with his scratch only taking a fraction of a second, maybe Kain just immediately healed after he was cleaved by Raziel’s claws. This way, the scene can be interpreted as (internally consistent) extreme regen as opposed to extreme, out of scale durability. I still don’t know what to make of the blunt-sounding noise after Raziel’s claw connects though.

  43. Kitten Lord November 10, 2014 at 5:00 pm -      #143

    Not sure, I mean there was no blood or anything was there. Vampires still bleed when their cut, even when they regen. Also I guess the blunt sound is that they just hit something that did not budge, like trying to stab a knife into a solid wall, hard enough and it will make a bump of a noise.

    Also things in games make all kinds of weird noises. Raziels claws are not knife edges, hence why we always used a square millimeter rather than a square nano or micro meter.

    Kain does have sick regen as well tho :D

  44. Amm0vamp1r3 November 10, 2014 at 5:05 pm -      #144

    Spectral Observer also makes a nice point. He could have just healed really quick, which would make sense

    but as Kitten Lord said people still bleed when raziel attacks them, then again…..Kain himself has never bled. when the hylden lord sliced clean through him he didn’t bleed so idk

    but at 6:50 you see the fledglings bleed when raziel claws at them and it does make kind of a strange sound but not as much of a thud as when kain was hit

  45. Warlock Lowk November 10, 2014 at 5:07 pm -      #145

    “As is, unless one of the others can save him, he just gets nuked before he can do anything about it.”

    Well he can jump into another dimension and back.

  46. Amm0vamp1r3 November 10, 2014 at 5:10 pm -      #146

    But on the other hand when Kain used to use his claws his would make a thud sound as well

    1:40 in

  47. Kitten Lord November 10, 2014 at 5:35 pm -      #147

    @Ammo

    “Kain himself has never bled. when the hylden lord sliced clean through him he didn’t bleed so idk”

    Thats not true, he actually bled quite a lot when Raziel tore his heart out, infact before that Kain was bleeding from the wounds of their fight. So Kain does bleed. When the Sarafan lord slices him that was just imo another aspect of his survival capability, potentially another form of his immortality.

    I think I called it “phasing” or something in the respect thread. Even if you try to slice through Kain it does little.

  48. Amm0vamp1r3 November 10, 2014 at 5:43 pm -      #148

    “Thats not true, he actually bled quite a lot when Raziel tore his heart out,”

    Oh yeah forgot about that, he was bleed pretty profusely there. Forgot completely about that fight.

  49. Kitten Lord November 10, 2014 at 6:13 pm -      #149

    Which makes me wonder if the wraith blade can inhibit healing factors as well. Considering Kain did not heal at all there, which is odd considering as Raziel himself says before, even fledglings heal almost instantly not to mention kain is holding the reaver which knocks his regen up to 9000!

    Course, could be just PIS. Would sort of ruin the plot if Kain just sort of “lol no” to Raziels attacks at this stage when Kain had to lose.

  50. Mea quidem sententia November 10, 2014 at 6:21 pm -      #150

    Friendlysociopath, you’re asserting that visual evidence trumps calcs, just as Ragnorke did. Rally, when will this be proved? As for regen, I know vampires can, but Raziel makes it clear that this is caused by cleaving, not piercing, which he points out is effective. As for Kain becoming an elder, thus making him more durable, please support this conclusion.

  51. Amm0vamp1r3 November 10, 2014 at 6:22 pm -      #151

    Maybe Kains HF is one of those that runs one stamina. And raziel was able to do enough damage to make him tired and there for slow his healing

  52. Kitten Lord November 10, 2014 at 6:41 pm -      #152

    Perhaps but that was never a case with other vampires. Would be an odd factor for their Elder and most powerful vampire to have this weakness but not their youngest and weakest. Course, raziel was using a lot more on Kain, the wraith blade for one than we ever see him use on Fledlings, who used to just explode when the reaver was used on the min SR 1 iirc.

    @Mea

    “As for Kain becoming an elder, thus making him more durable, please support this conclusion.”

    Simple, in BO1 and 2 era, he could be harmed by swords, humans carrying them hurt him (well actually, william was wielding the soul reaver itself but still) and in BO 2 he could be impaled with crossbow bolts.

    Now since becoming an Elder as shown by Raziels attack he can tank considerably more without a scratch.

    “As for regen, I know vampires can, but Raziel makes it clear that this is caused by cleaving, not piercing, which he points out is effective”

    Its effective but not permanent. Hence how one would need to keep the impaled object within. Just check up any Soul reaver 1 video for understanding of the impalement. If you take out a spear or object impaled in a vampire, they just revive potentially stronger than before. Also see Dumah. Given time vampires even regenerate if water is removed from the area their in.

    -

  53. wingedlion November 10, 2014 at 6:48 pm -      #153

    “Not sure, I mean there was no blood or anything was there.”

    There are people out there who heal so fast that blood doesn’t get to spill (like Vergil), so it’s quite possible that not even a drop of blood spilled before his wound closed up.

  54. Amm0vamp1r3 November 10, 2014 at 6:51 pm -      #154

    “Perhaps but that was never a case with other vampires. Would be an odd factor for their Elder and most powerful vampire to have this weakness but not their youngest and weakest. Course, raziel was using a lot more on Kain, the wraith blade for one than we ever see him use on Fledlings, who used to just explode when the reaver was used on the min SR 1 iirc.”

    Well vampires do evolve differently so who knows but the second part sounds more believable. Kain and Raziel were roughly in the same ball park power wise. So he would have to put more power into a fight with Kain more so than with fledglings who are the only enemies raziel has long drawn out fights with.

  55. Kitten Lord November 10, 2014 at 6:52 pm -      #155

    Even in that case though, blood would be on raziels fingers, since he clawed him, or skin would be on there. There would have to be “some” evidence of it happening for it to be likely.

    The developers could have made it obvious in some manner if they wanted to imply Kain instantly regenerated. When Raziel was instantly regenerating in Soul reaver 2 they said as much. In this scene, no sign. Heres the SR 2 raziel reference for his super regen.

    1:07

    This could be the case with the blood omen 2 scene I suppose though.

    @Ammo

    “Well vampires do evolve differently so who knows”

    Yes but that’s evolution. Improvement, plus when Raziel mentions regen, its not apparently something specifically evolved but is general across all vampires as a race.

    As you say though, Raziel, especialyl at that point who is more powerful than SR 1 raziel due to so many reaver imprveoemnts and extra soul devouring is likely pulling out all stops in that combat. Being hit enough times with the wraith blade is likely to do almost anyone in.

  56. Friendlysociopath November 10, 2014 at 7:27 pm -      #156

    Question incoming, bearing in mind I haven’t played Legacy of Kain in years.

    Kain is immortal, the scion of balance or whatever. Would that mean anyone who has a destiny is unable to harm Kain?
    Raziel is the only person in that series to not be bound by destiny, he’s a paradox. Is it possible this freedom is the only reason he can harm Kain?

  57. Kitten Lord November 11, 2014 at 5:25 am -      #157

    Whether Raziel actually has a destiny or not is questionable. You see his destiny was always going to be to become the soulreaver, so technically that was his destiny. The Devs Jen, Richard and Kyle were asked about this, Raziels actual freewill is an illusion to some degree. Although it is a valid point that Raziel does have “special” in-universe characteristics, hes like a walking plot device.

    Kains immortality does stem from him being the scion of balance though. For example, when Amy Hennig was asked how Kain survives, she simply says mysteriously that his “nature as the scion of balance allows him to”, so a reality warper or someone who could change this, if possible may be able to then “kill” kain.

    Raziels paradoxical nature makes him more a blur on the timeline, nobody who “percieves” time like the Elder God and to a lesser extent moebius can really see him outside of physical means of course. Merely, as Moebius puts it, the ripples of his actions.

    I think Raziel can injure Kain because he simply has the required elements he needs to do so, like the wraith blade and what not, but nobody, not even Raz can kill him, even if they remove that which is keeping that carcass of his walking about and mobile, and not just a corpse.

    Even the arrogent continental Elder God admits his best hope of defeating either Kain or Raziel is to bury them under enough rubble to stop them from escaping.

    Also just wanted to do some further estimations. If Raziels claw tip is smaller than I estimated before, based on the pixel system Mea posted earlier and is indeed 1 pixel in size. Then that means based on this;

    www.unitconversion.org/typography/meters-to-pixels-x-conversion.html

    1 pixel is equel to about a couple of micrometers, so squared, we have about 70k square micrometers or 0.07 millimeters.

    Now, thats sharper than I imagined, so if this is the case and I have not missed something, using the required “force” in newtons to do what Raz did to the block, which was 1.1 million newtons, so to find pressure , force divided by surface area in meters;

    1100000 divided by 0.00000007 (0.07 mm squared in meters), gives us a pressure of 15.7 terapascals per 0.07 mm squared.

    Hence why fiction writers do not understand force and pressure :lol:

    That means based on those new figuires, if you wanted to punch Kain, and your fist was 7.6 inches squared on the face of the punch in area (Mea estimated this on his own hand, hands vary), you would need to punch with an output of pressure in the ball park of 1100 petapascals.

    So basically give Superman a call.

  58. Amm0vamp1r3 November 12, 2014 at 10:46 am -      #158

    “Yes but that’s evolution. Improvement, plus when Raziel mentions regen, its not apparently something specifically evolved but is general across all vampires as a race. ”

    Yeah, but evolution doesn’t mean you evolve in all respects especially with that corruption in you, what comes to mind is rehab, overcame the water issue but the sunlight thing still stayed

    and yeah its across the vampires as a whole but I don’t think it was ever expounded upon outside what is already know and stamina I don’t think was ever talked about but that’s neither here nor their because…

    “As you say though, Raziel, especialyl at that point who is more powerful than SR 1 raziel due to so many reaver imprveoemnts and extra soul devouring is likely pulling out all stops in that combat. Being hit enough times with the wraith blade is likely to do almost anyone in.”

    This is more than likely the reason Kain was so damaged, he was fighting someone roughly equal to him

    (lets face it once kain became and elder no one was close to him)

    And Raziel was clearly going all out

  59. Kitten Lord November 12, 2014 at 11:56 am -      #159

    @Ammo

    “overcame the water issue but the sunlight thing still stayed”

    Kains corruption affected his sons heavily, not himself. It merely stopped him from fulfilling his “balance guardian” job, Kain never “devolved”l ike his sons did.

    “And Raziel was clearly going all out”

    Exactly, while Kain was holding back, not really wanting to harm Raziel, probably making it a fairly easy fight for Raz who was being fueled by some Hylden influence into blood lust.

    Raz also has a lot of elements negative to Kain at his disposal, like the ice/water reaver and fire. I can imagine all the power of the reaver, combined with Raziel being, at that point more powerful than hes ever been no doubt meant Kain would have more of an issue.

  60. Amm0vamp1r3 November 12, 2014 at 12:16 pm -      #160

    “Kains corruption affected his sons heavily, not himself. It merely stopped him from fulfilling his “balance guardian” job, Kain never “devolved”l ike his sons did. ”

    That makes me wonder would he have looked the same (all green with horns and what not) if he wasn’t corrupted or would he have looked more like Janos Audron

  61. Kitten Lord November 12, 2014 at 12:21 pm -      #161

    Probably more like Janos, or at the very least like his original Blood omen self, Very pale white sort of colouring but still somewhat human looking.

    Course I like the ancient vampires version of Kain as the Scion of balance;

    fc07.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2010/258/d/e/scion_of_balance_by_kainthevampirelord-dzvp7b.png

  62. Amm0vamp1r3 November 12, 2014 at 12:28 pm -      #162

    I would have preffered that personally….with pants ofcourse.

    Well enough talk about Kain, as for the debate itself team 2 pretty much has this in the bag.

  63. Mea quidem sententia November 12, 2014 at 9:47 pm -      #163

    You’re not understanding, Kitten Lord. If an image uses 1 px., it doesn’t actually mean the image itself is 1 px. By your logic, Raziel is tiny, since he’s 720 px. Tall in the image I use to determine how sharp his claws are. If 720 px. represents 6 ft. 4 in., then 1 px. / 720 px. gives me the percentage, then I multiply by Raziel’s actuall height. Based on this, Raziel’s claw tip is approx. 2 mm. Ignore impulse all you want. I’m not working with your assumptions. Using the same math, after all, shows that Raziel’s claws aren’t as powerful and Kain isn’t as durable. To be consistent, you have to take all data into consideration. This is true for any character. That is all.

  64. Kitten Lord November 13, 2014 at 5:45 am -      #164

    Oh I see, I thought I was misunderstanding the pixel thing.

    2mm is basically what we were assuming in the first place.

    ” Ignore impulse all you want. I’m not working with your assumptions. ”

    Ive not really made any assumptions. The only assumption was the area of Raziels claw tip, and 2mm is close enough so my assumption was in the ballpark. That said, I find it hard to believe you actually got a close up enough of the very tip of raziels claw to determine its tip anyway, things like the tip of a knife or object is impossibly hard to get from a digital image, especially at the resolution LoK runs at.

    As for impulse, other people have already covered why your 2 newton figuire is clearly wrong, its horribly inconsistent with the data.

    “To be consistent, you have to take all data into consideration”

    Which your not doing, you have found some calculation on impulse, ran the numbers, came to a crazy outlier that makes no sense in the universe. And now you want to use that one calculation to say the rest of the game is void apparently when we have a perfectly good calculation that works for Raziels strikes on the stone.

    “This is true for any character. ”

    You dont seem to be interested in any other character, youve not ran the numbers for anyone else in the thread….

    “That is all.”


    I hope so, who knows maybe you will continue your crusade in the future though.

    So Mea, how much force would it require to literally atomize limestone? in the area Raziel did it?

  65. Kitten Lord November 13, 2014 at 6:15 am -      #165

    Ok so math based on 4mm squared;

    So per 4mm square area of Kains skin, he can tank up to 0.29 Terapascals in pressure.

    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orders_of_magnitude_(pressure)

    I like to use this to try and determine what thats means, Kains skin per only a tiny surface area not only comes close to the sum pressure at the core of the planet but is greater than that of a carbon nanotube. Its almost like Kain has nanomolecular armor, only not on a molecular level but on a vastly larger scale which would make him nigh indestructible to physical assault.

    Moving on, because a lot of characters like to punch or use their fists, not everyone uses sharp weapons, swords or claws etc. So using Mea’s own fist size again of 7.6 square inches;

    That would give us Kains durability as about 356.8 Terapascals in pressure per 7.6 square inches. Not quite there but a few billion off from the Nuclear detonation of Ivy Mike.

    How fast would a person, of say 200 kilograms have to go to equel the pressure required to equal Raziels damage on Kain?

    Using this calculator;

    www.easycalculation.com/physics/classical-physics/force.php

    I started by using the speed of light as the acceleration, but it was no ball. So through some trial and error I found out that you need to be going at over 25x c to hit Kain with enough force to do what Raziel did to him anyway. I imagine faster than that, like 30x the speed of light would break through his skin layers at least. Whether his regen would defeat you before you can hit him with enough force to break bone on the other hand is questionable.

    Course if your a giant, and have a larger than human fist size you may as well give up altogether. If we hit the square foot resistance, and finally square meter….well golly…maybe an Angry hulk or something could do it.

    Ah well. As I said before, give Superman a call.

  66. Mea quidem sententia November 13, 2014 at 10:18 am -      #166

    *fcepalm* Go ahead and think I’m on a crusade against Kain. Your numbers are absurd and inconsistent for the series. I already told you why I’m getting on Kain. He is popping up a lot on this site and you’re making ridiculous claims for your favorite character. I did this for Kratos as well, but maybe you weren’t present when people made BS claims abouthim, too. Pit can harm people with mountain-busting strength and nanosecond reaction time? Nope! I hopped on that shit real fast to disprove these ridiculous claims. I’m not finished with Kain, but there is not point addressing you on the matter, as you’ve ben claiming this under another account before this one. I’ll just dismiss your claims as unwarranted. Want to prove Kain is that durable? You’d better start by taking all data, rather than running one theory and forming all other data around it. That is illogical and unscientific.

  67. Kitten Lord November 13, 2014 at 1:13 pm -      #167

    @Mea

    “*fcepalm* Go ahead and think I’m on a crusade against Kain. ”

    You must be, its the only character you ever come into threads to try and downplay. If you wanted to do math for characters for the sake of equality then you would do it for more of them surely? There is like 20 characters in this thread and your picking on one.

    ” Your numbers are absurd and inconsistent for the series. ”

    What like your 2 newtons? Superhumans who cant punch barely harder than a apple falling?

    “Want to prove Kain is that durable?”

    I wanted to do, I found a feat that was useful, and I used the data on it to find out that Kan is actually ridiculously durable. Which is consistent with characters who can move around triple digit ton objects.

    There is not actually any other source to say Kains durability is inconsistent there, because at no other point is he wounded by someone weaker than Raziel.

    So yeah, my case sort of adds up.

    “I’ll just dismiss your claims as unwarranted”

    Fantastic, ill just dismiss your weird beliefs as well, if you make a good bit of math or argument for it I wont ignore you but coming in here with Kain being weaker than a child or something is absurd and I was not the only one to point it out. Anyone apparently can see it, including yourself I imagine.

    A being who strikes with a million newtons does not strike with only 2 newtons just because he put all his rage and force into the attack…… :lol:

    -

  68. Amm0vamp1r3 November 13, 2014 at 1:32 pm -      #168

    Kain is shaping up to be one of those Dante type characters lol. Basically one of those “stay away from him when making debates” type people

  69. Kitten Lord November 13, 2014 at 2:28 pm -      #169

    Yeah, which is preferable as far as I am concerned because hes a character I like, but having to defend the same aspects of him in every thread is getting tiresome. I dont want to think of “kain” as a cool character to be sort of have this “hassle” tag added to him as well.

    I get it that the LoK universe is not “flashy”, you dont get people running around at full speed, throwing out nuclear blasts every second but it was not designed to do so, its hax, powers and abilities are subtle, its more story based than Shock value like Asuras wrath and Bayonetta.

  70. Friendlysociopath November 13, 2014 at 2:29 pm -      #170

    “Basically one of those “stay away from him when making debates” type people”

    To be fair, that’s because people try to calculate things that weren’t really meant to be calculated. I have no doubt the developers didn’t think this far ahead when they decided to have Raziel punch into stone.

  71. wingedlion November 13, 2014 at 2:32 pm -      #171

    “You must be, its the only character you ever come into threads to try and downplay. If you wanted to do math for characters for the sake of equality then you would do it for more of them surely? There is like 20 characters in this thread and your picking on one.”

    That would probably be because none of the other characters in this thread have had any calcs brought up but Kain. So i don’t see how he could pick any of the others when there is nothing to bring up for them.

    And its not like Mea is biased against Kain, I’ve seen him argue against calcs for other characters that he thinks is wrong.

  72. Amm0vamp1r3 November 13, 2014 at 2:33 pm -      #172

    “To be fair, that’s because people try to calculate things that weren’t really meant to be calculated. I have no doubt the developers didn’t think this far ahead when they decided to have Raziel punch into stone.”

    Which is true, I bet they didn’t think Kain would be used in debates like this. Which is the case with most forms of fiction, they do it for the enjoyment but then we get our hands on it and the simple little knight turns into a solar system busting monster lol

  73. Kitten Lord November 13, 2014 at 2:40 pm -      #173

    @Wing

    “ecause none of the other characters in this thread have had any calcs brought up but Kain”

    I did not look back but I dont recall bringing up any calcs before he brought them up himself.

    “And its not like Mea is biased against Kain, I’ve seen him argue against calcs for other characters that he thinks is wrong.”

    So have I to be honest but I guess I feel like he does it especially for Kain recently, maybe its because I notice it more because its a character I debate for than the others but theres been an argument between us for Kain every step of the way in most threads and they always come back even when I think we were quits.

    The last thread we agreed on the calculations on the stone feat and now suddenly he disagrees with it again.

    @Ammo

    “Which is true, I bet they didn’t think Kain would be used in debates like this. Which is the case with most forms of fiction, they do it for the enjoyment but then we get our hands on it and the simple little knight turns into a solar system busting monster lol”

    Exactly, this is true for all characters. Some speed feats could just boil down because the game, universe or whatever were saving time, wanted to get to the action or because it was cool or funny, same with attacks.

    its not like I imagined any dev for any game or show actually satd down before they made their fiction with a universities worth of professors to make sure their fiction wasnt too rdiciulous… :lol:

  74. wingedlion November 13, 2014 at 2:50 pm -      #174

    “I did not look back but I dont recall bringing up any calcs before he brought them up himself.”

    “brought up” was a wrong choice of words. What i meant to say is that there are no known calcs for anyone in this thread but Kain (at least for the characters that i know of, which is most of them).

    “So have I to be honest but I guess I feel like he does it especially for Kain recently, maybe its because I notice it more because its a character I debate for than the others but theres been an argument between us for Kain every step of the way in most threads and they always come back even when I think we were quits.”

    It probably feels that way because of the recent characters that i see popping up, Kain is the one of the few with an actual calc (from what i know of at least).

    “The last thread we agreed on the calculations on the stone feat and now suddenly he disagrees with it again.”

    Yeah i noticed.
    I will say this though. While i don’t know much about calcs, saying that Raziel only punched Kain with only the force of an falling apple does sound extremely absurd.

  75. Amm0vamp1r3 November 13, 2014 at 2:51 pm -      #175

    So the way I see it, if it do make more kain threads, itll probably be Blood omen 1 era or Blood Omen 2 era because I love kain. He is one of the vampires that influenced my deep love for them back in the day. But just like the dante + quick silver argument I don’t want everyt thread with him to boil down to calcs and inconsistencies

    but I would hate for kain just to disappear off the site for good.
    -

  76. Kitten Lord November 13, 2014 at 3:12 pm -      #176

    BO 1 and 2 Kain are pretty cool in their own right. Even those Kains are pretty hax and theres no calcs to mess up the proceedings.

    BO 1 is best for spells, BO 2 for more physical combat I guess. Both wielded the reaver though, BO 1 Kain is probably the more powerful out of the two.

    Regardless of whether Kain was in the thread or not though I think most agree with the consensus including myself that Team 2 win either way.

    I could try and play devils advocate and argue for Dante, I have played all DMC games so am fairly proficient.

  77. wingedlion November 13, 2014 at 3:17 pm -      #177

    “Regardless of whether Kain was in the thread or not though I think most agree with the consensus including myself that Team 2 win either way.”

    Indeed. Team 2 for FP.

    “I could try and play devils advocate and argue for Dante, I have played all DMC games so am fairly proficient.”

    Eh, I’ve played it too, and honestly, either Berserker or Sora could deal with Dante.

  78. Amm0vamp1r3 November 13, 2014 at 3:22 pm -      #178

    yeah most people on team 2 can or have already taken down Dante on this site

  79. Kitten Lord November 13, 2014 at 3:26 pm -      #179

    How would they counter quicksilver?

  80. wingedlion November 13, 2014 at 3:31 pm -      #180

    Sora has a shield that makes him immune to time stops. But a better question would be how would Dante deal with a timestop?

    As for Berserker, there is no way that Dante can actually kill him.

  81. Friendlysociopath November 13, 2014 at 3:54 pm -      #181

    I feel bad that nobody really jumped in to help Team 1, there was a brief bit about Lancer and after that almost nothing.

  82. Kitten Lord November 13, 2014 at 4:40 pm -      #182

    @Wing

    “Sora has a shield that makes him immune to time stops. But a better question would be how would Dante deal with a timestop?”

    Is the shield “always” on? Or does he have to cast it?

    Also not sure how Dante would survive it, if he cannot dodge it I dont think he has any resistances.

    “As for Berserker, there is no way that Dante can actually kill him”

    how so?

  83. wingedlion November 13, 2014 at 4:55 pm -      #183

    “Is the shield “always” on? Or does he have to cast it?”

    He has to cast it.

    “how so?”

    I don’t know if you saw my post about it in the previous page, but basically Berserker special ability is a noble phantasm called God Hand. it’s a conceptual shield that completely negates any attack as long as the attack isn’t A-ranked. the shield doesn’t really have anything to do with damage, as a C-ranked noble phantasm is equal to a A-ranked attack, yet it will still be negated by god hand, while A-ranked spells will actually hurt him; it’s a case by case basis.

    However, on top of that God Hand also has a second function; it gives Berserker 12 extra lives. Meaning even if you can kill him once, he’ll just come back to life. And to make matters worse, God Hand gives Berserker immunity to whatever killed him beforehand.

    So basically, you need to have 13 different A-ranked methods to kill Berserker, all while he’s still trying to kill you.

  84. Kitten Lord November 13, 2014 at 5:31 pm -      #184

    @Wing

    “He has to cast it.”

    So whats the window for the cast? I don’t know his character so I cant tell whether or not he would definitely go for using that shield first or whether he has preferences as a character for something else but that window could leave him vulnerable to a counter time stop.

    “it’s a conceptual shield that completely negates any attack as long as the attack isn’t A-ranked.”

    What does A rank or C rank mean? couldnt that come down to a no limits fallacy? Suggesting that nothing of a certain element in the whole of fiction, including those outside its own would be effective?

    I would ask the same for;

    “And to make matters worse, God Hand gives Berserker immunity to whatever killed him beforehand.”

    So say the living tribunal blasted him to dust, it would not be able to do so a second time due to the God hand? Thats an extreme example but you get what I mean?

    What has it canonically tanked before so we can gauge the level of immunity?

    -

  85. Friendlysociopath November 13, 2014 at 5:32 pm -      #185

    Is the shield “always” on? Or does he have to cast it?

    For the most part he must cast it, however, Limit Form (one of his drive forms) let’s him use it whenever he wants just by rolling. Which would translate to him having it available whenever he wants it to be. It also reflects said attack back at the enemy.

    So whats the window for the cast?

    He says something along the lines of “barrier” or “shield” and the shield goes up. For the dash version for Limit Form it’s literally whenever he rolls, which would mean he can use it whenever he moves in that form. And he moves pretty darn fast canonically.

    I don’t know how to handle Fate/Stay/Night characters, they’re so grounded in rules specific to their universe…

  86. Kitten Lord November 13, 2014 at 5:43 pm -      #186

    So a battle of time powers could be based purely on the roll of a dice then because Dante also just has to “whim” his quicksilver into action.

    In fact, it may work automatically if he is in danger which would likely be immediate as this match starts what with his opponents.

  87. wingedlion November 13, 2014 at 5:54 pm -      #187

    “So whats the window for the cast?”

    It’s basically the same as his normal block, with only a minor difference in how it looks. i can’t find it right now, but i can show you how fast his regular block is.

    at 9:30

    “What does A rank or C rank mean? couldnt that come down to a no limits fallacy? Suggesting that nothing of a certain element in the whole of fiction, including those outside its own would be effective?”

    The ranks are basically what’s used to compare attacks to one another. An A-ranked noble phantasm is better than a B-ranked one, same with spells and attacks.
    I’m confused. Why would that be a no limits fallacy?

    “So say the living tribunal blasted him to dust, it would not be able to do so a second time due to the God hand? Thats an extreme example but you get what I mean?”

    The living tribunal is nigh-omnipotent though.
    If he wanted to, he could kill berserker permanently even with god hand.

  88. wingedlion November 13, 2014 at 5:56 pm -      #188

    “In fact, it may work automatically if he is in danger which would likely be immediate as this match starts what with his opponents.”

    Pretty certain quicksilver does not do that.

  89. Ragnorke November 13, 2014 at 6:00 pm -      #189

    I’m not really getting into this, but i’d like to ask a question (which has probably already been discussed)

    How can team 1 deal with Alucard?

  90. Kitten Lord November 13, 2014 at 6:10 pm -      #190

    @Wing

    “It’s basically the same as his normal block, with only a minor difference in how it looks. ”

    Ime confused, is it a physical block then or something?

    “Why would that be a no limits fallacy”

    Because its vague, having invulnerability to a “ranked” attack in a system only gauged by that fiction seems like you could extrapolate that invulnerability to infinity, as in, its impossible to know what from other fictions would have “labels” of A or B rank etc.

    “The living tribunal is nigh-omnipotent though.”

    I know but thats the thing, at what stage does Berserkers “invulnerability” to an attack get nullified and how does one even determine that level? Surely it does not take an omnipotent or close to one to be powerful enough? How can we gauge this?

    “Pretty certain quicksilver does not do that.”

    Off the top of my head, didn’t Dante not realize the rocks were falling towards him in the quicksilver cutscene? Before they froze? I thought it worked automatically for him so he wasnt hit.

    @Ragnorke

    “How can team 1 deal with Alucard?”

    Is Alucard a factor without any souls? like, does he retain even a small amount of the power he had pre Schrodinger?

  91. Friendlysociopath November 13, 2014 at 6:22 pm -      #191

    Ime confused, is it a physical block then or something?

    No, he conjures up a shield of light. He just says the word and up it pops. Considering Sora’s speed, he can say it pretty fast, I think he’s Dante’s speed, if not a little faster due to final fight feats plus going through 6 buildings in an instant.

    Visual examples here
    www.khwiki.com/Reflect

    You could make the argument it can’t block “everything”, but Disney was kind enough to give you high enough examples like Hercules punching it and not breaking it to make the level of damage it can take pretty high. This is the same Hercules that grabs mountain-size titans and chucks them into space.

    Oh, he’s talking about stop block, that’s just there.

  92. wingedlion November 13, 2014 at 6:24 pm -      #192

    “Is the shield “always” on? Or does he have to cast it?”

    “He has to cast it.”

    …My bad. I got this grossly wrong. Its a passive ability.
    I must have confused one ability with another. I don’t know how i got that wrong.
    I still have to find it though.

    “Because its vague, having invulnerability to a “ranked” attack in a system only gauged by that fiction seems like you could extrapolate that invulnerability to infinity, as in, its impossible to know what from other fictions would have “labels” of A or B rank etc.”

    Or you could just use elemental compatability and equate the A-ranked attack to it’s opponent counterpart (if he has one).
    I guess i’m still a bit confused at what your asking. The letters are just an ranking system. If someone had a spell that was as strong as an A-ranked spell, that would work.

    “Off the top of my head, didn’t Dante not realize the rocks were falling towards him in the quicksilver cutscene? Before they froze? I thought it worked automatically for him so he wasnt hit.”

    Actually Dante looked up at the last minute and then they stopped.
    www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMxIXHFcFyA
    at 15:16

  93. wingedlion November 13, 2014 at 6:25 pm -      #193

    @freindlysociopath
    were not talking about reflect, were talking about stop block.

  94. Ragnorke November 13, 2014 at 6:31 pm -      #194

    ” Is Alucard a factor without any souls? like, does he retain even a small amount of the power he had pre Schrodinger?”

    A dude that exists everywhere simultaneously, with guns, is definitely a factor.
    How can you dodge something that exists all around you?
    And how can you hit something that exists nowhere?

  95. Kitten Lord November 13, 2014 at 6:40 pm -      #195

    @Wing

    “I guess i’m still a bit confused at what your asking. The letters are just an ranking system. If someone had a spell that was as strong as an A-ranked spell, that would work.”

    I see, i thought you were simply saying that only actual A-ranked attacks like those listed in the game would work, rather than an attack of equel power. I suppose that seems fair.

    So canonically speaking, whats the best A-rank attack and its power he has tanked while under this effect?

    Also am I right in saying he uses a basic, stone sword? Reading the wiki its apparently a simple piece of flint that relies on purely the fact its large and heavy for its damage.

    “Actually Dante looked up at the last minute and then they stopped.”

    Ah I see, I thought it was automatic. Never-mind that then, in which case its still fairly quick.

    @Ragnorke

    “A dude that exists everywhere simultaneously, with guns, is definitely a factor.
    How can you dodge something that exists all around you?
    And how can you hit something that exists nowhere?”

    Depends on how much of those statements were hyperbole or shown at all, I mean Schrodinger himself “existed” enough to slit his own throat, while Alucard in the vids posted in this thread exists “somewhere” enough to communicate, touch and drink the blood of his friends.

    You could also argue what danger guns have if they also dont exist anywhere. Suggesting that Alucard may have to “exist” to attack. Also considering what else Team 2 is packing, surely a pair of pistols, even good ones like Alucards are the least of Team 1’s worries?

    -

  96. Ragnorke November 13, 2014 at 6:44 pm -      #196

    “I mean Schrodinger himself “existed” enough to slit his own throat, ”

    Because he chose to exist in that specific spot.

    ” hile Alucard in the vids posted in this thread exists “somewhere” enough to communicate”

    Because he chose to exist in that specific spot.

    They can be wherever they want to be, and can also be nowhere if they want.
    The offensive effectiveness of this would depend on their reaction time i suppose.

    “Suggesting that Alucard may have to “exist” to attack.”

    He does.
    Which is why i said itll depend on his reaction time.

    ” Also considering what else Team 2 is packing, surely a pair of pistols, even good ones like Alucards are the least of Team 1’s worries?”

    It isn’t a large worry, but it’s an ever existing worry nonetheless.
    They have no way to even remotely stop him.

  97. Friendlysociopath November 13, 2014 at 6:59 pm -      #197

    “They have no way to even remotely stop him.”

    Eh, Dresden can trap him in a magic circle (in theory). I forget how they work, most modern fantasy series have the same idea, it’s a magic circle that only the maker can remove, they also tend to stop all magic and people from entering or leaving.

    Lancer apparently has a spear that kills you before it kills you… okay I admit, I didn’t pay attention to that fully, it’s on this thread somewhere around the 70s.

    Not sure about everyone else on Team 1 for various reasons. Dante has some sort of demon-sealing ability. Don’t know how it works.
    Sephiroth supposedly has all of the powers he did in the game but he suffers from the CIS/developers not wanting him to appear weak of “He wasn’t actually trying.
    Jiro specializes in killing vampires with his silver sword (I know nearly nothing about Jiro).
    And then there’s the rest of team 1…I’ve got nothing for them.

  98. Warlock Lowk November 13, 2014 at 9:03 pm -      #198

    “it’s a magic circle that only the maker can remove, they also tend to stop all magic and people from entering or leaving.”

    Humans can enter or leave. Though if they are capable of magic then it’s disabled while in it.
    It’s supernatural creatures that can’t enter or exit the circle.

  99. Kitten Lord November 14, 2014 at 4:59 am -      #199

    @Rag

    “They have no way to even remotely stop him”

    Thats the thing, considering he has to exist to attack, and his attacks are not massively fast, e.g. bullet speed which is fairly simple by most comparisons in here hes going to be vulnerable for periods of time.

    His power basically comes down to a teleport.

    Its also not necessarily just about choice as you said. its about “belief”, or “I think, therefore I am” based on this;

    hellsing.wikia.com/wiki/Schr%C3%B6dinger

    So he has to actually “believe” what hes doing is true, and belief and choice on a whim is something different altogether.

    So his power is limited also by his own mind. And in the “gap” Team 1 has while Alucard is trying to attack them with his guns, anyone, such as Dante could just blitz through and kill him then and there, or blow him to bits with his own firearms.

    He needs a consciousness to “think afterall, a good blow to the head, or removing it entirely would likely end his plans and his threat.

    @Thread

    Doesnt Sephiroth have a number of materia? or the power to stop or slow time? Bolstering the “time” any of them have to strike at Team 2?

    I still think between Dante and Sephiroth Team 1 can do “something”, and Kratos is damn strong as slow and just generally useless as he is, he has that going for him, maybe one of them can throw him at the other side :lol:

    The only person I have heard who so far has any resistance to time powers is Sora potentially.

  100. Numinous One November 14, 2014 at 5:09 am -      #200

    “He needs a consciousness to “think afterall, a good blow to the head, or removing it entirely would likely end his plans and his threat.”

    Except for the part where Schrodinger was still self conscious after cutting his own head off, until he was drowned out by 3.2m+ souls.
    Moot point since post #43, itchyness specified Pre-Schrodinger Alucard.
    So he has a shit ton of respawns instead of quasi – omnipresence.

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