Star Wars Vs Warhammer 40K, Halo & Star Trek

Star Wars Vs Warhammer 40K, Halo & Star Trek

Suggested by Commander Farsight

Composite Star Wars has a Wormhole 1,000 km in diameter, connecting to 40k‘s galaxy. Halo and Star Trek‘s galaxies are connected to 40k’s by identical wormholes.

Each Wormhole is stationed at each galaxies’ capital. (Coruscant, Terra, and both Earths.)

They have two months to share tech, colonize any spare worlds.

No Gods, Omnipotents, excluding the Chaos Gods. Chaos can still corrupt Star Wars.

Which side wins?

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572 Comments on "Star Wars Vs Warhammer 40K, Halo & Star Trek"

  1. Sauroposeidon November 15, 2014 at 8:34 am -      #201

    For the record, I think A Die Is Cast should be avoided for ST debates. It’s generally self contradictory, and doesn’t jive with the rest of what I’ve seen with TNG/DS9 era stuff. Although DS9 generally has issues with both TNG and itself in what’s actually going on.

  2. Shgon Dunstan November 15, 2014 at 8:44 am -      #202

    @FezzesRCool11
    “The debate seems to be reverting back to ST vs SW, so I would like to attempt to divert it.”

    The problem is… The match is pretty much over as soon as ST collapse the wormhole leading to SW. That+time travel=win.

    We could debate the finer points of the god-like beings that the infection/assimilation/etc races would become with free reign and as much time as they want in the three ailed galaxies, but… Whenever they did decide it was time to attack SW, they’d completely stomp.

  3. GMoney November 15, 2014 at 8:52 am -      #203

    While I’m of the opinion that SW could fight on par and even defeat each of these factions individually (except Trek) it does look like they are screwed here.

  4. Malenfant November 15, 2014 at 9:21 am -      #204

    “I made that statement with a LOT of qualifiers which you are ignoring here. And most likely because Forerunner weaponry isn’t necessarily better than Trek weaponry, I was working with the idea that the Borg could adapt to it and take their tech.”

    Actually no, all it takes is a massive Forerunner string operation (Forerunner commanders often times coordinate stellar attacks across distances of astronomical unit’s using hundreds of thousands of ships) to deal with the Borg, that or simply BFR’ing them to slipspace, or even better, inside the core of a star via slipspace.

    “While I’m of the opinion that SW could fight on par and even defeat each of these factions individually (except Trek) it does look like they are screwed here.”

    Depending on the situation Halo could mop the floor, and WH40k has some things that might come in hand (Celestial Orrey, C’tan, etc.).

  5. the_man_with The_Answers November 15, 2014 at 2:36 pm -      #205

    “Alright, perhaps an explanation on the calc is in order. “Petatons” comes from the calculated melting of the planet’s crust. Their computer estimates were based on them melting through the mantle, so I assumed something similar was happening to the crust. I only converted the energy required for such a feat into “tons of TNT equivalent” for the sake of our understanding. Energy is energy, but explosions and melting would look differently.”

    At the amount of energy we’re talking, “melting” and “exploding” aren’t going to look very different. Especially considering the contact time of the weapons fired. To destroy 30% of the crust in the limited shots fired, via “melting,” you’d have to have insanely energetic and high-temperature impacts. So insanely high temperature that you are going to cause massive explosions as all that pent up thermal energy releases. This should look even more visually impressive when you factor in the extremely rapid expansion of the crustal materials as they go from a solid to a high temperature magma and vapor in a fraction of a second. With that much heat (And a massive pressure gradient along with it), the atmosphere/cloud cover should peel back like a banana in a starving monkey’s hand and essentially be replaced by a new atmosphere consisting of super-heated rock vapor. But instead we get a handful of shots fired at like, a fifth or less of the planet’s surface that somehow destroyed 30% of the crust without anything visually happening to the planet.

    I mean, melting 30% of the crust, we’re talking about nearly 9 exajoules right there, which if there is what, 20 ships each firing about 3 times for the first volley, would indeed be “petatons” (about 150) in that that’s what the numbers give, but certainly isn’t what is seen or even possible with the firing area. To melt 30% of the crust from such a small area, you are going to need an exponentially higher amount of energy than what the previous calculation calls for (Because it assumes 100% efficiency and equal energy being applied uniformly). Which just gets more and more ridiculous and setting breaking. Like, any random captain of a ship that doesn’t like the Federation could just warp to Earth, fire one or two shots, and completely life-wipe the planet before anyone could do anything.

    “so canon statements take a little precedent over what an outside viewer may feel is appropriate.”

    It’s canon in that it represents like, the extreme high end that breaks the setting. Like, using this number as any sort of common firepower number makes everyone in Star Trek look blindingly retarded (The same goes for Star Wars or most universes with biggatons). Like, less tactically intelligent than an 8 year old playing a video game. And I prefer not to think of universes as blindingly incompetent (Except for the aliens in Signs, they have no redemption).

    Additionally, using any high end outliers as any sort of evidence in a debate is just poor form. Even if you are just saying “our high end is better than your high end.” It literally means nothing. The only thing that should matter is the most consistent and appropriate numbers. It doesn’t matter if Star Trek or Star Wars has a higher high-end than the other if one’s typical firepower is greater than that of the other when you rightly ignore high ends.

    It’s why you never hear me debating in Halo vs Mass Effect with the argument that, because Halo has some ludicrously unbelievable high-end feats that are nonetheless canon, then Halo should have massively superior firepower. The fact that the numbers say that the UNSC has Teraton/Gigaton MACs is completely irrelevant to the fact that MACs only commonly display firepower in the low double digit kilotons (Technically the range could go lower than that, as MACs are “dial a yield and can go lower) – low single digit megatons range. Which falls consistently within the bounds of their universe and the powers they are fighting. Teratons/Gigatons don’t, regardless of their official canon standing.

    Which is why I’m fervently against biggatons unless the universe consistently shows them.

    “The debate seems to be reverting back to ST vs SW, so I would like to attempt to divert it.”

    If that’s in reference to me, I have no standing on the ST vs SW debate. I just don’t like either side arguing high-ends, because high-ends shouldn’t matter.
    -

  6. Aelfinn November 15, 2014 at 3:58 pm -      #206

    “But instead we get a handful of shots fired at like, a fifth or less of the planet’s surface”
    “To melt 30% of the crust from such a small area”

    Just because THAT view screen showed that amount of the crust being attacked doesn’t mean attacks aren’t happening elsewhere. It’s not a ridiculous assumption that “perhaps we didn’t see all of it” when the commander gives the order to “take up attack positions” or whatever he says. I mean, what “attack positions” would be applicable if they all clumped up and shot at the same spot.
    =
    “without anything visually happening to the planet.”

    If every science fiction required their visuals to match up with the intended effect, almost no sci-fi would have feats. A certain amount of artistic license must be given to the creators who don’t study stuff like this. Are they going to really care what “destoroy 30% of the crust looks like”? No, but that’s the obvious point they were trying to get across.
    =
    “It’s canon in that it represents like, the extreme high end that breaks the setting.”

    You don’t watch a lot of Star Trek, do you? It’s not all about wars and fights and combat. In fact, that’s probably one of the lowest things on their priority list. It is vastly different than Star Wars, Halo, Warhammer 40K, and Mass Effect in that regard. The fighting that DOES happen, happens in space. There’s practically no episode where this concern over “setting-breaking” would actually apply. In fact, the Die is Cast is one of the FEW episodes, and the only episode I can remember, where anyone was able to attack an opponent’s planet directly, and that’s because the planet was left open for a trap. Furthermore, Star Trek has insane sensors. They can track and detect objects moving at Warp, so it’s pretty much impossible to approach an enemy planet without being detected. That’s why the Federation, the Klingons, and the Romulans all regularly patrol their “neutral zones”, which separate their territories and make sure no one is trying to Warp in and blow up something important. It actually makes a lot of sense given the situation.
    =
    “The fact that the numbers say that the UNSC has Teraton/Gigaton MACs is completely irrelevant to the fact that MACs only commonly display firepower in the low double digit kilotons”

    There is a distinct difference here. A yield as given by canonical events is automatically given precedence over what “the numbers say”, as the canonical event is what the creators wanted from their material, while their “numbers” could be some throw-away, space-filler line. For example:

    Claim: The ICS says 200 gigatons.
    Effect in canon: Star Wars the Clone Wars demonstrate much lower yields.

    Claim: A tech manual gives numbers indicating that MAC’s should be in the Teratons.
    Effect in canon: The MAC’s demonstrate much lower yields.

    Claim: Star Trek weaponry is in the petatons worth of energy.
    Effect in canon: Star Trek weaponry destroys 30% of a planet’s crust.
    =
    =
    Yes, it’s very high-end and shouldn’t be the go-to number, but it is a canon event.

  7. Jolttra November 15, 2014 at 5:55 pm -      #207

    Hey, I got a question real quick. Considering Treks most powerful weapons are all missiles, what’s to stop Wars ships from just blowing up those missile hundreds of km away with point defense weapons? Most ships have those, especially Old and New Republic era ships. And frigates like the Lancer and Nebulon specialise in shooting down incoming misdiles. And most corvettes can be easily modified to fulfill this task. So what does it matter how powerful Photon Torpedoes actually are if they never get a chance to hit their target?

  8. the_man_with The_Answers November 15, 2014 at 6:07 pm -      #208

    “I mean, what “attack positions” would be applicable if they all clumped up and shot at the same spot.”

    Attack positions so that they all have a line of sight and don’t hit each other. We don’t see any shots coming in from any different angles, and we don’t see any of the blasts “waves” wrap around from the other side. Even then, you still have the problem of significantly lower than 100% efficiency and still largely nonuniform application of thermal energy. Which drives those already crazy 150PT much higher.

    “If every science fiction required their visuals to match up with the intended effect, almost no sci-fi would have feats. A certain amount of artistic license must be given to the creators who don’t study stuff like this. Are they going to really care what “destoroy 30% of the crust looks like”? No, but that’s the obvious point they were trying to get across.”

    So I guess the Covenant have Petatons now?
    img52.imageshack.us/img52/3278/reachmap4.jpg
    www.halopedia.org/images/0/0c/Fall_of_Reach_1.jpg
    I mean, that’s canon right there. The Covenant melted Reach’s crust and boiled away the oceans save for a few locations. Which is a fuck lot more energy than the Star Trek feat (Especially when Reach is slightly larger than Earth). But arguing Petatons from that is ridiculous, because you can take one look at the Halo Universe and know that that much firepower would completely break the setting. Hilariously less so than it would Star Trek though, as the Covenant at least have the excuse of not knowing where the UNSC planets are so they can pop in and life-wipe them, where as major galactic polities in Star Trek have known locations, meaning any person with a disposition towards genocide and also happens to have a ship could pop in and wipe out the planetary population.

    “There’s practically no episode where this concern over “setting-breaking” would actually apply.”

    Except for the Die is Cast episode apparently. I mean, Halo, Mass Effect, Star Trek, Star Wars and so on are all universes where planets are defended in relatively lengthy space battles above them. This type of thing can’t exist if every other ship is carrying life-wiping firepower. Because if the enemy wants to defeat your planet, all he has to do is get one shot off at it. Fuck, even something as simple as a missed shot could life-wipe the planet. If you’re fighting above a planet, and even if you don’t want to destroy it, there is no firepower compromise that allows you to fight targets with “petatons of durability” and simultaneously have any misses not completely wreak the ecology of the planet. Better hope no ship-ship combat happens within any level of significant atmosphere either.

    “Furthermore, Star Trek has insane sensors. They can track and detect objects moving at Warp, so it’s pretty much impossible to approach an enemy planet without being detected. That’s why the Federation, the Klingons, and the Romulans all regularly patrol their “neutral zones”, which separate their territories and make sure no one is trying to Warp in and blow up something important. It actually makes a lot of sense given the situation.”

    Problem being that it would only take one shot to wipe out life. If it was the enemies’ motivation, literally every battle around a planet would be like the planet destruction video, just with life-wiping instead of the total destruction of the planet. Some ships pop in, fire off a shot, life gone. That simple.

    Which is clearly not the case, because if it were so, the Xindi, instead of having to go out of their way to build and test and deploy some massive planet wrecking super weapon ala Death Star, they could’ve wiped out the perceived human threat by firing off a few shots with any random ship.

    Instead, we get this:
    www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8zsdIQe9UQ

    Which has impressive firepower for sure, but not “OMG you just turned the crust into the atmosphere!” I believe the scene following has people being like “OMG look at the devastation, what a powerful weapon!” not “Thank god they didn’t send a random ship and fired a single shot, gosh we got lucky!”

    “There is a distinct difference here. A yield as given by canonical events is automatically given precedence over what “the numbers say”, as the canonical event is what the creators wanted from their material, while their “numbers” could be some throw-away, space-filler line. For example:”

    Refining a bit here”

    “while their “numbers” could be some throw-away, space-filler line.”

    Which is like, exactly the case here. It’s basically a throwaway line. It doesn’t have any significant story importance, it isn’t backed up by the visuals, and it actually goes so far as to break the setting. It’s an offhand line trying to make numbers look big, exactly like any other technical spec claiming biggatons while not actually living up to it.

    “Claim: A tech manual gives numbers indicating that MAC’s should be in the Teratons.
    Effect in canon: The MAC’s demonstrate much lower yields.”

    See, the problem with that is that someone at 343i posted that, since MACs are dial-a-yield, all firepower calcs exist together as canon. Which is literally straight word of god that MACs have teraton firepower. It is literally impossible to be more canon than that. Except that’s ludicrously stupid and makes no sense in or out of universe, and thus shouldn’t be used in debates.

    “Claim: Star Trek weaponry is in the petatons worth of energy.
    Effect in canon: Star Trek weaponry destroys 30% of a planet’s crust.”

    See, here’s where things fall apart. You judge Star Wars and Halo yields based on the visuals, and proclaim that since the visuals don’t match the numbers (Provided by the developers themselves in the case of Halo), that we shouldn’t use them over the visuals. But when it comes to Star Trek, it’s the other way around. We should use an offhand statement giving us big numbers instead of the visuals that clearly contradict with the statement.

    “Yes, it’s very high-end and shouldn’t be the go-to number, but it is a canon event.”

    “It’s very-high end and we shouldn’t really use it for anything, but it’s still technically canon so we’ll use it anyways”

    I never said it wasn’t canon. I said that it was a setting-breaking high-end and shouldn’t hold any significance in a debate. Just like Star Wars gigatons (Which got all but erased with Disney canon anyways) and Halo Teratons (Which are canon as proclaimed by the developers themselves). When you make assumptions or comparisons about something against something else, you don’t look at the bell curve and base those assumptions on the data that sits on far right when your curve looks more like this (For Halo, Star Wars, and Star Trek for that matter):
    onlinestatbook.com/2/introduction/graphics/pos_skew.jpg

  9. Shgon Dunstan November 15, 2014 at 9:42 pm -      #209

    @Jolttra
    “Hey, I got a question real quick. Considering Treks most powerful weapons are all missiles, what’s to stop Wars ships from just blowing up those missile hundreds of km away with point defense weapons? Most ships have those, especially Old and New Republic era ships. And frigates like the Lancer and Nebulon specialise in shooting down incoming misdiles. And most corvettes can be easily modified to fulfill this task. So what does it matter how powerful Photon Torpedoes actually are if they never get a chance to hit their target?”

    …Why is it that people see “SW Vs ST” and always read it as “GE/GR Vs UFP”? :?

    The isn’t just Star Fleet here… Besides, I’d call nTrek’s super-teleporters SF most powerful weapon. :lol:

  10. Jolttra November 15, 2014 at 11:21 pm -      #210

    “…Why is it that people see “SW Vs ST” and always read it as “GE/GR Vs UFP”? :?”

    Idk. That’s just what it always seems to boil down to. Anway, most factions rely primarily on missile weapons. Seems like some well place point defense tech would really help.

  11. Kara Zor-El November 16, 2014 at 7:58 am -      #211

    Torpedoes aren’t missiles… They’re torpedoes. Seriously…

    Wars have equivalent, so tell me, can point defenses shoot down proton torpedoes?
    _
    Though you’ll have a job on, as photon and quantum torpedoes are fired at warp 1 Speeds. This is why they can be fired while a ship is at warp.

    Also, ‘hundreds of kms away’? Trek has shown to be able to fire at such distances with pin point accuracy, but I don’t think Wars has.

  12. Sauroposeidon November 16, 2014 at 8:53 am -      #212

    “Though you’ll have a job on, as photon and quantum torpedoes are fired at warp 1 Speeds. This is why they can be fired while a ship is at warp.”

    They could lean lazily to the left. That seems to always work for the heroes. They’re also clearly not going at Warp 1.

    The difference between Trek and Wars is Wars vessels tend to be engaging in world war II style evasive maneuvers a lot. With Trek, they tend to move in straight lines. In space, it doesn’t matter how fast you’re going, if you don’t randomize your movement you can always be easily hit. They usually are either moving in a straight line at warp or sitting in orbit of a planet. While this is more realistic than Wars pretending space is just air ships somehow sail through, it does explain their more realistic range engagements in some episodes. They never really explain why their torpedoes maintain warp velocities once they’re outside of the warp bubble though, which irked me. They should only be going the speed the ship is actually moving through its own real space, and once outside of the bubble should be run in to by the bubble, effectively making it so that eitherthe torpedo is run in to by the ship or the bubble “catches” the torpedo once it is back inside and pulls it along infront of the ship until they exit warp.. at which point it continues to go forward (as if it ever wasn’t) and distances itself from the ship. I think some writers realize this, which is why most of the time, namely in TNG, they wait until after they leave warp to fire. Once vessels begin to engage in evasive maneuvers, though, if a named character is on it, you practically need to be on top of it to hit it with a torpedo. Sometimes even phasers.

    This is of course space combat 101 for people who are used to games and sims which include space combat. >_>

  13. Kara Zor-El November 16, 2014 at 9:42 am -      #213

    “They could lean lazily to the left. That seems to always work for the heroes. They’re also clearly not going at Warp 1.”
    _
    While sub-light speed torpedoes don’t seem to be shot at warp 1, they are fired while a vessel is at warp, and that’s the explanation they used as to why it can happen. I assumed, you’re going warp 5, fire a torpedo, which is fired at warp 1, shouldn’t that add to the speed, so it’s going at a faster speed than Warp 5? So it can catch up to, and hit the vessel in front. Ofc, phasers fired at warp make no real sense, but then, treknobabble I assume.
    _
    If you watch the Dominion Wars fighting scenes, or even in Nemesis, ships don’t fly at each other straight, they go all over the place. They still fight at CQC, though so do Wars ships, and they really shouldn’t need to, especially considering the range Trek ships can actually fire at.

  14. Sauroposeidon November 16, 2014 at 10:18 am -      #214

    Except torpedos don’t have their own warp engines, to my knowledge. If they did, ships wouldn’t need to ever be as big as they are.

    Also, to give you an idea of why they do CQC..

    In Armored Core, we use weapons which fire bullets that move anywhere from 700 to 1500 meters per second. We dodge them, with relative ease. These aren’t just fluff numbers, these are hard stats used to help balance the myriad of toys you get to play with.

    Now, I don’t have any better reaction time than you, so how do I do it? Range. I remain roughly 700-900 meters out from my opponent. This gives me enough time to dodge the attack with a simple slide in one direction or the other.

    At the distances you can hit shit in space accurately, even with FTL weapons, the enemy has often a second or more to move. Even a kilometer long ship can likely get out the way very easily because it’s probably traveling 3-5km per second anyways already. All it would have to do is tap the retro thrusters half a second before impact and immediately you’re gonna miss.

    This is why even in very advanced sci-fi settings, ships which can dodge can only be taken out when with in a few hundred kilometers of each other on average.

    Supposedly, Wars ships can nail stuff beyond visual range.. but they never will fight at those ranges because they’d never hit a thinking target with anything but macross missile massacre style attacks, since smart weapons can adjust course.

    The ability for trek torpedoes to adjust course is.. limited.

    I hope that explains why both sides so routinely fight at close ranges even if in theory they could hit something much further away than that.

  15. Kara Zor-El November 16, 2014 at 10:38 am -      #215

    “Except torpedos don’t have their own warp engines, to my knowledge. If they did, ships wouldn’t need to ever be as big as they are.”
    _
    I think they do, I’m not entirely sure. Torpedoes in Trek have been used in a multitude of ways, even ferrying people. I mean, I suppose they just fire it and a direction and hope it doesn’t hit anything until it reaches where it should go, or, it has guidance systems. Which Trek torpedoes do have, they’re just usually launched in a straight line for… whatever reason. They ship’s dead ahead, I suppose.
    _
    While I understand the CQC for that reason, it’s said in Trek plenty of times that “firing torpedoes while we’re this close will destroy us too!” Like when they first met the Borg. Not that visuals often show that amount of punch. But they should fight from some distance, not right next to each other. Technically anyway.

  16. Sauroposeidon November 16, 2014 at 11:00 am -      #216

    “Which Trek torpedoes do have, they’re just usually launched in a straight line for… whatever reason.”

    They probably prefer manual aiming. The plot prediction capabilities of the torpedoes may not be that great. They probably pack enough reserve power to adjust course once or twice but the torpedoes themselves are tiny, so that probably explains why they don’t have the energy to really adjust course much. Even when they do adjust course, it’s usually to hit a target that’s still moving in a straight line, the torpedo just happened to not be on the correct course. Torpedo spreads which adjust course would also completely defeat the purpose of the spread.

    You also won’t see a big bang in space, usually, since there’s no atmosphere to eat the energy released from the explosion. Nukes pop like camera flashes is how I hear it goes in space. This is why you see a big ball of wobbly light that flickers for a few seconds and that’s it when nukes get used in space in sci fi.

    I honestly don’t know why they don’t use directional explosives in Trek. We developed them for use in space in real life already.

    There also appears to be a sort of “tactical torpedo” which gets used later on, which is much weaker and can be used in dog fighting repeatedly with no damage to the attacker or near by vessels.

    When Star Trek was first invented, it wasn’t tactical nukes that were on people’s minds as the future of atomic warfare.It was strategic nukes. It continues to be even in to the creation of TNG if I recall. The fear that one missile can life wipe an entire planet, namely Earth, was a strong one, and a central theme in a lot of older sci-fi. I believe this is why even though we did develop “tactical” WMD’s in modern times..Trek seems to only have the strategic kind for a long time.

    So really, it’s impossible to know how strong those tactical torpedoes are. Best estimates can come from the estimates based on Enterprise-D being able to destroy that hollow asteroid, and even those are for Strategic only. We could perhaps use simple math from there. Get an estimate on how far away they were from the Borg ship they couldn’t fire on. Then get an estimate on the closest another vessel has been to a “tactical torpedo”.

    We use from the asteroid calcs to know how strong a strategic torpedo is. Then get an idea about how much energy from that would be hitting the enterprise (based on energy drop off at range from the center of the explosion). From there we scale down the yield until that level of energy is what would be just dropped under by the time the explosion from the tactical torpedo would have hit the vessel that launched it.

    Does that make sense? I know there’s going to be high and low end estimates for it.. and they might be wildly different.. but since we know torpedoes can have adjustable yields it should help you explain and understand the close range torpedoes and get an idea of how strong they are.

    I should also mention that the closer you are to your enemy in Trek, the harder of a time they have getting the weapons to train their sights on you. The klingons occasionally use manual aim, and they had good results with that.. but for some reason they usually avoid doing such.

  17. Kara Zor-El November 16, 2014 at 11:32 am -      #217

    For numbers and math, you’d have to speak to Aelfinn I think, it’s not my strongest point.
    _
    If you look at a model of a Fed ship, they have Phaser strips everywhere, they should be able to hit a target in any direction, torpedoes are slightly more limited. Romulan and Klingon Disrupters however aren’t as versatile.

  18. Sauroposeidon November 16, 2014 at 12:45 pm -      #218

    Yes, they can hit a target from nearly any direction. But the problem is if the weapon can direct itself fast enough to do so. The Defiant once survived a fight against the much more powerful Neghvar-class by closing too tightly for the disruptor banks to accurately aim at them.

  19. Kara Zor-El November 16, 2014 at 1:01 pm -      #219

    I did mention that Klingon Disruptors weren’t as versatile as phaser strips.

  20. Sauroposeidon November 16, 2014 at 2:02 pm -      #220

    “I did mention that Klingon Disruptors weren’t as versatile as phaser strips.”

    My point is beam weapons do miss in Trek, and being closer is again, combat 101. It’s harder to train your weapon on something that’s closer.

    Phasers can and do miss.

  21. Kara Zor-El November 16, 2014 at 3:04 pm -      #221

    I never said they didn’t though.

  22. Sauroposeidon November 16, 2014 at 3:35 pm -      #222

    You seemed to imply that the cases of disruptors missing is special and should not be used.

  23. Aelfinn November 16, 2014 at 3:38 pm -      #223

    “So I guess the Covenant have Petatons now?”

    You could make that argument, yes. Glassing a planet isn’t exactly easy. For a high-end, of course. As I’ve said once, and I’ll say again, and you seem to be ignoring: I admit that every franchise has a wide range to yields. This is simply the establishment of yields on the high-end.
    =
    “Except for the Die is Cast episode apparently. I mean, Halo, Mass Effect, Star Trek, Star Wars and so on are all universes where planets are defended in relatively lengthy space battles above them.”

    Uhhh, you literally ignored my argument. Like, I said a thing, and you acted as if I didn’t say that thing. Let me say it again: Star Trek rarely has wars in it, and those wars happen far from any planet. They do not have lengthy space battles where planets are defended directly below them. That just HASN’T happened. It’s probably one of the main reasons why detractors of Star Trek call it “boring”, there isn’t a whole lot of fighting going on. You act as if it’s a common occurrence, when it’s NOT.
    =
    “Some ships pop in”

    Again, you are ignoring what I am saying. No ship can just “pop in”. Ships can be tracked and detected while going FTL in Star Trek, unlike Star Wars, Halo, and Warhammer 40K, which all rely on a different dimension. You are creating a hypothetical scenario that just doesn’t exist. One of the things that makes Species 8472 so dangerous is that they CAN just “pop in”. But that is just NOT FEASIBLE with Federation/Klingon/Romulan technology.
    =
    ” It doesn’t have any significant story importance”

    YES, it does. The Cardassians and the Romulans launched this attack in an attempt to wipe out the Founders. They scanned the planet for life-forms, and saw that they were there. However, when they “Destroyed 30% of the planet’s crust”, those life-signs didn’t change. Remember? The guy goes “Impossible, some of them had to be killed!” This clues them into the fact that the Founders had been feeding them false life-sign data, and directly after that, the Founders spring their trap and destroy the fleet. It plays a direct role in the story that despite destroying 30% of the surface, that had been the Founder’s plan all along.
    =
    “See, here’s where things fall apart. You judge Star Wars and Halo yields based on the visuals, and proclaim that since the visuals don’t match the numbers (Provided by the developers themselves in the case of Halo), that we shouldn’t use them over the visuals.”

    Visuals aren’t the be-all, end-all. Feats are. Visuals are generally more effective, but Feats can come from Dialogue as well. It’s when Dialogue is used as a Claim that it becomes trumped by Visual evidence. Dialogue was not used as a claim here. It all comes down to “what happens when this thing is used”, and the animators trying to save money does not trump the plot-important detail that “a shitton of the crust was destroyed”.
    =
    =
    Also, the Xindi probe is hundreds of years old as of current Trek. In seventy years, on Earth, we went from “top-secret, labor of a nation, Manhattan project” to “Oh, North Korea has nukes now”.
    =
    =
    You might appreciate this, TMTWA: in the original series, the crew faced a vampire creature that just couldn’t be killed by anything they did. So they decided to use the biggest explosion they could. They siphoned off one gram of antimatter from the Warp core and lured the creature to it. Now, the “one gram” is clearly incorrect in terms of science, but this was a blast that, as Spock put it, “will rip away half the planet’s atmosphere”. The ship, despite being in space, felt a massive shockwave from it, which indicates that the atmosphere was indeed thrown out into space. It also left a massive crater.
    www.ditl.org/pagarticle.php?ArticleID=9&ListID=Articles
    The man on that site calc’s it to 36 petatons.

  24. Kara Zor-El November 16, 2014 at 3:43 pm -      #224

    “You seemed to imply that the cases of disruptors missing is special and should not be used.”
    _
    I’m not sure how you read into my statements that way, but allow me to clarify then. I meant, due to a Federation ships, weapons set up, it could engage an enemy no matter where it is, while disrupters are usually fixed in certain area’s and as such they don’t have as diverse an arc in which to engage an enemy.

  25. the_man_with The_Answers November 16, 2014 at 7:47 pm -      #225

    “You could make that argument, yes. Glassing a planet isn’t exactly easy. For a high-end, of course.”

    I would never even attempt to make that argument because it is preposterous. Regardless of how much I like Halo or how often I debate for it, asserting the notion that the Covenant have Petatons is absurd even if they have a handful of feats to back it up. It doesn’t make a modicum of sense from within the universe or out of it.

    “This is simply the establishment of yields on the high-end.”

    Which in a debate is utterly meaningless. “Establishing high end yields” only inserts the implication that those feats are going to be replicable within the debate with some form of frequency. Which shouldn’t be the case at all.

    Say I have two sets of water samples from different reservoirs. I’m trying to determine which is the superior through an arbitrary need for higher concentrations of chloride anions. Sample Set A has, let’s say an average of 10,000ppm, excluding a high-end outlier sample that has 20,000ppm. Sample Set B on the other hand has an average of 7,000ppm, excluding a high end sample with 30,000ppm (Basically sea water). Sample Set B might have the higher outlier, but that is totally irrelevant to the fact that Sample Set A is consistently higher as far as the typical values go, and thus Sample Set A would be the superior for my arbitrary needs.

    It’s basically the same reason nobody makes broad decisions based off of the far right of a bell curve, especially if that bell curve has a positive skew.

    “Uhhh, you literally ignored my argument. Like, I said a thing, and you acted as if I didn’t say that thing. Let me say it again: Star Trek rarely has wars in it, and those wars happen far from any planet. They do not have lengthy space battles where planets are defended directly below them. That just HASN’T happened.”

    So the Breen totally never attacked Earth directly. Totally didn’t get within range to cause significant damage to San Fransisco, instead of, you know, one shotting the population of Earth. The Borg have totally never gotten into Earth orbit before. Narendra 3 never had an orbital battle above it in which the planet was bombarded and life remained. Khitomer never faced an orbital battle in which the planet was bombarded and the population wasn’t immediately dead after the first few shots. The list goes on.

    “Again, you are ignoring what I am saying. No ship can just “pop in”. Ships can be tracked and detected while going FTL in Star Trek, unlike Star Wars, Halo, and Warhammer 40K, which all rely on a different dimension. You are creating a hypothetical scenario that just doesn’t exist.”

    Which is why multiple planets have received “surprise bombardments” and not been totally life-wiped. I mean, if any other ship could life wipe a planet, you would have to have something akin to a 0% defense failure rate. Otherwise one single shot could devastate your entire faction or galactic polity. Nobody is perfect. So what if they can detect the incoming ships? That doesn’t necessarily mean the ship can’t get close enough for a single shot.

    For a modern day example, the US has the largest and most well equipped Navy in the world, and the two largest and most well equipped air forces. We easily have the ability to not only detect airliners, but to destroy them rather casually. Yet, because nobody is perfect, 3 were managed to be used as giant missiles against 3 extremely important US targets (would have been 4 if the crew of one plane didn’t take action). If this were scaled up to Star Trek, instead of causing relatively minor collateral damage (on the scale of the country), those 3 airliners would have wiped New York State’s and DC’s entire population

    The fact the the Breen could land shots on Earth testifies to the fact that Earth’s defenses are not infallible (and also that they can’t just life-wipe a city, let alone a whole planet, in a single shot).

    “YES, it does. The Cardassians and the Romulans launched this attack in an attempt to wipe out the Founders. They scanned the planet for life-forms, and saw that they were there. However, when they “Destroyed 30% of the planet’s crust”, those life-signs didn’t change. Remember?”

    The number itself has no importance to the story what so ever. You could change it to “20% of the crust” or “10% of the crust” or “all major cities” or whatever and the story would remain perfectly untouched in that they would still be super shocked that life-sign readings didn’t change. My point being that the line is just about as much of a “throw away” as any technical number out there. Especially when it contradicts itself with its own visuals. I mean, you can claim low budget special effects, but I’ve seen more impressive looking explosions and what not from 1970’s special effects.
    www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tGrS9n6RKw
    Shitty low budget 1993 “Troll 3″ can even make better explosion effects, so I don’t take quite as much heed in that excuse. For reference:
    www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tGrS9n6RKw

    “Visuals aren’t the be-all, end-all. Feats are. Visuals are generally more effective, but Feats can come from Dialogue as well. It’s when Dialogue is used as a Claim that it becomes trumped by Visual evidence. Dialogue was not used as a claim here. It all comes down to “what happens when this thing is used”, and the animators trying to save money does not trump the plot-important detail that “a shitton of the crust was destroyed”.”

    The crust being 30% missing isn’t critical to the plot at all as I explained already. And older shitty low budget films can create cooler looking explosions. And I see your “Well the feat is directly stated in dialogue” and raise you one “Halo Teratons are literally word of god.” Doesn’t change the fact that nobody accepts them, and rightly shouldn’t. Because stupid high-ends don’t belong in debates for any purpose beyond dick waving (Which as it turns out, many star ships across fiction look phallus-like, so…).

    “Also, the Xindi probe is hundreds of years old as of current Trek. In seventy years, on Earth, we went from “top-secret, labor of a nation, Manhattan project” to “Oh, North Korea has nukes now”.”

    And yet there are multiple occurrences in the 24th century where ships bombard planets with extreme prejudice and the population not only persists after the first shot, but after the whole affair.

    “You might appreciate this, TMTWA: in the original series, the crew faced a vampire creature that just couldn’t be killed by anything they did. So they decided to use the biggest explosion they could. They siphoned off one gram of antimatter from the Warp core and lured the creature to it. Now, the “one gram” is clearly incorrect in terms of science, but this was a blast that, as Spock put it, “will rip away half the planet’s atmosphere”. The ship, despite being in space, felt a massive shockwave from it, which indicates that the atmosphere was indeed thrown out into space. It also left a massive crater.
    www.ditl.org/pagarticle.php?ArticleID=9&ListID=Articles
    The man on that site calc’s it to 36 petatons.”

    Another case of dialogue contradicting visuals (and itself), except in the opposite direction. And I’m more inclined to believe the latter. It’s definitely more representative of Petatons than it is its “actual” value of basically a Megaton. My issue is with the authors interpolations afterwards. It’s abundantly clear the writers have no idea how antimatter works and were just throwing around cool words and numbers. So, knowing that, and then extrapolating off of it is just silly. The same can be done with Halo. All you have to do is take a pinch of game mechanics, and a few loose interpretations, and you can end up with Halo assault rifles that shoot Exatons. I’m dead serious.

    Also, 36 Petatons for a “WOW! So devastating! Much DOOM!” explosion, bigger than anything they can produce otherwise, is a far cry from ships casually throwing out 5x that energy with every shot.

  26. pimpmage November 16, 2014 at 8:27 pm -      #226

    Hey guys, I brought this up like twice before. Would halo and 40k be able to travel through these wormholes while in slipspace/warp? Surely these wormholes should allow beings from alternate dimensions to pass through. How silly would it be if warp demons must first materialize in real space and then hop onto a troop transport through the wormhole… lol.

  27. Darth Bombad November 16, 2014 at 8:49 pm -      #227

    A note on the Xindi probe the component that makes it work comes from the year
    2573 long after the TNG era, so its a pretty inaccurate yard stick of development.
    A weapon that powerful couldn’t be built in the 22nd or even 24th centuries.

    Assuming (logically) that the sphere builders got the component from the
    earliest available time that such weapons could be built/power generated.

    @pimpmage
    Even if they could HALO would be immediately stomped, not sure about
    the Warp Demons though i don’t know 40k very well.

  28. Tyran November 18, 2014 at 4:10 pm -      #228

    The IoM can use its massive defense fleet over Terra to capture both sides of the portal. After that gave everybody in 40k Halo’s slipspace drives.

    With that upgrade Team 2 can hunt down and invade/destroy any SW world unopposed. Planetary Shields? jumping inside them makes them useless.

  29. Darth Bombad November 18, 2014 at 7:12 pm -      #229

    Composite Star Wars fleet is Huge! probably bigger than IOM’s and their
    ships are superior to 40k’s in just about every way if anything they’ll capture
    the other side of the wormhole, and World Devastate them freely.

    And source on slipstream being able to bypass shield’s? because i
    don’t recall that ever happening in HALO, was it from a book?.

  30. Malenfant November 18, 2014 at 8:27 pm -      #230

    The Forerunner Fleet should be equal in size at the very least, an old backwater installation was capable of producing a Sentinel/six seconds;

    “A pyramid five times the height of the Great Pyramid of Giza sat kilometers from Kurt’s vantage. Instead of stone blocks, however, the structure was composed of floating golden spheres that turned and glowed with Forerunner hieroglyphs etched upon their surfaces.

    Every six seconds a sphere from the apex of the pyramid ascended in a shaft of silver light. As it rose, the light intensified so even with maximum polarization on his faceplate Kurt could not discern what occurred there. When the sphere emerged, three rods accompanied it, all parts spinning in null gravity, flexing, until the pieces settled into their deadly recognizable configuration a Sentinel of Onyx.

    The new drone flew off into the clouds overhead which Kurt could only estimate were thousands of completed units.”~Ghosts of Onyx

    As noted above just a hundred or so (estimate based off the ill-defined passage) Sentinels could destroy the Halo equivalent of a Star Destroyer, with this rate you could potentially have a force nearing fifteen thousand units per day, ie basically 150 Star Destroyers. I don’t think Star Wars can match that.

  31. Tyran November 18, 2014 at 10:16 pm -      #231

    And source on slipstream being able to bypass shield’s? because i
    don’t recall that ever happening in HALO, was it from a book?.


    Slipspace is a wholly separate dimension, objects in this dimension don’t affect Slipspace. Any physical barrier in real-space means nothing in Slipspace.

    An example is the Flood jumping inside High Charity.

    Also both Star Trek and 40K have their own teleportation tech that could let them bypass SW shielding.

  32. KASHMIRE777 November 18, 2014 at 10:24 pm -      #232

    Star Trek teleportation does not work with shields up. If that was the case every space battle would end in teleporting a bomb on the bridge. Also forerunners are not in this debate unless they are currently alive.

  33. Darth Bombad November 18, 2014 at 10:30 pm -      #233

    I’m pretty sure the op is going with no composite for team 2 that means
    no Forerunners except a few crazy rogues like the Didact.
    So all HALO has is a shattered Covenant and an extremely primitive UNSC.

    And few in Star Trek can put up much of a fight except maybe the Borg
    and species 87…4…whatever! the fluid guys.
    You know just once i’d like to see Star Trek argue with its main factions
    (The Federation, Romulans, Klingons, Cardassians) instead of its plot points.

  34. Shgon Dunstan November 18, 2014 at 10:35 pm -      #234

    @KASHMIRE777

    With the nTrek transporters, that would basically mean that SW would need to keep everything shielded 24/7… Forevermore. As they’d never be able to tell when there is a ship/planet in range to use them.

  35. KASHMIRE777 November 18, 2014 at 10:37 pm -      #235

    @DarthBombad
    Good luck with that. I like Star Trek but everybody only really talks about the one (insert technobabble here) that would seem to be rather effective if they replicated it again but the show usually forgets about the next episode.

  36. Shgon Dunstan November 18, 2014 at 10:42 pm -      #236

    Yeah… It’s not like SW EVER tries pulling out the one off super weapons… :roll:

  37. KASHMIRE777 November 18, 2014 at 10:45 pm -      #237

    Shields in Star Wars are always up until taken down usually by an enemy during combat. So unless they are going to observe every ship and planet and perfectly time a transport I don’t see how that helps them much. Also that assumes that Star Trek knows when something Star Wars related is unshielded.

  38. Tyran November 18, 2014 at 10:47 pm -      #238

    I’m pretty sure the op is going with no composite for team 2 that means
    no Forerunners except a few crazy rogues like the Didact.
    So all HALO has is a shattered Covenant and an extremely primitive UNSC.


    It also has the Flood, which is a very terrifying biological weapon. A ship jumping around the SW galaxy disseminating the Flood is going to end badly for the SW galaxy.

  39. KASHMIRE777 November 18, 2014 at 10:52 pm -      #239

    Star Wars has a shit ton of Super Weapons but they A never forget about them and actually mention them especially during the Vong war saying how it could have been helpful but the New Republic didn’t want the bad name associated with owning them. And B they are super weapons that isn’t something easy to replicate unless you’re a Galactic Empire with trillions of resources and don’t mind lying and oppressing people to build them.

  40. KASHMIRE777 November 18, 2014 at 10:55 pm -      #240

    “It also has the Flood, which is a very terrifying biological weapon. A ship jumping around the SW galaxy disseminating the Flood is going to end badly for the SW galaxy.”

    First how big is the current Flood and second how will they get magically into Star Wars space

  41. Tyran November 18, 2014 at 11:09 pm -      #241

    First how big is the current Flood and second how will they get magically into Star Wars space


    I guess by the wormhole, a ship in Slipspace is practically untouchable and it can go anywhere it wants. And there are plenty of Flood in stasis in the Forerunner installations (kinda stupid on their part, but it helps in this scenario).

    Also for defense, as the Emperor and the Chaos Gods are best pals now, so he can simply stop suppressing the Warp Portal under the Golden Throne. Terra and the neighboring sectors would become a Warp Rift, making it practically impossible for SW to invade 40k.

  42. Darth Bombad November 18, 2014 at 11:14 pm -      #242

    Superweapons are one thing but Trek’s only defence is always the same.
    “This one episode they met a guy who farts and a universe dies,
    and when he blinks a new universe is born so Trek wins”.


    Whereas a Wars argument is usually Star Destroyers, Clone Army, The Empire, Jedi,
    Sith, and yes Superweapons things that are important to the core of Star Wars.

    Not plot points that appear for half an episode then disappear forever.
    No one ever thinks that Kirk or The Enterprise will have an effect cause they can’t,
    But Grand Master Luke, The Grand Army or the Jedi Order just might.

    Trek may win because of bad writing, toon force physics and plot holes,
    but your heroes the core of the series can do nothing so who really wins here?.

  43. pimpmage November 18, 2014 at 11:26 pm -      #243

    “Composite Star Wars fleet is Huge! probably bigger than IOM’s and their
    ships are superior to 40k’s in just about every way”

    Dude, I have read other threads before this that put 40k shielding tech so far above star wars. There was a quote about a 40k capital ship’s shields surviving an impact with a planet. The resulting shockwave from the shields failing vaporized the entire planet’s surface. Also, many, many sources claim 40k ship combat can last weeks. Shielding that can withstand day after day of hits from 40k level ship weaponry. And about those weapons, those weapons have been quoted to vaporize oceans and wipe continents clean of life with a few barrages.

    Also, about ship numbers. The current era of the imperium is at its weakest in 10k years. It is literally at the weakest incarnation.

  44. Alpha or Omega November 19, 2014 at 12:23 am -      #244

    @Darth Bombad
    “And few in Star Trek can put up much of a fight except maybe the Borg”
    /
    You do realize that the man with the answers also countered Star Wars gigatons by pointing out that those figures are high end as well.
    /
    Not only does it put the fire power of Star Wars to be even with Star Trek, it also allows Halo to become a threat to Star Wars.
    /
    @Kashmiretripleseven
    “Star Trek teleportation does not work with shields up.”
    /
    On the other hand, shielding from Aldeans could not block teleportaion and neither could Voth’s shield block teleportation.
    Furthermore, the Borg’s teleportation is technologically advanced enough to get through shielding.
    Star Wars on the other hand has shown no defense to teleportation into ships.

  45. Darth Bombad November 19, 2014 at 12:31 am -      #245

    #1 40k was heavily wanked during old debates most don’t accept that crap anymore.

    #2 Warp storms only effect those who travel by warp drive Star Wars is unaffected.

    #3 If you wanna talk about bio-weapons Star Wars has the Rakghoul Plague
    Blue Shadow virus weaponised Exogorths and other horrible things.

  46. Tyran November 19, 2014 at 12:53 am -      #246

    Warp storms only effect those who travel by warp drive Star Wars is unaffected.

    A Warp Rift is not the same as a Warp Storm. A Warp Rift is a section where the Materium and Immaterium are one.

    #3 If you wanna talk about bio-weapons Star Wars has the Rakghoul Plague
    Blue Shadow virus weaponised Exogorths and other horrible things.


    Neither is as aggressive nor dangerous as the Flood.

  47. Neon Lord November 19, 2014 at 12:53 am -      #247

    “#2 Warp storms only effect those who travel by warp drive Star Wars is unaffected.”

    Um, no. Warp storms screw over anything in real space as well.
    =
    40k teleportation at least can go through shields pretty easy. And 40k boarding teams are actually really effective at their role.

  48. Darth Bombad November 19, 2014 at 1:41 am -      #248

    The Blue Shadow Virus is an almost incurable 100% fatal pathogen that
    no species is immune to, the Rakghoul are aggressive highly infectious
    monsters that are based in both science and Sith magic meaning it’s incurable
    and even advanced bio-containment tech can’t protect you.

    And under the control of the Murr Talismon the Rakghoul are just as smart
    and deadly as a coordinated Flood hive, especially if a Sith is in control.

    The Flood are a weak slow and stupid fungus the fact that they decimate
    the forces of HALO is just further proof of how badly they suck.

    I doubt the Star Wars galaxy would even notice the presence of the Flood.
    They faced far worse at the hands of the Vong, who are now on their side.
    Soooo….speaking of bio-weapons…yeah Terra’s getting Vongformed.

  49. the_man_with The_Answers November 19, 2014 at 2:49 am -      #249

    “The Flood are a weak slow and stupid fungus the fact that they decimate
    the forces of HALO is just further proof of how badly they suck.”

    Weak, slow, and stupid. Yeah, okay buddy.

    On practically any scale short of basic carrier and infection forms, the Flood are nowhere near weak. Unless you think that the most basic combat unit of the Flood in its least coordinated stage eating up the majority of a 60 round magazine of 7.62x51mm is “weak.” And being able to get up from that even, granted an infection form finds the body. From there things just scale up rapidly, to tank forms that generally require heavy weapons to put down, to Thrashers which are capable of withstanding 90mm tanks shells and breaching tank armor, to entire Flood mountains that attack the entire biosphere and atmosphere of a planet.

    The Flood, on all scales, are also incredibly fast and agile. Their infection rate is insane. You go from “Hey, what’s up buddy” to “Ermghfgdf!!! *rips your friend’s face off*” in about a minute or 2 from a bite or scratch, down to 5 seconds or so from an infection form. In a few hours they turned High Charity, a moon-sized, highly weaponized capital city filled with super human aliens armed to the teeth from this:
    img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080530211751/halo/images/f/fa/High_Charitypic.jpg
    into this:
    img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080529200235/halo/images/2/2c/Flood_Charity.png
    In Halo 3, if the Flood had not been glassed in 15 minutes from impact, Earth would have fallen in hours. Against the Forerunners, they would infect entire planets of billions in less than a day, save for a few extremely well fortified positions that were only estimated to last another week at most. Spread rate was so fast that the Ancient Humans and Forerunners, upon seeing the Flood had begun spreading on the planet, said “Well, that planets is lost, better just blow it up and maybe the solar system with it.” Which didn’t end up slowing the Flood down on the galactic scale.

    As for intelligence, the Gravemind/Keymind have displayed immense hacking ability. As well as the ability to manipulate people to a high degree. Even feral, uncoordinated Flood was beginning to repair Truth and Reconciliation on 04, despite never having come in contact with Covenant ships before. Then there’s the logic plague and what not where the Flood really get ridiculous.

    “I doubt the Star Wars galaxy would even notice the presence of the Flood.
    They faced far worse at the hands of the Vong, who are now on their side.
    Soooo….speaking of bio-weapons…yeah Terra’s getting Vongformed.”

    The Vong+Flood=Star Wars is doomed. Yeah, let’s totally deploy our 100% biological forces against an incurable viral/parasitic entity that has a 100% infection rate against 100% of victims and spreads/learns extremely rapidly (So rapidly that an infection form infecting a human should actually set the room on fire).

    The Forerunners are decidedly superior to the vast majority of Star Wars, and the Flood couldn’t be stopped by them, so what makes you think Star Wars stand better of a chance? Especially when vessels with hyperdrives are extremely common allowing Flood infection vectors to be nearly unpredictable and extremely numerous.

  50. Neon Lord November 19, 2014 at 3:00 am -      #250

    “The Flood are a weak slow and stupid fungus”

    Someone has no idea what they are talking about.

    “The Blue Shadow Virus is an almost incurable 100% fatal pathogen that no species is immune to”

    The 40k Life Eater virus is even better, since it basically turns all organic matter on a planet into goo in a matter of minutes/hours (I can’t remember). Sealed armour does nothing gagainst it. Its decomposition effects also fills the atmosphere with flammable gases, which can be ignited from orbit to create a planetwide firestorm.

    “And under the control of the Murr Talismon the Rakghoul are just as smart
    and deadly as a coordinated Flood hive, especially if a Sith is in control.”-

    From what I see on the wiki, the Rakghoul are, in essence, zombies. They aren’t going to do much at all. Only one Murr Talisman exists so the smart-zombie horde will be extremely limited and easily taken out.

    “Soooo….speaking of bio-weapons…yeah Terra’s getting Vongformed”

    Tyranids. Enough said.

  51. General Joshua Hundell of the Trans-Dimentional Fleet November 19, 2014 at 4:07 am -      #251

    Dont feel like reading 3 pages of bs can any one fill me in on current op status

  52. Darth Bombad November 19, 2014 at 6:05 am -      #252

    @General…
    Star Wars is EU composite team 2 are current incarnation only, no omnipatents.
    And sadly Wars most likely can’t win though they’ll make it hell of a fight.

    @Neon and the man without answers
    So The Flood can take bullets from modern guns bravo (slow clap) Blasters
    are far more than they can take, and they burn which is perfect for fighting Flood.
    Add to that an army of vacuum sealed soldiers and trillions of lifeless droids.

    Then yeah i’d say Star Wars has little to fear from them, especially since any
    Flood that MAY be unleashed would be from the wild uncoordinated stage.

    The Forerunners are superior only when severely wanked, how they lost
    when they had all they did is one of the stupidest things ever,
    there’s no good answer so don’t even try their canon is a hot mess.

  53. Tyran November 19, 2014 at 9:13 am -      #253

    So The Flood can take bullets from modern guns bravo (slow clap) Blasters
    are far more than they can take, and they burn which is perfect for fighting Flood.
    Add to that an army of vacuum sealed soldiers and trillions of lifeless droids.

    Which are hilariously outnumbered by the amount of civilians in SW.

    Plus, the Logic Plague will make droid armies a very bad idea.

  54. Sauroposeidon November 19, 2014 at 9:29 am -      #254

    “Tyranids. Enough said.”

    I always feel bad for these guys, since as soon as you take their plot shield away they get stomped miserably in to the ground by virtually any other sci-fi faction.

  55. Tyran November 19, 2014 at 9:33 am -      #255

    I always feel bad for these guys, since as soon as you take their plot shield away they get stomped miserably in to the ground by virtually any other sci-fi faction.

    They are faring quite well in 40k. Their only mayor weakness is that they are slow, but everyone is slow in 40k.

  56. the_man_with The_Answers November 19, 2014 at 10:36 am -      #256

    “Add to that an army of vacuum sealed soldiers and trillions of lifeless droids.”

    Just admit that you have no idea about what you are talking about.

    Literally every Forerunner civilian wears vacuum sealed armor that is capable of preventing all diseases (Except for the Flood), healing lethal amounts of radiation almost immediately, allowing them to go without sleep, and so on. Forerunner military units wear armor and mech suits that is even more insane. Like “Watch me fly in form orbit and bomb your city on my own.” Not to mention the massive majority of Forerunner combat units where, in fact, lifeless drones (With a lot more firepower than their Star Wars equivalents).

    How did that work for the Forerunners? Oh yeah, it didn’t. Because the Flood is also capable of infecting artificial intelligence as well.

    The Flood in Star Wars would be like an infinitely hungry child in a room full of candy.

  57. OberHerr November 19, 2014 at 10:43 am -      #257

    Your saying Halo…..has a messed up canon….when its actually very clear….and your representing SW…..k.

  58. Sauroposeidon November 19, 2014 at 11:50 am -      #258

    “They are faring quite well in 40k. Their only mayor weakness is that they are slow, but everyone is slow in 40k.”

    40k plot shields the ever living hell out of them, and even then they’re the canon fodder faction. Even the Tau, who barely garrison their worlds at all, held off on them. One sept world stopped an entire Tyranid invasion with only three suits. They exist to get squished, pretty much.

  59. Tyran November 19, 2014 at 12:42 pm -      #259

    40k plot shields the ever living hell out of them, and even then they’re the canon fodder faction. Even the Tau, who barely garrison their worlds at all, held off on them. One sept world stopped an entire Tyranid invasion with only three suits. They exist to get squished, pretty much.

    Quotes please?

    Also it is the Tau, no one has plot shields as large as them.

  60. Sauroposeidon November 19, 2014 at 12:55 pm -      #260

    Quotes please?”

    The Tau have only really encountered the Tyranids once, aren’t you familiar? The whole reason their broadsides have ridiculous levels of dakka now is so that they have enough ammo to deal with nids now.

    And of course, the entire back story on the R’varna.

    And the Tau don’t have plot shielding. They just fight with modern tactics using Sun Tzu’s philosophy, or their own take on it. With better technology and actual strategy/tactics at their disposal they’re probably the most realistic faction in what is essentially a comedy game about putting medieval fantasy tropes in space and then letting them fight each other as if war hadn’t changed at all.

    The Tyranids are slow, biological opponents who don’t adapt fast enough to make any real difference and the only reason they aren’t defeated immediately during any invasion since EVERYONE has more muscle than them is because the plot says so. Out of all the bio-races in sci-fi they’re some of the worst. Compare them to the Undine or the Vorlons for instance. Those fuckers get shit done and in canon actually have the strength to do it. The ‘nids.. well there’s a reason they’ve lost nearly every single match they’ve been in on the ‘pile, while other 40k factions tend to do fairly well. They are, simply put, badly designed. They aren’t very powerful, especially by their own universe’s standards. It takes every plot contrivance in the book for them to gain a beach head and actually get work done and the fact that they ever win any fleet engagements at all is there to basically shoe horn them in to the plot further.

  61. Sauroposeidon November 19, 2014 at 12:57 pm -      #261

    www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/R/Rvarna.pdf

    img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20140506231514/wh40k/pl/images/b/b0/R'varna.jpg

    In case you’re unfamiliar with the R’varna.

  62. the_man_with The_Answers November 19, 2014 at 1:24 pm -      #262

    The Tyranid’s aren’ really all that super amazing in this match. It takes them what, weeks or months to take over a planet and subvert the bio and atmosphere. And travel dreadfully slow. The Flood on the other hand, with access to slipspace, can travel very quickly, and can subsume entire planetary ecosystems on the time frame of mere days, or even hours if they’ve progressed far enough.

  63. Tyran November 19, 2014 at 3:11 pm -      #263

    The Tau have only really encountered the Tyranids once, aren’t you familiar? The whole reason their broadsides have ridiculous levels of dakka now is so that they have enough ammo to deal with nids now.

    They actually had several encounters, in one they went to cry for help to the Dark Eldar.

    And the Tau don’t have plot shielding.

    Excuse me but what? The Tau would be dead if the IoM wasn’t to occupied fighting the Tyranids, or if Kraken had arrived a little more to the galactic south or if anyone actually bothered to kill them and not use super small forces against them.


    The Tyranids are slow, biological opponents who don’t adapt fast enough to make any real difference and the only reason they aren’t defeated immediately during any invasion since EVERYONE has more muscle than them is because the plot says so.


    Tell that to Gryphonne 4, Shadowbrink, Forgefane, Ghorala, and plenty others worlds the Tyranids have devoured. Leviathan has been dominating the IoM since it arrived with little problem.

  64. GMoney November 19, 2014 at 3:22 pm -      #264

    “Tell that to Gryphonne 4, Shadowbrink, Forgefane, Ghorala, and plenty others worlds the Tyranids have devoured. Leviathan has been dominating the IoM since it arrived with little problem.”

    not really. All the Hive Fleets have been stalemated or broken every time they met a solid bastion of defense. The only reason the Tyranids do anything to the IOM is because they block communications making it impossible to warn people in time.

  65. Jake_Uzumaki November 19, 2014 at 3:25 pm -      #265

    So was rereading a couple of old threads and thought I’d bring up some stuff I hadn’t thought of when originally looking at this match.

    composite plus EU means we have Krayt’s Empire, which had fighters that could solo capital ships in an era where fighter shields were equal to Luke Skywalker era frigates, frigates were equal to Luke Skywalker era cap ships, and the cap ships were ridiculously shielded. Program World Devastators to build more of those things…that would be quite a nasty bunch of fighters.

    Krayt era also brings millions of cybernetic Sith Troopers that are as fanatically loyal to Krayt as Ultrasmurfs are to GEoM

    There’s also the old planet busting railguns known as Planchanga’s in play again from pre Planetary Shield era Star Wars. I know Warhammer doesn’t but do Halo or Trek currently have planetary shields?
    If nothing else potential to one shot team 2’s ships easily.

    I forgot but Ssi-Ruuvi plus force users means soul stealing tech with a 3 kilometer radius.
    Ssi-Ruuvi handheld weapons ignore armor and shields

    To the Tyranids, say hi to the Chiss who during a war with the Killiks began using upgraded CIS weapons called Defoliators on a large scale, ie a weapon that destroys all organic matter in a specific radius.

    Chiss ships are ISD’s but instead of Turbolasers they have Magamasers which have kinetic force in addition to the multigigaton energy blast.

    Chiss hand Maser weapons come in two varieties blue that deep fries electronics on contact with metallic substances (ie Borg armor) and green that deep fries the targets nervous system.

    As to viruses there’s one from the Krayt era called Omega Red. One virus bomb of it can life wipe a planet in a matter of breaths
    img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110528202210/starwars/images/6/60/OmegaRed.jpg
    it was designed so only the Sith could be immune to it, modify that to only Star Wars races/those with Midichlorians being immune…..just shoot one across the portal to Terra, and the entire planet dies if they aren’t wearing gas masks. Possibly even then.

  66. Tyran November 19, 2014 at 3:33 pm -      #266

    not really. All the Hive Fleets have been stalemated or broken every time they met a solid bastion of defense. The only reason the Tyranids do anything to the IOM is because they block communications making it impossible to warn people in time.

    Leviathan is the exception, the only time the IoM has managed to defeat a portion of it was thanks to Kryptman’s virus, which only worked once.

    To the Tyranids, say hi to the Chiss who during a war with the Killiks began using upgraded CIS weapons called Defoliators on a large scale, ie a weapon that destroys all organic matter in a specific radius.

    Why they didn’t destroy the Vong with such weapon?

  67. Tyran November 19, 2014 at 3:44 pm -      #267

    Also, as I said before, Team 2 can turn the area near the wormhole into a warp rift, no amount of forces is going to pass through such warp infested zone.

  68. the watcher November 19, 2014 at 3:45 pm -      #268

    Why would the railgun get through 40k’s sheilds? They work by tossing the projectile into the warp, not blocking it.

    And Terra. Getting Vongformed. Yeah. Good luck getting anything to grow on that toxic hellhole, especially if Nurgle’s Rot is involved. Also, seeing as the Vong don’t have a force presence, wouldn’t the Necrons convert them?

    and about bioweapons, the life eater virus works in minutes as opposed to the blue shadow virus, and even then it kills more people. And magic enchanced plague zombies are hardly new to 40k.

  69. pimpmage November 19, 2014 at 4:05 pm -      #269

    I thought we had discussed this before. Void shield tech absorbs destructive force and energy and transfers out to the warp. Things can make physical contact with the shields but the actual force is transferred elsewhere. And about planetary shields… it is a fact that every hive city or anything worth a damn is always void shielded in 40k. That reminds me of a quote from the book, ‘battle of the fang’.

    Basically a thousand sons fleet in orbit over the space wolves fortress monastery was hammering the void shields of the base for the better part of a year. There was a ship in orbit that unleashed a steady stream of plasma onto the shields for many months straight. The shields were powered by the planet’s core.

  70. Jake_Uzumaki November 19, 2014 at 4:05 pm -      #270

    Omega Red is pretty much the same as the Life Eater virus so Star Wars does have something like it.

    We never saw what the Chiss were doing against the Vong that I can recall, they may have, but they used it against the Killiks because Killiks Zerg rush with billions of insect infantry forces, much like the Tyranids.

    And Star Wars can turn their side of the portal into a labyrinth of black holes.

  71. Jake_Uzumaki November 19, 2014 at 4:18 pm -      #271

    “Things can make physical contact with the shields but the actual force is transferred elsewhere”

    Unless as Aelfinn mentioned in IoM vs GE when something is capable of overloading the Void Shields with too much force. Such as some vehicles that oneshot Titans due to the weapon’s force being too much for the shield. Unless your actually claiming this time that Warhammer ships can take planet busting attacks.

    And I find it interesting these planetary void shields were never brought up in IoM vs GE or Star Wars and Star Trek vs Warhammer

  72. GMoney November 19, 2014 at 4:21 pm -      #272

    “Leviathan is the exception, the only time the IoM has managed to defeat a portion of it was thanks to Kryptman’s virus, which only worked once.”

    that’s actually a huge blow against the tyranids. If the Imperial Adeptus Biologis can do that it is likely that the Imperial Medical center could do so aswell. and their prowess is on par if not surpassing the Adeptus Biologis considering that they created zombies.
    -

  73. Jake_Uzumaki November 19, 2014 at 4:28 pm -      #273

    Also Krayt Empire brings this img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110825173210/starwars/images/0/03/Imsoproud.jpg
    Viral Spores, a virus that adapts to attempts to counter it and is intended to essentially render a planet uninhabitable with just a test tubes worth by poisoning the water supply. The original less virulent form of the virus wiped out the planet Dac in a week.

  74. erickyboo November 19, 2014 at 4:29 pm -      #274

    Why do people keep mentioning MAC’s teratons and so on?
    www.halopedia.org/Mac#Types
    Stop with the erroneous claims. By the way, 343 industries seems to rely on halopedia as evidence by the wording of certain things they write.

    Also, the man with the answers, here is a video resource for promethean knights.
    youtu.be/mIc1qRapJXg
    Scripted scenes.

  75. Tyran November 19, 2014 at 4:29 pm -      #275

    that’s actually a huge blow against the tyranids. If the Imperial Adeptus Biologis can do that it is likely that the Imperial Medical center could do so aswell. and their prowess is on par if not surpassing the Adeptus Biologis considering that they created zombies.

    It only worked once, the Tyranids became immune to it. In fact, the Tyranids out-evolved Nurgle, you know, the God of disease, who also has his own brand of zombies and magic diseases.

  76. Friendlysociopath November 19, 2014 at 4:32 pm -      #276

    Wait a sec, what’s this Bullshit about the Life Eater Virus being unstoppable?

    Hundreds of Space Marines manage to survive that in makeshift bunkers they made with a few minutes notice. And I know some Dreadnought guy seals himself off from it- hell, even the giant mech manages to seal itself off well enough to not have the crew die to the virus.
    It’s entirely possible to seal yourself away from that particular attack.

    I’m leaning towards Star Wars for now, EU has some powerful stuff and Team 2 is limited to current incarnation.

  77. Tyran November 19, 2014 at 4:35 pm -      #277

    The problem with the Life Eater Virus is that it tends to immolate the surface of the planet in a firestorm.

  78. GMoney November 19, 2014 at 5:05 pm -      #278

    “Why would the railgun get through 40k’s sheilds? They work by tossing the projectile into the warp, not blocking it.”

    The Imperium uses torpedoes which basically proves that void shields don’t work like that. They work by shunting the energy from the blast into the warp but not sucking the shot up unless it is an energy weapon.

    “It only worked once, the Tyranids became immune to it. In fact, the Tyranids out-evolved Nurgle, you know, the God of disease, who also has his own brand of zombies and magic diseases.”

    I know they can out evolve one virus but the Imperium has made multiple viruses for different hive fleets.

    While The Imperium does have shielding it is only at the theatre level for most places. The only places with full planetary shields are important planets like Legion Homeworlds and The Sol System’s planets.

    Also one thing in general is that while some 40k faction’s ships might be slightly better in firepower or durability the entire setting is lacking in numbers of ships. A large fleet by 40k standards has between 30-50 vessels of all classes.

    While I know the Flood have the logic plague dosent it work by infecting AI? The only AI in Star Wars are droids and all droids have an inbuilt system wipe even if they get infected. And even then Star Wars has put down a Droid Revolution before (which is why hey have the kill switch).

    Also here is an incomplete list of all the Star Wars governments throughout all time periods and every era in the EU:
    starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Governments
    starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Time

  79. Jake_Uzumaki November 19, 2014 at 5:14 pm -      #279

    I just remembered….composite Killiks….in the New Jedi Order Era there were billions of Killiks in existence…in the WarTrek vs Warhammer match it was calculated that in a year the “current” hives would be able to produce 2,160,000,000,000 Killiks a year based on them being 90% females and producing 1000 eggs a month…this is every Killik that has ever existed…their starting out potentially as numerous as the Tyranids and can multiply that number exponentially every year…..if this war goes on for a while Star Wars might need the other universes in question just to store the damn Killiks.

    Keep in mind it was a rough calc assuming only 10 million females per each of the 18 hives

  80. the watcher November 19, 2014 at 5:14 pm -      #280

    They didn’t survive the virus. They avoided being infected by it. The same thing applies to the SW weapons, because they could seal off from it. And the dreadnought died because his armor was cracked.

    The nids didn’t out evolve Nurgle, though the hive mind did stop the Rot from killing them.

    And the virus spore is not impressive. Nurgle’s rot tends to kill whole planets with just one infected, so does the doubt worm. Then the dead become daemons that can be used to kill other planets.

    Also, the kiliks CAN do that, but they won’t because they can’t be fed that fast because star wars doesn’t have the food supply for that, and the nids have more than that. Hell, just the imperium has half a quadrilion people, and they’re less numerous than the orks.

  81. GMoney November 19, 2014 at 5:22 pm -      #281

    “They didn’t survive the virus. They avoided being infected by it. The same thing applies to the SW weapons, because they could seal off from it. And the dreadnought died because his armor was cracked.”

    Yes but I think his point was is that it’s not an auto planet killer like say, The Death Star is.

    “The nids didn’t out evolve Nurgle, though the hive mind did stop the Rot from killing them.”

    …Which is basically the same thing.

    “And the virus spore is not impressive. Nurgle’s rot tends to kill whole planets with just one infected, so does the doubt worm. Then the dead become daemons that can be used to kill other planets.”

    Source? I’ve seen ravage planets in fluff but never kill.

  82. Jake_Uzumaki November 19, 2014 at 5:29 pm -      #282

    Virus Spores do the same thing by being poured in the water, it doesn’t even have to start with one infected, the vastly inferior version that required several large barrel-fuls rendered a planet completely uninhabitable. The final version does the same thing, with a test tube a human can hold in their hand in a fraction of the time of the original. 25ml at the most of the virus can wipe out a planet and adapts to any attempts to reverse it, cure it, or even just to your DNA not being what it first infected, grass, trees, insects, every species in the Galaxy, no matter what variations, and if it were combined with Omega Red (Sith Alchemized together so that it’s airborne with the attributes of both) you could have a virus that renders an entire planet unninhabitable in a matter of seconds-minutes.

  83. Sauroposeidon November 19, 2014 at 5:29 pm -      #283

    “They actually had several encounters, in one they went to cry for help to the Dark Eldar”

    I don’t believe the Tau have ever worked with the Dark Eldar, and infact don’t know the difference between Dark Eldar and Eldar. Could you cite the source? The only mentioned instance of the dark eldar in the codex that I recall is a hit and run they did on the Tau, resulting in the Tau retaliating against the Eldar, assuming they were their dark brothers.

    “Excuse me but what? The Tau would be dead if the IoM wasn’t to occupied fighting the Tyranids, or if Kraken had arrived a little more to the galactic south or if anyone actually bothered to kill them and not use super small forces against them.”

    The Tau would have fought off the Imperium during the Damocles crusade. They were losing the fight and worried more reinforcements would have come in. They were actually considering life wiping the planet they were fighting for because the Tau were making it so difficult.

    The Tau have been hit with sizable Orc WAAAGHs in the past. They fight the off every time.

    You can complain all you want but that’s not plot shielding. Plot shielding would be them canonically having a pathetic navy and still defeating the Imperium Navy.

    Instead, they have a powerful but small navy, and struggle for every victory they have, even though their ships are roughly as powerful as an imperium vessel a class up from theirs.

    The Tyranids, on the other hand, are insanely slow, and squish easy.. and somehow are a threat. There’s no feasible reason for why they ever give the Imperium a challenge. Nothing they have, stats wise, stacks up. The only thing they offer is numbers, but in a long range space battle that shouldn’t matter very much at all.

    I’m not saying they don’t have impressive victories. I’m saying by all rights they never should have gotten those victories.

    They’re just useless.

  84. Jake_Uzumaki November 19, 2014 at 6:20 pm -      #284

    Quick question, doesn’t the Nid hive mind provide protection from Chaos?

  85. Tyran November 19, 2014 at 6:22 pm -      #285

    I know they can out evolve one virus but the Imperium has made multiple viruses for different hive fleets.

    As far as I can remember, only the one of Tarsis Ultra worked.


    The Tyranids, on the other hand, are insanely slow, and squish easy.. and somehow are a threat. There’s no feasible reason for why they ever give the Imperium a challenge. Nothing they have, stats wise, stacks up. The only thing they offer is numbers, but in a long range space battle that shouldn’t matter very much at all.


    That’s the thing, the have numbers, even in space battles they outnumber the IoM by a wide margin.

  86. Neon Lord November 19, 2014 at 6:30 pm -      #286

    “I don’t believe the Tau have ever worked with the Dark Eldar, and infact don’t know the difference between Dark Eldar and Eldar. Could you cite the source? The only mentioned instance of the dark eldar in the codex that I recall is a hit and run they did on the Tau, resulting in the Tau retaliating against the Eldar, assuming they were their dark brothers.”-

    War of Dark Relevations in the Dark Eldar codex. Tau got beat up real bad.

    “Unless as Aelfinn mentioned in IoM vs GE when something is capable of overloading the Void Shields with too much force. Such as some vehicles that oneshot Titans due to the weapon’s force being too much for the shield. Unless your actually claiming this time that Warhammer ships can take planet busting attacks.”

    Warhammer don’t have planetary scale void shields, but they have ones that cover cities in multiple layers. These can take quite a hammering, and are basically immune to orbital bombardments as mentioned by pimpmage.

    “The Imperium uses torpedoes which basically proves that void shields don’t work like that. They work by shunting the energy from the blast into the warp but not sucking the shot up unless it is an energy weapon.”

    Void shields block anything that hits them, right up until they fail. They method they do so is inconsistent across varying sources.

  87. Jake_Uzumaki November 19, 2014 at 6:39 pm -      #287

    @Neon Lord
    but I’m not talking Orbital Bombardment, I’m talking a planet killing Asteroid fired at relavistic speeds to shatter/crack open planets (I need to double check the book)

  88. Jake_Uzumaki November 19, 2014 at 6:49 pm -      #288

    It is crack, “Hutt planechanga – massive tubular railguns built to accelerate space rocks to planet-cracking velocities”
    Star Wars The Essential Guide to Warfare pg 17.

    And since it doesn’t have to be fired at cities….

  89. Sauroposeidon November 19, 2014 at 6:58 pm -      #289

    “War of Dark Relevations in the Dark Eldar codex. Tau got beat up real bad”

    Yeah the Tau don’t garrison their non-Sept worlds very well. The Dark Eldar swept through a lightly guarded world and made swiss cheese out of everything. The rallied response force attacked an Eldar world, assuming they were the culprits. They don’t actually appear to know who the Dark Eldar are … but I don’t recall them ever working with the Dark Eldar against the Tyranids.

  90. Jake_Uzumaki November 19, 2014 at 7:04 pm -      #290

    Seriously anyone want to answer my question on Hive Mind vs Chaos influence?

  91. Tyran November 19, 2014 at 7:10 pm -      #291

    The Hive Minds interferes with Chaos, just like it interferes with anything psychic. Also the fact that Chaos can’t feed from Nids helps.

    There is a very good section of the 6th ed Tyranid Codex that talks about it:

    wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Fall_of_Shadowbrink

  92. the watcher November 19, 2014 at 7:14 pm -      #292

    It provides protection ish. Exactly how isn’t known, but it seems to be along the lines of the fact that tyranids are highly psychic, although even then it only works on small scale chaos invasions. The nids just get corrupted if they go in a warp storm. The one major battle between chaos and tyranids involved four greater daemons slaughtering the nids, then the nids from other continents gangpiled them and because the bugs they killed didn’t add favor to the gods, they got overwhelmed and banished with the exception of the Tzeentch daemon, who, as far as I know, got back through the portal.

    Edit: Ninja’d

    @GM
    40k has it’s own death star equivalents. The life eater is not one of them. It also isn’t used because it feeds Nurgle with each use, so using the other viruses might not be a good idea in the long run.

  93. Jake_Uzumaki November 19, 2014 at 7:14 pm -      #293

    Well I ask because the Killiks have a massive hive mind, and by the end of the two month grace period the entire galaxy could have joined with it, and due to the presence of so many Force Users the entirety of the Killik race would gain it like they did when only a handful of Jedi joined. It’s quite likely that this…Star Wars Hive Mind could interfere with the Chaos corruption in a similar way to the Tyranid Hive mind.
    In addition to exponentially increasing the Force user numbers

  94. Tyran November 19, 2014 at 7:25 pm -      #294

    Does the Killik hive mind interferes with the Force?

  95. the watcher November 19, 2014 at 7:34 pm -      #295

    The Killiks are about 1/12 the numbers of the nids, in addition to the tyranids having much more powerful psykers than most force users short of Palpatine. A handful of them blew apart a great unclean one, and those things usually defeat whole worlds. Even then, the daemons where not exactly very powerful at the time of their fight with the tyranids, and another part of the reason their attack failed was the tyranids being more adaptable to the plagues the unclean one used. The Killiks, being less adaptable, are much more likely to simply get sick and die, probably being linked through the hive mind. Another thing is that the large numbers of new Killiks are not in addition to all the old ones who die out, so the total growth isn’t that high. Some of the reason’s the daemons weren’t powerful was that it was A) far from the warp, B) not enough people sacrificed to sustain that many of them, and C) they got blindsided by the nids immunity to their powers. Even then, the four of them had quite the impressive kill ratio and they seem to be planning to fight the nids again.

  96. GMoney November 19, 2014 at 8:23 pm -      #296

    “The Killiks are about 1/12 the numbers of the nids, in addition to the tyranids having much more powerful psykers than most force users short of Palpatine.”

    Really? I don’t recall Zoanthropes doing anything beyond the run of the mill Jedi/Sith’s capacity.

    “A handful of them blew apart a great unclean one, and those things usually defeat whole worlds.”

    Source on the Great Unclean Ones destroying planets?

    “Even then, the daemons where not exactly very powerful at the time of their fight with the tyranids, and another part of the reason their attack failed was the tyranids being more adaptable to the plagues the unclean one used. The Killiks, being less adaptable, are much more likely to simply get sick and die, probably being linked through the hive mind.”

    Actually, The Kiliks use the force and because force=warp they should have a similar effect that the Hive Mind does for resisting the warp.

    “Another thing is that the large numbers of new Killiks are not in addition to all the old ones who die out, so the total growth isn’t that high.”

    It’s composite. That means every being ever in Star Wars

  97. pimpmage November 19, 2014 at 8:36 pm -      #297

    Man, i wish the 40k side included the last like 2k years of stuff. I have a secret weapon that hasn’t really been discussed in a BankGambling match before. 40k side ‘had’ a dr who style phone booth that allowed people to go to where in time and whenever in the galaxy they wanted to go. The object in question was destroyed, along with the organization that kept it running. :*(

  98. GMoney November 19, 2014 at 8:41 pm -      #298

    “Man, i wish the 40k side included the last like 2k years of stuff. I have a secret weapon that hasn’t really been discussed in a BankGambling match before. 40k side ‘had’ a dr who style phone booth that allowed people to go to where in time and whenever in the galaxy they wanted to go. The object in question was destroyed, along with the organization that kept it running. :*(”

    The one from Eisenhorn?

  99. pimpmage November 19, 2014 at 8:49 pm -      #299

    “The one from Eisenhorn?”

    The ravenor trilogy. Such an object being usable would allow for nigh infinite prep.

  100. Jake_Uzumaki November 19, 2014 at 9:18 pm -      #300

    What GMoney said, composite means every Killik that has existed as far back as the Rakatan empire when they were slaves, and we’ve seen galaxy wide telepathy from people like Luke and Darth Krayt (Luke telling every Jedi in the Galaxy to get to the temple for three days and Krayt sending a telepathic message telling every Sith “I’m back bitches”) and with composite that also puts Palpatine’s power in the hive, as well as Darth Plagueis who was able to reach out and saturate the entire Galaxy with the Darkside in order to alter the cosmic scales.
    Ben Skywalker was able to call on the Force power of his friends and loved ones from across the Galaxy when he was facing Abeloth and used the power to beat one of her Avatars.
    Then there’s Son and Daughter who were able to join with the Killik hive meaning they and Abeloth and Father would be able to, so there are plenty of people on the Wars side that can perform Galaxy scale feats of a sort with the Force, off the top of my head at least.

    I can also think of plenty of Sith who would be more than happy to drink from the Font of Power and bath in the Pool of Knowledge to become like Abeloth immensely boosting the potential Force Potential of the hives. In fact most Sith would probably be willing to do it once the composite era’s shared their knowledge.

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