Master Chief vs Darth Vader

Master Chief vs Darth Vader

Well, after 40 comments, and 87 Diggs, it looks like MC beats Boba Fett – So can the Master Chief beat Darth Vader? Let’s look at what each one brings to the table:

Master Chief:

  • Various weapon skills
  • Cool Armor
  • Decent Vehicles
  • Lone Wolf Mentality
  • Has shields to re-generate

Darth Vader:

  • The Force
  • Dark Lord of the Sith
  • Lightsaber

I am a HUGE fan of MC, but I think he would get served on this one. Whereas Boba Fett was a great fighter, Darth is/was the CHOSEN one. In any legacy, that’s hard to beat. I think the match would last about 5 seconds as Darth does a throat choke, MC could stick him with a plasma…maybe…

How would this fight go?

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1,004 Comments on "Master Chief vs Darth Vader"

  1. Commander Cross September 22, 2014 at 6:49 pm -      #901

    I thought Chief Man also has Gravity Boots if I recall correctly.

    So Vader could potentially be fine and dandy if he plays it smart, but does Chief Man have anything aside from Jump Packs and Thrusters to fall back on for Zero-Gravity fights in this case?

  2. the_man_with The_Answers September 22, 2014 at 7:02 pm -      #902

    “What? We’ve seen that he is capable of doing it as seen in Episode 3 and considering that MC is not a force user or in anyway affiliated with the force what is stopping Vader from doing it? Give me one good reason why he cannot replicate the feat in battle.”

    When does he crush someone’s gun? When does he actively force choke someone during a battle where he is being pelted by enemy fire?

    “Your theory relies on Vader using a power that has never been shown by any other force user in any of the movies or cartoons. My theory relies on Vader’s armor having substantial enough protection to protect him from a blaster bolt, which is shown to have kinetic force in the movies and cartoon. Ocaam’s Razor is not on your side right now.”

    You still haven’t answered my question. If even the lightly protected gloves are resistant to blasters, why would he need to move his hand to each blaster bolt if not to block them with the force? If the gloves where resistant, he shouldn’t need to move at all. But there was a need to block the bolts.

    “The only people in the room were Vader and Fett, who was standing several meters away from Vader. The storm troopers that get knocked down by bolts were several inches away from where the bolt struck.”

    Vader only partially out-masses Storm Troopers. Why wasn’t he as affected? You can’t selectively choose when to apply physics and when not to.

    “rove it. Never once do the characters talk about what Blasters shoot.”

    I was working off of the wiki. Doesn’t change the fact that they are low mass low velocity no matter what way you spin it.

    “Those pages are non-canon. The movies nor the cartoon ever explain the science behind Blasters ever the only thing that does is EU, which is out of the match. For all we know Blasters could be shooting super-heated rocks.”

    Wow, look whose playing the canon game now. I was reffered to those pages by your compatriot over there. We know whatever it is has to fit in a clip small enough to fit in the weapons as shown. We also know that they have very high capacities, meaning they have to be very small (if they are even projectiles). Very small and low velocity is still low mass low velocity. The fact that slug throwers are an entirely different type of weapon, I highly doubt blasters use projectile weapons.

    “Blaster bolts produce kinetic energy. We see this several times in the films and the cartoon where men are knocked down by the force of a blast ”

    Force=/=Kinetic Energy, for starters.
    Second, they do indeed have energy, just not a lot of kinetic energy (Well, not by a typical sense of mass and velocity, as technically temperature is defined as the average kinetic energy of the particles within said object). Any forces imparted by the blaster are likely the result of the minor explosive release of all the pent up thermal energy. A forceful impact from a projectile like a bullet is from the sudden jarring stop as it goes from hundreds of meters per second to significantly less than that, or straight zero, on impact. In the case of blasters, there is a contact explosion, severely limiting penetration. IN the case of bullets, all force is located on the tip as it hits, creating intense pressure which allows it to penetrate. If it doesn’t penetrate, your body still absorbs the force in the form of blunt trauma as it gets transmitted through your armor into you.

    “that could not be accomplished with thermal energy alone”

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6cMmk8LZgQ

    You were saying? Explosive release of thermal energy. You guys should stop acting like you know how high energy physics and chemistry works (Though you are doing a better job than Joltra).

    “What have MC’s bullets been shown to do? Have they ever created fist sized holes in a wall?”

    If you watched my video, they don’t punch big holes with a thermal explosion, they create (still decent sized) penetration holes and continue onward to be lethal to things behind. At 250yds (ie significant muzzle energy loss). An entire magazine will shred a wall as demonstrated.

    Lucky for Chief, penetration is what you want against anything with armor. That’s like military ballistics 101. The same reason why solely contact explosive weapons do horribly against tanks, while explosives that focus on penetration are the tank killers (Hence why tanks use APFSDS rounds).

    “Additionally, what’s stopping Vader from blocking the bullets with his saber? While I know he isn’t a bullet timer the force works by telling him where the bullet will be so he can move his hand their before the bullet reaches him.”

    The fact that, if Chief fires from even 30m away (Which is still way out of the range you guys think Chief will be engaging in), the first shot will hit him in 0.03 seconds. At 15rps, the following shots will hit in 0.06 seconds. Which is a fraction of even peak human reaction time. I doubt Vader can move that reflexively.

    “he onto needs to block a few and his suit, which has shown to be able to tank Blasters, and a light blow from a lightsaber.”

    Bullets and Blasters impart very different forms of energy and forces. There has been no evidence shown of Vader being resistant to armor piercing munitions as of yet.
    -

  3. Alpha or Omega September 22, 2014 at 8:57 pm -      #903

    What tmwta is saying that with pre-cog, Vader would still need to move in order to block the bullets fast enough. Fast enough is the important part.
    /
    Also, even if Vader became bullet immune, Master Chief can, progressively, go towards him while shooting him making Vader lose concentration with each shot.
    When Chief comes up close, he can tear Vader apart or pummel him to death. The light saber wouldn’t be much of a problem due to Master Chief’s dealing in close combat and superior speed and strength.

  4. GMoney September 22, 2014 at 11:27 pm -      #904

    “When does he crush someone’s gun? When does he actively force choke someone during a battle where he is being pelted by enemy fire?”

    At the beginning of the battle. Unless Master Chief can aim his gun and pull a trigger faster than Vader’s Neurons can fire. This isn’t including Vader’s precognition either which would speed up the time by a significant margin.

    “You still haven’t answered my question. If even the lightly protected gloves are resistant to blasters, why would he need to move his hand to each blaster bolt if not to block them with the force? If the gloves where resistant, he shouldn’t need to move at all. But there was a need to block the bolts.”

    I can’t answer that question. The only explanation would be that Vader instinctively flinched and raised his hand. Or, your force explanation.

    “Vader only partially out-masses Storm Troopers. Why wasn’t he as affected? You can’t selectively choose when to apply physics and when not to.”

    We are never given an official explanation inside the movies or cartoon. All I can tell you is that blaster Bolts are seen knocking people down and Vader was immune. Whether that’s because of inertial compensators in his armor or Vader is simply that strong.

    “Wow, look whose playing the canon game now. I was reffered to those pages by your compatriot over there. We know whatever it is has to fit in a clip small enough to fit in the weapons as shown. We also know that they have very high capacities, meaning they have to be very small (if they are even projectiles). Very small and low velocity is still low mass low velocity. The fact that slug throwers are an entirely different type of weapon, I highly doubt blasters use projectile weapons.”

    Not trying to nitpick I’ve just noticed that people have used EU to nerf Star Wars while simultaneously denying it for SW advantage. It’s an annoying double standard that is like to get rid off. Not saying you do this I’ve just seen on the site recently and in this thread.

    “Force=/=Kinetic Energy, for starters.
    Second, they do indeed have energy, just not a lot of kinetic energy (Well, not by a typical sense of mass and velocity, as technically temperature is defined as the average kinetic energy of the particles within said object). Any forces imparted by the blaster are likely the result of the minor explosive release of all the pent up thermal energy. A forceful impact from a projectile like a bullet is from the sudden jarring stop as it goes from hundreds of meters per second to significantly less than that, or straight zero, on impact. In the case of blasters, there is a contact explosion, severely limiting penetration. IN the case of bullets, all force is located on the tip as it hits, creating intense pressure which allows it to penetrate. If it doesn’t penetrate, your body still absorbs the force in the form of blunt trauma as it gets transmitted through your armor into you.”

    That is true. But you cannot deny that in the movies and cartoons we see people and droids getting hit and reacting as if they were bullets. It doesn’t make sense according to physics but we see that happen anyway. Chalk it up to another case of Sci-Fi ignoring universal laws.

    “You were saying? Explosive release of thermal energy. You guys should stop acting like you know how high energy physics and chemistry works (Though you are doing a better job than Joltra).”

    I’ll take that as as a complement.

    “The fact that, if Chief fires from even 30m away (Which is still way out of the range you guys think Chief will be engaging in), the first shot will hit him in 0.03 seconds. At 15rps, the following shots will hit in 0.06 seconds. Which is a fraction of even peak human reaction time. I doubt Vader can move that reflexively.”

    Again, precognition. While Vader might be able to block a full volley he knows where the bullets are before they get there and can adjust his saber accordingly. And I think he can rotate his wrist in the time it takes for the bullet to get to him+bonus Precog time. This would just be the first couple shots though, after awhile his Precog would be overwhelmed.

    “Bullets and Blasters impart very different forms of energy and forces. There has been no evidence shown of Vader being resistant to armor piercing munitions as of yet.”

    Well, we have seen blasters literally blow droids apart as if they were hit by a bullet and we have seen it put holes in Storm Trooper Armor.

  5. GMoney September 22, 2014 at 11:33 pm -      #905

    “Also, even if Vader became bullet immune, Master Chief can, progressively, go towards him while shooting him making Vader lose concentration with each shot.
    When Chief comes up close, he can tear Vader apart or pummel him to death. The light saber wouldn’t be much of a problem due to Master Chief’s dealing in close combat and superior speed and strength.”

    How strong is MC? I know he’s stronger than a basic human but by how much? I ask because We’ve seen Vader hold a man by the neck and choke him one-handed with no visible exertion and I was wondering how that stacks up to Chief. Can Chief dodge fast enough to stop a swinging blade that will take a limb off if it hits? I’ve never seen him move that fast in game.

  6. Commander Cross September 22, 2014 at 11:34 pm -      #906

    So is this fight a DragonBall Z-style fight as of yet, with Bullets and other Projectiles being akin to Ki/Chi Blasts and whatnot?
    Also, when do Chief Man and Vader become Super Saiyans?

    Will this fight be anything at all like the fights from Red vs Blue we wind up seeing, from Season 08 onward when Monty Oum was displaying them?

  7. Friendlysociopath September 22, 2014 at 11:51 pm -      #907

    “How strong is MC? I know he’s stronger than a basic human but by how much? I ask because We’ve seen Vader hold a man by the neck and choke him one-handed with no visible exertion and I was wondering how that stacks up to Chief. Can Chief dodge fast enough to stop a swinging blade that will take a limb off if it hits? I’ve never seen him move that fast in game.”

    It’s been posted that he can lift a ton, so that puts him a bit above Vader in strength. MC moves pretty fast in cutscenes (see the video on the last page, ah screw it, here’s the link
    www.youtube.com/watch?v=2O3Dlujvyu0 )
    and Vader moves really, really slow in the movies. So MC appears to be faster based on current information.

    “Will this fight be anything at all like the fights from Red vs Blue we wind up seeing, from Season 08 onward when Monty Oum was displaying them?”

    Possible, but I doubt it. Movie Vader barely moves, it would be very akin to Weiss’s RWBY trailer, except with guns and the fighters would be the same size.

  8. GMoney September 23, 2014 at 12:07 am -      #908

    “It’s been posted that he can lift a ton, so that puts him a bit above Vader in strength. MC moves pretty fast in cutscenes (see the video on the last page, ah screw it, here’s the link
    www.youtube.com/watch?v=2O3Dlujvyu0 )
    and Vader moves really, really slow in the movies. So MC appears to be faster based on current information.”

    That’s pretty impressive. But at the same time the Didact was able to hit John in Halo 4 and MC did not avoid it. Also, penetrating Vader’s armor may take several repeated blows and if even chief gets hit once he’s taking a critical injury. And Vader could also take a guard stance.

  9. OberHerr September 23, 2014 at 12:20 am -      #909

    MC, in full armor, can pretty easily lift three tons.

  10. the_man_with The_Answers September 23, 2014 at 12:42 am -      #910

    “At the beginning of the battle. ”

    I mean when does he ever show the tendency to do this?

    Also, how close do you think they are starting together? Shall I remind you that much faster and stealthier Chief can still fight effectively a couple hundred meters out.

    “I can’t answer that question. The only explanation would be that Vader instinctively flinched and raised his hand. Or, your force explanation.”

    That’s a REALLY odd twitch reaction don’t you think? Trained and experienced individuals don’t raise their hand at incoming fire. Unless they can block it with the force…

    “We are never given an official explanation inside the movies or cartoon. All I can tell you is that blaster Bolts are seen knocking people down and Vader was immune. Whether that’s because of inertial compensators in his armor or Vader is simply that strong.”

    Maybe you don’t understand, but if a small contact explosion has, apparently, enough force to knock out soldiers from 1 or 2 meters away, while knocking them over or sending them rolling, then have 3 or 4 detonations happen on you (When you only weigh marginally more), is going to knock you off your feet, if not kill with concussive force.which means one of 3 things:
    1. Han was using a higher setting at Mos Eiesly, and didn’t have it set that high when encountering Vader (AS he didn’t expect combat)
    2. Blasters don’t have a as much explosive force as you think they have
    or
    3. (Which kind of can be used on top of the other two) Vader blocked them with the force as evident by his hand movement.

    All three of those options don’t include Vader somehow being this invulnerable walking tank like I’m sure you picture in your mind.

    “Not trying to nitpick I’ve just noticed that people have used EU to nerf Star Wars while simultaneously denying it for SW advantage. It’s an annoying double standard that is like to get rid off. Not saying you do this I’ve just seen on the site recently and in this thread.”

    I’ve only been trying to use the movies (Which is like the only canon Vader now exists in). Other information was thrown at me by Joltra, which I’d guess is mostly all non-canon. Also, the wiki articles have less sources than a college football jock’s English paper. So it’s hard to tell what came from where.

    “That is true. But you cannot deny that in the movies and cartoons we see people and droids getting hit and reacting as if they were bullets. It doesn’t make sense according to physics but we see that happen anyway. Chalk it up to another case of Sci-Fi ignoring universal laws”

    I’m not denying that they have force to them. For some reason I don’t think you get that. They actually have quite a bit of force. But it is via a contact thermal explosion of sorts. Good for some limited AoE capabilities, and will impart a considerable “felt” force on the target, but limits penetration. But bullets have all of their force pin-pointed into the tip of the penetrator, giving a significant boost to the point-pressure allowing superior penetration.

    “I’ll take that as as a complement.”

    It’s easy to think that thermal energy can only melt stuff, and not react explosively. I don’t really blame you for that misconception.

    “Well, we have seen blasters literally blow droids apart as if they were hit by a bullet and we have seen it put holes in Storm Trooper Armor.”

    Via the force of the thermal energy being released. Not a high pressure impact concentrated on one small spot. We don’t even really have a whole lot of evidence of Vader surviving blaster bolts either. Especially not to the head (Where even the concussive force of multiple bullets or blasters is likely to knock him out if not penetrate and kill him).

    “How strong is MC? I know he’s stronger than a basic human but by how much?”

    Lifting strength of around 3 or maybe 4 metric tons or so. He can casually lift 200kg objects with one arm (I can give you the quote as well, it is very specific if you want it). He can rip into Titanium with his hands (in armor). Without armor enhancements, and as a teenager, he could tear a 30mm chaingun from its armature, then use it as a weapon. At the same age without armor, he could kick a marine in a bulky exoskeleton 8 meters away (Likely weighed over 300kg). He’s pretty strong.

    ” I ask because We’ve seen Vader hold a man by the neck and choke him one-handed with no visible exertion and I was wondering how that stacks up to Chief.”

    In Halo 4, Chief punches an Elite in the face, then effortlessly grabs it by the head and throws it off a catwalk (breaking its neck in the process). That’s a 200kg+ alien right there, that he just tossed aside like a rag doll (with shitty leverage I might add). One of his assassination moves is to rip the bladed hard light arm of a 1,000lb Promethean knight and force feed it back into its chest. I don’t think Vader has anything on that.

    “Can Chief dodge fast enough to stop a swinging blade that will take a limb off if it hits? I’ve never seen him move that fast in game.”

    Briefly in the video I posted of Chief blasting his way down the hallway, he dodges some pretty fast energy sword swings. IN another video taking place afterwards, Chief does the same thing. In Halo:First Strike, despite days of constant combat with no sleep or food, and a malfunctioning shield system on his suit (it wouldn’t recharge, so he was fighting shield less), Chief fought an Elite Spec Ops soldier with an energy sword, and managed to come out as the winner (Chief had no weapons at the time, it was straight H2H). Additionally, there are some pretty hax reflex/agility on the part of teenage Chief in no armor against special forces in a “sparring match” (It ended with him accidentally killing them), and against marines in exoskeletons with auto-targeting 30mm chainguns.

    I can post most if not all of the quotes and videos for those feats upon request.

    -

  11. the_man_with The_Answers September 23, 2014 at 12:51 am -      #911

    “But at the same time the Didact was able to hit John in Halo 4 and MC did not avoid it.”

    Chief just got done fighting for the past couple days straight (More if you consider cryosleep provides no real rest, so the time in Halo 3 should count too), against 1,000lbs teleporting kill-bots, with no real rest. He had also dropped from orbit (Hitting metal on the way down, and having more land on him), crashed a Broadsword at what I can only imagine were super sonic speeds, got hit by the Composer, and was just prior to that locked in a painful constraint field.

    Sorry he wasn’t preforming his absolute best (After completing his goal of planting a pulse grenade in his chest anyways). Didact’s arm is also much less of a concern to avoid than say an energy sword or light-saber. Chief thought he was going to die anyways (Exploding a 30MT nuke in his hands was kinda his goal after “kill Didact at all costs”).

  12. Warlock Lowk September 23, 2014 at 1:49 am -      #912

    “When does he crush someone’s gun? When does he actively force choke someone during a battle where he is being pelted by enemy fire?”

    Maybe not pelted but he has shown lifting droid and pulling them on to his lightsaber during firefights.
    He’s also shown to destroy or take weapon. But the destroy part tends to be with the light saber. So the act in itself is in character for him. It more of how he goes about it thats the problem.

  13. Blazing Waffles September 23, 2014 at 4:02 am -      #913

    “cryosleep provides no real rest”

    Apparently there’s a burst of REM sleep, just before one comes out of cryo, which is the part of sleep that actually gets you rest. It might not be much, but at least he got some sleep after Halo 3.

  14. the_man_with The_Answers September 23, 2014 at 9:40 am -      #914

    From Halo:The Flood, we see he gets about one 5 minute dream. Maybe. He was thawed A lot faster in Halo 4. Like, Cortana presses activates it and he’s up in seconds.

    Regardless, 5 minutes of REM gives you about no rest at all, and waking up during a REM cycle generally just leaves one drowsy.

  15. Ragnorke September 23, 2014 at 12:39 pm -      #915

    “I can’t answer that question. The only explanation would be that Vader instinctively flinched and raised his hand. Or, your force explanation.”

    Raising your hand randomly due to a flinch is something that would be considered “unnatural”, and would thus be a positive claim… which you would need to provide proof for.
    Otherwise, the Force explanation is the one that should be taken into consideration as the correct one.

    “Again, precognition. While Vader might be able to block a full volley he knows where the bullets are before they get there and can adjust his saber accordingly.”

    Bullshit. Vader can’t move fast enough to “adjust his saber accordingly”

    “Well, we have seen blasters literally blow droids apart as if they were hit by a bullet and we have seen it put holes in Storm Trooper Armor.”

    Droids could be blown apart due to the overwhelming energy, and the holes could be made by large amounts of heat/thermal energy.
    None of that suggests it creates any physical pressure the way a bullet does.

    “How strong is MC? I know he’s stronger than a basic human but by how much?”

    Without his armor, he can bench about a ton. With his armor, he can casually lift 3-4 tons.

    Just in case you didn’t know: 3 tons = 2721.55 kg
    The average human male benches: 65 kg.
    Which puts Master Chief at 42 times stronger than an average human.
    Worlds strongest man has benched (and keep in mind this man gave up pretty much ALL his speed and aesthetic ability to be able to lift this amount): 362 kg

    Chief will quite literally be able to rip Vaders head off… with ease…

  16. Ragnorke September 23, 2014 at 12:42 pm -      #916

    It seems like the Chief currently has 4-5 supporters, who have actively countered everything team Vader has thrown at us… And the Vader supporters seem to be running out of viable arguments.

    A group of people simultaneously messaging Admin (and getting him to read the last couple of pages) is the only way he would even consider changing the BankGambling Award… but lucky for us he’s a huge fan of MC, and would probably be happy to hear this.

    So, all for Master Chief getting the BankGambling award… say aye!

  17. the_man_with The_Answers September 23, 2014 at 12:44 pm -      #917

    FP awards are final. They can only be changed in spirit.

  18. Warlock Lowk September 23, 2014 at 1:45 pm -      #918

    Inb4 new canon eventually makes vader near starkiller levels.
    Seriously though, how do you guy think he’ll be treated in the rewritten canon?

  19. GMoney September 23, 2014 at 1:56 pm -      #919

    I agree with Lowk. As of now It looks like MC would beat movie Vader, but remember that the Legends category is only temporary until they make a new canon. And their is thene cartoon that Disney is making which could give him some more power feats.

  20. erickyboo September 23, 2014 at 2:10 pm -      #920

    This is entertaining.

    Clarification, the didact didn’t slap John. He used a constraint field to ‘slap’ him away. It wasn’t something to easily dodge. That thing can push out three Spartans too.

    www.halopedia.org/2557#July
    Timeline of events

    Maybe he’ll be both buffed and nerfed LowK.

    media.popcultcha.com.au/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/m/a/master_chief_halo_5_cloak_001.png
    www.halopedia.org/images/d/db/BrutalDidact2.png

    I do think he’ll have more forerunner weapons usage.

    Can I see the calculations for Spartan strength?

  21. Ragnorke September 23, 2014 at 2:52 pm -      #921

    “FP awards are final. They can only be changed in spirit.”

    I was hoping Admin would make an exception here… since… well… i don’t think a come back like this has ever happened before.
    And Admin loves the Chief from what i know.

  22. Ragnorke September 23, 2014 at 3:04 pm -      #922

    Ok, so i FINALLY got the perfect example (and words) to explain what i had been trying to say for a while now.
    So for any new readers:

    Lets have you ask a friend to grab you and lift you up. He should be able to do it, unless he’s a pussy or you’re fat.
    But now lets have you flex your leg muscles and concentrate on your body weight. Your friend should struggle a lot more than before, and will possibly fail completely.

    Your muscles can be tensed in a way so that your body can create outward forces that negate incoming forces which would otherwise displace you.

    So lets replace your friend with Vaders “Force”, which would try to do the lifting. And lets replace you, with someone about 50 times as physically strong as you & weighs about 10-20 times as much as you.

    Chief can simply use his innate strength (the insane weight of his armor helps too), and boom, the force created by Vaders “Force” just isn’t enough to do shit.

    The very same concept applies to the Force Choke, since the muscles in Chiefs neck would react the exact same way.

    Master Chiefs insane super strength is just too much for Vaders underwhelming & overwanked Force powers.
    /Thread.

  23. GMoney September 23, 2014 at 3:26 pm -      #923

    “Ok, so i FINALLY got the perfect example (and words) to explain what i had been trying to say for a while now.
    So for any new readers:

    Lets have you ask a friend to grab you and lift you up. He should be able to do it, unless he’s a pussy or you’re fat.
    But now lets have you flex your leg muscles and concentrate on your body weight. Your friend should struggle a lot more than before, and will possibly fail completely.

    Your muscles can be tensed in a way so that your body can create outward forces that negate incoming forces which would otherwise displace you.

    So lets replace your friend with Vaders “Force”, which would try to do the lifting. And lets replace you, with someone about 50 times as physically strong as you & weighs about 10-20 times as much as you.

    Chief can simply use his innate strength (the insane weight of his armor helps too), and boom, the force created by Vaders “Force” just isn’t enough to do shit.

    The very same concept applies to the Force Choke, since the muscles in Chiefs neck would react the exact same way.

    Master Chiefs insane super strength is just too much for Vaders underwhelming & overwanked Force powers.”

    That dosent work with the force. Not only are directly told in Episode 5 that size means nothing to the force but we see people lift and throw objects that they would be impossible to lift using your logic.

  24. Friendlysociopath September 23, 2014 at 3:38 pm -      #924

    “That dosent work with the force. Not only are directly told in Episode 5 that size means nothing to the force but we see people lift and throw objects that they would be impossible to lift using your logic.”

    You’re told size doesn’t matter to the Force, not the person. They can only manipulate so much force, as shown when Luke fails to move the X-Wing in that exact same scene. They have a limit of what they can do, the Force itself is capable of anything- but your limits are what limit it. Vader has limits, without the EU his limits suck is all.

  25. Tancalebner September 23, 2014 at 3:46 pm -      #925

    “Luke fails to move the X-Wing in that exact same scene.”

    He couldn’t lift the x wing because he was essentially equal to a padawan in regards to knowledge of the force at that time. Vader is an experienced force user… Before he turned to the dark side, he was a Jedi knight… For the next few decades he only grew stronger…

    “You’re told size doesn’t matter to the Force, not the person.”

    m.youtube.com/watch?v=HMUKGTkiWik
    Nope…

  26. GMoney September 23, 2014 at 4:15 pm -      #926

    “You’re told size doesn’t matter to the Force, not the person. They can only manipulate so much force, as shown when Luke fails to move the X-Wing in that exact same scene. They have a limit of what they can do, the Force itself is capable of anything- but your limits are what limit it. Vader has limits, without the EU his limits suck is all.”

    Except we are never shown Vader’s limits. Dooku is shown lifting a large metal object even bigger than Chief. And Palpatine said that Vader was more powerful than Dooku. Not saying that Vader could ragdoll Chief, but he isn’t going to shove off Vader’s powers easily, if he can resist them at all.

  27. Ragnorke September 23, 2014 at 4:28 pm -      #927

    “Except we are never shown Vader’s limits.”

    We ALWAYS assume a characters limit is the greatest thing he has shown to do, unless he otherwise specifically states his limit.

    “That dosent work with the force. Not only are directly told in Episode 5 that size means nothing to the force”

    Size =/= Opposing forces.
    It’s like you didn’t even fucking read my explanation.

    ” but we see people lift and throw objects that they would be impossible to lift using your logic.”

    Objects don’t create opposing forces.
    Jesus christ, now i’m sure you didn’t read my explanation.
    …And what you said here doesn’t even make sense, are you saying the Force doesn’t have a limit to how much it can lift? Caus if that’s what you’re saying, just gtfo.

  28. the_man_with The_Answers September 23, 2014 at 5:50 pm -      #928

    “Seriously though, how do you guy think he’ll be treated in the rewritten canon?”

    Probably won’t be. The new show looks like it only might have Vader once or twice, appearing very briefly. The new movies are post-death IIRC, so I doubt he’ll get more than two words said about him. Disney scrapped the previous EU because it was so convoluted, and I doubt they are going back to fill in the stories they wiped out.

    ” i don’t think a come back like this has ever happened before.”

    Apparently Snake beat Chief in spirit (Chief has the award) due to people now claiming he gets hammer space and his entire arsenal (Which is BS IMO).

    “Except we are never shown Vader’s limits. Dooku is shown lifting a large metal object even bigger than Chief. And Palpatine said that Vader was more powerful than Dooku. Not saying that Vader could ragdoll Chief, but he isn’t going to shove off Vader’s powers easily, if he can resist them at all.”

    It takes quite a bit of concentration to move really heavy things. Which Chief counts as at 500kg. Concentration that is hard or impossible to maintain when what you are lifting is shooting you. There’s a reason non-force sensitive bounty hunters, who weigh less, are not as physically capable, and are armored less than Chief can still take down Jedi knights.
    -

  29. Alpha or Omega September 23, 2014 at 6:06 pm -      #929

    @tmwta
    “Apparently Snake beat Chief in spirit (Chief has the award) due to people now claiming he gets hammer space and his entire arsenal (Which is BS IMO).”
    /
    To be fair, it was mostly because L-W kinda restricted a lot of his weapons, and Snake did pull out his giant rail gun out of nowhere.

  30. GMoney September 23, 2014 at 6:07 pm -      #930

    “We ALWAYS assume a characters limit is the greatest thing he has shown to do, unless he otherwise specifically states his limit.”

    I see you ignored the other part of my comment. In Episode 2 we see Dooku tear a large, man+ sized chunk of Rock out of a wall. We are later told that Dooku was weaker than Vader. Again, I am not saying that Vader will rag doll Chief like he could a normal person, but Chief resisting the Force with no struggle like you insist is not true. If he can even resist as we have never seen a non-force sensitive resist the force.

    “Size =/= Opposing forces.
    It’s like you didn’t even fucking read my explanation.”

    And when have we ever been told or shown that opposing force can resist the force? We aren’t. In fact, we have seen people, struggle futilely in the air when being gripped by the force but falling to change anything. Your theory, while valid in the scenario you used it in is not valid when it comes to the force. What is MC going to push against? He doesn’t have the leverage to use his strength. Let me give an example, it would be like a person in 0G pushing against a waft of air. He cannot use his muscles to resist the air.

    “Objects don’t create opposing forces.
    Jesus christ, now i’m sure you didn’t read my explanation.
    …And what you said here doesn’t even make sense, are you saying the Force doesn’t have a limit to how much it can lift? Caus if that’s what you’re saying, just gtfo.”

    I’m not saying that. I am saying that because we have seen a weaker force user lift and manipulate something as big or bigger than master chief that Vader, who has been claimed to be Dooku’s superior in power, should be able to do it. And I have another question. Master Chief using his strength has been brought up as a reason as to why he cannot be lifted but now that we have some evidence that Vader can manipulate beings of MC’s weight how exactly is Chief going to resist? He needs something to push off of or to pull to use his strength.

  31. GMoney September 23, 2014 at 6:18 pm -      #931

    “It takes quite a bit of concentration to move really heavy things. Which Chief counts as at 500kg. Concentration that is hard or impossible to maintain when what you are lifting is shooting you. There’s a reason non-force sensitive bounty hunters, who weigh less, are not as physically capable, and are armored less than Chief can still take down Jedi knights.”

    Yes, being shot at does inhibit their concentration but assuming that Vader has enough time to use the force in the time it takes for MC to aim at him he could knock MC down. While he wouldn’t be able to pin MC down as MC can use the floor and push himself up it will give Vader time to execute his next move.

  32. the_man_with The_Answers September 23, 2014 at 6:59 pm -      #932

    “I’m not saying that. I am saying that because we have seen a weaker force user lift and manipulate something as big or bigger than master chief that Vader, who has been claimed to be Dooku’s superior in power, should be able to do it.”

    That was before Vader lost 1/3+ of his body and got dumped into an extremely uncomfortable suit.

    ” in the time it takes for MC to aim ”

    Ummm, really really quick (Managed to pull off 8 headshots on multiple targets while firing one handed, pulling the trigger as fast as he can, while sprinting). Not to mention Chief can aim and effectively hit Vader from hundreds of meters away. You need to drop this image of Chief standing, out of cover, 10m-20m away right in front of Vader.

    “he could knock MC down”

    It takes concentration to move heavy things, and they generally don’t get moved very fast. It takes some level of a build up. I haven’t seen anything indicating that Vader, in a moments notice, can use the force powerful enough to really do anything significant to Chief.
    -

  33. GMoney September 23, 2014 at 7:16 pm -      #933

    “That was before Vader lost 1/3+ of his body and got dumped into an extremely uncomfortable suit.”

    Besides slowing him down somewhat how does that disadvantage him? If anything I’d say it gives him an advantage over a normal force user as Vader won’t be put down by one bullet.

    “It takes concentration to move heavy things, and they generally don’t get moved very fast. It takes some level of a build up. I haven’t seen anything indicating that Vader, in a moments notice, can use the force powerful enough to really do anything significant to Chief.”

    It took less than a second for Dooku to rip piped off the wall. And again, he dosent need to lift Chief, which is much harder than just knocking him down. It would be like how knocking over a table is easier than picking it up and throwing it.

  34. Ragnorke September 23, 2014 at 7:38 pm -      #934

    “I see you ignored the other part of my comment. In Episode 2 we see Dooku tear a large, man+ sized chunk of Rock out of a wall. We are later told that Dooku was weaker than Vader. ”

    Association Fallacy.
    Being “weaker” does not mean worse in every aspect. The only way power-scaling would apply in this situation is if:
    1. Vader was shown to overpower Doku using the force.
    2. Vader was specifically stated to be able to lift heavier things than Doku using the force.
    Neither of those have happened, therefore there is no powerscaling here. So that argument is a fallacy.

    “And when have we ever been told or shown that opposing force can resist the force? We aren’t.”

    Because of physics.
    If you want to try and prove something against the laws of existence, you need EXTREMELY solid proof to do so. Proof which does not exist.

    “In fact, we have seen people, struggle futilely in the air when being gripped by the force but falling to change anything”

    LOL, yea, caus all those people can bench 4 tons and weigh as much as chief. Gotcha.
    I’v gone over this time & time again, and you’re bringing nothing new to the table. So stop with this crap.

    “Your theory, while valid in the scenario you used it in is not valid when it comes to the force.”

    Yes, it is.
    Your bullshit theory on the other hand has no evidence to support it.

    “What is MC going to push against? He doesn’t have the leverage to use his strength. Let me give an example, it would be like a person in 0G pushing against a waft of air. He cannot use his muscles to resist the air.”

    Are you fucking kidding me?
    Chief ISNT in 0 gravity here. Using “The Force” does not in ANY WAY replicate the conditions of being in 0 gravity.
    Chief will have solid ground, and he will have gravity, which he will use to counter Vaders force.

    “He cannot use his muscles to resist the air.”

    Tensing muscles to resist being displaced by air is completely possible, so not sure what you’re trying to say here.

    “I am saying that because we have seen a weaker force user lift and manipulate something as big or bigger than master chief”

    For the tenth time, objects do not create their own fucking forces.
    And when has anyone CASUALLY lifted something that weighs as much as Chief anyways? Completely ignoring Chiefs strength, chances are Vader STILL wouldn’t be able to reliably lift him.

    ” Vader, who has been claimed to be Dooku’s superior in power, should be able to do it. ”

    BEEP BEEP!
    Do you hear that? it’s the sound of the fucking fallacy alarm.

    “but now that we have some evidence that Vader can manipulate beings of MC’s weight how exactly is Chief going to resist?”

    What the fuck evidence are you talking about? There is no evidence of this.

    ” He needs something to push off of or to pull to use his strength.”

    Oh i don’t know, the fucking ground maybe.

    “to use the force in the time it takes for MC to aim at him he could knock MC down. ”

    Oh look, there goes the unsupported bullshit alarm.

    “as Vader won’t be put down by one bullet.”

    Why not exactly?
    Caus he tanked plasma? which is nothing like a solid bullet?

  35. Friendlysociopath September 23, 2014 at 8:18 pm -      #935

    Wait, doesn’t Chief have magnetic boots? If he does then that’s just extra force for Vader to overcome.
    The battlefield also becomes slightly more important than it already was- it’s actually fairly probably that they would be on a ship of some kind.

  36. Commander Cross September 23, 2014 at 8:26 pm -      #936

    @Friendlysociopath at #935

    If anyone wanted to go and consider The Meta from Red vs Blue to go fight Vader, would earlier-fight worthy incarnations for both sides be more reasonable, or should someone opt for latest incarnations by chance?

    Just taking shots in the dark here, with or without any E.U allowed, it makes a difference to say the least.

    I’d hope to hear someone go and get another Red vs Blue-related fight in order, if it means anything and if it’s gonna be The Meta vs Darth Vader, anyone should know which incarnations for both sides would be fairest and whatnot, and whether or not Scarab Guns are allowed among other things.

  37. Friendlysociopath September 23, 2014 at 8:38 pm -      #937

    @Commander Cross
    Sir, the Meta would rape movie Vader, and EU Vader would rape the Meta. There is no possibility of a fair battle between the two without extreme nerfing of one side or another.

    I’m going to submit a battle idea in a bit, wonder if throwing the Meta into the mix would be fun… that poor Golden Gate bridge…

  38. the_man_with The_Answers September 23, 2014 at 8:48 pm -      #938

    “Besides slowing him down somewhat how does that disadvantage him? If anything I’d say it gives him an advantage over a normal force user as Vader won’t be put down by one bullet.”

    It seems to have hampered some elements of his force use, in that it is harder for him to channel it through one hand. That and an uncomfortable suit means concentration is harder to hold (Not that he has an issue with that, but he can’t concentrate like he did when he wasn’t constantly uncomfortable)

    “t took less than a second for Dooku to rip piped off the wall. And again, he dosent need to lift Chief, which is much harder than just knocking him down. It would be like how knocking over a table is easier than picking it up and throwing it.”

    Like Ragnoroke just said, being more powerful in the force doesn’t necessarily translate to everything. Case in point, Chief is considered to be the best of the SPARTAN-IIs, but at the same time he isn’t the absolute best at any one trait.

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=1DDSDPZN8zk

    Anakin in his prime. Both look like they are exerting as much as they can. When they repel, that is the force combined between the two acting on them. Chief weighs 5x more than either individual. It was also a build-up to the full release.

    Also, the music could not be more appropriate. Wasn’t expecting it and it just made my day that little bit better.
    -

  39. The Amazing Dualgunner September 23, 2014 at 9:46 pm -      #939

    “We ALWAYS assume a characters limit is the greatest thing he has shown to do, unless he otherwise specifically states his limit.”

    I know you know this, but to clarify–really only Word of God can state a character’s power above its feats; character statements are usually considered hyperbole by FP standards. Example: Cell claims to be a “universe buster,” but never exemplifies this power, so even though we see other characters saying things along the same lines, FP’s general consensus on the issue is that Cell is not a universe buster until he shows a feat of busting a universe*.



    *iirc

  40. GMoney September 23, 2014 at 10:10 pm -      #940

    “Association Fallacy.”

    No it is not. An Association Fallacy would be me saying that Vader can use Force Lightning because he is stronger than Dooku and Dooku could do it. Both characters are shown to use the same ability and Vader is stated to be stronger than Dooku, therefore it is reasonable to state that Vader has a stronger TK than Dooku. For an example of what I’m talking about: Frieza was more powerful than Goku in the Frieza Saga but that doesn’t mean he could use Kamehamaha because he never learned it. But his Ki blasts, an ability that both he and Goku are shown to do, are stronger than Goku’s because He is stronger than Goku.

    “Because of physics.
    If you want to try and prove something against the laws of existence, you need EXTREMELY solid proof to do so. Proof which does not exist.”

    *Sigh* He still needs something to provide leverage. While he might be able to return motion to his arms by using his body as a counter-force but he has nowhere to provide tension. For example, if a speeding car hit chief and he used the ground as a counter-balance to bring the strength of his muscles to bear he would stop the car, but if he was floating and a car hit him, he can’t bring his muscles to bear as there is nothing for him to push off of.

    “LOL, yea, caus all those people can bench 4 tons and weigh as much as chief. Gotcha.
    I’v gone over this time & time again, and you’re bringing nothing new to the table. So stop with this crap.”

    Again, he is using the ground as his counter balance so he can bring his muscles to bear. If there was nothing but empty space behind Cheif than no matter how hard he pushed He wouldn’t be able to use his muscles. And the weight would propel him backwards.

    “Tensing muscles to resist being displaced by air is completely possible, so not sure what you’re trying to say here.”

    Yes it is possible. If I am about to blown over sideways by a gust of wind my legs will use the ground to exert a counter force to stop the wind. But if Chief is pushed up he has nothing to exert his strength into.

    “For the tenth time, objects do not create their own fucking forces.
    And when has anyone CASUALLY lifted something that weighs as much as Chief anyways? Completely ignoring Chiefs strength, chances are Vader STILL wouldn’t be able to reliably lift him.”

    Yoda has, Palpatine has, Dooku has and because Vader is stronger than Dooku and they both can use the same technique, it isn’t illogical to state that Vader can exert greater force than Dooku could.

    “Do you hear that? it’s the sound of the fucking fallacy alarm.”

    Yes I do, it’s going off because of your Fallacy-Fallacy.

    “Oh i don’t know, the fucking ground maybe.”

    If Vader lifts Chief up, he won’t have a ground to push off of and my idea about knocking him over wouldn’t include pinning him to the ground just pushing him into a fall. Unless their is evidence of Chief recovering from being at less 45 degrees with the ground without help.

    “Caus he tanked plasma? which is nothing like a solid bullet?”

    We don’t into it’s Plasma, We are never told what Blaster bolts are composed of. But we do know that it creates kinetic energy, as seen in almost every scene where a blaster hits a wall, sometimes doing as much damage as Chief’s bullets do. While Chief’s rounds are penetrating, which would help against Vader, Vader took 4 blaster bolts without moving back an inch. Whether using the force or just his armor, he was completely unaffected by the kinetic energy of the blaster bolt. While I do believe MC’s bullets to have a higher kinetic impact than blaster bolts and will move Vader if he is hit, it remains to be seen how much they move him by.

    “The battlefield also becomes slightly more important than it already was- it’s actually fairly probably that they would be on a ship of some kind.”

    That’s a good point.
    @Admin What kind of battlefield will the match take place in? Also, is EU included? I know that new canon has put EU into a state of flux but Ive seen that some posters are going with what was canon in regards to when the match was posted for SW EU.

    “It seems to have hampered some elements of his force use, in that it is harder for him to channel it through one hand. That and an uncomfortable suit means concentration is harder to hold (Not that he has an issue with that, but he can’t concentrate like he did when he wasn’t constantly uncomfortable)”

    With the exception of force-jumping, when are we shown that it inhibits his force use? I know in the EU there’s an explanation for it but we aren’t using that. And while it is possible the suit gives him minor discomfort, the 4th degree burns inflicted on him from being in cased in lava would have burned away his sensory systems in his skin.

    “Anakin in his prime. Both look like they are exerting as much as they can. When they repel, that is the force combined between the two acting on them. Chief weighs 5x more than either individual. It was also a build-up to the full release.”

    We aren’t clear what happened here. It is possible that both penetrated each other’s guard at the same time or it could have been a build up of energy. Additionally, Obi Wan and Anakin’s, for lack of a better term, force shield could have only been penetrated partially and the full effect of the force push was lessened. I think this could be possible as we do see the force propel droids and humanoids far further.

    “I know you know this, but to clarify–really only Word of God can state a character’s power above its feats; character statements are usually considered hyperbole by FP standards. Example: Cell claims to be a “universe buster,” but never exemplifies this power, so even though we see other characters saying things along the same lines, FP’s general consensus on the issue is that Cell is not a universe buster until he shows a feat of busting a universe”

    Really? I thought it depended on the validity of the speaker with Word of God being unquestionable. To use your example, Cell has often boasted about his power saying that he could never be equalled but this is false.
    What reason would Palpatine have to lie to Grievous? If anything, the fact that Anakin is stronger is the whole reason Palpatine chose him to become his next apprentice.

  41. GMoney September 23, 2014 at 10:18 pm -      #941

    “And the Weight would propel him backwards” I meant say “The force would propel him backwards”

  42. Darth Bombad September 23, 2014 at 10:27 pm -      #942

    @The Amazing Dualgunner
    “Only Word of God can state a character’s power above its feats;
    character statements are usually considered hyperbole by FP standards.
    Example: Cell claims to be a “universe buster,” but never exemplifies this power,
    so even though we see other characters saying things along the same lines,
    FP’s general consensus on the issue is that Cell is not a universe buster
    until he shows a feat of busting a universe*.”

    Funny people absolutely refuse to except this logic when it comes to the Q.

  43. the_man_with The_Answers September 24, 2014 at 12:45 am -      #943

    “Again, he is using the ground as his counter balance so he can bring his muscles to bear. If there was nothing but empty space behind Cheif than no matter how hard he pushed He wouldn’t be able to use his muscles. And the weight would propel him backwards.”

    I’m not disagreeing with your argument, I’m just adding to it a little (You are correct in that with no leverage there is no way for something to resist). It is possible to use the ground for some amount of leverage, by angling yourself towards the incoming force, altering the force vector so that part of it is fighting gravity and friction more than it would be if the force vector was acting perpendicular to the body and parallel to the ground.

    But again, you are right in that merely flexing muscles does not compensate for an incoming force with no other form of support or leverage.

    “Yes it is possible. If I am about to blown over sideways by a gust of wind my legs will use the ground to exert a counter force to stop the wind. But if Chief is pushed up he has nothing to exert his strength into.”

    A push implies horizontal force. Lifting him with the force is what you’re talking about. Which should be substantially harder to do (A horizontal push, you are mostly fighting the frictional force, while a lift you are taking the full gravitational force). Vader hasn’t shown the force to easily lift a 500kg shooting object as of yet. Not as easily as you might be imagining anyways. 500kg is a lot of mass.

    “We don’t into it’s Plasma, We are never told what Blaster bolts are composed of. But we do know that it creates kinetic energy, as seen in almost every scene where a blaster hits a wall, sometimes doing as much damage as Chief’s bullets do.”

    Did you not read my previous posts on this? Blasters are low in the typical definition of kinetic energy, but high in their thermal energy content. They create force from small contact explosions, while considerably powerful, do not penetrate well.

    “Vader took 4 blaster bolts without moving back an inch. Whether using the force or just his armor, he was completely unaffected by the kinetic energy of the blaster bolt.”

    If he blocked it with the force, he shouldn’t move. And he didn’t.
    And you are constantly mistaking kinetic energy for force. Kinetic energy is the one half the mass of the projectile multiplied by the velocity squared. If we assume a generous 1g projectile weight, and use the 90m/s, we get a wopping 4 Joules of kinetic energy, literally a thousandth of the 7.62x51mm projectiles moving at 905m/s from Chief’s gun.

    Force is the mass multiplied by the acceleration. In this case, it is hard to tell exactly how much their force is, because we don’t know what fraction of a second it takes the projectiles to go from their respective velocities down to zero. However, both should take roughly the same time, meaning the bullet which weighs 10x more (on the low end) and has to decelerate 10x faster, is going to impart 100x more force on contact, with all that force being concentrated on the small tip of the bullet, creating extremely high pressure allowing it to penetrate.

    The main source for the blaster bolt is the thermal explosion on contact. All the particles extremely rapidly expand outward. And while this rapid expansion is a significantly higher acceleration than the deceleration for the bullet, the blast is omni-directional, distributing the force in a much wider area and limiting penetration.

    Theoretically the bullet impacts shouldn’t really move Vader at all, at least not by sheer force. IF, stressing on IF, they don’t penetrate, all of the force will be absorbed by the armor and “communicated” into the body. Which will hurt like all hell, and cause the body to react reflexively to the intense pain. In the video, the soldier wasn’t so much force to the ground by the sheer force of the bullet impacting, but instead all of the air being knocked out of him and his body recoiling in in response to the trauma (Apparently the trauma of even a pistol cartridge impacting body armor is like having someone swing a baseball bat as hard as they can into your chest, 7.62x51mm has significantly more punch than pistol cartridges).

    “With the exception of force-jumping, when are we shown that it inhibits his force use? I know in the EU there’s an explanation for it but we aren’t using that. And while it is possible the suit gives him minor discomfort, the 4th degree burns inflicted on him from being in cased in lava would have burned away his sensory systems in his skin.”

    Can he channel the force effectively through his robotics? Are there times in the movie where he used the Force effectively from his robot hand?

    Also, he can quite clearly feel external pain, so I see no reason to believe that he lost all sensation, and that suit is quite invasive, as well as his electronics. Phantom pains are also probably a bitch for him.

    “We aren’t clear what happened here. It is possible that both penetrated each other’s guard at the same time or it could have been a build up of energy. Additionally, Obi Wan and Anakin’s, for lack of a better term, force shield could have only been penetrated partially and the full effect of the force push was lessened. I think this could be possible as we do see the force propel droids and humanoids far further.”

    If they both penetrated, like they obviously did, then you would expect the rest of the pent up force to gush in afterwards.
    -

  44. erickyboo September 24, 2014 at 2:40 am -      #944

    “Wait, doesn’t Chief have magnetic boots? If he does then that’s just extra force for Vader to overcome.
    The battlefield also becomes slightly more important than it already was- it’s actually fairly probably that they would be on a ship of some kind.


    Yes, he can activate them indeed. You can view the effect here: www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rhsDEQCCQo
    With Palmer.

    And battlefield, yes. A ship or something is what I imagine them fighting on.

  45. Ragnorke September 24, 2014 at 9:00 am -      #945

    ” Both characters are shown to use the same ability and Vader is stated to be stronger than Dooku,”

    THIS is a fucking fallacy.
    Vader is stronger than Doku, yes, but he is never said to be stronger in EVERY aspect.
    You are ASSUMING he’s stronger in what he can do with the force, but that isn’t proven nor supported by anything we see.
    So powerscaling doesn’t apply here.

    ” but if he was floating and a car hit him, he can’t bring his muscles to bear as there is nothing for him to push off of.”

    This is what you aren’t getting. Chief WOULD NOT be floating here to begin with, because Vader is NOT capable of doing that.

    “But if Chief is pushed up he has nothing to exert his strength into.”

    So… you completely missed the “have your friend lift you up” example didn’t you?
    This point has already been countered. Next.

    ” it isn’t illogical to state that Vader can exert greater force than Dooku could.”

    It isn’t illogical, but it isn’t supported or proven either. So we assume he cannot.
    You’re using powerscaling incorrectly here.

    “If Vader lifts Chief up, he won’t have a ground to push off of”

    Wow. Ok. You COMPLETELY ignored my “have your friend lift you up example”
    Go read it again, then realise how stupid what you just said is.

    “We don’t into it’s Plasma, We are never told what Blaster bolts are composed of”

    Except for the fact that they look and act like plasma?
    You would have to prove they are NOT plasma.

    “But we do know that it creates kinetic energy”

    Jesus christ… for the millionth time… Kinetic Energy =/= Pressure.
    The amount of times we’ve gone over this is ridiculous.

    “as seen in almost every scene where a blaster hits a wall, sometimes doing as much damage as Chief’s bullets do”

    Because of thermal energy, NOT because of force/pressure.
    Not even remotely the same.

    “Vader took 4 blaster bolts without moving back an inch. Whether using the force or just his armor, he was completely unaffected by the kinetic energy of the blaster bolt”

    1. If he was using the force (which the hand gesture suggests he was) he won’t be anywhere near fast enough to block all the bullets, leading to an instant victory for MC.
    2. Blaster Bolts do not create any form of pressurized forces whatsoever from what we can see, therefore tanking Blaster Bolts is irrelevant when going up against bullets.

    “While I do believe MC’s bullets to have a higher kinetic impact than blaster bolts and will move Vader if he is hit”

    No. As far as evidence is concerned, the bullets will pierce his armor and fucking kill him.
    Assuming that Vader will just “move” is overwanking Vaders armor without any evidence to support it.

    “What reason would Palpatine have to lie to Grievous? If anything, the fact that Anakin is stronger is the whole reason Palpatine chose him to become his next apprentice.”

    Ok, seriously, for the last time:
    Anakin IS stronger than Doku, ok? No one’s denying that.
    But he could be stronger due to being faster, or physically stronger, or more talented with a lightsaber, or having better reaction times, or a million other things (which all fall under the use of “The Force”)
    But assuming he can lift more weight (or even as much weight) as Doku can using the Force, is a fallacy.

  46. the_man_with The_Answers September 24, 2014 at 10:24 am -      #946

    “2. Blaster Bolts do not create any form of pressurized forces whatsoever from what we can see,”

    They create a high-pressure blast wave on impact. It’s just omni-directional

    In your lifting example with a friend, by tensing up and basing out, what you are doing is altering your center of gravity and hampering the leverage of your friend. The Force doesn’t care about that. As far as vertically lifting things with the force goes, mass is mass.

  47. Friendlysociopath September 24, 2014 at 10:48 am -      #947

    “In your lifting example with a friend, by tensing up and basing out, what you are doing is altering your center of gravity and hampering the leverage of your friend. The Force doesn’t care about that. As far as vertically lifting things with the force goes, mass is mass.”

    Betting $2 Rag disagrees- any takers?

  48. Ragnorke September 24, 2014 at 11:19 am -      #948

    ” The Force doesn’t care about that. As far as vertically lifting things with the force goes, mass is mass.”

    I disagree with this. What exactly supports this theory?
    The way i see it, when “The Force” is used to displace something it just acts as a regular old force, nothing more. And i have no reason to believe it would act differently.
    Altering your centre of mass to counter it should be perfectly viable.

    “They create a high-pressure blast wave on impact. It’s just omni-directional”

    If it’s omni-directional, the Pascal created would be negligible. Since the greater the area hit, the less the pressure.

    “Betting $2 Rag disagrees- any takers?”

    *gives you 2 bucks*

  49. the_man_with The_Answers September 24, 2014 at 12:15 pm -      #949

    “I disagree with this. What exactly supports this theory?
    The way i see it, when “The Force” is used to displace something it just acts as a regular old force, nothing more. And i have no reason to believe it would act differently.
    Altering your centre of mass to counter it should be perfectly viable.”

    When someone else is lifting you physically, leverage takes a huge part. Your center of gravity, their center of gravity, the type of lift (With that the type of lever action they are preforming and all the factors that play in there), and so on. Lifting something with the Force is, more or less, just applying a vertical force vector that ignores leverage all together. Like if you were metallic, and there was a magnet on the ceiling. If the magnet, at the distance you are from it, has the magnetic force to defeat the gravitational forces on you, no amount of changes in your stance, or tensing of your muscles could prevent you from rising towards it.

    If the force is acting directly vertical, you have no leverage, and no way to get it. You can’t angle your body to redirect the force, as there is no surface for you to create significant friction with, and no horizontal force to act on you to create that friction even if there was a surface. The only force vector you have on your side is that of gravity, and it is already exactly opposite to the uplifting force. It will always stay straight down regardless of how you position your body (Not that you’d want to change it, as you’d just make it easier for the uplifting force).

    The question isn’t how Chief can use the power of his super muscles to counter-act the Force, it is can the Force used by Vader exceed 4,900N or so, and in an easy enough/fast enough fashion for it to be viable in combat.

    “If it’s omni-directional, the Pascal created would be negligible. Since the greater the area hit, the less the pressure”

    I’m saying it still retains a high degree of pressure overall, as expected from a small and sudden explosion. It has enough force per unit of area to knock down and/or incapacitate people in close vicinity to the blast. It doesn’t, however, have enough pressure in any single concentrated point like would be required to be effective at penetrating armor.

  50. Ragnorke September 24, 2014 at 12:28 pm -      #950

    ” Like if you were metallic, and there was a magnet on the ceiling. If the magnet, at the distance you are from it, has the magnetic force to defeat the gravitational forces on you, no amount of changes in your stance, or tensing of your muscles could prevent you from rising towards it.”

    True.
    HOWEVER, you’re example requires particles (or perfectly symmetrical objects, in both shape and weight distribution) to be valid.
    The very same magnet example, can very easily not work, when the angles of the forces with respect to the centre of gravity & the shape of the object are taken into consideration.

    “The question isn’t how Chief can use the power of his super muscles to counter-act the Force, ”

    His “super muscles” would very easily allow him to counter/negate most forces, including a force choke, except being lifted vertically up… but then again, i’m not totally convinced Vader can do that.

    “It will always stay straight down regardless of how you position your body (Not that you’d want to change it, as you’d just make it easier for the uplifting force).”

    Indeed gravity will always be vertically downwards, and it will always act on your centre of gravity.
    Vaders force however, will not always be acting on your centre of gravity. Which is what i’m trying to say.
    So in a sense, yes, you can alter your body to weaken the effect of an upward pulling force, by changing the positioning of your centre of gravity with respect to that force.

    “It doesn’t, however, have enough pressure in any single concentrated point like would be required to be effective at penetrating armor.”

    Which was my point.

  51. the_man_with The_Answers September 24, 2014 at 12:47 pm -      #951

    “True.
    HOWEVER, you’re example requires particles (or perfectly symmetrical objects, in both shape and weight distribution) to be valid.
    The very same magnet example, can very easily not work, when the angles of the forces with respect to the centre of gravity & the shape of the object are taken into consideration.”

    Except the Force, like the magnet would be, is acting uniformly across whatever it is lifting. If it can overcome the weight at the heaviest point, the rest is irrelevant regardless of weight distribution or position.

    “Vaders force however, will not always be acting on your centre of gravity. Which is what i’m trying to say.”

    Which is the problem because GMoney has been specifically talking about straight upwards lift. He’s mentioned, multiple times now, that yes it is totally possible to counter-act The Force when it is acting in a horizontal or non-vertical direction, but a vertical lift would be impossible to counter-act.

    “So in a sense, yes, you can alter your body to weaken the effect of an upward pulling force, by changing the positioning of your centre of gravity with respect to that force.”

    The Force appears to apply uniformly upon that which it is lifting.

    “Which was my point.”

    I was clarifying for the sake of GMoney. Your original statement implies that blasters have very little pressure, which is true on a comparison to the point pressure of a bullet, but not true from a technical standpoint. A summation of the pressure in the wave would likely result in a greater total pressure than that of the bullet. It’s just that the pressure is not concentrated and decreases rapidly with distance according to the inverse square law.

    Without that clarification, GMoney may think you are arguing that blasters don’t display the concussive pressure wave that they do on screen, when what you are really saying is that they just don’t have a bullet’s pressure on a point by point basis.

  52. Ragnorke September 24, 2014 at 12:59 pm -      #952

    “Except the Force, like the magnet would be, is acting uniformly across whatever it is lifting. ”

    Hmm… fair enough.

    ” but a vertical lift would be impossible to counter-act.”

    If the force does in fact act uniformly, then yes. Is this proven though?

    “Your original statement implies that blasters have very little pressure, which is true on a comparison to the point pressure of a bullet, but not true from a technical standpoint.”

    I was responding to GMoney saying bullets wouldn’t pierce Vaders armor, so when taken in context it makes more sense.

  53. GMoney September 24, 2014 at 1:58 pm -      #953

    “he blocked it with the force, he shouldn’t move. And he didn’t.
    And you are constantly mistaking kinetic energy for force. Kinetic energy is the one half the mass of the projectile multiplied by the velocity squared. If we assume a generous 1g projectile weight, and use the 90m/s, we get a wopping 4 Joules of kinetic energy, literally a thousandth of the 7.62x51mm projectiles moving at 905m/s from Chief’s gun.

    Force is the mass multiplied by the acceleration. In this case, it is hard to tell exactly how much their force is, because we don’t know what fraction of a second it takes the projectiles to go from their respective velocities down to zero. However, both should take roughly the same time, meaning the bullet which weighs 10x more (on the low end) and has to decelerate 10x faster, is going to impart 100x more force on contact, with all that force being concentrated on the small tip of the bullet, creating extremely high pressure allowing it to penetrate.

    The main source for the blaster bolt is the thermal explosion on contact. All the particles extremely rapidly expand outward. And while this rapid expansion is a significantly higher acceleration than the deceleration for the bullet, the blast is omni-directional, distributing the force in a much wider area and limiting penetration.

    Theoretically the bullet impacts shouldn’t really move Vader at all, at least not by sheer force. IF, stressing on IF, they don’t penetrate, all of the force will be absorbed by the armor and “communicated” into the body. Which will hurt like all hell, and cause the body to react reflexively to the intense pain. In the video, the soldier wasn’t so much force to the ground by the sheer force of the bullet impacting, but instead all of the air being knocked out of him and his body recoiling in in response to the trauma (Apparently the trauma of even a pistol cartridge impacting body armor is like having someone swing a baseball bat as hard as they can into your chest, 7.62x51mm has significantly more punch than pistol cartridges).”

    Hmm. Alright you have me convinced, if one of MC’s bullets hit Vader it will knock him on his ass. But, even if it is capable of knocking him down or even unconscious if it hits the right place, will it penetrate his armor? We have seen blaster cut holes straight through people wearing armor so Chief’s bullets may have trouble getting to Vader’s body.

    “Can he channel the force effectively through his robotics? Are there times in the movie where he used the Force effectively from his robot hand?”
    –-
    Yes. He chokes the Moff who insulted him by raising his hand in a choking motion. But we have also seen him use the force without using his hands at all, such as when he chokes Captain Needa in Empire Strikes Back or when he threw objects at Luke, also in ESB.

    “Also, he can quite clearly feel external pain, so I see no reason to believe that he lost all sensation, and that suit is quite invasive, as well as his electronics. Phantom pains are also probably a bitch for him.”

    I would imagine he got used to it in the 18+ years he wore it. and while phantom pains persist for a time they generally stop a couple months after the injury.

    “If they both penetrated, like they obviously did, then you would expect the rest of the pent up force to gush in afterwards.”

    True, but it also could have been only a momentary lapse and they were unable to continue their mental assaults on each other because they were being thrown across the room.

    “Wait, doesn’t Chief have magnetic boots? If he does then that’s just extra force for Vader to overcome.
    The battlefield also becomes slightly more important than it already was- it’s actually fairly probably that they would be on a ship of some kind.”

    a ship battle would make Vader’s TK almost useless, however, it would also give him more cover and he could influence the environment to make it harder for chief, like locking all but 1 door that Vader is waiting to ambush Chief behind.

  54. erickyboo September 24, 2014 at 2:02 pm -      #954

    “a ship battle would make Vader’s TK almost useless, however, it would also give him more cover and he could influence the environment to make it harder for chief, like locking all but 1 door that Vader is waiting to ambush Chief behind.”

    Motion tracker, how can he be ambushed like that?

  55. Ragnorke September 24, 2014 at 3:13 pm -      #955

    “Hmm. Alright you have me convinced, if one of MC’s bullets hit Vader it will knock him on his ass. ”

    Err… why exactly are you assuming it’ll JUST knock him on his ass… instead of you know… penetrating his armor and killing him?

    “But, even if it is capable of knocking him down or even unconscious if it hits the right place, will it penetrate his armor? We have seen blaster cut holes straight through people wearing armor”

    Ah okay, nevermind my question above. Here’s the explanation:

    Because pressure tends to penetrate things. Forexample, i could penetrate some pretty strong materials with something as simple as a needle, which wouldn’t require much Kinetic Energy (or much of any form of energy) to do.

    While Blaster Bolts have incredible amounts of energy, which Vaders armor MIGHT be able to tank (or it was just the force), they create little to no pressure.
    Insulating materials can withstand great amounts of energy, but that has absolutely nothing to do with withstanding being stabbed with a sword.

    The most likely explanation is that the Blaster Bolts didn’t actually “cut holes” but rather BURNT holes, using Thermal Energy.
    Sure there’s also some Kinetic Energy, but not enough to create the kind of pressure that a bullet creates.

    So not only do solid bullets create a much larger force, due to having more weight & acceleration, but they also create a crap ton of more pressure due to their shape.
    The standard formula for pressure (pascal) = Force / Area.

    Therefore, as you may now see, Vader hasn’t shown the necessary feats to resist this.
    We can ASSUME that he could tank a few shots… Simply because his armor looks badass & it’s futuristic and what not… but there’s no evidence to really suggest it.

  56. Warlock Lowk September 24, 2014 at 4:34 pm -      #956

    Some part of me thinks that whoever is writing for halo now reads BankGambling and is purposely trying to troll Halo supporters.
    End of an Escalation arc, Chief’s entire team keeps their forerunner weapons. What does chief end up with in the end? A fucking battle rifle.

  57. Commander Cross September 24, 2014 at 4:47 pm -      #957

    @Warlock Lowk at #956

    Yet no word on any Scarab Guns being Canon!?
    WTH is wrong with the writers in that case, when 8 times out of 10 it could be interesting if it were Canon?

    ___

    Anyway, So both sides are gonna get dicked around by anyone monitoring either side to begin with, right?

    Also, why was The Halo Live-Action Movie Cancelled again, despite not being too fond of Halo myself?*

    1.) (I’d prefer Red vs Blue in terms of story-lines although RvB might be Canon to Halo.)

  58. GMoney September 24, 2014 at 5:28 pm -      #958

    “Err… why exactly are you assuming it’ll JUST knock him on his ass… instead of you know… penetrating his armor and killing him?”

    Because we do see his armor tank a glancing blow from a. Lightsaber. Even if you believe that Vader used the force to block those blaster bolts he tanked a saber, an weapon much more power than a bullet or a blaster. And, as many people have pointed out, a lightsaber does not give off any heat but instead works by ripping molecules apart.

  59. Ragnorke September 24, 2014 at 6:10 pm -      #959

    ” he tanked a saber, an weapon much more power than a bullet or a blaster. ”

    Being more “powerful” is a very vague and meaningless term here.
    Seriously, it’s a completely different form of damage. It’s the insulator & needle example all over again.

    And wasn’t this done with his shoulder pads? Which are… you know… noticeably very different from the rest of his suit?
    Visual evidence proves that most of his suit is a completely different material.

  60. the_man_with The_Answers September 24, 2014 at 7:48 pm -      #960

    “We have seen blaster cut holes straight through people wearing armor ”

    Straight through? I only remember black charred holes on the point of impact, and they don’t appear to go all the way through. Seems more like a combination of flash-heating internals, and potentially damage potentially caused from an over-pressure wave (Whoever hit is basically at ground zero, so the pressure won’t have dropped as much over distance)

    ” But, even if it is capable of knocking him down or even unconscious if it hits the right place, will it penetrate his armor?”

    For a 7.62x51mm, IIRC, the maximum pressure is something like 50,000 – 60,000 psi. Could Vader’s armor handle repeated moments of that much pressure without being compromised (Imagine this media-2.web.britannica.com/eb-media/65/73265-004-7AC2C3C9.jpg balanced on a 1 inch wide pole, momentarily placed somewhere on Vader. Do you think his armor integrity would hold)?

    I could see maybe the straight hard parts withstanding it, but the lighter areas I’m just not seeing it. Repeated hits to the skull are going to be dangerous regardless of penetration.

    “Yes. He chokes the Moff who insulted him by raising his hand in a choking motion. But we have also seen him use the force without using his hands at all, such as when he chokes Captain Needa in Empire Strikes Back or when he threw objects at Luke, also in ESB.”

    But we never see him lift anything heavy without channeling the Force through the hands. Otherwise everyone is just stupid and willing to risk their life to make a flashy hand gesture when it is apparently irrelevant to the Force action itself.

    “he tanked a saber, an weapon much more power than a bullet or a blaster.”

    Sabers defeat via melting from high temperature. I could make some super insulated armor out of an extremely heat tolerant ceramic, but at the same time it might not be as hard as a more thermally vulnerable material.

    “And, as many people have pointed out, a lightsaber does not give off any heat but instead works by ripping molecules apart.”

    Derp. Chemistry harder brah:
    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bond-dissociation_energy

    Thermal energy IS how you rip molecules apart.
    -

  61. GMoney September 24, 2014 at 9:12 pm -      #961

    “And wasn’t this done with his shoulder pads? Which are… you know… noticeably very different from the rest of his suit?
    Visual evidence proves that most of his suit is a completely different material.”

    Yes. His helmet, shoulders, and chest plate are made of a different, presumably stronger material. Which i Vader’s only vital area because Vader lost his limbs.

    “Straight through? I only remember black charred holes on the point of impact, and they don’t appear to go all the way through. Seems more like a combination of flash-heating internals, and potentially damage potentially caused from an over-pressure wave (Whoever hit is basically at ground zero, so the pressure won’t have dropped as much over distance)”

    Yes. It goes straight through super battle droids on several occasions, but blaster bolts may react differently against metals than they do against organics.

    “But we never see him lift anything heavy without channeling the Force through the hands. Otherwise everyone is just stupid and willing to risk their life to make a flashy hand gesture when it is apparently irrelevant to the Force action itself.”

    We see him throw an ~8 ft long set of pipes at Luke with no movement. Idk about the hand gesture, as we see force users use the force perfectly fine without the hand gestures. Maybe using them increases the power of their attack. That’s my theory atleast.

    “Sabers defeat via melting from high temperature. I could make some super insulated armor out of an extremely heat tolerant ceramic, but at the same time it might not be as hard as a more thermally vulnerable material.

    Derp. Chemistry harder brah:
    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bond-dissociation_energy

    Thermal energy IS how you rip molecules apart.”

    But they don’t generate heat. If a saber was hot enough to carve through metal, just being near it would cause burns and even when people put a saber to someone’s throat they don’t get a burn. Also the handle would heat up eventually making it impossible to hold without special gloves. A popular theory is that the saber simply cuts straight through molecules, pushing them aside and the reason wounds are cauterized is from friction. But alas, it is but a theory. A lightsaber looks like and behaves like a plasma weapon yet does not generate the heat that plasma would.

  62. The Amazing Dualgunner September 24, 2014 at 9:36 pm -      #962

    “The weapon consisted of a blade of pure plasma emitted from the hilt and suspended in a force containment field. The field contained the immense heat of the plasma, protecting the wielder, and allowed the blade to keep its shape. ”
    –From the Wookiepedia ( starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Lightsaber ), which is a wiki, I know, but it offers a counterargument to the “blade projects no heat” argument.

  63. Jake_Uzumaki September 24, 2014 at 9:43 pm -      #963

    Lightsaber mechanics according to the EU allow it to only project heat when cutting, in fact that is how it’s cut, in all other instances it’s a cool energy blade that can be used as a flashlight. This is why even in Disney canon we often see Jedi ignite their lightsabers in dark caves.

  64. the_man_with The_Answers September 25, 2014 at 12:36 am -      #964

    “But they don’t generate heat. If a saber was hot enough to carve through metal, just being near it would cause burns and even when people put a saber to someone’s throat they don’t get a burn. Also the handle would heat up eventually making it impossible to hold without special gloves. A popular theory is that the saber simply cuts straight through molecules, pushing them aside and the reason wounds are cauterized is from friction. But alas, it is but a theory. A lightsaber looks like and behaves like a plasma weapon yet does not generate the heat that plasma would.”

    So instead of just assuming it has a very efficient way to contain radiated energy, we jump to the conclusion that it just cuts molecules like a blade (despite having no edge) while simultaneously creating enough friction to literally cauterize the wound. Instead of you know, being extremely hot to the touch like is implied literally everywhere.
    -

  65. Ragnorke September 25, 2014 at 10:46 am -      #965

    “We see him throw an ~8 ft long set of pipes at Luke with no movement”

    I dunno about you, but that doesn’t sound too heavy to me.

    “But they don’t generate heat. If a saber was hot enough to carve through metal, just being near it would cause burns and even when people put a saber to someone’s throat they don’t get a burn.”

    It obviously just contains the energy very well.
    Everything you said here is an invalid point. Lightsabers DO generate thermal energy, but that heat is limited to the saber, and not allowed to spread/travel.

    “A popular theory is that the saber simply cuts straight through molecules, pushing them aside and the reason wounds are cauterized is from friction.”

    Meh, bullshit.

    ” A lightsaber looks like and behaves like a plasma weapon yet does not generate the heat that plasma would.”

    Indeed, it behaves & looks like a plasma weapon… and it DOES generate heat, but contains that heat.
    Visual Evidence is very clearly not on your side here.

  66. erickyboo September 27, 2014 at 4:55 pm -      #966

    “Some part of me thinks that whoever is writing for halo now reads BankGambling and is purposely trying to troll Halo supporters.
    End of an Escalation arc, Chief’s entire team keeps their forerunner weapons. What does chief end up with in the end? A fucking battle rifle.”
    DMR. If I suggest a Blue team match, what weapon should I give John if the others have their weapons?

    Also RVB is NOT canon.

  67. GrandMaster February 6, 2015 at 10:03 pm -      #967

    tinypic.com/view.php?pic=jb7p0p&s=8#.VNV-FbK9KSM
    So… This is from a comic in the new EU, I guess Vader still wins.

  68. erickyboo February 6, 2015 at 10:31 pm -      #968

    New EU..?
    aNY MORE CONTEXT? SORRY FOR CAPS.

  69. GrandMaster February 6, 2015 at 10:39 pm -      #969

    Disney wiped the EU clean for a clean slate to start it over again. That scan is part of a comic in the new EU.

  70. Jake_Uzumaki February 6, 2015 at 10:46 pm -      #970

    Its a new comic put out by Marvel and Disney and fully canon, here’s the rfull sequence
    oi60.tinypic.com/av6hqx.jpg
    oi58.tinypic.com/jb7p0p.jpg
    oi58.tinypic.com/9fsmk8.jpg
    The AT-AT fires and Vader survives relatively unscathed and snaps a Stormtroopers neck with a gesture.
    oi58.tinypic.com/21az6a1.jpg
    oi57.tinypic.com/2nhnwiv.jpg

  71. Alpha or Omega February 6, 2015 at 11:23 pm -      #971

    Yeah, Darth Vader takes it now with new feats here.
    An AT-AT is definitely more than Master Chief’s half a ton.

  72. erickyboo February 6, 2015 at 11:55 pm -      #972

    Hmm… perhaps more stuff will come out and change it up. speed seems to be of the essence with Vader then. Let more stuff come out yes yes.

    TMWTA?

  73. Nsl98 February 7, 2015 at 12:07 am -      #973

    Vader was able to deflect Hans blaster bolts in the movie, yes? That should count towards speed.

  74. CH1C4N0444 is allergic to bullets February 7, 2015 at 1:18 am -      #974

    Kinda depressing, seeing how this went from ROFLstomp with EU till Chief can actually win this back to stomp…

  75. Jake_Uzumaki February 7, 2015 at 1:22 am -      #975

    He detected Chewie’s attempt to snipe him so there’s that
    s8.postimg.org/hvv07csd1/025.jpg

  76. erickyboo February 7, 2015 at 6:20 pm -      #976

    Am I the only one who thinks star wars will go back to fluctuating inconsistent power levels for characters and things? If you look star wars rebels, you can see how weak things can be.

    Wasn’t Chewie in that sniping position for a while? I think speed will be of the essence then. I want John to have a nice chance. As for John, well there’s the fall of reach quotes…

  77. Jake_Uzumaki February 7, 2015 at 6:22 pm -      #977

    Yeah he had been set up but hadn’t been found, Vader just sensed the intent I guess.

  78. Warlock Lowk February 7, 2015 at 7:30 pm -      #978

    “Am I the only one who thinks star wars will go back to fluctuating inconsistent power levels for characters and things? If you look star wars rebels, you can see how weak things can be.”

    Since the advancements in special effects and animation Vader seemed to be pretty consistant is how powerful he is.

  79. andergriff March 21, 2015 at 7:27 pm -      #979

    bobba fett fought evenly with darth vader

  80. LadyRamkin March 21, 2015 at 8:00 pm -      #980

    And Bobba fett is essentially Lightsaber proof…. and superior to masterchief….. in just about every way…. what was your point again?

    That came across as rude…

    How is that relevant?

    Unless EU is no longer canon, in which case, Boba greatest feat is getting eaten by the Sarlacc

  81. Jake_Uzumaki March 21, 2015 at 8:11 pm -      #981

    They haven’t fought in Disney canon and Vader has straight neck snapped people and choked someone that was in orbit

  82. Alpha or Omega March 21, 2015 at 8:21 pm -      #982

    Bobba?
    /
    Anyway, Boba Fett that fought Vader was old EU.
    I also want to point out that Fett had the drop on Vader, and he still wasn’t really fighting evenly. Vader was winning and Fett kinda had to escape.
    /
    Using this to downplay Old EU Vader. smh.
    /
    Now, though, he has feats such as doing the thing with the AT-AT and choking from far distances…again.

  83. Nsl98 March 21, 2015 at 9:08 pm -      #983

    Has Boba even appeared in new EU yet?
    —-
    Movie Vader still could have won, IMO.

  84. Friendlysociopath March 21, 2015 at 9:24 pm -      #984

    They haven’t fought in Disney canon and Vader has straight neck snapped people and choked someone that was in orbit

    I always wondered, how did the EU compensate for the movies? They make the villains and heroes so badass and all I can think is “boy, why couldn’t the character do THAT in the movies”?

  85. Jake_Uzumaki March 21, 2015 at 10:16 pm -      #985

    @Nsl98
    he has, with an evil wookie sidekick but has done nothing so far.

    @Friendly
    Most of the time its easy to just blame plot or limitations of the special effects. Mostly the former in the prequels and two cg series. Lots and lots and lots of really bad plot instead of just letting badass people be badass. Though at least the Original Trilogy came first so it didn’t have anything to live up to new tv show has no excuse.

  86. Nsl98 March 21, 2015 at 10:31 pm -      #986

    Evil Wookies? Might have to pick up a few of these new comics…
    —-
    Is Rebels really as bad as I keep hearing? I watched the first couple and thought the Inquisitor dude was cool…

    Are the showings in it really pathetic? Maybe it’s just cuz it’s designed for children or something.

  87. Jake_Uzumaki March 21, 2015 at 11:04 pm -      #987

    @Nsl98
    “Is Rebels really as bad as I keep hearing? I watched the first couple and thought the Inquisitor dude was cool…”

    Haven’t really been following it but the same PIS that plagued the movies was all over the stuff I saw.
    —–
    “Are the showings in it really pathetic? Maybe it’s just cuz it’s designed for children or something.”

    good luck convincing people of that last part.

  88. Friendlysociopath March 21, 2015 at 11:07 pm -      #988

    Why would Star Wars be for children lol, is Indiana Jones for kids too? (Okay maybe Crystal Skull)

    Is this the same show where Gungans take out Grievous?

  89. Jake_Uzumaki March 21, 2015 at 11:44 pm -      #989

    @Friendly
    no this is the one where a new character whose a kid is part of the main cast, happens to be a jedi, and until he actually becomes useful uses a laser slingshot.
    totally not a kid appeal show….

  90. Limbo Lowk March 22, 2015 at 12:00 am -      #990

    “Is Rebels really as bad as I keep hearing?”

    Meh, I think they focus to much on the kid and he’s not particularly engaging. Kanan in the book is pretty good but they don’t really do much in showing the character in the series.

    He sort of like if han solo had some jedi in taught into him. Then stomped out by watching everything he knew blasted by the people that worked closest with the jedi.
    ===
    “good luck convincing people of that last part.”

    Yeah Rebels generally have their blasters on stun(metaphorically/literally). Meanwhile in Kanan’s introduction story(New Dawn) you have a villain that brutally pummels a guy to death near the beginning of the story.

  91. Neon Lord March 22, 2015 at 3:38 am -      #991

    Rebels seemed more kid-focused in the first few episodes, but they were also pretty clearly introduction and setup. The last couple of episodes were much better, and the whole season overall feels like a great platform on which to expand on in the next season.

  92. Nsl98 March 22, 2015 at 9:04 am -      #992

    Ah, ok. Might, check it out then.
    —–
    Watch, in Halo 5, Chief is gonna get some super buff that bumps him up a few tiers.

  93. LadyRamkin March 22, 2015 at 9:07 am -      #993

    You mean he will get a good bump on the head from the wand of anti-generic-ism?

  94. Nsl98 March 22, 2015 at 9:23 am -      #994

    Yeah. Then his old fights wouldn’t be so stompy against him if he can actually put up a fight.

  95. LadyRamkin March 22, 2015 at 9:28 am -      #995

    “Yeah. Then his old fights wouldn’t be so stompy against him if he can actually put up a fight.”

    I dunno, I mean, what could they really do to him to him any better? They would have to have a massive jump in UNSC tech, or maybe put him in a forerunner suit, but even then.

    MC has ONE good feat, and that is getting this site some traction in the early days.

    Everything else he does he manages because he is “lucky” which generally means that Bungie are poor writers. Which is nothing new.

  96. Nsl98 March 22, 2015 at 9:38 am -      #996

    I dunno, I mean, what could they really do to him to him any better? They would have to have a massive jump in UNSC tech, or maybe put him in a forerunner suit, but even then.
    —–
    The tech jump could work. How many years after Halo 4 is Guardians?

    —–

    MC has ONE good feat, and that is getting this site some traction in the early days.

    That’s a great feat.
    And he’s dodged bullets before, plus he’s decently strong…but I get your point.
    —–
    MC must have a really high luck stat to have survived that long…

  97. Jake_Uzumaki March 22, 2015 at 10:09 am -      #997

    “Then his old fights wouldn’t be so stompy”

    I don’t think that would help against Superman, Thor, Hulk, Q, Doctor Manhattan, Martian Manhunter, Flash, War Machine, Iron Man, Bugs Bunny, Laharl, Green Lantern, Santa Claus, Ichigo, Apocalypse, Darth Nihilus, Juggernaut, Sailor Moon and the Sailor Senshi, Hancock, Dark Phoenix, Magneto, Spawn, The Thing, Lobo, this match factpile.com/1105-last-man-standing-round-1/

    Most of the stomps against him aren’t due to him having crap tech, so much as him being a squishy human against godlike characters and gods

  98. Nsl98 March 22, 2015 at 10:59 am -      #998

    @Jake

    I meant the street levelers that stomped/beat him.

    Like Captain America, Robocop, Link, Kratos, Etc.


    The ones you mentioned…wouldn’t get changed even if he got a massive tech boost.


    And he was put up against Meme-Norris? Ouch…

  99. Jake_Uzumaki March 22, 2015 at 2:28 pm -      #999

    Cap Kratos Robocop Link and them were fairly close if I remember right, the only “street leveler” that stomped him would be Spider-Man, 3 times.

  100. erickyboo March 22, 2015 at 3:34 pm -      #1000

    There is one showing where Ezra holds fruit and the storm trooper shoots. The fruit protect Ezra against the blaster.

    Blaster rifles!

    Post 1000!

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