Cosmere Vs Legendarium

Cosmere Vs Legendarium

Brought to you by Kaladin Stormblessed

Here we have Brandon Sanderson’s Cosmere (Mistborn, The Stormlight Archive, etc) versus Tolkien’s Legendarium (Lord of the Rings). No direct interference from gods (In other words, no Shards, no Illuvatar, and no Valar).

Splinters and Maiar are OK. Merged timeline/composite (In other words, even though Saruman died, he can still participate, as can his army even though it was destroyed).

Characters and armies can only be used if they appear in the main timeline of a book (not flashbacks).

Each planet has a portal connecting it to the other Shardworlds and Arda.

Which side prevails?

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83 Comments on "Cosmere Vs Legendarium"

  1. Rookie September 18, 2014 at 6:46 am -      #1

    Ok, I want to go with Legendarium, but I know zero about team 1. Can somebody post their feats?

  2. Rookie September 18, 2014 at 11:53 am -      #2

    What’s wrong? Why is here so empty? Guys, this is not one of my threads, this is actually something good.

  3. Commander Cross September 18, 2014 at 12:10 pm -      #3

    All of Middle-Earth, eh?

    I wonder whether or not The Black Book of Arda is allowed or not, though even without it this fight will be interesting.

    We know about the residents of Mistborn, right?

    Also, is The World of Alcatraz Smedry included?

  4. KalaDellexe September 18, 2014 at 12:36 pm -      #4

    Thank you Admin!

    Guys, I have one thing to say…
    The Lord Ruler solos!

    (I’m kidding)

    Alcatraz is non-Cosmere, it takes place on Earth.

    I don’t think the Black Book of Arda is allowed, since it’s written by fans (right?).

    ALRIGHT! Let’s get down to business.

    I’ll start with Scadriel, because that’s the best known world of the Cosmere (so far):
    -Armies (I’m still doing a reread, might be more):
    -About 400,000 Koloss
    -About 100,000 in human armies

    Not too impressive at first compared with the millions of orcs that I’ve seen on other threads, but Koloss are bigger than orcs. They are Hemalurgic constructs, created by combining the strength of several men into one body. This causes them to grow in size significantly. Most Koloss are about 8 feet tall, but the older Koloss are 12-13 feet tall, and have the strength to match. More Koloss can be created fairly easily from the fallen or by creating new Spikes.

    -Special troops:
    -About 20 Steel Inquisitors. I’ll go more in depth in another post.
    -Unknown number of Mistborn. (And Allomancers in general, though 15% of the population as of Hero of Ages were Allomancers).
    -Kandra, spies. Think jello blobs that can form muscles and organs at will. Give them a body and they’ll form a perfect imitation of that body.
    -The Lord Ruler – Yeah. I’ll explain later why this guy is awesome.
    -Huh, I forgot about Alloy of Law when I made this match. I guess they also have firearms. It’s about 1910-ish, technology wise. So revolvers, rifles, and mounted machine guns (though they’re kinda rubbish).
    -The Terris Feruchemists.

    -Special Tactics:
    -Hemalurgy! The best of the Metallic Arts! Basically, you viciously stab someone through the heart with a spike, then you pull it out and stab someone else! It’s messy, but effective. You can use it to create stronger troops, or transfer one character’s magic powers into someone else.


    I’ll go more in depth on this stuff later when I have time, happy debating!

    (P.S. Admin, why is this in Duels? Shouldn’t it be in Universe?)

  5. Friendlysociopath September 18, 2014 at 12:44 pm -      #5

    Er, isn’t the problem with LoTR that their highest level beings have almost no feats to back them up?

  6. Malenfant September 18, 2014 at 2:51 pm -      #6

    @KalaDellexe

    “I’ll start with Scadriel, because that’s the best known world of the Cosmere (so far):
    -Armies (I’m still doing a reread, might be more):
    -About 400,000 Koloss
    -About 100,000 in human armies
    *snip*
    -Special troops:
    -About 20 Steel Inquisitors. I’ll go more in depth in another post.
    -Unknown number of Mistborn. (And Allomancers in general, though 15% of the population as of Hero of Ages were Allomancers).
    -Kandra, spies. Think jello blobs that can form muscles and organs at will. Give them a body and they’ll form a perfect imitation of that body.
    -The Lord Ruler – Yeah. I’ll explain later why this guy is awesome.
    -Huh, I forgot about Alloy of Law when I made this match. I guess they also have firearms. It’s about 1910-ish, technology wise. So revolvers, rifles, and mounted machine guns (though they’re kinda rubbish).
    -The Terris Feruchemists.”

    Ancalagon sits on them.

  7. Ragnorke September 18, 2014 at 3:25 pm -      #7

    So no Morgoth & his mates? That’s basically taking away all of Middle Earths heavy hitters…
    Morgoth had an army of Balrogs (which was lead by Dragons), all of whom should be allowed here i suppose, i’ll try and find numbers on em.

    Edit: It says only characters from “main-timelines” are allowed… By main timeline, do you mean the Lotr timeline? Because there’s alot more to middle-earth than that one event.

  8. Numinous One September 18, 2014 at 4:27 pm -      #8

    Composite timeline Legendarium?
    Alright, basically then we have at least country spanning armies, at least hundreds of mature dragons with scales that are supposedly harder than steel, so bulletproof.
    All the High Elves in Valinor, all the dead elves than can be reborn by opening the doors of Mandos.
    All of which spend their spare time prepping for the apocalypse when Melkor breaks free at full power.

    Balrogs maxed out at 1000 I believe, or 7 which doesn’t tie in with the events described too well.

  9. KalaDellexe September 18, 2014 at 4:46 pm -      #9

    “Er, isn’t the problem with LoTR that their highest level beings have almost no feats to back them up?”

    That’s why I specified no super-high-level beings. It’s the Legendarium’s biggest weakness and the Cosmere’s biggest asset. I figured removing both would help balance, and also reduce the likelihood that this boils down to “My omni is better than your omni!” that a lot of Universe matches boil down to.

    I’m also pretty sure some Maiar have city-busting feats, I don’t know where to find them, though.
    Plus. Dragons. I’m pretty sure Ancalagon is around for the Legendarium’s use.


    “Edit: It says only characters from “main-timelines” are allowed… By main timeline, do you mean the Lotr timeline? Because there’s alot more to middle-earth than that one event.”

    I mean what happens in the books included in the Legendarium. So LOTR, the Hobbit, the Silmarilion (however its spelled…). Not just limited to LOTR.

    “So no Morgoth & his mates? That’s basically taking away all of Middle Earths heavy hitters…”

    They still have the Maiar, which are apparently city-busters and have durability to match. I took away the Cosmere’s heaviest hitters too.


    “Ancalagon sits on them.”

    I shall strive to find a counter to Mr. Ancalagon.


    SO! Since I’m working on Scadriel at the moment, let’s do what we always do and explain Allomantic and Feruchemical abilities.

    Here you go. Allomantic effects.
    Iron – Pulls on Metals
    Steel – Pushes on Metals
    Tin – Enhances Senses
    Pewter – Enhances physical capabilities
    Chromium – Drains outside magic
    Nicrosil – Enhances outside magic
    Aluminum – Drains inner magic
    Duralumin – Enhances inner magic
    Zinc – Increase other’s emotions
    Brass – Soothe other’s emotions
    Copper – Protects from magical detection in an area
    Bronze – Magic detection
    Cadmium – Create a bubble of slower time
    Bendalloy – Create a bubble of faster time
    Gold – Allows the user to see their past
    Electrum – Allows the user to see their future, makes them immune to certain precog abilities
    Atium – Combat precog
    Lerasium – Links user to Preservation

    Feruchemical Effects:
    Iron – stores weight (mass)
    Steel – stores physical speed
    Tin – stores senses
    Pewter – Stores physical strength
    Chromium – Stores luck
    Nicrosil – Stores Investiture
    Aluminun – Stores identity
    Duralumin – Stores connection to others
    Zinc – Stores mental speed
    Brass – Stores warmth
    Copper – Stores knowledge
    Bronze – Stores wakefulness
    Cadmium – Stores breath (not Breath, breath)
    Bendalloy – Stores energy (calories)
    Gold – Stores health
    Electrum – Stores determination
    Lerasium – Stores ???
    Atium – Stores youth


    WELL NOW THAT’S OVER. Any questions?

    Time to explain why the Lord Ruler is awesome. What he is has no name in the lore because it’s so rare. Fans have taken to calling him Fullborn. He is a Mistborn, able to use all the Allomantic metals, and is also a Feruchemist, able to use all the Feruchemical metals. It is because of this mix that he is so powerful. He can use Allomancy to store an effectively infinite supply of each Feruchemical attribute. He can heal from nearly any wound, move faster than the wind, and throw a man back over a hundred feet with a casual backhand. He never has to eat or sleep. He doesn’t even have to breathe. Because of his Compounded Identity, he has an aura similar to the God Emperor of 40K (“This is a god in human form, he deserves to be served, worshipped, etc.” is how people react to him) His Allomancy is strong enough that he can Push on the metals inside of someone’s blood, and dominate the emotions of tens of thousands around him. In the books he wasn’t worried about hundreds of thousands rebelling against him, he could kill them all one by one if he so wished.

    Yeah. TLR is pretty epic.

    And the best part? Using Hemalurgy, the magic of stealing magic, it’s possible to create, minimum, about FIVE of these guys. A more likely number is over 20. Now we give them Shardblades…

    But by themselves, a Mistborn or Feruchemist are still pretty deadly. There are also a fair number of Twinborn, people born with one Allomantic power and one Feruchemical power.
    There are also simple Mistings and Ferrings, people born with only one Allomantic power or one Feruchemical power.


    “Alright, basically then we have at least country spanning armies, at least hundreds of mature dragons with scales that are supposedly harder than steel, so bulletproof.
    All the High Elves in Valinor, all the dead elves than can be reborn by opening the doors of Mandos.
    All of which spend their spare time prepping for the apocalypse when Melkor breaks free at full power.”

    If they’re around in the timeline of a book (not flashbacks or histories), then they’re fair game.


    More stuff coming later. I’m going to focus on Scadriel for now, and address the rest of the Cosmere later.

  10. Epicazeroth September 18, 2014 at 4:50 pm -      #10

    HOLY SHIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This is the best match ever!!!

    But seriously, this is amazing. Normally I would say I’m torn because these are in my top three favorite works of all time. But it’s not really a contest.

    The Cosmere has more powerful magic, I’m pretty sure. It also has more powerful champions (as in more champions who are powerful). But. The Legendarium’s First Age cannon fodder is much closer to Mistborns/Feruchemists/Shardbearers/Elantrians/etc than Cosmere cannon fodder is to First Age Elves. And Maiar are without a doubt more powerful than basically everything on the Cosmere side, unless Hoid somehow learns every Magic system. Plus, there’s the armies that literally fill countries, and are absolutely destroyed by smaller armies that break continents.
    ===
    @Ragnorke: “Main timeline” I’m pretty sure is aimed at the Cosmere. It means no Voidbringer armies, no Heralds, no guns, etc. It has to be in the actual book. So probably it also discounts the theoretical billions of Ainur who may or may not exist as of Ainulindalë.
    ===
    @Numinous: There are 7 Balrogs. The thing about the Silmarillion is that it was made of Tolkien’s notes and edited by Christopher Tolkien. But in J.R.R.’s later Letters, he says there are 7. It’s an inconsistency, but whatever. Though, there is a relatively large minority of people who think LotR trumps everything and everything Tolkien decided after LotR is inferior writing or something.
    ===
    @Kala: OK. I’ll help you provide feats.

    Shardbearers are probably around comic peak human, and their Blades can kill almost anything instantly. They would have one big advantage: their Shardplate would defend against any LotR magic; more powerful Elves or Maiar could likely break through.

    I’ll let you get Mistborn feats cause I don’t have the books.

    But. Each Maiar ranges from Shardbearer/Mistborn level to like half a Shard of Adonalsium. And the Elves have pretty insane feats too. 10,000 of them cut through an army of at least 100k.
    ===
    I’ll get out the Sil later for specifics. But the Legendarium wins based on their First Age canon fodder each being basically a Shardbearer. The Cosmere would give a good fight, but the War of Wrath kills them. If the Maiar are banned, it would be a lot fairer. Because, you know, continent shattering. In a short, lopsided battle they were completely stomping.

  11. KalaDellexe September 18, 2014 at 4:59 pm -      #11

    “It means no Voidbringer armies, no Heralds, no guns, etc. It has to be in the actual book.”

    It’s aimed at the Legendarium too. And guns are in, they’re in Alloy of Law. And the Heralds are still around.

    But yeah, no fully formed Knights Radiant orders (THAT’D BE OP), no armies of Unmade and no armies of the ancient Voidbringers.

    Are the Maiar continent-breakers? I thought the Valar did that and the Maiar were only city-busters?

    Cosmere also has the Everstorm/Highstorm combination… The Shattered Plains were shattered for a very good reason…

  12. Epicazeroth September 18, 2014 at 5:10 pm -      #12

    @Numinous: Oh, just read the OP again. So, your post is mostly right. However

    “Alright, basically then we have at least country spanning armies, at least hundreds of mature dragons with scales that are supposedly harder than steel, so bulletproof.”
    This is fair game. It’s specifically in the War of Wrath.
    “All the High Elves in Valinor, all the dead elves than can be reborn by opening the doors of Mandos.”
    Err… More debatable, but I would think it’s allowed. It’s mentioned specifically a lot of times, but the people themselves are never mentioned. That would be up to Kala.
    “All of which spend their spare time prepping for the apocalypse when Melkor breaks free at full power.”
    This is basically only a little better than Fanon. I’m pretty sure the source of this is like a paragraph of notes Tolkien wrote that are in HoME. It’s not in any books with stories. But even without it, it’s unquantifiable. The Dagor Dagorath info is basically “Morgoth will break free; Turin will kill him; the world will die and be reborn.”
    ===
    @Kala: “They still have the Maiar, which are apparently city-busters and have durability to match. I took away the Cosmere’s heaviest hitters too.”
    Well, the army of them sank a continent. But seriously, you should take them away. Sauron alone could probably solo. He tanked at least an island-busting – said island being about the size of France. This event also broke dimensions and created and destroyed continents, so… yeah.

    Numenorean bows have far greater range than anything on Scadrial. Besides, Scadrial and Nalthis are stated (by WoB) to be weaker in terms of Investiture used than Sel or Roshar. Though, Nightblood and Feruchemists/Mistborn are likely exceptions.

    Speaking of which
    SPOILER WARNING
    .
    .
    .
    .
    Vasher is on Roshar!!!!
    .
    .
    .
    .
    SPOILER END

  13. Epicazeroth September 18, 2014 at 5:17 pm -      #13

    @Kala: “It’s aimed at the Legendarium too. And guns are in, they’re in Alloy of Law. And the Heralds are still around.”
    Ah, OK. I just meant that there are far fewer flashbacks in the Legendarium.

    And I forgot about Mistborn Adventures somehow. Aren’t only a few Heralds around?

    I actually don’t like that like half of them are somehow still there. It makes the series seem less like a turning point if half of the books are written from the PoV of the Heralds. And I don’t like that only some Heralds are there; if you’re gonna have Heralds, there should be one who’s special, or all of them. It’s incomplete otherwise. But, anyway /rant.

    “Are the Maiar continent-breakers? I thought the Valar did that and the Maiar were only city-busters?”
    Each Vala is an arguable continent-buster. The Maiar as a whole destroyed (as in, it completely sank) Beleriand. Actually, the Elves helped but still. Actually, where is the city-busting for a Maiar? I don’t recall that at all.

    “The Shattered Plains were shattered for a very good reason…”
    The Shattered Plains don’t even have dimensions. We don’t know how big they are; we don’t know how big Roshar is. We don’t even know what unit they use, so there’s no way to scale from the map of Alethkar in WoK.

  14. KalaDellexe September 18, 2014 at 9:36 pm -      #14

    ” It makes the series seem less like a turning point if half of the books are written from the PoV of the Heralds.”

    I think only one book is focused on a Herald’s backstory. I think it’ll focus on Shalash.

    ” Aren’t only a few Heralds around?”
    Well, we’re assuming they’re still around. They’re immortal and pretty hard to kill. One of the characters in the prologue of WoK (or maybe WoR, I don’t know) is suspected to be a Herald.

    “All the High Elves in Valinor, all the dead elves than can be reborn by opening the doors of Mandos.”

    I thought this wasn’t actually canonized? It’s not in the published Silmarillion, and is also only a prophecy.

    “Well, the army of them sank a continent. But seriously, you should take them away. Sauron alone could probably solo. He tanked at least an island-busting – said island being about the size of France. This event also broke dimensions and created and destroyed continents, so… yeah.”

    Huh. I thought it was a Vala that did that. WELP. Hmm. The only reason I have the Everstorm/Highstorm combo currently allowed is because its destruction is extremely localized and takes awhile to start. If the Maiar are really that OP and more people advise me to do that, to balance the match (the Cosmere has NOTHING of that scale in it below Shards as of this point, and Shards are way too OP to have in this match. Seriously. A single Shard can toss planets around by accident and remake an ecosystem from the ground up in minutes. There are SIXTEEN of these things.) we may cross out Maiar, or at least ban them from using continent-buster level abilities. City-buster is OK. Much beyond that, not so much.

    I wonder if a Shardblade could kill a Maiar… Probably.

    “The Shattered Plains don’t even have dimensions. We don’t know how big they are; we don’t know how big Roshar is. We don’t even know what unit they use, so there’s no way to scale from the map of Alethkar in WoK.”

    True. I shall try to find some unit of measurement. The destruction caused by the Highstorm/Everstorm combo was fairly localized, though. It didn’t expand very far. It was VERY DESTRUCTIVE THOUGH.

  15. Soulerous September 18, 2014 at 10:24 pm -      #15

    I sure hope Ancalagon isn’t considered a major player. He’s a very minor player, as we don’t know his actual size. Refer here, to post #22 and onward into the next page for why that is.

  16. Numinous One September 18, 2014 at 11:02 pm -      #16

    “It’s not in any books with stories. But even without it, it’s unquantifiable. The Dagor Dagorath info is basically “Morgoth will break free; Turin will kill him; the world will die and be reborn.””

    Fairly sure it’s mentioned at the end of Sil, something along the lines of staying vigilant for the day the doors break I think. It’s in the appendixes of the one of the books I have at any rate, HoME is the only one I don’t have.
    Also I’m not fond of Chris’s change regarding Turin killing him, originally it was just supposed to be Tulkas brawling, with Eonwe killing him. Turin is just a way for mankind to recieve redemption.
    And they lived happily ever after.

    But still, I really wish we got even a glimpse of it, a War of Wrath with absolutely everything in it, with Melkor at his peak duking it out, it’s no wonder the world breaks.

    “I thought this wasn’t actually canonized? It’s not in the published Silmarillion, and is also only a prophecy”

    He returned Beren to life, showing there is nothing stopping him from doing it normally except his CIS, which gets discarded when the world is at stake, ie Dagor Dagorath.
    As for the prophecies, those are ordained to Mandos by Eru, they’ve always come true so far and are expected to keep doing so.

    “I sure hope Ancalagon isn’t considered a major player”

    At this point he’s just a massive, swooping incineration machine. That bites.

  17. KalaDellexe September 19, 2014 at 2:13 am -      #17

    “Fairly sure it’s mentioned at the end of Sil, something along the lines of staying vigilant for the day the doors break I think. It’s in the appendixes of the one of the books I have at any rate, HoME is the only one I don’t have.”

    Well, there is this: “It is important to note that the final, published version of the Silmarillion contains no references to this prophecy. ”
    It’s from the wiki page on Dagor Dagorath/the Second Prophecy, so take it as you will. Dagor Dagorath is mentioned, but never the prophecy. As far as I know the Silmarillion actually says that “the fate of the elves is unknown” or something along those lines with regards to Dagor Dagorath.


    “At this point he’s just a massive, swooping incineration machine. That bites.”

    And can be killed by the second* most OP weapon to ever be created in fantasy, the Shardblade.

    Seriously. They’re OP. And there’s around a hundred of them that are known as of the book’s main timeline. According to a flashback multiple hundreds of them were around at one point, though their current whereabouts are unknown.


    Time to lose many hours to an epic Cosmere reread… I’m going to need more chouta…


    * If anyone is wondering, the most OP weapon is Balefire.

  18. Numinous One September 19, 2014 at 3:50 am -      #18

    “It’s from the wiki page on Dagor Dagorath/the Second Prophecy, so take it as you will. Dagor Dagorath is mentioned, but never the prophecy. As far as I know the Silmarillion actually says that “the fate of the elves is unknown” or something along those lines with regards to Dagor Dagorath.”

    I’d just like to point out that Chris’s editorial decisions don’t overrule John’s scripts.

    Prophecy in question, just for anyone who might be curious.
    Thus spoke Mandos in prophecy, when the Valar sat in judgement in Valinor and the rumour of his word was whispered among all the Elves of the West. When the world is old and the Powers grow weary, then Morgoth, seeing that the guard sleepeth, shall come back through the Door of the Night out of the Timeless Void; and he shall destroy the Sun and the Moon. But Eärendil shall descend upon him as a white and searing flame and drive him from the airs. Then shall the Last Battle be gathered on the fields of Valinor. In that day, Tulkas shall strive with Morgoth, and on his right hand shall be Eönwë, and on his left Túrin Turambar, son of Húrin, coming from the halls of Mandos; and the black sword of Túrin shall deal unto Morgoth his death and final end; and so shall the Children of Húrin and all Men be avenged.
    Thereafter shall Earth be broken and remade, and the Silmarils shall be recovered out of Air and Earth and Sea; for Eärendil shall descend and surrender that flame which he hath had in keeping. Then Fëanor shall take the Three Jewels and bear them to Yavanna Palúrien; and she will break them and with their fire rekindle the Two Trees, and a great light shall come forth. And the mountains of Valinor shall be levelled, so that the light shall go out over all the world. In that light the Valar will grow young again, and the Elves awake and all their dead arise, and the purpose of Ilúvatar be fulfilled concerning them. But of Men in that day the prophecy of Mandos doth not speak, and no Man it names, save Túrin only, and to him a place is given among the sons of the Valar
    .”

    Anyway the whole point i’m trying to make, is the dead can be resurrected in the Legendarium, it’s only been done with a specific purpose in mind so far though.

    “And can be killed by the second* most OP weapon to ever be created in fantasy, the Shardblade.”

    More info? I haven’t read too much on Sanderson’s other books.
    The wiki says it is required to pass through the core of the limb to kill that limb, cover art showed them to look like claymores in size, which wouldn’t have enough reach. I doubt even changing it to a halberd would provide enough reach.

    Hitting a dragons spine would be problematic as you know, they fly, and pretty much rain down death. Getting ontop of one would be rediculously hard.
    Maybe throw a spear and hope for the best.

  19. KalaDellexe September 19, 2014 at 5:01 am -      #19

    “More info?”

    Basically, a Shardblade will slice through inanimate objects like a hot knife through melting butter, but that’s not why they’re so OP.
    Upon contact with a living creature the Shardblade “blurs” and loses its solid form. It destroys the attributes and connections of whatever life form it passes through. If it cuts a limb, it destroys the connection to that limb. If it cuts through the spine or head it instantly kills the creature or person because it destroys their Spirit-Web. Nothing living has shown to resist it, though with a lot of effort and a lot of magic, simple wounds can be healed. And Hoid isn’t scared by a Shardblade for some reason… We have no clue why he doesn’t think they can hurt him.

    Essentially, it can slice through pretty much any non-living armor (you need some pretty heavily enchanted magic armor to resist being hit by a Shardblade for even a few hits) and does not actually cut any living armor, but simply passes through it, rendering it ineffective. And you can’t heal a fatal blow by yourself, and you have to be healed within seconds of getting killed by a Shardblade in order for the fragments of your Spirit-Web (basically soul, but that’s an over-simplification) to have any chance of being repaired.

    And they can be thrown pretty well.

  20. Ragnorke September 19, 2014 at 3:56 pm -      #20

    “* If anyone is wondering, the most OP weapon is Balefire.”

    Balefire is far from the most OP “weapon” in fiction… not that it’s a weapon to begin with…

    “Upon contact with a living creature the Shardblade “blurs” and loses its solid form. It destroys the attributes and connections of whatever life form it passes through. If it cuts a limb, it destroys the connection to that limb. If it cuts through the spine or head it instantly kills the creature or person because it destroys their Spirit-Web.”

    What’s a spirit web?

  21. KalaDellexe September 19, 2014 at 4:40 pm -      #21

    “Balefire is far from the most OP “weapon” in fiction… not that it’s a weapon to begin with…”

    Eh, just how hax it is. Compared to the big guns of fantasy it doesn’t hold up, but it is pretty hax.


    “What’s a spirit web?”

    Simplest explanation: Soul

    However, that is very oversimplified. The Spiritweb is essentially the union of spiritual connections that form a person, rock, tree, or anything else. Everything has one, because everything has a connection to itself and something else.

    Your Spiritweb carries with it a kind of “Spiritual DNA.” This Spiritual DNA contains things like where you were born, what magic systems you are affiliated with and what magic systems you can access. An Allomancer has a conduit forged in their Spirit Web that allows them to channel Allomancy. A Surgebinder has a crack in their Spirit Web allowing them to bond a Spren and gain Surges.

    Shardblades destroy these connections when they pass through a living being.

    Effectively, you are no longer “connected” to your arm once it is “cut” by a Shardblade.

    The same goes for magic abilities. Any abilities you might have are lost if the specific Spirit Web strand is cut, though it is possible to regain them through magic healing/cognitive healing.

    If it passes through a cluster of Spiritweb strands, or through an especially vital one (the ones that pass through the head, spine, etc.) then the cut being immediately dies.

  22. Malenfant September 19, 2014 at 5:33 pm -      #22

    @Soulerous

    “I sure hope Ancalagon isn’t considered a major player. He’s a very minor player, as we don’t know his actual size. Refer here, to post #22 and onward into the next page for why that is.”

    You’re getting your knickers in a twist over a word or two in a single not piece of text that was written very well. The intended meaning is admittedly somewhat ambiguous, but ‘in his ruin’ actually suggests that they were destroyed by his own death, ie falling upon them. As for the other two statements, remember, there are multiple (three IIRC) peaks of Thangorodrim. I’ve even people like Karen Wynn Fonstad account for the central tower alone when discussing it.

    Regardless, I’m in no mood to argue semantics, so I’m just going to point out this text here:

    “Thus, an end was made of the power of Angband in the North, and the evil realm was brought to naught; and out of hope into the light of day, and they looked upon a world that was changed. For so great was the fury of those adversaries that the northern regions of the western world were rent asunder, and the sea roared in through many chasms, and there was confusion and great noise; and rivers perished or found new pathsm and the valleys were upheaved and the hills trod down; and Sirion (the river) was no more.“~The Silmarillion, Chapter 24

    This is a result of the clash between the Valar host/Morgoth, ruining a small continent. Ancalagon took part in it, and undoubtedly caused a degree of damage, probably a large one. Plus his breath was holding back the Valar host. Also I vaguely remember a quote that said he blocked out the entire sky, but don’t quote me on that. Anyways, say that his size is un-quantifiable, but it’s obviously nonsense that he can’t crush a few petty armies (assuming said armies have no ulterior way of surviving).

    @KalaDellexe

    “* If anyone is wondering, the most OP weapon is Balefire.”

    “And can be killed by the second* most OP weapon to ever be created in fantasy, the Shardblade.”

    Mind explaining what exactly these things are?

  23. Friendlysociopath September 19, 2014 at 5:43 pm -      #23

    “* If anyone is wondering, the most OP weapon is Balefire.”

    “And can be killed by the second* most OP weapon to ever be created in fantasy, the Shardblade.”

    Mind explaining what exactly these things are?

    Balefire is a spell that erases you back in time and subsequently kills you, it also penetrates just about every defense and can be in whatever form you wish. Not relevant here, he just brought it up.

    He said what the Shardblade was like 5 comments ago, read up man.
    Edit: Post #19

  24. Malenfant September 19, 2014 at 5:51 pm -      #24

    “Balefire is a spell that erases you back in time and subsequently kills you, it also penetrates just about every defense and can be in whatever form you wish. Not relevant here, he just brought it up.”

    Sounds kind of like Gae Bolg (Nasuverse) except you can dodge it, and it has a wider effect on your timeline. Penetrating every defense sounds hyperbolic, though, and it’s definitely not that hax, even by the standards of fantasy (nevermind fiction)

    “He said what the Shardblade was like 5 comments ago, read up man.
    Edit: Post #19″

    I see. Has it targeted anything remotely as big as Ancalagon, though? It would probably take a couple minutes to simply travel through his scale, and that’s low balling his size.

  25. Epicazeroth September 19, 2014 at 5:51 pm -      #25

    @Kala: “I think only one book is focused on a Herald’s backstory. I think it’ll focus on Shalash.”
    It’s Taln and another one. But like six books are focused on Kholins.

    “I thought this wasn’t actually canonized?”
    The Dagor Dagorath is debateable. But it’s definitely canon that Elves go to the Halls of Mandos and can get let out again. They get punished by Mandos holding them longer, so he can release them at any time.

    “I wonder if a Shardblade could kill a Maiar…”
    Eventually. But their Innate Investiture would be insane. Remember Nightblood is “orders of magnitude more magical” than a Shardblade. A Maiar would be able to tank several blows I’d say. Plus a lot of them can shapeshifter or go incorporeal.

    “Seriously. They’re OP.”
    But they can be blocked by something being magical. Guess what Maiar and First Age Elves are?

    “Nothing living has shown to resist it… And Hoid isn’t scared by a Shardblade for some reason… We have no clue why he doesn’t think they can hurt him.”
    1) They can be resisted if the thing is magic. Like Tolkien Elves.
    2) Hoid is probably so Invested by now he can tank Shardblade hits.
    ===
    @Soul: “He’s a very minor player, as we don’t know his actual size.”
    So that’s like two threads against the entirety of the rest of the fandom. Plus, IIRC your logic there was that we can’t take past decisions as proof. So we’d have to argue it again here if we go down that road. But personally I don’t care because he wouldn’t make that much of a difference aside from being able to say “Ancalagon sits on them.”
    ===
    @Mal: “Mind explaining what exactly these things are?”
    Balefire: From WoT. It erases you retroactively.
    Shardblade: He explained it above.

  26. Ragnorke September 19, 2014 at 6:20 pm -      #26

    Ok, i’m starting to like this debate…

    @Kala
    “Simplest explanation: Soul”

    So do undead beings have it? or how about none physical aspects? or beings of energy?
    What’s the strongest being a shardblade has shown to cut?
    Is there ANY defense against it? regardless of how minor?

    @Malenfant
    “Mind explaining what exactly these things are?”

    Balefire is a spell cast by Channelers in the Wheel of Time series (irrelevant in this thread).
    It has 4 important properties:
    1. It erases the threads it hits from existence. (Threads mean 2 things, the atoms that make physical matter, & also the soul that makes living things)
    2. It “burns” the thread back to a certain point, meaning the character hit ceased to exist IN THE PAST. Meaning everything the character recently did, becomes undone.
    Therefor Balefire can be used as a method of bringing someone back to life, assuming you hit the person that committed the murder.
    3. Since it erases threads back in time, it makes most defences irrelevant, considering it effects the target back before the defences were cast/equipped.
    It has also been stated by an omnipotent source (the author) that Balefire would even kill the Dark One himself (who is multiversal being capable of casual universe busting)
    4. Its size & speed can essentially be whatever the caster “wants” or needs it to be… However that’s obviously a NLF.
    The best feats are of it being cast is in a few milliseconds, and it is said to move the length of a football field in the blink of an eye.

    That’s my understanding of it after hundreds & hundreds of posts of debating.
    It is most certainly hax as fuck, but not the MOST OP thing in fiction.

  27. KalaDellexe September 19, 2014 at 7:37 pm -      #27

    “So do undead beings have it? or how about none physical aspects? or beings of energy?
    What’s the strongest being a shardblade has shown to cut?
    Is there ANY defense against it? regardless of how minor?”

    Regarding Spiritwebs, everything has one shown so far. Even zombies/undead creatures have Spiritwebs. Incorporeal creatures also have Spiritwebs.

    As for the largest being they’ve been shown to cut:
    A)
    They go incorporeal whenever they encounter living matter, so size doesn’t really seem to matter all that much.
    B)
    img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20140709024223/stormlightarchive/images/6/62/Sketchbook_chasmfiend.jpg
    A single Shardblade stab killed one of these in exactly the same way it would kill a man. Look at the bottom for a representation of how big they are.


    Defence: Highly Invested (Enchanted/magical) armour or shields. Or another non-living entity that’s heavily invested. Like a Shardblade or Nightblood.

    So far, we’ve seen no example of having tons of Investiture making you more resistant to a Shardblade. In one fight scene a guy who is full to bursting with raw Investiture gets cut by a Shardblade with no resistance.


    ” But it’s definitely canon that Elves go to the Halls of Mandos and can get let out again. They get punished by Mandos holding them longer, so he can release them at any time.”

    So they need to be let out by a Valar? They can’t get out on their own?


    Any with regards to Epic’s arguments about holding Investiture making you more resistant, I addressed it above. So far, holding Investiture has not made someone noticeably more resilient to a Shardblade.

    It’s could be that Hoid just didn’t think the Shardbearer would stab him, or that his unique combination of abilities would make it very hard to actually land a hit on him.

  28. Epicazeroth September 19, 2014 at 8:52 pm -      #28

    @Ragnorke: I’m loving this debate. It definitely has potential to be great, but even more so if it really picks up in post count.

    “So do undead beings have it? or how about none physical aspects? or beings of energy?
    What’s the strongest being a shardblade has shown to cut?
    Is there ANY defense against it? regardless of how minor?”
    1) It’s separate from the physical aspect. A being that has no Physical presence, assuming EC would be either completely Cognitive (represents or embodies a concept) or Spiritual (is a concept itself).
    2) Beings of energy would still exist in the Physical Realm, so they could be affected theoretically. We know that in Elantris a Spiritual event affected the Seons, which are pure energy. As long as the being both exists and is composed of matter or energy, it can be affected. To what degree is what varies.
    3) The strongest is a normal human. Well, technically, Kaladin I guess.
    4) There’s tons of defenses. The most viable is to block it using pure Investiture (magic), or a magical/enchanted item. You could also be magic yourself. Theoretically, you could leave the Physical Realm completely to escape it, but then you can’t fight back until you return.
    ===
    @Kala: “So they need to be let out by a Valar? They can’t get out on their own?”
    They exist. You didn’t say they need to be free to fight. They still exist while in Mandos; they just can’t leave because he would stop them.

    “So far, we’ve seen no example of having tons of Investiture making you more resistant to a Shardblade. In one fight scene a guy who is full to bursting with raw Investiture gets cut by a Shardblade with no resistance.”
    I should’ve worded my argument more clearly. I didn’t mean that holding Investiture made you resistant. I meant being Invested yourself would. Kaladin himself is only a bit more Invested than a normal human at the time of his fight; he just happens to be holding a lot of Stormlight. Innate Investiture represents your Spiritual presence, correct? And Shardblades have a very strong Spiritual presence, which is why they kill things so easily. However, if something had a high Innate Investiture – a strong Spiritual presence (such as a Returned or Elantrian) – they would be harder to affect because what you’re trying to affect is stronger. Nightblood is alive anyway, and it’s been stated that he’s immune to Shardblades or at least highly resistant.

    Actually, I found a quote: “Things with innate Investiture are much more difficult to affect by any of the magics at all.” So assuming Shardblades fall under “magic” – I should think they do, as they have Stormlight and are themselves basically pure Investiture – any highly magical being would be resistant.

  29. Epicazeroth September 19, 2014 at 9:41 pm -      #29

    @Kala: Also, another reason your argument is flawed (if not necessarily entirely invalid). Aside from the counters I posted above, there’s one detail in your argument itself.

    Szeth does not have a Shardblade. Living Shards are much stronger than dead ones – which is what the vast, vast majority of Shards are. And Honorblades are again far more powerful than living Shardblades. So anything Szeth does with a sword is basically invalid unless there’s a way to powerscale from Honorblades to dead Shardblades. Especially now that he has… the spoilery sword I won’t mention in case someone here wants to read the Stormlight Archives.

  30. Friendlysociopath September 19, 2014 at 10:04 pm -      #30

    So going off of what has been mentioned, shardblades can kill living things because they become incorporeal when they encounter living tissue, yes? But the person who is wielding the weapon does not become incorporeal? That limits exactly how much reach the weapon has based on the wielder.

    img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20140709024223/stormlightarchive/images/6/62/Sketchbook_chasmfiend.jpg
    That thing looks awesome btw

    Right, decently sized creature. However, isn’t Ancalagon supposed to be big enough to shatter mountains when he falls? What was the standing agreement on Ancalagon’s size? Because he seems like he’d be so big the sword wouldn’t even make it through his skin.

  31. Epicazeroth September 19, 2014 at 11:13 pm -      #31

    @Friendly: No. The incorporeality is a side effect of how they kill. They dimension-shift to the Spiritual Realm and kill the concept of what they hit. For example, if you get hit, it kills your soul; you don’t die, you as an entity ceases to exist.

    The general consensus is that Ancalagon is mountain range size. But Soul made a pretty good argument (granted, I don’t agree with it) that he’s not. But in my opinion – and I think that of others as well – his argument is based too much off of one possible meaning of one word. But you’d still have to get to him anyway and stab him in the head or heart. So, pretty difficult even if he’s “only” Smaug size.

  32. Soulerous September 19, 2014 at 11:27 pm -      #32

    @Epicazeroth- “So that’s like two threads against the entirety of the rest of the fandom.
    ~
    The quantities don’t matter, the truth does. It would be the same if most people thought Link was named Zelda. It simply isn’t the case.
    ~
    Plus, IIRC your logic there was that we can’t take past decisions as proof. So we’d have to argue it again here if we go down that road.
    ~
    You recall incorrectly. I’ve never said anything remotely similar to “we can’t take past decisions as proof,” and if I did then I was wrong. Proof is proof. It only matters if it’s flawed or not. That is what I said. We cannot take flawed decisions as proof.
    ~
    But Soul made a pretty good argument
    ~
    Aww, thank you.
    ~
    @Malenfant- “The intended meaning is admittedly somewhat ambiguous, but ‘in his ruin’ actually suggests that they were destroyed by his own death, ie falling upon them.
    ~
    It may very well not mean that at all; we don’t know. That’s what ambiguous means. Thank you for agreeing.
    ~
    As for the other two statements, remember, there are multiple (three IIRC) peaks of Thangorodrim.
    ~
    I am very aware of that. I don’t know why you mention it.
    ~
    Regardless, I’m in no mood to argue semantics, so I’m just going to point out this text here:
    ~
    I posted this already as well. It wasn’t a continent by the way, just part of one.
    ~
    Plus his breath was holding back the Valar host.
    ~
    I don’t recall. What’s the quote?
    ~
    You’re getting your knickers in a twist over a word or two in a single not piece of text that was written very well.
    ~
    Oh, I don’t know. Do you use that figure of speech to describe debating? It looks like a whole lot of people are doing that, then. Only I don’t wear knickers. The point is we don’t know Ancalagon’s size, and the one thing that people think shows him to be extremely huge does not explicitly demonstrate that at all.

  33. KalaDellexe September 20, 2014 at 12:00 am -      #33

    “I should’ve worded my argument more clearly. I didn’t mean that holding Investiture made you resistant. I meant being Invested yourself would. Kaladin himself is only a bit more Invested than a normal human at the time of his fight; he just happens to be holding a lot of Stormlight. Innate Investiture represents your Spiritual presence, correct? And Shardblades have a very strong Spiritual presence, which is why they kill things so easily. However, if something had a high Innate Investiture – a strong Spiritual presence (such as a Returned or Elantrian) – they would be harder to affect because what you’re trying to affect is stronger. Nightblood is alive anyway, and it’s been stated that he’s immune to Shardblades or at least highly resistant.”

    Nightblood is not biological, living being; he is sentient. While he might be sentient, he is “alive” in the same way that Shardblades are “alive.” I think this means a Shardblade would not turn incorporeal upon touching him, and that they would be repulsed by his stronger Investiture.

    And true, innate Investiture is separate from held Investiture like Stormlight or Breaths. The Investiture from those is still permeating the person’s being, though. if the law of Investiture resists Investiture has an effect on a Shardblade’s ability to kill, it obviously isn’t a lot. I suppose it comes down to whether if the Investiture in a person is innate or just held makes a difference.

    And also keep in mind that Shardblades/Honorblades were designed to be able to kill the Odiumspren, so they obviously have the ability to overcome things that are highly Invested.


    “They exist. You didn’t say they need to be free to fight. They still exist while in Mandos; they just can’t leave because he would stop them.”

    What I gathered from what I’ve read is that Mandos has to let them out; they can’t get out on their own. Is there anything that definitively says that they can get out on their own?


    “Because he seems like he’d be so big the sword wouldn’t even make it through his skin.”

    Shardblades can be thrown, and since Ancalagon is so big, his spine or head would be VERY big targets. A few characters in the Cosmere can also manipulate gravity to fly, and others can pseudo-fly with Allomancy. Delivering the Shardblade to the right spot would be difficult, but not nearly impossible.

    If nothing else, the Cosmere could just feed Nightblood as much Investiture as possible, then launch him into the middle of the Legendarium’s army…
    I would pay money to see that…

  34. Soulerous September 20, 2014 at 12:14 am -      #34

    Here’s a basic rundown on Ancalagon for those who want it. This is his only appearance:
    ~
    Before the rising of the sun Eärendil slew Ancalagon the Black, the mightiest of the dragon-host, and cast him from the sky; and he fell upon the towers of Thangorodrim, and they were broken in his ruin.” -The Silmarillion, page 124.
    ~
    Thus we know he died and fell on Thangorodrim, which is composed of three mountain peaks. Thangorodrim is known to be very large, so if Anclagon broke it by falling he would have to be ridiculously huge. However, the only thing that suggests he broke it is that one line: “they were broken in his ruin.”
    ~
    That line can easily mean the towers of Thangorodrim were broken during the time of his ruin or in the place of his ruin, in the same way I can say “he prospered in the nation’s ruin” or “people died in the nation’s ruin.” Essentially, the text is saying X happened in X place or time. It is not strictly saying X happened because of X.
    ~
    Why did it happen, then? What broke Thangorodrim? The answer is the Host of Valinor: “The First Age ended with the Great Battle, in which the Host of Valinor broke Thangorodrim and overthrew Morgoth.” -The Lord of the Rings trilogy, Appendix B.
    ~
    That’s written by J.R.R. Tolkien himself. The conclusion is that Ancalagon breaking Thangorodrim via the Host casting him down and the Host of Valinor breaking Thangorodrim by itself are both valid interpretations, but neither one of them is confirmed because it’s too ambiguous.

  35. wingedlion September 20, 2014 at 12:14 am -      #35

    “Sounds kind of like Gae Bolg (Nasuverse) except you can dodge it, and it has a wider effect on your timeline.”

    not really.
    gea bolg messes with causality and switches cause with effect, allowing the spear to already appear inside your heart. it doesn’t mess with time like bealfire does. you might be thinking of fragarach.

  36. spessman September 20, 2014 at 9:27 am -      #36

    how about the parshendi? they have considerable numbers and are much stronger than the average man , able to jump chasms. And grow weapons and armor from their bodiesas well . would they be relevant in this battle?

  37. Malenfant September 20, 2014 at 10:14 am -      #37

    “It may very well not mean that at all; we don’t know. That’s what ambiguous means. Thank you for agreeing.”

    Or it may be the other. Neither of us have any sort of say, but my whole point was there that, based of the circumstances, we atleast know that Ancalagon was rather large, likely large enough to crush an army, or at least deal with them. Which was the reason I first brought him into this match.

    “I posted this already as well. It wasn’t a continent by the way, just part of one.”

    Where did you post it? Anyways, it was still a large landmass.

    “I don’t recall. What’s the quote?”

    It was the passage from the Silmarillion, although I believe I mis-remembered it a bit. It sounds more like a fleet of dragons, although of undefined size.

    “Oh, I don’t know. Do you use that figure of speech to describe debating? It looks like a whole lot of people are doing that, then. Only I don’t wear knickers. The point is we don’t know Ancalagon’s size, and the one thing that people think shows him to be extremely huge does not explicitly demonstrate that at all.”

    I agree that he’s not extremely huge. I’ve seen some people claim that he’s the size of Australia, despite that he would’ve crushed all of Beleriand in his fall. That’s unsupported nonsense. What I think he certainly is, though, is large enough to deal with any mundane forces that the Cosmere can through at him.

  38. Soulerous September 20, 2014 at 10:53 am -      #38

    Where did you post it?
    ~
    Where I argued in the threads I linked, which I assumed you read. Doesn’t matter, I was merely pointing out I know the material surrounding those events.
    ~
    It sounds more like a fleet of dragons, although of undefined size.
    ~
    Yes, here’s the quote: “But he loosed upon his foes the last desperate assault that he had prepared, and out of the pits of Angband there issued the winged dragons, that had not before been seen; and so sudden and ruinous was the onset of that dreadful fleet that the host of the Valar was driven back, for the coming of the dragons was with great thunder, and lightning, and a tempest of fire.” -Page 124.
    ~
    What I think he certainly is, though, is large enough to deal with any mundane forces that the Cosmere can through at him.
    ~
    But still small enough to be matched by a half-elf and giant eagles alongside his fellow dragons: “But Eärendil came, shining with white flame, and about Vingilot were gathered all the great birds of heaven and Thorondor was their captain, and there was battle in the air all the day and through a dark night of doubt. Before the rising of the sun Eärendil slew Ancalagon the Black….” -Page 124.
    ~
    I think he can likely handle a giant eagle at least, but there’s little room for speculation. I’m just saying we know a minuscule amount about him.

  39. Epicazeroth September 20, 2014 at 11:38 am -      #39

    @Soul: “The quantities don’t matter, the truth does.”
    Obviously. But your two threads don’t make it the truth. Plus, your argument is based off the fact that “his ruin” can mean “after he was dead”.

    “It wasn’t a continent by the way, just part of one.”
    Beleriand plus everything North? According to the Atlas of Middle-Earth, that’s at least 750,000 sq m. But it’s pretty decently sized. It’s not the size of Europe or anything, but it’s pretty close. Looking at the full map of First Age Arda, the sunken western coast is well over 2,000 miles; the eastern edge is almost 3,000; with an average distance between of around 500. So from that, a rough low end estimate would be 1.25 million sq m.

    “The point is we don’t know Ancalagon’s size, and the one thing that people think shows him to be extremely huge does not explicitly demonstrate that at all.”
    The other point is that
    1) You clearly don’t understand figures of speech.
    2) Your argument is based off of one possible meaning of “ruin”. But the actual context makes it ridiculous for the sentence to mean anything other than that he broke them.

    “That line can easily mean the towers of Thangorodrim were broken during the time of his ruin or in the place of his ruin, in the same way I can say “he prospered in the nation’s ruin””
    But that’s not what it says. It says “X happened, and Y happened.” If I were to say “Wars broke out all over the world, and weapons manufacturers prospered in its ruin,” that would mean the weapons manufacturers prospered because of the world’s ruin. You have to look at the whole sentence. Also, if you were to be right, that would be the only phrase in the entire chapter that talks about something after the War of Wrath. The entire rest of the chapter is about just the War; is it logical that there’s just one random sentence thrown in that’s not, for no reason?

    About the Host doing it, that means one of two things: they broke it indirectly by throwing Ancalagon on it, or they broke it themselves. So either way, we have casual mountain-range busters.

    “But still small enough to be matched by a half-elf and giant eagles alongside his fellow dragons”
    And, again, look at the context.
    1) The Dragons can fly. So they would be an advantage against the mostly earthbound Maiar. The Dragons were still powerful enough to drive back the Host of the Valar, which up until that point was carving through the rest of Morgoth’s country-spanning army like they weren’t even there.
    2) Eagles can fly. So they can engage the dragons on their own terms. Which is why they can match and counter the Dragons.
    3) Eärendil had a Silmaril. So it’s not surprising he beat Ancalagon. And we don’t know how many Eagles attacked him. It’s entirely possible half of the birds were attacking Ancalagon. But again, Eärendil has a Silmaril, so it’s not like Ancalagon was beaten by some random guy in a boat.
    ===
    @Kala: “Nightblood is not biological, living being; he is sentient. While he might be sentient, he is “alive” in the same way that Shardblades are “alive.””
    1) I didn’t say he’s biological. I said he’s alive. He clearly is self-aware, he’s sentient and sapient. And he fits the Cosmere criteria for being alive – or at least he’s basically the same as everything else that’s alive.
    2) Shardblades are dead. There are like 5 potential living ones, and only 2 have actually become Shardblades. And Nightblood is literally infused with 10,000 lives (or is it only 1,000). How is he not alive? He’s more living than the vast majority of Shardblades.

    “I suppose it comes down to whether if the Investiture in a person is innate or just held makes a difference.”
    1) Breaths are Innate, unless they’re taken. But when in the original person, they’re Innate.
    2) The quote implies that your Innate Investiture is what makes a difference, not how much you’re holding. Otherwise, it would be impossible to Riot somebody with a lot of metal in them.

    “Shardblades/Honorblades were designed to be able to kill the Odiumspren”
    But Honorblades are still far stronger. So we don’t know if Szeth’s feats are reproducible with a dead Shardblade. And certainly not that he has Nightblood.

    “If nothing else, the Cosmere could just feed Nightblood as much Investiture as possible, then launch him into the middle of the Legendarium’s army…”
    Actually, Brandon implied it would be hard to give Shardblades or Nightblood any more Investiture. He said that all things have a limit, and those swords are basically full with their Innate Investiture. You could give them a bit more temporarily, but they’re almost full.

  40. KalaDellexe September 20, 2014 at 3:29 pm -      #40

    “Actually, Brandon implied it would be hard to give Shardblades or Nightblood any more Investiture. He said that all things have a limit, and those swords are basically full with their Innate Investiture. You could give them a bit more temporarily, but they’re almost full.”

    He also said that “Crazy things start to happen if you start feeding Nightblood Investiture.” And, when unsheathed, he is constantly leaking foul Investiture that he’s used up. He may not be able to take a Hemalurgic charge or something like that, but he can definitely absorb more raw Investiture.

    I wonder what would happen if Sauron picked up Nightbood… Oh gosh its horrifying. Cosmere should just hop back through the portal and grab some popcorn.


    “1) I didn’t say he’s biological. I said he’s alive. He clearly is self-aware, he’s sentient and sapient. And he fits the Cosmere criteria for being alive – or at least he’s basically the same as everything else that’s alive.
    2) Shardblades are dead. There are like 5 potential living ones, and only 2 have actually become Shardblades. And Nightblood is literally infused with 10,000 lives (or is it only 1,000). How is he not alive? He’s more living than the vast majority of Shardblades.”

    When Szeth and Kaladin fight, Szeth’s Honorblade clearly impacts Kaladin’s living Shardblade. It doesn’t fade out or become incorporeal like when cutting anything else living, I don’t see why being sentient matters to whether a Shardblade thinks you’re “alive” or not.

    Plus, all the dead Shardblades are alive when they’re summoned. That’s why it takes ten heartbeats to summon one; you have to revive it first.


    “But Honorblades are still far stronger. So we don’t know if Szeth’s feats are reproducible with a dead Shardblade. And certainly not that he has Nightblood.”

    Where is the quote that Honorblades are far stronger? I actually can’t find it right now, but I may be looking in the wrong places. They probably are stronger, sure, but I don’t think it’s that significant. Otherwise it would be more obvious in Szeth fight scenes that he can break through Shardplate more easily with an Honorblade than others can with Shardblades, which it’s not.


    “how about the parshendi? they have considerable numbers and are much stronger than the average man , able to jump chasms. And grow weapons and armor from their bodiesas well . would they be relevant in this battle?”

    Oh yes. The Parshendi are VERY relevant. I can’t wait until we see more “Forms of Power” in book three. Stormform is already pretty awesome.

  41. Epicazeroth September 20, 2014 at 6:59 pm -      #41

    @Kala: “I don’t see why being sentient matters to whether a Shardblade thinks you’re “alive” or not.”
    But that’s not the question here. The question is whether or not Shardblades would be “magic” because if they are, Innate Investiture makes you resistant to them.

    “Where is the quote that Honorblades are far stronger?”
    The wiki. It’s unsourced, so admittedly it may be wrong. But it does make sense, because if the Knights Radiant were all equal to the Heralds, why would they need Heralds at all?

    “Otherwise it would be more obvious in Szeth fight scenes that he can break through Shardplate more easily with an Honorblade than others can with Shardblades, which it’s not.”
    Well, his Honorblade broke Shardplate in two hits. I just assumed that they could take more than 2 hits from Blades. So, basically unfounded.

    However, just look at Dalinar’s fight with Eshonai. I don’t have the book with me, but Szeth broke Plate in two hits. So if Dalinar breaks it in more than two, Honorblades are better.

    “I can’t wait until we see more “Forms of Power” in book three.”
    But what about normal Warform? For now, we just have that and Stormform. What can they do with what they have now?

  42. KalaDellexe September 20, 2014 at 7:42 pm -      #42

    “if Dalinar breaks it in more than two, Honorblades are better.”

    Or Adolin’s duels, but in most Shardbearer duels they mostly only land glancing blows, but because of the way Szeth fights he tends to get either no hits or hard hits. I also recall a scene where Adolin takes a direct hit to his Shardplate helm and someone remarks that that was extremely risky, and that another blow might break it. I’ll try to find it.


    “But what about normal Warform? For now, we just have that and Stormform. What can they do with what they have now?”

    Warform – Natural armour, stronger than humans.

    Stormform – Stronger and faster than Warform, weaker natural armour, ability to call down lightning strikes, ability to summon the Everstorm (with a lot of chanting).

    Mateform isn’t useful.

    Dullform definitely isn’t useful.

    Workform is good for heavy-lifitng, I guess.

    Nimbleform isn’t that useful. I guess they’re a bit faster but weaker?

    The big thing with Parshendi is that there’s hundreds of thousands to millions of them. I need to look up the exact quote, but in Way of Kings Jasnah says something like “there are millions of Voidbringers living in our own homes” or something of that nature.


    “But that’s not the question here. The question is whether or not Shardblades would be “magic” because if they are, Innate Investiture makes you resistant to them.”

    They’re obviously Invested, because it’s difficult to Push on them. My question is if holding Investiture or having Innate Investiture makes a difference in its ability to kill. So far holding a ton of Stormlight makes little to no difference, but we don’t know whether Innate Investiture makes any difference. I don’t think it would make a difference, because you are still Invested.


    “because if the Knights Radiant were all equal to the Heralds, why would they need Heralds at all?”

    Well the Heralds are pretty impressive on their own. The one who-may-or-may-not-be-Taln caught a poison dart the size of a needle in midair. They’re part of the original Oathpact, and were around before the Knights Radiant Orders, too. After the Knights Radiant came around humanity survived through the Desolations, but beforehand only the Heralds fought against the Unmade and the other forces of Odium.

  43. Soulerous September 21, 2014 at 1:33 am -      #43

    But your two threads don’t make it the truth.
    ~
    It being truth is what makes it the truth. We can argue all over again, and a thousand times after that, but unless all other interpretations can be factually ruled out then my conclusion will remain factually correct.
    ~
    Plus, your argument is based off the fact that “his ruin” can mean “after he was dead”.
    ~
    Which it can. That is literally one of the definitions: a state of complete destruction; a state of being ruined; the remaining pieces of something that was destroyed; the state of disintegrating or being destroyed:. It’s a place, time, or event in which things can happen. It’s a noun. Since you feel the need to bring this up again, allow me to use excerpts from The Silmarillion.
    ~
    “But the dawn is brief and the day full often belies its promise; and now the time drew on to the great wars of the powers of the North, when Noldor and Sindar and Men strove against the hosts of Morgoth Bauglir, and went down in ruin.” -Chapter 12, page 49.
    ~
    “There the armies of Morgoth that had passed south into the Vale of Sirion and beleaguered Círdan in the Havens of the Falas came up to their aid, and were caught in their ruin.” -Chapter 13, page 50.
    ~
    “The hearts of the Noldor were high and full of hope, and to many among them it seemed that the words of Fëanor had been Justified, bidding them seek freedom and fair kingdoms in Middle-earth; and indeed there followed after long years of peace, while their swords fenced Beleriand from the ruin of Morgoth, and his power was shut behind his gates.” -Chapter 13, page 54.
    ~
    It is abundantly clear that things can happen “in ruin.” People can do things, actions can take place, in the ruin of something else. I do find it strange that I have to argue that language can be used in a technically correct way.
    ~
    You clearly don’t understand figures of speech.
    ~
    I think what is clear is that I am correct in saying my interpretation is possible while you are baselessly arguing otherwise. I have no problem with figures of speech, and I’d appreciate you foregoing the ad hominem route in favor of something actually constructive.
    ~
    Your argument is based off of one possible meaning of “ruin”. But the actual context makes it ridiculous for the sentence to mean anything other than that he broke them.
    ~
    No, no it does not. If you want this to count for anything you’ll have to somehow provide fact-based cause for why my interpretation is not entirely possible. Using one of the primary definitions for the word “ruin” is not ridiculous in the least. Suggesting that it cannot be used that way is.
    ~
    But that’s not what it says. It says “X happened, and Y happened.”
    ~
    The line is literally “they were broken in his ruin.” So yes, my example was an equivalent, and I’ll quote myself further: “Essentially, the text is saying X happened in X place or time. It is not strictly saying X happened because of X.
    ~
    You have to look at the whole sentence.
    ~
    At more than just the sentence, and I have. Please clarify your point.
    ~
    Also, if you were to be right, that would be the only phrase in the entire chapter that talks about something after the War of Wrath.
    ~
    I’m not sure what you’re saying here, but I’m suspicious that you may have misinterpreted something.
    ~
    About the Host doing it, that means one of two things: they broke it indirectly by throwing Ancalagon on it, or they broke it themselves.
    ~
    Exactly.
    ~
    So either way, we have casual mountain-range busters.
    ~
    No, breaking the peaks of Thangorodrim does not equate to casual mountain-range busting. Personally, I interpreted it as being a concerted effort after Ancalagon was slain, something the Host was eager to do because Thangorodrim had long been a symbol of Morgoth’s dominance. Either way, my aim is not to argue against Middle Earth. It’s to correct false feats for Ancalagon.
    ~
    Eagles can fly. So they can engage the dragons on their own terms. Which is why they can match and counter the Dragons.
    ~
    That’s why I mentioned it in response to Malenfant’s thought of Ancalagon being “large enough to deal with any mundane forces that the Cosmere can through at him.” I don’t know what those mundane forces are, I’m simply offering a balancing thought.

  44. KalaDellexe September 21, 2014 at 3:46 am -      #44

    “As Salinor drew close for a cautious strike to feel out his opponent, Adolin twisted and fell into Ironstance, with his sword held two-handed up beside his head. He slapped away Salinor’s first strike, then stepped in and slammed his Blade down into the man’s helm. Once, twice, three times. Salinor tried to parry, but he was obviously surprised by Adolin’s attack, and two of the blows landed.
    Cracks crawled across Salinor’s helm. Adolin heard grunts accompanying curses as Salinor tried to bring his weapon back to strike. This wasn’t the way it was supposed to go.Where were the test blows, the art, the dance?
    Adolin growled, feeling the old Thrill of battle as he shoved aside Salinor’s attack-careless of the hit it scored on his side-then brought his Blade in two handed and crashed it into his opponent’s breastplate, like he was chopping would. Salinor grunted again and Adolin raised his foot and kicked the man backward, throwing him to the ground.
    Salinor dropped his Blade-a weakness of Flamestance’s one-handed posture-and it vanished to mist. Adolin stepped over the man and dismissed his own blade, then kicked down with a booted heel into Salinor’s helm. The piece of Plate exploded into molten bits, exposing a dazed, panicked face.”
    -Words of Radiance, Page 224.

    So two hits, partially parried, and a kick to completely destroy the helm.

    In the prologue of Way of Kings, Szeth destroys sections of plate with two-Lashing enhanced swings each. While Szeth did break through the Plate in two clean hits using gravity-manipulation to assist him, Adolin breaks through Plate with two hits-one of which may have been partially parried-and a kick. So it’s possible that Honorblades are a bit stronger, but I don’t think they’re so much stronger that it would make a difference in most scenarios.

  45. Epicazeroth September 21, 2014 at 1:38 pm -      #45

    @Soul: “unless all other interpretations can be factually ruled out then my conclusion will remain factually correct.”
    What? That’s not how it works. It’s not like your conclusion is an established fact that we have to find irrefutable proof against to disprove.

    I don’t care what “ruin” means. It matters what “in ruin” means. Coincidentally, several of your quotes have the phrase “in ruin”. And every single one of them is describing something that happened at that time. For example:
    “Men strove against the hosts of Morgoth Bauglir, and went down in ruin.” They went down in ruin at that time. Not later, not because of something else; they went down in ruin as a direct result of their struggle against Morgoth.
    “came up to their aid, and were caught in their ruin” Same thing. They were caught in ruin at that time. They didn’t come up to their aid, win, and then 50 years become caught in ruin. They came up to aid their allies, and as a direct result were caught in ruin.

    “I think what is clear is that I am correct in saying my interpretation is possible while you are baselessly arguing otherwise.”
    But you can’t argue from a possibility. If that were the case, I could argue that all feats for any side I was debating against were invalid because it’s possible the universe they live in is really tiny and the planet they blew up was actually the equivalent of a marble. And since there’s no way to definitively prove that wrong, I would win, correct? But that’s not how it works, so you have to show something to actually be true, not to have a possibility of being true.

    “Suggesting that it cannot be used that way is.”
    I didn’t say “ruin” can’t mean that. I said that the structure of the sentence would cause it to mean something different.

    “I’m not sure what you’re saying here”
    I’m pointing out the style of that chapter. At no point in the chapter does it talk about something that happened after the War. It never says “X happened, and on a related note, something happened there hundreds of years later.

    “It’s to correct false feats for Ancalagon.”
    So you’ve already assumed that he can’t be that large. Isn’t that what you said we shouldn’t do like 5 paragraphs above?

    “No, breaking the peaks of Thangorodrim does not equate to casual mountain-range busting.”
    Actually, they already have the feats to do that. Considering a side effect of them fighting was that the continent sank. And this wasn’t a pitched battle. It’s specifically noted in three different ways that the Host of Valinor absolutely murderstomped Morgoth’s host. So basically, they sank a continent as a side effect of marching across it.
    ===
    @Kala: Well, when Szeth attacks the King of Jah Keved, he picks up a Half-Shard and uses it to defend against a powerful overhead strike from a Blade. It cracks slightly. A minute later, he hits a Half-Shard with his Honorblade, and it shatters completely in two quick hits.

    I actually think the text implies only one blow was parried, and the others landed solidly. Otherwise wouldn’t it have said that the blows were partially parried, instead of that one was parried?

    And that’s a Plate-enhanced kick, right? He’s slamming his foot down while enhanced with armor that enables him to casually kick bodies 30 feet.

  46. KalaDellexe September 21, 2014 at 6:50 pm -      #46

    @Epicazeroth

    Hmm. Well, I guess Honorblades can overcome the Investiture in Half-Shards/Shardplate a more easily, but you have to keep in mind how strong Stormlight makes Szeth, in addition to Lashings making him fall into his swings. He kicks a guy in Shardplate to the floor in the Way of Kings prologue.

    I accept that Honorblades are better at overcoming Investiture than ordinary Shardblades. I still don’t think a person’s innate or held Investiture makes a significant difference in either Blade’s ability to kill, though.

  47. Epicazeroth September 21, 2014 at 8:28 pm -      #47

    @Kala: I guess since the book hasn’t gotten into that yet, we should at least wait until more info comes out. Can we agree that Invested/enchanted objects have resistance to Blades?

    So the bigger question is: could the Shardbearers make a difference? Remember, there are only a couple dozen full Shardbearers, and probably twice as many partial Shardbearers. But there are at least hundreds of thousands of Elves and Maiar who would be wielding magic swords and wearing magic armor, though the extent of the magic is debatable – it’s possible all Elven weapons are Blade-level, but it’s also possible only named characters would have Blade-level swords and the rest would be only half as powerful. But I think they would have to win just by numbers; somebody (either Kaladin or Dalinar) says that he saw a Shardbearer taken down by spearmen who rushed him so I think it’s safe to say thousands of superhuman Elves with magic weapons could beat one.

    “He kicks a guy in Shardplate to the floor in the Way of Kings prologue.”
    Isn’t Gavilar’s Plate already weakened by then? I’m pretty sure I remember Szeth hitting him before that.

  48. Commander Cross September 21, 2014 at 10:50 pm -      #48

    I can’t believe we forgot to ask about this, but if The Black Book of Arda’s unknown if we can include that, and we know we can’t include Alcatraz, is Middle-Earth: Shadow of Mordor allowed for the Middle-Earth Legendarium by chance?

    It’ll make a hell of a difference if that be a yes or no, particularly with how bloody this campaign will get.

    I also rather not be a Major D-Bag for neglecting to ask that question in particular.

    I sense that The Cosmere has a response for Middle-Earth: Shadow of Mordor if that’s a yes, but I’d want to hear the question’s answer before I consider pressing the issue.

    Also, what’s been gained thus far with what’s confirmed to be allowed?

  49. KalaDellexe September 22, 2014 at 12:15 am -      #49

    “Remember, there are only a couple dozen full Shardbearers, and probably twice as many partial Shardbearers.”

    I think there’s around 70-80 full Plate/Blade combinations throughout the world. Alethkar has 20 something, Jah Keved has a bit less, and the other nations combined about the same again. It’s kinda odd there’s so few because weren’t there like 200 full sets dropped in one of Dalinar’s visions? And that was only part of two of the ten Orders.

    “So the bigger question is: could the Shardbearers make a difference?”

    They’d definitely be helpful. Even if they only worked in pair they’d murderstomp most mooks they went up against. Elves might be more problematic, depending on how superhuman elves are.

    I know that some blades are magic (Glamdring, Sting, I-forget-what’s-it’s-called-Aragorn’s-sword, etc.), those ones could probably hold up to a Shardblade for some time, but I don’t recall much about magic armour in the books I’ve read.

    “Isn’t Gavilar’s Plate already weakened by then? I’m pretty sure I remember Szeth hitting him before that.”

    He hit him before that, but he hasn’t shattered any Plate that would restrict Gavilar’s movements or make him significantly lighter (I think it was a small side plate he shattered at this point). It’s very impressive that a guy Szeth’s size kicked a guy in full Plate through a door. Stormlight makes you freaky strong.


    “is Middle-Earth: Shadow of Mordor allowed for the Middle-Earth Legendarium by chance?”

    If it’s a canon part of the Legendarium, yes. If it’s not canon, no. Same limitations as the books, only persons/armies from the main timeline of the story, not from flashbacks.


    OK, before this hits post 50 I’m going to specify that neither side can use above city-busting level attacks. This means that the Cosmere cannot use whatever broke the Shattered Plains apart, and the Legendarium can’t use the island sinking attack.This extends to anything forthcoming from the Cosmere, too. If they find some Investiture-nuke thing in the next book, they can’t use that. If overcharged Nightblood is a island-buster, they can’t overcharge Nightblood, etc.

  50. Soulerous September 22, 2014 at 1:22 am -      #50

    That’s not how it works. It’s not like your conclusion is an established fact that we have to find irrefutable proof against to disprove.
    ~
    That is exactly how it works, actually. My conclusion is that the text is too ambiguous to draw a single interpretation; thus you do have to disprove it. I suppose what you mean to say is that my favored interpretation is not an established fact, and here’s the punch line: Neither is yours. Due to both interpretations being possible, neither one is proven.
    ~
    But you can’t argue from a possibility. If that were the case, I could argue that all feats for any side I was debating against were invalid because it’s possible the universe they live in is really tiny and the planet they blew up was actually the equivalent of a marble. And since there’s no way to definitively prove that wrong, I would win, correct?
    ~
    Incorrect. We use real physics and established defaults as a base. You know this. You couldn’t argue that the universe is really tiny, because that would be changing things from the default and would require proof. Interpreting ambiguous text woks on a whole different principle: the text could mean this or it could mean that. Neither is default. If I cannot argue from a possibility then neither can you. We are in the same position, like it or not. There is absolutely nothing that gives your interpretation precedence over mine, and no, “more people like mine” does not count for anything.
    ~
    At no point in the chapter does it talk about something that happened after the War. It never says “X happened, and on a related note, something happened there hundreds of years later.
    ~
    What are you talking about? Do you think my interpretation involves the breaking of Thangorodrim, or of anything in the text we are discussing, happening much later? It doesn’t. I don’t know where you got that idea. I’ve never made any mention of a time gap like that.
    ~
    I said that the structure of the sentence would cause it to mean something different.
    ~
    You have yet to demonstrate why that is.
    ~
    So you’ve already assumed that he can’t be that large.
    ~
    No I have not assumed that. We don’t know how large he is.
    ~
    Actually, they already have the feats to do that.
    ~
    Obviously. Considering I have mentioned that in every other thread I’ve argued this (of which you’ve seen two), I’d have thought you would know what I was contesting. I said “No, breaking the peaks of Thangorodrim does not equate to casual mountain-range busting.”
    ~
    That was in reply to your paragraph: “About the Host doing it, that means one of two things: they broke it indirectly by throwing Ancalagon on it, or they broke it themselves. So either way, we have casual mountain-range busters.”
    ~
    I think you can see why I assumed you were talking about the breaking of Thangorodrim being the feat.
    ~
    I am seeing a lack of understanding in regards to what I am actually arguing, so I suggest reading post #34 just to make certain we’re on the same page.

  51. Zazax September 22, 2014 at 3:35 am -      #51

    “and the Legendarium can’t use the island sinking attack.”
    They already can’t. Illuvatar was the one behind that, and he’s already banned.

  52. Numinous One September 22, 2014 at 5:12 am -      #52

    “They already can’t. Illuvatar was the one behind that, and he’s already banned.”

    I think that’s in reference to the Host of Valinor sinking at the very least a large country or continent during the War of Wrath.

    It’s also not so much an attack as just collateral damage of them waging a full scale war.

  53. Zazax September 22, 2014 at 7:02 am -      #53

    “I think that’s in reference to the Host of Valinor sinking at the very least a large country or continent during the War of Wrath.”
    I was under the impression they were talking about the sinking of Numenor, since they mentioned Sauron ‘surviving’ it (for a given value of ‘survive’, I suppose), but that’s also possible.
    But even still, destroying Beleriand involved all of the Valar, who are also already banned, so same difference, I guess?

  54. Epicazeroth September 22, 2014 at 11:33 am -      #54

    @Kala: “If it’s a canon part of the Legendarium, yes.”
    That’s the problem. There’s no established Tolkien canon. Actually, I think FP’s consensus contradicts Christopher Tolkien’s view on it.

    “neither side can use above city-busting level attacks”
    So it’s a contest of numbers now. Tolkien stomps. Each Maia is likely city level. Even First Age mooks are close to Shardbearer level.
    ===
    @Soul: “no, “more people like mine” does not count for anything.”
    I’m not saying that. However, it is true that more people have, when arguing this topic, come to my conclusion than have come to yours.

    “I don’t know where you got that idea. ”
    From you saying that “in his ruin” could mean “in the place he was ruined”.
    ===
    @Zazax: “destroying Beleriand involved all of the Valar”
    Except it involved none. Because they weren’t there. The Maiar and Elves did it by marching through Morgoth’s army.
    ===
    So the Maiar can only spam city-busting attacks now. But that’s easy for them so they can still destroy the Cosmere forces easily. So Tolkien stomps.

  55. Soulerous September 22, 2014 at 11:51 am -      #55

    From you saying that “in his ruin” could mean “in the place he was ruined”.
    ~
    Which, of course, is not a statement that it happened much later. I believe it happened immediately after, because Ancalagon was the last (major?) obstacle in the way of destroying the long-standing symbol of Morgoth’s dominance.
    ~
    However, it is true that more people have, when arguing this topic, come to my conclusion than have come to yours.
    ~
    I disagree. Everyone I have had this conversation with has conceded to my point. Probably because there is no viable alternative.

  56. Soulerous September 22, 2014 at 12:22 pm -      #56

    @KalaDellexe – “If it’s a canon part of the Legendarium, yes. If it’s not canon, no.
    ~
    It’s a game published by Warner Bros. Works canonical to the Middle-Earth Legendarium are limited to those written by J.R.R. Tolkien. The rest is essentially fan-fiction, even when it’s written by professionals, because none of them own it. However, since that leaves relatively little to work with considering the size of the story and lore, match specifications are sometimes expanded to include the Peter Jackson films and even various video games. Typically not, but it happens. Whether you want that here is up to you.

  57. Epicazeroth September 22, 2014 at 2:52 pm -      #57

    @Soul: “Probably because there is no viable alternative.”
    Clearly…

    “I believe it happened immediately after”
    Except “in his ruin” doesn’t signify that it happened sometime after due to an unrelated cause. “his ruin” is not a time frame or a place; it’s an event.

  58. Commander Cross September 22, 2014 at 3:32 pm -      #58

    @Soulerous at #56

    For now until further notice, it’s best if we wait until the game gets released before we return to that matter, like about a page or so from now.
    I can’t remember when this year it’ll be released though, either.

    There may be a lot about that game(other than it taking place between The Hobbit and The Lord of The Rings) that may be worth discussing, there might not be enough, but we won’t know for sure until it’s released.

    ___

    Anyway, How many beings in the Cosmere that aren’t barred can fight The Balrogs of Middle-Earth?
    Those things are NASTY pieces of work to say the least, if Gandalf/Olorin may testify to that.

  59. Epicazeroth September 22, 2014 at 5:36 pm -      #59

    @Cross: Elantrians, Shardbearers, full Feruchemists, Mistborn, or Compounders could fight Balrgos. Though probably only Radiants or Elantrians would have any chance of beating one solo. They’d have to get close though – closer than the Balrog’s whip, sword, and fire would easily allow for. Considering it takes top-tier First Age Elves renowned for their skill and power to stalemate Balrogs, I’d say a normal Shardbearer couldn’t defeat one solo. Szeth, Kaladin, or Shallan might be able to; The Lord Ruler or Vasher too.

    Though, Gandalf vs Durin’s Bane destroyed a mountain top and could be seen for hundreds of miles, so… Probably they’d want to double-team it. Or send a team of Shardbearers.
    ===
    That’s one advantage the Cosmere has: it has more high-tier guys (compared to named Tolkien cahracters). The problem is that each First Age Elf is like 50% of a Shardbearer, and the Maiar can still spam city-busters.

  60. Numinous One September 23, 2014 at 1:34 am -      #60

    Do the Maiar even need to actively fight? With the amount and scale of elemental manipulation they bring, they could literally turn large parts of the planet hostile, pretty much wherever Cosmere’s forces are based.

  61. Soulerous September 23, 2014 at 4:13 am -      #61

    Except “in his ruin” doesn’t signify that it happened sometime after due to an unrelated cause. “his ruin” is not a time frame or a place; it’s an event.
    ~
    Firstly, an event is a time frame; time is measured and communicated through events, whether they be seconds, days, ages, or things falling or being ruined; these all give us a frame of reference for time.
    ~
    Secondly, of course “in his ruin” can signify a place. That’s a correct usage of the word, contradicted by nothing in the quote. I favor the time interpretation, but this is valid too. You cannot say ‘it doesn’t signify this, it’s not a place or time’ when those are technically correct interpretations.
    ~
    Thirdly, saying the cause is unrelated doesn’t even make sense. It’s a compound sentence, meaning it has more than one independent clause. It’s about more than just Ancalagon simply by virtue of other things being mentioned. Saying the cause is unrelated to something else in the sentence doesn’t matter. It’s clearly related to something.
    ~
    Clearly…
    ~
    Quite.

  62. KalaDellexe September 23, 2014 at 2:53 pm -      #62

    “Do the Maiar even need to actively fight? With the amount and scale of elemental manipulation they bring, they could literally turn large parts of the planet hostile, pretty much wherever Cosmere’s forces are based.”

    Seriously though, what exactly can a Maiar do? How long does it take for them to use this attack? What cost does it have? Details?


    “The problem is that each First Age Elf is like 50% of a Shardbearer”

    What are their capabilities? Speed/agility feats? How many are there, in terms of numbers?

    And TLR, Hoid, and the Inquisitors/Mistborn are going to have a field day against them as they wear metal armor.


    Maybe I should have listened to Epic(?)’s advice and said no Maiar… If they’re really this high tier then they kinda fall under the god category I was trying to ban. Huh.

  63. Numinous One September 23, 2014 at 7:29 pm -      #63

    “Seriously though, what exactly can a Maiar do? How long does it take for them to use this attack? What cost does it have? Details?”

    It’s not an attack, it’s just their thing, sort of.
    The Maiar helped to shape the world, the Valar likely did most of the legwork.
    Tolkien never went into too much detail, but we know Maiar accociate with certain Valar and so specialize in that Vala’s domain.
    Ossë was capable of creating a storm out in the oceans that kept back Ulmo momentarily, Ulmo basically being the God of the seas.
    There are Maiar who helped Aulë create mountains, open valleys, pretty much shaping the earth.

    Might be quicker to just provide a link to the lotr wiki.
    lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Maiar
    The wiki doesn’t go into too much detail either and I’ve no idea where my copy of the Silmarillion is, so hopefully someone can provide what few feats the Maiar have. Only a few Maiar were named, though they are supposed to number in the hundreds.

    Briefly reading through that brought to mind some that I’d forgotten about though, Arien and Tilion, who guides the Sun and Moon respectively.
    Ungoliant giant devouring spider who eats light and spews impenetrable darkness called Unlight, using Unlight, Ungoliant and Melkor pretty much infiltrated the home of the Valar, which is saying something since Manwe can see everything in the world and Varda I believe can hear everything.
    Melian was able to create a ward around her realm that kept evil at bay, Melkor was unable to penetrate it.

    “Maybe I should have listened to Epic(?)’s advice and said no Maiar… If they’re really this high tier then they kinda fall under the god category I was trying to ban. Huh.”

    Yeah pretty much.
    Everyone focuses on the Valar, while the Maiar are weaker, they far outnumber the Valar.
    Then there’s the powergap between Melkor and everyone else, what with him lolnoping the combined efforts of the Valar and Maiar until Tulkas came and tipped the scales.

    EDIT: I just remembered we had Link fight him too.

  64. Epicazeroth September 23, 2014 at 7:39 pm -      #64

    @Soul: I’ll drop it (for this thread) because in this case, the Maiar can do it anyway if Ancalagon can’t.
    ===
    @Kala: “Seriously though, what exactly can a Maiar do? How long does it take for them to use this attack? What cost does it have? Details?”
    1) Reality-warping essentially. Obviously the effects vary, though we know some are better at certain things than others (Olorin is good at fire; Curunir is good at making stuff; Eonwe has more raw power). Technically, they’re changing the song of Creation; I think singing an actual song can help them focus their power. Elves can do all that to a lesser extent.
    2) When limited like the Istari were, it only takes as long as their bodies can react. Otherwise, there;s never really a time frame given, though I’m pretty sure it’s basically instant.
    3) No cost.

    “What are their capabilities?”
    A few tens of thousand can destroy armies of hundreds of thousands. Several slew Balrgos; Feanor notably fought all seven Balrogs and basically stalemated them.
    Fingolfin fought Morgoth. Probably a speed/agility feat as well, cause he dodged Grond which was causing craters so deep magma came up from them.
    First Age Men – and possibly Numenoreans – can duplicate First Age Elf feats, though it’s rarer.

    “How many are there, in terms of numbers?”
    Composite Sil timeline? At minimum hundreds of thousands from the First Age alone.

    “And TLR, Hoid, and the Inquisitors/Mistborn are going to have a field day against them as they wear metal armor.”
    Haven’t we not seen any magic from Hoid? And the armor might be enchanted or Mithril, so either would be immune. Also, that’s 22 people. Normal Mistborn wouldn’t be able to reliably Push more than one person. TLR might, but he’d likely be busy with the more magical higher-ups.

    But after noticing that magic stuff can’t be Pushed, they’d start using magic armor.
    ===
    I don’t have any strength feats atm, so I’ll have to let others take that for now; I’ll look in the Sil to find some.

    Also, I’m curious where the Maiar city-busting actually comes from. Gandalf broke at least a mountaintop with collateral damage and Saruman caused a huge avalanche, but aside from power-scaling are there some Maiar feats I don’t know about?

    And if SoM is allowed for this, wouldn’t WitN, LotRO, and BfME be allowed as well?

  65. Epicazeroth September 23, 2014 at 7:45 pm -      #65

    @Numinous: If you know generally where in the Sil the feats for them are, I can look them up. I just don’t want to have to read the whole thing.

    Oh yeah. Couldn’t Arien just sorta stand next to the Cosmere army and blind them all? Considering even other Ainur can’t look at her…
    ===
    And it’s possibly a strength feat for either the Maiar or the materials they build with. I’m pretty sure I remember seeing something say Tulkas’ strength was continent-level, or that carrying the Sun and Moon put him there so if the boat can support that and the Maiar can steer it…

  66. KalaDellexe September 23, 2014 at 8:38 pm -      #66

    “Haven’t we not seen any magic from Hoid?”

    He uses Feruchemy, Allomancy, has Breath, and possibly has an Awakened sword. He can also create illusions.

    ” And the armor might be enchanted or Mithril, so either would be immune.”

    Why would Mithril be immune? And more to the point, how much Mithril do they have? As I understand it, it’s very rare and hard to refine, so I doubt they’d use it for the common mook’s armour and weaponry. How much enchanted stuff do they have/how enchanted is it?


    ” Also, that’s 22 people.”

    Vin
    The Lord Ruler
    Hoid
    Kelsier
    Elend
    Gammel
    Shan
    Bendal
    Marsh
    Zane
    Spook, the Lord Mistborn
    A couple random Mistborn assassins.
    The eight or so Inquisitors Marsh kills at the end of TFE.
    The thirteen Inquisitors Vin fights at the end of HOA. (Maybe twelve if Marsh was one, I can’t recall if he was included in those thirteen or not.
    The few Inquisitors Vin and Elend kill in between WOA and HOA.
    All the other Inquisitors they can make out of the thousands of Mistings available…
    A lot more than 22. Two are Fullborn, one is pretty much Fullborn for the basic metals, but not the higher metals, and the others are either full Mistborn or able to use all the basic metals.


    ” Normal Mistborn wouldn’t be able to reliably Push more than one person.”

    Vin has that feat where she sends horsemen (horses included) flying backwards. Either she or Elend also Push Koloss backwards in a ring around them in one HoA scene I think. Kelsier Pushes soldiers around by their armour in TFE.


    Huh, Maiar are really quite OP. They’re pretty much mini-Shards.

  67. Epicazeroth September 23, 2014 at 8:58 pm -      #67

    @Kala: “He uses Feruchemy, Allomancy, has Breath, and possibly has an Awakened sword. He can also create illusions.”
    When does he use a Metallic Art or Awakening?

    “the others are either full Mistborn or able to use all the basic metals.”
    But Mistborn aren’t powerful enough to Push more than one person. Whereas First Age named Elves are possibly island-level.

  68. KalaDellexe September 23, 2014 at 9:28 pm -      #68

    “But Mistborn aren’t powerful enough to Push more than one person.”

    Kelsier sending guys flying backward… Vin sending horsemen and horses flying backward… Mistborn are definitely powerful enough to Push more than one person at a time.


    “When does he use a Metallic Art or Awakening?”

    At the end of WoR-when he’s waiting and just randomly talking-he mentions that it’s much easier to play music now that he has perfect pitch, which is an effect of having more than 200 Breath, and he has already been to Nalthis at this point in the Cosmere timeline.

    Metallic arts:
    “Mike Cockrum
    Hoid is regularly around when important events take place. How does he know where to go?
    Brandon Sanderson
    He uses Feruchemy. Part of it that will show up in later books.”
    theoryland.com/intvsresults.php?kw=hoid+feruchemy

    “Herowannabe

    Would you answer if Hoid used it for Feruchemy?
    Brandon Sanderson

    His bead? Hoid’s bead was—He originally got it because he wanted to be an Allomancer.”
    theoryland.com/intvsresults.php?kw=hoid+allomancer

    At the very least, he has another bead of Lerasium in his possession, because it’s confirmed he took it, but it’s not confirmed that he used it to become an Allomancer. It’s suggested that he has Allomancy, because he puts powder into his drink in WoR, but he might not have used the bead to gain it.


    He can also enter the Cognitive realm at will, so he can teleport around pretty easily.

  69. Turtle Commando September 24, 2014 at 1:44 am -      #69

    I know I’ve lurked for far too long most people wouldn’t even know me anymore. Life is kind of busy you know? SO I have time for a super post and I will make everything I need to said now. I’ll probably be active for another week, maybe two. Uh, I know it’s super late, but I’m glad the site is still functioning and Admin made it out okay.
    Lots of memories here, you played a big part in my later teen, early twenties.
    But I had to comment on this.

    OHMYGAWD SANDERSON.
    I love the Stormlight Archives. Great stuff. Truly. On par with Wheel of Time. Or better, depending on how much you value a different kind of world in the book you read.

    As for the debate:

    IMHO I believe that the Cosmere DEFINITELY has an advantage over later era Legendarium. However, as far as heavy hitters go, the Legendarium has more available when using the early (Now I know I am being loose I forgot which name was which while wading through the mire of unfamiliar terms) God Beings of the Legendarium. HOWEVER, if the shardblades can still kill the early era soldiers StormArch warriors could place their sharbearers there and commit the parshendi in stormform along with the full shardbearers(Plate and blade)

    Combine this along with the fact that there are new surgebinders emerging at the end of Words of Radiance there are now a multitude of potential shardbearers in the making. NOW, even if you disregard future potential of the shardbearing/knight radiant peoples THEY DO NATURALLY consume stormlight which boosts their fighting prowess and increases their healing speed adding more elite soldiers to the ranks of the SA/cosmere universe.

    I apologize. I really don’t remember much, if I even knew anything about the rest of the books of the Cosmere and Legendarium.

    SO, in summation. People, don’t forget the massive amounts of surgebinders that have emerged in the battle against the voidbringers at the end of Words of Radiance.

    Good to see you Cross and Soulerous. Glad to see you are still on the site.

    Also, please visit the topia, and check out my preview if you remember my book The Academy that I was writing? Well, I completely scrapped the concept and have now finished a new book that I find to be quite good if I do say so myself.

    That’s my spiel i’ll come back this week hopefully. If I don’t get mugged or something.

  70. Turtle Commando September 24, 2014 at 1:56 am -      #70

    Oh yeah, it’s called The Iron Lens

  71. Commander Cross September 24, 2014 at 2:44 am -      #71

    @Turtle Commando at #70

    I pray that I will always be able to prove myself a man of my word, and nothing less than that.

    It’s my fault this family still feels hell-bent at killing each other, so the best thing I ought to do is Nut up accordingly and start firing as many times as it takes until it stops.

    ___

    This fight is proving more interesting by the day, and we’re not even on another page yet.

  72. Turtle Commando September 24, 2014 at 3:09 am -      #72

    @ Cross

    Agreed. The reason I took the time to actually post on this one was because it was the first one in a very long time that I actually found VERY interesting.

    I would love to throw my love and fandom at the Cosmere, but I honestly don’t have any good ideas as to the line real line ups yet. Could anybody be troubled to give a recap as to the forces on each side? and a generic abilities margin? None of the stuff being actively debated though. Just the stuff both sides agree on for sure.

  73. KalaDellexe September 24, 2014 at 3:17 am -      #73

    “This fight is proving more interesting by the day, and we’re not even on another page yet.”

    I like it. I seriously screwed up understimating the godliness of Maiar, but other than that I think this is a pretty cool match (definitely not biased). Who knows? Cosmere might have the ability to deal with – or at least match – the Maiar by the next Stormlight book or two. Maybe unsheathing Nightblood during a Highstorm or Everstorm makes horrible things happen for everyone.

    This match will persist for a while, I bet, since every time a new Cosmere book or WoB comes out it has the potential to alter the match. I should also have specified no far-future stuff for Cosmere, since the 1980’s era Mistborn trilogy would probably stomp Legendarium by itself and future Mistborn would just destroy Arda from orbit. I guess that won’t happen for about 15 years and no one will care about this match anymore by then. Then again, MC V Vader has certainly picked back up, so who knows? Maybe this match could persist.

    Oh yeah, Cosmere has FTL-capable space ships. They’re featless-other than being FTL-but they exist.

  74. Commander Cross September 24, 2014 at 3:24 am -      #74

    @Turtle Commando at #72

    Well, I did ask around in regards to whether or not Middle-Earth: Shadows of Mordor’s allowed to be part of Side B, and I agree to let it wait until the game arrives and I sense the more The Cosmere continues to expand, the more likelier Side B will have to at least be noted on Middle-Earth: SoM has to offer before returning to that matter at least 1 or 2 pages from now.

    I also mentioned something about The Balrogs of Middle-Earth as well and whether or not The Cosmere has enough counters to fight Balrogs with, but beyond that, I don’t think I’ve mentioned much else as of yet.

    I do hope this is like a more universal version of the Fights from Red vs Blue, from Season 08 of the series onward for a lot of reasons.

  75. Turtle Commando September 24, 2014 at 3:39 am -      #75

    @ Cross

    I won’t dispute that the Balrogs could cause a lot of damage. However, it is all in how they are unleashed. If they cause damage before the counters show up it could change the factor on how the war was waged. So in the end I suppose we will just need to create a little power tier and rack and stack how much each universe can fit within each tier.

    As for SoM I actually approve of adding in the content that it has. So long as the content is accepted as canon. BTW, I was playing Battle for Middle Earth II recently. It somehow managed to get me so locked into the mindset for victory patterns in that game I have been ruined when it comes to any other RTS. HAha.

  76. Commander Cross September 24, 2014 at 3:48 am -      #76

    @Turtle Commando at #75

    So at the end of the day, we also gotta factor in how quickly does either side want a war like this to end, and whether or not they’ll ever find a right time to fire their Big Guns rather than doing so at the wrong times.

    Fair enough, Await the contents first and figure how they’d fit in with the Legendarium aside from chronological events and whatnot, that can be done.
    Will I ever be able to play any of the more ‘Proper’ RTS games worth listing out?
    I’ve no idea.

  77. Soulerous September 24, 2014 at 7:04 am -      #77

    Whoa, Turtle Commando. Certainly nice to see you.

  78. Turtle Commando September 24, 2014 at 11:09 am -      #78

    @ Soulerous

    Yup. Been a long time, been a long time. Been a long LONELY LONELY LONELY LONELY TIIIIIIME. (Kudos if you got the reference)

    Yeah, I’ve just been stuck in a combination of not being useful to any debates and life keeping me complicated so I’ve really just been lurking in the back for a while.

  79. Commander Cross September 24, 2014 at 11:30 am -      #79

    @Turtle Commando on #78

    Is that Led Zeppelin by chance!? O___O

    Anyway, I’d know enough about Middle-Earth during the time of The Hobbit to LOTR or at least the basics in terms of fighting forces, I could look up the armies if need be should anyone ask it out.

    Anything earlier than that for Middle-Earth and I got blank, and do keep in mind I didn’t pick a side in this matter.

    Also that Gandalf is an Expy of High King Odin, so it has to count for something.

  80. Turtle Commando September 24, 2014 at 10:04 pm -      #80

    @ Cross
    The only answer I can give is that my love for “Classic rock” is undying.

    But yeah. I can do stuff for the Way of Kings/Words of Radiance. Other than that, while I kind of know the stuff about the other books. It’s really only from passing knowledge or from people giving synopses.

  81. Commander Cross September 24, 2014 at 10:09 pm -      #81

    @Turtle Commando at #80

    Do The Cosmere have enough counters-by-numbers or Weapons to go fight the Maiar with, at the moment?
    All I’d know is they have The Lord Ruler, guys like Marsh after the first classic Mistborn novel onward, and they have Vin, but anyone else who can do this eludes me, especially when Gandalf vs The Lord Ruler could be fun to watch.

  82. Numinous One September 25, 2014 at 6:15 am -      #82

    www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?b=18555
    Alright, so I know this site does some rather questionable calcs at times, but I stumbled across this and got abit curious.

    “If you know generally where in the Sil the feats for them are, I can look them up. I just don’t want to have to read the whole thing.”

    I am honestly drawing a blank, I’ll try remember some feats.
    Ossë’s storms were during the shaping of the world when he briefly aided Melkor, he also moved Numenor and Tol Eressea.
    He also rooted them into place, so it shouldn’t be hard at all to you know, let them or cause them, to sink.

    Galadriel personally destroyed the walls of Dol Guldur and laid it all bare and her ring Nenya provided protection that only Sauron or better could overcome.

    Uncounted millions of orc fodder, trolls, wargs, werewolves, shapeshifters, vampires, wingless drakes that engaged the Host for 42 years before the War of Wrath came to an end.
    Considering the showings of how easily Elves fresh from Aman steamroll all things bad, they would need alot to slow down the largest Elven army, with Maiar backing.

    Too tired to think of anything more, you really need to dig for Tolkien feats.

  83. Epicazeroth September 25, 2014 at 10:10 am -      #83

    Well, the Dagor Bragollach says Glaurung personally destroyed/burned thousands – likely in the tens of thousands – of square miles of land.

    Morgoth climbing up from Angband was “like thunder” implying that Fingolfin could hear him walking from miles above him.

    Then Grond, which made pits so deep that they vented “smoke and fire.” Plus, canon implication that Morgoth is actually gigantic. Aside from his foot being “like a fallen hill,” his blood filled all of the pits Grond made. And he’s big enough that Thorondor can cut him with his talons without crushing him.

    Lastly, aside from the unquantifiable stuff that Sauron can do (I may post that later) he was able to make all the defenders of Minas Tirith (the first one) afraid just by arriving, such that they all fled in fear. Notably, his power was able to twist that land which was stated to have Ulmo’s power in it.

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